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8/2/2019 Transcript 9 26

1/85

Closed Session September 26, 2011

CONFIDENTIAL 1

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11 CONFIDENTIAL

12 TRANSCRIPTION OF CLOSED SESSION MEETING

13 SEPTEMBER 26, 2011

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25 TRANSCRIBED BY: MARTHA L. VENTIMIGLIA, CSR NO. 8992


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CONFIDENTIAL 2

1 P A R T I C I P A N T S

2 SUPERVISOR GLORIA MOLINA

3 SUPERVISOR ZEV YAROSLAVSKY

4 SUPERVISOR DON KNABE

5 MICHAEL D. ANTONOVICH, MAYOR PRESIDING

6 GOVERNOR JERRY BROWN

7 SHERIFF LEE BACA

8 MARVIN SOUTHARD, DIRECTOR DEPARTMENT OF MENTAL HEALTH

9 TERRI McDONALD, STATE DIRECTOR - ADULT INSTITUTIONS

10 BILL FUJIOKA, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER

11 CAL REMINGTON, CHIEF DEPUTY - PROBATION

12 ANDREA ORDIN, COUNTY COUNSEL

13 SACHI HAMAI, EXECUTIVE OFFICER OF THE BOARD OFSUPERVISORS

14DIANE DOOLEY, STATE HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES DIRECTOR

15ANA MATOSANTOS, STATE DIRECTOR, DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE

16MATT CATE, STATE SECRETARY - DEPARTMENT OF

17 CORRECTIONS/REHABILITATION

18 REAVER BINGHAM, DEPUTY CHIEF ADULT SERVICES, PROBATIONDEPARTMENT

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CONFIDENTIAL 3

1 CLOSED SESSION

2 MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 2011

3 2:35 P.M.

4 * * *

5 (Beginning of recording.)

6 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: So is this your old

7 meeting room?

8 GOVERNOR BROWN: No.

9 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: You never met in this one

10 before when you were --

11 GOVERNOR BROWN: No. What' this room? No.

12 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: This is where our offices

13 are. (Inaudible). Mark and I are on this side, and

14 Gloria is in the middle, and then Don and Zev on are on

15 the other side, the other meeting.

16 (Speaking simultaneously.)

17 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: Supervisor -- Supervisor

18 Mark Ridley-Thomas is on his way, so --

19 GOVERNOR BROWN: And Zev?

20 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: Zev is supposed to be

21 here, too.

22 GOVERNOR BROWN: He was (inaudible) with the

23 Armenian president.

24 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: We were at the dinner last

25 night with the president.


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CONFIDENTIAL 4

1 GOVERNOR BROWN: Was that a big --

2 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: Yeah, at the Beverly

3 Hilton.

4 GOVERNOR BROWN: Was Wally Karabian (phonetic)

5 there?

6 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: I didn't see Wally.

7 GOVERNOR BROWN: I didn't see him today, either.

8 I wanted --

9 MALE SPEAKER: No.

10 MALE SPEAKER: Just depends. So excited that

11 Armenian, Wally --


13 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah. No. No. No. Wally has a

14 pretty strong viewpoint on that.

15 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: This is the president, but

16 you had both arch bishops there.

17 MALE SPEAKER: Oh, did you?

18 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: Jerian and Mardosian.

19 MALE SPEAKER: Then Wally must have been in town.

20 GOVERNOR BROWN: So in California, you have two

21 arch bishops?

22 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: Yeah, both arch bishops

23 from the -- both sides of the Armenian orthodox were

24 there along with Prot- -- Roman Catholic and

25 Protestant.


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CONFIDENTIAL 5

1 (Inaudible.)

2 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: We had -- we had an

3 agenda, I understand --

4 FEMALE SPEAKER: The (inaudible) agenda?

5 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: -- that was agreed upon;

6 right?

7 FEMALE SPEAKER: Bill (inaudible).

8 MR. FUJIOKA: What we have is actually an agenda

9 that we developed, and it has our discussion points and

10 also what are our position and discussion points that

11 occurred in last Friday's meeting.

12 We had a very, very good meeting with State

13 staff on -- on some of the issues that are identified

14 by County physician.

15 We understand today that we can go through

16 this particular agenda and identify where we reached

17 resolution. And then I understand, Mr. Mayor, that he

18 has some, you know, questions yourself.

19 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: So we all have questions.

20 GOVERNOR BROWN: Well, I just want to say is we

21 have a Supreme Court case that is final, five to four.

22 And then I can change it, where we have to reduce the

23 prison by 30,000.

24 And we don't want to let out -- we don't want

25 people who are the worst to be getting out in some way


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CONFIDENTIAL 6

1 before they should, and so we have a plan.

2 The plan is not -- the plan is only suddenly

3 to change and improve with regarding how it works. And

4 we want to be very responsive and very available and

5 work with you in real time.

6 So, you know, not -- if something goes wrong

7 six months later, that's why I came here, because I

8 wanted you to know that you call me. But I wanted you

9 to see the staff because they are going to be

10 responsible for carrying things out.

11 But I just point out that a lot of what we are

12 doing is not new stuff. A little Hoover Commission,

13 (inaudible) making that a commission. There has been

14 studies. I think there is as many as 10 reports

15 telling us that our current system has a lot of

16 problems. And we do -- a lot of people get out; and a

17 lot of these people, when they serve their

18 determinative sentence, they still are in no way ready

19 to come out. But they come out, anyway; and they do

20 damage.

21 So we hope we have gotten the so-called

22 nonviolent, nonserious, nonsexual. But we know that

23 that's not going to catch everybody, so -- but the

24 thing I -- we have to note is that the recidivism rate

25 for the State is somewhere between 60 and 70 percent.


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CONFIDENTIAL 7

1 And so that system is failing.

2 Hopefully, we can get together a better

3 system. And these are all local people. So instead of

4 letting people out of prison, we're just saying, before

5 they get there, handle them in the way you handle

6 others here.

7 And I'm not saying it's perfect, but we -- we

8 have the whole team here that will do the best we can.

9 Diane Dooley is in charge of our mental

10 health, is the head director of Health and Human

11 Services. We have Ana Matosantos who is the budget

12 director. These people have been around a long time.

13 I hired Diane when she was 20- -- how old were

14 you?

15 MS. MATOSANTOS: Four.

16 GOVERNOR BROWN: 24. And that was how many years

17 ago?

18 MS. MATOSANTOS: Just -- well, I just turned 60.

19 So how many years? You do the math.

20 GOVERNOR BROWN: So we're recycling, you know.

21 Michael, you are recycling, too. So we got a lot of

22 experience here.

23 Now Kate's a little more younger. She's in

24 her forties. But, of course, she retires earlier, so

25 we've got to get more work out of her.


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CONFIDENTIAL 8

1 And these are corrections and --

2 FEMALE SPEAKER: Terri.

3 MS. McDONALD: Terri McDonald.

4 GOVERNOR BROWN: Terri is the No. 2 --

5 MALE SPEAKER: And Baca's a teenager, too.

6 FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

7 GOVERNOR BROWN: Baca's young. He's running

8 marathons.

9 SHERIFF BACA: 69.

10 GOVERNOR BROWN: 69. All right. That's pretty

11 good.

12 So we know there's some issues. We'd like to

13 work with you and unite all. Let's see how we can put

14 it together. Because we all got a gun at our head, and

15 we've got to respond.

16 And when you're dealing with Reinhard,

17 Henderson, and --

18 FEMALE SPEAKER: Carlton.

19 GOVERNOR BROWN: -- Carlton, they're difficult to

20 deal with.

21 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: So we don't get off the

22 track, we'll just go down the agenda that the CEO has

23 put together and then we can --

24 First one was on the funding adequacy. And I

25 understand that you're still working on the $46.19 per


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CONFIDENTIAL 9

1 day for the transition, and those negotiations are

2 ongoing at this stage.

3 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah. We think we're pretty

4 settled on the -- that's our -- if you take out the

5 cost of Cal Fire and these are just the costs

6 associated with running the -- the correctional

7 officers and equipment and those kinds of things,

8 assuming that we at corrections have to -- we run the

9 fire camps, of course. As you note here, we're talking

10 to the sheriff about whether that's a -- a function

11 that we should shift over. We wouldn't do that unless

12 the County wanted it.

13 But fire camps are critical for public safety.

14 We try to get the cost down as low as we possibly could

15 for that.

16 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: One question.

17 How can we be contracting out prison beds when

18 you have a court order to reduce your population by

19 30,000 when there's a contract back with you that

20 people were getting but yet you have to reduce your

21 population. So how do we contract them back when

22 you're already at excessive capacity?

23 MALE SPEAKER: The court order excludes camps and

24 excludes our low-level facilities that are run by

25 municipalities. So we can overcrowd the camps. We


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CONFIDENTIAL 10

1 don't because they have to -- they have to run, you

2 know, certain number of teams; but it doesn't count

3 towards the capacity.

4 And the other thing, quite frankly, is that we

5 see good results from these inmates once they've been

6 out working those fire lines. And they tend to do a

7 little better job in the community. And so they get

8 extra credits which means that they don't cost as much

9 that way, either.

10 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: But not everyone is

11 physically fit to work in the fire camps. So how do

12 you differentiate between physically fit and, again,

13 filling back your facilities when you're having to

14 unload those inmates?

15 MALE SPEAKER: Well, there is a -- there is a

16 physical fitness requirement. They do have to be

17 fairly sound in body and mind to be able to be in a

18 fire camp. So that's our -- that's kind of the first

19 opportunity is is that opportunity.

20 SUPERVISOR MOLINA: Can I ask for a clarification?

21 So the fire camps are still going to continue

22 to be funded? Because right now we get funding for

23 fire camps; correct? So are you saying -- is that what

24 you're saying? I'm not sure I understood that.

25 MALE SPEAKER: Well --


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CONFIDENTIAL 11

1 MALE SPEAKER: There's two types of --


3 SUPERVISOR MOLINA: Well, we get reimbursed --


5 SUPERVISOR MOLINA: -- or we get funded for the

6 fire camps; and I know that if they don't get funded,

7 it creates a different hole in our fire department.


9 MALE SPEAKER: -- June, I believe.

10 FEMALE SPEAKER: Maybe I can help.

11 SUPERVISOR MOLINA: Thank you.

12 FEMALE SPEAKER: So we fund LA Cal Fire, not

13 fully --

14 SUPERVISOR MOLINA: That's what I'm saying.

15 FEMALE SPEAKER: -- but we do give out about

16 $3 million to LA fire for LA fire.

17 MALE SPEAKER: That's (inaudible).

18 FEMALE SPEAKER: No. For the five fire camps we

19 have here with adults in.

20 MALE SPEAKER: Oh, with adults?

21 FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes. We give about $3 million

22 for that.

23 This is really about does LA County need a

24 capacity solution for offenders that are serving jail

25 time.


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CONFIDENTIAL 12

1 SUPERVISOR MOLINA: So you're not taking away that

2 $3 million?

3 FEMALE SPEAKER: No, not at this point.

4 SUPERVISOR MOLINA: Oh, okay. Because we were

5 under the impression that that money was -- was not

6 going to come back here.

7 MR. FUJIOKA: No. There's a concern that way and

8 also the money for --

9 SUPERVISOR MOLINA: That's good to know.

10 MR. FUJIOKA: -- parolees or those waiting for --

11 to be incarcerated in State jails, but we clarified

12 that on Friday. That money will continue for that

13 population.

14 As that population trips out, the money will

15 be reduced. So that money will continue which allows

16 the sheriff, because there's a big question about that

17 and whether not if we didn't receive the funds, whether

18 we can staff the 4,000 plus beds.

19 But now that we received clarification that,

20 in fact, that money will continue in talking to the

21 sheriff and have a plan for how they can do it. They

22 can go from the 1600 beds that was reported for last

23 week to approximately 4,000 beds. But it will ramp up

24 in an incremental basis.

25 But that was in the clarifying points we


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CONFIDENTIAL 13

1 received last week. Those are very positive clarifying

2 points.

3 On the fire camps, the CVCR and our sheriff

4 will continue talks to see if we can -- if it's part of

5 our plan to transition to camps in the State, to the

6 County. Well, at least to continue those camps because

7 it does offer a good alternative form of incarceration.

8 MALE SPEAKER: We'd like to do that. We need

9 funding to do that. Bill also offers firefighting

10 resources, as well.

11 MR. FUJIOKA: I think it's a very, very good

12 resource.


14 GOVERNOR BROWN: So what's the issue outstanding?

15 MALE SPEAKER: I think we're okay as long as the

16 money is there.

17 MR. FUJIOKA: As long as that money continues and

18 that was -- that was the commitment.

19 GOVERNOR BROWN: What's the basis of the money?

20 Is it per person?

21 MR. FUJIOKA: It's for -- it's for individuals who

22 are waiting to transfer --

23 GOVERNOR BROWN: Yeah. Yeah. What -- how much

24 dollars follows it? What body?

25 FEMALE SPEAKER: So -- so let me help. Everybody


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CONFIDENTIAL 14

1 that's in LA County jail on a parole revocation hearing

2 before October 1st, the State will continue to pay the

3 $77.17 a day until they are out of the jail.

4 Anybody received after October 1st, that's

5 part of the realignment money on a parole hold. So

6 anybody that's in there, so the sheriff's staff were

7 working toward to identify it's about 1500 on almost

8 any given day. Identifying those folks, we agree those

9 are the folks the State will continue to pay for

10 because they were in before October 1st.

11 SHERIFF BACA: We appreciate that. That means

12 that $37 million --

13 SUPERVISOR MOLINA: But what I'm saying is that in

14 the fire camps, they're funded. Are they funded under

15 this per person -- they're funded differently?

16 FEMALE SPEAKER: So -- so each county got their

17 realignment money to make incarceration solutions that

18 are best for that county.

19 SUPERVISOR MOLINA: Correct.

20 FEMALE SPEAKER: One of the things that we're

21 saying is there are certain percentage of population

22 that the State would have previously gotten before

23 realignment that will remain with the State.

24 The best example --

25 GOVERNOR BROWN: (Inaudible) or the County?


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CONFIDENTIAL 15

1 FEMALE SPEAKER. The County. Sorry. County will

2 keep them.

3 The best example I use is somebody that would

4 serve a three-year sentence. I don't know that the

5 candidate stay locally. I don't know if the County

6 would put them on GPS or alternative custody. But if

7 they don't want to do that and they're fire camp

8 eligible, they can contract back that bed from the

9 State where we do the guarding, feeding, the clothing,

10 the sheltering for them.

11 GOVERNOR BROWN: And so we pay the County and the

12 County pays us?

13 FEMALE SPEAKER: It's part of that.

14 GOVERNOR BROWN: If they put -- and how much is

15 it? Oh, per inmate it's -- that's the $40.19?

16 MALE SPEAKER: $46.

17 FEMALE SPEAKER: That's their cost to -- to -- for

18 us to contract.

19 The County got a bucket of money, about $120

20 million, I think, somewhere around there for LA County.

21 So that's part of that what are your solutions for

22 managing your local offenders, whether they stay in

23 jail or you're leasing CCF beds or you're doing GPS

24 supervision or you're doing substance abuse, or

25 alternative custody.


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CONFIDENTIAL 16

1 It's just one of the many menu of options that

2 the County has available to them.

3 The -- the interesting thing about the fire

4 camp is the $46.19 a day sounds -- well, it's a pretty

5 good rate to begin with, but County firefighters get

6 two for one off their sentence. So that person serving

7 three years, if the sheriff said let's put him in jail

8 or her in jail, they'll spend a year and a half at

9 whatever the jail rate is, $77 a day.

10 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: I think they can put them

11 in jail for up to one year.

12 FEMALE SPEAKER: Under realignment, they could

13 stay in jail --

14 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: No. No. Under

15 realignment.

16 FEMALE SPEAKER: So under realignment. So this is

17 post-realignment.

18 So let's say -- we say this guy is healthy or

19 this gal is healthy, they're nonservice, nonviolent,

20 nonsex, you want to put them in a fire camp, state-run

21 fire camp. They don't serve a year and a half because

22 they get two for one off their sentence. They serve

23 one year.

24 So you're getting the benefit of a cheaper

25 bed. You're getting a benefit of a rehabilitative


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CONFIDENTIAL 17

1 program because the fire camps are an incredible

2 program for offenders. You're fighting fires, and

3 they're serving less time than they would if they were

4 sitting in the jail bed.

5 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: Can I ask one question?

6 What's the population of a fire camp, and do

7 we already exceed that population? And if we don't,

8 what happens when we do exceed that population because

9 we'll have more --

10 SUPERVISOR KNABE: You mean the five adult fire?

11 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: Yeah. We'll have more

12 people coming regularly to these fire camps so won't we

13 exceed the population of those camps?

14 SHERIFF BACA: The State's camp in the County, as

15 I'm told, I don't know, you can confirm this, is over

16 400 people.

17 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: But you're going to have

18 more than 400 inmates coming --

19 SHERIFF BACA: Yeah.


21 SHERIFF BACA: -- but this is just a piece of this

22 solution of realignment.

23 MALE SPEAKER: And --

24 FEMALE SPEAKER: So -- so --



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CONFIDENTIAL 18

1 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: And not all of the females

2 will be able to go to the fire camps.

3 SHERIFF BACA: -- take a 400 bed opportunity along

4 with the fire captain responsibility than it is to pass

5 it up.

6 MALE SPEAKER: It's just one small piece of it.

7 SHERIFF BACA: You're right.

8 FEMALE SPEAKER: I know.

9 SHERIFF BACA: It's not the whole answer to

10 everything. It's just one good piece for --

11 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: But if you have a 30,000

12 overpopulation you have to get rid of, we're not going

13 to put them all in fire camps that are coming down, the

14 58 counties.

15 SHERIFF BACA: We also need the fire camp

16 opportunity as well because it gives us another

17 additional 400-person opportunity to put them there.

18 FEMALE SPEAKER: And you're not limited to 400.

19 SUPERVISOR KNABE: You got 400 vacancies?

20 SHERIFF BACA: No. There's 400 inmates that are

21 inside fire camp doing what firefighting needs them to

22 do.

23 FEMALE SPEAKER: The State has 4- to 500 fire camp

24 beds today.

25 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: But we're talking our


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CONFIDENTIAL 19

1 counties, the LA County's --


3 FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah. You're not isolated to LA

4 counties, and you're really -- you're really not. If

5 you guys came forward and said, "Listen, we really

6 could fill" -- I'm just going to make up a number --

7 "1500 fire camp beds," right, we'll work with Cal Fire

8 to figure out how to do that and LA fire. We're not

9 going to isolate a county in favor of the LA County

10 ones. If you have more than we can fill in LA

11 counties, then we'll continue to convert state felon

12 fire camps to county felon fire camps to open up

13 capacity for the counties.

14 Having too many firefighters is a good thing

15 for the State to have to worry about. That's a --

16 that's a good problem to have.

17 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: Not when we have to pay

18 for them and be responsible for them. What do we do

19 with them?

20 FEMALE SPEAKER: Well, I think your choice, with

21 all respect, is a jail bed at $77 a day or a fire camp.

22 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: But what if we don't have

23 the jail space for them, what do we do then?

24 SHERIFF BACA: Just to say -- I don't know how --

25 if I can answer this adequately.


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CONFIDENTIAL 20

1 You either have 400 or more type fire-type

2 camp operations going on or you use the county jail.

3 But if you just use the county jail, you've lost the

4 chance to manage a significant amount of additional

5 inmates that are selected for this particular camp

6 project.

7 SUPERVISOR YAROSLAVSKY: But the number of people

8 we're going to have to put in jail far exceeds as far

9 as I can tell the number of beds we have available in

10 our fire camps, even your fire camps.

11 MALE SPEAKER: Sure, it's not the whole solution.

12 FEMALE SPEAKER: Sure.

13 MALE SPEAKER: So keep in mind also that the

14 30,000 is going to be over three or four years. So the

15 first year, the beginning is a trickle of people

16 because it's not -- we don't -- we're not going to

17 shift anybody that we have to you. It's only on a

18 going-forward basis. And so we will have to find

19 solutions as we go forward.

20 The fire camps, maybe a couple thousand

21 solution. Obviously, the sheriff will need to open

22 more jail space. There's 10,000 vacant jail beds right

23 now because of a lack of funding to operate them

24 statewide. So we'll need to get those operational.

25 But also there needs to be some community


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CONFIDENTIAL 21

1 solutions around rehabilitation and alternatives to

2 incarceration, like with female inmates that we're

3 doing in the State system.

4 And that's really up to the community

5 corrections partnership to try to find those solutions.

6 And maybe it's construction for some counties over the

7 long term using AB 900 state bond funds. But it'll be

8 a different solution for each group as that number

9 progresses. That's the idea.

10 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: But the bond funds were to

11 build, renovate the jails for our existing population,

12 not the new groups that are coming in.

13 MALE SPEAKING: Well --

14 MALE SPEAKER: For both.

15 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah. They weren't identified as

16 having to be for one group or another, and there are

17 still hundreds of millions in bond funds available.

18 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: But we still have a need

19 for additional bed space for our own inmates. And when

20 that AB 90, 190 or whatever it was that was passed,

21 they weren't focusing on the State bringing down these

22 inmates at a rapid pace.

23 SHERIFF BACA: We do have a plan, though, that we

24 have to present to you that deals with building a

25 women's facility as we'd spoken a couple years ago


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CONFIDENTIAL 22

1 (inaudible). And that facility will be about 12- or

2 1300 beds that we can pull women out of Women's

3 Regional Justice Center, send them there under a new

4 design that's more sensible for women. And we have --

5 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: It's like five years from

6 now.

7 SHERIFF BACA: Wait. Wait. We have $100 million

8 that's tagged under this AB 900.

9 MR. FUJIOKA: And AB 900 was revised to allow, to

10 actually fit AB 109 better than it did in the past.

11 Because there was a restriction before that it had to

12 be only for reentry beds. So it kind of has changed.

13 The fire camps, I mean, are a good option

14 because, I mean, it's been proven that individuals who

15 successfully complete the fire camp program have a

16 lower degree of recidivism because of some of the

17 skills they -- they learned, the team work they

18 learned, and it's a better environment for those

19 individuals.

20 SUPERVISOR YAROSLAVSKY: How many -- how many fire

21 camp beds? I didn't hear the answer to the questions

22 asked a minute ago. Of the ones that you guys

23 currently operate, how many beds are there in LA

24 County?

25 FEMALE SPEAKER: There's six facilities in LA


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CONFIDENTIAL 23

1 County. Five of them run by LA fire. I think it's

2 about 500 beds.


4 SUPERVISOR YAROSLAVSKY: The five that we run,

5 we're going to continue to run because you're going to

6 continue to give us the money to run them.

7 FEMALE SPEAKER: So we guard those, we feed, we

8 shelter, we guard. Your LA County fire does -- is not

9 the -- does the firefighting part instead of Cal Fire.

10 SUPERVISOR YAROSLAVSKY: So where does the $3

11 million -- what's the purpose of the $3 million you

12 give us?

13 FEMALE SPEAKER: It's a contract back to Cal Fire.

14 SUPERVISOR YAROSLAVSKY: So you give us money. We

15 contract back?

16 MALE SPEAKER: We give you $18 million from the

17 Cal Fire side of the equation to do firefighting, the

18 State responsibility areas in LA County, and then

19 there's additional funding that I'm hearing from the

20 corrections side of the equation. So they do -- in

21 some -- in LA County, essentially LA fire is Cal Fire

22 for -- for many of the -- for about 500,000.

23 SUPERVISOR YAROSLAVSKY: So that's a -- those five

24 are operating now?

25 FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes.


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CONFIDENTIAL 24

1 SUPERVISOR YAROSLAVSKY: Okay. So that's nothing

2 new in terms of capacity.

3 The sixth one, how many beds are --

4 FEMALE SPEAKER: 120.

5 SUPERVISOR YAROSLAVSKY: So we're talking, all

6 this conversation about the fire camps really is a net.

7 If we use it for this wonderful rate, we are benefitted

8 by 120 beds?

9 MALE SPEAKER: You're not limited to LA County.

10 SUPERVISOR KNABE: I thought you said we're not

11 limited to LA County?

12 MALE SPEAKER: You can send them throughout the

13 State.

14 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: The other 57 counties --


16 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: -- with the same fire

17 camps that need to be filled. So LA County's not going

18 to be the ones filling the rest of the State's 57

19 counties' vacancies. They have their own vacancies to

20 be filled by their own inmates.

21 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah. Not every county has a fire

22 camp. There's -- there's only --

23 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: That means there's less

24 bed space available for these people.

25 MALE SPEAKER: All we're trying to say is that of


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CONFIDENTIAL 25

1 the 30,000 that you'll get -- not you'll get but the

2 State will get over three to four years, there's 4500

3 fire camp beds statewide that some counties may choose

4 to avail themselves of. And some of those, the State

5 will have to put into because counties aren't

6 interested, for example.

7 But it's not like you -- you can send them to

8 Northern California, Southern California. And, yes,

9 there's a cap. There's only so much room. We may be

10 able to expand that cap and make it even larger.

11 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: So is there already a law

12 that you can expand the cap?

13 MALE SPEAKER: There's no legal cap at 4,500 now.

14 MR. FUJIOKA: Determined by need. And the time

15 they spend in the camp is limited so that there's

16 constant turnover in those camps. They're not in there

17 for, you know, Matt, the average length of stay, I

18 heard, is not that long.

19 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: Eighteen months, it

20 seems --

21 MR. FUJIOKA: It's relatively short.


23 MR. FUJIOKA: -- that population keeps turning

24 over. And the parolees that would be coming to us,

25 their paroles are -- the parolee time -- parole time is


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1 a real long time. So there's that, what is it, about a

2 year for some of these folks?

3 FEMALE SPEAKER: So for parole violator --

4 MR. FUJIOKA: Yes.

5 FEMALE SPEAKER: -- you're talking about?

6 The maximum amount of time a parole violater

7 can get on a revocation is six months. They get

8 automatic half time credit on that. So you're really

9 talking about 90 days for parole violators.

10 Fire camps aren't for parole violators,

11 though. Fire camps are for people that have been

12 sentenced three years, two years, three years, a longer

13 term. They need the ability to program.

14 MALE SPEAKER: So almost half of the 30,000 beds

15 are these parole violators who serve these 90-day

16 terms. So really we're, in this conversation, we're

17 focused on the other 15,000 we're going to average a

18 couple of years, a year to two years as knowledgeable

19 groups for fire camps.

20 MR. FUJIOKA: Because that context is important

21 because this isn't a population that will be spending,

22 you know, three, four, five, or ten years in jail.

23 There is that turnover fact.

24 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: Why didn't you assign

25 these people to the fire camps on your own?


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1 FEMALE SPEAKER: We do. So under -- under --

2 under realignment, those --

3 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: So if you did, then how is

4 there going to be future vacancies that we will now

5 fill?

6 FEMALE SPEAKER: So the State of California will

7 have at full implementation about 30,000 fewer

8 offenders distributed through the 58 counties.

9 Those 58 counties, this is a solution for

10 those offenders that are going to serve two years plus

11 contract back going to the fire camps, nonserious,

12 nonviolent, nonsex offenders.

13 MALE SPEAKER: And our problem is that we're going

14 to be left with serious violent sex offenders and

15 strikers in prison. And a lot of those guys just

16 aren't eligible. They're too high of a safety risk,

17 and so we won't put them in camps.

18 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: But the N3s that you're

19 sending down to the 58 counties, why didn't you on your

20 own send them to the fire camps?

21 MALE SPEAKER: Well, we have sent them. It's not

22 the entire solution. It's not enough to get us off

23 from this Supreme Court order, for example.

24 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: Yeah, but now we're going

25 to assume responsibility for these people at our cost.


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2 FEMALE SPEAKER: -- they're on probation, so being

3 released.

4 MALE SPEAKER: It wasn't -- I mean, it's a -- we

5 would love to extend the fire camp program.

6 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: In other words, there is

7 really not enough forethought in this proposal, this

8 legislation. You should have engaged not just our

9 County but other counties at the table because, you

10 know, what, nine days, eight days is October 1st. And

11 these are the discussions that ought to have been done

12 two years ago.

13 This is bizarre. The fire is already out of

14 control, and we're talking about building a fire

15 department. And that is why it is frustrating on this

16 end because we're left with the responsibility and the

17 legal liability.

18 MALE SPEAKER: Well, I don't know what more we

19 could have done on the fire camp issue. We're talking

20 again --

21 GOVERNOR BROWN: Can I -- this is hard for me to

22 understand. So what -- can anybody tell me what Mike

23 just said versus whatever it is you're saying. How can

24 I put these two perspectives side by side because --



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1 MALE SPEAKER: I think the whole board --

2 GOVERNOR BROWN: -- these last five minutes back

3 and forth.

4 Does the -- do you understand --

5 MALE SPEAKER: The last thing I heard was the

6 argument that if -- if it's possible to expand from

7 4500 to some number higher than that --

8 GOVERNOR BROWN: Why don't we do it ourselves?

9 MALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible) you just solved your

10 problem that way. And the truth is that we can maybe

11 raise it 500 beds, 600 beds, 1,000 beds. We are still

12 29,000 short. And we have a Supreme Court order that

13 came down about it.

14 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: But we should have

15 partnered with you at the beginning, not at the end.

16 And we are not all inexperienced. We all have

17 experience, so it's not like it's the first day on the

18 job.

19 SUPERVISOR MOLINA: I know, but we're here today

20 now and have got to move forward. These folks are

21 coming soon, so --

22 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: Next point. On the IMD on

23 the mental health, are you going to assume full costs

24 on those?

25 Because right now it is the County's


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1 responsibility for mental health care, hospitalization

2 for those that are being sent down. But on the IMDs,

3 it's not.

4 MR. FUJIOKA: When that was discussed, we had a --

5 we had a pretty candid discussion on Friday. And the

6 position was taken that for this population, we -- we

7 actually bore the costs for this population.

8 The -- we had a better conversation with

9 access to the medical information, when the states file

10 this kind of broader statement, issues that speak to

11 medical information.

12 If you look at the first paragraph, although

13 it says there is understanding about our concerns that

14 prior to AB 109, parolees needing crisis mental health

15 care and hospitalization came to our facilities and so

16 that is something that -- it is what it is at this

17 point.

18 FEMALE SPEAKER: So it's not new today and two

19 years ago, if somebody had finished their State prison

20 sentence, which means by law secretary (inaudible) has

21 to release them and they were in need of mental health

22 crisis or hospitalization, the State would work with

23 the County to transition them to the appropriate

24 placement in the County. The State didn't pay for that

25 placement.


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1 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: Mental diseases you didn't

2 pay for?

3 FEMALE SPEAKER: For hospitalization release.

4 MR. SOUTHARD: So I think that's -- I'm Marvin

5 Southard. I'm the mental health director for LA

6 County. And I think the conversation is we -- we're

7 responsible for inpatient costs but not for long-term

8 lock placements like State hospital or IMD if they were

9 under the care of the parole outpatient clinic. So

10 that is the change that we are talking about.

11 FEMALE SPEAKER: I understand.

12 MR. SOUTHARD: And in our P population, we were

13 surprised by the high number of long-term care patients

14 who got from that process 10 -- 10 in State hospital,

15 around a hundred million deep. And the cost for those

16 services are considerable.

17 So -- so from our perspective, the financial

18 effect of this will really depend on the population

19 that's referred. If they mirror what the NRPs were and

20 have a very high end, then the costs will be difficult

21 to absorb.

22 If on the other hand they look like our first

23 look at this full first cohort that you have just

24 referred us, that doesn't look like as an acute

25 population and perhaps the issues will be manageable.


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1 So I think in the end, it will be determined

2 by the actual patients who actually show up and that --

3 that will be the --

4 GOVERNOR BROWN: Is there any way to know --

5 SUPERVISOR KNABE: That can be significant.

6 MR. SOUTHARD: We don't know -- I don't know if

7 there is a way to know ahead of time. We were asking

8 for the full information. And your staff, Governor,

9 did promise to get us everything that we needed this

10 week for the 80 or so patients that we know have mental

11 health issues within the prison system.

12 So we'll look at that and our plan was to look

13 at that first cohort and see what we -- see what they

14 were really like.

15 SUPERVISOR MOLINA: It's hard -- and part of

16 that --


18 GOVERNOR BROWN: And these are the -- that don't

19 go to prison but are kept here at the local level or

20 they parole violators?

21 MR. FUJIOKA: They are released on their --


23 MR. SOUTHARD: These are the people who are being

24 released from State prison --

25 GOVERNOR BROWN: Right. On parole.


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1 MR. SOUTHARD: -- on parole, and now --

2 GOVERNOR BROWN: And now you got to supervise

3 them.

4 MALE SPEAKER: Post -- post release community

5 supervision is the new phrase for it. Because they are

6 not officially on parole and are going to be supervised

7 at the County level.

8 GOVERNOR BROWN: Now, if people came off of parole

9 as they do, 10,000 every month leave the State prison,

10 at least I'm told that, 10,000, 120,000 a year. And

11 10,00 come in, by the way. So when they went a little

12 crazy, you had to go out and get them; right?

13 MR. SOUTHARD: Well, depending on what their needs

14 were, so --

15 GOVERNOR BROWN: Plus they got committed again to

16 another sentence or to a mental hospital, which is very

17 rare.

18 MR. SOUTHARD: Well, see that would be

19 (inaudible). Our issue with the NRP population was --

20 GOVERNOR BROWN: What is an NRP?

21 MR. SOUTHARD: Nonrevocable parole.

22 GOVERNOR BROWN: Oh, nonrevocable parole.

23 MR. SOUTHARD: That was the previous iteration of

24 this process. And with those individuals, the board

25 asked me to track the costs related to those


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1 individuals as they came into LA County.

2 GOVERNOR BROWN: Yeah.

3 MR. SOUTHARD: And we were surprised at the level

4 of acuity of that population and the costs associated

5 with that. So we tracked. As I said, within a year,

6 there were 10 that ended up in State hospital. That's

7 $200,000 a piece. So that's $2 million just in those

8 10 individuals. And then -- then there were 100 in IMD

9 beds.

10 SUPERVISOR YAROSLAVSKY: Which the State had --

11 previously had picked up the tab on. And now we would

12 be responsible for?

13 MR. SOUTHARD: Right. In -- and so a long term --

14 before this process, if somebody was being treated as a

15 parole outpatient clinic, the long-term care costs were

16 handled by the State. So this is the change that --

17 SUPERVISOR YAROSLAVSKY: So are we now responsible

18 for --

19 GOVERNOR BROWN: Wait.


21 MALE SPEAKER: I'm just wondering what portion of

22 the IMDs -- I mean, IMDs and State hospital costs for

23 County commits to institute for mental disease and for

24 County commits to State hospitals that are not, those

25 are funded out of 1991 realignment. They are not


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CONFIDENTIAL 35

1 funded out of the State general fund.

2 MALE SPEAKER: Well, the --

3 MALE SPEAKER: The only people that are funded out

4 of the State general fund in State hospitals are the

5 people who ended up being incompetent to stand trial or

6 are forensic commitments to the State hospitals. So I

7 am not tracking which ones are the ones that we are

8 currently paying for.

9 MR. SOUTHARD: So this is prior to those who were

10 seen for their treatment in the parole outpatient

11 clinics.

12 The parole outpatient clinics did the forensic

13 placements, if people required them. And then with the

14 nonrevocable parole, they were not entitled to parole

15 outpatient clinic services. And with that change which

16 has already taken place, we took on those costs. Those

17 costs were larger than we had expected, and the board

18 asked us to track those costs, and we did.

19 MALE SPEAKER: Got it. So we have the same

20 understanding that for the costs associated with

21 parolees who in the past when they receive services and

22 if the services that they require the County determines

23 the services they require are state hospital services,

24 that's paid for out of realignment and out of County

25 funds. It's not something the State paid for


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1 previously.

2 MR. SOUTHARD: If they were seen under the parole

3 outpatient clinic, the State did pay for them. If they

4 were just a general person who happened to have a

5 parole history, we paid for them. And so the change

6 was that as people lost their parole outpatient clinic

7 entitlement, they became ours and then we started to

8 pay for them.

9 So this is not AB 109. This is prior to

10 AB 109, but the board asked me to track that cost.

11 GOVERNOR BROWN: You're saying that's what we're

12 going to see, more of the same.

13 MR. SOUTHARD: More of the same. And -- so the

14 good news, the potential good news is this first cohort

15 looks different to us than the -- than the population

16 that we received previously --

17 GOVERNOR BROWN: Nonrevocable --

18 MR. SOUTHARD: -- let -- the NRP.

19 GOVERNOR BROWN: But don't they have the same

20 criteria?

21 MR. SOUTHARD: I have been trying to discuss this

22 with your staff, Governor, to figure out why the

23 difference; but these -- the review we have done so far

24 looks like there are less ill population than the one

25 we had previously seen.


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2 FEMALE SPEAKER: And part of the reason that that

3 was because many of these people haven't been in the

4 prisons very long. They are people in the communities

5 that have come in for relatively short stays, for

6 relatively minor offenses that are capped,

7 characterized as felonies that will come back. So

8 these are community people that have been with the

9 State for a much shorter period of time. We don't know

10 the whole answer to the question.

11 GOVERNOR BROWN: Nonrevokable parole are more

12 serious people.

13 FEMALE SPEAKER: They have been in the prison

14 system longer.

15 FEMALE SPEAKER: No nonrevokable parole were less

16 serious, they had --

17 GOVERNOR BROWN: Right. Well, are you saying

18 something different? This is complicated stuff here.

19 FEMALE SPEAKER: So -- so --

20 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: I know and that's why --

21 and, you know, it's -- October 1st is next week.

22 MALE SPEAKER: I guess where it gets

23 complicated --


25 GOVERNOR BROWN: -- worst part. We can figure it


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1 out.

2 SUPERVISOR YAROSLAVSKY: What we are trying to

3 zero in on, at least I am, is what is it that we were

4 paying for -- that you were paying for before, what is

5 it that we are now going to be asked to pay for that we

6 weren't paying for before, and are you compensating us

7 for it. That's the only question.

8 MALE SPEAKER: And I think basically our argument

9 would be now we are sending money with this population

10 because for both the -- the parole revocation side of

11 the equation as well as for the nonserious, nonviolent,

12 the N3s I guess is the term, we are providing the

13 County funding that is based on the County -- the State

14 costs which are not -- which include health, which

15 include mental health, which include programs, which

16 include administrative costs. And they're based on our

17 average costs and for our average costs, more of those

18 costs tend to be with the longer term, higher cost

19 inmates that we are keeping.

20 So the -- in the first year, the County will

21 receive roughly 80 percent of the average cost in the

22 State prison for the population but is transferring

23 over. Over time that funding kind of gets closer to a

24 70 percent, And then it will be your determination

25 where within the system you decide to invest those


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1 dollars.

2 But these are people who are going to be

3 coming forth with dollars for parolees to the extent

4 that they were a general parolee, a general Los Angeles

5 person, then those services were, you know, to the

6 extent they received general assistance or health care

7 or mental health, those were either borne by County

8 costs or part of 1991 and County costs for realignment.

9 So different people with different metrics but

10 the population from our perspective, they're shifting

11 with dollars.

12 GOVERNOR BROWN: You are saying we are sending

13 with dollars.

14 FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes.

15 GOVERNOR BROWN: And that's a sure -- but, I mean,

16 I think we have to look at it.

17 SUPERVISOR YAROSLAVSKY: Well, you're sending the

18 dollars based on a systemwide average. I mean, when he

19 tells me that 10 people costs $200,000 a pop, that's

20 your cost. Because they were previously in the State

21 mental hospitals. So that is $200,000 a pop.

22 SUPERVISOR MOLINA: No, they weren't in the State

23 mental hospital.


25 FEMALE SPEAKER: -- send them to the State.


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1 MALE SPEAKER: They were in corrections.

2 SUPERVISOR YAROSLAVSKY: Where were these 10

3 people?

4 MR. SOUTHARD: These 10 people had been in State

5 prison, and then when they came to us --

6 SUPERVISOR YAROSLAVSKY: Where were they

7 committed?

8 FEMALE SPEAKER: No. They were committed --


10 MR. SOUTHARD: They were committed when they came

11 to LA County.

12 SUPERVISOR YAROSLAVSKY: And where were they

13 committed?

14 MALE SPEAKER: State hospitals.

15 SUPERVISOR YAROSLAVSKY: State hospitals. Thank

16 you.


18 FEMALE SPEAKER: No. You sent them to the State

19 hospitals after they --

20 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, we sent them.


22 FEMALE SPEAKER: -- came back to the County, you

23 determined they needed State hospital care and you paid

24 for them.



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1 MALE SPEAKER: If the County sends them to the

2 State -- I mean, it actually is interesting you bring

3 it up because that is one of the successful models of

4 realignment where the counties have done a much better

5 job than the State did in providing a lottery of

6 services that has dramatically reduced the number of

7 people that are being committed to State hospitals from

8 your side of the equation.

9 We have forensic committees, and we have other

10 incompetents to stand trials and other people that are

11 coming into the State. But it is the type of system in

12 terms of providing community-based services that has

13 reduced the use of State hospitals. And it has been

14 cost effective and good for parolees.

15 GOVERNOR BROWN: Okay. But he's saying --


17 SUPERVISOR YAROSLAVSKY: Hang on a second.

18 When you said that the 10 people cost us

19 $2 million, now you're saying before the cost, they

20 picked it up, you are saying now it's going to be us.

21 Maybe I misunderstood what you said.

22 MALE SPEAKER: So what I was saying was before

23 the --

24 SUPERVISOR YAROSLAVSKY: We paid for it either

25 way.


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1 MR. SOUTHARD: Well,no.

2 Before the NRP, before the -- before the NRP,

3 if somebody was treated at the parole outpatient clinic

4 and that was their responsibility, the State decided

5 where they went, if they needed back to go prison,

6 if --

7 GOVERNOR BROWN: It's because if they do

8 something, it would be a parole violation or if they --

9 MR. SOUTHARD: Yeah. It just wasn't our issue.

10 It was the POC that made those decisions.

11 MALE SPEAKER: We never sent people to prison

12 because they had mental illness; right?

13 GOVERNOR BROWN: Yeah. We do because they have

14 some behavior --

15 MALE SPEAKER: Well, yeah, a crime.

16 GOVERNOR BROWN: -- And breaks the law. I mean,

17 if mentally ill people aren't breaking laws, no one

18 cares. Either they are running around with a knife or

19 hitting somebody or burning something, I mean --


21 MALE SPEAKER: -- easy to violate them.

22 GOVERNOR BROWN: It's a parole violation.

23 MR. SOUTHARD: Yeah. So then when they weren't

24 under the supervision of parole anymore, they became

25 ours, we didn't have that same ability. So the only


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1 safe place was State hospital. We put them in State

2 hospital.

3 SUPERVISOR YAROSLAVSKY: Okay. So who is that

4 population now that was previously, in your opinion, in

5 the State's jurisdiction and they were paying for it

6 that are now going to be our fiscal responsibility?

7 What is that?

8 MR. SOUTHARD: Supervisor, that is what I don't

9 know yet --

10 SUPERVISOR MOLINA: That's the unknown.

11 MR. SOUTHARD: -- because --

12 MALE SPEAKER: It's unknown.

13 MR. SOUTHARD: -- the cases that we're reviewing

14 now look less severe than the ones that we received

15 under NRP. And I don't know why.

16 MALE SPEAKER: If NRP is 10 people out of 5,000,

17 is the number of people that you're talking about State

18 hospital commitments under the previous system where

19 people were coming without money, because it was --

20 they were being discharged from parole, now there's

21 funding coming along with --

22 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: The County is not going to

23 be paying for this cost. The money coming from the

24 State will take care of those, is what you are saying?

25 FEMALE SPEAKER: And you are going to choose


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1 whether you treat them in the community or treat them

2 in some other way.

3 SUPERVISOR MOLINA: But I think the issue before

4 that is trying to make a determination as to what level

5 of acuity, and that's where we are still having a

6 problem. And I know that the department has sort of

7 said that, you know, files will come eventually.

8 Our issue is if they are coming on October the

9 1st, we need to know the level and either know the

10 medication, what kind of treatment they were getting,

11 and then we can make a determination.

12 Now, we don't know that because you have

13 checked off a couple of boxes, and I guess we were told

14 on the phone the other day that it was going to be

15 clinician to clinician.

16 And when I looked at those records the other

17 day, it has a phone number that was on there. The

18 problem is the phone doesn't go anywhere so it doesn't

19 have anyone you can talk to.

20 So we are going to need to get the clarity.

21 And some of these people have already been receiving

22 mental health, either medication or treatment as to

23 what the level is so we'll know what to prepare for,

24 and that's still an outstanding issue.

25 SUPERVISOR YAROSLAVSKY: Or how long they have


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1 been under treatment.


3 SUPERVISOR MOLINA: I know we talked about it, but

4 now you said you're going to transfer the files?

5 FEMALE SPEAKER: So I think we've worked through

6 it. We ran into a complex HIPAA issue for us. So what

7 we -- the files that you saw are files that we sent

8 from peace officer to peace officer.

9 And so I'm the director, but I can't know

10 whether or not somebody is schizophrenic or not under

11 HIPAA, not allowed to.

12 So we send those to probation and then the

13 initial plan was to have probation go through there and

14 identify those who have a mental health need and have

15 the clinician contact the clinician. As we tried to

16 implement, it was clear it didn't really work.

17 SUPERVISOR MOLINA: Thank you.

18 FEMALE SPEAKER: And, again, we appreciate the

19 feedback because we can't get better if people don't

20 say there's a better way to do this.

21 SUPERVISOR MOLINA: Sure.

22 FEMALE SPEAKER: So you guys have been

23 instrumental in working with our director of healthcare

24 to talk about a process by which we identify them; we

25 try to get their waiver signed. If they sign the


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1 waiver, we can send the documents without a problem.

2 If they don't sign the waiver, then we have to

3 work on a way for the designated clinician for LA

4 County to contact the designated clinician at the

5 institutions.

6 SUPERVISOR MOLINA: It just doesn't seem like it

7 should be that hard. I mean, you can get all of the

8 names together and even if not, I mean, because that is

9 something we should know.

10 MALE SPEAKER: So we worked that out.

11 SUPERVISOR MOLINA: You did?

12 MALE SPEAKER: So we have got all the --

13 SUPERVISOR MOLINA: The names --

14 MALE SPEAKER: -- all the clinicians and the

15 primary doctor.

16 SUPERVISOR MOLINA: Yes. Because I think that's

17 what the mental health department needs to know. That

18 way they can discuss the level --


20 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: Patients have given their

21 consent.

22 MALE SPEAKER: Almost all give their consent.


24 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: You have a ways of getting

25 that information to our people.


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1 MALE SPEAKER: Provider to provider.

2 FEMALE SPEAKER: Provider to provider.

3 MR. FUJIOKA: What we talked about on Friday and

4 then more of us talked to the CBCR folks who handle

5 these type of individuals. We have worked out a

6 protocol for that. Seems like a good protocol. The

7 protocol will go forward.

8 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: We did some more

9 problem-solving that -- on a conference call this

10 morning.

11 FEMALE SPEAKER: Good. Good.


13 FEMALE SPEAKER: Kudos to your team because your

14 team was leadership in helping us work through a system

15 that works. So thank you for your time.

16 MALE SPEAKER: I really appreciate that,

17 (inaudible).

18 MR. FUJIOKA: Next is the quality of files.

19 We asked that the files are complete,

20 accurate, and consistent because we're seeing 33

21 different facilities. It just wasn't a consistent

22 process.

23 Jerry has asked for specific examples, has

24 asked our probation staff where there are problems,

25 literally to scan and send those problems to her, and


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1 she'll address them as we move forward.

2 SUPERVISOR MOLINA: What about the people with the

3 wrong addresses? How did that get resolved?

4 MR. FUJIOKA: We have our sheriff's folks,

5 Governor mentioned that of this population going

6 forward, about 40 percent have wrong addresses.

7 The unfortunate reality is, as Terri said,

8 they -- they suffer the same problem prior to 109.

9 With people leaving jail, they would list an old

10 address. They'd list maybe even a false address. And

11 then a lot of folks are homeless, and they just have no

12 addresses or their family tends to be very transient

13 and they move. So that's just the problem.

14 When it comes to having the files, they

15 mention (inaudible) the growing pains with this

16 program. And they're working hard with their 33

17 facilities to make sure we get good information. So

18 there's a commitment.

19 GOVERNOR BROWN: When I was mayor of LA, I get the

20 list of (inaudible) --

21 MALE SPEAKER: Oakland.

22 GOVERNOR BROWN: Oakland.


24 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: That's next year, Jerry,

25 2013.


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1 GOVERNOR BROWN: Why not? I used to live here

2 for 25 years.

3 When I was the mayor of Oakland, I had a list

4 of the felony probationers in Alameda who lived in

5 Oakland. And we ran -- and I said pick three at random

6 names and send them a letter return receipt requested.

7 65 percent came back addressee unknown. The

8 others, somebody said something else. But, I mean, it

9 was like 15 percent signed it and sent it back. But,

10 you know, at least 65 percent aren't where you think

11 they are.

12 And I will bet your probation -- I would

13 wonder if your probation list isn't just like that

14 because they move around. They are homeless. It is

15 turbulent, it's bottom of the barrel. So I don't know.

16 This is a problem, isn't it? I mean, how do we --

17 FEMALE SPEAKER: It is a problem. So we send a

18 package. I think the sheriff went out and reported

19 that it was a 40 percent incorrect address rate. How

20 State parole handles it is when they show up to the

21 parole agent, the parole agent says this address didn't

22 work and so you need to tell me what you're going to do

23 and the parole goes by and checks that house to make

24 sure --

25 GOVERNOR BROWN: And I want to say one other


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1 thing. I noticed we had every parolee come to Oakland,

2 we had a little meeting for them, the Oakland cops.

3 About a third never showed up and that would be

4 constant. That maybe went up a little or down a little

5 bit. But 25-30 percent didn't show up. And that's

6 just the way it is out there, isn't it?

7 So you're never going to -- that -- that's not

8 going to change. You are not dealing with upstanding

9 citizens here.

10 MALE SPEAKER: We had the first parolee report

11 last week.

12 GOVERNOR BROWN: What?

13 MALE SPEAKER: We had the first parolee report

14 last week. He wasn't supposed to. He's not ours, but

15 he was homeless. He had -- he had -- he had a whole

16 host of problems. We did refer him to the parole

17 office. But, yeah, he reported last week and wanted

18 services.

19 MR. FUJIOKA: We sent him to Orange County.

20 (Inaudible.)

21 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: Do all 33 of your

22 institutions have the mental health checklist? Are

23 they using the same form or does each institution use

24 their own form?

25 MALE SPEAKER: No, they have the same form. I've


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1 got a copy of what you'll get.

2 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: Are they all on the same

3 form?

4 And how can we expedite the mental health

5 preparation information to our County mental health and

6 sheriff?

7 MALE SPEAKER: So what we have done is we said --

8 we've put LA County above everything else at this point

9 to say we want at least everybody we know that is going

10 to be getting out, even in the month of October, you

11 are going to get that information this week. And so

12 that is just a matter of resources.

13 And in the interim, we are working with the

14 receiver's officer on -- what would be great is an IT

15 solution where they can -- where mental heath staff

16 from the County can go online and provider to provider

17 with the right firewalls go in and just look online at

18 the right -- at their -- at their electronic medical or

19 mental health --


21 MALE SPEAKER: -- URH. And so I think that's

22 ultimately going to be the long-term solution.

23 SUPERVISOR MOLINA: Is this a new one or is

24 this -- because the one I saw was different.

25 MALE SPEAKER: This is -- this is -- this is more


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1 complete. This is typically what -- what you should

2 see.

3 SUPERVISOR MOLINA: So that's on a two-pager,

4 three-page one?

5 FEMALE SPEAKER: So let me clarify. The document

6 that goes to probation is what you saw. I think it is

7 called a 611, that will go to the probation department.

8 SUPERVISOR MOLINA: What is this?

9 FEMALE SPEAKER: That goes to mental health.

10 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

11 FEMALE SPEAKER: Those are the documents that go

12 to mental health.

13 MALE SPEAKER: This is the HIPAA issue?

14 MALE SPEAKER: But the check --


16 FEMALE SPEAKER: -- haven't seen one yet. Oh.

17 Okay. No wonder. We haven't --

18 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: But the checklist would be

19 the same for all 33 institutions that they sign?

20 MALE SPEAKER: You are looking?

21 MR. FUJIOKA: We had a commitment in the meeting

22 that we would get the same information that we would

23 get for the NRP participant. And so this is the same

24 copy that is going to be coming.

25 MALE SPEAKER: This is what Sharon Knox said that


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1 we typically have provided. Those are just the -- the

2 basics.

3 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: On the issue of liability,

4 our sheriff and our probation is not -- the sheriff is

5 immune but the probation officer is not. We need them

6 to have the same the immunity that the sheriff is going

7 to have relative to liability.

8 MR. FUJIOKA: Sir, at the meeting, we raised this

9 issue. And the governor's staff asked us for

10 information that speaks to that. There was a

11 commitment to review it quickly and get back to us. We

12 did raise that issue.

13 GOVERNOR BROWN: To what about?

14 MALE SPEAKER: There's some -- there's some

15 pretty -- you know, we will look at it.

16 MR. FUJIOKA: Yeah. We are still in the process

17 of gathering all that information, like I said.

18 MALE SPEAKER: There is some disagreements about

19 whether --

20 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: Is that legislative or can

21 that be done through executive order?

22 MALE SPEAKER: There is a question about whether

23 or not it can be done at all because it is looking at

24 applying federal constitutional law to and whether or

25 not it could be done for either -- I think the


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1 discussion in the past was looking at it as part of our

2 constitutional amendment.

3 But one of the things will be a question about

4 whether the State has the authority to do what the

5 language is trying to do rather than to apply federal

6 constitutional law to --

7 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: If they can do it for the

8 sheriff, why can't they do it for the head of probation

9 who is intricately involved with the same clientele?

10 MALE SPEAKER: We will get you an answer to that

11 question as soon as we have one. We are looking at the

12 language and --

13 GOVERNOR BROWN: Who is "we"?

14 MALE SPEAKER: Jim Humes (phonetic).

15 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: And can you postdate it so

16 that beginning October 1st, our probation department is

17 not liable?

18 MALE SPEAKER: We're taking a look at the

19 language, and we'll have an answer as quickly as we

20 can.

21 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: So what do you tell our

22 probation officers?

23 MALE SPEAKER: That we'll have an answer as soon

24 as we're done (inaudible).

25 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: That's the answer to your


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1 story and you are sticking to it.


3 MALE SPEAKER: There are disagreements among the

4 counties about whether it's -- A, it's necessary or --

5 a lot of counties believe, you know, we --


7 MALE SPEAKER: -- same population we had before.

8 MALE SPEAKER: -- you say it's necessary.

9 MALE SPEAKER: Those counties --

10 FEMALE SPEAKER: They are two different questions.


12 FEMALE SPEAKER: -- constitutional question. It

13 could be confusing to add the probation department for

14 that reason.

15 But the statutory remedy for adding -- putting

16 them in the statute is a different argument and makes

17 some sense. But we'll work this out. There are two

18 different questions.

19 MALE SPEAKER: And the third thing is that the way

20 in which the language was described was us providing

21 protection from liability (inaudible) the standards and

22 there's an argument in the way in which the language

23 was written. It says that the State is liable for an

24 action by the County. So we just need to work though

25 it.


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1 FEMALE SPEAKER: If we start fooling around too

2 much with it, it may be more confusing than we got it

3 right now because of the California Supreme Court

4 making the decision that it made.

5 MALE SPEAKER: Just to expand on that talking

6 about some of the counties, you know, differ on that.

7 You know, I have been involved in that battle CSAC.

8 That is basically urban versus rural county argument.

9 I mean, the urban counties are pretty adamant about

10 needing that information.

11 MR. FUJIOKA: The next has to do (inaudible). We

12 talked about eligibility of rejection criteria. And we

13 will not take any inmates that do not meet the

14 (inaudible) criteria. That was easy. There was

15 absolute agreement with that.

16 The next has to do with the residency

17 requirements. That's complicated by the fact that it's

18 difficult to verify the addresses. Of course, where we

19 can verify that the addresses is just flat out wrong

20 and person doesn't live in LA county or was convicted

21 in LA County, we won't be receiving that individual.

22 There will be a lot of folks who are just

23 homeless.

24 We have had, this is not part of our

25 agreement, but we had one of our CPOs mention they


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1 wanted emergency appropriation of $5 million to house

2 these folks. And I shared that at the last meeting,

3 Friday's meeting.

4 And in the old system, when someone came out

5 on parole, the State did not provide housing for these

6 individuals. So these CPOs are going to come to us and

7 ask us for money to house these folks. And that is not

8 part of the funding. That was never done in the past,

9 and it is not an issue we can address going forward.

10 The severe mental health conditions, we took a

11 position that we won't accept. It means with severe

12 mental health, you know, the State was pretty direct:

13 Either work with us in LA Department of Mental Health,

14 develop enhanced protocols to transport and transfer

15 individuals requiring immediate hospitalization. But

16 they can't -- they can't keep these folks beyond the

17 set violation of law.

18 We talked about liability. We also talked

19 about the 120-day pre-release notification because when

20 this program was starting to evolve, the State said we

21 would receive the packages 120 days prior to their

22 release from State prison. While there is a goal to

23 hit that 120-day period, but right now there will be

24 some coming as you know in October, November, December.

25 As we get towards February, we'll start to hit that


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1 120-day period. That was that commitment.

2 I think lastly transportation. There was a --

3 I think it's just a bad rumor that we would be asked to

4 transport the inmates from State prison to LA County on

5 their release.

6 CBCR is working on that issue. Especially

7 transporting those with special handling needs.

8 Mainly --

9 FEMALE SPEAKER: Acutely mentally ill, hard-core

10 gang members, anybody that probation thinks they need

11 to work with us on getting them transported down post

12 (inaudible).

13 MR. FUJIOKA: The last thing has to do with

14 pre-enrollment in Medi-Cal. There is 20 percent of the

15 population where they're working on and our mental

16 health will be working with the State Department of

17 Health and Human Services to look at pre-enrollment.

18 The State also mentioned that if we get them

19 in our court system, it would be nice if we could start

20 enrolling these people and that is what we should look

21 at.

22 MALE SPEAKER: All right. I think that's the one.

23 To me, it's a key issue that's missing in this

24 conversation. While you have a gun to your head, we

25 have a gun to our head, as well, too. And it's not


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1 just simply releasing 30,000 prisoners, you know, to

2 create vacancies.

3 I mean, there is wrap-around services for

4 whatever impact those 30,000 folks have to the ones

5 that you have to let out because to make room for the

6 30,000, all the entitlement programs kick in. And that

7 is a severe economic hit to counties. I mean, we are

8 required by law to do it. So, I mean, we have so many

9 unknowns to deal with.

10 And obviously the constitutional amendment is

11 a critical element of all that and trying to put that

12 together to make that happen. And, you know, I was

13 part of the team that helped write with your office on

14 those many weekends and try and convince my colleagues

15 and they said, "No way." And they proved me wrong. So

16 they have been kicking me ever since about the

17 constitutional amendment and agreements.

18 And it's a game changer for everybody, for

19 every county, particularly the largest county in the

20 state and the nation.

21 MALE SPEAKER: What are the prospects, Governor?

22 GOVERNOR BROWN: Well, we're going to have to get

23 it. If we don't get the votes in the legislature, we

24 got to start an initiative and start it pretty soon.

25 Next couple of months.


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1 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: I'm opposed to increasing

2 taxes. You ought to use existing funds.

3 But let's say you did the tax increase. Let's

4 say it did pass. You don't start collecting money

5 until 2014. What do we do in the meantime? The

6 bill, if it's passed in 2012 --

7 GOVERNOR BROWN: You'll get the money --

8 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: -- then the money is

9 collected in 2013.


11 GOVERNOR BROWN: You'll get it in the next budget.

12 If you don't get in the budget, I'll veto the budget.

13 I've shown I can do that.

14 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: But you are looking at

15 close to 2014.

16 MALE SPEAKER: Last year's budget already provided

17 dedicated ongoing State revenues for this purpose. So

18 the money for realignment going forward is locked in.

19 What was only --

20 MALE SPEAKER: Only for one year, though.

21 MALE SPEAKER: The funding stream is actually

22 permanent and going forward.

23 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: Permanently?

24 MALE SPEAKER: Yes. And it's the allocation that

25 was one year. And the allocation was one year because


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1 we got the request from County that said we want to see

2 more about where the costs are coming up in the system

3 before knowing what the ongoing structure for

4 allocating funds is.

5 But there is a penny in the State sales tax

6 that now goes into the local revenue fund that is

7 permanently dedicated to realignment. So there is --

8 GOVERNOR BROWN: So it's a special fund.

9 MALE SPEAKER: There is ongoing funding for the

10 program.

11 GOVERNOR BROWN: And they can't change it without

12 a bill.

13 MALE SPEAKER: Correct.

14 GOVERNOR BROWN: And they can't have a bill unless

15 I sign it.


17 GOVERNOR BROWN: So at least for the next couple

18 of years, they can't change it.

19 MALE SPEAKER: So like two-thirds votes of the

20 legislature can't change that?

21 FEMALE SPEAKER: They can change it, but Jerry's

22 got to sign it.

23 GOVERNOR BROWN: Yeah.

24 FEMALE SPEAKER: And he said he won't.

25 SUPERVISOR KNABE: Oh, you have to sign it?


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1 GOVERNOR BROWN: You can't stop me. It's not like

2 an appropriation where you can just take it out.

3 SUPERVISOR KNABE: And unlike Prop 73 where

4 they're inside that bond thing, there was a little item

5 that said with two-thirds votes, they can redirect the

6 dollars.

7 MALE SPEAKER: It requires -- it requires a

8 signature of the governor. I mean, so the money is

9 dedicated for this purpose. It's the allocation that

10 has to be done through a subsequent bill, and it's just

11 creating kind of (inaudible) how it is that you want

12 the dollars to come together.

13 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: Without the constitutional

14 amendment, then the money is still going to be in there

15 for realignment.

16 MALE SPEAKER: It is.


18 MALE SPEAKER: Just like in the same mechanism

19 that it's been here since 1994 for (inaudible)

20 realignment.

21 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: What is the purpose of the

22 constitutional amendment?


24 FEMALE SPEAKER: It's the money.

25 GOVERNOR BROWN: Going forward, many people would


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1 feel more secure.


3 SUPERVISOR YAROSLAVSKY: You may have a different

4 governor during a bad year, decides "Well, we're going

5 to take it out" --


7 GOVERNOR BROWN: -- liberals from San Francisco.

8 MALE SPEAKER: The only purpose of it is to

9 provide -- to deal with all the --

10 SUPERVISOR YAROSLAVSKY: -- you're from

11 San Francisco.

12 GOVERNOR BROWN: I'm from LA.

13 MALE SPEAKER: He's from Oakland.

14 MALE SPEAKER: Today he's LA. He was there last

15 night (inaudible).

16 MALE SPEAKER: Well, I mean, I think all these --

17 our commitment is to -- that this isn't -- this doesn't

18 stop when -- when October 1 comes, we're still here.

19 We're at the table. If we -- if you find something in

20 the department of mental health that we can do better,

21 my pledge is we -- we stay and we keep doing it until

22 we're --

23 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: This is the problem. None

24 of this would have happened without the letter that the

25 board sent to you. And, again, it's at the end of the


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1 tunnel when it should have been at the beginning. So

2 when you tell us you're always there for us, you

3 weren't there because we have been bitching and

4 screaming about this beyond --

5 GOVERNOR BROWN: Okay. (Inaudible) Zev, go to

6 your office and talk about --

7 SUPERVISOR YAROSLAVSKY: That was when you were

8 trying to snow me on the realignment thing.

9 MALE SPEAKER: So, I mean, that's the problem.

10 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah. We talked in the garage.

11 Remember?

12 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

13 GOVERNOR BROWN: So I've been here awhile. I

14 talked to you, Mike. I talked to these two characters.

15 Okay.

16 FEMALE SPEAKER: But in the middle of these

17 people --

18 SUPERVISOR YAROSLAVSKY: No. You have been very

19 responsive. And I think you try to be. Our problem is

20 you and the rest of us look at it from a 30,000-foot

21 view, but we are in a kind of a descending pattern

22 where we are starting to see if from the 1500-foot

23 view, and it is scary because there are --

24 MALE SPEAKER: Too many unknowns.

25 SUPERVISOR YAROSLAVSKY: -- a whole lot of


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1 unknowns and --

2 MALE SPEAKER: Life and death.

3 SUPERVISOR YAROSLAVSKY: -- the amount of money

4 you are sending us, it is interesting. It's 80 percent

5 going toward 70 percent. I don't know whether that's a

6 good call or not. I don't think any --

7 SUPERVISOR KNABE: Well, we can (inaudible) just

8 trying to sell the idea what we're contracting back

9 with the State on beds. I mean, you know, those kinds

10 of issues are confusing the public on this.

11 And the first one that falls through the

12 cracks, particularly the mental health piece, we are

13 all going to pay a big price.

14 FEMALE SPEAKER: Well, there is no question we

15 don't have enough resources to do everything we need to

16 do. There is just no question coming in in January of

17 health and human services of the $12 billion that were

18 reduced, we took $6 billion out of health and human

19 services.

20 I'm dealing with it all day and every day at

21 every level from adult day health to in-home supportive

22 services to mental health to the hospitals to the

23 prisons.

24 There is not enough to do all the things that

25 we need to do. And we're all in partnership. I mean,


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1 the beauty to me of realignment is changing the nature

2 of the relationship between the State and the counties

3 and working together side by side.

4 These are people that are coming from the

5 counties, they go into the prisons for a while, and

6 they come back. The idea that you can do it

7 differently and better than we've done it at the State

8 is a challenge.

9 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: What have held the

10 spending on compensation for employees. We had three

11 years with no cost of living, et cetera.

12 FEMALE SPEAKER: We had a state --

13 SUPERVISOR ANTONOVICH: -- officer, God bless

14 them. But really, with civil service reform, you

15 need -- that man that was in San Francisco that was

16 incapacitated that had a correctional officer in the

17 hospital room, outside the hospital room, and a

18 supervisor to supervise them, I don't know if there was

19 two supervisors, eating up all that money. I mean,

20 you've got to reform.

21 This bo

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