ram jethmalani's rs speech on lokpal
TRANSCRIPT
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-MKS-TMV-DS/4G/6.15
THE LOKPAL AND LOKAYUKTAS BILL, 2011 (CONTD.)
SHRI RAM JETHMALANI (RAJASTHAN): Mr. Chairman, Sir, better
late than never during the day.
Sir, I rise to explain why today I am totally opposed to this Bill. I
dont know whether we, all of us, realise that the country is passing
through a very critical moment in its history. It is that crucial moment
in our history where if we dont make a sensible response to the
imperatives of the situation, we shall suffer for years and years, if not
for decades, in the future. It is, therefore, necessary to understand
what are the essentials of the present situation which needs to be
dealt with by the united wisdom of this whole House, forgetting the
party loyalties, forgetting the party positions and, if necessary, rising
to the level of our total intellectual and moral independence.
Sir, let us go back to the history of corruption. Corruption is not
a discovery by Anna Hazare. It is not a discovery of the year 2010 or
2011. It was discovered long ago when India had one of the best
Prime Ministers that this country has ever produced. A better Prime
Minister than him, I believe, we have not produced till today, and that
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was the great Lal Bahadur Shastri. He was a Congress man and I
have been fighting the Congress for ages, but my respect for that
great Prime Minister of this country remains totally undiluted and in its
old pristine form. He was the one who warned the nation that
corruption had made progress at a galloping pace and it had risen
from the lowest levels to the highest decks of our political life. He
almost told us that it had reached the State and the Central
Government as well. Unfortunately, Providence did not spare him for
the good of the nation for long and, again, we relapsed into that
condition in which we were before he drew our attention to this great
disaster that was pending. An honest judge, quite a rarity, at some
time in our countrys history, honestly enforced the election law and
set aside the election of a Prime Minister of this country. What
happened? The Prime Minister who had sworn that the law and the
Constitution of this country would be preserved at all costs, instead of
meekly submitting to an honest court decision.... (Interruptions)...
THE MINISTER OF OVERSEAS INDIAN AFFAIRS (SHRI VAYALAR
RAVI): Are you disagreeing with the disqualification of the Prime
Minister? (Interruptions)... What is the reason for disqualification?
(Interruptions)... Do you agree with that, as a lawyer?
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SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: I am sorry, you know nothing about the
court work. (Interruptions)...
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jethmalani, please continue. (Interruptions)..
(Followed by 4H/VK)
VK/4H/6.20
(MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN in the Chair)
SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: Sir, the word * is unparliamentary.
Please remove it. (Interruptions). Sir, lakhs of people were sent to
jail during the Emergency. (Interruptions). He is proud of it!
SHRI BALAVANT ALIASAPTE: Sir, the word * is unparliamentary.
It should be immediately removed.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I will look into it. If it is unparliamentary, it
will be removed.
SHRI RAVI SHANKAR PRASAD: Sir, it is unparliamentary. This word
* is unparliamentary.
SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, I am not worried about a little abuse
from anybody. I have withstood abuse all my life and I have done it
patiently. But ultimately it is those who abused me have suffered for it
in the rest of their life.
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Sir, the good people in this country were locked in our jails while
the bad people either kept quite or cooperated with what was
happening in the country. This was the result of the death of a great
Prime Minister, Shri Lal Bahadur Shastri, that corruption went on in
this country and there was zero tolerance for prevalence of corruption.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The word * is unparliamentary. It can
be removed.
SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Today, Anna Hazare has done one thing
that he has brought out the consciousness of the nation to this great
evil of corruption and even you have to pay a silent tribute to that man
because you said that you appointed a Group of Ministers to go into
the issue of corruption and study it. Obviously, you confess that
corruption has not gone down, that corruption has assumed such
proportions that it now requires to be seriously examined. That is your
confession by the very fact of the mention of this great Group of
Ministers appointed, of which my friend, Shri Narayanasamy, spoke
this morning. But I wish to give a bit of advice to Shri Narayanasamy
* Expunged as ordered by the Chair.
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because he is a very good friend of mine. When you want to introduce
a Bill, please make it as sweet as possible. You don't use that kind of
harsh language that you used this morning. Whatever sympathy
people had, you lost a bit of that sympathy. But, Sir, the fact remains
that the crowds that Anna Hazare collected and which you saw and
which did unnerve you because you went and touched his feet and
negotiated a settlement with him for a long time, those crowds did not
know anything about the Lokpal. What they knew was that they were
the sufferers of corruption in their everyday life. At a casual inquiry
from one of the persons present in the crowd, I asked, "Why are you
here in this crowd?" The man said, "Sir, don't ask me this. My
mother died and I went to take a death certificate to cremate my
mother. I was told to come the next morning. I had to fork out Rs.
1,000 before I could cremate my mother and get the death
certificate." This is the state of corruption today which is all
pervading. Please do not gloat over the fact which your Press has
now started circulating that Anna is no longer attracting crowds. The
crowds have lost their sense of novelty, but they have made up their
mind that they are going to throw out this Government in the next
election. Please be aware of it and speak in those terms that you are
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conscious of the people's wrath. My good friend, Dr. Abhishek
Singhvi, for whom I have such great respect...(Interruptions). Sir,
will you please stop them from disturbing me?
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please sit down.
SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: It is very relevant. It may not be relevant to
you. Dr. Abhishek Singhvi is a very, very dear friend and a colleague
at the Bar. In a somewhat irrelevant context this morning during his
speech, he mentioned the great proverb that 'power corrupts and
absolute power corrupts absolutely'. I wish to remind my young friend
that this proverb has been amended long ago.
(Contd. By 4J)
RG/6.25/4J
SHRI RAM JETHMALANI (contd.): I wish to remind him of the
amendment of that proverb. The amendment of that proverb is,
Power corrupts, but the prospect of losing power corrupts
absolutely.
So, now, we are meeting a situation of that tragic kind
with which we have to deal with. But, Sir, there is another aspect of
this corruption. While this corruption was growing by leaps and
bounds, what else was happening to the most important and
prestigious investigating agency of this country? I am talking of the
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CBI. The CBI was born, and it owes its origin to some corruption that
came to light during the years of war. Many people had made large,
illicit profits; they had to be hounded out and punished. Then, the CBI
was created for the first time to prosecute those people after securing
evidence of their conviction and guilt. Sir, I must record my
appreciation of the work which the CBI did for many years. I have
seen their investigations in the early years of my practice at the Bar.
They never arrested people. They never practiced third degree torture
against anybody. After completing their investigation in the most
lawful manner, they would submit a charge sheet in the Court and tell
the accused, Tomorrow, you come and appear in the Court. We are
submitting a charge sheet against you. That reputation, no longer,
exists. I wish to tell you now what the state of the CBI has become
today. One of the most important points which I wish to make is,
what should be done to the CBI and what should be done about the
CBI. In my dissenting note on the Report on the Lokpal Bill, which I
have submitted to the Standing Committee, I have written a three-
page long essay on the disgraceful state of affairs so far as the most
important investigating agency in this country is concerned. I had the
greatest respect for it once upon a time, and today, I am so utterly
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disappointed. But, I realize, we cannot do without the CBI. The CBI
has to exist as a primary investigating agency in this country. The
question is: What do you do about it? Why has it happened? I
believe that you must read with me two paragraphs. I want to inform
the House about the two judgements delivered by the Supreme Court,
one in the year 2000, in which they said, The CBI had to explain this
averment made in para 18 of the writ petition, if really it wanted to
convey to the Court as to the non-availability of Part II file. Further,
they said, That apart, the explanation given in the second affidavit of
CBI also discloses a sad state of affairs prevailing in the organization.
In that affidavit, CBI had stated before the Court that Part II file with
which the Court was concerned, was destroyed unauthorisedly with
an ulterior motive by none other than an official of CBI in collusion with
a senior officer of the same organisation which fact, if true, reflects
very poorly on the integrity of CBI. This was a judgement given in
2000, and I dont wish to bother the House with the sordid facts of the
case. Then, there was the earlier judgement in 1996, and that 1996
judgement was, perhaps, more vitriolic than even the 2000 judgement
in which they said, The High Court has disbelieved the version of the
CBI and has criticised it for suggesting such a funny explanation. A
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biased investigation of the type at hand from the CBI has, indeed,
pained us because the people of this country have still high hopes
from it which would get dashed if bias creeps into its investigations. I
dont wish to give the recent examples. The recent examples are too
recent, and they will, unnecessarily, irritate some persons who have
these false loyalties, false loyalties about which they are more
concerned. Sir, we cannot do away with the CBI. Whatever force
you substitute in its place will also, by some other name, remain the
CBI of the country.
(Continued by 4K)
Kgg/4k/6.30
SHRI RAM JETHMALANI (CONTD.): I suggest; and, I am not
prepared to support this Bill until and unless at least two conditions
are satisfiedthat we must repeal section 4 of the Delhi Police
Establishment Act which was passed when the war ended and the
CBI was created as a force. It said in that section that the power of
superintendence shall be lodged and vested in the Central
Government. I suggest that this power must now be divested from the
Central Government. It must be transferred and vested in the Lokpal
which you create under the Lokpal Bill and that is the only way to
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make some changes in the character of the CBI. And I have no doubt
that the CBI will live up to it because in the CBI, I am afraid, there are
honourable people who are prepared to do their duty, but they are
prevented from doing their duty by the kind of association which they
seem to have with some of the Ministers in the Cabinet.
My friends in this House will today admit that there are acts of
corruption which the CBI should have detected long ago, which now
the Supreme Court claims to have detected. That is why the present
failure of the CBI. Sir, make the CBI independent; subject the power
of superintendence vested in the Lokpal and that will remove a good
part of at least my objections to this kind of a Bill. The CBI is willing to
be relieved; there are honest people in the CBI who come and tell me,
We wish to be relieved from this incubus; we are prepared to go and
work under the Lokpal, if necessary. But, somebody must make up
his mind and to speak the truth and say that the CBI should remain an
independent organisation. The ex-Chief Justice of India, Shri Verma,
said the other day that the CBI today is not independent. It is not
independent because of the misuse of the power under section 4,
which the Central Government exercises habitually. There are other
powers which the Central Government inevitably possesses over the
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CBI. These powers have to be relegated to some other body
altogether.
Then, Sir, the latest friend, Mr. Narayanasamy, I want to
communicate some facts to you, while present in this House, which
probably even you may not know as a Minister. Sir, reliance has been
placed on what? On trying to take away the autonomy of the States,
their legislative independence and autonomy which the Constitution
creates, which nobody is in a position to destroy. What are you relying
upon? You are relying upon the Convention Against Corruption which
the U.N. has passed. Therefore, you claim that this is legislation under
article 253 of the Constitution of India.
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Sir, the biggest * which this Government has perpetrated on
this nation is about what you have done to this Convention. This
Convention was promulgated by the U.N. many years ago. It was
promulgated by the year 2003, but it was late in the year 2003 the
Government then in power was busy in organizing the next years
elections and they did not have much time. But, this Convention
became ready for ratification in the year 2005. In 2005, your
Government was in power. When did you ratify it? You took six years
to ratify! From 2005 to 2011, what were you doing? When this
Convention was open, you did not choose to ratify it and you ratified it
when? You ratified it, for the first time, four or five days before the
Supreme Court was to deliver its judgment on the black money case.
By your secret sources of information, which are superior to the
sources of anybody else, you must have discovered what the
Supreme Court is going to hold against you. The Supreme Court
delivered a thumping judgment in which they said that your
Government has done nothing to recover this money which is stashed
in foreign banks.
-----------------------------------
* Expunged, as ordered by the Chair. (Contd. by tdb/4l)
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TDB-MP/4L/6.35
SHRI RAM JETHMALANI (CONTD.): And, may I remind you that the
talk about money being stashed in foreign banks arose for the first
time in 1991. It arose as a result of the pressure of democracies in the
world over the Swiss banking system. The Swiss always claimed and
became rich by mentioning to everybody that we respect the
customers confidentiality. Vast amounts of wealth from all over the
world, illicit wealth of smugglers, of prostitution dealers, of drug
dealers, all came to the Swiss Bank. The Swiss became rich, but
somehow, sometimes, even the owners of the bank account died
without their heirs knowing what money has been left. Switzerlands
prosperity depended upon these secret bank accounts. But the
House would be glad to know that the world democracies realised that
this is a great fraud on the people of the world. If there is destitution, if
there is poverty, if there is this demeaning living condition in which
even a beast will revolt, it is because of the corruption that moneys are
brought from all over the world and stashed in these accounts. I am
ashamed as an Indian citizen, and you ought to be a little more
ashamed than me that in 1991, the most prestigious paper in the
country of Switzerland, a magazine whose name I have forgotten, it will
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be found in one of my articles, that magazine gave the names, the
photographs, the bank account numbers, the amounts in the bank
accounts of 14 international thugs. Sir, I am ashamed to say that the
fourteenth person, the fourteenth-named person was * They are not
prepared to tell the people of this country the stark truth which you ought
to know. (Interruptions)
THE MINISTER OF OVERSEAS INDIAN AFFAIRS (SHRI VAYALAR
RAVI): Sir, I am on a point of order. (Interruptions) Sir, I am on a point
of order. (Interruptions) He cant say all this. (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You have to substantiate it. (Interruptions)
SHRI VAYALAR RAVI: Sir, I am on a point of order. (Interruptions)
SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR: You were the Law Minister.
(Interruptions)
SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, he cannot make allegations on the * of
the country.
SHRI VIKRAM VERMA: Sir, he has not mentioned the name of any *
(Interruptions) Why are they guilty conscious? (Interruptions)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Expunged as ordered by the Chair.
SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: If you want, I will produce... (Interruptions)
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They know the name. (Interruptions)
SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, he cannot make allegation on the *
of the country on the basis of reports published in a magazine.
(Interruptions)
SHRI VIKRAM VERMA: Why are they guilty conscious?
AN HON. MEMBER: He was the Joint Secretary, and, perhaps, he
knows the name also. (Interruptions)
SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR: You were the Law Minister.
(Interruptions) Just because some newspapers published this story...
(Interruptions) You are just fighting some old case which you have
lost. (Interruptions) You are unable to prove any of the...
(Interruptions)
SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, the tragedy of this country is that we
have great orators of this kind. (Interruptions)
THE MINISTER OF SHIPPING (SHRI G.K. VASAN): Sir, it should be
expunged. (Interruptions)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Expunged as ordered by the Chair.
SHRI VAYALAR RAVI: Sir, I have a point of order. (Interruptions)
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MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: What exactly is your point of order?
(Interruptions) Please speak, one-by-one. (Interruptions) What is your
point of order?
SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, my point of order is, he cannot make an
allegation on a former * without any evidence. On the basis of a report
published in a magazine or newspaper, he cannot make these
allegations. (Interruptions)
SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR: Sir, all this has to be removed.
(Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You have to substantiate your point.
(Interruptions)
SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, you please expunge it from the record.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I will examine it. (Interruptions) I will examine
it. (Interruptions) I will examine the word because without
substantiating it, you cannot say this. (Interruptions) You have not
substantiated it. See, in all fairness, it is not correct to bring the name
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Expunged as ordered by the Chair.
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of the * of the country, and then... (Interruptions)
SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR: Sir, he is the most * (Interruptions)
SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: Sir, he is making personal allegations.
(Interruptions)
: , , refer
....()... ,
...()...
(Followed by 4m-nbr)
-TDB/NBR-SC/4M/6.40.
SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: Sir, no name has been taken
...(Interruptions)...Why this reaction?...(Interruptions)...
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: But, you are drawing the * into
it!...(Interruptions)...It is not correct ...(Interruptions)...It is not in
good taste ...(Interruptions)...* ?
..()..Remove the word *...(Interruptions)...
SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: If they don't want to run the House, let
them adjourn it...(Interruptions)...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Expunged as ordered by the Chair.
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MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: There is no question of including that
word. Remove it...(Interruptions)...
: ?..()..
..()..
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Whether you want to continue with the
debate or not...(Interruptions)...
SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, I am prepared to use the word ** as a
meaning for 'honest.' And, in that sense, I say that he is
honest...(Interruptions)...You are honest ...(Interruptions)...
SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR: *
DR. V. MAITREYAN: Sir, what is this? ...(Interruptions)...What
language is he using? ...(Interruptions)...What is he talking about?
...(Interruptions)...
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It has not gone on the record
...(Interruptions)...Nothing should go on record
...(Interruptions)...Nothing should go on record ...(Interruptions)...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
** Expunged as ordered by the Chair.
* Not recorded.
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SHRI PYARIMOHAN MOHAPATRA: *
SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR: *
SHRI B.S. GNANADESIKAN: *
SHRI SHANTARAM NAIK: *
SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: *
SHRI MOHD. ALI KHAN: *
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mohapatra, please
...(Interruptions)...Please you address the Chair
...(Interruptions)...That has been removed ...(Interruptions)...That
has been removed ...(Interruptions)...Please sit
down...(Interruptions)...All the objectionable words have been
removed ...(Interruptions)...Mr. Mohapatra, please sit down
...(Interruptions)...Please address the Chair ...(Interruptions)...That
has been removed ...(Interruptions)... Please sit down
...(Interruptions)...
SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: *
* Not recorded.
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MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please sit down
...(Interruptions)...Please sit down...(Interruption)...All the words
have been removed from the record ...(Interruptions)...Nothing has
gone on record ...(Interruptions)...
SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR: *
: ..().. ..()..
: **
? ..().. **
..().. **
- ..()..
: ..().. ,
..().., ..()..That has also
gone...(Interruptions)... Please sit down, Mr. Mani Shankar
Aiyar...(Interruptions)...Tiwariji, are you really interested in the
debate or you want to score point on each other? ...(Interruptions)...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
** Expunged as ordered by the Chair.
* Not recorded.
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SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: Sir, you tell this to them
...(Interruptions)... ..()..MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Shivanand Tiwari, please sit
down...(Interruptions)...Nothing will go on record
...(Interruptions)...
SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: Don't use the * language
...(Interruptions)...
: ..().. Please conclude now
...(Interruptions)...I think, your party has only seven minutes
...(Interruptions)...Your party has seven minutes ...(Interruptions)...
SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: You cut out this from my time
...(Interruptions)...
SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: Sir, you remove this *
episode...(Interruptions)...
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Your party has seven minutes
...(Interruptions)...Please sit down ...(Interruptions)... Please sit
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Expunged as ordered by the Chair.
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down...(Interruptions)...I cannot allow all this
...(Interruptions)...Your party has seven minutes ...(Interruptions)...
SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: Sir, seven minutes plus seven minutes.
SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, now, let me talk of the *. The * is that
on the 30th August, 2010, the Government of India and the Swiss
Federal Council signed a Protocol which would amend the existing
Double Taxation Avoidance Treaty. It is important to know what you
achieved by this and what you intended to achieve by this.
Sir, the Germans broke the Swiss secrecy laws by bribing an
employee of a Swiss bank giving him US $ 475 million as a price for
disclosing the names...(Interruptions)...
SHRI P. KANNAN: Give evidence.
SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: I will give you all evidence. I have been
writing about it. You don't have the courage even to reply.
Sir, US $ 475 million were paid to a Swiss employee. The Swiss
employee gave the names of the account holders in that bank. The
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Expunged as ordered by the Chair.
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German Government announced ...(Interruptions)...
SHRI P. KANNAN: That is whom?...(Interruptions)...
SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: I am prepared to repeat this outside the
court; sue me if you have the courage ...(Interruptions)...Sue me
outside.
SHRI P. KANNAN: He must prove it...(Interruptions)...He must give
evidence...(Interruptions)...
SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: I am not bound to give it to you
...(Interruptions)...I will give it outside ...(Interruptions)... We have
given it to the court ...(Interruptions)...
(FOLLOWED BY USY "4N")
-NBR-USY/MCM/4N/6.45
SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR: He is accusing the Government of
India of committing *. (Interruptions) That is a word which is not
justified. It is irrelevant. (Interruptions) It is unparliamentary.
(Interruptions) I suggest you, Sir, to please ask him to stop.
(Interruptions)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Expunged as ordered by the Chair.
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MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The word * has already been removed.
(Interruptions) It is unparliamentary; we are removing it.
(Interruptions) Mr. Jethmalani, I request you not to use the
unparliamentary words. (Interruptions) It has already been declared
that this word is unparliamentary. (Interruptions)
SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, you should not curtail my time for
these disturbances. (Interruptions) The Government of Germany has
made an announcement that whichever friendly country wants to
know the names of these * from their own country, they are prepared
to give that information.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Government of Germany did not use
the word *. (Interruptions) .......()
SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, those who have committed the act of
pilfering the assets of the poor people of this country, for them the
Government of Germany said that they are prepared to give that
information to every friendly country that wants to know those names.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Expunged as ordered by the Chair.
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The Americans have got those names. The Swiss have got those
names. The Germans have got those names. The French have got
those names. Many countries, in Europe, have got those names. The
Americans arrested the officers of that bank and they gave them
conditional bail on the condition that every week they would give them
more and more names. (Interruptions)
SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR: I have a point to make, Sir.
(Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mani Shankar Aiyar, you make your
point of order according to rules. (Interruptions) If you want to raise
any point of order, please tell me the rule I will look into it.
(Interruptions)
SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR: Sir, my point of order is that no one
can speak... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You please tell me the number.
(Interruptions) Under which rule? (Interruptions) You tell me what
the unparliamentary expression is, I will remove that from the record.
(Interruptions) I have removed the unparliamentary expressions.
(Interruptions) All that has been taken care of. (Interruptions)
: , ......()
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MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Nothing will go on record. (Interruptions)
SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, on 30th
of August, 2010, the
Government of India entered into a protocol with the Swiss that
protocol document has been produced on the Floor of this House. It
is available for anybody. The protocol says that we shall not seek any
information about the past; we shall seek information only about the
future. (Interruptions) They are talking about the Double Taxation
Avoidance Treaty, which applies to a businessman who is an honest
businessmen. But because of his Indian nationality, he is being taxed
in India and, at the same time, because of the place of his business he
is being taxed by Germany also. The same income is being taxed in
two countries. For avoidance of that there is Double Taxation
Avoidance Treaty. Under that Treaty, there is a mutual obligation of
sharing information, but the information can only be used for tax
purposes. We are not seeking... (Interruptions)
SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR: Sir, the board says that he has no
more time. (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I know. (Interruptions) Mr. Mani
Shankar Aiyar, please sit down. (Interruptions) Please sit down.
(Interruptions)
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(Contd. by 4o PK)
-USY/PK-GS/6.50/4O
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (CONTD.): Please sit down.
..(Interruptions).. Please sit down. ..(Interruptions)..
: , 10 ...()...
SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: Exactly ten minutes. ..(Interruptions)..
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jethmalani, I will give you another five
minutes. ..(Interruptions)... Please conclude within five minutes.
..(Interruptions)..
SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: But why? ..(Interruptions)..
SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR: Sir, I object to this.
..(Interruptions).. Why should he be given five minutes?
..(Interruptions).. Your board shows.. ..(Interruptions)..
AN HON. MEMBER: They have disturbed.... ..(Interruptions)..
SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Who are they? ..(Interruptions)..
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please sit down. ..(Interruptions)..
Please sit down. ..(Interruptions).. I cant
differentiate...(Interruptions).. Please sit down. ..(Interruptions).. It
is debate. ..(Interruptions).. Please sit down. ..(Interruptions)..
Dont force me to..... ..(Interruptions)..
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SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR: What is this, Sir? ..(Interruptions)..
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please Mr. Mani Shankar, I request you....
..(Interruptions).. Dont tell me... ..(Interruptions)..
AN HON. MEMBER: You will decide, Sir, not he. ..(Interruptions)..
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please sit down.
...()...
DR. V. MAITREYAN: They dont want to discuss. ..(Interruptions)..
They are disrupting the House. ..(Interruptions)..
SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: Sir, 15 minutes have been wasted.
..(Interruptions)..
DR. V. MAITREYAN: They dont want to discuss. ..(Interruptions)..
They know that they will be defeated. ..(Interruptions)..
SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: Sir, 15 minutes have been wasted.
..(Interruptions)..
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Venkaiah Naidu, please sit down.
..(Interruptions).. Obstruction is from both the sides. When they
speak, you obstruct. ..(Interruptions).. No, no. ..(Interruptions)..
AN HON. MEMBER: Sir, we have not disturbed at all.
..(Interruptions)..
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MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: In the House, we are seeing obstructions
from both the sides. ..(Interruptions).. When they speak, you
obstruct. ..(Interruptions).. If it is not palatable to you, you object
and if it not palatable to them, they object. ..(Interruptions)..
Obstructions are there. Please conclude. ..(Interruptions)..
SHRI VIKRAM VERMA: But there has been continuous disruption for
15 minutes. ..(Interruptions)..
SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: Sir, 15 minutes have been wasted.
...(Interruptions)..
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, no. ..(Interruptions)..
SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: Go through the record, Sir.
..(Interruptions).. About 15 minutes have been wasted.
..(Interruptions)..
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Venkaiah Naidu, I have seen the
records. That is why, I said five minutes. ..(Interruptions)..
SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: Sir, they obstructed. ..(Interruptions)..
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, he has got up. Why is he
obstructing? ..(Interruptions).. The Chair is there and the principal
speaker is there. It is between them. ..(Interruptions).. Why do
others get up? ..(Interruptions)... First, you got up, then, they got
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up. You get up, they get up. ..(Interruptions).. How can I run the
House this way? ..(Interruptions).. If you dont cooperate, how can
the Chair run the House? .(Interruptions)..
DR. V. MAITREYAN: Sir, they have more responsibility.
..(Interruptions)..
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Who asked you to get up and say?
..(Interruptions).. I have not called you. ..(Interruptions).. It is Shri
Jethmalani who has to speak. ..(Interruptions)..SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, in what form, do you want my
cooperation, may I know? ..(Interruptions)..
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Why are your Members getting up?
..(Interruptions).. Why did you get up? ..(Interruptions)..
: ...()... ,
, ...()...
, ...()...
: ...().... . : , ? ...()... ,
...()...
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jethmalani, please conclude.
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SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, after having made this bilateral treaty
with Switzerland, under which they gave up the right to ask for
information - we would not ask information about the past from you;
we will ask information only about the futureafter having signed this
document, when they came to ratify the Convention, in the
ratification, they added a condition that if there is a bilateral treaty
between the two Nations (Time-bell) the Convention does not
apply.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please conclude.
SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: This is the deception which has been
practised. After ratification, the Prime Minister went to the Press and
said, See, we have ratified the Convention after five years. This
shows that we are very much against corruption. But this is the great
act of deception. I have not trusted this Government ever.
Therefore, I say that we shall not support this Bill under any
circumstances.
(Ends)
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Shri Rajeev Shukla.
(Followed by 4P/PB)
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is conflict of interest. This is number one. ...(Interruptions)...
Number two is, judicial decision is pending in the court in the other
Bench. ...(Interruptions)... It is a conflict of interest. How can he
raise the issue in this House? And, judicial decision is also pending.
...(Interruptions)... Therefore, it should be expunged from the
record. ...(Interruptions)... Sir, I want your ruling.
...(Interruptions)... Sir, I want your ruling on that. He is a Counsel
appearing in black monies case. ...(Interruptions)... There is a
conflict of interest. So, whatever he spoke on that should be removed
from the record. ...(Interruptions)... Number one, there is a judicial
decision pending. The matter has gone to the larger Bench.
Therefore, he cannot raise the issue; on two counts, Ram
Jethmalanis speech on black money should be removed.
...(Interruptions)... The judicial decision is pending.
...(Interruptions)... Therefore, it should be removed from the record.
...(Interruptions)... I want your ruling on that.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I will have to examine it. I will give a ruling
on it. I will examine it. ...(Interruptions)... Please. Mr. Rajeev
Shukla. ...(Interruptions)...
SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: There is conflict of interest.
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MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: As far as conflict of interest is concerned,
it is for the Members to declare the conflict of interest before making
... ...(Interruptions)...
SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Let him say. ...(Interruptions)... Let him
say. ...(Interruptions)...
:
...()..
: , ...()
: , ..().. I will
have to warn you. I will have to warn you. ...(Interruptions)... Mr.
Katiyar, please dont show this. ...()..
...().. I have not called you. I have not called you.
...(Interruptions)...
: ...()..
...().. ?
...().. : ,
...().. ,
...().. ...()..
: ? ..()..
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: ,
..()...: ..()..
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: He had asked for a point of order.
...(Interruptions)...
:
...()..
: ..()..
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please. Mr. Narayanasamy, I have seen
the Rule. It is regarding ... ...(Interruptions)... Please. Please.
Please. ...(Interruptions)... ...()..
Please. ...(Interruptions)... Mr. Narayanasamy, please sit down.
...(Interruptions)... Please sit down. Please sit down. Mr.
Narayanasamy, under Rule 238, you have said that there is conflict of
interest. It is for the Member to declare his conflict of interest before
making any statement in the House, and if a Member fails to declare a
conflict of interest ... ...(Interruptions)... You have brought it to the
notice. ...(Interruptions)...
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SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, I made two points. Another point is,
judicial decision is pending. ...(Interruptions)... That is also there.
...(Interruptions)...
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You raised it after ...
....(Interruptions)... You raised it ... ...(Interruptions)...
SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: No; no; judicial decision is also pending.
...(Interruptions)...
THE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (SHRI ARUN JAITLEY): Sir,
the hon. Minister who has moved this Bill is raising these objections.
What is, in nutshell, his objection? His objection is that outside this
House, Mr. Ram Jethmalani is crusading against corruption,
petitioning against corruption. ...(Interruptions)... Therefore, in this
House, he must not speak against corruption. ...(Interruptions)...
, conflict of interest
,
...(Interruptions)... Does it behove the Minister who is incharge of the CBI to raise an objection like this that you are crusading
against corruption outside, so dont raise the issue of corruption
inside? ...(Interruptions)...
(Followed by 4q/SKC)
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