project research society gang historical

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INTERVIEW WITH DRACAN TMR (The Master Race) Mafia

and Graffiti Artist Crews

18 year old Euro-American

Interviewed by Kate Cavett Hand in Hand

Dustin Reichert Metropolitan State University Intern

Interviewed July 5, 1997 Powderhorn Park

and The Bomb Shelter, a legal graffiti wall in Minneapolis

KC: What name can I use? 0: Dracan KC: Can you spell that for me? 0: D-r-a-c-a-n KC: Dracan, when did you first become aware of gangs? 0: Umm .. probably five years ago, yeah five. KC: So, you were about 13? 39.51 0: 12 or 13 yeah. KC: What was your first awareness of gangs? 0: Like the first time I seen 'em? .... probably like 8, and a whole bunch of kids like

took my bike, probably yea KC: Tell me about your current involvement with gangs, or crews, or groups, I'm not

sure what name you use. 40.31 0: Umm - well I go out with the, I wouldn't say gang like the Crew, probably two

times a week and we do anything from like try to find somebody that did somethin to one of the kids from our group ta helpin these kids get their little drugs or whatever -- if we can make money somethin to do that, otherwise defense against somebody else.

KC: Were is your crew located? What city and region? 0: Urn ... we probably got about 50 Minneapolis members or so, not exactly 50 and

about 15 or so in St. Paul. KC: What's the name of your crew?

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D: TMR Mafia. KC: Now is the TMR Mafia affiliated with a taggar crew or a muralist crew? D: Ahh .. not really .. kinda, ahh there's like three, four ... four kids in there that ahh

do graffiti murals, whatever. KC: What are the age ranges of the TMR Mafia and what are the cultural

backgrounds? 42.25 D: Probably 14 to about .. ah, I'd say 191 think -- maybe -- no 20, and then there's-

well actually -- well there's one cat that's, I think, 29, so I guess you could say about 14 to 29.

KC: And what are the cultural? D: Urn ... lot's of white kids, let's see Brazilian, African American, like one Mexican

kid ... Urn, I'd say about 60 percent white to 40 percent minority, or so. KC: How did you get involved with them? 43.34 D: Well ... we were down with a couple kids around this neighborhood that were

Raymond Avenue Crips, and ah -- they -- he had just got like, I guess, some rank, which means like he moved up in it, so it was like yeah I need to start ah his own little set or his own little, or he needs to have his own little block to run, so it was like since we were his closest friends, it was like yeah you guys wanna start it with me? So we just came up with the name TMR and just really all we did was like sell nickels and dime bags of weed on the corner and it was only about 6 members or so, and it just --like one kid'il come around - uOh yeah, I want in -- how do you get in?" And than you know it just grows and grows on ya.

KC: What does TMR stand for? D: Ah -- The Master Race is what it started out to stand for and they got all kinds of

little, ya know ... changed it. They look in the dictionary for big words and stuff .. but, yeah.

KC: So, now if it was originally a Raymond Avenue Crip, that traditionally is a black gang. Was this kid a black kid?

D: Yeah, the kid that got some rank was urn Caucasian and the other kid, one of the other founders, he was mixed.

KC: So, does The Master Race refer to Caucasian? 45.24 D: No actually it came out of ,ah, one of the graffiti books cause we all, all three of

us done graffiti and it was ah, like a little writing and it said ah, this was for the master race of all graffiti artists, vandalists and ah, some stupid junkies --- I don't remember what it said exactly and somethin else and we were like - Yeah, a master race man, we are the master race of this neighborhood. So, it came out of that and we were like - Yeah - I like that. But, we didn't wanna say the master race just cuz how people say - Oh yeah you guys are Aryans when it's just me around or me and my friend who are pretty light skinned, so we just decided to

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go with TMR, threw mafia on there jus to, probably make it sound a little more tough, or whatever-- TMR Mafia - that's where it came outta.

KG: That's cool-I always loved the evolution of names. So, now are you affiliated with Raymond Avenue Grips?

46.42 D: Umm, I still hang out with like about three of em or so, but I'm not like in with

them or anything like that. I don't really go out and steal cars or any of that silly crime anymore.

KG: So, what activities - I mean it sounds like TMR still sells some weed? D: Yeah, umm, well not as much of the little stuff anymore, now it's more like

(unclear) and ah -- a couple other drugs. KG: So the TMR Mafia are into a traditional drug business, so I mean whatever they

need to sell to make money? So, they're just drug dealers. D: Well .. KG: Not you, but the rest of them. 47.41 D: Yeah, basically they also, ah ... sell a couple of stolen goods. KG: What? They do some robberies and they sell stolen goods. D: I didn't say anything about robberies. KG: Oh .. Okay ... so they just fence things. D: Yeah ... somethin like that. KG: So is there a core group with TMR or is it pretty much all 50 hang out and

participate in all of the activities? D: Ah, I don't understand what you mean -- core group. KG: Well, sometimes there may be five or ten, kind of like the six that just started the

TMR. There's a core group that does most of the activities and gets in most of the money and throws most of the parties and then a whole bunch of other people hang around and sometimes participate and sometimes don't.

48.41 D: Well, when we go over to R-doc house, I see most all of em there at times, but

no, it's like there's a like core group you could say there's like a couple of different groups -- there's one that hangs out on some St. Paul side, Longfellow neighborhood side and then ah one more over, I don't know what neighborhood it is, kinda by the Falls area in tha' good neighborhood over there. So there's kinda three and then there's kinda a couple cats that just kinda go from group to group, they'll pop up wherever every couple of days. Or, sometimes they're not even around, doin their own thing or whatever.

KG: What do you like about be affiliated with TMR? D: Well, it's probably the insurance ya know, if somethin happens to me, ya know,

or like I can be able to have the backup or I can, ya know, cuz I'm always there ta back them up, ya know -- if somthin happens to somebody, somebody lookin for em, I don't know, it's the insurance.

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KC: You need the insurance because of activities that you do, or because of where live or because -- why is it that you feel that you need the insurance?

50.25 D:

KC: D: KC:

Well there's lots of people ya know that want to get me for this or this or it's reason like, ya know, somebody steals my little sisters bike, ya know, there's lots of reasons ya know and then it's always the action ya know, like - Eh yeah somebody got big Mike's stuff an ya roll up on em ya know, and it's the action ya know, ya know ta go do somethin like that. Is there a rush when you get to be involved in the action? Yeah, definitely -- I don't know, it's just ah - yeah something One of the things that we're finding, and I know you've had some exposure to the concept of dependency, is that kids areable to talk about the fact it's like an addictive quality being involved in a gang, in the rush and that that's harder to leave sometimes than the drugs itself - it's the excitement of being involved - do you find that?

D: Huh, ya have to speak up a little bit more KC: That there's an addictive quality to being involved in a gang, that the draw to the

gang is harder to leave sometimes than even drugs itself. That, you get real addicted to the rush and the power affiliated with the gang.

52.06 D:

KC:

52.41

Yeah, urn like I can't really leave, I don't know, so I must be a drug or a gang addict, I don't know, whatever you want to call it. Addicted. Well, sometimes it's useful to name it. Can you tell me a story about the most exciting night that you ever had hanging out with TMR?

D: Most exciting night, well .... yeah, I guess like there was one time we jus, me Ardoc and Stelo we jus were, we went out to a party with some girls and ah we had left those girls 'cuz we met up with some other girls, so we were jus like we gonna get a ride home without you guys, and so they went ahead and left and it was probably like three in the mornin', and so ah, so we couldn't, we didn't have a ride home cuz the other girls were like -- Oh well we jus' decided we're gonna stay here - and we walkin around for like five minutes an like oh hey can we get a ride and like it wasn't lookin too good so ah we ah went to the garage and we stole a couple a screwdrivers and then, so we each had a screwdriver, there was three of us and then we jus -- it was like a huge parkin lot, an apartment complex and then we jus went out in the parkin lot and then we jus', we're like alright we jus all gonna split up and go getta ride. So, we each went to a different car and tried ta getta ride and then we got one, so I'm like naw that's not a very good one then we jus were like -let's try to get that one over there 'cuz it was nicer, I wanna tell you what it is. And, so we took that one and another one and once we got it started we found out that it was a police car, or a police officers, I've already been convicted of this, so it was a police officers

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Blazer an in the back it had one of those little siren things, so we clowned with that a little bit. So, we jus got to zip around real fast, and umm .. that was probably ... that was exciting, I don't know .. probably not the most exciting.

KC: Sounds like power, being able to zip around in an officer's car. Then you got stopped and arrested for it?

55.04 D: No, actually .. Ah .. We made it home real fine that evenin'. umm ... it was jus that

one of the people at the party, like they came to interview the lady found out like at 6:00 in the mornin the party was still goin so she came in ta try and figure it out maybe if she could find somethin she'd call, I guess .. a couple more of the girls was there and she was pretty drunk and she was like she told us she was like Ah don't go steal a car 'cuz it was her friend who was havin the party so she was like "Oh .. I know who did it, I know who did it" and then jus rattled off our names the whole deal, the whole address and then they came to the house and we had parked like three blocks away and it was all clear and went in and then the next morning they're like" yeah ... are you blah, blah, blah" come and said the name and everything and then ah .. took my friend away and then ah .. he's like who were the rest of them, were they any of them cats with you at the house? And he didn't tell and then they went back to that girl and she told it was me and him and then my probation officer put a warrant out for my arrest and then brought me in. It wasn't like two more days though.

KC: What happened to you then? 56.25 D: Ah ... went to JC for a couple of days and then ah I gotta ... or I went for a day

went to court and then was detained for a couple more days and then I was released for a later court date. I think I got a home monitoring ankle bracelet that time .. But that only .. That was like 2 weeks, so it was like a little groundin', but I ah, I still was sellin' drugs outta my house so it was kinda a joke to me 'cuz like I could go anywhere in the apartment and people would always come over they never checked on me, even one time, so it was jus a joke.

KC: I hear a lot of that. That's one of the things that is useful to let people know how

D: little probation works. You know, in deterring kids. Does TMR carry weapons. Yeah .. Like ah, let's see the majority of everybody has got at least a knife. Seadog, he always gots, he always got the gun wid em like always. And then a couple other members that jus, that like got a gun in a shoe box under the bed or somethin' somewhere got it, ready to use.

KC: Do the members of TMR use their weapons very often? 58.19 D: Naw, they don't shoot that much. One of the members was, got stabbed like a

few weeks back and then ah had retaliated but we didn't stab the kid, they jus' got like baseball bats and sticks and stuff and jus beat that dude, he like had, like teeth broken out and stuff.


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KC: Was he hospitalized? D: Ah .. the other member was hospitalized, I don't --- we jus left that kid there

for ..... . KC: Your member was hospitalized? D: Yeah KC: But, he's going to live? 58.59 D:

KC: D:

Oh yeah -- he's outta the hospital now and then we had ah, we waited until he was a little bit better and then he had ah come with us to go back and then we jus left that kid there after we found em. Was it the specific kid that beat him or just somebody from that gang? Yeah, yeah -- oh no, we don't -- It's nothin -- we don't clown around like that -come and get somebody else that didn't have nothin to do with it. Ya know, might be some like --little kid --like uOh yeah I wanna be down wid these guys" and then their down ya know an then go beat them up or ya know whatever they wanna be down that's their own thing. So we ah go get the exact member or the exact person, it's not about member or what gang they're in, I could care less, most of the time.

KC: Does TMR have some specific rivalries? 59.58 D: Um --- ah, there's this, there's these one little punks, ah what do they call

themselves -- The 2-1 somethin --- 2-1 Clique -- Yeah, fucked with a couple of those cats before. They think they're some -- they think they're a little gang, right, but they got -- see the reason we started fuckin with em is cuz their name, like it was a couple of older kids that were 21 years old and they were like clowin' around like 21 Clique and so a couple of the younger kids were like 21 clique jus' clownin' around and then like they all started sayin it -- and then all of a sudden -- they a gang!?! So that' seems faulty -- all they do is, they sell dimes back and forth to each other and they think they're real tough guys, so man we go over there and like to show em who's tough guy.

KC: Just for the sake of showing them who's the real tough guy. 1.01.00 D: Naw -- cuz man they jus -- they come around thinkin they a gang like -- we're the

21 Clique, whatever ----KC: The reason I looked at Dustin is we've been hearing a lot about the 2-1 Click

D: KC: D: KC: D:

and we're going to go over to Persian Park and interview some of them, because I guess that's were they hang out a lot? Where? Persian Park -- over on 49th and France. Over by Southwest? Umuh They a bunch of little rich mother fuckers,. they make me laugh man I don't


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believe those kids KC: What else do you do to them? 1.01.43

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D: We jack em a couple times, like they'll try to be sellin there little dimes (unclear) like gimme that man, who do you think you are

KC: Do they invade on the TMR's drug trade territory? D: They don't leave their neighborhood -- but it's not like, we're like -- yeah,we're

jiving we're like TMR--ya know, we don't need to be like that ya know, it's just like I'm Gekola, I'm taking your stuff man.

KC: Have you ever experienced a drive by being done on you? D: On me, nope. KC: Have you ever been attacked by any weapon? 1.02.32 D: Yeah, Yeah -- Um a couple a times like I got beat up by like 4 kids that were, two

were Vice Lords and I think two were jus down with em and then like one of em had know me from a long time ago and it was like Yeah your a little mother fucker blah, blah, blah -- an then one of em hit me in the eye and I got a black eye, he hit me a couple times, I tried to fight back, but there was a whole bunch of em, four of em on one person -- so they got me that time.

KC: Did you get hurt? D: I had a black eye, but I wasn't like hurt or anything really bad. KC: Sounds painful anyway. You also run with what I call a tagger crew, you're a

muralist, right? Can you tell me about being a muralist? D: Well um -- when I started it was just tagging back when I was a real little guy and

then uh ----KC: What's real little? What age? 1.03.44 D: Ah like 4th grade --- well (unclear) but ah, 10 or 11, I don't know, and I was just

tagging cuz like the older kids, like the 6th graders were doin art, like ah that's real cool, but then I finally did a piece, which is like a mural, probably in like 7th grade or so and than I was like -- and than I learned, like it it ain't about taggin', it's about, ya know, doin your peice and everything, it's like about the artwork. And then so I stopped tagging and I'd draw and I'd peice every once in a while when I'd get some money for some paint or I'd steal some paint, and then like, like it was real mellow, like when I first started, but then like the last couple like two years, like it's, like kids try to get roudy like if you go over their piece and you don't do better or somethin. An I understand why, ya know, if you stand there with like -- you ah spend like $50 dollars on some paint cans and then like somebody goes over it like two days later and they don't do a better job, cuz there's not that much space in Minneapolis where you can jus be there for like an hour an do some illegal paintin'. So there's like a couple of main spots -- an once like the wall is covered then stuff starts gettin gone over by other grafitti

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artists. And uh, so they'll go over it and if you don't do better, or in their eyes do better an what they did, then their gonna try to get ya or go over you or every time they see your stuff they'll cross it out or somethin. They gotta a couple different ways of retaliatin'. An then, like if they have a battle, like which means ya both piece at the same time and whoever does better wins and then they got the right ta piece there. And then that'd be like --aw no I did better -- you did better, and then they'll fight right and then like it doesn't matter who wins 'cuz then their gonna come back with their crew, but I don't really, I don't get a lot of that, 'cuz like I know about all the main crews like MAS, AKB -like those are the two main crews and then there's a couple other ones like STD and APK, a couple other littler ones, but there's like the main ones.

KC: How many crews are there in Minneapolis? 1.06.32 D: Well -- there's like I say, there's the main ones and then there's like all types -

ali types a little kids that are like -- Aw, we're gonna be the PAS crew, ya know, and just make up somethin -- it stands for, ya know, Peter, Brian and Mike ya know, whatever, their initials or somethin, and so they'll go ahead and do that -so, I couldn't tell you about all those. So, I'd probably say like 5 to 10 like main big crews. WND --- actually there's probably more like 15 or 20 now that I think about it.

KC: How many members are in the crews and what are the ranges of members in the crews?

1.07.24 D: Um -- there's some that's like two -- ah -- WND and AF probably got about like

20 ta 30, each of em. Oh, s --- and then there's like, there's a crew that was around a little while ago, they kinda, nobody really writes it that much anymore, but people are still in it, it's ah TCM - Twin Cities Masters - an then ah -- it's like all the members of AKB, which stands for Artisticly Kickin Ballistics and then all the members of MAS and then like a couple other, like the top writers in other crews, like MAS and AKB they're like, oh ya gotta be real real good to get in those crews. And then ah, MAS is Mental Art Structure and those -- so those guys they're all in their too.

KC: What does MAS stand for? D: Mental Art Structure. KC: Brain booming ahead --- Are you affilitated with just one crew or do you hang out

with various crews? 1.08.39 D: No -- well I was in, ah, TCM and then I was down with MAS, STD, WND, AF -

so a couple, an then I'm down with a couple other crews, a couple of the little ones that like friends of mine are like - "Yeah - well we're gonna get this crew goin" there'll be like three of 'em an they won't really get goin.

KC: So when you do a piece, do you have to put the crews identification on it, or just

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your name on it? D: Ah -- well, most people write -- ya know, like -- yeah this is my crew or whatever,

but naw -- I just write -- I just write, ah, my little name -- whatever. KG: Do you, when you do a piece do you get your crew there to give you backup? 1.09.35 D: Naw -- not in any of really the crews -- like sometimes I'll go paintin' with, ya

know, like a couple kids from -- say WND and like we'll paint and then ah -- like ya know that'll be --jus', we'll paint and then if somebody wants ta say somethin then -- well they won't really 'cuz your there with other people -- they try to come up when your by yourself, taggin' or somethin' or see ya downtown or somethin

KG: And try to get you because you painted over their work or somethin'? D: Yeah -like jus yeah - well sometimes --I never really got caught by anybody

that's like -- hey yeah I'm gonna get you 'cuz you went over my paintin' ya know that'd be like 0000 why'd you go over my paintin man ah I should get you, but some of em ya know they'll know who I am and like they'll see me, I'll go down there and I'll be with like 30 different people and they be like -- oh yeah -- don't mess with that kid, ya know, or whatever. Maybe it's jus' that they're scared, I don't know, it could be lots of different things.

KG: Is that one of the reasons it's useful to hang out with the gang? 1.10.55 D: Yeah -- I guess, I mean it's jus like we're jus' -- ya know, like - it usually -- it won't

be like - Oh Yeah we're gonna be together -- all 30 of us today. Like we'll go over to like R-doc house, we meet there most of the time, cuz like his mom doesn't really care -- his house is kinda big and so we'll go over there, like, I'll go over there with like three or four other cats -- meet up from my side of the neighborhood over here an then like a couple other kids will meet up from over the Longfellow area or Stewart Area and then we'll all end up over there and then ya know like - After we all go over there from our own neighborhood, it's like Ardoc will usually be like -- yeah, everybody gotta get out now, ya all been over here too long, ya all eatin my food, ya know, --- why you guys all over here-let's all go somewhere - he'll always say -- let's go to the mall or somethin jus to get everybody outta the house, so we'll -- most of the time there's not enough cars for everybody to get in over there -- but we'll jump on the bus, whatever and we'll leave or whatever sometimes we'll go to one of the graff walls, out to the mall or somethin, like yeah go get some girls -- but than you know, that never happens, cuz like -- say for instance I go up like "Oh yeah - how you doin" it's like than Big G or someone go "yeah - this is my boy why don't ya git with em" and then somebody else'li come over, so ---- that never happens, but we like to go out there and jus clown around and stuff. We go to different places.

KG: Do you mostly do legal walls when you're doing murals now, or do you just find any walls that you can do?

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0: Ah, well -- we been doin another wall lately that's not, ah, legal, but it's like, ah -it's down by the river and it's like nobody really goes down there at all - I mean we've been down there like ten times now, goin over the same stuff - 'cuz we already did the whole wall already -- goin over our stuff, practicin' up a little bit -havin some fun and then uh -- it's never really -- we never seen anybody -anybody walkin down by there or anything, so I'd say, ya know, it's illegal as law wise goes, but respectably it's ya know, it's like it's legal 'cuz nobody goes down there an we're jus -- the wall looks better than it did before -- I'll tell ya that.

KC: Do you do motion pieces? 0: What's that? KC: Motion -- moving pieces, trains, buses. 1.13.55 0: Oh yeah, yeah - trains, I love to do trains, I don't do em when they're movin I ah

do em when they're stopped, I love to do trains 'cuz then like the train yard guys they got these little salt guns and they shoot you with 'em, so then ya know like, like sometimes we'll jus be paintin and like you'll get hit and it's like - "time to pac up", and jus' grab your bag an jus' start runnin, ya know. I don't do those as much now, I'm 18 now and I don't wanna get arrested, but I still do em every once in a while. Usually you won't see any train yard guys goin by at like real late, but -- so we do it anyway sometimes.

KC: Do you do a lot of the murals at night? 0: Ah, we try to find places we can do it in the daytime, 'cuz then it's like you can

see it ya know, urn -- we do some at night, but it doesn't turn out as good cuz, 'cuz it's like, ya know in the dark. Hold a lighter up to it or flashlight against a rock, I don't know ---

KC: When you do a mural do you draw it out first, so you know what you're gonna do?

1.15.10 0: Ah -- I usually do, otherwise when I don't it's called free stylin' and then I'm just

like somethin, sometimes my throw up, somethimes like, like it's a design or I can think of a style in my head when I'm sittin on the bus or in somebody's car on my way to go wherever we're goin -- and then I'm like -- 000 yeah, if I kinda change the "E" so the letter kinda curves a little bit and I'll jus' be thinkin of it in my mind, and I can kinda see like if I do like that one style I did in the sketch book, but with a little other curve like I did in the other sketch book, ya know, and then I can jus' kinda design it in my head and then jus kinda do it, cuz you can spray, enamal paint is opaque meaning you can go back over it. So like you can, like if you do kind of a sketch of the design that you're doin and you don't like it, you can kinda change it a little bit -- the way it was, it's harder to explain than it is to show ya.

KC: Are you always working with a sketch book, developing new designs that you might want to do on different walls?


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D: Yeah --I'm always drawing, well sometimes not in a sketch book, like a couple of the graphic designers makin fun of me, cuz I jus always come over with like a crumpled old piece of paper and I fold it out like - "ah, look at the newest one man" and then they like -- "man, comin over here with your little cumpled old piece a paper". Sometimes I bring the book, but -- 'cuz I don't really like to bring it -- luggin it all around.

KG: Do you have a backpack with your book and your paints and your different nozzles and everything?

1.16.53 D: Yeah, ah -- it's usually -- I usually leave it over at R-doc house cuz like I still

have paint in it, cuz like when I get paing, like I'll buy some paint and I'll end up stealin' some paint -- I'll jus throw it in my bag -- not even goin in there like "I'm gonna steal some paint" I'll just end up grabbin a couple - I got big pockets, I'll throw one in there. So, I'll always have like a whole -- there's a whole ton a paint and we'll never be able to use it all, like hey we're gonna use it all this time, man we're gonna do the --- but we'll do some cool stuff, and we never be able to use all the paint 'cuz I'll always have so much. I got a mask too, and then like the mask is in the bag which is in R-doc --

KG: The mask is in the bag and it's in R-doc? 1.17.45 D: Yeah -- and I got the spray tips and all the whole deal and like the sketch book-

I was drawin in it last night an like I was gonna bring it -- but I never --I never do. But, I usually, I usually actually draw in his sketch book, 'cuz than I can jus -- it's over there and the wall is real close to his house so I can jus do like - yeah -and then like bring his sketch book, cuz I've had like times that we've been paintin and then like the police'li roll up and then we gotta run and like ya gotta leave your whole bag there, cuz it's like five feet the other way and ya won't be able to make it there and be able to get away in time, so ya jus gotta run, and then --like -- so your sketch book'il be out cuz you would of been lookin at the design and then transferin it to the wall and then you would set it down on the other side and then forgot to put it back in the bag and then Bodine rolls up and ya just gotta go right then, ya see a can ya grab it, ya know, and then your jus out. So, I've lost probably five, six sketch books - like half full - jus clownin' around.

KG: You lost some bags too? 1.18.56 D: Yeah -- and lots a paint -- lots a paint I lost, 'cuz there be times like I got all the

paint, like set next to the wall, like 'cuz after - you get sick of puttin it back in the bag - and like "ah - the cops aint comin - don't worry about it" and you'll jus set on down and be like "ah - what's one can" and then you'll set like - you'll end up havin'-- like, you'll use another color and you'll set it down, an set it down -whole bags of tips all kinds of stuff that I lost.


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KG: Where do you get all the tips? 1.19.28

Dracon 12

0: Ah -- there's like these stores, like -- I don't wanna tell ya the names 'cuz, ah -maybe somebody'll hear this or somethin an close it down - cuz I don't wanna --But you can actually -- well there's a couple -- there's two stores you can go to -like -- it's kinda like a, kinda like bootleg kinda stores, underground kinda style stores that you can go to otherwise if you get like graffiti magazines from these stores - actually there's kind of a lot of stores that sell em, but the best ones are at these two stores that there are, there's one a distance outta 5t. Paul and then there's one that's Uptown, and then like it's such a meet location and so I make it by there usually every time I go through the areas -- and so I'll jus -- and so if you go to those stores and ya get one of the graf magazines -- inside the magazines you'll be able to order like German thin caps for doin real thin lines or super skinny caps for like inner designs, and than fat caps, outline tips, New York neats, there's names for all kinds of different -- to do all different things, ya know. So you jus order em - like you'll get like the super skinny ones, which are the best ones and like the outline ones, like super skinny ones -you can get like, for 15 bucks you get like 50 of em -- so it's not expesive -- they're real cheap.

KG: It still sounds like it's an expensive activity though. 0: Yeah - that's why most graf artists end up stealin' all their paint. To tell you the

truth. But, like, I got a job an like I do stuff on the side sometimes, so I usually got some money ta, we usually all do, got some money to spend on paint or whatever.

KG: You talked about the police coming, so this is when your not doing legal walls. Do the police bother you a lot?

1.21.38 0: Urn -- probably -- not a lot -- probably like one out of ten times that you go out

you'll see em an they'll roll up ya know, you can't count on em comin ya know, like "Oh - well this is the 1 Oth time" ya know, an ya can't count on em not comin like "ah well they're not gonna come this time -I'm jus feelin lucky" cuz as soon as say that, ya know, that's when it happens.

KG: Is part of the fun to see if you can get by without the police coming? 1.22.08 0: Yeah -- that's -- well, actually it's kinda fun jus to be able ta run, ya know.

guess there goes that rush again, ya know, but lately most of my stuff has been the legal wall jus cuz then I can take my time an do the whole wall an jus kick back and have some fun, clown around, talk all kinds of shit, we like -- man, fuck yo mom -- and ya know -- I already did -- whatever, ya know, jus say stupid stuff to each other -- clown around for awhile, ya know, 'cuz then if you at the legal wall then like other artists 'II come up that ya know from this or this an then ya go -- ah, was up man, yeah tha was a cool one ya did over there on tha one train I seen it -- an then we get in magazine an we like -- yeah - I checked that one ya


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Dracon 13

did in ya know, whatever, there's 12 Ounce Profit. .. all different types of 'em. KC: So you will put a name on different pieces, so that people have a name for it

besides your own 10. 0: Yeah, you'll be like -- ah yeah, Gekola -- I checked that one you did that was in

tha one magazine ya know, 14K ya know whatever, that's an example of how they'll

KC: So, if your work is showing up in the magazines, then your pretty good. 1.23.44 0: Yeah - um -I've only had one in a magazine myself and then it was me an a

friend of mine cuz I did the letters and then he did the character an then that one came up in there. They don't really come to Minneapolis a lot, Minnesota a lot at all, Midwest, anywhere really, but like New York gets a lot of publicity and Los Angeles and Oakland -- Califorina is full of places.

KC: Have you ever travled any place else to do some murals? 0: Well -- we did it in Virginia when we went there, but that's not like a big spot

either for graf. The Minneapolis scene is probably about 200, no not that many, probably like just over 100, maybe 125 -- 125 kids. And then like if ya say New York, they'll have like 500 ya know, like if ya go to Chicago it's illegal to sell paint in the city limits, they don't even sell paint around there, ya gotta go in the suburbs an get it, 'cuz it's such a bad epidemic ya know, it's a felony and stuff, it's not like the same as it is here -- it's a big deal over there.

KC: Is that making a difference, for it to be a felony? 1.25.02 0: Actually, ah one of the kids I know that was from Chicago was tellin me he was

like man, it jus - makes it all the more fun have ta - it's an adventure, ya know, bein able - havin to go to the suburbs an then go get the paint and then be able ta -- an then come back, ya know, then do the mural or whatever, then do his piece, an he's like it's all the more adventure to the adventure, ya know.

KC: What are the things that the police do around here to try to control you, the grafitti?

0: Ah -- they don't do shit really -- if they get a tip off or somebody sees us paintin' an goes and calls the police or somethin, they jus happen to be jus drivin by an kinda see ya under a bridge or somethin, on a rooftop then they'II-- stop (unclear) they don't really - they got like a anti-gang an grafitti somethin, but they jus' go around an paint over grafitti that's already there.

KC: Is that Minneapolis and St Paul and all the suburbs or just Minneapolis? 1.26.22 0: Ah -- I jus seen it in Minneapolis, an there kind of a joke too, we jus' -- we always

-- go up an? tags on there truck - I don't even really tag, but jus cuz, ya know, they're jus' such a joke -- those guys - sot, we jus do it to spite them.

KC: If you put up a mural and they paint over it right away, does that just inspire you


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to put up another mural or do you finally give up on it? 1.27.54

Dracon 14

D: Yeah - I'll be mad for a minute -like damn I jus did that one an then I'll be like -anyways we gotta clean white wall, let's get paintin' guys, ya know, an we'll jus, if we don't got any paint we'll go right to the paint store, hardware store, Target, where ever. Like to go to like Walmart or like out in the suburbs 'cuz they're a lot cheaper and ya get the buy one get one free deal out there. So, we --I like to go out there to like Walmart or Home Depot or somethin and then --- what was the question?

KC: Basically, the question was -- is there anything that the police does to inhibit your painting?

D: Nothin -- Nada -- or not like nothin ta -- like they'll even let your piece be up for a couple a weeks, ya know, they won't even come an go over it if -- well it's not the police that paint over it, so -- so yeah -- they don't do nothin.

KC: Is there anything that can be done, that would frustrate you so you'd quit doing a particular wall?

1.28.10 D: Naw -- it's kinda nice when they paint over it, 'cuz then it's not like you gotta

worry about -- Oh, well I'm cool with this guy, I don't wanna go over his paintin', ya know, an -- well I know all these guys that paint on this wall so we gotta go to a different spot, ya know, ya don't gotta worry about, it's like it's a clean white spot -- let's get paintin ya know. So, it's kinda -- it's kinda cool if they do it every once in a while, cuz ya kinda get mad, ya know, if you jus done somethin and then they painted over, but it's jus, ya know, you don't really mind too much, ya know, it's happened to me before -- they painted over like two days later, I didn't really -- I didn't really care, ya know. We went back the next day an got ta paint again, ya know, so I didn't really mind at all.

KC: How many legal walls are there? D: Umm - two, two legal walls. KC: So that means most of your work has to be done on illegal walls. D: On the what's that? KC: Illegal walls. D: Ah -- the two legal walls are jus' -- they're real, real big -- so there's tons an tons

of room ta paint on -- but, ah - I like ta do the illegal work jus for the thrill of it -Like Coca Cola would say - Jus for the thrill of it.

KC: It's about the rush again, huh? D: Yeah. KC: Do you always wear a maSk, or do you enjoy getting high from the paint too? 1.29.41 D: Actually -- when I first started I never had a maSk, I got it when I did an indoor

job. But, ah -- I never got high -- like I'd inhale it like - not like ---- try to inhale it, but it'd be in the air an you'd breath it in an I never got high, I'd always -after I


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Dracon 15

was paintin I'd always get a headache - my head would jus hurt an I'd never like feel like uppity high or anything. But, like I'd get a headache from, maybe it's 'cuz, ah I never inhaled it fast, I don't know what it is, but I'd get a headache so I ah, I did a indoor, I did somethin indoor over at my girlfriends house, in her room, and ah, I was like -- Yeah -- ah, I'm gonna need a mask and ah I was like I'll go get the paint, why don't you go get me a mask an I'll do it for ya -- and she was like - alright. So, that's how I got my mask an then, like I use it an I don't get a headache.

KG: Lucky that you figured that one out. D: Yeah KG: Much better not to get a headache. Dustin, what do you want to ask. DUS: This is my first sit in, so I don't know. I'll just ask about the legal walls, because

part of my social service internship is gonna be a senior thesis on things like that and ah, are you willing to tell us at least where the legal walls are so that we can see the work, whether yours or somebody elses?

KG: Gan we go over there right now? D: You can go right now KG: Oh - okay, do you have any work up. 1.32.33 D: Well -- maybe -- I haven't painted there for quite awhile, cuz we got this new

place I was tellin you about where we haven't seen anybody, so we been paintin there for probably about two months and I was gonna go down and do a paintin and ah, do some hangin out down there and everything and jus see what's goin on but I never did we decided ta go to the illegal spot again just cuz it's close ya know, it's about like two blocks over from my boy's house where we always meet up at and so ah, I usually jus go over there.

KG: Should we go? D: You wanna go we can go right now.

****Changed locations: At the "Bomb Shelter" legal wall. ****

KG: Tell us about it. D: There's two walls right here -- like this one -- I think this guy might a died -- I

don't know I didn't hear about it -- I didn't ever know em, but ---KG: How did he die? 1.32.47 D: I don't know -- that's what I get -- ah, awright -- the mural right here says Monk.

A writer named Ewok did it - an then ah says RIP in it an then miss you, I'm not sure, an I heard that from somebody else that he might a died too, I don't -- I never knew em, I don't know.

KG: So, Ewok is doing an honor piece to Monk, who might have died? 1.33.11


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Dracon 16

D: Yep -- an then this is Monk. It starts right here and then they collaborated the pieces together see 1976 to 1996, an ya kinda get that out of it too, ya know --Right there is says metal as there crew is heavy metal and that's kind a like a TCM crew where it's jus kind of a lot of crews put together ta have -- ta a united kind a crew. An then what the piece says --ahhh, Con --- Con somethin, I don't know, sometimes I can't even read it.

KC: This higher stuff up here -- is that just somebodys ............ . 1.34.12 D: Those are like, ah, throw ups I kinda referred to earlier, ah it's like -- this kid

right here for example, Umek, that's a friend of mine, ah LSB - that's not even a 5 - whatever, so ah, he does his throw up and that's like his like -- it doesn't say the whole name, sometimes it'll say their crew, or --like this one right here in red it says sex - I don't know him -- that's jus what you do to jus quick write your name an you can, you usually can do your throw up quick so you can go downtown and quick do it on like a wall or somethin, an jus' instead of taggin' now most kids jus' do throw ups to be able to be like, ya know, whatever ---

KC: So they do a throw up to say like I've been here? D: Yeah -- more or less it's jus kinda advertisement for thier pieces. KC: So, if they do them downtown ... 1.35.16 D: Well at the end of the year they ah, when somebody comes over they'll say - Ok

Ewok gets a crown, Poster gets a crown cuz he got the most strokes and the most pieces and they're the best.

KC: So, who are the best taggers in the Metro area? D: I don't know anything about taggers, but best graff artists-- ah, Ewok, Ember

there's a couple of 'em. KC: Tell me about it. 1.35.56 D: Well it's, as you can see right here it says not done - two different people you

can tell usually by their style -- they didn't leave their names an, it's not a real established writer that I've seen before -- you can tend to recognize styles -- like say a murderer for example -- they'll always murder in the same kind of way-like a grafitti artist 'II always kind a do their shadowin in the same kinda way or the inner coloring styling in the same kinda way, so you can always ya know, tell like that.

KC: Now is that a throw up with the red outline and the tourquoise over there. D: Yeah, that's Poc, like usually if there's a space left they'll do a throw up until

somebody does a piece there. Like he was king for awhile a couple years back an he got the crown.

KC: Does one person get the crown at the end of the summer? D: Yeah -- usually it'll be pretty unanimous an you'll know, cuz they'll jus blow

everybody else outta their socks, ya know, (unclear) so nice.


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Dracon 17

KC: Who do you think it might be this year? We're half way through the summer. D: Ah, I'd say -- I'd probably say Ewok, he's above and beyond. KC: Would he have anything up here? D: Or, Devine -- Yeah he did the one at the end for the one going -- for somebody ..

That's not the best of the work he's done, he's done a lot better than that. KC: Oh, its ... 1.37.30 D: Or, there's one other one, Devine, he's from Wisconsin he ah he's the one that

did my tatoo for me an ah he's a tatoo artist an he used to do grafitti there an then he got into tatoos an so ah, his stuff, he's a really good artist ya know, he just kinda transcribes it over to the paintin.

KC: This stuff looks different from the others. D: It's a really, really bad piece. KC: Is it? D: It's like really, like weak, like you can see the drips. You try not to have drips

and how it's kinda like right along here it's real etchy, like he didn't have real control over how the paint splatteres all over, like you can see it's all choppy, he even wrote sloppy, he knows, pretty damn sloppy, he knows.

KC: This might be a new artist who's just trying to protect ..... D: So, this guy right here whoever he went over -- his probably wasn't better - so

he'll ya know have trouble with whoever he went over (unclear) KC: So when you go over somebody else you don't just paint the wall white to do it,

you just go over and need to fill in all the pieces to go over somebody. 1.39.01 D: Spray paint is opaque so it just goes right over. Sometimes you paint over it just

so you don't have this, so you don't really see that stuff in the back -- a roller paint an go over it. What the fuck is this, you know?! Meow?! Excuse me swearin on the tape and everything, but. .. Be sure not to take any pictures of this right here. I don't want anybody to get the wrong impression ya know, see this kind of stuff gives you the wrong impression about graf 'cuz then it's like you see this an it'll be like, ya know, ah this is just a bunch of fuckin' --- then it goes back to the taggin ya know, vandalism really, it's legal to paint here, but --

KC: So, is this an older piece that's up on the top there? D: Yeah, that's jus another throw up, it's jus a little nicer, ya know, he took a little

more time, he kinda just did his name, Con, he's pretty good. You know, he's runnin' for the crown himself.

KC: Do people carry ladders around to be able to go up high? 1.40.07 D: Actually, this right here on the ground, a pallett, they just kinda lean it up against

the wall and then you kind a climb up it like a ladder and just be able to reach up there. Even the stuff up on the top, it's painted over --- I had somethin right there and that one got went over, but that was quite awhile ago. And then every


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Dracon 18

once in a while, like right here, some fuckin' kids come write their name on it or something, but this was a really good piece and they come and wrote their name on it. You can usually get better pictures during like the ah -- right at the end or right at the beginin of the season, because all these trees aren't here.

KC: Now, is this a better piece? 0: Ya, it's pretty neat, it's a little bit drippy -- it's better than the one we saw down

there. He's gotta a pretty big color scheme. KC: Is that a throw up up there? 0: Yep, it's a throw up -KC: Det? 0: Delt. I had somethin up there see Gekola across the top. I had a ladder that

time, that I stole off of the next group over and then I climbed up so I got to ya know go really high and so I did somethin right there - I just did a throw up that wasn't. .. you know throw ups aren't like ... you do a throw up, ten or fifteen minutes and you're done.

KC: Do you call it a tag or your name? 0: When ya jus' sign your name you jus' kinda call it a tag, but I don't consider

myself a tagger. Actually, I get kinda offended when somebody like calls you a tagger. It's like fuck you, you're a tagger.

KC: So a graffiti artist is definitly several steps above a tagger? 0: A tagger jus goes and writes a name, ya know, not considered an art perspective

or anything, jus writin their name. KC: What's this writing here? 0: That's him throwin up his crew: Slope, Zion, Yen, Plot, Ham, Logik, Ember, Eros,

Chen, Intel, Denz. Thats, ah, NTS Crew --I think, or maybe AKB or ... 1 never heard Denz was in AKB, but. .. 1 think it's NTS he's throwin up. This is like the throw up room where everybody does there throw up. It' just a waist of time. That's jus everybodies throw up, ya know, practicin and everything -- like he did a piece right here an it got wrotin all over - ah I was drunk, he was drunk, cuz people don't really ever piece here.---

KC: So -- he did a piece and than he came back and looked at it and disowned it? 0: No - I think he did it the same, like he started doin it and it was like -- man this is

whack, I'm wastin my time KC: Trust Jesus, somebody ... 0: Actually that's a real, real old tagger from, probably the beginin' of taggin' in

Minneapolis used to write Trust Jesus like along Hiawatha here and a couple other places, him and ah Jopey, they were like the original taggers in my eyes. saw those guys, that's probably why I started taggin -- when I saw those guys writin around.

KC: How do you learn? I mean do you read in these magazines about how to perfect a style or do you watch other people, or ...

1.44.16


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Dracon 19

0: Yeah, ya jus, it's mostly your on your own practicin, drawin, like ya see their style and ya be like -- man if you woulda cut that "U" a little bit and ya woulda slide that "C" over a little bit and then you'll do your letter and you'll do that and you'll be like "Yeah".ya know, first I started out jus drawin like bubble letters an then add a little arrow at the bottom of it, ya know, and jus like that. Like this right here he's probably just beginnin cuz it's just like plain bubble letters.

KC: You know, some people get into the faces ... 0: Yeah, characters. Yeah, sometimes you do characters. I've done characters

before. KC: You said that the piece that got in the magazine had a character and some ... 0: Yeah.


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0-+1 105, 3{

Tape 18 -;L

1.27

DRACON GRAFFITI ARTIST

18 Year Old European American

Interviewed by : Kate Cavett

Hand in Hand &

Dustin Reichert Metropolitan State University Intern

September 13, 1997 Minneapolis Bridgeman's

KC: Ok ... we are looking at pictures and here is Gekola. D: Alright ..... right here the ... these top three which are 101-10, 101-8, 101-9 ... actually 101-10

isn't quite .... .Ijust looked at it an' I thought it might be gang graffiti ... but it's more like what we call a toy tagger .... a person that's not very good and doesn't do like pieces, which are again, like the Murals, that the King Graffiti's do, I guess you could say. But.. .. well that's jus' like a toy, I guess, an' especially since you can see that it's on a garage, meanin' he doesn't care about people's property ....... an' that's the kind of stuff that gives graffiti a bad name, the murals an' everything.

DR: ??? 2.46 D: Alright.. ... we got a tagger ... actually that's really faded .... OK. ... I01-12 says ADT SUK ... those

are two different graffiti crews which meanin' it's probably one offive different writers who are in both crews. I know a couple of' em ... B52, Nu, I think Simps is in both of' em, but there's a few ... there's not many people who are in two different crews of the same combination .... so, ya know it can only be a few different people. So, they didn't sign it so you don't know ...... they're jus' puttin' up their crew.

DR: What about this here? These are all on one wall. D: Well ... this JEO you can tell is faded . .it's older ... so this AID came along later on an' the

JEO ... that's like probably a kid that...well you can tell that it's real old so you he's probably a lot better now if he kept at it...I've never heard of JEO. Sometimes people get started under .. under like a name that's not as good, ya know. Like when I first started writin' ... oh man I went through tons of tags, ya know, an' than as soon as you get a little better than you change it, like yeah .... not lettin' people all know that you were bad back when you were little an' everything ..... like yeah, I'm this new guy now ... .I'mjus' on the scene, fresh out.. .. comin' out.. . .I'mjus' good, ya know. I guess that's what people do. Ah .... you got some gang stuff here .... we got 101-5 we got a couple more tags .... EMOS, I don't know ..... SEAN .... probably, oh S-C-A-N .. .it's hard to read the tags when they jus' scribble

COPYRIGHT: HAND in HAND, Post Office Box 65522, Saint Paul, MN 55102 = 612-227 -5987

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Analysis by Dracon 2

'em on there. I don't know about that one. Then we got 101-1 .... AT MOE, it could say 1000 different things to tell you the truth.

DR: ??? 5.29 D: Well .... some of them I can, yeah .... but when they jus' kinda scribble scrabble somethin' on

there .... an' if it's the same every time than you'll know, 'cuz their names around, ya know, an' usually you meet 'em at the wall, other writers you meet 'em at the wall. But, like this I never seen before .. .it' s real scrabbley -- you can tell the kind of controL .. .it's thicker on top and then fads out.. .so it means, ya know, he didn't really know how to hold it ... he was jus' slidin' his arm around an' then the little dot right on the end right here it's mean .... an' where it breaks .. .it means he couldn't hold the tip that hard, so .... he' s probably jus' started ya know, an' I couldn't tell you when he wrote that...it's kinda faded, but it's on this kinda .. .it's on this ... .it's already been prepainted ... so that.. . .it can usually stay that ripe for years before it'll start to fade. On cement is when it starts to fade, ya know, fade fast. .. on this it could stay fresh for years, so, he could be better ... he could be one of the Kings now ..... I don't know.

DR: ???? D: I think I know that kid, or no, no .... oh yeah, but I seen 'em .. J don't know 'em ... he wrote

somethin' else, it was awhile ago, but I seen some of his stuff, it was ........ yeah, the bomb shelter ... .I got all these pictures in my house. 103-7 A, you can use that one, but 103-6A or GA, you can see me too much an' you can see Kate, too. Well, you'll want the .... see ... not you Kate ..... just a reminder for later .... you jus' like put your hand over there, but then you'll be cuttin' out the "M' on Mber -- that's what it says "Mber" on 103-GA. Keep the one that's jus me backwards, 'cuz if it's on a computer well then it's like - Caucasian male - short hair in the back, ya know. I don't even know where that shirt is .... .I never wear it.

K: So, what do they say? 8.32 D: Alright, well ...... l03-00A is the rules. All right pick up your cans because ..... ya know, these

rules were put there by a friend of mine, META, that's my friends older brother, I can see his old tag Kill Death see that, and it'd be like "man ....... "ya know, he was a man ya know, when I was little ya know, I'd see him and I'd see his stuff and I'd be like "eah ... I wanna be a Gaf Artist". So like, "pick up your cans means" like don't leave your stuff there because we gotta respect them, the people who let us paint there, otherwise they'll make us stop an' then we'll have to go under bridges and do stuff illegally an' you usually .... .ifyou do stuff illegally, you usually don't get to finish ... you gotta run from the police an' that's no fun. "No paint on the front or side" .... that's, again, respect to the company ..... ya know don't ruin their stuff ... they'll kick us off. "Stay off the roof' ..... before this wall was legal, we had painted there an' on the second wall I showed you an' that was that real faded one, that wasn't there because of that one, we also painted on the top of this roofbefore it was legal ... but they tore down the stuff so you can't climb up there anymore, like they had a little like built on pallet thing ....... .

K: Is graffiti illegal, even on legal walls?

COPYRIGHT: HAND in HAND, Post Office Box 65522, Saint Paul, MN 55102 = 612-227-5987

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D: No .... we paintthere. One time, actually, we were paintin' down at the bomb shelter an' ah .. 'cuz when it was first legalized an ah it was my crew when we first started out jus' the graffiti

10.58 members, an' I think at the time we had five of us down there and AKB an' a couple people from MAS, so there were probably about 13 people down there at that time all paintin, jus' coverin' the whole wall over again ..... an' the police came out 'cause one of the neighbors that lived in the neighborhood saw people walkin' up with a big box, walkin behind the buildin' an' they didn't know .... so they called the police ...... so about Y2 hour after we been there the police showed up an we're like "Ahhhh .... what the hell?" an' we're like it's legal an' luckily one of the writers, Meta, who was an older guy, he had the paper that said it was legal otherwise they probably woulda arrested, well they couldn't of arrested us all, but ........ .

K: So, it isn't illegal to do graffiti if you're on a legal wall? 11.55 D: Nope ...... well they could .... ifthey really wanted to ... like see what you wrote next to the piece

an' then see if you rode around town an' then get a picture of you or somethin' crazy like that, but .... naw, they ain't gonna do nothin'.

K: I ask because somebody told me because somebody told me it was illegal even on legal walls? D: Maybe jus' by hidin' in the bush an' takin' a picture, but really 1... DR: ???? 13.08 D: Ok. ... are we done with the rules here? 0K. ... I03-2A ... this is a KON piece, I think he did this

jus' to change his style a little bit, 'cuz usually he does real intricate wild stuffan' now it's kinda cartoony with with like the boot.. .. or .... yeah there's a boot there .... an' then the boxing glove kinda punchin' like a reaction .... kinda mouse trap kinda game, ya know, how the thing, the ball moves an somethin' hits somethin, kinda thing. K. ... an' then he kinda break up the 0, like this is the K way down here in like the blue an then like the 0 is kinda broken up an' then the N right here. See the letters are real simple and KON usually '11 do some real wild letter that you can barely read. An the top right here ... this M-E-T-A an' then there's ..... META. ... hey, that's the other guy .... but, there's a L right here also an' that's metal for Heavy Metal is their crew, select members .... they're pretty good, but they're kinda dicks, to tell you the truth. Like you can't paint here unless you're good and blah, blah, blah, blah, we got in some tifs with them before. 103-3A Sex. Sex ... these two in red here and the middle .... these are ah .. jus' this kid sex, it's his throw up, in the beginning of the summer and spring ... he had a lot of pieces up here, but.. .. he just kinda stopped, I guess. You can usually see the Sex around , like downtown an' stuff or like all kinds of different places, 'cuz that's ...... .

DR: I saw a couple of his tags around town? D: In like a throw up like this? DR: ??? 15.35 D: Well, he use to have a lot of these Sex throw ups all over, like downtown an' some big places,


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I haven't seen him do anythin' lately ... And this here it's jus' kinda cut off, Umek. ... actually, I saw a couple kids from his crew today ... an' they said "let's go paintin" an' I said "hey .... good idea". 103-4A it says EROS .... like E - R --0 it kinda looks like an E but it's an 0 an' then S. EROS likes to hide like AKB in his stuff an' if you see other ones there'll be a A over here and a K in the middle an' like a B on the end, ya know, he tries to .... that's his crew .... Artisticly .... Kickin' ... Ballestics .... he likes to .... ah I think promote his crew a lot. 103-5A, this is out of a small area on the main wall which is kinda ........ .like splits apart ... one side of the main wall from the other side of the main wall an' it kinda goes into like a little room an' ah, that's where everybody jus' does throw up. It's called a tIrowup room ... an' right here, right in the center is WCA. .... that pretty clean ..... but, the W is pretty ugly ... J don't know ... J never heard WCA before .... .it might be a crew that changed their name or somebody that's jus' tryin' to start a new crew with a couple of their friends or somethin'.

DR: Like William, Charles and Adam? 17.23 D: Yeah ..... three guys are like .... yeah .. .let's do our name ..... throw it out there .... William, Charles

an .......... I like thaL .... an there's a little character here .... an' everything else is jus' scribble scrabble, this was probably about here about two days an' then somebody'll go over it an' somebody will go over that. ... you jus' like put your name up here .... to show that you been here lately, ya know, no big deal. 103-84 ... S- Y- R an' then up in the little comer on the right hand side, it says "not done" meanin' they didn't finish somethin' on here, but ... .it really doesn't look like it could get much worse, or much better, or much more anything ...... .like I don't know, I personally don't like it. It's like he did all these etchy little lines in the inside and then he put in outline on it like "yeah ..... this is graffiti" an' the letters aren't very intricate, but it's clean ... so yeah ... he gets props jus' for doin' it. 103-6A17A the one that says "Mber" M-B-E-R He's one of the kids from the Heavy Metal Crew, that's why it says lIM, which is the Heavy Metal, 1997 is when he did it. People like to write like what year, so if this is up 'til next year, then they get lots of props toward gettin a crown next year, 'cuz then it's like "oh yeah .. .it was up for a whole year" an' there are pieces that'll stay up for, ya know, two years 'cuz they're so good. But, they'll start to fade an' somebody'll be like -'Well- go over it--it's startin' to fade, ya know". But, this one won't be up for that long 'cuz it's not the best.. .. .it' s not really that good.

K: Have they picked the King----it's King right? The King for this year? 19.43 D: Umm ... well, it's kinda like-- you kinda do it in your own crew. It's not like everybody'll get

together an be like "Yeah --he's the King -- Hooray to the King" he get's a crown or anything, but ya know most everybody .. .it' s kinda unanimous that it's Ewok, some say Denz from Chicago, but Ewok's done a lot more, so that's what we say, Ewok.

DR: ???? D: That's indoor .... or no K: 0102-1 20.23


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D: Yeah --Kore ... Kare--- It could be either --K - A- R - E or K - 0 -R - E. That's kindajus', kinda'toy, 'cuz he did a little--- like on the K it's a little swirly, which are like "00000,

hey ... I'm cool" an' he did it on both, ya know, it might have been more original if he only did on one of the letters, but, he did it on both, like ----yeah ..... .I don't know, I don't like his style ... .like it's straight an' kinda in the ..... like curved an' then it be straight an' then it's kinda curved ---he's gotta pick either one or the other, really .... .in my eyes.

K: Gekola., you are .... the interpretation is so intrical which .... .I feel like I'm talking to a college professor who can analyze the Picasso or something like that.

2l.51 D: 104-0 - If I'm not mistakin' it says Deon, like somebody's name or somethin' I don't really

know, it's kinda small, jus' a marker it looks like--- one of the toys. 104-1, that's like another one of the toys. Etemal ..... A-L-G-A-X. .. ALDAX ----------Redwing way down there huh ....... Eternal Algax ... I don't know-----they don't got gangs in Redwing, that's where my grandma lives .... 1 been down there.

K: What do you mean, they don't got gangs in Redwing? D: They don't got gangs in Redwing. K: They got gangs in Redwing. They might not have Graffiti Artists in Redwing, but they've got

gangs in Redwing. D: Nope .... not real gangs. What's this ---- you said this is gang graffiti ... .it looks like it says East

side an' then there's a little pitchfork that says I love Mike or ........ so, you're sayin' this is not gang graffiti or it is ...... .

DR: This is an example of Red Wing gang graffiti D: What, you say this is gang graffiti. Well .... what it says East side ..... . DR: ????? 23.29 D: There's East side Crips an' they got black an' blue ... real dark black. .... an' the down

pitchfork .... this is old, this is faded ... the pitchfork is a different kind of paint with the fatter caps ... that they come out of the factory --'cuz they don't buy caps in Redwing ... so this is newer ok. .. so, this is probably a Crip an' they went over it with a pitchfork with the trilon house coat thing ---I don't know what they call it. .. .I don't use those things, but you can tell how it sprayed .... 'cuz one straight line ..... you can see the curve .... they're not gonna be able to follow that twice over. It's some cool stuff ---that was 104-2 that we was talkin about there. 104-3 - hey ... .I know where this is at.. ... that's over on 24th street.

K: 24th Street is 104-4 -- what, we're talking about 104-3? 24.47 D: Yeah - maybe it's a Segot.. .. J don't really know ...• l04-3 ... that's probably jus' a tagger. . .like

I say it's in Redwing ... .1 don't really know what they got goin' on down there these days. Maybe they jus ............... .I don't know. I don't know what to tell you about that one ... they used two different cans, so they took some time an' .... that could be like a J or L. .. that's S E maybe ...... the middle letter is questionable .... they write stuff an' they could say a thousand different things.

K: 104-4?


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25.46 D: 104-4 ---L - K that's jus' gang graffiti. 1 know this wall 'cuz a friend of mine lives right on

the other side of it an' when we were little we use to try to climb these, it's right on 24th Street an' about ..... well it's not on the street tho .... it'sjus' before 28th. On the other side of this wall there's an alley with this one huge wall an' we did a couple pieces on there -- jus' quick ones, like kinda big throw ups, Nicies, we call 'em, which is in between a throw up an' a piece. It's colored, but it's not a piece, it's called a Nicey, we did a few of those down that alley. So that how 1 recognize .... 1 guess ... you remember walls, kinda. Wels CSA is 104-5, 1 seen it before, but again it's like a toy -- he's not really, a good, ya know graffiti artist to me, 'cuz he doesn't do any pieces he jus' does taggin' he's a tagger. Umm .... nowon 104-6, the top one is Umek LSB, this guy right here, he tags for like advertises pieces 'cuz I've seen, actually 1 know him an' I've seen his pieces .. .I've pieced with him before ... so, he's a 1 guess advertisin' for his pieces. Prism, I've seen it plenty of times, but 1 never seen any pieces ... .! guess his letters are pretty neat. .... but he's still just a tagger.

DR: Are you talking about each individual person? 27.44 D: Umek LSB is in the green and then Prism is in the white and these are different people, the

green is one person, the white is one person an' on the bottom here A -K - U - T...... A - K-0- J maybe A-K-O-T, P L.P7 maybe .... 1 never seen it before .... 1 don't know, it's jus' a tagger.

K: What do you mean by he's advertising for his pieces? 28.13 D: Well, that's kind of an excuse that the muralists give that's why they tag .... but it's really

just.. .. .! don't really know why .... 1 don't know they just tag ...... like to give graffiti a bad name, 1 guess ... Jus' kinda get up so people recognize 'em .... people recognize that they did stuff, ya know, that they were darin' enough to get up and write their name on that little place right there. Like a little dog, just tryin' to leave it's name around.

DR: What's this Vent guy .... is he like a toy tagger, 1 see tags everywhere an' 1 see two throw ups that 1 have pictures of .... I can't read the bottom ........ ..

D: N - E - V A ..... sometimes they write N-E-V-A-R .... ifthat's the one, 1 can't really tell 'cuz it's scribed in the glass.

K: Scribed? What are Scribes? 29.27 D: It's called a glass Scribe .... you'll see that on the back of a lot of the buses .... city buses. 1 use

to scribe when everybody first started doin' it. You go to the hardware store an' get a glass scribe, you gotta get the real strong one with the little knife thing on the back an' then it scribes right in .... otherwise they get the scribe sandpaper which is real course an'they can jus' ...... that's what they do the thick ... ya know, the V - E- N - T, ya know, that's real thick. On top here you can see it's scribed, but it's real thin, so you can't distinguish it 'cuz it's jus' a picture .... but if you look at it you can tell it's real thin 'cuz with a regular scribe .........

DR: It looked like an N-E- andt looks like either a V or an upside down A, an' then an upside down V an then an upside down A. ...... .


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D: N- E-V-A-R. .... well no ... but now that you're tellin' me N-E-V-A-R or N-E-V-A would be NEVA and the AF is his crew. Actually, he has a tag in the bathroom at my work. ... we wouldn't even let the customers use our washrooms, there use to be a couple grafs that work there ... but it was never him ....... .it was a few other guys. I don't know ... he tags off .. .1 met him once, but. .....

DR: Neva ..... .

30.54 D: Sometimes he writes N-E-V-A for short, but it'll be N-E-V-A-R. .. he tags the back of the

buses a lot. There's another on 104-8 ..... N-E-V-A here in this pinkish, he also was out writing with Vent 'cuz you see the exact same paint an' exact same kind of tip, that's kinda thin an' kinda fans out, which is probably a tip from a old an' ends kinda cap. We also got Vent.. . .I think we were talkin' about Vent jus a little bit ago maybe .... on one of his other pictures ..... we're on 104-8. He jus' I've seen a few Neva pieces, but they weren't very good,

34.01

he ...... he's basically a tagger. Oh Vent... I was talkin' about right above him ..... he's jus' a tagger ..... there here together an' then they're real together .. so now you know they write .... this one on the glass one .... l04-7, you might not have been able to tell that they wrote together, but now seein' them in two places again in the same color it's not like oh another coincidence. Roltocus ..... ? I don't know either these two other ones ... people jus' tag ... they scribble their stuff ... like it could say one ofa thousand things, really. 104-9 LK that's a gang. Latin King Nation ... but I don't know why the N it backwards. 21 Click .... .in a, I guess a park board bathroom .... 1 04-12 .... .1 don't got nothin' to say about these guys ........ I know a bunch of' em, they're jus' little punks. I'm cool with 'em, don't get me wrong, but.. ....... ifit's all in the same park over there by myoid school. ............. see the thing is ... do they wanna be a gang or do they wanna be a click. .. you ask 'em an' they ah .... they're a click. .. but they try to act like a gang.

D: Alright, let's start now on 105-2 - Prism 13 612 probably click they're not really a graffiti group, kinda like a 2-1.. ...... an' here we go on 105-3 - we got Vent and Neva together again .... this is that same wall over by the bomb shelter like three blocks away .. .1 like to climb when I was little. An' there they are together again. 105-4 - I didn't see this one before ... C-D-A-O-T-T-A-O-W-N-D .. .1 can't read this tag, but I know a bunch of the kids in WND an' I think they mighta let somebody in new, but it's kinda .... .it's not really very good, it's not very distinct an' plus on the chrome ... how it's like it fans out like that...they should have cleaned it up again with the blue ... the blue that they're usin .... .it looks kinda pretty when you first look at it...but you look at detail ..... an' it's like --oh, I guess---no color on the inside or nothin' an' you see drip, drip, drip ....... .it could say one to ten thousand things. Sometimes artists do stuff, just abstract stuff an' they'll jus' do forms and stuff that won't really say anything at all an' you won't even know, I don't know.

DR: Is that close to a production? 36.13


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D: Yeah --- that's a produc ... .'cuz ya see they painted it ..... in the beginnin' here on 105-5, I couldn't tell you what it said on this first one, it's probably done by Ewok 'cuz that's his style ... an' I kinda see a K an' a W but I couldn't.. ... don't quote me ... oh now here's Ewok's stuff right here ... but it only goes to there .... but, E - W - 0 an' then K. .... wait a minute .. .1et me look at it.. .. E - W -that's his little 0 --- it's real wild style .... but the second piece here it says EWOK in there somewhere .... Oh I see his E, but .... .1 don't know ..... .

K: We think we have a production piece by the King's D: Well no .... production piece done by Ewok, Mucho and Kan or Kon, but yeah ......... . DR: So, Ewok is the King?

38.11 D: Well ... yeah ... .1 guess ...... .1 don't try any swingin' or nothin' .. .I'll say I'm the King but

yeah ... he's got the most stuffup ya know, that people have seen .... so he's the one with the most. 105-6 .... .it's a .. .1 could jus' say nice try ... done by Yen ... man, I've seen so much pretty stuff done by him, but this is so hideous ... even ifhe was drunk there's no excuse for this kinda of ... this obscenity .. J don't know .. .1 don't want to get into it. Agres - A-G-R-E-S #105-7, it's pretty nice, pretty clean, ya know .... I never heard of this kid before, but this is in throw up .... well it's pretty nice, except for the fact that the stars all fade out at the end .... he might of ran out of green .... stuff like that happens. But, the starts are neat, that's the thing ... the drips ... .1 think he did the drips on the bottom because it started dripping an he's like" aw man - well 1 jus' do drips along the whole bottom - that'll look real cool" 'cuz of the fact that's .... but ya know, sometimes you can paint - an' it's not so good. 105-8 - Nims is short for Nimble. This is one of the kids that 1 first, first started writing with. ATD, STD, WND, PTA, SAN, 96 .... he's in all those crews ... he's real good, now he's been writin' quite some time ... so now all the crews are like come be with us, come be with us ...... an' he's like alright...sure. Most writers will be like "I don't want to get in with ya all", but he just wants to be cool with everybody, so it's like sure I'll be in, sure I'll be in, ya know, ... so he jumped in all the crews. 105-90.: ...

DR: ???? D: Well, I'm gonna take a stab at it.. .. this looks like Press's work an' ifit was, this kid Press, he

was kicked outta the WND Crew for jus' disrespectin' other writers an' bein' so ( ) egotistical, like "Yeah -I'm better than you man .... Oh yeah shit.. . .I'm better than these guys an' these guys" ... ya know. So ah, they were like Oh man forget it you're out of our crew.

DR: ???? D: Well, no ..... doesn't really. DR: ???? 42.23 D: 105-10 - Why did you take a picture of this -- instead of all the graffiti stuff. Well, LK .... .1

guess somebody in the Latin Kings gang is tryin' to maybe be ....... Oh .... no, no, no, sorry take it back..this is done by Logik, he is a graf artist...there's another one 105-12 and there's another 105-14. Four done by the same kid who did this ugly little throw up here. Um .. .1 think this AKB 105-11 is also done by Logik. . .it' s his same style .. .1 actually think 1 might


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have seen this ... 105-12 that's Logile, it says Logik -L-O-G-I-K which is his tag an' then on the right hand see you can see it says Logik, plenty a times. 105-13 is the beginning ofLogik piece that says Logik, which isn't really a very good piece, it might have been dark ... .I don't know.

DR: Is that kind oflettering ... .is that the wild style lettering? Ijus' did a lot of reading ........ . 44.07 D: It's not to wild style ... .it's kinda mellow wild style .... 'cuz it's still pretty legible. Wild style

is like nonlegible --"what the Hell does that say?" is wild style. An on the side Crisis Chin, Coro, Denz, Crest, Mber, Intel an Euro those are all people in the crew, NTS an' then on the top SCA, Zion, Del, Monk, Hibred, that's the SCA crew ... that's kinda the AKB Crew broken up .... they kinda split it up into the other crews. 105-14 that shows the picture of the whole thing, it's kinda like the top with the rollin' paint, 'cuz the first two rows are real nice an' neat. Paint over .... .I guess this isjus' kind of his little domain, spot I guess, 'cuz he's jus' kinda taken over. 105-15 - W - A - R ... maybe it's jus' W - A - R. .. I guess an' this other thing isjust kind ofa .... maybe that's a symbol for a crew or something. Look at those little bugs, aren't those neat.. .......... they're stenciled ...... .

K: Now, is that a pretty good piece? 45.54 D: It's pretty good ... except for the fact that he cheated, is what we'll call it, 'cuz of the fact that

he used stencils in this part and in the star right there. That means without a doubt, even if he didn't he'll be said that he used stencils for all the cuts that he did, jus' 'cuz he used those stencils and you can tell they're stencils ... it'll be like ... "ah ... forget him ... he used stencils" so ....... "he cheated ...... " Here's 105-16 that says War ...... oh Warm ... that's a M I guess, it's an ugly M, but it says Warm .. .it's the same person who did the last one and this one there's not stencils so you wouldn't say he cheated. 105-17 is Spel those are just two characters, he didn't write his name anywhere, but I know his characters with the eye's kinda shaded out like that on the side, so I know him, I seen 'em ... he's the one that got kicked out of the WMB.

K: How come? D: I told you about that already. K: The one that was so arrogant? D: Yeah. 105-18 B52 is who did this .... the letters on this are real real bad, but the colorin'

pretty nice, I guess .... did you get a picture of this one next to it here? It's a real good one. 105-19 .... Dion, also at the beginning of the Graffiti Season, he ahh, did ... he was doin' a lot of stuff an' then he jus', actually the stuff he was doin' was pretty nice, he was on the way to a crown, but he jus' kinda stopped. 105-20 -- Plot...I guess that's jus' kinda a tagger comin to see the pieces .. 'cuz I never heard of him. 105-21 . .is Logilc again, the one that kinda took the whole little comer of the wall for himself--AKB .... his crew.

DR: Where is Logik on a scale ........ ? 48.50 D: Like a 1 - 1O? Like when he does characters he's really up there, his characters are real

nice .... but letter style an' everything else are ....... aren't very good .... he's an artist really ... he's


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not really a graff artist .... he's like a ... he's a painter. WSA..I05-22 .. .I don't have anything to say about that, it's a tag, really .... I mean people who write on the tracks ... .I mean those tracks are totally written over, jus' cuz ... so people are like I was here lookin' at the pictures an' they got bored or whatever ......... ' cuz people will go over there an' they talk an' then they're waitin an' they like lets write my tag or whatever ........ l05-23 ..... this little character up here was done by Meta .... his newest tag is Kilz. Like up in the comer it says love .. .like he's givin' his love to Pes, NtnlS, Pock, Kims, Mesh, Nu, Beamer, Zion and Neeo ...... .I don't know that's jus' who he's really cool with that are other writers, really. Like that's mostly his crew, Nu is his little brother, Mesh is one of the kids he used to write with way, way back. Most all the rest are in his crew. This is one of those ---105-24 -- was this shown to you by Graflnk .. .in St. Paul?

DR: Minneapolis.

51.00 D: 'Cuz this is the kind of stuff that they use to do from GrafInk .. .like kids would take a whole

wall an' do it real nice, like it is ... they'd buy the paint for 'em an' everything, an' they have to sign a contract that says that they'll stop doin' it illegally. That was in about 1994, so that was a while ago. 105-25-- that's a couple of characters there.

K: The characters are all the way from '95, so they're considered pretty good? So, they left them?

D: Well, this wall looks like it's a one time deal an' it's never been painted over, due to the fact that probably the place paid 'em or somethin' an they're like go ahead an' write on our stuff, ya know, an' nobody messed with it since then.

DR: ???? D: 106-3A ---K - E - R, Ker ... .I couldn't tell ya .... Oh is this on Bloomington and Lake Street? DR: It's right around there ...... . 52.31 D: yeah .... a friend of mine helped to the first one, I never walked all the way down the alley,

I was just there when he was doin' his. This stuffwas done by Kept A-W-R. AWR is one of the biggest, that's an all world crew, like there's people in Europe an' then like Germany an' all over the whole world that are A WR. You get in there by like ..... sometimes one of' em will go to like ... they go to different cities to try to ... to do other graff stuff, to do other graffiti stuffan' they'll see some kids that are the top of the line an' be like "well, you want in" and they're all over the magazines A WR, 'cuz they're all over the whole world .... .it stands for All World Region or Rank or something.

K: Ok, we've move to the car. 53.43 D: 106-25A .. Embe ... MCA, ATD an SDK, .... well Embe back at the wall offame, he did a lot,

a lot of stuff an changed his tag to Mber an' then he changed it to Monk which is you saw ....... he's in a heavy metal crew .... so he's kind ofa dick, this is an old tag from when he use to sign Embe an' plus you can tell 'cuz it's pretty faded. Probably when he first started, like probably when AID started two years ago, this one here ..... #106-23A is a Vents pieee - V-


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K: 55.11 D:


E-N-T and we saw a few of his tags earlier. So this is kinda jus' a nicey ... 'cuz it's not really a piece, it's jus' two colors and it's jus' pretty small an' 3-D's not really too detailed, it's old, faded ..... but it's kinda not all the way painted and they didn't like see stuff through like in the middle of the E an' the N through the green, so he jus' kind a did it, jus' to do it. Define Nice for me again, you said it was a nice piece.

No ... a nicey ... not a nice piece ... Well it's a throw up, which is usually they do like a tag .. .like V - E or V - T or something, they jus' do a few letters like taggin, they'll jus' do 'em like block letters or jus' bubble letters an' thenjus'do the two letters and maybe some color in 'em an' jus' do it quickly ..... an' jus kinda leave that up ... an' they can do it pretty quick, ya know, once they start doin it a lot, they can jus' do a quick V - E or whatever.. ...... but, this is kinda .... he took more time an' did color in it an' did all letters - added 3-D's to it - with a shadow in it.. .. so that's ........ .

DR: What do you think of the politicalness that he adds around it?

56.05 D:

58.04

Well ...... kill rap STD .... whatever that is ... that's not him. Fight sexism .... maybe he's a girl, she's a girl .... maybe that's jus' how he feels, ya know, everybody got their own feelings .... .1 say fight sexism myself, but 1 don't really write that kind of stuff on pieces, jus' 'cuz I'm not really political, trying to fight stuff. ... here's another Vent Nicey .... l06-20A .... more quickie .... like he jus' did it quick, quick an' again on the bottom, he writes fight racism ... which means he's like a political guy, ya know .... like his own thing ... again, it's a nicey .. .'cuz it's a quickie, ya know, actually this is more of a throw up, due to the fact that it's not all the way colored in at all. He probably used one can ..... an' tried to do it quick. 106-19A is Poser .. .1 haven't seen anything that he's done in a long, long time ... so this is probably pretty old, well at least a year old due to the fact 1 don't even think he's a graffer, he's moved out of state or somethin', but it's jus' some big character. An' a little Anarchy

MAS .... too. His crew is Mental Art Structure, which they been around for some time an' as crews, ya know, they were the top crew of all of them. You can't really see any of the other pieces all the way. 106-1SA .. .it's kinda ..... you can see on the right hand side that it's wrote over, what we called "it's jacked" that means somebody, ya know, it says GD, which means that some gang kid was like ahhh .... .1 don't know really why they do that, it's kinda stupid really .... 'cuz like this is art .. .it's a illegal spot ya know, they did do it illegally ... but it still is art. It says ... .1 think it says Bliss .... although that writing is really sloppy for how neat this piece is an' the character, also. B - L -I - S it looks like a K on the end ..... somebody jus' did little arrows, it kinda looks like a K, but. .... l 06-17 A is that Zion that 1 talked about earlier that jus' kinda stopped, this is older 'cuz of the fact that he hasn't really done anything lately. An it says his crew--Tel, AKB, NTS an' then Delt here on the right side .. FOK, which is one of the smaller crews . .like .. .let's start a crew man .... but, as you can see they're kinda together ... .it's kind of a Production Nicey, 'cuz it's like big, they both did it together ... but they're jus' nicies like they're jus' kinda "quick let's do it, a couple colors an' we'll jus' do


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1.01.38


somthin' an be outta here". They usually don't do lots of big real nice stuff in illegal spot...'cuz you end up gettin chased by the police or whatever, an' it's hard to paint at night, ya gotta do it in the day ....... l06-16A -- I think this is done by Infatec, which is now Infect which is what the piece says or well ......... which is a new tag ... .it' s a little bit shorter.. .. this is a piece right here. It's pretty nice ... when he first started out his stuffwasn't that good.

Actually, in the beginnin; I went over a few of his pieces, jus 'cuz they weren't very good an you usually try to go over the stuff that not as good first ............ so this is a little bit newer then the beginnin of the summer ..... he took a lot more time ..... l06-8A is N-E short for Nevar, which we talked about before, who does a lot of scribin' an' who also was writin' with Yen, the other one. Sometimes he writes Neva ... NE is kinda his like throw up, ya know, he does the N E, but he must.. .... this must have been kind of a busy corner .. 'cuz he jus' did the N E quick. .. might have been in the day time ... he's still tryin' to get his name up ...... ya know. See this is a mean streak, is what it's called, an' you can see on the right hand side of the N how it's kinda skippin' ... 'cuz it means he's doin' it real quick. . .it's kinda like a piece of oiled chalk that you gotta when you go real fast.. . .like crayons do ....... kinda skip a little bit. 106-9A it

1.03.06 says Bis .... this kid ... oh there's lots of ( ) for this kid, he's jus' a tagger an' he ended up having trouble with jus' about every singe graffiti artist in the whole city, due to the fact that it wasn't really very good, wasn't very good at all.. .. an' then he crossed people out...ifyou cross people out an' then write your name ... you like have trouble with 'em .... so, I'm surprised to see that this isn't crossed out like right here ... 'cuz ..... how long ago did you take this picture .............. a month and a half ..... maybe he's still taggin' on the side or else the graff's haven't seen this one, but.. ............ surprises me that it's not crossed out...with this kid's there's trouble .. .1 don't know anybody that I hang out, that I do grafwith that doesn't have trouble with this kid. 106-10A, this is jus' a toy its' real .... they don't have controLthoseare all together and these are all apart .... on the quotations ... .it's kinda scribbly .... .'cuz usually when a graffiti does their tag ... you can see that this guy did one letter at a time, usually when they do one letter at a time, letter will look real nice, otherwise they'll try to do all their letters together, ya know, connected so they can jus' be done an' it's still kinda legible, you can still read it, but it's real ugly. 107-2 is kinda funny 'cause it says Dead End

1.05.40 Street an' it says GD. That's kinda like Yeah GD is a dead end street, that's kinda funny to ... 107-3 this must be a St. Paul, this is a throw up . .it's not colored, but it's still a throw up. RB and a R-E-V -A-B . .is his tag. Revah. Or maybe it's a W. R-E-W -A-B and then PAis his crew. And he just quick did a little bubble letter fo just two letters which is a throw up ..... most people when they do a throw up they don't write their tag ... they'lljus' do their throw up an' jus' let it be known ....... so, this is a throw up. 107-4 KOPS is the tag, W 0 ..... an' this is kind of a throw up, but this is a toy throw up 'cuz it's real ugly an' maybe that's a W, ya know, who knows, that could be a K is the first letter.. .. ifthat's a K to him .... phew .. .1 don't know, that's how you can kinda determine, ya know, if they can't do their letters very good, you can


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tell that his writin' style is jus' kinda KOPS .... .it's not even good writin' like I's meanin' like english class an' stuff, he can't really write an' it's all sloppy like that, it's not connected in any kind of graffiti style. 107-5 REST, that kid used to write quite some time ago and his tag was everywhere, I haven't seen that for years now. Just under rest in purple, Duxt, never seen it before. Under that is Vent 26, sometimes he writes 26 but usually just Vent. Vent 26 is when he first started writin', that's his tag .... that's jus' how he writes I guess. MCA an' AID are in those crews. Yen 34, we saw some a real bad throw up of his earlier, usually his stuff is pretty good an' then underneath her wrote HM with Crew MCA,. AK.B an' he

1.08.32 threw up one of the kids Much an' the One ..... so he threw .... ya know, when you write someone elses name or your crew, you're jus' kind a throwin' 'em up like "yeah - I'm doin' this for my friend or whatever", it's kinda what they do. 107-9 ... here's another Vent 26. Again, it's an older one because he wrote the 26 after it and now he jus' writes Vent, it's a tag again .... so, he kinda does both taggin' an stuff ...................... We got a couple of burners. Burners is another word for a piece. MGWTCN is that an N. Let's see his girlfiiends name is Nicki ... Eros ... he does a lot for his girlfiiend .... yeah he tags in pieces. 107-23 .... .I'm seein' all kinds ofthings here, like ....... could be a 0 I don't know I couldn't tell you what the name is. It's pretty nice, but it's kinda like how letters are kinda like small to

1.11.24 big ... an' this choppy little Mohawk thing is kinda ugly ... how it's proportioned ... big, little ..... usually they should all be the same an' it's kinda curvy an' this is like straight over here, so it's kinda like the style ............. l07-25 & 24 you can kinda see the same ore ..... an' then ah this is a APK piece by Abys. I haven't seen his stuff for awhile either, but he was pretty good as you can see he was pretty good, an' then it got jacked right here .... an' then Abys got wrote over right here, they kinda ruined his stuff .... APK it shows you what it stands for right here .... Aerosol Planetary Konspiracy, it jus' like what the crew ... .it' jus' there name. 108-3 these are some burned trains, it's jus' some pieces on trains. Usually when people paint trains they call it Bum Trains. This is, I can't tell who the first one is, but the second one here with the yellow and brown, that's Abuse an' lately he's been tryin' to do some stuff with like ... with the beige an' the leather brown an' then the dark brown. An' it's workin' for him, usually you can't tell what his stuff says, 'cuz it's like so abstract wild style ... but it looks cool. It's kinda like what we saw before at the bomb shelter with no color in it. ..... this is probably done by the same person, 'cuz how they wrote all around it like that, with the stacked pieces ya know, the dimensions. So that's pretty good for a train, 'cuz trains tend to drip a little bit.. .. so, it's kinda hard to get your style goin' on a train. Ah, you got a picture of my boy Simpo ...... S-I-M-P-O on 108-4, it says Simpo which is short for Simps when he started writin'. This is an older one from the beginning, 'cuz he showed me all his flicks, or all his pictures, we jus' call 'em flicks.

K: What are flicks? D: Just pictures. K: Pictures of all of his pieces?


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1.14.34 D:


Yeah .... he showed me his flicks from that summer. An' then on the side here, Pete, Nims, Press, that was when Press was still in the crew ... an' Abuse ... that was right when the crew first started 'cuz there were lots more members .... WNB now, usually they'll throw up their crew, like "yeah -- that's my crew". This is an older one. As you can see his letter style is kinda ugly ... not good ....... he's a friend of min e .. .I paint with him a few times, but this is an older one 'cuz .... the colors as a color theory ......... .

DR: Now, WNB what is that .. .I mean, it's like a space guy .... 1.15.25 D:

K: D:

It's right here ... well people like to draw like space guy stuff, but that's like an astronaut... yeah ... but it's not the same character ... they just like to draw space stuff or paint.. .. 108-6 it says, Mature, maybe .... anyway it's not very good, the yellow's not really colored in .. .it's drippin' on the red ... red, usually people don't use 'cuz it drips so much, but it's not really proportioned .... like at the beginning of the M you can still see the stuff in the back. .. but he's on his way to gettin' somewhere .... but the red was a bad choice .... he didn't leave his name for us. 108-7 - I think this is Logik - his style ... let me see here ........... . Is that a ruined piece though? No .... that's jus' like he chose to do that, jus' to be kinda have it be a little bit crazy in the middle here. That's like aRK. .....

DR: Can you see what it says ..... .

1.17.20 D: I think it says HURRIO or TO .... .I think it says Hurto, but what kind of thing is that to

write .... sometimes, when I first started paintin' I jus' kinda picked out letters jus' 'cuz I liked to do H's and do A's an' R's an' jus' have it say nothin' but say it was a piece, an' I didn't really care if you did it wild style enough. 108-10 these are a couple niceies done by toys, 'cuz they're not.. .. well they're jus' not very good at all. I don't know really what to tell you about these, they're jus' not very good at all.

DR: Soemone went through a whole lot of work to get down there to do that too? 1.18.41 D: Well, they were havin' fun I bet.. ... ya know, it's fun to paint. They may do better now, they

may have quit. This is what? This is Heaven ...... 1 08-14 is heaven, I guess ..... this is done in marker, I mean this is .. .it looks pretty cool an' everything, wow, I don't know who would take enough time to do this in marker. They should try an' get a can an' do some paintin', that would be more fun for 'em. 108-19 AKB Crew ..... is written across the top, the colorful ones. This is done by Eros, that S is very pronounceable, but I can tell by the fact that .... actually it's done by Crisis and Eros, it says Crisis there with the arrow and then TK is Eros, just Eros is what he writes with the crew from San Francisco an' then above it he wrote Nicks, which is short for Nicki which is his girlfriend, an' jus' about everytime when he use to do his old pieces he'd write his girlfriend's name, jus' 'cuz he loves her, I don't know. But, this is old due to the fact the letter style .... this is Crisis's style right here .... but, he progressed it an' he's changed it a 10t.. . .I can tell by the A, it's an older style A. .. how he


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use to do it an' how he does it now that that's not how his style looks any more at all. On 1.20.56

K:

1.22.25 D:

K: D: DR:

the bottom right here it says Crest and AKB wrote on it, they were jus' writing allover it, jus' 'cuz they were toy killin' and crossed it out an' stuff, jus' 'cuz they don't like to see stuff that's wack. .. that's why it's hard for people to start ya know, 'cuz people ... .if you do somethin' that's not very good, but you try ... you spent money on your paint an' everythin' an' someone crosses your stuffout.. . .it's like "ah .... man ....... " an' if your real sensitive, that's how it was when I started, they crossed my stuff out, an' if you're real sensitive ya know you'll be like "Ah .. .Ijus' quit...forget it" an' they'll jus' give up, jus' be out, but you jus' gotta get over it an' jus' get back out... For some people it'll be like fuel.. . .like "I'm gonna get back out an' do way better ...... " That's how it was for me, but some people like Crest, I never seen that again, anywhere an' it's 1994 that they wrote over it, so ..... they were probably jus' like "ahh .... jus' forget it.. .. we'll jus' quit writin", ya know, an' gave in to the whole thing. That's how a lot of these who don't really get started 'cuz of that same kinda of "let's forget it" ..... just give up. Is it harder to get started now, than it was before because they're cracking down so much on walls and there's a real effort in not allowing it?

I never heard about anybody cracking down on it. Well, I use to , when I first started I use to run so much from the police so much more than anytime now. But, I use to paint a lot more at the Uptown Greenway, than downtown .... but really I think it's less now, than it was before .... to tell you the truth. What else do we need to ask you? I don't know. All right, I'm reading all this stuff, right...on Graffiti Ink. They got this packet that I read and they talked about MAS, Mental Art Structure and they got them believing .... they're telling them it's Minneapolis Art Society.

1.23.25 D: DR: D:

No .... that's just bologna. I laughed too. But, actually if they interviewed any ofthem .... chances are they'll make somethin' up, due to the fact that they don't want their crew to be known about ya know, it's kinda like an underground graffiti gang.


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