transcript: 3rd public hearing of the senate blue ribbon committee on the $81-m money laundering...

8/18/2019 TRANSCRIPT: 3rd Public Hearing of the Senate Blue Ribbon Committee on the $81-M Money Laundering Case

1/302


2/302

COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERSAND INVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)Tuesday, March 29, 2016Page 2

GUESTS/RESOURCE PERSONS:

Hon. Nestor A. Espenilla Jr. - Officer in Charge, Bangko Sentralng Pilipinas (BSP)

Atty. Emmanuel F. Dooc - Member, Anti-Money LaunderingCouncil (AMLC)

Ms. Julia Bacay-Abad - Executive Director, AMLC SecretariatMr. Eugene Manalastas - Chief Operating Officer, Philippine

Amusement and GamingCorporation (Pagcor)

Mr. Manuel Huberto B. Gaite - Commissioner, Securities andExchange Commission (SEC)

Mr. Lorenzo V. Tan - President and Chief ExecutiveOfficer, Rizal Commercial BankingCorporation (RCBC)

Atty. Ma. Celia Fernandez-Estavillo- Head, Legal and Regulatory AffairsGroup, RCBC

Mr. Raul Victor Tan - RCBCMr. Reymart A. Marbella - RCBCMr. Romualdo S. Agarrado - RCBC

Mr. Nelson V. Tan - President and CEO, BDO Unibank, Inc.Atty. Alvin Go - Chief Legal Counsel, BDO Unibank, Inc.Ms. Rebecca Torres - Chief, Compliance Office, BDO

Unibank, Inc.Atty. Reynaldo Maclang - President, Philippine National Bank (PNB)Mr. Emmanuel Gomez - Branch Manager, PNBMs. Salud Bautista - President, Philrem Service Corp.Mr. Michael Bautista - PhilremMr. Kam Sin Wong a.k.a. Kim Wong - Eastern Hawaii Leisure Company Ltd.Mr. William So Go - Centurytex Trading

Atty. Silverio Benny Tan - Corporate Secretary, Solaire Resortand CasinoAtty. Jomini Nazareno - External Counsel, Romulo Law OfficesMs. Angela Ruth S. Torres - Former Customer Relations Officer

RCBC-Jupiter BranchAtty. Rene Saguisag - Former Senator; Counsel for Ms. Maia

Santos-Deguito

2


3/302


SENATORS’ STAFF

Atty. Nicholai Noel Lazaro - O/S GuingonaMs. Judith Lee - O/S GuingonaMr. Dante Xenon Atienza - O/S GuingonaMs. Giselle Anne Campos - O/S GuingonaG.H. Ambat - O/S GuingonaMs. Khristine Joy E. Pulumbarit - O/S GuingonaMr. Alemar I. Mosquito - O/S RectoMr. Joseph Irvin Obenza - O/S RectoMs. Michel Palma - O/S Recto

Ms. Kristel Castronuevo - O/S RectoMs. Rikka Sotto - O/S RectoMs. Mini Dumalaog - O/S A. CayetanoMs. Liselle Lucas - O/S A. CayetanoMr. Nyl Mendoza - O/S EnrileMr. Doni Capuyan - O/S OsmeñaMs. Vina Panes - O/S OsmeñaMr. Claro Sampaga - O/S OsmeñaMs. Kathreena Tam - O/S OsmeñaMr. Arnyl Madayag - O/S Osmeña

Ms. Judith Mijares - O/S OsmeñaAtty. Alain Baguisi - O/S AngaraMs. Margie Manlunas - O/S AngaraMs. Hazel Villarba - O/S AngaraMr. Shielo Reyes - O/S AngaraAtty. Lutgardo Barbo - O/S PimentelAtty. Valery Joy Brion - O/S PimentelAtty. Maria Patricia Rebaño - O/S PimentelAtty. Dona Paula Mendiola - O/S PimentelAtty. Catherine Manahan - O/S Pimentel

Atty. Harold Ian Bartolome - O/S PimentelAtty. Daniel Solomon - O/S PimentelMr. Ryan Martin Macalatan - O/S PimentelMs. Ma. Clarissa Lopez - O/S BinayMr. Ricardo Calimag - O/S BinayAtty. Czarina Dee - O/S SottoAtty. Sheela Millera - O/S SottoAtty. Hector Villacorta - O/S SottoMs. Cecile Palines - O/S AquinoMs. Joan Narvaez - O/S EjercitoMs. Sheryl Vargas - O/S EjercitoMs. Ayn D. Nepomuceno - O/S EjercitoMr. Dominic Lacbayo - O/S Legarda

3


4/302


SENATE SECRETARIAT:

Atty. Agapito Rene S. Conchu - Director III, Assessment andMonitoring Service, Blue RibbonOversight Office Management(BROOM)

Atty. Sarah Lou Arriola - Director III, Investigation Service,BROOM

Ms. Josephine DG Herrera - Director II, Investigation Service,BROOM

Atty. Fritzie Jane Aduna - Staff, BROOM

Ms. Divina Gracia Ramos - - do –Ms. Remedios Amor Abagon - - do –Mr. Eustaquio Pacapac - - do –Mr. Leonardo Ramirez - - do –Ms. Anna Leah C. Catimbang - Committee StenographerMs. Maribel P. Mendoza - - do –Ms. Jeanne M. Baisa - - do –Ms. Jo B. Cadaing - - do –Ms. Rosemarie J. Ortiz - - do –Ms. Cindell B. Gealan - - do –

Ms. Helen S. Gayapa - - do –Ms. Merlene J. Palaganas - - do –Ms. Nida A. Mancol - - do –Ms. Sherill M. Villadiego - - do –Mr. Rommel P. Alger - - do –Ms. Cecilia T. Sotto - - do –Ms. Christine M. Nery - - do –Mr. Ronnie Cabañero - Legislative PageMr. Menardo T. Bago - - do –Ms. Amity Caragay - - do –

Ms. Laarni Vidal - - do –Ms. Abigael Olson - - do –Mr. Reginald Mendoza - - do –Mr. Eric Jalandoon - - do -

(For complete list, please see attached Attendance Sheet.)

4


5/302

COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS ANDINVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)Aliccatimbang I-1 March 29, 2016 11:43 a.m. 1

AT 11:43 A.M., HON. TEOFISTO L. GUINGONA III,CHAIRMAN OF THE COMMITTEE, CALLED THE HEARINGTO ORDER.

THE CHAIRMAN. This hearing of the Senate Blue Ribbon is

hereby called to order.

Good morning everyone. I understand we have some new

resource persons. Let’s get through with the administrative

requirements.

But first off, let me acknowledge the presence of the Senate

Minority Floor Leader, Senator Juan Ponce Enrile--good morning, sir;

Senator Tito Sotto--good morning, sir; Senator Serge Osmeña, the

Chairman of the Committee on Banks--good morning, sir; Senator JV

Ejercito--good morning, sir; Senator Bam Aquino--good morning, sir;

Senator Koko Pimentel--good morning, sir; Senator Ralph Recto--good

morning, sir.

We have some resource persons who are new. I would like the

comsec to administer the oath. Comsec.

MR. CONCHU. Could we request all the guests who are

appearing for the first time to take their oath, please?

Please raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the

truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth in this investigation?

5


6/302


Please say it. [The resource persons who took their oath are Ms.

Nepomuceno, Mr. Marbella, Mr. Agarrado, Mr. Valerio, Ms. Ratcliffe,

Mr. Wong and Ms. A. Torres. All responded in the affirmative.]

Thank you. Please take your seats.

THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Thank you.

We will start with the Chairman of the Committee on Banks.

Senator Osmeña, I think you have some questions.

SEN. OSMEÑA. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning everybody. We understand that Ms. Deguito is

not here today. And that former senator Rene Saguisag would like to

make a statement on her behalf.

But can we just make it short, Mr. Senator? Would you like to

just tell us why Ms. Deguito is not here and when she will be able to

appear? Can you hear me well, Rene?

MR. SAGUISAG. Kagalang-galang na Tagapangulo at mga

kasapi ng Lupon ng Lasong Bughaw, magandang umaga po. Kahapon

po ako ay nagpahatid ng isang liham na nagsasaad kung bakit ako

nandirito, napakiusapan over the weekend ng counsel of record, Ferdie

Topacio at kasama niya, na tumayo ngayon dahil out of the country to

discharge a commitment made earlier. They are just asking kung

6


7/302


maaaring a weeklong respite and then they are ready to continue

cooperating as they have done before.

SEN. OSMEÑA. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Senator.

MR. SAGUISAG. And so I need not read this dahil nakakabit na

sa ating record.

SEN. OSMEÑA. No longer but we did read it and we would like

to thank you. I think the Committee would be willing to allow Ms.

Deguito that respite. But it’s not a weeklong respite. It’s a two

weeklong respite kasi isama mo na iyong Holy Week. Our last hearing

was on March 17. So if you will guarantee that she will be here the

next hearing…

MR. SAGUISAG. Kung mapauunlakan at mapagbibigyan po

kami, we’ll be more grateful than we can say. So itutuloy po namin

ang pagtulong sa Lupon to get the facts and relevant matters. So

makakarating po iyan sa mga kasama kong manananggol na siyang

counsel of record ni Maia Deguito.

SEN. OSMEÑA. All right. I’ll leave it that to my colleagues.

THE CHAIRMAN. I think we could grant that so that after next

week then we can expect Ms. Deguito to appear.

Okay. Our next hearing is Tuesday, next week.

MR. SAGUISAG. Maraming salamat po.

7


8/302


9/302


brought up again the fact that the Bank Secrecy Law protects the

integrity of the individual accounts. Correct?

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Yes, there are several laws,

Your Honor, that cover the deposits.

SEN. OSMEÑA. Yes. Name those laws.

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. The General Banking Act, we

have the AMLA Act, there’s the Bank Secrecy Law and the FCDU Law.

There are four laws, Your Honor.

SEN. OSMEÑA. Now, that’s for an account owned by a person,

right? We understand that RCBC already has found out that those five

accounts including Picache’s don’t exist. Those persons don’t exist. So,

therefore, there is nothing to protect. There is nobody to protect.

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Your Honor, we have actually

consulted with our external counsel and the advice is, the wording of

the Bank Secrecy Law covers the deposit itself. So even if the account

holder, for example, would be fictitious, first, there has to be a court

order determining that. But even if, the bank secrecy still applies to

the deposits. We are very cooperative. We would like to discuss the

details. And we are actually sharing what information we have with

the AMLC and the BSP. But we are unable to discuss details of specific

deposits and accounts unless there is a…

9


10/302


11/302

COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS ANDINVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)MPMENDOZA II-1 March 29, 2016 11:53 a.m. 1

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. …There are specific cases, Your

Honor.

SEN. OSMEÑA. All right. So in this specific case, if we go into

executive session, you will be able to share those things with the

Committee?

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. No, Your Honor. We still have

our obligation in executive session.

SEN. OSMEÑA. So what’s the plus in going to executive session

for the Committee? Because we have to be transparent with the public

and all our hearings are open to the public.

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Yes, Your Honor. Your Honor,

we have done our best to be transparent to the extent that the law

allows us. But especially in cases of dollar accounts, only the written

consent of the depositor will allow us to divulge the information. We

are mindful of this … obligation.

SEN. OSMEÑA. Now, who is the depositor in this specific case?

Would the depositor be—who?

You want the consent of the depositor, the depositor does not

exist so whose consent do we get?

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Your Honor, even if we would

like to—we see the loophole in the law and we hope that with this

11


12/302


hearing, you will be able to address that loophole because we really

are unable to divulge despite the absurd situation.

SEN. OSMEÑA. Since these funds we agree were stolen from

the Bank of Bangladesh, would you not consider Bangladesh bank the

depositor?

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Your Honor, no. Under the law

that would not be the case and I don’t think that there is definitive

proof that would allow us.

SEN. OSMEÑA. So, therefore, you’re saying, Atty. Macel, if I

steal your money and I deposit it in an account, no one can look into

that account to determine whether it was Macel’s money or not? As to

amount, the date it was deposited, wala.

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. If it’s a peso account, Your

Honor, and there is a court case with respect to that amount, we can

discuss it in court.

SEN. OSMEÑA. Ano’ng court case? Wala pang court case;

investigation lang.

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. But in Senate hearing, sir, on

investigation the law does not allow us to speak about these deposits.

12


13/302


14/302


SEN. OSMEÑA. Teka muna. Pag hindi natuloy—if the notice

from New York had arrived earlier and the funds were not remitted out

of Jupiter into somebody else’s account, wouldn’t you, the bank, have

had the obligation to stop payment?

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. If there is a freeze order from a

court, Your Honor, yes.

SEN. OSMEÑA. No. Without a freeze order, don’t you use your

judgment and stop payment at any point?

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. In general, Your Honor, if it’s a

request for freeze, the best that banks could do under the current laws

would be to allow the parties, the person questioning the sending of

the funds and the account holder to speak. But the bank itself does

not have the right that it has under a freeze order. So we cannot

return the funds unilaterally in that case. That is what the law allows

us. We really just operate that way, Your Honor.

SEN. OSMEÑA. Hindi. Ano ang gagawin ng bangko, bangko

ninyo, dumating iyong hold order, you got a notice from the Bank of

Bangladesh, you got a notice from the Federal Reserve Bank of New

York? You know, I’d like to inform the body that we hacked a US

bank, not we, but the hackers hacked a US bank that is why it is now

14


15/302


federal crime and that’s why there has been bigger hullabaloo because

tinamaan ang New York.

So we would like to know from you what would you have done if

you had ample notice?

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. If we have ample notice, in any

case, the only rights that are given to us would be to file an STR, a

suspicious transaction report, and—

SEN. OSMEÑA. Pero itutuloy ninyo iyong remittance?

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. We can hold it for a period.

SEN. OSMEÑA. No, no, no. Tell me what you would do, don’t

tell me what you can do.

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Under the law, we have not

been given any right to retain the funds, Your Honor.

SEN. OSMEÑA. I am afraid many bankers would disagree with

you but I guess you’re arguing from your point of view.

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. No, Your Honor. It would be—

SEN. OSMEÑA. Ako ang bangko, somebody stole money from

Senator Bam’s account, say, one million pesos, then Bam tells me,

“That’s my money, can you stop payment? Do not make it go any

further.” If I were the bank, I would be obligated to stop payment. I

may not give the money back to Bam until he proves it’s his.

15


16/302


MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Yes.

SEN. OSMEÑA. But definitely, I would stop payment.

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. I understand the logic, Your

Honor. But unfortunately, the laws do not reflect the rights that you

are explaining. It would be—for example, if a supplier sold a tractor to

a buyer and—

SEN. OSMEÑA. If you have proof that there is legal transaction,

of course, you’ve got reason.

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. …If there is proof—

SEN. OSMEÑA. But if there is no legal transaction—I stole

Bam’s money and I was just transferring the money to somebody else

and I don’t have any legal transaction with that somebody, there is no

trade, there is no payment for services…


SEN. OSMEÑA. …you would have to question me first, “Teka

muna.”

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Yes. Then we would slow down

on the processing.

SEN. OSMEÑA. In the meantime you would have to stop

payment, right?


16


17/302


SEN. OSMEÑA. Okay.

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. We would slow down on the

processing and make the parties speak. But may I finish my example?

SEN. OSMEÑA. But you will stop payment?

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. We would slow down.

SEN. OSMEÑA. No. Don’t tell me slow down because I don’t

know what slow down …

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Effectively, it would have the

same effect.

SEN. OSMEÑA. …either this goes through or this does not go

through. Isang pindot lang iyan.

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Effectively, it would have the

same effect, Your Honor. But may I just go back to my example. If I

sold the tractor—

SEN. OSMEÑA. It will not have the same effect and you’re not

being very candid with the Committee.

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. I am very candid, Your Honor,

on this.

SEN. OSMEÑA. So what do you mean, you can stop it? You will

stop it, don’t you?

17


18/302


MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. For a temporary period only,

Your Honor, just to allow the parties to speak.

SEN. OSMEÑA. I don’t care if it’s temporary or permanent. But

you will stop it until you can do some confirmation?

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. No, Your Honor.

SEN. OSMEÑA. You won’t?

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. The laws do not allow us that

right. And I would like to finish my example.

SEN. OSMEÑA. I have talked to several bankers, top bankers,

and they said, “Yes, they would exercise their discretion and stop it.”

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Your Honor, perhaps you would

like to speak with others in this hearing but that is not our reading of

the law. And if I may just finish. If I sold a tractor to someone and

there is a payment order—

SEN. OSMEÑA. So RCBC is different?

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. No, Your Honor. All banks have

the same obligations and rights under the same laws.

SEN. OSMEÑA. But I did ask those banks. And they would stop.

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Then—

SEN. OSMEÑA. Teka muna, ninakaw iyong pera. It’s the

discretion of the bank president or whoever to stop.

18


19/302


MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. No, Your Honor.

SEN. OSMEÑA. So what is the use of the compliance situation?

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. That is why, Your Honor, it

would be good to amend the law to give more teeth to the banks.

SEN. OSMEÑA. You’re blaming us now.

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. No, sir, I am not.

Even the regulators do not have that authority, Your Honor. I

wish that it would be the case because it would make our jobs easier

and it would not put us in a position where there is logic in what you’re

saying and we cannot follow.

SEN. OSMEÑA. So you are telling the whole world that, “Send

your money to the Philippines because we cannot stop the transmittal.”

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. No, Your Honor. I am not—

SEN. OSMEÑA. It will go straight to the casino or to the

remittance company—to the casino.

All right. Now, I would like to ask also another question or go

off on a related to that. Every bank has a threshold amount by which it

is warned to examine the incoming deposit because it’s very

suspicious, right? In past hearings, wala kayong threshold account

amount.

19


20/302


MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Sir, if—actually that would be

the subject of our request for executive session. If that’s the

procedure, our operations head is here and he can discuss the details.

SEN. OSMEÑA. No. This is nothing secret. I mean, you either

have a threshold amount or you don’t and you have already—

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. We have a threshold amount.

Yes, Your Honor.

SEN. OSMEÑA. What is the threshold amount?

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. At that time, sir, it was ₱1

billion.

SEN. OSMEÑA. One billion pesos?

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Yes, Your Honor.

SEN. OSMEÑA. Or roughly $20 million?

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. More or less.

SEN. OSMEÑA. More or less. So if it was less than that, you

don’t go up to higher ups?

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Even with the threshold, Your

Honor, there is no requirement to elevate it to senior management. It

is still at the settlement’s department.

20


21/302


SEN. OSMEÑA. That’s very interesting. So $20 million, you

don’t elevate it to senior management. Let me—I want Mr. … Tan to

respond to my question.

Mr. Tan, continuing my line of questioning of Atty. Fernandez. At

what amount would you have been forewarned—should you have been

forewarned or alerted by your officers?

MR. L. TAN. As Atty. Fernandez mentioned, Your Honor, we

have a one billion threshold. …/mpm

21


22/302

COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS ANDINVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)JmBaisa III-1 March 29, 2016 12:03 p.m. 1

MR. L. TAN. …one billion threshold.

SEN. OSMEÑA. Pesos?

MR. L. TAN. Yes. And most CEOs don’t hear anymore about

these remittances. Like in the case of RCBC, we probably had 50

remittances of one billion or more the past three years and we don’t

hear about these remittances, you know, because most of the time we

are either in meetings or out of the country. We only hear about it

when there is a problem.

SEN. OSMEÑA. And like in this case, you didn’t hear about it,

so now you have a problem.

MR. L. TAN. Well, I found out when it became an issue.

SEN. OSMEÑA. Answer my question, you didn’t hear about it

and this became a problem. I thought compliance rules meant for you

to be adequately forewarned.

MR. L. TAN. No, sir. They raised the issue to me, but after the

funds had left already.

SEN. OSMEÑA. Yeah. But if you had gotten the issue raised

before the funds had left.

MR. L. TAN. I will still rely on the inputs from our Compliance

and our Legal Department on what we can do, sir.

22


23/302


SEN. OSMEÑA. That doesn’t answer my question. What would

you do, you will pass the decision to them?

MR. L. TAN. Well, we always base our decision, sir, based on

what we can do under the law and our existing policies.

SEN. OSMEÑA. Well, Atty. Fernandez just said that you would

not stop it because you are not allowed to stop it under the law.

MR. L. TAN. That’s right, sir.

SEN. OSMEÑA. All right. Would you have picked up the phone

and call the Central Bank governor instead and said, “I’ve got a

problem”?

MR. L. TAN. Well, under bank secrecy, our obligation, sir, is to

file the appropriate STR report and let the AMLC deal with the—

SEN. OSMEÑA. That means a few days delay. Like in this case,

it took you several days to file the suspicious transaction report.

MR. L. TAN. Under AMLC policy, sir, you are given 10 days to

submit the STR report and under regulation—

SEN. OSMEÑA. That’s right. And by that time, the money is

long gone as we saw.

MR. L. TAN. Yes, that’s the—

23


24/302


SEN. OSMEÑA. But I would like to know, based on the

practices of RCBC, at what point would you have been alarmed—at

what point would your officers have had to go up to the CEO and say,

“Boss, I think you really have to take a look at this”? What would that

amount be?

MR. L. TAN. Well, it’s probably when instincts kick in, sir. I

don’t think it’s the amount. They go to us for a business decision from

time to time, but—

SEN. OSMEÑA. In this case, Mr. Tan, you have four accounts—

dormant accounts, absolutely no economic activities: $6 million, $20

million, $25 million, $30 million, totaling $81 million, and they did not

go to you and say, “Chief, these four accounts, all dormant, suddenly

received this P1 billion average each.”

MR. L. TAN. No, sir, they did not go to me because—

SEN. OSMEÑA. Okay. Should they have gone to you?

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. No.

MR. L. TAN. Well, we have existing—

SEN. OSMEÑA. Ms. Macel.

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Sorry.

24


25/302


MR. L. TAN. We have existing policies on controls, Your Honor,

and as CEO, you assume that their responsibilities are being done.

SEN. OSMEÑA. All right. Now, supposing $100 million each

had been deposited into the account, they would have not gone to

you?

MR. L. TAN. I think in that case, they would have gone to me.

I mean, it’s like the difference between lending a 50-million clean loan

versus a billion clean loan. Instincts come in.

SEN. OSMEÑA. Ayan, so mayroon kang threshold amount. I

am trying to determine what’s the threshold amount, you said it’s

about $22 million. And so, if you had 100 anonymous fake accounts

and they each received $22 million or less, it doesn’t come to the

CEO’s attention?

MR. L. TAN. That’s why in my opinion, Your Honor, thresholds

can only give you protection at a certain point because people will find

out what your threshold is and then they will remit below that. I

mean, that happened when we started filtering OFW remittances. The

limit was 10,000, so some people were remitting 9,000, you know, 10

times or 40 times.

25


26/302


SEN. OSMEÑA. That’s right. But we are not talking about

$10,000 here.

MR. L. TAN. I think what will really catch dirty money would be

having intelligent systems in your bank, like what you have in global

banks today. I mean, even if you have modern software, you still

need instincts to kick in—your compliance people, your operations

people, your sales people—they all have to use their judgment.

SEN. OSMEÑA. You know, if all the other banks have threshold

amounts of $1 million, $2.5 million, maximum of $5 million, yours is at

$22 million, you are way out of line vis-à-vis your other peers from the

banking community.

MR. L. TAN. Your Honor, I think it depends on the size of your

bank. You know, our total assets as of yearend was P530 billion, so I

think one billion was a reasonable amount at that time. Now, because

of this experience—

SEN. OSMEÑA. Mr. Tan, the banks I talked to were all much

bigger than RCBC and they all have threshold amounts of that—one

million, 2.5 million.

MR. L. TAN. Well, again, Your Honor, it’s a balancing act. If

you lower the amount, commerce will be affected because some of

26


27/302


these remittances are meant to pay certain obligations. Like if you are

dealing with the capital market—

SEN. OSMEÑA. Only for RCBC? I mean, you were president of

the Bankers Association of the Philippines for two years, so surely you

knew exactly what the other banks also were doing, what their

thresholds...

MR. L. TAN. Unfortunatley, Your Honor, we don’t share notes

on thresholds and things like that. But some banks have similar

systems—

SEN. OSMEÑA. Would have the AMLA compliance been one of

your concerns as president of the Bankers Association of the

Philippines?

MR. L. TAN. Yes, sir. And I think RCBC was compliant with

AMLA policies. I think what happened here is some judgment error

from the people on the ground. I think if you look at our systems, we

have been applying six sigma principles in our processes. We have

foreign consultants that look at every process of the bank and we have

16 products that we sell to every consumer and every corporation.

Remittance is just one of 16, Your Honor. I mean, banks have a

thousand processes. If you decide to change the whole kitchen of a

27


28/302


bank, you have to go through 1,000 processes, and this is one of

them. I think what happened here is we had the IT controls, the

human controls. But unfortunately, it failed in the end, in the

execution.

SEN. OSMEÑA. And it would fail again because, as Atty.

Fernandez responded, she would not have stopped the transaction

from going through.

MR. L. TAN. We had made changes to our present system to

prevent this from happening again. And if you ask my opinion, Your

Honor—I mean, it can happen again. The Philippine banks have to

upgrade to cognitive systems. We have to look at our employee

behavior—what time they go in, what time they go out, what they do

outside. We have to look at transaction behavior. Only computers can

do that because if you have a bank and you envision to have 20

million, 40 million customers times “x” number of transactions per

second, there is no way you can have human intervention along the

way. You must combine the people and IT.

SEN. OSMEÑA. But the other banks have human intervention.

MR. L. TAN. Well, Your Honor, it’s like a Formula 1 race, right?

28


29/302


SEN. OSMEÑA. Not as a standard, but at a certain level, they

have human intervention. Like I said, the threshold amounts are $1

million. Now, since these banks are 10 times bigger than RCBC. Their

volume is much, much bigger.

MR. L. TAN. It’s a balancing cost-efficiency and speed, Your

Honor. I mean, in our business, you have to balance cost-efficiency,

speed and control, right? I mean, the global banks, they were hit with

Bernie Madoff—Four years, they were in the books of the largest US

bank, right?

SEN. OSMEÑA. Yes.

MR. L. TAN. Nick Leeson brought down a hundred-year old

institution because of poor controls. This happens because—it’s just

like racing a Formula 1 race, you either invest in a Ferrari or McLaren

and have the best driver to drive it. You need both. We have six

levels of training program. And yes, we are sorry this happened, but,

you know, it’s human error, human judgment or intentional.

SEN. OSMEÑA. We are trying to determine—That’s precisely

we appreciate your comments and the Committee is trying to

determine whether human judgment was indeed the main culprit…

/jmb

29


30/302

COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS ANDINVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)JTBCadaing IV-1 March 29, 2016 12:13 p.m. 1

SEN. OSMEÑA. …main culprit in this case or the compliance

rules of RCBC severely lacking. But tell me something.

Again, may dumating na $100 million, one account, no

justification, no legal, no trade, no services. Wouldn’t that get up to

you?

MR. L. TAN. Well, if the systems are working, I mean, given

our present system—

SEN. OSMEÑA. Well, we assume that they are working…

MR. L. TAN. Yes, someone—

SEN. OSMEÑA. Would it have reached you?

MR. L. TAN. Give me a chance, Your Honor. Someone should

really go down there and ask—

SEN. OSMEÑA. Not “should.” I want to ask you: Would it have

reached your level?

MR. L. TAN. It depends, Your Honor. If it’s a multinational

company with, you know, that reasonable level of business volume, I

don’t think it will reach me. But if it was a—

SEN. OSMEÑA. Now, if it’s a multinational company and this is

in the normal process—I’m Shell Corporation, I have an RCBC account,

30


31/302


I normally have transactions, the hundreds of millions of dollars a

month, of course, it’s going to be not.

But here, I’m talking about a specific situation where it’s an

inactive or dormant account. It’s that $500 in deposit, it suddenly

receives $100 million.

MR. L. TAN. Well, a perfectly working internal control system, I

would hope it really does not need to go to a CEO. The control should

kick in—

SEN. OSMEÑA. No, you’re speaking in hypothetical terms. I’m

asking you if $100 million had been deposited to the account of, I give

you one name, Lagrosas, would you have been alerted under your

current process?

MR. L. TAN. No, Your Honor.

SEN. OSMEÑA. You would not.

MR. L. TAN. Yes.

SEN. OSMEÑA. Two hundred million dollars, would you have

been alerted?

MR. L. TAN. Well, again, if the people feel—

SEN. OSMEÑA. No, not “if.” Would you have been alerted

under the circumstances?

31


32/302


MR. L. TAN. There’s no policy written that it needs to go to me.

SEN. OSMEÑA. No, I’m not talking about you. You’re talking

about judgment, you’re talking about having trained your people to

use their judgment. Correct because a lot of these are judgment calls.

So I’m asking you what would their judgment be? May dumating

$200 million, isang account $500 ang deposit, dormant. Wouldn’t I

run up to my boss and say, “Boss, what do I do with this?”

MR. L. TAN. Well, I’m hoping that, you know, the compliance

people and—

SEN. OSMEÑA. No. Would they have come up to you or not?

Don’t hope.

MR. L. TAN. I would think that the group head and the

compliance people should be able to solve that problem.

SEN. OSMEÑA. Themselves?

MR. L. TAN. Yes, sir.

SEN. OSMEÑA. All right. If the amount were $400 million?

MR. L. TAN. Well, again, if it’s extraordinary or unusual,

probably they will—

SEN. OSMEÑA. How extraordinary can that be? How

extraordinary do you want it to be?

32


33/302


MR. L. TAN. It’s really based on experience, Your Honor. I

mean, you know—

SEN. OSMEÑA. Yes, and so? Let’s be more specific. We’re not

sophisticated bankers so we’d like to know what would be that warning

sign that would alert your people to tell you that something fantastic is

happening?

MR. L. TAN. If it’s beyond reason or, you know, beyond the

ordinary course of the—

SEN. OSMEÑA. Would you consider $400 million within reason

or beyond reason?

MR. L. TAN. Your Honor, we just raised $400 million last year,

right? And since it’s going to RCBC, I don’t think the banks would

question something like that.

So, you know, if it’s to a “Mr. Juan Dela Cruz” who’s a salaried

employee, I think it would raise alarm bells in the bank.

SEN. OSMEÑA. I’m talking about a dormant account with

US$500 suddenly receiving $400 million.

MR. L. TAN. Well, the appropriate procedures would kick in,

Your Honor. You know, the STR report and things like that—

33


34/302


SEN. OSMEÑA. Yes, I know. But you’re always talking

hypothetically. I’d like you to tell me, would $400 million have alerted

your boys to tell you, “Take a look at this because—”

MR. L. TAN. I think eventually they will inform me. But I don’t

think, you know—

SEN. OSMEÑA. Eventually?

MR. L. TAN. Yes. I don’t think they’ll have to inform me the

same day.

SEN. OSMEÑA. If it were $800 million?

MR. L. TAN. I think 800 is really out of whack, you know.

SEN. OSMEÑA. You mean, it’s impossible.

MR. L. TAN. Well, no. I mean, of course, it will ring major

alarm bells, right?

SEN. OSMEÑA. And you would be informed?

MR. L. TAN. I think at the end of the day, they will inform me.

SEN. OSMEÑA. At the end of what day?

MR. L. TAN. At the end of the day when the remittance came

in.

SEN. OSMEÑA. So if the remittance came in at eight o’clock in

the morning, you’ll only find out at night.

34


35/302


MR. L. TAN. Based on our present system, yes, sir.

SEN. OSMEÑA. Oh my! Well, at this point, Mr. Chair, with your

permission, perhaps you’d like to—

THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, yes. We have here a table. Will you

hold this please?

As we all know, the amounts involved was $950 million, okay.

Eighty-one million dollars went through the system, went to RCBC.

And another $20 million was the subject of a stop order by the Federal

Reserve on its way to Sri Lanka. We’re talking about 35 payment

instructions totaling $951 million.

Now, five payment instructions went through. This one covers

the 30 payment instructions that did not go through. What is notable

here is that all payment instructions were created on the same day,

February 5, 2016. What time? All 30 payment instructions totaling

$850 million were created in two seconds—12 midnight and 51

seconds (12:00:51) to—12 midnight, 51 minutes and 51 seconds

(12:51:51), 12 midnight, 51 minutes to 52 seconds (12:51:52). Two

seconds, $850 million payment instructions were created.

Now, it’s all stated here that the beneficiary bank or the bank to

which the payment instructions were to be sent, the $850 million, all

35


36/302


of it, is in the name of RCBC. All of it, $850 million. And then from

RCBC, the $850 million would have gone to the five fictitious

accounts—Ralph Picache, Michael Cruz, Jessie Lagrosas, Alfred Vergara

and Enrico Vasquez. Five fictitious accounts, each having $30 million

payment instructions, $30 or $20 million. And then after that,

another five names, the same names. So it goes round and round by

succession. Iniikot-ikot lang, succeeding names.

So that is what we see and that is what would have happened if

the Federal Reserve Bank of New York honored the payment

instructions. Luckily, because of their diligence, they did stop these

30 payment orders.

In fact, the Federal Reserve sent a Telex or as message to the

Bank of Bangladesh and they were asking the following information:

No. 1, they say, “We would greatly appreciate if you could provide us

with more information on these transactions, specifically please

provide the following: No. 1, full information of the beneficiaries—

Alfred Vergara, Jessie Christopher Lagrosas, Michael Cruz, Enrico

Velasquez, Ralph Picache.” Then they go on and said, “Please include

their occupation, connection to the originating party which is the Bank

of Bangladesh, and the website reference, if possible.

36


37/302


Then No.2, “What is the professional relationship, if any,

between the five individual beneficiaries;” Then, No. 3, “Full details of

the underlying goods or services covered by these payments.” I

suppose… /jbc

37


38/302

COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS ANDINVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)RJOrtiz V-1 March 29, 2016 12:23 p.m. 1

THE CHAIRMAN. …I supposed—they supposed that these were

for the purchase of goods or services. So they were asking details.

And number four, which is very intriguing, why are these payments

that represent repayment of institutional loans being made to these

individual beneficiaries. So, in other words, they were wondering why a

central bank is dealing with individual beneficiaries. As we all know,

central banks do not deal with individuals. So what is remarkable here

is that had it gone through, it would have all—850 million or 951

million minus the 20 million for Sri Lanka would have all gone to RCBC

and then into the accounts of the fictitious persons. That would be

the line of reasoning that Senator Osmeña was trying to cull.

Senator Osmeña.

SEN. OSMEÑA. Mr. Tan.

MR. L. TAN. I think in that case, Your Honor, it will elicit a

different reaction from the people below.

SEN. OSMEÑA. Different reaction—what reaction would that be?

MR. L. TAN. Well, because the amount is so outrageous. I

mean, it’s like a credit card that averages a thousand dollars a month

then all of sudden it’s charging a hundred thousand. You know, it will

be a different reaction from the team.

38


39/302


SEN. OSMEÑA. That’s right, Mr. Tan, as a matter of fact. This

was a credit card that didn’t even average a thousand dollars a month,

it averaged zero a month. So that’s why the Committee wanted to

learn from you what would have triggered a stop payment on the part

of RCBC and I guess you are saying that it would only have come up to

all in all $950 million. Pag dumating doon, mag-i-stop ka na ng

payment?

MR. L. TAN. No, Your Honor. You know, even in the 81, we

had hold orders that were implemented right--

SEN. OSMEÑA. Which 81? You mean, the original deposits?

MR. L. TAN. Yes.

SEN. OSMEÑA. You had hold orders?

MR. L. TAN. Yes.

SEN. OSMEÑA. But you see the money went through. And

we’re trying to find out when will you act to stop the payment. And,

obviously, you said, “Well, $81 million, it’s up to my lower guys to

determine whether it should come up to me.” But at $850 million, it

will definitely be brought to your attention. And you are not telling

the Committee whether you would have executed a stop payment or if

39


40/302


you would have allowed the $850 million to go through because the

law does not allow you to stop the payment. We would like to know.

Would you like to respond, Mr. Tan?

MR. L. TAN. Well, you know, I’d like to discuss details of what

happened in that specific transaction, Your Honor, but again because

of bank secrecy, we cannot disclose--

SEN. OSMEÑA. No, we are not talking about a specific

transaction any longer, Mr. Chairman, because these amounts did not

go through. They were held by New York, US$850 million all supposed

to have been transmitted to RCBC. In the same manner that the first

four accounts were from New York. Kaya tinatanong ho ng Committee

kailan ba kayo mag-a-aksyon? When will you take action under your

internal rules?

MR. L. TAN. Those transactions were subjected to the end of

day review, Your Honor.

SEN. OSMEÑA. End of day?

MR. L. TAN. Yes.

SEN. OSMEÑA. Kapag dumating ng 8:00 o’clock in the

morning, itutuloy ng branch manager mo iyan and the money would

40


41/302


have been long gone—long gone, goodbye before it comes to you at

the end of the day. That’s very poor compliance.

MR. L. TAN. There is a person from head office that looks at

end of day transactions, Your Honor.

SEN. OSMEÑA. Kaya nga tinatanong ko, if you wait till the end

of day, the money would have been remitted already. That’s exactly

what happened in this case. Ms. Deguito got the notice around 10:50—

11:20--11:30—11:40—11:50 tinuloy iyong—and sent it to Philrem.

MR. L. TAN. There are supposed to be two controls. One is

money arrives at the branch, the branch manager’s job is to do their

KYC procedures and policies. Then at the end of the day, at the

settlements department, someone looks at the summary of

transactions then they start noticing big transactions like this one.

SEN. OSMEÑA. “Uy mali, get it back.” There was an order from

AMLC pero it was too late. How much will be freeze there, $60,000?

Please do not nod your head; you’ll have to speak into the mike,

Ms. Abad.

MS. ABAD. Your Honor, just around—as far as the four account

holders are concerned, just around US$68,000.

SEN. OSMEÑA. Three thousand dollars?

41


42/302


MS. ABAD. Sixty-eight thousand…

SEN. OSMEÑA. Sixty-eight thousand dollars?

MS. ABAD. …dollars were left for those four accounts.

SEN. OSMEÑA. Tingnan mo, you froze it. You froze a $68,000

but you wouldn’t freeze $81 million, that’s what you are telling us.

Yes.

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Your Honor, actually that was

a judgment call that we made notwithstanding the limitations that we

had under the law. We decided to just return the funds.

SEN. OSMEÑA. Kayo naman, oo.

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. It’s true, Your Honor.

SEN. OSMEÑA. You won’t stop 81 million but you are so proud

that you stopped the $68,000.

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Your Honor, as we explained,

when a request for freeze came in and I believe I explained it relative

to the William Go accounts last time, we sent notice to the branch to at

least find out what is what about, to find out more. It wasn’t a freeze

order from a court. And, unfortunately, within 30 minutes, the branch

manager implemented the deposits to the William Go account. So

that’s really what happened, Your Honor.

42


43/302


SEN. OSMEÑA. Yes, that’s why what I was asking

hypothetically, if you had learned and you had been alerted of this,

would you have put a stop to it? Even if it’s a temporary stop for one,

two days until you can validate.


SEN. OSMEÑA. Kasi if you had done your homework, you put

a stop to this, siguro in less than two hours you will find out that those

four accounts were fake.

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Yes. Your Honor, in that case,

it would be elevated to me and, probably, I would have made a

judgment call to stop it despite the possibility of being sued by the

account holders. It would have been elevated to me and I would have

made that judgment call.

SEN. OSMEÑA. We are recommending to Mr. Tan to appoint

you as executive vice president in charge of compliance.

In any case, Mr. Chairman, we would like to inform the

Committee that we received this information from the Bank of

Bangladesh through the kind efforts of Ambassador Gomes. And if we

have an official transmittal letter from Mr. Badrul Haque Khan, General

Manager of the Accounts and Budgeting Department, Bangladesh Bank

43


44/302


(Central Bank of Bangladesh). And they verified that they sent us this

list with the amounts involved, the names, the date, the account

numbers. I would like to submit this to the Committee for its records.

THE CHAIRMAN. Yes. At this point, we would like to

acknowledge the presence of the ambassador of the People’s Republic

of Bangladesh, His Excellency John Gomes, good morning, sir. Good

morning, Your Excellency. Thank you.

Okay. Let us now go to Mr. Kim Wong.

Mr. Kim Wong, paki--

MR. WONG. Your Honor, pwede ba po ako magbigay ng

opening statement ko?

THE CHAIRMAN. Oo, sige. Hindi naman siguro masyadong

mahaba, ano?

MR. WONG. Hindi naman po.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Kasi mas gusto namin iyong ikwento

mo iyong kung ano ang nangyari. Pero please proceed, go ahead.

MR. WONG. Thank you po.

Ako po si Kam Sin Wong. Kim Wong po ang tinawag sa akin ng

mga kaibigan ko po. Fifteen years ago, naimbestigahan na din ako ng

Senado. Pero hindi po ako ang Kim Wong…/rjo

44


45/302

COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS ANDINVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)CBGealan VI-1 March 29, 2016 12:33 p.m. 1

MR. WONG. …ang Kim Wong na nili-link sa drugs. Sa

katunayan, hindi po ako nakasuhan at wala din po negative findings

ang Senado sa akin po.

Nandito po ako para sabihin ang aking nalalaman sa issue na

money laundering na iniimbestigahan ng inyong Committee.

Marami pong akusasyon laban sa akin at sa maraming

malalaking tao, nandito ako para sabihin ang totoo at sabihin ang

aking nalalaman.

Itong negosyo namin sa casino, mayroon po kaming rules.

Kailangan magsabi ng totoo kahit anumang mangyari.

Una, wala akong kinalaman sa pagpeke ng bank documents para

pumasok ng pera sa bansa. Hindi ko alam ang pinagmulan ng $81

million.

Pangalawa, dalawang foreigners ang nagpasok ng $81 million,

isa sa kanila ay matagal nang labas pasok sa Pilipinas at kilalang

junket agent at high roller. Para makatulong sa mga imbestigador,

ilalagay ko sa isang sealed envelope ang kanilang pangalan at kopya

ng passport at isa-submit ko sa Committee.

45


46/302


Pangtatlo, si Maia ang nagpeke ng sinasabing limang bank

accounts. Isang foreigner lang po ang ni-refer ko kay Maia. Mayroon

po akong pangalan at litrato po.

Pang-apat, si Maia at Philrem ang gumawa ng lahat ng paraan

para mailabas ang pera sa bangko.

Panglima, noong lumabas ang freeze order, tinigil ang paglaro ng

mga players sa Midas at Solaire. Sa aking pagkakaalam, may

natitirang more or less P40 million sa Midas, more or less 100 million

po sa Solaire. Four point six three million dollars nakalagay sa isang

junket sa Solaire, at more or less $70 million ay hindi nakarating sa

casino at sa mga foreign players.

Pang-anim, sa kabuang $81 million na sinasabing ipinasok sa

RCBC, more or less $63 million ang pumasok sa Solaire at Midas

Casino. Ang balanse, more or less $17 million sa pagkakaalam ko po

ay na kay Philrem.

Maraming salamat po. Handa po akong sagutin ang inyong mga

katanungan.

THE CHAIRMAN. Sandali po. Sinabi mong 70, one-seven

million dollars?

46


47/302


MR. WONG. One-seven po. Seventeen po.

THE CHAIRMAN. Nasa Philrem?

MR. WONG. Opo.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Mr. Kim Wong, punta muna tayo sa

ano, iyong pagbukas ng accounts. Pakikuwento naman saan nangyari

ito at kailan nangyari?

MR. WONG. Palagi po akong kinukulit ni Maia para mag-open

ng account sa RCBC dahil wala naman po akong negosyo sa RCBC.

So isang araw nakita ko siya, nagkita kami, sabi ko, “O kung

gusto mo, mayroon akong player may utang sa akin gustong

magbukas ng account.”

So more or less may—hindi ko ho alam, dumating iyong player

ng 10, siguro 11 or 12 ng May 2015 pumunta ho si Maia sa office ko sa

Midas po.

THE CHAIRMAN. Si Maia pumunta sa office n’yo?

MR. WONG. Opo. Apat po sila, iyong tatlo po nasa labas. Ako

po at saka iyong junket ko po ay nasa loob ng office.

THE CHAIRMAN. So sa loob ng kuwarto tatlo lang kayo?

MR. WONG. Opo. Opo.

THE CHAIRMAN. Ikaw, si Ms. Maia Deguito at saka iyong—

47


48/302


MR. WONG. Junket ko po.

THE CHAIRMAN. Iyong junket operator?

MR. WONG. Opo, iyong sinasabi ko pong naka-seal po, nasa

envelope iyong passport.

THE CHAIRMAN. In the sealed envelope.

MR. WONG. Opo.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Bago noon, by the way, I’d like to

inform everyone in the Committee that Bloomberry has submitted a

report—is Bloomberry around? Yes—Submitted a report to the

Committee and I’m instructing the Comsec to reproduce the copies

with the request of Bloomberry to keep the identities confidential.

MR. S. TAN. Your Honor, our request is to keep the

confidentiality of the junket operator. We believe the Committee

should expose the name of the--well, Ding Zhize, the guy who brought

in the funds and the 18 players who played the non-negotiable chips

that were purchased out of the funds that we received from Philrem,

Your Honor.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay, then.

Pinangalanan iyong pangalan, do you confirm sino ba itong mga

ito?

48


49/302


MR. WONG. Ito po iyong malaking junket operator po.

THE CHAIRMAN. So sino iyong kasama mo sa kwarto na

kasama ni Maia?

MR. WONG. Iyong sana ipapangalan ko po “John,” kung puwede

po?

THE CHAIRMAN. O sige, for now John para matuloy yung

kuwento. Sige, pakikuwento anong nangyari?

SEN. ENRILE. Sandali lang.

MR. WONG. Opo.

SEN. ENRILE. Bakit hindi mo masabi ang pangalan noong

junket operator? Bakit kailangang ilagay mo sa envelope at naka-seal

at ibibigay mo sa Committee?

MR. WONG. Ay sasabihin ko po kung iyon ang request n’yo po.

SEN. ENRILE. Aba’y kailangan…

MR. WONG. Opo.

SEN. ENRILE. …sapagkat bakit—

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Pakisabi na lang para matapos na.

MR. WONG. Opo, sir.

SEN. ENRILE. Sandali lang, ano. Sandali lang.

49


50/302


Mayroon bang nagsabi sa iyo na kailangan ilagay mo sa sealed

envelope iyong mga pangalan?

MR. WONG. Opo, kasi po—

SEN. ENRILE. Sino ang nagsabi?

MR. WONG. May kausap po ako na mga maghahanap po sa

mga tao na ito, ang gobyerno po natin sa Pilipinas sana maitago para

mahanap po nila. Pero kung gusto ninyong sabihin ko, sasabihin ko

po.

SEN. ENRILE. Dapat sinabi mo doon sa immigration na huwag

ninyong palabasin itong mga taong ito kung nandito.

Nandito ba iyong mga tao?

MR. WONG. Supposed to be po dapat hindi po nakalabas kasi

po noong March 7 po sinabi ko sa abogado ko po kausapin ang AMLC,

kumbaga makatulong kami. Noong wala namang response ang AMLC

so iyong Solaire, March 10, hinuli niya lahat ng tao. Lahat ng kuwarto,

lahat ng pera’t chip hinuli ho nila kaya lang wala naman po kaming

magawa kaya nakaalis ho lahat.

THE CHAIRMAN. O sige, sige. Teka muna. Teka muna, let’s

put things back in perspective. Umpisa tayo doon sa pagbukas ng

account, doon muna tayo. Doon muna tayo.

50


51/302


MR. WONG. Hindi po, gusto niya po buksan o hindi?

THE CHAIRMAN. Hindi, sabihin mo na. Sabihin mo na.

Iyon nga, sasabihin mo kung sino iyong kasama mo doon sa

kuwarto. Sabihin mo na.

SEN. ENRILE. Sabihin mo. Sabihin mo na sa publiko para

malaman kung sino iyong mga tao na iyan. Kailangan na malaman

kung sino ang central personality.

MR. WONG. Shuhua Gao.

SEN. ENRILE. Huh? Ano?

THE CHAIRMAN. Shuhua Gao?

MR. WONG. Opo.

SEN. ENRILE. Sua Gao?

MR. WONG. Shuhua Gao. Ito po iyong passport niya po,

puwede ko ho ibigay ho sa inyo.

SEN. ENRILE. Isulat mo. Isulat mo.

SEN. SOTTO. Mr. Chairman, may we have the Sergeant-at-

Arms to get a copy of the—

SEN. ENRILE. Alam mo hindi ako nakakabasa—

SEN. OSMEÑA. Mr. Chair.

THE CHAIRMAN. Senator Osmeña…/cbg

51


52/302

COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS ANDINVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)HSGayapa VII-1 March 29, 2016 12:43 p.m. 1

THE CHAIRMAN. ...Senator Osmeña.

SEN. OSMEÑA. I think, for the record, the family name should

be the one that we use. Iyong family name niya Gao, hindi ba?

MR. WONG. Gao, opo, opo.

SEN. OSMEÑA. G-A-O.

MR. WONG. A-O.

SEN. OSMEÑA. Okay. Thank you.

MR. WONG. G-A-O po.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Gao. Okay.

SEN. ENRILE. Sino si Shuhua Gao?

MR. WONG. Sir, matagal na po ito nag--junket agent ko po,

almost eight years na po.

SEN. ENRILE. Kilala mo siya, huh?

MR. WONG. Kilalang-kilala ko po. Matagal na pong nag-o-

operate sa—

SEN. ENRILE. Sandali lang, unti-untiin natin.

MR. WONG. Opo.

SEN. ENRILE. Kilala mo siya?

MR. WONG. Kilala ko po.

SEN. ENRILE. Ayon. Taga-saan siya?

MR. WONG. Taga-China po.

52


53/302


SEN. ENRILE. Saan sa China?

MR. WONG. Sa Beijing po.

SEN. ENRILE. Beijing?

MR. WONG. Opo.

SEN. ENRILE. Han?

MR. WONG. Ano po?

SEN. ENRILE. Han, H-A-N? Han siya? Ang ethnic niya Han?

MR. WONG. Ano ho iyon?

SEN. ENRILE. Pabayaan mo na. O sige.

THE CHAIRMAN. Mr. Minority Floor Leader, let us allow him to

make his story first.

SEN. ENRILE. Taga-Beijing, huh?

MR. WONG. Opo.

SEN. ENRILE. Kailan unang pumasok sa Pilipinas iyan?

MR. WONG. I think 2007 po. Labas pasok po ito.

SEN. ENRILE. May record sa Immigration?

MR. WONG. Opo. At eto po puwede po itanong po sa Solaire

nakapaglaro na po ito ng--natalo po ito ng 450 million po.

SEN. ENRILE. Naglalaro sa casino ito?

53


54/302


MR. WONG. Opo. May record po sa Solaire po, puwede hong

tanungin. Natalo po ito ng 450 million po kaya po siya may utang sa

akin.

SEN. ENRILE. Two hundred fifty million pesos?

MR. WONG. Four hundred fifty million pesos po.

SEN. ENRILE. Four hundred fifty.

MR. WONG. Four hundred fifty po.

SEN. ENRILE. Sa isang gabi?

MR. WONG. Hindi po. Actually naglaro siya po one week. Nasa

record po ng Solaire nanalo ng 250 tapos napakiusapan kong maglaro

tapos natalo ng 250 na natalo pa ulit siya ng 450. Kaya umutang ako

sa Solaire, sabi ko, “Bigyan ninyo naman po ng credit, gustong

maglaro.” So, binigyan naman ako ng credit ng Solaire na 450 million

po.

SEN. ENRILE. Kailan iyon?

MR. WONG. I think 2000--early 2000 o late 2014 po.

THE CHAIRMAN. Mr. Senate Minority Floor Leader, can we just

let him finish first and then--

SEN. ENRILE. Yes, I will reserve my right to question--

MR. WONG. Opo.

54


55/302


THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, all senators will have the right to

question.

O sige, ako naman facilitator lang, ano?

So, anong nangyari? Sino ang nandoon sa opisina?

MR. WONG. Eto po, si Mr. Gao.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. So, tatlo kayo?

MR. WONG. Opo.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Anong nangyari?

MR. WONG. Sabi ni Mr. Gao kay Maia magbukas po ng account,

sabi ko, “Refer kita.” Gusto ni Mr. Gao na dollar. So, sabi po ni Maia

kailangan corporation, corporate ba. Kasi hindi pa ho ...

THE CHAIRMAN. Corporation.

MR. WONG. Kulang ang mga tao ko po. So, hindi ko

masyadong maintindihan. So, sabi ni Maia kailangan limang tao para

gumawa ng isang company para magbukas po ng account.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Tuloy mo.

MR. WONG. So, sabi ni Gao, “Bakit ang hirap yata magbukas

ng account?” So, sabi ni Maia, “Ako na ang bahala.” Tapos ay

nagmamadali din po ako umalis. So, sabi niya po siya na ang bahala.

Pagkatapos po--

THE CHAIRMAN. Sige, ituloy mo.

55


56/302


MR. WONG. Hindi ko po masyadong matandaan, two to three

days tumawag siya, ang sabi niya, “Kailangan ng $2,500.” So, sabi

ko po, “Sandali, tatanungin ko muna kay Mr. Gao.” So, sabi niya,

“Ipadala na lang.” So, sabi ni Mr. Gao ipadala. So, pinadala 2,500 po

kay Maia. Iyon po ang nangyari.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.

MR. WONG. Opo. Iyong sinasabi niya po na limang tao ko

noong sa Senate hearing, nadinig ko po, hindi po totoo iyon.

THE CHAIRMAN. Na may ibang tao, kayong tatlo lang?

MR. WONG. Wala naman po akong ... sinabi niya limang tao,

hindi po totoo iyon.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. So, ano pa ang nangyari after that?

MR. WONG. Wala na po.

THE CHAIRMAN. Wala na.

MR. WONG. Opo.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Doon tayo sa February 5. May

nangyari ba sa iyo tungkol sa mga nangyari dito sa money laundering?

MR. WONG. February 4 ho--

THE CHAIRMAN. February 4. Okay.

MR. WONG. Opo. Dumating po si Mr. Gao, sabi niya iyong

mag-i-invest sila sa Pilipinas kasi ang hirap ng casino sa Macau at

56


57/302


isasara nila iyong kompanya para madala, mag-invest dito sa junket sa

Manila. So, sabi ko, “Sige, sino ba ito?” Ang sabi niya, “Matagal na

itong kaibigan, si Ding.” Si Mr. Ding po. Iyong sinasabi niya po siya

po iyong nag-receive ng one point three million six hundred fifty.

THE CHAIRMAN. Mr. Ding. Sino si Mr. Ding?

MR. WONG. Ding Zhize.

THE CHAIRMAN. Ding Zhize.

MR. WONG. Iyong sinasabi po ni--

THE CHAIRMAN. Ano ang nationality ni Ding Zhize.

MR. WONG. Macau po.

THE CHAIRMAN. Macau. Okay. Sige, tuloy mo para matapos

mo na ang lahat ng gusto mong sabihin, ikuwento mo lahat and then

we will ask questions.

Sige, tuloy.

MR. WONG. So, sabi ko, “Sino nga ito?” Sabi niya, “Sigurado

mag-i-invest dito.” “O sige,” sabi ko, “Tingnan natin kung...” Ang sabi

niya may papasok silang malaking pera. Ang sabi ko, “Tingnan natin.

Pag may pera dumating--“Iyon ang casino rules namin.” Pag may pera

po, iyon ang totoong salita. Iyong mga sabi-sabi lang, hindi ho kami

naniniwala doon. Opo.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.

57


58/302


MR. WONG. Next day dahil nagmamadali ako--so, next day,

morning, ang sabi niya, “Magkita tayo sa Solaire.” Sabi ko, “Sige po.”

THE CHAIRMAN. Sino ang nagsabi sa iyo magkita kayo? Sige.

MR. WONG. Dalawa po sila.

THE CHAIRMAN. Si?

MR. WONG. Si Ding po at saka si Gao.

THE CHAIRMAN. Si Ding at saka si Gao. Okay.

MR. WONG. Oo kasi sabi niya po may darating na pera. O sige,

ang sabi ko, “Sige.” Tawag po ako kay Maia, ang sabi niya, “Wala po.”

Di wala. Ang sabi ko sa kanila, sabi niya, “Tawag ka pa,” sabi noong

dalawa. Sige, tawag ulit ako. Ang sabi ni Maia ang kulit ko. Ang sabi

ko, “Ang kulit nitong dalawa.” Tapos tawag na naman ulit ako. Mga

ilang tawag po, wala po.

THE CHAIRMAN. February 4 ito?

MR. WONG. February 5 ho, morning po.

THE CHAIRMAN. Ah, February 5 na.

MR. WONG. February 5 po, morning po. Tapos dumating ho

ang almost one something--

THE CHAIRMAN. In the afternoon.

MR. WONG. Opo. Tumawag sa akin si Maia, “O, may dumating

$6 million.” Sabi ko, “Okay.” Sabi ko sa kanilang dalawa may

58


59/302


dumating ho $6 million. O, sabi ko, “Maia, kung may dumating $6

million, ipadala mo na lahat sa Solaire.” Ang sabi niya, “Sige.” Tapos

tumawag ulit siya, “O, may dumating pa, 25.” “O, ‘di sige, ipadala mo.

Kung puwede, ipadala mo sa Solaire.” O, tumawag ulit, “O, may 30

pa, may 20 pa.”

THE CHAIRMAN. Lahat ito million?

MR. WONG. Opo. So, ibig sabihin lahat ho iyon, iyon ang 81

million po. Ang sabi niya, “Huwag mo na akong kulitin...”

THE CHAIRMAN. Dollars ito, ano?

MR. WONG. Opo. “Huwag mo na akong kulitin basta may

darating sa Solaire.” Sabi ko po, “Kung puwede naman po makikiusap

ako na sabi nitong player sana kung iyan mapadala mo sa Solaire at

may cash.” So, ang sabi niya gagawan niya ng paraan po. So, sabi

niya antayin na lang. Opo.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Tuloy pa. Ano pa ang nangyari?

MR. WONG. Dumating na lang mga 6:30--

THE CHAIRMAN. --6:30?

MR. WONG. --6 to 6:30 ng gabi. Sabi sa akin ng--

THE CHAIRMAN. Of February 5? 6:30 ng gabi sa February 5

ito?

MR. WONG. Opo.

59


60/302


THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.

MR. WONG. Sabi po sa akin ng Solaire, “O, boss, may

dumating na doon sa player mo kay Ding Zhize.” Ang sabi niya

Philrem ang nagpadala.

THE CHAIRMAN. Sino po?

MR. WONG. Philrem ang money changer.

THE CHAIRMAN. Philrem. Okay.

MR. WONG. Ang sabi ko, “Sino ba iyon?” Tapos dumating po si

Mr. Concon po.

THE CHAIRMAN. Sino si Mr. Concon?

MR. WONG. Concon Bautista po.

THE CHAIRMAN. Ah, iyon, Concon Bautista.

Ikaw iyon.

Okay.

MR. WONG. Dumating po siya, sabi niya--

THE CHAIRMAN. Anong oras itong dumating?

MR. WONG. Magse-seven siguro po.

THE CHAIRMAN. Magse-seven ng gabi na.

MR. WONG. --6:30, ganoon po.

THE CHAIRMAN. Sa Solaire?

MR. WONG. Opo.

60


61/302


THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.

MR. WONG. Sabi niya, napakiusapan siya ni Maia na tulungan.

Sabi niya, “Hindi dapat ako makialam diyan.” Si Maia ang nagkulit na

pakiusapan siya. So, sabi ko, “Thank you po.” So, sabi ni Concon,

iyong pinapo-produce ni Maia na pera na-produce niya P80 million po,

dala niya po.

THE CHAIRMAN. One-eight o eight-zero?

MR. WONG. Eight-zero million pesos po.../hsg

61


62/302

COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS ANDINVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)MJPalaganas VIII-1 March 29, 2016 12:53 p.m. 1

MR. WONG. Eight-zero million pesos po.

THE CHAIRMAN. Eighty million pesos po.

MR. WONG. Opo.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.

SEN. SOTTO. Dinala niya?

THE CHAIRMAN. Dala niya?

MR. WONG. Opo, ng tao niya.

THE CHAIRMAN. Cash, dala niya.

MR. WONG. Yes po. Tapos sabi niya, iyong kakulangan na 20

million, dadalhin ni Maia.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.

MR. WONG. Twenty million pesos po.

So dumating si Maia po—

THE CHAIRMAN. Mga anong oras dumating?

MR. WONG. Iyong base po sa record po ng Solaire, iyong

sasakyan niya po vinaley (valet) po is 7:57:35 seconds. Ito po iyong

sa Solaire po, sasakyan po ni Maia po. [Mr. Wong shows a picture.]

THE CHAIRMAN. Ayun. So may CCTV snapshot.

MR. WONG. Opo. Mayroon pa pong iba pa.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay, So 7:57, halos mag 8 o’clock na rin?

62


63/302


MR. WONG. Opo.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.

MR. WONG. Hindi, vinaley ho (valet). Ibig sabihin mas maaga

siyang dumating kasi kinuha pa ito.

THE CHAIRMAN. Kinuha, okay.

MR. WONG. Bale ho pagbaba.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay, sige.

MR. WONG. Opo.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay, ituloy ninyo po.

MR. WONG. Tapos po, sabi ho ni Concon, itong 100 million

dapat may receive iyan. Syempre, ‘di ba po? So ibinigay ko po iyon

kay Weikang Xu na password po. Iyong Weikang Xu na sinasabi

ninyong—

THE CHAIRMAN. Teka, sabi mo 100 million.

MR. WONG. Opo, in peso po.

THE CHAIRMAN. Bakit naging 100 na?

MR. WONG. ‘Di ba 80 plus 20 po, 80 million plus 20 million?

THE CHAIRMAN. Sinong nagdala noong 20?

VOICES. Si Maia.

MR. WONG. Si Maia po.

63


64/302


THE CHAIRMAN. Pinapaklaro ko lang. So okay.

SEN. ENRILE. Cash iyon?

THE CHAIRMAN. Cash iyon, Mr. Kim?

MR. WONG. Cash po.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.

MR. WONG. Mayroon pong patunay iyan, itong cash na

pagdating po dahil nagmamadali iyong player ko, sila Ding, si Gao,

tsinek-in (check-in) ko. Kasi mayroon po kaming rules na usapan.

Basta lahat ng pera pumasok dito, ang usapan dito lahat lalaruin sa

casino.

Kasi ang casino po, kami, mayroon kaming gentlemen

agreement. So ito dineposit (deposit) ko po, mayroon pong picture na

February 5, 8:07, inakyat ko po sa isang junket, 100 million. At pwede

po i-check sa Solaire.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. You are showing us a picture of—

MR. WONG. Tinanggap po iyong 100 million, patunay iyan.

THE CHAIRMAN. Na tinanggap iyong 100 million sa Solaire?

MR. WONG. Opo.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Iyong picture na iyan, galing sa

Solaire din? Iyong ipinakita mo, galing sa Solaire iyan?

64


65/302


MR. WONG. Mahirap hong sabihin. Pero ito ang patunay.

THE CHAIRMAN. Hindi. Saan kinuha iyon?

MR. WONG. Pati oras po, may oras po.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.

MR. WONG. May date ho, February 5.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay, sige. Ituloy mo.

SEN. ENRILE. Sinong kumuha noong picture?

MR. WONG. Ako po.

SEN. ENRILE. Ikaw?

MR. WONG. Ako po.

SEN. ENRILE. Marunong ka talaga.

THE CHAIRMAN. Sige, ituloy ninyo po.

MR. WONG. Opo. Nai-deposit sa junket na po tapos kumain

kami.

THE CHAIRMAN. Sino kayong kumain?

MR. WONG. Kami ni Concon pa at saka si Maia.

THE CHAIRMAN. Si Maia, si Concon at ikaw, kumain?

MR. WONG. Oo. Sa Korean restaurant po, sa Kiwa.

THE CHAIRMAN. Kiwa.

MR. WONG. Opo.

65


66/302


THE CHAIRMAN. Korean restaurant, sa Solaire din iyon?

MR. WONG. Opo.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.

MR. WONG. Tapos po, February 9, ako po ang kumuha sa

bahay ni Concon ng 100 million—cash—pesos.

THE CHAIRMAN. February 9?

MR. WONG. Opo.

THE CHAIRMAN. One hundred million pesos cash.

MR. WONG. Opo.

THE CHAIRMAN. Sa bahay nino?

MR. WONG. Ni Concon po.

THE CHAIRMAN. Concon Bautista ng Philrem?

MR. WONG. Opo.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.

MR. WONG. At three million dollars po.

THE CHAIRMAN. So 100 million pesos and three million

dollars?

MR. WONG. Opo.

THE CHAIRMAN. All in cash?

MR. WONG. Opo.

66


67/302


THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.

MR. WONG. February 10, kumuha po ako ng two million

dollars sa bahay niya.

SEN. SOTTO. Dollars?

THE CHAIRMAN. Iyong two million, ano iyon, dollars?

MR. WONG. Two million dollars po at saka 100 million pesos,

February 10.

THE CHAIRMAN. One hundred million pesos?

MR. WONG. Opo. February 14 po, kumuha ako ulit ng isang

100 million. So total po, 400 million—100 million sa Solaire, 300

million sa bahay niya at saka five million US dollars cash.

THE CHAIRMAN. So 400 million cash?

MR. WONG. Hindi. Iyong 100 dineliver (deliver) sa Solaire;

300 million, kinuha ko po sa bahay niya—

THE CHAIRMAN. On three dates, anong date iyon?

MR. WONG. --9, 10, 14.

THE CHAIRMAN. --9, 10 and 14.

MR. WONG. Opo.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.

MR. WONG. At saka five million dollars ho, cash.

67


68/302


THE CHAIRMAN. Five million. Tapos anong breakdown ng

five million? Kailan mo kinuha iyong—sabi mo may three, may two,

ganoon ba iyon?

MR. WONG. Oho. Isang February 9, three million; February

10, two million dollars po.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.

MR. WONG. Ito pong umpisa ito, itong dollars po, kasi iyong

300 million na kinuha ko, nai-deposit sa junket. Itong dollars po,

gustong kunin nitong mga junkets—si Gao at saka si Ding—medyo

doon nag-away na ho kami kasi po ang gentlemen agreement, walang

kukuning cash. So wala ho sa rules. So noong kinuha, kaya naging

4.63 million iyong natira ko sa isang junket po, iyong nasabi ko, dahil

nag-aaway na po kami. Kinuha niya 370,000 so nagagalit na ako kasi

wala hong usapang kukuning cash.

Kasi itong negosyo namin, usapan lang, tiwala. Sabi ko, “Niloloko

ninyo ako.” Sabi ko, “Talunin ninyo muna lahat ng pera na nasa

Solaire, saka ninyo na lang kunin ito.” So kaya naiwan po iyan—4.63

million dollars po.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.

SEN. SOTTO. Naiwan saan?

68


69/302


THE CHAIRMAN. Naiwan saan?

MR. WONG. Sa isang junket po sa Solaire, naka-safekeeping po.

THE CHAIRMAN. Hanggang ngayon, nandiyan pa?

MR. WONG. Nandiyan po. Kung gusto ninyo—sabi ko nga,

gusto ko ngang dalhin dito. Payo lang sa akin ng abugado (?) ko

masama po iyon.

SEN. SOTTO. Mr. Chair, ano lang—just to inform the public

the public ano.

THE CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.

SEN. SOTTO. Marami ang nagtatanong, ano ba iyong junket

operator? Ano iyong junket player? At ano iyong junket na binabanggit

mo? Ano iyon? Paki-esplika ngang mabuti.

MR. WONG. Opo. Ang junket operator po, katulad ko, sa

Cagayan Economic Zone po, Eastern Hawaii Leisure Company Resort

with a casino license. Ang junket operator po, ibig sabihin, kailangan

sa iyo ang dealer, sa iyo ang fare—lahat ng junket operators, ibig

sabihin, kailangan foreigner. Hindi ho pwede ang local na tao, hindi

pwede po maglaro. Bawal po. Lahat po kailangan manifest.

SEN. SOTTO. “Money first”?

MR. WONG. Opo.

69

8/18/2019 TRANSCRIPT: 3rd Public Hearing of the Senate Blue Ribb

transcript: 3rd public hearing of the senate blue ribbon committee on the $81-m money laundering...

Documents