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Retrograde Planets

Sunday, 17 July 2011 - Kannan, Sreenadh OG, Prafulla Gang, Robert Coch, Sunil Nair

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[Participants: Kannan, Sreenadh OG, Prafulla Gang, Robert Coch, Sunil Nair]

Kannan:

I would like to know something about Retrograde Planets and their effects in one's life. Today, I

have seen a chart in which 3 planets are retrograde. Is there anything special in this. What they

signify. Particularly what is the result when Lagna Lord itself is retrograde. I have heard some

theories like Retrograde planets in exaltation acts like debilitated and vise versa. Is there some

thing more than this. Kindly give your views.

Sreenadh:

Generally retrograde is considered as good. It is said in Phaladeepika that the planet in retrograde

will give the result of exaltation. But there is a cute thing to note. As per texts like Saravali-

· The planet in retrograde will give beneficial results all on a sudden ONLY IF it is a beneficial

planet.

· If the planet is a malefic, the person will suffer for long, and will have to undertake hard effort

even for small benefits and the results would be usually delayed. But of course at the end of

Dasa they will materialize.

So in short, benefics in retrograde is good, and malefics in retrograde is bad.

Thinking astronomically retrograde is just our assumption and it never happens. i.e the planet is

always in direct motion but -

· for outer planets since the angle covered by earth (compared to that planet) is more and we

will feel that the planet is in retrograde.

· For inner planets when the planet orbits sun (since the earth's orbit is bigger than their orbit)

we will have the feeling that they are in retrograde.

[Me not being a proper scholar, the above words may fail to reflect the actual meaning. A pictorial

description is better to understand the same]

In the ancient texts apart from occasional reference we don't find many slokas that are attributed to

the discussion of retrograde motion. They some how seems to be satisfied with the general

statement, retrograde is good for good planets and bad for bad. Slokas that describe the retrograde

results of individual planets are neither available nor the earlier scholars seems to attribute too

much special importance to it.

Retrograde Planets http://www.ancientindianastrology.com/cmsa/index.php?view=article&...

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But still 3 planets in retrograde generally indicate the presence of too much opposing conditions in

the said mans life, which he would have to over come. But the same also indicate that at the end

he will be rewarded with success, even though delayed. Too many planets in retrograde may also

indicate that the man is not dependable (this statement lacks textual support)

[Ediror: Form here on the thread branched into two – one lead by Ramdas Rao ji which discussed the

retrograde planet karma connection; and other lead by Sreenadh which lead to the discussion of two

charts and some random thoughts]

I. Retrograde planets and Past Karma – Possibly an SJC View

[Ediotr: Ramdas Rao is the Jyotish Guru of an internet astrology organization called SJC]

Ramadas Rao:

Also the Vakra Grahas indicate the area of past life Karmas left out and the person tries to wipe

out such debts in this life depending on the lordships and Karakattwas of the houses these planets

belong to.

Acyutananda Das (To Ramdas Rao):

I've also heard this explanation for retrograde planets in western astrology as well. How do we

rationalize it?

Sreenadh (To Ramdas Rao):

Can you provide the authentic quote about the same?

Ramdas Rao:

Regarding this Vakara Grahas, one of my Jyotish Gurus was explaining in the way I wrote and I

found it is working fantastically.Now unfortunately that evolved soul is no more to clarify more

about this theory of past Karmas.

Sunil Nair:

This view of ramadasji ,i read from late sri. santhanams articles and i think it holds true,very

strong desires and unfulfilled areas from past lives that carrry forwarded to this birth. I dont hav

any textual references other than this .

Kannan (To Sreenadh):

Thanks for replying to my query. I am happy that my query initiated a good discussion on the

subject. This type of discussions are very helpful for everyone. I request all learned members to

continue this discussion. I have one request. Please put some light on "Lagna Lord Retrograde",

irrespective of malefic or benefic (Lagna lord is always a benefic, I think).

Manoj Sharma:

Uttar kalamrit written by Kalidasa also shed some light on retrograde planet. it said when the


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planet is retrograde its effect is reverse i.e. good in debliation & bad in uccha. one of my client has

a meena lagna with debliated jupitar in 11th house. he is a spritual head of some sect (sorry i can't

give more detail of his sect) after start of ju md he faced a lots of problems like enemy, loss in

business, court case & so on. i suggest him to wear a yellow saphire & worship of devi

baglamukhi. after that he get some relife. one of my client has 3 retro planets but he is quite rich &

happy (so far).

Acyutananda Das:

If he is a 'spiritual head' of a sect, why is he consulting you? Genuinely spiritual personalities

never consult jyotishis, for they have no need for it, they simply transcend such things.

On Karma Siddhanta

Panditji:

Isn't the entire horoscope a mirror onto unfinished karma? If there was no unfinished karma, the

native would have achieved moksha. Are you suggesting that retro grahas show a very

strong/adridha karma.

Sreenadh:

Yes, I too feel like repeating your question.

1) Looking from Karma sidhanta point of view: we are here in this planet in this condition only

because of "some unfinished krama or desires from past lives". As you rightly suggests (and I

support) "If there was no unfinished karma, the native would have achieved moksha". Thus it

becomes necessary to clarify what kind of Karma such as Dridha-Dridhadridha-Adridha; but I

don't think that would be enough, because the Dridhadi division has nothing to do with such a

thought line. May be Ramdas ji, and Sunil ji can shed more light on the same. [By the way, I

will put my comments on the Mercury MD of the mentioned chart in another mail]

2) There is another real question to be answered - Is Karma sidhanta an orginal component of

astrology? We don't have much reference to Karma sidhanta in astrology texts prior to some

tests like Leghu Jataka that is ascribed to Mihira (but whose authership is not certain). In

Brihat Samhita Mihira wonders; some say that "Time" is the root cause, some say that it is

"Karma"; some "Swabhava (Nature of the item)", some "Prakriti (Nature/Earth and

environment)", some "God" etc. The wonder `Who is right?' or `Which of these is adopted by

(or adobpted for) astrology?' is clearly visible. Normally at the initial stages astrology was

satisfied with the philosophy of "Kala Purusha - Prakriti (Siva-Sakti)" combination itself I

think. The Karma Sidhanta seems to be an extra interpolation into this age- old philosophy of

astrology, possibly after the period of Mihira.

Retrograde Planets and Past Karma

Radmads Rao (To Panditji):

Yes, You are correct.The Vakra Grahas indicate strong left over Karmas from past life which the


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native during his/her death might have thought of.

For example, in my chart, Makara Lagna whose lord Shani is Vakra and is placed in 9th house ie.,

in Kanya Rashi while its lord Budha is in 3rd house in Meena Rashi with Guru and

Surya.Eventhough I am quite qualified person,from last 30 years, I am working in the same

designation.My friends got promotions and are in very good status.But my monetary position is

comparitively better than my friends.Almost most of my earnings are being spent for the family

and other close relatives.See that Shani is also 2nd lord indicating family.Shani is also Karma

Karaka.

Also I have worked on this matter.Just check the longitude of the Vakra Graha and see when it

becomes direct.Now calculate the number of days from the day of birth till the Graha becomes

direct.Now consider one day as one year,so the number of days becomes number of years.For

example in my chart, Vakra Shani becomes direct after 81 days,so there will be some long

awaiting Karma from the previous life till I complete 81 years of age.This means there are some

obstacles in my progress in the life till I complete 81 years of age, if I live up to that age.But I also

found out that after about 25% of this total years,some slight increase in my progress in life as

some of the debts have been repaid.I also observed that after about 50% of the total years ie.,

around 1992, a steep increase in my life's progress in all spheres of the life.

Now suppose if the person dies before the stipulated years shown by Vakra Graha,then again that

Karma will be postponed to the next life.

Ofcourse,I have taken a lot of pain in this work and I found some success in this matter of Vakra

Grahas.I also request other scholars in this list to check the reality in my work and continue their

efforts to get some more deeper connections related to Vakra Grahas.

Acyutananda Das:

Pretty interesting, any other case studies. I think this would make a great research topic.

Ramdas Rao:

Thanks for your encouraging mail.So I request other members in this list to do further research in

this field.If an Astrologer daily does his Ishta Devatha Mantra Japas,naturally he will get some

intuitional powers and he can use such powers to do some research works in such rare

fields.Whatever I have written in my previous mails will not be available in any ancient classics

and it is my deep devotion to Jyotish has prompted me to take this difficult subject for

exploration.Even whatever I did my research is not mine and everything came from my Ishta

Devatha only and I just wrote those research studies in these kind of mails.

Backward Aspect of Retro Plants

Prafulla Gang (To Ramdas Rao):

So if planet is retro - for example venus is retro in someone's chart and it becomes direct at 25th

year of progressed chart. Should we then - consider it direct for the purpose of natal chart analysis.

and if so - should we stop considering its backward aspect (for its retrogression) from 25th year?

Like wise - if a planet has become retrograde (for example guru) in 15th progressed year. So after

15th year, should we consider retro for natal chart purpose and aspects (as backward to 12th

house).


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Ramdas Ro:

Regarding Vakra Shukra what you write will hold good.If Shukra is Vakra during birth time and it

becomes direct after 25 days, that means the debts of past life connected with the lordship and

Karakatta of Shukra will be almost complete and progress in such areas will improve after 25

years of age.Regarding Guru, what you wrote is not correct. Please try to apply these principles

and see the results.

Prafulla Gang:

Many thanks for clarifications.

Quote

Regarding Vakra Shukra what you write will hold good.If Shukra is Vakra during birth

time and it becomes direct after 25 days, that means the debts of past life connected with

the lordship and Karakatta of Shukra will be almost complete and progress in such areas

will improve after 25 years of age.

Unquote

OK. So after 25 years, we need not take backward aspect, while analysing natal chart? OR natal

chart must be analysed with venus (R) - I mean for strength/aspect etc except for karmic debt.

Quote

Regarding Guru, what you wrote is not correct. Please try to apply these principles and see

the results.

Unquote

OK. No - I was enquiring from you. So should I understand that – if guru has become retro in

progression at specific age, then its aspects must still be considered normal one - not the backward

(due to its retrogression in progression). I look forward to apply these in the charts.

Ramdas Rao:

As you wrote after 25 years, Shukra will act like direct ie., the obstructions for the house lordship

and its Karakattwas will get nullified.If Guru is direct in the natal chart, it is direct only and no

changes will be made.

Prafulla Gang:

Many thanks for clarifictions.

Quote

As you wrote after 25 years, Shukra will act like direct ie., the obstructions for the house

lordship and its Karakattwas will get nullified.

Unquote

OK. What about aspects? In natal chart it is retro Shukra. So should we cease to look at its

backward aspect from 25th year?


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Quote

If Guru is direct in the natal chart, it is direct only and no changes will be made.

Unquote

OK. So irrespective of the fact that guru is retrograding at 15th year, should we ignore that fact? if

so - is it not inconsistent approach to retrograde planets? I am sure sages must have reason to deal

with it (like you said), but I am unable to comprehend it as yet.

Neelam Gupta (To Ramdas Rao):

Thanks for giving us a time parameter for studying the retrogrades. A native has Gemini lagna

with 7th and 10lord exalted and retrograde in 2nd house and 8th and ninth lord saturn retrogrades

in 6th house. Jupiter becomes direct after 46 days of birth and saturn after 129 days. Does it mean

that karmic debts regarding Jupiter will be over after 46 years whereas for saturn they might spill

over to next life. The native has a debilitated lagna lord in 10th house with 3rd lord sun. Mars and

moon in 7th house and venus is swagrahi in 12th house. Ra is with saturn in 6th house and ke with

ven in 12th. I would really appreciate if you could throw some light on the affects of these

positions.

Also I seek comments from all other scholars on the combination. The native is highly qualified

professional but is not satisfied with his progress in life. Though he is very well placed. His birth

details are: DOB 3.4.56/TOB 11.30/POB Meerut I will be grateful for all your expert comments.

Ramdas Rao:

In the horoscope you provided,Guru is Vakra in Karka Rashi.Karka Rashi is the Uccha Rashi for

Guru,so as per Uttara Kalamrita,when a planet is in its Uccha Rashi but Vakra it gives the result as

if it is debilitated.As this Guru (V) indicates deep rooted Karmic indication,till the age of 46 years

his family life and profession will not be prospered or in other words, eventhough he works hard

and shows his love and affection towards his wife,and children,he is not getting the same from

them in the way he expects.Also eventhough he is a hard working native,he is not happy in his

work as he is being neglected in his job.So mentally he is not happy.Just look at Patni Karaka

Shukra is with Ketu,the Vairagya Karaka.This is another affliction to his family life.Now from

2002 onwards,there is some relief in his life but there is one more thing is that this Vakra Guru is

with Mandi and this indicates that this gentleman is a rebirth to the same family to perform some

remedies for the Brahman Shaap which his family might have got 2-3 generations before.A

Brahmin boy in the family 2-3 generations before after the performing of Brahmopadesham,died

of unnatural death ( might be drowned into water pond or river ? ) and no Kriya Karmas were

performed at that time.So this gentleman is born again in the same family to perform the Kriya

Karmas for the died person to give Mukti to that soul.Very soon Guru dasa is commencing and he

will be forced to perform this remedy.

Now regarding Shani (V),he is 8th and 9th lord placed in 6th.Here the long standing Karmic

connection is with father which is not completed in this life and will be postponed to the next life

? You can see debilitated Rahu is coming nearer to Shani to swallow him and Shani going away

with fear ( Vakra ).Here Rahu can be considered as some enemies trying to trouble his father and

is trying to escape from trouble but this gentleman could not help him.Even in his career also,there

are some problems from somebody and he has to pass such difficulties. The above interpretation is

of mine and may be different from other scholars.

Neelam Gupta:


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Many thanks for your valuable commentry on the chart. I guess you are right about the karmic

debts. This native is being thrown into situations for visiting places for tarpan. During the last year

only he was made to visit Pushkar and Nasik both. Isn't that quite strange! He was chased by many

pundits at pushkar for pitr pooja, but being a non believer, he never did it. After a few months he

had to go to Nasik and visited Trimbakeshwar, where he did an exclusive Rudrabhishek, but didn't

do pitr pooja. Do you think these visits were indicative of those karmic connections and he lost the

chance to perform the pooja. Is there any other remedy for this problem. What will be his Guru

MD like. Instead of improving, in 2002, he had to wind up a business of 16 years. although the

business was not doing too well, but now its over. His wife is highly educated and into a business

which is running extremely well. He is now involved in the same business. That way this person is

quite well off. As expected Rahu-Mars dasha chhidr is not good and has given him health

problems. Mars as 6L in 7H with marak 2L and aspecing marak 7L Jupiter in 2H is quite

indicative of health problems. Please share your views on results of Jup MD, especially JU-Ju.

Regarding Saturn, he does not get along with his father and there is a clash of idealogies which is

a life-long problem. If you see saturn has given 0 ashtakvarga points in cancer. therefore, last 2

and a half years of saturns stay in cancer were very troublesome for him. It was ashtak shani also

for him. Do you think with shani's transit in Leo things could become better. I shall be grateful if

you please give me some more indepth into these areas. Thank you very much

Ramdas Rao:

The gentleman's Guru dasa will be starting very soon and it should help him.Here the problem is

Guru ( Vakra ) became direct at his 46th year and is ready to give beneficial results after

performing some remedial measures.But now look at Shani,the Karma Karaka.Guru is the giver of

results of one's Karma.So here Shani is Vakra for about 129 years and its half is 64 and half

years.His present age is about 40 % of Vakra Shani's progressed years.So starting from this present

age, there will be slow developments in his life because he has not started to experience the Past

life Karmas and as the age advances towards 60 +,he will listen to the Gurus and will try to

perform the remedies and happiness will slowly start in his life.Without performing the

remedies,he will not improve in his life as his long awaiting past karmas debts are not worn out. I

am still working on this theory.

Neelam Gupta:

Many thanks once again for throwing light on this tricky combination. Will Guru's aspect on the

Vakri Shani give some solace and bring him some peace of mind in Guru's dasha. Shani is also 9th

lord sitting in 6H. He has a good life, children, money, wife, etc. but only his professional life has

not bore fruits if seen independently. Will wife get to play a role in bringing him professional

solace as guru is 7L and 10L. Already since 2004 he is totally involved in the business started by

his wife. The native wants to set up his own successful enterprise as his previous one was not

successful. Do you think he will get an opportunity to start something in Ju-Ju. Should he try or

not try for an independent venture. Also if you could suggest any remedy/remedies to reduce the

effects of previous karmas. Your analysis of situation in relation with past karmas has given a new

perspective to the results of these planets. I shall be grateful if you kindly elaborate further on this.

What is the contribution of debilitated mercury in this combination. Jupiter also aspects the LL

mer in 10H.

Ramdas Rao:

In my 1st mail itself,I provided the remedies he has to perform to nullify some of his past life

Karmas.Anyhow after going through his chart and the informations, you gave,unless the Karma

Karaka Shani (V) has to allow him to do the remedies,he can not do it.Eventhough Guru's


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Vakrattwa has almost nullified,ie., he is ready to give the fruits of the Past Karmas,the gentleman's

Shani is Vakra and atleast 40 % of the total number of years ie., 129 years of Vakra Gati has to

complete.At this junction,he has almost completed 40 % of Vakra Shani's period,now slowly he

has to boost the native to start the remdies.So to get that readiness to perform the remedies, let him

chant the Dwadashakshara Vishnu Mantra : OM NAMO BHAGAVATE VASUDEVAYA daily 108

times morning and evening time.Morning during Sun rise and in the evening during Sun set

time.If he is not able to chant the Mantra in the evening,let him chant the Mantra 2 Malas in the

morning time.Tulasi Mala is best used for this chanting.In addition to this,let him chant/listen to

Shri Vishnu Sahsra Naama Stotra daily.

Now regarding the business matters,let us look at his 7th and 10th lord Guru.7th house is his

Moola Trikona house and 10th house is his Swakshetra and so 7th house becomes more stronger

than 10th house and hence the business connected with his wife will bring him success.Guru's sign

lord is Chandra and is placed in Dhanu Rashi.Budha debilitated is placed in a Kendra from this

Chandra,so his debilitation gets cancelled due to Guru's sign position.You can see a Parivarthana

Yoga between Guru and Chandra.So Guru being 7th lord is more stronger and is placed in

Ashlesha Nakshatra ruled by Budha.Also Budha in Meena Rashi is in Revathi Nakshatra ruled by

Budha.This indicates he will be successful in Guru Dasa in business connected with his wife.

Textual Reference for Aspect in reverse direction

Pa nditji (To Ramdas Rao):

Where is it mentioned that vakri grahas aspect in reverse direction? Is there any support for this?

I have also seen some people take the aspect or retro planets from one house behind. I think it is

just for after the fact justifications. Unfortunately many do not use these parameters consistently.

So they take aspe from one house back when it suits the data, backwards when that suits the data

and regular aspects when that seems to fit the known data. Thats why it is imporatnt to have

"Pramana", a classical reference for such parameters.

Ramdas Rao:

Brihat Nadi Astrology by Shri R.G.Rao mentions about the Vakra Grahas aspect from the previous

house also.

Prafulla Gang:

So when retrograde - planet look at previous sign (12th house) or they look from

previous sign (so guru retrograde in taurus - so from aries - it will aspect 5/7/9)?

Now what happens to guru's aspect from taurus? - should it be considered or not

at all. If to be considered ..then will guru influence 8 signs?

Ramdas Rao:

Yes, 8 signs and you apply and see how it works.

Prafulla Gang:


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Many thanks for the clarification.

Siam Pacific (Kumar):

Well I dont know the which text but my guru used to tell me vakra planets are like you are

walking forward but you are glancing behind thus the the drishti will be in reverse order 5/7/9.

Prafulla Gang:

Many thanks for your note. This backward aspect from its place itself, or from its 12th sign?

Siam Pacific (Kumar):

The aspect is taken from the bhava itself ,as their is no retro motion ,you are walking ahead with

your glance behind you.

Prafulla Gang:

Many thanks for your clarifications.

Sunil Nair:

I was waiting for more educated and experienced souls to answer . Your arguement partly coreect

for those who mix sistems , yes generaly most schools in vedic astolology dont take a planets rear

aspect ,because it is vakri,including kerlala paramparas .

But those who use progression and naadi s i find it using regularly .Regrding progression i dont

know much .But naadis i find sri K N Rao says its is used in brigu naadi methods --consistently

but he has not shared all the secrets and i also find south naadis generaly keep this view .Not as

aspect they also presume planet in 12th and its aspects,if its vakri.

Regrding textual referenc e i dont know .What i use is my gurupadesa and anubhava.i find its

working ,but we shud not mix one sistem with another.

Progression technics --some one else will discuss and if some one can initiate its good .

Dopplar Effect and other things

Krishnamurthy Seetarama (To Ramdas Rao):

This is interesting. It is for the first time that I am hearing someone confidently talk about the

aspects of retrograde planets being different. I will pay attention to what you have said and check

it out.

As a student of Science, I can understand that there will be definitive difference in electromagnetic

force frequency experienced at a point caused by a planet relative in motion from the point of

measurement. This effect is called "Doppler Effect" in Physics. To understand what is Doppler

Effect, one could look at the following web site:

http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Cyberia/Bima/doppler.html

It is clear that there will be difference in the influence of a planet in direct motion as against a

planet which is moving away relative to earth. But, the question is how to map "Doppler Effect" of


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retrograde planets in Astrology.

What you have suggest could be the answer. More research needs to be done in this area to

understand the effect systematically.

Panditji:

Retro planets are not moving away from earth. They infact are closest to earth when they get

retrograde, and the retro speed is fastest when closest to earth. Also Guru affects 8 houses as

backward and forward aspects are same houses.

If we take aspect from a house behind and take backward aspect as well as forward, then it may

affect as many as 10 houses. Do people who propose this take backward as well as forward

aspetcs as well as aspect from one house behind? This will make retro planets affecting entire

zodiac in a chart. I don't think we are capturing what is really said in classics.

Krishnamurthy Seetharama:

We are talking about relative motion here. I was talking about the relative motion of the planets

causing Doppler Effect on earth. Hence, it is clear that the retro planets behave differently.

With regard to how this alters the way we look at retro planets in Astrology, I still don't have a

definite view. I am still exploring.

Ramdas Rao (To Panditji):

I request you one thing.Please check your chart if you have Vakra planet and try to apply this

principle.No ancient classics gave a complete interpretation of Vakra Grahas.Just look at when a

Graha becomes Vakra, you can see there are many unforeseen events happening in this

world.Ofcourse,this comes under Mundane Astrology and experts in these areas can explain about

those events.This means when a planet becomes Vakra,there will be a lot of Mundane events in

this universe,so will it not affect a human being may be good or bad ??

The boasting and biography of Ramdas Rao

Ramdas Rao (To Krishnamurthy Seetharama):

Thanks for your encouraging mail.I am also a science student who completed my B.Sc.in Physics

and Chemistry in 1971.But from my young age I was thinking why I am born in this world and

what is my job here etc.etc.During my job in 1973, I met a person who was good in Palmistry and

he told me so many secrets of my life after looking at my palms.Then I got interest in Palmistry

and bought a lot of Palmistry books and learnt a lot from those books.Even then I was not

satisfied.Then my Guru at that time told me that if I learn Jyotish, I can explore many things of

our life and he said my chart is good to beome a good Astrologer.So in 1984, I started learning

Jyotish in Kuwait where I am working now with the help of my Guru Mantralaya Shri

Raghavendra Swami Ji.I brought the books of Dr.B.V.Raman and started learning Jyotish and

within a year one of my colleage asked a emergency reading and eventhough I am new to this

field,he forced me to tell something.I gave a reading which became 100 % correct and turned his

life completely.Then I took further interest and studied many classics like Brihat Jataka, BPHS

,Prashna Margam etc.Then I was facinated by Shri R.G.Rao's Nadi books and so I went to him and

accepted him as my Nadi Guru.So in that bok, he explained about the Vakra planets have to be


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considered from its previous house also.When I applied, it started giving accurate results.Then I

started a comphrehensive study of Varka Grahas and I thought there must be a deep connection

with these Vakra Grahas and our long awaiting past life Karmas.I made a deep study on these

Grahas and the result I gave to all of you in these mails.I have explained this in SJC's VA list some

years before and everybody got interested at that time but after some no further studies in this line.

II. Reto planets – the Classical view

Panditji (To Sreenadh):

Retrogression is part of chesta bala (One component of shadbala). Planets get retrograde when

they are closest to earth. Outer planets that means away from the sun, so they are bright. So it

makes astronomical sense as well. I have not seen any meaningful discussion on effects of them in

a chart.

When you say good planets, you mean naturally benefic (guru, shukra) and bad planets meaning

naturally malefic ( shani, mangal) ? Also what about theories floating around of exalted retro is

like dbilited and debilited retro is like exalted? Any textual support of this ? Personally it makes

not much sense.

Sreenadh:

Quote

Retrogression is part of chesta bala (One component of shadbala). Planets get retrograde

when they are closest to earth. Outer planets that means away from the sun, so they are

bright. So it makes astronomical sense as well.

Unquote

Thanks for a good point.

When i said good planets I was just referring to the natural benefics that is - Jupiter, Venus and

Non combusted Mercury. When I said bad planets I was just referring to the natural malifics

Saturn, Mars and combusted Mercury.

Of couse Sun, Moon, and Lagna can never be in retrograde. Rahu and Ketu are always retrograde

and any discussion on retrograde does not include them.

Quote

What about theories floating around of exalted retro is like dbilited and debilited retro is

like exalted? Any textual support of this ?

Unquote

I am yet to see any such textual reference. The usual method (As I have seen followed by elder,

traditional and well read astrologers especially of Kerala) is to consider them separately -

· Apply the general retro grade result predicted by text to the planet if it is in retrograde.


Стр. 11 из 28 05.02.2013 10:56

· If the planet is in debilitation or exaltation tell the result specific to that.

Mixing and matching of both is not usually appreciated (just based on the statement - retrograde

plant gives results 'similar' to exaltation). Retrograde is retrograde and exaltation is exaltation.

Even though they might be 'similar' in some respects they shouldn't be considered as

interchangeable.

Yes, personally I too feel that considering "debilitated retrograde as exalted" etc does not makes

sense.

Example Chart -1

Robert Koch (To Sreenadh):

You wrote:

Quote

Mixing and matching of both is not usually appreciated (just based on the statement -

retrograde plant gives results 'similar' to exaltation). Retrograde is retrograde and

exaltation is exaltation.

Even though they might be 'similar' in some respects they shouldn't be considered as

interchangeable. Yes, personally I too feel that considering "debilitated retrograde as

exalted" etc does not makes sense.

Unquote

Although these statements garner good logic, experience bears out the opposite to what you've

written. Take, for instance, the case of the great Basketball super-star Michael Jordan, who is

unequivocally the greatest player in that sport to ever have lived. Note the data for the horoscope

for Michael Jordan as follows:

Michael Jordan

Date: February 17, 1963

Time: 10:20:00

Time Zone: 5:00:00 (West of GMT)

Place: 77 W 56' 42", 34 N 13' 32"

Wilmington, North Carolina, USA

Lagna = 18 Aries 55

Aries rises in this chart, with lagna lord Mars debilitated, retrograde, and also afflicted by Rahu.

How could a great sports hero have debilitated and retrograde Mars, if what you've written above

is correct? In fact, not only is Mars acting as if exalted in this horoscope, but also confers the full

effects of Raja-yoga. I will find other examples to reinforce this point as well.

Ram Jaswal:


Стр. 12 из 28 05.02.2013 10:56

Regarding Michael Jordan’s chart may I suggest Mars debilitation being cancelled is perhaps more

due to its position in Navamsha? Being in 3rd and Own House (Scorpio) if Birth time is as given.

Regarding Birth time – do you know how accurate it is? Please share other Charts – I am

intrigued?

Hasmukhraj Mehta:

The Moon, the dispositor of Mars is also debilitated; but both the planets gain great strength

because they exchange houses (parivartana yoga).

Robert Koch:

Yes, you are right, but the over-arching point that I was making was: (1) retrograde, deblitated

malefics gain strength, something similar to Vipareet yoga. If they are in angles, then so much

more so and they act as if exalted; and if they have sambandha with lords of angles and trines,

then they confer Neechabhanga Raja-yoga. This was clearly the case with Michael Jordan, a

classic example of these principles.

Conversely it is also found that retrograde benefics when exalted give very disappointing results.

If they are in kendras, their effects will be neutral. But if in other houses, especially Apoklimas,

their results will be as if they were debilitated.

Prafulla Gang:

Many sports star have debilitated mars (not necessarily retro) -

Saurav Ganguly (karka lagna - mars deb in lagna)

Mohd Azharudin (kanya lagna - deb mars in 11th)

Well - I do not have chart data - so other mamebers may share.

Sreenadh:

I don't think that Mars is the planet alone that makes a sportman; I don't remember reading

anywhere the same.

Of course Mars is karaka for Wrestling or palm-wrestling, especially when combined with Me or

Ve. It is said that Su-Ve combination can give positive results as far as sward fighting is

concerned. For batsman I think the strength of 3rd and 11th house (arms) are important. I think the

significator planets and houses varies for various sport items. Looking for references to all such

possible combinations (for perticular sports) and making an elaborate list could be a big task.

Depending totally on Mars for the same would be taking wrong path, not advised by the saints.

Prafulla Gang:

No - I did not mean to say that mars is karaka or had major role for their success. I just provided

two natives, who have debilitated mars and they have excelled in sports. Of course - there must be

many more areas of chart to be looked into.

If members have the chart data of Ganguly and Azharuddin, then we may look at other

contributing factors as well.

[Editor: Here the thread branched into two. One continuing the discussion of the sample chart and the


Стр. 13 из 28 05.02.2013 10:56

other discussing the connection between astrology and Karma siddhanta.. To read astrology

karmasiddhanta discussion jump to the sub heading “Astrology and Karma siddhanta”]

Exanple chart-2

Krishnamurthy Seetharama (To Sreenadh):

You said:

"Too many planets in retrograde may also indicate that the man is not dependable (this statement

lacks textual support)"

Well, my daughter has three planets retrograde. She is about 17 years now. And, I don't see any

problems with dependability so far. I am just giving you a data point.

In any case, as three planets are retrograde in her chart, I always see it as a roadblock to analyse

her chart myself as I don't understand the correct effect of a planet being retrograde. Dr. Charak, in

his book, says that retrograde planets cause health problems.

Here are the birth details:

DOB: 11-Jan-1990

TOB: 20:35

POB: Bangalore

I would be interested to know how would be her Mercury MD, Mercury being one of the

retrograde planets.

I look forward to your comments, hoping that you won't consider my request as a chart reading

request.

Sunil Nair:

As far as retro planets are concerned i also support the view of sri ramadasji ,some unfinished

krama or desires from past lives ,depending on karakatwas and placements and lordships.Along

with other textual references mercury in her case is in exchange with jupiter and it becomes an

exchange of 5th and 11th lords,so i dont think bad for her .

Rest u know as a scholar urself .This exchange other wise might giv her good oral skills and may

be quest for knowledge and may be various educational pursuits. . Pls clarify, also i invite

scholarly comments from sri .sreenath and others.


Thanks for your kind note. I agree with your observations on my daughter's chart.

All three benefic planets are retrograde. Based on what Sreendh quoted, I assume it is beneficial to

the native. They becore direct as follows:

Mercury - after 9 days


Стр. 14 из 28 05.02.2013 10:56

Venus - After 28 days

Jupiter - After 45 days

Based on Ramadas Rao ji's calculation:

I guess as she is more than 9 years old now, Mercury's retrogression is not an issue and I can

assess her Mercury MD considering Mercury as direct. And as Venus becomes direct after 28

days, her delays related to mariage (note 7th lord Sani is combust) would be resolved after 28

years.

Please comment.

Sunil Nair:

According to some naadis venus controlles only quality of married life and mars is real mangal

kartha and the bringer of males in a female life ,in her chart it is strongly placed.Also venus vakri

showing ,the venus is trying to escape such situation and jupiter being vakri aspecting this

combination of venus and also mars.So it shows also devine grace and any remedies in that

direction will work .

As per vedic astrology 7th lord in 5th may show a choice marriage ,but care shud be taken while

selecting.But the 4th lord of family happiness well palced and giving a mahapurusha yoga and in

navamsa also as lord is well placed in 11th house and giving its amsa to 7th house in rasi ,so in the

long run it will be beneficial --yes may be after natural year of maturity ,if some problems exists

will be solved .also venus is 10th lord of profession in her chart.

I think 25 to 28 is period of marriage as dasa and various marriage points r triggerred that time in

transit also .

By the time the great mischief and schemer rahu also will pass transit over her mars ,a special

combo applicable to her chart.(during this time care shud be taken while fixing marriage).it will be

over may be within 5 to 6 years.

All figures i take roughly only ,just to get a rough idea ,

Krishnamurthy Seerharama:

Thanks for your analysis. I really appreciate your inputs.

Sreenadh:

Your Daughter's chart: 11-Jan-1990; 20:35; Banglore.

Query: How the Mercury MD would be? (considering Me is retrograde)

1) Leo : Asc; Navamsa: Ra

2) Virgo : -----

3) Libra : Gk; Navamsa: (Me), Sa

4) Scorpio : Ma; Navamsa: Su

5) Sagattarious: Sa, (Me), Sa ; Navamsa: (Ju)


Стр. 15 из 28 05.02.2013 10:56

6) Capricon : Ra, (Ve); Navamsa: Ma

7) Aquaris : --- ; Navamsa: Ke

8) Picses : --- ; Navamsa: (Ve)

9) Aries : --- ; Navamsa: (Asc), (Gk)

10) Tarus : -----

11) Gemini : (Ju); Navamsa:---

12) Cancer : Mo, Ke; Navamsa:Mo

Ayanamsa: True Ayanamsa (Chandra Hari)

[Asc is Leo and retrograde Me is in the 5th house with Saturn and Sun. (Me)-Su-Sa is aspected by

Ju from Gemini. The 5th house is conjunct between two malefics Ma in Scorpio and Ra in

Capricorn. In navamsa even though the 5th house is saved by Ju navamsa, it is hemmed between

Su in Scorpio and Ma in Capricorn. Three malefics in 5th house (including Me) but the good point

is that the 5th lord aspects the 5th house and the navamsa of the 5th lord Ju falls in 5th house

itself. What is the use for the querent with all these? The question is what are the results?]

“Your daughter will have good education, intelligence, good memory, good nature, belief in god,

belief in astrology, and an inquisitive mind. No problem in studies but difficulty in getting a

proper job.

There would be delay in marriage. At the age of 26-27 she will have an affair, and the same could

result in a love marriage, possibly against the will of the parents. Marriage will happen at the age

of 26-27 and she will have a good house and settled life by 27-28.

There would be problems in having children and possibly one or two abortions. Much money

would be spend on treatments, and worships for the sake of getting a child. The first child could be

a girl. For sure she will have two children, possibly at the age of 32-34.

The life is good and every sought after results gained but notice that Me gave those results only

after giving all kinds of initial troubles.”

Astrologer's point of view: Why these predictions?

The 5th is the house of a benefic Ju and the house itself is aspected by Ju, and the navamsa of Ju

falls in 5th from natal lagna, in its own house Sagittarius. Su-Me forms the Nipuna Yoga in 5th

house. These combinations indicate that the native would be intelligent, having good memory,

good education (4th lord in 4th; 9th lord in Ma in swakshetra), inquisitiveness, belief in astrology,

belief in god.

10th house from Lagna, Moon and Sun are vacant - indicating that the native will not have a

proper job. But of course she may have small jobs for short periods.

7th is the house of Saturn; the Dasa lord Me is with Saturn; 7th house is aspected by 7th lord

Saturn (Delay in marriage but the marriage will happen); Age difference with the husband (Sa

being 7th lord); 7th aspected by Ma; Aspect of Ma-Sa aspect combination in 7th; Ke Navamsa in


Стр. 16 из 28 05.02.2013 10:56

7th; In short all indicating delay in marriage.

The 7th lord in 5th; the 5th house aspected by 5th lord; the Lagna lord placed along with Sa (7th

lord) and aspected Ju (5th lord). The native will have a love marriage. Possibly at Me-Su period,

i.e. around 2016-17, at the age of 26-27.

Mo in own house; Mo Navamsa in Vargottama; 4th lord Ma in own house; All indicating good

house by 2017-2019, at the age of 27-29. Good life and wealth.

Sa in 5th; Me in 5th; All indicating delay in having children.

Me in 5th; 2 Malefics in 5th; Gk in 5th from Ju; Su navamsa in 5th from Mo; All indicating loss of

children (Abortion).

Ju in 12th; 5th lord in 12th; 12th lord in 5th; All indicating expenses in worship, temples, rituals

for having children. Thus a good amount of care, effort and expense for having children.

Ju the 5th lord aspects 5th (2 children); Ju Navamsa in swakshetra in 5th (2 children); Ju has

covered more than 2 Navama (From Libra to Sagittarius: Indicating 2 children); All the above

combinations indicate that the native will have 2 children for sure. Since Ju being the child giving

planet here, the native will have 2 children by 2022-2024, at the age of 32-34.

Classic quotes

Brigu sutra states (If Me is in 5th house)-

MatulaGandaH MatradiSoukhyam

PutraVikhnam Medhavi Madhurabhashi

Budhiman Bavadipe Balayute.

Balaheene PutranasaH Aputra

DattuputraPraptiH Papakarmi MantravadiH

[If Me is in 5th health problems to Maternal uncle in Me Dasa should be told. The native would be

intelligent, speaking good words, will have a sweet sound, and good memory. There would be

trouble in having children. If the 5th lord is weak abortions could happen or the native wont have

children. She will adopt children. He will do bad deeds, and will believe in Mantravada, and will

know secret hymns]

Chamalkara Chintramani states (If Me is in 5th house)-

Vayasyadime Putragarbho na tishtad

Bhavettasya medhartha sampadayitri

Budhairbhanyate panchame rouhineya

Kiyadvidyate Kaitavasyabhicharam

[In the early years she won't have children. She will have good intelligence and wealth. .... ]

BPHS states (If the 2nd lord is in 5th)-


Стр. 17 из 28 05.02.2013 10:56

Dhanadipe tu Soonusthe sadartha jana tatparaiH

Soonubhi swairyuto jato jayate dhanavanapi

[Refer BPHS for meaning]

BPHS states (If the 12th lord is in 5th)-

Vyayese Putrage Jato putrahetor bhoori vyayee naraH

Vidya putra viheenascha sada teerthadane rataH

[Refer BPHS for meaning]

Garga Hora states (If Me is in 5th) -

Panchamaste chandraputraH santanam Prakarotihi

AstamgataH satrudrishtaschotpannasya vinasadaH

[If Me is in 5th, for sure the native will have children. But if debilitated or aspected by malefics

then loss of children will happen]

The above slokas clarifies that the native will be intelligent, will have a good life, will have delay

in marriage, will have delay in having children, spend a lot for the same, but for sure will have

children, and will have a good life.

What is the role of retrograde planet in all these?! If not these initial delays and beneficiary results

at the end, what else the retrograde planets indicate!!

As per Saravali-

Vakropagasya hi dasa bhramayati kulala chakraval purusham

Vyasanani ripu virodham karoti papasya na subhasya

[The retrograde planet will trouble the native as if in a wheel. It will give sadness and enmity. But

this kind of effect should be predicted only for malefics and not for benefics]

Dasdhayi clarifies-

Vakrinastu Mahaveerya Subha Bhagyaprada nrinam

Papa vyesanada pumsam kurvanti cha vridhadanam

[The retrograde planets are very strong, and give all kinds of good luck. But the malefics if

retrograde, gives sadness, efforts without result, and travel (But at the end they too will give the

sought for beneficial results)]

I hope this long discussion clarifies the results that should be attributed to Retrograde Mercury

present in your daughter's horoscope.



Стр. 18 из 28 05.02.2013 10:56

At the outset, I thank you very much for spending time to look into my daughter's chart and for

giving your valuable analysis. I have some questions/comments on what you have said:

Quote

The 5th is the house of a benefic Ju and the house itself is aspected by Ju, and the navamsa

of Ju falls in 5th from natal lagna, in its own house Sagittarius. Su-Me forms the Nipuna

Yoga in 5th house. These combinations indicate that the native would be intelligent,

having good memory, good education (4th lord in 4th; 9th lord in Ma in swakshetra),

inquisitiveness, belief in astrology, belief in god.

Unquote

Though there is Nipuna Yoga, note that Mercury is combust. Agree on the rest.

Quote

7th is the house of Saturn; the Dasa lord Me is with Saturn; 7th house is aspected by 7th

lord Saturn (Delay in marriage but the marriage will happen); Age difference with the

husband (Sa being 7th lord); 7th aspected by Ma; Aspect of Ma-Sa aspect combination in

7th; Ke Navamsa in 7th; In short all indicating delay in marriage. The 7th lord in 5th; the

5th house aspected by 5th lord; the Lagna lord placed along with Sa (7th lord) and

aspected Ju (5th lord). The native will have a love marriage. Possibly at Me-Su period, i.e.

around 2016-17, at the age of 26-27.

Unquote

There are two points to be noted here. 7th lord Saturn is combust and Venus occupies 12th from

Navamsha lagna. In addition, Venus is retrograde. I guess these will pose additional challenges to

the timing of the marriage. Exaltation of Venus in Navamsha provides some respite.

Quote

Ju in 12th; 5th lord in 12th; 12th lord in 5th; All indicating expenses in worship, temples,

rituals for having children. Thus a good amount of care, effort and expense for having

children.

Unquote

Ju is in the 11th and not in the 12th.

Quote

Ju the 5th lord aspects 5th (2 children); Ju Navamsa in swakshetra in 5th (2 children); Ju

has covered more than 2 Navama (From Libra to Sagittarius: Indicating 2 children); All

the above combinations indicate that the native will have 2 children for sure. Since Ju

being the child giving planet here, the native will have 2 children by 2022-2024, at the

age of 32-34.

Unquote

All this is fine. But, Ju is in Sandhi in Navamsha, very sensitive to ayanamsa. I get Ju in

debilitated sign (in Navamsha) using Lahiri. Again Ju is retrograde. Doesn't look good. Isn't it?


Стр. 19 из 28 05.02.2013 10:56

Sreenadh:

Please look at the chart using True Ayanamsa of Chandrahari.(46 min more than Lahari). If you

are using JHora you can do it easily by setting the Ayanamsa value to be '46 min more than

Lahari'.

Quote

Ju is in the 11th and not in the 12th.

Unquote

Yes, I made a mistke in in looking at the position of Ju. sorry. But still Ju is in 12th from Moon;

6th lord in 5th; Me in 5th; all indicate the same result - and thus that derivation holds. Reagarding

other comments –

Quote

* Even if Mercury is combest Nipuna Yoga holds.

* Marriage is timed to happen in Me=>Su. (as per True Ayanamsa)

7th lord Saturn is combust and Venus occupies 12th from Navamsha lagna.

Unquote

* Yes, of course 7th lord Sa is combust. But Sa aspects 7th and 7th is aspected by Ju and Ma (9th

lord) as well. "Yapya bhavanti subhekshita" [Even the bad results become hidden and good when

benifics aspect the sign]. Further Ve is in 7th from Moon sign, and is exalted in Navamsa.

* Considering 12th from Navamsa Legna is not supported by classics. All the aspects and houses

should be read from the natal chart itself.

Quote

All this is fine. But, Ju is in Sandhi in Navamsha, very sensitive to ayanamsa. I get Ju in

debilitated sign (in Navamsha) using Lahiri. Again Ju is retrograde. Doesn't look good.

Isn't it?

Unquote

Ju navamsa is in Swamsa (in Sagittarius). Otherwise with 3 Malefics in 5th and with a Ju

debilitated in Navama your daughter would not had such good intelligence and interest in

education. Further Me aspecting 11th its own house, and Ju significator of elders in 11th, Ju in

swamsa: Indicates that she has an elder brother/sister; possibly brother itself. If this is confirmed

you can be sure that Ju is in Sagittarius navamsa itself; if not Ju could be treated as having

Capricorn Navamsa.


Thanks once again for your clarifications. This is my second daughter. She has an elder sister. So,

Ju in Sg is the correct position in Navamsha?

Sreenadh:


Стр. 20 из 28 05.02.2013 10:56

Yes, it is.

Panditji:

Two questions.

What would the ayanamsha be if we take topocentric position of the moon ? Would the moon

parallax bring Lahiri in line with Chandra Hari ? Secondly with this chart, why guru has to be in

swamsha to give older sister. Guru in 11 th can give older sibling and guru debilited may give

sister than brother.

Sreenadh:

Quote

What would the ayanamsha be if we take topocentric position of the moon? Would the

moon parallax bring Lahiri in line with Chandra Hari ?

Unquote

I don't have the knowledge to answer both these questions. I value the Ayanamsa provided by

Chandra Hari only because it is not his own, but the Ayanamsa reflected Ancient Sury Sidhanta.

Actually it the Ancient Surya Sidhanta Ayanamsa, based on which the whole 108 Navamsa

divisions, signs and stellar divisions as divisions of ecliptic systematically theorized to perfection.

Actually I am favor of geocentric than topocentric view (both relative to earth), but my knowledge

in such matters is so feeble that I can not comment much on the same. In such situation how can I

even understand the question "What would the Ayanamsa be if we take topocentric position of the

moon?". May be chandrahari would be able to answer that question -or may be not. I don't know.

Quote

Secondly with this chart, why guru has to be in swamsha to give older sister.

Unqute

I think your indication is in the direction that - Capricorn being an even (Yugma) sign should give

sister, and Sagittarius being odd (Oja) should give brother. But you should not that my prediction

itself was based on a doubt in my own mind, which become clarified with that prediction itself. I

will clarify.

In the said chart -

1) The 11th house is owned by Me; A Sthri Napumsaka planet. [female]

2) Me aspects the 11th house as well; [female]

3) From Moon 11th house is owned by Ve; A female planet; [female]

4) Ve is placed in an even sign; [female]

5) 11th lord from Moon, Ve is exalted in Navamsa in an even sign[female]

6) The 11th lord from Lagna (Me) is placed in an odd sign [male]

7) Ju is only the significator of elder, and not the planet showing the sex of the elder itself.


Стр. 21 из 28 05.02.2013 10:56

As you could see clearly "female" gets majority here - as per "dwi tri samvada bhaval". After

seeing all these indications I should have told that she will have an elder sister. But I have

committed the usual mistake! i.e. Taking the significator to indicate the sex of the elder sister

itself! Because-

1) Ju is placed in 11th from Lagna. [male]

2) Ju Navamsa falling in odd sign [male]

This is a mistake I should have avoided. The doubt was there in my mind, (brother/sister) because

I new that I am considering the significator as the person itself, but then with the doubt itself

thought put forward the idea (possibly elder brother itself), so that It would get clarified and my

doubt would be cleared. And the actual result, as you know, "elder sister".

That is why my statement- " my prediction itself was based on a doubt in my own mind, which

become clarified with that prediction itself".

I hope the point is clear. Ju is in Sagittarius navamsa, just emphasizing the presence of an elder

one; and the elder is a female as indicated by Me and Ve.

If Ju was in Cp navamsa it should have indicated the absence or loss of an elder one with the

navamsa falling in 8th house from the house from Gemini (the house in which Ju is posited). This

would have been emphasized by the presence of Ma (6th lord from Gemini) there in Navamsa, and

the presence of Ra (incomplete) in Capricorn.

Gopu (To Sreenadh):

Yourr analysis of the chart is very good with ref from slokas. But the discussion on retrograde

planets ur concluding that benefics will not harm. suppose the theory of number of days it was

retrograde is applied, in this chart on Jan 20th mercury's retrogression goes of and from 11th it is

10days or 10years of retrogression and the first 10years of Mercury maha dasa may not give the

desired results. can we apply this interpretation for retrogrades irrespective of whether it is benefic

or malefic? Kindly clarify.

Sreenadh:

Quote

suppose the theory of number of days it was retrograde is applied, in this chart on Jan 20th

mercury's retrogression goes of and from 11th it is 10days or 10years of retrogression and

the first 10years of Mercury maha dasa may not give the desired results. can we apply this

interpretation for retrogrades irrespective of whether it is benefic or malefic?

Unquote

There is no authentic support from classics for such new born theories. It is better for us keep

quite and not to compete with the sages in such matters. I always, as far as possible, go by the

reference, and when they are missing - who am I to mislead others? I am a feeble brain, and even

after having enough references I may commit mistakes. In this situation how can I state things

with out even a proper reference?

Sorry I don't know, and i repeat, it is better to keep quite in such matters. If you have some theory

or belief regarding the same use it yourself, and if some one else have some let them use it. Who

are we to conclude? They might be right, or may be wrong. Where the sages kept the calm, some


Стр. 22 из 28 05.02.2013 10:56

may speak a lot, some one may listen, some one may not - who is right and wrong(!) who knows!

But sorry, it is not my domain - because I don't know. I will try to study more about retrograde

planets, but you see, I don't even know much about planets itself, least to say about signs and

house, and the results of their placement in them. I don't know much even about direct planets,

least to say about the amsas they have. What I am trying to do is to be sincere and collect, present,

and study what ever I can with my weak brain, which too may go right or wrong. I am not a sage

and I don't think I can be. So please don't expect answers from me for every one of your doubts -

because I don't have answers to many of them. Let us search and seek, and share a pearl when we

find one, and let not mistake something else for a pearl. But you see we are all feeble brains - and

the mistakes may happen at any time.

K.Gopu:

I fully concur with ur replies, I raised this query because this was the subject which was discussed

in this forum for the last few days. all of us are still in the learning and sharing process. Ur reply

reflects ur modesty but for people like me ur knowledge is in depth and looks like acquistion of

the same is consistent.

Ramdas Rao (To Gopu):

If Budha is Vakra and is malefic for the chart,such Budha Dasa till that period will be of evil but

after that he may give reverse results and suppose if such Budha Vakra is benefic in nature,the

results of such benefic Budha will be very slow and after that period,its benefic results will

suddenly doubled.

K. Gopu:

Thanks for the clarification.

Prafulla Gang (To Ramdas Rao)

Another confusion. Should not we take natural benefic / malefic to consider vakri planet's result

(as most bhrigu nadi sutra does not talk of ascendant driven functional role) for past life karmic

debts etc?

Ramdas Rao:

Now for example,for Karka Lagna, Budha becomes 3rd and 12th lord and hence he becomes a

malefic for Karka Lagna.In such case, if Budha is Vakra and as we know Vakra means some kind

of obstruction,we have to see in which area Budha is giving obstruction.Here, Budha is the lord of

3rd house indicating communication will be affected till he becomes direct after a certain period of

time and also the native may have some health problems connected to central nervous

system,ear/nose/throat etc.Also 3rd house indicates younger co-born.So in such cases,either there

may be no younger co-born or if born will have some birth defects.These observations can be

checked personally.Ofcourse all these informations are my research based,so I request to check the

reality of this fact and can improve this theory.I also agree that our Maharshis have not given any

such informations in any of the classics and as it is very secret to know about these things and was

hidden.So it is our duty to give attention to such hidden matters and study them and try to do some

research on such matters.

But some Scholars are against me as the Aham is not allowing them to try to check such kind of

theories.You see, till now I dont have any website of my own and I thought I can use the


Стр. 23 из 28 05.02.2013 10:56

Astrology groups like the present one which is meant to disperse our age old Divine science of

Jyotish.But they are not interested to listen to me and in such case,I feel that I dont have to

continue in this list.So I will not be available to this list. I wish everybody best of luck with happy

learning of Jyotish.

Prafulla Gang:

Quote

Now for example,for Karka Lagna, Budha becomes 3rd and 12th lord and hence he

becomes a malefic for Karka Lagna.In such case, if Budha is Vakra and as we know Vakra

means some kind of obstruction,we have to see in which area Budha is giving

obstruction.Here, Budha is the lord of 3rd house indicating communication will be affected

till he becomes direct after a certain period of time and also the native may have some

health problems connected to central nervous system,ear/nose/throat etc.Also 3rd house

indicates younger co-born.So in such cases,either there may be no younger co-born or if

born will have some birth defects.These observations can be checked personally.Ofcourse

all these informations are my research based,so I request to check the reality of this fact

and can improve this theory.

Unquote

Yes - I do understand the role of budha for the karka lagna, and thanks for elaborated explanation.

and I also do appreciate your personal research. I will certainly explore these pointers.

Quote

I also agree that our Maharshis have not given any such informations in any of the classics

and as it is very secret to know about these things and was hidden.So it is our duty to give

attention to such hidden matters and study them and try to do some research on such

matters.

Unquote

Appreciate your perspective and agree as well.

Quote

But some Scholars are against me as the Aham is not allowing them to try to check such

kind of theories.

Unquote

Well, any jyotish scholar obstructing research publishing is not doing a good karma. As far as I

look at jyotish, as ever evolving science; and we must look at them with open mind. Best test of

any theory (new or old) is in its application in predictive jyotish. if it is working, we must pursue it

further and need not be dogged down by contradictions in shastras itself.

Quote

You see, till now I dont have any website of my own and I thought I can use the Astrology

groups like the present one which is meant to disperse our age old Divine science of


Стр. 24 из 28 05.02.2013 10:56

Jyotish.But they are not interested to listen to me and in such case,I feel that I dont have to

continue in this list.So I will not be available to this list.

Unquote

Well, i have been thoroughly enjoying your notes and from my perspective - questioning never

meant to obstruct, but a way to clear my own contradictions. In my humble view - you must

continue on forums and share your jyotish interpretations / research. and you need not worry about

others' objective of forum participation.

Random Thoughts on Karma and other things

Sunil Nair:

I think all the basis of astrology is karma and its clearly mentioned in bhagavath gheetha. Yes,all

birth is outcome of some karmas and offcourse unfinished karmas,but i know some persons who

has all the abilities in purticular field ,but because of fate or some pressures never make it in this

life otherwise may be they can out smart all personalities in such field.May be in next birth this

deep desire may show in the chart.,all the texts say that vakra graha has cheshtabala and equal to

exaltation ,so in which areas of life it may show .Should be according to karakatwas and

ownerships and placements.

for example- S P Balasubramaniam ,who never learned classical music eventhough belongs to a

parampara of musicians and now symbol of south indian classical music in movies atleast

-because of him and his voice classical music re established its power,so from where may be he

got the sidhi ,should be from past lives ,may be unfinished or un used karma phala

Even in physiognomy (face reading ) the vakra planets shows as some deficincy in purticular

areas.These days of cosmetic surgery may hide many deficincies.

Otherwise which ever theorey we follow in vakratwa of planets ,whether fruitification of years or

in nadi --they aspect from behind or chesta bala or any other they are all points to importance to

some purticular areas in life,which may fruitify with some efforts .

I dont hav any major texts --all i hav is gurupadesa and some reading of general articles from

various savants in astrology.With personal experience and anubhava ,i may use or reject it ,thats

all.

Many of the major text were either corrupted or badly translated or parampara is holding the

secrets.

We need to take a complete replicable theoreys,which may work atleast in 80% of charts.

Even sanskrit is a laungage sansritised(purified) from old indian mohenjadaro harappan (or

saraswathy? ) laungage-which resembles to dravidian laungauges ,it was demostrated by one

raman and discareded by burocracy of india as it may undermine many theoreys we keep now

.(like the scrolls of dead seas-which is old bible-may be original) .

Many of the texts and shastras are translated to sanskrit and now like every thing is translating to

english as it becomes a official laungage of the world .

All shastra india contributed --64 shastras from kamasutra to yoga sutra may be its origin in old


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indian laungage and then sanskritised as india has a undisturbed known history of atleast 10000

years ,even our neighboring china cannt boast of such a vast knowledge with continuous history

.Let people say we imported all knowledge .Even kamasutra uses planets to while dealing with

some situations-esp the movement of moon .I find all this shastras r inter related and contributing

to each other --like a perfectly woven cloth .Whether ayurveda or manthra sastra or tantra

Otherwise the d-charts upto nadiamsas 7 planets and 2 chayagrahas and its upagrahas and more

than 100 dasa sistems and with dasa phala and timing from trudi to manuantaras --4 yugas ,no

where in world .(how can a duplicate outsmart originals ) -One man who has good connection

with jesuit monasteries told me he has seen many texts in latin and hebrew of indian astrology

--yes he can understand as he was brought up by monks and he himself is a scholar of vedic

astology and sisya of sri K N Rao and a european by origin has a differrent profession .

This people may say katha sarith sagara or panchatantra stories-we duplicate arabs alf laila wa

laila (1001 nights) jaimini uses rasi dasas ,still people says we imported rasis from greece . I am

making it short .sorry for my scatterred thoughts

I will appreciate your inputs on the same.

P.S.: Dear Punditji, why don't you upload some of your good old articles in the files section of the

forum. We would all be pleased to have such a recourse available to us.

Sreenadh:

Thanks for the good mail.

Sunil Nair:

I was busy after the tour though activ in this forum .Thanks for encouragement. I downloaded all

artiles of u in files sections ,I some where read in sidha literatures ,indian sidhas got connection

with mayans and some area in america resemebles some names in south shows that connections

,for ex ---appache mountains and appache medu in sabari mala hills and i heard even there is a

place called mount sasta in mayan empire( i am not sure) .

Even docor karansingh prince of kashmir and politician --says their rituals resembles to hindu s

and he also mentioned abt astrology of mayans

is it this mayans has some thing to do with maya the mlecha ---or our maya samhita which is a

treatise in architecture.

sidha litaratue says sidha lands were all part of south including sri lanka which was part and all

australia ,the aborigin of australia speaks some similar words in south they claims ,later some

natuaral calamities and sea taken over all areas now reduced. again some stray thoughts.

Sreenadh:

Quote

Is it this mayans has some thing to do with maya the mlecha ---or our maya samhita which

is a treatise in architecture

Unquote

There could be. But the India fame Maya (the Asura) was the student of Sage Surya. May be he


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could have been a foreigner, who knows! (Mlecha means foreigner, as per ancient terminology)

But for sure Sage Surya was a well known indian sage as evident from the many texts attributed to

him. Sage Surya is counted among the 18 great acharyas of Astrology.

But yes, the similarity between architectural and astronomic contributions of Maya culture and

the Architecture and Astronomic contribution of scholar Maya (of India), create such as awesome

doubt in our mind. Yes, Maya Mata (Maya samhita) that deals with architecture and Maya Hora

that deals with astrology, and Surya Sidhanta that deals with Astronomy are recalled and surge to

the top of memory. Also notice that Maya is considered as the architect of Asuras in puranic

literature. Who knows what were the games played by time and place, in the history of

civilizations!

P.S: But for sure know that `Maya' is NOT `Greek' fore sure. ;)

[Editor: Cerainly this long multi-layered discussion on Retrograde planets with baranched into many and I

found difficult to edit and organize was certainly much informative. Special thanks should go to Ramdas

rao ji for leading such an informative discussion]

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3 comments

Discussion Community Share

• Reply •

sharmila • 18 days ago

my dob is 21/10/1986 at 8.10 am

in tirunelveli.female.getting delayed in marriage.can any one exlplain why.having three retrogade

planets in my chart.very confusing.can anyone explain.

0

• Reply •

Dinesh • 2 months ago

Really grateful for the learned discussion. I have a retro Jupiter in my 2nd house and a

deblitated Saturn with Mars in my 8th. The Lagna lord is combust and debilitated with Sun and

Exalted Venus in 7th. Could you please analyse the impact ? The birth details are: 19th March, 1970,

7:50 PM, Chennai. -Dinesh

0

• Reply •

Umesh BN • 9 months ago

I have retro saturn in my horoscope (DOB: 24-March-1977, TOB: 08.55AM, POB:

Bangalore). Saturn was retro for 18 days from my birth date. So for 18 years my life was excellent

and after that it is ordinary, even i am jobless when i am writing this post. So what Mr. Ramdas Rao

has observed holds good in my case.

Regards

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Last Updated - Sunday, 17 July 2011


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retrograde planets - aia

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