STATE LIBRARY OF SOUTH AUSTRALIA

J. D. SOMERVILLE ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION

OH 692/35

Full transcript of an interview with

RAY DREW

on 8 March 2002

by Rob Linn

Recording available on CD

Access for research: Unrestricted

Right to photocopy: Copies may be made for research and study

Right to quote or publish: Publication only with written permission from the State Library

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OH 692/35 RAY DREW

NOTES TO THE TRANSCRIPT

This transcript was donated to the State Library. It was not created by the J.D. Somerville Oral History Collection and does not necessarily conform to the Somerville Collection's policies for transcription.

Readers of this oral history transcript should bear in mind that it is a record of the spoken word and reflects the informal, conversational style that is inherent in such historical sources. The State Library is not responsible for the factual accuracy of the interview, nor for the views expressed therein. As with any historical source, these are for the reader to judge.

This transcript had not been proofread prior to donation to the State Library and has not yet been proofread since. Researchers are cautioned not to accept the spelling of proper names and unusual words and can expect to find typographical errors as well.

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OH 692/35 TAPE 1 - SIDE A

NATIONAL WINE CENTRE, WOLF BLASS ORAL HISTORY PROJECT.

Interview with Ray Drew at Torrens Park, South Australia, on 8th

March, 2002. Interviewer: Rob Linn.

Ray, just to begin at the beginning, where and when were you

born?

RD: I was born in Adelaide on 15th November, 1922.

Tell me about your parents, Ray.

RD: My parents—the AMP Society seemed to like the Drew family because

my parents lived until they were in their late eighties. My father was the

manager of a hardware company that liquidated during the depression

years. My grandparents also lived into their nineties. So longevity was

quite a feature in the Drew family.

a Your parents’ Christian names, Ray.

RD: My parents’ Christian name—my father was William Cuthbert,

commonly known as Bert Drew. My mother’s name was Linda. I was the

youngest of three children. My father was forty when I was born so we

didn’t grow up and play games together. He was an old man when I was a

teenager, in my opinion.

Were your siblings older than you?

RD: Oh, yes. I was the youngest of three.

So—what?—a brother and a sister, was it?

RD: I had a brother and a sister. Yes, good guess. (Laughs) My sister’s

still alive. She’s five years older than I am. She’s just turned eighty-five.

And my brother died a few years back with that horrible cancer disease.

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Where were you brought up and schooled, Ray?

RD: I was born and educated on the western suburbs, at the Welland

primary school. And then on to Woodville High School. I did an

accountancy course at night school.

Now that was very much part of the era in which you grew up, to do night courses, wasn’t it?

RD: That’s right. It was the in thing. I went to work at fourteen. Was

still in latter depression years, and you did your extra curricula, shall I say,

education at night school. It was the common practice in those days.

And was the education excellent? I mean, my belief is that it was,

particularly accounting.

RD: Oh, yes. I never completed the accountancy course for the simple

reason that the Second World War intervened. I was away for five years so

I never completed it. I did take it up when I was discharged, but I was not

prepared to settle down after a few years away from home.

So Ray, you would’ve got your QC from Woody High? Would that be

right?

RD: No. From Welland Primary School. I did the Intermediate and

Leaving at Woodville High.

When did you get your first job?

RD: That was in 1936.

At age fourteen?

RD: That’s right, yes. No, I beg your pardon. It was in ‘37 that I got the

first job. I’d turned fourteen in ‘36. That’s right. I completed my

education, you might say, in ‘36.

So what was your first job, Ray?

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RD: I was a clerk at Gibbs Bright & Company. A shipping clerk there. And

I joined Hardys in 1940.

So this is before you went to the war that you joined?

RD: Yes. I joined the Navy on the day Japan invaded the Hawaiian

Islands, on the 7th December ‘41.

‘41?

RD: Yes.

Now there’s a date in history. (Laughter)

RD: Yes, bit hard to forget that one.

Ray, tell me about Hardys when you first joined. You came into Mile End, did you? Or Currie Street?

RD: [It was] into Currie Street as a shipping clerk. I was there for

eighteen months before I left for the Navy, and on rejoining in ‘46 and

having studied the accountancy course, I eventually got interested in

administration and did accountancy at Hardys. Became a book-keeper,

you might say. And eventually became their accountant.

Ray, what was Currie Street like in 1940? Upstairs and downstairs.

RD: Currie Street had wooden floors. The basement of Currie Street,

Tintara House, was the total production cellar of sparkling wines. The

ground floor was office administration, and upstairs was rented out to

various people. The original Hardys, of course, lived on the top floor, but

years before I joined the company.

We left there. We sold Tintara House, Currie Street. Now that’s a date

that I can’t quite remember. I think it was ‘69 when we sold Currie Street

and moved to Mile End. I wouldn’t be too sure about that.

That’s when the new office complex was built at Mile End?

RD: Yes.

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Who were some of the people you recall at Currie Street when you

first joined?

RD: Well, Ken Hardy was Chairman at the time. Dick Clark was General

Manager.

Just hang on, Ray, for a tick. Ken would’ve been called in in ‘38

when Tom senior was killed.

RD: When Tom senior was killed in the Kyeema air crash. You’re quite

right. Ken, in those days, was manager of our Sydney office, and when

Tom died he was called over and took over the chairmanship of the

company.

And was Ken an amiable fellow?

RD: Oh, very much so. Very much so, yes. Could never say a nasty word

about anybody. If he didn’t say anything nice, he didn’t say anything. He

was a charming man.

So there was Ken. And then who was the second one you

mentioned?

RD: Dick Clark was manager. They had a company secretary called Austin

Welsh, who actually gave me my job. He didn’t last [long]—only a couple

of years I think before he disappeared off the scene. And a chap called

Thompson was company secretary.

Gavin Main was the accountant. And they had three South Australian

travellers there. About five girls, I suppose, in the office staff, and myself

as shipping clerk. That was the total head office.

And would the major work of Hardys have been through Mile End

and down at Tintara at McLaren Vale?

RD: Yes. We had also the winery at Dorrien in the Barossa. And Cyrilton

at Waikerie.

Of course. Cyrilton was up and running well by then.

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RD: Oh, very much so. Yes, that was mainly for their production of

fortifying spirit. No brandy in those days. The still was purely for fortifying

spirit and sweet wines—fortified wines—many of which were exported.

So it would’ve been bulk export?

RD: Bulk exports to the UK, yes, in the main.

I suppose that the war would’ve interrupted that quite a bit, too.

RD: It did. Severely. Yes, exports virtually ceased during the war, other

than a little to New Zealand.

And you mentioned to me before, Ray, that almost the total market was in fortifieds.

RD: Yes. I would say 90% of the wine market in the industry, including

Hardys, would’ve been fortified wines.

And some of the other staff, Ray, would there have been Roger

Warren at Mile End?

RD: Roger Warren and Dick Heath at Mile End, yes. They were the two

winemakers. Jack Neilson at Waikerie. Bob Hagley at McLaren Vale. And

a chap called Henry Weiss at Dorrien.

So you go to war in the Navy, Ray. How long were you away for?

RD: Five years.

You got back in ‘46.

RD: Yes. Rejoined the company in March ‘46, and retired in July ‘83.

In ‘46 when you came back, was the company in a fairly tight state given the war, or is it still humming along?

RD: The domestic market in Australia was still humming along. Weren’t

making huge profits but they were a profitable company. But like all

companies in those days, the industry was pretty small, with I suppose

Penfolds dominating.

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But, no, we developed exports very quickly after the war, and started up

an export department, and that was very successful.

Was this still in bulk?

RD: Still in bulk, yes. 80/90% was in bulk. But over the years that

gradually developed into more bottled wines and markets were opened up

in, shall I say, the Pacific Islands, New Zealand, Singapore, the UK in

particular. And most bulk wines were then shipped to Canada under the

Emu banner—Emu Wine Company banner. We had contracts with Emu to

supply most of their bulk wine.

So there was a fair bit of to-ing and fro-ing with the Emu people?

RD: Very much so, yes.

So who would some of those people been at that time?

RD: Well, Emu in actual fact was run by Colin Haselgrove in those days.

And Colin was also a member of Hardys Board. So you had that tie.

Emu were based at Morphett Vale?

RD: Emu was at Morphett Vale. That’s quite right. I can’t recall when

they closed down.

Oh, well, that’s in the 70’s.

RD: Oh, yes. It’d be roundabout then.

So that’s the end of that era.

RD: That’s right.

Ray, you were mentioning before that the office remained in Currie

Street until the late 60’s. Was there a continuing expansion of

work after the war? Or was it pretty much steady as she goes?

RD: It was steady as she goes. I suppose when we moved to Mile End,

yes, in the end of ‘69, we started to open interstate branches in

Queensland, Tasmania. Prior to that we only had branches in Melbourne

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and Sydney. We had distributors in Darwin, Canberra, Western Australia

and Tasmania. We opened our own branch in Queensland, although we

were still distributing through the Queensland brewery in those days. It

was really a PR office, but when the brewery takeovers started we actually

developed and opened our distribution branch there. Still remaining very

friendly with the brewery.

Virtually a similar operation happened in Tasmania. We opened a branch

down there. And these branches were bottling branches as well as

distribution branches. We were bottling our own wines in those branches.

Burns Philp & Company remained our distributor in Perth in those days.

Yes, well, Perth is a fairly distant market, isn’t it, in that time?

RD: Yes.

It seemed to be the norm for most companies that they had their

own bottling set-ups.

RD: Yes.

Interstate.

RD: That’s quite right.

Or an agent who had a bottling set-up.

RD: Yes. We virtually shipped everything in bulk and it was bottled.

We’re still talking about fortified wines in general.

Yes.

RD: All table wines—the majority of table wines were bottled in South

Australia.

Well, if we’re talking about the fortifieds, what were Hardys major

products?

RD: Well, the biggest seller in those days was VO Invalid Port. Nullarbor

Champagne, as it was often called.

Also fruity sweet sherry. We had a sweet sherry, a full cream sherry.

Cocktails virtually disappeared with the war. The Manhattan Martini

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cocktail mixers virtually disappeared with the war and the sweet sherries

took over. Took over from the Muscats.

Yes, white Port was a seller in the eastern States. Not in South Australia.

It was a sweet Frontignac Muscatel style.

Ray, we’ve talked a lot about the role of fortifieds. What about the

breweries? I know it’s not of the industry as such, but did the breweries really hold a huge amount of power and sway at the

time?

RD: Yes, they did. The breweries were involved in those days in

distributing, quite a lot of them, wines from the industry. As I mentioned

earlier, Queensland brewery were our distributors in Queensland. I know

some of the other breweries interstate were distributing other company’s

wines. Yes, they had a certain amount of power with fortified wines, but

mainly as distributors earning their commission through bottling and

selling.

Beer would’ve been the big drink for most Australians?

RD: Oh, yes. Beer, very much so. Very much so. Big drink.

The wine in those days was sold—the wine shops had virtually closed with

the war. After the war the wine shops, where you could go and get your

fourpenny dark and all that sort of thing, slowly disappeared from the

scene.

Is this what they called wine saloons in some places?

RD: Wine saloons, quite right, yes.

They were quite common, weren’t they, prior to the war?

RD: They were common prior to the war, yes.

I know a lot of country towns had them, too. Places like Mannum, up the river.

RD: Yes.

You’d get them there.

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RD: A number of community clubs opened up and took over from them—

the Renmark Club, [for axample]. Well, the river towns opened up

community clubs. A number on the west coast opened up and virtually

took over the role of in-house drinking, with both beer and wine. And

spirits, of course.

In terms of table wine production, did many people at Hardys drink

table wine in those days?

RD: Very much so. Yes, I would say that in the cities that nearly

everybody at Hardys—the management team—would go out and have their

bottle of table wine for lunch. And I think that’s where wine and food clubs

first became an interesting factor.

For instance, in Adelaide, the wine industry gathered at the Imperial Hotel

every Friday for luncheons, and other diners would see this industry table

drinking their wines, discussing wines, and became interested. And the

Bacchus Club in Adelaide started up and hundreds of people were

interested in the use of wine with food.

When would this’ve been? In the 50’s, or 60’s?

RD: This would be in the early 50’s, yes. You can almost say the

immediate postwar years. And slowly developed as time passed.

Ray, was the food pretty standard at places like the Imperial?

RD: The Beefsteak and Burgundy Club, for instance, of which I was

fortunate enough to be one of the founding eight, actually started Imperial

Hotel. And Des Leahy, the then owner/proprietor of the hotel, he would

buy the prizewinning carcasses in beef competitions, and hang them for

several weeks, and then serve them at these Beefsteak and Burgundy Club

dinners. I think that’s part of the reason the name, Beefsteak, became

synonymous with the Beefsteak and Burgundy Clubs.

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And, yes, food played a tremendous part. We not only discussed wines, we

discussed food, because in my opinion wine can only complement food. It

can’t go the other way around.

With your memory, Ray, would you recall some of the wines you

had at the time of being really top class wines? I know it’s

probably a bit difficult to go back.

RD: Well, in those days we had the standard Penfolds Reserve. We had

the Seppelts Moystons. We had the Hardys St Thomas Burgundy.

Yalumba Galway. They were standard table wines, but they were the best

that the winemakers could produce from the available grapes at that time.

And one of the biggest problems, of course, was to get grape growers

interested in growing table wine varieties compared to their Port and

Muscat varieties.

Of course.

RD: There was a very slow transition there.

About this time, too, is when Colin Gramp brings in the cold and pressure fermentation and makes that first Barossa Riesling. I

don’t know if you recall that.

RD: Oh, I recall it very well.

That was ‘52.

RD: That was ‘52, was it?

Yes.

RD: Well, you’re quite right because I mentioned the Beefsteak and

Burgundy Club originated in ‘54. So, yes, it was all happening in that

period—the same period.

It must’ve been really a very exciting time, Ray …

RD: It was a challenging time.

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‘56 Barossa Pearl comes out roughly at the same time of the

Games. I mean, that must’ve set the industry on its head in one

way.

RD: Yes. I can remember Porphyry Pearl. All those pearls developed—the

glass company came out with special bottles for it. They had to be

pressure bottles, of course. But, yes, I think what Colin Gramp did for the

industry with Barossa Pearl was a tremendous step in the transformation

to, and introduction of, table wine.

So from this period that you’re talking about when the food and

wine clubs start to meet—and, oh, you mentioned earlier, too,

about immigration.

RD: That’s right.

With European migrants coming, having an influence.

RD: Yes.

There must’ve been a steady progression of increasing interest in

wine.

RD: There was. And the general public were hogging for information in

the use of wine. They didn’t know what to order—went out to dinner to

celebrate an occasion, they didn’t know what to order. And their

knowledge came from word of mouth, through these wine and food club

members, and the interest just snowballed, with the result that to my

knowledge today there are hundreds of wine and food clubs, the beginning

of which started here in South Australia.

So you were involved, Ray, with the first people like David Crosby?

RD: Yes.

Beefsteak and Burgundy?

RD: Yes. I tried to dig up a couple of things. Here we are. I dug up this

photo of the original eight of the Beefsteak and Burgundy Club back in ‘54.

I didn’t know whether it would be of any use to you.

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I recognise you, and Tom Hardy, David Crosby. Now that person

was head of wine judges at the Adelaide Show.

RD: George Fairbrother.

George Fairbrother.

RD: David Cleland. Jack Edwards. Dick Clark. And Bob Clampett.

Oh, where’s Bob?

RD: Here. Bob had his own wine and spirit company, if you remember.

I do.

RD: Well, they were the original eight that started the Beefsteak and Burgundy Club.

And from there it all took off.

RD: From there it all took off. I don’t know whether you’re interested—

you’ve probably seen it before—the history of the Beefsteak and Burgundy

Club.

Yes, I managed to get a copy of this, thanks, Ray, which is great.

RD: That’s alright then.

Had there been anything in the industry like that before, Ray?

RD: No. The Beefsteak and Burgundy Club differed from the Bacchus

Club. Whereas the Bacchus Club had several country branches, but they

were big clubs, we used to sit down in the Adelaide Railway Station and

have lunch in there and a hundred people would turn up. And they would

have their meal and their wines and a guest speaker, and it would all be

over in an hour. Beefsteak and Burgundy Club luncheons were also

confined to the hourly time factor but we were limited in membership to—I

think we started off with twenty-five and extended it to thirty. But the

interest would be in discussing the food and wine. And I think knowledge

of the use of wine with food spread far greater, and more quickly, through

Beefsteak and Burgundy Clubs than it did with the larger wine and food

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clubs. You had your epicurean clubs in Victoria and New South Wales, and

all sorts of things. But they all played their part in the transformation and

the introduction of table wines.

Would you’ve been involved with occasions like Wine Weeks?

RD: Oh, very much so. Oh, yes.

How did they work, Ray?

RD: They were unusual things, but in my opinion the Wine Weeks,

although they were great publicity factors for the industry, it was the wine

industry entertaining the wine industry. There was very little public

involvement in the early days, but we had great fun. Great fun.

Could they be anywhere in Australia?

RD: Anywhere in Australia, yes. Used to virtually take it in turns of going

around the various States.

So that was pretty much like an industry based conference, was it?

RD: It really was, yes. But there was very little, as I mentioned, public

involvement.

Were the wine shows at the various agricultural society shows

important at the time?

RD: Yes, mainly with the table wines. And sparkling wines. The publicity

generated through prize winning wines you might say—I think was used by

marketing sectors of the industry. But in my opinion it was overdone. It

finished up with too many—every little wine producing area had a wine

show. And you’d get gold medals appearing on wines from any wine

district throughout the country, and it was overdone. They should’ve been

confined to capital cities and perhaps a national show in Canberra and

forget all the other smaller areas.

All the minor ones.

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RD: Yes. But they still played an important part.

So Ray, coming into the 1960’s, from what you’ve been telling me, there’s an increasing appreciation of wine. Was wine being

marketed differently by this time, or how did the new style of

marketing come in?

RD: No, the marketing—advertising didn’t play its part. It was mainly

word of mouth through the wine/food clubs. Everybody in the industry

when they went out to a meal would use table wine. And it was this factor

of the word spreading very slowly. Because I think it took two decades for

people to become aware that table wine was an actual complement to food.

Prior to that it was the hock and lemon idea—drinking at bars or socially

rather than with food, was the only use of table wine. Claret and soda.

Mind you, in the hot weather I still enjoy a claret and soda.

About this time, too, people like Len Evans were writing nationally

in newspapers -

RD: Yes.

- and Max Lake was having his first book published.

RD: That’s quite right.

So that, too, must’ve been -

RD: Max Lake, yes. Maurice O’Shea played a tremendous part in the

Hunter River. Len Evans, entrepreneur plus. Probably had verbal

diarrhoea but I think it was good for the industry. Yes, they all played their

part. All happened in that period of the 50’s and 60’s.

TAPE 1 - SIDE B

Ray, we’ve been talking about this growth of interest in the

industry right through into the 60’s. Your job’s changing at that

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time, I guess. You’re proceeding up the Hardy ladder, if that’s the

way of putting it. What were you doing in the 60’s into the 70’s?

RD: Yes, I was still accountant of Hardys in the 60’s. I got involved with

marketing in the late 60’s. Became Marketing Manager mid 60’s, and

eventually appointed to the Board as Marketing Director in ‘69, becoming

responsible for the total marketing operation through all our branches, and

was particularly interested in export. Yes, quite a transition from the pen-

pushing days.

And Ray, what are the changes that you see eventuating in the

industry in terms of marketing the product, and the variety of

product?

RD: I think the transition came when the traditional names were dropped

and we developed the use of grape varietal names. I think packaging

changed. A product had to be, shall I say, shelf appealing. The labels had

to be informative. Not only grape varieties but districts. Vintages

appeared that never did before. And the technical advantages that were

happening, of course, played a tremendous part. Wine was not something

that you screwed your nose up about. It became a very, very popular

drink, complementing food in particular.

It also began to be used as just social drinks, without food. And with the

number of table wine varieties increasing in number, and the different

flavours that appealed to both male and female, it slowly took off.

What were some of the major campaigns that you might remember,

Ray?

RD: Well, of course, after the Barossa Pearl era, and Porphyry Pearls and

all the pearls that came out -

Sparkling Rinegolde.

RD: Sparkling Rinegolde. You name it. Every company developed their

pressure cookers. They were, I think, a wonderful introduction for young

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people into the use of wine. Then the flavours came. I remember Hardys

introduced a champagne and orange called Sparkling Swinger.

Yes, they did, too. I remember that product.

RD: That was supported by a big television campaign that cost a lot of

money. It was a hit for a couple of years, but unfortunately a couple of

drums of the orange concentrate that was supplied from a contractor up

the river—I won’t name him—wasn’t up to standard and a batch of this

Sparkling Swinger hit the market that wasn’t palatable and virtually

destroyed it overnight. But I think that type of drink—flavoured drinks—

have got a limited marketing time factor anyway. But, yes, it had its fling.

And several other companies tried various products. And in those days the

introduction of flavoured canned drinks were coming into being.

This is the UDL type …

RD: UDL type of thing. I remember Hardys introduced canned Black

Bottle Brandy and dry ginger ale.

They did indeed, yes.

RD: I had a personal instance [with that one]. In its early introductory

stage I took a couple of iced cans down to golf one day, and on the first

short tee I said to my playing partners, ‘Well, you’d better try this black

canned brandy and dry. It’s not only good to drink, it really does

wonderful things for your golf’. I teed off and had a hole in one.

(Laughter) That’s a fact. I don’t think the Grange Golf Club was ever the

same since. But there you are.

How many dozen cans did you sell? (Laughs)

RD: So there you are, you see. You’ve got to laugh about these things.

Apart from the hole in one, what did they think of the drink, Ray?

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RD: It was very successful. But once again, had a shelf life because those

sort of things come and go. And I think UDL persevered much longer than

any other company with their various spirits.

The flavoured pop drinks also came into being. They had a very limited

life. Quite frankly, I don’t go out much these days other than to the odd

luncheon and have my bottle of red. You’ve got your beers now coming in,

and all sorts of marketing tools.

All the fancy ones, yes.

RD: All the fancy ones, yes.

They certainly are. Ray, by the 1970’s, there’s been an enormous rise in the

appreciation of wine in Australia, and this also brings a new type of

retailer into existence. Very large volume retailers, both—mainly in the eastern States.

RD: Yes.

Are you caught up in the beginnings of all this, too?

RD: No. No. Oh, slightly. Yes, the one that I can recall is when Coles

came into it, and we got involved with Coles in supplying but they screwed

so hard that there wasn’t much in it. So as we were in business to make a

profit, we pulled out of that and let them go their own way.

But, yes, the big buyers. The quantity discounts became quite a marketing

tool. Buy it by the semi-trailer and you got ex discount and so on. And

this, of course, caused group hoteliers and retailers to merge—get

together. Form their buying groups to get the quantity discounts. Buying

power became quite a new adjunct to the industry. I left the industry in

early 80’s and that was just really taking off then.

Well, the one thing you were very much involved with, Ray, was the beginnings of the modern export market. I’d love you to tell me a

little bit about your work on export for Hardys.

RD: Well, I only did the background work. We introduced a marketing

section. We had a manager and an assistant manager, both of whom

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spent the majority of their time going to various overseas markets to (a)

establish distributors, and to spread the word of Australian wine generally.

Hardys in particular. Very successful. Other companies started the same

sort of thing. And Australian wines slowly built up a reputation for value

for money.

We always reserved some top quality wines to send overseas, and to

establish that, and I think that really helped Australian industry get its

name as a quality market. The results today, as I read in the press and

industry tit-bits, you know, Australian wines are still going from strength to

strength.

Well, they are. Has that surprised you at all?

RD: No. No, it has not surprised me. I think the total success factor, and

the volume, has probably gone off much quicker than anybody expected—

the success of it. But, no, having been overseas myself on many

occasions, not in marketing but on private excursions, I found that the vin

ordinaire French, Italian, American wines are nowhere near the quality of

the vin ordinaire Australian wines. The big markets are in the lower price

range, and our wines are miles ahead in general terms of other country’s

wines. And I think it’s been one of the success factors. Yes, we’ve had our

Grange Hermitages and the popularity of some of the top Australian wines.

I hope they don’t price themselves out of the market. They’re only

available in limited quantities anyway. But they’ve also helped to play their

part in the advance of the quality of the Australian wines.

The other factor, Ray, that I very much wanted to hear your opinion

about was that through most of your time in the industry the wine

companies were owned by families. Would that be a fair comment?

RD: Oh, yes. Very much so. Very much so, yes. And very successfully

run family companies. I’m trying to think who the first takeover was.

Probably Gramps.

It was indeed.

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RD: Yalumba have held out. McWilliams have held out. And I wish them

every success, but today the industry’s changed and—well, I know the way

Hardys have done since their merger with Berri Renmano. Have gone from

strength to strength. Marketing expertises—administration and marketing

expertise—come into play, and it’s certainly paid off.

Looking back over your time in the industry, Ray, what would’ve been the largest change you have seen?

RD: I would say that it’s in packaging. The introduction of bag-in-the-box.

I think it’s been the biggest factor in helping Australians, first of all, afford

wine. The quality of the table wines in bag-in-the-box today, of course, is

far greater—and thank God—than it was when a lot of them were

introduced. But it’s only quality now that will succeed. And if there are

any companies now not prepared to put quality in bag-in-the-box they’re

going to disappear very, very quickly. Because competition is now really at

its peak.

Through your years at Hardys, did you ever have situations occur

where there was government intrusion into the industry in a big way?

RD: Only with brandy excise. No, I can’t say that the government

intruded to any degree that I can recall really was a stopping factor of

development of the industry.

Ray, it was obviously an enjoyable time for you, though. There’s no

doubt about it. You stuck at it. (Laughs)

RD: Well, I think we all like a bit of a challenge. Yes, I stuck at it. I had a

couple of other offers to leave the industry but, no, I was too involved.

And working for the company that I did, I thoroughly enjoyed the success

that they were having, and if I played my part or contributed in any small

manner I was more than happy.

So Hardys was a good place to be, was it?

RD: Hardys was a good place to be, yes.

22

Well, thank you very, very much for talking to me, Ray.

RD: You’re very welcome.

I greatly appreciated all your thoughts.