1 -18- 11 polygamy reference case day23 - testimony & cross examination of ex flds member truman...

8/7/2019 1 -18- 11 Polygamy Reference Case Day23 - Testimony & Cross Examination of ex FLDS Member Truman Oler

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1Truman Oler (for AGBC)In chief by Ms. Horsman

1 January 18, 20112 Vancouver, B.C.34 (DAY 23)5 (PROCEEDINGS COMMENCED AT 10:00 A.M.)67 THE CLERK: Order in court. In the Supreme Court of8 British Columbia at Vancouver this 18th day of9 January, 2011, calling the matter concerning the10 constitutionality of section 293 of the Criminal11 Code, My Lord.12 MR. WICKETT: My Lord. Good morning, My Lord. I13 wonder if I might deal with a brief housekeeping

14 matter. I made reference in cross-examination15 yesterday to a newspaper --16 THE COURT: Right.17 MR. WICKETT: -- article and I neglected to ask that it18 be marked. I think she identified it and19 acknowledged it not to be marked as an exhibit.20 THE COURT: Okay. Well, I was thinking I was going to21 file it away. But she had adopted the paragraph22 so I didn't know that we really had to mark it,23 but if that's your wish.24 MR. WICKETT: Just for purposes of identification more25 than anything else.26 THE COURT: Sure. Okay. Exhibit.

27 THE CLERK: 130, My Lord.28 THE COURT: 130 thank you.2930 EXHIBIT 130: 2 pages; p/c; Internet Article31 titled "Bountiful polygamy case sets off alarm32 bells"; dated February 15, 20093334 MR. WICKETT: Thank you, My Lord.35 MS. HORSMAN: Thank you, My Lord. It's Horsman,36 initial K. for the Attorney General of British37 Columbia. The witness this morning is Truman38 Oler. Mr. Oler has sworn an affidavit that was39 filed in the reference. It's not one of the video40 affidavits, My Lord. It's a paper affidavit. I'm41 told it's Exhibit 38.42 THE COURT: Correct.43 MS. HORSMAN: Mr. Oler you understand that the court --44 I'm sorry. Swear him in.4546 TRUMAN OLER, a witness47 called by the AGBC,


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1 affirmed.23 THE CLERK: Please state your full name and spell your4 last name for the record.5 THE WITNESS: Truman Richard Oler. O-l-e-r.6 THE COURT: Go ahead.7 MS. HORSMAN: Thank you, My Lord.89 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MS. HORSMAN:10 Q Mr. Oler, you understand that the court here today11 is being asked to answer the question of whether12 the ban on polygamy in Canada's Criminal Code is13 constitutional?

14 A Yes.15 Q And the Attorney General for British Columbia has16 filed evidence in affidavit form from a number of17 individuals who have had direct experience living18 in polygamous communities, and you filed an19 affidavit in this proceeding?20 A Yes.21 Q And Mr. Oler, I have put a copy of your affidavit22 in front of you. Could you just confirm that23 that's the affidavit that you swore?24 A Yes. Yes.25 Q And the affidavit details your experience growing26 up in the FLDS community of Bountiful, British27 Columbia?28 A Yes.29 Q And so I'm going to ask you some questions today30 about your affidavit and I might refer you to31 various paragraphs and ask you to elaborate on it;32 okay?33 A Okay.34 Q Mr. Oler, starting with your family, who were your35 biological parents?36 A Dalmon Oler and Memory Oler.37 Q And can you tell us who Memory's parents were?38 A Ray Blackmore and Anna May Blackmore.39 Q And do I have it correct that Memory is Winston40 Blackmore's sister?

41 A Yes.42 Q And that would make Mr. Blackmore your uncle?43 A Yes.44 Q How many wives did your father Dalmon have?45 A Altogether six.46 Q And where in the chronology was Memory? Was she47 the first wife?


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1 A She was number two.2 Q And how many children did Memory and Dalmon have3 together?4 A 15.5 Q And where do you fall in that chain?6 A Number 13.7 Q And I think I've got it right that Jim Oler is a8 full sibling of yours; is that correct?9 A Yes.10 Q How old are you today, Mr. Oler?11 A 29.12 Q How many children in total did Dalmon have with13 all six of his wives?

14 A 47.15 Q I won't ask you to do it, I'll just ask you if16 it's possible. If I asked you to would you be to17 name all 46 of your siblings?18 A It would take quite awhile to recall them all and19 I would have to have a pen and paper to write it20 down, but I probably would be able to. Maybe, I21 don't know for sure.22 Q Now, in your affidavit you describe growing up in23 an area known as Canyon?24 A Yes.25 Q And at paragraph 4 you describe Canyon as being an26 area that is nearby but geographically separate27 from the main Bountiful community?28 A Yes.29 Q Is it true that the people you lived with in30 Canyon were part of the same religious community31 as Bountiful?32 A Yes. We were all part of the same group.33 Q And you lived in something that you described as34 the "big house" in canyon?35 A Yeah. It's the house my dad made or had made for36 his family. And it was a rather large house so37 that's why they -- they called it the big house38 because it would have been the biggest, I guess,39 amongst the community at the time.40 Q And did Dalmon live there with all of his wives

41 and children?42 A Not all of them all the time. As I have stated43 some of the other mothers -- well, all of them at44 one point or another moved to different locations45 throughout my childhood. My mom always -- we46 always stayed at the big house, but the other47 ladies on different occasions did come -- they


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1 moved away and would come back.2 Q So there would be other mothers and their children3 moving in and out of the house as you were growing4 up?5 A Yes.6 Q But you always lived there with your mother?7 A Yeah, my mom always stayed there.8 Q Now, your father has passed away?9 A Yes.10 Q And how old were you when he died?11 A 16. I think around 16.12 Q And you were still in the community at that point13 in time?

14 A Yes.15 Q Mr. Oler, I'm going to come back to ask you some16 questions about your experience growing up in17 Canyon as part of the Bountiful community, but I18 want to focus first on some of your evidence in19 your affidavit about the religious doctrine that20 you were taught as you're growing up?21 A Okay.22 Q You went to church in Bountiful?23 A Yes.24 Q And how often did you go to church?25 A The church service I guess was every Sunday. And26 I don't know if I stated in here, the other --27 they did have the Saturday morning -- they had28 Saturday morning -- well, the -- they called it a29 work day meeting but it was basically another30 church -- basically the same along the same lines31 as a church service but...32 Q Is that Saturday meeting the same thing as the33 priesthood meeting, or is that something34 different?35 A No, that's something different. It's -- well,36 what they called the work day meeting they would37 have a little bit of a church -- a church service38 basically similar, to talk about the same things,39 I guess, as church. And then those -- the work40 days that went along with the Saturdays that were

41 required for you to do, like on your Saturdays.42 Q And can you describe to us what the priesthood43 meetings consisted of?44 A The priesthood meetings for me growing up you --45 once you turned 12 you were allowed to go and it46 was just all the guys and they talked a lot about47 the work, about how we need to be doing our jobs


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1 and how well off we were. They always talked2 about that how we were doing -- how we were so3 blessed and so well off. They always talked about4 that a lot.5 Q Was that well off spiritually or financially or?6 A Financially. They talked about that. Just -- I7 see -- I look back now and I see just for -- I8 guess for maybe because they would -- sometimes9 talk about guys who wanted to go do their -- sort10 of their own thing and how they ended up -- well,11 they said they would come and they -- well, they12 would go make a lot of money but they weren't13 happy going out and making their money because

14 they weren't involved or whatever in the church15 and doing their own thing. They -- they would16 talk about that sometimes.17 Q And those -- I'm sorry, go ahead.18 A There was also talk in -- well, not in only the19 priesthood meetings but in the regular meetings of20 how they were always -- well, basically not just21 in church but everyday life, how you needed to be22 sheltered and how you need to train your children23 day in day out to be filled with the holy spirit24 every minute of every day, and be ready to give25 your heart and soul to the church or the prophet26 at any given time.27 Q And what were you taught specifically about the28 role of the man in your community?29 A The role. Probably the main thing for the -- when30 you're older and I guess basically throughout your31 life you're taught that you were supposed to look32 up to your priesthood head, the person who was in33 charge of your church or your area, I guess,34 whichever, and do whatever you were told to do by35 them. Also the other -- well, there's -- I guess36 basically we were always taught that a duty of the37 man was to be ready and willing at any point in38 time to drop everything, drop everything and go to39 do the prophet's will. You had to be ready to do40 that at any point.

41 Q And you make the point in your affidavit that when42 you were growing up the prophet was Rulon Jeffs;43 is that right?44 A Yeah.45 Q And the bishop in Bountiful was Winston Blackmore?46 A Yes.47 Q And so did you understand what Winston's role was


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1 within the church and in relation to Rulon's role2 as prophet?3 A Winston's role I guess was he was the bishop and4 so he -- we were all to basically check in with5 him. He was the -- I guess the number one man for6 the prophet in Canada through my majority of the7 time I spent in the colony or whatever.8 Q And Rulon Jeffs was down in the United States?9 A Yeah.10 Q That's where he lived; is that right?11 A Yeah, down in I think -- well, Colorado City, that12 area of Arizona.13 Q And so you've talked about the role, Mr. Oler, of

14 the man in your community. Can you tell us what15 the role of the woman was?16 A The main -- one of the main -- there's -- I guess17 there's so many different -- there's not one main18 thing but there's a lot of different things. To19 obey the men, the man. If they're old enough and20 were married -- I guess I shouldn't say old21 enough. If they were married to -- or placed with22 a guy or whatever. I don't know if you want to23 call it marriage either. I don't see it as24 marriage. With a guy or whatever then you're --25 basically you're supposed to do whatever he26 wanted. Have children, that was one of their27 things that they were taught from a small child28 till the time they were, I don't know,29 biologically capable of having children that they30 would want to have children. So that was kind of31 a thing that they always wanted to do, even when32 they started to get to the ages of 15 and 16 that33 they felt that they wanted to have children and be34 married. And they were always -- they were always35 taught that they needed to look after the men and36 basically -- yeah, that's ...37 Q And what were you taught about marriage as you38 were growing up?39 A We were taught that it's something we wanted to do40 and we were always taught that was something we

41 would need to do if we wanted to get into the42 highest degree of heaven, that we would -- we43 would have to be ready. Basically you would have44 to be ready to marry whoever they decided for you.45 And also you couldn't get to the highest degree in46 heaven without having more than one wife. That47 was also taught, taught to us as small children.


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1 From basically the time you're born that's all you2 see and hear daily.3 Q And was marriage presented to you as you were4 growing up as something that involved choice on5 your part?6 A No. Growing up it was something -- because that's7 what -- I guess that's what you always saw. You8 were very, very well sheltered throughout your9 life and you -- well, being taught at home at10 school, at church, you were told that's what you11 wanted to do, and that's what you felt like if you12 were involved in the church that that's -- that's13 what you wanted to do. You felt that you -- I

14 don't know that you needed felt you needed to, but15 you felt you wanted to. Like, all the things they16 do they feel like that's what they want to do, and17 that's what we were told that we were doing it18 because that's what we wanted to. That's one19 thing. They always told us we were living this20 way because we want to.21 Q Was there room within this to say that you wanted22 to live a different way?23 A I recall it was said we have -- there's basically24 we have two choices. The first choice they would25 give us -- the first choice they would teach us,26 that if we live this way we can have eternal life27 and whatever and go to the highest degree of28 heaven. And if we don't live this way we're going29 to be damned and go to hell for forever. And I30 don't know, as a small child I don't feel that31 second choice is a choice at all.32 Q And in terms of the marriage itself, how marriages33 were arranged, you talked about assignment. Can34 you just explain to us how that worked.35 A When -- I guess when the guys or even the older36 guys, whenever they were deemed or -- I don't know37 the way I look at it now, gave -- gave enough38 money -- seemed like if they were giving more39 money to the church that always seemed to help for40 the older guys to get another wife. But for the

41 younger guys I guess it was just sort of an42 expectation and something that you were also43 taught that you wanted to do when you were -- and44 when you're younger you saw the between -- when45 you reach the years -- the age of 18 to 20 that46 was something that you wanted to do. But you had47 to be in a position where you could accept anyone


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1 that they assigned you because you did not -- you2 did not know who they were going to place you with3 and you had no choice in the matter whatsoever.4 If you -- and I saw times where guys who were5 obviously in the same situation I was in were6 presented with -- I don't know really presented,7 but given -- I guess told that they were going to8 marry this person or it was brought before them9 that they might marry this person, that they -- if10 they rejected basically they were not allowed --11 they would be kicked out. They would be told that12 because they're not following the -- well, because13 they're not wholeheartedly involved in the church

14 and doing exactly what they're told then they15 would no longer be welcome. And I don't know,16 from what I seen in my personal experience it's17 probably about the time they're ready to go18 anyways. They're pretty much done with it19 anyways. But they're basically told, yeah, you20 gotta go.21 Q And you've talked about men being told between --22 some time typically between the ages of 18, 2023 that they were to marry an assigned person. Who24 is it that made that decision as to who you were25 to marry?26 A We were always taught growing up from, like, small27 children that it was the prophet, ultimately God's28 decision, that the person we were going to be with29 was his choice and that we should go along with it30 and be able to go along with it.31 But looking back now I see that it was32 probably more -- like more I would say to do with33 Winston had a lot to do with who married who. I34 mean, I don't -- I don't really know how -- how35 could one prophet even -- I don't know how he36 couldn't even -- I guess it's my own thoughts.37 How could he know all the people like in Canada38 and how did he really even know their ages and all39 this and that, and so I'm -- I feel it was more40 Winston had the influence on who married who, but

41 we were always told it was the prophet's choice.42 Q And what were you taught as you were growing up,43 Mr. Oler, about people who were not members of44 your community?45 A We were always -- we were always told and warned46 to stay away from them. We were always told that47 they would prosecute us for the way -- the way we


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1 lived. Another thing we were always -- well, I2 guess it's not -- I guess we were told about that3 basically we were the only people on the face of4 the earth that in the end were going to be lifted5 up when these great destructions came, and all the6 rest of the people on the earth were going to be7 killed, swept off the earth. Yeah, we were8 basically told to stay away, not associate with9 people that weren't from the church.10 Q Now, we've talked about Rulon Jeffs a little bit,11 Mr. Oler, and you've indicated that he lived down12 in the United States. And in your affidavit at13 paragraph 5 you indicate that you were aware of

14 other FLDS communities in Hildale, Utah and15 Colorado City, Arizona. Do you remember that bit16 of evidence?17 A Yes.18 Q Did you understand these to be communities that19 followed similar religious beliefs as Bountiful?20 A Yes.21 Q And you've given some evidence in your affidavit22 about travel between the communities?23 A Yeah.24 Q And I'm wondering if you can just give the Court a25 bit of an explanation of what sort of interaction26 occurred when people went back and forth, and for27 what sort of reasons.28 A The main -- the one that comes to mind the most29 times where the biggest group of people would go30 down to the States was for what they called the31 April conference where there was a big -- just a32 big meeting, I guess. Not really anything33 different than the other ones but it was just34 where they would try to get most of the people. A35 lot of the people from Canada would go down to36 those. There was also a lot of families, girls37 from Canada getting married to -- or getting --38 going to the States the guys down there and vice39 versa. Girls from the States being placed with40 guys in Canada. And there was lots of travel for

41 people going down to visit family members that42 were down or the other way around.43 And also, I don't know if I mentioned, there44 was a fair amount of people coming up to work in45 Canada. They worked with -- some of them came up46 to work with us. And as I have said too, a few47 times some people went down there just to work


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1 with different people, as I did for a few months.2 And a lot of those, when the people came to Canada3 to work, some of those were kind of like a reform4 mission. I don't know if I really talked about5 that. But that was a lot -- that was a lot -- or6 not a lot but some of the reason that they came to7 work. It was majority of the guys I guess that8 would have come to work. You know no girls or9 whatever. Yeah, that was some of the travels back10 and forth.11 Q And so the reform measure that you just talked12 about, that was boys down in the States who would13 be sent up to Canada because they were being

14 rebellious or acting up?15 A Yes. Yes. They would come and work with and they16 would usually be placed with people who were --17 they would work with people who they thought were18 a strong person to guide them and basically watch19 over them constantly and make sure they're doing20 the so-called right thing.21 Q And so the marriages that you describe, Mr. Oler,22 that would follow the pattern that you've already23 explained, with the prophet deciding two people24 were to be married, and one of them was in the25 United States and one of them was in Canada?26 A Yes.27 Q And was that quite common in your experience?28 A Yes. It was -- for girls from the States coming29 to Canada was very common. And well, and there30 was also, because I have several sisters who also31 went to the other way, down to the States.32 Q Now, you've described in your affidavit and you33 just mentioned it, that you've spent an extended34 period of time in Colorado City, some three35 months?36 A Yes.37 Q Can you give us an explanation of what you did for38 those three months while you were down in Colorado39 City.40 A As I mentioned here I actually -- it was sort of

41 time where I was I guess basically on the fence,42 trying to figure out which way I wanted to go, and43 I did it sort of as a self test. I went down,44 because I knew the people that I would be working45 with were these -- some of the devout followers46 who were always on their -- following their47 straight and narrow tunnel. And I just wanted to


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1 see if that was something that I could do, so I2 went down and worked with them. I was down there3 for approximately three months and through that4 time I -- well, I worked with them. I attended5 all the meetings, the Sunday meetings, the --6 well, the Saturday meetings. And actually they7 have -- and I never mentioned it before, but8 coming back now, they actually even had a Monday9 morning meeting down there.10 And I went -- basically I stayed with --11 well, it was one of my brother-in-laws who had12 married with one of my sisters. I stayed with him13 and basically did everything with him and kind of

14 stayed on their straight and narrow path, and it15 just didn't -- I just didn't really care for it I16 guess. There wasn't really control, because I17 didn't go down there and try and fight it, I just18 went to try and go and see if that was something19 that I wanted to do and I felt I didn't want to.20 So yeah, I called Jim and told him that I21 wanted to come home and he mentioned that I should22 talk to Warren and see if I should maybe stay down23 for a little bit longer. And when he said that,24 boy, he said maybe I should stay down, there was25 nothing more I could think about than getting back26 home. I just -- that -- I just felt I was27 going -- I was going to be stranded down there.28 But I did, I ended up actually talking to Warren29 himself, and I kind of pushed the point I was30 needed back up in Sundre to -- they were31 shorthanded on the logging crew because I was just32 trying to convince him I need to go. Because I33 knew that if he said I needed to stay then I34 wouldn't have had the support -- I wouldn't have35 been able to -- I guess I could have did the same36 thing I did, is I called my one brother and he37 came and got me. But I knew Jimmy wouldn't have38 approved to let me come home if Warren would have39 said no. That would have been the end. Whatever40 the prophet would have said I would have had to --

41 I would have had to do.42 Yeah. But anyways, I came home and shortly43 after that I left the church.44 Q So in the story you've just told when you refer to45 Jimmy that's your brother Jim Oler?46 A Yeah, Jim.47 Q And I should have asked you at the beginning of


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1 that question if you recall about how old you were2 when you went down for that three-month trip to3 Colorado City?4 A I would have been maybe late 19, early 20s.5 Around that age.6 Q And you used the phrase that you were on the7 fence. And is that on the fence about the8 religion?9 A Yeah. On the fence about the religion. Not10 really -- not fully believing it anymore. Having11 gotten out a little bit and seen the real world12 and the real people in the world and that they're13 not -- they're not bad people.

14 Q All right. So I'll come back to your decision to15 leave the community, Mr. Oler, but I first want to16 go back and talk a little bit more about your life17 growing up in Canyon.18 Now, you indicated that your family, at least19 your mom, Memory and your dad Dalmon and your full20 siblings grew up in the big house in canyon?21 A Yes.22 Q Do you remember spending one-on-one time with your23 mom as you were growing up?24 A I do not remember spending any extended period of25 time with my mom. Especially on one-on-one.26 There was always so many children around that27 there was no one-on-one attention.28 Q Was that true for all of the kids in the house?29 A From what I saw it was. It was basically the30 same. We were -- from -- for the most part, like31 we were taken care of and looked over, watched32 mainly by our older brothers and sisters. In my33 situation especially, because my mother worked.34 She was one of the school teachers and she was --35 she always -- she was always doing that.36 Q What about your dad Dalmon, do you remember37 spending one-on-one time with him?38 A Not when I was young. I do and I stated in here39 we spend a little more time with him between the40 ages of 9 and 12 and 13 working with him. He

41 would take us -- all of boys around my age, we42 would help him with the work around the farms and43 he did mechanic work for different farmers in the44 Creston valley, and we would go with him on those45 work things.46 Q So that would be you and your dad and the group of47 boys around your age?


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1 A Yeah. And the group of boys, yeah.2 Q Did you celebrate birthdays as you were growing3 up?4 A I only remember a few and as I told you we did --5 there was I remember maybe a year to -- would have6 been in my -- maybe my early -- I guess it would7 have been my early teens because I think it would8 have been over with by then, because you9 usually -- yeah, once you start getting older they10 never made light of basically any day besides11 Sunday, of course.12 Yeah, we -- I do recall though they did have13 on a couple of occasions we had what we call the

14 birthday breakfast and, yeah, I remember -- I do15 remember that a couple of times and I do remember16 the one time -- one time actually getting a cake.17 I do remember getting a birthday cake but I don't18 remember that happening every year. I do recall19 just a couple of times is all, the birthday20 breakfast and maybe a birthday cake and then I21 don't remember like every year or them ever making22 a big deal or lots of presents or anything I23 guess.24 Same with anything like Christmas and that,25 you're not supposed to have any -- I guess maybe26 they can conceive that as worldly tradition,27 birthdays. I don't know. That's what I feel now.28 But ...29 Q And when you were growing up in the big house in30 Canyon when there were other wives living in the31 house do you have any recollection as to how the32 wives got along with each other?33 A I do. In my situation, I don't know if everyone34 recalls the same, but I know it wasn't as happy35 and as holy or whatever they want to say as they36 always say and how all the ladies always say it37 is. I do remember being a small child and38 seeing -- I don't know if they didn't think I was39 old enough to listen or pay attention to what was40 going on, but I do recall my mother and the other

41 ladies complaining of what this lady is doing and42 then they would go to the other one, tell her, oh,43 she said this about you, this and that. There was44 definitely -- and there was no -- they didn't45 treat you equal like their own child.46 Q So you felt you were treated differently by the47 other moms than they treated their own children?


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1 A Yes.2 Q Mr. Oler, I want to turn to your education that3 you received while you were growing up in4 Bountiful, and you've talked about that in your5 affidavit. You went to the Bountiful school in6 elementary school; is that right?7 A Yes.8 Q And you've indicated that you went to school9 starting in kindergarten and through to Grade 9?10 A Yes.11 Q And that after Grade 9 you left?12 A Yes.13 Q Was it only members of the religious community

14 that attended this school?15 A Yes.16 Q At paragraph 8 of your affidavit, Mr. Oler,17 there's just a line I wanted to ask you about.18 You see there in the second sentence of19 paragraph 8 you say "I don't remember getting any20 practical education at Bountiful," and I just21 wonder if you could explain that comment a little22 bit more.23 A Going through school in Bountiful it was never24 brought to our attention that -- I guess maybe25 some of the children, but for me I don't recall26 ever getting told that I was going to need this27 later in life. I don't ever recall being told28 that I was going to need a Grade 12 education to29 go to a college. I don't ever recall being told30 that college was an opportunity. I didn't even31 really -- I don't recall even knowing what a32 college was through my younger days. There33 wasn't -- we had no -- we had no career planning34 whatsoever. The boys -- for the most part for the35 boys the mentality was what do we need school for,36 all's we're going to be doing is making fence37 posts. And that was -- that was usually what the38 boys -- and that's what I did when I dropped out39 of school, went and made fence posts.40 Q Did you get religious instruction when you were in

41 school?42 A Ah, yes. There was usually like I say one to two43 hours per day. Every morning they had assembly44 and that was the main religion class and then45 usually that was one of the other classes we had46 in our -- throughout the day was another religion47 class. We had -- we had, like, reading


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1 assignments for the religious books.2 Q Did the boys and girls go to school together in3 the same class when you were going -- when you4 were attending?5 A Yes. We went -- we were all in the same6 classroom, but when the boys -- I guess when they7 decided the boys were getting to the age of where8 they start looking at girls a different way or9 whatever, when you start -- when your body starts10 feeling different things then they would separate11 the boys and the girls on different sides of the12 classroom and they would -- and we were not -- we13 were told not -- weren't supposed to associate

14 with them. Not supposed to talk -- not supposed15 to talk to them. You're never supposed to be16 alone in a room with a girl by yourself. And17 another thing like I have said here they never --18 they made it awkward for a brother and a sister to19 be alone together. They made -- they never --20 there was never talked about or taught children21 that someone you're related to should -- morally22 you shouldn't marry that person.23 Q So the rules about the separation of boys and24 girls, that applied even if you were related?25 A Yes. Brothers and sisters, yeah. I don't know.26 You can't get more related than that, but it went27 as far as brothers and sisters weren't allowed --28 you weren't allowed to be even in the same room.29 Q And you mention in your affidavit that one thing30 you were taught is to treat girls like poison31 snakes, I think is the line you used.32 A Yeah. That's one thing they always said. I guess33 their hypothetical or whatever reasoning was with34 respect stay clear, stay away. Yeah. It was35 always a joke that maybe you might want to thump a36 dangerous snake on the head, but yeah, that was37 what the guys would joke about a little bit.38 Yeah, that was what they -- that's what they would39 say, treat girls like a dangerous snake.40 Q Is that what they would say in school or in

41 church?42 A It would be in church and at school. Yeah, it was43 basically that would have been more enforced at44 school and a little bit at home, probably more so45 in some families. In ours it was -- I guess I46 shouldn't say it was fairly casual. It was fairly47 strict that boys and girls weren't allowed to go


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1 after grade so when they finished that they would2 get placed with a guy because they would be around3 the age of 16, 16 going on 17. There was even4 occasions where girls would be pulled out of5 school and get married and not come back when they6 were even younger.7 Q Now, I wanted to talk to you a bit, Mr. Oler,8 about your experience working after you left9 school after you finished Grade 9. And you've10 dealt with that in -- or it's dealt with in11 paragraphs 10 through 12 of your affidavit. So12 you've indicated that you went to work firstly for13 a company by the name of JR Blackmore and Sons; is

14 that right?15 A Yes.16 Q And is that a company that was run by Winston17 Blackmore?18 A Yes.19 Q And can you tell us what sort of operation JR20 Blackmore and Sons was when you first went to work21 there.22 A When I first went to work -- well, it would have23 been when I was 13 when I first -- the first24 summer I worked, and at that time they were mainly25 a post and pole company and they were just getting26 started into the logging a little bit.27 Q So they made posts and poles?28 A Yeah, they made cut, peeled, and point and domed,29 whatever. Posts and poles. That was the main30 thing they did. And, oh, yeah, and also later31 they did -- they actually maybe around the same32 time they also had farming cows and the hay and33 that in Creston. And as I have talked about34 before they did -- I didn't state in here, they35 did try doing a couple different things but they36 didn't seem to work. I'm not exactly sure why37 they did -- they bought a grain elevator in38 Creston, and I don't know if they did any --39 producing any grain, but they bought that and that40 never seemed to work out. I don't know if they

41 ever even opened it up.42 They did buy a mattress factory from -- I'm43 not sure where it came from, but they moved it to44 Creston and they ran that for awhile. I don't45 know what happened there. Actually -- yeah, and46 they had a grocery store for a little while and47 actually I never -- I don't think I brought this


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1 point up before, but from what I see now the2 reason that maybe some of these other businesses3 didn't work out is because of the people from the4 community coming and taking advantage of that5 business and not paying for it, so it could not6 continue working. Take the products and not give7 anything into the company, and so it ended up they8 have to quit doing it or they couldn't buy any9 more supplies. That's what I saw in the grocery10 store, because everyone would go and run up a tab,11 the people from the church, and they were all12 allowed to do that. And they never -- they -- a13 lot of them wouldn't pay, yeah. Those were --

14 those were some of the things that they were15 doing.16 But when I -- when I first started working17 for them I went out on the crews and helped -- or18 made the fence posts for the first -- for the19 first two summers, and then when I quit school and20 went to work full-time that's what I started out21 doing was the fence posts and then eventually I22 went to work in the shop for a little while in23 Kitchener near Creston, the Blackmore mechanics24 shop. And I worked there for a little while and25 then -- I worked there and actually when I was26 working there I was actually working my brother27 Jim, Jim Oler was -- he was sort of the -- I guess28 the lead or head mechanic or whatever you want to29 call it, for basically the company JR Blackmore30 and Sons.31 I worked there with him for awhile. I didn't32 really mind the work that much but I didn't care33 to work under his direct supervision all the time.34 And also the other thing I didn't really care for35 it was I was there with older guys. I was only --36 I would have only been between 15 and 17 and I37 felt I wanted to go out and work with the38 younger -- the boys my age. And so from working39 at the shop there I asked if I could go back out40 and make the fence posts. I don't know, that's

41 still what I felt I wanted to do. I guess that's42 what all the guys were doing. And so I even --43 well, I ended up doing it. I was kind of a little44 bit rebellious when I did. I asked Jimmy if I45 could go out and work and he said I was needed in46 the shop, but I kind of wanted to go out and work.47 And this -- this -- I don't know if I even


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1 touched on the other story of -- the little bit of2 hockey story I had. But this all came about the3 same time. When I was refused the -- I requested4 to go and play on the local team in Creston and I5 was denied and so I -- another time I was staying6 at the big -- like the big house in Canyon all the7 time and I wanted -- I don't know, I felt I wanted8 to get out and go stay with the guys like at the9 crew houses and this, and so after being denied

10 the chance to go and play minor hockey then I11 didn't want to stay around home anymore and that's12 when I requested to Jim that I could go and work13 with the boys out making fence posts. And he said14 he would think about it and talk to me in a couple15 of weeks, and instead I didn't even go back and16 talk to him. I just went -- went and started17 making fence posts. He called me up and asked me18 what I was doing. I said, well, you said maybe I19 could go in a couple of weeks. He said, I would20 think about it.21 But I stayed and then it was only a couple22 weeks after that that they got me to go to Sundre23 and operate the equipment. They said -- he said24 that my mechanical abilities was -- which was made25 a little bit of sense, was too good to be wasted26 making fence posts and that I should be on the27 machinery where I can work it and fix it and get I28 guess basically the best productivity out of that29 machine, but...30 Then I worked in Sundre for altogether around31 five, six years. Three, four of those years were32 for Blackmores and then they started -- then Olers33 started their kind of split off from Blackmores34 and started -- it was around the time when35 Blackmores were having a little bit of financial36 struggles and so they took the machines. They

37 started up a new company and took the machines out38 of Blackmore's name and put it into Oler Brothers39 and then we basically just took over the -- we40 didn't -- Ken was the boss or whatever. He took41 over the Sundre operations and we just continued42 working there.43 Q I'm going to ask you a few points of clarification44 about the work history you've just given us,45 Mr. Oler.46 A Okay.


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47 Q So you indicated that you started working summers


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1 for JR Blackmore and Sons when you were 13?2 A Yes.3 Q Did I get that right? And was that full-time4 during the summers?5 A I was full-time during the summer, yes.6 Q And how much did you get paid?7 A We were paid -- all the boys -- there was kind8 of -- the wage or the money was decided on your9 age. I think it went, I don't know, 14, 16, 18 or10 whatever. But from those four -- the first two11 summers I think it was -- I think we got12 approximately $20 every two weeks we were paid.13 Q For full-time work?

14 A For the full-time work. Yeah, we were working at15 that time 85 -- we worked 85 hours every two16 weeks.17 Q And then when you started working full-time you18 were about 15 years old?19 A Yes, I was 15 years old and for that summer before20 I didn't go back to school then I was -- for that21 summer we were -- I was given $60 cash every two22 weeks, and then -- because I didn't go back to23 school then I was raised to $100 every two weeks.24 And that $100 went on till I was over the age of25 18.26 Q At paragraph 11 of your affidavit, Mr. Oler, I'm27 looking at the very last sentence at the bottom of28 page 3. You've made the point that while you were29 working for Blackmore and Sons you were also30 issued cheques and asked to sign them but you31 didn't receive cash.32 A Yes.33 Q Do you see that point?34 A Yes.35 Q Do you know where that cash went to?36 A I think it went -- I'm -- I guess I can't say.37 Q It didn't go to you?38 A I don't know where it went. It didn't go to me.39 I think it might have went back into the company40 or whatever. Maybe. I don't know what Winston

41 would have done. I would have had -- I think he42 would have had control. He definitely would have43 had control of where that money would have went.44 But yeah, we had to, and sometimes if they had --45 because if you weren't around, because if I were46 working in Sundre for a week or a month and there47 would be two or three of them then they would hold


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1 your money -- your monies until you came and2 signed those cheques and then they would give you3 your $100.4 Q And when you talk about Sundre, that's a town in5 Alberta?6 A Yes.7 Q Is that right? And initially JR Blackmore and8 Sons and then Oler brothers had an operation9 there?10 A Yeah. Initially JR Blackmore and Sons were up11 there and when they first started they were making12 just fence posts for the sawmill, one of the13 sawmills out there. And then eventually they

14 started logging. I worked -- I worked off and on15 in the fence post and repairing of the machinery16 there. While you were working at the shop I would17 be sent to Sundre to work on -- help fix -- repair18 machines in the mill before they started logging.19 And then when they started logging they ended up20 getting out of the fence post for Sunpine and --21 for the sawmill and just went into logging for22 them.23 Q So when you were working in Sundre where did you24 stay when you were there? Where did you sleep?25 A They had several different crew houses. The26 majority of them were all in sort of one location27 and that's where the guys -- that's where the guys28 would stay.29 Q And were "the guys" guys from Bountiful?30 A Yeah. All guys the -- all the guys were from31 Bountiful that were up working in Sundre.32 Q Mr. Oler, I wanted to talk to you about a slightly33 different topic and that's also covered in your34 affidavit, and that's tithing.35 A Yeah.36 Q Can you explain to us what how that worked.37 A The tithing.38 Q That was, I gather, an amount that you had to pay39 to the church?40 A Yeah, yeah, I know. Give me a minute. Yeah. It

41 was I guess like I think, I don't know,42 volunteered, just do it, but I guess that's one of43 the things they teach that we were taught every44 day growing up as well, that we were to give45 10 percent of everything -- basically everything46 we owned to the church. Through my experience it47 was only money that was ever given. Money and


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1 time, which is money. That was -- there was the2 10 percent and then there was also different times3 where they would have what they called -- what4 they were calling the -- well, it was Winston at5 the time was calling -- he called it a famine --6 was around the tax time, time of property taxes7 were due, and they called it a famine where8 everyone was told for three months we were9 supposed to give back half of everything -- all10 the money we were given back to help pay the11 taxes. And through that time we were told not12 to -- everyone -- no one was allowed to go out and13 eat. Eat out. We were supposed to eat stuff that

14 was stored at home. And as I've mentioned in15 here, later on when -- after the split when Warren16 Jeffs came to be a leader of half the people, and17 I was involved in that half, it was called -- for18 the time I was there almost every other month19 every person over the age of 18, every male was to20 give a $1,000 to help.21 A lot of the times to help -- I don't know if22 I mentioned it, but a lot of times they did say to23 help pay for court cases they were having, and24 usually it was in the States. Or to help the25 people, whatever. I don't know if it actually26 went to help the people, but that's what we were27 told, it was needed. And we were required to pay28 if -- they said if you can, but the same as the29 tithing if -- that was kind of if you could or do30 what you can, but if you didn't pay you were31 looked at -- you were looked at differently if you32 didn't pay. You were kind of -- they might ask33 you if you didn't pay for a couple of times what's34 going on. They would question why you haven't35 been paying or they did keep records of who paid36 and this and that, and I think -- I don't know,37 but as far as I see, people who were on top of all38 that being sure that they gave their monies were39 more -- probably the people that got more wives or40 married sooner.

41 Q And so with those amounts that you were requested42 or required to pay, did that leave you with very43 much in terms of personal resources?44 A It didn't -- we never had much for personal45 resources but personally I never -- the famine46 monies I never really gave very much. I didn't47 give half mine back. When we were required to pay


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1 the 1,000 that was a little tough, and as I have2 stated my mother, just to keep me looking like I3 was on the straight and narrow, she would help --4 she would help pay some of that money too. But5 yes, it definitely was -- you didn't go -- you6 didn't go out very much. You didn't -- you7 weren't able to buy very many things. We didn't8 have any of the toys. I don't know that -- I see9 kids nowadays they have the control of their own10 money and they can live a little bit through their11 teenage years and we never had that opportunity.12 We never had the money or the time to go out and13 do a few different little things.

14 MS. HORSMAN: My Lord, I'm moving on to a new subject15 area now.16 THE COURT: Okay.17 MS. HORSMAN: It's a great time for a break.18 THE CLERK: Order in court. Court adjourned for the19 morning break.2021 (MORNING RECESS)2223 THE CLERK: Order in court.24 THE COURT: Ms. Horsman.25 MS. HORSMAN: Thank you.2627 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MS. HORSMAN: (Continued)28 Q Mr. Oler, I would like to move now to ask you some29 questions about an event that you've been30 referring to as "the split."31 A Okay.32 Q Now, we have had evidence in this proceeding that33 the split occurred in the community of Bountiful34 after Warren Jeffs became the prophet; is that35 right?36 A Yes.37 Q And were you still part of the community when that38 occurred?39 A Yes.40 Q And were you still living in Canyon at the time,

41 when you weren't in Sundre?42 A Yes.43 Q And your brother Jim still lived there?44 A Yes.45 Q And your mom Memory?46 A Yes.47 Q Can you give us a bit of an explanation about what


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1 happened around the time of the split and what2 live was like in Bountiful after.3 A I'm not -- I don't really know. I guess4 apparently Warren said Winston did something5 wrong, was his reason for demoting him from the6 bishop. And to that time -- and there was a7 little bit of time there everyone still kind of8 stuck together and even when Jim started -- when9 Jim was the - originally I think they just called10 him the lead elder or whatever for Canada. And11 there was even one time where -- because Jim12 started holding, like being the main speaker at13 the meetings and there was a time where everyone

14 still was going to the same -- still going to15 church, but that was -- that was -- it was not16 long after Winston was demoted or whichever that17 he started -- kind of started having his own18 meetings. And as far as I know he's proclaimed19 himself -- his followers look at him as a prophet.20 But around the time of the split then there21 was -- well, after the split I guess I should say22 there were family members on both sides not23 talking to each other, not allowed to talk to each24 other. You weren't supposed to do anything with25 them. This is one of the -- one of the many26 things that led me -- or that I started to see27 that I couldn't see how anything they claim to be28 God-like or Christ-like could be -- what they were29 doing did not seem to me one bit of what they were30 teaching, to love your neighbour as yourself or31 even your brother as yourself. Not allowing them32 to see each other, talk about each other. And on33 the other hand I, being on the Warren's side for a34 little while, there was always talk about what35 Winston's guys are doing. That seemed to be one36 of the main topics of conversation. What are they37 doing now. He's letting them have all this slack.38 They're starting to wear jeans. Starting to wear39 jeans. Some of the girls were cutting their hair.40 There was always something. Something they were

41 doing. Whatever they were doing it was always --42 it was always brought up.43 And then on the other hand when I finally44 left and then I -- for a little while there45 because I was -- I was welcomed by Winston's guys46 because they are still -- you can still kind of47 talk to them. They're -- they're not following


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1 conversation before we move on. By this point in2 time when Jim told you you might be eligible for a3 wife, the assignment of a wife if you did these4 things, did you want to get married at that point5 in time to someone in the church?6 A At that point in time I was thinking I -- I knew I7 wasn't -- I wouldn't be able to face the fact8 that -- well, I didn't think I would be able to9 accept just anyone they brought along. So that10 was one of the stepping stones in making my11 decision in leaving Bountiful.12 Q And so you did eventually make the decision to13 leave the community?

14 A Yeah, so shortly after that I did make the15 decision to leave.16 Q And that was when you were in your early 20s; is17 that right?18 A Yeah.19 Q I'm wondering if you can talk to us, Mr. Oler,20 about some of the difficulties that you faced in21 making the decision to leave Bountiful.22 A Growing up -- I guess not really growing up there,23 because when you're involved and that's all you24 see and do you don't really see it as an issue25 because you never -- you never see yourself26 leaving when you're younger, through your27 childhood and preteen years. But when you get28 older and you see the -- when I got older and I29 saw some of the other boys who left and saw how30 they had to leave everything behind I knew that31 was one of the -- one of the things that I was32 going to have to do. I knew I was -- going to33 have to leave all my family behind, the ones --34 the ones that were still involved in the church.35 Those were -- that was one of the difficulties36 that way.37 One of the other -- the probably one of the38 other hardest things in getting the courage to39 actually leave is when you go -- when you're in40 that sort of a lifestyle and that's all you see

41 and that's all you know and they don't -- they42 don't ever tell you or teach you that maybe one43 day you want to have your own -- your own house,44 your own car, your own -- basically your own45 person. That -- that was one of the things I46 had -- that I've -- that I had to face shortly47 after leaving, trying to figure out where to go.


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1 Well, that was one of worries I had, not2 knowing where to go. When I finally did leave3 probably the number one factor was my -- well, I4 call her my grandma now. She told me -- we spent5 the night at her house the weekend, and she told6 me that -- because I was on the verge and I just7 didn't know -- I just -- I just didn't know8 where -- where in the world I would go. I just9 thought there was nowhere I could go if I left.10 If I left that place -- if I left -- basically the11 teachings because I guess along with the teachings12 is the people, if you leave that behind then13 basically there is no going back if you don't want

14 to take up the teachings. But grandma, she told15 me that no matter what I did there was -- I was16 always going to have a place to come back. And17 that's -- and that meant so much to me because I18 just didn't know where I would go if I left.19 Q And that was Lorna Blackmore?20 A That was -- yeah, Lorna. But anyways those were a21 few of the hardest things I had to face coming22 out, just the fact that you don't -- you felt that23 and you felt -- still believing that this was the24 one and only true church. You felt that you25 were -- you felt you were a goner. In a way there26 was -- there was a little bit of sort of -- I27 don't know, it felt almost like there was28 something lifted off your back. You finally made29 the decision. I guess you made, I don't know, a30 decision you were willing -- I don't know, to31 stand up or to whatever, but to -- basically I32 felt, I don't know, life. You couldn't live your33 life in there and I felt -- I thought I would be34 going to hell and I was -- I guess basically ready35 to accept that because I couldn't stand to be36 there anymore.37 Q And your grandma Lorna, Mr. Oler, she was someone38 who had lived in the community and had left as39 well; is that right?40 A Yes.

41 Q Was it very common in your experience at the time42 you lived in Bountiful for people to leave the43 community?44 A Through my younger years growing up there it was45 not common at all for people to leave. By the46 time I had left it was -- it was after the --47 after the split, so it was -- would have been a


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1 lot easier for me in the way that I had -- I did2 have, there was already a few that had left before3 me and I had the -- well, sort of the support of4 them to do things with until I got a chance to get5 out a little more and meet people and do a few6 things.7 Q So there were more people leaving after the split8 then?9 A Yeah. There was -- well, you could say more10 people leaving the teachings from the followers of11 Winston's side. The guys that followed Winston's12 side. There was more -- there's been more and13 more giving up and doing their own -- starting to

14 live their own life that were involved in his.15 There hasn't -- there's only been a few to16 leave the Warren side since I did. I can only17 think of two or three that have left of my --18 well, one of my brothers that have left the Warren19 side. Since the split things like -- well, since20 Warren took over things -- when I was there seemed21 to start -- they started seemed to get more22 enclosed, especially now that we were basically23 under the direction of Warren. Before we were24 under the direction of Winston and he was -- he25 was a little bit more lenient through -- well,26 before the split and even more so after. And he's27 had -- well, that's from work and several28 different -- just the things that he's done29 he's -- there's been people that have lost a lot30 of respect for him. There's been several -- well,31 my sisters have left -- that originally went with32 his side that have left. Basically all the33 teaching's behind them. They can't see -- they're34 slowly -- they're slowly coming out and learning35 how to deal with the real world and the people in36 it every day.37 Q Now, in terms of where you're at in your life now,38 Mr. Oler, at paragraph 21 you describe how you39 have completed a course to get your certificate.40 Is that heavy duty mechanic; is that right?

41 A Yes.42 Q And you're also married and you have two young43 sons?44 A Yes.45 Q Has becoming a parent influenced your thinking46 about the way you were raised?47 A Becoming a parent.


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1 Q I mean in terms of your relationship with your2 children.3 A I'm just thinking here for a minute. Sorry.4 Q I have to stop interrupting you.5 A It has changed me so much in the way -- now that I6 see back the way the kids were and how they are7 now. The time -- the way the men that are raised8 it is the women's responsibility to take care of9 the children every day and the men go out and10 work. They don't spend any time with their11 families, even when they do have the time off.12 I can't see why -- personally I can't see why13 someone would have -- why they would have so many

14 children if they don't want to take care of them.15 Like, I don't know -- I don't know I can't think16 of nothing more important than spending the time17 off I do have with my children. It's the most18 important thing in the world to me and I -- and I19 see the need that just the two have, and I can't20 even imagine trying to spread what little time I21 do have and be able to give -- and to be able to22 give my wife a little break from her day just to23 watch the kids for a little while. That's24 something that they never would have had, the25 ladies, they never would have had a chance to get26 a job or work. They were basically having babies27 I guess as long as they physically can.28 But yeah, I just don't understand like why.29 I know I have one brother who goes out and works.30 He has three wives. I don't know how many31 children. And he goes out and works for months on32 end and never sees the kids. And I know -- and I33 witnessed with my own eyes one of my older34 brothers who worked all the time come home to see35 one of his little babies and he picked up the36 child and the child started to cry. He was37 afraid -- he was afraid of him. He didn't even38 know who he was. That's -- I don't know what I39 would do if I went home and I picked up my boy and40 he didn't know who I was. I couldn't handle that.

41 THE COURT: Would you like a break, sir?42 THE WITNESS: It's okay. It's okay.43 MS. HORSMAN:44 Q Mr. Oler, I want to ask you just a few questions45 about your family back in Bountiful. Your mom46 Memory is still there?47 A Yes.


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1 Q And does she still live in Canyon?2 A Yes.3 Q Do you have any contact with her now?4 A The only contact I have with her is on my -- if I5 make the initiative to call her. And even when I6 do I find myself not wanting to call her again7 from the way that I am treated. When I do see or8 talk to her I just don't understand the way --9 well, I do understand being involved in the10 religion the way they are and the way they do11 things, but I just don't -- I just wish there was12 something I could do so that my mother could see13 that I am a good person. I don't hurt anyone. I

14 don't break any laws. I don't -- I don't hurt my15 family. I help my family. I help people I can.16 She looks at me as though I'm lost. And she has17 said -- she has said before that I am -- she feels18 that I am basically -- that I would be just as19 well off as if I was dead. She has said that20 before.21 And one time, I never told these ladies this22 story, but one time she told me a story of she23 had -- one time had a stillborn child. I don't24 know -- I don't think that's part of the 15, but I25 hadn't heard of this until this story she told me26 and this was after I left. She told me this story27 of the stillborn child in a way that made me feel28 that she wished I was that child. That -- I said29 well, I just wish she didn't have to feel that way30 about me. How feeling like that can be God-like,31 I don't know.32 She hasn't -- she does have no interest. I33 thought she would be very proud of me going back34 to school. And if I talk to her most of the time35 she treats me as if I am a stranger if I call her36 on the phone. There's no, hey, how are you, how37 are the kids? What have you been up to?38 Q And that's because you've left the religion?39 A That's because I left and she just cannot -- she40 just thinks that it's the end of the world.

41 Q Mr. Oler, there's just a couple more questions I42 wanted to put to you but if you feel like you need43 a break I'm sure the court would oblige.44 A I should be okay. I don't know where we're going45 next.46 Q Well, you let us know if you want to take a break.47 I just want to ask you about one last portion


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1 of your affidavit and it's the paragraph where you2 make the point, and you state it quite frankly,3 that you're tired of talking and thinking about4 your childhood and teenage years in Bountiful.5 That's at paragraph 25. Do you remember that6 portion of your evidence?7 A I remember talking about it, yes. Here.8 Q I expect there's many places in the world you9 would rather be right now than in that chair, and10 I wondered if you just could explain to the court11 the reasons why you've agreed to be involved.12 A One of the main reasons -- there are several, but13 when I hear and have the experience of trying to

14 contact my family and the contact I do have with15 them the -- and others, and I hear their16 experiences, is just heartbreaking to me. And if17 there's any way -- if there's any way, I don't18 know. I feel and I know from the last -- my last19 years there the enclosed state of which they have20 gotten in the fact that they are not allowed21 access to television. Computer access is very22 limited, internet.23 I don't feel -- I don't know, maybe24 hopefully -- hopefully the fact that I am here and25 what I have talked about can maybe get to some of26 the ones on the inside so they can see. And it27 would be so nice to one day be able to go down to28 the house I grew up with and see my family and29 have them treat me like a son, a brother, a30 friend. Just -- I just do not understand why they31 should have to go through their lives like that.32 They just -- they're just -- why my mother should33 have to tell her child to go. Why they would be34 able to -- why they would -- I don't know. I -- I35 don't think they even know what they're doing.36 I'm sure somewhere at the top of all this37 there's a select few that are living a very good38 life off the benefits from what all -- all the39 people involved are doing. They won't -- they40 won't look at -- I don't know they don't look at

41 it -- they can't see the harm they're doing. I42 feel for the most part most of the people43 involved -- I know most of them involved,44 especially my family, are very, very good-hearted45 people they're from -- they're for the most part46 some of the best people you can meet on this47 earth. They're so kind hearted and everything.


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1 But they're just -- they just don't know what2 they're doing and what they're being and the harm3 they're having, and all for no reason. And they4 do it all in the name of God.5 And I just feel it is -- just not necessary6 at all to take -- to take a child, boys, young7 boys', young girls' ability and willing to think8 away from them. And I've been thinking because I9 always hear -- and I have heard well, I guess10 Winston is the first one that always says that11 it's charters of rights or whatever. Charter of12 rights and freedom to live, to teach the religion,13 but I never really knew what that was. I looked

14 it up a little bit there on the internet and I15 read through that second -- that second charter16 and that one -- the one thing they're trying to17 use on that right to protect themselves, the18 teachings of that one religion is taking away all19 the rest of the rights on that charter. And I20 just -- it's just -- I don't know if they -- I21 mean, we never as children knew of charters and22 rights and freedoms, but I just don't understand.23 Well, I guess I kind of understand now, but it's24 just -- it just doesn't feel right to me why. I25 know it's not for children to have to go through26 what I went through and all for no reason. Well,27 they're personal reasons but ...28 MS. HORSMAN: Thank you, Mr. Oler. Those are my29 questions in direct, My Lord.30 THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Wickett.31 MR. WICKETT: No questions, My Lord.32 THE COURT: Thank you.33 MR. MACINTOSH: My Lord, I have no questions. I think34 my role as amicus permits me to thank you,35 Mr. Oler, for coming forward and testifying with36 the enormous stress and difficulty it's obviously37 presented for understandable reasons, and I wish38 to respectfully thank him for doing so. And thank39 you, sir.40 The only hesitation in saying that, My Lord,

41 is obviously that I don't think it's right for me42 to start doing that routinely and I won't.43 But I thank you, sir44 THE COURT: Anybody else? And I share those remarks.45 Thank you, Mr. Oler for coming to court. You're46 excused, sir.47 THE WITNESS: You're welcome. Thank you.


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33Certification

1 MS. HORSMAN: I think that's it in terms of the2 evidence for today, My Lord.3 THE COURT: Okay. Tomorrow we have a full day?4 MS. HORSMAN: We do. We have witnesses scheduled for5 the morning and afternoon I believe.6 MS. GREATHEAD: Yes, My Lord.7 THE COURT: Thank you. We're adjourned.8 THE CLERK: Order in court. Court is adjourned until9 January 19th, 2011 at 10:00 a.m.1011 (PROCEEDINGS RECESSED AT 12:08 P.M.)1213 I, SPENCER J. CHAREST, OFFICIAL REPORTER

14 IN THE PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA, CANADA,15 DO HEREBY CERTIFY:1617 THAT THE PROCEEDINGS WERE TAKEN DOWN BY18 ME IN SHORTHAND AT THE TIME AND PLACE HEREIN19 SET FORTH AND THEREAFTER TRANSCRIBED, AND THE20 SAME IS A TRUE AND CORRECT AND COMPLETE21 TRANSCRIPT OF SAID PROCEEDINGS TO THE BEST OF22 MY SKILL AND ABILITY.2324 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I HAVE HEREUNTO25 SUBSCRIBED MY NAME THIS 7TH DAY OF FEBRUARY26 2011.27282930 ______________________31 SPENCER J. CHAREST32 OFFICIAL REPORTER3334353637383940

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1 -18- 11 polygamy reference case day23 - testimony & cross examination of ex flds member truman...

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