united states v. bin laden - day 12 transcript

7/27/2019 United States v. Bin Laden - Day 12 Transcript

1/157

1 March 2001 (Received 15 hours later than usual.)

Source: Digital file from the Court Reporters Office, Southern District of New York; (212) 805-

0300.

This is the transcript of Day 12 of the trial, February 28, 2001.

See other transcripts:http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htm

ascii enclosed

1635

12skbin1

1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK

2 ------------------------------x

3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

4 v. S(7) 98 Cr. 1023

5 USAMA BIN LADEN, et al.,

6 Defendants.

7 ------------------------------x

8

New York, N.Y.

9 February 28, 2001

9:50 a.m.

10

11

12 Before:

13 HON. LEONARD B. SAND,

14 District Judge

15

16

17

18

19

20

21
http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htmhttp://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htmhttp://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htmhttp://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htm


2/157

22

23

24

25

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300

1636

12skbin1

1 APPEARANCES

2 MARY JO WHITE

United States Attorney for the

3 Southern District of New York

BY: PATRICK FITZGERALD4 KENNETH KARAS

PAUL BUTLER

5 Assistant United States Attorneys

6

ANTHONY L. RICCO

7 EDWARD D. WILFORD

CARL J. HERMAN

8 SANDRA A. BABCOCK

Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Sadeek Odeh

9

FREDRICK H. COHN

10 DAVID P. BAUGH

LAURA GASIOROWSKI

11 Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-'Owhali

12 DAVID STERN

DAVID RUHNKE

13 Attorneys for defendant Khalfan Khamis Mohamed

14

SAM A. SCHMIDT

15 JOSHUA DRATEL

KRISTIAN K. LARSEN

16 Attorneys for defendant Wadih El Hage

17

18

19

20

21


3/157

22

23

24

25


1637

12skbin1

1 (Trial resumed)

2 (Jury not present)

3 THE COURT: Are there any matters which require the

4 court's attention prior to the entry of the jury?

5 MR. SCHMIDT: Just one issue while we are here now I

6 guess I can raise so we don't delay later.

7 THE COURT: Yes.

8 MR. SCHMIDT: The government has given me some

9 documents relating to the computer expert. I spoke to the

10 computer expert. He wanted to get them done today because he

11 has been on vacation. I received a cover document relating to

12 a particular document coming out of the computer --

13 THE COURT: Can we have silence in the courtroom,

14 please.

15 MR. SCHMIDT: I received the document itself that was

16 taken out of the computer but it was not identified in the

17 manner it was previously identified, by Bates numbers. The

18 items that are in Arabic, I have to figure out which document

19 it is and locate the document before I can even begin to

20 examine this witness, a delay that shouldn't be necessary, and

21 I have to wait for Mr. Karas to identify which particular

22 document it is. I want to note that if there is a delay in


4/157

23 the next witness it is a result of the unfortunate manner in

24 which the documents have been marked, or not marked.

25 MR. FITZGERALD: I would rather have Mr. Karas


1638

12skbin1

1 address it. Mr. Schmidt wants creation dates of the

2 documents. The expert has been on vacation and sitting in our

3 office through the night to translate the Arabic entries and

4 get things to Mr. Schmidt as soon as possible. Mr. Karas is

5 dealing with those issues and we will try and expedite it. It

6 is not for lack of effort.

7 THE COURT: It seems there is nothing I can do about

8 it. If that occasions a request for some deferral of

9 examination or continuance, I will deal with it.

10 We are awaiting the defendants. The witness may

11 resume the stand.

12 MR. FITZGERALD: There is one item I should make sure

13 while counsel for Odeh and Mr. Schmidt are here. We agreed to

14 do Bruton redactions regarding the Odeh statement. The

15 written statement, we actually took out more than we agreed to

16 do. The only thing I want to make sure --

17 THE COURT: May we please have quiet in the

18 courtroom.

19 MR. FITZGERALD: The defendant Odeh stated that he

20 was aware that the home of Wadih El Hage was searched and that

21 the name of the person who was present was searched, which was

22 not Mr. El Hage. What I simply seek to elicit from Agent


5/157

23 Anticev was that Odeh was aware that a house was searched in

24 Nairobi and the person present was Mohamed Karama.

25 MR. SCHMIDT: I have no objection to that.


1639

12skbin1

1 MR. FITZGERALD: And I will lead in that area to make

2 sure.

3 MR. SCHMIDT: And I will try not to object.

4 THE COURT: I was supposed to be advised this morning

5 whether there was any objection to the in limine application

6 made by the government with respect to the examination of

7 Ambassador Bushnell. Does anybody quarrel with the

8 government's position on that matter?

9 Silence is acquiescence. Very well then.

10 MR. RICCO: Your Honor, we need to see you at

11 sometime during the morning break. It's not urgent.

12 JOHN MICHAEL ANTICEV, resumed.

13 (Jury present)

14 THE COURT: Good morning.

15 JURORS: Good morning.

16 THE COURT: Agent Anticev, the court reminds you you

17 are still under oath.

18 Mr. Fitzgerald, you may continue.

19 MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Judge.

20 (Continued on next page)

21

22

23


6/157

24

25


1640

12skbin1

Anticev - direct

1 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)

2 BY MR. FITZGERALD:

3 Q. Good morning, Agent Anticev.

4 A. Good morning.

5 Q. When we broke yesterday, you described what Odeh told you

6 about his understanding of the bayat he gave. Did Odeh tell

7 you when it was he made a pledge of bayat?

8 A. I believe it was in March of '92.

9 Q. Did he indicate where he did that?

10 A. I believe in Peshawar.

11 Q. In Peshawar, Pakistan?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did Odeh indicate what he did after he made the pledge of

14 bayat?

15 A. After he took the pledge to Al Qaeda, he went back to the

16 Jihad Wal camp for just a couple days to get reassigned, and

17 then from there he went back to the Farouq camp. Because he

18 had medical training he went back there to be a medic for a

19 couple of months.

20 Q. Do you recall approximately what months it was that he

21 would have begun serving as a medic in the Farouq camp?

22 A. April, May '92.

23 Q. Did he indicate what he did after he served as a medic at


7/157

24 the Farouq camp?

25 A. After the Farouq camp, he went on to another training


1641

12skbin1

Anticev - direct

1 camp, called the Sadeek camp, where he took a course in

2 explosives.

3 Q. Did he indicate what he learned during the course in

4 explosives?

5 A. He learned the more complicated aspects of explosives. He

6 had a trainer there, Abu Ubaidah, that taught him mathematical

7 formulas, the type of explosives to use, how much explosives

8 would be needed to do a certain job. And I believe he was

9 also at the camp with another instructor, was somebody named

10 Abdel Rahman, and another student with him was Ahmed the

11 Egyptian.

12 Q. Did he indicate the Abu Ubaidah who was his trainer, was

13 that the same person who was Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri, or a

14 different Abu Ubaidah?

15 A. It's a different Abu Ubaidah.

16 Q. Did he indicate what he did after he took this course in

17 explosives at the Sadeek camp?

18 A. Yes. I believe the course lasted 45 days, and then after

19 that he went to get some medical treatment for problems he was

20 having.

21 Q. Did he indicate where he went to get the medical

22 treatment?

23 A. He did. I forget where he went, but I think he recovered

24 in Peshawar.


8/157

25 Q. Did he indicate what he did after he recovered from the


1642

12skbin1

Anticev - direct

1 medical treatment?

2 A. After he recovered from the medical treatment he went back

3 to the Bait al Ansar, that house of support where he

4 originally came to when he came to Peshawar, to look for his

5 passport that he had left there and some personal items, and

6 that house of support was closed because the war in

7 Afghanistan was winding down, and he had to go search for his

8 documents so he wound up going to a different house of

9 support.

10 Q. Did he tell you what happened when he went to the other

11 house looking for his documents?

12 A. Yes. The other house, I think, was called Bait al

13 Umameen. When he went there, he was found by one of his

14 instructors, Abu Thomama. And then Abu Thomama told him that

15 he had to go see an important Al Qaeda leader named Adel.

16 Q. Did he go see this person? Did Odeh tell you that he went

17 to see this person that Abu Ubaidah told him to go see?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you know what Adel's full name was?

20 A. Saif al Adel.

21 Q. What happened when he went to see Saif al Adel?

22 A. Saif al Adel told him that the war in Afghanistan was

23 winding down and that they were going to move the jihad to

24 other parts of the world, and he wanted him to go to Somalia


9/157

25 via Kenya.


1643

12skbin1

Anticev - direct

1 Q. Did Odeh indicate what he did after this conversation?

2 Let me strike that.

3 Did Saif al Adel tell Odeh where those instructions

4 were coming from?

5 A. Yes, he told him they were coming from Usama Bin Laden.

6 Q. Did Odeh tell you what he did after he received those

7 instructions?

8 A. Yes. Later on he went by plane from Pakistan to Nairobi.

9 Q. Did he tell you approximately what month and what year it

10 was that he went from Pakistan to Nairobi?

11 A. March of '93.

12 Q. Did he indicate how long he stayed in Nairobi?

13 A. He said he stayed in Nairobi for two weeks, and when he

14 got there the first night he stayed at the Ambassador Hotel,

15 and then he spent the next two weeks -- the rest of the two

16 weeks with another Al Qaeda member.

17 Q. Do you remember the name of the Al Qaeda member that he

18 spent the two weeks with?

19 A. It escapes me now but I believe he was from Oman.

20 Q. What did Odeh tell you he did after those two weeks in

21 Nairobi?

22 A. He tried -- so he was ordered to go to Somalia, so he had

23 to try to get to Somalia, but he didn't have the proper

24 documents to get to Somalia. So he was able to find his way

25 on to a small airplane that's used in that region to


10/157


1644

12skbin1

Anticev - direct

1 smuggle -- it's a mild narcotic that the local people chew

2 called khat, or khat, and he was able to hitch a ride on that

3 plane to the Kenyan/Somali border, but he remained on the

4 Kenyan side of the border.

5 Q. Did Odeh tell you what happened when he got to that part

6 of Kenya near the Somali border?

7 A. He was told to wait for somebody to come and pick him up

8 there.

9 Q. Did he indicate whether somebody ever came and picked him

10 up?

11 A. Yes, he was picked up and brought across the border into

12 the Somalia to the town of Belahawa.

13 Q. Did Odeh indicate what he did in Somalia?

14 A. His job in Somalia was to train one of the tribes that was

15 in Somalia. It was one of 17 tribes, and they picked one

16 particular tribe at that time called the Um Rehan tribe, to

17 give training and other additional support such as food and

18 medical treatments.

19 Q. For the Um Rehan tribe, did Odeh indicate what type of

20 training he provided to them?

21 A. He provided them training in small arms and medical

22 treatments.

23 Q. Did Odeh indicate why it was that that tribe, the Um Rehan

24 tribe, was picked to receive this training?

25 A. That was picked by Bin Laden's group because it had the


11/157


1645

12skbin1

Anticev - direct

1 closest philosophical ties to Al Qaeda.

2 Q. Did Odeh indicate whether the Um Rehan tribe had links to

3 any other group?

4 A. Yes, it had links to another group called Ittihad

5 Islamiya, which I think is Islamic Unity, translation.

6 Q. Did Odeh indicate how long he spent in that area training

7 people with the Um Rehan tribe?

8 A. Approximately seven months.

9 Q. Did he tell you how far the area he was located in was

10 from the area of Somalia, the city in Somalia called

11 Mogadishu?

12 A. He said it was 600 kilometers.

13 Q. Did Odeh indicate what it was his understanding was of the

14 attitude of the tribes toward United Nations presence in

15 Somalia?

16 A. Yes. He said that the tribes were very upset that the UN

17 was in that area. They felt that they were controlling the

18 area. They were afraid that if they accepted aid from the

19 United Nations, that they would have to give up their arms in

20 exchange for this aid.

21 Q. Did Odeh indicate what the position of Al Qaeda was

22 regarding United Nations and United States troops being in

23 Somalia?

24 A. The position of Al Qaeda regarding unarmed civilian aid

25 workers just providing aid, that it was OK, but as far as


12/157


1646

12skbin1

Anticev - direct

1 armed US troops being in Somalia, Al Qaeda thought that this

2 was not good, that it was wrong, and they considered it

3 colonization.

4 Q. Did Odeh indicate whether or not Al Qaeda would support

5 attacks on civilian workers from the UN in Somalia?

6 A. He stated that they wouldn't support attacks on civilian

7 workers but would support attacks on soldiers.

8 Q. During the time that he was in that area, did Odeh

9 indicate whether or not he received any training himself?

10 A. Yes. While they were there, him and the other trainers

11 brushed up on their own skills in fighting.

12 Q. Did Odeh discuss a person by the name of Abu Hafs?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What did Odeh tell you about Abu Hafs?

15 A. He said while he was there an individual, Abu Hafs, who he

16 describes as a major leader in Al Qaeda, who served with Bin

17 Laden from the very beginning and has been with him since the

18 early times in Afghanistan, was coming down from Mogadishu,

19 and he had four other trainers with him.

20 Q. Did Odeh indicate what nationality Abu Hafs was?

21 A. Egyptian.

22 Q. Did Odeh say whether or not he ever knew Abu Hafs or had

23 seen him before he saw him in Somalia?

24 A. Yes, he had seen him in Afghanistan.

25 Q. Do you recall the names of any of the trainers that Odeh



13/157

1647

12skbin1

Anticev - direct

1 told you were with Abu Hafs in Somalia?

2 A. Yes. One person was named Khalid. He is also known as

3 Abu Jihad and also known as Mustafa. And the second person

4 was a person named Shuaib, who was also known as Abu Islam and

5 also known as Ahmed the Egyptian. I think the third person

6 was Irkima, and the fourth person was another person, I

7 believe from either Oman or Morocco.

8 Q. Did Odeh indicate to you what his understanding was of why

9 Abu Hafs was in Somalia, what he was doing there or where he

10 was coming from?

11 A. Abu Hafs was sent to Somalia by Usama Bin Laden to not

12 only assist the situation but to make contact with some of the

13 tribal chiefs in Mogadishu and around Somalia also.

14 Q. Did Odeh indicate what was going on in Mogadishu at that

15 time?

16 A. Yes. They were, that person Aideed's tribe, and another

17 tribe were not only fighting amongst each other, they were

18 fighting against the UN and the US troops there were there.

19 Q. Did Odeh indicate who it was that Abu Hafs met with?

20 A. Yes. He met with a person named either Ahmed or Mohamed

21 Sahal.

22 Q. Did he indicate whether or not he met anyone from Aideed's

23 tribe?

24 A. Yes, he did.

25 Q. Do you know if he met with Aideed or someone in his tribe?


1648


14/157

12skbin1

Anticev - direct

1 A. It's not exactly clear, the way it was explained.

2 Q. Did Odeh indicate what the outcome was of the meeting that

3 Abu Hafs had with these people in Mogadishu?

4 A. Yes, Abu Hafs said that he was going to support them in

5 their fight against US troops and he said they will support

6 them militarily and to kick out the United States by military

7 force.

8 Q. Did Odeh indicate to you how it was that Abu Hafs got to

9 Mogadishu, how he traveled there?

10 A. He went to Mogadishu disguised as a businessman. I don't

11 know the motive of how he got there.

12 Q. Did he tell you when it was that he saw Abu Hafs, what

13 month, do you recall, and what year, that he saw Abu Hafs on

14 his way back to Mogadishu?

15 A. I believe it was November of '93.

16 Q. Did he indicate whether or not Abu Hafs met with anybody

17 else while he was in Somalia, any other leaders?

18 A. Sorry?

19 Q. Whether Abu Hafs met with any other Somali leaders while

20 he was in Somalia at that time?

21 A. I believe a person named Ali Mani.

22 Q. What happened to the four trainers that came with Abu

23 Hafs?

24 A. They went to the Ogden region, to work with the Ogden

25 tribe in Somalia.


1649

12skbin1


15/157

Anticev - direct

1 Q. Did Odeh indicate why the four trainers who were with Abu

2 Hafs went to the Ogaden region?

3 A. They went there to train other Somalis.

4 Q. Did he indicate who it was that the Somalis being trained

5 were led by, who their leader was?

6 A. Sheik Hassan.

7 Q. Did Odeh indicate who Sheik Hassan was?

8 A. He was a leader of that Somali tribe.

9 Q. Did Odeh indicate what he did when these four trainers

10 went to Ogden to train these Somali people?

11 A. He also partook in the training. He was one of the

12 trainers that went there.

13 Q. Do you happen to recall the name of the place he said that

14 he and the four trainers went to in Somalia or the Ogden

15 region to train? If you don't know --

16 A. I do know it, but I just can't recall it right now.

17 Q. Did Odeh indicate whether there came a time when he left

18 Somalia and moved to Kenya?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you recall approximately when that was?

21 A. I believe it was in August of '94.

22 Q. Did he indicate whether he left Somalia and went to Kenya

23 alone or with someone else?

24 A. He left Somalia with that person Ahmed the Egyptian who I

25 described before as Abu Islam and Shuaib.


1650

12skbin1

Anticev - direct


16/157

1 Q. Did he indicate where he went in Kenya?

2 A. They went to the coastal city of Mombasa.

3 Q. Did he indicate what he did, what he and Ahmed the

4 Egyptian or Shuaib did when they got to Mombasa?

5 A. They rented a house.

6 Q. What happened after that?

7 A. He talked about him and Ahmed wanted to get married and

8 settle over there, and said that Ahmed wound up getting

9 married two months later.

10 Q. Did Odeh indicate whether he got married?

11 A. He did, but after that.

12 Q. Did he indicate how he met his wife?

13 A. Yes. He was introduced to his wife through his friend

14 Mustafa.

15 Q. Is that the same Mustafa you mentioned --

16 A. Yes, Khalid.

17 Q. Did Odeh tell you Mustafa's last name?

18 A. Fadhl, I believe.

19 Q. What did Odeh tell you about Mustafa Fadhl, what

20 nationality he was and whether or not he was a member of Al

21 Qaeda?

22 A. He was a member of Al Qaeda. He took bayat long before

23 him. He first met Mustafa, I think, in the Jihad Wal camp

24 back in '92 while he was getting his second phase of training.

25 Q. Did he indicate what country Mustafa was from, what his


1651

12skbin1

Anticev - direct


17/157

1 nationality was?

2 A. I think he's Egyptian.

3 Q. Did Odeh indicate whether Mustafa ever worked anyplace

4 outside of Kenya, the Kenya, Tanzania area, following 1994?

5 A. Yes. He worked in a business, an import export business

6 with another person, Fahad.

7 Q. Where was that import expert business located?

8 A. He spent a lot of time in Dar es Salaam.

9 Q. Did Odeh ever indicate whether Mustafa Fadhl ever worked

10 in the Sudan?

11 A. Yes, he did.

12 Q. Did he indicate what type of work he did in the Sudan?

13 A. He worked with Usama Bin Laden's group in Khartoum.

14 Q. Did Odeh indicate who attended his wedding?

15 A. Yes.

16 THE COURT: Whose wedding?

17 MR. FITZGERALD: I am sorry, Odeh's wedding.

18 A. Mustafa, Ahmed, another person named Harun.

19 Q. What did Odeh tell you about this person named Harun, who

20 he was and where he was from?

21 A. He said that Harun was also an Al Qaeda member. He was

22 also in the camps in Afghanistan. He knew him from Somalia.

23 Q. Did he indicate where he was born or grew up?

24 A. All right. He is Comoros Islands, from Comoros.

25 Q. You told us a few moments ago about how Odeh described to


1652

12skbin1

Anticev - direct

1 you seeing Abu Hafs in Somalia. Did Odeh indicate whether or


18/157

2 not he ever saw Abu Hafs in Kenya?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What did he tell you about that?

5 A. After arriving in Kenya, Abu Hafs came to see him later

6 on, couple of months later in Mombasa, October or November of

7 that year, and he told Odeh that he was going to set him up in

8 a fishing business, and he gave him a fiberglass boat, and he

9 said that he was going to have two employees who were also Al

10 Qaeda members, and that he could take a small salary for

11 himself just for his own expenses and living, and the other

12 two people would get salaries, and the rest of the profits

13 would remain for Al Qaeda.

14 Q. During your interviews of Odeh, did he ever talk to you

15 about a person by the name of Saleh?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What did Odeh tell you about Saleh?

18 A. Saleh is the leader of the Al Qaeda cell of people in

19 Kenya, and that he has a lot of contact with Usama Bin Laden

20 and the hierarchy in Afghanistan.

21 Q. Did he indicate to you what nationality Saleh was?

22 A. That he was Egyptian.

23 Q. Did he indicate any other names that Saleh was known by?

24 A. He was also known as Abu Miriam and Abdellah Ahmed

25 Abdellah, and Abu Mohamed.


1653

12skbin1

Anticev - direct

1 Q. Let's go through those more slowly. Abu Miriam, did he


19/157

2 indicate any reason why Saleh would be known as Abu Miriam?

3 A. Because -- that means father of. Abu means father of

4 somebody. So he has a daughter, oldest daughter named Miriam.

5 Q. You mentioned Abdellah Ahmed Abdellah. Do you know if

6 that was his real name or not?

7 A. I believe that was his real name.

8 Q. You mentioned an Abu Mohamed. Did Odeh tell you anything

9 else about Saleh, what he did prior to becoming involved in

10 jihad?

11 A. Saleh, he believes that Saleh, or he said that Saleh was a

12 member of another, what is considered a terrorist group called

13 Egyptian Islamic Jihad, and he also stated that Saleh was very

14 athletic, and he had also been a soccer player and actually

15 obtained some fame in Egypt as a soccer player.

16 Q. Did Odeh tell you whether or not Saleh had ever been to

17 Somalia?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did he indicate where in Somalia Saleh had gone to and

20 when?

21 A. Well, he said he was in Somalia and he was in Mogadishu.

22 Q. Did he indicate the year, the Odeh indicate to you the

23 year that Saleh was in Mogadishu?

24 A. Yes, in '93.

25 Q. During your interviews, did Odeh talk about a person by


1654

12skbin1

Anticev - direct

1 the name of Abdul Rahman or Abdel al Mahajur?

2 A. Yes, he did.


20/157

3 Q. What did he tell you about him?

4 A. Abdul Rahman, he first met Abdul Rahman in that Sadeek

5 camp that I mentioned before. He was one of the trainers in

6 explosives at the advanced explosive course in Sadeek camp.

7 Q. Did Odeh indicate whether or not Abdul Rahman was a member

8 of Al Qaeda?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did he indicate his national origin?

11 A. I believe he is also Egyptian.

12 Q. Did Odeh indicate whether or not he ever saw Abdul Rahman

13 in Somalia?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What did he say about that? Did he see him or not, in

16 Somalia?

17 A. He told me in the interview that Abdul Rahman was in

18 Somalia. I can't recall if he actually saw him there.

19 Q. You mentioned a person named Ahmed the Egyptian, or

20 Shuaib, or Abu Islam. What did Odeh tell you about his

21 background during the course of the interviews?

22 A. He met Ahmed the Egyptian also at the Jihad Wal camp in

23 '92, and he was in Somalia with them. He was one of those

24 four trainers that was in the company of Abu Hafs coming back,

25 you know, when they were in Somalia, and Ahmed the Egyptian


1655

12skbin1

Anticev - direct

1 left Somalia with Odeh.

2 Q. Did he indicate to you whether he was a member of Al


21/157

3 Qaeda?

4 A. Yes, he is.

5 Q. Did he indicate whether or not Ahmed the Egyptian or

6 Shuaib ever worked in the Sudan?

7 A. Yes, he did. After he got married to, I believe his

8 wife's name was Meena, they moved back to Khartoum, Sudan.

9 That was where Bin Laden's headquarters was at the time. And

10 he went to work for Bin Laden over there.

11 Q. Did Odeh indicate to you what type of work Shuaib or Ahmed

12 the Egyptian did for Bin Laden in the Sudan?

13 A. Right, he worked in the agricultural part of Bin Laden's

14 business, buying and selling agricultural products, and he

15 also did some financial work for Bin Laden.

16 Q. Did Odeh indicate whether or not Ahmed the Egyptian or

17 Shuaib ever returned to Kenya after working in the Sudan?

18 A. Yes, he did.

19 Q. Did he indicate when he returned and the town where he

20 lived?

21 A. He didn't stay in Sudan all that long. I don't know

22 exactly he returned, but I know he settled in a town of

23 Malindi.

24 Q. Did Odeh talk to you during the course of the interviews

25 about a person named Fahad?


1656

12skbin1

Anticev - direct

1 A. Yes, he talked about Fahad.

2 Q. Just give us a general description of what Odeh told you


22/157

3 about the background of Fahad?

4 A. He said that Fahad was a young guy who was born in Kenya.

5 I believe, I think he might be of Yemeni descent. I'm not

6 quite sure. But he described him as a young guy who was

7 searching for jihad, who was really wanting to get involved

8 with the jihad.

9 Q. Did Odeh indicate to you how it was that he met or who it

10 was that put him in contact with this person named Fahad?

11 A. I believe he met him through Mustafa, because Mustafa was

12 in that business with him.

13 Q. Is that the person you said before was Mustafa Fadhl?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did he indicate whether or not Fahad ever received any

16 training?

17 A. Yes. He wanted training so badly that he even paid his

18 own way. He went and took a very advanced explosive course in

19 Afghanistan that he had to pay $6,000 out of his own funds to

20 go to.

21 Q. Did he indicate how long that class was that Fahad took

22 for $6,000?

23 A. Yes, it was 60 days. And Odeh also said that Fahad had

24 even more knowledge of explosives than he did.

25 Q. Than Odeh did?


12skbin1

Anticev - direct

1 A. Than Odeh did.

2 Q. Did Odeh indicate whether or not he liked spending time

3 with Fahad?


23/157

4 A. The gist of what he said about Fahad is that he really

5 didn't trust him all that much. He thought that Fahad knew

6 too many things about that little cell. He complained that

7 Fahad knew all the guys in that cell, all their nicknames, and

8 he didn't think that was a good idea, that he would know so

9 much about everybody.

10 Q. Did Odeh indicate whether or not there came a time when

11 Fahad brought him any material?

12 A. Yes. At a time Fahad brought him a block of TNT and an

13 electrical detonator, blasting cap.

14 Q. Do you recall if Odeh told you the year it was that Fahad

15 brought him the TNT and the detonator?

16 A. I would like to say '97 but I am not quite sure.

17 Q. Let me see if I can refresh your recollection. I show the

18 witness what has been premarked as Government's Exhibit 6 in

19 the 3500 material -- why don't we move it along and come back

20 to the date later.

21 What did Odeh indicate to you the block of material

22 looked like?

23 A. He described the block that Fahad showed him as pale

24 green.

25 Q. What did Odeh indicate to you he thought of the TNT


165812skbin1

Anticev - direct

1 because of its color?

2 A. He said it wasn't the best. He said the best TNT was

3 yellow.


24/157

4 Q. What did Odeh indicate to you would happen -- I am sorry.

5 Did Odeh indicate where it was that Fahad got the TNT

6 and the detonator?

7 A. He said that he got that in Tanzania, that there was lots

8 of explosives there and readily available.

9 Q. What if anything did Odeh tell you about what would happen

10 to the information that Fahad could get TNT from Tanzania?

11 A. Odeh stated that if Fahad had developed a source of

12 explosives that was easy to get, that that should be reported

13 back to the hierarchy at Al Qaeda.

14 Q. Did he indicate whether or not Fahad ever traveled to

15 Afghanistan?

16 A. Yes, he spent a year in Afghanistan.

17 Q. Let me just approach you with page 19 of Government's

18 Exhibit 6. I will ask you if reading that document refreshes

19 your recollection as to the time Odeh indicated that Fahad

20 showed him the TNT?

21 A. On this document it says that --

22 Q. Don't tell us what the document says. I am asking you --

23 A. No, two and a half years ago from '98.

24 Q. So it would be 1996, not 1997?

25 A. Right.


1659

12skbin1Anticev - direct

1 Q. During the discussion with Mr. Odeh, did he ever indicate

2 to you whether he ever went by the American Embassy in

3 Nairobi, ever stopped there?

4 A. Odeh?


25/157

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. Yes, he did.

7 Q. Did Odeh tell you the circumstances under which he went by

8 the American Embassy, and, if you recall, what year that was?

9 A. The circumstances that he stopped at the embassy was, he

10 was trying to renew his Jordanian passport, and he was looking

11 for another embassy, and he said he wandered into the U.S.

12 Embassy, and that was probably '96, I believe.

13 Q. Are you certain of that year?

14 A. No, I am not certain.

15 Q. We will come back to the year in a moment. Did he

16 indicate whether or not he asked anyone in the embassy

17 anything when he visited? Did he indicate how he found the

18 other embassy he was looking for?

19 A. Yes. He asked the people, he asked the guard at the U.S.

20 Embassy where that other embassy was.

21 Q. During the time that you interviewed Odeh, did he talk to

22 you about a person named Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did he indicate what happened to Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri?

25 A. Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri, he said that he drowned in a


1660

12skbin1

Anticev - direct

1 ferry boat accident.

2 Q. Just so we can clear up the date before we move on, I show

3 you that same exhibit, page 12 --

4 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, we have a stipulation


26/157

5 with Mr. Ricco that the date Mr. Odeh said he asked directions

6 at the embassy was 1994, just so the record is clear.

7 THE COURT: 1994?

8 MR. FITZGERALD: 1994.

9 Q. During your interview of Mr. Odeh, did he indicate what if

10 anything was done after people in Al Qaeda learned that Abu

11 Ubaidah had drowned in the ferry accident?

12 A. Yes. He said that they were very concerned about that,

13 and they wanted to confirm the fact that he had died, and they

14 sent an individual named Harun to go and confirm that he in

15 fact did die.

16 Q. Did Odeh indicate whether or not while Abu Ubaidah Al

17 Banshiri was alive, whether Odeh ever saw Abu Ubaidah in

18 Kenya?

19 A. Yes, he indicated that Abu Ubaidah came to visit him in

20 Mombasa two times.

21 Q. During your interviews with Mr. Odeh, did he talk about a

22 person by the name of Abu Fadhl, or Abu Fadhl al Makkee?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did he indicate who Abu Fadhl was?

25 A. He indicated that he was also a high-ranking Al Qaeda


1661

12skbin1

Anticev - direct

1 member who they thought had been compromised that was talking

2 to the Saudi authorities.

3 Q. Did Odeh indicate what it was he thought Abu Fadhl was

4 talking to the Saudi authorities about?

5 A. I don't believe he said what they were talking about but


27/157

6 it caused Al Qaeda to change its operations.

7 Q. Did Odeh indicate what it was that Al Qaeda wished to do

8 in response to the fact that Abu Fadhl was talking to the

9 Saudi authorities?

10 A. They wanted to figure out a way to assassinate him.

11 Q. Did Odeh talk to you at all about an entity known as the

12 Mercy International Relief Agency?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What did he tell you about the Mercy International Relief

15 Agency?

16 A. That was also -- it was run by a guy in Nairobi named

17 Tawhili, and that organization had ties to Al Qaeda, and Harun

18 and Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri were close to that organization.

19 Q. Did Odeh indicate to you what the word Tawhili meant?

20 A. The tall.

21 Q. During the course of your interviews, did Odeh talk about

22 an organization known as Help Africa People?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did he indicate to you whether or not he received anything

25 from Help Africa People?


1662

12skbin1

Anticev - direct

1 A. He said he received an identity card from that

2 organization.

3 Q. During the course of the interviews, did Odeh describe to

4 you whether or not Harun from the Comoros was a member of Al

5 Qaeda?


28/157

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did he describe to you what Harun's appearance was, what

8 he looked like?

9 A. He described him as small and thin, with shiny brown skin,

10 a small nose, and just said he looked Somali, he looks like a

11 Somali.

12 Q. Did Odeh describe to you any particular tasks that Harun

13 performed for Al Qaeda?

14 A. Yes. Harun, he said that Harun was a good typist, and,

15 you know, he spent a lot of time at MIRA, the organization we

16 just talked about, and he would type reports for the hierarchy

17 in Al Qaeda.

18 Q. And when you said MIRA, MIRA, are you referring to the

19 Mercy International Relief?

20 A. Yes, Mercy International Relief.

21 Q. Did Odeh indicate to you what was contained in those

22 reports that he typed for the hierarchy?

23 A. In those reports they were using certain code words to

24 conceal what their true intentions were.

25 Q. Did Odeh describe to you what some of the code words were


1663

12skbin1

Anticev - direct

1 and what they meant?

2 A. Yes, he gave me a list of about four. For example, the

3 word working means jihad. Tools mean weapons. Potatoes mean

4 hand grenades. Papers mean bad documents. And the word goods

5 mean fake documents of a particular country, and he gave me an

6 example of how were the goods from Yemen, which would mean we


29/157

7 need fake documents for Yemen.

8 Q. Did he describe what he meant by fake documents, what kind

9 of documents?

10 A. Travel documents, things of that nature.

11 Q. Did Odeh indicate to you what it was that Harun would do

12 with these reports once they were typed?

13 A. Once they were typed, Harun would fax it to Pakistan, and

14 since there was no electronic communications with the

15 leadership in Afghanistan, it would go by courier to the Al

16 Qaeda leadership.

17 Q. Did Odeh indicate to you who, what Al Qaeda leaders were

18 receiving the reports from Harun?

19 A. I am sorry.

20 Q. Did he indicate who the Al Qaeda leaders were that were

21 receiving these reports from Harun?

22 A. Yes. It was Abu Hafs and Fadhl and a third person, I

23 can't remember.

24 Q. Did Odeh indicate whether or not Harun had any training in

25 explosives?


1664

12skbin1

Anticev - direct

1 A. Yes, he did.

2 Q. Did he indicate whether or not Harun was capable, his

3 explosives experience made him capable of blowing up an

4 embassy?

5 A. Yes. Odeh said that if that bomb was built by them it was

6 most likely built by Harun and Abdul Rahman.


30/157

7 Q. Did Odeh indicate whether or not Harun had better

8 explosives appearance than Odeh had -- explosives training, I

9 am sorry. If you recall.

10 A. I know Harun, I believe, went to the Sadeek camp too.

11 So --

12 Q. Don't --

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. During your interviews, did Odeh talk about a person by

15 the name of Abu Osama?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What did he tell you about Abu Osama?

18 A. He described him as an Egyptian who is from America, and

19 that he went to Afghanistan to teach students in tactics of

20 avoiding capture and countering interrogation.

21 Q. Did Odeh tell you whether or not he knew of a person

22 referred to by the name Taysir el Masry?

23 A. Yes. He said that Taysir el Masry was another name for

24 Abu Hafs.

25 Q. Did Odeh talk to you about a person by the name of


1665

12skbin1

Anticev - direct

1 Azmarai?

2 A. Yes. He stated that the word Azmarai in the Afghani

3 language means lion --

4 Q. Like Lion King, lion.

5 A. -- and that he had his own cell and that he was in US

6 custody and that he would take revenge for him being in US

7 custody.


31/157

8 Q. When you say he, who are you referring to?

9 A. When I say he, I mean Usama Bin Laden.

10 Q. Directing your attention to March of 1997, did Odeh

11 indicate what it was that he was doing in March of 1997?

12 A. In March of '97, Odeh, along with Mustafa and Ahmed the

13 Egyptian, were sent back by orders of Bin Laden back to

14 Somalia to, as he says, assess the situation.

15 Q. During the time that you interviewed Mr. Odeh, did he

16 indicate whether he was paid as a member of Al Qaeda?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did he indicate when was the last time he received his Al

19 Qaeda payment of salary?

20 A. He stated that the way they got paid was on a yearly

21 basis, and he was paid in -- he was paid up until after August

22 of '98. He was paid the year before, but that covered the

23 whole year.

24 Q. So he was paid sometime in late '97?

25 A. Yes, late '97, and he was good till late '98.


1666

12skbin1

Anticev - direct

1 Q. Did Odeh indicate how long he spent when he went to

2 Somalia with Ahmed the Egyptian and Mustafa?

3 A. I believe he went there for approximately seven months.

4 Q. Did he indicate what he did after that? Let me ask you

5 this: Did he ever return to Kenya from Somalia?

6 A. Yes, he came back.

7 Q. Did he indicate where he went to, what town?


32/157

8 A. He located to the town of Witu.

9 Q. Did he indicate what he was doing in Witu?

10 A. Yes. He had set up a furniture business with his

11 brother-in-law Omar.

12 Q. Did he indicate whether or not -- what year was this that

13 he moved to Witu and set up the furniture business?

14 A. I would say late '97, early '98.

15 Q. Did Odeh indicate to you whether or not he ever saw the

16 person named Saleh in 1998?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell us as you recall what Odeh told you about the

19 occasions when he met Saleh?

20 A. In March of '98, he went to Mombasa to do some furniture

21 business with Omar, and he met Saleh in Mombasa, and Saleh

22 told him that they were going to have a meeting that night

23 that he had to come to in the town of Malindi, and at that

24 meeting there would be the other sell people there. It was

25 Saleh, Odeh, Ahmed the Egyptian, and Harun, and Mustafa was


1667

12skbin1

Anticev - direct

1 not there. He was traveling in Tanzania, I believe he was in

2 Dar, Dar es Salaam.

3 Q. What happened at the meeting?

4 A. In that meeting Saleh indicated that he had just returned

5 from Afghanistan and that he had received word from Bin Laden

6 that he was going to start to get the people, the Al Qaeda

7 people out of Kenya.



33/157

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25


1668

12slbin2

Anticev - direct

1 Q. And did Saleh indicate that the people there at the

2 meeting should do anything?

3 A. Yes, he said that you should start getting your affairs in

4 order and start getting documents.

5 Q. And did Odeh indicate -- you mentioned that Odeh was in

6 Dar es Salaam. Did Odeh indicate what it was that Mustafa was

7 doing?

8 A. That Mustafa was in Dar es Salaam.


34/157

9 Q. Did Odeh indicate what it was Mustafa was doing in Dar es

10 Salaam at that time?

11 A. I believe he was doing business that he was involved with

12 with Fahad.

13 Q. And did Odeh indicate what type of business?

14 A. That it was an import-export business.

15 Q. Now, did there come a time that Odeh indicated whether he

16 saw Mustafa again after the meeting with Saleh?

17 A. Yes, Mustafa came to see him the following month in April

18 of '98 and he came with, also with instructions to start

19 getting ready to go.

20 Q. Did Odeh indicate whether or not he and Mustafa talked

21 about any developments in al Qaeda at that time, any

22 statements?

23 A. Right, they talked about the, it was called the fatwahs

24 that were issued by Bin Laden in 1998 and they had a

25 conversation regarding al Qaeda taking on the United States as


1669

12slbin2

Anticev - direct

1 an enemy and if it was a wise thing to do since the United

2 States was so powerful and some -- they also discussed that

3 some leadership in al Qaeda weren't really sure if that was a

4 good thing to do, but they all wound up supporting Bin Laden

5 in doing what he wanted to do.

6 Q. Did Odeh indicate whether he saw or received any further

7 messages from Saleh after that point?

8 A. I believe about three months before August, as he

9 describes it, he said that Mustafa came to see him again three


35/157

10 months before August with another message about hurry up, get

11 your documents in order, there's an emergency situation and

12 that we have to start getting ready to travel.

13 Q. Did Odeh indicate whether or not there came a time when he

14 saw Ahmed the Egyptian, or Shuaib?

15 A. Yes. Approximately -- this is the way he describes it --

16 40 days before they travel, meaning August 6th, so 40 days

17 before August 6, Ahmed the Egyptian came to see him in Witu in

18 his home and he brought with him two messages.

19 One message was that an individual named Sheik

20 Hassan, who was a leader of a Somali tribe, and that Sheik

21 Hassan wants to go see Usama Bin Laden and that one of the

22 three, Odeh, Ahmed the Egyptian, and/or, I should say, or

23 Mustafa had to actually escort him from Somalia to

24 Afghanistan.

25 And the second message was that they had received


1670

12slbin2

Anticev - direct

1 other messages from Bin Laden that Bin Laden was able to unite

2 other Islamic terrorist groups to join him in his fight

3 against the United States and that they would all get together

4 and make a front against the United States.

5 Q. Did Odeh indicate whether he had any discussions during

6 this time with Mustafa or Saleh about whether or not it was

7 appropriate to do operations in Kenya?

8 A. Yes. He had that type of conversation with both of them

9 and Saleh stated, he is the Kenyan conciliator, he said that


36/157

10 he would like to do an operation against the United States in

11 Kenya because he did not like Kenya or Kenyans. And Mustafa

12 had the opposite view. He said he wouldn't want to do an

13 operation in Kenya because he liked Kenya and the Kenyan

14 people.

15 Q. Did Odeh indicate to you which mind-set he shared?

16 A. I'm sorry?

17 Q. Did Odeh say which view he shared?

18 A. Yes. Odeh, he did not want to do an operation in Kenya.

19 He liked it there and he liked the people.

20 Q. During the course of the interviews with Mr. Odeh, was he

21 asked any questions, hypothetical questions, about what type

22 of operations he would participate in?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you recall what questions he was asked and what answers

25 he gave?


1671

12slbin2

Anticev - direct

1 A. Right. We posed to him certain hypothetical situations.

2 We said would you partake in an action against U.S. troops in

3 Saudi Arabia, and he stated that he would if it was

4 Islamically correct. And he would check before he would do

5 so, he would check with a religious authority to see if it was

6 okay because, he said, because I do not follow blindly like a

7 cat. And the second situation was, would you attack a U.S.

8 building or installation in Kenya if only Americans were

9 killed and no Kenyans were killed, and he said that he would

10 not because he likes Kenya.


37/157

11 The third situation was, would you attack a U.S.

12 installation or building outside of Kenya if no civilians were

13 killed, and he said, well, if it was Islamically correct, and

14 then he said, well, if it was Islamically correct and it was

15 ordered by Bin Laden, that he would have no choice but to

16 partake in it.

17 Q. During your interviews with Odeh, did he talk to you about

18 a person by the name of Sheik Bahamad?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And what did he tell you about Sheik Bahamad?

21 A. The way Sheik Bahamad first comes into -- plays into the

22 interview was on July 14th, while he was in Mombasa, he saw

23 Saleh. And Saleh is now pushing him to get his affairs in

24 order, it's really time to go. And he says to Odeh, you have

25 to get your documents, and Odeh told Saleh, I need money. And


1672

12slbin2

Anticev - direct

1 Saleh told him, go see Fahad, Fahad has money for you. And

2 then he told Saleh, well, Fahad's not here, he's in Tanzania.

3 And so Saleh didn't give him any other direction so

4 Odeh went to see his friend, his friend Sheik Bahamad, for

5 some money and he told Sheik Bahamad that he needed 6500

6 shillings, which Sheik Bahamad gave him. And Odeh told Sheik

7 Bahamad, don't worry, Fahad will pay you back.

8 And Sheik Bahamad is also a businessman. He owns a

9 small trucking company in Mombasa.

10 Q. Did he indicate, though, where Sheik Bahamad was from,


38/157

11 what his nationality was?

12 A. Yes, he did, but I just can't recall right now.

13 Q. And you mentioned that -- you referred to his friend. Was

14 Sheik Bahamad Odeh's friend or Fahad's friend?

15 A. Both.

16 Q. Did Saleh work with -- who worked in the trucking business

17 with Sheik Bahamad?

18 A. Fahad used to work as a driver for him.

19 Q. Did there come a time when Odeh told you during the

20 interviews that he saw Saleh again in Kenya after -- let me

21 strike that.

22 You mentioned before that there was a conversation

23 where somebody had to bring Sheik Hassan over to Afghanistan,

24 whether it be Odeh, Mustafa, or Ahmed the Egyptian?

25 A. Yes.


1673

12slbin2

Anticev - direct

1 Q. Did Odeh indicate whether or not Sheik Hassan ever --

2 first, whether he himself, Odeh, took Sheik Hassan to

3 Afghanistan?

4 A. He didn't.

5 Q. And did Odeh indicate whether Sheik Hassan ever went to

6 Afghanistan and came back?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What, if anything, did he tell you about what happened

9 when Sheik Hassan returned from Afghanistan?

10 A. Okay. July, late July, July 30th or 31st, seven days

11 before the bombing, Odeh finds Sheik Hassan in Mombasa. Sheik


39/157

12 Hassan has with him cassette tapes, a letter, and some

13 documents from the Saudi opposition in London. And he gives

14 these documents and tapes and letter to Odeh to deliver to

15 Saleh, and he does. And Saleh reads the letter and he just

16 says, this is nothing new.

17 Q. Can you describe what Odeh told you about what happened

18 during the week of August 1st through August 7th, 1998? If

19 you could try to go day-by-day. Let's focus on August 1st.

20 A. Okay, first of all, on -- everybody is starting to really

21 get into a mode that, you know, we have to start traveling and

22 get out real quick. On August 1st, first of all, the first

23 three cell leaders leave, okay. On August 1st, Ahmed the

24 Egyptian, Mustafa, and Sheik Bahamad leave for Afghanistan on

25 that day. Odeh is still in Mombasa and he is directed to


1674

12slbin2

Anticev - direct

1 try -- he has to find Saleh, but he keeps missing him.

2 Finally, he runs into Saleh with Fahad and Saleh is

3 extremely upset. He's even like, as Odeh says, he was yelling

4 at me in the middle of the street, we have to get out of here,

5 it's an emergency, we got to get out of here, you have to be

6 out of here by the 6th and you have to get your documents.

7 And then Odeh told Saleh that, I don't have my passport, and

8 Saleh said, well, I have a passport for you and we'll meet

9 tonight at your brother-in-law's house, Omar.

10 And so that night, Fahad and Saleh do come to Omar's

11 house and they give Odeh a -- I believe it's a Yemeni


40/157

12 passport, it's expired, and it has somebody else's picture on

13 it. And they tell him that tomorrow, on the 2nd, you better

14 get that stuff organized. Go to immigration authorities and

15 get a picture and get that passport up to date.

16 Q. Now, you mentioned that Odeh was told that he had to get

17 out of Kenya by the 6th. Is that a reference to the 6th of

18 August?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And did Odeh indicate whether or not in his prior

21 experience in al Qaeda he had received urgent orders like that

22 to leave places by a certain date?

23 A. Well, he saw it, he saw it coming, but regarding the 1st,

24 he stated that he had never seen anything so urgent before.

25 Q. And on August 1st, you mentioned that Saleh told him to


1675

12slbin2

Anticev - direct

1 meet at Odeh's brother-in-law's house that evening, correct?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. And when he met at the brother-in-law's house that

4 evening, did Odeh indicate whether he had any conversation

5 one-on-one with Saleh?

6 A. On the 1st?

7 Q. On the 1st.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What did he say happened during that conversation?

10 A. That's when Saleh told him that he had to, that the other

11 people were traveling today and that he had to get his affairs

12 in order and leave.


41/157

13 Q. And on the 1st of August did anyone give Odeh any money?

14 A. On the 1st of August, yes. Saleh had given Mustafa a

15 thousand dollars to give to Odeh, and I guess before Mustafa

16 left on the 1st he got the thousand dollars from Mustafa and

17 that evening, also, he returned 400 of the thousand, I

18 believe, back to Saleh.

19 Q. Did Odeh indicate whether or not Mustafa told him any

20 reason why Mustafa and the two other people he was with had to

21 leave, leave Kenya?

22 A. He said that they were ordered to leave.

23 Q. Did he indicate, did Odeh indicate whether or not Mustafa

24 told him what, what it was that was to happen?

25 A. Mustafa told him that he felt something big was going to


1676

12slbin2

Anticev - direct

1 happen real soon.

2 Q. During the course of your interviews with Mr. Odeh, did he

3 indicate whether or not Saleh was in contact with the people

4 in Afghanistan, and if so, how?

5 A. He had been in contact with people in Afghanistan all

6 along, but I'm not quite sure if you mean on the 1st.

7 Q. No, just generally did he indicate whether Saleh was in

8 contact?

9 A. Oh, yes, he was the point of contact for the al Qaeda

10 group. He was -- actually, Odeh stated that Saleh was the

11 only one in the group that was allowed to make overseas phone

12 calls on behalf of al Qaeda.


42/157

13 Q. Directing your attention to August 2, did Odeh tell you

14 what happened on August 2nd?

15 A. Well, August 2nd was a Sunday and he was just ordered by

16 Saleh to get all his affairs in order and get his passport

17 fixed and a picture and all that stuff, but since it was

18 Sunday, Odeh decided to go visit his wife's aunt in Malindi to

19 settle up on some furniture business. And that's where he

20 went.

21 And while he was there, he got an angry, a real angry

22 phone call from Fahad saying, where are you? What are you

23 doing? And he said, Saleh wants to see you right away, and

24 they made an arrangement to meet because Saleh was leaving

25 that day on the 1st for Nairobi. So Odeh took a bus from


1677

12slbin2

Anticev - direct

1 Malindi back to Nairobi -- to Mombasa to try to hook up with

2 Saleh at the bus station. But he didn't arrive there until 9

3 and he missed -- I guess Saleh didn't wait for him, he left.

4 So then after that, he went back to his brother-in-law's to

5 sleep.

6 Q. Did Odeh indicate whether or not he understood whether the

7 immigration office was open on Sunday?

8 A. It was closed on Sunday.

9 Q. What happened? What did Odeh tell you happened on August

10 the 3rd, Monday?

11 A. On the 3rd, on Monday, he had slept at Omar's house in

12 Mombasa that night, and that morning, early, around 7:30,

13 Fahad came to pick him up. And that was the day they had to


43/157

14 get all these things done. So he picks him up and they go to

15 the immigration office to start to work on the passports.

16 Then Odeh tells Fahad, why don't you do it for me, I

17 really have to get back to my brother-in-law, Omar, because I

18 have to make arrangements for my wife and child to live with

19 him because I'm leaving. So he did that. So I guess Fahad

20 took care of the documents, and he later meets up with Fahad

21 and then they go to a thing called Eagle Travel Agency to buy

22 their airline tickets for, from Nairobi to Karachi.

23 Q. And did Odeh indicate what happened after the tickets were

24 purchased at the Eagle Travel Agency, what Odeh and Fahad did

25 that night, the that rest of the day?


1678

12slbin2

Anticev - direct

1 A. Well, after they purchased the tickets Fahad told Odeh,

2 gave him instructions as for Saleh that Odeh had to travel

3 that day and meet the people who were leaving in Nairobi, and

4 he gave him the address of the Hilltop, Hilltop Hotel in

5 Nairobi. He gave that address to Odeh, told him to meet Saleh

6 at the Hilltop Hotel.

7 Q. And did Odeh tell you what it was that Fahad told Odeh he

8 was going to do that day?

9 A. He said he had something else to do and he will be

10 traveling later.

11 Q. Did Odeh tell you during the interviews what then happened

12 after Fahad told him to go to the Hilltop Hotel and meet

13 Saleh?


44/157

14 A. Okay, now we're getting into the evening of the 3rd, so

15 Odeh took a bus that travels all night from Mombasa to

16 Nairobi. And he was on the bus all night alone, he says, and

17 arrived in Nairobi at 7:30 a.m. the following day, the 4th.

18 Q. And did Odeh indicate to you what happened on the 4th once

19 he arrived in Nairobi?

20 A. Well, he arrived at 7:30 in the morning and he said he was

21 very tired. He checked into the hotel. He used that passport

22 given to him by Saleh with the fake name to register, and then

23 he went for a nap. And around noon he said that he woke up

24 and ran into Saleh and Harun. They were leaving, leaving the

25 hotel.


1679

12slbin2

Anticev - direct

1 When Saleh saw him, Saleh gave him a razor and a pair

2 of pants and told him to shave his beard, and he continued on

3 to Saleh's room and in Saleh's room was Abdel Rahman, the same

4 Abdel Rahman that was his trainer in explosives in the Sadeek

5 Camp.

6 Q. I'm going to stop you there a moment. When you said that

7 Odeh told you he checked into the Hilltop Hotel and took a

8 nap, did he tell you what room he stayed in in the Hilltop

9 Hotel?

10 A. 102B.

11 Q. And you indicated that when he saw Saleh and Harun, Saleh

12 had given him a razor. Did Odeh indicate whether or not he

13 ever did shave the beard?

14 A. Yes, he says he shaved it the following day.


45/157

15 Q. And did Odeh tell you why he shaved his beard?

16 A. He shaved it so he would conceal himself being a Muslim

17 while traveling.

18 Q. And you mentioned that he saw Saleh and Harun and Saleh

19 and Harun left and he went to Saleh's room, correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did Odeh indicate whether or not Saleh and Harun told him

22 anything about what they were going to do at that point?

23 A. They said they were going out to do a small job.

24 Q. And did Odeh indicate to you what he understood "a small

25 job" to refer to?


1680

12slbin2

Anticev - direct

1 A. Well, he knew it was not shopping or something like that,

2 he knew it was to do some al Qaeda work.

3 Q. And when he got to the room where Saleh was, did he

4 indicate what room number that was?

5 A. 107A, I believe.

6 Q. And you mentioned that he, when he got there he saw Abdel

7 Rahman, who he knew as the explosives trainer from the past.

8 Did he indicate whether or not he knew Abdel Rahman

9 would be in that room when he got there?

10 A. He didn't know he was going to be in that room. He was

11 actually -- it's hard to describe. He said, I was surprised

12 to see him, but not shocked. You know, it was like, it

13 figures you're here, but he wasn't expecting to see him and he

14 also stated that it made sense, this was al Qaeda business and


46/157

15 all the al Qaeda people were traveling, so it didn't shock him

16 to see Abdel Rahman at the hotel.

17 Q. Did Odeh tell you whether he learned how long Abdel Rahman

18 had been at the Hilltop Hotel?

19 A. Yes, he stated that he knew that Abdel Rahman -- I guess

20 he found out later that Abdel Rahman was staying at the

21 Hilltop Hotel for the past two months.

22 Q. And you mentioned that Harun and Saleh left to go do a

23 small job. Did Odeh indicate whether he ever saw Harun and

24 Saleh return?

25 A. Yes, he stated they returned I think about 4:00 p.m.


1681

12slbin2

Anticev - direct

1 Q. During the course of the interview did Odeh indicate

2 whether he knew what kind of vehicle Harun had?

3 A. I think it was a white pickup truck, Toyota.

4 Q. And sticking with August 4th for the moment, did Odeh

5 indicate what happened with the various people, Saleh, Harun,

6 Abdel Rahman, and he did on the evening of August 4th?

7 A. On the evening of August 4th, Abdel Rahman and Harun leave

8 the Hilltop Hotel and stay away all night. I think he said

9 that Rahman might have slept at Harun's house. Harun had a

10 house in Nairobi. And then he went to stay with Saleh that

11 night. They were talking in Saleh's room and they were

12 talking about a magazine article in, I believe it was an

13 Egyptian publication about Egyptian terrorism and wanted

14 terrorists and they discussed, they were wondering if Abu

15 Hafs' picture would be in that magazine.


47/157

16 Q. And did Odeh indicate what Saleh's demeanor was that

17 evening?

18 A. Saleh's demeanor was he was extremely worried and I

19 believe he was saying some kind of prayers for anxiety and for

20 worry, for being worried.

21 Q. Did Odeh indicate where he slept that night?

22 A. Yes, he slept in Saleh's room.

23 Q. Did Odeh indicate to you during the course of the

24 interview, did he indicate to you whether he thought at that

25 time whether there was something going to happen in Kenya?


1682

12slbin2

Anticev - direct

1 During the interview, did Odeh say anything about

2 whether at that time he thought an operation was going to be

3 carried out in Kenya.

4 A. On the day of the 4th, on that evening?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. He actually stated that when people were there, the cell

7 people, nobody talked about anything; even though the climate

8 was urgent, nobody discussed anything.

9 Q. Now, tell us what Odeh told you about the following

10 morning, the morning of August 5th.

11 A. Odeh states that when he woke up on the morning of August

12 5th, he saw Haroun having breakfast with Saleh, and then a

13 little later after that, Saleh and Harun were leaving the

14 hotel. So Odeh asks Saleh, while you're out, can you pick me

15 up a Nike bag -- a travel bag, I should say -- a travel bag,


48/157

16 socks and a shirt, something like that, and then he says, is

17 there anything I can do? Odeh asks Saleh, is there anything I

18 can do?

19 So Saleh tells him, why don't you stay at the hotel

20 and wait for Abdel Rahman. So I guess he had, you know,

21 probably hadn't returned from the night before, he was out at

22 Harun's. He said, stay and wait for Rahman, and he did.

23 However, Saleh and Harun returned before Rahman came back, so

24 he went outside, he left the hotel at about 2:00 to go for a

25 walk and buy some stuff on Moi Avenue.


1683

12slbin2

Anticev - direct

1 Q. Did Odeh indicate how Abdel Rahman and Harun were dressed

2 on August 5th, what kind of clothing they were wearing?

3 A. On August 5th they were wearing the same clothes they were

4 wearing on August 4th, when they left and stayed out all night

5 together.

6 Q. During your interview did Odeh indicate whether or not he

7 saw the American Embassy when he went shopping on Moi Avenue

8 on August 5th?

9 A. He said he did not.

10 Q. Did Odeh indicate whether or not he knew where the

11 American Embassy was?

12 A. He said he didn't.

13 Q. Did Odeh indicate what, if anything, he bought when he

14 went on the shopping trip?

15 A. He bought, I believe, a shirt and two books.

16 Q. Did Odeh indicate what happened on the evening of August


49/157

17 5th?

18 A. On the evening of August 5th, it was now Saleh and Harun

19 that left the Hilltop Hotel and stayed out all night.

20 Q. Where did Odeh stay? Did he stay at the Hilltop Hotel or

21 elsewhere?

22 A. At the Hilltop, yes.

23 Q. Can you tell us what happened on the morning of August

24 6th?

25 A. On the morning of August 6th -- this is the last day --


12slbin2

Anticev - direct

1 first thing he says is he sees that Ahmed from -- another

2 Ahmed now, because the other Ahmed is gone -- Ahmed from

3 Tanzania shows up at the hotel, along with Fahad, okay, and he

4 says that Saleh and Harun returned back to the Hilltop Hotel

5 at 9 a.m.

6 Q. How were they dressed?

7 A. They were also dressed in the same clothes they had on the

8 night before.

9 Q. Did Odeh indicate to you what the mood of Harun and Saleh

10 was when they returned at the hotel on the morning of August

11 6th?

12 A. He said that Saleh was now very happy, not worried, was in

13 good spirits, and that Harun was his normal self.

14 Q. Did Odeh indicate to you during the interview whether or

15 not Saleh indicated whether he was in touch on that day or had

16 been in contact with people, anyone in Afghanistan?


50/157

17 A. Yes. Now Odeh says that he had a conversation with Saleh.

18 Saleh tells Odeh, I just got news from Kandahar, which is an

19 area in Afghanistan, that all the people have been evacuated.

20 And Odeh says, what do you mean? And he says, well, we're

21 expecting a retaliation by the United States Navy, we're

22 expecting their warplanes to start hitting us and we're

23 expecting missile attacks. And then Odeh says that he doesn't

24 pursue that comment.

25 Q. You mentioned Ahmed the Tanzanian and Fahad coming that


168512slbin2

Anticev - direct

1 day. Did Odeh indicate whether or not they were staying at

2 the Hilltop Hotel?

3 A. No, they were staying at a hotel on the same side of the

4 street about 50 meters down the street.

5 Q. Did Odeh indicate whether or not he left the Hilltop Hotel

6 for any time period during August 6th to do anything?

7 A. Yes. He went out, he left the -- well, at 3:00 he left to

8 go out to buy, I think he bought a towel and a bag, and

9 returned to the hotel at about 5:00.

10 Q. Do you know what type of bag it was that Odeh said he

11 bought?

12 A. Nike, a Nike bag, I think.

13 Q. Did he indicate what happened when he returned to the

14 hotel?

15 A. When he returned to the hotel, he found Fahad. Fahad was

16 there, and now they were alone because the other three guys

17 had left that day, too. Ahmed from Tanzania, Abdel Rahman and


51/157

18 Saleh left that day at 3:00. They had a flight out of Nairobi

19 at 3 to Karachi.

20 Q. Did he indicate what airline those three men flew on?

21 A. I think Kenyan Air.

22 Q. And did Odeh tell you what it was that he and Fahad did on

23 August 6th in the afternoon?

24 A. When he got back to the hotel he said he saw Fahad, and

25 Odeh also said before he returned, he also got his shoes


1686

12slbin2Anticev - direct

1 shined. And when he got back to the hotel, Fahad's there so

2 they decide to go out for dinner at a place called Malindi

3 Dishes and Fahad gets his shoes shined also.

4 Q. And did Odeh indicate whether or not before Saleh left

5 that day Saleh gave anything to anyone?

6 A. Yes. Before Saleh left, he gave $500 to each person who

7 was traveling and said that that money was to be used for

8 bribes, if you had to bribe somebody at the border or

9 something, and for personal expenses.

10 Q. Now, during the course of the interview with Mr. Odeh, did

11 he indicate anything about any other actions that were being

12 taken in Afghanistan besides the people relocating from

13 Kandahar? Were they making any other changes?

14 A. Well, Saleh said that he was in contact with Abu Hafs and

15 that Abu Hafs said that they were, you know, to quote him,

16 changing the lines. And he didn't understand, he assumed that

17 to mean changing phone lines.


52/157

18 Q. When you say "he assumed that to mean," Odeh said that he

19 assumed?

20 A. Odeh assumed to mean. He said, I assume that was the

21 phone lines.

22 Q. Did Odeh indicate what it is he did the rest of the day on

23 August 6th with Fahad?

24 A. Well, you know, they went out for dinner and Fahad got his

25 shoes shined and stuff, but they had a 10 p.m. flight that


1687

12slbin2

Anticev - direct

1 night to leave Nairobi and they were expecting that Harun was

2 going to drive them to the airport, but Harun never did it.

3 So they took a taxi to the airport that night.

4 Q. Did Odeh indicate to you what happened when the plane

5 arrived in Pakistan?

6 A. Yes. Odeh stated that Fahad got through and that he got

7 caught with bad documents by the Pakistani service.

8 Q. Just so we're clear, who got caught with bad documents?

9 A. Odeh got caught with bad documents.

10 Q. Now, during the time that you interviewed Odeh, did he

11 tell you how terrorist operations in general are carried out?

12 A. Yes. He described during a typical terrorist operation,

13 that it's broken down into two cells. You have your one cell

14 that gets there ahead of time and they do all the logistics

15 and planning. They observe the building, they do

16 surveillances.

17 If it's difficult to do a really covert surveillance

18 where you're going to get picked up, they would maybe set up a


53/157

19 food stand or buy or set up some kind of a shop nearby to the

20 target and observe the target and look for weaknesses. They

21 might even send somebody to the target to try to get in, you

22 know, asking questions to see how tough the security was. And

23 then all this would be used to, you know, set up the

24 operation, all this intelligence-gathering that that cell does

25 and acquiring of the explosives and building the bomb and all


1688

12slbin2

Anticev - direct

1 that kind of stuff.

2 The second cell is the actual people who arrived and

3 do the act itself.

4 Q. Did he indicate to you with regard to explosives where

5 the, as a general matter, where the best place to put

6 explosive is if you are attacking a target that is a building?

7 A. The best place he said was to get the explosive charge

8 inside the building.

9 Q. And can you indicate what was the next best alternative if

10 you couldn't get the explosive charge inside the building?

11 A. Is to get the charge as close to the building as possible.

12 Q. During the course of the interviews did you discuss with

13 Odeh general characteristics of a bomb, how to make one?

14 A. Yes. He displayed knowledge of how explosives work. He

15 gave me an example of TNT. He said that the best way to

16 detonate TNT is to use another type of explosive called det.

17 cord and he said that ten -- it's like a rope, det. cord, and

18 that ten centimeters of det. cord would be good to initiate


54/157

19 5.5 kilos of TNT.

20 Q. And did he indicate whether there was an alternative

21 tousing the 10 centimeters of detonation cord?

22 A. Yes, that you could use a blasting cap.

23 Q. Did he indicate whether there was a formula how many

24 blasting caps you would need versus the cord?

25 A. Yes, he did. I believe it was one blasting cap for 5


1689

12slbin2

Anticev - direct

1 kilos of TNT.

2 Q. And did Odeh indicate to you any of the properties of TNT,

3 what you could do with TNT if you were using it to make a

4 bomb?

5 A. He said that you can actually melt TNT by heat, but that

6 it has to be done outside because of the fumes. He also

7 stated that you can use -- with TNT you can use metal, it's

8 called a shape charge, where you put the metal around the TNT

9 so when it goes off, all the force of the blast you can aim

10 the -- you can actually aim the force in one direction.

11 Q. Did he talk to you about different types of detonators?

12 A. Yes. He said he was familiar with three types of

13 detonators: electrical detonator, mechanical and a fuse.

14 Q. Did he indicate which one was the best one to use for a

15 particular type of operation?

16 A. The best type is to use either an electrical detonator or

17 a mechanical detonator that would, what he described as

18 command detonate, where you can command detonate actually

19 yourself.


55/157

20 Q. During the course of the interviews, is it fair to say

21 that Odeh told you that he did not know in advance that the

22 bombing would happen?

23 A. Yes, that's fair to say.

24 Q. Did he indicate to you during the course of the interviews

25 how he thinks the bombing was done and who he thought did it?


1690

12slbin2

Anticev - direct

1 A. Well, I --

2 Q. Let me make that two questions. Did he indicate during

3 the course of the interview who he thought had bombed the

4 American Embassy?

5 A. That his cell, Saleh and company.

6 Q. Did he indicate who he thought had built the bomb and

7 where?

8 A. He thought that it was Harun and Abdel Rahman building the

9 bomb at Harun's house.

10 Q. That would be the bomb of the American Embassy in Nairobi?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did he indicate who he thought built the bomb for the

13 embassy in Tanzania?

14 A. He made a statement that he believed that Abdel Rahman

15 could have built that one, too.

16 Q. During the course of the interview, did Odeh indicate to

17 you how he thought one could get explosives into Nairobi?

18 A. Yes. He gave us a situation where explosives could be

19 smuggled into Nairobi in boxes of lobsters.


56/157

20 Q. Did he indicate that in fact it was smuggled that way, or

21 is that his indication of how they could have been smuggled?

22 A. Could have been smuggled.

23 Q. Did Odeh during the interviews make comments to you what

24 he thought of the actual bombing and how it was carried out?

25 A. He thought it was a blunder. He blamed Saleh for making a


1691

12slbin2

Anticev - direct

1 big mistake. He didn't like the fact that so many civilians

2 and Kenyans were killed. He said that the bombing of Khobar

3 Towers was a hundred times better and that the individuals who

4 had the, who drove the truck with the explosives should have

5 got it into the building or died trying.

6 MR. FITZGERALD: Before we continue, I think you were

7 going to give an instruction.

8 THE COURT: With respect to the Khobar matter, the

9 parties have stipulated that no defendants are charged with

10 participating in the Khobar bombing or in conspiring with

11 respect thereto.

12 That's a stipulation.

13 MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Judge.

14 BY MR. FITZGERALD:

15 Q. Did Odeh tell you what he thought, how he thought the

16 mistake had been made with regard to the bombing that caused

17 so many civilians to be killed?

18 A. Well, one, they couldn't get it into the building and,

19 two, the bomb was in the back of a pickup truck. So, you

20 imagine how a pickup truck is. The bomb is in the back. He


57/157

21 said that the truck should have been backed into the target

22 closely, okay, because the cab in front would act as a

23 diversion for the explosion.

24 So what actually happened is the truck came in nose

25 first and when the bomb went off, he said that the force of


1692

12slbin2

Anticev - direct

1 the explosion actually ricocheted for a second off the cab,

2 which diverted the explosion and caused so much more damage in

3 the area.

4 Q. So we're clear, what he's telling is you what he thinks

5 the mistakes were that were made that would have caused the

6 buildings nearby to be hit by the bomb explosion?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. During the time that you interviewed Mr. Odeh, did he

9 indicate to you why it was that he was talking to you?

10 A. Yes. He stated that the reason he was talking to us now

11 was because the people that he was with were pushing him and

12 pushing him and pushing him and they're all gone and he's left

13 here facing big problems.

14 Q. And then two last questions. During the time that you

15 spoke to Mr. Odeh did he ever talk about a person by the name

16 of Fawwaz? Fawwaz?

17 A. Fawwaz.

18 Q. If you recall.

19 A. I know that he did, but I don't recall.

20 Q. During the time that you spoke to him, did Odeh indicate


58/157

21 whether or not he was aware of a search conducted of a house

22 in Nairobi prior to 1998? Just yes or no.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did he indicate to you who the person that was present,

25 present in the house at the time of the search, whether there


1693

12slbin2

Anticev - direct

1 was a man present?

2 A. Yes, there was.

3 Q. Can you indicate the name of the man?

4 A. Mohamed Karama.

5 Q. K-A-R-A-M-A?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. FITZGERALD: If I may have one moment, your

9 Honor.

10 (Pause)

11 MR. FITZGERALD: Nothing further, Judge.

12 THE COURT: We'll take our recess at this point.

13 (Jury not present)

14 THE COURT: Who will conduct the cross?

15 MR. WILFORD: Mr. Ricco.

16 THE COURT: Mr. Ricco.

17 Do other counsel intend to cross?

18 MR. COHN: I have to talk to Mr. Ricco about that.

19 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, on behalf of Mr. Khalfan

20 Mohamed, we do not intend to cross-examine this witness.


59/157

21 MR. DRATEL: If we do, it will just be a couple of

22 questions.

23 THE COURT: All right.

24 MR. COHN: I will not. I have just spoken to

25 Mr. Ricco. I will not cross.


1694

12slbin2

Anticev - direct

1 THE COURT: All right. We'll take a recess.

2 (Recess)

3


5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

united states v. bin laden - day 12 transcript

Documents