F i l e No. 9 1 1 0 0 0 2

WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW

CHIEF F I R E MARSHAL LOUIS GARCIA

I n t e r v i e w D a t e : O c t o b e r 2 , 2 0 0 1

T r a n s c r i b e d b y N a n c y F r a n c i s

L . GARCIA

MR. McALLISTER: This is Kevin McAllister

from Administration. It is October 2nd at 11:06 a.m.

We're with Chief Garcia in his office. I am joined

by --

FIRE MARSHAL CAMPBELL: Fire Marshal

Campbell.

MR. GILBERT: Steve Gilbert.

FIRE MARSHAL STARACE: Fire Marshal Starace.

CHIEF GARCIA: And Louis Garcia, Chief Fire

Marshal.

MR. McALLISTER: We're going to direct Chief

Garcia's attention to the morning of September the

llth, 2001, and we're going to ask Chief Garcia to tell

us about the events of that morning from his

perspective.

CHIEF GARCIA: Okay. That morning I was due

to play in the charity golf tournament at Douglaston

Golf Course. I probably got there somewhere about 7:30

I got to the golf course. I was in a foursome with

Supervising Fire Marshal James Kelty, Captain Gene

Kelty, who was the captain of 10 Engine located near

the World Trade Center, and also Captain James Johnson,

who works over in the Training Academy.

From the first tee of Douglaston Golf Course,

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ironically, you have a view of the World Trade Center.

In fact, those are the two buildings you can see from

Douglaston Golf Course. Douglaston Golf Course is in

Douglaston, Queens. It's approximately between 15 and

20 miles from Manhattan. From the first tee you see

the World Trade Center.

We teed off. I was on the second hole when I

was notified through my alphanumeric beeper that a

plane had gone into the World Trade Center. I got on

my cell phone, called EOC and said, in my exact words,

is this a fucking joke? And they said no, it's a

confirmed hit of a plane; it's confirmed the plane has

hit the World Trade Center.

At that point I turned around, James Kelty

was in my cart with me, we turned around, went up to

the first tee. I was going to go back. When we got to

the first tee, a police lieutenant -- and I don't know

his last name but his first name is Don. I can get his

last name. He's on the Mayor's detail. He's a

lieutenant on the Mayor's security detail of the City

Hall street detail. And right from that vantage point

you could see that the tower, the World Trade Center

tower, the north tower had been hit. There was smoke

billowing out from the tower and it was an unbelievable

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s i g h t , and Don was on t h e phone w i t h C i t y H a l l . I

remember s a y i n g t o K e l t y g e t me o v e r t o my c a r . So we

were t a k i n g t h e g o l f c a r t down t o t h e p a r k i n g l o t o f

t h e g o l f c o u r s e .

On t h e way down t o t h e p a r k i n g l o t o f t h e

g o l f c o u r s e , we h e a r d a rumble. We looked a round . We

t h o u g h t i t was r i g h t n e a r u s . And we looked up and

Don, who was s t i l l on t h e t e e box, t h e f i r s t t e e , s a i d

two p l a n e s h i t and p u t up two f i n g e r s .

On my way down t o t h e p a r k i n g l o t I t o l d

James Ke l ty , I s a i d I hope t h i s i s n o t a t e r r o r i s t

a t t a c k . When we were n o t i f i e d o f t h e second p l a n e

h i t t i n g , I knew i t was a t e r r o r i s t a t t a c k and I s a i d

I ' v e g o t t o go t o t h e s i t e .

So I l e f t him t h e r e , g o t i n my c a r . I ' m on

t h e way t o t h e c i t y , Manhat tan . I s t o p p e d a t my house ,

which i s r i g h t on t h e way. I d o n ' t l i v e t o o f a r from

t h e g o l f c o u r s e . I changed my c l o t h i n g , g o t on t h e

Cross I s l a n d Parkway and t h e n o n t o t h e Long I s l a n d

Expressway. At t h a t t i m e o t h e r emergency v e h i c l e s were

head ing i n t o t h e c i t y and we k ind o f made a ca ravan

a l o n g t h e Long I s l a n d Expressway on o u r way i n t o t h e

c i t y .

Q . Were you i n r a d i o c o n t a c t a t t h a t p o i n t ?

L . GARCIA

A. Yes. I could hear them doing two fifth

alarms. There were two fifth alarms being called in.

I was calling Hooper Street on my cell phone to ask if

Chief Richard McCahey had gone. They said he was on

his way. I got on the radio and I could hear fire

marshals responding from Manhattan, from Manhattan

base, also McCahey responding. He was trying to get

through the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel. And I also called

Hooper Street and I said the fire marshal of Hooper

Street, they should respond also. At that point Bobby

Byrnes was responding with fire marshals from SIU. I

didn't know if other fire marshals were needed, so I

didn't bother to call other bases to get Brooklyn,

Bronx or Queens to respond.

As I was responding, as you're going down the

expressway, of course, you get closer, you could see

the World Trade Center, both towers are burning.

Q. You're still on the Queens side of the

tunnel?

A. I'm still on the Queens side, yes. I'm going

over that hill right before you go through the tunnel

and you could see the skyline of the city.

Q. So you're west of the BQE at that point?

A. I'm probably -- no. The BQE? I'm past the

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BQE .

Q. So you're west?

A. I'm west of the BQE, yes.

I went through the tunnel with my caravan of

cars. They turned to go south down Second Avenue. I

went down Second Avenue south but I turned down 34th

Street. Let me see. Let me get this straight. In

fact, let me take that back. I don't know if I turned

down 34th Street or Houston Street. But I went south

for a while. It was either 34th Street or Houston

Street. But I wanted to go down the West Street side.

I was headed toward West Street because I wanted to go

down West Street and approach it from that side. I

thought I would have a better chance of getting closer

because West Street is a large street and I'd have

better chance of getting by the apparatus because it

would be parked on the side.

I went down West Street, went past Chambers

on West. Of course, you can see the towers burning all

that time. Every time you saw them.

Q. Both towers were still standing at that

point?

A. Yes, both towers were still standing. I went

down to West Street. I went past Chambers and I

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p r o b a b l y pa rked a b l o c k and a h a l f up from Vesey. I

pa rked r i g h t beh ind a r i g . I d o n ' t remember whose r i g

i t was. I pa rked beh ind a r i g , g o t o u t o f t h e r i g . I

remember t h e r e was a c h a p l a i n t h e r e . He c a l l e d h i m s e l f

a c h a p l a i n . I t h i n k h e ' s a r a b b i who works i n

c o u n s e l i n g . But he c a l l s h i m s e l f a c h a p l a i n . He had

h i s badge o u t and I know t h a t t h i s r a b b i works i n

c o u n s e l i n g and t h e c o u n s e l i n g u n i t w i l l be a b l e t o h e l p

you i d e n t i f y him. He h e l p e d me on w i t h my c o a t and I

g o t my he lmet , I g o t my t u r n o u t c o a t and s t a r t e d

wa lk ing down t h e s t r e e t .

I n f r o n t o f me I c o u l d s e e t h e two b u i l d i n g s

were b u r n i n g . I ' m wa lk ing down West S t r e e t . I ' m

p a s s i n g r i g s . There were a l o t o f o t h e r r i g s pa rked

t h e r e . I d o n ' t know t h e numbers. I d i d n ' t l o o k a t t h e

numbers o f t h e r i g s . I was on t h e west s i d e o f West

S t r e e t , wa lk ing on t h e west s i d e o f West S t r e e t . I

walked undernea th t h e n o r t h b r i d g e . I was t r y i n g t o

f i n d a command p o s t .

On t h e way down t h e r e , I c o u l d h e a r McCahey

e s t a b l i s h i n g a command p o s t on t h e s o u t h s i d e o f t h e

World Trade C e n t e r , and a f t e r l o o k i n g a t t h e b u i l d i n g s ,

I found t h a t I p r o b a b l y had more s p a c e on t h e n o r t h

s i d e , s o I r e a l l y wanted them t o come t o t h e n o r t h

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side. I was trying to contact them by radio in the car

to get them to go north. Well, first in the car I was

in radio contact and I was asking them exactly where he

was and he was trying to describe to me where he was on

West Street. I knew it was south from the position I

was at. But I hadn't assessed it yet until I got out

of the car.

So I get out of the car. I'm walking towards

him, going south on West Street. I go underneath the

north bridge and at that point I come across Chief

Ganci, Commissioner Feehan and Chief Downey and they're

standing across the street south of the north bridge

looking up at the buildings and they're talking about

what they're going to do.

Q. Were they on the west side of West Street?

A. They were on the west side of West Street.

They were on the sidewalk on the west side of West

Street. There were other firefighters around them. I

could see them. There were firefighters across the

street, but I didn't take note of who they were.

Q. And this would be on the west side near the

north bridge outside the World Financial Center?

A. South of the north bridge nearest the World

Financial Center on the west side of West Street on the

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s i d e w a l k . I c o u l d s e e t h e r e was g r a s s beh ind them,

l i k e a h i l l , l i k e a h i l l y g r a s s beh ind them. And t h e y

were t a l k i n g abou t w e ' r e go ing t o move command p o s t s .

They were r e a l l y i n v o l v e d i n t r y i n g t o d e c i d e what t h e y

were go ing t o do h e r e , s o I d i d n ' t r e a l l y d i s t u r b them

t o o much. My concern was moving my command p o s t t o

where I t h o u g h t i t would be s a f e .

Q . Both o f t h e b u i l d i n g s a r e s t a n d i n g a t t h i s

p o i n t ?

A. Both b u i l d i n g s a r e s t a n d i n g . And I d i d n o t

t a k e my r a d i o o u t o f my r a d i o c h a r g e r i n t h e c a r and I

c o u l d n ' t s e e McCahey. I was l o o k i n g s o u t h . I c o u l d n ' t

s e e McCahey. I was t r y i n g t o u s e my c e l l phone. My

c e l l phone d i d n ' t work. I was t r y i n g t o c a l l Hooper

S t r e e t o r h e a d q u a r t e r s s o t h a t t h e y can g e t on t h e

r a d i o and t e l l McCahey t o meet me n o r t h .

Befo re I g o t o u t o f t h e c a r , by t h e way, l e t

me b a c k t r a c k , b e f o r e I g o t o u t o f t h e c a r , I was

t e l l i n g McCahey I ' m n o r t h o f t h e b r i d g e . I ' l l meet you

down t h e r e . By t h e t i m e I g o t down t o Ganci , I f e l t

t h a t b e i n g n o r t h o f t h e World Trade C e n t e r was b e t t e r

t h a n b e i n g s o u t h . So now I wanted t o g e t a l a n d l i n e .

I remember a t one p o i n t -- and I d o n ' t know

i f i t was t h e f i r s t t i m e I e n c o u n t e r e d them o r t h e

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second t i m e -- p e o p l e were t a l k i n g abou t moving t h e i r

F i r e Department command p o s t n o r t h . So I f e l t t h a t t h e

f i r e m a r s h a l s ' command p o s t s h o u l d be n o r t h . I guess

i t may have been t h e f i r s t t i m e I saw them because f o r

some r e a s o n I s t a r t e d moving n o r t h on West S t r e e t

a g a i n .

I went back undernea th t h e b r i d g e , walked

n o r t h on West S t r e e t . I c o u l d n ' t u s e my c e l l phone. I

was t r y i n g t o u s e my c e l l phone. Then I t h o u g h t maybe

I s h o u l d g e t a l a n d l i n e s o I c o u l d a t l e a s t c a l l

h e a d q u a r t e r s , c a l l C h r i s Tempro and have them r a d i o

R i c h i e McCahey and t h e r e s t o f t h e m a r s h a l s t o meet me

up n o r t h .

Q . Can I a s k you one fo l low-up t o something you

ment ioned b e f o r e ? You saw Chief Downey, Chief Ganci

and B i l l Feehan o u t s i d e t h e World F i n a n c i a l C e n t e r .

During t h e t i m e you were t h e r e , d i d you e v e r s e e Tom

F i t z p a t r i c k w i t h t h o s e t h r e e ?

A. No, I d i d n o t s e e Tom F i t z p a t r i c k .

Q . Okay.

A. I walked n o r t h . Now I ' m n o r t h o f t h e b r i d g e

and t h e r e ' s some f i r e f i g h t e r s around me, t h e r e ' s

f i r e f i g h t e r s wa lk ing down p a s t me s o u t h and t h e r e ' s

some f i r e f i g h t e r s m i l l i n g a round . I d o n ' t know e x a c t l y

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what they were doing. I turned around, I heard

something, and I thought the facade and just the facade

of the south tower was coming down, and one of the

firefighters near me was saying holy shit, and I think

he felt the building was going to collapse. I wasn't

convinced of that at first. I thought maybe it was

just some facade falling. All of a sudden there was a

rumble and you see the building starting to collapse.

At that point I ran north on West Street as fast as I

could possibly run.

Q. At the point where you noticed the building

was falling, were you south of Vesey?

A. I was south of Vesey. I was probably midway

between Vesey and the north bridge, that north

overpass. I was probably midway there. And the

building started falling and I started running and a

lot of people started running. Whoever was around me

started running.

Q. Northbound?

A. Northbound. We were running northbound up

West Street. At one point I could turn around. I

turned around over my shoulder and I just saw this

cloud. I mean, the building collapsed. There was a

cloud coming at you. You knew you couldn't outrun the

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c l o u d . You j u s t k e p t on runn ing t r y i n g t o g e t away

from i t , b u t y o u ' r e n o t go ing t o o u t r u n i t , s o you k ind

o f r e s i g n y o u r s e l f t o t h e f a c t t h a t y o u ' r e go ing t o be

overcome by t h e c l o u d . You d o n ' t know w h a t ' s i n t h e

c l o u d . You saw a l o t o f p a p e r s f l y i n g around i n t h e

c loud , b u t you d i d n ' t know what s o l i d m a t e r i a l was i n

t h e c loud , what s t r u c t u r a l members o r f a c a d e was i n t h e

c l o u d t h a t c o u l d be coming a t you, s o t h a t you j u s t

k e p t on go ing . You ' r e overcome by t h e c l o u d . You

h e a r d t h i n g s h i t t i n g around you and you s a y t o y o u r s e l f

I hope n o t h i n g h i t s me. What can you say?

Q . At t h a t p o i n t , o r j u s t p r i o r t o t h a t p o i n t ,

d i d you know any o f t h e p e o p l e around you? Did you s e e

anybody you recogn ized?

A. No, I d i d n o t . I remember b e f o r e t h e c l o u d

g o t t o me t h e r e was a f i r eman n e a r me runn ing w i t h me,

b u t when t h e c l o u d o v e r t o o k u s , you c a n ' t s e e

a n y t h i n g . You had z e r o v i s i b i l i t y . What I d i d was I

r a n i n t o some f i r e t r u c k s . You r a n i n t o them. A l l o f

a sudden you saw a l i g h t i n f r o n t o f you f l a s h i n g where

t h e f l a s h i n g l i g h t s were on and you j u s t k e p t wa lk ing .

You c o u l d n ' t b r e a t h e . You c a n ' t b r e a t h e . You had a

v e r y tough t i m e b r e a t h i n g and y o u ' r e j u s t s a y i n g t o

y o u r s e l f I hope I g e t o u t o f h e r e . Your mouth i s f u l l

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of dust, concrete dust, whatever other kind of material

there was in the dust and smoke. Your mouth and your

nose is full of all that and you're just choking and

you're trying to breathe. There comes a point in time

when that dust cloud settles or the wind takes it away

from you and it becomes easier and easier to breathe

and all of a sudden it's clear.

Q. Any concept of how much time passed before

that happened?

A. I mean, it seemed like a long time, but it

could have been only two or three minutes. It seems

like a long time when you're in the middle of it. At

that time you looked at yourself, you're just full of

this dust from head to toe, your helmet, your coat,

everything. And I turned around and started walking

back to see what was happening. The second building,

the north tower was still standing, smoke coming out of

it. I'm walking back to see if I could find Ganci and

Feehan and the rest of them and see what we're doing

here now. I still didn't have communication with the

rest of my troops. I don't know where the rest of my

troops were. I don't know how this collapse affected

them. So I'm walking back towards where I last saw the

command post.

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Now, a t t h i s p o i n t I ' m n o r t h o f Vesey. I ' m

p r o b a b l y a b l o c k n o r t h o f Vesey. I p r o b a b l y walked t o

a b l o c k n o r t h o f Vesey. So I t u r n e d around and s t a r t e d

wa lk ing s o u t h , g o t t o around Vesey S t r e e t o r p a s t Vesey

S t r e e t and I saw some C h i e f s t h e r e , I saw a l o t o f

p e o p l e were t h e r e f u l l o f d u s t and t r y i n g t o c l e a n

themse lves o f f , s p i t t i n g , g e t t i n g i t o u t o f your mouth.

Q . Nobody you r e c o g n i z e d i n t h a t group?

A. No, n o t y e t .

Q . Okay.

A. And a t one p o i n t someone comes a l o n g w i t h a

w a t e r b o t t l e and g i v e s me a w a t e r b o t t l e t o wash my

f a c e o f f and wash my mouth o u t w i t h . And I ' m wa lk ing

now -- h e r e i s where my memory might be o f f . At one

p o i n t I t h o u g h t I saw Ganci and Feehan and I ' m n o t s u r e

i f I r e a l l y d i d . I ' m v e r y hazy. But I do remember

s e e i n g a Chief and i t may have been Ganci , b u t t h e r e

was a Chief t h e r e t h a t s a i d w e ' r e moving t h e command

p o s t two b l o c k s n o r t h , which i s t h e l a s t t h i n g , when I

h e a r d Ganci and Feehan t h e l a s t t ime , t h e y were

c o n s i d e r i n g moving t h e command p o s t n o r t h . Now w e ' r e

moving i t two b l o c k s n o r t h and p e o p l e a r e wa lk ing n o r t h

now.

Q . The second b u i l d i n g i s s t i l l s t a n d i n g ?

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A. The second b u i l d i n g i s s t i l l s t a n d i n g .

People a r e s t a r t i n g t o move towards me n o r t h and

everybody i s f u l l o f t h i s d u s t and a s h o r whatever you

want t o c a l l i t . And t h e r e a s o n I ' m s a y i n g I t h o u g h t I

saw Ganci , i t may have been someone s a y i n g Chief Ganci

i s o r d e r i n g .

Q . So you moved n o r t h on West S t r e e t , you were

moving toward --

A. No. I ' m moving s o u t h on West S t r e e t now.

I ' v e t u r n e d around and I ' m moving s o u t h . So now I ' m up

t o Vesey S t r e e t . I moved back towards Vesey S t r e e t

where I ' m e n c o u n t e r i n g p e o p l e moving n o r t h and t h e s e

p e o p l e a r e s a y i n g e i t h e r Chief Ganci o r d e r e d i t o r I

saw Chief Ganci , e i t h e r one, o r I might have s e e n S t e v e

M o s i e l l o . I ' m n o t s u r e . But t h e y s a i d t h e command

p o s t i s b e i n g moved two b l o c k s n o r t h and G a n c i ' s name

i s b e i n g ment ioned. At t h a t p o i n t I e n c o u n t e r e d J e r r y

Sheehan. During t h a t t ime , d u r i n g t h e t i m e p e r i o d

b e f o r e J e r r y Sheehan, I might have s e e n Chief P e t e

Hayden o v e r t h e r e . I b e l i e v e Hayden was o v e r t h e r e

around by Vesey S t r e e t .

J e r r y Sheehan i s t h e l i e u t e n a n t i n c h a r g e o f

t h e NYPD Bomb Squad. H e ' s an o l d f r i e n d o f mine. I ' v e

known him f o r 2 0 y e a r s . And J e r r y and I were t r y i n g t o

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use our cell phones. At this point I want to get ahold

of the marshals and just tell all marshals to stay away

from the building and Jerry wants to get ahold of his

Bomb Squad people. Neither of us had radios and

neither of us had cell phones that were working.

So I walked one half block west on Vesey

Street, on the north side of Vesey Street, one half

block west of the West Side Highway, of West Street.

There was a building and there was a parking lot in

front of the building with cars in it and on the bottom

floor was a bagel shop, like a bagel coffee shop type

place, and Jerry and I went in there and we started

using landlines. So Jerry made his phone calls and I

made my phone calls and I was on the phone with Chris

Tempro at headquarters.

A VOICE: That's the Embassy Suites?

CHIEF GARCIA: I don't know what the building

is but there's that shop. It's the north side of

Vesey.

A VOICE: Is it all the way down towards --

MR. McALLISTER: The movie theater; is that

the one you're talking about?

A VOICE: Yes. The movie theater is on the

corner there.

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CHIEF GARCIA: Well , t h e r e was no movie

t h e a t e r i n f r o n t o f u s . There was a p a r k i n g l o t

t h e r e . The movie t h e a t e r might be i n t h e b u i l d i n g on

t h e upper f l o o r .

A VOICE: Yes.

CHIEF GARCIA: And I g o t on t h e phone w i t h

C h r i s Tempro and I was go ing t o t e l l him j u s t g e t on

t h e r a d i o t e l l a l l f i r e m a r s h a l s t o r e t r e a t from t h e

b u i l d i n g , anybody s o u t h go s o u t h , two b l o c k s s o u t h ,

anybody n o r t h go two b l o c k s n o r t h o f t h e b u i l d i n g . I

a l s o had e n c o u n t e r e d James Devery, J i m Devery,

S u p e r v i s i n g F i r e m a r s h a l . I e n c o u n t e r e d him on t h e

s t r e e t , on West S t r e e t , and I saw F i r e marsha l S a l

R igno la . T h i s i s w h i l e I was wa lk ing down on West

S t r e e t b e f o r e I went on Vesey. F i r e marsha l S a l

Rignola was t h e r e and he had a r a d i o and he c o u l d n ' t

r a i s e anybody, which made me w o r r i e d abou t what was

happening. He c o u l d n ' t r a i s e anybody on h i s r a d i o .

But I l a t e r found o u t t h a t McCahey l o s t h i s r a d i o when

t h e b u i l d i n g c o l l a p s e d . I t o l d him I was go ing t o go

down t o t h e shop.

So J e r r y and I went down t o t h e shop. I was

g e t t i n g on t h e phone. I g o t C h r i s Tempro on t h e phone

when t h e second b u i l d i n g sudden ly c o l l a p s e d and we

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c o u l d s e e t h e second b u i l d i n g c o l l a p s i n g th rough t h e

windows o f t h i s c o f f e e shop. We were h a l f a b l o c k from

West S t r e e t and t h e c o l l a p s e was j u s t on t h e o t h e r s i d e

o f West S t r e e t and we saw i t c o l l a p s e . To me i t was a

f a s t e r c o l l a p s e t h a n t h e f i r s t c o l l a p s e .

Q . Tha t was t h e s o u t h tower?

A. The f i r s t c o l l a p s e was t h e s o u t h tower . The

second c o l l a p s e was t h e n o r t h tower .

Q . Okay.

A. The n o r t h tower was now c o l l a p s i n g , b u t t o me

i t was a more v i o l e n t c o l l a p s e . I d o n ' t know why. I

t h i n k because t h e f i r s t c o l l a p s e , t o me, I t h o u g h t a t

f i r s t , b e f o r e i t c o l l a p s e d , i t was j u s t t h e f a c a d e

go ing . T h i s seemed t o a l l o f a sudden go down. To me

i t was more v i o l e n t . I t may n o t have been i n r e a l i t y ,

b u t t o me i t was more v i o l e n t .

We g o t away from t h e windows. I dropped t h e

phone and we t o l d everybody t h a t was i n t h e c o f f e e shop

-- because t h e p e o p l e who worked t h e r e were i n t h e r e

-- t o g e t away and t h e r e were some f i r e f i g h t e r s o r EMS

workers t h e r e and t h e y were g i v i n g us a b o t t l e o f

w a t e r . We g o t away from t h e f r o n t windows because we

t h o u g h t t h e y were i n danger o f b lowing i n t o t h e

e s t a b l i s h m e n t . We went around i n t o a k i t c h e n a r e a .

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There was a door r i g h t i n th rough a k i t c h e n a r e a r i g h t

by t h e phones and we were l o o k i n g around t h e c o r n e r t o

s e e what was happening.

The c o l l a p s e o c c u r r e d . T h i s c l o u d a g a i n .

Once a g a i n , we 've g o t t h i s c loud , t h i s d a r k c l o u d o f

d u s t and smoke and whatever e l s e i s t h e r e . We g e t t h a t

coming towards t h e windows. The windows d i d n o t b r e a k

inward .

The c o l l a p s e was s u b s i d e d , s o we came o u t . I

g o t on t h e phone w i t h Tempro. I t o l d him t h e second

b u i l d i n g j u s t c o l l a p s e d .

Q . Was i t d a r k o u t s i d e t h e window?

A. Yes. You c a n ' t s e e a n y t h i n g . I t was z e r o

v i s i b i l i t y . The b u i l d i n g had j u s t c o l l a p s e d . I s a i d

g e t t h e m a r s h a l s on t h e r a d i o . See who you can g e t on

t h e r a d i o , number one, i f you g e t anybody on t h e r a d i o ,

and, number two, t e l l them t o g e t away from t h e s e

b u i l d i n g s .

We went t o t h e f r o n t door o f t h e c o f f e e shop

and mysel f and J e r r y Sheehan s t a r t e d c a l l i n g t o

p e o p l e . So we were r i g h t o u t s i d e o f t h e door o f t h e

c o f f e e shop. We s t a r t e d c a l l i n g t o p e o p l e t o s e e i f

p e o p l e would come t o us because we wanted p e o p l e t o g e t

i n t o t h e c o f f e e shop. And some p e o p l e d i d h e a r u s . We

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c o u l d h e a r them o u t t h e r e and we were c a l l i n g t o them,

c a l l i n g t o them. We g o t them i n t o t h e c o f f e e shop t o

g e t some w a t e r on them, on t h e i r f a c e s . The p e o p l e who

owned t h e e s t a b l i s h m e n t were t r y i n g t o h e l p o u t w i t h

t h e v i c t i m s .

When i t s t a r t e d c l e a r i n g a l i t t l e b i t , I saw

Chief B r i a n O ' F l a h e r t y . Chief O ' F l a h e r t y s a i d t o me

d o n ' t t o u c h my arm. He was i n j u r e d . Obviously , he was

i n j u r e d . His f a c e was c u t up. He looked l i k e he had a

broken nose because he was b l e e d i n g h e a v i l y from h i s

nose , and he was h o l d i n g h i s arm, s o I knew he had a

broken arm o r something s e r i o u s l y wrong w i t h h i s arm.

I s a t him down i n a c h a i r and I s t a r t e d t a l k i n g t o

him. I know B r i a n f o r o v e r 20 y e a r s , p r o b a b l y 25

y e a r s , and we g o t an ambulance. There were ambulances

west o f u s . On t h e w a t e r t h e r e were ambulances. There

was a t r i a g e s t a t i o n s e t up. So we were t r y i n g t o

d i r e c t B r i a n o f f t h e c h a i r a f t e r we washed o f f h i s f a c e

t o go t o t h e t r i a g e . We were go ing t o g e t him t o t h e

t r i a g e s t a t i o n and g e t him an ambulance.

Al so coming i n from West S t r e e t down Vesey

S t r e e t was P e t e Hayden b e i n g c a r r i e d by two

f i r e f i g h t e r s o r two o f f i c e r s . He c o u l d h a r d l y walk .

He r e a l l y needed h e l p wa lk ing . We were t r y i n g t o g e t

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him an ambulance a l s o . We g o t him i n t o t h e b a g e l shop

and we d i d some t r e a t m e n t . We gave him some f i r s t a i d ,

v e r y l i t t l e f i r s t a i d , b u t j u s t washing t h e i r f a c e s o f f

and h e l p i n g them t r y t o g e t t h e i r b r e a t h back . At t h a t

p o i n t I g o t some EMTs t h a t had some o f t h o s e gurneys o r

wha teve r .

Q . Back boards?

A. Not even back boards b u t gurneys , t h e ones

t h a t r o l l a l o n g t h e ground, and t h e y were s t a r t i n g t o

t a k e p e o p l e back t o t h e ambulances.

Q . About how many p e o p l e came i n t o t h e c o f f e e

shop?

A. I t c o u l d have been a s many a s t e n , t w e l v e .

You know, t h e y were coming i n and o u t . I f t h e y were

a b l e t o l e a v e , t h e y would l e a v e . They would wash o f f

and g e t themse lves composed and l e a v e .

Q . Uniformed and c i v i l i a n peop le?

A. Most ly uni formed p e o p l e . EMS p e o p l e , t o o .

Most ly EMS p e o p l e and f i r e f i g h t e r s . I do remember one

woman b e i n g c a r r i e d was a c i v i l i a n .

When I went back o u t , now i t ' s c l e a r e d , B r i a n

O ' F l a h e r t y has been t a k e n c a r e o f , P e t e Hayden, Chief

Hayden has been t a k e n c a r e o f . Myself and Sheehan

walked back towards West S t r e e t . West S t r e e t , o f

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course, is a mess. The bridge is now collapsed. The

north bridge is now collapsed. I see Fire marshal

Rignola and he has a radio with him still and I said to

him can you get somebody on the radio? He did get

somebody on the radio. I forget who it was. But they

were south of the World Trade Center. They were south

on West Street, way south.

He told me that he jumped into a tower ladder

when the second building collapsed and that a piece of

metal went right through his tower ladder, his front

windshield. He was down on the floor and it just

missed him. So he survived because he had gotten

himself down on the floor in his tower ladder. But I

saw the tower ladder. The cab was like demolished.

Q. So the tower ladder was stationary at the

time; nobody was operating it?

A. No, nobody was operating it. It was just

stationary. It was just parked there by West and

Vesey. He just jumped in there to get away from the

collapse and this piece of building went right through

the front windshield. Luckily he had gone down. He

was on the floor.

At that time Chief Fellini -- and I can't

tell you how long after. Everybody was kind of

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wander ing around on West S t r e e t wondering what t h e y

were go ing t o do . Some o f t h e f i r e C h i e f s were s a y i n g

w e ' r e moving n o r t h , w e ' r e moving n o r t h . Tha t seemed t o

be t h e theme f o r a w h i l e , moving n o r t h , moving n o r t h ,

you know, b e f o r e t h e second c o l l a p s e , and t h e n a f t e r

t h e second c o l l a p s e i t was t h e same t h i n g , l e t ' s move

n o r t h . At one p o i n t I saw Chief F e l l i n i f i n a l l y

a r r i v e d . He was t h e r e f o r some r e a s o n and he s t a r t e d

t a k i n g some c h a r g e o f t h e s i t u a t i o n and he t o l d

everybody w e ' r e moving n o r t h .

I t h i n k e v e r y b o d y ' s conce rn a t t h i s p o i n t

was, o f c o u r s e , who was t r a p p e d . There was no o r d e r

h e r e a t a l l . They were t a k i n g abou t where Chief Nigro

was and someone s a i d Chief Nigro i s i n t h e command p o s t

s o u t h ; h e ' s a l l r i g h t . People s t a r t e d r e a l i z i n g Chief

Ganci w a s n ' t a round . And t h i s i s j u s t g e n e r a l t a l k .

Q . Can you d e s c r i b e what you saw a s you looked

down West S t r e e t ?

A. Down West S t r e e t , w e l l , what I saw was two

b u i l d i n g s down, smoke coming from two b u i l d i n g s . The

c a r s t h a t were i n t h e p a r k i n g l o t , t h e r e was a f i r e i n

t h e p a r k i n g l o t i n f r o n t o f t h a t b a g e l shop I was i n .

I t was l i k e a b i g , open, empty l o t w i t h c a r s i n i t .

There was a f i r e t h a t s t a r t e d t h e r e and i t was

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spreading to other cars and once in awhile you'd have

some explosions there and the fire actually after a

period of time got pretty big because it was multiple

cars. Several cars were going at once. So some debris

from the building was burning and must have landed

there and started these cars on fire. So you had this

black smoke coming from these cars that were on fire,

which no one paid attention to. We all said so what;

let them burn themselves out. And you also heard what

I thought were gunshots.

Later on, in a conversation with Jerry

Sheehan, he told me those were real gunshots. Police

officers that were trapped were shooting their guns off

to try to draw attention to where they were trapped. I

found out later on that Commissioner Dunne was trapped

in a car in the first collapse and before the second

collapse had happened the Bomb Squad had brought a car

down because Dunne couldn't walk. He has a bad knee.

If you noticed, he's been on crutches for a while.

Q. Right.

A. So a Bomb Squad car had gone down and gotten

Commissioner Dunne right before the second collapse

occurred. Commissioner Dunne had been north of Vesey

Street when the second collapse had occurred because he

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was t a k e n o u t by c a r . He had been f i r s t t r a p p e d i n a

c a r i n t h e f i r s t c o l l a p s e . These a r e s t o r i e s I ' v e

h e a r d a f t e r w a r d s . And when F e l l i n i g o t t h e r e t h i n g s

s t a r t e d t o come i n t o o r d e r .

My concern , o f c o u r s e , was t h e f i r e

m a r s h a l s . So I was c o n c e n t r a t i n g on t r y i n g t o r e a c h

f i r e m a r s h a l s . At one p o i n t I found o u t t h a t R igno la ,

McCahey and a bunch o f m a r s h a l s were s o u t h o f t h e World

Trade C e n t e r and t h e y had moved towards B a t t e r y Pa rk .

And I knew I had f i r e m a r s h a l s down t h e r e .

What I d i d n ' t know was t h a t S u p e r v i s i n g F i r e

Marshal James K e l t y had l e f t t h e g o l f c o u r s e and was i n

10 Engine when t h e c o l l a p s e s o c c u r r e d w i t h h i s b r o t h e r ,

c a p t a i n o f 10 Engine . He d e s c r i b e d t o me what happened

t h e r e . When he g o t t h e r e , t h e r e were p e o p l e i n j u r e d

coming o u t o f t h e b u i l d i n g s and t h e y were t r y i n g t o

t r e a t p e o p l e and b r i n g them i n t o 10 Engine and t r y t o

t r e a t them, and what t h e y t h o u g h t was a t h i r d p l a n e

h i t t i n g was r e a l l y a t t h a t p o i n t t h e f i r s t b u i l d i n g

c o l l a p s i n g .

Q. 10 Engine i s on West S t r e e t ?

A. No. 10 Engine i s on L i b e r t y S t r e e t , on

L i b e r t y S t r e e t j u s t e a s t o f t h e p l a z a . Why t h e y d i d n ' t

g e t touched , I d o n ' t know. I mean, t h e f i r e h o u s e i s a

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l i t t l e b e a t up, b u t i t was s t i l l s t a n d i n g . I t ' s r i g h t

on L i b e r t y . H e r e ' s L i b e r t y .

A VOICE: R igh t h e r e ?

CHIEF GARCIA: Yes. Where i s t h e Trade

Cen te r?

A VOICE: T h i s i s 2 World Trade r i g h t h e r e .

A. Yes. T h e y ' r e r i g h t h e r e .

Q . Okay. Got i t . I t ' s d i r e c t l y s o u t h o f 2

World Trade?

A. Yes, 2 World Trade C e n t e r .

Q . G o t i t .

A. And t h e y were t r e a t i n g p e o p l e and everybody

was j u s t t r y i n g t o g e t t o r a d i o s t o s e e how t h e y were .

As t i m e p a s s e d , I was a b l e t o d e t e r m i n e where t h e r e s t

o f my m a r s h a l s were . Chief McCahey came around t o meet

me n o r t h o f t h e World Trade C e n t e r because I i n s i s t e d

on everybody coming n o r t h , b u t he s a i d t h e y were s a f e

down s o u t h , b u t he a l s o t o l d me Chief Nigro was i n a

command t r a i l e r by B a t t e r y Park , t h a t he was okay, t h a t

Chief Cassano was okay, b u t no one had s e e n Ganci o r

Feehan. The word was c i r c u l a t e d t h a t Ganci and Feehan

were t r a p p e d o r had been i n v o l v e d i n t h e c o l l a p s e .

There was no t a l k abou t Ray Downey. But Ganci and

Feehan d e f i n i t e l y . I saw S t e v e M o s i e l l o .

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After that they were just trying to organize

parties to go in there and try to get people out, and I

saw my marshals. Basically what we were going to do at

that point was stand by to see what we could help out

with the digging and we would later decide how we were

going to conduct an investigation and what kind of

investigation was going to be conducted.

Q. Did there come a time then when you did set

up a command post north of the site?

A. Not really. What we did was we used the site

south. I had more marshals south than north. But

there was no real formal command post ever set up. I

hung around. I was near the command post they were

setting up north of Vesey. I was near that command

post. And the concentration at that time, it's not

investigation, but everyone is thinking about how to

get people out, and people were trying to break up into

crews, it seemed like they were trying to break up into

crews, but there was a lot of confusion. There was a

lot of confusion.

Q. Any idea approximately what time it was now,

at this point in time?

A. This has got to be I'm going to say about a

half an hour after the second collapse. Before then

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really everybody was in a daze. Everybody was just

trying to assess the situation, and it was a tough

situation to assess.

Q. Sure.

A. I don't think anybody had ever seen anything

like this.

MR. McALLISTER: Are there any follow-up

questions? It's pretty clear to me.

Q. Chief do you have anything else that you'd

like to add, any other observations that you may have

had on that day?

A. Not really. My observations are that, I

mean, we've never had a situation like this. From an

operational point of view, even though I'm not a Chief

in operation, a fire Chief, I was a firefighter at

Rescue 1, I was a lieutenant in the South Bronx

fighting fires, and I had never seen so much fire in a

high-rise building. Never. Even when I was in Rescue

1 as a fireman in rescue in Manhattan. I have never

seen more than one floor going and an entire floor.

You're talking about multiple floors and the entire

floor from west to east, north to south, an entire

floor burning. That's a lot of fire. I don't think we

were capable of putting out that much fire in a

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building.

My other observation is that the airliners

crashing into the building may have weakened the

building, but that is not what caused the collapse.

What caused the collapse was the intense fire from the

jet fuel that continued burning along with combustible

materials on multiple floors and the fact that the

building was built with a core construction. The

floors were supported by the core and also by the skin

of the building, the steel outer skin of the building.

That's how those floors were supported. So here you

have an airliner coming in, one airliner came in

straight and hit on an upper floor, that was in the

north tower, and it hit probably in the 90s, the floors

it hit. The upper 90s it hit. The second plane, which

caused the first collapse, as it came into building

banked, it banked, so the wings, if you saw the film,

the wings hit multiple floors now. Now the amount of

floors that were hit were greater because the wings had

banked. So then you have the wings going into floors

above and below the main fuselage of the plane, and it

also hit near the corner and it hit on a lower floor,

probably 20 floors below, somewhere in the 80s, in the

low 80s, 83rd floor, somewhere along there, 83rd floor,

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81st floor. That's where the second plane hit. Now,

that's in the south tower and that's the first tower

that collapsed. So you have that plane hitting.

Now you have all this intense heat, you have

heat probably up even close to 2,000 degrees burning

here. Steel joists and steel I-beams, at 1,200 degrees

of heat they'll expand nine inches per hundred foot of

steel. So per hundred foot of steel, steel will expand

nine inches. So you have this expansion going on

because they've been subjected between 45 minutes to an

hour and a half to heat now. The second tower to

collapse was the first one hit. That was an hour and a

half after it was hit.

Q. What do you estimate the temperature was at

that time?

A. Reaching 2,000 degrees in those towers. So

now we're going to have these this steel expanding and

also it starts warping and twisting. So once it was

weakened to that point, the steel, besides the crash,

it was weakened by the fire, which really caused it to

collapse, one floor started collapsing into another

floor, and that's what caused the collapse. So it was

really the fire more than the plane crashing into the

building that caused the collapse.

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How do we operationally treat that in the

future? I don't think we can. I think we restrict our

efforts to try to get people out of the building, but

we don't have enough water or enough manpower to get up

in that building and put out a fire that's that

extensive in one of these buildings.

Q. In the period of time?

A. In any period of time. It will burn itself

out before. Either the building is going to collapse

or it's going to burn itself out. In the Empire State

Building, the Empire State Building would not have

collapsed. It's different types of construction. It's

not core construction. It's masonry, it's columns,

it's heavier built. But then, of course, you don't

have these big, open spaces. In the Empire State

Building it's more compartmentalized.

Q. Right.

A. So a building like the Empire State Building

would not have collapsed. You would have had a huge

fire there, you would have had a lot of floors burnt

out, you would have never put out the fire, it probably

would have burnt itself out also, but the building

would have stood. This type of construction, I don't

think we'd ever be able to put out a fire like this.

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We restrict our actions to evacuation rather than

trying to put the fire out, and that's the only

observation I could make.

MR. McALLISTER: Does anybody else have

anything? Okay. It's now 11:48 a.m. on October 2nd,

2001. This concludes the interview with Chief Garcia

of the Bureau of Fire Investigation. Thank you,

Chief.