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TRANSCRIPTS NIGHT 5 / PAGE 1

Kevin: Welcomeeveryone, todayfiveofTheGreatHealthDebate.Wearemore thanhalfwayfinished, justaroundhalfwayfinished,withthisincredibleevent.Wehopeit’sbeenasfunforyouasithasforme.Therewasalotofdifferentopinionsandviewshere.IwanttourgeyoutostickarounduntiltheendbecauseMikeAdams,SeanCroxtonandIaregoingtohelpmakesenseofeverythingforyousoyoucanactuallyusethisinformationtogetontherighttrack.We’realsogoingtobedoingsomestuffafterTheGreatHealthDebatetokeepyouontrack,too.It’sallgoingtobefree.It’sgoingtobeontheRenegadeHealthBlog.That’sgoingtobereallygoodforyoutogetyourbearings,togeteverythingstraightandactuallyusethisinformationtoyourbenefit.

Justlikealltheotherevenings,thesetwodisagreeonafewdifferentthings.DavidWolfeandDanielVitalisbothareawealthofknowledge.You’regoingtowanttolistentothese.Davidhasbeenteachingnutritionforyears,allovertheworld.Danielwasarawfoodveganwhofoundoutwhathewasdoingwasn’tworkingforhimsohemadeaprettysignificantswitch.Tonightwewilldefinitelypromiseapower-packedeveningofinterestingandrevealingstrategiesandtips.

Beforewegetstarted,justlikeeverynightIdowanttotellyouthattheinformationcontainedinthispro-gramisforeducationalpurposesonlyandisnotintendedtodiagnosis,treatorcureanydisease.I’mseri-ousaboutthis.Alotofpeopleputindisclaimersjustbecause,butI’mseriousaboutthis.Youdowanttoworkwithahealthcarepractitionerbecausethey’reyourcoach.

Second,beforethecallstarts,there’sstilltimetotellafriend.Ontheright-handsideofthisblogyou’llseetheFacebook“like”.Youcanclickthat.Youcanpost“thegreathealthdebate.com”onyourTwitteraccount.Youcansendanemailthroughthetell-a-friendsystem,totheright.Youcandoawholebunchofthings.We’dloveforyoutosharethisinformationwithothers,particularlythiscallbecauseIthinkit’ssounique.

Ontotonight.FirstupisDavidWolfe.DavidWolfehasamaster’sdegreeinnutritionandabackgroundinscienceandmechanicalengineering.Heisconsideredoneoftheworld’stopauthoritiesonnaturalhealth,beauty,nutrition,herbalism,chocolateandorganicsuperfoods.He’saleaderinthefield withhisvi-sion,mission,educationandbusiness.Davidhasover15yearsofdedicatedexperienceandunderstand-ingoftheinnerworkings,thedelicatechemistryandhardcoremechanicsofthehumanbodyandhowthehumanbodyisaffectedbymodern-daystressorsoftoday’sfast-paced,over-workedandunbalancedlifestyle,whichisliterallyakillertoourbeauty,healthandlongevity.He’stheauthorofthebest-sellingbook,“TheSunfoodDietSuccessSystem”andco-founderof“TheBestDayEver.”David,welcometoTheGreatHealthDebate.”

David: Howareyoudoing,Kevin?Thankyouforhavingme.

Kevin: I’mgoinggreat.I’mthrilledthatyou’reonthecallhere.We’regoingtobetalkingaboutalotoftheresearchthatyou’vedonearoundthevegetarian,vegan,rawfooddiet,aswellaslongevityandhowitappliestothetypeofdietthatyoueat.Whydon’tyoufirststartbyexplainingofwhoyouareandthenwe’llgetintosomeofthedeeperquestions.

David: Well,IguessI’marenegadenutritionist.I’vebeenworkinginthenutritionfieldfor17years,professionally,andasahobbyfor22yearsnow,sinceIwas18yearsold.WhenIfirstchangedmydietarounditwasbecauseIwasfindingoutanddiscoveringstepbystepthatIwasallergictodairyproducts.Iwasalsoprobablyallergictowheat,aswell.IbegantojustswitchthingsaroundatthatyoungageandstepbystepInavigatedmywayintoarawfooddiet,about17yearsnow.I’vebeenarawfoodisteversince,kindofamoldedrawfoodist,moldedtothetimes,notinthenaturalhygienesenseofarawfoodist,notintheprimi-

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darngood.There’sareallygoodonecalled“EvolutionCruncher” thatIreallyhaveenjoyedthatblowsapartthetheoryofevolution.Thenthere’sthebookswrittenbyMichaelCremo,forexample“TheHiddenHistoryoftheHumanRace”or“ForbiddenArcheology.”Iwasreadinganamazingbookcalled,“TheSonofGod”byafriendofmine,GregorySams.Hisbrother,bytheway,istheguywhoisbehindGreenandBlacksChocolate.Anyway,inthatbookhecitesresearchthatevenrotifera,littletinysingle-celledorgan-isms,oneofhisfriendsunderamicroscopetrackedsothathecouldtrackthebehaviorofindividualsin-gle-celledorganisms,eventhoselittleorganismshavepersonalities.Theyhavetastes.Theylikecertainfoods.Theydon’tlikecertainfoods.Eventheyhavethisspectrumofalgaethattheyeat,someofthemwillalwayschoosethispieceofitandsomeofthemwillalwayschoosetheotherendofitbecausetheyhavedifferentpreferencesinsideoftheirownnaturaldiet.Thataddsevenmorecomplexitytothewholethingbecauseitappearsthathisfreewillbusinessispartofallofcreation.Everycreateengagesinit.Abigwaytheyengageinitisbyfoodchoices.

IguesswhatI’msaying,Kevin,iswe’reinanexceedinglycomplexsituationintermsofjusttryingtotakeadietandsay,“Thisisright.That’swhatyouhavetoeat.Everythingelseisridiculous.”Don’t.Ithinkwhatwe’reintomoreis,“OK,let’slimitourexposuretomutagens.Let’slimitourexposuretocarcinogens.Let’slimitourexposuretokarmas.Let’slimitourexposuretounknowns.”Thatismoreofwherethedietgameisbeingplayed.

Kevin: Whataresomeofthebiggestissues,sinceyou’recomingfromavegetarianside?Whataresomeofthebiggest issuesabouteatingmeatoreatingdairy?Ithinkyoujustmentionedafewofthem.Couldyoubreakthemoutalittlebit?

David: Ithinkthefirstandforemostissueisakarmathatyoutakeon.Ifyoukillandgetinvolvedinkillingthensomehowthatbecomespartofyourlife.Itdoesaffectyourbehavior.Itaffectsyourconsciousness,notnecessarilyinagoodorbadway.

I’vebeenavegetarianfor20years.It’snotnecessarilyinagoodorbadway.It’sjustdifferent.Idon’twanttohavebloodonmyhandsbasedonmyexperience,butIcan’tsaythat’severybody’sexperience.That’stheancientHinduidea.

TheHindusareamazing.5,000yearsasvegetariansonthisearthasawholeraceofpeople.Whatanamazing accomplishment that is. I’d love to see a study to celebrate theHindus accomplishment ofvegetarianismratherthanbashingvegetarianism,whichyouseesomuchof.Let’scelebratewhatthesepeoplewereabletodowiththeircivilizationtogetintoasituationwheretheyreveredthesacredcowandtheychosetosupportlife.

There’salsotheissueofthecrossover.Wheredoesthecrossoverhappen?Whatseparatesameat-eaterfromavegetarian?Thenwegetintoallkindsofareas.Thedeerantlerisagreatexampleofthat.Allthedairyproductsareagreatexample.TheChineseherb,thepearl,whichismadeoutofanoyster’spearlcrushedupasapowderandeaten.Thatcanbeprocuredfromanoysterwithoutkillingtheoyster.Colos-trumandalltheirproductscanbeprocuredwithoutkilling.Thedeerantlercanbeprocuredwithoutkilling.Beeproducts,whataboutthat?Youcanalsoprocurebeeproductswithoutkilling.There’sawholeareaofcrossoverthatagainbringsusbacktotheFortianideaofcontinuitythatwejustcan’tcutoffandsaythisisallonethingandthat’sallanotherthing.

ItendtobeonthesidethatsaysIwanttolivelowonthekarmicchain.Idon’twanttogetinvolvedinthekillingofsentientanimalslikemammalsandpoultryandevenfish.I’mjustnotinvolvedinthat.Ithasnothing

tiveskillssenseofarawfoodistbutsomeonewhotakesadvantageofthetechnologiesthatareavailabletoliveintheworldthatweliveintoday.

I’vedoneabout2,000liveeventsandI’mreallyapublicspeaker.IgivevoicestofoodsandtoherbsandsuperfoodsthatarenotavailablemostofthetimeuntilIcomealongandgiveavoicetothatmessageortothatfood,thatherb,thatsuperfoodorwhatever.That’smyvocation.

Intheprocess,ofcourse,ofbeinginthisindustry,I’vemetprettymucheverybodyandseenitall.It’sapretty interestingfield, forsure. It’s takentheveganandvegetariandebateversus themeat-eaterde-batetoawholeotherlevel.Itusedtobe,“I’mavegetarian.OK,I’mameat-eater.”Nowit’s,“Areyouasuperfood-ist,superherbalist,rawfoodist,rawvegan,rawvegetarian,rawmeat-eater?”It’sgottenwelladvancedinmanyofthesedifferentareasbecauseofthetimesthatwe’rein.

IbelievethatI’maproductofthetimesandeverybodywhoisprobablyonyourprogramisaproductofthetimes.We’reinatimeofcrisisandnotknowingandwantingtogobackandfigureitoutforourselves,ofdevelopingadifferentkindofnutritionsystemforthefuture.SomewhereinthemiddleofallthatiswhatIcallagoodtime.That’swhyI’vestayedwithallthisstuff.

Kevin: Wheredoweneedtogo?Whatdoyouthinkisanoptimaldietandwhatdoweneedtodotomakesurethatwemaintainthis?

David: I’mgoingtoevadeyourquestionbecausewhatI’velearnedovertheyearsisthereisnooptimaldiet.It’sindividualtotheperson.IguessI’mtakingacannedresponseandsteppingawayfrompositivism,whichistheideathatwecanactuallyknowforsurewhatisrightandwhatistherightthingforeverybodyorwhatisrealforsure100percent.ItakemoreofapositionwhichwecallaFortianposition,ifyouknowwhatthatmeans,basedonthewritingsofCharlesFortthatthereisnotruemoral/immoral.Everythingexistsonagradationbetweenthosetwo,moral-immoral,right-wrong.Theideaofmaterial-immaterial.There’snoexactextremeanswerofthisbeingthetruthorthatbeingabsolutelythetruth.

WhatIdoisgiveavoicetovegetarianandveganfoods,forthemostpart,oratleastfoodsthatdon’tin-volvekilling,becauseIhavevegetarianethics.UltimatelyitisapersonalchoicethatI’vemademylifetolivewithoutkillingandtonotendorsekillingofanimals.Thatis100percentaprejudicethatIhave,justlikeameat-eaterwouldsaythattheyeatmeatbecausetheyhaveto.No,theydon’t.It’sbecausetheyhaveaprejudiceforitfirstthatorientsthemtowardsthatparticularchoice.Idobelieveifyoureallywanttobeavegetarianyoucanbetoday,becausewehavethetechnology.Thatmayhavenotbeentrue100yearsagobuttodayit’seasier.

Tobeaveganisalittlebittougher.Ifyouabscondanimalsourcesoffatinyourdiet,forexamplecheese…Vegetarianscaneatcheese.Let’ssaywecallaneggavegetarianchoice,anon-fertileegg,thenthere’sfatpresentinthere.Ifyoubecomeavegananddon’thaveanyofthatstuffthenyouhavetobealotmorecarefulandalotmoreeducated.Itmayormaynotberightforyourbodytype.

Kevin: Whyareweindividual?Youwouldthinkthateveryspecieswouldhaveaspecificdiet.Whydowehavethisindividuality?

David: Iknewthiswasgoingtocomeup.Iplayedwithhowtoanswerthistypeofquestionforthelastcoupleofdays.Theanswertothequestionisit’saproductofstudyingDarwinismsinceIwasfiveyearsold.It’saproductofstudyingcreationismforthelast15yearsandthebookswrittenoncreationism,whicharepretty





Iwouldsaythatmyexperienceinvegetarianism,veganism,Igrewupasameat-eater,isthatifpeoplehaveneurologicalproblemsthebest typeofdiet for thembasically issomething that’srich infishandvegetables, lowinsugar,high inseaweed.Youcankindofdirectandangle,but thathastobecross-referencedagainstwheretheylive,whataltitudethey’reat,whattheirgenetichistoryisandotherfactorsincludingbloodtypeorotherthingstogetevenmorespecificthanthat.

Kevin: Youjustmentionedbloodtype.Relevantdoyouthinkthisis?Haveyoufoundittobegoodmostofthetime?

David: There’sagreatbookthatwaswrittenaboutbloodtypethat’scalled,“TheAnswerisinYourBloodType.”GabrielCousinsturnedmeontothat.Thatactuallyhasverygoodresearchinit.Forexample,ifyou’reabloodtypeB,generallybloodtypeBs,intotooverthewholegrouping,areallergictochicken.Sothere’sthingslikethatthatareinthatbookthatIwouldlookatifyou’rereallyinterestedindietandnutrition.

There’salsootherfactors.GenerallybloodtypesAandABarecapableofdigestingseedsthatarecookedandlegumesthatarecookedmuchbetterthanbloodtypeOs.That’sthatideaofagrariancivilizationsandmorevegetarian-basedcivilizationsaremorebloodtypeAorABthansaybloodtypeO.Iwouldn’tsaythatyoucouldjumpsofarandsaythatifyou’rebloodtypeOyouhavetobeameat-eater,it’sjustthatyoucan’tbearice-eating,bean-eatingvegetarianaseasilyasabloodtypeA,forexample.

Kevin: Gotcha.Alotoftimespeoplewillaskthatifyou’regoingtoeatvegetarianwheredoyougetyourprotein?Canyoubreakthisdowninawaywherewecanunderstandwhatexactlyproteinisandwhywecangetthisfromplants?

David: Iwanttomentionthatthiscomesupinthebeginningstages,Ibelieve,ofvegetarianandveganargu-ments.Whereitendsupisinthisareaofmarineoilsandthosehyper-oils,thoseomega-3sandtheleci-thinsandphospholipids.Theyareamuchmoreimportantaspectofwhatcanmakesomebodysuccessfulasavegetarianornot.

Whenwegettoproteinthat’sprettymuchbeencompletelycracked.Allthesuperfoods,beepollen,royaljelly,blue-greenalgaes,spirulina,marinephytoplankton,chlorella,gojiberry, inchiberry,macahas17aminoacids.EveryotheroneIjustlistedisacompleteproteinsource,soithasanicecompleteproteinprofile.

There are raw rice proteins, bio-fermented rice proteins that havea very bio-available protein profile.That’skindofwhatwe’relookingfornow.Arewegettingthecompleteproteinfromourfoodanddowegetthatinmostoreverymeal?Ifwe’rethetypeofpersonwhoneedsahighamountofproteininordertomaintainstablebloodsugar,thatcanbedonenowwithsuperfoods,withhempprotein,forexample,withriceprotein,beepollen,etc.anditkindofsolvesthatissueofneedingtomixriceandbeanstogetheratahigherlevelofadvancementinthenutritionfield.Onthelowestlevelriceandbeanstogetherkindofgivesyouaquasisomewhatprotein-likemealwhereassuperfoodsjustnailitcompletelyandtotallyandeliminatetheproteinissuefromtheequation.

Kevin: Throughoutyourownpersonaldietoverthelast17years,canyougiveussomeinsightintotimeswhereyourdietstruggledalittlebitandmaybesomeoftheadjustmentsthatyoumadetomakesurethatyouwereontherightpathdoingthisforalongperiodoftime?Ithinkthatwouldhelppeoplewhoareonthesamepathasyou.

todowithwhatI’mabout.I’maboutplants.I’maplantpersonandthat’sgoingtobemyfocusformylife.

ButIcannotgooutthereandtellanybodythatthisisthebestdietforyou,becauseitmaynotbe.Also,howwouldIknow?

Kevin: Whenyou’removing intosomeof thesevegetarianproducts,eggs,dairy,are therenutrients in thesespecificfoodsthatmaybevegansneedsorcantheygetthemfromothersources?I’mtryingtogetagoodindicationofnutritionallywhatsomeoneneedstobehealthy.Maybethat’sabetterquestion.

David: OK.Ithinkthat’sprobablywhatyouweredrivingatwithyourotherquestion.It’savery,veryimportantquestion.Iwroteinmybook,“TheSunfoodDiet”yearsagothatreallythemainthingaboutavegetarian,themainideaofarawvegetarianorrawveganisswitchingoveryourcaloriesourcesfromananimalfatcaloriesource,animalfleshfat,overtosayeitherdairyfatand/ornutfat,seedfat.That’syourprimarycaloriesource.

That’sthethingaboutrawfood.Itstripsawayallofthefalsecaloriesources.Forexample,whenyoucookriceyouturnitintowhatIwouldcallafalsecaloriesourceinthesensethatinnatureyoucan’tprocurethatkindofcaloriesource.Youhavetocreateitartificially.Thereforeyoucreateanotheralternativecaloriesourceasavegetarian,bycookingrice,thatisn’tavailabletoyouasarawvegetarian.That’sadistinctionIwanttobringin.

Thenthere’sthedistinctionofwhat’sinthefats.Marineoils,what’sthestorythere?There’sallkindsofimportantthingsinmarineoils.Phospholipids,forexample,realomega-3likeDHA,EPA,whicharereallythemostcrucialomega-3fattyacids.There’salsoverypowerfulanti-inflammatorysignalersinmarineoils.WhenIsaymarineoilsI’mtalkingaboutthingsthatlikefishoil,whichiskindofpoorquality,goingallthewaydowntokrilloilormusseloil,whichishighqualityinmyopinion.Thosethingsareveryimportantforcertainindividuals.Forexample,peoplewhohaveneurologicalproblemsorneurologicaldisorders.

Goingfurtherthanthat,canwegetthosefromvegetarianorvegansources?Theanswerisyes,wecan,frommarinephytoplanktonnow.IbroughtoverfromEuropeakiloofmarinephytoplanktonpowderwhichI’vebeenpoundingintoeveryday.Thestufftasteslikecrabcakes.Ittastesunbelievable.Ittasteslikecrabcakesfromwhenyouwereakid,orshrimporsomethinglikethat.It’sloadedwithchlorophyllandEPAandanincrediblearrayofphospholipids,afullarrayofastaxanthinandallthexanthenes,thecarotenoidsthatprotecttheEPA.

Thereforetechnologicallyifwe’recleverwecanbegintofindwaysofmeetingtheneedsthatwehaveformarineoils,thehigh-gradeomega-3,whichisnotavailablefromhemp.It’snotavailablefromflax.It’snotavailablefromchia.Wecannavigateawayfromsayakrilloiloramusseloilandgodirectlytothemarinephytoplankton.That’sbecomingmoreandmorepossibleinthefuture.It’salsoalotcleaner,too.Youcangrowmarinephytoplanktoninacompletelycontrolledenvironment.Thereforeyouloweryourexposuretowhat’sintheoceans.Ofcoursewhenyoudoafishliveroil,likecodliveroil,youdon’tlimityourexposureatall.You’regettingblastedbyeverythingthatthatfishhasdealtwithinitslifeintermsofpollution,toxinsintheocean,petroleum,etc..That’sjustonenarrowlittlearea.

Thenthere’sthewholestoryaboutlecithin.Eggyolkshavelecithininthem.Lactose[?]isthewordforegginGreek.Lecithinnow,becauseoftechnology,canbederivedfromseedsandconcentrated.It’salsoavailableinbeeproductslikeroyaljellyandbeepollen.Lecithinisaveryimportantphospholipid,brain-enhancing,anti-depressanttypeofmoleculethat’simportantforpeoplewithneurologicaldisorders.





whetherwhoever is listeningnowwantstoeatavegetarianorvegandietorarawfooddietoranimalproductdiet,Ithinkeveryonewantstolivelongerandlivehealthier.Whataresomeofthethingsweneedtobeawareofwhenitcomestoexpandingourlifetime?

David: There’sarealreasonformewhyIstaythewaythatIstay,whyIdon’tstarteatinganimalproducts.OneisIdon’twanttogetinvolvedinkillingbutthere’sanothermajorreason.ThatisIdon’tknowhowtoeatthatstuff.Idon’tknowhowmuchistoomuch.Idoknowfromtheresearchthatthelessyoueatthelongeryoulive.That’safact.That’sascientificfact.That’sonethingwecansayaboutlongevity.Thelessyoueatthelongeryoulive.

ThewayI’meatingnowit’samazing.WhatIeatcaloricallycan’tbe2,000caloriesinadaybutyetIweight185pounds.I’mlikeabearoverhere.Idon’thavearippedstomach.I’mnotaleanvegetarianvegan.Ilivebasicallyonsuperfoodsandsuperherbs,butnotthatmuchofthem.Whatarelief.Thatissucharelief.IfeellikeIjustdon’tage.Ineverfeelanykindofacheorpainofanykindofanythingwhatsoever,notlowerbackpain,soremuscles.Ever.That’scompletelyoutofthepicturetotally.

ThatindicatestomethatI’montherighttrack.It’snotevenathought.It’snotinmyconsciousness.Some-timesIthinkthingsaregoinggood.I’m40thisyear.Peoplesaywhenyougettobe50thenit’sgoingtobelikethis…Peoplesaidthatabout40.“Whenit’s40it’sgoingtobedifferent,”andblah,blah,blah.It’snotdifferent.Iwillsaythis,too,myreflexesareasfastasthey’veeverbeen.Myreflexesareveryfast.ThatchangedalotformewhenIbecamearawfoodist.Ibecameveryfast,likereflex-wise.

I’vealsobeenadrummerforthebetterpartof20years,notthatgoodofonebutIkeeppracticing.That’sbeenreallyamazingbecauseIthinkthewaythatIeathasalottodowithdexterity,theabilitytocontinuetoplayallthethingsthatI’vealwayslovedtoplayandtoimprove,toevenbefasternowthanI’vebeenbefore.ThereareadvancementsIjustmadethisyearin2010.

Inlongevityscienceyou’vegottoeatlesstolivelonger.Thestrategythenbecomes,“WhatamIgoingtoeatinordertolimitmyexposuretomutagens,carcinogens,pesticides,herbicides,hormones,theen-vironment?”Ihavetosay,whenyoustartthrowinganimalproductsintheequation,youdonotlimityourexposure.Youincreaseyourexposuretoalldifferentkindsofunknowns.ThosearethingsIamnottakingoninmylife.

Kevin: Canyoumaybegiveusanideaofthedifferenceintheamountoftoxicityofanimalproductsversusplant?

David: IneedtoresearchthatandupdatethatbecausetherewasastatisticthatwasputoutbyJohnRobbinsinhisbook,“DietforaNewAmerica,”thatwasessentiallysayingthatifyouhadonepoundofconventionalvegetables,theamountofpesticidesthatareinonepoundofconventionalmeatis20timesgreater.Inconventionaldairyproductstherearefivetimesgreater,orfiveandahalftimesgreater.Itwassomesta-tisticlikethat.

I’vedonesubsequentresearchviatheUSDAandthestuffthattheypublishandbooksthatareoutthereindicatinghowmanyhiddenpesticideslikeheptachlorandEDDandethylenediamene,themetabolitesofDDT.DDEisonethat’sveryprevalentineverylivingmammalinNorthAmerica.EverysinglecreatureiscontaminatedwithDDE,includingus.AndDDT.ButDDEalso.Thesearecarcinogens.

Youhearanargumentalotoftimesaboutlike,“Idon’tconsumeflaxbecauseit’stooestrogenic.”Well,wherearealltheseestrogenscomingfrom?They’recomingfrompesticides.Surethere’sphytoestrogens

David: Ithinkthetimeperiodsthatyou’rereferencingarealittlebittoofarinthepastformeatthispoint.We’retalkingabout17yearsago.I’mthinkingofthingslikeifnutsareOKorifnotOKthenhowmuchisOK?IwouldlookatAnnWigmore’sbooksandshewouldsayahandfulofnutsinadayisenough.AtthattimeI’m23yearsold.I’mlike,“Ahandfulofnutsaday.Areyoukidding?I’mnotgoingtosurvive.”Ihadn’tgonethroughthemetamorphosisthatoccursthatshrinksyourstomach,thatmakesyoumoreefficientasafood-digesterthatbringsyoutoapointofeatingonehandfulofnutsadayandfeelinglikeyou’reOK.Thenshewouldtalkabouthalfanavocado.I’dbelike,“Areyoukidding?I’mgoingtostarve.”Iwouldeatlikefiveavocadoesinaday.Six,seven,eightinaday.ThatwaswhatIneededtomeetcalories.NowIcan’tdothat.

SoeverythingchangedovertimebecauseIstuckwithit.Yourstomachshrinks.Ourstomachsaretotallyexpanded.They’redistended.They’reparalyzedmostofthetimewithmassiveamountsoffriedfoodandcheeseandboiledandbakedeverythingandtotallymis-combinedfoods.

Bytheway,onfoodcombining,thatwasahugehelptome,evenbeforeIbecameraw.Thatwassome-thingIdidreligiouslyforyears.IfIhadbread,likeIwouldhavepizzawithoutcheeseonitandthenIwouldeatthatwithasalad.Iwouldneverhave,forexample,pizza,riceandbreadtogetherorcookedcornorsomething.Iwouldalwayscombinedonecookedfoodwithasaladandonetype.Thatreallyhelpedme.That’sbasicallytheideaoffoodcombining.ItdefinitelyguidedmetowhereIamtoday.

Nowitdoesn’tmatter.Nowmystomachisn’tasbig.I’vebeendoingtwoVitamixblendersfullofsuper-foodswithchagateaandonebowlofkindofawintersalad.Icangetawaywiththat.It’sreallyeasyatthispoint.Intheolddaysjustgettingenoughcalories,feelinglikemystomachwasfull,thatIwasdigestingthingsOK,wassomethingIwasnumbto.Iwasnumbtothefeelingofhowmuchwasenough.Youjusthavetotrusttheprocessandallowthenaturalfoodstoworkonyouandgetawayfromallthischaosofjusteatinganythingandeverythingatanygiventimetotallyatrandom.

Kevin: Youjustmentioneddigestion.Doyoufeelaveganorvegetarianeaterneedstohavemoredigestiveen-zymesortakedigestiveenzymesupplementsthanameat-eater?Orisitjustaboutthesame?

David: Differentpeoplehavedifferentbeliefsaboutthat.Somepeoplesayifyou’vebeenavegetarianalongtimeyouneedsomethingthatgivesyoualittlebitmorefireinyourgutbecauseyouhaven’tbeenworkingyourmusclesoutinyourgutinthesamewayasdigestingananimalproduct.Idon’tknowifthat’strueforme.Icouldseethatitcouldbetrueforlikeacarbo-comavegetarian,someonewhohasbeenonacarbdiet,likeabrownricekindofdiet,andthere’sreallynotalotoffireinthereanywhere.Ieattonsofsuperfoods.Ieatwildherbs.Ieatwildfood.

Ifyougooutintheserocksbymyhousethereisalichenthatgrowsontheserocks.It’sextremelytough.Ittasteslikemeat.It’sasrichasmeat.It’smineraldenselikemeatis.It’scalledrocktripe.Tripeislikeanintestinalsausagetypeofmaterialthat’saEuropeandish.Thisisjustawildlichen.IeatthingslikethatthatIthinkkeepsmydigestivefireverystrong.

Ithinkthere’salsogeneticfactorsandlifestylefactors.I’maveryfieryperson.I’mverypitaorientedandsothereforeIhavealittlebitmoredigestivefirethansaysomeonewhoisveryskinny,airy-fairythatneedssomethinglikedigestiveenzymesorhydrochloricacidsupplementsinordertoreallydigestthefoodthat’sinfrontofthem.

Kevin: You’vedonealotofresearchintermsof longevity.Iwanttomovetheconversationintothatbecause




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Sothenwegotothenextlevelwhichishotsaunasandsweatingthestuffout.Yes,I’mabigfanofhotsaunasandbigfanofinfraredsaunas.You’vegottosweatitoutandopenupyourtissueswiththevitaminB3,whichseemstobeaverygoodandactivedilatorofyourtissues.Youstartat100mg.Whenyougetto200mgmostpeoplestartfeelingaheatingreactionorthatit’sreactingwithyourskin.Asyougetto500mgyou’lldefinitelyfeelit.Ifyougoto1,000you’llfeellikeyou’redyingbecauseeverythingstartsopeningupdramatically.Youwouldcombinethatwithsomemovement,maybegetareboundedorasauna.Youputallofthosepiecestogetheroveralongperiodoftime,plusacleandiet,plusknowledgeofavoidingexposuresthatnormallycomehaphazardly,likeplasticbottlesfordrinkingwaterorwhatever.Thenyoustarttogetintoazonewhereyouaredetoxified.Youstartgettingbacktonormal,wherewe’resupposedtobe.

Kevin: Youmentionedthatyouspentalotoftimeeatingwildfoodsandherbs.Whataresomeoftheherbsthatyouthinkareessentialforlongevity?

David: I’mahugefanof themedicinalmushroomsof thecircumpolarregionof thetemperateclimatesof theworld.I’mabouttodrinkamushroomtearightnow.Whatarethose?Thingslikereishimushroom,chagamushroomforthelasttwodays.Itwasgoingtobeachapterinabook.Atthispointitlookslikeit’sgoingtobeabook.I’malready50pagesintoitIcanalreadyhardlybelievewhatI’mfindingoutaboutchagamushroom.Peoplewhodochagamushroom,numberone,theydon’tgetcancer.Numbertwo,it’stotallydelicioussotheylivehappy.Numberthree,it’salongevitysuperherbofthehighestorder.Sothatwouldbeonmylist.

Sowe’vegot reishiandchaga.Thenwe’vegotkindof the forestmagicandenchantedstuff likewildshitake,whichisinmytearightnow,who’sreputationprettymucheverybodyknowsaboutatthispoint,atleastthoseintogourmetfoodorinterestingtypesoffoods.Thenthere’smaitake,whichalsohasverypowerfulanti-cancerpropertiesandisgenerallyconsideredalongevitytonic.ThereareotheronesintheforestthatIreallylike.Iliketogetcurioussometimes.I’vegotbirchpolypore,whichisanotherkindoftoplevelmushroom.ItakeaboutfiveofthoseandImixthemintoateaanddrinkthateverydaywhenI’muphereintheNorth.Iconsiderthattobeveryimportantlongevitymaterial.

Youcangetthoseaspowders,alreadyfreeze-dried.It’savailableinhealthfoodstoresincapsules.Ifyoucan’tgettherealstuff,gowiththatstuff,forsure.Thetechnostuff,thefreeze-driedmyceliumpowdersthatareincapsulesorthepowdersyoucanbuyonlineareverypowerfulalso.It’snotlostjustbecausethey’regrownincontrolledenvironments.Thewildstuffhasitsmagic.Thesefreeze-driedmyceliumshaveadifferentmagicbecausethey’remycelium.It’snotjustthefruitingbody,ifyouknowwhatthatmeans.Ifyoudon’tknowwhatthatmeansdon’tworryaboutit,orhitrewindandlistenagain.

I’mabigfanofhorsetailandnettles.Thosearetwohugelongevitytonics,inmyopinion.AllthebodyofinformationthatRudolphSteinerbroughttotheearthandhe’stalkingabouttwoallthetime,horsetailandnettles.Here’soneofthegreatsagesofourtimeandhe’sreallyontotwoherbs.Formeit’slikeano-brainer.I’monthat.Iwanttoseewhatthat’sallabout.

Intheearlydays,goingovertotheUKadozenyearsagoandlivingoverthereanddoingeventsoverthere,weusedtodonettlejuice.Wildnettlejuice,fresh.Whatanamazingtonicthatis.That’sadetoxim-mortalitytonicifthereisone.Thenyoucandothedriednettletea.

Horsetail,ofcourse,cannotreallybeeatenrawinhighamountsbecauseithasavitaminB1inhibitorinit.Soyoucoulddothedriedstuffandthenmakeateaoutofthat.IlovetogodownrightbelowwhereIlive

inflax,yes.Butifyoueatanimalproductsthere’sanexposure,potentially,tothingslikeDDE,thatareinorganicraisedpoultrythesameasthey’reinconventionalpoultry.They’reinwildbisoninthesamewaythey’reinconventionalcow.Thereisafat-solubleestrogenpresentinthoseanimalfoodsthatpeopleareget-tingexposedto,eventhoughtheysay,“There’snoestrogeninmyfood.Ieatanimalfoods.”Allthatstory.

Wejusthavetotakeittoaveryhighlevelofhowfullonarewegoingtobeaboutprotectingyourselffromthese75,000differentchemicalsthathavebeendumpedintotheenvironmentsince1940.I’mveryintenseaboutthat.Forexample,ImadeachagateaandsomeonestuckaspoonintherethathassomekindofaplasticalmostlikeacookwaretypeofTefloncoatingoverthespoonandtheytriedtostickitinmychagatea.Iwaslike,“Noway!Thatain’tgoinginmytea.Idon’twantthattouchingit.”Hotteawiththattypeofmaterial.I’mjustveryspecificaboutthat.Idon’tletanyofthosethingsflyby. That’swhy Idon’tdrinkwateroutofplasticbottles,ever.I’mvery,veryontopofthatkindofstuff.

Kevin: Howwouldsomeonewhohasbeeneatingsomeofthesemeatproductsdetoxfromsomeofthesecom-pounds?

David: It’sverydifficult.There’sstrategies.Ireallythinkthatyou’vegottoopenyourtissuesupusingdesignerdetoxproductsaswellasjustnormaltraditionaldetoxstrategies.You’vegottothrowinahotsaunaintothewholemix,andinfraredsaunaintothemix.AndI’mreallyafanofvitaminB3anditsmetabolitesfordetoxification.Also,someofthegreatmedicinesthatareavailableoutthere.

Solet’sstartfromthebeginningthere.Let’stalkaboutstandarddetoxprotocols.Colonics.Herbaldetoxmonth-longprogramslikewhat’sputoutbyHealthforceorBlessedHerbsorRiseandShineorEjuva.Thosetypesofmonth-longprogramsarereallygoodbecausetheybuildyourstrengthandmomentum.Fastingisverygoodwhenyouarestrongenoughtofastandyou’renutrifiedenoughtofast.Thesethingsallincreaseyourresolve,yourabilitytocontrolyourbehavior.

Anotherreallyamazingthingisjuicefasting,bothgreenjuicefastingandfastingonapplejuiceandcitrusjuice,whichIliketodo.Idon’treallylikefastingongreenjuice.Itthrowsmeoutofbalance.Idoreallylikefastingonorangejuiceorapplejuice.That’ssomethingIcando.IjustdidafastwhenIwasinBelgiumacouplemonthsago.MaybeinaweekIhadlessthan20cupsofjuice,notevenglassesbutjustcups.Ididalmostlikeadryfast.That’sreally,reallynicefordetoxingandallowingyourbodytogetontopofproblemsthathavebeensittingtherethatyouneverhadtheenergytogettobecausewe’reconstantlydigesting.Digestionisthenumber-oneenergysapperthereis.Digestiontakesmoreenergythananythingelse.

Imentionedcolonics.Ifyoudon’tknowwhatthatmeans,checkitout.Lookitup.Getinvolvedingettingsomecolonicsandgetthatstuffflushedout.You’llbeamazedbywhatcomesout.

Thenwegetintothedesignerdetoxstuff.That’sstufflikeMSM,high-dosevitaminC,zeolytes,blackmicaextractandotherthingsofthatnaturethathaveanacidityanddrawtothemselvessomeoftheharsherenvironmentaltoxinslikedepleteduranium,whichisaffectinglotsofpeople,eventhoughwegetthisthingthat,“Ohno,it’soverthereontheothersideoftheworld.”No,it’shereandit’saffectingusverydeeply.It’sthenumberonecause,inmyopinion,ofthyroidcancer.That’sjustmyopinion.

Whenyoustarttakinginthesethingsyou’reabletogetoutthemercury,thearsenic,thecompoundsthathavebeenstuckinthereandalsothefireretardantsthatareonourmattressthatweinhaledwhenwewerekids,formaldehydeinthecarpetsandstufflikethatandevensomeoftheestrogenicpesticides.




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youhavethischemicaltobaccolikewhat’scomeaboutinthe20thcentury,it’sthemosttoxicthingintheworld.Whatyou’redoingistaking4,000chemicalsthatareinacigaretteandyou’reusingnicotinetodrivethatintoyourtissuestothedepthofyoursoul.IfyougotoanAmazonianshamanandyousay,“Tobaccodoesn’tcausecancer,doesit?”Theydon’thaveanyrecordofanylungcancerandthey’realwaysverylong-liveddownthere.ImetashamanIwentanddrankiawaska[?]withinthejungleintheAmazonthat’sbeensmoking tobaccosincehewas12.He’s90nowand looksgreat.He looksamazing.But it’snotchemicaltobacco.

ThenaturalstuffisbasicallyvitaminB3.Soit’sadetoxifier.That’sitsmethodofaction.It’salsoanmao-ia.Soit’satypeofmao-inhibitorbutit’sanAinsteadofaB.Cat’sclawisaB,fotiisaB.ThisisanA.There-foreit’sinthehighestclassoflongevitymao-inhibitorsthereis.I’mjustthrowingthatintotheequationjustsothatwestarttomakesenseoutofthedatathat’souttherewheretheguyhasbeensmokingfor100years,he’s117andhowintheworldcanhestillbealive?Whenyouunderstandthewholepictureitmakesmoresense.Westarttodrawbetterconclusions.

There’sthenourishmentangle.You’vegottohaveenoughmineralsinyourdiet.That’swherethesuper-foodscomein,justtomakesurewehaveenoughmineralsandproteinandoverallspectrumforrebuildingtissue.That’sanotherpieceofthelongevityequation.

Ilikepassionflowerasanherb.Ididn’tmentionthatonebutthathasalongevityeffectonyoubyholdingyourgoodhormonesinplacesothattheydon’tcascadeoraromatize,isthewordinscience,andbecomebadestrogen.Passionflower,inmyopinion,isoneofthemostimportantherbsintheworldandoneofthemostimportantlongevityherbsanddefinitelyanherbIwouldlookatverycloselyifyouwanttokeepyourmanhoodorwomanhoodlonger,goingintothelateyearsofyourlife,menopause,etc.

Kevin: Iwanttocomebackalittlebittotheinitialdebatehere.Whydoyouthinkalotofrawfoodersorveganeatersaremovingintoeatingrawanimalproductsorevenanimalproducts?

David: Ithinkbynaturepeoplewhoarerawfoodistsareextremists.Forexample,I’manextremistbut…inmyrightmindIwouldnevereatrawmeat.Iwouldalwayscookit.Iwouldnevereatitraw.Westartedcookingmeatforareason.Youdramaticallyloweranumberofthings.Fromaspiritualperspectiveyoulowerthekarma,soyou’renotgettingblastedwiththeenergydirectly,oftheanimal.Two,there’sawholebunchofunknownsgoingonwhenyouhaveapieceofrawmeat.I’vehadtwofriendsdiefromeatingrawmeat.Youdon’twanttohavedinneranddie.Itcanbetakentoalmostasillyextreme.

Whatabout rawfish?Rawfish isabetterchoicebut rawfish is totallycontaminatedwith tapeworms.That’safact.Anybodycanlookupanybookonfishtapewormsandgetthedetails.Formepersonally,I’mnotexposingmyselftotapeworms.I’vedoneeverythingIcanoverthelast17yearstogetthatstuffoutofme.Butrawfoodiststendtobeofanextremenatureandit’skindoflikethisisthenextthingtojumponto.

Youhavetobecarefulatsomepointandcallit.Atsomepointyouhavetodecidethatthisiswhereyou’regoingwithyourlifeandyou’renotgoingtogothere.That’sjustintroducingtoomanyunknowns.It’sjustoutsideoftheboxforme.Juststicktoyourguns,whichIhavedonefor17years.

Rawmeatandtherawanimalfoodthingisnonewstome.I’vebeeninvolvedintherawfoodfieldforsolong.Irememberthedayswhenweusedtobattlethoseguys,waybackintheearlytimes.Thosepeoplewereeatingmassiveamountsofrawmeat,massiveamountsofrawdairy,eatingnovegetables,eating

heretothebeaverdamswherethespringwatercomesoutandthere’shorsetailgrowinginthesiltthat’sbackedupbehindthebeaverdam.It’sallgrowninspringwaterwithsiltthat’sbeenbuiltup.Thathorsetailisnextlevel,beyondnextlevel.

AnotherbigonethatI’mreallygettingintoiswildasparagus.I’vebecomeabletoidentifywildasparagus.It’sawesome.IwasinFloridatheotherdayandboom,there’swildasparagusgrowingrightnexttothisficustree.Wildasparagusroot,inmyopinion,isanamazinglongevitytonic.

Ilikethetropicals,paud’arcoandcat’sclaw,fortoniclongevity.AndthenIreallyliketheChineseherbs.OutoftheChineseherbsIthinkthere’stwothatleadinthelongevityconversation.Numberoneisastra-gulus,whichIdoprettymucheveryday.Anotheroneishoshuwhoorfotiorpolygonamultiflorum.That’sanawesomesuperherb.Whatamiraculousthingthatis.

Ithrowinontopofthatgojiberry,royaljelly,intermsofsuperfoodsassociatedwithlongevity.Numberone,accordingtotheresearch,ischocolate.Chocolateisthenumberonelongevityfoodintheworldaccordingtotheresearch.Everybodywhobasheschocolate,theydothatwithoutcitinganyresearch.Iwanttopointthatout.Iwishsomebodywouldciteanyresearch,buttheycitenothing.Oneofthethingsaboutchocolateisifyoulookatthelongest-livedpeopleyou’llfindthattheyarehoneyeaters,oliveoileatersandchoco-lateeaters.Checkitout.Lookitup.GetonGoogleandstartpunchingupthelongest-livedpeopleintheworldandcheckouttheirdiet.You’llseethatthosethreefoodsarealwaysthere.

Kevin: Whatwouldyousayisthebiggestaspectoflongevity?Isitprotectingtheimmunesystem?Whatdothesefoodsandherbsdothatallowustolivelonger?

David: That’saverygoodquestion.Eachoneofthesetypesoffoodsandherbsdoessomethinginadifferentwaythentheotheronedoes.Sothere’smanydifferentpathstolongevity.Ididalotofresearchonlongev-ityabouttenyearsagoandcameacrossastunningidea.Thatis,thearchetypeoflongevityisnotwhatwethinkitis.Thepersonwhoisatpeacewiththeuniversewhoisadivinesagewhowalksthemountainsisdefinitelyonearchetypeoflongevitybutit’snottheonlyone,interestinglyenough.Theotherkindofpersonissomebodywhoisaworrywart,who’sconstantlyworryingaboutthings,whoisalmostneuroticabouteverything.Thosepeoplelivealongtime.I’vegottosay,mygrandmotherisoneofthosetypesofpeopleandmygrandmotherturned100thisyear.She’snevereatenrawfoodinherlife.ShehasdrankNewYorkCitywatersinceshewasborn.She’sneverseenahealthfoodoreatenanythingorganicunlessitwasthestuffshegrewuponwhenshewasakid.Shehadbothkneesreplaced,bothhipsreplaced,can’twalkanymore.Butshe’sstillgoing.She’sstillalive.It’sbecauseshehasthattypeofpersonality.

Goingtothestrictmaterialexplanationastowhat’sgoingonwiththeseherbsisthereisdefinitelyaneffectonlongevitywhensomebodyhasmao-inhibitortypeofcompoundsbecausetheykeepyourneurotrans-mittersinyourbloodstreamandavailabletoyourmetabolismlongerthanifyoudon’ttakemao-inhibitortypesofherbs.Hoshowhoo isoneof those typesofherbs. It’skindofanmao-inhibitor. Itkeepsthingsincirculationlonger.Cat’sclawisalsoanmao-inhibitor.It’snotastrongonelikethedrugsthatareoutthere,likeProzac,butProzacisartificial.Thesethingsarenatural.Sotheyhaveacompleteactionnotjustaone-sidedaction.Theyworkonhelpingtokeepthoseneurotransmittersinthebloodlongersoyougetmoreuseoutofthem.There’snoquestionthatthatisamajoraspectoflongevity.

There’sanotherwaythatcomesup.Anotherthingyou’llseeamongstthelongest-livedpeopleintheworldisthatthey’realwaystobaccosmokers.That’safact.Anybodycanlookthatupandit’strue.Sowhat’sabouttobacco?Well,firstofall,nicotineorniacin,whichisbasicallythesamething,isadriver.Sowhen





David: Theeffectofeatingtoomuchfatislikealiverparalysis.It’sasluggishness.It’sadrowsiness.It’safeelingoflosingyourenergy.Itcancauseconstipation.

Carbohydratesiskindofobvious.Weallknowwhatcarbocomalookslike.You’rebloodsugargetsblast-edtoohigh.Youhaveanover-insulinorahypoglycemicreactionwhichdropsyourbloodsugartoolowandyoucrash.Thatupanddownbloodsugarrollercoasterisverycommonamongstrawfoodistswhoeattoomuchfruitanddon’treallyhaveacarbohydratemetabolism.

Thenthere’stoomuchprotein.Forme,itactuallymakesmesick.IactuallystartfeelinglikeIover-bur-denedmysystem.It’saliverthing.It’sadigestivething.Itkindofjustshutsmedown.Isuddenlybecomecompletelysatiated,tothepointofbeingover-satiatedwhereIfeelill.That’sgoingtobedifferentforev-erybody.Somepeopleneedtohaveatablespoonofhempproteineverytwohoursonthehourinordertofeeltheirbloodsugarisbalanced.Notme.That’snothowI’mgoingtobeaffectedbyit.IfIdothat,bytheendofthedayI’llfeelcompletelyOD’dandI’llfeelillandI’llwanttothrowup.That’saswideasthatspectrumgoes.

Thenthere’stheideaofeatingtoomanygreenleafyvegetables,whichIgetintoin“TheSunfoodDiet,”whichbasicallyturnsyouintoavegetable.Itmakesyoulazy.That’swhywehavethatterm.“He’sjustacouchpotato”or,“He’sjustavegetable.”Ifyoueattoomanyvegetablesandtoomuchvegetablejuiceyoubecometooalkalineandyoucan’tgetanythingdone.Youbecomelazy.That’sthearchetypeofthedrugaddictorthestoner.Ifsomebodyistooalkalinethey’rekindoftoospacedoutandcan’treallydoanything.

Youneedabalanceofacidandalkalinity.Thatissomethingthatwe’regettingtothepointisgoingtocomeintothediscourse.We’veallheardaboutgettingalkaline.Well,youcangettooalkaline.It’sanacid/alka-linebalancethatyouneed.It’snotgetalkaline.It’sthatwe’resoacidicweneedalkalinity,whichbythewayisherbs,superherbsandvegetables.That’swhat’salkaline.Everythingelseisneutraloracidic.Thisideathatalmondsarealkalineormungbeansarealkalineisjustnonsense.That’ssomethingyoufindoutprettyquicklybeingonraws.Yourealizeifyoueatalmondbutteryouneedvegetableswiththatinordertogetthatacid/alkalinebalance.Basicallytheideaofacid/alkalineistheideathatnutsandseedsandtheirmineralcontentarecounter-poisedtostems,vegetableleavesandroots.They’reoppositesofeachother.Soifyouhaveoneyouhavetohavetheother.That’swhyyouputceleryintothealmondbutter.It’sanacid/alkalinebalance.

Nowifyou’reameat-eateryouhavetoeatthebone.Bytheway,Iwouldn’trecommendeatinganybonesthesedaysbecausetheanimalsaresotoxicallthattoxinendsupinthebones.That’sthewayyouwouldhavedoneitoriginally.Ifyouweregoingtoeatmeatyouhadtoeatthebonebecausethat’stheacid/alkalinebalance.Thebonemarrowisanalkalinefat,likeanolive,andthereforeisaveryvaluablefood.That’swhytheGreekssoreveredolives,becausethey’reanalkalinefatsource,whichisveryrare.

Kevin: We’rewrappinguphere.Whatwouldyouliketoleaveeveryoneaboutthisconversationaboutdietandwhat’srightandwhat’swrong?

David: Thereisnorightandwrong.Therearechoicesthatyoumakethatmighthaveakarmathatcomesbackatyou.Therearechoicesthatdonotevolveyou,thatactuallyde-evolveyouandtakeyoubacksteps.Ifyou’recleverinyourlifeyouobservethatandyoudon’tmakethoseagain. This idea of right andwrongistooprimitive.We’vegottotakeittoamoreadvancedlevel.

IntermsoftheinformationthatI’mputtingoutthere,asIseeitthere’sreallythreeclassesoffoods.There’s

noherbs.Theywerealwayssick.Theywerealwayssick.Ilookedatthatandsaid,noway.Firstofall,Idon’twanttobeinvolvedinkilling.Buttwo,itwaswayoutofbalance.Itgotwaytoofarintoeatingtoorichfood.Everyanimalfoodisasuperfood.It’stheanimal’slife-forceenergyandthemineraldensityislike30percent.Anormalplantislikethreepercentmineraldensity.Animalmaterialis30percentmineraldensity,likeasuperfoodis.Seaweedislikethat.Whenyougettothattypeofmineraldensityyou’vegottobeverysparingifyou’rereallyconcernedabouteatingless.You’vegottobeverysparingbecausewithinonecuttingofsirloinfatoffabison’sback,youhavejustgottenahugeamountofenergyandcaloriesandnutrientsandthatkindofthing.That’showwegotintoanimalfood,Ibelieve,inthebeginning.Itjustmakesiteasiertosurvive.It’smucheasiertosurviveonanimalfoodbecauseit’sconcentratedforyou.Youcangoshootadeerandthey’venibbleddownallthelocalbrancheshere,allthegrass,allthetripe.Yougokillthedeerandthenyou’re’abletogetwhattheyhad.However,there’sanissuethere.You’vegottogetinvolvedinkilling.Thatverylikelyisgoingtochangeyourreality.Atleastthat’smyfeelingaboutkarma.

Kevin: Whatdoyouthinkisthebestapproach?Isthereabestsystemtodiet?Ifsomeone,nomatterwhatthey’reeating-vegan,vegetarian,rawfood,fruit,whatever…Whatisthesystemtokindofidentifywhatworksforyou?

David: Ithinkabetterquestionis,whatareparametersthatyouwanttobeawareof?Onedefinitelyiseatingless.We’vegottogettoeatingless.Thereforeyouhavetoeatfoodthat’sricherbutnotnecessarilyexposingustomutagensandcarcinogensandbadestrogens.That’swherethesuperfoodscomein.That’swhysuperfoodshavealwaysfitintoeveryherbalsystem.Theysolvethatproblem.

Thenthere’sthewholeissueofwhateverwedoeathasgottobemineralrich.That’sabigoneaswell.Animalproductsgenerallyaremoremineralrich,ifthey’rewildgame.Conventionalanimalproducts,free-rangeandwhateverisnodifferentthananythingelse,inmyopinion.Sothere’sadensityofmineralsthatneedstobetakenintoaccount,aswell,sothateverythingwehavehasanicequalityofmineraldensity.Sowe’regettingthemagnesiumthatweneed.We’regettingthemanganesethatweneed.We’regettingthesulfurthatweneed,thephosphorousthatweneed.

Thenthere’sawholeotherprinciplewhichiswe’vegottostartbreakingdownforourselveswhatweac-tuallyrunon.LikeIrunonfat.IfIeatfatI’mperfectlyfine.I’minbalance.IcanhavetonsofproteinbutIdon’tfeellikeI’minbalance.IcanhavetonsofcarbohydratesbutIdon’tfeellikeI’minbalance.Wehavetofindoutwhichoneofthosethreeweprimarilyrunon.

Peoplewhoprimarilyrunoncarbohydrates,whichislessthan10percentofthepopulationoftheworld,lookatmeat-eatersandarecompletelyaghast.Youseesomeoftheradicalvegansinthatcategory.Theycan’tbelievethatsomebodyactuallyneedsanothercaloriesourcethancarbohydrates,sweet fruitsorwhateverthey’reusingfortheircarbohydratesource.That’sabigmistake,ofcourse.

We’realldifferentintheratioofproteintofattocarbohydratethatweneed.Thatcanbeanimalsourceorplantsource.Itreallydoesn’tmatter.It’stheratiothatmatters.I’vehadtofigureoutformyselfwhatworksforme.Eachpersonhastofigureoutforthemselveswhatworksforthem.Generallyit’sgoingtobesomecombinationofhighfat,moderateprotein,lowcarbohydrateormoderatefat,highprotein,lowcarbohydrate.That’smorecommoninthepopulationthanhighcarbohydrate,lowfat,lowprotein.

Kevin: Inyourbook,“TheSunfoodDiet,”youbreakdownsomeofthesymptomsthatpeoplefeeliftheyeattoomuchfat,sugar,orgreens.Canyouaddressthat?Ithinkthat’saphenomenallittlechartthatyouhavethere.





whereyouleftoffsoyouwon’thavetoworry.Areyouguysready?

AsyoujustheardDavidWolfetalkaboutlongevityandthekarmaofdiet,inthissecondinstallmentoftheeveningI’mgoingtotalktoahealthadvocatewhowasonthesamedietpathasDavidandthentookacompleteU-turn.

DanielVitalisisaleadinghealth,nutritionandpersonaldevelopmentstrategist,aswellasanature-basedphilosopher.Seekingtoanswerthehealthchallengesofmodernhumanity,Danieldeeplyimmersedhim-selfinthenaturalmedicine,nutritionalpracticesandlifestylepursuitsthatsupportedourancestors’manygenerationsofrobusthealth,powerfulimmunityandintentionallongevity.Foryearshewasarawfoodveganbutfounditwasnotthedietthatsuitedhimbest.InthissegmentofTheGreatHealthDebatehe’sgoingtoexplainwhathappenedtohimandwhyhechanged.

Daniel,welcome.

Daniel: Thankyou,Kevin.

Kevin: I’mexcitedtohaveyouonthisprogrambecauseyouhaveaveryinterestingstory.Whydon’twestartfirstwithexplainingwhoyouare,forthosepeoplewhomanynotknow.Thenwe’llgetintosomeoftheques-tionswehavetoday.

Daniel: Asyousaid,mynameisDanielVitalis.I’mapublicspeaker,healthmotivatorandhealthstrategist.I’vespentthelast fewyearstravelingaroundtheUnitedStates,Canada,EuropeandevenSouthAmericagivingpublictalks,leadingworkshops,teachingpeopleabouthealthandnutrition.MywebsiteisDanielVi-talis.com.Ispentalongtimestudyinghealthandlikeyou,Kevin,weedingmywaythroughalltheinforma-tionoutthere,alotofcontradictoryinformation,andreallylookingforasaneapproach.

MostofmyworkisreallyinfluencedbywhatIcanseeinthepast,humanhistory.Iliketolookathumanbeingsasananimal.SoIlookatuszoologicallyandwhatourdietiszoologically,anthropologically.Whatdoweeatasaspecies?Whatdidweeat?What’sgonewronginthelastfewgenerationsthat’sledustosuchliterallygeneticdecay?What’sledusintoallofthesegeneticdiseases,allofthesedegenerativediseasesandwhatshouldwebeeatingnowaswefacethisnewmillennium?

Kevin: Youwereavegetarianforalongtime.Doyouwanttotellusalittlebitaboutwhatyourexperiencewas,whyyouwentvegetarian?

Daniel: Myfirstexperiencewithvegetarianism,IrememberIwasabout11yearsold.IrememberbeingatthemallatoneofthoselittleChinesefastfoodtake-outsinthefoodcourt.Iremembertheyhadavegetarianop-tiononthemenu.RightfromthemomentthatIsawthewordvegetarian…ThefirsttimeIhadhadachoicelikethat,whetherIwasgoingtochooseavegetarianormeatoption.Rightfromthebeginningsomethingaboutthewordstruckmesodeeply.Irememberorderingthat.Ididn’tbecomevegetarianatthattime.Iwasquiteyoung.ButsomethingaboutitfeltsorevolutionarytomeandseemedtohavesuchadepthofsignificanceandadepthofmeaningthatfromthatdayonIwasreallyheavilyinfluencedbytheidea.

Laterinmylife,aboutthetimeIwas15or16yearsold,Istartedtoreallyexploreandexperimentwithvegetarianism,notjustvegetarianismbutalsorawfoodism.Thoseideasreallyimpactedme.TheworksofMahatmaGandhireallyinfluencedme,asithastheentirevegetarianmovementwhichtodayowesit’sbeginningstotheworkofGandhi.Allofthatideaofnon-violence,ofahinsa,ofeatingadietthatdidn’tlead

yourdiet,whichisallyourfood,whateveritisyou’reinto-rawfoods,meat,dairy.Whateveritisgoesintoonecategory,whichisyourdiet.Buttherearetwoothercategories.Thetwoothercategoriesaresuper-foodsandsuperherbs.Mostofthisdietdisaster,catastrophe,arguments,whateveryouwanttocallit,thebattleofthediets,isallaboutdiet.It’sallaboutbeingameat-eaterornot,vegetarianorvegan,areyourawornotrawandhowmuchraw,thatkindofstuff.It’sverymuchapiecemeallookatthewholepicture.

Whateveryourdietis,Iwouldrecommendthatinsteadoftakingvitaminpillsthatinsteadyoutakesuper-foodstomakesurethatyou’reguaranteedofgettingyournutrientsbecausesuperfoodsareactuallyreal.Avitaminpillisnotreal.It’sfake.That’syourvitaminpillbasically,yoursuperfoods.Itcouldberoyaljelly,marinephytoplankton,gojiberry,cacao,maca,aloevera,noni,whateveryou’reinto.

Thenthere’sthesuperherbdepartment.Thesuperherbdepartmentiswheretheactionreallyisinthelong-term,becauseinthelong-termyoudon’twanttobetakinginawholebunchofcalories.Youwanttojustbetakinginpuremedicineallthetimethattastesgood.That’swherewegetintotheherbalteas,powderedherbs,powderedmedicinalmushrooms,herbaltinctures,thatworld.Whatawonderfulworldthatis.Thatguaranteesthatyougetmedicine.Thefoodtodaydoesn’thaveanymedicineinit,it’snotwildfood.Wildfoodhasmedicineinit.Domesticatedfooddoesn’t.There’snomedicineinthat.Plus,ifthere’smedicineinit it’sverysmallamount.Wewantthemostpowerfulmedicinethereis.Chagaisthemostpowerfulanti-cancerherbintheworld.Wow,I’monthatone.Let’strythatout.

Sowe’vegottobecarefulwedon’tgetcaughtuptoomuchindiet.Iguessthat’swhatIwanttoleaveeveryonewith.Wewanttobeabletolookatalltheothergrandandwonderfulthingsthatareavailabletousinthesuperfoodandsuperherbcategory.

Kevin: Thishasbeengreat.David,wherecanpeoplefindmoreinformationaboutyouandwhatyoudo?

David: Youcanfindoutmoreinformationatwww.davidwolfe.com.Also,ouronlinemagazine,whichIthinkisoneoftheleadingpeakperformancewebsitesintheworld,whichisthebestdayever.com.It’sasubscriptionwebsite thatgivesyouanextraordinarydownloadofnutrition information,particular informationaboutherbsandpeakperformance,unlikeanythingthat’severbeenputtogether.We’vebeenworkingonthatwebsiteforeightyearssoit’sreallyquiterefined.

Kevin: Great.Thankyousomuchforyourtime.

David: Thankyou,Kevin.Havethebestdayever.

Kevin: Ihopeyouenjoyedthatinterview.TolistentoDanielVitalis,comingupnext,allyouhavetodoisstayonthelinehereandwe’llintroducehiminjustaminuteorso.

Rightnowisagoodtimetotakeaminutetogoontheblogandpostyouropinions,likeyou’vebeendoing.Benice.

Thiscallwillbeavailableforonly24hourssoifyouwanttopassitalong,doitnow.ClickontheFacebook“like”button.PostitonTwitteroryoucantellafriendwiththeemailboxontheright.

Wearegoingtogetstartedwiththenextcallinjustafewseconds.Ifyouhavetotakeaquickbreak,bathroombreak,getagreensmoothie,getagreenjuice,havesomesuperfoods,haveabanana,what-everyouguysdooutthere,goaheadanddothatandpausetheplayer.Whenyoupressplaywe’llberight





Igrewuponfrozenvegetables,factory-farmedmeatandahugehostof junkfood,emptyfoods,Kraftmacaroniandcheeseandramennoodle.That’swhatIwasraisedon.IhadneverexperiencedrealfoodandI’dneverexperiencedrealnutrition.SoIwasliterallystarvingfromthedayIwasborn.Ithinkthat’smostofus.

NotonlywasIstarving,that’sonepiece,that’sthenutritionpiece,theotherthingthatwasgoingonwasIwasincrediblytoxicfromthelifestylethatIwasliving,notbecauseInecessarilydabbledinalotoftoxicsubstancesbutbecause justbynatureof living inourmodernworldwe’rebeingexposed tosomanytoxins.There’sthepieceofbeingmalnourishedthatwasgoingonbutthenthere’sthepieceofalsobeingtoxified.

WhenIfirstwentontoarawvegandietmyinitialexperiencewasdoingjuicinganddoingagrape-fastthatlastedtwoweeks.DuringthattimeIlostsomuchweight,whichwasgreatforme,Kevin,becauseIwasthechubbykidmywholelifegrowingup.Iimmediatelylostallkindsofbodyfat.IalsoexperiencedaclarityofmindlikeIhadneverexperienced.IexperiencedjoylikeIhadneverfelt.Whenthetoxicmaterialstartedleavingmybody,theindustrialpollution,theonlywayIcandescribeitislikespiritualawakenings.IstartedtounderstandthattherewasalotmoretomethanIhadknownabout.Iwasamoredynamic,powerfulpersonthanIknewaboutandIcouldachievealotmore.Iwasfeelingsogood.Iwasfeelingontopoftheworld.Iwentthroughthatsortofrecreatingmyself,re-fashioningmyselfoutofthepost-industrialnutritionapocalypseIhadcomefrom.Imetalotofnewpeopleandlearnedalotofrevolutionarythingsabouthealth,thingsthatreallyaffectedandimpactedme.

Afteracoupleyearswhathappenedwasmyimmunesystemstartedcollapsing,slowly,butstartedcol-lapsing.Iwashavingproblemswithmyfingernails.Iwashavingalotoffungalproblems.Iwashungryallthetime.Icouldn’tgetenoughcalories.Iwasbingeeating.SometimesI’dsitdowntobagsofcashewsor50orangesoraboxofbananas,justtotrytogetenoughnutrition.Icouldn’tholdontobodyweightnomat-terwhatIdid.Ididn’twanttoexercisethatmuchanymorebecauseIsimplyjustdidn’thavetherecoveryability.

Itriedthesuperfoods.Itriedthegreendiets.Itriedthefruitariandiets.Itriedthejuicediets.ItriedeverykindofdifferentversionofthesethingsthatIcould.Itwasalwaysliketherewassomethingmissing.ThatmademekindofaslavetothesupplementandsuperfoodindustrybecauseIkeptthinkingtheanswertoallmyproblemswouldbeinsomenewsupplementand/oritwouldbefromfindingoutwhatwastoxicthatIcouldsortofgetoutofmybody.Ibecamereallyobsessedwithcleansing.Iwasdoingalotofdifferentcleansingtechniquesfromsweatingtocolonicstofastingandallthesedifferentthings,thinkingthattheproblemsIwasexperiencing,whichInowunderstandweresimplymalnourishment,IwasthinkingitwassomethingtoxicandifIcouldgetitoutofmybodythenI’dbehealthyagain.Ichasedthatquestforalotofyears.Itwasn’tuntilliterallyjustafewyearsagothatIstartedtostumbleontosomenewinformation.

Kevin: Whatwastheinformation?Howdidyougoaboutthetransition?That’soneofthehardestthingsforsome-onewho’sbeenaveganforalongtime,toactuallystarttransitioningoutofthat.

Daniel: Let’sbackupalittlebitandsaythis.WhenIwasarawvegan,whenIwasavegan,whenIwasavegetar-ian,Iwasundertheimpression--thismightsoundfunnytosomepeopleandotherpeoplewillunderstandexactlywhatImean.Iwasundertheimpressionthattherewassomekindoffallfromgracethathadhap-penedinhumanhistory.Iwasundertheimpressionthathumanbeingswerebornaspeciesasvegetar-ians,vegans,rawfoodistsandthatsomethinghadgonewrong.Wehadsortofeatenfromtheforbiddentree,had the forbidden fruit, theknowledgeofgoodandevil,whichwasmaybemeatorcooked food.

toextraviolenceandaggressionintheworldandwhatappearedtomeatthetimetobemoreecologicallysustainable.AllthoseideaswerereallybeautifultomeandIwantedtotakepartinthem.

SoIwasavegetarianformaybe13,14,15years.Iwasaveganabouttenofthoseyears,andarawveganformostofthose.IexploredthatverydeeplyandItriedmanydifferentapproachesovertheyears.

TodayI’mdefinitelyanomnivore.Iwanttosay,firstKevin,thankyouforhavingmeonthecall.Ithinkthisisareallyimportantconversation.MorethananythingIwanttosaythateverybodyonthiscall,eventhoughweallcomefromdifferentperspectives,I thinkwhenwestepbackalittlebitwe’reallworkingtogetherforthesamegoal.SoIknowthatinthisdebatethere’sgoingtobeconversationsofmeatversusvegetarianism.UltimatelyIthinkthatwe’realltryingtodothesamething.

Todaytheideaofbeinganomnivoreisthesanest,simplestandmostecologicallysoundapproach.I’mnotacarnivore.I’manomnivore.WhatIsharetodayisnotcomingfromaplaceofcampaigningforpeopletoeatmeat.InsteadIwanttosaythatI’mkindofinthemiddle,asanomnivore,believingthatthere’ssomuchvalueineatingplantsandeatinganimals,justaswehavefor200,000yearsasaspecies.

Kevin: Whenyouweredoingvegetarian,I’msuretherewerepointswhenyouwerefeelingverygoodaboutyourdiet,correct?

Daniel: Absolutely,tothepointofreligiouszeal.ItfeelsfunnytosaythattodayandyetIthinkifyoujustperusealittlebitoftheInternetcommunities,peoplewhoaredoingthis,you’llseethishasgotareligiousfervor,azealtoit.Iwasazealot,likemanypeoplewhobegindownthatpath.Alotofpeoplegettingintovegetari-anismmightnotbethatzealousbutoncepeoplestartgettingintoveganismandgettingintorawfoodismthereisthisfervoraboutit.It’sacult-likekindofidea.Theytreatitlikeareligion.

Oneoftheproblems,whenyouleavethat,asIhavenow,it’ssortoflikeifyouwereaJehovah’sWitness,aChristianoraMormonandyouleavethatreligion.Peoplereallylashoutatyou.SoI’vefeltalotofthebacklashtodayasIkindofspeakoutaboutomnivory.WhenIfirststarteddoingitIwasoneofthosezeal-ouspeople.IreallythoughtthatIhadfoundtheonetrueperfectthingthatcouldsaveeveryone.IthoughtIcouldsaveeveryone’shealth.IthoughtIcouldsavetheenvironment.IthoughtIcouldpreventsomuchsufferingintheworld.SoIwassostronglyalignedwithit.

InthebeginningIfeltgreat.NowIunderstandwhyIfeltsogood.Thatfirstyearwasreallyamazingtome.Lookingback,Iwasonahigh.Thatdidn’tlastthatlong.LikeIsaid,Ididrawveganismfortenyears.Thefirstyearortwowereamazing.ThelastseveralyearsofitIwasreallysufferingasmyhealthwasbreakingdown.ButIcouldn’tunderstandwhy.Iwasalwaystryingtogetbacktothatinitialhigh.WhatIwouldcontinuouslydoiscutmorethingsoutofmydietthinkingifIdidthatIwouldgetthatfeelingback.Ofcourse,Ineverdid.

TodayIhaveafeelinggreaterthanthatfeelingandmoresustainablethanthatfeeling.Butittookmealongtimetounderstandwhatwasgoingon.

Kevin: Tellusalittlebitaboutthattransition,fromfeelinggoodtofeelingbad.Whatweresomeofthethingsyouexperienced?Whatweresomeofthephysicalthingsandthensomeoftheemotionalthingsthatyouwereexperiencingwhilethiswashappening?

Daniel: WheredidIbegin?Ibeganinthe1980sand1990sgrowingupintheUnitedStatesandNewEngland.





Alotofthepeoplearguingdifferentnutritionalideas,whenpeoplearearguingaboutdifferentdietstheytendtobearguingaboutdifferentarrangementsofthesamedomesticatedfoods.Veryfewpeoplehavebeenboldenoughtoactuallylookatwildfoodsandwhatpeoplewereeatingjustafewthousandyearsago.Asaspecieshomosapiensare200,000yearsold.We’veonlybeendoingagriculturewide-scaleforacoupleofthousandyears,whichmeansthateveryhumanbeingforalmostourentirehistory,atewildfood.

Whenyoustarttolookatactualwildfoods,whenyoustarttotestthisout,yougo,“Waitasecond,mostofthefoodsthatI’mtoldIshouldeatasavegetarianaren’tactuallyviablefoods.”

Kevin: That’saprettyvalidpoint.Whenyoutalkaboutthefactthatwewereeatingwildfoods,oreveneatinganimalproducts,theothersidewillgointoanargumentthatmightsayrightnowwehavesomuchtechnol-ogyandsomuchavailabilityofcertainfoodsisitpossibletodothevegandietortherawfooddietwithouthavingtoeatmeatwiththeuseofothersupplementsandthingslikethatorothersuperfoodsandthingsthatareavailabletousnow.

Daniel: CouldIgetyoutoplayDevil’sadvocatewithme?Letmeaskthisquestion.Ifyoucouldputyourselfinthemindstateofthepersonwhowouldsaythat.IfIsaidtoyou,whydothat?Whatwouldyouthinktheresponsewouldbe?

Kevin: Itwouldprobablybeforthewelfareofanimals.

Daniel: OK.Solet’sexaminethatforamoment.Ireallybelieveinthewelfareofanimals.I’mananimalandIbe-lieveinmyownwelfare.Ibelieveinthewelfareofallthespeciesonearth.Whenwelookoutattheearthweseethatthere’sthesedifferentkingdomsoflife.Weseethatthere’splants.They’reakingdom.There’sfunguses,whichencompasstheyeastsalso.They’reawholekingdom.Wehavedifferenttypesofbacte-rialkingdomsoflifeandwehaveanimalkingdomsoflife.

Theveganwillsaythatit’sspeciesttoeatotheranimals.Iwouldsaythatthatviewiskingdomist.Inotherwords,itkindofsaysthatthere’ssomethingaboutanimalsthatmakestheirspeciesmorevaluablethanotherlifeforms.Soit’sOKtokillandeatplantsandit’sOKtokillandeatfungusesandOKtokillandeatbacteriabutit’snotOKtokillandeatanimals.Everybodyontheearthisentitledtothatview.Ifyoubelievethat,that’sOK.Youhavetheoptiontobelievethat.

However,doyouseehowthat’smuchmoreofareligiousethic?Ithasnothingtodowithhealthornutri-tion.It’ssimplyanethicalchoice.WhatIreallywanttogetoutofthistalktoday,andI’mhopingthatthisemergesthroughallthepartsofthisdebate,Ihopeitemergesthatvegetarianismandveganismneverreallyhadanythingtodowithhealth.Ithastodowithanethic.That’sOKbutthat’sareligiouschoice,notahealth choice.

Canyouseeanyotherreasonssomebodymightstatethatweshouldusetechnologytochangeournatu-raldiet?

Kevin: That’sthemajorone.Arethereanyonesthatyouhearwhileyou’reoutspeaking?

Daniel: That’sthemajoronethatIsee.Ithinkthatthere’sbeenalotofconfusiontryingtotieanimalfat,particularlyfatandcholesterol,toheartdisease,cardiovasculardisease.Allofthatsupposeddatareallyunravelswhenyouputsomescrutinyonit.Whatweseeisthattherereallyisnoevidencelinkingcholesterolor

Somethingchangedandthenwestartedtoexperiencesicknessanddiseaseandpain.Ithoughtthatifwecouldgettoournaturaldietwecouldbehealthyagain.Itneveroccurredtome,Kevin,thisissofunnyanddoesn’tseemtooccurtoverymanypeople,honestly,toactuallystudywhatnative,indigenouspeopleateortolookatwhatthefossilrecordandanthropologicalrecordstellusaboutwhatpeopleate.Ididn’ttrustanyofthatinformation,forsomereason.SoIbelievedthatwewerenaturallyvegetariansorvegans.

FiveyearsagosomebodyputabookinmyhandbyWestonPrice,“NutritionandPhysicalDegeneration.”Istartedtostudywhatpeopleusedtoeat.Wedohaverecordsofwhatalltheindigenouspeoplewereeating.Wehavelotsofrecordsofwhatpeoplewereeatingpriortoanyoftherecordedhistorybecausewecandigupthesitesandactuallyfindthingslikethetoolsthattheyused,literallytofossilizedfeces.Wecanexamineitandseewhatpeoplewereeating.

WhenIstartedtoseethatIrealizedthatIhadbasedmywholeworldviewonmisinformation.Wedidn’tstartoffvegetarians,notevenclose.WhenIstartedtorealizethatthatstartedtounravelmywholepara-digm.ThatwasareallypainfulperiodinmylifebecauseIhadsomuchinvestedinthatbelief.Ihadsharedsomuchwithotherpeople.Ihadcarvedoutawholeegoandpersonalitybasedontheseideas.Lettingthatgowasaspowerfulformeassomebodyleavingthechurchorsomebodyleavingacult-likereligionthatthey’vebeeninforalongtime.IhadtoreallyfindoutwhoIwas.Ihadbasedsomuchofmyperson-alityonisms-vegetarianism,rawfoodism,veganism-thatIhadtoreallylookcloseandseewhatmademeuniqueandspecialasapersonoutsideofwhatIdid.IthoughtwhatIdidandhowIatedefinedwhoIwas.Thatwasareallypainfulwaytobebecausethere’salotofpressuretoupkeepit.SolettingthatgopiecebypiecemeantIhadtopartwithalotoffriends.Ihadtopartwithalotofinformation.IhadtopartwithalotofwhatIthoughtmadememe.

Kevin: Whatwassomeofthedetailsoftheanthropologicalresearchthatyoudid?

Daniel: TodayIdoalotofdifferentanthropologicalresearch.WhatIstartedwithwasthatbookIjustmentioned,“NutritionandPhysicalDegeneration.”TodayIreallylikestudyingthescientificliteraturethatwehaveonexistinghunter/gatherertribes.Ilikestudyingthescientificliteratureonpeople’sdietstodaythatarestillforagingtheirfood.Inotherwords,they’restilleatingwildfood.Thisisarevolutionaryideathatveryfewpeoplearethinkingabouttoday.Ifwewanttoknowwhatanaturaldietforpeopleis,andI’mgoingtoas-sumethatmostofthepeoplethataredoingthisdebatebelievethatwhateverpointthey’retalkingontheybelieveit’sthemostnaturalthingforus.Itwouldbekindofastretchtosaythatonedietwasournaturaldietbuttheoppositeofthatwouldbemorehealthyforus.Thatseemsstrange. I think the peoplearguingvegetarianismmustthinkthat’smorenaturalandthepeoplearguingformeat-eatingmustthinkthat’sthemorenaturaldietforus.

Whateverournaturaldiet,ithastohavestartedwithwildfoodsbecausewe’veonlyhaddomesticatedfoodsforthelastfewthousandyears.Weknowthatagricultureisabout10,000yearsoldbutitwasn’twidespreaduntilfairlyrecently.Inotherwords,wehadnodomesticplantsandnodomesticanimals.Thatmeansweateentirelywildfoodupuntilveryrecently.Ilikestudyingwhatthosewildfoods.

WhatIthinkisevenmorevaluablethantheresearchthatIdoisthatI’manavidforager.NotjustanoveltyforagerbutI’masubsistenceforager.Igatheraconsiderableamountofmyfoodeveryyearnowfromwildharvesting.PeoplecangotomywebsiteandseevideoswhereIshowdifferentplantsthatcanbeharvestedandactuallyusedathome.IactuallydothissoIhaveabitofaninsightintowhatcanbeeateninourecosystembecauseIactuallydoit.




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rawveganism.Thosearethreediscreetcategories.Weknowthatpeoplecanlivesomewhathealthylivesasvegetarians.Wedon’thaveanyevidenceofpeoplebeingabletoliveouthealthylivesandreproducehealthfullyasvegansorrawfoodists.That’saverynew,untestedidea.

Kevin: Youmentionedgeneticdecay.Isthatwhatyou’retalkingaboutoristhisgeneticdecayasawholepopula-tion?

Daniel: Weneedtotakealookatwhatwecomefrom.Weseethat200,000yearsagowiththeemergenceofourspeciesoutofthefossilrecord,weseethatwe’vechangedconsiderably.Scientistscallthisthegraciliza-tionofourskeleton.Whatweseeisthatwe’veactuallygottenshorter.We’velostourrobust-icity.Ourbonesarenotasstrongastheyusedtobe.They’renotasdenseastheyusedtobe.Ourskullisthinnerthanitusedtobe.Thisistrue,anybodycanresearchthis.Ourbrainsarenowsmallerthantheywere200,000yearsago.Weareshrinking.

Imagineifyouwentintonatureandyousawasquirrelwithcrookedteeth.Imagineyousawasquirrelwhereonetoothcameoutontopoftheothertooth.Youdon’tseethat.Whatweseeisthatanimalsthateattheirnaturaldietsinthewild,inotherwords,theyeatwildfoods,seemtoreproducealmostperfectly.Wedon’tseethegeneticdegradationthatweseeinourownspecies.

Todayit’ssocommontohaveteeththatdon’tfitinourmouthsandarecrooked.Wedon’tseethisinthefossilrecord.Thisdoesn’texistuntilveryrecentlyinhumanhistory.Whatweseeisthattodaypeople’steethdon’tfitintheirmouths.Theireyesdon’tworkproperly.Theirearsdon’tworkproperly.Theydevelopskeletaldiseasesveryearlyinlife.Halfofpeoplediefromcancer.Halfofthepeoplediefromheartdis-ease.

Ifwe didn’t actually use corrective surgeries like braces,wewould see how serious this degradationis.Mostpeople’sskullscan’tevenaccommodateteethanymore.That’sshocking.We’recoveringitupthroughbracesandothertypesofsurgeriesandwe’rehidingit.Theobviousfactisthatourskeletonsarebreakingdown.

Ifwelookbacktoseveralgenerationsago,beforethisstarted,doweseethatpeoplewerevegetariansthen?No.Weseethatpeopleateactuallyconsiderablymoremeatthanthey’reeatingtoday.Theobviousthingis,it’snotthemeatthat’sdoingthis.

I thinkmostpeoplego tovegetarianism looking forasolution tochronic,degenerativediseases, look-ingforasolutiontocancer,lookingforasolutiontoheartdisease,tryingtofigureoutwhatwhenwrong.Unfortunately,it’snotthemeatthatpeopleate.Weshouldactuallytakealookatwhatourspeciesateingeneralandwhatabouttheanimalsthatcamebeforeusthatwererelatedtous.Whatdidtheyeat?

Kevin: Doesitmakeanysensetolookbackatapesorthingslikethat?Doesthatargumentfly,eventhoughwe’rehumanandthey’reape?

Daniel: Reallygoodquestion.Youhadposedaquestiontomebefore.Isitpossiblethattheconsumptionofanimalprod-uctsaffectedourevolution?Whatwasbeingeatenbythespeciesbeforeus?Keepinmindthathomosapiensandchimpanzees,chimpanzeeshaveabout98percentofthesamegenetics,howeverwedidn’tevolveoutofchimpanzees.Bothchimpanzeesandhumansevolvedoutofacommonancestoralongtimeago.

Ourgenus iscalledhomoandwearehomosapiens,which isawayof referring toourdomesticated

animalfattoheartdisease,cardiovasculardiseaseortocancer.Withoutthoseunderpinningsitbecomesveryobviousthatvegetarianismandveganismandrawfoodismarereallyreligious-based.

Ithinkit’sanimportantpointtosaythis.Wehavestudiedthehunter/gatherersaroundtheworld.Manyofthehunter/gathererswhoexisted,particularlythosewereyouandIlive,upinNewEngland,wedon’thaveahugerecordoftheirfood.Here’swhy.Bythetimepeoplestartedrecordingwhatthesepeopleweredoingtheywerealmostgone.TheEuropeanscameoverhereandbroughtsomuchdiseasethatmostofthepeoplediedofffromthingslikeSmallPoxbeforetheycouldreallybestudied.Bythetimetheycouldbestudiedtherewereveryfewleft.

However,wedohavereportsofwhattheywereeating,tosomedegree.Whatweknowisthattherehasneverbeenanyhunter/gatherertribestudiedanywhereintheworldthat’sbeenrawfoodists.Wehavenoevidenceanywhereintheworldofanyculturethathavebeenrawfoodists.Ithinkthat’simportanttopointout.

TherearepeoplewhowillbedoingthiscallwhoIsuspectwillpointtothepeopletheycalltheEssenes,butagain,ifweputalittlescrutinyonthesepeopleweseethatthey’remythological.TherewasapeoplecalledtheEssenes,buttheideathattheywererawfoodistsisprettymythological.

Thesecondthingis,there’snovegansthatexistanywhereintheworldexceptthoseinourculturewhohavechosenthatethic.Wedon’tseeanytraditionalcultureanywhereintheworld.Wedon’tseeanytribeanywhereintheworldwhoarevegans.Thereforerawfoodismandveganismareuntested.Theyhavenotshowntheirmeritthroughgenerations.There’snowherewecanlooktostudythemexcepttheoneswhoaredoingitnowasanexperimentonthemselvesandintheirculture.Doesthatmakesense,Kevin?

Kevin: Uh-hmm.

Daniel: Theonlyvegetariansthatwecanreallylookto,there’sreallyonlyoneplacewherewecanfindavegetar-iansocietyandthat’sinIndia.WhenwegotoIndia,dowefindthemostrobustpeopleintheworldorthehealthiestorthelongest-lived?Wedon’t.Whatwefindisnotpeoplesayingtheydovegetariandietsforthenutrition,whatwefindispeoplewhodoitforareligion.That’sOKbutlet’snotconnectthatwithhealthunnecessarily,becausetheydon’tconnectittotheirhealth.They’renotvegansbecausetheyeatatre-mendousamountofdairyproducts.Theyevenmadethecowsacredaspartofthepractice.Thereasonis,theyknowhowimportantthecowistoallowingthemtoeatavegetariandietbecausetheyusethedairyasameatreplacement.

Soagain,whenwelookaroundtheworldwedon’tseeanyhistoryanywhereofvegetarianism,veganismorrawfoodismuntilwegettoveryadvancedcivilizationslikeourownorlikethatinIndiaandweseemeatreplacementscomingfromanimals.Wedon’tseeveganismanywhere.

BearinmindthatinIndiathesewerethepeoplewhogiveustheideaoftheethicofnoteatingmeat.Theycreatedtheidea.Theycallitkarmaandtheysaythatit’sbadkarmatoeatanimals.Sowhatdotheydo?Dotheybecomevegans?Theydon’t.Whynot?Becausetheywereinvestedinreproducinggenerationaftergenerationofhealthychildren.Theyknowtheywouldneedsomereplacementformeatsowhattheyuseisbutter,ghee,yogurt,milk,cream,thingslikethattoreplacemeat. So throughout this con-versationIthinkweneedtomakedistinctions.

Youhadsentmeaquestionbefore.Itwas,doIthinkvegetarianismisahealthywaytoeat?Ithinkthatweneedtobreakthatdown.Vegetarianismisverydifferentthanveganismandthat’sverydifferentthan





necessarilyforhealth?

Daniel: ImaginecomingtoNorthAmericaafewhundredyearsago.TheentirecontinentwaspopulatedbytheNativeAmericanpeople,bythefirstnation’speople.Clearlythesepeoplewerehuntingforsubsistence.Itwasfortheirhealth.Whenwegotoanyindigenouscultureweseethatthemostimportantfoodsreallydocomefromanimals.Butweseethattheyweren’tdoingthisbecausetheywereoutoffoodortherewassomefamine.Thiswashowtheyhadlivedforasfarbackastheycouldrecall.Soitwouldreallybeunfairtosaythattheyweredoingitbecausetheyhadnootheroption.Thisiswhatpeopleate-meat,fishandsomeplantfood.

KeepinmindthatifweweretogotoWholeFoodstoday,ifweweretogotothehealthfoodstore,andwelookedatthevegetablesthatwereavailablethere,theplantfoodsthatthevegans,vegetariansandrawfoodistsaresuggestingwemakeexclusivelyourdiet,keepinmindthatnoneofthesefoodsexistedjustafewthousandyearsago.Noneofthem.Noneofthosefoodsexisted.Thefoodsthatwethinkoftoday-broccoli,kale,collard,cabbage,lettuce-theseareallverynewlydeveloped,domesticatedversionsofwildplants.Thewildformofthoseplantsareofteneitherinedibleormustbeheavilyprocessedtomakethemediblebecausetheycontainsomanytoxiccompoundsthatwesimplycan’tsubsistoffthem.

Unfortunatelyforthevegetarianargument,anybodywholooksattheobviousideaofwildfoodsasouroriginaldietseesthatit’sverydifficulttobaseadietoffofwildplantfood.Whatweseeisthateveninthecultureswhohavethelowestanimalfoodconsumption,thehunter/gatherers,liketheKungpeopleoftheSahara,theyeatlessanimalfoodthanmostpeoplebuttheystilleat33percentoftheircaloriesfromanimals.

KeepinmindthatwhenwegouptothenorthernlatitudesweseepeopleliketheInuitwhoareeatingalmostexclusivelyanimalfood.There’sahugerangeinhowmuchanimalfoodorhowmuchwe’lleat.Weseemtothriveonallofthembecauseallofthesepeoplewerefreeofmoderndiseases.Weseethatthere’sahugerangeinhowmuchanimalfoodisconsumedbutweneverseeanyofthesepeoplevegetar-ians,vegansorrawfoodists.Itsimplydoesn’texist.It’sjustanewideaandit’snotreallytested.

Kevin: Whatwouldyousayaboutthephysiologyofhumansintermsofteeth?Peoplesaythatwedon’thavelargeincisors,smallintestinesarelongerfordigestionofplantfoods.Haveyouthoughtaboutthat?

Daniel: Let’sbeclearaboutwhosays this.You’re talkingaboutsomethingcalledcomparativeanatomy.Whatwe’re lookingat isthedescriptiongiventousbyveganandvegetarianso-calledauthorities.Sothey’lllookatouranatomyandthey’lltrytoplaceusasfrugavores.They’lltrytoplaceasusherbivores.Keepinmindthatmuchlargerincisors…ifwe’regoingtouseincisorsizeasamarkforthis,let’shavealookatchimpanzees.Theyhavemuchlargerincisorsthanusandweknowthattheyeatanimalfoods.Infact,theirfavoriteanimaltohuntareotherprimatescalledBushBabies,whichislikeasmallmonkey.Theyhavemuchlargerincisorsthanus.Andevenlargeraregorillas.Gorillasarelargelyvegetarian.Theyhavebiggerincisorsthanchimpanzees.

Incisor size is not really a fairway to look at this. Plus,wemust look at the fact that homo sapiensdevelopedcookingbeforetheywereactuallyhomosapiens.Itreallycomestousfromhomoerectus.Soourabilitytoreduceandprocessfoodwithfirereallydidallowustoadaptinadifferentwaythanotherspecies.However,there’saconsensusagreementamongstalloftheresearchersthatweareomnivores.We’vealwaysbeenomnivores.Regardlessofwhatourteethlooklike,whichareverywelldesignedforeatingmeatandplantfood,andthat’swhypeopleeatplantfoodandmeat.Iftheyweren’twewouldhave

version.Thefirsthomespunwasjusthomespun.We’resortofamoredomesticated,gracilizedversion.Let’sgobackmorethanjustacouplehundredthousandyears.Let’sgoback3.4millionyearsandlookatAustralopithecus.You’veprobablyheardofLucy.ShewasaveryfamousskeletonofAustralopithecus,whichisbelievedtobeoneofourancestorsbeforeourgenuswasborn,beforewewereevenhomo.ThenwewerecalledAustralopithecus.

TherewasareallygoodarticlepublishedintheScienceJournal,January1999.It’scalled“IsotopicEvi-dencefortheDietofanEarlyHominidAustralopithecusAfricanus.”ItwasthoughtthatAustralopithecuswasavegetarian.Theywereverychimp-like.Thisisourdistantancestor.Itwasassumedthattheywerevegetarianandwecameoutofthemasvegetarians.However,here’swhatitsaysinthearticle.I’mgoingtoquoteafewplaces.“Theymayalsosuggestthathominidsconsumedhigh-qualityanimalfoodsbeforethedevelopmentofstonetoolsintheoriginofthegenushomo.”Inotherwords,Australopithesineswerelikelyeatinganimalfood.Thisislongbeforeus.

Thejournal“Nature”publishedjustafewmonthsago,August2010,“EvidenceforStoneToolAssistedConsumptionofAnimalTissueBefore3.39MillionYearsAgo.”Theysaythis.Whatthisarticleisabout,bytheway,arebonesthatwerefoundintheliarwherewefindAustralopithecus,bonesthatwerefoundthathadclearlybeencutwithstone tools to removemeat.Here’swhat theysay. “Thesebonesshowunambiguousstonetoolcutmarksforfleshremovalandpercussionmarksformarrowaccess.”Inotherwords,Australopithecineourmoremonkey-likeancestor,hadfoundawaytoremovefleshandgetintobonemarrow.Thisispartofwhatcausedthemtoevolve.

Afterthatspeciescomeshomohabilus,ourancestor.Homoerectus,afterhomohabilus.Keepinmind,Kevin,homoerectuscreatedfire,orhadfiguredoutuseandmasterfire.So theywerecooking.Afterhomoerectuscomeshomo[indecipherable]andthenareallyinterestinganimalwholivedupinEuropecalledhomoneanderthalus.That’s,ofcourse,theNeanderthals.Thisisfromthejournal“PNAS”inJuneof2000.Thearticlewascalled,“NeanderthalDietandNeanderthalPredation:EvidencefromStableIso-topes.”Here’saquote.“TheisotopeevidenceoverwhelminglypointstotheNeanderthalsasbehavingastop-levelcarnivores,obtainingalmostalloftheirdietaryproteinfromanimalsources.”Neanderthalisourancestor.He’salmostexclusivelyeatinganimals.Weknowthisbecauseofthecarbonisotopetesting.Weknowthathewaseatingalmostentirelyanimalfood.

Thenemergeshomosapien,200,000yearsago,andfromtheearliestsiteswefindthetoolsforkillinganimals.Wefindthetoolsforbutcheringanimals.Wefindfossilizedfecalremainsthatshowuswhatwasbeingeaten.There’sclearfossilevidenceintherecord.Andalltheanthropologicalevidencethatwehavefromthingsfromcavepaintingsupuntil thereportsofrecenthunter/gatherers,weseethataslongaswe’vebeenaspecieswe’vebeeneatinganimalfood.

There’s basically a consensus view amongst researchers and scientists today that what caused thesuddenbraingrowth,rapidbraingrowthinourspeciesandinourgenuswasthatwewereconsuminghigh-qualityanimalfood.

Keepinmindalsothatchimpanzees,contrarytopopularbelief,arenotvegetarians.Theydohunt.Theydohuntinpacks.Theywillhuntwithspears.Theydodiguptermitemoundsandotherinsects.Andtheydoeatbees,bee larvaeandhoney.Soweknow thatchimpanzees,ourclosest relative,arealsonotvegetarians.They’reomnivoreslikeus.

Kevin: Whatwouldyousay to theargument that theywereeating these foods forsurvivalpurposesandnot





Theobviousthingispeopleonvegetariandietsaren’teatingfromtheanimalkingdom.Becauseofthatcertainthingsarenotshowingupintheirdiet.Theonethatoccurstomethemostrightnowaswetalkistheselong-chainomegafatsthatsimplyarenotavailableinplantfoods.That’sthingslikeEPAandDHA.DHAisalong-chain,delicate,polyunsaturatedfat.It’sthefatthat’smostabundantinfishbodies.That’srealobviouswhenyouknowhowthefatworksbecauseifyoupicturewhathappenswhenyouputcoconutoilinarefrigeratoritbecomessolidrealquickly.Thesameistruewithanimalfatslikelard.Ifyouputlardorifyouputcallowfromaruminantintotherefrigeratoritturnssolid.Ifyouputoliveoilintotherefrigera-torthat’samonounsaturatedfat,itturnstoagel.Ifyoutakefishoilandyouputthatintherefrigerator,itstaysliquid.Ofcoursefish,wholiveincoldoceans,can’thavebodyfatthatwouldturnhard,ortheywoulddie.Theyneedaslippery,liquidyfatthatcangoverycoldandnotbreakdown.However,theproblemwiththatfatisit’sveryheat-sensitiveandit’sjustnotinplants.Thereareomega-3fatsinplants.Weknowthatplantslikechiaseedorflaxseedareveryrichinomega-3.Butthey’renotrichinthemetaboliteofome-ga-3,DHA.DHAmakesup70percentofourbrainfat.Inotherwords,yourbrainisbasicallycomposedofDHAandDHAisimportantforeverynerveinyourbody.

Oneoftheproblemswithlong-termveganismandvegetarianism,especiallyrawveganism--andI’mgoingtosaythisassomebodywhohastraveledaroundextensivelyinthecircuitsofrawfoodandvegannutri-tion.Iknowalotofthebignames.Iknowalotofpeople.I’vemetalotofpeople.I’vebeenallovertheplace.ThebiggestproblemthatIseeisinthenervoussystem.People’snervoussystemsstarttobreakdownandpeoplebecomealmostneurotic,almostparanoid,aftermany,manyyearsonthesediets.IthinkitcomesfromthedeficiencyofDHA.Weseethissamethingcanhappentowomenaftertheygivebirth.TheygivesomuchoftheirDHAuptothechildfortheformationofthenervoussystemofthechildthattheydeveloptypesofneurosescalledPostPartum.That’sasimilarthing.Imaginepostpartumgoingonfortenyears.That’swhathappenstopeoplewhodon’tgetenoughDHAintheirdiet.

Theotherobviousonearethefat-solublevitamins.ThesearevitaminslikevitaminA,whichisnotfoundinplants.Manypeoplesaythere’sbetacaroteneinplantsbutbetacaroteneisapro-formofthevitamin,butit’snotthevitaminitself.Itmustbeconverted.There’sjustnotenoughvitaminA.

There’snovitaminD.There’snovitaminK.Thefat-solublevitamins.There’sjustnotenoughoftheminplants.We’vealwaysgottenthemfromanimalfoods.

Keepinmindthateverysinglehomosapienthat’severylivedonthisplanetuntilveryrecentlyateanimalfood.EveninplaceslikeIndiawheretheyarelargelyvegetarian,theyconsumeatremendousamountofanimalfoodstill.

ThemostimportantthingIwanttopointouthereisthatwhenwestudythedietsofourancestorsweseethatthey’reasmanyastentimeshigherinnutrients.Thedietsthatweeattodayaresodeficient.They’redeficienttoourRDAstandards,whichweknowarelow.Wedon’trealizethatwhatourancestorsdid,ifyoustudytheirdiets,youseethateverysingledayoftheirliveswasaboutconcentratingasmuchnutritionintoasmallaplaceasyoucould.Thisisthepowerofthingslikebonebroths.Thisisthepowerofeatingorganmeats.Youcangetsomuchnutritioninsuchasmallspace.Wetodayhavesomuchfoodsotoavoidnutritionwe’vecreatedtheinverserelationship.Whatweseeinourancestorsistheirdietswerelowincalories,superhighinnutrition.Todaywhetheryou’reeatingthestandardAmericandietorthestandardvegandietorthestandardrawfooddiet,whatyouendupwithisadietmuchhigherincaloriesbutmuchlowerinnutrients.

Peoplehavecometobelieveinthelastfewyearsherethatplantsareextremelyhighinnutritionandplant

adifficult timedoing that. Ifourdigestivesystemcouldn’thandlemeat,howhavewemade it the last200,000years?There’saconsensusviewamongsttheresearchersthathumanbeingsareomnivores.We’reclassesasomnivores.

Bytheway,chimpanzeesarecapableofthingswe’renotcapableofnutritionally.Forinstance,chimpanzeescaneatwildfoodsthatwouldbetoxicforus,andyettheyalsoeatanimalfood.Weusefiretoprocessthesetoxic,orwe’veuseddomesticationtoprocessthemsowe’reabletoeatthem.Butwe,justlikethem,eatanimalfoods.Infact,chimpanzeeswouldeatmoremeatlikelyiftheycouldaccessitmoreeasilybuttheydon’thavethehuntingtechnologieswehavetoday.Ourbodiesareclearlydesignedforomnivoryandwe’reclearlydesignedtobehunters.We’requitegoodatit.That’swhat’sallowedustoreallythrivehereontheplanetthelast200,000years.Weseethattheoriginalhumanswereactuallyhuntingwhatwecallmegafauna,verylargeanimals,thingslikelargeelephant-likeanimalsorverylargeelkanddeer-likeanimals.We’vebeenhuntingthosesincethebeginning.Sotheargumentthatourdigestivesystemcan’thandlethatorourteethcan’thandlethat,issoglaringlyinoppositiontotheevidence.Thenhowdowedoit?Andwhydowedoit?Whyhavewealwaysdoneit?Whyistherenorecordofaplant-baseddietanywhereinhistory?

Kevin: Iwanttomovealittlebitintoessentialnutrientsthatyoufeeleveryoneneedsandthattheymaynotgetonthevegetariandiet.Maybesomethingsthatyoufoundyouweren’tgettingfromyourvegetariandiet.Sopeoplecankindofgetahead’supastowhattheymayneed.

Daniel: BeforewedothatIwanttojustsaythatit’ssuchanoverly-simplifiedandreductionistkindofmentalitythatweusewhenwelookatnutrition.Again,Iwanttoemphasizethateverybodylisteningtothiscallisreallylookingforthesamething.Weallwanttobehealthyandwe’veallbeenbornintothisindustrialfood,factory-farmsociety.Humanbeingsarelivinghereinaverysimilarsituationtothewaycowsarelivinginfactoryfarms.Wemightnotgetanumberedtagonourearlobebutwesurehaveoneinourwallet.We’refarmedhereinaverysimilarway.We’vebeentaughttousereductionismtolookatthis.

Weoftengo,“Whatnutrition’s?”Thenumberonemissingnutrient,forsure,forallpeople,isjustrealfood.We’vegottendupedintothisideathatyoucanseparateoutnutrients.We’vegotthisideathatwecanmodulatecarbsandproteinsandfatsandwecanseparatethemapartandtakeisolatednutrientsandwecanliveoffsyntheticfood.

I’mhesitanttosayhere’sannutrientthatvegetariansarelackingbecauseitalwaysturnsoutthere’smoretoitthanthat.IfIsaidvegetariansarelackinginmethylcobalamine,whichisvitaminB12,it’sgoingtoturnoutlater,Kevin,thatit’sactuallyahostofsupportivesubstancesandothersubstancesthatplaysupport-iverolesaroundtheB12aswellandthere’smoretoitthanthat.That’simportant.

Weneedtolookatfoodfirst.BeforeIsaywhatnutrientsaremissing,let’stalkaboutwhatkingdomsoflifearemissing.Mostpeopleeatingaplant-baseddietaremissingafewdifferentkingdomsoflifeintheirdiet.Here’swhatImean.Plantsareonekingdom.There’sakingdomoffoodcalledmicroorganisms.Wegetthatfromfermentedfood.Alotofpeoplewhethervegetarianoromnivoreorcarnivore,arelackinginthefermentedfoodsthatwe’vebeeneatingforthousandsofyears.Sothey’renotgettingenoughbacteria.

Alotofpeoplearenoteatingenoughfunguses.We’veeatenfungusesforalongtime.They’reveryim-portantforourimmunesystem.Alotofpeople,whethermeat-eatersorplant-eaters,aren’tgettingenoughfunguses.





tobevegan?No.It’ssimplyimpossible.Icantellyouwhyinaminute.Isitpossibleforapersontoliveasavegan,bringforthahealthychild,raisethatchildasavegan,bringforthanotherhealthychildandonandonforgenerations?Idon’tthinkso.Wehavenoevidenceofthat.Ithinkpeopleshouldrecognizeevenifyoucanconvertenoughstufffromplantsources,it’sanexperimentandthereforeit’sunethicalandimmoraltogoforthintotheworldasateachertellingpeoplethatthisisthebest,mosthealthythingwhenit’scompletelybasedonalackofevidence.It’stotallyreligiousinnature.ThereforeIthinkanybodywhoisasupposedteacheroreducatoronthissubjectshouldgooutandsay,“Ihavethisideaofakindofdietwecantryout.Wedon’tactuallyknowwhatmighthappen,becausethere’snorealevidence,resourceorhumanhistoryofit.ButIthinkitmightbegood.Let’stryit.Doyouwanttotakeupthisexperimentwithmeasaconsciousadult?”What’snotfairistellingpeoplethatit’shealthywhenwedon’tknowitis.What’sespeciallywrongtomeisraisingchildrenthiswaywhenwereallydon’tknowtheeffects.

Iwanttosaythisaswell.Vegansneedtounderstandthatwhatthey’redoingisonlyanapproximationbutit’snotreallypossible.Inotherwords,therereallyaren’tanyveganpeoplebecausetheveganpeoplewhoexistareeatingcompletelyagricultural-basedfoods.Doesthatmakesense?Therearenowildfoodveg-ans.Thereforeallthevegansareeatingfoodsthatcomefromsupermarketsorfarms.Iftheveganwantstoeatfoodsgrownwithfossilfuelfertilizers,syntheticnitrogenforexample,iftheyweregoingtoeatthosekindoffoodstheymightbeabletopulloffsomethingclosetoveganism.However,theirfoodswouldstillhavetobepollinatedbybees.Beeswillactuallybebroughtfrombeefactoryfarmstopollinatefood.Soavegangoingtothehealthfoodstoreorthefarmer’smarketandbuyingapieceofbroccolihasinsomewaysupportedthefactoryfarmingofbees.Theyneedtounderstandthat.

Second,ifthey’reeatingcommercialfoodtheycangetawayfromfertilizerbutthatmeansusingfossilfuel.Ifapersonwantstoeatorganicfoodtheyneedtounderstandorganicfoodisfertilizedbydomesticanimalpoop.Wheredothosedomesticanimalsgo?Theygeteatenbyotherpeople.Sothere’sreallynowayaroundit.Evenifsomebodythinksofthemselvesasavegan,they’rebuyingfoodthat’sbeenfertilizedbyanimalmanureandpollinatedbyfactoryfarmbees.

There’sjustnowayforsomebodytoactuallybeavegan.It’sanapproximation.That’swhyIsayifweweretoactuallycreateacultureofvegans,whatwouldbefertilizingtheirfarms?Whatwouldbepollinatingtheirplants?

Kevin: Iwanttobrieflytalkaboutwhatavegancandoorthinkabout.Whatabouttheopposite,forameat-eater?Whatissomeonewhoiseatinganimalproducts,whatdidyoulearninyourexperienceasaveganthatyouthinkshouldbeincorporatedintheirdietsaswell?

Daniel: Ilovethisquestion.IlovethisquestionbecausepartofthereasonIwasavegetarianforalongtimewasbecauseofhowtoxicandmorallyappallingtheanimalindustryhasbecome.Ithinkweallgetitnowwiththefactoryfarms,upuntilthingsthataregoingonnowlikecloningformeat.Ithinkthisstuffisreallyhor-rendous.

However, letmemake thispoint realquick.Justbecause thatexists, thatdoesn’tmean that’showallanimalfoodisproduced.Justbecausefactoryfarmsexistdoesn’tmeanthatweshouldoptforveganisminthesamewaythatjustbecausegenetically-modifiedcorndoesn’tmeanweshouldbecomeonlymeat-eatersandavoidplants.

Factoryfarmingofanimals,tome,isnoworsethanfactoryfarmingofplants,thiskindofmono-croppingthatwesee,thegeneticengineeringofplants.Tomethatisaswrongastheseanimalfarms.Ithinkweneedto

dietsmustbehighinnutrition.Ifsomebodyisdoingrawfoods,they’renotdigestingverymuchofthefoodbecauseit’slargelyindigestible.It’sascientificfactthatmorenutritionisavailablewithpropercooking.I’mnottalkingaboutdeepfryingandI’mnottalkingaboutmicrowaving,butpropercookingmethodsthatwealwaysemployedasaspecies.Weseethatthatliberatesmorenutrition.Rawplantdietsarenutritionallydeficient,unfortunately.Therearesomestudiesnowpointingtothat.Butevenvegetariandietstoday,ifwe’reusinglacto-ovovegetariandietsasanexample,ifwe’reeatingthemilkoreggsthatcomefromani-malsthataren’tfedtheirproperdiet,likegrowinggrass,wearegoingtohavedeficientmilkandeggs.Somostpeopletoday,it’snotjustthatvegetariansaren’tgettingenoughandmeat-eatersaregettingmore,it’severybodyisstarvingtodeath.It’scausingthegeneticbreakdownofourspecies.That’swhysomanywomencan’thavebabiesthroughtheirvaginaanymorebutmusthavec-sections.Theirhipbonesarenotwideenoughtoaccommodate.That’swhysomanypeopletodayhavetohavefourteethpulledoutoftheirmouthwhenthey’readults.That’swhysomanypeopletodayneedbracesorcorrectiveeyeglasses.Ourspeciesisbreakingdown.That’swhywehaverecordhighinfertilityasaspecies.We’reactuallyeat-ingourselvesintoextinction,becausewe’renotgettingenoughnutrition.We’restarvingtodeath.

Theideathanwe’regoingtosomehowevolveoutofourmeatconsumptiontobecomeavegetariansoci-etyisbeautiful.However,it’snotreallybornoutbytheexperience.Whenwelookaroundwhatweseeisthateverybodyissuffering.

Kevin: Intermsofconversion,someoneonavegandietorrawfoodsidewouldsaythatyoucangetDHAfromanalgaesource.Youcangetyourmedium-chainfattyacidswhichwillconverttolong-chainfattyacidsinthebody.Isthatavalidargument?Oristhatsomethingthatmaybedoesn’tworkaswellaswethinkitdoes?

Daniel: Again,theonlyreasontodothatwouldbeifsomebodywasobsessedwithethicthatsaidtheywoulddoanythingpossible.For instance, theywouldsetupmegaalgae-growingsystemsin thedesertsotheycouldproduceenoughalgaetoextractenoughDHAtolivewithit.Ifyouwanttoprovethatitcanbedone,yes,withenoughtechnologyit’spossibletogetDHA.

Iwanttosaythattherearethingsinanimalfoodsthatwedon’tevenknowaboutyet,samewithplants.We’rediscoveringmoreandmorenutritionallthetimethatwedidn’tknowwasimportant.

Sayitwasanisolatedfatthatweweremissing.Yes,youcouldgrowenoughalgaetoextractthat.Couldyoudothatfromwildfood?No.Youjustsimplycan’tdoitfromwildfood.Wherewouldyougetthesequantitiesofalgaeandhowwouldyouextracttheseoils,theseveryheat-sensitiveoils?It’ssounrealisticthatthatwouldbenaturalforusthattheonlyreasontodothatwouldbebecauseyoufeelthatit’smoreethicalandthatyoufeel it’s justtoemploythosetechnologiestovalidatethatethic.Thatseemsreallystrangetomesinceweknowthatourtechnologyisactuallywhat’sdestroyingtheplanet.Themorewepush these technologies themoreweactuallydestroyhabitat thatshouldhouseanimals.Therefore itstartstobecomealittlebitstrangebecausewe’redestroyinganimalhabitattosaveanimals.Thisseemssobizarre,Kevin.

Ithinkapersoncouldfindaway,maybeifyouateenoughbetacaroteneyoucouldconvertenoughvita-minAtostayhealthy.Maybeifyoupressedenoughofhexane-extractedenoughalgaeyoucouldDHA.Itseemslikeanawfullotofwork.Myquestionisthis,isthatreallyreasonablypossibleforourspeciesoristhatsomethingthatanindividualwantstodotoprovesomethingtothemselves?

Thatbringsmetoanotherpoint.Isitpossibletoliveasavegan?Ofcourse.Isitpossibleforacivilization





atit.That’swhywe’reseeingsuchstrictpopulationcontrolscomingintoplayinplaceslikeChina.Moreandmorewe’reseeingthatit’sactuallyconsideredunethicaltohavelotsofkids,evenhereintheUnitedStates.It’sstartingtobecomeataboo.Weknowwe’reoverpopulated.

No,noteveryonecaneatwildfood.Butno,noteverybodycancontinuelivinghereeitherway.Theprob-lemwithgrowingaplant-baseddietforpeopleisthatplant-baseddiets…Letmeputitintheseterms.Ithinkifweweretogetagroupofustogetherandweweretolookatpicturesofanidealiclittlefarm,ifIweretoshowyouaNewEnglandfarmwiththeredbarnandthecowsinthefieldandthechickensandalltheplantsgrowinginthefarm,mostofuswouldthinkthatlookedlikeabeautiful,naturalsetting.Ifweshowedthatpicturetoagroupofhunter/gathererstheywouldseedeforestation.Inordertogrowdomesticfood,unfortunatelywehavetodeforestthings.Wehavetodeforestawholelotmoreifwewanttofeedpeopleonjustplantsbecauseoftheamountoflandrequiredtogrowthoseplants.Smallscaleomnivo-rousfarming,inotherwordswhenwegrowgrassandanimalsandplantstogetherinapolyculture,that’sthemostsustainableformofagriculturethatwecando.TheJohnRobbin’sideathatwe’regoingtogrowenoughplantfoodtofeedthewholepopulationandnooneisgoingtoeatanimalfoods,notonlydoesthatbypasstheobviousthingthatweneedfertilizerforthesefoodsbutitcausesomuchdeforestationandsomuchtopsoillossit’sactuallynotpossible.It’sapipedream.Wealsoknowthecurrentagriculturesystemisjustnotgoingtowork.

Sotoansweryourquestion,no,wecan’talleatwildfoodbutwecan’tcontinuewhatwe’redoingeither.Weneednewsolutions.Ithinkwe’reatatimeinhistorywhereeachpersonhastodeterminewhatthey’restrategyisforsurvivingandthrivingrightnow.That’swhyInamedmycompanySurThrival.Wehavetosurvivehereandinthemeantimewehavetofigureouthowtothrive.We’vebecomesoselfish,Kevin,thateachofusisthinkingaboutourownhealth.WhatshouldIeatformyhealth?Howaboutforthenextfewgenerations?Thatideaofmakingchoicesforthenextsevengenerations.Sowhat’syourstrategynotjustforyourhealthandyourownbodybutforyourchildandyourgrandchildandyourgreatgrandchild?Canyousetnutritionalsystemsinplacethatallowyourgeneticlineagetobecarriedoutforthenextfewgenerations?Eventuallytherewillbeasmallerpopulationhere.Therejusthastobe,unlesswebecomeastar-travelingintergalacticspecies,whichIthinkisunrealistic.Ifwe’regoingtoliveonthisplanet,noteveryoneisgoingtogettocarryouttheirgeneticline.Thoseofuswhowouldliketobepartofthefutureonthisplanetneedtopickstrategies.Noteveryoneisgoingtogettodoit.That’ssadandunfortunatebutit’ssortoftherealitywe’redealingwith.Ithinkweallneedtobegrown-upswiththatandlookatitandfigureoutourstrategy.IknowmystrategyistoworkwithasmuchwildfoodasIcanbecauseI’manatu-ralhumanandIliketogathermyfoodfrommyecosystem.Idon’tliketosupportdestructiveagriculture.WhenIcan’tdothatImakethebestchoicesIcan.Iintendtobehereinthefuture.Noteveryoneisgoingto.Noteveryoneisevergoingtobeabletohavechildreninthefuture.That’sunfortunatebutit’ssortofwhatwe’redealingwith.

Kevin: DanielVitalis,wherecanpeoplefindoutmoreinformationaboutyouandwhatyoudo?

Daniel: PleasecheckoutmyblogatDanielVitalis.com.From thereyoucanfindmyotherwebsites likeFind-ASpring.com,whichisawayyoucanfindwildwaterfromecosystemsanywhereyoulive.Youcanfindmycompany,SurThrival.Pleasecheckoutmywebsite.I’dlovetohearwhatyouthink.Leavecommentsforme.I’mreallyhappytohavebeenpartofthiscallandtosharemypiecewithalloftheseamazingspeakersandexpertsthatyou’vebroughton.

Kevin: Ihopeyouenjoyed that interview.Pleasebesure tohangaround theblogandpost yourcomments,opinionsonthecallaswellaswhateverelseyouwanttosayaboutTheGreatHealthDebate.We’llbe

lookatwherewe’regoingtogetfoodandwherewe’regoingtoeatoutsideoftheindustrialfoodcomplex.

Ireallybelieveineatinglocalmeats.Myfavoritemeatsarewildmeats.Inotherwords,thetimesofyearwhereIgettoeatwildmeat,forinstanceacoupleofweeksagoIwasabletohaveawildturkey,harvestedoffthelandherewhereIlive.Thatanimalspentitsentirelifeinahealthy,naturalecosystemeatingwildfoods.Therearepropertiesinthatturkeythatarenotavailableinaturkeythatcomesfromafarm.Ire-allylikeeatingvenison,deermeatfromwilddeerorwildelk.IloveeatingwildmeatsbecauseIlovebe-ingpartofwildandreallandscapes.Ithinkthatisthemostnutritionallyrevolutionarythingwecando.Idothesamethingwithplants.

WhenIdon’thavethatoptionmyfavoriteanimalfoodsarefromhealthy,animalgenetics.Inotherwords,justlikewithplantstherearemanyheirloomvarietiesofdomesticatedanimals.Wedon’thavetojusteatacow.Therearemanytypesofcowsthatwecouldeat.Therearemanytypesofgoatsorsheepthatwecouldeat,manytypesofchickens.IliketochoosefromthehealthiestthatIcanfind.ThisyearwhatI’vechosentodoisbuyoneentireanimal.SoIboughtawholecow.Ichosethegeneticofthatcow.Iknowthatcowonlyategrassit’sentirelife.Itwasneverinjectedwithanything.Itwasneverfedgrains.Itateitsnaturaldietit’sentirelifeandthenItooktheentireanimalandI’llconsumethatentireanimal,everything.Thatincludesthetongue.Thatincludestheliver.Thatincludesthekidneys.Theentireanimal.That’showwealwaysdiditandthat’showwestayedbalanced.

Kevin,it’snothealthytojusteatsteaksandburgermeatallthetime.Thosethingsarenotbadforus,thewaythatwe’vebeentoldtheyare,howeveradietofonlythoseissortoflikedoingadietofonlycornfromMonSanto.Thatwouldbeabadchoice.Weneedbalance.Whatweseeourancestorsdidwasateaconsiderableamountofbonebroth.Theyatethejointsofanimalsinsoups.Theyatetheorganmeatsofanimals.Thesethingsarecritical.

Sojustlikealotofushavelearnedtomakediscerningchoiceswithplantfoods,inotherwords,mostpeoplewhoareintotheirhealthdon’tbuycommercialproduce.Theybuyorganicproduceandiftheycantheyliketogetfarmfreshproduce.WithmyvegetablesI’vetakenitastepfurtherandIeatalotofwildvegetables.WithmyanimalfoodsI’vemadesimilarlydiscerningchoicessothatIdon’tjusteatsupermar-ketmeat.IgotofarmswhereIgetmyanimalproductsfromanimalswhoarefednaturaldiets.WhenIcanIeatwildmeats.Theseareveryrevolutionarychoices.Theymeanthatthecompositionofthefoodweeatisthesameasitusedtobe.Ifacowhasbeenraised,forinstance,ongrain,it’sbodyfatcomposition,particularlyit’somegafats,isdifferentthanit’ssupposedtobe.Soitdoesn’tasfullynourishus.

ThemostsaneandlogicaldietfromwhereI’mstanding,frommyperspective,isanomnivorousdietthatascloselyaswecanresemblestheancientdietsofhunter/gathererpeopleswhoexistedupuntilonthiscontinentjustacouplehundredyearsago.ItstillexistsinSouthAmerica.Ifwecanapproximatethenatu-raldiet,eataslocallyaswecan,wemaybeabletorestoreourselvesalittlebit.Ourgeneticsarebreakingdownsoquicklythatit’spossiblewe’llactuallysterilizeourselvesintoextinction.

Kevin: Onelastquestionforyou.Withthesizeofourpopulationrightnow,isitpossibleforeveryonetoeatwild?

Daniel: It’snotpossiblecurrentlyforeveryonetoeatwildbuthere’sthething.It’snotpossibleforeveryonetokeeplivinghere.Ithinkweneedtobecomerealisticaboutthat.Whetherwefeedthemplants,animals,whethertheyeatwildordomestic,weareinsomethingcalledpopulationovershootwhichmeansweknowthattheearthcannotsustainthispopulationforthatmuchlonger.It’sadifficultthingtolookatandmostofusdon’twanttohavetoadmitthat.Butthegovernmentsoftheworldareaware.They’recertainlystartingtolook




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Tomorrownightwehavetwoofmymostfavoriteexpertsaround.Oneofthemisactuallymyownpersonaldoctor.Sostaytuned.Wehopeyouhaveagreateveningandwe’lltalktoyoutomorrow.




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