STATE LIBRARY OF SOUTH AUSTRALIA

J. D. SOMERVILLE ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION

OH 692/116

Full transcript of an interview with

PHIL RYAN

on 5 May 2003

by Rob Linn

Recording available on CD

Access for research: Unrestricted

Right to photocopy: Copies may be made for research and study

Right to quote or publish: Publication only with written permission from the State Library

2

OH 692/116 PHIL RYAN

NOTES TO THE TRANSCRIPT

This transcript was donated to the State Library. It was not created by the J.D. Somerville Oral History Collection and does not necessarily conform to the Somerville Collection's policies for transcription.

Readers of this oral history transcript should bear in mind that it is a record of the spoken word and reflects the informal, conversational style that is inherent in such historical sources. The State Library is not responsible for the factual accuracy of the interview, nor for the views expressed therein. As with any historical source, these are for the reader to judge.

This transcript had not been proofread prior to donation to the State Library and has not yet been proofread since. Researchers are cautioned not to accept the spelling of proper names and unusual words and can expect to find typographical errors as well.

3

OH 692/116 TAPE 1 - SIDE A

AUSTRALIAN WINE ORAL HISTORY PROJECT.

Interview with Phil Ryan at Mount Pleasant, Pokolbin, on 5th May,

2003. Interviewer: Rob Linn.

Phil, where and when were you born, please?

PR: I was born in the UK, in Yorkshire in Leeds, on 2nd March, 1946.

Tell me about your parents, Phil. Who were they?

PR: Mum and Dad—Bill and Doreen—were great people. Unfortunately

they've just passed away in recent years.

My father had a great love for wine. He was involved in the travel industry

in the UK and spent a lot of time in Europe. In fact, my father did an

outrageous thing, he took my mother there before they were engaged for a

trip through Bordeaux in 1938. Little did he know that he was going to

come back a year later, not as a visitor but as part of the British Army.

(Laughter) He spent a bit of time on the beaches at Dunkirk, and then

went to Tobruk where he faced another defeat and spent the rest of the

year in a prisoner of war camp—all the way back to Germany.

When he came out of the Army—he was still in travel, obviously had that

taste in his blood—he came home to Mum one day, about 1950, and said,

‘I’ve booked a passage. We’re going on the maiden voyage of the

Oronsay. We’re going to Australia’. Mum said, ‘Thought we were going to

go to Canada’. (Laughs) So we came out here, and my other twin brother,

and we set up home at Bondi.

As a child I remember having wine in the house in those early 50s, which

was quite unusual considering that with my friends—other friends—you

were considered of questionable extraction if you drank wine.

4

Yes. I do remember that myself, Phil. You were called many

names.

PR: Yes. (Laughs)

So this was table wine?

PR: Yes, table wine. Also sherry. He had a great love for things like

Manzanilla and Amontillado, so they were in our cupboard at home. My

brother and I would come home from school and try and lower the level

without him getting too aware of the fact. (Laughter)

So was he mainly drinking imported wine?

PR: No. He preferred white wine to red. I think that was probably an

English idea as well. Things like Chablis and white Hock and white

Burgundy and that sort of thing.

My mother also liked a tipple. She didn't drink a lot of wine, but Father

used to share a glass. The big event for us was to go to a restaurant

probably once a year, and Dad would tell us what people were drinking on

tables around us. As a child, I was aware that wine wasn't something to be

scared of.

As you grew up, in your teen years and beyond that, how did you

get caught up in the industry, Phil?

PR: I must thank my mother this time. My father insisted that I get a job.

I wanted to ride a surf board the rest of my life—(Laughs)—and I couldn't

see really the relevance of working. But I started going to part-time

university doing a degree in applied chemistry. I started doing a diploma

first of all in applied chemistry, and then went across and did an applied

science degree.

I went to Waverley College, and then after I finished school I got a job with

Berger Paints in their research laboratory, in their full gloss section. Pretty

fascinating stuff. I was there only a few months when my mother showed

me an advertisement in the paper, and it was with McWilliams wines for a

laboratory assistant at Pyrmont. She suggested that I should apply for it.

5

I did. And the interview date—I got an afternoon off to go to university,

and my father met me at Sydney central railway and drove me down to the

interview at Pyrmont. He sat outside while I had the interview. He made

sure that I went. (Laughs)

This is the Yorkshire trust, is it?

PR: Yes. (Laughter)

The interviewer was a very famous man in the wine industry, and in

McWilliams terms—Bruce Tyson. I remember telling Bruce that my Dad

was outside. He said, ‘Well, bring him in and I’ll show him around the

cellars’. (Laughs)

Oh, really?

PR: So he went for a walk around the cellars with him.

How did Bruce Tyson strike you, even at the first interview?

PR: I was very impressed with the man. He was a very genuine and a

very likeable person. I’ll never forget walking into that laboratory. Having

worked for some few months in the paint laboratories, the aromas were

somewhat significantly different. (Laughs)

You could appreciate them all, Phil, couldn't you?

PR: Very much so.

The first day I started there, I’ll never forget it. It was pouring with rain. I

turned up at the lab and got started on reading some of the analysis and

what to do etc. Then at lunchtime Bruce came out of his office and walked

into the private cellar that we had at the back of the lab and extracted a

bottle—it would've been O’Shea wine—and we sat down and we had it with

sandwiches for lunch. That was considered part of the job. You had to

keep on tasting, and a good bottle of wine for lunch shared amongst all the

lab staff wasn't considered a treat, it was considered part of your work role.

That must've been a trait(?) right through the industry I reckon.

6

PR: Yes.

It wasn't just a hospitable thing, it was really all about the

educational side, as the older folk saw it?

PR: That's right. Bruce used to insist that you're always tasting. One of

the sayings he had was, ‘The more you taste, the more you learn’. I

thought that’s not a bad way of getting an education, is it? (Laughter)

Did he talk a lot about memory too, in that?

PR: No. With Bruce, it was mainly current—what was happening. There

was so much happening in the industry then. And also reflect on things

like O’Shea up here. At morning tea there might be some discussion on

that. There were a lot of things happening in the wine industry then. It

was a very focal(?) industry. It was all new and exciting.

So was the laboratory work, unlike Berger, was actually a bit of fun, was it?

PR: Oh, it was fantastic. I thoroughly enjoyed it because it was just so

interesting. And it was so user friendly as well. (Laughs)

So McWilliams, as a company, really did have that family sense

about it?

PR: Yes. Very much so. McWilliams when I started in ‘65 was the leading

laboratory in the wine industry in Australia. It had equipment there that

was only a matter of years old in Australia. Things like a atomic

absorption. We were measuring a range of metals that was unheard of.

And Bruce actually built the whole system from various pieces of Zeiss

equipment. And lenses. He was a leader in technology in those days. So I

was in the right place at the right time. Simple as that.

So Bruce was a trained winemaker?

PR: Bruce was also a university graduate—chemistry graduate—and he

was employed by McWilliams in the 40s to sort out their problems. They

7

had a significantly great number of them—in bacterial spoilage, in oxidative

spoilage. You know, the use of SO2 and filtration. Bruce was brought in to

sort out what was a mess then. Bruce used to tell me that they'd be

sending one truck out for delivery and another truck would be bringing the

previous delivery back, you know, because of the spoilage problems.

That must've been par for the course across a lot of the industry because you hear of people like Bruce Tyson, and John Fornachon,

in that period. These were the chemists, if you like, who were

bringing in a new understanding for the industry.

PR: Yes. And there wasn't the role of the winemaker like it is today. The

winemakers within the company basically reported to Bruce. It was a joy

for me being in the laboratory at the time because we saw all the wines as

they were finishing fermentation. They came there for analysis. We were

the central analysis place. So any new blends, or any changes in terms of

marketing opportunities, it all went through the laboratory first. They

virtually put together the opportunities the company had in that period of

time.

Phil, when you joined, Maurice O’Shea would've only died the year

before?

PR: No. He died in ‘56.

‘56? That's right. I was thinking ‘64. It was ‘56.

PR: Yes.

But his memory still lived on?

PR: Oh, yes. You mentioned the family connection. That was something

that was stressed upon me. The whole range of people who worked in the

company at the time—you know, you stay with the company and become

part of the family. It was a family atmosphere. And then O’Shea’s aura, if

you like, was just revered. They appreciated what he had done for the

company, and what they owed him.

8

How did your Yorkshire parents take to this young lad in the

laboratory at McWilliams?

PR: Oh, they used to look forward to the samples that I brought home.

(Laughter)

Okay.

PR: Bruce was really good. Obviously you can't just take wine out without

paying for it, but we would get check samples. So every sample you got

in, you'd put in the cellar, and after six or eight months you had to get rid

of those samples. It was a waste of good wine to tip it into a cocktail base

or something, so you'd put them in your briefcase and take them home and

share it with your family. (Laughter) They'd appreciate it.

What a lovely thought. And Phil, who were some of the memorable people, other than

Bruce, that you recall?

PR: I remember Max Lake from the very beginning when he started his

development here. He used to come to the laboratory. He planted about

‘65 or ‘66. It may've been ‘64. I can't quite remember the year now.

When his very first wines were made, he'd often come in the lab with

samples. I’ve gone through various analysis for him. He’d sit on a stool

and chat about what he was doing there and that sort of thing. I

remember him as being quite visionary in terms of the Hunter. There were

only six companies here then. So for Max to come in and do this was

pretty exciting times.

Len Evans, of course. He was there. I’m trying to think now.

Oh, I remember the Penfold family coming in. Rada Penfold, and then

Rebel, and Penfold Hyland coming in the lab once.

I remember Bob Askin, the Premier of New South Wales, coming in the lab.

The lab was used virtually as a public relations facility as well. Anybody

who was interested in the wine at the time would come to McWilliams to

what they called the Jolly Friar Room and the Cask Room. They might go

there for lunch or something, and then part of the trip would be to come

down and have a look at our laboratory. (Laughs) All manner of people.

9

In terms of a breakdown at the time, Phil, would McWilliams have

been, on percentage, producing more fortified than table?

PR: Oh, yes, definitely more fortified. But at that period Australians

weren't drinking—when I first started—a lot of table wine as such anyway.

It was a growth period, and people were discovering it. What had kept

McWilliams going for the previous forty for fifty years had been fortified

wine. There's no question of that. They had a lot of wine bars. We had a

lot of licences.

Yes, Don told me about that.

PR: There was a McWilliams wine bar on every corner. (Laughs)

Fascinating places.

You think back to the history of Australian wine, and I think it was about

1890 or so, they drank more table wine then, until 1970. There's been the

depression, recessions and wars and things. People had lost their focus on

table wine.

I think probably because the export market became fortified

focused.

PR: Yes.

Then they lost that and got it back again, and lost it.

PR: Yes.

And so it goes on.

PR: McWilliams were able to survive really by sussing out what the real

market was, as did Penfolds and Lindemans during that period of time.

They made a lot of fortified wine as well. And Seppelts of course.

Actually Phil, thinking about it, you came in right at the time when

table wine was beginning to move.

PR: Exactly. I had a strange experience when I handed my resignation in

at Berger Paints. The chap who was in charge then, who was the Technical

10

Director of the company, his office was right next to our laboratory. I gave

him my resignation and he said, ‘I can't understand why you're going to

the wine industry and leaving the paint industry. There's no future in the

wine industry in Australia’. (Laughs) I remember those words. And I

thought I think I’ll prove him wrong. (Laughs)

I think he did get it wrong somewhere along the line.

PR: Yes.

So what was your path in McWilliams then, Phil?

PR: Well, I was going part time, first of all, to the Institute of Technology

where I finished the degree in science in applied chemistry. During that

period I was in the laboratory. Eventually, after a couple of years, I

became laboratory manager and had three or four people working in the

lab. I then consciously wanted to move into the production area, so I

moved across into quality control and got more hands-on that way, actually

operating filters and being more involved in the actual bottling. And in ‘75

I moved out from Pyrmont to Chullora. Again, I applied for that because

that's where the company was going to move all its production eventually,

but this is the early days when they first built the warehouse there.

I just suddenly thought, that means that Pyrmont was the major

bottling line.

PR: It was, yes. All the packaging was done there for the whole company.

Yes. I should've asked you that then. It struck me that's just totally unlike today, isn't it?

PR: Oh, yes. It's not there any more now. Sorry, I’ll take that back. It is

still that way today. All our packaging is down out at Chullora at our

warehouse in Sydney, but in Pyrmont days we did have a bottling line in

Melbourne, and we did have a small bottling line in Brisbane, but they were

only doing fortifieds. Griffith sent wine through to Brisbane and to

Melbourne, and they would take samples from the tanker, and then take

samples as they bottled them. We had to keep on cross checking so there

11

were no mess ups. And at the same time McWilliams were bottling wine in

New Zealand. So we also kept on eye on what they were doing there as

well. We had a company in New Zealand. Don might have touched on that

yesterday.

Yes, he did. Bruce Tyson was involved with that, too?

PR: All of that, yes.

Yes, that's right.

PR: So they eventually closed down Melbourne and Brisbane, and also we

lost the one in New Zealand, and then Pyrmont became the operation for

the whole company. Then we were going to move to Chullora, which took

a long, long time, so I moved across in advance with a couple of bottling

lines. I thought it was an opportunity to get out of the Head Office.

(Laughs) And in the meantime I had been doing vintages here and in

Griffith. I came up here in ‘67 and ‘71, and in Griffith in ‘75, so I had been

looking at what we were doing.

Phil, would you like to tell us about those vintages you did up here

and at Griffith? The people and the places.

PR: Yes. It was ‘67 when I first came up here. I only came for a few

days, and that was to understand how the laboratory fitted in with the

thing. And it was a dirt road into here. I hadn't booked any

accommodation, and in the end Cessnock was full and I had to almost go

back to Newcastle to get accommodation for the first night. (Laughs) It

was pretty basic stuff. The only restaurants here were in the pubs. Frank

Margan would've told that story, no doubt.

Yes.

PR: Great people up here. Brian Walsh was manager then. Some of the

old guys were hysterical, the old cow-cockies that were working here.

There was just a wonderful country feeling. Coming from North Bondi to

here was, in those days, almost a life change. You couldn't imagine the

12

different sort of feeling. I just loved the whole concept. And in ‘71, I came

here for a couple of months. It rained, I think every day. It was probably

the worst vintage we've ever had in the Hunter Valley. It was a horrific

year. And we were also making wine for Hungerford Hill’s first vintage.

So Norman Hanckel was there.

PR: Yes. So he was here a lot. And Simon Curran. They had helicopters

coming in, and all this sort of activity going on. It was pretty exciting

times again.

My fiancé came up then for the first time. I was staying in Cessnock in an

old shack behind the radio cabs’ office, and the roof leaked. She came in

and said, ‘No way am I going to stay here tonight’. (Laughs) We had to

take her to Maitland to find a motel there. I told her my desire then to

eventually come up here permanently, and she was horrified at the

thought. (Laughs) She was hoping I’d get over it one day. But we didn't.

Then in ‘75 in Griffith, that was my first year in Charles Sturt. Bruce Tyson

had convinced me that I should do the Charles Sturt degree as well.

‘75. Was Brian there then?

PR: No.

Tony?

PR: Tony was the chemistry lecturer from New South Wales Uni. He was

going around drumming up support. He came into Pyrmont to convince me

to do it. And then Brian came in a bit later.

It was the next year, wasn't it?

PR: Yes, the following year. Brian came in ‘76. And that was the best

thing I ever did because, again, it got me out of the constraints of just

packaging. Actually got into the vineyards with people like Chris Pfeiffer.

One of my closest friends became Peter Hayes. We did the chemistry

course together, and lab courses and things together. We had similar

degrees so we missed all the hard stuff and got all the fun stuff. (Laughs)

13

What were Brian Croser and Tony Jordan pushing in the course?

And the others.

PR: Well, Brian had just left Hardys, and his big passion was oxidation in

white wines, and making better white wines. He was determined to drag

the industry up to the level that he’d achieved. And his understanding of

the problems of oxidation, from a practical point of view, were just

revelation. It started a whole ground swell, and I know there was a lot of

resentment from the older members of our company, and other companies.

Bruce was never anti Croser but he would sometimes question, if you like,

the support that Croser was getting. I know that Glen McWilliam had a

very bad falling out with Brian over some of the issues at Charles Sturt.

Brian was a pretty direct person, and if he thought people were wrong,

he’d tell them. (Laughs)

Yes.

PR: He was very young. He was well ahead of his time. So I had

enormous respect for Brian.

Tony was on a learning curve because Tony hadn't done any winemaking.

He had no viticultural knowledge, so he was there to get the science side of

it going and then phase into the winemaking side, which he did very well.

They were heady days, and people like Day-sy—Robin Day—we all started

together as a group. There were about nine of us. And Gary—call him

‘Apples’. He’s got his own company now. Gary Baldwin. It was that sort

of little mob. We had a lot of fun. My wife used to reckon that I went

away for a holiday every semester. (Laughs) It was really hard work,

those residential schools.

So I hear from everybody that was there. They said we thought

we’d done it before. Because a lot of you who were in that actually had degrees already of some sort, didn't you?

14

PR: Yes. I think there were nine or ten of us who already had degrees, so

we formed a nucleus of the second half of the course. Then they had a lot

of the young fellows starting to fill up the early part. Or young ladies.

That's right. Women as well. I forgot that. I think Pam Dunsford

was the first one at Roseworthy only a couple of years before.

PR: Yes.

So there were not too many in the industry then.

PR: No. But it was the start of a new beginning in the Australian wine

industry. Again, it was the early 70s period when the wine industry was

expanding and people were looking to make better wines. And the show

system was cranking up.

Yes. Was there a lot of interaction between all of you, Phil?

PR: Oh, yes.

It's not just company borders?

PR: No. It was just a great place to be. People just opened their souls.

And Croser could do that in a class. He could get people to talk. He was a

remarkable man.

Was Pru Henschke there then?

PR: No.

I’m just trying to remember how this comes into it.

PR: Well, I finished in ‘78.

I think she might've been after that.

PR: Yes. It was roundabout that time though.

There's a cross fertilisation happening though, Phil, is there?

PR: Yes.

15

I mean, did you feel free if you had an issue with something you

could ring up one of your mates?

PR: Yes.

And vice versa?

PR: Yes, very much so. There were no boundaries at all. It was really

good. I used to rattle the cage a bit at McWilliams after that on white wine

issues, packaging and SO2 and oxidation etc. In some small way I was

seen as some sort of little revolutionary running around Chullora and

Pyrmont. (Laughter) And then when Brian Walsh’s assistant, Geoff

Schrapel from Bethany, left from here to go back to South Australia, first of

all to work with Lindemans I think it was, I put my hand up and said, ‘I

want to go up there’. And Don McWilliams said to me, ‘What do you want

to take a pay cut for?’ I said, ‘I want to go’. So we did.

I remember Don driving me up with Bruce. We came up in the first week

of January 1978 to look at some vineyards where we were going to buy

some grapes. I was told I got the job late ‘77. There was a sort of

changeover period and I came up with Bruce and Don in January. And Don

said, ‘You know, you won't like it up here. Your wife won't like it up here’.

(Laughs) I think he was just testing me out, as he would. But there we

are, it all worked out for the best with both.

So had you actually really taken to the area, or what was it?

PR: Yes. I wanted to get into winemaking, and I was desperate to get out

of the operational side of the business. I wanted to get my hands dirty.

After mixing with so many of the people through Charles Sturt, I said that

that's where my love was. It was either with McWilliams or I was going to

look around. Luckily for me, the opportunity came. So we moved up here.

My wife still tells everybody how we left a fairly new home in Sydney on

the northern beaches, in a little cul-de-sac, with all friends of her own age.

We had two little tiny children. One was ten months old, and one had just

turned two. Her life was quite set in front of her. She was quite happy.

(Laughs) And I came home and told her we were moving. When we did

16

eventually move, she cried all the way up here. And then of course, we

had to rent a house in Cessnock and some of the neighbours were

interesting people, to say the least. Pretty rough time. She said that I’d

come home from work beaming about having lunch with Murray Tyrrell or

Len Evans, or something. (Laughs) But now she’d never go back. This is

our real home.

Is there something up here that sort of gets people in that way?

PR: I think, again, this close camaraderie. I’ve been involved for many

years with the Hunter Valley Vineyard Association. We've got nothing to

hide from each other. We’re all trying to do the same job. That is, sell

more wine to more people. I’ve been on the technical committees for quite

a lot of years. We do a lot of seminars and things. It's a matter of sharing

the information and trying to lift the bar as high as we can, and getting as

much shared information as you can get.

So it's a sense of community.

PR: Yes.

TAPE 1 - SIDE B

Well, Phil, you said that a sense of community grows up here. Since you arrived, what have been some of the critical occurrences

that've shaped the industry in the area?

PR: That's a good point.

Well, I guess the environment does shape it pretty frequently, doesn't it?

PR: Yes.

The Hunter’s an extremely difficult place to make wine consistently, and

grow grapes. As we all know, it rains at all the wrong time of the year, and

17

then it doesn't rain too much of the year. So that the people here really do

feel challenged all the time. There's never an easy part of the year, so that

brings people close together. That's really what knits the group together

here, just knowing how difficult it is.

And the changes in the market. I suppose there’s the warm climate/cool

climate issue. That was the big deal in the 80s. Prior to that, I suppose in

the 70s, it was the new advances in winemaking technology. So it was the

Croser-isms, if you like. Murray would scream out, you know, that he's not

going to put up with these Croser-isms in his company. (Laughs) But it

was the simple things. I mean, getting them right. You know, the SO2

correct and inert gas etc etc. So all that was coming into the industry and

people were more aware of looking for fruit flavour and retention. That

was the 70s.

In the 80’s, it was the challenge of Chardonnay and, again, the warm

climate/cool climate thing. I think there was an atmosphere sometimes of

being slightly threatened. You know, now our wines are no longer

accepted as being quality because they're not cool climate. I think we rode

through all that with fairly good show successes. Now people just look at

the grape variations in Australia, and the joy of having all that. You know,

there's no longer this sort of one camp or the other camp.

Viticulture has been where all the difficult areas have been. We've had the

problem of the longicorn beetle for a number of years, low water supply,

botrytis, and all those issues. Particularly water. There's fairly poor soils in

many areas. Lack of water, and then things like debilitating effects of

longicorn, or even some of the nematodes in the sandier soils. That's what

makes viticulture very difficult.

So there's been this activity of boom and bust in the area quite regularly,

probably three or four times since I’ve been here. A lot of it was generated

by, I suppose, the real estate market. People now want to enjoy a hobby.

They see that they're going to become a vigneron close to their home base

of Sydney, and given Sydney prices it's fairly inexpensive.

18

I really can't think of anything else. We've gone with the flow of Australian

technologies. At all the seminars and the major scientific events, people

are represented from here, so the latest presses and machinery all find

their way into the area.

So that's helped production in a way.

PR: Yes.

But they're tools, aren't they?

PR: Yes.

Have you found yourself, as a winemaker, far more in tune with the vineyards than you might've, say, thirty years ago?

PR: Oh, much more now, yes. When I first came here the winemaker was

god, and if you were given a choice of applying to do a course and you did

the wine science course, you didn't do the viticultural courses. It was

people like Croser who turned that around, and now viticulture is really the

whole crux of the industry. Our understanding of these special little bits of

soil we have that produce these special wines, only because of where they

are and what's happening within the vineyard, that's something now we

look to protect.

Do you think people like O’Shea had any inkling of that?

PR: I think he knew all the time. He was right on the nail. I think O’Shea

was a better viticulturist than he probably was a winemaker. (Laughs)

When he bought this place in 1921, he came here with his mother, and he

bought what he called the King Selections. The King family had planted

about 300 acres around this area, and he picked out certain blocks that he

wanted to buy, and of course it included what we call the old paddock—this

bit of dirt behind us here on the hill—which is extremely rich and produces

classic wines every year.

He did his training in France. He had a French mother and an Irish father,

but she sent him to school in France when he was still a teenager. He

19

would've worked in vineyards and understood the importance of it. So I

don't think he would've got great winemaking training there, but I think he

would've understood the feeling for the quality of what grapes are about.

And I think he got excellent palate training. That gave him the edge on his

competitors, because a few of the old guys used to talk about how he had

various vinegar casks where some of his wines didn't quite make it.

(Laughs) At other times the contents of a cask would disappear down the

creek. (Laughs) I think he would've struggled like so many, given the

constraints of the time. You know, without refrigeration. We had no

electricity here until he died. So he actually worked here without power.

So the restrictions of that would've been considerable.

Yes. Max Drayton was talking to me about that this morning, just

what a revolution it was in ‘55 to have electricity come.

PR: Yes.

And do away with your stationary engines or your click-clacks.

PR: Yes. And carting ice out from town.

Yes. Mind boggling really, isn't it, when you think about it?

PR: Yes. That's the beauty of this place. I’ve been lucky, only the third

winemaker here after Brian Walsh—Don used to say that O’Shea’s ghost’s

here. And I reckon he’s right. There's not something drifting around with

a cloak over him, but there's a spirit in the place, which gets back to the

work he did, the achievements he did. The same with Walsh when he

followed on, and the family who were always involved. They built the

winery out there using a petrol driven concrete mixer. You know, using six

by ones as formwork. Awesome! And they brought river pebbles from

Maitland, and just bags of concrete, and they built the bloody winery.

Phil, did you know all this sort of heritage before you came here?

PR: Oh, yes. We used to talk in Sydney. There was one moment in

Sydney—I’d been there a few years in the lab. The lab was a meeting

20

room. Bruce, in those days, was the Technical Director of the company, so

decisions were made in the taste room in the lab. The directors would

come down and look at some wine, or whatever. And I heard Ray Shipton

saying once, talking about wine, ‘You know the best job in this company?

Bloody Walsh-y has got it, being manager of Mount Pleasant’. That set the

light up for me. (Laughs) That's where I want to be.

Was Ray Shipton working for McWilliams then or for Leo Burings?

PR: McWilliams. He started just before me in ‘62. He retired in ‘88.

He's still around the place I suppose.

PR: Yes. He calls in now and then.

Yes, I’ve got to catch up with him one day. Phil, after you'd come here and the vintages begin and you learn

more about the place here, has there been an ongoing story that

you've seen developing where the quality’s improving all the time?

Or is it always a battle?

PR: It's always a battle. The last couple of weeks before vintage is pretty

absorbing here, watching the weather maps. But what we are achieving

now is much more consistent results with reds than we had in the past. In

the past, I think I’m going back thirty years or more, the decision would

always be made that if they look like they're nearly ripe, let's get them off

before it does rain. It wasn't the best decision to make. We didn't have

the understanding of spray programmes then.

We've got an excellent viticultural team here. Our viticultural manager,

Graham Doran, has been with us nearly twenty years now. He came from

Rosemount before that. He was trained in the Australian Navy, so he's a

great stickler for attention to detail. So it's getting those sprays on,

following the right regime of sprays, and we've been able basically to

defend ourselves with some pretty horrific vintages. The first week in 1990

we had fifteen inches of rain here, yet we made some trophy winning white

wines. The reds were lighter in structure but they were clean. They were

sound. We were able to sell them.

21

In more recent years now with reds, we can hold off picking them and get

them ripe, and use things like cold soaking and extended maceration.

We’re getting more structure and more weight in our reds, which has all

been positive.

From the one I tasted yesterday there's no doubt about you getting

it. (Laughter) Phil, also thinking that when you first came here, would you have

ever anticipated (a) the growth in table wine, and (b) the diversity

of your job as it is now?

PR: The diversity of the job. I used to sit and envy, and watch, Brian and

other guys in the wine industry. They seemed to me to have, as

winemakers, a varied and interesting job, and a freedom about it. You

know, they weren't constrained to a time span and a certain role. The job

always looked to me as though it was multi levels of involvement in all

sorts of issues, be it doing dinners or tours around the winery. I loved all

that. As it has developed, so I’ve enjoyed it all.

I think in the 70s it was nowhere near the involvement of winemakers in

the company in terms of their roles and their marketing levels and sales

level that is now there. To me, it's all evolutionary, and it just has to

happen. If you're selling a product, you're a salesman. Simple as that. If

you make it, you've still got to sell it. So that's the role I try to give our

winemakers here. You've just got to get involved in doing tastings. You've

got to get down to Sydney or to Brisbane or Melbourne and do the hard

yards with the sales force, because those guys need your help. You won't

have a job unless you can sell the stuff. So it's fun.

And the people you meet! It's just fascinating. You meet all levels of

society. You know, wealth areas as well as sport and politics. The people

we've had in here over the years are crazy. They just love it. And they all

come because wine to them is such enjoyment, and they're all happy.

Everyone’s happy. (Laughs) You never have anyone coming here grumpy.

In the early days at Chullora, I was living in Beacon Hill with our family and

I’d drive across from there, which the north side of Sydney, to Chullora. It

would take about an hour and a half. You had to be there before seven, so

22

you were leaving very early every morning. And you'd get in there and

they’d be steaming the filters. There was a guy who was a maintenance

engineer there, and often he'd come in and say, ‘Philip, we've got another

problem’. I thought, I don't want to get here at seven o’clock in the

morning and you've got a problem. (Laughs) That always seemed to be

the way. You know, they always seemed to have a problem. When you

got into the winemaking and viticulture, you never seemed to have

problems, you’d just have solutions.

It’s another side.

PR: Yes, another side of it, yes.

Did you anticipate that growth in table wine, too?

PR: Yes, I think it had to happen. I was at the age where all my friends

were new to wine, and you could see the way their consumption level was

going up. They were looking for more. They were going to various schools

to do wine knowledge programmes. They used to sit at dinner parties and

just talk you to death about wine. It was just all they wanted to talk about

at dinner parties. So you went along to a dinner party and you were there

all night working. (Laughs) It was fun. People wanted to know. You

could see that it was growing, growing all the time. So I was in an age

group where I was growing with it. I couldn't see it ever stopping. And the

same thing will happen in Asia. It may not in our lifetime but it's going to

happen. I see them out here regularly. We have a lot of tourists come

from Korea, China, the Philippines, Thailand etc.

Yes, I just saw them here when I came.

PR: Yes. And you can see them out there having lunch sometimes and

there will be someone there who knows enough about wine to be able to

tell the rest of the people at the table what's on the label. And they all sit

there and absorb everything he’s saying. So they're about 1970 in terms

of our terms.

23

Yes.

PR: And it will happen. No question. You know, wine is about enjoyment

of life. Understand it will never happen to people who have a religious

problem with wine, but those who don't have that problem, then they will

just grow to wine because it suits their lifestyle. It has to happen. Every

civilisation that wine has been introduced to has taken it on board.

(Laughs)

We won't talk about Rome at the moment. It may've been its downfall, but I don't think so.

PR: Yes.

Phil, so where do you see the future going?

PR: I think Asia is where we’ll see the next great growth, but I think

America yet is still tiny in terms of what it can achieve. I think we’re

getting to a point in the UK where we’ve reached, not a saturation point,

but we’ve reached a level where we’ve got to be serious about maintaining

how good we are there and, you know, hanging on to the runs we've made.

In America I think there's still possibly another 300% growth there for

Australia. So where we’re going now, I think we can treble that over the

next ten years. I think the American market is set to move quite quickly

into wine. They had all sorts of various hang-ups. You know, the anti

alcohol type problems of fifty or eighty years ago.

You saw that too, did you? That's one thing I couldn't believe. It's still hanging on there.

PR: Yes. It's just a generational change now. Their children aren't going

to put up with that when they can see the success that wine has been in

California and the east coast and west coast. And I think what Australia

has shown to the States in the last ex months, plus over the period of the

last 100 years or so, that Australia and America are set for a happy union

for many, many years to come. You know, for decades or centuries.

They’ll be seen as people to support.

24

And Phil, looking back over your years in the industry, and there

aren't that many on one hand—it's basically your lifetime in the career apart from Berger—are you satisfied that you went into it at

the beginning? Has it been a great thing for you?

PR: Oh, it has, yes. For myself and the family, it's been marvellous. It's

given me and my wife the opportunity to travel the world, and to meet

fantastic people. And there's just an enjoyment in working. It's fun to

come to work. The people here are wonderful. The whole company are full

of great people. The family is a sensational family to work for. They don't

question, as long as you're obviously pulling your weight. And your opinion

is always respected. You know, you're not told to stand in the corner and

wait until I send you a memo sort of thing. (Laughs) They value your

contribution. So it's been really good.

I started with the company when Don’s father was the General Manager,

and I remember the respect I had for him. He really did lift everybody up

to this level of all belonging to the company. Everyone felt that they were

part of McWilliams. It's been a long held remark, you know, being part of

the McWilliams family. That was something that we all share.

I can remember Don recounting to me only yesterday that when he came in his Dad said, ‘I’m sorry, you've got to start by learning

every job, and that includes bottle washing and everything’. A

family member, it didn't matter. You had to be there. So quite an

amazing group.

PR: Yes. Don’s uncle, who’s Doug McWilliams grandfather—old Doug, we

call him—if you saw him in a winery you'd swear he wouldn't have two bob

to his name. You know, torn, old, tatty pair of shorts, and he’d be

dragging a hose around. They were all just doers. I think they were all

brought up during fairly tough times. It's only been the later generations

that have actually enjoyed some of the results that the company’s been

able to achieve. Without those guys’ hard work it wouldn't have got to

where it is today.

25

Well, Phil, thank you so much for talking with me. It's been

fantastic to hear your story.

PR: I hope it made some sense.

It did, indeed. Thank you very much.