was darwin right?

www.wasdarwinright.net Was Darwin right? www.wasdarwinright.net Was Darwin right? [email protected]@wasdarwinright.net

Was Darwin right?

Are we here by chance or are we here by design, does it matter anyway, and is there conflict

between science and Christianity?

Dr Luke Randall, Dr Mark Toleman


What is Science? Is there any conflict of science with religion? Theory of evolution. The flood and time. Origins in the original soup? Hereditary and mutations. Fossils and transitions? Devolution. Concluding comments.

Overview of the talk


What is science?


Systematically acquired knowledge that is verifiable.

A branch of knowledge based on objectivity and involving observation and experimentation.

Systemized knowledge derived through experimentation, observation, and study. Also, the methodology used to acquire this knowledge.

The job of science is to provide plausible natural explanations for natural phenomena. National Academy of science.

Does science's own self-definition exclude certain theories from investigation?

Some definitions of science


Is there conflict between science and Christianity?


Water developed into other elements and these elements developed into plants, then into simple animals and finally into more complex animals like man.

Thales of Miletus (640 to 546 B.C)

“If there is anything in nature which the human mind, which human intelligence, energy and power could not create, then the creator of such things must be a being superior to man. But the heavenly bodies in their orbits could not be created by man. They must therefore be created by a being greater than man ……. Only an arrogant fool would imagine that there was nothing in the whole world greater than himself. Therefore there must be something greater than man. And that something must be God”.

Chrysippus, c. 200 BC

Chance or design – an old debate!


Viewpoints?‘The most devastating thing that biology did to

Christianity was the discovery of biological evolution. Now that we know that Adam and Eve never were real

people the central myth of Christianity is destroyed. If there never was an Adam and Eve there never was an original sin.

If there never was an original sin there is no need of salvation. If there is no need of salvation there is no need of a saviour.

And I submit that puts Jesus, historical or otherwise, into the ranks of the unemployed. I think that evolution is absolutely the death knell of Christianity.’

Frank Zindler, in a debate with William Lane Craig, Atheism vs. Christianity video, Zondervan, 1996.

Vice president of the British humanist association and a leading evolutionist in the UK, in the past has been quoted as saying:-

“It is absolutely safe to say that if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid, or insane (or wicked, but I’d rather not consider that)”

From the Independent on Sunday newspaper following a school in Gateshead allowing a talk on creation:-

"Last week scientists, humanists, philosophers and church liberals joined forces to denounce the Emmanuel City College in Gateshead. The school, which is backed by evangelical Christians ..... has presented creationist theories as part of their science lessons. This has to be stopped!"


Is science an absolute?

No Moral absolutes, but science absolute?To not question is not science.First century – Lungs moved blood which was constantly replaced by all organs!1600’s - plants only used water to grow!To 1700 / 1800’s – belief in spontaneous generation!1900’s - Thymus, tonsils and appendix were considered useless leftovers but advances in cell biology enabled us to work out their functions.

Are the Theory of evolution, the big bang, all the dating methods we use etc all absolutes we should not question?


Conflict with Science

NEW TESTAMENT

The virgin birth

Walking on the water

The resurrection

Water into wine

Feeding the 5,000

The healings of Jesus

The temple curtain being torn in two

The apostles healings

+ lots more……..

OLD TESTAMENT

Moses rod that budded, turned into a snake

Sun standing still

The axe that floated!

Speaking donkey

Increases the widow's meal and oil

Plagues of Egypt

Shunammite woman's child is raised to life

+ lots more……..


Science’s conflict with creation story?

Genesis creation story - All allegory / myth, or part allegory / myth or what? Not a scientific record, but what do we think?

Theology in Genesis - The concept of a good loving creator, of marriage, original sin and redemption all occur in the first few chapters of Genesis.

Animal kinds - In Genesis 1 it states many times that God created animals that produced offspring after their “kind”.

Conflict with evolution – Time period, design rather than chance, animals produce true to kind, not unlimited change.


Analysis of Genesis text

Analysis of early Genesis text shows that the ratio of Preterites to finite verbs put is as narrative text rather than poetry.

From: ICR video “Thousands not millions”

Alternatives – four main views?

Molecules to man evolution by chance - No creator God, fossils laid down over millions of years?

Theistic evolution? – Old earth, fossils laid down over millions of years, local flood, some input from creator.

Progressive creationism? – Old earth, local flood??

Literal creationism? – Young earth, literal global flood when most fossils were formed.


Theory of evolution


Darwin’s concept of natural selection

• Observation 1: Offspring outnumber parents. Sometimes this is marginally the case - as when a pair of birds raise just one chick per year - but after three years, the observation becomes true. Many more animals produce large numbers of offspring - consider, for example, the number of caterpillars coming from a cabbage white butterfly, or reflect on the population of tadpoles appearing in the local pond.

• Observation 2: Species numbers remain approximately constant. There are good years and bad years for all the animals we know - but we are not being overrun by robins or cabbage white butterflies or frogs. These observations lead to an:

• Deduction: Observations 1 and 2 suggest that there is a struggle for survival. Some offspring die without descendants of their own. There are losers in the game of life.

• Observation 3: Individuals differ in small ways, and many of these differences are inherited from parents. The observation applies to people, as we can confirm by looking at parents and children known to us. In fact, it applies to all organisms -wherever we can look closely enough.

• Conclusion: Those individuals whose variations adapt them to their environment will be the most likely to survive and reproduce. This conclusion is commonly described as the principle of natural selection


Belief in evolution based on?

Spontaneous generation – still believed in to some extent in Darwin’s time

Old earth – evolution needs time, uniformitarian theory of Charles Lyell in "Principles of Geology," first published in 1830. Darwin read this on the Beagle

Fossil evidence – evidence of creatures that lived in the past

The order of fossils in the geological column

Homology (similarity) - in structures (particularly bones) and later in proteins and genes

Breeding – Darwin bred pigeons

Ability of species to adapt and selective pressure of environments

Selection of favourable characteristics

Neo Darwinism – mutations now mechanism for change


When did it all happen?

3.5 billion years ago – first single celled prokaryotic organisms (e.g. cyanobacteria).2.1 billion years ago – first single celled eukaryotic organisms (e.g. like amoabae, algae)700 million years ago - multi-celled animals (or metazoa), jellyfish and worms570 million years ago - the first fishes, the trilobites followed by nautiloids500 million years ago – corals438 million years ago - the first land plants408 million years ago - the first amphibians, insects and spiders 360 million years ago - the amphibians were thought to develop into the reptiles245 million years ago - from the reptiles the first mammals and dinosaurs208 million years ago - birds from reptiles144 million years ago - many reptiles died out, modern snakes and mammals66 million years ago - mammals spread, the first owls, shrews and hedgehogs58 million years ago - the first dogs, cats, rabbits, elephants and horse 37 million years ago - the first deer, monkeys, pigs and rhinoceros24 million years ago - new mammals, including mice, rats and apes5 million years ago - Australopithecus with the first cattle and sheep

Man made in the image of God about ?? years ago


The flood and time


The flood and time

Dating with radio-isotopes became well established

around 1925. Before that, an old age was attributed

to the earth on the basis of a geological processes happening at a uniform

rate, e.g. UNIFORMITATIANISM.


How long did it take to lay down these rock

layers?

Bottom layer, 9 hours on 18th May 1980

Middle layer 12th June 1980

Top layer – Mud flow March 1982

From AIG video: “Geological evidences for rapid strata

formation.”


Erosion

How long did it take

for this Gorge to

be eroded though volcanic

rock?


Mt St Helens erupting.


Sediments from larger volcanoes?


Over literally hundreds of square miles of the

Grand Canyon (see left) there are literally billions of nautaloid fossils (see

below).

Many of these nautaloids are in the rock vertically,

suggesting rapid hardening of the rock. A catastrophe,

rather than millions of years of gradual

sediments. From AIG video: “Geological evidences for rapid strata formation.”


Polystrate trees

Fossilised trees that go though

supposedly millions of years

of strata?


Carbon dating of coal

As carbon 14 has a half life of c. 5,700 years, no

coal should have any carbon 14 in it if the coal was

formed millions of years ago.

However, coal from different

geological intervals all Has similar amounts of carbon 14, as

do diamonds.From: ICR video “Thousands not millions”


Further information - dating

Both available via www.wasdarwinright.net


Origins in the original soup?

Images courtesy of BioMEDIA ASSOCIATES.


Spontaneous generation570 BC - “In the beginning there was a fish-like creature with scales that arose in and lived in the world ocean. As some of these advanced, they moved onto land, shed their scaly coverings and became the first humans.” Greek philosopher named Anaximander

1745 - John Needham, an English clergyman, proposed what he considered the definitive experiment. Everyone knew that boiling killed micro-organisms, so he proposed to test whether or not micro-organisms appeared spontaneously after boiling. He boiled chicken broth, put it into a flask, sealed it, and waited - sure enough, micro-organisms grew. Needham claimed victory for spontaneous generation and was made a fellow of the Royal society. Later work showed the corks let bacteria through.

1802 - Dr Erasmus Darwin (Darwin’s grandfather) "Hence without parents, by spontaneous birth, Rise the first specks of animated earth.“

1953 - Dr Stanley Miller’s famous experiment. In this experiment water vapour, ammonia, methane and hydrogen was subjected to spark discharges and simple amino acids were formed. After this experiment was performed, a newspaper headline proclaimed that life had been made in a test tube! Dr Miller later admitted the problem of origins was more complex than he imagined.


Left - Procaryotic cell (all bacteria)

• No true nucleus or nuclear membrane• No mitochondria, golgi complexes, endoplasmic reticulum• Divides by direct replication of DNA and cell

• Genome size 580,073 (483 genes) to c. 4,639,221 (4,377 genes)

Cell origin and evolution??

Bottom – Eukaryotic cell – all

other living organisms

Divides by process of mitosis and meiosis

Genome size generally larger

Yeast 12,462,637 Fruit fly 122,653,977 Human 3,300,000,000


How complex is a cell?"[The instructions within the DNA of a single cell] if

written out would fill a thousand 600 page books.

Each cell is a world brimming with as many as two hundred trillion tiny groups of atoms called molecules. . Our 46 [human] chromosome 'threads' linked together would measure more than six feet. Yet the [cell] nucleus that contains them is less than four ten-thousandths of an inch in diameter."

Rick Gore, "The Awesome Worlds within a Cell" in National Geographic, September 1976, pp. 357-358, 360.


The first bacteria?

Cyanobacteria are among the

easiest microfossils to

recognize. Dated at 3.5 billion years

old!

Layered stromatolite fossils produced by the

activity of ancient cyanobacteria.


The First bacteria – unchanged?

If at an one time, there were only 1,000,000,000 cyanobacteria (less than 1 gram of bacteria) alive on the planet, assuming they divide every 2 days (varies for different strains at different temperatures), then in 3,500,000,000 years, they must have divided 618,000,000,000,000,000,000 times without significant errors in DNA replication!

The DNA of cyanobacteria has made copies of itself for

3,500,000,000 years with out enough errors to change the

structures they form!


Origin of the first cell?To produce this miracle of molecular construction all the cell need do is to

string together the amino acids (which make up the polypeptide chain) in the correct order…………

If a particular amino acid sequence was selected by chance, how rare of an event would that be?

Suppose the chain is about two hundred amino acids long; this is, if anything, rather less than the average length of proteins of all types. Since we have just twenty possibilities at each place, the number of possibilities is twenty multiplied by itself some two hundred times. This is conveniently written 20260, that is a one followed by 260 zeros!

This number is quite beyond our everyday comprehension. For comparison, consider the number of fundamental particles (atoms, speaking loosely) in the entire visible universe, not just in our own galaxy with its 1011 stars, but in all the billions of galaxies, out to the limits of observable space. This number, which is estimated to be 1080, is quite paltry by comparison to 10260. Moreover, we have only considered a polypeptide chain of a rather modest length. Had we considered longer ones as well, the figure would have been even more immense."

Francis Crick, [Crick received a Nobel Prize for discovering the structure of DNA.] Life Itself, Its Origin and Nature (1981), pp 51-52.


Heredity and mutations


PangenesisDarwin know nothing of genes, chromosomes, DNA, protein

structure or mutations.

Darwin proposed the idea of pangenesis. Cells of the body produced substances called gemmules and parts of the body that were more used produced more of these substances.

These gemmules were thought to affect sex cells of the body in such a way that in the next generation, there would be enhanced development of parts of the body that produced excess gemmules and diminished development of part of the body that produced less gemmules.

As science has progresses, it is more difficult to account for bacteria to man evolution than when Darwin proposed pangenesis.


Mitosis

Normal cell division, two set of chromosomes

in each cell.

Meiosis

Cell division to produce sperm or

egg, shuffling around of genetic material leads to variation, coupled

with acquired genes from mother and

father.

In 1911 the American geneticist Thomas Hunt Morgan (1866-1945) observed cross-over in Fruit flies meiosis and provided the first true genetic interpretation of meiosis.


Diversification is not evolution


Darwin’s finches

Most of the ground finches have been show to inter-breed so are they actually different species?

Beak size can vary with seasons?

Actual observations of rapid finch adaptation have forced evolutionists to scale that back to a timeframe from millions of years to just a few centuries.

The different types of finches reflect selection of genetic material that was there, not new material.


Any guesses what this is?

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Are mutations beneficial?

Results of Literature search of 18 million records

Database Searched

Search Limiter Biological Abstracts Medline Total*

Total Mutation(s) 170,527 283,205 453,732

Beneficial Mutation(s) 98 88 186

Percent Beneficial 0.06 0.03 0.04

Total Records Searched 6,434,067 12,373,719 18,807,786

The search method used produces some overlap between databases that must be eliminated by manual inspection. The literature data base covered from 1966 to October 27, 2003.

From TrueOrigins web site at http://www.trueorigin.org/mutations01.asp


Do mutations produce new information?

Left. Change of one DNA nucleotide is sufficient to cause sickle cell anaemia

Right. Cystic fibrosis protein of 1,480

amino acids. Deletion of one of these

amino acids causes cystic fibrosis


Fossils and transitions

Fossil of a coelacanth

Prior to 1938, the coelacanth was known only from fossils. Certain structures, such as fins, were determined to be

the forerunners of legs for all amphibians.


Living fossils - bacteria

Layered stromatolite fossils produced by the

activity of ancient cyanobacteria.

This process still occurs today at

Shark Bay in western Australia.


The fossil liquidambar leaf is allegedly about 20 million years old

on the evolutionists’ time-scale. This specimen is from ‘Miocene’

brown coal in north-western Germany. Yet the leaves are almost

identical to the living variety (right), showing no evolution.

Plants show stability over time

Maple, cycads, walnut, fig, magnolia, willow, ginko tree, birch, fan palm,

monkey puzzle, sea lilly, tassel fern, grape, sponges, seaweed

and wollemi pine

Living fossils – plants


Living fossils - insects

Little change in 250 million years for dragon flies?

Or for bees and spiders

Or for cockroaches and

millipedes

Amber ant


Living fossils – aquatic creatures and reptiles

Lobsters, crayfish and rays (fossils found in Jurassic rock), lampshells, molluscs, mussels, oysters, thumb nail shells (fossils found in Carboniferous rock), sharks (fossilised teeth found in Devonian rock).

Also slitsnails, green sturgeon, lungfish, mackerel, perch, herring, the horseshoe crab, the coelocanth, jelly fish, frogs, toads, the nautilus, crocodiles, alligators, turtles etc.

Fossil of a frog, looking very frog-like


Living fossils - mammalsDire Wolf fossils at the

National Museum of Natural History. Similar to modern wolf.

Could Meiosis explain differences between fossilised and living

mammals?

Many mammals including bats (left), shrews, opossums are living fossils.


"The evidence we find in the geological record is not nearly as compatible with Darwinian natural selection as we would like it to be ....We now have a quarter of a million fossil species but the situation hasn't changed much. The record of evolution is surprisingly jerky and, ironically, we have even fewer examples of evolutionary transition than in Darwin's time ... so Darwin's problem has not been alleviated“ Evolutionist David Raup, Curator of Geology at Chicago's Field Museum of Natural History.

Fossils - transitions

“And we find many of them (fossilised organisms) already in an advanced state of evolution, the very first

time they appear. It is as though they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history.

Needless to say, this appearance of sudden planting has delighted creationists". Richard Dawkins, The Blind

Watchmaker (New York: W.W. Norton Co., 1987).


Do we see evolution happening?

The process of evolution must find/develop immense amounts of Information.

1 book 10,000 books

Amoeba

Amount of information Amount of information


Can this amount of information be found by the process of mutationAnd natural selection?

No! observed changes via natural selection reduce information


The text book example of evolution in actionThe peppered moths

Is this example of natural selection

A gain of information? orA loss of information?


Changes between dogs are a result of loss of information


Diversification is not evolution


Double muscling in Charolais Bulls


Ears No ears Loss

Legs No legs Loss

Good hearing poor hearing LossGood vision poor vision Loss

David Attenborough Snake evolution

Net information change


Plants also are undergoing devolution as a direct result of selection


What about bacteria– surely with their short generation times these organisms must be evolving?

Leprosy-more than 690,000 new cases every year. The Leprosy bacillus has 1604 functional genes and 1116 non-functional genes(pseudogenes).Only 49.5% of its genome contains functional genes and it is estimated that it has lost2000 genes in total.


Changes to the bacterial chromosome

Virus (Bacteriophage)

Insertionelement

PlasmidGenomic island

insertion


Bordatella bronchiseptica

Bordatella pertusis

Bordatella parapertusis


Other bacteria that have lost information and cause disease

Mycobacterium leprae LeprosyYersinia pestis PlagueHelicobacter pylori Stomach ulcers, stomach cancerRickettsias typhus-various feversEhrlichias ehrlichiosisBorrelia burgdorferi Lyme diseaseMycoplasmas PneumoniaSalmonella typhi TyphoidShigella flexneri DiorrhoeaBordatella pertusis Whooping coughBordatella parapertusis Whooping cough Bartonella quintana Trench feverBartonella henselae Cat-scratch diseaseTreponema pallidum Syphilis+ Many others!

Bacteria Disease


GC% variation with size of bacterial genomes

Direct correlation between GC% and extent of devolution


Concluding comments Is some of the science driven by philosophy? Perhaps the world is younger than 4 billion years? No understanding how the first cells arose. Fossil gaps still there, living fossils show stability. Evidence that mutations lead to loss of information. Are we devolving?

In view of the above, is it ignorant to believe in a Creator God?


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