trial testimony in william pickard lsd lab trial

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" . IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICt '"COURT,; 'I

'\ i

FOR THE DISTRICT OF KANSAS TOPEKA, KANSAS

I: 21-1

::'~'":r"r"'" '. v ~.' ,

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, :.. , . .-.- .... ~

------ Plaintiff,) )

vs. ) Case No. ) 00-40104-01/02

WILLIAM L. PICKARD and }

CLYDE APPERSON! }

------------- Defendants. }

TRANSCRIPT OF VOLUME I OF THE TESTIMONY OF GORDON TODD SKINNER HAD DURING TRIAL

BEFORE HONORABLE RICHARD D. ROGERS

and a jury of 12 on

January 28, 2003

APPEARANCES:

For the Plaintiff: Mr. Gregory G. Hough Asst. U.S. Attorney 290 Federal Building 444 Quincy Street Topeka, Kansas 66683

For the Defendant: Mr. William Rork (Pickard) Rork Law Office

1321 SW Topeka Blvd. Topeka, Kansas 66612

For the Defendant: Mr. Mark Bennett (Apperson) Bennett, Hendrix & Moylan

5605 SW Barrington Court S Topeka, Kansas 66614

Court Reporter: Kelli Stewart! CSR, RPR Nora Lyon & Associates 1515 South Topeka Avenue Topeka, Kansas 66612

NORA LYON & ASSOCIATES, INC. 1515 S.W. Topeka Blvd., Topeka, KS 66612

Phone: (785) 232-2545 FAX: (785) 232-2720

?Jo~

Case 5:00-cr-40104-RDR Document 269 Filed 02/11/03 of 131

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I N D E X

Certificate------------------- 131

WIT N E S

ON BEHALF OF THE GOVERNMENT:

GORDON TODD SKINNER

Direct Examination by Mr. Hough

PAGE

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1 THEREUPON, the preceding motion and

2 Rule 17B hearing were not ordered transcribed)

3 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Hough,

4 you may call your next witness.

MR. HOUGH: Thank you, Your Honor.

6 The prosecution calls Gordon Todd Skinner.

7

GORDON TODD SKINNER,

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called as a witness on behalf of the

Government, was sworn, and testified as

11 follows:

12 DIRECT-EXAMINATION

13 BY MR. HOUGH:

~ Q. Sir would you please state your name.14 l

A. Gordon Todd Skinner.

16 Q. What is the correct spelling of your last name,

17 sir?

18 A. S-K-I-N-N-E-R.

19 Q. Sir, you appear today to testify pursuant to an

agreement with the Governmentj is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Would you please tell us your understanding of

23 that agreement.

24 A. I entered into an agreement with the Department

of Justice main justice, D.C., negotiated byl

'-' NORA LYON & ASSOCIATES, INC.

1515 S.W. Topeka Blvd., Topeka, KS 66612 Phone: (785) 232-2545 FAX: (785) 232-2720


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my attorney, Thomas D. Haney, who negotiated it

with John Roth, for immunity of producing

evidence of an LSD lab and such, and that I

would be immunized from those such items.

Q. Okay. And that immunity would mean no

prosecution as a result-

MR. RORK: Excuse me, Your Honor. I

would object to his characterization what-- he

can ask this witness what it was.

MR. BENNETT: Same objection, Your

Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. (BY MR. HOUGH) That would mean that you would

not be prosecuted as a result of giving

truthful and complete information and testimony

regarding the entire matter.

A. That's correct.

Q. And it would be an umbrella that would cover

the conspiracy, the possession, distribution,

manufacture of the LSD. Correct?

MR. RORK: Again, Your Honor, I would

ask that he not ask leading and suggestive

questions. He can ask what his understanding

was.

MR. BENNETT: Same objection.

~


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THE COURT: I will overrule your

objection. It's perfectly proper.

Q. (BY MR. HOUGH) You can answer.

A. Yes.

Q. It would also include a failure to file income

tax returns and money laundering, those types

of things?

A. Yes.

Q. Sir, did the Government seek out your

cooperation in this matter?

A. No.

Q. And you indicated that you and your attorney

approached the Department of Justice. Where

specifically?

A. Not to be difficult, which time?

Q. The ultimate agreement.

A. In Washington, D.C.

Q. Okay. You can move that microphone around so

you don't have to keep leaning into it, if

you-- to get comfortable. And when was it that

the agreement with Washington was executed, if

you recall?

A. October 19th of the year 2000.

Q. Subsequently, then, the Court recognized that

immunity agreement. Correct?


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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I will show you Government's Exhibit 800. Do

3 you recognize that?

4 MR. RORK: Excuse me, Your Honor. I

think the prior question was subsequently the

6 Court recognized that agreement, and I don't

7 know if that was what the Government meant to

ask him.8

MR. HOUGH: That's correct.

MR. RORK: Well, the Government is

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11 the one that gave the agreement. Judge, I

12 would object to the form of that question. I

13 don't think the Court can adopt any agreement,

14 that's for the jury to decide.

THE COURT: The Court has looked at

16 the agreement.

MR. HOUGH: Yes.17

THE COURT: You may go ahead.

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Q. (BY MR. HOUGH) Do you recognize that?

A. Yes.

21 Q. And is that the order recognizing the

22 agreement?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Subsequently, then, you were interviewed by the

DEA. Correct?


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A. Yes.

Q. And in that regard they made you sign al

confidential source agreement, did they not?

A. Yes.

Q. Let me show you Government's Exhibit No. 801.

Do you recognize that?

A. Yes.

Q. And is that the confidential source agreement

that you entered into with the DEA?

A. Yes.

MR. RORK: Judge I I would just note

that he's handed me what's been marked as

Exhibit No. 800 and I haven't seen it. It was

just filed evidently today at 11:59, I would

hand to Mr. Bennett.

MR. HOUGH: It was the purpose of

handing it to them, Judge.

Q. (BY MR. HOUGH) Now, sir l what was your motive,

your incentive for offering your cooperation to

the Department of Justice?

A. I was under the impression, I'm still not

clear, that a murder had been committed within

the organization. For three years this murder

had been discussed and I had been arguing

against it. I was asked to provide a weapon


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for $50,000, I refused. I was asked to be

involved in a kidnapping, I refused. I was

asked to be involved in drugging the person to

knock them out so they could be kidnapped and

then transported to a country like Guatemala.

Numerous information was given to me and I kept

saying, "We do not murder." And this

specifically was being carried out with William

Leonard Pickard, Junior. And I fought with him

extensively on this issue. And sometime during

May-

Q. Of what year?

A. Of the year 2000. He either indicated, and

I'll explain why I'm not for sure, that the

person was killed or was going to be killed.

Q. And who was this person?

A. This person was a long term associate of what

we refer to as the ET man.

Q. And-

A. The ET man is the ergotamine tartrate or any

precursor that is unique that goes to the

manufacturing of LSD.

Q. And what exactly was it about the ET man that

caused Mr. Pickard to want him dead?

A. No, no, it was the associate of the ET man, not


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the ET man, to be dead. His associate had

cooperated either in Oregon or Washington or

both states and was-- numerous people, quote,

were going away to prison for life. But the

main concern of Pickard's was that if the ET

man's associate was able to get him indicted,

that this would be a significant problem for

the source of ET. And this would ultimately be

a source problem for the organization. And

there is tremendous amounts of evidence that

this murder story had been going on and on and

on. This isn't the only thing that brought in

my cooperation.

Q. What were the other issues that you had?

A. I was fed up with the fact that the downstream

people were getting life terms and extremely

harsh terms, and no money was being cycled back

into their defense. I was also concerned that

we were selling this item, because the

organization was not supposed to be profiting

this heavy from this particular item.

Q. The organization, did it have a name, does it

have a name?

A. According to Pickard, he claims that he was at

the time heavily involved in the Brotherhood of


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Eternal Love. From the lineage of my

understanding of the system, it seems to be

correct.

Q. And Pickard that you're referring to, is he in

the courtroom here today?

A. Yes. William Leonard Pickard is the man

sitting there.

MR. HOUGH: For the record, Your

Honor, the witness has identified the

Defendant, who acknowledged such.

THE COURT: Yes, sir.

Q. (BY MR. HOUGH) And what was it- strike that.

The ET man, his problems had arisen and were

pending where did you say?

MR. RORK: Your Honor, I object that

this misquotes the evidence. He said it was

the ET man's associate that had the problem.

MR. HOUGH: The ET man's associate

was cooperating against the ET man. I'm asking

now, Judge, for the location that that was

occurring.

THE COURT: Yes, I understood that.

MR. HOUGH: Thank you, sir.

A. It was either Washington state, Oregon state or

both.


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1 Q. (BY MR. HOUGH) And prior to this/ had there

2 been any indication that anyone involved in the

3 organization was acting as a confidential

4 informant or a snitch/ or was this the first

time?

6 A. This was the first time that I had heard of a

7 situation like that. But we're going back the

8 three years that we've been arguing about this.

Q. Okay.9

A. Or two and-a-half years.

11 Q. So with that point of reference/ the

12 information you've just provided this jury/ you

13 decided to - with your attorney - approach the

14 Justice Department?

A. Yes/ 1-- yes.

16 Q. You indicated that there were efforts prior to

17 reac ng Washington/ D.C./ what exactly did

18 that consist of?

19 A. Well/ this is a strange story/ but I called

different districts and called them and said/

21 "I have a problem." I went to pay phones and

22 used calling cards because I didn't want it

23 tracing back to me until I could get some sort

24 of dialogue going. And I specifically called

in Washington/ D.C./ and spoke to a U.S.

NORA LYON & ASSOCIATES/ INC. 1515 S.W. Topeka Blvd./ Topeka/ KS 66612

Phone: (785) 232-2545 FAX: (785) 232-2720


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1 Attorney who was over the danger-...: who was

2 involved in the dangerous drug section of his

3 particular thing. I made a mistake l it turned

4 out he was a U.S. Attorney of Washington l D.C.,

not from the Attorney Generalis Office, but I

6 didnlt realize that. And he basically laughed

7 and said, "I donlt have time for you."

8 MR. RORK: Judge l I object to what he

9 said, unless theylre going to bring him here

and we can cross examine him.

11 MR. HOUGH: Judge, this is offered as

12 a preliminary matter to show how he wound up in

13 Washington, D.C., with an attorney.

14 MR. BENNETT: Judge, itls still

hearsay and I would join in Mr. Rork's

16 objection.

17 THE COURT: WeIll just- do not say

18 what he said, just-

19 A. Okay. 1 1m sorry. 1- I said I have what I

believe is the world's largest LSD conspiracy,

21 we have some significant problems, and I would

22 like to try to work out something with the

23 Government. And I, unfortunatelYI used the

24 word transactional immunity, which no longer

exists l and he laughed at me and- 11m sorry.

NORA LYON & ASSOCIATES! INC. 1515 S.W. Topeka Blvd., Topeka, KS 66612

Phone: (785) 232-2545 FAX: (785) 232-2720


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That's'it. I can't say what he said, so-

Q. Okay.

A. I then also, to finish your question, called

the U.S. Attorney's Office in Northern

California because I thought they would have a

better understanding. It was in San Francisco.

And I got a duty agent who left me on hold

forever. And effectively, no-- no one believed

the story.

Q. Subsequently, then, as I understand your

testimony, you contacted Tom Haney. And

ultimately the agreement was entered and the

order signed earlier today. Correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. Now, p or to-

THE COURT: Mr. Hough, why don't you

tell who Tom Haney is. We know, but I'm sure

the jury doesn't.

Q. (BY MR. HOUGH) You indicated earlier in your

testimony that you had an attorney. That

attorney is who?

A. Thomas D. Haney.

Q. And he-

A. He's from Topeka.

Q. Okay. And you had a relationship with Mr.


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1 Haney regarding a legal matter that was

2 resolved in this court. Correct?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. And let's take a moment and discuss that and

some other types of matters, okay? You have

6 had legal problems in the past. Correct?

7 A. This is true.

8 Q. The- one of those would be a misdemeanor

9 conviction in this court relative to possession

of an Interpole identification badgej is that

correct?11

A. True.12

13 Q. Are you aware that it has been alleged that you

have written counterfeit checks to Mr. Pickard?14

A. Yes. True, sorry.

Q. Now, did you file bankruptcy in '92 in16

17 Oklahoma?

18 A. Yes, the Northeastern District.

19 Q. Anything unusual about that bankruptcy filing,

to your knowledge?

21 A. Other than the size of it, which there was

22 nothing unusual except for I ended up with two

debts that I could not discharge.23

24 Q. To your knowledge, were there any allegations

of fraud?


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1 A. No.

......... 2 Q. Presently, are there some charges pending in

3 Potawatomie County District Court?

4 A. Yeah. I want to go back and answer that

question.

6 Q. Okay. Go ahead.

7 A. Prior to this event, I had never heard-- and I

8 mean the last few years, that there was some

9 problem with this. In the last few years,

there's been people tell me that there was some

11 allegations of fraud. But prior to 19 let's

12 say-- or the year 2000, I had never heard

anything remotely involving fraud with that

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bankruptcy.

Q. Okay. Strike my prior question, please. Are

there charges presently pending against you in

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Potawatomie County, Kansas?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. That's relative to allegations of theft of

stereo speakers?

21 A. True.

22 Q. You're represented by an attorney there?

A. True.23

Q. In addition to that l in June of 2002, did you

represent yourself to to be a doctor in the

24


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State of Washington?

A. Yes.

Q. And in that regard, prescribe drugs without a

license?

A. Yes. They were unscheduled, not scheduled

drugs.

Q. Okay. Is there presently pending a dispute

between you and Mr. Haney such that he does not

represent you anymore?

A. Yes.

Q. And is that dispute over attorney's fees?

A. Yes.

Q. Anything else?

A. No, not that I know about.

Q. Okay. Is there an incident regarding-

A. I'm sorry. 1-- I may-- I may have been a named

defendant in his lawsuit where he fell over the

fence and broke his ankle. I'm not for sure.

You (sic) could have been a named defendant on

that.

Q. And that was in your property-- or at your

property in Wamego?

A. That was at the missile base in Wamego. So,

yeah, I'm sorry. And besides legal fees, there

could be I'm a named defendant in that, I just


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1 don't know.

2 Q. Okay. And was there an issue relative to a

3 boat that wound up in the Cayman Islands?

4 A. Yes.

Q. Where was that-- was that legal matter filed?

6 A. Yes, in-- I don't know the district, but it

7 would have been approximately New Orleans,

8 Louisiana.

9 Q. Someone sued you over a boat?

A. Yes.

11 Q. And did they receive judgment against you as a

12 result of that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Had you used any aliases or any

misrepresentations in acquiring that?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. Was that in the Eastern District of Louisiana?

18 A. I can't tell you.

19 Q. Okay. Have you in the past described yourself

to the security staff at a casino as a

21 representative of the Billionaire?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you ever represent to your neighbors in

24 Wamego that you were the largest land owner in

Arizona?


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1 A. No .

........, 2 Q. Have you in the past used alias names?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And can you tell us what those are and when you

used them and why?

6 A. The when can be difficult, but I will do my

7 best. I will start with the lesser ones.

8 James Young I used approximately sometime in

9 186, 187, '88. Let's see. Charles Fletcher,

approximately those same years, had a driver's

11 license with that name on it. Gerard Terrence

12 Finnegan, P.C. Carroll. And then aliases that

13 are my actual name would be Gordon Todd Roth

14 Skinner. And there's still confusion if that's

my legal name right now or not.

16 Q. Why?

17 A. Because the State of Oklahoma only represents

me- only considers my name as Gordon Todd Roth

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Skinner, because when I got divorced my wife

did not-- my ex wife did not correctly fill out

21 the paperwork to change our names back to the

22 previous unhyphenated position. So that's a

23 confusing issue. And then another alias that

24 would be close to my name would be Todd Roth,

that came-- a credit card came through her, and


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they just dropped the Skinner, which was a

surprise, and I just carried the credit card

around. There are more aliases l I have to

think about them, so-

Q. We can come back.

MR. RORK: Judge, I would ask that he

be allowed to finish his answer. He asked for

time to think about it.

MR. HOUGH: Well, Judge I it's an

issue that we can come back to.

THE COURT: Well, you-- you go ahead

and handle it the way you want to.

MR. HOUGH: Thank you Judge.t

Q. (BY MR. HOUGH) What was the purpose at the

time of using these aliases?

A. In the-- okay, first of all, my Gordon Todd

all the Roth t Skinner-Roth stuff was nothing

but just normal life procedures. It was just

you know t because I wanted my children to have

hyphenated names so that there would not be a

patriarchial lineage there. Beyond that, the

rest of the names were used so that no one

would know who I was when I was doing anything

illegal or anything that I didn't want to be

traced, and to move through areas without the


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Government or anyone being able to follow me.

Q. Did all or part of that occur during the course

of the conspiracy that you're required to

testify about pursuant to this agreement?

A. No. Most of those names were all used in the

period of the '80s.

Q. Okay.

A. With the exception of this Roth, Skinner-Roth,

I used that prior to my marriage in '92.

Q. Okay. Sir, what is your understanding of what

will happen to you in the event that you tell

lies to this jury in this trial?

A. I would probably be prosecuted to the fullest

and get the maximum time that would be under

the guidelines.

Q. Pursuant to your agreement, do you intend to

tell the truth now?

A. Absolutely.

Q. Will you tell us, please, were you, in fact,

part of a conspiracy to manufacture and

distribute LSD?

A. Absolutely.

Q. And did at least part of that occur in the

State of Kansas?

A. Yes.


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Q. And can you tell us, sir, who else was involved

with you in this conspiracy in the State of

Kansas?

A. Okay. Apperson, Clyde Apperson, otherwise

referred to as "CD, William Leonard Pickard.

And then there would be people that knew about

it late in the game who would have been

technically involved in the conspiracy as for

example, if someone is driving the get-away

car, under the new laws or the new

interpretation, they, too, are part of the

conspiracy. These would be people like Michael

Hobbs, Gunnar Guinan, Lupe, my father.

Q. To the extent that they knowingly participated

in a conspiracy, if at all?

A. They were-- knowingly, but very late in the

game knowingly.

Q. Okay.

A. Only under emergency situations.

Q. Now, you indicated, sir, Mr. Apperson also

known as "C". Is he in the courtroom today?

A. Yes, he is.

Q. Would you point to him and identify him by

describing what he's wearing for the record?

A. Well, he's wearing a dark suit, but he's


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hunkered down, he has glasses on and he's-

there he goes and he's got a tie on.

MR. HOUGH: For the record, Your

Honor, the witness has correctly identified the

Defendant, who sat up from his hunkered

position once the-- the witness mentioned that.

THE COURT: Yes, sir.

Q. (BY MR. HOUGH) What role did you specifically

play within the conspiracy?

A. It's complicated. I was involved in money

laundering, I was involved in trying to locate

places that the labs would be at, I was

involved in making decisions of where money was

to go for what we, quote, called charitable

operations. I was also involved with

communications decisions, I was involved with

making decisions of security issues. Quote,

Pickard referred to me as a-- I have the

worldwide security for the Brotherhood of

Eternal Love, end quote. I was the document

keeper, to the best of my knowledge. I looked

and would make decisions that had to do with

was this a good decision, was this going to

cause a problem, constantly sifting through

errors of seizure-- I mean, errors of where we


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1 would have risk problems. Trying to keep us

2 abreast of legal problems that would occur.

3 Also interfacing with just general public

4 people that we were dealing with.

Q. What was the duration of your involvement in

6 s conspiracy to manufacture LSD?

7 A. Well, you- you know, if you mean from the

8 first time I knew that it was going on.

9 Q. Active participation by you in the conspiracy.

A. Well, I'm not trying to weasel on this, what

11 I'm trying to do is- active participation, in

12 one way I feel that a call came in to me on an

13 800 number for a precursor, and that would be

14 very early on, but I did not produce the

precursor, nor did 1- nor was I very happy

16 about the call.

17 Q. Would that have been essentially your first

18 knowledge of the conspiracy generally?

19 A. No, no. My knowledge-

Q. When did that occur?

21 A. Sometime in '95, '96, through- I think '96

22 through Alfred Savinelli.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. And it was code named at that time the Swimming

Pool Project.


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1 Q. And then when do you believe that you were

2 actively involved? For about how long prior

3 to

4 A. Well, ~ would like to-- without butting in

front of you, I'm sorry. Finish.

Q. When would be your belief that you were6

7 actively involved doing the things that you

just testified were your role in the8

conspiracy?9

A. Well, it's like, you know-- you know, if you

want to-- what is it, cook a frog and not let11

12 it know that you're slowly turning up the

13 temperature, so-- boil frog, sorry. So

14 gradually the involvement became greater and

greater, so-

16 Q. And started when?

17 MR. RORK: Well, Judge, if he would

18 actually let him finish his answer instead of

cutting him off when he doesn't say something

he wants.

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21 MR. HOUGH: Judge, 1-

THE COURT: Watch it. Go ahead.22

23 A. The first thing that would have been is that

24 1-- at the-- there was an ethnobotany

conference at the Palace of Fine Arts. It was


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1 the first time I physically ever saw William

'~ 2 Leonard Pickard. And he walked up to me and

3 asked me to launder $50,000, and I said I would

4 consider it or something like that. So that

would be part of the conspiracy.

6 Q. That occurred when and where?

7 A. I believe- I believe it was- and this has

8 been an issue that live seen before, November

9 of 1996. I mean, 1'm doing my best on this.

Q. Okay.

11 A. But I had had a phone call prior to that with

12 him identifying himself as Carlos, and I was

13 told that the phone call would be coming in.

14 MR. BENNETT:

going to object to what he was told, that's

16 hearsay. Deprives us of the ght to cross

17 examine whoever told him whatever was told to

18 him.

19 MR. HOUGH: Based upon the Court's

ruling at the James hearing, this would be

21 admissible, Judge.

22 MR. RORK: Well, Judge, he's talking

23 about a ruling. If it's something that he said

24 Mr. Pickard said or Mr. Apperson said, I have

no problem. If it's not, I would like to have


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it identified.

THE COURT: Well-

MR. HOUGH: These are co conspirator

statements! Judge.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. (BY MR. HOUGH) You may continue.

A. I was informed that a man by the-- with-- would

be using the code name Carlos would be calling

me looking for a chemical precursor that I

could obtain either through Sigma Aldrich!

let's just call it Sigma Aldrich! they're

merged effectively. And I had the ability to

get chemicals from Sigma Aldrich. What I was

surprised was that he said it on my 800 line

and I was in shock! so I cut the phone call off

and never returned anything about that.

Q. And that occurred approximately when?

A. I I can't tell you! 11m sorry.

Q. You indicated that you were involved with Mr.

Apperson and Mr. Pickard in this LSD

conspiracy! sir. Can you describe for the

jury! please! what each of their respective

roles within the conspiracy were?

A. I've got a question. Can I also-- this is

probably improper. Can I give the time of

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1 when - since it's in my mind, of when I met

2 "C", and then give that?

3 Q. That's fine. When did you meet Mr. Apperson?

4 A. It would be-- it would be of record the date

Leonard asked me to give "C" $50,000 and all

6 the name he gave me was "C". And he had to

7 leave town, he was at the Pan Pacific Hotel in

San Francisco. 50,000 was handed over to me.

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8

It was not my room, but it had been paid for.

I decided that I didn't want to transport the

11 cash, which it turns out to be interesting, and

12 I shoved it up into a furniture piece that was

13 a piece of decor in the room. And then I left.

14 And the next morning I had to come back,

I went to my girlfriend's house, I came back,

16 but it was good that I didn't carry the money

17 because I discovered that I had broke some sort

of regulation of traveling on the highway in

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the San Francisco area. And I was in the

carpool lane and it said two-seater only or

21 something, and I was in a two-seater car. And

22 I ended up getting a $450 ticket, which is a

23 matter of record, that day.

24 I did get to the hotel and then I was

late and I was saying to my girlfriend this is

~


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going to be a disaster because "C", according

to Leonard, is very prompt. And this is not

good. And I said here I got pulled over, you

know, a ridiculous situation. It turns out

that "C" was on that elevator with me. And the

only way that we knew each other was that we

both got off on the same floor. And I entered

the room and gave him the $50,000 in cash and

he left.

Q. What was your understanding of the purpose of

giving Mr. Apperson $50,000 cash?

A. Leonard just asked me to do it. It was

probably a-- he specifically didn't say what it

was. I mean, it was just owed to "C". I mean,

if he did say, I can't remember.

Q. Okay. This Pan Pacific Hotel is located where?

A. San Francisco.

Q. And the approximate date, if you recall?

A. I-- I can't recall. We would have to go back

to the record and look at tickets and hotel

receipts.

Q. Do you recall the approximate year?

A. '98.

Q. Okay. Other than "C", do you know Mr. Apperson

to go by any other alias names?


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1 A.

2

3

4 Q.

6 A.

7 Q.

8

9 A.

Q.

11 A.

12 Q.

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A.

16

17

18 Q.

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21 A.

22 Q.

'23 A.

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I've never heard any last names. There was

something about a Bill, but nothing more than

that.

Do you know Mr. Pickard to use other alias

names?

Yes.

Would you describe for the jury what those are,

please?

Bruce Niemi was one of them.

Bruce Nieme?

Yes. Maxwell.

Let's stop with Bruce Niemi. Do you know

whether or not there is an actual person named

Bruce Niemi?

There is a couple of people named Bruce Niemi,

but there's an actual person that I know named

Bruce Niemi.

And did you ever have any conversations with

Mr. Pickard about why he used the name Bruce

Niemi?

Yes.

Describe those for us, please.

Approximately the same height, gray hair,

approximately the same age. But there was a

problem that Pickard didn't like, and that's

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1 that they had two different eye colors l and he

2 was worried about that with ID.

Q. And this Bruce Niemi that is actually a person3

4 is does what?

A. WeIll he's now a professor-- I don't know what.

6 He is a teacher at a college l but he was a

7 state representative of the State of Oklahoma.

8 Q. Okay. Now, you indicated Mr. Apperson to use

the alias of Bill and you never knew the last

name?

9

11 A. Never. When I say never, I never knew it

12 during-- up until the year 2000 or-- you know l

13 November of 2000 or whatever.

14 Q. Let me show you what's been caused to be marked

and admitted as Government's Exhibit 121 and

16 identified as an identification card of Mr.

17 Apperson bearing the name Bill Martin on Cherry

18 Avenue, San Jose, California, phone number and

a badge number. Do you recognize the

photograph as that of someone you know?

21

19

A. Yes, that's Clyde.

22 Q. Clyde?

23 A. Apperson.

24 Q. Okay. The man you know as "C"?

A. "C" .

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1 Q. Did you ever know him to carry this false

2 identification?

3 A. No. I've never seen this until this moment.

4 Q. Okay. I'm sorry to have interrupted you.

Other than Bruce Niemi, you mentioned James

6 Maxwell as a name that Mr. Pickard used. Were

7 there others?

8 A. I believe John Connor, but Connor was

9 definitely the last name. There were other

names, and I'm going to have to think about

11 them. I'm sorry, we'll have to go back and

12 visit that.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. There were plenty of names.

Q. Now, you briefly touched on your first time

16 that you met Mr. Pickard. Can you tell us,

17 beginning upon the first meeting with Mr.

18 Pickard, how your relationship with him evolved

19 into your involvement in this conspiracy?

A. It was a very slow evolution. And during that

21 time that I first met him, it was just a social

22 gathering. We were staying- there was a group

23 of us who did not want to stay in the town for

24 the ethnobotany conference, it was quite large.

Q. And that town is what?


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1 A. San Francisco. And we stayed in a small town

2 on the coast called Stinson Beach at a place

3 called San Sushi, Jerry Garcia's old home. And

4 we used to have meetings there.

Q. What kind of meetings?

6 A. Oh, they would be meetings- this specific

7 meeting had a kind of a positive and a negative

8 to it. We-- extensive discussion was going on

9 about the fact that Nicky Sand had been busted

up in Vancouver in an MDMA, LSD, DMT lab. And

11 there were a lot of pale white faces at this

12 house.

13 Q. Who all was at the house and party to the

14 discussion that you recall?

A. I mean, there was Joel Kramer, his wife, Diana.

16 There was Ganga.

17 Q. Ganga who?

18 A. Ganga White. There was- Leonard was there.

19 Q. Leonard?

A. Pickard.

21 A. Alfred Savinelli. There were some chemists out

22 of Dave Nichols! lab. There was a D.M.

23 Turner, I canlt remember his real name, he has

24 since died, he was there. Bill Wynn. Of

course myself. There were other people staying

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there, they just were not involved in those

conversations. And there may be-- as I go on,

I can remember some other people that were

involved in that conversation.

Q. And the individual that they were talking about

was who?

A. He is considered one of the prominent and

highest members of the Brotherhood of Eternal

Love, and he goes way back with the

Brotherhood. And he had been a fugitive for 15

years or more, I believe, I'm roughly guessing

this. And he was a famed LSD chemist on top of

just a famed chemist.

Q. When did you get into the Brotherhood of

Eternal Love?

A. Well, I'm never for sure if I was in there,

because I'm not for sure which branch, if-- if

Pickard had the authority. But it would be

through Pickard that I would have been in that.

Q. And who is the Brotherhood of Eternal Love?

A. Well, originally it was a large organization

that carne out of the late '60s, early '70s.

And it's a-- the function was to produce-

well, they had-- they had hashish operations

back then, marijuana operations and psychedelic

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1 operations. The psychedelic operations would

~ 2 have been LSD/ mescaline/ MDA/ unfortunately

3 DOB or something I'm sorry/ DOM/ which was

4 nicknamed STP/ which was a disaster.

Q. Why was it a disaster?

6 A. Well/ a famed chemist made it and another

7 chemist copied it and they got the dose wrong.

8 And about-- and I can be totally wrong/ but at

9 least 1/200 people showed up in the San

Francisco area in about a 12-hour period in

11 emergency rooms. It was a-- it was very harsh.

12 And this was in the early '70s 1 as I remember.

Q. And the drugs basically that were the subject

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of the Brotherhood of Eternal Love would be

psychedelics/ hallucinogens?

16 A. With also hashish-

17 MR. RORK: Judge/ excuse me. Your

Honor/ that misstates the evidence. He said

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marijuana/ hashish/ and then we went into

psychedelics. So I would ask that the question

21 not misstate the evidence.

22 MR. HOUGH: The witness/ of course/

can answer appropriately to that question/

24

23

Judge.

THE COURT: Go ahead.


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A. I was getting ready to say a lot of funding at

that time came from hashish and marijuana.

Q. (BY MR. HOUGH) Okay. And then what was your

next step into the involvement in the

conspiracy?

A. Where I would say that I-- I accidentally ran

into Leonard at the hotel named the Mandarin.

Q. Approximately when?

A. February of '97. It was-- he was there for a

talk being given by Alexander T. Shulgin.

Q. Who is that?

A. He is a famed chemist who had a Schedule I

license, who I also know, who's written many

books and is given of the position of creating

the most different analogs and psychedelics,

quote, entheogens, quote-- or slash tactigens

(spelled phonetically) in the world.

Q. A Schedule I license for the jury's benefit is

what?

A. It allows you to do research under very tight

parameters with items that the Government has

put into a category that says there is no

medical use or legitimate use. And they cannot

be written as prescription items. I. e., a

Schedule I item could be THC, but I don't want


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to use that one, it would be better to use

something like PCP-- no, let's get off of that

one. Let's go to-- well, we'll just say LSD,

psilocyn, psilocybin, mescaline would be a

Schedule I. While Schedule IIs could be items

like cocaine, you know, methamphetamine.

Another Schedule I would be heroin. And then

you have Schedule IIIs and Schedule IVs. I . e . ,

Schedule III would be something like

Alprazolam.

Q. Mr. Sulgin also has an affectionate nickname?

A. Sasha.

Q. Okay.

A. But you have to remember that there has been

some confusion because when Sasha's name is

used, there has been some confusion because

there's another Sasha that is in the worldwide

family as we would call it.

Q. Okay. Tell us, then, about the the situation

at the Mandarin that you had started to tell us

about. What occurred there?

A. I accidentally ran into Leonard on the elevator

coming up. I think I was - I was coming up

from being down at the front desk and he was

carrying a little roller suitcase behind him,


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",...."

and we just were amazed to see each other. I

was-- I was not going to go to the meeting

because I didn't want that many DEA people to

see me. He had the guts to go to it, which was

pretty gutsy. And he went to the meeting and

we then talked. But in this bag he claimed to

have $700,000 in cash. And he actually did

have what looked like a large amount of cash

that he was wheeling along like you would take

your dirty clothes. I mean, it was pretty

humorous, sir.

Q. You indicated-

A. That's the way he dealt with cash.

Q. We'll get to more of that in a little bit. You

indicated that it was gutsy for him to go to a

meeting with DEA people there. Why?

A. Because Leonard has had-- is a known chemist to

the Government, and

MR. RORK: Your Honor, may we have

a instruct the Government. I would like to

approach the bench.

THE COURT: All right. You may do

so.

(THEREUPON, the following

proceedings were held at the bench and


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1 outside of the hearing of the jury) .

2 MR. RORK: My objection, if the Court

3 please, I believe that Mr. Hough had told me

4 this morning he was going to follow your order

in limine and approach the bench before he got

6 into any areas you ruled were excluded. And

7 what specifically is excluded is Mr. Pickard's

8 prior criminal conviction or any information

9 about that. And I don't think this witness- I

want to make sure, one, that Mr. Hough has

11 instructed him not to talk about the facts of

12 that case or anything relating to it in

13 violation of your motion in limine. That's my

14 concern.

MR. HOUGH: Judge, I hadn't asked him

16 about the conviction. My understanding of his

17 testimony was that he was not going to mention

18 the conviction. We're aware of the Court's

19 order regarding that. And the one thing that I

can do, while we are all here to save time in

21 approaching later, would be to ask him

22 follow-up questions to get to his knowledge of

23 the prior convictions now to establish the

24 relationship of the parties and his

understanding of his co-conspirator's


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1 experience and background in manufacturing LSD.

2 So to save time in coming up here later, I

3 would ask the Court's permission to ask him

4 questions about that now.

MR. RORK: Judge, I'm not prepared to

6 argue that right now. I came up here about

7 this witness and to make sure he was admonished

8 initially so we didn't get to slipping things

9 in, like we did with Mr. Sorrell. That way

there won't be any question. For him to say

11 I'm going to ask about his knowledge and

12 background is just another way of attempting to

13 get by your order in limine. That's my

14 concern.

MR. HOUGH: Judge, the relationship

16 of the parties within a conspiracy is a

17 completely different matter than the collective

18 knowledge of officers in a criminal

19 investigation. The Government is entitled in

the Pinkerton conspiracy case to establish the

21 relationship of the parties and their knowledge

22 one of the other and their understanding of the

23 experience one of the other in fulfilling the

24 role within the context of the conspiracy.

That's very well established law.


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1 THE COURT: Okay. Well, all of you

'~ 2 remember my orders, and I'm sure you're

3 remembering this. And this man is admonished

4 what to put in and what not to put in. So I

will- if that was an objection, I've done what

you want to do. Now, let's continue.

7

6

MR. HOUGH: Judge, we would ask the

8 Court the Court's order was that we approach

9 before getting into that.

THE COURT: Yes.

11 MR. HOUGH: I can get into that now

as opposed to approaching the bench later this12

afternoon, just to streamline this thing, and

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13

have him testify about it now while we're on

notice that it's coming, which is my request

16 now, ess you want repeated bench conferences

17 this afternoon.

THE COURT: Well, this is agreeable

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18

to the Court. Put it in the way you think you

need to put it in. And you can object to what

21 you want to object to. But I'm not worried

22 about the bench conference.

MR. RORK: Well, Judge, I object to23

24 any reference in any manner, in any fashion of

Mr. Pickard's prior conviction or the facts and

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1 events around that, period. For the state-

2 Government to try to get into it now and say

3 it's of a known conspiracy- this

4 conspiracy is charged from a date in 1998 to

November of 2002, the information deals with

6 the laboratory equipment at Wamego, it doesn't

7 deal with something that happened 15 years

8 earlier. It deals with what he did here. And

9 the Government's efforts to try and get in his

knowledge of Mr. Pickard as a chemist or making

11 LSD is just a backdoor way of trying to get

12 inflammato and prejudicial evidence whose

13 probative value- prejudicial value outweighs

14 the probative value to allow any of that to get

in here.

16 If tIs a conspiracy, he can talk about

17 all the deeds, all the acts, all the things

18 they did with this equipment. But to try and

19 bring in prior equipment I think is a violation

of Mr. Pickard's right his right to

21 confrontation, his right to have that evidence

22 brought in. That's impeachment evidence,

23 that's not dealing with the facts of his

24 credibility. Just like Mr. Skinner's evidence

of the Huleback death isn't admissible, as has


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1 been ruled by you. It's similar-type behavior.

2 It's not a conviction, it's not relevant here

3 in this proceeding, other than to inflame the

4 jury. And I-believe its prejudicial value

outweighs its probat value.

6 MR. HOUGH: Judge, lim sorry-

7 MR. BENNETT: I would just join in

8 in that. You're talking about a conspiracy

9 during a particular period of time, that's

what's been pled in the Indictment and it's

11 been amended twice to expand it. But it would

12 be our position that this man's testimony

13 should be restricted to that- that- the

14 conspiracy that's on trial here in this matter.

MR. HOUGH: Judge, those arguments

16 ignore 404(b) and they ignore the concept of a

17 Pinkerton historical conspiracy, which is what

18 this is.

19 THE COURT: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: Judge, we've never

21 received any notice of any intent to on

22 404 (b) .

23 MR. HOUGH: Mr. Rork did.

24 MR. BENNETT: Well, I didn't.

MR. RORK: And I don't have it in


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1 front of me.

2 MR. HOUGH: It's not 404(b) as to Mr.

3 Apperson, it is as to Mr. Pickard.

4 MR. BENNETT: Well, then that1s

another

6 THE COURT: Well, gentlemen, I want

7 each side to try their own case and I I'm not

8 going to allow you gentlemen to tell him how to

9 try his case and he tell you how to try your

case.

11 MR. BENNETT: Judge-

12 THE COURT: And backgrounds and

13 history is- is not bad in this, we-

14 eventually we're going to get into the

conspiracy for the time. But how they got

16 together and how they knew each other, there's

17 nothing wrong with that.

18 MR. RORK: Well, Judge, to say they

19 knew each other because they manufactured LSD

in the past is getting into evidence that we

21 object to. That's not telling him how to try

22 his case. We1re trying to ask that his case be

23 tried within the bounds of evidence. We came

24 up here for one objection and the Government

goes to somewhere else. I would ask that you


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order him to go on to other matters. At the

afternoon break I can look at the 404(b} notice

and have your order and the motion and argue

and you can constructively rule on it then. He

can go to other matters now. But to just open

the door to let him in and then have me stand

up and object, which you continually deny them

which is your right, is it looks like to the

jury I am trying to hide something. And what

I'm trying to do is make sure this case is

tried within the rules of evidence. That's the

problem I have.

MR. HOUGH: Your ruling was correct

and we would ask to be able to proceed and get

this case tried.

THE COURT: Yeah, I cannot see that

we're opening the door at this time. So I'm

going to overrule your objection. You may go

ahead.

MR. HOUGH: Thank you.

MR. RORK: I will just note my

continuing objection then.

THE COURT: Yes, yes, yes.

(THEREUPON, the bench conference

was concluded and the following


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proceedings were held within the hearing

of the jury).

Q. (BY MR. HOUGH) Were there other reasons that

in your estimation it was gutsYt other than

that one that you just gave us?

A. There was little reason for him to have gone t

he should have sent a person to gather the

information t to pay respect to Sasha t Alexander

T. Shulgin. He was in the middle of large

operations. It did turn out to be a problem

that he went t even he-- I don't know if I'm

allowed because it would be hearsaYt so I can't

say what he said t or I can?

Q. IIHe" is who?

A. Pickard.

Q. What he told you

A. Okay.

Q. What?

A. He told me a contact report was filled out and

that he was followed by some sort of undercover

agentt and he described where they were even

parked at. And he said t IIBe careful t I've

brought heat to us accidentally. II

Q. Okay. So what else happened as a result of

this situation at the Mandarin?

NORA LYON & ASSOCIATES t INC. 1515 S.W. Topeka Blvd. t Topeka, KS 66612

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A. Well, he did not want to put the bill on his

credit card, and it was-- he asked me to pay

his bill and I did.

Q. What was t total of that bill?

A. 6,700 or 6,800, sorry, I can't remember.

Q. And again, this was sometime in February of

'98?

A. I hope.

Q. And did you ever get reimbursed by Mr. Pickard

for that?

A. Yes. He sent me an envelope that was

intercepted, v Federal Express, by the Tulsa

narcotics squad. And I got this call and I

really didn't know, I was-- I was did not

take it as a joke. I was thinking some friend

of mine or enemy of mine had sent me something

through the mail, and I was-- instructed Bill

Wynn to call every possible person and say,

"Did anything come in the mail?" Because I was

very upset. When Bill came back and said live

contacted the known-- the

nothing happened, I then

claim the package."

Q. And did you?

A. I did.

usual suspects and

said, "lim going to go


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Q. And did you get the money out of the package?

A. Well, yeah. It became quite a tug-of-war

between Federal Express, the narcotics squad

and myself, because it-- the entire story was

misrepresented to me by the Tulsa narcotics

squad. They said it was a box and the drug

dogs had picked it up. When it was eventually

turned over to me, it was a very thin envelope.

And Federal Express said, IIWe don't want any

part of this,ll because it turns out I said,

"I'm going to shut down my account corporately

with you, Fed-Ex, for participating in this

lie." They then told the narcotics squad,

"Take this package outside of here, we do not

want any part of it."

I then told the narcotics squad I would

not put my hands on it, because I didn't trust

him, because I didn't want fingerprints. I had

him open the package, dump out the money, and

then claimed the money. He was shocked that I

claimed the money.

Q. This was $5,000 approximately?

A. It was exactly $5,000.

Q. And later did you recoup the additional 1,700?

A. In person.


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1 Q. And describe that.

2 A. In Taos, New Mexico.

3 Q. Describe that incident with Mr. Pickard.

4 A. Leonard came by Alfred's house and I said, "By

the way, that bill was like $6,700 and with

6 this was 5,000 "

7 Q. Alfred who?

8 A. Savinelli. Who has a house and a business in

9 Taos, New Mexico. And Leonard got the 1,700 or

1,800 out and gave it to me and said sorry.

11 And I said, "Here's the bigger problem," and I

12 showed him the narcotics squad card, I showed

13 him the envelope, I told him about the problem

14 and I said, you know, "Don't do this anymore."

Q. As a result-

16 A. And, in fact, I also said I'm not- because it

17 took this, you're going to have to front me

18 money out if I pay your bills.

19 Q. And did Mr. Pickard, in fact, front you money

from that point forward?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How much and in what form?

23 A. Always in cash. It could be different

24 denominations. It could have been different

currencies and I don't remember amounts of less


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1 than 50,000. Usually 100,000. But I could be

2 wrong. I mean, it was usually 50 to 100,000 or

3 more.

4 Q. And when you say "fronted," describe for the

jury what that means to be fronted money and

6 why that's done and what it means.

7 A. He gives me-

8 MR. RORK: Judge, I object to saying

9 he fronted me money and why that's done. I

want him to testify he fronted me money and why

11 he did it here.

12 MR. HOUGH: Well, Judge, if he wants

13 that done, he can certainly ask it on cross.

14 THE COURT: It's overruled. Go

ahead.

16 A. Cash would be given to me. And there were

17 multiple accounts, and one account was to pay

18 incidental bills for me electronically and,

19 therefore, the cash-

Q. (BY MR. HOUGH) Why were there bills

21 electronically?

22 A. Electronic money doesn't show a trail up to

23 FINCEN and to the Treasury Department and to

24 all the bank regulation organizations, which we

were very - trying to fly under the radar.


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1 Q. "We" is who?

2 A. It would be Pickard, myself, Apperson and such.

3 Savinelli. And we were-- I could be at this

4 we were experts at flying underneath that

radar. And I handled electronic money.

6 Q. Okay. In addition to that, the money- the

7 being fronted money in the context of the

8 conspiracy meant what?

9 A. Well-- again, okay. There- there was an

account to pay things that were just ongoing

11 bills, and then there was different types of

12 money that was given to me that may have been

13 fronted or may have been in arrears for actual

14 other types of items.

Q. Such as?

16 A. For example, if we were going to buy a large

17 ticket item, he would accumulate money in an

18 account with me, but this would be a different

19 account and it would be handled differently.

Q. What types of large ticket items?

21 A. Well, we were going to buy a house in Santa Fe.

22 Q. For what purpose?

23 A. To put an LSD lab in it.

24 Q. What period of time are we talking about there?

A. 99.I


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Q. Okay. Now-

A. I believe it was called the Sandosky (spelled

phonetically) house.

Q. Why was it called that?

A. It was the name of the physicist that had it

built. I could be wrong about the name.

Q. Now, can you describe for the jury, please-

you described your role. Describe for the

jury, please, Mr. Pickard's role and then Mr.

Apperson's role within the context of this

conspiracy.

A. Mr. Apperson's role was to-- he was basically

the setup and tear-down man.

Q. Meaning what?

A. Set up a lab. If there was a problem and we

were going to have an inspection, which was

always a problem, from the - there were

notorious stories about the Aspen lab always

having been - to be torn down and reset back

up. The Santa Fe lab I think had to have it

done a few times. It-- say like you rented a

house and the landlord said, "We want to come

through and look at it," well, you obviously

have to tear down the LSD lab because it causes

problems, and then you set it back up, so-- and


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so mainly "C"IS role at that point early on was

set up and tear down within this conspiracy. A

little bit later it graduated on to some money

laundering operations, maybe. I'm not fully

aware of that. And also, it involved hiring

smurfs.

Q. And a smurf is what?

A. A person that goes out and launders money for

you by buying small amounts of money orders,

wires small amounts of money and keeps you

underneath this FINCEN elaborate treasury

mechanism to catch illegal narcotics money and

all illegal money, whether it's narcotics or

not.

Q. Okay. And did Mr. Apperson, first of all

A. Also-

Q. graduate beyond that?

A. He did help with the chemistry, but- but

within this conspiracy, that was limited. He

also was - was responsible for building any

sort of mechanical item or repairing anything

within the lab or to disguise the lab's area or

to do work within the lab for ventilation, for

water corning in, electrical and so on.

Q. Okay. And Mr. Pickard's role within the


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conspiracy was what?

A. To obtain the precursors and to mainly

synthesize the LSD.

Q. And what do you mean, for the jury1s benefit,

synthesizing LSD?

A. Well, you start with some sort of erigot

derivative, letls say, i.e., Ergotamine and

tartrate, and then you use different chemicals

and you then come to lysergamide and then you

take the lysergamide and you use some different

operations and you end up with LSD. And this

is a very critical process for yields and this

is one of the things that Leonard claimed to be

really good at was high yields and it seems

that he was one of the best in the world, if

not the best for high yield, large batch.

Q. Large batch?

A. Which is quite quite a feat technically.

Q. And a large batch would consist of about what?

A. Anything -- well, you know, in the regular

world I mean anything above ten grams was a

large batch, but by our standards 500 grams and

up, I mean, you know-- you know, a couple of

kilograms accumulated. And one of the things

that Leonard had done was he had made a jump


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from the best yield of around 24 percent to a

claimed yield of 44 percent, which is quite a

scientific feat.

Q. Did he indicate to you or anyone in your

presence how that was done?

A. Well, a few stories to explain this. He said

because of my refusal to get the precursor from

Sigma Aldrich, it sent him in a different

direction for a recipe formula, chemical thing.

And because of that delay, he was able to come

up with a standard that would give him high

yields of - I can go into explaining what the

yield problem is, if you want me to.

Q. To the extent that you understand it, please

do?

A. Okay. The first thing is the conversion from

whatever your ergot source is, and let's say

that's - that ergot is going to have a certain

amount of lysergamide that will be in its

density that can be available. That will then

give you lysergamides that you can work into

LSD. And you start with-- that conversion

gives you X amount of a yield.

The next step is a very touchy-- and this

is where-- very specific properties, this must


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1 be done virtually in the dark because of a

2 problem called -- and I'm not -- I'm not going

to say the word correctly, impromazation3

4 spelled phonetically), and because of a problem

with light, full spectrum light. And I'll

6 explain both problems. So you have to have

7 shielded tubes and some processes have to

8 effectively be done completely in the dark.

9 Q. Have you seen this done?

MR. RORK: Judge, excuse me, I would

11 ask that he be allowed to finish his answer and

12 that the Government quit cutting him off.

13 THE COURT: I thought he had finished

14 his answer.

MR. HOUGH: Yes, Judge.

16 Q. (BY MR. HOUGH) Have you seen this done?

17 A. No, not the entire process.

18 Q. Are you capable yourself of making LSD?

19 A. No.

Q. Who do you know - - actually know that has that

21 knowledge and ability?

22 A. Dave Nichols, Sash Shulgin, Carl Nichols. I'm

23 just going from the reports, maybe you don't.

24 I just read reports, sorry. Leonard Pickard.

Sorry.


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Q. Okay. But you yourself are not capable of

that.

A. No. I'm sorrYI Tim-- Tim l the DEA chemist.

Q. McKibben.

A. Yeah.

Q. Now

A. Actually, I've got to go back. Carl can make

- did a one specific thing is all I've ever

read, I'm sorry.

Q. Relevant to this conspiracy the members ofI

which you are aware I who could make LSD 1 who

can cook it?

A. The only one would be Leonard Pickard.

Q. Okay. Now 1 did you ever have any conversations

with Mr. Pickard specifically regarding his

prior experience in manufacturing LSD?

A. Yes.

Q. And did those conversations include information

about prior experiences cooking the drug?

A. Yes.

Q. And did what he told you about that add to your

belief that he was actually capable and could

do this prior to you witnessing it?

A. I would like to answer it. OriginallYI the

first money that was given to me really made me

NORA LYON & ASSOCIATES 1 INC. 1515 S.W. Topeka Blvd. I Topeka l KS 66612

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suspicious that this may have been a hashish

and marijuana operation because of the money

all reeked of pot or marijuana, but that!s

was later rapidly - that was dissuaded and I

didn't believe that anymore.

Q. How -

A. Yes, from a technical standpoint, the

procedures of where he would talk about I saw

LSD and valuma-- L-U-N-- L-U-M-I LSD and the

procedures that he used and the ways that he

talked about how he did this. There were some

things that not very many people on the planet

would have known.

Q. Did he specifically indicate to you an

experience in Mountain View?

A. Yes.

Q. That added to your belief that he was real

about this?

A. He used to refer to himself as the poster child

for the California -- I don't-- the bureau of

narcotics of California, I don't know what

their real name is, sorry. It's whatever would

be like the DEA only state version of

California, and he referred to himself as the

poster boy for a very large bust by those terms


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Q.

A.

that occurred in Mountain View, Cali rnia.

And what did he tell you about that?

He said

MR. RORK: Your Honor, excuse me. If

the Court, please, may we approach, Judge?

THE COURT: Yes, you may.

MR. RORK: Prior ruling.

(THEREUPON, the following proceedings

were held at the bench and outside of the

hearing of the jury)

MR. RORK: Judge, in light of your

prior ruling, I will let the matter go on,

because you said let the Government try the

case the way they want to. When Mr. Skinner

doesn't give the answer the Government wants to

violate the order and Motion in Limine, they

ask it a different way. They also got in that

he knew how to do certain things, and that may

have been within the-- (reporter interruption)

that may have been within his knowledge. And

now he's talking about Mountain View, giving

evidence again of a specific instance of

conduct. That's the exhibit that you ruled was

inadmissible. That's the exhibit that you

ruled t evidence and the maintenance of, the


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LSD laboratory was not to be talked about.

That's the exhibit and the information that you

ruled in the case would not be admissible into

evidence. I need to be sure I find the right

order. And again, he's bringing in Mr.

Pickard's prior conviction and the nature of

the conviction, the fact that he had been

convicted in California, the fact that he had

made the LSD in California. The Mountain View

search is the same evidence in your previous

order you said would not be admissible. And I

believe the Government has now substantially

violated your rule and which it said should be

excluded in this case. I don't know if I

grabbed the right order, Judge, I've got the

November 27th.

MR. HOUGH: Judge, there is -- we

went over this the last time we were up here.

We thoroughly discussed it at the last time we

were at the bench and the Court ruled that this

witness could testify regarding his knowledge

and his conversation with his co-conspirators

regarding this issue. So I don't understand -

unless Mr. Rork has some new thing to add, this

is a rehash regarding the matter the Court has


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already ruled on at the bench the last time we

were here ten minutes ago.

MR. RORK: And/ Judge/ when we were

at the bench ten minutes ago/ he went back out

there and he didn't talk about his conviction/

he said read back the question. And the

question he read back was/ quote/ "Mr. Pickard

was known to be a chemist to the DEA." That's

not inflammatory in and of itself in light of

the ruling. But then go back now and list

specific facts about the conviction is in

violation of your order. There's been no

evidence at this point in time that Mr. Pickard

has been convicted of manufacturing LSD/

there's been no indication in this regard that

he was known that would in any way have

facilitated this conspiracy. It's outside the

conspiracy/ Judge. It's not in furtherance of

the conspiracy. And again/ you've already

ruled its probative value outweighs its

prejudicial value. And we would touch upon

when Mr. Skinner testified/ depending upon what

you let in excuse me/ Mr. Pickard testified.

Mr. Pickard hasn't testified/ Judge/ and to let

it in in the case in chief I would argue is a


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violation of the previous order. I don't have

it with me. If you wouldn't mind taking the

afternoon break at this time, I can get it so I

can again argue it more constructively than try

to write and look for the motion while the

Government is asking questions.

MR. HOUGH: Judge, I understand- I

think we can all agree that Mr. Rork doesn't

like it, but the fact remains that the Court

has ruled it's admissible and we will ask that

we be allowed to proceed with Mr. Skinner's

testimony of his conversation with Mr. Pickard

to and including Mr. Pickard's statements to

Mr. Skinner and other co-conspirators about the

Mountain View lab and his past experience

there.

THE COURT: Well, we're not saying

anything about convictions at all now, are you?

You're not going-

MR. HOUGH: I ultimately will

indicate that Pickard bragged about the

conviction and that that formed at least part

of the basis for the conversations early on and

Pickard telling him about his prior experience

manufacturing LSD.

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1 MR. RORK: Judge l that's in light of

2 the motion they filed with you. That

3 allegation isn't in anything that you ruled on

4 before. In factI it's just now been said for

the first time. That's why I wanted to get the

6

7

order.

MR. HOUGH: Judge l we went over this

8 the last time we were up here. It's the -

9 it's admissible to show Mr. Skinner's knowledge

11

of his co-conspirators l conversations among the

co-conspirators relative to the conspiracy and

12 statements made during the course thereof are

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admissible l whether

is not limited. In

it's regarding prior crimes

this easel this conviction

is for LSD manufacturing in Mountain View l

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California. This conspiracy was regarding an

LSD manufacturing l Mr. Pickard was the cook

there. He bragged about it to Mr. Skinner and

other co-conspirators during the course of this

conspiracy. And it's admissible.

THE COURT: WeIll I will take a break

now and I'll go back and go through these

23 orders and see. Each side has a great ability

..........

24 to enlarge upon what

and it brings things

I what I have ruled on l

in that kind of surprise

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1 me, but I will go look at this again.

MR. BENNETT: Before you do that,

3

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Judge, I just would like to -- in view of this

4 and is -- what is being attempted and what is

occurring, I want to renew my motion to sever

6 for the reason that this is -- has nothing to

7 do with Mr. Apperson and its - its spillover

8 is -- is very damaging in my opinion to -- or

9 will be damaging in the eyes of the jury. So I

I understand the Court's ruled on the motion

11 to sever, but I just wanted

12 THE COURT: Up until this time,

13 Apperson has been in it. But maybe we're

14 getting into something where he's not into it

at all.

16 MR. HOUGH: Judge, we will proffer

17 the witness would testify Mr. Apperson's

18 awareness of and conversation about this

19 conspiracy with Mr. Skinner and in his

presence. In fact, Skinner will testify that

21 Mr. Apperson was, in fact, present from time to

22 time in the Mountain View lab, that Mr.

23 Apperson told his wife strike that. Mr.

24 Apperson's wife read about Pickard's arrest in

the paper and Apperson told Skinner that when

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that occurred, his wife rolled over and slapped

him and knocked him out of bed and that

Apperson, Pickard and Skinner were all laughing

about that incident. So it's relative to all

three men; Apperson, Pickard and Skinner,

relative to the manufacture and agreement,

conspiracy to manufacture and distribute LSD.

THE COURT: All right. Well, I will

we'll take a recess and we'll come back.

(THEREUPON, the following.

proceedings were held before the jury)

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen,

let's take a 15 minute recess at this time, and

then weIll come back and hear further

testimony.

(THEREUPON, a short recess was had after

which the following proceedings were had before

the jury)

THE COURT: Would the attorneys

please approach the bench and Illl -

(THEREUPON, the following proceedings

were held at the bench and outside the hearing

of the jury).

MR. HOUGH: Judge, if I might, so

the record is clear, and I articulated this


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poorly earlier, but the information that Mr.

Skinner would be offering is intrinsic evidence

in the form of 404(b). And it's our position

that offered in this form it is admissible as

intrinsic independent of 404(b). But in

addition to that, for the reasons we previously

articulated, it is also admissible pursuant to

404 (b) .

THE COURT: All right. We've gone

through our orders and we've ruled on certain

things, other things we did not rule on. And

the things we did not rule on were things that

we said we would take up at trial and -- and

rule on as we went along during trial. So far

I do not find that you are violating any of my

orders, so you can go ahead and -- and put it

in. And I understand that, this is testimony,

it started out to show why he got into the

conspiracy and how he got how he met Pickard

and all of this, and this is pretty much

information on that. We're going to allow you

to go into it.

MR. HOUGH: Thank you, Your Honor.

MR. RORK: Judge, I need to show for

the record that in your Order No. 217 filed


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November 26th, 2002, you went through the

arrest record of Mr. Pickard, you specifically

talked about this 1988 conviction and you said,

quote, "The 1998 arrest is much too old under

Tenth Circuit law, even though it involves

possession of an LSD lab." You then went over

other factors and you said given the defenses

of Mr. Pickard and what may come out for a

public authority defense, you may at trial

reconsider it. You then went down and said

under Rule 609 these convictions, again, they

were over ten years old and you needed to make

a finding that the probative value outweighs

its prejudicial effect. And you said you would

address that at trial.

Judge, we filed for the record back in

20bl a motion for discovery of Rule 404(b)

evidence. We filed on August 2nd, 2001, an

objection to admission of evidence and

indicated what the Government's letter said.

They never filed anything. You issued your

order on November 26th, 2002. Which only

today, January 28th, 2003, now the Government

tries to offer you different reasons why they

want it in. And again, your order was that


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the-- because of Pickard's public authority

defenses, it would be revisited. The

Government's notice wasn't that it was why they

got together or how they got together, they're

asking this witness about things-- he's asking

to brag about these convictions and whether

he's bragging about them or not, and that's

never been told to us. It's never been

disclosed to us, it's never been brought up.

It's-- the first time we know about it is in

the questioning of this witness. So we would

ask that if you're going to deny the motion for

a mistrial and again the motion not to let-

not to go into it, we would ask for a

continuance for time to develop evidence of

this witness and the statements he's now making

for the very first time on a case that's been

pending since November 5, 2000. And we think

its prejudicial value is outweighed by the

probative value to get into this.

It's the same thing, Judge, you wouldn't

let in the information about the death of Mr.

Hulebak and those charges, and it's not good

enough for the prosecution. We just object.

We need time to develop- we need time to


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investigate and develop this.

MR. HOUGH: Well, Judge, there are

several issues. Number one, defense counsel

has been provided with all the reports of Mr.

Skinner's statements, number one. Number two,

404(b) notice was given at -- well, if they had

made the request, we disclosed the 404(b).

Additionally, the Court analyzed the 404(b) and

the Court also analyzed the issue as it relates

to cross examination of Mr. Pickard. And then

the fourth issue was the issue of intrinsic

evidence. The Government does not have to give

notice such like 404(b) to use intrinsic

evidence. However, the evidence carne in the

form-- the highway AA and the disclosure carne

in the form of disclosure of the reports and

they got all the reports. Everything that's

been written of the interviews of Mr. Skinner

theY've been provided with. So these motions

that they're raising now we would ask the Court

to reaffirm its ruling it gave when we walked

in the door and deny these motions and let's

proceed.

MR. RORK: And, Judge, I just -- I

have no reports that say Mr. Skinner ever


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bragged -- Mr. Pickard ever bragged to Mr.

Skinner about these convictions. I have no

reports that say Mr. Pickard said these

convictions are what got him into the

conspiracy. All I have is reports that says

Mr. Skinner was aware of Mr. Pickard's criminal

history, period.

THE COURT: Well, I've reviewed all

of those things you just went through there and

to see if there's anything that's binding. And

I cannot tell what witnesses are going to

testify to when I make rulings or how it comes

in, the different circumstances that come

around. So I'm going to -- to allow you to go

ahead and let's go ahead and put this evidence

in.

MR. RORK: And just so it won't be

disruptive, I want it noted for the record that

that's a definitive ruling, so I don't have to

make continuous objections like I'm trying to

hide something.

THE COURT: Either way.

MR. RORK: That's fine.

(THEREUPON, the bench conference was.

concluded and the following proceedings


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were held within the hearing of the

2 jury) .

3 THE COURT: You may continue, Mr.

4 Hough.

MR. HOUGH: thank you.

6 Q. (BY MR. HOUGH) Mr. Skinner, before the break,

7 we were talking about an incident that you had

8 had a conversation with Mr. Pickard and/or Mr.

9 Apperson about - regarding Mountain View.

Would you describe that for the jury?

11 A. One of the things that Leonard said was he said

12 that there was even microphones in the trees

13 and he said it was a really bad situation. He

14 said it was lucky that Clyde didn't get busted

because Clyde had been there not many hours or

16 days before. Clyde's story to me about it was

17 that his wife - they're in the bed and his

18 wife picks up the newspaper, reads it and she

19 elbows him and effectively knocks the wind or

knocks him out of the bed. And they used to

21 laugh about that quite a bit. And he said that

22 if she ever found out that he was involved in

23 this operation again, she would

24 MR. BENNETT: Well, now, Judge, I'm

going to object to what Mrs. Apperson said.


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That's clearly hearsay.

THE COURT: Yeah, I will sustain the

objection. Go ahead.

Q. (BY MR. HOUGH) Did Mr. Clyde Apperson, this

Defendant, communicate to you what his wife had

told him?

A. Yes.

Q. What did Mr. Apperson communicate to you was

told to him?

MR. BENNETT: Same objection, Your

Honor, it's just -

MR. HOUGH: It's his co-conspirator's

statement.

MR. BENNETT: hearsay.

THE COURT: They're doing it now on

co conspirator statements, go ahead.

A. That she said that if he was ever involved in

this or ever hung out with Leonard, it would be

a very bad situation, I don't remember exactly,

an elaborate mechanisms for payment and why he

was gone had to be created. He was working

Q. "He" being who?

A. Clyde Apperson. When he would leave the area,

he would have to say I'm working on a project

for, i.e., Native Scents, with some of their

NORA LYON & ASSOCIATES, INC. 1515 S.W. Topeka Blvd., Topeka l KS 66612

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heavy equipment or machinery or whatever or I'm

going to do a project with robotics or

something like that.

Q. And what exactly was the incident in Mountain

View specifically that the three of you, Mr.

Apperson, Mr. Pickard and yourself, discussed,

what was that incident?

A. There was a -- equivalent to a container that

was large like a shipping container that was on

a piece of property that Leonard had an LSD lab

in. And it was busted by the Bureau of

Narcotics Control, BNC I believe is what it's

for, California, and this turned into a fiasco,

because it wasn't properly identified what it

was. A man went in there, he got heavily

exposed, quote, had severe damage, had to go to

the hospital and maybe have a long-term damage

from it.

Leonard was convicted, I believe is what

he said, but there was some sort of a civil

action that he filed, I don't remember what it

was, but he was convicted and went to jail.

Q. Okay. Did this group always just manufacture

LSD?

A. Do you mean Clyde Apperson and Leonard Pickard?


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Q. Correct/ to your knowledge.

A. No -- well/ do you mean direct knowledge or

from things they told me?

Q. From either what Mr. Apperson and Mr. Pickard

told you during the life -

A. Okay.

Q. -- of your involvement in their conspiracy or

that you had independent knowledge of.

A. All right. Things that they told me was that

they - Leonard used to say that at one time he

was the largest producer of MDA and he had

produced tremendous amounts of it/ in excess of

500 kilograms/ maybe 1/000 kilograms. He said

it wasn't very profitable for the long term/

but it -- he lived in Hollywood and lived in

the nicest areas of LA/ but he wasn't making

the kind of return he wanted from that.

They also made mescaline. Clyde was/

quote/ a better mescaline chemist than Leonard

was. Leonard did not refute that. It -- even

Clyde would describe how they - in the early

days they would take bed sheets and squeeze

down at certain chemical processes. They also

told a humorous story about how these -

they're sitting - in the early whatever period


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1 they're sitting with a lab in a warehouse, the

2 door's open because it's hot. I believe they

3 both said they were smoking pot. The police

4 show up, they figure it's allover. The police

get out of their car and say have you seen this

6 robber or burglar or a strange person, and they

7 said no, and the police left with all of this

8 laboratory equipment going. And they never had

9 a problem from it. They said that's just one

of the many funny stories that happened to

them.

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11

Q. And did they tell you how it evolved out of the

13 MBA (sic) and mescaline into LSD?

"-'" 14 A. No, it was MDA.

Q. MDA?

A. Yeah.

17

16

Q. I'm sorry.

18 A. Well, first of all, Leonard was supposed to -

19 Leonard said that he was a protege of Nicky,

and he actually got busted with before at

21 this time it was not illegal to - he had the

22 lab but there was no residue, it was a clean

23 lab, it was a cellular operation that the

24 brother had created. And in case Nicky went

down or someone went down, they had a backup

~


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lab to go to. Leonard had one of these-

somehow he got busted with one of the backup

labs, but they couldn't get a conviction, if

the story is true at all, because there was no

residue, it was all fresh glassware. Now it

would be a problem under the current laws.

Q. And describe for us, if you will, how they told

you, Mr. Apperson and Mr. Pickard, how it

evolved out of that into LSD.

A. Well, they - first of all, they said mescaline

just yielded almost no money, they couldn't

make money off of mescaline, and

Q. And did they describe what that meant?

A. Enough money to justify the risk, the time,

similar type of a situation like that. In

other words, there's a lot of work for a low

amount of profit.

Q. Low amount of profit being what?

A. I don't know, I mean

Q. Okay.

A. I don't know the percentages, I didn't talk to

them about it. But -- but the LSD operations

would come and go as far as profitability, but

Leonard said that this was the biggest ride for

this last take-off because he finally got much


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"'"

higher yields due to very specific control in

the manufacturing process. And they said this

-- that this was the big giant cash flow cow

they had been waiting for.

Q. Were you involved in that manufacturing process

yourself?

A. Well, technically as a -- they would have me

move equipment up and down flights of stairs

and such, but as far as was I in the lab making

it, no.

Q. And can you describe for the jury, please -

MR. RORK: Excuse me, Your Honor.

He's asked this witness if he was involved and

he's asked him about all of these conspiracy

things, and this witness says, well, as far as

moving it, no, and then he's allowed to testify

about all of these things that other people he

says. He should be allowed to continue about

the other things he did other than just moving

it so I object to him not letting him finish

his answer, I, and, 2, letting him define his

answer to just be physically and not what he

conspiratorially supposedly did.

MR. HOUGH: Objection. If there's a

question Mr. Rork would like to ask the


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witness, cross examination is the mechanism.

MR. RORK: Judge, this is an

objection. I ask that Mr. Hough properly

follow the decorum.

THE COURT: Well, let him go ahead

and finish his answer, if he thought that he

didn't.

Q. (BY MR. HOUGH) Were you finished with the

answer, sir?

A. I think so.

Q. NOW, would you describe, please, for the jury

your understanding from Mr. Apperson and Mr.

Pickard when the LSD lab started and its

movements, when and why, prior to arriving in

Kansas?

A. Okay. This is the -- this is after he gets out

of jail and he is - does a little stint as a

Buddhist monk and they

MR. BENNETT: Judge, I'm going to

object to this unless he describes who he is.

MR. SKINNER: Leonard Pickard.

THE COURT: All right. Go ahead.

Q. (BY MR. HOUGH) Go a:head, sir.

A. Leonard Pickard after he gets out of jail.

MR. RORK: That's not responsive to


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1 the question. He asked him what did he do as a

2 result of this charge here, and he's talking

3 now about a time period fifteen, 20 years ago.

4 MR. HOUGH: Judge, nonresponsive is,

as a rule, an objection reserved to the

6 questioner.

7 THE COURT: Correct. Go ahead.

8 A. So what happens is is that I could be very

9 wrong about this early stage because I wasn't

there, so I'm going through -

11 Q. (BY MR. HOUGH) I'm asking you what they

12 communicated to you.

13 A. Right. Well, Pickard said that he got into

14 Dave Nichols' lab.

Q. And Dave Nichols is who?

16 A. He has a Schedule I license at Perdue and he is

17 a famous LSD researcher.

18 Q. Okay_

A. At the molecular design. He's also made

psilocybin or psilocyn for Rick Strassman for

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FDA and DEA approved human studies, which ties

22 into this story later on down.

23 Leonard says he got into the lab and he

24 was able to make 66 grams, the number was

strange that he remembered that, I could be


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wrong, and that started booting up the cash

flow once again. And this - I don't know the

year that it happened. And then the next

movement from there I believe was the Aspen

lab.

Q. And describe that as it was communicated to

you.

A. Yeah, he had a Russian lady who had a Russian

passport, of which I presented the evidence,

and she rented a house in Aspen, Colorado. And

they, being Clyde and Leonard, put a lab in

there and they got a lot of the -- oh, the

standard chemicals and glassware from Native

Scents and/or Alfred Savinelli and other places

being-- the precursor being like from the ET

man, and they started this lab there.

One of the problem was that the rent was

I think 15,000 a month, and the house was

falling apart and Clyde was constantly having

to tear down the lab and-- while the workers

would come in and put it back up and such and

such. Then the lab moved from there -- by the

way, there's a - some evidence-- I know when

the lab was moved up there and it was in a

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1 Lahave , however you say his name I sorry. I

2 know Hugo for some time.

3 Q. Do you know the spelling of his name?

4 A. I'm sorry, I can't spell it. I could probably

do it if you gave me a little time.

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. And Hugo is a friend of Alfred and was a friend

8 of mine. And Hugo moved the lab. I didn't

9 know he moved part of the lab or part of the

precursor without knowing this.

11 Q. As communicated to you by Mr. Pickard and

12 Apperson and Savinelli?

13 A. That's correct.

.~

14 Q. Okay.

A. And when I told this to Hugo later, he was very

16 upset. They then had this lab in-- things were

17 kind of getting going cash-wise and there was

18 money going around. Savinelli was absorbing

19 quite a bit of cash at this point because he

needed to get paid back. Then for whatever

21 reason , the time duration , the mess with the

22 house, they moved the lab down to Santa Fe.

23 Q. Was there some discussion between you, Mr.

24 Apperson and Mr. Pickard about an appropriate

time for the lab to be set up at one location?

~


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A. They did not like to go past two years.

Q. Okay.

A. They thought that was too long in one spot.

Q. And can you describe, then, the next stop into

Santa Fe?

A. Yep, they moved a -- a lab into Santa Fe, and

one of the things they liked about that was

that the precursor source was closer to the

lab, the precursor source being Native Scents,

not only the precursor - all of them, but some

of them. And also, they had a great place to

dispose of the trash in Taos, which was a very

risky proposition for them. Just trash

disposal is risky.

Q. Describe that.

A. Well, first of all, you have very toxic items.

Second of all, it's evidence and you've got to

have somewhere disposing it and having someone

watch it being disposed to make sure that it

doesn't get carted off and somehow ends up in

the authority's hands or ends up hurting

someone accidentally.

Q. And is that the type of a thing that can, in

fact, occur with the waste products of LSD, to

your knowledge?


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A. Absolutely.

Q. And what kind of harm can result?

A. Well, severe seizures-- in high doses severe

seizures. Plus then all the normal exposure to

just being exposed to hexsane, methylene

chloride, just the normal exposure to these-

to waste chemicals, you know. Those are not

what we call things you want to hang out with,

you know.

Q. And describe for us to your knowledge based on

your personal knowledge, observation and as

communicated to you by Mr. Apperson and Mr.

Pickard, the events relative to the lab in

Santa Fe?

A. Okay. Well, first of all, the Santa Fe lab was

a successful lab from the standpoint of the

overhead was much lower. They felt they had a

safer firewall, meaning that they had a family

or a couple that owned the house that didn't

live in the United States, they had a good

cutout. A cutout is a person, who rents

something who doesn't know what they're doing

theoretically, that rented the house. And

their overhead for that house wasn't 15,000

plus all the bills, but it was a couple of


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thousand dollars, plus whatever you kicked to

the man that's the cutout.

Q. Okay.

A. And so they had a successful lab. But in that

lab they had - not they -- Leonard had at

least one or maybe two accidents of where he

crashed enormous amounts, broke enormous

amounts, of LSD or some form close to the end

product on himself.

Q. Did Mr. Apperson and/or Mr. Pickard communicate

with any specificity what had occurred to you?

MR. BENNETT: Judge, I -- I'm going

to object to the form of the question. He's

putting it to the witness "Did Mr. Apperson or

Mr. Pickard." I think we're entitled to know

which individual provided what information. So

I object to the form of the question.

MR. HOUGH: Your Honor, with all due

respect, the objection is premature because the

answer to this question is yes or no. If the

answer is yes, the next question is who was it.

And then the third question is, what did they

tell you.

MR. BENNETT: Well, there hasn't been

any "who was" in any of these questions up to


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Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

now, Judge.

THE COURT: Well, you're correct.

Try to proceed in that -- with that line of

questioning.

MR. HOUGH: Thank you.

(BY MR. HOUGH) Did one or the other or both

describe the specific incidents of the spills

in the lab?

Yes, both Leonard and Clyde.

And what did

Leonard's description

Tell us what each of them told you.

Leonard said that his his worry was -- on at

least one of the spills that he was really

specific about. He had a hot tub and he said

he was really medically worried with that kind

of exposure. He went and jumped in the hot

tub. He said the odd thing was he got no

effect, which is really remarkable, and -- or

close to no effect. And he said he thought

there was a chance he had died when it hit him

because it was such a massive dose.

The other thing is, he said, once he

realized he wasn't going to die, he said, "All

of this work and," he said, "my knees got


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wobbly, when I realized I was physically all

right, that I had just lost all that money

because it was a huge amount that was broken."

Apperson was upset because he said this was an

unnecessary mistake and he said no matter how

hard you cleaned, it just kept coming out of

the bricks, with the Satillo tile or whatever,

and just kept coming out and coming out and the

house was severely contaminated in this spot,

so much so that when when I was brought in

to bring the team to help shut this lab down

and eventually take possession of it and move

it to Kansas, that the employee that we used,

he was named Lupe, because he was an excellent

worker with tile, marble. He had worked for me

extensively. He went in there and I would give

specific -- I gave him spe~ific instructions, I

did not want this man exposed to a chemical, I

did not want any problems. I wanted to and

Apperson said he had thoroughly cleaned it and

all he needed was these brick chipped out and

replaced. Lupe got severely dosed and, as I

understand, as of a and a half ago still

has complaints about the damage that he had

received. He also went off wondering when he


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got returned to the house so that that's

that's the basic story there. And as I

understand, they never fully got it cleaned up.

Q. And "being dosed" means what?

A. Exposed to LSD.

Q. And it would have the hallucinogenic

consequences you previously testified about?

A. Yes, but -- but in those dose levels it could

be something beyond that. You could have

physical tremors and you could have extreme

vasoconstriction going on throughout the body.

It's a strong, strong vasoconstrictor in large

amounts.

Q. Can you tell us what time period, to your

knowledge and based on your involvement, that

this lab was up and running in Santa Fe?

A. Let's just basically say 198, 199.

Q. Okay. And then tell us who did what, when

relative to Santa Fe from the time it was moved

from Aspen to Santa Fe to the time that it was

broken down?

A. Mainly Leonard was involved because I would see

him in the area on a regular basis. I'd go

over to Taos and Leonard would pop up and say

hello. I -- we did -- I saw quite a bit of C


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1 in the final tear-down.

2 Q. C is who?

3 A. Meaning Clyde Apperson. We all stayed in - I

4 have hotel bills to prove it, and we stayed in

an area which I did not know was so close to

6 the lab, because I was not even privy to where

7 the lab was actually at because I really didn't

8 care until the very end. I was brought in

9 because we had a disaster in how they loaded a

trailer up.

11 Q. And describe that for us.

12 A. Well, the trailer was loaded with the forward

13 part being way too heavy and we needed to move

14 it and it required myself and Mike Hobbs coming

there and, you know, dealing with this. While

16 we had walkie-talkies to make sure we used a

17 car caravan in case a police pulled it over,

18 that-a-way one car could take off and get the

19 police off of the trailer. That's how we moved

things and we moved it to - I may be just

21 running on, I'll stop there.

22 Q. Now, as far as take down the lab, you

23 previously testified Mr. Apperson was always

24 involved in the set-up and take-down of the

lab.


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1 A. Not always, mostly, usually.

."-",, 2 Q. And were you aware of what his fee was to do

3 that?

4 A. Well, there was a different kind of fee. I

think the fee had to be negotiated down in

6 Aspen because it was such a disaster how many

7 times they had to take it up and put it down.

8 But on a major set-up, initial brand new house,

9 100,000 just starting off. But if it was

internally like the landlords are coming

11 through, it was a $50,000 fee.

12 Q. Okay. And the lab was moved from Aspen to

13 Santa Fe in approximately when?

14 A. I can't tell you.

Q. And to your knowledge, the best of your

16 recollection as you sit here now, it was

17 operational in Santa Fe when?

18 A. Up to let's say September of '99.

19 Q. Okay. Who made the decision to move out of the

location in Santa Fe?

21 A. Well, it was a complicated decision, but

22 basically Clyde and myself, through a series of

23 accidents, actually, was able to convince

24 Leonard to move that lab out of New Mexico.

Some things had happened. The Government had


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effected a bust against a religious group, a

spiritual group, called the UDV, and that meant

there was more eyes on that. Alfred Savinelli

was tangentially involved.

Q. And this was in Santa Fe?

A. The bust was in Santa Fe.

Q. Okay.

A. And - but that wasnlt the bigger problem. The

bigger problem was that in one day we ran into

three people that knew Leonard, and I said and

C said, and we said that's enough. I mean, to

run into three people in one day that you know,

Santa Fe is too small. Those three people I'm

going to do the best I can to remember. One

was the carpenter who was the cutout who rented

the house. The other one was (pause)

Q. Do you recall his name?

A. No, 11m sorry. Ungeleiderls wife gave

Ungeleider and the third person I'll have to

remember, I'm sorry.

Q. And then about what time was this that that

event occurred and the decision was made to

dismantel and move?

A. Well, no. Dismanteling was going down no

matter what because Alfred had said this lab is


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moving from that house. He said the game ~s

over. Alfred Savinelli and Leonard were having

a significant battle, some threats were made

and such and such. Some sort of story like "If

this lab isn't moved, I'm going to go down

there and burn it to the ground," something

about an ice pick through the heart. These

kind of statements were made from Alfred to

Leonard.

Q. And why was, to your knowledge, Mr. Savinelli

upset?

A. He felt that Leonard was getting too sloppy.

Leonard had left a gas burner on at Alfred's

house without the flame going, and he said, "If

he's doing this here, what's he doing in the

lab. The whole lab could blow up and I'm going

to go to prison for life."

Q. what was the purpose of the gas burner going at

Savinelli's place?

A. I mean, it was just -- they were making food,

boiling water or something. I mean, it wasn't

-- I have no idea, it was just it was in the

kitchen.

Q. Something innocuous?

A. Yes, but it -- Alfred s d it was a disaster in

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1 his opinion. He said, IIIf this is the trend,

2 I'm worried."

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. Alfred said he was sick of the pressure and he

couldn't handle the pressure anymore of having

6 that much exposure.

7 Q. Then what was the next step in the process?

8 A. Well, the lab was going to be torn down and

9 moved out of that house and theoretically we

were supposed to buy another house, and we had

11 located a house.

12 Q. Where was it?

13 A. It was in Santa Fe. But due to these extra

14 little problems that occurred t I recommended

and C said let's get out of here. And we all

16 took an airplane sometime around Thanksgiving

17 of '99 and looked at a site in Kansas.

18 Q. Who all went?

19 A. I believe it was Trace Kliphuis, myself,

Leonard and Clyde.

21 Q. Who's Trace Kliphuis?

22 A. A girlfriend-slash-wife of Leonard's, I don't

23 know the legal status.

24 Q. And that was - is she still to your knowledge

or was that a -


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1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Okay. And why corne to Kansas?

3 A. It was an unused state.

4 Q. What do you mean?

A. They had not been through here.

6 Q. "They" who?

7 A. Clyde and Leonard. They were really nervous of

8 going west, west was not good. They said that

9 there were a lot of problems. They wanted more

areas where things were desolate where they

11 could drive one -

12 MR. BENNETT: Well, Judge, I'm going

13 to object again because he's again referring to

14 the two defendants together. Again I ask the

Court instruct Mr. Hough or the jury to specify

16 who's - or to the witness to specify who he's

17 talking about.

18 THE COURT: Try to do that, please.

19 Q. (BY MR. HOUGH) In referring to "they," can you

tell us did they both or one or the other make

21 those comments?

22 A. In this case both of them, because they liked

23 desolated areas, they liked areas that they

24 could drive long distances and see if someone

was following them.


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1 Q. So when you say "they" in the context of your

2 testimony -

3 A. Clyde Apperson and William Leonard Pickard,

4 Junior

Q. And they both - these two defendants

6 communicated these things to you, correct?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Okay. Continue then.

9 A. So then we - we were supposed to go to Tulsa

and -

11 Q. Why?

12 A. Because it was Thanksgiving and I needed to

13 pick my children up in the airplane, it was a

14 private airplane, and I was going to have

Thanksgiving with my children in Topeka or I

16 was going to see them in Tulsa or something.

17 But the weather was incredibly bad, and we made

18 the decision on the runway on a cellular phone,

19 due to tornados which was unusual, at that time

it was unusual to have them that late in the

21 season in Tulsa! so we changed our destination.

22 After the flight plan had been made by the

23 pilot! we said take us to Topeka and we landed

24 in Topeka.

Q. Then what happened?

NORA LYON & ASSOCIATES! INC. 1515 S.W. Topeka Blvd., Topeka! KS 66612

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1 A. It was a rough landing, also there was bad

2 weather there, too. Then we went to Manhattan,

3 Kansas, and -

4 Q. "We" being who?

A. Trace Kliphuis, myself, William Leonard Pickard

6 and Clyde Apperson, and they stayed at

7 Q. "They" being who?

A. Clyde Apperson, Trace Kliphuis, Leonard and

9

8

maybe myself, I can't remember because I had a

place to stay. But I believe we went to the

11 Marriott or the Fairfield Inn, I think it was

12 the Fairfield Inn, and I've shown the receipts

13 to prove we were there.

~ And Leonard never went out to the base.

He left the decision to Clyde, the -- what I

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refer to the Ellsworth, Salina, or Ellsworth

17 base, which is an Atlas F, which is vertical,

18 not horizontal. And he said it's up to Clyde

19 and you, and if Clyde gives the approval, then

this is where the lab will be. We made a bet

21 because he didn't believe that there would be a

22 place that he could have a lab where he could

23 not see a neighbor. And -- and indeed that

24 effectively was all -- it turns out at night

you could see some sort of a shining light

~


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1 somewhere, so - the bet was a draw.

2 Q. Did you have -- now, you testified that during

this time you had a place to stay. Describe3

4 that.

A. It was either Kansas Missile Base, Atlas E.

6 Q. And during the time alleged in the Indictment,

7 did you own property in Kansas?

A. Well, I mean, a trust-owned property in Kansas.8

Q. Okay. And that was your trust for your

benefit.

9

11 A. No, I wasn't the beneficiary of the trust.

12 Q. Did you control the property then in Kansas?

13 A. Effectively I was in control.

14 Q. Okay. When was it you obtained the property?

A. I believe legally 196. I took possession of it

16 before we actually -- five to six months before

17 it was paid for I took possession of it.

18 Q. And that was when?

19 A. 195 late 195, 196, sometime in that area.

It was a phase-in where, you know, we were

21 moving in, the other person was moving out.

22 Q. And what was the purpose of obtaining it?

23 A. We were going to put a robotic spring factory

24 in there.

Q. And describe why you would want a robotic


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spring factory?

A. Well, first of all, lid like to -- okay. lid

like to describe why that facility would be

good for that, and then 1111 back up to that

question just because it's fresh in my mind.

Is that all right?

Q. That's fine.

A. There were three foot solid incredibly level

floors built in the horizontal bases. And the

temperature stability was amazing in them. It

took tremendous amounts of BTUs to just move

the temperature a few degrees, and this gave

for - extremely stable conditions for

manufacturing springs of which my family, going

up to my mother's side, is heavily involved

with, there's many spring companies in the

family.

Q. Gardener springs?

A. It was my mother's spring company and there's a

bunch more spring companies that are owned by

other uncles, aunts and cousins. But we were

in the process of setting the new world

standard for high precision quality springs.

We were buying these experimental robots from

Japan, and we were moving to a new grade of


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wire that was experimental that was made by

Suzuki, made by there was a German

corporation, Bird, Berg.

And any variation in temperature or

humidity would change the behavior of that

spring as it was being manufactured, so I

needed somewhere I could control. Plus in the

spring manufacturing process, a dust is thrown

off sometimes and I wanted to have air

filtration so I could meet the new OSHA

standards.

Q. What kind of springs are we talking about?

A. Mainly we were specializing at this facility in

high precision extension springs.

Q. And those have what type of a use or purpose?

A. They are for pulling. You'll see them on

windshield wipers, you'll see them on a kick

stand of a motorcycle. But this particular

plant was making them for robotic use and high

precision engine use, high precision mechanical

use where you had to have very high

predictability. You had to be very, very

accurate. The concept worked, by the way?

Q. So did the business actually operate in the

Wamego, Kansas, area?


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"-"

A. Significantly.

Q. During what period of time?

A. Well, we had a phase in to where we had it-

kind of where it was working in 196. Then in

'97 and then by '98-- '97, '98 it was heavy in

operation and it proved to be a success.

Q. And you indicated that you could stay there.

A. I had living quarters on one side of the

facility.

Q. Would you describe for the jury what this

property was and what it was like.

A. It was an Atlas E missile base, which is a

horizontal missile base, which is a very

shallow underneath-the-ground missile base,

unlike a Titan One missile base or an Atlas F

missile base. And because it's horizontal it

had a lot of square foot a lot of square foot

usable space. You could get a semi-truck in

it, you could move forklifts in and out easily

and also you had tremendous volume because you

had very high ceilings. These were very

unusual structures.

Q. Let me show you what's been caused to be marked

Government's Exhibits 1 through 6 and admitted

into evidence in this case, identified as the


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1 location in or near Wamego l Kansas l at six-

2 16795 Say Road. I will show you Government's

3 Exhibit No. 11 the intersection of Columbian

4 and Say Road. Do you recognize that general

area?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And Exhibit 21 which has been admitted into

8 evidence here and described as the entryway

9 driveway up into the property.

A. Yes l I recognize it.

11 Q. And Exhibit 6 1 finallYI which has been

12 identified as an overall view of the property.

13 Do you recognize that?

14 A. Yes.

Q. And can you describe for uS I please l what went

16 on in a business sense from the point in time

17 of the acquisition of the property I where the

18 business occurred?

19 A. Oh l yeah. Well-

Q. And and just for your benefit l you can -

21 A. Yes l I know I can touch.

22 Q. - touch l okay.

23 A. Okay. This building didn't exist. This is

24 what we refer to as the Lester Building. This

building is an original Quonset hut built by

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the military. This is the road that goes

down-- that semi-trucks and forklifts could go

up or out of. And this right here, which is

not a very clear picture, is a 40 ton door that

opens up 20 by 20 approximately. And then

underneath this shield here is a long what we

call the missile bay, and from both sides you

could have forklifts load and unload. But over

to this side here, is a huge room that was the

room that we temperature controlled stable, air

filtered and manufactured springs.

Q. Okay. Now-

A. And now I'll show you

Q. Please.

A. I may be bothering you. This area here is

where the underground loading quarters were at.

And this area here has a tunnel connecting the

two things. And there's a door here. I made a

mess of this.

Q. Okay. Now, you indicated that this building

here, the Lester Building, wasn't there at the

time. When did that get built?

A. I don't know when it got built, but basically

Gardener had said we need above-ground storage

for different items. This was originally


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1 another Quonset hut, so it's identical to the

2 the cement slab underneath it is identical

3 to the cement slab here. And I had it built, I

4 don't know when. I really was remote - this

was -- the other employees were making the

6 decisions, I just appropriated and said yes, we

7 will pay for it. And Gardener had requested

it.8

9 Q. At some point in time in the statement to Agent

Nichols, did you indicate that that Lester

11 Building was purchased with drug proceeds?

12 A. Yes, but that was a not the intent. The

13 intent was Gardener asked for it. Gardener was

14 supposed to pay for it, but Gardener moved out

and I was left with a judgment and bargaining

my way out of a problem with a building I

17

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didn't need.

18 Q. Okay.

A. And I did pay for it with drug proceeds.19

Q. Proceeds from what drug?

21 A. Well, actually - well, only proceeds from

large amounts of cash that Leonard gave me.

23

22

Q. Okay. That were generated from this LSD

24 operation?

A. I assume, I canlt make that connection on that


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because I didn't watch that, so I can't answer

yes. I assumed.

Q. And what is the basis of that assumption?

A. Well, that's where all the money came from and

you know, there was beaucoups of it, so

Q. At what point in time did the location at 16795

Say Road in Wamego stop being the spring

business?

A. It was -- it phased out in a three-month period

approximately, but really a two-month period,

let's say, in April '99. From then they

started being phased out until June, I think

everything was gone, with the exception of

there was some equipment still there up until a

year ago that was like forklifts and stuff that

belonged to Gardener. It was eventually just

given away as payment for people who didn't

receive payment for work they did at

maintaining the base.

Q. You indicated around Thanksgiving Trace

Kliphuis and you and the two defendants going

to visit the Atlas F location. And we got on

to this discussion of the Wamego property

because you indicated that you had a place to

stay and you weren't certain if you had stayed


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in the motel with them. Do you·recall that?

MR. RORK: Your Honor, again, I

object to this witness leading and suggestive

answers or testifying, he can ask him what he

did.

MR. HOUGH: Well, Judge, 11m trying

to set the foundation for the next question in

the series.

THE COURT: Overruled, go ahead.

Q. (BY MR. HOUGH) Can you

A. More importantly I can give you a better

answer. One of the nights 11m sure I stayed

there and one of the nights I don't know. I

just can't remember.

Q. Okay.

A. So one night I did go to the hotel and stay and

one night I don't know where I stayed and it

would have probably been - I mean, I would

have preferred to have stayed in Wamego than at

a hotel. It was a nicer area.

Q. Now, that trip was, you indicated, Thanksgiving

of what year, '99?

A. 99.I

Q. And tell us what all happened after Mr. Pickard

told you and Mr. Apperson to make the decision.


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1 What happened?

2 A. Clyde and I drove over to the Ellsworth site,

3 Clyde was happy. He was concerned with the

4 vertical problem which ended up being quite a

problem because he - he thought that it was

6 going to be like an Atlas E because that's

7 what, you know, he had seen.

8 And when he saw that we were talking

9 about a vertical missile base, he realized we

had some technical prob.lems to overcome. It

11 did become a point of contention and some

12 failures that I did not implement when

13 requested, I didn't get everything done

14 correctly.

Q. Such as?

16 A. I was supposed to put in a hoist and really

17 should have done it and ended up the three of

18 of us had to physically move an entire lab down

19 in there, which doesn't sound that difficult

until you realize that methylene chloride,

21 5-gallon drums, are incredibly dense, and it

22 was quite a chore moving the lab down inside of

23 this vertical missile base.

24 Q. So then ultimately, was it decided to move the

lab out of Santa Fe into this location?


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1 A. As soon as Clyde got back and told Leonard,

2 Leonard I don't even think he went to verify'-" 3 the story of Clyde's. I think he said if Clyde

4 likes it, you say it's right, go for it.

Q. Then describe for us, if you would, please, the

6 movement of the lab from Santa Fe to this area.

7 A. Okay. What happened was - was that after the

8 pack-down was done, Mike Hobbs was

9 instructed -- I'm sorry, I was instructed we

had decided to rent a house and there's many

11 numerous rental houses in the Santa Fe

12 situation of which has been a great deal of

13 confusion between my communication, the DEA and

14 everyone else so -

Q. Now, you were instructed by who to find the

16 house?

17 A. Leonard.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. Okay. And -- but I had employee houses and we

tried to keep the employees from knowing what

21 in the world was going on.

22 Q. Who are these employees?

23 A. Gunner Guinan, Amber or Indra I can't remember,

24 I believe I believe it was Amber who was a

girlfriend of Mike's, Mike Hobbs, Lupe, and


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there may have been another nanny that came and

went. And they stayed in one house, and -

Q. In Santa Fe?

A. In Santa Fe. And there was two different

houses they stayed in and both of them had a

name. One was the Delgado house which has

become a confusing item because Carl

misunderstood me and thought the Delgado house

was a house where the lab was stored. Another

house I cannot remember the name of and

everyone complained about it and they wanted

out of it. And then I, myself, Emily and

Leonard and Clyde all stayed at Las Companas in

Conseetas (spelled phonetically). And one of

the reasons we always wanted to keep Clyde and

Leonard away from the employees was the hours

were so odd and we didn't want the chance of

of them - the employees noticing something was

odd about their behavior.

Q. And what was -- how were the hours odd?

A. Well, there were long stretches of time where

synthesis where you can't walk away from the

process.

Q. And who would be involved in the synthesis?

A. In this particular one, Clyde and Leonard were


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working very hard. They were pumping

production to a new level. In fact, I think it

was the greatest production they had ever

attained, and other than some chemical company

or some pharmaceutical company, it probably is

the record production in the history of mankind

that -- that occurred at that.

Q. What was the next move then?

A. Okay. So I was instructed to get a house, and

this was a - a very expensive home and we were

going to back the trailer down and put it into

the garage.

Q. What was in the trailer?

A. The key essential items of the lab and whatever

chemicals. The unfortunate thing is I'm doing

this from hearsay, I did not look in to it.

Q. And who told you?

A. Leonard, Clyde. Clyde was explaining how they

made the mistake of misbalancing. The trailer

was bought, I believe by Gunnar Guinan in Home

Depot down in Santa Fe and brought up, and then

that was rejected and we had to go buy another

one. And we then packed that down, a larger

one, and we packed the essential items in

there. .......,


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1 Q. Who packed?

2 A. I don't know who packed, it would -- it's an

unknown to me.3

4 Q. Okay.

A. So there were some repacking that was done and

6 I was present because some -- some like

7 ventilation tubes - the last thing coming out

8 of the Santa Fe lab came at the end, and that

9 was thrown in the back of this trailer.

Q. By whom?

11 A. Leonard. And Leonard wanted Mike not to see it

12 so when it was opened up, I was the only one

13 that saw. That was the first time that I saw

14 the inside of that trailer.

Q. And who obtained that trailer?

16 A. I believe Gunnar Guinan and I believe there's

17 titles that show that he did it, receipts.

Q. And who did the driving of the trailer?18

A. Okay. Mainly Mike Hobbs.19

Q. And after it was -- well, strike that. Do you

know who moved it out of the residence in Santa21

22 Fe?

A. Oh, yes. Oh, yeah, yeah.

24

23

Q. Tell us about that.

A. I was there because it was a car caravan


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because we were worried that maybe we were hot

and we wanted to make sure that if that -- and

the bigger problem was that it was -- the -- it

was loaded wrong, the axles had too much of the

weight forward, and it was actually dragging,

and we did the best we could to get a vehicle

that could handle it. But we did still -- if

you hit a bump, and these were some pretty

weird roads we were on, it would just bounce

and it'd cause a lot of problems. We thought a

policeman could pull us over just generally on

this incredibly poorly executed loading of this

trailer.

Q. Who all was involved in that, who all was

there?

A. Mike Hobbs, myself, I can't remember if Clyde

was involved but Leonard was definitely

involved. And we moved it to the -- the

expensive house is what I refer to it as, $800

a day. At the expensive house, it was then

going to be put down into the garage and then

Grahm Logan Kendall was going to babysit it,

not ever knowing what it was, and he was just

going to do Internet work there.

Q. And how was that


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A. I'm sorry, I forgot. Graham has also been

staying at the Delgado house or one of the

homes in Santa Fe, I forgot he was there.

Q. Doing what?

A. Just enjoying life. He wanted to go on a -

you know, a trip, he likes traveling, so-

(pause)

Q. And what was your relationship to him?

A. Graham was a tutor of mine in physics and math,

sciences across the board starting around age

13.

Q. Okay. And what was your relationship to Mr.

Hobbs, Mr. Guinan and Mr. Lupe?

A. Mr. Hobbs had to work at Gardener and then when

and well, actually Gunnar and Hobbs

worked at Gardener and stayed with me when I

left Gardener. Lupe never worked for Gardener,

he always worked for the land trust or myself.

Q. And then how did you all get to Santa Fe?

A. Oh, we went there on our vacation is what the

employees were told, and they would be given

little instruction sheets of "go by this and

that." They had no clue what they were doing,

they had no - there wasn't any suspicion in

their mind. Lupe was the only one who


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1 accidentally had a suspicion. And I don't know

2 what he -- I didn't know until long after how

3 bad that situation was for him, but -- and then

4 the -- and then we were -- we were on a

vacation ostensibly, you know, to get away from

6 this long, hard project of finishing Wamego up,

7 and so it was a bonus and -- but really what

8 was going on behind the scenes was a tear down

of a lab.9

Q. Okay.

11 A. And we also liked to use this -- this turned

12 out, we felt so hot that

13 Q. What do you mean by feeling hot?

'...... A. It means that the Government may have been on

to us from any number of angles, that we were

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sending off decoy - we were doing decoy work.

17 Q. Describe that.

18 A. Decoy work means you send a truck and it's

19 suspicious and it leaves and you try to get a

number of red flags to go off, and if you don't

21 get pulled over, you're not being watched, and

22 we did a lot of decoy. I was doing an

23 incredible amount of decoy work for that

24 operation to be moved. I was the most nervous

of anyone with that operation.


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Q. And who was ordering the decoy work occur?

A. Myself.

Q. And did you do that unilaterally or in

consultation with anyone else?

A. I mean, I told Leonard, "I'm doing everything

can to make sure we're not having a serious

problem here." But I was - I was basically

unilaterally doing it, and this went on for

months, this decoy work went on for months. I

was very nervous about this.

Q. And once the LSD was made, where did it go,

what happened to it?

A. Well, this is an odd story. Normally I didn't

- I mean I knew it went up to Denver, I knew

that it went to Petaluma.

Q. Petaluma?

A. California.

Q. Okay.

A. And the buyer was Petaluma Al and went up

there. But there was a lot of sophisticated

routes that it took, there was a specific car

that it took, and the traditional thing was it

went to Denver so they wouldn't know -

Q. "They" being who?

A. The -- the -- the transporters and the -- the


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1 buyer, Petaluma AI, wouldn't know where the lab

2 was, because if a burning carne up- burning

3 meaning a bust carne up backwards from the

4 distribution system, we didn't want a situation

of where they say the lab is in this state or

6 in this city, because that would be too much.

7 We wanted to keep some confusion there. So

8 traditionally the crystalline form of LSD or

9 powder form or this particular end product

form, which we're not talking blotter paper or

11 any of that stuff, we're talking about - or

12 liquid, we're talking concentrated LSD was

13 made, nearly pure not nearly pure, above 70

"-,,,. 14 percent, would go in these vials and they would

go in this specific thing, and Denver was

16 normally the transporter. And if you look, the

17 labs are all not far from Denver, and Denver

18 was a - and I'm - I'm doing some guesswork,

19 I'm interpolating

Q. Don't guess.

21 A. Well, what I mean by guessing is I'm saying

22 that I believe Denver could - and Boulder

23 could have been - but it was somewhere in that

24 area, was the normal distribution spot. But

during this Santa Fe breakdown, since the lab




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1 was moving, Petaluma Al actually knew that

2 there was a kilo or more of LSD in Santa Fe.

3 The reason I know that is direct

4 information because he somehow - I went to

pick up $300,000 or something from him and he

6 said I've got a -

7 MR. BENNETT: Judge, I'm going to

8 object to what Petaluma Al said.

9 MR. HOUGH: the witness has

identified Petaluma Al as a distributor of

11 their end product, thus a co-conspirator, thus

12 a co-conspirator statement.

13 MR. RORK: Well, Judge, if they would

14 produce Petaluma AI, whatever it is, and

again- it's the first time we've ever heard of

16 it, we would like to have him here to cross

17 examine.

18 MR. HOUGH: Co-conspirator statement,

19 Judge, it's admissible.

THE COURT: I agree. Go ahead.

21 Q. (BY MR. HOUGH) Continue.

22 A. Petaluma Al was - was out of normal behavior,

23 because he said, I've "got to have a phone

24 number for you." When I picked up and I'm

going to guess it was $300,000 in cash, he


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1 said, "We cannot find the LSD in the area that

2 Leonard told us it was and Leonard is in'- 3 Europe." So I had a problem because I didn't

4 have a cell phone that I thought was clean, and

I really broke with tight protocol and I gave

6 him my girlfriend's actual land line, which was

7 a major breach of security. And it was only

8 because I told him, I said, "You're hard of

9 hearing," I said, "you just tell me to corne up

and visit you, I don't want any conversation on

11 this phone."

12 Q. Did you -- during the course of your

13 involvement with Mr. Apperson and Pickard learn

14 the name of Petaluma AI?

A. Just Petaluma AI.

16 Q. Okay. And you talked about security measures.

17 A. I'm sorry. I referred to him as Petaluma AI.

18 Leonard referred to him as AI. I have to be

19 very succinct here or very exact. I've never

heard Clyde refer to AI.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. I have to be fair.

23 Q. Now, you talked about security measures and a

24 breach of security. Describe for the jury, if

you will, the security measures that were in

~


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1 place within this conspiracy with the

2 defendants?

3 A. Yes, we had phone systems that continually

4 rolled. We bought cell phones and we were so

paranoid, for good reason, we were so nervous

6 that we used calling cards on top of very

7 expensive prepaid phones. We had very

8 elaborate methods for - now all of this is kind

9 of a joke because you can go get them easy, but

at the time this was a little more difficult.

11 We had ways of accumulating lots of cell phones

12 under fictitious names without ever showing ID.

13 And we spent a great deal of money, it was not

~ 14 unusual for us to spend two bucks a minute on a

phone call and then we would use a credit card

16 that was a disposable calling card and that

17 expense and then as soon as that five-- we

18 always bought the -- we -- early on when we

19 were making mistakes, we said it was cheaper to

buy a hundred dollar card. Then we realized

21 we were leaving a trail, so we went down to

22 buying five dollar cards, made one phone call

23 and it was destroyed. We completely

24 implemented very tight phone communications,

and then there was a level of securities within


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the phone systems themselves and -

Q. Such as?

A. The - the highest level of security would be

this person has a phone that can only call this

person and no other contamination could go on.

And then you drop on down to where you just

have a burn phone where you'd call anywhere and

you'd just throw that phone away. And we had

some elaborate techniques where we would give

phones away to homeless people so if the DEA

got on to this, they'd find a bunch of trivial

phone calls, and we loved giving the phones

down to -- not to -- I'm not being mean, but to

Mexicans, because that really would throw off

because it would look like some sort of weird

marijuana drug conspiracy nonsensical phone and

we'd have like $100 left.

Q. "We" is who?

A. "We" being well, I mainly gave the phones

away.

Q. To whom?

A. To I would tell Mike go get rid of phones, I

would tell Gunnar go get rid of phones. They

never questioned why we got rid of phones.

Q. And who was it that had these secure phones?


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A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Well, there was a very elaborate coding system

and each - each of us had symbols so we would

know because we had so many of these phones, we

didn't know whose phone was what so we had

symbols.

"We" is who?

Clyde Apperson, myself, Leonard and then -- and

then the employees would have a lower level of

security phones. And then amongst ourselves

there would be very high level phones and then

there would be phones that were emergency

phones that were one time use only.

And what types of things would be discussed on

these emergency phones one time?

That would be the -- I'll be polite here, we

have a serious problem and it is time to leave

the country or to dismantel and flee.

Does that ever occur?

I've had some pretty serious phone calls

that

From who?

Leonard.

D~scribe them for us.

There was a money bust and -- at the Kansas

City Airport and

~


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1 Q. And tell us when that occurred and who was

involved and what happened.~ 2

3 A. Okay. It was - okay. Natasha Kruglova

4 Q. And who is Natasha Kruglova?

A. She we originally met her as a front desk

6 person that worked at the Pan Pacific Hotel,

7 which was one of our alternative favorite

8 hotels where we stayed in the penthouses and

9 took the top floor. And she became a

girlfriend of Leonard's, and she, I believe, is

11 his legal wife, but I don't know, but they have

12 a child. Natasha needed school money and

13 Q. School money for where?

14 A. UCA - UC and Berkeley. And there was $27,000

that somehow at the airport got busted, I have

no idea. The story to this day makes no sense16

17 to me.

Q. Do you know how she got the $27,OOO?18

A. Well, I can tell you a little bit about it. I

have not seen 20,000 of the 27,000, but I can

19

21 give you a pretty good idea. It happens to be

22 that I had to run through Vegas and I had gone

23 to the Horseshoe l Bailey's Horseshoe. It was

24 an odd situation because I put some money up-

I won very rapidly some money and when I got


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paid, it was the first time I've ever been paid

by a casino where the money looked like it had

just been printed, and every bill was

serializing, you had to literally yank the

bills apart. And I gave $20,000 of that money

to Leonard when I got to Kansas.

Q. Why?

A. He lowed him the money or something. And

he needed it for her. And I definitely owed

him the money, there was no doubt about that.

There was some rental money that had been

fronted to me in the rental deal imploding

(sic) because the rental person that was going

to be the cutout wouldn't sign the document,

she had an argument with me. And so lowed the

money to Leonard.

Q. What time, what period of time?

A. When the money was given, when I gave the

20,000 fresh dollar bills?

Q. Dh-huh.

A. $100 bills. Sometime February of 2000, January

of 2000.

Q. Okay.

A. Sorry, you know, it's the best I can do.

Q. Okay. And then when was the bust of Ms.


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Kruglova?

A. No, that's what I mean. The bust occurred, I

thought, in February of

Q. Okay.

A. -- of 2000. That's my best guess.

Q. And it was in -- when in relation to you giving

the money to Leonard?

A. Oh, I mean, I gave the money to Leonard and a

day or two later she was busted.

Q. Okay. What was she doing -

A. The other $7,000 I was told was from the

conversion of thousand Guilder notes.

Q. Who told you that?

A. Leonard. And then I had to question both of

them very carefully because

Q. "Both of them" being whom?

A. Natasha and Leonard. I was in damage control

mode at that point. He turned the whole

problem over to me and I was - there was a DEA

agent name given to me. I started

investigating the situation. I had to know,

was he seen. I had to start doing damage

control. It's one of the most shook-up times

I've ever seen Leonard. I was surprised he was

that nervous over that event.


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Q. Who?

A. Leonard.

MR. RORK: Excuse me, Your Honor, I

object to this phrase he keeps saying, busted.

And it's Ms. - improperly misstates a fact not

in evidence and ask the witness not be allowed

to continue making statements with reference

to, quote, a bust which somebody got arrested

which didn't happen. So I ask that he not

misstate the evidence or facts not in evidence.

THE WITNESS: I will be more exact.

MR. HOUGH: Judge, my understanding

of the testimony was that his communication and

understanding of the situation from Mr. Rork's

client was that Ms. Kruglova got busted. That

was my understanding of the testimony.

MR. RORK: Judge, it may be his

understanding but it's not something this

witness has stated.

THE WITNESS: I will be more exact,

because I have made a mistake.

Q. (BY MR. HOUGH) Can you clarify that for us.

A. The money was confiscated, she was not

arrested.

Q. Okay. And in your conversations with Mr.


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Pickard, did either of the two of you refer to

it as a money bust?

A. Yes, of course.

Q. Okay.

A. And -- and we went to -- we went to high-burn

security status. He buried himself into the

Wamego site, vehicle transfers occurred, Gunnar

Guinan went and rented a vehicle for him to get

back out of there. We had to see how much

blow-back was going to occur from this. And we

started digging in. I was willing to take the

up front position of claiming the money. I was

I was positioning ourselves for this, even

though it was going to be a high-risk

probability, there was an unusual circumstance.

This turned out not to be drug money, the

20,000, and I could prove right where it came

from, and I was willing to go claim the money.

And we talked it over and some legal

confrontation or some legal advice was given

and we thought it through and we said forget

it. The reason was not to recover, the 27,000

was nothing, I'm sorry to say that, but that

was nothing. It was to get her name cleaned

up.


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Q. And why was that important?

A. Because she was from the Ukraine, she was a

student, she was over on - got a lottery Visa.

We did not want her to be deported. He was

very fond of her and he wanted a great deal of

damage control.

Q. "He" is who?

A. Leonard Pickard wanted a great deal of damage

control done, and I was willing to do whatever,

although I said -- I said, "Given all the rest

of the problems that we have, this is foolish

because the worst that could happen to her is

some minor thing." I said, "The worst that

could happen to us is a total explosion on this

thing."

Q. What problems were you having at that time that

you were talking about?

A. Well, I -- if you could - I need some help on

the date so I can -- if you can give me the

actual date the money was confiscated, then I

can tell you just how many problems I was

having.

MR. BENNETT: Well, now, Judge, I'm

going to object to the prosecutor providing

information to this witness so this witness can


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then answer the prosecutor's questions.

2 THE COURT: Well-

3 MR. HOUGH: Judge -

4 THE COURT: - see if we can show

see if we can find the date some legitimate

6 way.

7 MR. RORK: Your Honor, he's entitled

8 to refresh his recollection and look at some

9 documents or identify some document, but just

for him to say what it is or provide it, that's

11 absolutely contrary to the rules.

12 MR. HOUGH: Judge, the witness had

13 asked me that question. I had not responded to

14 it so the objections are premature. May I

proceed to question him, please?

16 THE COURT: Yes, you may.

17 MR. RORK: Well, Judge, I object that

18 it's-- asking questions is an improper way to

19 refresh recollection, he said he doesn't know.

He can be shown something to help him refresh

21 his recollection, but he can't be told

22 something, so I object, it's a violation of

23 Rule 612.

24 THE COURT: Overruled, go ahead.

Q. (BY MR. HOUGH) Within the context of what your


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memory will allow as you sit here, can you

describe for us, please, the events that were

going on approximately simultaneously with the

bust that you recall?

A. Well, I know that I had a problem with the

Secret Service, okay? That I'm for sure about.

Q. And we discussed that earlier.

A. A little bit, yeah. We didn't -- I knew I had

that problem. What I'm not remembering is had

a suicide been committed. That's my problem

here.

Q. Okay.

A. I do not think a suicide had been committed,

and -- but I just

Q. You've referring to Tim Schwartz?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, we'll get more fully to that

A. Great.

Q. -- a little later on. So during the period of

time that the money bust occurred, did you ever

recoup that money or -- or what happened

what was your, Mr. Pickard and Mr. Apperson's

next move?

A. Well, we watched - I got clear that Leonard

had not been seen with her, that she had


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1 correctly - although the DEA in later

'-"' 2 questioning, a different DEA group that was

3 involved with this, asked me some strange

4 questions. I'm still to this day concerned

what she said, but I wasn't at the time because

6 I had no reason to be suspicious of what she

7 said. I - from everything that I could gather

8 after a week, I had determined we didn't have a

9 serious problem.

Q. Okay. So what happened, then, next in the

11 chronology?

12 A. Well, basically Leonard then got a new

13 four wheel drive vehicle, he would only take

14 four wheel drive vehicles because he got stuck

in the mud once in a two-wheel and that was a

16 disaster and happened to Mike and Gunnar and

17 Lupe and so it's a reality situation. It used

18 to happen to everyone that went out to that

19 Ellsworth base except for me, I'm the only one

that never got stuck in the mud.

21 So he, after he had ducked in and was

22 fighting in the Wamego site, decided it was

23 s e to leave, left one night and went to

24 Ellsworth, I assume.

Q. Did he tell you that's where he was headed?


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1 A. I think so.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. It makes sense. And he went to the lab and we

4 watched and we saw no problems.

Q. Okay.

6 MR. HOUGH: Your Honor, it's 4:30,

7 this may be an appropriate time to break for

8 the day.

9 THE COURT: Yes, I think this would

be a good time to break for the day. Ladies

11 and gentlemen, let's take our break at this

12 time. And we'll adjourn until 9:30 in the

13 morning and we'll see you here at that time.

Mr. Bailiff, let's recess the Court. Remember

my admonitions.

16

14

(THEREUPON, a recess was had after

17 which the following proceedings were held at

18 the bench and outside of the hearing of the

19 jury) .

MR. RORK: Judge, I would just note

21 for the record, when we took the last break,

22 Mr. Skinner visited with Mr. Hough and Mr.

23 Nichols for the most part talking about things,

24 and I would just ask again that the case agents

not be allowed to discuss their testimony with ."-'


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.~

this witness tonight during the break and not

be allowed to go over what the questions are

going to be asked tomorrow and that like the

witnesses aren't allowed to be vouched for,

they're not allowed to be gone over what the

testimony would be. And I would just ask that

they not meet and go over the questions.

MR. HOUGH: Judge, this circumstance

is no different than any other circumstance

we've ever had in any trial relative to the

relationship between the case agent and this

witness or any other witness. There's nothing

unusual. The Court's addressed it, the Court's

ruled. And at this point the objection should

be overruled and denied and reaffirm your prior

orders.

THE COURT: Yeah, I issued a written

order on this and that will take care of it and

I will stay with that.

MR. BENNETT: Judge, while we're

here, can we get an idea of how long Mr. Hough

thinks he's going to be tomorrow so we can kind

of prepare?

MR. HOUGH: Do you want the

(reporter interruption).


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..........

MR. BENNETT: 11m serious.

MR. HOUGH: Prepare what?

MR. BENNETT: 11m asking a serious

question.

MR. HOUGH: To prepare what?

MR. BENNETT: To prepare the cross

examination.

MR. HOUGH: I plan to be all day

tomorrow with this witness.

MR. BENNETT: Very simple.

{THEREUPON, the proceedings were

adjourned until January 29, 2003,

NORA LYON & ASSOCIATES, INC. 1515 S.W. Topeka Blvd.! Topeka! KS 66612

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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. ss:

DISTRICT OF KANSAS

C E R T I F I CAT E

I, KELLI STEWART, Certified Shorthand

Reporter in and for the State of Kansas, do

hereby certify that I was present at and

reported in machine shorthand the proceedings

had the 28th day of January, 2003, in the

above-mentioned courti that the foregoing

transcript is a true, correct, and complete

transcript of the requested proceedings.

I further certify that I am not attorney

for, nor employed by, nor related to any of the

parties or attorneys in this action, nor

financially interested in the action.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set

my hand and official seal at Topeka, Kansas,

C-;..pthis '::..L day of 1=~, 2003.

KELLI STEWART

Certified Shorthand Reporter


Phone: (785) 232-2545 FAX: (785) 232-2720


trial testimony in william pickard lsd lab trial

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