That Witch Life Episode 28: What if the Salem Witch Trials Convicted Actual Witches?

0:00 (intro music) 20 years ago, three young friends realized they were witches. They scattered to different parts of the world following magic and spirit. Now, they're back in their hometown to share what they've learned. Welcome to That Witch Life Podcast: Your home for living as a witch in today's world.

Kanani 0:49 Hey, everybody, welcome back to a very special episode of That Witch Life podcast. We're doing things a little bit differently today. I am joined by My fellow co hosts, Courtney and Hillary,

Courtney and Hilary 1:04 Hello!!!

Kanani 1:05 And also our very special guest, Phillip Reese.

Phillip 1:09 Hey, how's it going? Long time no speak!

Kanani 1:13 That's right! A couple pf months ago, we were on his podcast, 'History's What If Podcast,' and we had a great time. And the intent was that we were going to talk about the Salem witch trials. And we ended up talking about what it's like to be a witch in America today. And so we wanted to do over

Courtney 1:31 Yeah, we took over Phillip's podcast.

Kanani 1:33 That's right took away.

Courtney 1:36 I've listened to Phillip's podcast, and it's so fascinating because I'm obsessed with the idea of the alternative universe.

Kanani 1:43 Yes.

Courtney 1:44 And so Phillip's podcast is all about that. Like, what if history had turned left instead of right? What if this had happened instead of that, where would we be now?

Kanani 1:54 one of my favorite episodes was "What if Martin Luther King hadn't been assassinated?"

Phillip 2:00 That was a fun one.

Kanani 2:05 I think we all kind of like to get lost in the idea of what if something happened and and the fact that you kind of use very momentous moments in time I think it makes it just that much more interesting.

Courtney 2:16 And the theory is that these alternative universes actually exist. Like there is a universe in which Clinton won instead of Trump, and for some reason, and then there is a universe in which I was born into an extremely wealthy family, and I've never had to work. And all of my books have been New York Times number one bestsellers and I'm richer than JK Rowling. And I don't know why that bitch got that universe. And I got this one.

Kanani 2:41 yeah, I definitely chose the wrong best friend. I'm just saying.

Phillip 2:46 No, don't say that.

Courtney 2:49 She's actually very nice to me when no one else is around.

Kanani 2:52 It's not true.

Courtney 2:52 You put a microphone in front of her and it's just it's just this shitshow

Kanani 2:55 The good stuff comes out.

Hilary 2:56 She can't possibly let people know that she is actually nice in real life. She's got to keep the facade up.

Kanani 3:03 It's all a lie.

Courtney 3:04

We are still finding chocolate wrappers from last episode where Hilary and I were just devouring an entire box of chocolates.

Kanani 3:13 It's true. Chocolates are good times

Hilary 3:15 It was good.

Kanani 3:16 So um, so the discussion topic today is going to be what if the women accused in the Salem witch trials were actually witches. So that is the topic and I just want to introduce you really quick. Our special guest is Phillip Reese, or "The Doctor" who is a former American theoretical physicist. His work has included advanced quantum computing operations, research on control of quantum systems, and quantum information processing. While he has received some praise, the scientific community has overwhelmingly shunned him because of his unique theories on time and space, paired with his "march to his own drum" personality. This consequently led to his self imposed exile. A few years later, his studies and unconventional creativity led him to the groundbreaking quantum computer application called the Parallel Universe Generator, or "PUG". With PUG, The Doctor is able to explore the "What If..." during historical events with a weekly podcast called "History's What If." So, welcome to our crazy podcast.

Phillip 4:35 I'm so afraid right now, you know that? I'm in the hot seat. I'm usually the host, so I'm in more control. Right now, I feel so vulnerable.

All Three 4:46 (laughs)

Kanani 4:46 That's how we like to make men feel, by the way, so you're not alone.

Hilary 4:51 He's like "Shit, I gotta go."

Courtney 4:54 He's like, yeah, this was a big mistake.

Phillip 4:58 So unfortunately, PUG couldn't make it today. PUG is still calculating some more alternative timelines for the next episode. So unfortunately, PUG's too busy, but I do have some bullet points. So there you go.

Kanani 5:12

Nice.

Courtney 5:13 All right!

Hilary 5:14 We appreciate that.

Courtney 5:15 Okay!

Kanani 5:18 So I think we're going to start with Courtney giving kind of a synopsis for...I can't imagine....I don't know, I always think that everyone must already know this stuff. But then there are people who haven't really researched this stuff.

Courtney 5:30 You really wanted to keep me keep me busy.

Kanani 5:32 That's true.

Courtney 5:33 That's the thing to keep me busy: give me research, but I'm going to fall down a rabbit hole, I'd be gone for days, which is probably what you intended.

Kanani 5:40 It's true.

Phillip 5:43 I think it's a great idea if we start off with some type of foundation because you are right, maybe a few people out there do not know what happened in this timeline.

Kanani 5:51 Absolutely. So why don't you kind of give us a brief kind of a synopsis of what we're talking about.

Courtney 5:56 Yeah. So I'm going to go back quite a bit into medieval Europe to start. So we've heard a lot about these "burning times" in the witchcraft community in which it was believed...I've heard a lot of numbers. There's a song out there that talks about 9 million witches were killed in as a pagan genocide in Europe. And that is an extreme exaggeration, if not an outright lie. But the truth is that a lot of people did die because they were accused of witchcraft. So witch hysteria in Europe began around the 1400s, in which there was a belief that witches were gathering at nocturnal meetings called the Sabbats, and which they danced naked, indulged in orgies,

parodied the Catholic Mass, and killed and ate babies. With the exception of the last part, I'm totally in.

Kanani 6:50 I was gonna say, I'm pretty sure that what we decided later to do actually came from what they originally accused people of doing. They're all like, "Well dancing naked in the moonlight sounds pretty cool. We should start doing that."

Hilary 7:01 I mean my baby-eating days are over so...(laughs)

Courtney 7:03 Right when your stove broke...(laughs)

Hilary 7:05 When my stove broke I just gave up on eating babies.

Kanani 7:08 I have a Popeye's down the street. I have no need for baby.

Courtney 7:11 Dairy Queen and Popeye's. Yeah. So yeah, but it was also said that the devil was part of this party. If there was a crop failure, illnesss of people or of livestock, it was believed that witches were to blame. People who were accused of witchcraft were hung, burned at the stake, or drowned, mostly hung. We talk about "the burning times," but that was actually a less common method of execution. Most accused witches, under torture, confessed to convorting with the devil and to committing the aforementioned acts. The witch hunts spiked between the years 1500 and 1660. Up to 80,000 suspected witches were put to death in Europe. About 80% of these accused witches were women, but obviously not all of them were women. Germany had the highest execution rate (surprise, surprise), and Ireland had the lowest. An important note, this was something I found fascinating. These witch hunts began less than a century after the bubonic, or sometimes called the Black Plague, wiped out one third of the population of Europe.

Kanani 8:24 Wow.

Courtney 8:24 I don't think we really have a concept of what this disease did. I mean, we're talking whole villages would die.

Kanani 8:31 Oh, yeah. No, and no one in this day and age can yet fathom that type of atrocity

Phillip 8:37

Worse than the corona virus, okay?

Kanani 8:43 People weren't stuck on cruise ships then being fed candy, free beer, and cheeseburgers.

Phillip 8:49 No, they weren't. We still have the internet on these ships, so it's not too bad. You just got to stay in your room.

Kanani 9:00 They still have Netflix, they're fine.

Courtney 9:02 Part of this was because these people were absolutely filthy. And because it was believed that cleaning yourself was considered evil, and so people really wouldn't bathe and so they were covered with fleas, which were what conducts this virus. And so without also understanding the nature of the disease, which you could be fine in the morning and then by evening your lungs would liquify and you would be coughing them up, which is the reason why we say bless you now when someone sneezes because a sneeze might have meant the beginning of the plague. And so in that this disease was believed to be a punishment inflicted on humanity for heresy, which may have installed both a deep fear of disease and a deep fear against going against the supposed will of God. So, naturally, misogyny had a huge part of this, as it was a these witch hunts were often a desire to control women's sexual and reproductive capabilities. One of the many accusations against Witches was that they were sexually promiscuous, which was considered to be an aberration the sight of God and would attract a new plague. Midwives who could provide birth control and abortifacients may have been especially targeted because of a desire to repopulate the continent after the death after all the deaths so others who were killed a part of this were likely people with mental illness, dementia, or they were foreigners coming in all these things

Hilary 10:28 With different practices, yeah.

Kanani 10:30 Someone had a different religion, or someone had too much money, everyone in town was pissed. You name a reason. They would love to accuse someone.

Hilary 10:41 It was like an excuse to take anyone that went against your reality or against the grain of what society found to be, quote unquote, normal and go, "well, you're different. So you must be a problem. And either you conform or you go."

Kanani 10:55

Right. It was very much geared towards outsiders. Yeah. Anyone who's considered a quote unquote outsider.

Courtney 11:00 Yeah. And that and so a lot of this comes from fear and ignorance.

Phillip 11:06 Some things never change.

Courtney 11:09 Some things do not change! (laughs). But this was really not a pagan genocide. This was not a, an attempt to annihilate indigenous European practices. Most of the people that were accused of witchcraft and hung for it, were actually practicing Christians. This period is sometimes confused with the Inquisition, which was a targeted attack on people they believed to be heretics. Mostly, the Inquisition happened in Spain, and the strong focus was on people who were Jewish or Muslim. So yes, were there some indigenous pagan practitioners that were were killed as a result? Absolutely. But the main targets; it was anti semitism and Islamophobia. So, again, things have not changed all that much. There are many few fewer cases of the plague. The plague actually still exists. Yes, yeah, one or two cases a year, but it's actually very easily treated with antibiotics. So now we're going to switch over to the Salem witch trials. In the spring of 1692 in Salem village, Massachusetts, which is now Danvers, Massachusetts. It's actually a neighboring town to Salem town, which is now the Salem we know today. So the actual Salem Witch Trials happened just outside of Salem, not actually in Salem. But many of them were executed in what is now Salem, which is why we consider it that. And what happened was a group of young girls claimed they were possessed by the devil, and accused several local women of witchcraft. A special court session was convened in Salem to hear the cases. The first woman convicted of witchcraft was Bridget Bishop who was hung. 18 others would soon be hung over that wild summer. 150 other men, women and children were accused but were not executed for it.

Kanani 13:04 Bridget Bishop actually was not the first accused. She was the first killed.

But she was not the first accused. And she was hung. And she didn't fall correctly. And so it didn't break her neck like it's supposed to. So she actually choked to death. Because when she fell, they kind of want you to fall straight. And it's....I understand torture. Let's just step back a little bit. I understand how these things are supposed to work.

Courtney 13:08 Oh, okay.

Is that what you're always on your phone? Looking up torture?

Kanani 13:34 That's why my husband is so good to me. He knows I know these things. So you're supposed to fall straight and it snaps your neck but she when she fell, it kind of swung. And so instead you just it was just horrible. It was awful.

Phillip 13:47 That kind of scares me. You're an expert on hanging because I had no clue about that.

Courtney 13:52 Oh, she's an expert on torture.

Kanani 13:58 Much broader.

Hilary 13:59 All forms of torture.

Kanani 14:00 It's how you keep a happy marriage. That's my marital advice.

Courtney 14:05 All the newlyweds out there are like....

Kanani 14:07 Make sure your husband understands that you are fully fully knowledgeable of all methods of torture.

Courtney 14:15 Right. So by that summer the hysteria had begun to abate and public opinion had turned against the trials. So for a little more backstory, there are some very interesting parallels to the witch trials of medieval Europe. So these the the people of this area were living in a very, these colonists were living a very harsh, puritanical culture. They had just come off a war between Britain and France in the colonies and a smallpox epidemic. And they were living with fear of attacks from the local indigenous community who were understandably angry about their land being colonized by uptight Puritans. So also Salem village, the present day Danvers, was in a long standing rivalry with Salem town, the present day Salem, which is very funny because now Salem is getting all the credit and Mystique for this era. So is it just is it a "hahaha!" or is it a "crap..."? Yeah. So there's a lovely twisted irony there. So and also paying attention to the fact that medieval Europe had already figured out that witch trials were foolish, but it took puritanical colonies a little bit longer to catch up with this new information. It's like, let's repeat the mistakes of medieval Europe. Because we're Puritans. (laughs)

Kanani 15:35

Well, that's the whole reason. I mean, that's why pilgrims left England in the first place was because they were so uptight, that they're like "you people are way too liberal. We're getting the f out of here" and they decided to form their own colonies. So they were already like four steps behind everything. So a little history lesson kids if you wonder why in England, there's so much more progressive than we are. It's because shitheads lefting came here to form their own country. Yeah, it's taken us a while to...

Courtney 16:06 Well....they did vote for Brexit, so...

Phillip 16:09 They did vote for Brexit.

Kanani 16:12 They did do a backslide.

Courtney 16:13 They have better health care....

Hilary 16:15 (The Puritans ) were more steal their own country than form but...

Courtney 16:19 Yes, so anyway, in January of 1692, Elizabeth (Betty) Parris and Abigail Williams, the niece and daughter of Samuel Parris, began to exhibit strange symptoms, which included violent contortions, uncontrollable outbursts of screaming and a local doctor diagnosed them as being bewitched. The other young girls and the community began having some similar symptoms. It's important to note there is a fungus called ergot, which is found in wheat, rye, and in many cereals, which is thought to cause delusions of vomiting and muscle spasms. And so it may have been these girls were eating moldy bread and not actually having attacks by Spirit forms.

Kanani 17:00 An important side note, I think to this is the first girls that started the shenanigans were the daughters and niece of the Hellfire preacher in town. They weren't just any children, their their father and uncle were the ones telling everyone "you have to do XYZ." Yeah, "you're going straight to hell fire, brimstone, fire, brimstone." So these were incredibly traumatized...I mean, you can just imagine the life that these poor girls were growing up in. And this was in the middle of a very cold hard winter. It was January in in New England, and

Courtney 17:40 Pre global warming, right.

Kanani 17:42

Pre global warming. Exactly. Yes. And the they have talked about ergot before and I've kind of researched that. And they say that the fact that it was so sporadic, makes it unlikely that it was caused by the rye bread, it's most likely the fact that these children were essentially mentally abused. And the fact that their fits always happened in very convenient locations. For example, when they were in the courtroom, and when they were around people who were questioning them about about their fits, and they didn't happen that often around other people or when they were alone. So, so this made, it's really, to me, it really was hysteria.

Phillip 18:20 I concur with you. I think it was just the two kids being kids. They were nine and 11. Yeah, and I think they were just being normal young girls at the time, but because it was so unacceptable during this time period, they were labeled a witch. Or practicing witchcraft.

Courtney 18:39 So the basic theory is that it wasn't spirits, and it likely wasn't moldy bread, it was likely the symptoms of being raised by Puritans, first of all, but by the most uptight, terrifying conservative Puritans out there

Hilary 18:53 The most psycho. Like the psychos of the psychos,

Kanani 18:57 and we can point out that that blood runs through my veins.

Courtney 19:01 Rising you are your ancestors' punishment.

Kanani 19:03 That's what I'm saying. You're welcome.

Courtney 19:06 So, in late February arrest warrants were issued for Tituba, a Caribbean woman enslaved by the Parris family, as well as a homeless beggar named Sarah Good and an elderly woman named Sarah Osborne. So basically the three most vulnerable people in the community are the first ones accused of witchcraft.

Hilary 19:24 Also shocking.

Courtney 19:26 So the three women were brought before the magistrate while their accusers appeared in the courtroom continuing to have their spasming fits from being Puritans and raised by these awful people. So Good and Osborne denied their guilt, while Tituba, while being beaten by Samuel Parris, confessed to having worked with

the Devil, and she also said many other witches were in league with her against the Puritans.

Kanani 19:46 She had named Sarah Osgood. She's the one she named them because essentially, the part of what just adds to the hysteria is the people whose lives were spared were the people who would out other people. And so what they wanted was confessions and so they would do whatever they could to get you to confess.

Hilary 20:07 And they would torture you...

Kanani 20:07 Yes. And if you would confess and start naming people, then you would be spared is like, Oh, you were the quote unquote, victim. And they just that's how they just started racking up names.

Phillip 20:19 Yeah, my research showed the same thing where if you confess to being a witch, your life was spared. But if you kept on denying that, that's when you would die.

Hilary 20:28 It's like your life would be spared, but then you were treated like garbage forever, you know?

Kanani 20:32 Exactly. Then Yeah. It's not like you're welcome back in with open arms.

Courtney 20:36 Yeah. God, this is some fucked up shit.

Phillip 20:43 They were actually killing people because they thought they were doing something different. That's what it comes down to.

Kanani 20:50 100%. Yeah,

Courtney 20:51 Yeah, fear and ignorance. Again, again, the Puritans had not figured out what the medieval Europeans had already figured out. So as hysteria spread throughout the community and into the rest of Massachusetts, a number of others were accused including Martha Corey and Rebecca Nurse, who were considered to be upstanding members of the church, as well as the four year old daughter of Sarah Good. So this is also a homeless child. Ack. Jesus. Many others confessed to witchcraft, likely also to protect themselves, just as Kanani said, confessed and named others and the

trials soon overwhelmed the justice system. In May of 1692, the newly appointed governor of Massachusetts, William Phips, ordered the establishment of a special court to hear and judge these cases. And then as Kanani said, not the first one accused, but the first one convicted was Bridget Bishop in June, who was hanged eight days later on what is now known as Gallows Hill in Salem town. So that's probably why we associate these trials with Salem actually began in present day Danvers. Five more people were hung in July, five in August and eight more in September, seven other accused witches died while in jail while the elderly Giles Corey, Martha's husband was pressed to death.

All Three 22:10 "More stones! More stones!"

Kanani 22:17 He refused to confess, yes.

Courtney 22:20 And so he was pressed to death by stones, because he's like, I'm not ruining my name. I've lived long enough screw you guys.

Kanani 22:26 Well, the other thing was that when people would confess that they would take everything that you had, and so your family would be left with nothing. He did not want his his family to be left with nothing. And so he so he took death, instead of confessing and allowing them to take, you know, everything that he had worked so hard for.

Hilary 22:46 And I think too, it's like, outside of just taking the things. It's like generational shaming, you know, like, yeah, it's not like your family, like Well, okay, later on, we'll do better. It's like, everything that you could establish your family with and Generations of shame

Courtney 23:01 Yeah like what Viggo Mortensen (it's actually Daniel Day Lewis but Courtney was confused) said at the end of "The Crucible" like "It is my name!" And he goes to goes to the gallows.

Kanani 23:01 Yes.

And it talks about how some people this is part of the other thing that makes it just all really just fucked up and gross. Is it talks about some people died in prison? Well, the reason some people died in prison was one not only are they heinous, heinous, horrible conditions is that you had to even though you were in prison, you had to pay for your food and shelter and hay to lie on. So if you had no money for food, you

are going to starve in jail. So even though you're in jail, you had to pay to get what you needed. And if you did not have the means to do that you literally rotted and died in jail.

Phillip 23:43 That's insane.

Hilary 23:44 I think the other factor to remember too is that people that were practicing Christians or practicing their their religious beliefs, to say that they were practicing something that was considered evil is to like throw their faith in nto the garbage right? Which in their belief system which could also mean that they are going to Hell. Like to say like, "Oh, I do practice the devil," they're basically admitting in front of God, lying, but admitting in front of God that they worship the devil or, you know, conspired with the devil to do those things. So when your belief system is that if you go against God, you go to hell, you're also condemning yourself to hell, you're condemning your family and your soul for the sake of trying to survive. They're like if I say no, I die, but at least I go to heaven.

Phillip 24:37 You're damned if you do, don't damned if you don't. Yeah, that's what it really came down to.

Courtney 24:43 All right. So this is where the names I just are killing me here. The respected minister, Cotton Mathers, had warned that the testimony of dreams and visions were not sufficient evidence in a court of law but he was ignored. His father, Increase Mathers. Did they have like too many kids and so they were like, "Oh, well, what do we call this one, an increase in children? Like, what is this?

Kanani 25:08 That wasn't funny.

Courtney 25:13 It was funnier in my head.

Kanani 25:14 It might have been.

Hilary 25:16 It's kind of funny.

Kanani 25:18 Okay, well if you have to add that two minutes later, it wasn't funny.

Hilary 25:21

I mean, well....

Kanani 25:23 You're just a better friend. It's okay.

Courtney 25:25 Whatever he was then president of Harvard College, he urged that standards for witchcraft must meet the standards of any other crime, that is providing actual evidence, concluding that it's better than that "10 suspected Witches escape than one innocent person be put to death," so amid waning support for the trials, Governor Phipps dissolved the witch hunt courts, and early the next year, he pardoned all those still held on witchcraft accusations with the exception of Tituba because racism. January 1697, the Massachusetts General court declared a day of fasting for the tragedy of the Salem witch trials, declaring them unlawful, later restoring the names of the condemned and providing financial restitution until about about 15 years later. Now, of course, this did not have any effect on Tituba who remained in jail for until April 1693, a full year after she had been accused, and six months after everybody else had already been pardoned and released. She stayed in jail because Samuel Parris, who had enslaved her and then beaten a confession out of her, refused to pay her jail fees. She was eventually purchased by an unknown person and then left jail but remained enslaved for the rest of her life. In an interview later in her years, she said that she only confessed to witchcraft because Samuel Parris had been beating her.

Kanani 26:47 Shocking.

Hilary 26:47 Yeah, I mean, that's what you're going to. I mean, there's some point you're like, I'm going to break and that's what this type of torture is.

Kanani 26:55 Part of what kept this going for so long, in my opinion, is One of the things that it was also happening is, like I said, if you admitted it, everything you had was confiscated. And the sheriff of this town actually, during this time, made a lot of money and was taking a lot of things personally, that that other people weren't necessarily paying attention to. So there's a lot of people who profited from taking things from all of these people who were accused. So they kind of let it happen. Plus, he was making money by having people in jail because I think some of that was being pocketed by him as well. And I cannot remember the name and it's bugging me right now. But what actually stopped it was there was someone who was accused, who was the the daughter or the wife of a high profile person who went to the governor, and was like "Enough. Now, this is in my family. This isn't funny anymore." And the governor put pretty much put the kibosh on it but what it took was someone high profile, someone that they cared about being accused, to get the

governor involved. And then they just, I mean, because it was ridiculous. So he just, you know,

Courtney 28:07 well, do we know what happened to the two girls that started these accusation?

Kanani 28:11 Nothing,

Courtney 28:12 nothing happened.

Kanani 28:13 Nothing. There was no punishment. Suddenly they were better. They live normal, natural lives post all their accusations. Yeah. Yeah, it was it was part of what's interesting, and it happened faster in Europe than it did in the States. Really, what stopped the witch hunts and things of this nature was when people started making government secular, which happened in England far sooner than it happened over here. And science, hashtag science, hashtag science. So people started realizing, oh, well, just because I can't explain it doesn't mean there isn't an explanation. Yeah, and they started looking to science. So that really Is what evolved away from

Courtney 29:03 so the age reason, when it finally showed up in the in North America, at least among the colonists,

Kanani 29:09 yes. But that's the background.

Courtney 29:12 Reason was probably already in North America far before the colonists came, but they were quite slow to catch up.

Phillip 29:19 But the fear state there because this story reminds me of the 1940s, 1950s, McCarthyism. Yeah. It's the same story. He had one person pointing the finger at others because they were doing something different. And they just raise fear and and raised his profile as well, too. I'm sure he made a ton of money off of it.

Courtney 29:40 Yes. And that's that was Arthur Miller's inspiration for writing "The Crucible," which is based on the Salem witch trials and is a it was a very good movie, at least back in the day, there might be another...Have you seen that one?

Kanani 29:51 Well, I've seen it I don't know that. I've seen it recently. But I did--

Courtney 29:53 That might be another one for you to review again.

Kanani 29:55 I did like it when I saw it. I would be super I'm gonna be super pissed though if I watch it again and I don't like it. Really

Courtney 30:00 Well the acting is, at least you've got Winonna Rider

Hilary 30:03 it was pretty good. I liked it. Because it's a period movie anyway, it's not it wasn't you know, it's not like kitschy to throw the 80s or the 90s or "The Crow" where it's like kind of that that 90s horribleness.

Courtney 30:22 Kanani is never gonna forgive us for making her watch that movie.

Hilary 30:25 i love "The Crow," but I mean, that's just because of nostalgia.

Courtney 30:27 It's terrible. It's terrible.

Hilary 30:29 It's terrible, but it's it's like when you watch something this bad, but it's like something that reminds you of a good time of your childhood. It's much less offensive.

Kanani 30:37 It's a lie.

Phillip 30:40 I think one of you just saw "The Crow," right?

Kanani 30:43 I did. It was terrible. Don't watch it. Don't do it.

Phillip 30:48 It was after the fact, though. It was like 20 years after the fact.

Kanani 30:51 Oh, yeah, I didn't watch it when it was like

Relevant. Exactly. Definitely not relevant anymore.

Hilary 30:53 relevant?

Oh my god.

Kanani 31:00 But, um, so I guess so now that we've kind of gone over what it was, and what happened, which I feel we gave a really good synopsis of, of what happened? Um, do you want to throw out a....

Phillip 31:13 While I'm going to pose the question to you three. Okay. So you are the experts, you are to me from the subject. If back in February 1692. If Tituba was truly a Witch, along with Sarah Good and Sarah Osbourne, and it was more or less just a religious belief that they were practicing. And they really did come out to say, "Yes, we are riches, this is what we believe in," what would happen? And let's say there were about 50 more people in this village that also had the same beliefs. What would happen during this time period in in 1692?

Hilary 31:58 I have two thoughts off the bat. I think if there were enough people, enough percentage of the population of people that that had the same belief system or that were practicing, I think you could have assumed that there would have been some sort of uprising or or, you know, fight against any sort of attacks towards them. Because when you only have a small amount of people compared to the rest of it, I mean, what are you going to do? You all three, three of you are going to fight hundreds of people? Like that's not going to work. I think if it was just those three, and they truly were and they and and they admitted to it. I don't think that anything different would have happened because we know that when people admit to practicing things outside of acceptable religion historically, when they've done that they've been persecuted.

Courtney 32:51 I think it would have lasted longer. Yeah, I think that it would not have been dismissed as hysteria. I think it probably--well, one of two things. It would have lasted longer And I feel that it may have provided the opportunity to, I think it's a certain point reason would have stepped in and said, this is this is religious persecution, and we can't we can't do it. And so it might have opened the door for, um...

Kanani 33:17 But they persecuted other people all the time

Hilary 33:19

Yeah, I was going to say because I think in that time period, I think religious persecution was common regardless, right? I mean, you know, the Puritans thought indigenous people and their religious practices were crazy. And outside of stealing their land, they also thought that they were evil because of their practices.

Kanani 33:38 So I haven't I have an interesting theory. So I agree with Hillary and that if there were three people, I think they just would have been killed. Right?

Phillip 33:46 Yeah. Right. Same here.

Kanani 33:46 They would have killed you can you can fancifully say "oh, well, they would have you know, tried to use spells or try to use you know, you know, energy to get people..." you can't turn an you know, an entire town. With three people. Now, if you had, say, 15, right?

Hilary 34:06 Or fifty.

Kanani 34:07 Or 50, let's say but even if you have so like you have a group, you have 50 people practicing it. It means that they all know that each other practices it, which also probably means that their families know that they practice it. So now you're starting to develop kind of a community cushion of people who will protect you. Yes. And how you will protect each other. And where you might be able to fight back on accusation, even if you are lying, even if you don't admit it, and you say, you know, "oh, no, I'm not doing anything. You know, I just, you know, I'm just good at helping people get better, you know, that's my gift from God, you know," or something like that. I think that then you are provided with some sort of a cushion. Because I feel like if you have that the more numbers you have, the more people know, the more accepted it is, whether it's just the Even if it's not necessarily, quote unquote, accepted, it's just kind of people knowingly turned a blind eye and are okay with it. But I feel like then you have kind of a cushion, in which case, I feel like it, it ultimately would have become a more have actually been their belief, it would have become a much more common belief a lot faster and it would have grown in, in its religious nature.

Hilary 35:24 I also think part of the factor there that would have mattered or made a difference is the prominence of the families that were involved. So yes, when if you're looking at that if the group of people if there was 20, 30, 40 non prominent families or poor people, you know, I think no one gives a shit. I mean, that's just the reality. I think if there were prominent families that were involved, I think, I mean, the thing is, is prominent families were able to change the face of many things, many rules many

belief systems about Many political systems to their advantage because of the power they held in both stature and wealth. So I think it would also depend on that. I agree with kanani. That if you know, while I do believe, obviously a manifestation and creating magic and affecting change, you know, as we know, and as we see play out now, and many times through history, I don't know that you might be able to have some effect, but you can't stop hordes of people coming to kill you, you know, just on a dime like that.

Courtney 36:39 Yeah, we can curse them for generations, but you may not live to see it.

Hilary 36:42 Yes, correct.

Courtney 36:43 I wonder though, with the exception of Tituba because she was not living there by choice. I wonder if the other if there if others were witches, that were like practicing a faith of witchcraft. I don't think they would have lived among the Puritans. They might have had a separate community. It might have been starting to point fingers at that community over there. And it would have had different sort of probably much more violent, and probably much more begun a system of of another system of oppression, built out of there.

Kanani 37:18 Well, because, and I agree with you because as we were talking, that's kind of what I started thinking about was the reality is I don't believe that it could have existed in those kinds of numbers in that kind of a social climate. Right? Because it just wasn't okay. And so I don't think that you are going to be able to get people to evolve to that nature where there could have been a dozen or 15 people practicing even if it was only open in their own homes, without it becoming a thing. So I agree with you, Courtney, that if that were to have actually manifested itself that they would have actually left and kind of, you know, with their husbands with their children maybe and formed their own community, purely for safety, knowing that they weren't going to have safety and the way that these communities were.

Phillip 38:07 That's what I was thinking where yes, at the very beginning, they did live in the same community, but it was almost a front where they did not want to get exposed. But once they did get exposed, and other communities started to hear about them. Yes, they started to move out west or up north towards Canada, or west towards Pennsylvania and Michigan and Ohio to get away from them, which causes a whole other story because they had the Native Americans who still had much of the territory back then.

Kanani 38:39 Right.

Hilary 38:39 Yeah, I mean, I think we saw that in in the colonies in general. People that either decided they didn't agree with what was happening, or they, I mean, many people at some point were like this, "we have we want to do this differently, or we want to go to a different area, because of because they didn't agree with the way things were going." There's lots of offshoots of the original colonies that happened that's how it continued to spread, you know? I mean, that's part of the way obviously part of it was was like a plan of of the original colonists.

Kanani 39:12 and part of why they would be so unsafe is the concept of witchcraft in and of itself is that the because it is predominantly female. It in women have power, which is 1,000% unacceptable at this period of time, and everything is patriarchal and everything is about the men, and it would never ever be acceptable or something that people would tolerate for there to be, you know, women in power.

Phillip 39:42 But let's hold that thought for a second. Okay, let's hold that thought. So let's say that there were about, let's say, 500 people all throughout the Northeast, they all came together once they started to get exposed and they started to move west. And to your point, it did empower women. And they did create their own villages and cities with that mentality. How will that impact some of the new territories territories in America in the early 1700s?

Kanani 40:19 Everything would be better. EVERYTHING.Seriously?

Phillip 40:21 I mean, seriously! Really, you know, think about that, for a second.

Kanani 40:22 For me, I'm entirely serious. I think everything would be better, because part of what everyone is fighting for is a natural sense of balance. And if 300 years ago, we had started that process of finding male-female balance, I think that we would be in an infinitely better place right now.

Courtney 40:24 I would say it would be better for some but not all, because you would still have these (communities) would probably be led by white women. These are European communities? And so you're having--and white women have been traditionally very, very much pillars of white supremacy and racism and so I don't think It still would have ended up better for the indigenous peoples.

Kanani 41:03 True.

Hilary 41:04 Yeah, agreed.

Courtney 41:04 And also wouldn't have necessarily been better for those who were enslaved, of Africa descent.

Hilary 41:11 100%.

Courtney 41:11 So I think it would have been better for white ladies in the long run. I think that white women would have had equality faster. But I would not go so far as to say that everything would be better. I think that we would still have the challenges of, of it is possible that the white supremacy issues would have happened sooner with these communities moving out west.

Hilary 41:32 Yeah.

Courtney 41:33 Right? And, and so I think that that would be something that we would we would still be working through. But I think that white women would have had probably probably would have had a White Lady President by now at certain point.

Kanani 41:45 Yeah. Part of Well, I think there's a universal truth. Sadly, that power corrupts. So while you want a balance of power, I think I don't honestly know if you can ever have the concept of someone having power without a level of corruption, I just don't know that that's, that's possible to to a full extent. So I think it's true what you're saying that even if there was more of a male-female balance that it's not because it was still so you know, European white centric, that that balance of power isn't going to you know flush over everyone. It will still be primarily for European you know, white people.

Hilary 42:32 yeah i mean i think that you know, could could socially things have changed for for again for white women 100%? But women being in power doesn't mean that people don't get oppressed, right? Power doesn't erase racism.

Kanani 42:48 True.

Hilary 42:48

It doesn't erase the genocide and theft of native indigenous land, or sorry--genocides of indigenous people and theft of their land, like I mean, could could this approach have been different? Could society's structure been slightly different? Sure. I don't think it would have stopped any of the injustices against indigenous people or those that were enslaved.

Courtney 43:13 I'm curious to hear what would Philip heard from PUG.

Hilary 43:17 Yeah, I would like to know what PUG said,

Phillip 43:19 Well, PUG did mention that there is going to be a holy war that's going to happen in the 1700s. Because the Puritans, they didn't just allow those people to leave and go out west. They thought it wouldn't, because to your point, this is a different religion, They still think that they worship the devil, Satan, and that has to be stopped. So there is a causal holy war that's going to happen in North America starting in the 1700s, to be precise 1712, and it's going to last until 1718. Because of these two factions.

Hilary 43:53 I think that's a really good point because I imagine if they needed backup, they would have people just bringing in more people from Europe to help fight the devil.

Phillip 44:02 Correct.

Hilary 44:03 Religious hysteria. It's easy to get people on board when religious hysteria is involved.

Phillip 44:08 Yeah, this is bigger than just land or skin color. This is about good and evil and their eyes, not my eyes and their eyes, per PUG. And a lot of people died. And that's really where PUG is saying that, that just pushed the people even further west, because they were dying. 10s of thousands of people were dying during this war, all because of religion. They just had a different belief system. That's all it really came down to.

Courtney 44:38 So first, the colonial America repeats the the witch hunts of Europe, and then they repeat the Inquisition.

Phillip 44:49 Yep.

Courtney 44:50 Okay.

Kanani 44:53 That makes sense.

Courtney 44:55 So then what happens?

Phillip 44:57 The war does finally come to an end. Again, thousands of people, they do die. And they do finally settled, as where I was getting to, like their own state. They finally do settle in the northwest of America, they find like a small territory. And they're not--

Kanani 45:13 Can we have Oregon? Can I just ask for that? Can we have Oregon? It's all I want. Oregon.

Phillip 45:18 It wasn't, it was in Montana. But we can adjust a little bit, you know, for this episode.

Kanani 45:24 Montana is big, I'll take it.

Phillip 45:26 And that's where they settle at, where they just settle a little bit in the northeast/Northwest area of Montana. And that's where their community started to really grow. Also, once our nation is finally founded, you do have the right to any religion that you want. That played a key role in leaving these people alone.

Kanani 45:51 When Yeah, when the United States finally decided to have a secular government

Phillip 45:54 Correct. Later on the 1700s.

Courtney 45:59 So then I'm sure curious to see what would with these people far out in the in the northwest, would they take part in the Revolutionary War? Or would they just be like, screw you? We don't have anything to do with this country. Would they even join the union?

Phillip 46:14 They do still joing the Union, just like how Utah did. And there's a lot of similarities between those two states; Utah and Montana, where yes, they're still part of the Union. They couldn't survive on their own. But witchcraft is the base of the state.

Hey, this is where you want to practice. That's where you go. And it's not just in America, people from all around the world, they start to migrate there. And it's not just because of witchcraft. It's also because of freedom of religion in the state.

Courtney 46:50 So it sounds as though Montana becomes the most religiously diverse or becomes a more religiously diverse area of the United States.

Phillip 46:58 For the most part. They don't want too many outsiders coming into play. Well it's known for witchcraft but yes you can practice anything you want there.

Kanani 47:09 I like it.

Courtney 47:11 Kanani's in. What'll they call it? Witchlandia? The state of Witchlandia?

Kanani 47:19 I love it.

Courtney 47:19 I'm gonna run for governor. I want to run for governor of Witchlandia.

Kanani 47:22 Oh dear...

Courtney 47:22 You can be a senator. You can go to DC.

Kanani 47:24 Oh, I will!

Courtney 47:25 You'd be great. Senator Soleil.

Kanani 47:27 Free Blizzards for life. Good times.

Courtney 47:31 Tax write off on your Dairy Queen bills.

Kanani 47:33 Yes! Sold!

Courtney 47:33

I just did my taxes. We should find a way for you to write off your Dairy Queen bills.

Kanani 47:38 We should.

Courtney 47:38 Business expenses, your food. While you're here.

Phillip 47:40 You guys are making me hungry now.

Kanani 47:42 I know. (Laughs)

Courtney 47:44 Hillary is quiet and she's just stepped out to order us lunch because we're recording two episodes today. So we're going to make sure we can get some food in between.

Kanani 47:51 I'm ornery enough when I'm not hangry. So hangry is not a good look for me.

Courtney 47:57 So another curious question I have. Is Witchlandia actually a state during the Civil War? And does it joined the Union or the Confederacy or does it abstain altogether?

Phillip 48:10 It stays with the Union. It's still as a territory, though, during the Civil War. It doesn't become a full state until the Reconstruction period.

Courtney 48:18 Okay.

Phillip 48:19 But there are no slaves there.

Courtney 48:21 Is this a place where enslaved people could go west? And would they be would it be a safe place for them?

Phillip 48:28 This is a free state.

Courtney 48:29 Okay.

Yeah, but I'm just thinking I'm just thinking about some of the the racism and oppression that even going north (they) were dealing with, would it be a place where where people have been enslaved can thrive?

Phillip 48:43 Hm, that's a good question. PUG did not mention anything about that.

Courtney 48:46 Okay.

Phillip 48:47 But they were able to go there. It was a free state.

Courtney 48:52 And so what is Witchlandia like today?

Phillip 48:56 Think of Utah. They have their own rules, there. They have their own rules. They're a lot of outsiders that still believe in God and still think that there's just evil things happening there. And I usually stay away from the state, almost like Haiti in modern day where...I don't know why Haiti has like a bad, like, turn to it for some reason. People just think there's a whole lot of black magic happening on that island, which I don't think that's the case. It's just a very poor island to speak of.

Courtney 49:28 And that's because the religious differences because a number of people that live in Haiti are Voudon practitioners, yeah. So--

Phillip 49:36 That's that state in America,

Courtney 49:39 And definitely in the 2016 election, Witchlandia went for Clinton, right?

Phillip 49:44 (Laughs) Um, true.

Courtney 49:46 Okay. And what does the future of Witchlandia look like?

Phillip 49:56 We didn't go to the future. We just went up until 2020 and as of right now, again, it's almost like the state of Utah. They have their own rules. You can practice any religion, but it's known for witchcraft. And people from all over the world they do visit this place just to see what's happening there.

Kanani 50:20 Damn it I want that to be a real thing.

Hilary 50:22 I'm like, Can that be our place?

Kanani 50:23 I know!

Hilary 50:25 Let's just start Witchlandia.

Phillip 50:28 Why don't you three? Do it!

Kanani 50:30 For the record, don't run to Montana and and and and do this because I'm not so certain you're going to be welcomed into your fellow communities.

Courtney 50:37 There's only like four people living in Montana. Plenty of room. Lots of space.

Hilary 50:42 Alaska?

Phillip 50:44 Alaska's too cold.

Hilary 50:48 Montana is super cold.

Kanani 50:51 Well, Courtney, you had a little activity and you had come up with if the Witch Hunts happened today.

Courtney 51:00 How you could tell if somebody was a witch? So during the witch hunts of Europe, if somebody was suspected of being a witch, they would go under, if they didn't confess, under torture, they would throw them in the lake. And if they floated, they were a witch. If they sank they weren't, but then they were also very likely to drown because they didn't always run out and go get them right away. Also, it was said that if you poked someone in if they didn't have pain, they then they were a witch. Or if they had moles. I'd be screwed because I have this giant mole over here on my face. And then also they said that if you couldn't recite the Lord's Prayer, that you were a witch, but normally that person had been starved and sleep deprived and maybe wasn't even all that that well versed to begin with.

Kanani 51:47 Yeah, may not have even been literate.

Courtney 51:49 So they so trying to recite the Lord's Prayer when you're tired, you're hungry and scared. Yeah, so you miss one word, then you're a Witch. But it would be a little more challenging today. But there are a few qualifications that if somebody were trying to figure out if someone were a witch, here's how they would be able to tell:

So, you wish the accused which a happy Sam-hayne...

Kanani 52:14 Son of a bitch...

Courtney 52:15 ...and see if they this spontaneously combust into a fiery ball of rage and revenge. You check their wine glasses for traces of Mead. However, you also need to check their coffee cups which are also likely to contain traces of Mead. Their house smells like lavender, sage, and the smashing of patriarchy. Asking their opinions of the "True Adventures of Sabrina" will elicit some kind of foam-mouthed fervent reaction, either positive or negative. Yeah, never neutral on this show.

Kanani 52:38 (whispers) I've never seen it.

Courtney 52:50 Well, you're going to have to watch it.

Hilary 52:52 I'm like so excited to see her reaction. I have a feeling I already know what it's going to be but I just cannot wait.

Courtney 52:57 Have you seen it?

Hilary 52:58 Oh, yeah.

Courtney 52:59 Okay, so the fervent reaction is Hilary's bouncing in her seat. Okay. A Witch will have a Michael's stores rewards account.

Kanani 53:06 yes!

Courtney 53:09 They know which of "The Craft" sisters they quote unquote are aka "I'm a total Nancy or I'm more of a Rochelle." An additional Witch test requires saying "Watch out for the Weirdos out there" and they automatically respond with "We ARE the weirdos, Mister." They know the Bible better than their Christian relatives. They can throw verses back in the faces of these relatives at holidays when they're told they're going to hell. They also know which Bible verses are best for cursing and binding these Christian relatives as well as the presidential candidate the relative supportive in 2016. Their pets are their children, and they know their pet's sun sign. The same is true with their plants. A Witch has tattoos--lots of them, a Spotify playlist which has a far higher than average number of plays of Evervescence.

Kanani 53:58 Evanescence!

Courtney 53:59 Evanescence!

Hilary 54:01 Oh my god.

Kanani 54:02 You are killing me right now.

Hilary 54:03 Also, I hate Evanescence.

Kanani 54:05 Okay, first of all, Amy Lee's my girlfriend. So stop.

Hilary 54:07 Okay, sorry. Okay.

Courtney 54:09 Okay FINALLY! Finally, the Witch rarely leaves the house, but when they do, they're most likely wearing a corset, fairy wings, top hat and false eyelashes, usually all at the same time. This is true for all genders of witches.

Kanani 54:21 It's true

Courtney 54:22 So those are the tests that a modern day Witchhunter would use to determine if someone is a witch

Hilary 54:29

I feel like these are legit.

Courtney 54:31 They also are found listening to That Witch Life podcast!

Hilary 54:35 We're gonna get our listeners killed. What are you trying to say over here?

Kanani 54:40 Yeah, you're making it too easy to spot.

Hilary 54:43 Oh my god. Evanescence.

Kanani 54:47 She said it correctly. See?

Courtney 54:48 Evanescence.

Kanani 54:50 See? You just said it right.

Courtney 54:50 Evanescence. I did! I like the band. I just never hear their names said aloud. They just show up in my playlist and I'm like, 'Oh, nice! Add that! Favorite that! Evanescence. Evanescence.

Hilary 55:03 Every time I hear that band, it's not that it's bad. I just like so many people are like "Will you sing that?" I'm just like, "Oh...god..." and I just just fall off a chair.

Courtney 55:11 But you do it for money. I'm sure.

Hilary 55:13 I don't know. I've gotten picky in my old age. I paid those dues a while ago. I could be picky.

Kanani 55:21 Well, thank you so much for hanging out with us, despite us. And sharing your ideas.

Phillip 55:29 Despite you? This was fun. Thank you for letting me come on.

Courtney 55:34

Aside from the violent holy war, I really really wish we could live Witchlandia.

Hilary 55:39 I would like to live in Witchlandia.

Kanani 55:43 I think we're going to be depressed now all day that that's not a real thing we want. We want to, we want PUG's reality.

Phillip 55:53 Well, yeah, thank you for letting me on your show. This is fun.

Courtney 55:56 So tell people where we can find you or find your show.

Phillip 56:00 So we're on all of the major podcast services. Apple is the biggest one. Just look for 'History's What if?' And you can head to our website that's www.historyswhatif.com. And we are on all of the social medias or on Facebook or Twitter, or Instagram. Just look for HIstory's What If.

Courtney 56:22 are there any specific episodes you're really excited about coming up on your show?

Phillip 56:27 So later on today, I am recording a show that's going to deal with the aftermath of World War Two. But we're going to say what if women had the majority control of America after world war two? Pretty much they never gave up their jobs.

Kanani 56:42 interesting...

Courtney 56:44 Rosie the Riveter didn't go back into the kitchen. Of course unless you want to be in the kitchen because that is also feminism is to do what calls to you whether or not that is in the kitchen. Yeah.

Phillip 56:57 We're gonna walk around for women's month that's happening in March. So that's gonna be the first episode happening in March.

Kanani 57:03 That's, that's awesome. I love that. That's a great topic. Well, thank you so much for joining us. We really enjoyed having you on and, and enjoy your podcast. So thank you so much for coming and being a part of ours.

Phillip 57:16 Thank you. I hope we chat again. Okay.

Kanani 57:18 Alright, thanks so much.

For our listeners, if you have questions for us to answer on the show, please email us at thatwitchlifepodcast@gmail.com. For resources and archived episodes, you can go to our website at thatwitchlife.com. If you like us, please rate and review us on Applecasts or whatever platform you listen to us on. It helps us to actually find out what platforms people are using to listen to us which is really helpful. And don't forget to check out our Etsy store to see all the goodies we have available. Follow us at ThatWitchLife on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter and in our Etsy store. The spell cards because a lot of people like to order more than one and I get people who ask you know, if I order more than one How do I know I won't get the same. We actually have nine different spell cards. And so if you order anywhere from one to nine, you will get a different spell for all the different cards that you order

Hilary 58:16 Kanani packs those herself so she'll make sure that you don't get a double.

Kanani 58:20 I will I will always make sure that someone does not get two of the same cards. Three were written by Courtney, three spells by myself, and three spells were written by Hillary. So you have a chance of one of nine spells. So thank you guys for joining us and have a wonderful rest of your week.

58:35 (Exit music) Join us on the first and third mondays of the month for magickal tools, tips, and stories about living as a Witch in today's world. Find us at thatwitchlife.com for archived episodes or to ask your burning questions for us to answer in a future podcast. So mote it be!

Transcribed by https://otter.ai