University of California Bancroft Library/Berkeley Regional Oral History Office

Sherwood & Katharine Grover

THE GRABHORN PRESS AND

THE GRACE HOPER PRESS

An Interview Conducted by

~ u t h Teiser

@ 1972 by The Regents of the University of California

All uses of this manuscript are covered by a legal agreement between the Regents of the University of California and Sherwood and Katharine Grover, dated 26 December 1972. The manuscript is thereby made available for research purposes. All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to The Bancroft Library of the University of California at Berkeley. No part of the manuscript may be quoted for publication without the written per- mission of the Director of The Bancroft Library of the University of California at Berkeley.

Requests for permission to quote for publication should be addressed to the Regional Oral History Office, 486 Library, and should include identification of the specific passages to be quoted, anticipated use of the passages, and identification of the user. The legal agree- ment with Sherwood and Katharine Grover requires that they be notified of the request and allowed thirty days in which to respond.

TABLE OF CONTENTS

Page

Two Careers i n Pr int ing Begin

The Grabhorn Press

Handsetting Books

E&in Grabhorn

Ad W g r a p h y and !Cypes

Sherwood Grover's F i r s t Years a s a Pr in te r

Tom Hewitt

Presses and Impression

The Grabhorn Press, Continued

Presswork and Composition

Notable Books

Wartime and Changes

Robert and Jane Grabhorn

The Roxburghe Club

The Grace Hoper Press

Hand Associates

Book Publishing i n California

Functions of a Publisher 's Representative

Division of Labor a t the Grace Hoper Press

FOREWORD

Books and P r i n t i n g i n t h e San F r a n c i s c o Bay Area

The a r t and b u s i n e s s o f p r i n t i n g i n t h e San F r a n c i s c o Bay

A r e a are s i g n i f i c a n t i n t h e h i s t o r y o f p r i n t i n g i n t h e Uni ted S t a t e s

and have been a n i n t e g r a l p a r t of t h e c u l t u r a l development o f

C a l i f o r n i a . T h i s series of i n t e r v i e w s w i t h p e o p l e who have been

p a r t i c i p a n t s i n and o b s e r v e r s o f t h e r e c e n t h i s t o r y o f San F r a n c i s c o

Bay Area p r i n t i n g stems from a 1958 i n t e r v i e w by F r a n c i s P. F a r q u h a r

w i t h Edward D e W i t t T a y l o r . I t h a s been c a r r i e d forward i n t h e

i n t e r e s t o f r e c o r d i n g d e t a i l s of t h e movement and a n a l y z i n g f a c t o r s

i n i t s development .

The Reg iona l O r a l H i s t o r y O f f i c e was e s t a b l i s h e d t o t a p e

r e c o r d a u t o b i o g r a p h i c a l i n t e r v i e w s w i t h p e r s o n s prominent i n r e c e n t

C a l i f o r n i a h i s t o r y . The O f f i c e i s under t h e d i r e c t i o n o f W i l l a K.

Baum, and u n d e r t h e a d m i n i s t r a t i o n o f t h e D i r e c t o r o f The B a n c r o f t

L i b r a r y . Ruth T e i s e r i s p r o j e c t d i r e c t o r f o r t h e books and

p r i n t i n g series.

- --- -- BOOKS AND PRINTING I N THE SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA

I n t e r v i e w s Completed by November 1982

Doro thy & Lewis A l l e n , Book P r i n t i n g w i t h t h e Randpress 1 9 6 8 (68 p p . )

B r o t h e r A n t o n i n u s , B r o t h e r A n t o n i n u s : P o e t , P r i n t e r , and R e l i g i o u s 1966 ( 9 7 p p . )

Mallette Dean, A r t i s t and P r i n t e r 1970 (112 p p . )

Edwin Grabhorn , R e c o Z Z e c t i o n s o f t h e Grabhorn P r e s s 1968 (114 p p . )

J a n e Grabhorn , The C o l t P r e s s 1966 ( 4 3 p p . )

R o b e r t Grabhorn , Fine P r i n t i n g and t h e Grabhorn P r e s s 1968 (129 p p . )

Sherwood & K a t h a r i n e Grover, The Grabhorn P r e s s and t h e Grace Hoper P r e s s 1972 (94 p p . )

m e Hand Bookbinding Tradition i n the San Francisco Bay Area. I n t e r v i e w s w i t h Leah Wollenberg, S t e l l a P a t r i , Duncan Olmsted, S tephen Gale H e r r i c k , and Barbara F a l l o n Hil ler , 1982 (194 pp.)

Car ro l l T. Harris , C o n v e r s a t i o n s on Type and P r i n t i n g , 1967 1976 (209 p p . )

James D. Hart, Fine P r i n t e r s o f t h e San F r a n c i s c o Bay Area 1969 ( 9 5 p p . )

Quail Hawkins, The A r t o f BookseZZing: Q u a i 2 Rawkins and t h e S a t h e r Gate Book Shop 1 9 7 9 . - ( 1 5 5 p p . )

Warren R. Howel l , Two San F r a n c i s c o Bookmen 1967 ( 7 3 p p . )

Haywood Hunt , R e c o Z Z e c t i o n s o f San F r a n c i s c o P r i n t e r s 1967 (53 p p . )

Lawton Kennedy, A L i f e i n P r i n t i n g 1968 ( 2 1 1 p p . )

Oscar Lewis , L i t e r a r y San F r a n c i s c o 1 9 6 5 ( 1 5 1 p p . )

David Magee, BookseZZing and C r e a t i n g Books 1969 (92 p p . )

Walter Mann, P h o t o e n g r a v i n g , 1910-1969 1 9 7 3 (90 p p . ) -

B e r n h a r d S c h m i d t , Herman D i e d r i c h s , Max S c h m i d t , Jr. The Schmidt L i t h o g r a p h Company, VoZume 1 1968 (238 p p . )

Lorenz Schmid t , E r n e s t Wuthmann, S t e w a r t Norr is , The Schmid t L i t h o g r a p h Company, VoZume 11 1969 (157 p p . )

A l b e r t S p e r i s e n , San F r a n c i s c o P r i n t e r s , 1925-1965 1966 ( 9 1 p p . )

J a c k W. S t a u f f a c h e r , A P r i n t e d Word Has I t s O m Measure 1969 (107 p p . )

Edward D e W i t t T a y l o r , Supp lemen t t o F r a n c i s P . Farquhar i n t e r v i e w 1960 ( 4 5 p p . )

A d r i a n W i l s o n , P r i n t i n g and Book Des ign ing 1966 ( 1 0 8 p p . )

INTRODUCTION

Sherwood and Kathar ine Grover have been dedica ted t o t h e a r t and

c r a f t of p r i n t i n g s i n c e t h e i r h igh school days i n Oakland, C a l i f o r n i a ,

when they met i n t he school p r i n t shop and began sha r ing l i t e r a r y as w e l l

as p r i n t i n g i n t e r e s t s . Sherwood Grover (known t o f r i e n d s and acqua in tances

as B i l l ) was born October 13, 1910, i n Oakland, and grew up i n t h a t com-

munity. Kathar ine Car ru th Grover (known as Tr ina) was born i n Lawrence,

Kansas, December 1, 1911, t he daughter of a p ro fe s so r of Engl i sh who

brought h i s fami ly t o S tanford Un ive r s i t y when she was "two o r so." Fol-

lowing h i s dea th i n 1924, she and h e r mother moved t o Berkeley. By t h e

time she marr ied B i l l Grover, du r ing t h e Depression yea r s , she had a t tended

co l l ege and he had gone t o work i n a n Oakland p r i n t shop.

Much of t h i s i n t e rv i ew concerns t he yea r s dur ing which they both

worked a t t h e Grabhorn P r e s s i n San Franc isco . As they r e c a l l e d , T r ina

went t h e r e f i r s t , i n 1934, and worked r e g u l a r l y , w i t h t h e except ion of

one yea r , u n t i l 1942, then occas iona l ly t h e r e a f t e r . B i l l went t o work a t

t he Grabhorn P re s s about 1935 and continued s t e a d i l y u n t i l 1962 w i t h t he

except ion of t h r e e yea r s du r ing World War 11. Both were sympathet ic and

d i s c e r n i n g observers of ( a s w e l l . a s p a r t i c i p a n t s i n ) t h e workings of t h i s

famous p r e s s .

The Grovers s t a r t e d p r i n t i n g f o r p l ea su re a f t e r hours and on weekends

a t t h e Grabhorn P r e s s , as they recount i n t h i s in te rv iew. They have con-

t inued producing a l imi t ed number of books i n t h e i r awn p r e s s a t t h e i r

home i n Aptos, t h e Grace Hoper P res s . Most a r e f o r small publ i shers of

s p e c i a l e d i t i o n s . They have a l s o continued t o produce f o r p.leasure pam-

p h l e t s and o the r small p r in t ed works. Since 1962, Sherwood Grover has

been a pa r tne r i n a f i rm of book d i s t r i b u t o r s , Hand Associa tes .

The in terv iew was held i n two ses s ions , morning and af te rnoon, on

November 13, 1970, i n the ~ r o v e r s ' comfortable book-f i l led home high on a n

Aptos c l i f f overlooking the P a c i f i c Ocean.

Ruth Teiser Interviewer

5 December 1972 Regional Ora l His tory Of f i ce Room 486, The Bancroft L ib ra ry Univers i ty of C a l i f o r n i a a t Berkeley

Morning session - Nov. U, 1970

TWO CAREERS IN PRIN'JXNG BEGIN

Teiser : You sa id tha t your in te res t in print ing was . . . KG: Oh, I think t h a t B i l l ' s and mine came about pre t ty much simul-

taneously. In f ac t , we met i n the p r in t shop of the high

school paper.

Tesier: Where was t h i s ?

KG: I was an editor of the paper and B i l l was a sport edi tor .

That was University High School in Oakland, which doesn't

ex i s t any more. It was a practice teaching place for Cal

teachers.

SG: It's now Merritt College, I think.

KG: Anyway, a l l the edi tors l iked t o take printing because then

they could run down and make corrections, and the i r papers

were graded, you see, and you could s l i p i n these Linotype

corrections. Anyway, tha t ' s where I met Sherwood Grover.

SG: We both were Linotype operators.

KG: We used t o write poems t o each other on the Linotype. [~augh te r ]

SG: I think verse would be more accurate.

Te i se r : But nobody had ever interested e i ther of you in printing be-

fore then?

KG: No. I wanted t o be a, journal is t , 'ti1 I couldn't get a job.

Teiser : Let me ask fo r some v i t a l s t a t i s t i c s . What was your maiden

name?

KG: Katharine Carruth.

Teiser : And were you born i n Palo Alto?

* KG: NO, I was born in Lawrence, Kansas, where my father taught

a t t h a t time. And he came out t o Stanford when I was two o r

SO.

Te i s e r : And so you grew up a t Stanford?

KG: Yes. A lovely place t o grow up.

Teiser : It must have been. And then you moved t o the East Bay?

KG: Oh. Well, a f t e r my father died, my mother went up t o Berkeley

t o work i n pottery; she was studying glazes. So a l l of a sud-

den there I was transplanted t o Berkeley, where I had hardly

ever been i n my l i f e .

Teiser: What year was it t h a t your fa ther died?

KG: He died i n 1924. And somehow o r other, an aunt of mine took

charge of me and said , 'how you must go t o University High

School ." There were only about 700 people i n it, and she

thought it was a good thing. It was a nice school. And so I

went down there not knowing a soul and got going on the paper,

and met B i l l .

Then a f t e r high school and a f t e r two and a half o r so

years of college, we got married, and I l ived with h i s family

)(William Herbert Carruth.

KG: up i n Oakland. Then t h e Depression--I didn' t know t h a t the

Depression exis ted u n t i l I decided I must go out and get a

job. You know, i n a college community you just don't rea l ize

t h a t such things a s t he stock market ex i s t . B i l l had gotten a

job i n a p r in t shop, and they had asked him t o apprentice--in

Oakland, t ha t was. And I thought, 'well, I'll be a pr in te r

too ." And I went around, a f t e r I had exhausted all the news-

paper acquaintances I had and had been turned down cold, I

went around t o several p r in t shops. And Ben Kennedy, who was

the brother of Lawton--you may know him--they were all operat-

ing i n d i f fe ren t shops.

Teiser : All the Kennedy boys?

KG: Yes. Well, several of them. Reuel, and Ben, and Alfred.

Alfred was i n Goodhue's, where B i l l worked. That's how we got

t o know him. That's the uncle of young Alfred .* Anyway, Ben

sent me over t o the Grabhorns', you see. He mentioned them

and said what wonderful . . .

x-The elder Alfred was Alfred Brooks Kennedy; t he younger i s

Alfred Leonard Kennedy.

THE GRABIORN PRESS

KG: I had heard of them from Bi l l , who knew about them, and I went

over in fear and trembling, because Ben said, 'you know, the re

are a l l so r t s of s to r i e s going around a b u t those Grabhorns.

They have a couch i n t h e i r office." And so I thowht , "oh boy,

oh boy! " [~augh te r1 And a f t e r going two o r three times over a

period of a year or so, I f i n a l l y went back one day a f t e r I

real ized tha t they were not going t o c a l l me as they said they

would i f they needed somebody. I went back one day and they

had jus t gotten out a book and they needed somebody t o wrap

books, and I was hired. And I l i e d a l i t t l e b i t about how much

I knew about typeset t ing and dis t r ibut ing. And then very short ly

a f t e r t h a t they asked B i l l t o come t o work f o r them. B i l l had

come over t o see the shop. So tha t was what s t a r t ed it. I

think I went there i n '34 and B i l l came i n '35, o r something

l i k e t ha t .

Teiser: Had you actual ly had any experience in typesett ing beyond high

school?

KG: Very, very l i t t l e . That high school paper was a daily, but I

had mostly t o do with Linotyping, and I was a t a l o s s when it

came t o the heads, and tha t 's a l l the type they [the high

KG: school] had, the headline type. So I was stretching it quite

a b i t when I to ld them I had experience. But Bob taught me;

he was a marvelous teacher.

SG: He i s tha t .

KG: Very meticulous about spacing and everything.

Teiser: Was he patient?

KG: Oh, yes, he's wonderful. He would be a marvelous teacher.

SG: He cer tainly would.

KG: And he's so sweet and such fun. It was a very pleasant time

tha t we spent there.

SG: I would say so.

Te i se r : What was Ed l i k e t o get on with?

KG: Well, I was very fond of Ed. Of course, he's such an en t i re ly

different person from Bob, I discovered i n a few years. And

then Jane, of course, was her own se l f and nothing e lse .

Teiser : What were your f i r s t impressions of them a l l ? Do you remember?

KG: Yes. I thought Ed was quite a t t rac t ive , and Bob was too. And

a f t e r these stories--not s tor ies exactly, but these implica-

t ions or these inferences I had drawn from what Ben Kennedy

to ld me--I had gathered tha t the Grabhorn boys were r e a l rou8s.

I met Jane, who had just s tar ted working there when I came in ,

and I thought, 11Oh, tha t poor woman. 1) You know, the wife of

t h i s rounder. [~aughter1 Well, it happened tha t she just had

KG: a bad hangover. She looked qui te dark-eyed tha t day. Well, I

think B i l l can give you bet ter impressions than I can.

SG: I can't give them your impressions.

KG: Ed never bothered me, got under my skin, t he way he did many

other people's skin, I guess, because I was i n no sense i n com-

pet i t ion, and I always did exactly what he said--the great

man, you know--and did my best t o please him, and I think he

l iked me actually. I n fact , when I did leave there, he was so

nice as t o . . . I was t e r r i b l y bored. It was the w a r , and

B i l l w a s away i n the South Pacific, and the f ine book business

was i n the doldrums r ight then, and he knew I was bored, and he

said, ''Katharine, are you happy here? If you want t o stop, you

can stop, you know, any time." And I said, "okay, f ine; done. I t

Because I just needed tha t l i t t l e push t o make up my mind for

me. And then I was sor t of depressed about it, and I got to

brooding, and I thought, "Gee, I 've been given the sack." But

a couple of days l a t e r he said, 'how, I want you t o know tha t

p u ' r e not being f i red . You don't have t o stop. I just think

you maybe aren't happy any more. n Now tha t takes a cer tain

amount of sens i t iv i ty fo r him t o have thought of tha t .

Teiser: I know from Jane Grabhorn herself tha t you were closely involved

i n the Colt Press.

KG: Oh, I was i n t h a t for about six months or a year a f t e r they

KG: first s ta r ted . They jus t needed somebody t o answer the t e l e -

phone and wri te t h e checks and do the typing. And I guess

t h a t ' s about a l l I had t o do with it. I had stopped working

a t Grabhorns', and she cal led me and asked me if I ' d l i k e t o

come back. This was short ly a f i e r I had stopped, wasn't i t ?

SG: Yes. That's when you stopped t o wri te a novel.

KG: And a t t h a t point I needed money badly, and I was t i r e d of not

working, so I snapped it up. But i n those ea r ly stages it was

not too sat isfactory. I wanted t o get out. Well, it was B i l l

Roth on the one hand (and Jane Swinerton was i n i t ) and Jane

Grabhorn on the other.

SG: Strong personal i t ies .

KG: Yes. ~ n dI jus t f e l t as though I was ge t t ing caught between

them, and I wanted out. So I qu i t . And I forget whether I

went back t o the Grabhorns o r no t j u s t then.

SG: Not then, but you went back t o the Grabhorns when they asked you.

Specifically they asked Trina t o come back f o r t h e first bibliog-

* raphy; they needed somebody t o s e t the type.

KG: That's r i gh t . I qui t f o r a year during t h a t seven years. I

stayed out a year and wrote a book, which never got beyond my

mother. I gave it t o her t o read and she . . . [ ~ a u g h t e r ]

* Heller, Elinor and Magee, David. Bibliography of the Grabhorn

Press, 1915-1940. San Francisco : a avid Magee1, 1940.

--

Teiser: Turned out t o be your worst c r i t i c ?

KG: Well, i t 's one of t he few times t h a t she's ever come as close

a s she could t o saying, %n't do it !"

SG: Well, she came so close t ha t she did. If ItKG: Yes, she did. She said , You m u s t not sen d it. * It was jus t

simply t h a t her feel ing about it w a s t h a t it was too c lear ly

autobiographical. And as a matter of f a c t , it was t e r r i b l e .

SG: No, it was not.

KG: But I finished it. That's one of the few things i n my l i f e I

ever f inished, which I keep reminding myself.

Teiser : Maybe i t ' s one of those things t h a t should be put somewhere t o

be opened i n a hundred years.

SG: Well, my regret i s tha t she destroyed it.

Tesier : You actual ly destroyed it?

KG: Yes, it was awful.

SG: No, it was not; it r e a l l y was not. I think her mother did her

r e a l l y a disservice t o have said, 'bon't submit it. If

KG: Well anyway, it would have been be t te r fo r me t o submit it and

get turned down than t o just stop i n my tracks.

Teiser : Have you ever thought of writ ing it again i n a d i f fe ren t way?

KG: Yes, I 've thought of it, but I guess it did give me a cer ta in

block about writ ing. I have a hard time even writ ing l e t t e r s

now.

SG: But she wri tes very well.

* To a publisher.

KG: Well, in any case, I forgot about that i n time. It was after

that, about a year or so, that they asked me t o come back and

work on the bibliography, and I at that point was delighted t o

come back and earn some money.

HANDSETTING BOOKS

Teiser : So you se t the f i r s t bibliography?

Y SG: And the second.

KG: Yes, both of them.

SG: She l e f t and then came back again.

KG: I did a l l the long typesetting chores.

Teiser: During the ea r l i e r years, the years you were there f u l l time,

you said you had s e t t he i r Two Years Before the Mast?

KG: Yes.

SG: And Wah-To-Y ah.

KG: Everything. I was the typesetter.

Teiser: Wah-To-Yah has recently been re-issued.

SG: Yes, I n fac t , the Grabhorns did it i n '35, say, and then the

University of Oklahoma reprinted it about f ive o r ten years

l a t e r , and then George Pfeiffer a.t American West.

KG: Now tha t was a book tha t was r ea l ly good reading--interesting,

fun t o s e t ,

SG: I consider it one of the i r ten t o twelve best books, just as a

product.

* Magee, Dorothy and David, Bibliomaphy of the Grabhorn Press,

1940-1956. San Francisco : avid Mage e 1, 1957.

KG: It was written by a sixteen-year-old boy. It 's h i s journal going

West.

SG: Yes, i t ' s one of the few Westerniana tha t reads well. It rea l ly

i s surprising. It 's comparable, I think, t o Two Years Before

the Mast.

KG: And be t te r than ltro Years Before the Mast.

SG: Well, t ha t ' s a different . . . KG: I did get the feeling tha t he was t e r r ib ly , t e r r i b l y wordy in

Two Years, and he was, he is.

6G: Yes.

Teiser: You hand-set Two Years Before the Mast?

KG: Let ter by l e t t e r .

Teiser : My ~ o r d !

KG: It gets t o be l i k e knitt ing, and you pass the time by . . . except when it 's rea l ly good, and Two Years I enjoyed, except

I got awfully exasperated with h i s windiness. But there 's

awfully good s tuff in it, and so was there i n Wah-To-Yah,

and qui te a few others they did.

SG: 11 atm man" you se t . *

KG: The Oatman G i r l s .

SG: And you s e t hoeni nix."

KG: Oh, the ?Phoenixn; now tha t was, fun, l o t s of fun.

* Life Among the Indians or the Captivity of the Oatman G i r l s . . .

SG: The Squibob papers.

Teiser: Oh yes. Was t h e i r t i t l e Phoenixiana?

SG: Yes.

KG: That was very pleasant; we had a l o t of fun with t ha t .

SG: And the Je f fe rs , h i s Solstice, you se t t h a t .

KG: Robinson Jef f e r s . *

Teiser : Would you mind i f Catherine shot a few pictures while we t a l k

here, since the l i g h t ' s p re t ty good?

KG: Well, okay.

SG: You could say every book of any length between t h e period o f ,

say, '34 t o '41, Wina s e t . There was a period when she was

gone, but it would pre t ty much stand up i n court .

KG: And then, see, B i l l and I became very good fr iends with Bob

and Jane. We did everything together. And tha t was the d i f -

ference between our re la t ionship with Ed--of course he and M a r -

j o r i e didn' t move i n t h e same c i r c l e s t h a t we did.

SG: O r t he same direct ion e i t he r . [ ~ a u g h t e r ]

KG: Those were the drinking days. And, gee, there ' s nobody l i k e Bob

and Jane. They're two of the most wonderful people. We still.

see them qu i t e regularly.

SG: Well, t he remarkable th ing about Bob and Jane i s t h a t they both

have an approach as f a r as pr int ing i s concerned t h a t no matter

who you are it 's what you've done tha t matters. I don't think

Bob has any pet t iness i n him a t a l l , and t h a t ' s qu i te remarkable.

* Catherine Harroun

SG: And Ed did.

KG: He can take the worst, most scathing cr i t ic ism, and ei ther

accept it or dish it back, i f it ca l l s for being dished back.

He and Ed used t o c r i t i c i z e each other i n a way tha t no two

other people could; they accepted it. Of course being brothers

there was no resentment there, i f there was any jus t i f ica t ion

fo r the crit icism.

SG: A s far a s Bob was concerned, he never would carry any resent-

ment, and Ed was not one t o . . . he might l i s t e n t o you, but

he usually would say, 'yeah, wel l what do you know about it?"

Then he might make a change because of it.

KG: Yes, he resented cr i t ic ism, except from Bob.

SG: Well, I think over the long view t h a t proved ou t t h a t he didn ' t

l i k e it from Bob e i t he r .

KG: He didn ' t l i k e it from anybody, but he might pay a l i t t l e a t -

t en t ion t o what Bob said .

SG: Ed once made a statement I think is about as revealing as there

is . You know who Mary Grabhorn i s?

Teiser : H i s daughter.

SG: Yes. And he said--you know h i s grammar sometimes lapsed--"I

don't care about nobody but Mary and me, and Mary don't care

about nobody but Mary. I 1 And he every once i n a while would

come out with these r a r e burs ts of candor. And t h a t r e a l l y sums

him up t o qu i te an extent.

KG: If you can sum him up.-SG: Yes, t h a t ' s t r ue ; he def ies description.

KG: He was p r e t t y unique too.

SG: He was. But so many people couldn't understand the fac t that--

I don't know whether you'd say he was jus t so engrossed i n what

he was and what he was doing. Has the name Gus Pollock ever

come up?

Teiser: No.

SG: Well, Gus was an a r t connoisseur; he 's t he man who discovered a

Mary Cassatt i n Butterfield 's basement and bought it before they

found out what it was. A t any r a t e , he used t o visit t he shop

because you know Ed's penchant for paintings and the l i k e , and

over t he years Gus and Ed did a l o t of buying and se l l ing . Mostly

Gus was buying f'rom Ed, and then a f te r G u s had gone out Ed would

I1 say, God damn, why did I s e l l t h a t t o him?" And t h e reason he

did it was of%en because he'd wave not a check but money i n f'ront

of him, and Ed always f e l t t h a t he needed money. A t any r a t e ,

Gus once said, "I l i k e Ed and I think Ed l i k e s me."

And Jane said , 11GUS, why don't you walk out on Sutter Street and

l e t the wind blow through those holes i n your head." [~augh te r]

The idea was tha t r e a l l y Ed was a universe t o himself.

KG: He l iked nobody. It was years before I discovered, I real ized,

it was jus t borne i n on me, t h a t a f t e r hearing anybody t h a t

ever came in to the shop leave it and hear Ed start t o t a l k about

them, I thought, '%7ell, I guess he does it about me, too. 'I

SG: And nobody real ized t h a t . You know Ted Li l ien tha l , o r whoever,

would l i s t e n t o Ed's 'you know what t h a t guy did t o me? I'll

SG: t e l l you what t h a t guy did t o me." But you see Ted would go out

t h e door and he'd say, "Here's what Ted's been doing." Jus t who-

ever it was. And a s Trina says, t h a t revelat ion t h a t suddenly

comes t o you, ' b ~ yshould I be the only person i n San Francisco

t h a t he's not t a lk ing about?" And tha t ' s what Jane meant [when

she said t h a t 1 t o Gus.

Teiser : I 've heard t h i s sa id by others. I n h i s interview, Ed Grabhorn

made statements about a number of people t h a t were s l ight ing,

i f not exactly malicious, and I did not think it was r igh t f o r

pos te r i ty t o believe t h a t they were jus t because he had had a

stroke by then and had become embittered. So I wanted it on

the record i f t h i s was h i s point of view always.

SG: Well, I think t h a t some people w i l l go t o t h e i r graves saying

t h a t Ed was a h e l l of a sweet guy, and these were some of the

people t h a t Ed put t h e hammer t o t he minute they walked out the

door. But some of them--now George Harding, have you spoken t o

George?

Tesier: Not about t h i s , no.

SG: Well, you know him.

Teiser: Yes.

SG: Now, he and Ed had a long association, and the only reason it

wasn't stormy was t h a t George just had too much brains. H i s

eye was on the main chance; they horsetraded all the years t h a t

I knew them. George was well aware of what Ed was saying be-

cause--that's one of t he things t h a t Bob t r i e d t o get through

t o Ed--these things tha t you say usually get back t o the other

person because people just love t o gossip. That's a l l there i s

t o it. But I hope tha t some time you get t o t a l k t o George

Harding, because although he probably wouldn't allow it t o be

released i n h i s l i fe t ime perhaps, he knew Ed fo r what he was--

t ha t is, he was a very gif ted, talented man, but on the other

hand he was also a very human person with a l o t of f au l t s .

KG: A child i n so many ways. And a s he got older and sicker, some

of tha t paranoia came out more than it used t o i n the early

days.

Teiser : You speak as i f he became ill rather gradually.

KG: He did.

Teiser : Beginning about when?

KG: B i l l knows those dates; t ha t was a r t e r I l e f t , I think. He had

a slight--did they c a l l it a stroke?

SG: Oh h e l l , he had a stroke, you know, i n the f i r t i e s , and D r .

Bloomfield a t Stanford Hospital more o r l e s s took care of it.

You see, Ed was in the hospi tal for 11X 11 weeks, then he was home

for some months, and Marjorie f i r s t just brought him down t o

the shop t o give a convalescent an outing, and I took one look

a t him and pronounced him dead within s ix weeks. And s i x months

l a t e r he was running up Sutter Street, and I mean running.

KG: Physically he recovered quickly.

SG: He had one eye way over here, and he had an old man's voice,

and he was stooped way over, and he'd l o s t something l i k e 40

SG: pounds, and I just thought, "This i s the end."

Teiser : This was i n the mid-fifties?

SG: Yes.

Teiser : I see. I think maybe it was dated by Mallette Dean, i n connec-

t ion with some printing being off-regis ter . Was it during the

pr int ing of one of the Japanese pr in t books?

SG: Well, I think it was probably before tha t a l i t t l e b i t , I don't

know. I ' m reasonably certain it would be about '54, something

l i k e tha t .

Teiser : And tha t was the f i r s t ?

SG: Yes. And he, a s much as a man can, recovered t o t a l l y as f a r

as I could see, because h i s eye came back, h i s voice came back,

and as I say, he l i t e r a l l y ran up Sutter Street because he saw

Lorenz Noll, who was a scout, and we'd been out t o lunch, and

he was afraid tha t the scout would get away before he got t o

see what the scout had. Now you've heard about the scouts, I 'm

sure.

Teiser : Ed Grabhorn himself spoke a l i t t l e about them.

SG: Yes. He had a t l e a s t f ive, but the most f m u s ones would be

Jack Cashmaker . . . Teiser: He spoke about him.

SG: [ ~ a u ~ h t e rOld Cash. 1

KG: Lorenz No11 was known as Three-fingered Jack.

SG: Yeah, tha t was Three-fingered Jack. And then Albert Dressler,

the millionaire tramp, and then Joe Rainey.

Teiser : Who was Rainey?

KG: One of the l a t e r ones.

SG: He was a schlumper, but he would come up with something; he

brought i n a l e t t e rp re s s once.

KG: Always carrying a pic ture .

SG: He brought a watch i n ; you know he would bring anything from a

Dord Bible t o somebody's grandfather 's watch ; and he had t h i s

s i l v e r watch o r whatever it was. 'kd, I 've got t o have two

dol la rs for it o r I'll smash it:" So Ed gave him two dol la rs .

KG: Cashmaker used t o bring i n , i n the ear ly days,the cartons t h a t

he got i n some o ld woman's basement who had just died--he used

t o ge t there f a s t . He'd read the ob i t s .

SG: He 'd watch the ob i t s .

KG: And the cartons would be f u l l of o ld junk jewelry, crayons,

old combs and brushes, pencils . . . SG: Letters . . . KG: Anything.

SG: He also would go around t o t h e various county of f ices and buy

gold teeth . You know, many times the coroner would pu l l the

bridges out of the mouth, and then Cash would say, '%d, can I

borrow a hammer?" And he would s i t on the pavement and beat

the porcelain away from the gold, and then go out--because t h a t

w a s one of h i s t rades , buying and se l l i ng gold.

KG: And you see, they more o r l e s s depended on Ed. They were a l l

on the ragged edge, most of them, most of the time, and they

KG: knew tha t he would be a steady customer. That's why he bought

most of those things.

SG: Well, Ed would buy junk simply t o keep them coming.

KG: Then every so often he would get a gem, you see.

SG: They would come up with a f i r s t edition of a Tom Sawyer, or a

Currier and Ives, things l i k e tha t .

Teiser : When Ed Grabhorn was giving h i s interview, he mentioned a group

* of l e t t e r s from a man named Knight t o Hubert Howe Bancroft, and

in one Knight urged Bancroft t o establish a l ibrary. And Ed had

got them from a son of Knight's--Emerson, was tha t h i s name?

SG: There was an Emerson Knight. He used t o come t o the shop. I

think Emerson Knight was a landscape archi tect .

Teiser : Well, Ed Grabhorn said tha t they should go t o the Bancroft

Library, and so people have been looking fo r them ever since.

KG: I don't remember hearing any t a l k about the l e t t e r s .

SG: No.

KG: Although Emerson came i n regularly, and he and Ed talked, but

I don't know what about.

SG: He was something of a publisher-collector, but he was a very

cautious man, and I ' m sure he wouldn't l e t those l e t t e r s go

without, you know, some value.

Teiser : Well, Ed always had ready money t o pay the scouts, didn't he?

SG: Well, he always had a check. So, many times he'd say, " ~ e s u s ,

Bob, are we overdrawn?" Because he r ea l ly would write a check

* William H. Knight

SG: no matter what, i f he thought t ha t t h i s was . . . You see, many

times he would give the guy two do l l a r s jus t t o keep him coming

fo r something, as Wina says, a boxful of o ld hairbrushes. And

t h i s is not jus t picked out of imagination; the old [~rabhorn

Press] basement did have such things a s combs and brushes. It

was the damnedest col lect ion. You know the Huntington Library

once, I think, gave him on the order of s i x o r seven thousand

dol la rs and jus t hauled everything out of the basement. And

then l a t e r on it was the same a s it ever was, and there were

good things and bad things. .

Teiser: You mean he just sold them the contents of the basement?

SG: Yes.

KG: It was done several times.

SG: Robert Shad, who was the ass is tant curator a t Huntington, came

up, and some of t he obvious just junk he passed by, but there

were a l o t of very, very good things, because people l i k e Cash-

maker would . . . You know there are a l o t of o ld California

families t h a t somehow, when they d ie , people didn' t rea l ize ,

' b e l l , now, t h i s could be something of an archive. " So he did

pick up l o t s of in te res t ing and sometimes very valuable pieces

of Westerniana t h a t way.

Teiser: He had a very discerning eye actual ly , did he not?

SG: He had a discerning eye, and he had a profound knowledge.

That was one of the things tha.t Ed had, t h i s t e r r i f i c memory,

so t h a t when he collected Americana he remembered, so t h a t he

SG: would know t h a t the Graves Company of whatever year was t h e one,

o r which Tom Sawyer was the first. ( ~ ealso collected first

edi t ions) . He knew about p r in t s , about t o qu i te an extent first

edi t ions , and t o a great extent Western Americana. Over the

years he was se l l i ng Western Americana t o Thomas Streeter , you

know, and Everett Graff, of these people. Every time

Streeter came t o town, o r R . I Wagner, they would come up[ ~ e n r ~

and say, 'well , what have you got, ~ d ? " Then they were ta lk ing

about important money, because Streeter , as you know, was a r i ch

man, and i f t he thing f i t t e d i n with h i s f i e l d he was not one t o

haggle, which some of the other people would t r y , t o beat him

darn.

Teiser: Then t h e pr int ing and publishing of so much Western Americana--

which came first, the pr int ing o r the col lect ing?

SG: Basically, the col lect ing. Now you see I ' m more o r l e s s de-

pending on hearsay for before 1932, thereabouts, but i n the

'20's, the Grabhorns along with every other f i ne pr in te r ,

whether i t ' s i n quotes o r not, was basical ly repr int ing the

chestnuts--you know, the c lass ics and so on. But then a t the

Depression time, even though there had been some in t e re s t i n

California h i s tory , I think it was pre t ty much a bread-and-

bu t te r matter as f a r a s the Grabhorns were concerned. He

turned t o h i s col lect ion i n order t o publish a book t h a t would

s e l l and t h a t you had reasonable expectancy of se l l ing .

Teiser: So they were not bought with the anticipation of using them

f o r publishing materials?

SG: No, not a t first. My understanding i s t h a t he s ta r ted out col-

l ec t ing f i r s t edi t ions . I n f a c t , he sometimes ra ther jokingly

said t h a t he picked [~oseph] Hergesheimer a s one of the men

who would l i v e , and he had a marvelous col lect ion of Joseph

Hergesheimer. And I don't know i f very many people can even

remember him. And of course i n 1929 you were paying some fan-

t a s t i c pr ices f o r him, and i n 1930 you r e a l l y couldn't give

away a Hergesheimer, whether it was a first o r a f i f t een th ,

assuming there was such a thing. But he collected tha t and

got t i r e d of it and a t the same time i n the '20's he began t o

taper off on the first edi t ion type and he became interested

i n the Californiana, Westerniana; so t ha t he collected before

he even thought of publishing.

Let 's see, the books t h a t he was doing (and notice I say

-he was doing; I mean they were doing) were more t h e Aesop's

Fables, the Leaves of Grass--these were the books i n the '20's.

They r e a l l y didn' t start in to the Westerniana u n t i l the Depres-

sion, a t l e a s t t h a t ' s my r e c a l l .

KG: Well, your r e c a l l is good.

Teiser: You probably remember from se t t i ng the bibliography. But one

thing t h a t keeps coming up is how did they make any money when

they didn 't keep accounts?

KG: Oh, Ed married a r i c h woman, f o r one thing.

Teiser: Yes.

SG: Ed did not have t o pay rent a t home, nor did he buy the groceries.

The shop was more o r l e s s paying the note tha t old D r . Robertson

had signed f o r him, you know, t o buy the Commercial Street build-

ing. You know t h a t was the one time they f i n a l l y lit.

Teiser : D r . Robertson was Marjorie's fa ther?

* SG: Yes. Who was a p re t ty well-heeled gent.

KG: He had all s o r t s of s idel ines . You know he ran tha t Livermore

Sanitarium. He owned t h a t , and t h a t was a gold mine.

SG: And he had a couple of apartment houses.

KG: Ranches, t ha t ra ised beef.

SG: And a r e a l block of Bank of America stock. A t any ra te , Ed

did not have a worry as f a r as h i s own household was concerned,

and t h a t made a difference. But sti l l , the shop operated i n

the black, and one of the reasons i s tha t they did a l o t of ad

work. When they were on Commercial Street , they did a.11 of

the American Trust ads fo r the Leon Livingston agency.

KG: And ea r l i e r they had Standard O i l .

SG: But by the time I came there, we were s t i l l doing American

Trust ads. But the books were profitable. I don't know how

profi table they were, but a t 1ea.st they were being done and SWt

beginning t o be more and more the basic income.

* D r . John W . Robertson

-x-K Once about 1938 Bob said: " ~ e s u s , we used t o do ads so we

could pr in t books." S.G.

KG: Nobody could have straightened those [accounting] books out , you

see, because t h e shop account was Ed's personal checking account.

SG: Yes. I f he wanted t o buy a Japanese p r in t , he wrote a check

from t h e shop.

KG: Although t o some extent it was Bob's, too.

SG: No. Bob had a drawing account only.

KG: Well, he drew on the shop when he needed to .

SG: Yes, an advance. But they never knew u n t i l the end of the month

when the statements came in--"~esus, Bob, we ' re a thousand dol-

l a r s overdrawn!" And then they'd run around wringing t h e i r

hands, ' h a t q l l we do, what ' l l we do?" Well, par t of t h a t was

just a smokescreen, a s I found out l a t e r , because old D r . Robert-

son had more o r l e s s gone--what do you say?--on the w a l l f o r him,

so t h a t up t o f i ve thousand dol la rs he would make good for .

KG: Oh, it wa.s more than tha t .

Teiser: I see.

SG: You see, one of the things t ha t people don't rea l ize i s tha t

while they both came f'rom Indiana and they were almost country

boys i n a way, Ed would spend $1500 for a Sharaku pr in t and

not think anything of it , but on the other hand, jus t the

thought of a thousand dol la rs overdrawn would panic him. Be-

cause t h i s is the same man who would on Monday morning say,

" B O ~you know what we had? We had ice cream l a s t night fo r

dinner !" [~augh te r1

KG: I1

"chicken and peas and potatoes . . .

SG: He was ju s t a mass of contradictions. And also it should be

said i n a l l fa i rness t o him, t o Ed, that--what i s the phrase?

--no man's a hero t o h i s va l e t . Well, neither i s he a hero

t o t he man who works for him. Although I must say Bob contra-

d i c t s t ha t . Because I worked for him and he was and i s my

hero. He's really--he's a scholar, jus t a natural-born scholar,

and a good teacher, and t o be a teacher you have t o be gentle,

there 's no doubt about t h a t , but firm. When he punctures you,

i t ' s with a reason; but when Ed punctured you it could be

because he was a thousand dol la rs overdrawn, o r t h e f ac t t h a t

h e . . .

Teiser: . . . hadn't had ice cream f o r dinner?

SG: Yes. [~augh te r1 That's r i gh t exactly. You get t h e p ic ture ,

KG: For instance, on t h a t l i n e , when Jane made some sharp remark

t o him about something he'd done o r had done wrong, he said . . . SG: 'what's the matter with you? You got a hangover?"

KG: Yes. That was h i s idea of r e a l l y get t ing back a t someone.

Fixed her!

SG: I should s t a t e t h a t I was nowhere near as fond of Ed as I am

of Bob. I am actual ly a l i t t l e prejudiced against Ed; but I

don't want t o neglect t o point out t h a t he was an extremely

resourceful man; he was as ta lented as Bob, perhaps, but t h e i r

flowering was of d i f fe ren t orders. It was h i s resourcefulness

t h a t impressed me, whereas he himself sometimes depressed me.

I w i l l always remember him picking up a wood saw and s t a r t i n g

AD TYPOGRAPHY AM) TYPES

Teiser: About the switch from advertising typography t o books--I think

t h a t i n h i s interview, Ed Grabhorn indicated t h a t he just de-

cided he was going t o w i t c h , not going t o do any more of t h a t ,

jus t going t o do books--as if it were a decision he made one

day, and t h a t was tha t .

SG: Well, I don't th ink i t ' s as simple as t h a t .

KG: I don't th ink it was a s d ra s t i c as t h a t .

SG: When they were on Commercial Street , the Leon Livingston

[advertising] agency was approximately a block and a half away,

so t h a t we could run proofs over and there was no problem. But

when they sold the building and bought t he one out on Sut ter

S t ree t , t ha t meant t h a t somebody was going t o be gone fo r a t

l e a s t a half an hour t o take a. proof down. And you know,

advertising agencies have t o have t h i s revised proof now, and

then they get t he revise and then they ' l l look a t it fo r three

days, and then they have t o have a revise revise now so t h a t - 9

it became a matter so time-demanding t h a t they could afford t o

say, e ell, t o h e l l with it. 11

KG: Also, times had gotten be t te r .

SG: Yes, they could afford t o .

KG: Better than t h e Depression.

SG: But if we'd s t i l l been on Commercial S t ree t , where Bob and Andy

Hoyem are now--you know they're only ha l f a block from where

they were before--I think they would have done it. They didn ' t

have t o , so they didn' t . And the advertising work pays extremely

well , but it i s demanding, and i t 's i r r i t a t i n g , you know. Even

though you can charge hard pr ices , it becomes jus t i r r i t a t i n g ,

t h a t ' s all, t h a t everything has t o be done t h e i r way. I some-

times think they create these c r i s e s as far a s time is concerned.

KG: !&ey d id have a cer ta in respect for Bob Grabhorn's t a s t e . They

deferred t o him--the woman who ran the layouts.

SG: Albert a Rudolphi . KG: They never did a l l advertising. They jus t kept on a few lucra-

t i v e accounts t o s o r t of keep the payroll going.

SG: Also, some agencies demanded t h a t each time a new type face

was designed t h a t we put i n the whole family [of type], and

they jus t e i t he r wouldn't o r couldn't do it. I t ' s qui te expen-

s ive, and many times the types a re pure novelty types t h a t they

didn ' t want i n the shop, because they had a t e r r i f i c col lect ion

of qu i t e marvelous types.

Teiser : What happened t o them a l l ?

SG: Well, Bob and Andy have a l o t of it. They have the Bauer-Bodoni;

they have several of the Goudy types; they have the Franciscan

c lear ; and of course Goudy made a type fo r Jane Grabhorn, t h a t

F r i a r . A s f a r as I know she had the only F r i a r type. I don't

SG: know i f you remember it o r not; the c losest description would

be t o c a l l it an uncial . I t 's a type tha t he did i n h i s l a t e r

years, and you know t h a t l a s t f i r e destroyed the c lear mats

t h a t he had and so much of the type. Now the Grabhorn-Hoyem

have--I think they have--the Deepdene Text, which was destroyed,

and they have the New Style. Now the Goudy Antique I think i s

s t i l l - -no, very few of the Goudy types a r e st i l l available ex-

cept the ones t h a t Carroll [~arris]has on the machine o r on

the Thompson caster .

KG: Who had the Janson and the Lutetia?

SG: Well, the Lutet ia I hope they don't have, because t h a t ' s been

too used, and the Janson--you see, they got the Janson i n the

twenties, and tha t was the type t h a t Miss Rudolphi l iked, so

t h a t a l l the American Trust ads were s e t i n t h a t Janson, and

they were electrotyped. And even though you're not printing,

electrotyping i s hard on type, you know, because t h a t ' s forcing

the type in to t h i s wax. So t h a t ' s a r e a l testimony--whatever

you may think about the Germans, they did make hard, not b r i t t l e ,

type, because t h a t Janson took an awful beating. They were

making ads before I got there and a f t e r I l e f t , now and again,

i n t h a t same Janson, plus using it f o r announcements. I think

i t ' s beaut i ful type, too. Are you familiar with t h a t ? That

i t a l i c is jus t beaut i ful .

SHERWOOD GROVER 'S FIRST YEARS AS A PRINTER

Teiser: Let ' s go back t o t he beginning of your herwo wood Grover's]

career. Where were you born?

SG: I was born (do I have t o t e l l ? ) i n Oakland, California. I am

a native son. I met Trina a t the University High School, as

she said . And then when the Depression h i t , I thought I was

going t o college, but it was just p re t ty much a f inancial i m -

poss ib i l i ty . And also my grades weren't too good. So I was

fortunate enough t o get a job a t the Goodhue Print ing Company.

They're long gone now. For Oakland it was a large pr int ing

house, and they did work for Caterpi l lar Tractor and Fageol

and Marchant Calculator, and t h a t sor t of thing. And I was

t h e i r shipping c le rk fo r about, oh I guess a couple of years.

Shipping clerk meant I was the person t h a t did the delivering

and the wrapping and t h a t so r t of thing. And then they needed

an apprentice, and I had been interested i n pr int ing from high

school.

Teiser: Is t h a t how you happened t o get the job there, because you were

interested i n printing, or was it just t ha t there was a job?

SG: No. I was looking fo r a job, and I was fortunate enough tha t

I walked i n when they needed somebody.

KG: You know what the apprentices s ta r ted a t i n those days?

SG: Thirteen dol lars a week.

Teiser : Wha.t year was tha t?

SG: That was '32. That was a t the bottom.

KG: He actual ly got a ra i se when he went t o the ~rabhorns'.

SG: And you know you actual ly in those days could get by on $13

a week. And tha t was for the f i r s t s ix months. Then it went

up. But it seems incredible now.

Teiser : You were an apprentice pressman?

SG: I was an apprentice compositor then. That was one of the

pleasures of going over t o the Grabhorns'. Goodhue was of

course a union shop, and nobody from the composing room did

anything i n the pressroom. And a t the Grabhorns' we a l l would

work on the binding of a book; we'd a l l work on the se t t ing

of a book; and Ed and I, as you know, did basically all the

printing. But it was being able t o move around a l o t . And

of course we a l l did shipping too when a book was f ina l ly

finished . Teiser : How long were you with Goodhue, then?

SG: From 1932 t o 1935. You see, I l e f t a f t e r about two years of

apprenticeship and went over t o Grabhorns'.

Teiser : Directly from Goodhue?

SG: Yes. I wanted t o , because . . . KG: Ed asked him t o come.

Teiser : How come?

KG: Well, he came over and picked me up a few times, and he was very

interes ted i n books, and Ed took a fancy t o him.

SG: But a lso , a couple of times Trina and I would go over there on

a Sunday and we could use t he equipment and jus t so r t of s e t

things up.

Teiser : That was very generous of him, wasn't it?

SG: Yes, it was.

KG: I think it was one of t he few times Ed ever, asked anybody t o

come t o work fo r him. Some people even paid t o work there--

B i l l Roth . SG: Well, anyway, I was cer ta in ly pleased t o go there , and I must

say I never regret ted it.

Teiser : There a r e so many s t o r i e s about people wanting t o work there

and being to ld all kinds of outrageous reasons why they couldn't.

You're the f i r s t I 've ever heard of who was invi ted.

KG: Yes, I never thought of it before, but I do believe I never

heard of anyone e l s e t h a t he asked t o come t o work. He hap-

pened t o need somebody a t t h a t moment.

SG: Yes, t h a t ' s what it was. It 's jus t as when Trina walked i n the

day they needed somebody t o ship. Because there ' s one thing

you do lea rn a t t he Grabhorn Press--that there ' s no such thing

a s an indispensable man. And t h a t ' s t rue . You know he had some

qui te ta lented people there.

TOM HEWITT

Teiser: Were you taken on as a pressman?

SG: No, I was taken on bas ica l ly as a compositor. I did dis-

t r ibu t ion and lockup and t h a t so r t of thing. But then because

of 'Tom's* absences and then h i s prolonged absences, and then

when Social Security first came in i n '36, I guess Tom more o r

l e s s qu i t . . . KG: He was over-age already.

SG: Yes. He more o r l e s s could then r e t i r e . We're reca l l ing

something t h a t took place a long time ago, but a t l e a s t h i s

absences became longer and then a l l of a sudden he stoppped

altogether. But you see Tom was an in te res t ing man. He was

a damn good pressman, and he was a Boston Irishman who had a

strong sense of h i s own dignity.

KG: And h i s a b i l i t y as a pressman.

SG: He f e l t t h a t sometimes Ed didn' t show him the proper respect,

because it was not the mark of a gentleman t o re fe r t o another

gentleman's weaknesses w i t h the bo t t le . That was the way Tom

saw it. Ed sometimes would jab the needle a l i t t l e b i t .

* Tom Hewitt .

* SG: There's t h a t French chalk story. But Tom did some strange

things. Once we had a party, and it was a t Bob's 36th bir th-

day party, and we bought whiskey by the gallon, and there were

about f i v e gallons of whiskey. It was a big par ty and it was

a pre t ty well-oiled party. Anyway, Ed subsequently put l i n -

seed o i l in to one of these gallon jugs. Everybody had a key

t o the shop, and Tom would sometimes come i n on a Sunday. And

he came i n t h i s Sunday and there was t h i s l inseed o i l i n the

jug and he drank a l i t t l e b i t of it. And the next day he said,

" ~ d , what did you put i n t h a t jar?" And of course Ed t o l d him

it w a s l inseed o i l , and Tom began t o complain about it. '!Ed,

Ifyou shouldn't do tha t . Tom was quite upset, and then Ed said,

ist ten, Tom, the s tuf f you've been drinking, it shouldn't make

any difference. If You see, t o r e f e r d i rec t ly t o t h a t was ju s t

ungentlemanly. But he was t h a t so r t of a person.

KG: Tom said , hat's a h e l l of a thing t o put i n a whiskey bot t le ."

SG: And leave the l a b e l on. Tom believed t h a t Thackeray and

Shakespeare were t h e two great authors, and he used t o love t o

t a l k about them.

KG: He was qui te erudite i n t h a t sense--that he knew h i s spel l ing

and a good deal of his tory. He caught mistakes, errors, many

times on the press t ha t we passed up.

* See pp. 76-77, H a r t , James D .,Fine Pr in te rs of the San

Francisco Bay Area, an interview i n t h i s s e r i e s completed i n

1969.

SG: Have you ever seen pictures of him?

Teiser : No.

SG: I took a C ~ ~ p l eyears ago of him. He looked pret ty much as you

would expect him t o look, I think. He had a certain dignity.

KG: He was just gray a l l over--skin and eyes and hair . He was a

walking--he was a drunk. He had tha t gray complexion, no

color a t dl.

SG: Well, I guess there are two types. There is the f l o r i d drunk,

and the colorless drunk. [~aughter1

KG: He was a periodic drunk, I would say, because when he was work-

ing he took pretty good care t o be sober.

SG: Oh, yes. Only about twice did he come t o the shop drunk, and

he didn't come t o go t o work but he came t o more or l e s s say

hel lo t o everybody, and just a l l smiles.

Teiser : Otherwise he was sober when he worked.

SG: Yes, and very serious.

KG: And very good.

Teiser : He was w r y good?

KG: Oh yes, he was a good pressman.

SG: Yes.

KG: I f he wasn't he learned t o be one from Ed.

Teiser : How long had he been there?

KG: It was before our time.

SG: You see, he worked a t Taylor & Taylor for a long time. And he

was the i r master of the Laureate--and the Colt Armory--you

SG: know--presses. Because at one time, you know, Taylor & Taylor

did a l o t of t h a t so r t of work. I n f a c t , some of t h e i r e a r l y

programs they did for t h e art gallery--beautiflilly done--and

they r e a l l y socked, you know, used a l o t of impression.

PRESSES AND IMPRESSION

SG: Now could we diver t fo r a minute on t h a t ? I was amused t h a t *

Lawton and Ed and Lew, each one of them more or l e s s beats the

drum fo r h i s own type press, and you ju s t can' t help it, it 's

what you're used to . And yet I swear t o goodness t h a t good

work can be done on a l l th ree of them. It 's just what you

yourself prefer. I bought the Victoria because t h a t ' s what I

was used t o from the Grabhorn Press. That is , I used the

Laureate too, but because I had b u r s i t i s I was t ry ing t o get

a press t h a t would do some of the feeding automatically. It 's

t h a t type of press. But I r e a l l y believe t h a t it doesn't make

any difference . Teiser: The matter of the amount of pressure t h a t you were just speak-

ing of is a question of what? Taste, I suppose?

SG: Yes. Although in the twenties a l l the commercial p r in te rs

f e l t in f a c t you shouldn't show impression, and of course it

does make the type l a s t longer; the cuts l a s t longer.

* Lawton Kennedy, Edwin Grabhorn and Lewis Allen, as quoted i n

Pr int ing as a Performing A r t , edited by Ruth Teiser and Catherine

Harroun. Sa.n Francisco : Book Club of California, 1970.

SG: But I think t h a t impression, a t l e a s t some impression, gives a

l i t t l e dimension t o the page. And a l l of t h e p r in t e r s t h a t do

what I would c a l l f ine pr in t ing use impression. Now Lawton and

Alfred Kennedy, they use impression; they don't sock it, but

nevertheless, i t ' s apparent t h a t i t 's a l e t t e rp re s s as compared

t o , you know, photolithography, which i s jus t l a i d on t h e sheet.

KG: Par t of t h a t Lawton got from Jane in s i s t i ng on impression,

didn ' t he? When she had her books printed?

SG: Well, possibly. We're walking on strange ground here, because

of i ts depending on who was doing what for whom.

Teiser : You're speaking of the time when Lawton was doing press work

f o r Colt Press books?

KG: Yes. I can remember her having sa id things were done with not

enough impression.

SG: But don't you agree, looking a t Lew Allen's and t h e Grabhorns ' and Lawton's and almost anybody, you can t o a greater o r l esser

extent f e e l the impression, and I think t h a t ' s the difference

now, because a t one time they always said , "A cylinder press

(meaning a l e t t e rp re s s ) is the best press fo r half-tones."

Well, it probably s t i l l is, but t h e difference i s so l i t t l e

now t h a t they are doing such marvelous work with lithography,

photolithography. And there is a l i m i t a t which they can grind

out half-tones on a cylinder press because of the reciprocating

motion, whereas photolithography i s done on a rotary. But these

Sierra Club and t h e best of the Sunset books are photolithography,

duotone, t h a t s o r t of thing.

Teiser :

SG:

Teiser:

SG:

Teiser :

SG:

Teiser:

SG:

Teiser:

But you can ' t apparently, do half-tones properly on a pla ten

press?

A l l I know is t h a t I can ' t . You can do it, and a t one time they

used t o say the Laureate--this was before t he t u rn of t he cen-

tury--was the best , and maybe it was t he best press i n those

days because it was the most r i g id . But no, I don't th ink you

can do anywhere near a s good a job. I notice more and more *

now Lawton usual ly has h i s half-tones done by George Waters.

Doesn't George do some of h i s ?

I don't know who does now. He did have Waters.

But they're doing r e a l l y t e r r i f i c work.

I don't th ink Lawton ha.s printed half-tones f o r qu i te some

time . And t h a t , I think, i s t h e reason--that i t ' s eas ie r done, and

t h e half-tone you have t o do on a cylinder press, t h a t is , a

l e t t e rp re s s . I f you're going t o p r in t half-tones it has t o be

on some form of coated stock, and t h a t makes a difference be-

cause you always have t h a t gloss.

A t some point about four o r f i v e years ago, Lawton got from

D&f CD. H.] Murnick a f lat-bed

th ink he 's used it.

Well, you know old Munick--did

Yes.

-

* By o f f s e t photolithography.

gravure press, but I don't

you know him?

SG: Now there was a man t h a t knew h i s own mind too, wouldn't you

say?

Teiser: I never got close enough t o t e l l . He was p re t ty i r a sc ib l e .

SG: Well, yes. I knew him when I was a t the Goodhue Print ing Company,

because he did a l o t of t h e i r half-tone work, and he did gravure

work they d id now and again. It used t o amuse m e because the

man I worked f o r , who was my superintendent a t Goodhue, could

walk under t h i s table with a hat on.

Teiser : Who was he?

SG: Bob Mitchell. He was red-haired, and he had a temper jus t a s

quick, and he used t o read people off over the telephone. He

cal led one man, 'you brown son-of-bitch, t rying t o do t h a t t o

me." And t h e man hung up, and within f ive minutes he came

storming i n , ' h e r e i s t h a t Mitchell bastard?" And he walked

over and here was Bob Mitchell, and he said, " ~ e s u s ,I was go-

ing t o beat you up, you l i t t l e sh i t . If [ ~ a u g h t e r ] Anyway, it

was kind of a weird comedy, but he was a big man and he was

a l l s e t t o do ba t t l e .

Teiser : Don't t e l l me he had a run-in with Murnick!

SG: No, t h a t ' s what surprised me. Those two got along beautifully.

Murnick had some idea--and t h i s shows you what a brain I have--

he was making a z inc half-tone, and then he was coating it with

mercury, and h i s thinking was tha.t with t h i s mercury coating

then you could p r in t on rough stock; you know, instead of

having t o use coated stock you could use anything. And the

SG: two of them would fool around, t rying inks and t h i s and t h a t

every so often. Anyway, I didn' t mean t o d iver t .

Teiser: No, I think i t ' s good t o get Duff Murnick i n t h i s . He was

apparently a man of considerable t a l e n t .

SG: I think so. I remember he used t o run t h a t press himself.

It was f an t a s t i c . Teiser: It seems t o me I 've heard from Lawton t h a t he admired h i s

technical s k i l l , h i s craf'tsmanship, h i s honesty.

SG: Yes. I don't see how anyone could avoid it. I r e a l l y didn' t

know him, but I was i n contact with him for those four or f i ve

years, because one of the things I had t o do was always run

t o a photoengravers o r a Linotype o r wherever. I took proofs.

When you were a shipping clerk, you were everything t h a t didn' t

f a l l in to some uniform category t h a t was e i t he r press o r compo-

s i t i on . Because I used t o hang up the paper fo r seasoning and

t h a t sor t of thing, because t h a t was neither.

Teiser: So you came t o the Grabhorns p re t ty well equipped.

SG: Well, not rea l ly . I knew the case, and I thought I knew what

I l iked, but my God, when I think of what I didn' t know and

thought I did know. I think almost anybody tha t starts pr int ing

has a funny idea about what type s ize t o use. I think the f i r s t

t i t l e page I ever s e t up, probably the smallest type on the page

was 24-point and went on up. So t h a t there was no discipl ine.

And r ea l ly , pr int ing is something you learn by osmosis t o a

great extent, I think, by looking and by seeing what somebody

SG: e l s e i s doing. And then of course, as you well know, you never

are qui te sa t i s f ied , and tomorrow o r two weeks from today you

look a t it and you wonder, 'why i n the world didn't I put s i x

points more there?" O r something l i k e t ha t . And being in

contact with two of the really--what I consider--the great ones,

and hearing them go on, you begin t o pick up a l i t t l e b i t of it.

Teiser: You're i n t e r v i e w e d , ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ k b eone of the few people I 've the only

one, who went through an apprentice ship.

SG: I didn't go through it, you see. . .

Teiser: Well, got in to it even.

SG: Yes.

KG: Even B i l l ' s fa ther , who was a very stiff anti-union man, said,

11It might be a long time before you come up with a union job."

THE GRABHORN PRESS, CONTINUED

SG: I think Tom McDonald--you know him?

Teiser: No, but I 've heard h i s name. Tel l a l i t t l e about him.

SG: Well, he worked with John Henry Nash, and I think he was an

apprentice there , and then he worked a t t he Grabhorns' f o r

a while, along t h a t same period when John W o n and Helen

Gentry and Gregg Anderson did. But didn' t Bob speak of

McDonald a t all?

Teiser: I don't th ink so.

SG: This may be apocryphal ( ~ i m H a r t might know) but a t one time

McDonald, a s a young man, was in some depression of h i s own

and he decided t o end it all--which i s why I think it may be

apocryphal. The s tory i s t h a t he s tuffed h i s pockets with

Linotype slugs and was going t o jump of f t he p ie r . And then

I 1it was supposed t o have come t o him, My God, somebody who's

aspiring t o be a f i n e p r in t e r being found dead with Linotype

slugs i n h i s pockets!" So t h a t talked him out of it. I wish

you'd ask somebody. It 's not a very nice story, but I probably

heard it one drunken evening, but the main theme is there.

But is he a t Stanford o r Mackenzie [and Harris I ?

Teiser: Is he known a s Black Mack?

SG: Black Mack.

Teiser : He's a t Stanford. Professor H a r t has h i s press.

SG: Oh, yes, a l i t t l e Albion.

KG: It sounds l i k e a story he might have made up himself.

SG: Yes, but I think i t ' s a good story.

KG: Is he the McDonald who came f'rom a very wealthy family?

SG: No. That's the Standard O i l one.

KG: There was one McDonald tha t did pay money t o work a t the

Grabhorn Press . SG: He paid $50 a week t o work a t the Grabhorn Press. This was i n

the ear ly twenties, I think. Further, they did a book fo r him.

Wasn't t ha t the Thirty-seven D a y s of Per i l? Anyway, he was

the McDonald of the Standard O i l McDonalds, whoever they are.

They are well-to-do.

Teiser : Who e l se par t icular ly tha t you remember worked there?

SG: Well, Valenti [~nge lo1 wasn't there when we were there, but

he used t o come back i n the summer. I hope t o see him next

month when I go back [to New ~ o r k l . I t r y and see him each

time I 'm there.

Teiser : I f ever we can get t o New York I ' d cer tainly l i k e t o inter-

view him.

SGt I think it would be well worth while. Be sure t o bring your

camera, because they have just a charming house in Bronxville.

The top floor i s more or l e s s a studio printing off ice. He

has a Poco proof press tha t he's converted t o the point where

he 's done some books. I n f ac t one of them I t l l show you. B U ~

SG: he's just such a nice person; you know there i sn ' t a malicious

bone i n h i s body.

KG: Now, he 's one person t h a t I've heard say how sweet Ed was.

SG: Now Ed has made cracks, ra ther unpleasant and unkind cracks,

about Valenti. hat's why I emphasize t h a t there i sn ' t a

malicious or an envious o r a mean bone i n Valenti's body.

KG: Some people had permanently ru f f l ed feel ings a f t e r hearing

about Ed's cracks. But they didn't know him well enough t o

r ea l i ze t ha t he was a unique person under t he sun.

SG: We saw more of the warts than the average person, because

there 's nobody who could be more charming than Ed. He would

help somebody. I know once Adrian r ~ i l s o n ] r igh t a f t e r t he

w a r came in , and Ed gave him a long time t a l k , gave him some

paper. And yet a few years l a t e r Jack Stauffacher cal led up

t o ask how t o go about wetting paper t o pr in t , and Ed wouldn't

t e l l him, because he said he figured, ' h a t the hel l ! I should

t e l l my competitors!"

KG: Well, he was jus t i n a mood.

SG: Well, but these are t h e things t ha t happened. Because I know

many times it was the other way around. Ed i n h i s salad days

was writ ing t o Bruce Rogers and.Goudy and whoever, sending them

samples, 'how what am I doing wrong here?" and so on.

KG: Well, Stauffacher probably did something he didn't even know

about.

SG: No. The minute somebody became something of a competitor or a

th rea t t o him . . . KG: That's it. I was never i n any sense a competitor of Ed's, and

he was always very nice t o me. Jane had her brushes with him,

of course, but she was def in i te ly competition. That's one of

the things t h a t makes Bob out t o be a r e a l sa in t . There he was

between t h i s wonderful wife and wonderful brother, and I t e l l

you things were l ively!

SG: What i s the phrase--between the upper and the nether millstone?

Oh my, it did grind exceeding f ine f lour sometimes.

KG: Sometimes they were both r i gh t , but neither one could see the

other 's point of view.

Teiser: What do you think Jane's contribution t o t h a t organization was?

KG: Life. A s f a r as I was concerned, she was the l i f e of t h a t press

i n the days when we were there . O f course Bob and Ed were

basical ly the press, but she cer ta in ly made l i f e interest ing.

SG: Concretely it would be d i f f i c u l t t o say.

KG: Yes. A def in i te contribution was the f a c t t h a t she was well

educated, and she w a s i n a posit ion t o wri te l i t t l e things t h a t

they needed, and e d i t , and proofread, and so on.

SG: She did save Ed from a l o t of ra ther egregious mistakes. Ed,

f o r example, when he wrote t h e Caxton introduction --I saved

Ed's o r ig ina l handwritten version and gave it t o J i m Hart f o r

the archive, and it shows there . H i s passages were get t ing

ra ther f l o r id , and Jane was able t o bring it together.

SG: But there 's one thing I guess t ha t has t o be c l ea r ly understood--

t h a t there was no such thing as an indispensable person--Jane,

Bob, or Ed. Now, Ed went t o Japan f o r however many mnths it was;

t he shop went on. Bob and Jane went t o Europe, and the shop went

on. It had momentum, I guess, but cer ta inly it had t o have a

Grabhorn i n attendance, t ha t ' s sure, f o r it t o go. Ed was a

remarkable host , there i n t he pr int ing of f ice when people came

in , because he could be jus t Lord Chesterfield himself a s f a r

a s grace was concerned. Especially i f he was bored with what

he had been doing.

Teiser: What were the things t h a t you worked on tha t in terested you

most?

SG: Well, I can't say I did much on it, but I worked on the

Years Before t he Mast, which I think i s cer ta in ly one of t h e

cornerstones; say i f there were twelve books, t h a t would be

one of t h e basic ones they did. It 's ju s t a book t h a t has

everything as f a r as I 'm concerned.

PRESSWORK AM) COMPOSIlTON

SG: I did get t o l i k e pr int ing, t h a t is , running a press, but tha t

i s more maddening. You see, when you're s e t t i ng type, every-

th ing i s pre t ty much logical , l i nea r , or whatever the phrase

i s now; but i n the press there r e a l l y are gremlins of various

s o r t s and mysterious happenings. Really! Backing up a sheet

can confound you sometimes. And of course there you're a t w a r

between the stone man, t he man who locks up the form--he says,

' ve l l , what the he l l ! Your guides are wrong; t h a t ' s why it

won't back up." And you say, 'veil, it won't back up because

t h i s page is four points short . 11 And f i n a l l y one person is

proven t o be r i gh t . But over and above t h a t there are things

such as--you know what a work-up is. Now, there 's no reason

for t h a t i f i t ' s properly done, but s t i l l it happens, and

you've been going b l i t he ly along feeding and then a l l of a sud-

den, wham! Here i s t h i s black square s tar ing a t you. 'by

didn't I see t h a t f i f t y impressions ago?" And so on. And

sometimes it w i l l o f f se t f o r no good reason. Presswork is more

mystical than composing, than typesett ing, I believe a t any

r a t e . Now t h a t ' s where I think t h a t Lawton Kennedy--and I

assume Alfred--I don 't know who does what now, but I know t h a t

SG: Lawton's presswork jus t i s impeccable. And Ed's, which i s where

I learned, Ed's is not. H i s a t t en t ion span and h i s threshold of

i r r i t a b i l i t y i n things l i k e t h a t was low, so t h a t all of a sudden

he'd say: '%Iell, what the h e l l ; t h a t ' s good enough .I1 And tha t 's

catching, you know. So tha t i n a way I would l i k e t o have, say,

worked under somebody l i k e Lawton, who would say, "'This i s the

way it 's got t o be," It's a habit I don't have and I wish I

did, And yet I l i k e presswork, because there is something if

t he ink i s r igh t and the paper is r igh t . Ed himself has said,

11Good press work can save a bad job." Well, it may not save it,

but it can a t l e a s t make it bearable and usable.

Teiser: He didn't s e t type, did he?

SG: Ed? Oh yes.

Teiser : Much?

SG: No. Because there again h i s a t ten t ion span on things l i k e t h a t ,

because he didn' t have t o do them, I guess, was short . A t any

r a t e , he would s i t down and d i s t r i bu te , o r , as he would say, "I'd

l i k e a nice ass job, 11 you know, because you could si t down when

you were dis t r ibut ing. But then he would begin t o wander and

t a l k and walk up and down and then say, '%ere, you f in i sh . 11

But you are r i gh t , he didn' t s e t much. H i s mind would wander.

And I am not a very good spe l le r , but he was fan tas t ic , I have

learned a l i t t l e b i t , thanks t o Trina and ju s t doing it, s o

I am a be t te r spe l le r than I was t h i r t y years ago, but he was

not a very good spe l le r . And you can't l e t your mind wander

SG: ( a t l e a s t I can ' t ) when you're t rying t o s e t type, o r you' l l

put i n doubles, you know, an "and" a t the end of one l i n e

and an "and" a t the beginning of t h e next, o r leave out a

phrase.

Teiser: He sa id he didn't have the patience.

SG: Yes. But on the other hand, i f there i s such a dis t inct ion,

he may not have had patience but he had perseverance, because

he would get up from the f loor time a f t e r time, o r i f he was

on the t rack of something i n the way of a type arrangement,

he would t r y every possible way, and he would ask everybody,

even the garbageman, 'what do you think of t h i s ? " But he

would keep on doing it, and say three times out of f ive he

would arr ive a t something, o r maybe four times. But once i n a

while t h a t f i f t h time was a brute.

NOTABLE BOOKS

SG: For example, everybody was supposed t o be e n t i t l e d t o take a

book home when t h e job was finished, and i t ' s very nice. But

we did several books fo r J i m Ransohoff of the women's s tore ,

and they were a l l qu i te nice except one--Bret Harte, The Luck

of Roaring Camp, and f o r some reason he, a s they say, got on

the ra i l road t rack, and nobody could put him o f f it. And the

whole book was j u s t too much of a muchness--it was f l o r id , and

it was j u s t awful. And I didn't bring one home, and t h a t ' s

j u s t the ultimate a s far a s I ' m concerned, because the books

were usually in te res t ing f o r one reason o r another. Maybe the

text of ten was useless, never should have seen the l i g h t of day,

but the way it was t rea ted would make it in te res t ing . But t h a t

book was a c lass ic example of when he took the b i t i n h i s t ee th ,

because usually Bob could say, "For God's sake, Ed, hang it up."

But t h i s one time he was, a s I said, on t h e track, and nobody . . . And it didn't of ten happen, because he knew, i n f a c t I once heard

him ta lk ing t o Carrol l [~ar r i s lwhen Carrol l had asked t h e i r

opinion about a job t h a t he was doing, and Bob said , 'bo .I1

And then Carrol l kind of wanted t o see it h i s [ ~ a r r o l l ' s ] way,

and Ed sa id something l i ke , '!Listen, Carroll , when Bob says

'No, ' you'd be t t e r l i s t e n ." And t h a t is so t rue , because Bob,

SG: unlike Ed, couldn't say t h a t something was bad simply because

he didn't l i k e you, or he didn' t f e e l well. I r e a l l y f e e l t h a t

he -has t o say what he f e e l s about something, which i s r e a l l y

unusual, I think. Jane has t ha t same thing. For example, now

Mallette [ ~ e a n li s a good case i n point . When he f i r s t s ta r ted

h i s press he many times came over and they would t a l k about

t h i s o r t h a t job t h a t Mallette was working on. Ed might say,

'yeah, t ha t ' s swell," or something noncommittal. But Bob

would give him good c r i t i c a l , honest advice.

Incidentally, another book tha t I would pick a s one of the

twelve i s tha t Wah-To-Yah. Mow it 's unfortunate tha t i t ' s

printed on a pulp paper. I don't think i t ' s going t o l a s t

t e r r i b l y long, and it i s a shame because i t ' s perfect . I

think the color i s perfect fo r the linoleum blocks. It 's a

gray, but i t ' s a warm gray, i n the paper. Now t h i s i s Garamond.

But I think t h a t t h a t book i s a beaut i ful example of the type-

s e t t e r and the i l l u s t r a t o r and the designer and the pressman,

everybody r e a l l y working wel l together. And the or ig ina l

narrator . . . I f you haven't rea.d the book, I have around

the house George P fe i f f e r ' s edit ion of it, and 1 'd be glad t o

have you take it.

KG: It 's good rea.ding . Teiser: So many f ine press books, it doesn't occur t o me t o read them.

KG: I know what you mean.

SG: You're right' . I think even the introduction by C a r l Wheat i s

worth reading. Carl was something of a f l o r i d wri ter , but I

think the book came through t o him. Incidentally, two of h i s

books, the California maps tha t we did i n about 1939 or '40*

--that was a book I certairily enjoyed working on, I thought t ha t

was a beaut i ful book. And then h i s l~app ing t h e ] Trans-

mississippi West. You know we printed the f i r s t volume a t the

press, and then the others, almost a l l of them, were done a t

Taylor & Taylor, I think. But t ha t first one l i k e t o have

k i l l ed us, because you know t h a t was a thousand impressions, I

think, and t h a t ' s hard work for a big o ld platen l i k e t ha t .

Teiser: Let me change t h i s tape. Perhaps we should continue t h i s a f t e r

lunch.

(~ovember13, 1970 - afternoon session)

Teiser: You were ta lk ing about books you enjoyed especial ly working on.

Are there others t ha t you think of?

SG: Well, yes. Almost a l l of the Book Club books were fun. t o do.

I n f a c t a l l of them were, t o a greater o r l e s se r extent. Now

t h a t Hundredth ~ook*? remember t ha t was r e a l l y a piece of

nostalgia for us, because it ran the gamut.

* The Maps of the California Gold Region, 1848-1857. It was

published i n 1942. )tK

A bibliography of Book Club of California publications.

SG: Of course so many of them were done 'way before we came there.

Now The Santa Fe Trai l is one of the books tha t I want of the

Grabhorn books. There aren't too many of them tha t I r e a l l y

want, because a l o t of froth, as you know, just had t o be done.

But I think The Santa Fe Tra i l i s a very interest ing book, and

I would l i k e t o have worked on tha t . The Japanese pr in t books

were sort of fun, but also they got t o be something of a drag

a f t e r a while.

Teiser: Did you do the presswork on those?

SG: Well, I did the type, most of the type, but Ed cut most of the

blocks. I cut a few and ran a few. Now there was an example

of where something l e s s than precision was accomplished with

some of the Japanese pr in ts simply because of Ed's impatience.

And yet he spent a l o t of time with colors, get t ing them right .

And he did certainly get the feel . I shouldn't leave t h i s

[~apanese print book i l lu s t r a t ion] out t h i s way, because i t ' s

faded badly, but when tha t was finished I thought it was quite

remarkably close t o the original. And we had qui te a few.

That 's one [original 1 from John [ ~ c ~ l e l l a n d1. KG: That's a Hiroshige I looted from John's estate .

SG: Some of the pr in ts I enjoyed working on because, naturally, the

number of times those went through the press ---!It didn't

take an a r t i s t t o cut blocks for tha t because of t h i s technique

Ed had worked out for making t ransfers onto a block; then

anybody, once the outline is on the linoleum, can cut it. But

SG: you probably know t h a t the key black was gravure; Meriden

Gravure did them, and they are done on a damp sheet, so t h a t

t he variation was such tha t t h e r eg i s t e r was fan tas t ic . And

f i n a l l y a l l of those sheets were cut with a razor in order t o

get a r eg i s t e r . So t h a t it was r e a l l y murder. I guess t h a t ' s

one of t h e reasons t h a t on the Book Club book t h a t Grabhorn- *

Hoyem are doing now, they're not doing the blocks, as I

understand it . Teiser : They aren' t as a matter of fac t . I think they're having Waters

do the i l l u s t r a t i ons .

SG: Well, in a way it 's too bad, I think. But t h a t fellow Meyers;

you know, I don't think he ever stood a watch, he was too busy

making pictures . Because some Southern univers i ty did a book

of h i s ; and when I was there we did one fo r Random House i n

1939 o r 1940, t he Naval Sketches with an introduction by

Roosevelt, who owned the or ig ina ls ; and then we did one f o r the

Book Club i n the f i f t i e s , and now they're doing another one,

and then somebody e l se did one. And you know each one of them

i s over twenty plates .

* Meyers, W i l l i a m H., Sketches of California & Hawaii.

Teiser:

SG:

Teiser:

SG:

Teiser :

SG:

KG:

Tei s e r :

SG:

KG:

SG:

KG:

WARTIME AND CHANGES

You continued with t he Grabhorn Press u n t i l the war?

Yes, I worked there through '41, I think, and then I went t o

Pan American. I was a t Pan American fo r jus t about a year,

and then I got a i r sick, and of course you washed out immediately

then. I was a f l i g h t radio t ra inee. So then I went back t o

Grabhorns' and it was a race between the Merchant Marine and the

Army a s t o who was t o get me, because I had an operator 's l icense.

A radio operator 's l icense?

Yes.

Had t h i s been a hobby with you?

No. Well, a l i t t l e b i t , jus t a l i t t l e b i t . I was interested

in , oh h i fi 's.

I prodded him in to it t o keep him out of the infantry, if you

want t o know.

You got a i r sick?

Yes.

A t high a l t i tudes .

Well, no, it wasn 't tha t .

You don't get a i r s ick now, f lying, Also those were vibrat ing

old planes, those c l ippers , He didn't get a i r sick; he jus t

KG: woke up lying looking up a t t he cei l ing, jus t passed r igh t out.

1t's more than a i r sickness.

SG: But then I went in to the Merchant Marine f o r t he next two years.

And I can't say t h a t I suffered during the w a r .

KG: Was it only two years you were in?

SG: Well, two and a half , say, about.

Teiser : Where were you, i n the Pacif ic?

SG: Yes. I was always hoping I 'd get t o Europe, you know, because

the t rop ica l i s l e s are grossly overrated--at l e a s t t h a t was my

experience. Yet I have seen some qui te in te res t ing places

there, but Manila was not one of them, and nei ther was Honolulu.

But I enjoyed seeing New Guinea and New Britain, and Manus

Is land and par t of t he Philippines.

KG: H i s i s one of t he people he met down there.

SG: Oh yes. Richard Sybenga was a purser on a t r i p tha t we made

together down there , and we more o r l e s s h i t it o f f , so we kept

corresponding when we went on separate ships l a t e r on. So tha t

actual ly I was a t t he Grabhorns' jus t about 25 years except for

roughly th ree years during t h e war.

Teiser : How did you happen t o decide t o leave? Was there any immediate

cause or had you jus t decided you wanted t o do t h i s ?

SG: Well, a s I t o l d you, I ha.d bu r s i t i s , and t h a t ' s something t h a t

doesn't improve doing t h a t so r t of work.

* I n Hand Associates.

SG: My doctor said , "Grover, you're over 45. Learn t o l i v e with

it." But he t r i e d cortisone and t h a t did nothing. What he

would do was h i t tha,t spot and break it up and draw it out--

there are things I enjoy more i n life--and tha t would almost

ins tan t ly re l ieve it. Then f o r six o r e ight months you're a l l

r i gh t again. So t h a t was the big reason. And then, i n all

fai rness , it was not t he most f inanc ia l ly rewarding place t o

work. But mainly it was t h a t I had known Gordon and Dick qui te

a long time, and they suggested I come in with them [ in Hand

Associates 1.

Teiser: Oh, they had already s tar ted?

KG: Yes, they were begging him t o come in .

SG: So it a l l came about.

ROBERT AND JANE GRAEPIORN

Teiser: When I f i r s t talked with Jane Grabhorn years ago she was say-

ing, here's nobody around here t o do the hard work except

Grover and me and we 're get t ing old, and we 're not paying him

anything for it, and I don't want t o do it anyway," and so on.

[ ~ a u g h t e r ] It seems t o me from t h a t time on I knew t h a t you

were underpaid, overworked, and appreciated. (Laughter 1

KG: Mostly by Jane. And me . SG: I don't know about overworked, but I cer ta in ly had my regre t s

leaving, and as I say, I never w i l l r egre t having gone there.

KG: We r e a l l y l ived l i k e monks. We came down here every weekend

and we had a small apartment i n the c i t y which we only got

because Marjorie owned the building, and Ed wanted B i l l back

badly a f t e r the w a r , so he said , " ~ i v eme an apartment and I'll

come back. 11 She did, and we did. But it was very rough sled-

ding compared t o most of the people we knew. It was f a i r l y

rough but not too bad.

SG: Well, there were compensations. For example, I was able t o do

t h a t Typophile book, you see. Now the Ty-pophiles supplied

the paper, but the boards, the press, the ink, and everything

e l s e was supplied by the Grabhorn Press, and I printed it on

SG: weekends and a t night. Wina and I se t it up over the months.

Te i s e r : Let me put the t i t l e on the record. Typophile Chap Books,

Volume 38, A Commonplace Book fo r Typophiles, with an introduc-

t i on by Jane Grabhorn, New York. The Typophiles, 1959. That's

a beaut i ful book.

SG: Well, it was fun t o do. Some pages I had reduced from the

or ig ina l one.

KG: Another compensation, of course, was t h a t we l ived r i g h t across

the s t r e e t from Bob and Jane, and they were ju s t del ightful

people.

SG: I t ' s been r e a l l y a de l igh t fu l association, and s t i l l is. That's

where we were on Thanksgiving.

KG: Yes, t h a t ' s ge t t ing t o be a regular now. We were always t rying

t o get away from our own family reunions of one s o r t of an-

other, and we usually ended up with the Grabhorns, with t h e i r

family, which i s n ' t as bad as our family.

Te i s e r : Nobody e l se ' s is a s bad as your own.

SG: Somebody else 's family you can pick.

KG: B i l l and I were saying a t lunch t h a t it would have been fun i f

Bob and Jane could have been here too, you know, t o t a l k over

the t h i r t i e s and the f o r t i e s . Everybody has a d i f fe ren t angle.

Bob is jus t del ightful and Jane too, conversationally.

Teiser: Bob hates t o be tape-recorded.

SG: Well he hates t o be quoted.

KG: He must have gotten used t o it, because he said he enjoyed Jim

Hammondes tape. Ruth might be interested i n t h a t recording

J i m Hammond made.

SG: Oh yes. This Hammond, who was a man who waved a check a t me,

i s a cinematographer, I guess you would say. Anyway, he makes

documentaries, and he's working on one b i rd f i lm and he 's work-

ing on one on the delinquent children of the [university o f ]

California. faculty. Anyway, he 's interested i n pr int ing, and

he asked if I thought the Grabhorns would hold s t i l l for being

interviewed on camera. So he did. I more or l e s s interviewed

Bob and Jane on camera, and he's done two r ee l s , and of course

out of an hour we probably produced twelve minutes of usable

fi lm.

KG: I seem t o remember they ra ther enjoyed it. I wouldn't be

surprised but t h a t B i l l e s doing the interviewing may have put

a spark t o the proceedings possibly. I remember Bob saying he

enjoyed it.

Teiser: Well, I don't think he r e a l l y enjoyed being interviewed by me,

although he gave what I f e l t was a very, very good and thought-

f u l interview.

SG: Well, he 's a scholar, but he i s a d i f f iden t man . . . Teiser: He's a per fec t ion is t , I think.

SG: Yes. Well, he 's overly c r i t i c a l of himself, extremely, be-

cause he has such a horror of sham. I guess t h a t e s one thing--

SG: t ha t perhaps Ed was a l i t t l e lush when ta lking about himself

and the things he did, and Bob reac ts the other way.

KG: Also there ' s jus t so much ground t o be covered; I guess he

probably f e l t the f u t i l i t y of it. I 'm sure t h a t f i l m of

Hamnd ' s w i l l show up i n time.

Teiser : William Holman, who was the l i b ra r i an a t the San F'rancisco

Public Library, did a film, I think.

SG: That was shown. I missed it; I was out of town, but it was

shown a t the Roxburghe Club, and I gather t h a t i t ' s unfortunate

because i t ' s not sound on f i l m , but Harnmond's i s sound on fi lm,

of course.

KG: And color.

SG: So Andy said t h a t what Holman's f i lm amounted t o was you see

people grinning a t the camera while they're se t t ing type or

whatever. And he was so impressed by Lew Allen's house tha t

he evidently focused the camera on the swimming pool 1c;ng

enough so tha t someone f i n a l l y said, "IS t ha t where they wet

the paper?" [~augh te r l You know, there 's nothing deadlier

than some of these s i l e n t f i lms of such action as a type-

founder--what the h e l l ' s he doing? And unless i t ' s done with

a r e a l professional so t h a t you fade i n and fade out and shoot

f i f t e e n t o fo r ty seconds--I mean t h a t ' s a maximum--but the

amateurs, whether they're young o r old, w i l l hang on t h i s one

thing u n t i l you want t o scream, and I think t h a t ' s the problem

with B i l l Holman's. It t e l l s you nothing while showing you

'way too much.

'ME ROXBURQIE CLUB

Teiser: It was my impression t h a t Bob Gralkorn hadn't seen it.

SG: Well, he doesn't come t o very many Roxburghe meetings--I doubt

i f h e ' l l come t o the one next Tuesday. Andy comes t o qu i te a

few, as you know. But ~ o b ' s been going f o r so long, and the

f a c t t h a t he can' t o r shouldn't drink . . . KG: He's cut t ing down.

SG: And some of these t a l k s t ha t we get--they get some r e a l droners

there , and without some form of anesthesia it can be painful.

[ ~ a u ~ h t e r ]Not always, but sometimes. Star t ing i n 1 9 9 , I

think, Bob's been going t o them of f and on.

Teiser: Surely he's heard everything t h a t ' s t o be said.

SG: Well, he would come if, say Klingspor was going t o be there, or

Goudy, or Rogers, maybe, I don't know; but f o r the run-of-the-

m i l l , no, he wouldn 't do it.

It 's kind of a loose organization tha t comes and goes, or

something close t o it. You knaw the Roxburghe has no consti tu-

t i o n o r by-laws and so on, and i t ' s nice i n t h a t respect.

When I was an of f icer in the club, one of my ways of passing

the time used t o be t o watch and see who was dropping o f f . And

some of them are honest about it, they just f l op l i k e t h i s .

SG: But the sneaks w i l l do l i k e t h i s , and you can't t e l l . But

sometimes they give themselves away by snoring. But it i s a

l o t of fun.

KG: It's actual ly a ra ther pleasant meeting ground, I think.

SG: Oh yes. There are a l o t of congenial people. I always enjoy

the Book Club cocktail par t ies , excepting I always have t o

Itremember, 'how these boys pour l e t h a l drinks. I have t o be

very careful. But they're fun, and t h a t same group would f i t

in to the Roxburghe Club, it seems t o me, but it'll never hap-

pen, because there a re a few . . . [who would not favor admit-

t ing women ]. Well, maybe I shouldn't say tha t , because look,

* Schroeder 's was of t ha t point of view.

Teiser: I was once asking Colonel H a r r i s about writ ing an a r t i c l e about

the Roxburghe Club, and he said, ' t lel l , you'd be t te r not, be-

cause somebody might ask t o get i n it, and a sure way not t o

be invited is t o ask."

SG: Well, it is a very strangorganization--as I say, no by-laws,

no ru les , and yet there a re cer ta in inf lexible rules . And

there 's a cabal, you know, Carroll and David [ ~ a ~ e e1 and Ted

Li l ienthal , I guess a re about the mst driving forces i n it.

Then whoever's the "master" and the "devil," they are more o r

l e s s t h e s a t e l l i t e s . They attend t o de t a i l s .

* For many years Schroeder 's Restaurant i n San Francisco refused

t o admit women fo r lunch, then was forced t o by mil i tant

women.

Teiser: They get t o do the work?

SG: Yes. And also they go t o the executive meetings, and they are

l is tened t o but not necessarily heeded.

This pa r t of the interview was not o r ig ina l ly intended

t o be included i n the o r a l h i s tory interview. It was done

t o co l lec t material fo r an a r t i c l e fo r t he San Francisco

Chronicle book section about t he Grace Hoper Press, t he

pr ivate press of Shemod and Katharine Grover.

This pa r t was done f i r s t , and a f t e r the main par t of

t he interview was finished, we decided t h a t t h i s could stand

as the end of i t-- that what had been sa id was no d i f fe ren t

than what would be said again t o bring t h e i r account of t h e i r

pr int ing a c t i v i t i e s up t o the present.

Ruth Teiser

THE GRACE HOPER PRESS

Teiser: You are both involved in the Grace Hoper Press?

SG: Oh my goodness, yes. I t 's a joint enterpr ise , no doubt about

t ha t .

Teiser: What's i ts or igin?

SG: Well, the name i t s e l f comes from Finnegans Wake. Maybe you'd

heard tha t . You see, Bob and Jane and Trina and I used t o

read Joyce aloud--it was one way we could understand it, and

you know there 's the fable of the Grace Hoper and the Ondt

[grasshopper and the an t ] i n t h a t , and tha t ' s where tha.t

came from. I saw t h i s Indian device t h a t the Grabhorns had

and weren't even too sure where it came from. It was i n a

book a wood block cu t te r from New Mexico had done many years

ago, and it looked l i k e a Grace Hoper t o me, so t h a t became

our device. We had done books before t ha t .

Teiser: When did you do your f i r s t book?

SG: Well, l e t ' s see. Man with the Watch i n h i s Hand, by John Dos

Passos, you know, one of those biographies. We had always

been admirers of h i s , so we asked fo r permission and we

printed a s a Christmas present 25 copies, I think, of The Man

with the Watch i n h i s Hand. And then l a t e r on we did another

SG: Christmas present, Dos Passos' sketch on Thorstein Veblen,

The B i t t e r Drink.

Teiser: When was the f i r s t one?

SG: 1939. I remember t h a t very c lear ly . Then the following two

Christmases, '40 and '41, we did the Veblen and one on Ford

and Hearst. A l l of them, of course, a re Dos Passos' biog-

raphies, done a f t e r hours. That was one of the nice things

about the [~rabhorn1 Press, t h a t we could work on whatever we

wanted t o a f t e r hours, so t h a t we'd come over on the weekend

or work a t night. We could use a l l the gear and paper. Be-

cause, you know, you've got t o do things want t o do ra ther

than doing the things t h a t had t o be done.

Teiser: But you were both working a t the Grabhorn Press then?

SG: Yes. You see, Trina came there i n '34, and then I came i n '35.

She was a typeset ter ; I was a typeset ter and s t a r t ed running

the press because . . . I ' m not about t o t e l l you any more

anecdotes about TomHewitt the pressman because they have been

wrung out. But he, a s you know, was a periodic drinker, and

when he took off he would be gone for about f ive weeks, and a

couple of times something had t o be done, so I was the young-

e s t so I was s t a r t i ng t o run the press. Bob ju s t wouldn't run

a press; he d idn ' t l i ke t he idea of it. I think he f e l t t h a t

if he once s ta r ted then he'd be doing it all the time. So I

did become something of a pressman because of Tom's absences.

Teiser :

SG:

Teiser :

SG:

Teiser :

SG:

Teiser :

SG:

You know, i n h i s o ra l h i s tory interview, Bob said t ha t he didn' t

run a press because Ed didn' t want him t o , t h a t he always kind

of wished he could.

Well, those are impressions you get. Maybe t h i s i s looking back,

but a t the time I got the feel ing t h a t he p r e t t y much wanted no

par t o f it. I guess Bob, from the vantage point of almost 70

years, was thinking what he might have enjoyed, but a t t he time

when I first knew him--see, he's jus t as o ld as the century, so

t h a t I f i r s t met him when he was about 32 or 33, and I think by

the time he was 65 he began t o think, "1've been se t t i ng type

a l l m y l i f e . 1I

Your own press then began without any name, or did you jus t use

your own names on it?

Jus t our own names, jus t Itprinted by . . . " And it was purely a spare time ac t iv i ty?

Yes. After hours' a c t iv i ty .

Then did you jus t continue pr int ing Christmas books?

Well, yes, although we did a l o t of ephemeral things. We printed

--you know Trina's fa ther wrote t h a t evolution poem, and we printed

t h a t for her mother a couple of times, and Christmas cards. That

poem you probably know, I ' m ashamed t h a t I don't know it by hear t ,

but it starts out, "A f ire-mist and a planet [and ends 1 some of

us c a l l it Evolution, and others c a l l it God."

The name of it i s 'Qach i n H i s Own Tongue."

SG: A t any r a t e , we used it in one of our commonplace books. Trina's

rather diffident a b u t it, but I think i t ' s r ea l ly quite a good

poem.

SG: But we also have done a l o t of--well, Jane Grabhorn, for example,

writes often very amusing l e t t e r s , and once i n a while we've

printed one of them long a f t e r , I think, she'd forgotten. I n

fac t , I'll show you a couple of them.

Teiser: Were one or two of those included i n The Compleat Jane Grabhorn?

SG: Yes. When I would come down here on vacation--this was long

a f t e r Trina had l e f t the shop--Jane sometimes would write a l e t t e r

i f something part icular ly amusing had happened.

SG: You know, some people can write short s tor ies , others novels;

she i s a l e t t e r writer. You've seen the l e t t e r s she wrote,

'bear Victoria . . . " t h a t came out in the quarterly? There

was a quarterly of about f i f t e e n o r twenty years ago tha t was

on the Grabhorns.

Teiser: A Book Club quarterly? *

SG: Yes. And they had a statement from Bob and a statement from

Ed, and then they asked Jane t o do something, and she said,

'well, I 'll only do it if you ' l l l e t me write a l e t t e r t o my

niece victoria." And i t ' s r ea l ly qui te t o the point, because

i t ' s one more attempt a t describing the indescribable Bob and

Ed Grabhorn.

* The Book Club of California Quarterly News-Letter, VaL XIV,

No. 1; 1949.

Te i se r : So you occasionally printed her l e t t e r s ?

SG: Yes, and l o t s of Christmas cards, both for my family and fo r

Trina and me, and some of them had t o be rather limited in

circulation. Nowadays they wouldn't, but then a few four-

l e t t e r words or something l i k e tha t . Some of Jane's Christmas

cards I think have been k i l l ing i n tha t respect.

Teiser : What year did you s t a r t using the Grace Hoper imprint?

SG: I think I can pinpoint it, but approximately 1956. I did a

poem, printed a poem of Jane's. In fac t , if you want t o hold

tha t for a second 1'11go get it.

Teiser : [reading1 1954.

SG: Yes, t h a t ' s the f i r s t time we used the Grace Hoper name.

Teiser : The t i t l e is An Fragment Unpublished by the Jumbo Press,

privately printed, 1954.

SG: It 's kind of a wild lash up, but we found it. Jane had done

it a long time ago and then had l o s t it. And I think i t ' s

typical. So these were usually done for her birthday, and

t h a t ' s how it f i r s t came in to being.

Teiser : Oh, t h a t ' s r ea l ly beautiful.

SG: Well, t h a t ' s another example of after-hours ' projects.

This is some of tha t Van Gelder handmade [paper]. It

doesn't happen any more, a las , but it used t o happen tha t

every once i n a while t h i s or tha t paper man would come up with

a. by God remainder of handmade paper . . . well, you know the

story of Ed and Bob buying over a ton of French handmade paper.

Teiser : No, I don't know it. W i l l you t e l l i t ?

SG: It's not much of a story. The brothers were offered a huge

amount of French handmade paper a t 15 cents a pound. They

printed both bibliographies and many other books. Jane bought

some fo r the Colt Press, and printed Omai and Jane Austen's -[Three ~ven ing] Prayers on some of it.

What makes the story is tha t the buy w a s made about 1939.

I n a few years with World War I1 on, paper was very hard t o

get without pr ior i t ies . !Fhe resul t was that Grabhorns printed

books on handmade paper because they couldn't get machine made.

But a t any ra te they many times would get not handmade

but a good rag paper remainder. So whenever we were printing,

we were careful t o pick a paper tha t they had a l o t of.

Teiser: Have you ever done any books for sale?

SG: Yes. I don't know whether you know who Paul Bennett was. He

was The Typophiles, rea l ly , the secretary. And he saw one of

our commonplace books, the second one, and asked i f we would

do one fo r The Typophiles, so we did. And tha t consisted of

our printing 350 for them, and they suggested, and we were

quick t o take it up, tha t we print another 150 and s e l l them

ourselves . So we did.

Teiser : When did you print your f i r s t commonplace book, and how did you

happen t o start those?

SG: I think it was '55. I '11 date it fo r sure. B u t Bob showed me

a book published by a man who went by the name of H a r r i s of

Paris and who early i n the t h i r t i e s or l a t e i n the twenties had

SG: done a commonplace book, a typographical one. Monroe Thorington

was the man who actually did it, and it just knocked me out. It

looked l i k e so much fun that I immediately said, "By God, we'll

t r y it." And you know, it's l i k e Adrian Wilson with h i s Nurem-

burg [Chronicle]--you get hooked on something l ike that and

you can 't l e t go.

Teiser: They are selections you have read and liked, i s tha t r ight?

SG: Yes. You know the origin of the phrase "commonplace book" is,

well, say in the seventeenth century. Your country gentleman

who was out of touch except for h i s reading and h i s newspapers

would excerpt t h i s or tha t quotation from a gazette or whatever

and put them in one common place. And as f a r as I know that ' s

the origin, a t leas t t h a t ' s how the Oxford [ ~ e w English Diction-

ary] Inore o r l e s s defines it.

Teiser: So have you done one a year since then?

SG: No, but I 've done more than I should have, I guess. I had

figured t h i s is the end some yews ago, and then t h i s friend of

mine, J i m Hammond, said, 'ket 's do a commonplace book. " He 'd

bought the other ones. So we star ted in. And I said okay as

long as time is not the essence, because t h i s I printed here

(as you know I t ravel .a l o t ) , so it took rea l ly about two or

three years t o f inish it. And I didn't even bind it. We had

it bound in San Francisco. I printed the side paper and they

went on from there. But tha t was actually for sale.

Teiser : The e a r l i e r ones had a l l been hard-bound, too, had they not.?

SG: Yes.

Teiser: How many have you done, then?

SG: Five.

Teiser : Were they printed a t Christmas?

SG: The first th ree were, and then the one f o r The Typphi les was

printed f o r New York. He gave us a l o t of leeway. And then

t h i s l a s t one was just fo r sale . We used the Book Club l i s t ,

and my word, t h a t ' s a very successful l i s t , i s n ' t it? It pul ls .

Well, you know, someone l i k e Lane of Sunset, they pu l l I think

3 o r 4 per cent on t h e i r re turns and they think i t ' s a success.

And I think the Book Club--we did two hundred over, but t h e i r

l i s t accounted fo r jus t about two hundred. Their l i s t i s only

about 950, I think, so t h a t ' s a f an t a s t i c re turn.

Teiser: And tha t was finished when?

SG: A year ago. '69.

Teiser: Are you working on any now?

SG: No. We are going t o do a book f o r Lew [ ~ e w i s l Osborne. *

Teiser: You did something fo r him, didn' t you?

SG: Yes. We designed and s e t up The Taming of the Shrew, and then

Gra,bhorn-Hoyem printed it . *

Lewis, Oscar, edi tor , The Li fe and Times of the Virginia

Ci ty Te r r i t o r i a l Enterprise ,Ashland, Oregon : Lewis Osborne,

1 g n .

Teiser: You did the typesett ing?

SG: Yes.

Teiser : Hand-set ?

SG: Yes. Trina s e t t h a t whole thing.

Teiser : You have type here?

SG: Oh yes.

Teiser : You have enough type here t o s e t a whole book?

SG: Well, we had t o make about f ive t r i p s , but we had enough t o

s e t about 16 pages, and tha t ' s a big book.

KG: Never again.

SG: Well, when Trina says, "ever again," i t 's because the lugging

it up there and then t h e i r pr int ing it and then lugging it back

and d is t r ibu t ing i t - - that was kind of miserable. But it was

quite an a t t r ac t ive book, I thought.

KG: O u r press wasn't working.

SG: Our press would -work, but I r e a l l y didn ' t have the time, because

t h a t ' s qu i te a project. But t h i s book we're going t o do f o r

Lew t h i s spring is 56 pages t o t a l , t h a t ' s counting end sheets.

Teiser : What is i t ?

SG: It 's an a r t i c l e o r a se r ies of a r t i c l e s on the demise of t he

Te r r i t o r i a l Enterprise ; de Qui l le and all of these people wrote

a r t i c l e s t ha t appeared i n the Examiner of about 1880 or '90 and

tha t evidently have been overlooked. And Oscar Lewis, whom I ' m

sure you know, dug it up, and now Lew is going t o publish it,

and t h i s time we ' re going to s e t it up and pr in t here, because

SG: as you probably know I have a press j u s t l i k e one of the ones

a t the Grabhorn-Hoyem, the Victoria, t he 13 by 19, which i s a

platen press. And without going in to the merits of cylinder

head and platen, i t ' s fo r my purposes idea l . '%'urther he

s a i th not, tt because everybody has h i s own opinion on tha t .

I think i t ' s going t o be fun. I want t o do it i n Garamond,

t h a t is, foundry Garamond, which I think is a . . .Well, again,

everybody wants t he universal type, and I don't think there is

such a thing, but i f you were confined t o one type, I believe

t h a t you could do a l o t worse than have nothing but Garamond.

If I can get some more, and I ' m going t o New York--we

always i n m y business go t o M e w York twice a year fo r sales

meetings, and I always go over t o Bauer Type, and t h i s time

I ' m going t o go t o ATF and see if they w i l l possibly s e l l me a

weight font of Garamond. I don't know whether it can be done.

Teiser: What i s a weight fon t?

SG: Well, normally they have what they c a l l job fonts ; i t ' s a

package, roughly two or th ree pounds of caps and two o r three

pounds of lower case, and i t ' s f o r s e t t i ng up a job, meaning

an announcement o r something l i k e t h a t . But a weight font would

run a r b i t r a r i l y 20, 40, 60 pounds on t h e scheme. Now, you know

what a scheme i s , more o r l e s s?

Teiser: Yes.

SG: So t h a t you can s e t an appreciable amount of type.

Teiser: I see.

SG: You see, we have one new lower case f u l l of Garamond, but i t ' s

rather painful t o acquire, because foundry type is expensive.

But i f they can do it, I'll get enough t o do it anyway. But

you see, technically i f you're going t o pr int eight pages you

only need se t up f ive, because you can print the inside form

f i r s t , and then go on from there. But it means the type's

going t o be se t and rese t pret ty often, and I ' d prefer t o be

able t o do, say, nine pages, pr int eight a t a crack. O r , i f

possible, t o have a l i t t l e over twelve and then use bigger signa-

tures , because tha t ' s kind of a problem. The more signatures

adds t o the binding cost.

Teiser: What page size are you thinking of for the Osborne book?

SG: About s ix and a half by ten. I n the f i r s t place, I ' m a believer

i n margins, and you have t o go up pre t ty well.

Teiser: W i l l there be , cuts too in t h i s ?

SG: Yes. Line cuts. More or l e s s they ' l l be contemporary o r just

about 1890, I would say. Usually those were wood blocks, but

we w i l l use them as zinc s, zinc l i n e cuts .

Teiser :

SG:

Teiser :

SG:

Teiser :

SG:

Teiser :

SG:

Teiser :

SG:

Teiser :

SG:

Teiser :

HAND ASSOCIATES

You l e f t the Grabhorn Press when?

1962. That date I can remember.

And then what did you start doing?

Went i n with Gordon White and Richard Sybenga. The three of

us became Hand Associates, publishers ' representatives. How do you spel l Sybenga?

S-y-b-e-n-$-a. That's Dutch. I used t o wonder about that

name. H i s fa ther was a Frisian Islander. A t any ra te , we

represented a t tha t time Lane outside of California, Arizona,

Nevada. And publishers ' represent a t ives is almost a euphemism

for a commission agent.

So it keeps you traveling.

Yes, because we represent the publishers i n the eleven Western

s ta tes , and tha t ' s quite a t e r r i t o r y t o get around.

What publishers do you represent now?

Well, basically, the University of California Press, Hastings

House, n m i n San Francisco we're Scrimshaw Press. Have you

seen the i r work?

Yes, just now.

That Delta West i s r ea l ly a t e r r i f i c book, i sn ' t it?

Yes.

SG: And then we're Bellerophon; t h a t ' s a San Francisco company.

I'll show you what they do.

Teiser: How do you spe l l Bellerophon?

SG: All I know is he's the poet who rode Pegasus--B-e-1-1-e-r-o-

p-h-o-n, I think. I 'm constantly saying Pegasus rode

Bellerophon, but a t any r a t e , i t ' s a couple of graduate

anthropologists who are i n t he publishing business, and they've

been unearthing these qu i te authentic i l l u s t r a t i ons from various *

periods: Greek, Medieval, Shakespeare. They're coloring books.

Teiser: These are f o r kids?

SG: Well, .we .are s e l l i ng them, and yet I can't say yes o r no, . .

because college book s tores carry them, a good many of them,

and museum bookstores.

And then we're representing Capricorn Press. I have t o

emphasize Press, because Capricorn Books is a big paperback

house . Teiser: Where i s Capricorn Press?

SG: Santa Barbara. And t h a t book r igh t by you--it's comparable t o

or a t l e a s t i s i n the f i e l d of The Greening of America. I t ' s

t rying t o , without taking a stand, explain what i s occurring.

I n t h i s case, t he man's bel ief i s tha t you have the Establish-

ment and the Movement, the Movement being the young.

Teiser: The t i t l e is EST, and the author is L. Clark Stevens.

Capricorn Press, 705 Anacapa Street i n Santa Barbara.

SG: A t any ra t e , we're representing some small presses, and then

as you can see, naturally I forget some, but Winchester A r m s

are now i n the publishing business, and they put out quite a

few books. We represent them.

Teiser : Who are they?

SG: Winchester Firearms, repeating firearms. That 's a division

of Olin . Teiser: What are they publishing?

SG: Books, as you might guess, on firearms and hunting, some hunt-

ing pr in ts and t ha t sort of thing.

BOOK PUBLISHING I N CALIFORNIA

Teiser: For a l i t t l e over a year I 've been doing these kind of catch-

a l l pieces for the Chronicle, and I don't know whether I ' m

more aware of s m a l l publishers, or i f actual ly there i s a

great springing up of small publishers i n the West, i n C a l i -

fornia .

SG: I think you're r i gh t t h a t there i s qui te a resurgence o r

burgeoning of small publishers, because i t 's par t of the Move-

ment. Most of them, as you know, are young, and each one of

them f e e l s t h a t they have something t h a t they want t o bring t o

the l i g h t of day.

Teiser: Do you see any rela t ionship between it and pr int ing techniques

o r equipment --availabil i ty of new techniques o r more equipment

i n the West, or anything of t h a t so r t ?

SG: No, I don 't think so. That one [~ap r i co rn press 1, f o r example,

Noel Young, the proprietor, is basical ly a pr in te r . Graham

Macintosh is i n with him. Now t h a t is le t te rpress .

Teiser: He actual ly does the production?

SG: Yes. He has some Linotypes, some platens, Heidelberg platens,

so t h a t he can pr in t . Eventually it is my be l ie f t h a t he w i l l

be producing those i n considerable quantity, on the order of

SG:

Teiser :

SG:

Teiser :

SG:

Teiser :

SG:

Teiser :

SG:

Teiser :

SG:

Teiser :

SG:

Teiser :

SG:

Teiser :

upwards of 30,000.

EST, you mean?-Yes.

Who does the binding o f t h a t l a rge an edi t ion?

There's an o u t f i t i n Santa Barbara t h a t does it. I don't know

t h e i r name.

And he can get it done cheap enough?

Yes. O f course one of t he reasons he can is t h a t he i s not only

publisher but he i s also the pr in te r , and t h a t eliminates one

middleman.

Well, he could e i ther make money o r go broke t h a t way.

Yes, but t he f ac t is t h a t it i s not h i s sole means of l i v e l i -

hood, because he does produce announcements, broadsides, what-

ever, fo r various people in Santa Barbara t h a t want something

a l i t t l e bet ter .

We just a s of t h i s past Monday became associated with them.

What does t h i s [EST]s e l l f o r?

$1-95

That s p re t ty good, i s n ' t it?

Yes. I think it 's qui te a package, because it's a good job.

Did he do the cover too?

O f course he undoubtedly had a zinc made, o r whatever, but he

is a printer-designer.

Do you think ten years ago t h a t well-made a l i t t l e book would

have come from Santa Barbara?

SG: No. 1 ' m sure not. But I have a fee l ing t h a t t h i s f i e l d i s

something where commercial pr int ing has come more and more in to

t he photolithography f i e ld . A t the same time there 's been qui te

a r e a l i n t e r e s t in , well, c a l l it the private press movement, so

t ha t people a r e interested i n ge t t ing some type and doing some

printing. I f e e l t h a t many times people start t o p r in t because

they wish they were artists but they know they a re not, and yet

with type you can sometimes a t l ea s t express yourself semi-

a r t i s t i c a l l y . And there are a l o t of people l i k e t ha t . That's

one of the reasons these publishing ventures a r e coming out now,

t ha t there is more i n t e r e s t i n design a s such. I don't know

whether t ha t answers your question o r not.

Teiser: Yes. Well, all these are current things t h a t are happening

tha t I keep t ry ing t o keep up with. People send me a l l kinds

of publications they are proud of , often poorly printed. And

they go on sometimes and have be t te r pr int ing done o r e l s e

f ind t h a t good pr int ing is expensive, and so they get them-

selves a l i t t l e Mult i l i th and do t h e i r own printing. I don't

know where it '11 end.

SG: Well, I don't know where it w i l l end, but I don't think it w i l l

cease, a t any r a t e , because there a re so many s t i m u l i so widely

d i f fe ren t ia ted a s say, William Everson, Brother Antoninus.

Now he has t o have influenced a great many pebple--made some

poets more aware of the printed page a s a piece of design

ra ther than j u s t a meansfor t h e i r poetry t o be read.

Teiser: I think Hoyem probably too, and Haselwood.

SG: Dave Haselwood, yes. Now there ' s t h e Unicorn Press i n Santa

Barbara. They have done and are doing a tremendous m u n t of

poetry. I n fac t , I think t h a t i s jus t about all they are doing

i s pr int ing poetry. And of course, as we a l l know, f o r the

f i r s t time i n recorded his tory, poetry s e l l s . And t h i s i s an-

other par t , I think, of the Movement, t h a t poetry, t o use a

phrase, i s not as l inear a s we of the Establishment o r semi-

Establishment l i k e t o think of it.

F'UNC'I'IONS OF A PUBLISHER'S REZRESEBTATIVE

Teiser: I n Hand Associates your function is t o go d i r ec t ly t o the book-

s tores?

SG: Yes. We c a l l on bookstores some, of course, and jobbers,

wholesalers . Teiser: Are people buying more books i n general? Is there any trend

i n book buying?

SG: Well, I don't see it slackening, and natural ly we're more than

just i d l y curious when we go around. You always ask how it has

been, and almost a l l of t he people say they are ahead of l a s t

year, and t h a t is v i t a l , of course. There are a few exceptions,

such a s Eugene, t h a t ' s a lumber town, and the slump i n the

building industry has affected tha t . And t h i s spring Sea t t l e

was r e a l l y hard h i t by Boeing lay-offs. And yet Gordon White,

one of the partners, was up again t h i s f a l l , and said things

were qu i te beamish again. I go a long way--my longest t r i p is

from here up t o Salem, making stops a l l the way along, and then

I s t a r t eas t , going up t o Spokane, and then through Montana,

and then down through Idaho, and everybody is cheerful.

Teiser: How does it happen t h a t you go t o New York twice a year?

SG: Well, you know, almost a l l publishers have a spring l i s t and

SG: a f a l l l i s t , and they want t o brainwash you, you know: "Now

t h i s i s why t h i s book i s the greates t book since t h e ~ i b l e . "

And you're supposed t o nod and nod and nod, but then when you

go in to the s tore and you say, his is the greates t book since

the Bible, 11 they don't nod. C ~ a u ~ h t e rBut it 's an idea they 1

hope t o get across. They have a meeting t h a t takes four hours,

and the whole thing could be done i n about an hour and a ha l f ,

and I think done well. But even though they waste time it i s

worth it, because you see the i l l u s t r a t i o n s and get a l i t t l e

b i t of the s tory and hear l ies , and some of t he biggest l i e s are

about when you're going t o get the material , so t h a t i t ' s a big

help t o have seen it. Because as long as you are reasonably

trustworthy, you can say, 'wel l , t h i s book looks as though it

w i l l do pre t ty well. 11 And the buyers w i l l l i s t e n t o you and

perhaps go along a l i t t l e way. But you had be t te r be sure. I f

you s t a r t recommending ca t s and dogs, they are not going t o l e t

you i n the s tore a f t e r a whi le . And also, i t ' s fool ish, because

the books are going t o haunt you. You're coming back in s i x

months, and i f t he books are s t i l l up on the shelf , i t 's p re t ty

much inevitable how it w i l l end.

DIVISION OF LABOR AT THE GRACE HOPER PRESS

Teiser : Let me go back t o one more question on the Grace Hoper Press.

KG:

Teiser:

KG:

SG:

KG:

Teiser :

SG:

Are you i n general the pr inter and Mrs. Grover the typesetter,

or do you se t type also?

I do the long hauls. I set the Shakespeare, and for instance

I se t the Grabhornst Two Years Before the Mast. That was the

longest haul I ever saw.

But i n general, you se t the type?

I help around. I do the folding.

Well, now she's r ea l ly denigrating herself . She is also a

t e r r i f i c proofreader, and -tha t is v i t a l , and a very, very good

editor. I never write a l e t t e r without having her edi t it.

But I dis tr ibute the type, and then sometimes [establish] the

s tyle .

He does the design.

And the presswork?

Yes.

Transcriber: Betty Dubravac Final Typist: Beverly Heinrichs

INDEX -- Katharine and Sherwood Grover

Allen, Lewis, 38, 39, 63 American Trust Co., 24, 30 American West [publishing company], 10 Anderson, Gregg, 44 Angelo, Valenti, 45, 46 Antoninus, Brother, see Everson, William

Bancroft, Hubert Howe, 20 Bancroft Library, 20 Bellerophon [press], 80 Bennett, Paul, 73 "Black Mack", see McDonald, Tom Bloomfield, Dr., 17 Book Club of California, 54, 56, 65, 71, 75 Butterfield's, 15

Capricorn Press, 80, 82 Carruth,..Katharine [Grover, Mrs. Sherwood], 2 Carruth, William Herbert, 2, 70 Cashmaker, Jack, 18, 19 Chronicle, (San -Francisco Chronicle), 67, 82 Colt Press, 6, 7, 39, 73 commonplace books, 73, 74, 75

Dean, Mallette, 18, 53 Dos Passos, John, 68, 69 Dressler, Albert, 18

Everson, William (Brother Antoninus), 84

Gannon, John, 44 Gentry, Helen, 44 Goodhue Printing Co., 3, 31, 32, 41 Goudy [Frederic], 46 Grace Hoper Press, 67, 68, 72-78, 88 Grabhorn, Bob [Robert], 5, 12, 13, 14, 25, 26, 29, 44, 47, 48, 52, 53, 60,

61, 62, 63, 64, 68, 69, 70, 72

Grabhorn, Ed [Edwin], 5 , 6 , 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 38, 46, 47, 48, 50, 51, 52, 53, 55, 63, 70, 72

Grabhorn, J ane , 5 , 6 , 7 , 12, 15, 16, 26, 29, 39, 47, 48, 53, 60, 61, 62, 68, 71, 72, 73

Grabhorn, Mar jor ie , 12, 17, 24 Grabhorn, Mary, 14 Grabhorn P res s , 3 , 4 , 7, 21, 22, 32, 33, 38, 39, 42, 44, 45, 57, 58, 60, 69, 79 Grabhorn-Hoyem, 30, 56, 75, 77 Graf f , E v e r e t t , 22 Grover, Katharine (Tr ina) , passim Grover, Sherwood ( B i l l ) , passim

Hammond, Jim,. 62, 63, 74 Hand Associates:; 58, 59, 79, 86 Harding, George, 16, 17 Harris, C a r r o l l , 30, 52, 65 Harroun, Catherine, 12, 38 H a r t , James D . , 35, 44, 45, 47 Harte, Bre t , 52 Ha selwood , Dave, 85 H e l l e r , E l i n o r , 7 Hergesheimer, Joseph, 23 Hewitt , Tom, 34, 35, 36, 69 Holman, W i l l i a m , 63 Hoyem, Andy (Andrew), 29, 63, 64, 85 Huntington L ib ra ry , 21

Japanese p r i n t books, 55 J e f f e r s , Robinson, 12

Kennedy, Alf red Brooks, 3 Kennedy, Alfred Leonard, 3 , 39, 49 Kennedy, Ben, 3 , 5 Kennedy, Lawton, 3 , 38, 39, 40, 42, 49, 50 Kennedy, Reuel, 3 Knight, Emerson, 20 Knight, [William H.] , 20

Lane [publ i sh ing company], 79 Lewis, Oscar , 75, 76 L i l i e n t h a l , Ted [Theodore], 15, 16, 65 Liv ings ton , Leon, Agency, 24, 28

Macintosh, Graham, 82 Mackenzie & H a r r i s , 44 Magee, David, 7 , 10, 65 Magee, Dorothy, 10 McClelland, John, 55 McDonald, (of Standard O i l ) , 45 McDonald, Tom, 44, 45

-.Meyers, William H . , 56 i Mitche l l , Bob, 41 , Murnick, Duff [D.R.], 40, 41, 42

Nash, John Henry, 44 Nol l , Lorenz, 18

Osborne, Lewis, 75, 76

Paper , p r i n t i n g , 53, 72, 73 P r i n t i n g p re s ses ( i n gene ra l ) , 38-40

Albion, 45 C o l t ' s Armory, 36 Laurea te , 36, 38, 40 V i c t o r i a , 38, 77

P f e i f f e r , George, 10, 53 Pol lock , Gus, 15, 16

Rainey, J o e , 18 , 19 Random House, 56 Ransohof f , J i m , 52 Robertson, D r . John W. , 24 Rogers, Bruce, 46 Roosevelt [F rank l in D .] , 56 Roth, B i l l [William M.], 7 , 33 Roxburghe Club, 63, 64, 65, 66 Rudolphi, A lbe r t a , 29, 30

San Franc isco Publ ic L ib ra ry , 63 Schroeder ' s Res taurant , 65 Scrimshaw P r e s s , 79 Shad, Robert , 21 S i e r r a Club [books] , 39 Standard O i l Co., 24 S tanford [Univers i ty P r e s s ] , 44, 45

Stauffacher, Jack, 46 Stevens, L. Clark, 80 Streeter, Thomas, 22 Sunset [books], 39, 75 Swinerton, Jane, 7 Sybenga, Richard, 58, 59, 79

Taylor & Taylor, 36, 37, 54 Thorington, Monroe, 74 "Three-fingered Jack1', see Noll, Lorenz Types

Bauer, 77 Bauer-Bodoni, 29 Deeptone Text, 30 Friar, 29 Garamond, 53, 77, 78 Goudy, 29 Goudy Antique, 30 Janson, 30 Lutetia, 30 New Style, 30

Typophiles, The, 60, 61, 73, 75

University of California Press, 79 University of Oklahoma [Press], 10 Unicorn Press, 85

Veblen, Thorstein, 69

Wagner, Henry R., 22 Waters, George, 40, 56 Wheat, Carl, 54 White, Gordon, 79 Wilson, Adrian, 46, 74 Winchester Arms [books], 81

Young, Noel, 82

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BOOKS MENTIONED I N THE INTERVIEW

Aesop's Fables , 23 An Fragment Unpublished b~ The Jumbo Pres s , 72

Bibliography of the Grabhorn P res s , 1915-1940, 7, 10 Bibliography of the Grabhorn P r e s s , 1940-1956, 10 B i t t e r Drink, The, -- 69

Commonplace -- 61,Book f o r Typophiles, A, 75 Compleat Jane Grabhorn, The, 71

Del ta West 79--5

EST, 80, 83

Fine P r i n t e r s of t he San Francisco Bay Area, James D. Hart , 35 Finnegans Wake, 68

Greening of America, The, 80

Hundredth -Book, 54

Leaves of Grass , 23 L i f e Among the Indians o r t he Cap t iv i ty of -- 11-- the Oatman G i r l s , L i f e and Times of the Virg in ia C i ty T e r r i t o r i a l ~ n t e r ~ r i s c 75,----- -The, 76 Luck of Roaring Camp, The, 52

Man wi th the Watch i n h i s Hand 68-------,Map of the C a l i f o r n i a Gold Region, 1848-1857, 54 Mapping the Trans-Mississippi West, 54

Naval Sketches, 56

Omai, 73

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Rhoenixiana, 11, 12 P r i n t i n g -- Performing - 38a s a A r t ,

Santa Fe T r a i l , The, 55 Sketches -of C a l i f o r n i a & Hawaii, 56 S o l s t i c e , 12

Tamin of t h e Shrew -The, 752---,Thirty-seven Days of P e r i l , 45 Three Evening Prayers [Jane Austen] , 73 -Tom Sawyer, 20, 22 Two Years Before the Mast, 10, 11, 48, 88

Wah-To-Yah, 10, 11, 53

Ruth T e i s e r

Grew up i n Po r t l and , Oregon; came t o t h e Bay Area i n 1932 and has l i v e d h e r e eve r s ince . S tanford , B.A., M.A. i n Engl i sh , f u r t h e r graduate work i n Western h i s t o r y . Newspaper and magazine writer i n San Francisco s i n c e 1943, w r i t i n g on l o c a l h i s t o r y and economic and bus iness l i f e of t h e Bay Area. Book reviewer f o r t h e San Francisco Chronicle s i n c e 1943. A s correspondent f o r n a t i o n a l and western graphic a r t s magazines f o r more than a decade, came t o know t h e p r i n t i n g conrmuni t y .