unravelling the clanbooks

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V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by Zounds[I can't quite believe that this hasn't been done already, but if it has been, I can't find it...] So. All five V:tR clanbooks are out. They're beautiful. They're wonderfully written. And all five of them are packed with lies. Some of the lies are trivial. Some are undetectable. But some are neither. Those are the fun bits. Scattered across all five books are snippents of information that add up to a rather wonderful tapestry: the 'real story' going on in the background. I think I've figured out some of it, but I'm sure there's plenty I've overlooked, either through not having read enough V:tR material or just not paying close enough attention. So: I'm going to lay out what I've got so far, and hopefully the rest of you fine folk will be able to show me what I've missed. I apologise for the length of this, but theres a huge amount of information to cover WH/Willy/Master West: The shadowy commissioner of the Clanbooks. We cant actually be sure that theyve all been commissioned by the same person: but WH (who CB: Ventrue goes to) and Willy (who CB: Daeva goes to) seems a bit of a coincidence; we know that Does boss (who CB: Mekhet is for) has other people out working for him; Nicodemus, who writes CB: Nosferatu, is also sent by WH to collaborate with VT on the writing of CB: Ventrue; and as its clear from CB: Ventrue that WH is working with Hardaiken, it seems probable that hes the one Hardaiken sends CB: Gangrel to, as well. VT thinks hes Ventrue; TW thinks hes Daeva, but learns hes wrong; Nicodemus thinks hes Nosferatu. Hes probably actually Mekhet. WHs primary purpose seems to be to learn about the looming threat of the Strix, who appear frequently in all five Clanbooks. Does anyone know who WH actually is? Has he appeared in some other V:tR supplement somewhere? VT seems to think hell want to know about the fact that Carlyle used to call himself Numitor, if thats any help VT: The editor of CB: Ventrue, and apparently a Ventrue himself. (Someone please tell me that his initials dont stand for Vlad Tepes) He collaborates with Nicodemus and Hardaiken to put the book together; but by the time hes finished, hes worked out that the Ventrue arent what they claim to be, that hes probably only written this book because WH has mind-controlled him into doing so, and that something horrible is coming to exterminate his entire clan, and possibly the Kindred in general. As of the present, he wants nothing further to do with WH. TW/The Old Bat: A Daeva of the Moretti bloodline, the childe of their American founder, the torpid elder Marissa. With the assistance of Felix, Ayesha, and Frances, he assembles CB: Daeva as a family album, in preparation for his own descent into torpor; but just before sinking into sleep, he discovers that the cousin hed been intending to send it to is, in fact, no kin of his, just a shadow, a W -: presumably this is WH. He passes it instead to his new childe, but it finds its way to WH anyway after Ayeshas lover Cat breaks into TWs haven and sends it to him. TW is now either in torpor, or staked/destroyed by Cat.

Ayesha: TWs childe, a Daeva; long-time RPGnetters will recognise her as the girl who played bass, from the incomparable Never Let Go actual play. Shes a writer for The Cacophony, the kindred underground journalism network. In CB: Daeva, TW sends her to a nameless city run by The Spaniards, to retrieve the Glass Armonium, which has been looted from post-Katrina New Orleans by his other childe, Felix. Ayesha finds the Armonium and Felix, and leaves town; she is then either staked or killed by TW, who obtains various data from her computer with the help of Felix and Frances. Cat: Ayesha's lover, who connives with TW (for reasons that are unclear to me - can anyone suggest anything?) to ensure that she goes to find the Armonium, and then demands her return after he 'disappears' her. Ultimately she breaks into TW's haven, presumably stakes or kills his new childe (and maybe TW and Marissa as well), steals CB: Daeva, and sends it to WH, hoping that he will restore Ayesha to her in return. Felix: Officially, another of TWs childer; according to The Count, however, hes actually an ancient elder who was unearthed by TW, and then proceeded to rewrite his memories so that the Old Bat would believe hed sired him. Felix is one of the stars of the Black Blood novel in CB: Daeva, which he may actually have written. He retrieved the Glass Armonium from New Orleans, and arranged to be shipped with it to the Spaniards; unfortunately for him, Ayesha killed his allies and left him stranded with that Armonium, and its only by calling on the assistance of Count Dracula that hes able to escape the vampires who capture him. He and Dracula proceed to kill everyone, and drop the Armonium off at the house where Alices relatives are held captive, in Hardaikens city; they then get caught, tell Hardaiken what theyve been doing, and then kill everyone and escape. Felix present location is unknown. Count Dracula: The Count does not do drugs. Alice Sewell: A Gangrel neonate blackmailed into compiling CB: Gangrel by someone kidnapping her family. The kidnapper must be working for either TW or WH, as theyre held at the house where Felix (presumably on TWs instructions) drops off the Glass Armonium; the kidnapper may, in fact, be the Worm Lord, given that he apparently gains possession of the Armonium after its dropped off there. Once she has completed her task, she goes to the house to rejoin her relatives, but finds everyone already dead, apparently killed by the Strix; she Embraces her nephew, Little Jack, and frenzies off into the night, taking the book with her. She ultimately abandons it on the corpse of one of the Worm Lords thugs, where Hardaiken finds it and sends it on, presumably to WH. Shes presumably still ravening away somewhere. Frances Black: Deliberately made into a Hollow Mekhet by Doe, Frances compiles CB: Mekhet. She helps TW to compile CB: Daeva, and he sends her the Glass Armonium, which she plays in order to access the memories of its creator and the race-memories of the Mekhet; she then sends these memories to her collaborator, Niall Walker, in New Orleans. Ultimately she double-crosses Doe, goes above his head to WH, sells him/her out, joins the Moulding Room, and leaves London to lead a Moulding Room cult somewhere else. She presumably still owns the Glass Armonium. Still, it is apparently Doe who sends CB: Mekhet to WH, so he/she is apparently not immediately destroyed by her revenge. Doe: Actually a French Mekhet elder named Jean/Jeanne, of uncertain gender and no true identity. Doe creates Frances to compile CB: Mekhet, presumably for WH. He/she was also a

witness to the creation of the Glass Armonium in pre-Revolutionary France. Despite being double-crossed by WH, Doe does send him CB: Mekhet. Its not clear what, if anything, has happened to Doe as a result of Frances betrayal. Nicodemus: An Edinburgh-based Nosferatu scholar, author of CB: Nosferatu and collaborator on CB: Ventrue. He travels to Hardaikens city, where Violet Waldrop gives him some very heavy hints about whats really happening there, hints to which he appears to remain oblivious. The Worm Lord, who wants to obtain CB: Gangrel, gives him the Glass Armonium, and sends him to the house where Alices relatives are being held; he arrives just in time to see her embrace Little Jack, whom he adopts. He sends CB: Nosferatu on to Master West presumably WH and must then pass the Armonium on to TW, either directly or via the Worm Lord, so that it can be sent to Frances in London. The War Pig / The Black Prince / The Masques / The Dead Lieutenant / Jack Nasty: A large group of Nosferatu in Hardaikens city, acting out a very complex ploy to help them retain power permanently. One of them is probably the citys previous Nosferatu prince, who faked his own death. There are many, many clues in CB: Nosferatu that The Black Prince is basically a fictional character, that the war between her and The War Pig is an invention to allow the clan to better secure its grip on power, that The Dead Lieutenant is a role taken on by any number of different Nosferatu at the same time, etc. Essentially, the way the game seems to work is this: an unknown number of Nosferatu, probably operating out of the ancient Undertown whose very existence they have managed to conceal, take on the roles of Prince, Masque, Dead Lieutenant, and/or Jack Nasty, depending on who needs to be where, when. The War Pig and The Black Prince may well be the same person, at least some of the time: a Baddacelli Nosferatu who uses his/her powers of mimicry to enhance his/her disguise, and who may also have a stable of captive ghosts at their command. Their apparent dissention is in fact concealed unity, their civil war merely a ruse to allow them to clean house and gain access to the Worm Lords underworld. Violet Waldrop: A socialite embraced by an unknown Nosferatu. Presently working with/for The Black Prince, although she seems to keep trying to pass information on to Nicodemus that will help him work out whats really going on. Charles Hardaiken: A Ventrue, and the Black Princes sheriff; long-term RPGnetters will be amused to learn that hes also The Cowboy, Frankies sire from Never Let Go. (Although, for some reason, Frankies calling herself Jordan these days.) On VT/WHs behalf, he investigates at arms length a series of ritual murders performed by a Malkavia-crazed Ventrue to protect herself from the returning Strix, and sends a Ventrue neonate off to meet his ancestors, who are also under attack from the Strix: all part of WHs attempt to learn about whats coming. He is captured and tortured by the War Pig, and demonstrates that he has no real idea whats happening in his city. When he escapes, WH is the first person he calls. The Strix: The Strix are the owl-witches of the ancient world: they possess people and vampires, eat their souls, and perform acts of unspeakable horror. They may have created the first Daeva. They may share a common origin with the Gangrel, avian where they are bestial. They have had a grudge against the Ventrue for about three thousand years. In Ancient Rome, they should have destroyed the Ventrue; but somehow, through manipulation of the seven Perfecti, the Ventrue were able to channel them towards the Dead Julii instead. The Julii were exterminated; but now the Strix are coming back, and they dont intend to make

the same mistake twice. The Dead Girl believed that she could protect herself from them through mass ritual murder of women and girls, but she may just be crazy. Clan Ventrue: Clan Ventrue is the one clan with a proper history. Its all lies. The Ventrue are lords of beasts, but theyve spent the last 1500 years since the fall of the Dead Julii, the true Lords pretending they are and always have been lords of men, instead. They claim the Gangrel are a degenerate offshoot of the Ventrue, but in fact the opposite is probably the case, and they are exactly what the Julii thought they were: a bunch of barbarian monsters, kin to the Strix who so desperately want them dead. Everything else is self-serving propaganda designed to obscure their guilt for the destruction of the Dead Julii and their usurpation of their vacant throne. wow. 2,000 words on, I think thats everything Ive got. So what have I missed? Who are The Spaniards? What are The Perfecti? What are VT and WH's real names? Who is D.A. Evans? Someone out there must have enough V:tR lore at their fingertips to answer...

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by WoodAbout the parts I wrote in Clanbook Mekhet that you reference here. You have nearly all the pieces. I was very impressed. Originally Posted by Zounds! Frances Black: Deliberately made into a Hollow Mekhet by Doe, Frances compiles CB: Mekhet. She helps TW to compile CB: Daeva, and he sends her the Glass Armonium, which she plays in order to access the memories of its creator and the race-memories of the Mekhet; she then sends these memories to her collaborator, Niall Walker, in New Orleans. Ultimately she double-crosses Doe, goes above his head to WH, sells him/her out, joins the Moulding Room, and leaves London to lead a Moulding Room cult somewhere else. She presumably still owns the Glass Armonium. Still, it is apparently Doe who sends CB: Mekhet to WH, so he/she is apparently not immediately destroyed by her revenge. A Nosferatu came in the box that contained the Armonium. This may or may not have been Nicodemus (the Nosferatu had the Armonium before Frances; Ayesha and the Bat get the Nosferatu to send it to Frances). Still, the Predator's Taint made all that go pear-shaped, what with her accidental assassination of said agent. Doe: Actually a French Mekhet elder named Jean/Jeanne, of uncertain gender and no true identity. Doe creates Frances to compile CB: Mekhet, presumably for WH. He/she was also a witness to the creation of the Glass Armonium in pre-Revolutionary France. Despite being double-crossed by WH, Doe does send him CB: Mekhet. Its not clear what, if anything, has happened to Doe as a result of Frances betrayal. Before he/she was Jean/Jeanne, Doe was actually also Robin Deere, a member of the Moirai. Which is why he/she was so interested in the document What happens to Doe? That's left open. But Frances is out of Doe's power. Frances escaped, and Doe cannot reach her.

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by Russel BaileyWow, good job. A couple points I'll mention: - "TW" stands for a name that's in the books elsewhere, and it's also the first two letters in a set of initials that might explain a lot. - VT is exaggerating his lordliness, just like many of his clanmates. Look for him in an unlikely place. - You're missing at least one Nicodemus appearance, although it doesn't change much. - Felix was not a new character in the clanbooks. - Like a lot of mysteries, what's actually going on is much more straightforward than the clues you'll use to figure it out. Think Brick.

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by Bailingsworth Mathew WolfThe thing to remember about Felix, the most important bit, is that he lies all the time. -B

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by WoodFelix is Russell Bailey's creation. Russell wrote the Byzantium chapter in Fall of the Camarilla. That's all.

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by BailingsworthOriginally Posted by Christian A Did you happen to work on Night Horrors: Immortal Sinners? Perhaps... -B

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by ZoundsOriginally Posted by Wood Before he/she was Jean/Jeanne, Doe was actually also Robin Deere, a member of the Moirai. Which is why he/she was so interested in the document. OK. I've got this one now. Robin Deere ---> Jeanne Deere ---> Jane Doe. That's awful. So Doe's Moirai; and according to the rumours in CB: Nosferatu, the Worm Lord may well be affiliated with them, too. (Given that they recruit Daeva as well as Mekhet, maybe his lover, Penny Reflex, is an initiate? If so, how many of her Daeva 'relatives' - the Old Bat, Ayesha, even Felix - could be members as well? Given that she used to be the consort of the Black Prince, could the Undertown Nosferatu also be linked in? But this is getting fanciful, and straying increasingly far from the actual evidence.) In fact, the entire Clanbook project could easily be part of the broader Moirai agenda - which would explain Doe's willingness to continue to contribute to it even after WH betrays him. WH could even be one of those 'masters who are even more mystery to him than his own self.' Haven't found TW or VT yet. Still looking...

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by ZoundsOriginally Posted by Emprint - "TW" stands for a name that's in the books elsewhere, and it's also the first two letters in a set of initials that might explain a lot. ...TWILIGHT? As in TF: Valkyrie's TWILIGHT? But that makes no sense. I'll keep looking. Originally Posted by Emprint - VT is exaggerating his lordliness, just like many of his clanmates. Look for him in an unlikely place. Wait a minute... ...Viktor Trepan? The fucking WAR PIG wrote CB: Ventrue? I've just checked, and he never actually says he's Ventrue, although he does refer to the clan's history as 'our history' in one of his marginal notes. He's in the same city as Hardaiken, and Jordan writes to him asking about her sire. If he is VT, then that strengthens the Moirai Conspiracy Theory, because one of the rumours about him is that he discovered the Prince serves an uncannily alert and active ancient, and one of the talents of the Moirai is said to be the ability to resist the Fog of Ages. But for now, it's just a hypothesis. I'll keep an eye out for supporting evidence. Also: Nicodemus suggests that the Worm Lord's worship of a single Weaver would suggest 'we are existing in circles and whorls, that despite our individual faces many of us are one'.

This is obviously a reference both to the Undertown Nosferatu scam, and the closing circle of Kindred history which the return of the Strix represent. But it's also right under a picture of Penny Reflex - the only picture - which shows her with whorls and spirals tattooed up her arms. A cryptic hint that she's Moirai? Or have I just started reading far too much into things?

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by ZoundsOriginally Posted by SJE Not having the books- who is the Worm Lord then? The Worm Lord: Grotesque Nosferatu crime lord and information dealer living beneath the streets of Hardaiken's city, in an underworld he calls Avernus. His lover is a Daeva called Penny Reflex, one of the Old Bat's lineage, and previously romantically linked to the Black Prince. He is rumoured to worship one of the Fates, and may thus be connected to the Moirai. He assists Nicodemus with the compilation of CB: Nosferatu, and requests that he try to get CB: Gangrel from Alice; later, one of his minions may make another attempt, as Alice ultimately leaves CB: Gangrel on the thug's corpse. The Worm Lord is collecting information on other major Nosferatu necropoli, possibly as preperation for an attack on his rivals. As of the present, the War Pig has gained access to Avernus for himself and a few others. Oh, and false alarm with VT. It's just Vincent Temple, isn't it? The resurrectionist from CB: Daeva. That makes much more sense, and explains his interest in the whole Unbroken Chain project he gets Hardaiken to organise in CB: Ventrue. Oh well...

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by EmprintOriginally Posted by DSPaul The only "TW" name I could find in the clanbooks was Tybalt Wyatt, of the Cockscombs -but the Old Bat's definitely a Daeva, so that can't be it. I don't have any clues about the initials, either. Anybody in the know care to drop another hint? I should have dropped that hint a little differently. "TW" begins an acronym for something a lot of people would recognize. It's not a name from Vampire: The Requiem.

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by Marquis-de-CarabasOriginally Posted by Wood Felix is Russell Bailey's creation. Russell wrote the Byzantium chapter in Fall of the Camarilla. That's all.

There's a Felix in Byzantium. Speaker of the Mekhet. A Khaibit.

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by Will HindmarchThis is intriguing. The WH, VT, and Nicodemus characters I had in mind when I wrote Ventrue were either never communicated to the later authors, or were overridden by the later authors (as was their right). But it's worth noting that portions of Ventrue were written with ideas in mind that were supplanted later. Perhaps this is fitting, considering the amount of Dominate in use throughout Lords Over the Damned. The relationship I'd hoped for between the Kindred at large and the master patron behind the clan books doesn't seem to have made it into the final works. I had much more conflict with the Masquerade in mind since the clan books would be very dangerous artifacts in the hands of say... hunters. (Or even mere blackmailers.) They were just waiting to fall into the wrong hands and breach the Masquerade. For sure, the figure behind the creation of the clan books was meant to be working against individuals who didn't want to see them made. (H:TV was due out the summer that the clan books would be part way through their release. I'd hoped the clan books could be seen as artifacts for a Hunter game, too. For sure, I encourage players to think of them as such and see what happens.) All that said, I think the clan book authors did an absolutely stellar job of tying the books together without restricting their freedom to move. If that metaphor makes any sense. Cheers, Will

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by ZoundsWell, seeing as this thread has resurfaced, I guess I'd better update some of the entries to take the new material - like the fact the whole clanbook project may well be a huge Hunter conspiracy - into account... WH/Willy/Master West: The shadowy commissioner of the Clanbooks. The initials probably stand for 'Wilhemina Harker', though that could be a pseudonym rather than a suggestion that there are Dracula characters running around the NWoD. (Although if Dracula and Carmilla exist in-setting, why not Wilhemina?)We cant actually be sure that theyve all been commissioned by the same person: but WH (who CB: Ventrue goes to) and Willy (who CB: Daeva goes to) seems a bit of a coincidence; we know that Does boss (who CB: Mekhet is for) has other people out working for them; Nicodemus, who writes CB: Nosferatu, is also sent by WH to collaborate with VT on the writing of CB: Ventrue; and as its clear from CB: Ventrue that WH is working with Hardaiken, it seems probable that shes the one Hardaiken sends CB: Gangrel to, as well. VT thinks theyre Ventrue; TW thinks theyre Daeva, but learns hes wrong; Nicodemus thinks they're Nosferatu. Theyre probably actually

Mekhet, and may be a member of the Moirai. VT: The editor of CB: Ventrue, and apparently a Ventrue himself. Almost certainly Vincent Temple, the Resurrectionist who appears in CB: Daeva, discussing his research on ancient vampires who have recently risen from torpor; thus his interest in Hardaiken's 'unbroken chain' project. He collaborates with Nicodemus and Hardaiken to put the book together; but by the time hes finished, hes worked out that the Ventrue arent what they claim to be, that hes probably only written this book because WH has mind-controlled him into doing so, and that something horrible is coming to exterminate his entire clan, and possibly the Kindred in general. As of the present, he wants nothing further to do with WH. TW/The Old Bat: A Daeva of the Moretti bloodline, the childe of their American founder, the torpid elder Marissa. With the assistance of Felix, Ayesha, and Frances, he assembles CB: Daeva as a family album, in preparation for his own descent into torpor; but just before sinking into sleep, he discovers that the cousin hed been intending to send it to is, in fact, no kin of his, just a shadow, a W -: presumably this is WH. He passes it instead to his new childe, but it finds its way to WH anyway after Ayeshas lover Cat breaks into TWs haven and sends it to them. TW is now either in torpor, or staked/destroyed by Cat. It has been implied (in this thread) that TW is the first two letters in 'TWILIGHT', the espionage wing of TF: VALKYRIE who appear briefly in CB: Nosferatu. I'm not entirely sure what to make of this, frankly, as the Old Bat's motivation doesn't appear to be to pass on information on his kin to mortal hunters. (Unless he's lying about everything...) It is, however, possible that WH is involved with TWILIGHT: in Dracula, Mina is, after all, crucial to the Count's destruction. If this is the case, then by the 'present' TWILIGHT has all five Clanbooks, and enough information to roll up any number of vampire organisations. Felix: Officially, another of TWs childer; according to The Count, however, hes actually an ancient elder who was unearthed by TW, and then proceeded to rewrite his memories so that the Old Bat would believe hed sired him. In all probability, he is Felix of Byzantium, a 2,000-year-old Khaibat Mekhet, about whom I'd like to learn more. (He's not connected to the Morai, is he?) His meddling could be one of the reasons why the Byzantium archives mentioned in CB: Ventrue are in such a state, and why they contradict other records elsewhere. Felix is one of the stars of the Black Blood novel in CB: Daeva, which - perhaps symbolically - shows him obliterating the proof of vampiric origins: a reference to his role in covering up his own true origins, or a hint that he's engaged in much more substantial historical vandalism? (What did the Byzantium archives say before he got his claws into them?) Felix retrieved the Glass Armonium from New Orleans, and arranged to be shipped with it to the Spaniards; unfortunately for him, Ayesha killed his allies and left him stranded with that Armonium, and its only by calling on the assistance of Count Dracula that hes able to escape the vampires who capture him. He and Dracula proceed to kill everyone, and drop the Armonium off at the house where Alices relatives are held captive, in Hardaikens city; they then get caught, tell Hardaiken what theyve been doing, and then kill everyone and escape. Felix present location is unknown. Doe: A Mekhet elder, at least 500 years old, and a confirmed member of the Moirai. As Robin Deere, he was active in Elizabethan England; he subsequently moved to ancien regime France, where his identity began to blur, and he became known as Jean/Jeanne. He served the

Duc, sire of the Glass Armonium's creator, before his destruction by the Chevalier. Doe creates Frances to compile CB: Mekhet, presumably for WH. Despite being double-crossed by WH, Doe does send him CB: Mekhet, presumably because it still serves the purposes of the Moirai for him to do so. Its not clear what, if anything, has happened to Doe as a result of Frances betrayal. Nicodemus: An Edinburgh-based Nosferatu scholar, at least 300 years old, author of CB: Nosferatu and collaborator on CB: Ventrue. According to CB: Daeva, he owned some of Le Fanu's papers, relating to the writing of Carmilla. He travels to Hardaikens city, where Violet Waldrop gives him some very heavy hints about whats really happening there, hints to which he appears to remain oblivious. The Worm Lord, who wants to obtain CB: Gangrel, gives him the Glass Armonium, and sends him to the house where Alices relatives are being held; he arrives just in time to see her embrace Little Jack, whom he adopts. He sends CB: Nosferatu on to Master West presumably WH and must then pass the Armonium on to TW, either directly or via the Worm Lord, so that it can be sent to Frances in London. When the War Pig stages his coup, Nicodemus arranges to be shipped back to the UK with the Armonium, but he frenzies on seeing Frances and ends up getting killed in the ensuing struggle. The Worm Lord: Grotesque Nosferatu crime lord and information dealer living beneath the streets of Hardaiken's city, in an underworld he calls Avernus. His lover is a Daeva called Penny Reflex, one of the Old Bat's lineage, and previously romantically linked to the Black Prince. He is rumoured to worship one of the Fates, and may thus be connected to the Moirai, of which Penny may be a full member. (They take Daeva too!) He assists Nicodemus with the compilation of CB: Nosferatu, and requests that he try to get CB: Gangrel from Alice; later, one of his minions may make another attempt, as Alice ultimately leaves CB: Gangrel on the thug's corpse. The Worm Lord is collecting information on other major Nosferatu necropoli, possibly as preperation for an attack on his rivals. As of the present, the War Pig has gained access to Avernus for himself and a few others. And one new entry: Clan Mekhet: In case it needs to be spelled out, the origin story in CB: Mekhet - with Akenaten and so on - is all lies. Frances Black witnesses the moment of its invention in Ancient Egypt during her past-life regression. The Mekhet are actually much older, and probably actually pre-human. Oh, and the Cult of Seth was originally the other half of the Ascending Ones from H:tV. More information still gratefully received! Neall: I'm curious. What form would an 'Annotated Clanbook' take? Page-by-page references?

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by WoodOriginally Posted by Zounds!

Clan Mekhet: In case it needs to be spelled out, the origin story in CB: Mekhet - with Akenaten and so on - is all lies. Frances Black witnesses the moment of its invention in Ancient Egypt during her past-life regression. Well spotted.

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by EmprintTW is not TWILIGHT. Keep swinging, boys.

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by Will HindmarchThere's no official crossover between the books and one of the other game lines, to the best of my knowledge. I just thought the very idea of cataloging Kindred culture, as the clan books do, would be an obvious clash against the masquerade. So then you ask yourself the classic detective question: Who benefits? Who benefits from a portable, plain-English, tell-all breach of the Masquerade? And the answer comes back, "Not the Kindred." I'd intended, when I wrote Ventrue, to milk the fear that the clan books were commissioned by someone without the Kindred's best interests in mind, whether that's a hunter or not. As for where hints point, I think it's fair to speculate the whole World of Darkness was fair game for the writers, but I'm not trying to point toward one line in particular. Rather, I'm just hoping to inspire y'all to consider consequences and nuances beyond the permeable barriers of the Vampire game line alone. Now, if I can get some Hunter fans to find new value in the clan books, then huzzah, etc. Put another way, a lot of what I thought I was alluding to when I wrote Ventrue got overridden (or overwritten) by later writers which was their right, being the later writers in that exquisite corpse of a project. So what I set out to do matters less than what the later writers actually did. I'm just saying. Cheers, Will

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by WoodOriginally Posted by Word There's no official crossover between the books and one of the other game lines, to the best of my knowledge. Although, having said that, Mr. Theleme from Hunter and Lucy Sulphate and Catesby from some of the Mage books make appearances in the Mekhet clanbook, and Frances pops up in a Hunter book.

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by BaileywolfOriginally Posted by Wood Although, having said that, Mr. Theleme from Hunter and Lucy Sulphate and Catesby from some of the Mage books make appearances in the Mekhet clanbook, and Frances pops up in a Hunter book. And I try and get at least a hint of Felix into anything they let me touch... -B

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by SuitcladHey, sorry I'm a little late to the party. The combination of a thread devoted to Unraveling the Clan Book Mysteries and a comparison to Brick (props Emprint) made me decide to make an account and put my two cents in, for what they're worth. I figured I'd go ahead and compile every little fact about our mysterious TW I could gleam, both from the Clan Books themselves and this thread (re: the subtle fragrance of a hint to a clue some of the writers threw our way) :P This will be a bit more detail, and probably more than needed, but maybe it'll cause a light bulb moment for someone. And I could be completely inaccurate, but I will try. He's from Paris, and traveled to Canterbury, London, and New York (where he was sired?). He's been around "some hundred years" as a ghoul to the Kindred who would be his sire, Marissa. Has, or believes he has, two childes. Ayesha and Felix (who we've learned is not really his). It's implied he's willing to hurt mortals to get his way, even if said mortal is his childe's lover, and to kill the very same childe. He's a member of the Moretti bloodline, and at the end of CB: Daeva goes into torpor, leaving behind another childe. Also, apparently the initials T.W. start an acronym that is some WoD books, but not Requiem. Now, anyone other than me vote we get one more slight nudge in the right direction?

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by ZoundsOriginally Posted by Word There's no official crossover between the books and one of the other game lines, to the best of my knowledge. ...although the Hunter groups Aeigs Kai Doru, Network Zero, The Cheiron Group, The Tribulation Militia, Ashwood Abbey, and probably some others I can't recall just now all put in appearances at various points in the Clanbooks... Originally Posted by Suitclad

He's from Paris, and traveled to Canterbury, London, and New York (where he was sired?). He's been around "some hundred years" as a ghoul to the Kindred who would be his sire, Marissa. Has, or believes he has, two childes. Ayesha and Felix (who we've learned is not really his). It's implied he's willing to hurt mortals to get his way, even if said mortal is his childe's lover, and to kill the very same childe. He's a member of the Moretti bloodline, and at the end of CB: Daeva goes into torpor, leaving behind another childe. Additionally: he's known as 'The Old Bat', which has to be some kind of clue. He's in correspondence with other Kindred scholars in Europe (including Frances) about the history of the Daeva. Like Temple, he's foolish/arrogant enough not to let sleeping elders lie. Alice Sewell owes him and his a favour, although I'm not sure for what. Just before going into Torpor, he was associating with the exiled Invictus kindred (The Duchess, etc) who used to rule the city from which Ayesha retrieves the Armonium, until they were kicked out by the Spaniards. And he loves doing Gatsby impressions. Also, apparently the initials T.W. start an acronym that is some WoD books, but not Requiem. I think the hint is that it's something from the world in general, rather than the WoD: '"TW" begins an acronym for something a lot of people would recognize.'

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by PraetorianOriginally Posted by Zounds! I can't really put it any more succinctly than 'see: Clanbook Ventrue', because that's what most of it's about, one way or another. Simple version: the Ventrue claim that they've always been lords of the night, since forever, and that the Ancient Roman vampires just 'mysteriously and inexplicably failed to notice them' until the fall of Rome. But actually, they're barbarian vampires, kin to the Gangrel, masters of beasts rather than men. The Strix (who CB: Gangrel suggests share a common origin with the Gangrel/Ventrue) have had a grudge against them for millennia (mythologised in Official Ventrue History as the wrath of the Furies unleashed against them by Juno after the Fall of Troy), but somehow - by manipulating the 'seven Perfecti' - the Ventrue were able to trick the Strix into exterminating the Julii instead. Except now the Strix are back, as they say, with a vengeance. So, the Ventrue, Gangrel and Strix may all come from the same ancestor/root. And the Julii, which (on the surface) look and act similar to Ventrue (actually vice versa), come from a different source. In the chaos of the fall of Rome and the extermination of the Julii, the Ventrue stepped up, and took the Julii's vampiric social niche and redefined themselves as more refined creatures. Hm. The Strix are more and more Nicktuku-like, though in this case, they hunt the ventrue, not the Nos.

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!)Originally Posted by Praetorian Of course, if the Strix really want all Vampires dead, then they start to infringe a bit on VII's niche... though VII as the front for the Strix could work nicely.

There's hints of that, too, as it happens, mostly in CB: Ventrue. Where the Strix are 'the seventh' (five clans + Dead Julii + Strix = 7), linked to the 'seven perfecti', and where it's unclear whether the Ventrue lineage in 'The Unbroken Chain' is under attack from Strix, VII, or both. Given that VII themselves have no fixed status in the V:tR setting, I guess 'VII are/are working for the Strix' is as valid a possibility as any of those found in the VII book itself.

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by Will HindmarchWarning: Once again, a lot of this is material that I wrote into Ventrue but which is subject to individual interpretation. I'm not telling how it is, I'm telling you what I was after when I wrote some of the book. Originally Posted by Zounds! Given that VII themselves have no fixed status in the V:tR setting, I guess 'VII are/are working for the Strix' is as valid a possibility as any of those found in the VII book itself. I wrote at least two possible VII hints into the outline for Requiem for Rome, with the expectation that people would find them easily, given the whole, uh, Roman numeral thing. One of them is that, when you count the number of clans after Requiem for Rome is done rewriting history, you end up with seven. I always liked the idea that what VII was doing was reminding (or demanding the Kindred to remember) that there are VII clans... not five. "Remember, remember," is what they're saying when they paint the Roman numerals on the wall in spent, sticky ash. As for truths in Ventrue, I maintain (though the other writers will probably disagree with me), that the Ven have their timeline about right they went from being masters of humans to being masters of beasts and barbarians, to reclaiming their status as lords over both humans and the Damned after Rome created the power vacuum they'd been waiting for (and for which they held quite a grudge, from long before). If you look at the timeline, the Julii and the Ven are both direct descendants of the vampires that fled Troy the lares and genii (or geniuses) of Troy. So we get the twin motif again, and the question of who is older and who inherits what. But we also see that the Ven essentially are uninterrupted descendants of the lares, which means they are as much gods as the Julii were. Neither the Julii nor the Ven really leads to the other. The line diverged into two, and one of those two lines (the Julii) died out. The Ven, thus, continue to see themselves as survivors and quite cunning ones, too, for managing to avoid all the chaos and annihilation that came with Rome and the Camarilla. The Ventrue history may dramatize some of that, but if you zoom out and look at it again, it's a tale of "gods" battling for the right to control humans, and it's about how power (and Dominate) means that if you tell a story right... it becomes the truth. What's literally true matters less than controlling the conversation. So, no, I don't think Ventrue is all lies, any more than any oral history is all lies. But it all from the character profiles to the history and everything in between (like The Sharp, who was cut from the book) *is told to you for a reason other than just giving you facts. And Dominate rightly means that you cannot be sure if anything you think is what you thought

before. Part of living (sic) with the Lords is accepting that you won't always be able to separate truth from lies, or facts from assertions, and that you cannot hope to find peace or solace in things as malleable as answers. Knowing more doesn't necessarily bring the comfort of confidence or certainty. And, of course, the Lords themselves are metaphors. But I've said too much. Cheers, Will

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by EmprintAs for "all lies"... the clanbooks are not all lies. There are reasons to doubt most of the things that they say, but one of the things we were adamant about from the beginning was that the books would be mysterious rather than overly deceptive or cryptic. So, a lot of those things you have a reason to doubt are actually the truth. This is something that goes back to at least when Will was finishing up Ventrue. I remember being in his office and him asking me what the true story behind the Daeva was, and telling me that needed to go in the book. "I can't trust you... you were playing him, so you're a player. With you behind me I'd have to tie one eye up watching both your hands..."

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by Christian AThread necromancy, yay! So I was in a bit of a Vampire mood this week, so I gave the clanbooks a swift reread. And I might have a few thoughts on the story connecting them I'd like to share here: So there's the Mekhet Shadow Cults. They all exist for specific reasons, cults molded to accommodate specific philosophies. Mostly, the humans indoctrinated into these little cults serve as cannon fodder and herd for the Mekhet, but, possibly more important, the Mekhet also play on controlling people by controlling what people believe, because there's no real, direct means the Mekhet get to control living things - unlike the more direct means all other clans have. Mekhet bind men with chains of religion, as Doe (Frances' sire, also Robin Deere of the Moirai, a Mekhet so lost in the shadows that he forgot who he is) puts it. What the Mekhet understand is the underlying truth of this particular practice - information is power. You control people by controlling what they know and what they believe in. Vincent Moon elaborates in more detail on that specific topic in Mekhet, but he's a slippery weasel who obviously has an agenda, so his elaborations are not really all that useful.

Still, understanding what Vincent Moon does - giving Frances information, filling her head with all these little facts that are not always strictly true - is what puts things into context. What's important is that what is told is told for a reason other than to give the reader facts. I was, at this point, reminded of the first interview in the Ventrue clanbook - Carlyle's absolute insistence that his story is told strictly for the purposes of keeping the Ventrue history alive, not because of any less noble purpose on his part. There's a good reason for Carlyle's behaviour. It's the fact that, as Will Hindmarch elaborated on in more detail, more often than not, you can't actually believe a single word a Lord tells you. They can make you forget things. They can give you false memories. They can change your entire personality just by talking to you, and you cannot ever be sure that what you just think is your own thought or what that Ven just forced onto you a minute ago. And this doesn't just apply to the small scale; vampires such as the Mekhet with their cults or the Ven with their mind-bending abilities can change things on the grand scale, too. There's the implication that this happened before in Kindred history, more than once. One of the most prominent creation myths of the Mekhet - the Akhenaton myth, page 55 of the Mekhet clanbook, which also lays the groundwork for the Cult of Set (Followers of Set) and the Cult of the Phoenix (later the Ascended Ones in Hunter: the Vigil) is all lies, as Frances figures out when using the Glass Armonium (page 69). And it's pretty evident that the entire Aeneas myth of the Ven is just that, a myth designed to inflate the role of the Ven, to sell the lie that no, the Ven aren't a weak Gangrel offshot, and yes, they really are the Lords they so desperately want to be. History told for a reason other than to inform. Then there's Felix (from clanbooks Gangrel, Daeva and Fall of the Camarilla, of all places). He's an interesting character. There's evidence that he's old, he's actually a Mekhet Khaibit, really insane and completely untrustworthy. And there's strong implication that he has changed historical records of the Kindred race at least once in his Requiem. He got his hands into the Byzantium Letters. He might also have influenced the Prague Letters, if page 11 of Ventrue is to be believed, and there's no reason not to assume he's pulled this little stunt more often. And what is Felix' little novel in clanbook Daeva, Black Blood, other than an allegoric retelling of the things Felix does - covering up the true origins of one of the five clans by destroying important evidence. You influence the way Kindred think by changing their relationship to their history. There's a lot of the whole theme of changing history and people's perception thereof going around in all of the clanbooks, just look at Konstantin Korab's story in Gangrel, or the Cacophony, or the Moirai or the Atheism bit in Mekhet, etc. The enormity of what the clanbooks stand for didn't occur to me, however, until I've reread one of the bits cut from the Ventrue book, this one. Right on the first page, there's a really important letter from VT (Ventrue resurrectionist Vincent Temple, who had his most promiment role in Daeva) to WH/Master West/Willy, the commissioner of the clanbooks, where he dares to asks the questions that really matter. Who benefits from the clanbooks? Who would want such gigantic Masquerade breaches to exist? The real value, as Temple explains, lies in controlling that information. You have the text, you control the story, you control what vampires believe in and know about themselves

and their history. It's a form of control that's different from the Daeva and Ventrue and Nosferatu ways, even different from the really subtle Shadow Cults of Mekhet, but it's still control, which is what all vampires desire. History that's told not to inform the listener, but to manipulate. So that's that. Sylvain Vioget of the Ventrue bends people to his will. Madiel of the Daeva makes men uncontrollably fall in love with her. The Mekhet create shadowy cults of dependence and exploitation. And the commissioner of the clanbooks, whoever that is, rewrites the entire history of his species. Vampires find their niches. Anyway, yeah, that's my interpretation of this whole glorious mess that the clanbooks are. There's more to them, quite naturally - each of the individual clanbooks gives us real, actual insight on its respective clan; stuff that can help prospective players portray vampire PCs, despite all the lies and misdirection. But this is, I believe, the common plot that ties them all together.

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by CantankerousOriginally Posted by Emprint I'm really surprised nobody's figured this one out yet. I was expecting to get crap about it all over forums when the book came out. Argh. I'd figured: New York and New Orleans: Relevant to Tennessee Williams. And Glass Harmonium ~ Glass Menagerie. ARGH

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by EmprintOriginally Posted by Cantankerous Argh. I'd figured: New York and New Orleans: Relevant to Tennessee Williams. And Glass Harmonium ~ Glass Menagerie. ARGH Think 1976, but the reason I chose it is 1983.

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by EmprintOriginally Posted by Jadasc Well, Interview With The Vampire came out in 1976; The Hunger in 1983.

Two out of three, and you still don't have the acronym. Maybe some bloodline reading is in order.

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by ShawnI'm reading through Daeva, and here are a few things we know about TW: He's a Daeva, childe of Marisa. He's The Old Bat that's referenced elsewhere. He's a member of the Ezrebet bloodline, who age the longer they're out of Torpor. (We know this from his description, his final story, and the fact Marisa is in the Ezrebet write up.) He knows Frances, from the Mekhet book. He was Embraced in New York, but he lived in Canterbery, London, and Paris before then. His work compiling info was betrayed by a clan member, who is "only a shadow". My guess is this is Felix, the Daeva elder who's really a Mekhet elder. The whole thing with New York and Marisa and the aging is very reminiscent of The Hunger, which puts me in mind of David Bowie. Perhaps TW is The Thin White Duke? That was Bowie's persona in 1976's "Station to Station" album. (That's also the same year The Man Who Fell To Earth came out.) I think I'm on the right track here. Is TW supposed to be David Bowie? or maybe Bowie's character from The Hunger?

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!)In The Hunger, Catherine Denevue played Miriam, which is pretty close to Marisa. Bowie played a guy named John. Is the Old Bat John?

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!)Further thoughts on the David Bowie theory: Throughout Daeva, we see fictional vampires based on real (in the game world) Kindred. There's Carmilla, the whole thing with Felix and Black Blood, and of course Dracula plays a pretty major part in Requiem. Do we have any idea when TW was Embraced? The movie The Hunger came out in 83, and is based on a novel from 81 (thanks Wikipedia!). What if, in the World of Darkness, David Bowie was Embraced sometime between 76 and 81? He then talks to an author and has his story published, and then goes on to play himself in the movie? (I'm pretty sure The Hunger vamps spend time outside in the day though, so perhaps he was Marisa's ghoul in the early 80s?) The film was a dramatization of the fate he knew would be in store for himself eventually.

In the real world, David Bowie seemed remarkably resistant to aging up until about 2000, when he suddenly got really old. This isn't quite how the Ezrebet weakness plays out, but it could fit. Also, Russell said that he expected people to groan when they realized who TW is, and considering how VtM had a bad habit of making every dead famous person a vampire, having David Bowie be an author of the clanbooks could certainly fit. Or maybe I'm way off base.

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!)Originally Posted by Shawn Is the Old Bat John? Bingo. Note other subtle "John" references throughout. Now if anybody can peg that party from the end of the book... Ventrue got VT, so I thought it was only fair to include a defining Daeva. (Bowie would have written his bits very differently.)

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by ShawnOriginally Posted by darkhunterjag So what out of the original questions has yet to be uncovered? Well, the big ones are the identity of WH and the real history of Clan Ventrue. I have theories on those, and a few more questions of my own. WH: I think on this one we need to ignore Will Hindmarch's original ideas (no offense Will), because the series went in a different direction than he had planned as far as the metanarrative goes. I think in Will's vision, we can surmise WH is a Hunter or some other enemy of the Kindred. Pick your favorite HtV Conspiracy and go to town. I'll suggest the Cainite Heresy. If we assume WH isn't a vampire hunter (Whampire Hunter?) and is in fact one of the Kindred, my money is on Felix. Looking at what the clanbooks do (rewriting history, warn about the return of the Strix, threaten the masquerade) it's all stuff that fits Felix's MO. I don't think WH's identity is something we can actually definitively answer, unlike TW. My guess is it's one of those things that there purposefully isn't a solid answer to, so STs can do whatever they want. In my game, I'm probably going to make it Felix. Now, the Ventrue. Let's look at a few things: Requiem For Rome makes zero mention of the Ventrue, except perhaps as the mysterious 6th

clan that sold out Rome to the Strix back in the day. (But Will has mentioned that with the dead 6th clan and the Ventrue there are now seven, or VII, clans.) If you check Ancient Bloodlines, there are no Ventrue bloodlines that predate the fall of Rome. There's something of a link between the Julii and the Ventrue, not only are the disciplines exactly the same and the weakness similar, the founder of the Ventrue bloodline Macallarius was a Julii and major NPC in Fall of the Camarilla. If you read Fall of the Camarilla, it's pretty damned clear that the Ventrue aren't just the Julii with a different name, and the Julii were in fact wiped out (with a handful of exceptions, like the Macallarius.) Will says the Ventrue's history is in fact mostly correct, so they had to exist in some form or another throughout history. Gangrel suggests that the Ventrue are a Gangrel offshoot, and the whole "lords of men who became lords of beasts and then became lords of men again" thing plays in to that. In RfR, the Licinii are a bloodline of Nosferatu who essentially become Nos/Julii, and were created by a Strix possessed Haunt. (VtR lists the Licinii as a Ventrue bloodline.) So, my Ventrue theory: the Ventrue were a Gangrel Bloodline (probably just bloodline with a lowercase "b") who were warriors and generals and conquerers. At some point, a Strix possessed one of them, and created a childe, who was a member of a new bloodline - Gangrel that also possessed Dominate. My guess is this happened about the same time as the Julii were wiped out. Perhaps this Ventrue Eve was among the barbarians that sacked Rome. Somehow, this bloodline evolved in to a full blown clan, probably because of the Strix heritage in their veins. They became more like the Julii, losing Protean and gaining a propensity for madness. The Ventrue emerged during the middle ages, taking hold of the nascent Invictus and claiming they'd been around forever (which, in a way, they had.) Eventually, the truth that Ventrue weren't always the clan of leaders was lost to the Fog of Ages and deliberately revised history. If Felix is WH, he's obviously cool with perpetrating this lie, although he lets doubts slip in to Gangrel and other places. Why? Not sure exactly. Now, this Ventrue history might not be true, if you want to say they were a clan the whole time and they just hid far away from Rome you can, but in my game, this is absolutely going to be the secret truth. (In fact, I'm going to have one really damn old Ventrue who was originally a Gangrel as an NPC in my game.)

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!) by ShawnQuestions of my own (mostly about Daeva it turns out): If Nicodemus is the random Nosferatu who dies chasing Frances around after she opens the crate, what happened to Little Jack? I'm guessing he's just wandering around in Whatever City now. Poor kid.

In Daeva, the Carthians are referred to as The Spaniards. Aside from the obvious reason that it's a good idea to have nicknames for your undead secret societies, any thoughts as to why? The party in Daeva - East Egg is a part of Long Island, a fictional community from the Great Gatsby (thanks again Wikipedia and Google!) I'm assuming the mansion the party is at is Daisy's mansion from the Great Gatsby. Are there any other Great Gatsby references in Daeva? I saw the Robert Redford movie eons ago, but never read the book. The woman Old Bat is talking to is wearing a revealing seafoam green dress. I think we can assume she's the vamp on the cover of CB: Daeva. Does she show up anywhere else in the book/clanbooks? Is she Daisy? I'm going to use TW/John/The Old Bat as an npc in my 80s New York game. I'm going to name him Johnathan Moretti for my game. I'm going to keep much of the history from The Hunger as his back story. So he was a cellist from 18th century Paris, who Marisa ghouled and then brought to New York at some point in the early 19th century. She embraced him before she slipped in to Torpor at some point in the 1800s. He's Ayesha's sire, and London's grandsire. (Which means both of them are Ezrebet, if they ever activate their bloodline.) Ayesha was embraced at some point before the late 70s while on tour (I'm going to assume in New York. I might keep her in the city, or I might say she's left town already by 1983.) The Hunger just came out in 1983, which is causing something of a scandal in New York. It's interesting that TW/John doesn't mention The Hunger anywhere in Daeva, especially considering how much time he spends on Carmilla. Perhaps he's embarassed? Was it someone else who leaked his story so that it became a novel/movie? Ayesha could have done it, or Felix. Here's a question: when did Felix wake up and convince rewrite TW's memories? Was Ayesha already around? I'm thinking Felix will show up in my NWR game as well...

Re: V:tR - Unravelling the Clanbooks (Warning: very long and spolierish!)Gatsby references: there are a lot. It's a favorite of both Justin Achilli and I. Also a number of Bowie catalog references, mostly era appropriate. Originally Posted by Shawn In Daeva, the Carthians are referred to as The Spaniards. Aside from the obvious reason that it's a good idea to have nicknames for your undead secret societies, any thoughts as to why? I'll give this one free, since it was cut from the book. Those Carthians are actually the childer of Cuban refugees... but the old south vampires they encountered as they moved north just heard the language and called them Spaniards. It stuck. They were also supposed to get some bloodlines (including one very familiar one), but I didn't have the room. Same space issue got social combat pushed all the way back to The Danse Macabre.