transcript of public meeting minutes

QRIGINA)ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY

METAL BANK SUPERFUND SITE

PUBLIC HEARING HELD:

WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 7, 2005

; 7:00 p.m. until 9:00 p.m.iSt. Hubert Catholic High School

7320 Torresdale Avenue

Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

EPA MEMBERS:

WENDY JASTREMSKI

JOHN MONSEES

LINDA DIETZ

'age 1

SDMSDocID 2054319

III

ROYALCOURT R E P O R T I N G

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www.royalcourtreporting.corn

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2 ! I N D E X

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5 PRESENTATION

6 AUDIENCE COMMENTS:

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8 ' Michael McGeehan

9 i Kathy Myers

10 ; Carol Collier

11 ; Ken Warren

12 . ; Loretta Kelly

13 : Stewart Golene

14 Pam Bishop

15 ; Jule Slavet

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PROCEEDINGS

MS. JASTREMSKI: Welcome. Thank you

all very much for coming out tonight.

Unfortunately, we don't have a sound system.

So, if you can't hear the presenters, I

would ask you to move forward.

The overall program for this evening

will be that there will be a brief

presentation given by the U.S. Environmental

Protection Agency. Then, following that,

we'll take some questions on the

presentation; or, if you just want to make

comments to have them in the public record,

we have a stenographer here this evening who

is going to be recording all the events.

At the end of the presentation, I

will stand up again and moderate the

questions and/or comments. At that time,

I'll go over these instructions again, but

you will have to come forward so that

Michelle, our stenographer, can hear you.

State your name and spell your last name so


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she can get it properly on the record.

My name is Wendy Jastremski. I'm

the community-involved coordinator assigned

to the site. I work for the EPA. We also

have some other EPA people here tonight.

Peter Lesnia (ph.). We have two medial

project managers, Linda Dietz and Pat

McManus. We have Katherine Liebert (ph.),

who is one of our congressional liaisons.

We have Melissa Karlicek, who

represents the contractor who works for EPA,

at the sign-in table. If you didn't get a

chance to sign in, please sign in on your

way out. That way you can make sure you

remain on our mailing list. There's also

some of the flyers that we sent out

recently.

We have John Monsees from EPA. He's

our attorney. Then we have a couple of

representatives here tonight from the U.S.

Department of Justice, Eric Williams and

Katherine Debbs (ph.).

At this point, I'd like to introduce

John Monsees, who will be speaking first.


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1 ;' MR. MONSEES: Thank you, Wendy.

2 ' Good evening, everyone. My name is

3 j John Monsees. I'm with the office of

4 | regional counsel in Philadelphia for the

5 I EPA.

6 ; We're here to talk tonight about the

7 ! Metal Bank site, and it is on Cottman Avenue

8 ; and Milnor Streets. It's a site that's been

9 ; the subject of litigation now for about 25

10 ( years. It's the site of a former

11 transformer recycling facility that was

12 owned and operated at one time by The Union

13 Corporation, Metal Bank of America and two

14 gentlemen by the name of John and Irvin

15 Schorsch.

16 In 1980, the United States brought

17 suit against Metal Bank, Union Corporation

18 and the Schorsch individuals for various

19 environmental violations, mainly PCB

20 contamination at the site that was a product

21 of the activities that transpired at the

22 ; site.

23 - When litigation was filed in 1980,

24 ' thereafter, the Defendants, the two

jy S~\y A T ! 230 South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, 19Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax: (215)


. 1 ' ' corporations and the two individuals,

2 subsequently sued various utility companies

3 that had sent transformers to the site, and

4 those utilities were third-party Defendants

5 in the litigation.

6 During the case, which started way

7 back in 1980, the EPA began studying the

8 site with the assistance of the utility

9 companies under various administrative

10 . procedures and collected a lot of data about

11 ! the site, about the contamination at the

12 < site, about the contamination in thei

13 ' adjacent river and adjacent mudflat in thati

14 : area.

15 j In 2002, there was a trial held ini

16 I the United States District Court for thei

17 | Eastern District of Pennsylvania beforei

18 , Chief Judge Giles. This trial concerned two

19 : primary issues: Did the site present an

20 imminent and substantial endangerment to the

21 public health and the environment? If so,

22 were the Defendants, the two corporations

23 and the two individuals, liable under the

24 law for that contamination?

T) f\\7~ A T 23° South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102JtVXy I £\Ls Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax: (215|J^£)7Q5Q Q C C


.1 • The Court issued a substantial

2 ; opinion in January of 2003, answering in the

3 ! affirmative to both issues, finding in the

4 United States' favor. Thereafter, in the

5 , Spring of 2003, the two corporate Defendants

6 ; filed for bankruptcy.

7 | Through the bankruptcy proceeding,

8 the United States negotiated a settlement

9 : with the corporate Defendants, whereby they

10 j established a funding mechanism to

11 l contribute up to about $14.2 million to

12 clean up the Metal Bank site. Some of that

13 , money has already been paid, and some of

14 i that money under the bankruptcy settlementi

15 ! will be made available in -the future as

16 costs are incurred to clean up the site.

17 By the end of the year 2003, we had

18 j two Defendants left in the lawsuit, the twoi

19 , individuals, the Schorsch Brothers and we

20 had the utility companies. At that point in

21 , time, the Judge, because this matter was

22 ' still pending in court, was scheduling ai

23 '< trial to decide what had to be done at the

24 site to clean it up, what was the

230 South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax: (215) 732-7655^ R 5 Q Q Q 5


1 • appropriate remedy.

2 ; The Court had originally scheduled

3 ' that trial to begin in 2000, but, before we

4 got there, the Court suggested to all the

5 : parties that we sit down with a mediator andj

6 ' try to explore settlement of the case, and

7 the parties agreed to do that. We went out

8 : and got a mediator and started to explore a

9 i settlement.i10 ' Over the course of many months, we

11 negotiated a settlement of this case. The

12 \ settlement has been memorialized in the!

13 ! proposed consent decree, which essentially

14 are legal documents, which are settlement

15 contracts. They are entered into with the

16 ; United States subject to approval by theI

17 , Court. Under the consent decrees, the

18 parties signing them, the parties and the

19 utilities, will be obligated to do various

20 ! things.

21 i As part of our global settlement of

22 , the Metal Bank litigation and the meeting

23 ; tonight, we're going to talk about theiI

24 ; proposed remedy, what the utilities have

T) fi\T A T 230 South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax: (215) 73$-ffc§Q 0058


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agreed to do, and we can also talk about the

money that the Schorsch Defendants are going

to pay to contribute to the cleanup of the

site.

Now, specifically, Defendant Irvin

Schorsch will pay the United States and the

utilities a total of $9 million and he will

also guarantee $2 million of the settlement

funding arrangement set up by the bankrupt

Defendants. Defendant John Schorsch will'

pay $600,000 to the United States and the

utilities. The money paid by the Schorsch

Defendants will be split between the United

States and the utility groups according to a

formula.

The United States will collect $5.5

million, and the utility companies will take

$3.5 million from Mr. Irvin Schorsch. The

$600,000 paid by Defendant John Schorsch

will be split $550,000 to the utility groups

and $50,000 to the United States for past

costs.

The money that the Schorsch

Defendants will be paying to the utility


230 South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax:


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companies will be dedicated towards paying

the cost of cleaning up the site. The work

will be performed by the utilities and their

contractors. The consent decrees

memorialize all of those terms. They have

been submitted. They have been issued for

public comment and advertised in the federal

register.

We have received some written

comments from various parties, and they will

be considered, as will the comments that we

receive from you folks in the audience

tonight.

Now I'd like to introduce to you

Linda Dietz. She's the remedial project

manager for the site. She will explain the

details and the scope and nature of the

proposed remedy, the actual cleanup work

that will be done at the site under these

proposed settlements.

MS. DIETZ: Good evening.

As John said, I am the current RPM

on the Metal Bank site, and I have been

involved with the site since 1998. I was


230 South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax: (215) ̂ |̂ ?5 fj Q C Q


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involved during the negotiations with all

the parties and the settlement and the

trial, and I'm excited to be here tonight

because we have a remedy that the parties

have agreed to implement and we have funding

to get that remedy implemented. So I'm

.hopeful that we can get through this last

phase so that we can get the cleanup

accomplished at the site.

At the conclusion of this phase of

the project, I have a new person that's

going to take over, Pat McManus. Pat will

be the RPM on the site and do the oversight

of the remedial action when we get to that

phase.

Basically, the site is located at

Cottman Avenue, and we're here tonight at

St. Hubert's High School. This is Cottman.

This is 195 going north. The site is

located just off of the Cottman Avenue exit.

This is St..Vincent's School right here.

This is currently a scrapyard, Morris Iron &

Steel.

As you can see up here, the photo is

• IB


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dated 1973. I wanted to give you a

photograph from the historical operations,

so that you can see some of the things that

actually caused the problem that we have at

the site.

Today the site -- this waste

material is not located on the site. It's

in a grassy area that was covered over back

in the 1980s by the site owner. The site

owner removed the material from the site and

put the cover over this, but what led to

that contamination was that there was a PCB

transformer operation located at this

facility.

The transformers were brought into

the site. The oil was drained out. There

was an underground storage tank located in

this location where the oil was put in that

tank. There was a release from that tank

back in the '70s. The owner did remove oil

from the subsurface at this site, but what

was left was residual oil contamination in

ground water, soil and subsurface soil,

sediment in the river, contamination.

• •a


230 South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax: (215i &&?(>f$n

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. * There's still presently oil on the ground

2 ' water.

3 Up in this location where the

4 buildings are on the site -- and I'll give

5 I you another graphic, but we call this thei

6 i courtyard area, this area called the

7 ; southern area -- and I'll refer to that as

8 ! the southern area -- and these are the

9 ! mudflat sediments, river sediments. That's

10 how we'll designate each of these locations.

11 ' Basically, as a result of the

12 i operations, we have contaminated soil, wei

13 ! have contaminated sediment and we have

14 '' contaminated ground water that contains pil.

15 When you dig down into the subsurface and

16 observe ground water, you still see oil on

17 the subsurface.

18 The contaminants of concern that

19 ' we're trying to address through this cleanup

20 | are polychlorinated biphenyls which were the

21 ' chemicals that were used in transformer oil,

22 dioxins which was the result of burning of

23 transformer parts on the site that led to

24 the dioxin contamination in the soil,

-Q f~\\7' A T ; 23° South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102XVA^/ 1 AJ-/ Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax: (21*)rfffi:2fF6*&} r o


. 1 : inorganic metals, polycyclic aromatic

2 : hydrocarbons which is another chemical which

3 ' is in the oil and settled in the ground

4 : water at the site.

5 ,' Our goal of this cleanup is to

6 : reduce the source of PCBs that currently

7 , impact the Delaware River. Another goal is

8 to prevent direct contact with any of that

9 ' PCB contamination. There's contamination on

10 , the surface soil in the courtyard. All the

11 : other contamination at the site is in thei

12 • subsurface. So, in order for a person to bei

13 p exposed, they would have to dig down into

14 ' the subsurface like a construction worker,i

15 r someone of that nature.

16 ! Another goal of our cleanup is to

17 i prevent unauthorized use of the site. If wei

18 ; didn't do this cleanup, 30 years from now

19 ' when we're all out of here and not worrying

20 : about this site, if somebody came and tried

21 to build houses or grow something, things of

22 ; that nature -- so we have things in place

23 that will prevent, you know, an unauthorized

24 use.

23° South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax: (215) 73^-%S5n n n r •


1 1 ' This is a schematic of the courtyard

2 area. As I said earlier, the courtyard areai

3 . -- there are two, this red area, these two

4 red areas. These are areas that have PCB

5 ' contamination that's greater than 10 parts

6 per million, and this is on the surface.i

7 So one of the cleanups of this area

8 ; will be to excavate those two areas to a

9 ; depth of 2 feet, take that soil off site to

10 ! an appropriate disposal facility. Once this

11 ' soil is removed, that surface runoff from

12 , those two areas will no longer impact the

13 ' Delaware River.

14 Another piece of the cleanup in the

15 ' courtyard is this one remaining building onI

.16 site. The other buildings in this area were

17 demolished by the site owner in 1999 I

18 ' believe. This one remaining building is

19 ' basically a corrugated steel shell building

20 with a concrete floor and a set of railroad

21 , spurs in there.

22 i So the only other piece is just to

23 ' power wash the floor, remove any particlei

24 ' contamination and put a coating on the

23° South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania^!9102Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax: (21 " ~ " "


.! floor. Once those two excavations are

2 completed, the remaining surface of thei

3 courtyard will be excavated another 1 footi

4 just to scrape off any other contamination

5 that's potentially there.i

6 ' You know, we do a lot of sampling,

7 ' but there's a potential that you can't get

8 every single area. So they'll scrape thati9 ' off and cap it with another 1 foot of clean

10 ' soil.

11 On this one, I'm going to discuss

12 the southern area cleanup. The maini

13 : components of the southern area remedy are

14 i excavation of soil which are these three red

15 locations. This excavation goes down to the

16 ; water table, which is the surface of the

17 i ground water at the site. This excavation

18 ; also goes to the water table, and this

19 ': excavation will go approximately 5 feet

20 • below the water table.

21 ' The purpose of these excavations are

22 , to remove hot spot soils. How I would like

23 ; to explain is that these are all locations

24 i that are above 25 parts per million PCBs.

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All the contamination is in the subsurface

below grade, and those locations currently

impact ground water.

When you dig into the subsurface,

you see oil in the side walls of the

excavation. You see oil in the water table.

So the purpose is to remove the oil during

the excavation and also remove that

contaminated soil. The soil from those

three locations will go off site to an

appropriate disposal facility.

In addition to the excavation, there

is still an underground storage tank that is

in the ground here. It is not full. It has

a sandy material in it, but part of the

excavation of this area will be to pull that

tank and properly remove it from the ground.

Once those excavations are complete, a cover

will be placed -- another soil cover will be

placed, a 2-foot cap over the entire area,

to prevent any direct contact with any

contamination which would be present, but

the entire area has some level of

contamination in it.

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So the purpose of this removal is to

remove the hot spots, which will make it

protective for future use as a recreational

use or some type of open space use, but it

will not be -- this cleanup is not

protective for say building a home or

something like that, condominiums.

In addition to the soil excavation,

there's going to be a sheet pile wall that

is placed. It will be driven down into the

subsurface, and the wall will extend from

somewhere in this location around here to

this location. Basically, the purpose of

this wall is to prevent the migration and

the movement of that ground water to this

river area. That wall will reduce that

migration.

Then, in addition to the wall, we

have the removal of the sediments. The

lighter shaded area will be excavated.

These are areas that have been defined as

having contamination above 1 part per

million.

In addition, this graphic or this




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. 1 • picture has this northern area. It's kindI

2 of cut off, but, if you want to come up

3 ' after the presentation, the northern area

4 | extends up a little further in front of the

5 : neighboring property, which is a scrapyard

6 I calls Morris Iron & Steel.

7 i So these three areas and this

8 mudflat will be excavated. They will use

9 . land-based equipment with excavators that

10 reach out into the sediment, dig up the

11 sediment, bring the sediment1up into this

12 southern area. They will dry it out in thei

13 southern area. The water that comes off

14 that sediment will be treated on site prior

15 ; to discharge into the City's sewer system.

16 Once the excavation takes place,

17 this area will be backfilled with clean

18 sediment. These two areas that are beyond

19 the reach of a land excavator will be capped

20 : with a sediment cap, a 2-foot cap, that is

21 , yet to be designed, but that is part of the

22 settlement. The cap, once designed and

23 placed into the subsurface, will have

24 long-term monitoring associated with that to

23° South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax: (215) 732-fl6^5§ Q 0 0 6 9


; 1 • make sure that it remains in place. This

i

2 . area up here will also be capped in front of

3 ' the other property.

4 . In addition to the cleanup of thet

5 i southern area, once we get through the

6 | courtyard excavation, the southern area

7 | cleanup -- let's go back to the last

8 ; schematic. I just missed one point that I

9 ! want to point out.

10 i Once this excavation work is

11 ! completed, we intend to put a liner, a

12 ' geotextile liner over the entire area prior

13 ! to 2 feet of clean cap. Really, the purpose

14 ' of that liner is that it's not -- it doesn't

15 ; prevent migration of water through the

16 i subsurface. It's just a barrier so that, ifi17 i there's any future activity at this site, ifi

18 : somebody comes in and excavates, it's more

19 ' of a physical marker so that people will seei

20 a liner and maybe think that they should

21 call somebody and check into this. It will

22 also be part of our public education

23 program,

24 Now, the purpose of that graphic is

23° South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax: (2fl5|>?*5?-)7C^ 7 fl


1 ( • to show you, once the physical construction

2 ' is completed -- and we expect that the

3 physical construction could take somewhere

4 ' from eighteen months to two years -- we will

5 : have monitoring at this site for the long

6 i term. What we intend to do is to monitor

7 ; ground water and we will monitor sediment.

8 ! The locations that we have put up on

9 ; the screen tonight, we intend to install new

10 ' monitoring wells as part of this

11 ; construction activity. The monitoring wells

12 are these GW locations. These wells will

13 , monitor ground water for PCBs, for dioxins,

14 ; for the polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons,

15 , for the contaminants that we've found at

16 this site.i

17 , So we'll use that data, and then we

18 : will also be monitoring these river

19 locations. These are approximate locations

20 at this point, but these MB locations, we

21 have locations around the site, and theni

22 we'll have the location upstream, and we'll

23 also have a location across the river and

24 across the mudflat containment area.

BM

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i

1 • Those locations will be monitored,

2 and we'll use that data to determine whetheri

3 : we have an effective remedy. The way we do

4 ] that is we collect data at a certain

5 ; frequency. In the first few years, we do it

6 quarterly so that we can see what's going on

7 ! with the remedy. We accumulate the data

8 i over a period of five years from the start

9 I of construction.i

10 So we'll review the information ati11 i our five-year review to determine whether we

12 had an effective remedy and whether the

13 ; sediment areas remain clean below 1 PPM for

14 : PCBs. If they're not clean, then we have to

15 i start looking into, okay, is it from the

16 site, is it from the river because we have a

17 ; lot of background contamination going on ini

18 the river that's not site-related. So

19 i that's how we look at that data.Ii

20 [ If we find that the site -- our

21 ' feeling is that we will have a cleaned-up

22 site, but, if we found that that remedy was

23 ', not effective, then we would go back, review

24 ! the data and try to find out what's going on

TJ {~\\T A T 23° South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102_tV\_/ JLX\-L Phone: m.1^ 712-(\(&5 Tnll Frppt CSSS^ 59S-7277 Fay ^?ft =© f3fl-ftRPhone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax:


. 1 • and possibly, you know, look at further

2 . action at the site.

3 ' The other piece to this is

4 ' controlling the future use of the site.

5 '• Like I had said before, we are always going

6 to be watching this site. EPA has a

7 ! responsibility to do five-year reviews at

8 ' the site for the long haul, because we are

9 : leaving waste in place here. So we have a

10 i minimum of six five-year reviews because it

11 , stretches out over 30 years.

12 : One of the issues that we will be

13 ; looking at is we're going to work with the

14 , parties that are going to be implementing

15 our construction here and coming up with

16 , some type of warning signs and a fence. Ouri

17 : goal is not to fence the site so that no onei

18 can ever go in there, but it's to put a

19 fence in an appropriate way so that we can

20 make sure people can't get hurt.

21 For instance, in this location,

22 there will be a sheet pile wall. Obviously,

23 we would have a fence on the top of that

24 ' wall so somebody couldn't fall into the

23° South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax:


1 • river. The elevation here is 15 feet above

2 the river area. Then, you know, there's an

3 active business here, so we would want to:

4 , put a fence there.

5 We're trying to think about this

6 ' property and bring the property into some

7 , form of reuse so that the community can havei

8 access to the river. Believe it or not,

9 , it's a beautiful location right in this

10 area. St. Vincent's is a very nice area,

11 and then you have Quaker City Yacht Club,

12 which is just south of St. Vincent's. So

13 . it's a real nice location.i

14 ( One of the things that we have in

15 place at this point in time is, during the

16 , bankruptcy settlement that John Monsees had

17 spoken about earlier, the owner of the

18 , property put deed restrictions on the

19 . property to limit the future use, and that's

20 ; just so you couldn't drill the well and

21 drink the ground water, which you can't do

22 : .in Philadelphia anyway, or dig into the

23 j subsurface. You know, the restrictions say

24 : that you can't disturb the cap, those types

T) f~\\7' A T 23° South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax:


. l - o f things.

2 ! In addition to that, we have aI

3 , public education program that we want to get

4 out to the community. What we found overi

5 ' the course of this site is that we know we

6 have a fish advisory in the Delaware River,i

7 but what we found is that there are a lot of

8 people that don't know anything about that

9 . fish advisory.i

10 . What we have come up with here is

11 . that we would like to try to reach those

12 populations that are non-English speaking

13 ; populations. Our fish advisories are in

14 ; English and maybe Spanish, but there are

i

15 other populations that are eating fish and

16 they just don't know anything about it. So

17 that's one of our goals.

18 : As I mentioned earlier, the

19 , geotextile will be placed over the soils

20 prior to the new 2 feet of clean soil. Our

21 five-year reviews, if we start getting data

22 , back at year two or year three that shows

23 ! that we have a problem, we don't have to

24 , wait until five years to do something about

T) fVVr A T 23° South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102

C O U R T R E P O R T I N G www.royalcourtreporting.comPhone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax: (glA),BWtfflffts

. 1 that; but typically we want to get a few

2 more years of data to really try to

3 understand is it, you know, a stable thingi

4 that we're seeing.

5 : With that, I'm going to turn back to

6 '. John.i

7 1 M R . MONSEES: O n e important point

8 ', that I neglected to mention before -- and

9 ! this segways into what Linda is talkingi

10 ' about -- is monitoring the site after we do

11 ' the remedy.

12 ; After the remedy work is done and we

13 ! start doing our monitoring and sampling to

14 : see exactly how effective is the remedy

15 ' working, is it doing what we want it to do,

16 ! has it cut down on the contamination going

17 ; into the river and going into the sediment.

18 ! If we find out that in fact the

19 ! remedy isn't working as well as we thought

20 ! it would and we have data indicating that

21 i there is still a contamination, under the

22 i proposed consent decrees, EPA still has the

23 ability to go back and ask for more work to

24 . be done at the site, and the utility will do

• M23° South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102

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I

. * that work, unless they go into the Court and

2 ! the Court suggests that that's not

3 appropriate or not necessary.

4 So the EPA still has the authority

5 , to get more work done at the site. So we'lli

6 be able to respond if in fact there is a

7 i future problem, and we'll be looking for it

8 to see where do we go from here.

9 , We have these proposed consent

10 . decrees. We have what the EPA believes is a

11 very good settlement of this case. If we

12 i had not reached a settlement, we would have

13 proceeded to trial before the District

14 Court. EPA is of the opinion that there is

15 , no guarantee that, after a trial, we would

16 have obtained from the Court a remedy with

17 , this kind of scope and all the work that

18 we're getting. So we're very satisfied that

19 this is going to be a very protective

20 ; remedy.

21 Once we evaluate all the comments --

22 and we've received several comments already

23 in writing, and we hope to elicit more

24 ' comments from the audience tonight -- EPA

23° South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax: (215L732-7655


1 will discuss internally those comments and

2 : consider them. If EPA determines, after

3 , considering all the comments received, thati

4 '. the remedy is still an appropriate and

5 ' protected remedy, then EPA will ask the

6 ; Department of Justice to file a motion withi

7 , the Court asking the Judge to approve the!

8 : consent decrees and approve the settlement.

9 , At that point, it will be up to thei

10 Judge looking at the papers to decide what

11 to do and that's where we'll wind up. Ifi12 . the Judge approves the remedy, approves the

!

13 settlement, then we hope to havei

14 , construction start at. the site in the Falli

15 , of 2006. As Linda mentioned earlier, we

16 estimate that construction, from start to

17 finish, will run approximately two years.

18 , At that point, that will cap off a

19 , more than 25-year effort to address thisI

20 , site which the Judge has found presents an

21 imminent and substantial endangerment.

22 So, at this point, we would like to

23 invite questions about the nature and scope

24 , of the remedy, things that you've heard

lit



i

. 1 • during the presentation. Then, afterwards,

2 if you don't have questions but would like

3 : to make a comment for our consideration for

4 the record, we would invite you to do so.i

5 : Are there any questions?

6 I MS. JASTREMSKI: Please state your

7 name and spell your last name. Thank you.

8 MR. McGEEHAN: My first name is

9 ; Michael. Last name is McGeehan,

10 M-C-G-E-E-H-A-N. I am the state rep in this

11 : district and represent the state level for

12 , this particular site.

13 What is the acreage of the site?

14 i MS. DIETZ: The southern area is

15 approximately -- the whole site is 10 acres,

16 and I think the southern area is

17 ! approximately 8.

18 MR. McGEEHAN: I'm a little confusedi

19 ' on the settlement and where the money is

20 ; being apportioned to the utilities. My

21 understanding was that they were accepting

22 ] these transformers from Philadelphia

23 Electric and the like, and I'm not sure why

24 they're getting the money.

• •a23° South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102

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1 Is that back to the utility to hire

2 : a remediation firm?

3 ' MR. MONSEES: It's to pay for the

4 cleanup, sir. The money that the utilities

5 are obtaining and from the Schorsch

6 Brothers, that is going to the utility group

7 and will be dedicated solely for the cleanup

8 ; of the site.

9 : MR. McGEEHAN: What's the entire

10 dollar amount of the cleanup?

11 MR. MONSEES: The cleanup has been

12 estimated somewhere between $13 million and

13 , $17 million. The consent decrees with thei

14 utilities, if there are costs that overrun

15 ; and this remedy ends up costing more than

16 ' the $17 million, the utilities are

17 responsible for that.

18 MR. McGEEHAN: Who owns the land

19 now? Where does the ownership lie?

20 MR. MONSEES: I believe the

21 , ownership lies with a trust that was set up

22 [ after the bankruptcy reorganization. They

23 ' were a broad part of the bankruptcy

24 proceedings at the same time. They were

ait



. 1 ' reorganized and apparently the ownership of

2 the site was spun off to a trust that was

3 ' set up to hold the title of the site.

4 1 M R . McGEEHAN: Once it's remediated,

5 i where does the ownership then revert to? Is

6 ; that the federal government, or what entity

7 ; is it?

8 • MR. MONSEES: No, sir. The federal

9 , government has no ownership interest in this

10 property, and I think we're forbidden to

11 take any. That is going to remain with the

12 trust.

13 MR. McGEEHAN: Is it marketable

14 depending on the usages? I want to get to

15 that question too. Is the title marketable

16 ! after it's remediated?

17 MR. MONSEES: Well, I think the

18 ' title would be marketable, but it would have

19 i restrictions on it.

20 '• MR. McGEEHAN: Under similar cleanup

21 \ scenarios, what other uses have been used in

22 , the past for other sites?

23 MS. DIETZ: Well, there are a couple

24 issues at this site. That southern area

23° South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax: (2


; 1 - ' that we talked about is this land. The

2 , original shoreline of the Delaware is back

3 ' here where St. Vincent's is. This is also a

4 ' fill area. You know, the River was filled

5 ' over years and years. So this is not an

6 area that, you know, was built to support

7 ' buildings and so forth. There would have to

8 be a lot of engineering that would have to

9 , be done here.I

10 This is also in the contaminated

11 area. So any use of this property would

12 likely be an above ground use, but we're not

13 • anticipating any type of residential use.

14 ; The city has long-range plans to have open

15 i space in this location.

16 ; You know, we're talking master plans

17 for years out where there would be a bicycle

18 or walking trail along the Northern

19 Delaware, and those long-range plans include

20 this property to have a trail going through

21 the property and, you know, like park

22 benches and things like that, an open space

23 : used for recreational use of some sort.

24 The area towards the street could be

aai23° South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102

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. 1 • used for commercial use, that type of thing.

2 . Basically, you know, we try to clean up to

3 be protective of the surrounding land use

4 ; today.

!

5 , Also, if somebody were coming in to

6 redevelop a property, they would have to

7 , consult with EPA on what type of developmenti

8 I that would be so that we could make surei

9 that it wouldn't ruin our cleanup.

10 [ MR. McGEEHAN: Just one last comment

11 , if I may instead of a question. I know that

12 our state Department of Environmental

13 • Protection has raised some concerns abouti14 ; this settlement, and I certainly want to

I

15 , work with Congresswoman Swartz's office to

16 | try to come to an understanding between the

17 • DEP and the EPA.

18 , My understanding is that they are,

19 , at least at this point, in opposition to thei

20 : settlement and plan going forward. I'm not

21 , exactly sure what the problem is, and I

22 ; apologize for coming in tonight without

23 knowing the specifics of that situation.i

24

TQ (^\\/r A T 23° South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102IVVJ 1 Al-y Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax: (2/1


. l ' I just want to put on the record

2 ' that I want to work with Congresswoman

3 : Swartz, and of course Councilwoman Krajewski

4 is represented as well. I just hope that we

5 ! can all work together and obviously stay

6 • informed about the progress.

7 i Thank you for the presentation.

8 ; Thank you.

9 , MR. MONSEES: Just so you know, sir,i

10 • we have been working with the Pennsylvaniai

11 Department of Environmental Protection.

12 During the course of this litigation, during

13 the course of this planning, Linda Dietz has

14 been working with her counterpart at the

15 local southeast office of Pennsylvania DEP,

16 ' and we've tried to keep those folks

17 informed.

18 : I do understand there are some

19 ; concerns coming from other offices in PADEP,

20 and we will work to address those problems.

21 ; Thank you.

22 ', MS. MYERS: This seems like a good

23 cue for me. I'm Kathy Curran Myers. I'm

24 the deputy secretary for Water Management of

23° South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277


1 i • Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, Department of

2 i Environmental Protection. So I've got a

3 good segway.:

4 I'll clarify what some of our

5 i concerns are. We did through DRBC provide

6 | some written comments, but we did want to

7 come tonight just to clarify what ouri

8 . principal concerns are for the community andi9 ; for everybody's edification and discourse.

10 i We do not want to stand in the way

11 j of getting bulldozers on this site to remove

12 , the contamination, the contaminated soil asii

13 quickly as possible. We do agree that it's

14 ; important and a good first step. However,

15 i the riverbed contains contamination too,

16 and, as noted this evening, the cap has not

17 yet been fully designed or demonstrated toi

18 '. be effective in reducing PCBs in thei19 ! estuary. Those details when developed

20 ! should address our water quality concerns,

21 and we really think they need to do so.I

22 Pennsylvania has been workingi23 cooperatively with the other states, with

24 ; EPA and DRBC, the Delaware River Basin

• IB

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Commission, to develop and implement EPAs

TMDL for the PCS cleanup in the Delaware

Estuary.

Now, with TMDL, timing is

unfortunate because it is the mandated Clean

Water Act water restoration plan for the

whole estuary, and it's just beginning to be

underway as you are now trying to finish up

the RCRA cleanup of this site. So it's an

unfortunate mismatch of timing, so it will

just take some extra effort for all of us to

make sure that all of our obligations are

accomplished through these two efforts.

Pennsylvania has a statutory

obligation, under both the federal Clean

Water Act and the Pennsylvania Clean Streams

Law, to protect public health by assuring

that the fish can be consumed safely and

that the PCBs in the river coming from this

site are not passed on through the food

chain in the environment.

Therefore, through the DRBC,

Pennsylvania provides comments on the

cleanup proposal, asking EPA to require the


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cleanup to meet water quality standards,

including that PCN TMDL currently underway.

While Pennsylvania strongly supports

moving forward with the proposed cleanup of

this site, we have requested and continue to

request that EPA provide us assurance that

the remedy will meet water quality standards

and the TMDL requirements at the end of the

day.

At the very least, this settlement

cannot impede the ET or the DRBC from

fulfilling our individual and mutual

obligations to implement TMDL in this whole

part of the estuary in which the Metal Bank

is a big piece.

It may be, however, that we can

defer the question as to whether this remedy

in this current form fully assures

protection of public health in achieving

water quality standards. With that adequate

monitoring, including the ground water at

the site and the sediments in the adjacent

mudflat, as well as in the river, the remedy

proposed may yet be demonstrated to satisfy


230 South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax: (215) 732


1 ' • protection of public health and the

2 environment.

3 ! The consent decree should,

4 therefore, require a monitoring program to

5 , determine the remedy's effectiveness. Mr.

6 Monsees has stated that it is EPA's

7 ; intention to do so. We would hope to be

8 : able to have an opportunity to be involved

9 , in the development of those monitoring plansi

10 ' as they go along and move forward.

11 We expect EPA will use such

12 ! monitoring data to fulfill its statutory

13 obligation to perform a five-year review of

14 | the remedial action to evaluate the plan's

15 ; protectiveness on human health and

16 ; environment, and I believe we heard tonight

17 that there would be a series of those

18 five-year reviews, in which this monitoringi

19 ; would be critical so that we have the

20 underlying knowledge to know whether it is

21 ' working or is not.

22 In addition, an evaluation will be

23 | insufficient if it is not followed up by

24 action such as that which might be required

ana

230 South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax: (215) 732^7^5§ Q 0 0 8 8


ORIGIN*

1 ; • if the monitoring data proves that the

2 , remedy is unfortunately not adequate.i

3 Therefore, the consent decree should require

4 | both adequate monitoring and an obligationi

5 ! to require remedial measures should the

6 , remedy be found to be inadequate.i

7 '. We feel that additional remedial

8 ; measures may be necessary for this site toI

9 : comply with water quality standards and the

10 j TMDL. The consent decrees should consideri

11 ! an obligation to comply with those standards

12 | if the remedy is ineffective in protectingii

13 human health and the environment.

14 i The sediment in the northern area,

15 '. as mentioned in the overview, was proposed

16 I removal under the original record ofi

17 : decision. The current proposal under the

18 i consent decree is now sediment merely be

19 ' capped. Given this extreme change in the

20 | remediation, we think the current proposali

21 ' needs both an adequate monitoring program

22 , and a plan for remedial measures, should the

23 monitoring show that this planned cap is

24 , inadequate.

23° South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax: (215) 732-7655

C O U R T R E P O R T I N G www.royalcourtreporting.com A R 5 0 0 0 8 9

; 1 , • The riverbed here is tidally

2 , influenced, so the water washes back andi3 : forth. There has been no information

i

4 | provided as to how this capping method could

5 , accommodate that tidal motion of the waters

6 ; in this area. So we're emphasizing that we

7 , need adequate support in the consent decree!

8 i for appropriate monitoring and remedial

9 ; measures.

10 ! We are committed of course as the

11 I Commonwealth of Pennsylvania to restoring

12 ; the quality of .the Delaware River, and we

13 ! plan to work with EPA and DRBC to see that

14 ! it happens.

15 i The Court needs to recognize the

16 ' role of the state and interstate agencies to

17 : insuring that the river is adequately

18 ' cleaned up. So we are requesting that EPAI

19 ' and the Court clarify that, if the Court

20 approves these consent decrees in their

21 ' current form, that action does not precludei

22 or interfere with the regulatory agency's

23 statutory duties to require further actions

24 if they are necessary to meet water quality

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standards and the TMDL to a remedy that is

true and protective of human health and the

community.

MS. COLLIER: Good evening. I'm

Carol Collier, C-0-L-L-I-E-R. I'm the deputy

director of the Delaware River Basin

Commission. Thank you for the opportunity

to speak.

The Delaware River Basin Commission

is an interstate federal compact commission.

It has five members, the governors of the

four basin states, Pennsylvania, New Jersey,

New York and Delaware. Kathy Myers who just

spoke is Governor Rendel's representative on

the commission, and our New Jersey member

wants me to offer his apologies because he

was called away at the last minute.

Otherwise, he would have been here.

DRBC has been involved with EPA and

the estuary states in developing the TMDL,

the actual science required to establish

what levels of PCBs could be in the river

and still have no fish consumption

advisories, because it is a human health

• SI


230 South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax: (215) 732-76S& R 5 0 0 0 9 I


;

. 1 j • issue that we are concerned about.I

2 : We have been looking at that, and

3 : one of the problems is that the levels of

4 PCBs in the river right now are 500-to-1000

5 ' times higher than what they need to be to

6 ' meet water quality standards and to

7 , eliminate fish consumption advisories andIi

8 ; human health concerns.

9 ; As we look at the river, not only

10 , are we involved in the science, but we have

11 an implementation advisory committee,

12 because we really want to be involved with

13 ; cleaning up the river. This advisory

14 i committee has members of the state agencies,

15 EPA, industrial municipal discharges andi

16 environmental organizations.i

17 . The whole purpose is to find ways to

18 i clean up PCBs as soon as possible. One of

19 ' these issues is looking at contaminatedi

20 [ sites, as well as discharge air deposition.

21 , There are many, many sources that are

22 ! affecting the PCB loads in the estuary. One

23 > of the things we found is that it's not just

24 one site. It's not similar to what the

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situation is up on the Hudson. We're going

to need to have reductions on all sites in

order to meet the goal of meeting the human

health standards and the fish consumption

advisories.

So the problem is that DRBC is very

supportive of the action proposed at the

settlement, and we would like to see it go

forward, but, as Kathy Myers mentioned, we

would also like to see monitoring and be

involved with the development of that

monitoring program. There are different

methods involved, and we have been working

with public and private entities for

developing the best monitoring to the

estuary.

In fact, I would say over $5 million

has been spent in public funds already to

develop the monitoring and modeling

necessary for the work. We're asking that

you look at monitoring to see if it does

work. If not, there is some recourse and

some action. We will need to have this site

cleaned up to the same levels as the other

• •a


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www.royalcourtreporting.com S R 5 0 0 0 9 3

i 1 : contaminated sites in order to meet the

i

2 : levels necessary to eliminate fish

3 , consumption advisories.i

4 There's also an issue of equity. We

5 : have all these other interested parties outi

6 ; there that are developing pollutant

7 , minimization plans, coming up with ways to

8 I clean up this site. Then, if this site is

9 i cleaned up to levels of parts per million

10 : and water quality standard is parts per

11 i quadrillion, there's a long way in between.

12 i Those are my general comments. I

13 ' would like to ask my general counsel, Ken

14 | Warren, who developed some details, to just

15 | give a short summary on some of the legal

16 ' aspects. He can do a lot better than I can.

17 ' MR. WARREN: Thank you. I am Ken

18 ; Warren, W-A-R-R-E-N. I'm the general counsel

19 ' for the DRBC.i

20 ' If you would just indulge me some

21 questions to start with, I'm a little bit

22 : interested in putting some meat on the bones!

23 of what especially, John, you said, because

24 it's very encouraging quite frankly to hear



!

. 1 ; - that EPA is committed to a comprehensive

2 monitoring program that would determine theI

3 impact of PCBs from the site after the

4 ; remedy has been constructed.

5 ; One of the issues I guess is whether

6 ; or not EPA is satisfied to have a cleanup to

7 ! a standard of 1 part per million in thei8 ! sediment. If monitoring shows that 1 part

9 ; ' per million in the sediment is causing thei

10 ' violation of water quality standards, is

11 i there a connection that EPA will attempt to

12 . draw between the 1 part per million standardI

13 , and the water quality standards to make, surei

14 ' that the river in fact meets the Clean Water

15 i Act obligations as well as the RCRA and

16 i CERCLA obligations?i

17 MR. MONSEES: I'm going to deferI

18 ' that to my technical person at the site,

19 ; but, just to take a step back, the authority

20 that the Court will be ordering this cleanupi

21 under comes under RCRA. So that's where

22 i we're proceeding, from that basis, 7003 of

23 the RCRA statute. So that's been our

24 , primary focus throughout this litigation.

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; i

1 Because we were in litigation andi

2 ' because we were in mediation, we had ani

3 ', obligation to work with the utilities to tryi!

4 to see if a compromise was possible with the

5 , ultimate goal that is driven by RCRA ofi

6 addressing the imminent and substantiali

7 ! endangerment to public health and the

8 environment.

9 : We consulted with an expert during

10 our negotiations, and also we developed this

11 remedy plan that the utilities eventuallyi

12 ' agreed to our experts and assured us that

13 ; that would meet our goals for the purposes

14 ' of that litigation, which was to protect

15 ' human health and the environment, address

16 ! the imminent and substantial endangerment.

17 : Without getting into too much

18 : detail, Ken, I can tell you that my

19 ' recollection is that the 2003 DML report

20 ' identified two primary sources of

21 ' contamination, PCB contamination to the

22 i Delaware River from this particular site.

23 : 99 percent of it was allegedly coming from

24 ; surface runoff from the site, and that would

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1 'be primarily from the courtyard area if I

2 ' understand the data.

3 We're planning to remove essentially

4 ' the entire courtyard area sources of

5 , contamination and then cap it under 2 feet.

6 i So we think we're eliminating 99 percent of

7 the contamination previously identified as

8 , affecting the TMDL right now, and that's in

9 the southern area to address ground water

10 : contamination.

11 ! So I think, you know, it's difficult

12 ' to discuss this before we have the data

13 ; after we have the remedy, because we don't

14 j know how effective this remedy is going to

15 I be. We think it's going to be very

16 ; effective.

17 We understand the DRBC's concerns

18 . and the concerns of Pennsylvania and New

19 Jersey, and we intend to continue to work

20 with the states and the DRBC and to discuss

21 these issues and get your valid input to the

22 : process, to continue monitoring the site and

23 : to determine if the remedy is effective.

24 ; We all share the same goal. We all

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want to reduce PCS loading to the river, and

we particularly want to get this site

cleaned up. I think there's no one in this

room that would disagree that what we're

trying to do is source removal and that's

where we're coming from.

MS. DIETZ: As far as the cleanup

level for sediment, the cleanup level for

sediment collected by EPA was back in 1997.

When we selected the remedy for our

administrative process and we evaluated that

that cleanup number was part of an

administrative EPA process, that went

through the nine criteria that looked at

protectiveness.

Technical feasibility is a big

issue, and, at that point in time, that

cleanup number was a big issue, and this has

been demonstrated as another big sediment

site where there is the ability to

physically remove sediment. To have a

cleanup less than that is very difficult.

So that hasn't changed. The

technology for removing sediment since 1997

ail


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has not really changed to this date, so we

did not tinker with any cleanup numbers that

were in our original administrative process.

How that's going to impact future, you know,

values that are out there or may be out

there, I really don't know. I can't give

you a specific answer at this point in time.

MR. WARREN: There have been changes

that are being proposed in the consent

decrees to the ROD. For example, in the

northern area, I think Ms. Myers mentioned

that, although EPA requires excavation of

the soil, you're now asking the Judge to

approve a remedy that's different from that.

So you don't feel yourself to be

bound by the ROD in any way, do you.

MR. MONSEES: At this point, Ken, if

I may interject, I don't think Judge Giles

feels that he's restrained by the ROD. The

record of decision, or ROD for the folks in

the audience, was a decision that the EPA

made under its administrative authority when

we were proceeding essentially on two

different tracks.


230 South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax: (215) 732g7j^5E 0 0 0 9 9


. ! : We had this lawsuit going on in

2 : federal court under RCRA, and we were also

3 proceeding administratively under thei

4 Superfund Law, and we got to a point where

5 ' the tracks conjoined, and we were ready to

6 j tell the utility groups and the Defendants

7 ; to go do the remedy EPA picked.ii

8 The Judge said "Wait a minute. II

9 : have jurisdiction over the matter. I will

10 ! be deciding the remedy."

11 I At that point, EPA backed off and

12 said "Well, he's got a point. We did bringi

13 : this lawsuit. We have asked him to order ai

14 ! cleanup under RCRA."

15 | So, at that point, our

16 • administrative process essentially ceased,i

17 , and we were before Judge Giles to have himI

18 give appropriate remedy for the site. It

19 i was the Judge who invited us to go to

20 '• mediation, and it was through that mediationi

21 process as part of that that we came up withi

22 this remedy.i23 ' We started in the mediation

24 ' process -- EPA started with the premise that

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; 1 we like our ROD remedy. We think it is

2 ; protective. That's where we started from ini

3 ' our negotiations. In fact, in several

4 i respects, we wound up with a remedy with

5 ' even greater scope than the original ROD

6 i remedy.I

7 ! Although it is difficult to assess

8 ' with respect to the north area and theI

9 sediment cap, we feel confident that will do

10 : the job. We will do monitoring. If itI

11 ' doesn't do the job, then we'll have to ;go

12 : back to the drawing board, but we're not

13 ! just going to simply walk away from the site

14 , once this work is done. We will be doingi

15 monitoring, looking at the effectiveness of

16 ; the remedy. If it turns out that it's notI

17 protective, then we will go back to the

18 | drawing board.i

19 We have a duty to the members of the

20 ! community, we have a duty to the people who

21 use the river and the citizens of

22 , Philadelphia to go back, look at the problem

23 and try to figure out an appropriate remedy

24 I to address it, but we think we need to get

T\ S~\\7r A T 230 South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102JVW I;/\J-y Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax:


. 1 ' moving now and we think what we have

2 \ proposed is a very good way to get this

3 ; thing started. If we can remove what we

4 ' think are the primary source areas of

5 ' contamination at this site, we think we're

6 ' going to go a heck of a long way to

7 ' eliminating this problem.

8 ! MR. WARREN: From the DRBC's

9 ; perspective, I can say that we share your

10 i goals. We agree with you that starting work

11 : now and removing contaminated soils is a

12 j good idea. We share your view that, if the

13 : remedy constructed turns out not to be

14 : protective -- as a result of monitoring it's

15 , shown not to be protective, then furtheri

16 : actions should be ordered.i

17 Let me try to state concisely what Ii

18 think the problem is and then try to be

19 , constructive by offering at least our view

20 as a possible solution to the problem. If

21 you're able to react to that today, thatij

22 would be great, but, if that's something you

23 all need to consider, then I would

24 understand that as well.

IBg

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. 1 ' ' The problem that we see is that weI

2 • have fish advisories that are present in the

3 ; river because the river does not meet water

4 , quality standards. The Court has already

5 , found that PCB discharges from the site arei

6 ! a major contributor to the PCBs in the

7 river.

8 , Indeed, as the DRBC determined in

9 : the context of the TMDL, discharges from

10 ' this site are alone sufficient to cause

11 water quality standards to be violated, eveni

12 : if there were no other discharges of PCBs ini

13 ' this water quality zone of the estuary.

14 ' After construction of the remedy, it

15 ; is still quite possible that this site will

16 ' cause water quality standards to be

17 ! violated. It may be because the removal and

18 ; capping of the soils at the site

19 ' insufficiently reduce the discharges, but it

20 ! also may be because the sediments at the

21 • site, which are highly contaminated,

22 ' continue to be a source of PCBs to the river

23 i after capping and that the tidal flows will

24 : erode the cap and, therefore, allow

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sediments to remain in contact with the

water.

Although you are correct that the

TMDL found that, between soil runoff and

ground water, the runoff is 99 percent of

the contribution to the river. The TMDL did

not purport to quantify the impact to the

river from the sediments at the site. It's

the sediments, more so than the soil, that I

think the DRBC has the concern about;

although, it's the total of the impact that

we are concerned about.

So, first of all, we agree that

there has to be monitoring. In our review

of the consent decree and the remedy, we do

not see a comprehensive monitoring program

ordered. We are, therefore, grateful to

hear you say that it is EPA's intent to

require one, but I am somewhat concerned

when I hear about the standard of 1 part per

million in sediments, that the monitoring

may only consist of testing the sediments to

see if they have 1 part per million or less

or more PCBs.


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1 : What the DRBC thinks should be done

2 in the context of the monitoring program, isii

3 not only testing of the sediments but

4 i testing of the water itself to determine the

5 : impact from the sediments to the water; the

6 testing of fish to determine whether the

7 ' site is still causing fish to be physically

8 | contaminated so that fish advisories need to

9 remain in effect, and of course the normal

10 , testing of bugs and critters that occur when

11 ' water quality tests are being done.

12 I Ultimately, the health issue here isi

13 whether or not humans who are consuming fish

14 : in the area might be adversely affected as a

15 i result of the PCB contamination. That's a

16. ; strong health issue which is not a

17 performance standard currently in thei

18 ' consent decree.

19 i So, that being the problem, what is

20 , the solution? The solution as we see it is

21 first of all for the work to go forward but

22 ! for EPA to commit to a comprehensive

23 ; monitoring program in the fashion that I've

24 just described. Of course it can best be

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. 1 • done in consultation with a technical staff

2 • at the Commission at PADEP and at the New

3 | Jersey DEP.

4 i Then we need a commitment from EPA

5 that, under the consent decree, if it turns

6 out that, as a result of substantial

7 contributions from the site after

8 , construction of the remedy, fish advisoriesI

9 I still need to remain in effect -- another

10 way to put that is water quality standards

11 continue to be violated -- that EPA will

12 : regard that under the consent decree as

13 ; grounds for requiring further remediation at

14 ! the site to eliminate that impact.

15 ; So we think that's the best of both

16 . , worlds. The consent decree goes forward,

17 ' the work goes forward, monitoring occurs.

18 If we're all fortunate, the construction of

19 ; the consent decree -- the construction ofI

20 ' the remedy hopefully will solve the problem,

21 but, if, as we fear, the work specified is

22 not enough, then we can revisit it at that

23 ' time.

24 ; The regulatory agencies other than

23° South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax: (2^^Q^5p Q C


1 [ ' EPA, but in addition to EPA, will not be

2 ' precluded from exercising their regulatory

3 : authority at that point. Under whatever

4 ' guidance or supervision or approval the

5 ' Court thinks is appropriate, we can jointly

6 ; design a remedy that will solve water

7 ; quality impacts.i

8 So I think that's the concern.

9 : That's our hope as to how we can all move

10 forward in a cooperative fashion, and I;

11 ' would just end by complimenting EPA and the

12 Department of Justice for staying with thisi

13 in a long fight with the PRPs who have been- i

14 very resistant in doing the work. You have

15 ' a consent decree that makes a good first

16 • step forward, but let's not lose sight of

17 the ultimate objective, which is to have a

18 i safe river that can be used by the

19 j community.

20 : Thank you.

21 MS. KELLY: Hi. I'm Loretta Kelly,

22 K-E-L-L-Y. I just have some clarifying

23 technical questions.

24 During the monitoring period, that

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. 1 - last five years, is it possible or

2 i permissible that the trust company sell the

3 . deed if you will or if other uses could

4 , begin before the remedy is achieved? Like

5 could something be started before you really

6 , know if it should?

7 ' MS. DIETZ: Well, yes. The

8 ; monitoring that will be conducted will be

9 , ground water monitoring and river monitoring

10 in some fashion. So the surface of the sitej

11 will have a cap on it, and, if people say it

12 was a recreational use, it will have some

13 : type of cap. So there would be no direct

14 ' exposure to any of the contamination if

15 , there was a walking trail say. It could be

16 used.

17 , Those are the things that wei

18 envision may happen at this site, maybe not.i19 • You know, we don't know, but the land

20 ; surface could be used once the construction

21 ; is completed and the long-term monitoring --

22 if there was an additional remedial action

23 in the future, then the site would, youI

24 know, possibly have to be reconstructed

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S 1 ' again if that were to ever happen, but those

2 : are the kinds of things that any person ori

3 ' development, you know, would have to come to

4 us and explain how they want to use thei

5 ! site. You know, we would have to look at

6 their plans and see how that fits in with

7 | what we have going on to make sure that

8 there would not be exposure and also to make

9 | sure that the remedy that's in place is

10 protected and not damaged by that use.

11 i MS. KELLY: Right. So the wall that

12 you would drive down into the ground, that's

13 ; around the southern area?

14 MS. DIETZ: It would just be on this

15 ! corner of the property.

16 MS. KELLY: And how far does that go

17 ; down?i

18 : MS. DIETZ: Roughly 20-to-30 feet

19 ' into the subsurface.

20 \ MS. KELLY: And I don't know how the

21 , soil chemistry works over time, but is it

22 ! possible that another hot spot could be

23 : generated by the wall containing all the!i

24 ' contaminants?

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. * ; • MS. DIETZ: Well, the hot spots I'mi

2 talking about are areas of soil that are

3 ' contaminated, and the oil is still in there.

4 ; So what we plan to do is excavate those

5 , areas around it, put in clean material. So

6 the possibility that a hot spot could be

7 ! generated -- do you mean like if you drive

8 , the wall in and if you have ground water

9 ' that --

10 i MS. KELLY: Could things

11 : reaccumulate?

12 MS. DIETZ: I guess there's always a

13 ! possibility, but I don't think that that's a

14 i probability because we would be removing a

15 big source.i

16 Just to clarify, in this area, we do

17 i not see any oil in those two areas. It's

18 just in this corner, and the majority of

19 that corner is going to be removed, and that

20 ; oil is located in that soil area. So, once

21 we get that soil out, we'll be getting that

22 oil out as well.

23 i MR. MONSEES: The oil tends to carry

24 | PCBs. So, if we can get the oily stuff,

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. ! • we're going to get a lot of the PCBs.

2 ' MS. KELLY: And what was the use

3 prior to 1968?

4 1 M R . MONSEES: I t w a s a scrapyard,

5 and the scrapyard started taking apart usedi

6 electrical transformers. A lot of

7 : electrical transformers at the time

8 contained PCB oil. There were also

9 ' transformers that contained simple mineral

10 oil, but most of it was PCB oil. That's how

11 ' we believe the PCBs came onto the site, from

12 i the breaking apart of transformers.

13 What the business was trying to doi

14 was recover the metal transformers and the

15 . copper bindings. Of course they would

16 recover the metal and then send it to

17 i smelters. You know, that's how they made

18 money, but the oil had no value. It just

19 ' got put in the tank. Eventually, when the

20 tank started to leak, we had contamination.

21 ! MS. KELLY: And I don't know if it's

22 possible, but, in your professional opinion,

23 I was just wondering how bad this type of

24 : site is compared to maybe other eastern

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1 , ' riverfront industrial cities?

2 . MR. MONSEES: Well, we can tell youi3 that the Judge at the trial issued an

4 opinion and found that the site presented an

5 •• imminent and substantial endangerment, that

6 | .it represented a public health threat for

7 people being exposed to the actualii

8 contamination on the site through people

9 eating the fish that were caught right off

10 ; the site, and that it represented a danger

11 ; to the environment as far as it was having

12 an ecological impact on the critters and thei

13 : plants that existed in the mudflat.

14 : The Court found that, under the law,

15 I that was enough to require a cleanup, and

16 , that the Judge was going to decide the

17 cleanup.I

18 : MS. KELLY: Thank you.

19 | MR. GOLENE: My name is Stewart

20 ; Golene, G-0-L-E-N-E. I have a Milnor Street

21 property partnership, which is located

22 directly next door to this. It's actually

23 ' on two sides, south and east of the Metal

24 ; Bank site.

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When you say that people are going

to come to you before they use this, it's my

understanding, in the very beginning, the

consent decree was signed with the suits and

the City of Philadelphia. Are they part of

this consent decree settlement as well?

MR. MONSEES: They are part of it to

the extent that there's an agreement with

the City of Philadelphia. They were brought

in as a Defendant third-party by the

Defendants at some point during the

litigation.

To resolve those claims, the City

agreed, as part of this global settlement,

to allow the utilities to deposit treated

waste water into the city sewer system. As

they treat the sediment, they are going to

generate waste water. They are going to

treat it or clean it on site and then dump

the water into the city sewer as part of the

remedial process.

To get the City's okay on that part

of the quid pro quo if you will, they were

released from the claims in the lawsuit.


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www.royalcourtreporting.comI 3

. l • That way the City agreed to take the water.

2 ; That was their contribution to this global

3 deal.

4 ' MR. GOLENE: Another issue here up

5 front I guess is called the courtyard?

6 MS. DIETZ: Yes.

7 1 M R . GOLENE: And, i n communicating,i

8 I find it fascinating that the City recently

9 ; changed the zoning for the courtyard area to

10 residential. Are you aware of that?

11 ; MS. DIETZ: I am aware of that, yes.

12 MR. GOLENE: How did that happen?

13 | MS. DIETZ: I really can't speak for

14 ; the city.

15 : MR. GOLENE: That's unbelievable

16 , communication to me. Yet, you say you're

17 not going to let residential go in this

18 , area, or are you going to let it?

19 MS. DIETZ: What I'm saying is that

20 ! the remedy that is directed as the cleanup

21 is not protective for residential use. So

22 ' we are cleaning up this site for certain

23 uses. If there was a developer that wanted

24 to use that site for residential, they would

TT) f\\7' A T 23° South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102r\A_/ I I\Lj Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax: (215fl^§7^§ | j


. l • have to do a further cleanup. It would be

2 ' on the developer to do that.

3 , MR. GOLENE: So it could be a

4 Brownfields kind of situation?

5 MS. DIETZ: They could take that

6 property and do further cleanup to it, but

7 ' they would have to coordinate with us to do

8 : that.

9 MR. GOLENE: Thank you.

10 : MS. DIETZ: You're welcome.

11 MR. McGEEHAN: I have a follow-up

12 : but no more initial questions. The name is

13 ; McGeehan.

14 I had a question about this -- Ii

15 wasn't clear on this consortium that's

16 ; controlling the site. Could you give me

17 more insight about the parties involved?

18 i MS. DIETZ: Let me try to address

19 that. You mean all the different groups of

20 : people?

21 ( MR. McGEEHAN: Yes.

22 MS. DIETZ: I'm going to do it in

23 terms of owner/operator and generators and

24 , see if that helps because it is confusing.

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. 1 • Basically, in Superfund, we have

2 ' owners and operators that can be liable, we

3 have transporters that can be liable and wei

4 have generators that can be liable and

5 , brokers. At this site, we have an

6 owner/operator that owned and operated thei

7 site, which caused some contamination. We

8 , have generators, which is a group of

9 utilities such as PECO, Baltimore Gas and

10 i Electric, a group of utility companies that

11 ' sent their transformers to the site fori

12 processing.

13 '. So those companies are liable as

14 generators. The owner/operators are liable,

15 and in the owner/operator box are a

16 , corporation, which was a union corporation,I

17 Metal Bank, and two individuals which were

18 : Irvin and John Schorsch. So all those

19 parties are liable under CERCLA to clean up

20 ' this site.

21 ' So, throughout the years, we have

22 done enforcement with those parties to get.

23 ' the site cleaned up. So the owner/operator,

24 after going through a bankruptcy settlement,

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1 | • set aside money to go towards this cleanup.

2 ; Irvin and John Schorsch set aside money to

3 go towards the cleanup. The utility

4 ; companies have taken on the risk of doing

5 the cleanup and will use that money that

6 ; those other parties set aside towards the

7 ! remedy cleanup.

8 So all of the cleanup is covered.

9 ; All of the money for the cleanup is funded,i

10 ' and the utility companies will higher

11 contractors, remediation contractors, to

12 physically do the work.

13 , MR. McGEEHAN: Thank you for

14 explaining it, but I did understand that

15 ! part. My question is who owns the lands?

16 MS. DIETZ: A trust.

17 . MR. McGEEHAN: Who is the trust?

18 ; Tell me who that is.

19 MR. MONSEES: I think it's called

20 ' Union Trust, but that's about as current

21 information as I have.

22 MR. McGEEHAN: Who is Union Trust?

23 ! MR. MONSEES: It was a trust thati24 was set up during the bankruptcy I believe

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. 1 ' by the bankrupt companies and the parent

2 entity and possibly the reorganized company.

3 I'm not sure of the details, sir.

4 MR. McGEEHAN: Is that a consequence

5 of the bankruptcy?

6 ; MR. MONSEES: Yes, sir, absolutely.

7 MR. McGEEHAN: Can you get me that

8 : information, the Congresswoman and the

9 ' Councilwoman, so that we know what entity

10 we're dealing with with this property?

11 : MR. MONSEES: We can certainly run ai

12 title search and find out who currently

13 holds the title, but it's our understanding

14 ; that it's being held by a trust.

15 MR. McGEEHAN: And, if you could, in

16 ; layman's terms -- because I'm going to be

i

17 asked to explain it when I'm out in the

18 community. The remediation, explain to me

19 ; what that is please. You talk about

20 capping. I don't know what that means. I

21 understand there's a barrier layer.i

22 ' Is the contaminated material removed

23 , and then it's capped?

24 ; MS. DIETZ: Yes. In this situation,

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. 1 ' those three red areas are what we say are

2 ; hot spots. They are the highest levels of

3 I contamination with PCBs at that site. They

4 , are greater than 25. They will all be

5 excavated, clean fill brought in and then

6 ; the entire area will be covered again with ai

7 | liner and then another 2 feet•of clean soil.

8 i Then they'll seed and plant, do plantings,

9 you know, to blend in with the surrounding

10 area.

11 ; MR. McGEEHAN: The marsh area, is

12 I that going to be dredged?

13 , MS. DIETZ: This area here —

14 MR. McGEEHAN: And that's tidal. Is

15 ! it covered under high tide?

16 j MS. DIETZ: At high tide, it looksiI

17 [ like this. At low tide, the water is out

18 here. So you can actually walk in this

19 mudflat area.

20 : MR. McGEEHAN: How is thati

21 ' remediated?

22 ] MS. DIETZ: This area will be

23 excavated with an excavator like a backhoe

24 ' of some sort or some type of long reach

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excavator that will dig it out. That will

all be excavated and brought back on site

and dewatered.

The two areas that we talked about

that will have this cap that we've been

discussing are the tip of this area and this

northern area up here, which is in front of

this neighboring property.

MR. WARREN: A question in follow-up

from the Delaware River Basin Commission:

If you find in five years that the

remediation doesn't meet your standards or

whatever standards as determined in the

negotiations, is there money to do that

remediation? Are they going to have reserve

funds that go out five years; and, in the

event that it doesn't meet the standards,

that there is opportunity there for further

remediation.

MS. DIETZ: There is not a pot of

money sitting there specifically for

remediation. We have money that we

recovered as part of this big cleanup or

this big settlement. EPA has a pot of money

aai


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1 ; that we can use to oversee the work. We can

2 use it to do more monitoring above and

3 ' beyond what we've discussed tonight.

4 We have money for that, but, at a

5 | typical Superfund site, if there was more

6 work needed, we would have to either try to

7 | enforce against the responsible parties toii8 ; get that cleaned up, or we would have to use

9 , EPA federal dollars.

10 ' At this site, the way the

11 . settlements are worked out, if we have a

12 ' future cleanup that's necessary, we would

13 have to go, first of all, decide what that

14 | cleanup would be and go to the Court and geti

15 the Court's approval to do a further

16 cleanup. The parties responsible to do that

17 cleanup would be the utility companies

18 ; because they have agreed to do that if it's

19 ' ordered by the Court.

20 ; MS. BISHOP: My name is Pam Bishop.

21 I am assistant counsel with the Department

22 of Environmental Protection in Pennsylvania.

23 ; I have a follow-up question.

24 Will the Judge retain jurisdiction

•Q f\\7~ A T 23° South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102XVW I f\L~, Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax: (215) 732^7j^5§ Q 0 I 2 I


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over this matter through the five year and

then the five year and then the five-year

review that the gentleman described that EPA

must do?

MR. MONSEES: Yes. The Court will

retain jurisdiction over the site for the

purposes of the cleanup. Whether Chief

Judge Giles retains jurisdiction is another

thing. I understand he was a

newly-appointed judge when he first got this

case. Now he's Chief Judge. He may be

retired by then.

MS. BISHOP: It's a career for him.

MR. MONSEES: Yes, the District

Court will retain jurisdiction.

MS. BISHOP: And the consent decree

expressly gives that authority to the Judge

to modify the decree to address whether the

remedy is protective of human health and the

environment?

MR. MONSEES: That's the whole basis

for the Judge having the authority to order

a remedy under 7003.

MR. WILLIAMS: The Judge will retain


230 South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax: (215)

www.royalcourtreporting.com2 2

1 ; • jurisdiction under the consent decree over

2 enforcing the terms of the consent decree.

3 The consent decree provides that, if EPA

4 i determines that human health or the

5 environment are not adequately protected --

6 in other words, that the remedy isi

1 [ unfortunately found to be insufficiently

8 protective -- then EPA can determine what

9 ; additional work needs to be done and direct

10 ' the utilities to do it.

11 The utilities have agreed to do it

12 ; unless they dispute those determinations.i

13 They can then take that to the Judge who

14 will make a decision of whether, under

15 ! applicable principles of law, EPA was

16 correct and that work ought to be done.

17 In other words, the parties do noti

18 i go directly to the Court and ask the Court

19 to do it. The EPA, under the agreement,

20 makes the decision of what needs to be done

21 ' and says what should be done, and that is

22 the word on what should be done, unless the

23 '• Judge undoes it. There's a slight

24 difference.

23° South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax: (215) g3D-IR66Bfl I 9 Q

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MR. MONSEES: The Court also retains

jurisdiction for questions of interpreting

provisions of the CD. So it has the typical

retention of jurisdiction that you see in

most of our CERCLA matters, as well as what

Mr. Williams has described.

MS. BISHOP: If some entity or some

person or some agency wanted to dispute

EPA's judgment based on its evaluation of

whether the remedy was effective, how does

that occur in the future? Does one go

before the Judge, does one go to EPA?

MR. MONSEES: Well, I think the

first step is that EPA's door is always

open. So you can contact, you know, myself

or the remedial project manager for the

site. I think some of our public statements

have given contact information. So I would

encourage anybody with a concern about

what's going on at this site to contact EPA.

If, at that point, you're not

satisfied with what you're learning from EPA

and you want to take it to the next level, I

suppose you could always, you know, as a

a s a


230 South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvani^l^l§2Q Q I 0 ILPhone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax: (215) 732-7655


'. 1 • public citizen or a concerned citizen,

2 address your concerns to the Court.

3 ; MS. BISHOP: I think that's a

4 : critical question because of the

5 clarification that we just got as to what it

6 is that the Judge retains jurisdiction over.

7 • MR. MONSEES: I could actually read

8 the paragraph from the CD if that would help

9 ; make things more clear. We have a whole

10 '• paragraph dedicated in the CD to the

11 retention of jurisdiction or the appropriate

12 retention of jurisdiction.

13 ' Paragraph 106. "This Court retains

14 ! jurisdiction over both the subject matter of

15 this consent decree and the Plaintiff and

16 the second and third-party Defendants for

17 the duration of the terms and provisions of

18 this consent decree for the purpose of

19 i enabling any of the parties to apply to the

20 ; Court at any time for such further order,

21 direction and relief as may be necessary or

22 appropriate for (1) construction or

23 modification of the consent decree; (2)

24 ; effectuation or enforcement of the terms of

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the consent decree; (3) effectuation or

enforcement of Section 19, Dispute

Resolution; (4) EPA's determination that the

remedial actions are not protective of human

health and the environment; or (5) EPA's

selection of further response actions under

Paragraph 18, notwithstanding any other

provision of this consent decree, disputes

relating to EPA's determination that the

remedial action is not protective of human

health and the environment or EPA's

selection of further response reaction under

Paragraphs 18 and 20 of the consent decree

shall be resolved by the Court under

applicable principles of law and the dispute

resolutions of Section 19."

So the Court is retaining

jurisdiction on a lot of issues here.

MS. BISHOP: Thank you.

MS. SLAVET: Julie Slavet,

S-L-A-V-E-T. I work for Congresswoman

Allison Swartz. I just wanted to ask if we

can get a copy of the consent decree?

MR. MONSEES: Absolutely.


230 South 15th Street, 6th Floor, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102Phone: (215) 732-0655 Toll Free: (888) 595-7277 Fax: (21$ 3̂§-06|J5 | 2 6


1 • MS. SLAVET: I know these guys have

2 it right here. So is it on the website, on

3 the EPA website?

4 MR. MONSEES: It is on all three of

5 ' them. Also, if you're not on our mailing

6 list, this newsletter -- if you signed in,

7 , you'll be on the mailing list. It describes

8 ' how you can get it, and it's also available

9 ! at the Northeast Extension Regional Library.

10 : MS. JASTREMSKI: Any otheri

11 i questions?

12 ; (SILENCE).

13 Thank you very much for coming

14 tonight. We really appreciate it. Again,

15 please make sure you sign in if you want to

16 • be on the mailing list. I hope this meeting

17 has been helpful and informative. We thank

18 , you very much.

19 _ _ _

20 (Whereupon, the meeting concluded at

21 | 8:58 p.m. )[22 : _i

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2 C E R T I F I C A T I O NI

3 _ _ _

4 i

5 I hereby certify that the

6 proceedings and the evidence noted are

7 contained fully and accurately in the notes

8 taken by me in the above matter, and that

9 ; this is a correct transcript of the same.i

10

11

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13 | Michelle T. CascioII

14 ! Court Reporter

15 New Jersey Notary Public

16 Pennsylvania Commissioner of Deeds

17i

18ij

19 i (The foregoing certification of

20 • this transcript does not apply to any

21 reproduction of the same by any means,

22 unless under the direct control and/or

23 ; supervision of the certifying shorthand

24 ; reporter. )

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