1 annual 2011 nfpa association technical meeting … · 1 the afternoon session of the nfpa...

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ANNUAL 2011

NFPA ASSOCIATION TECHNICAL MEETING

BOSTON CONVENTION AND EXHIBITION CENTER

415 SUMMER STREET

BOSTON, MASSACHUSETTS

WEDNESDAY, JUNE 15, 2011

AFTERNOON SESSION

12:30 p.m.

LEAVITT REPORTING, INC.


2

1 I N D E X PG

2 Report on Gaseous Fire Extinguishing Systems 3Motion: Pg:

3 2001-1 32001-2 30

4 2001-17 52Report on Structures, Construction and Materials 60

5 703-1 61Report of TCC Safety to Life 83

6 101-5 85101-2 88

7 101-3 89101-5 99

8 101-6 105101-7 109

9 101-8 123101-9 132

10 101-10 139101-11 159

11 101-12 166101-13 170

12 101-14 179101-15 187

13 101-19 202101-23 212

14 101-24 212Report of the TCC Building Code 216

15 5000-1 2175000-2 218

16 5000-3 2275000-4 230

17 5000-5 2565000-6 255

18 5000-7 257Report on Electrical Safety in the Workplace 259

19 70E-1 26170E-2 267

20 70E-3 280212223


3

1 The afternoon session of the NFPA Technical Meeting

2 was held at the Boston Convention Center on

3 Wednesday, June 15, 2011, commencing at 12:30 p.m.

4 MR. CLARY: Welcome back. You might have

5 noticed as the Chair I was able to suspend time for a

6 while.

7 The next report under consideration this

8 afternoon is that of the Technical Committee on

9 Gaseous Fire Extinguishing Systems.

10 Here to present the committee's report is

11 the committee chair Jeffrey Harrington of the

12 Harrington Group, Incorporated, Duluth, Georgia. The

13 committee report can be found in the white 20 CAM

14 fall business cycle ROP ROC.

15 The Certified Amending Motions are

16 contained in the Motions Committee report and behind

17 me on the screen. You will see the order of the

18 motions numbers presented. Mr. Harrington.

19 MR. HARRINGTON: Mr. Chair, ladies and

20 gentlemen, the report of the Technical Committee on

21 Gaseous Fire Extinguishing Systems is presented for

22 adoption and can be found in the Report on Proposals

23 and the Report on Comments to the 2010 fall revision


4

1 cycle.

2 The Technical Committee has published a

3 report consisting of a partial revision of NFPA 2001

4 Standard on Clean Agent Fire Extinguishing Systems.

5 The report was submitted to letter ballot

6 of the Technical Committee that consists of 29 voting

7 members.

8 The ballot results can be found on pages

9 2001-1 to 2001-33 of the Report on Proposals and

10 pages 2001-1 to 2001-12 of the Report on Comments.

11 The presiding officer will now proceed with the

12 Certified Amending Motions.

13 MR. CLARY: Thank you, Mr. Harrington.

14 Let's now proceed to discussion of the Certified

15 Amending Motion and the first one up will be 2001-1.

16 And microphone number 3.

17 MR. STILWELL: Hello. I'm Brad Stilwell,

18 of Fike Corporation and I would like to make a motion

19 to return Section 5.4.2.4 to the current edition.

20 MR. CLARY: And do we have a second?

21 FROM THE FLOOR: Second.

22 MR. CLARY: We have a second. Please

23 proceed.


5

1 MR. STILWELL: This issue has to deal

2 with the design concentration for Class A

3 combustibles that are usually extinguished with clean

4 agents.

5 And what this comment would do if the

6 NITMAM were not accepted is it would tie the minimum

7 design concentration for a Class A combustible, wood,

8 paper, and plastic, to a Class B flammable liquid

9 fire which I believe is a mistake.

10 To give you a little history around that,

11 when NFPA 2001 was originally published in 1994,

12 there was a link between Class A and Class B fires.

13 And if you looked in the standard there's

14 a table. And in that table there were six gasses in

15 that table, and then on the other side would be

16 companies and the Class B extinguishing concentration

17 they got for that gas.

18 Well, if you look in that standard there

19 were 24 values in that table. And of the 24 values,

20 there were only two values that were actually the

21 same as each other.

22 So there was a problem with people

23 agreeing on this Class B concentration, and the


6

1 reason that was such a big problem was of the people

2 that supplied clean agent systems, the most dominant

3 one was HFC-227ea. You had three manufacturers at

4 that time promoting systems.

5 Well, there was one manufacturer that had

6 a design concentration that was different than the

7 other two.

8 The problem with that is local

9 authorities, fire marshals, people that are reviewing

10 systems, would say, Why is this one different? Why

11 are they different?

12 So because of that, in the 1990's the

13 committee, with a great deal of effort and work, went

14 to separate the Class A and Class B concentration.

15 There was actually a test protocol

16 developed to determine what the right concentration

17 would be for the Class A fire.

18 And I'm happy to say at this time all

19 manufacturers of clean agent systems use the same

20 design concentration.

21 So I believe that the committee did the

22 right thing back in the late 90's by separating them

23 and having an independent test for those.


7

1 Now it's much more clear to a user of the

2 standard what design concentration they can use for

3 the Class A.

4 The other thing that overturned this

5 comment in supporting the NITMAM is the way the

6 comment is written is it really treats the two main

7 gasses used for clean agents differently.

8 If you have a liquified agent, then the

9 ratio of concentrations ends up being different than

10 inert gasses which really creates a different level

11 of safety that will be used for one gas versus the

12 other, which is not in my opinion the right thing to

13 do.

14 Lastly, I believe there really isn't any

15 technical justification for this change, because

16 there isn't any related fire incidence, there isn't

17 really anything hard and technical that you can grab

18 onto that would tell you that comment should be

19 accepted.

20 And lastly, to accept this motion would

21 be to keep it the way it is today which is what it

22 was for the past ten plus years. Thank you.

23 MR. CLARY: Thank you. Mr. Harrington.


8

1 MR. HARRINGTON: Okay. I think it would

2 be useful to the group for me to give a synopsis of

3 the journey that the committee took that led to the

4 committee action that we're now talking about.

5 As you can see on the screen, the NITMAM,

6 the CAM, essentially is asking that Proposal 2001-24

7 be returned and also Comment 2001-16 be returned.

8 So I'd like to give a quick review of the

9 action we took, the committee took, on Proposal

10 2001-24.

11 That proposal, which you can follow along

12 if you'd like, in the proposal ROP document, asked

13 that the safety factor that you use to raise the

14 minimum extinguishing concentration to a minimum

15 design concentration be increased from 1.2 to 1.3

16 for Class A surface fires.

17 A number of reasons we would get into

18 which I'm going to basically quickly touch on. One

19 reason was that the Class B hazard safety factor is

20 at 1.3.

21 The submitter saw no technical basis for

22 Class A having a different safety factor than the

23 Class B.


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1 Another reason for Halon 1301, the old

2 days, and CO2, historically the safety factor for

3 Class A hazards for those two materials was between

4 1.5 and 1.6.

5 The submitter saw no technical basis for

6 a new clean agent -- the new clean agents having a

7 safety factor so significantly less.

8 Some calculations were done by I.

9 Schlosser at BDS that were referred to by this

10 submitter.

11 It showed a drop in the failure

12 probability prediction could occur from 17.5 to 10

13 going from 1.2 to a 1.3 safety factor.

14 There's an international consensus view

15 through the ISO 14520 standard and the U.S. Technical

16 Advisory Group -- it's part of that -- that Class A

17 safety factor should be 1.3.

18 Also mention was made of the uncertainty

19 that's developed in the minimum extinguishing

20 concentration values for Class A for certain agents,

21 or a certain agent in particular, that recently,

22 relatively speaking, went back and retested and

23 reduced the minimum extinguishing concentration which


10

1 had an effect of reducing the inherent safety factor

2 even further.

3 This was all discussed by the committee

4 and evaluated and ultimately the proposal was

5 accepted by the committee 25 to 3, so it was a pretty

6 strong consensus. The committee is looking for an

7 increase in the safety factor from 1.2 to 1.3.

8 Looking at now this CAM that we're

9 talking about now also wishes to return the comment

10 2001-16.

11 Again, the committee reviewed the issue

12 of safety factor being 1.2 versus 1.3 for Class A

13 surface fires, and the committee developed ultimately

14 a comment that essentially was a compromise and made

15 a change to the proposal by way of compromise.

16 And it had two parts. One part is that

17 the Class A surface MDC, or minimum design

18 concentration, should be developed by 1.2 times the

19 MEC.

20 And there was a floor put on it by the

21 committee with a second statement that it should also

22 not be less than the MEC or minimum extinguishing

23 concentration for Heptane. That comment was accepted


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1 23 to 4 by a fairly large margin.

2 MR. CLARY: Okay. Thank you. Looks like

3 microphone number 5.

4 MR. GRODSKY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm

5 Larry Grodsky with Siemens Industry. I'm also the

6 president of the Fire Suppression Systems Association

7 and I'm representing the Fire Suppression Systems

8 Association and I am for the motion.

9 The ROC proposed to insert an additional

10 requirement that the minimum design concentration per

11 Class A service fire hazards shall not be less than

12 the minimum extinguishing concentration for liquid

13 fuel, normal heptane.

14 The fire suppression Systems Association

15 believes the addition of this new additional

16 requirement is unnecessary and unwarranted.

17 Number one, the present method of

18 determining Class A design concentrations follows the

19 old standard 2127 and 2166 and the FM Approval

20 Standard 5600 for clean agent systems.

21 The method involves testing Class A

22 materials to determine the Class A extinguishing

23 concentration.


12

1 It is reasonable that the design

2 concentrations for Class A fuels be based on

3 extinguishing Class A materials, not an

4 extinguishment of the class fuel.

5 And number two in the comments, tens of

6 thousands of clean agent systems have been installed

7 over the last 20 years.

8 In fact, a recently survey of the FSSA

9 installer members report that we've installed over

10 23,000 systems since 1993.

11 The survey reports 191 successful fire

12 extinguishments and zero failures due to failures of

13 extinguishment.

14 No reports of failures of those systems

15 to extinguish fires has been reported to the NFPA

16 2001 Technical Committee.

17 There's no doubt that the current

18 requirements in the NFPA 2001 standards are working.

19 Therefore we're asking the assembly to vote in favor

20 of the motion to retain the current requirements for

21 clean agent design concentrations for Class A surface

22 fire hazards. Thank you.

23 MR. CLARY: Thank you. Microphone number


13

1 1.

2 MR. RIVERS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My

3 name is Paul Rivers. I'm with 3M Company and I'm a

4 principal in the NFPA 2001 Committee.

5 I'm not speaking on behalf of the

6 committee. I am a manufacturer of a clean agent in

7 the standards.

8 I rise in support of the NITMAM for the

9 following three reasons, and let me preface it by

10 saying this has nothing to do with Class C energized

11 fire scenarios. This is strictly on Class A. The

12 Class C is subject to the next NITMAM.

13 First, the substantiation for this

14 comment lacks supporting data to indicate meaningful

15 real world failures to extinguish Class A fires with

16 a 1.2 safety factor applied.

17 Rather, evidence has been provided to the

18 2001 committee of numerous documents of successful

19 extinguishments in thousands of clean agent

20 installations to date.

21 Second, there's a precedence against a

22 change to limit the Class A design concentration

23 value to be no less than another fuel's minimum


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1 extinguishing concentration.

2 The addition of this requirement

3 recouples the Class A fire design concentration to a

4 Class B heptane cup burner extinguishing

5 concentration, exactly something the committee

6 correctly decoupled back in the 90's.

7 Lastly, this action creates a nominal 10

8 percent higher safety margin for halocarbon agents

9 than that of inert gas agents.

10 There is no reasonable rationale for

11 this, no credible supporting data that has been

12 provided, and is wrong.

13 I ask the membership to support this

14 NITMAM proposal and maintain 5424 language as it is

15 in the present edition. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


17 2. And I also -- to the individual at microphone

18 number 2 and my congratulations for winning the Lamb

19 Award this year.

20 MR. DiNENNO: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

21 Phil DiNenno with Hughes Associates speaking in

22 opposition to the motion. My colleagues who've

23 spoken who are also members of the Technical


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1 Committee, I think I'm going to revisit the history a

2 little bit.

3 I'm a member of the Technical Committee

4 and I was the chair of the Technical Committee when

5 these agents were introduced and these various test

6 methods were developed.

7 The reason the committee is concerned

8 about the issue is -- There are several reasons for

9 it but the primary one is that the extinguishing

10 concentrations and, therefore, the design

11 concentrations, have been dropping over time.

12 That probably doesn't have much to do

13 with the increased distinguishing capability of the

14 gasses.

15 So we're looking for, you know, solutions

16 to that problem and that was the genesis of the

17 rationale for setting a floor on the design

18 concentration to a test method for which there is

19 widespread agreement and virtually no spread in the

20 data.

21 The second reason is that when the two

22 first versions of 2001 were passed, we ignore the

23 inherently large safety factors that we had with


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1 Halon and CO2 which were in the range of 1.6 to 2

2 times this heptane cup burner concentration.

3 And we did that so as to not

4 unnecessarily penalize the introduction of low ozone

5 or no ozone, zero ozone, depleting gasses. That was

6 the rationale of the committee.

7 So we started with concentrations that

8 had virtually no margin. In fact, the early Class A

9 design concentrations were at approximately a safety

10 factor of -- of 1 compared to the historical data

11 with the CO2 and Halon. Now they've migrated down to

12 somewhere between .7 and .8.

13 Another observation of the committee was

14 that the test method used, the Class A test method,

15 which I had a lot to do with developing, was also

16 accepted -- a version of it was accepted by the

17 International Standards Organization.

18 And today if you look at the difference

19 between the results of the test method as practiced

20 in the United States and the test method as performed

21 by ISO, you see a test result difference of 20 to 30

22 percent for the same -- for nominally the same test

23 method, nominally the same fuels, the same basic fire


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1 scenarios. So this has, rightfully so I think,

2 caused much concern among the committee.

3 It's clear from the ISO results that we

4 are unable to extinguish very similar fires. Fires

5 that are maybe 10, 15 percent bigger with slightly

6 different mounting hardware, etcetera; we're unable

7 to extinguish them with the current extinguishing

8 concentrations embodied in NFPA 2001.

9 And I'd submit that if you had any other

10 similar hazard classification where such minor

11 differences resulted in a successful extinguishing

12 versus abject failure to extinguish, other committees

13 would take similar action.

14 This issue is exaggerated by the problem

15 with these agents that if you have a failure to

16 extinguish in a room full of a halocarbon gas, you

17 have made the situation much worse.

18 It's not just a matter of, Gee, I didn't

19 extinguish it, I got slightly more damage, it took a

20 little longer to put out.

21 It's the difference between, I put it out

22 and nothing happened, to, I filled the room with

23 thermal decomposition products that look like


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1 hydrogen fluoride.

2 MR. CLARY: 30 seconds.

3 MR. DiNENNO: Relative to the real fire

4 test results, we did see some of those tests or some

5 of those real world data.

6 Most of them had no concentration data

7 associated with them and the ones that did had

8 concentrations using the old design concentrations

9 which you'd expect because those were the

10 concentrations in effect for the first ten to fifteen

11 years of the standard. So thank you very much, and I

12 urge you to vote against the motion.


14 5, please.

15 MR. HOFFMAN: Thank you. My name is

16 David Hoffman. I'm with Siemens Building

17 Technologies. I'm also the marketing communications

18 chairperson for the Fire Suppression Systems

19 Association and I am speaking today on their behalf.

20 Most of what I was going to say has

21 already been said in support of the motion. However,

22 I do want to briefly reiterate that the FSSA current

23 members responded to survey requests and have


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1 reported 23,400 systems installed since 1993 and 191

2 fire events that required extinguishment or

3 activation by systems that are covered under Standard

4 NFPA 2001, and out of those 191 fire events, all 191

5 fires were extinguished successfully.

6 For that reason I urge support of this

7 motion because I feel that this proposal is a

8 solution in search of a problem. I urge you to

9 please vote in support of this motion. Thank you.

10 MR. CLARY: Thank you. And we'll stay

11 with microphone number 5.

12 MR. ROBIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

13 Mark Robin. I'm a senior technical consultant for

14 DuPont, principal NFPA 2001, speaking in support of

15 the motion.

16 The ROC proposal based Class A design

17 concentrations on either a standardized UL Class A

18 fire test or a Class B cup burner test, whichever

19 test provides the higher extinguishing concentration.

20 I want to make three points on this

21 comment. First, there's no technical justification

22 for basing Class A performance on Class B tests.

23 The fire industry has known for a long


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1 time there are fundamental differences between Class

2 A and Class B fires, for example, fire growth,

3 etcetera. As a result, the UL standards that are

4 employed today are based on a recognition of this

5 fact. The Class A design concentration is based on

6 Class A fire testing.

7 Second, the proposal's based on belief by

8 some that the current Class A design concentrations

9 are inadequate. The critical point here I think is

10 this is based on a belief.

11 There's no peer reviewed data from the

12 field or laboratory supporting the contention the

13 MDC's are too low. As a result, there's no consensus

14 among the technical experts that such an increase is

15 required.

16 If you look at field experience -- we've

17 heard this before -- we've had 20 years of field

18 experience with not a single failure to extinguish a

19 fire.

20 Laboratory scale results have also failed

21 to produce a smoking gun providing indisputable or

22 compelling evidence of a need for increased design

23 concentrations.


21

1 Finally the ROC makes no technical sense

2 in its treatment of the different types of clean

3 agents.

4 The ROC would raise the design

5 concentration for halocarbon-based agents but for the

6 inert gasses the design concentrations will remain

7 the same.

8 There's no evidence from the field or

9 from the laboratory to support this idea that the

10 MDC's are somehow too low for halocarbons but somehow

11 adequate for inert gasses.

12 Based on the above, I would urge the NFPA

13 members to support the motion. Thank you.


15 2.

16 MR. CAMPBELL: I'm Bruce Campbell with

17 Hughes Associates and I speak against the motion. I

18 think one thing we can't lose sight of with the

19 safety factors is the fact that the safety factor's

20 also there to support changing conditions of the

21 enclosure.

22 You may have a door slightly open or

23 ceiling tile that's up or a floor tile up, something


22

1 like that, where you need the extra concentration to

2 account for that.

3 And I'm in the field quite a bit and see

4 those conditions almost every week. And when we talk

5 about success and failure, I do have a client that

6 recently had a discharge in a fire that was not a

7 success. It was a failure.

8 It caused a shutdown of some critical

9 equipment for a short period of time, and things like

10 this just don't get reported because my particular

11 client really has no need to report to anybody, but

12 it did happen within the last couple months. Thank

13 you.

14 MR. CLARY: Thank you. And

15 Mr. Harrington, final comment.

16 MR. HARRINGTON: Just to restate that the

17 -- final comment --

18 MR. CLARY: Go ahead and --

19 MR. HARRINGTON: Maybe, if it's okay,

20 I'll wait.

21 MR. CLARY: Okay. That's fine. Back to


23 MR. WYSOCKI: I'm Tom Wysocki. I'm a


23

1 member of the NFPA 2001 Technical Committee and have

2 been kicking around this business since about 1973.

3 We've worked --

4 MR. CLARY: For or against?

5 MR. WYSOCKI: I am against the motion,

6 sir. We've worked with Halons, we've worked with

7 carbon dioxide, we've worked with virtually all the

8 clean agents.

9 And having been through the process that

10 our chairman described, I think the committee did a

11 wise thing in setting a floor on the minimum design

12 concentration for Class A fires.

13 The field data that's been referenced,

14 we've been unable to substantiate the actual design

15 concentrations that were used in the successful

16 extinguishments with the exception of several

17 instances where the old higher concentration was

18 used, as Mr. DiNenno noted.

19 We also see the difference in essentially

20 the same test with just a small difference in the

21 fire that Mr. DiNenno noted between ISO and NFPA.

22 Given those things, I think our committee

23 did a prudent thing. It was a bit of a compromise


24

1 but I would urge that this assembly support the

2 action of the 2001 Technical Committee. Thank you.

3 MR. CLARY: Thank you. And number 2

4 again.

5 DR. LINTERIS: Hi. I'm Greg Linteris. I

6 work at NIST, National Institute of Standards and

7 Technology. I'm also on the 2001 committee but I'm

8 speaking here on behalf of myself.

9 I am against the motion for the following

10 reasons. I think the Class A test is a bad test. I

11 think what happens is you spray in the suppressant

12 but you don't mix it before it can interact with the

13 fire.

14 And so what happens is you can have

15 situations where the concentration locally at the

16 thing that you're trying to put out is higher than it

17 might be in a total flooding system where you're

18 assuming the concentration is a totally mixed

19 concentration. So I think that it's a bad test.

20 I think you can easily conceive of

21 situations where you have fires -- conceive of -- I

22 have made and seen fires that you cannot put out with

23 these clean agents using the cup burner


25

1 concentrations which is what we're trying to go to.

2 This is trying to fix a bad situation with a less bad

3 number.

4 And finally, there is actually

5 fundamental reasons for using the cup burner heptane

6 numbers. There's some great work at NIST by Wing

7 Tsang, a preeminent world class chemical kineticist,

8 that shows the chemical mechanisms of how some of

9 these reacting HFC's for example, chemical compounds,

10 work.

11 The chemistry is the same for a wide

12 range of hydrocarbon-like compounds. So to a large

13 extent how they work doesn't make too much difference

14 based on the fuel type.

15 So there is actually reason to tie it to

16 the cup burner number. And again, that's just an

17 attempt to undo a situation which is not very good

18 because the Class A test isn't particularly good.

19 Thank you.

20 MR. CLARY: Thank you. And microphone

21 number 3 please.

22 MR. STILWELL: Brad Stilwell with Fike

23 Corporation. The first thing I'd like to correct is


26

1 there are indeed --

2 MR. CLARY: Are you for or --

3 MR. STILWELL: I'm sorry. I'm for the

4 motion, yes. I would like to say there are indeed

5 field successful extinguishments at this 1.2 design

6 concentration that uses the current UL FM test

7 protocol.

8 The other thing I'd like to say is I

9 don't believe the test protocol is a bad test

10 protocol. Some of the things we do, we -- One thing

11 we do, we have an 18-inch by 18-inch wood crib that's

12 four things high and we put a gallon or a half gallon

13 of gasoline on it.

14 We burn it for about six minutes and we

15 put it in an enclosure and shut the doors and it

16 takes a minute, minute and a half, to put the fires

17 out.

18 The other thing, the plastic fires are

19 burning for about three and a half minutes before we

20 extinguish. I think -- and I've conducted tests on

21 inert gasses, liquid gas, several gasses, and I would

22 disagree with the statement that it's a bad test.

23 Thank you.


27

1 MR. CLARY: Thank you. Now -- Okay.

2 Stay at the microphone.

3 MR. WYSOCKI: Sorry. I'd just like to --

4 Mr. Stilwell, if there have indeed been --

5 MR. CLARY: You have to address through

6 the Chair. Are you for or against the motion?

7 MR. WYSOCKI: I'm sorry. My name is

8 Thomas Wysocki. Mr. Chair, I am against the motion

9 and I'd like to address the last statement that

10 Mr. Stilwell made that there have indeed been

11 extinguishments at 1.2 times the MEC. That data has

12 not been forwarded --

13 MR. STILWELL: If you read my --

14 MR. CLARY: Wait a second. Through the

15 Chair. Right now the Chair recognizes number 2.

16 MR. WYSOCKI: I'll make the statement

17 that at least I on the Technical Committee have not

18 seen this data at these lower concentrations being

19 used for documented extinguishments.

20 I think that piece of information, if it

21 exists, would have been very helpful in looking at

22 this. But I think we still would have come to the

23 same conclusion. That's all. Thank you.


28

1 MR. CLARY: Thank you. Now number 3.

2 MR. STILWELL: I'm sorry, sir. One thing

3 I'd like to --

4 MR. CLARY: Name? Are you for and

5 against the motion?

6 MR. STILWELL: I'm sorry. Brad Stilwell

7 from Fike. I am indeed for the motion, and when I

8 submitted one of my comments about the safety factors

9 and the current Class A protocol, I provided roughly

10 17 cases where fires were extinguished.

11 And the one that jumped in my head the

12 quickest is there was a cancer research center in

13 southern California and that document was indeed --

14 We made the flyer of it.

15 It was an FE-25 system designed at

16 8 percent and it put out a fire in a UPS room. And

17 if you go back to the NFPA archives you will find

18 that information in it.


20 number 2.

21 DR. LINTERIS: Greg Linteris, NIST. As

22 everybody in here probably knows, not all fires --

23 MR. CLARY: Are you for or against?


29

1

2 DR. LINTERIS: I'm against. Not all

3 fires are created equal. Just because one

4 concentration can put out lots and lots of fires

5 doesn't mean it will put out all fires. It all

6 depends upon how well stabilized the fire is. Thank

7 you.

8 MR. CLARY: Thank you. Okay.

9 Mr. Harrington.

10 MR. HARRINGTON: You can see how much fun

11 my committee is. (Laughter) Okay. All I want to

12 say is that -- reiterate that the committee work

13 resulted in a consensus that was fairly strong.

14 And I listened to the arguments today on

15 both sides and I believe the committee heard and

16 discussed everything that we heard today and came to

17 the action that they did. So that's it.

18 MR. CLARY: Thank you. And with this I

19 will proceed to the vote on the Motion Sequence 2001

20 which is to return a portion of the report in the

21 form of Proposal 2001-24 and related Comment 2001-16.

22 All in favor of the motion signify by raising your

23 hands. Thank you. And all opposed, same sign.


30

1 And there is no way I'm calling this one,

2 so we're going to do electronic voting. So I now

3 call members to use your devices.

4 You must have a red badge with the word

5 Member on the top to be voting. I'll remind you that

6 either 1 in favor of the motion, i.e. to accept, or

7 2, opposed to the the motion, to reject.

8 The motion on the floor is to return a

9 portion of a report and in the form of Proposal

10 2001-24 and related Comment 2001-16.

11 So at this time please submit your votes.

12 Five seconds. And the balloting is now closed. And

13 the motion is rejected. And it fails, too.

14 Next up is Motion Sequence 2001-2 and

15 looks like microphone number 5.

16 MR. GRODSKY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

17 Larry Grodsky, Siemens Industry, also president of

18 Fire Suppression Systems Association, representing

19 the Fire Suppression Systems Association.

20 I move to return a portion of the report

21 in the form of Proposal 2001-26 and related Comment

22 2001-17.

23 MR. CLARY: Thank you. Do we have a


31

1 second?


3 MR. CLARY: We have a second also.

4 Mr. Grodsky is the designated representative for the

5 FSSA. Please proceed.

6 MR. Grodsky: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

7 The ROC proposed to add a table of design

8 concentrations to be used for Class C hazards.

9 The ROC includes five conditions which

10 must exist in the hazard in order to use the

11 specified design concentrations.

12 As I enumerate the criteria for the use

13 of the design concentrations, please try to picture

14 yourselves in a computer room or at that type of

15 structure trying to determine if these conditions

16 exist.

17 Condition number one. Cable bundles

18 containing power cables must be less than four inches

19 in diameter.

20 Condition number two. Cable trays must

21 be filled to less than 60 percent of their

22 cross-sectional area.

23 Number three. Cable trays must be spaced


32

1 more than ten inches apart. Number four. Maximum

2 power consumption or production in an individual

3 piece of equipment must be less than or equal to five

4 kilowatts.

5 And number five, electric power suppled

6 to the equipment must be 480 volts or less. The

7 enforcement of such conditions in real life field

8 applications is untenable.

9 These conditions are not supported by any

10 test data, technical justification, or field

11 experience.

12 In fact, the latest research study on

13 clean agent concentrations required for Class C

14 hazards sponsored by the NFPA Fire Protection

15 Research Foundation and funded in part by the FSSA

16 indicates that clean agent extinguishing system

17 concentrations are predicted upon energy flux, not

18 upon the conditions given in the ROC.

19 The Fire Suppression Systems Association

20 fully supports development of a standardized design

21 concentration for Class C fire hazards based on good

22 science.

23 The FSSA is working with members of the


33

1 NFPA 2001 Technical Committee to develop a tentative

2 interim agreement which will add standardized design

3 concentrations based on clear, usable, enforceable

4 criteria for NFPA 2001.

5 Specifically, the FSSA would like to see

6 design concentrations suitable for the most common

7 spaces protected by clean agents; namely, IT

8 equipment rooms and telecommunications facilities,

9 added to the standard.

10 Once again, tens of thousands of clean

11 agent systems have been installed over the last 20

12 years. As we said, we reported 191 successful fire

13 extinguishments, and 20 of those were in energized

14 electrical spaces, and zero failures to extinguish

15 have been available.

16 Clearly in the current provisions of the

17 standard there's been -- the standard's been very

18 effective.

19 To close, we ask that the assembly to

20 vote in favor of motion to retain the current

21 requirements for Class C minimum design

22 concentrations and remove the language contained in

23 the ROC as it is unenforceable and technically


34

1 unsupported. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

2 MR. CLARY: Thank you. And

3 Mr. Harrington, would you like to offer the

4 committee's position?

5 MR. HARRINGTON: Yes, I would, and I need

6 to speak as fast as that gentleman but I'm not sure

7 I'm capable of it. I'll try.

8 Because I have -- There's a lot of

9 history that the committee has been part of and it

10 goes back several cycles.

11 We were here in I believe it was 2007

12 with a similar motion related to Class C, and the

13 motion was upheld and the current standard shows

14 that, basically saying that Class C concentrations

15 shall be at least equal to Class A concentrations.

16 So the committee has been very active in

17 the process of trying to better understand the Class

18 C fire risk, and I want to go through some of the

19 history pretty quick, touch on it at a high level

20 just so you have an appreciation for what the

21 committee went through and what fed into the

22 committee action.

23 So in the last cycle -- Let me skip that


35

1 part because I don't think I have time. Let me pick

2 it up after -- into the current cycle.

3 It was recognized in the last cycle that

4 we needed more technical basis to address the issue

5 of Class C.

6 So we approached the Fire Protection

7 Research Foundation and, through their leadership,

8 were successful in establishing a project, and also

9 through funding and volunteer time of the entire

10 industry and all segments of the industry, a very

11 cooperative effort through the Fire Protection

12 Research Foundation on Class C fires, culminating in

13 a report.

14 The contractor who did the study and

15 wrote the report was Dr. Greg Linteris who is here

16 today. And that report was published in January 09.

17 One month later a workshop was held at

18 the SUPDET conference in Orlando in February of 09

19 just on Class C issues.

20 Three working groups were established;

21 one on electronic data processing hazard

22 environments, one on telecommunication, and one on

23 power generation.


36

1 At the end of the workshop, all of the

2 results of the working task groups were brought

3 together and some conclusions were drawn.

4 And both Doctor Linteris's report and

5 minutes, if you will, from the SUPDET meeting are

6 available on line.

7 What came out of the report that Doctor

8 Linteris published are three major conclusions: With

9 added energy, flame requires more agent to

10 extinguish.

11 A little energy makes a big difference in

12 the amount of agent required. And energy flux -- as

13 was previously mentioned, energy flux to the burning

14 surface is the key but not -- has not been studied

15 very much up to this point.

16 What came out of the work group session

17 SUPDET: The scope of Class C hazards should be

18 focused. Narrow it down and focus on EDP, electronic

19 data processing facility hazards and telecom, and

20 don't try to include power generation.

21 It was recognized that the upper boundary

22 of heat flux energy that could be addressed is

23 probably in the 50 kilowatt per square meter range.


37

1 And it also was recognized that to really

2 tackle this problem, extensive round-robin testing of

3 Class C scenarios is probably needed but it was also

4 recognized that probably the industry would not find

5 it cost effective to fund it.

6 MR. CLARY: Please try to summarize.

7 Please try to wrap up.

8 MR. HARRINGTON: So the point I'm trying

9 to make with that is that all of that came forward

10 into this cycle and was all considered by the

11 committee in its deliberations and resulted in the

12 ROC that you have before you. And I'll just leave it

13 at that.

14 MR. CLARY: Thank you, and microphone

15 number 3 please.

16 MS. ADRIAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My

17 name is Katherine Adrian. I'm an engineered systems

18 product manager responsible for CO2, halocarbon, and

19 inert gas fire suppression systems.

20 I'm here today representing Tyco

21 International, a company which provides a wide range

22 of fire protection products and services.

23 We are here in support of the certified


38

1 amending motion to make the existing language stated

2 in the 2008 edition of NFPA 2001 paragraph 5.4.2.5.

3 The proposal to amend the design

4 concentration for Class C hazards lacks

5 justification.

6 A change of this magnitude requires

7 scientific test data which at this time has not been

8 presented.

9 In fact, the only data that has been

10 presented to date shows successful extinguishment of

11 Class C hazards with no reported failures.

12 In addition, the proposal includes

13 criteria that are not well defined, allowing for

14 different interpretations of the standard.

15 It is impractical to require testing on

16 every installation where the proposed criteria cannot

17 be met without an agreed-upon test protocol.

18 In closing, Tyco is supporting the

19 Certified Amending Motion based on the absence of

20 scientific data and agreed-upon test protocol which

21 we believe will compromise the integrity of the

22 standard.



39

1 number 2.

2 MR. DiNENNO: This is Phil DiNenno with

3 Hughes Associates speaking in opposition to the

4 motion, sort of following up a bit on the chairman's

5 remarks about how the committee got where it got.

6 The committee's position three years ago

7 was to go to a concentration that was in

8 approximately a safety factor of 1.6 over the minimum

9 extinguishing concentration.

10 And if you look at the Research

11 Foundation data, the extinguishing concentration for

12 fuels that are externally heated or with energy added

13 sort of levels off at what number? 1.6, 1.7, two

14 times that minimum concentration.

15 If you think back about what

16 concentration we used on these applications for --

17 with CO2 and with Halon, the ratio is about 1.6 to

18 1.7 times.

19 We are not proposing anything so

20 draconian in this particular version of the standard.

21 We are at an analogous concentration increase of

22 about 1.05 to 1.1.

23 So the committee worked very hard to try


40

1 to find a compromise position which would fit most of

2 the needs of the user community.

3 Relative to the comment that those

4 requirements or those criteria are too complicated to

5 enforce, I would only add that those criteria have

6 been in the ISO documents for I think about 15 years

7 now.

8 So clearly the fire equipment

9 distributors and installers who are installing

10 nominally the same hardware and nominally the same

11 gasses in Europe and throughout the rest of the world

12 have not hit a wall with enforcing or interpreting

13 these requirements.

14 We also know that if this proposal is

15 accepted, we'll go to a situation where we're using

16 concentrations of gasses that will not put out --

17 based on published information, some information

18 which is currently in 2001, will not put out

19 relatively simple energized electrical fires

20 involving single small cables. So this is a very

21 nominal set of changes.

22 We heard in 2007 the same calls by the

23 industry for -- looking for solutions looking for


41

1 improvements, perhaps even recognizing the potential

2 for an issue.

3 Effectively they have added or

4 contributed nothing to that debate and now we're

5 asked to roll back the clock because the criteria

6 aren't -- they don't particularly agree with the

7 criteria that the committee put together.

8 So, in closing, we know that if we accept

9 this motion we'll have electrical energized fire

10 scenarios that we can't put out.

11 We know from a theoretical and a small-

12 scale test basis that the concentrations we're using

13 now aren't acceptable.

14 We have that well-documented in a

15 National Fire -- or a Fire Protection Research

16 Foundation record report on the subject.

17 So I think the committee was well within

18 its technical basis and technical grounds to make

19 this very nominal and modest change. So I urge you

20 to vote against this motion and support the committee

21 in this action. Thank you.


23 1 please.


42

1

2 MR. RIVERS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

3 Again, this is -- my name is Paul Rivers. I'm an

4 application development fire protection engineer at

5 3M Company and I'm a principal in the NFPA 2001

6 Committee -- I'm not speaking on behalf of the

7 committee -- and the manufacturer of a clean agent in

8 the standard.

9 I rise to support of the NITMAM due to

10 the following two claims made by the committee: In

11 the committee action changing Section 5.4.2.5 and

12 associated paragraphs, the annexed material claims

13 that the new Class C design values using a 1.35

14 safety factor are, quote, also based on the results

15 of extinguishment tests involving energized

16 electrical equipment. That is a false statement.

17 The committee's statement uses the

18 rationale for the acceptance of this proposal claims

19 the comment, quote, is consistent with laboratory

20 tests on energized equipment. That is a false

21 statement.

22 No specific fire data underpins the new

23 table -- new data in the table of design


43

1 concentrations. I know because many of the research

2 papers generating fire data used as rationale for

3 these two false claims are based on papers that were

4 coauthored by me.

5 Further, a recent paper written by NIST,

6 referenced here earlier and funded through the Fire

7 Protection Research Foundation, includes specific

8 data referred to in committee claiming extinguishment

9 data based on radiant heat flux rates as a rationale

10 for higher concentrations. It's excellent data.

11 But these data have no relation to the

12 new table of design concentrations. I know because

13 3M generated and published that data along with NIST

14 back in the 1990's.

15 Using radiant heat flux rate as rationale

16 for higher concentrations is valid, but only if

17 applied correctly.

18 These data of heat flux rates that were

19 used to justify the increased concentrations are in

20 the range of 10 to 60 kilowatts per meter squared,

21 while the real heat flux rates in data centers and

22 telecommunications facilities are an order of

23 magnitude less, in the 1 to 4 kilowatt per meter


44

1 squared range.

2 We need agent performance data at those

3 lower heat flux rates on which to correctly base

4 Class C design, and to that end 3M is committed to

5 doing and plans to do the following:

6 Currently we are conducting multiple

7 agent performance testings in our laboratories at the

8 appropriate lower heat flux rates to publish within

9 the next year.

10 We are confirming with experts in the

11 data center and telecommunications industries, such

12 as those on NFPA 75 and 76, the validity of such heat

13 flux rates in end use.

14 We plan to work with NIST as proposed

15 to provide independent validation of agent

16 performance at the proper lower heat flux rates

17 similar to the way we did back in the 90's.

18 And we will submit a proposal to NFPA

19 2001 Technical Committee in the next cycle for Class

20 C design concentrations based on real data.

21 I ask the membership to join me in

22 support of this NITMAM proposal and to send this

23 issue back to the committee to remove the baseless


45

1 design criteria from the standard as submitted and

2 replace it with design values based on relevant

3 independently reviewed data. Thank you,

4 Mr. Chairman.

5 MR. CLARY: Okay. Thank you. Microphone

6 number 3 please.

7 MR. STILWELL: Yes. This is Brad

8 Stilwell with Fike Corporation and I support the

9 motion with a little bit of an asterisk and I'll

10 explain myself here.

11 Class C fires -- and the other presenters

12 are correct -- there is a lot of data and the NFPA

13 Research Foundation did a study that shows when you

14 augment fires electrically, more agent is required.

15 And what my plans would be is if this

16 motion is successful -- the reason why I'm saying is

17 successful is I would follow up with an amending

18 motion to include the table that is called out in the

19 standard right now, and I would make a motion -- if

20 you want to look at 2001-17 Log 10, which basically

21 what that does is it sets the concentrations for

22 Class C fires at what's currently proposed in the

23 standard.


46

1 But what it does, it helps the end user,

2 the end user, the ANE, as far as making it more clear

3 about what design concentration you should use.

4 When systems are installed in data

5 centers, generally the room is empty, they don't know

6 how much cable's going to be in the cable trays, they

7 don't know the diameter of the cables.

8 And I also believe that a lot of these

9 criteria don't necessarily -- there really is no

10 technical background that says because the cable is

11 four inches we need to use more.

12 So I believe we should just have a table

13 that says, These are the concentrations that we need

14 to use, and use them. Thank you so much.


16 5, please.

17 MR. WYSOCKI: Thomas Wysocki, Guardian

18 Services, Incorporated, a member of the NFPA 2001

19 Technical Committee, speaking in favor of the motion

20 with the same caveat as Mr. Stilwell just put forth.

21 The NFPA Technical Committee in good

22 faith tried to put together a set of criteria which

23 would make these design concentrations readily usable


47

1 in the most common Class C type hazards. In

2 retrospect I think we missed the mark a bit.

3 For example, the restriction on equipment

4 power to 5 kilowatts is really not technically

5 correct. We should have been looking at energy flux

6 kilowatts per square meter. That's just one example

7 of how we missed the mark a bit on this.

8 Nonetheless, what is in the ROC is much

9 better than what is in the 2008 version where we

10 basically say Class C equals the minimum of Class A.

11 Now, only because Mr. Stilwell has

12 indicated his intent to make a follow-up motion to

13 move his ROC proposal, I am asking this group to vote

14 for the NITMAM in order to enable what I think would

15 be a very good, very good, move for this standard to

16 make a definitive statement on the concentrations for

17 energized electrical equipment within a certain class

18 of equipment and to allow this to be readily used by

19 the people that install these clean agent systems in

20 the most common hazards; data centers and

21 telecommunication facilities.

22 So it's maybe a little bit convoluted

23 saying, Support this NITMAM so that we can go on to a


48

1 follow-up motion, but that is what I am asking this

2 group to do. Thank you.


4 number 2.

5 DR. LINTERIS: Greg Linteris, NIST,

6 member of the 2001 Committee and speaking on behalf

7 of myself, I sort of don't know where --

8 MR. CLARY: And you are --

9 DR. LINTERIS: I don't know.

10 MR. CLARY: Against?

11 DR. LINTERIS: Against. I guess I'm

12 against here because that's the sign I'm at. But

13 here's what's going on.

14 So I did this study for the NFPA Research

15 Foundation, and we didn't do any new research. I

16 just looked at what was out there in the literature

17 and -- but since -- My two areas of research at NIST

18 are fire suppression and materials flammability so

19 this project fit very well.

20 There certainly is technical

21 justification for requiring more agent. Imagine a

22 night light -- Do you remember the old style night

23 lights that we used to have when we were younger?


49

1 The little round things that would heat up a little

2 bit, they're 6 watts or something like that.

3 A night light like that, if it's leaning

4 against a material, can double the amount of clean

5 agent that you need to put the fire out. It doesn't

6 take much heat flux to increase by a factor of two

7 the amount of agent you need.

8 So when you think about it in equipment

9 -- in a data center, we're not talking about the

10 nominally operating equipment that has some heat

11 generation. We're talking about a failed piece of

12 equipment. That's why we have a backup system.

13 And it's pretty easy to envision a

14 situation where you have heat fluxes on the order of

15 a night light when something is going wrong.

16 Now, as far as technical justification, I

17 looked at all the studies that people had done where

18 they tried to simulate failing equipment and then

19 figure out how much agent you needed to put out those

20 fires.

21 And when people did that, I found heat

22 flux is much, much higher than this six watts per

23 square centimeter.


50

1 So there's definitely -- Based on all the

2 studies that people did -- and many of these people

3 are included among the speakers -- based on the tests

4 that they did to try to simulate failing equipment,

5 you expect much higher levels of heat flux. So we're

6 well into this regime where you need twice as much

7 agent.

8 So I think that what we're trying to do

9 here is remedy a situation where the old standard is

10 not requiring enough agent or trying to increase the

11 amount that we need because, for situations where

12 you're adding energy, it makes a tremendously big

13 difference.

14 How best to do it; reject this or accept

15 it and then go with Brad's thing, I'm not sure, but

16 I'm against at this point. Thank you.

17 MR. CLARY: And at that, Mr. Harrington.

18 MR. HARRINGTON: Okay. Again, I think

19 that the group here has heard the for and against

20 arguments that the committee heard and the committee

21 took action to find a compromise but still require

22 additional agent for Class C fires. And I'll leave

23 it to you.


51

1 MR. CLARY: Thank you. And seeing no one

2 else at the mikes we're going to be proceeding in the

3 vote on Motion 2001-2 which is to return a portion of

4 the report in the form of Proposal 2001-26 and

5 related Comment 2001-17.

6 So all in favor of the motion please

7 signify by raising your hands. Thank you. All

8 opposed? I suspect -- No. We're going to go to the

9 electronic vote.

10 So by using your voting devices -- You

11 must have a red badge with the word Member on top to

12 be voting. I remind you either vote 1 in favor of

13 the motion to accept or, 2, opposed to the motion, to

14 reject.

15 And again, the motion on the floor is to

16 return a portion of a report in the form of Proposal

17 2001-26 and related Comment 2001-17.

18 At this time please record your votes.

19 Five seconds. And the balloting is now closed. I

20 thought it was close. And the motion passes.

21 And since this is the last item on the

22 docket for this one, at this time is there any

23 follow-up motions?


52

1 MR. STILWELL: Yes, sir.

2 MR. CLARY: Microphone number 3 please.

3 MR. STILWELL: This is Brad Stilwell with

4 Fike Corporation and I would like to make a motion to

5 accept the original comment from the ROC, 2001-17,

6 Log 10. If you'd like I can read that comment or --

7 MR. CLARY: No. Hold on for a second,

8 but thank you. I have it now. Can you please --

9 First of all, according to our rules I'll need two

10 seconds.



13 MR. CLARY: Okay. We have the two

14 seconds. Would you please now explain the relevance

15 of your follow-up motion and how it relates to the

16 actions that we've already taken on the floor.

17 MR. STILWELL: Very good. The NITMAM

18 that was just voted on was actually derived from my

19 initial comment.

20 My initial comment was, The minimum

21 design concentration for Class C hazards shall be

22 extinguishing concentrations times a safety factor of

23 1.3.


53

1 The justification for that was a lot of

2 the fire research that has been given, not all of it,

3 but a lot of it's that's been given about the fires

4 being extinguished in the field is based on the

5 concentration times a safety factor of 1.3.

6 The one caveat that I have in my initial

7 comment was the minimum design concentrations for

8 spaces containing energized electrical hazard supply

9 greater than 480 volts which remains powered during

10 and after agent discharge shall be determined by

11 testing as necessary and a hazard analysis.

12 So my initial proposal was, yes, we

13 should indeed follow that table that we just

14 discussed but we shouldn't have all of those other

15 issues around it; the cable bundles and cable trays.

16 So it was more of a simple thing for the

17 users of the standard to say, Okay, I have a Class C

18 hazard, I should use this design concentration.

19 MR. CLARY: So do I understand the

20 follow-up motion to be that you are moving then to

21 accept Comment 2001-17 and its related -- in its

22 original form?

23 MR. STILWELL: Yes, sir.


54

1 MR. CLARY: As the presiding officer I'll

2 accept that follow-up motion. So at this time,

3 Mr. Harrington?

4 MR. HARRINGTON: What the committee did

5 was took that comment and essentially took the basis

6 of 1.35 safety factor and created a table that showed

7 the resulting concentrations that could be used, and

8 then added some caveats, some restrictions and

9 conditions.

10 Going back to the comment will eliminate

11 those -- all but one, I think, of those restrictions,

12 at least the restriction that if you have a hazard

13 and voltage exceeding 480 volts, you have to do a

14 special test in order to determine the design

15 concentration. Otherwise you use 1.35 times the MEC.

16 And I just wanted to clarify, you know,

17 what's different. And essentially the committee

18 consensus is that an increase in the design

19 concentration through an increased safety factor is

20 needed for Class C and this would accomplish that.

21 MR. CLARY: Thank you. And for those out

22 there, this is the follow-up. Again, we're talking

23 in regards to the original language of Comment


55

1 2001-17, Log 10, which is found on page 2001-6

2 through -7, the Report of Comments fall of 2010.

3 Microphone number 5.

4 MR. WYSOCKI: Thomas Wysocki, Guardian

5 Services, members of the NFPA 2001 Technical

6 Committee, and also the Task Group chair that worked

7 on this particular Class C issue in committee.

8 I speak in favor of Mr. Stilwell's

9 motion. I'd like the group to consider the result of

10 passing Mr. Stilwell's motion versus rejecting his

11 motion.

12 Let's first look at rejecting. If we

13 should reject his motion, the NFPA 2001 standard will

14 effectively return to the language which says Class C

15 design concentrations shall be minimum equal to Class

16 A design concentrations.

17 Doctor Linteris has already spoken to the

18 fact that energy-augmented fires do require more

19 agent than fires that are not subjected to external

20 energy flux. That fact in itself makes it incorrect

21 for us to go back to the current 2008 verbage.

22 What Mr. Stilwell has proposed is

23 essentially to have those values in the table that


56

1 you saw in the ROC, but to take away the truly

2 difficult -- if we want to be charitable towards it,

3 they're very difficult to enforce. They're probably

4 more like unenforceable criteria.

5 They don't have really strong technical

6 substantiation and, as I said earlier, the 5 kilowatt

7 limit on electrical equipment is not a valid limit.

8 As Doctor Linteris pointed out, you could

9 have a 15 watt bulb that could subject a fire to a

10 heat flux that would require additional

11 concentrations.

12 And likewise, we could have a 100

13 kilowatt air handling unit within a room that would

14 have zero effect on a fire in a piece of electrical

15 data processing equipment.

16 So that's not a good criteria that we

17 have in there. I apologize for that but it's not.

18 What Mr. Stilwell has proposed will give us the

19 concentrations that will account for a reasonable

20 amount of energy flux that might be expected in

21 places like data processing centers,

22 telecommunications facilities, going -- the present

23 forward.


57

1 And one of the other items that we need

2 to consider is that the energy densities and the heat

3 that's in current data processing centers is quite a

4 bit more than what it has been over the last 20

5 years, and it's still increasing.

6 So with those things in mind, this would

7 be an excellent, excellent step for this group to

8 take and help out the NFPA 2001 Technical Committee

9 put forth a document which will be very useful and

10 technically as good as we can get it at the present

11 time given our level of knowledge.

12 So I strongly urge that you vote in favor

13 of Mr. Stilwell's motion. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

14 MR. CLARY: Thank you. And everyone kind

15 of be ready at the microphones they want to go to.

16 Microphone number 5, please.

17 DR. LINTERIS: Greg Linteris, NIST, 2001

18 committee member speaking on behalf of myself. I

19 agree with what Tom said.

20 I think this is definitely a big

21 improvement and a step in the right direction and I

22 think that Brad has really proposed a good solution

23 here and I'm in favor of it.


58


2 number 4.

3 MR. RIVERS: My name is Paul Rivers with

4 3M Company and I'm stepping up here in opposition to

5 this proposal which makes me -- it's a little

6 something -- considering that for the last 15 years

7 I've been looking at trying to get this right, I'm

8 not opposed to increasing concentrations but the main

9 thing that I am opposed with is putting in data or

10 putting in values into the standard that are not

11 based on real data.

12 Now, I can understand why you'd want to

13 have that. I know why the installers want to have

14 it. They want to have that guidance in the standard

15 which they haven't had.

16 I think we can do that same thing. If

17 you want to do it via TIA we can do it in a few

18 months after the publication of this document and not

19 have data that is going to go into the standard only

20 to be changed again with new data -- values going

21 into the standards that are going to be changed with

22 new data that we will provide.

23 I don't have a problem doing that but I


59

1 would urge the membership here not to vote for this

2 and allow the process to go ahead and get us some

3 real data on which to base values in the standard.

4 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


6 5.

7 MR. DiNENNO: Phil DiNenno, Hughes

8 Associates, speaking in favor of the motion. I'll

9 echo what the previous two speakers in support of the

10 motion indicated.

11 And I also wanted to address Paul Rivers'

12 point by saying that the data that we're putting in

13 is clearly not perfect.

14 It probably represents the low end of

15 what we might expect for other more severe power

16 scenarios, but the data that's being included, at

17 least for the agents that I've looked at, does

18 represent realistic extinguishment data for some

19 electrically heating scenarios.

20 So while it might not be perfect and it

21 might not be representative of all electrical heating

22 scenarios for all agents, it's much better than what

23 we have now.


60

1 So I would urge you to vote for this

2 follow-up motion. Thank you.

3 MR. CLARY: Thank you. Mr. Harrington,

4 any final comments?

5 MR. HARRINGTON: I have none.

6 MR. CLARY: Okay. At that we're moving

7 to the motion which is on the floor which again is to

8 accept the original comment submission, 2001-17, Log

9 10.

10 And at that, all in favor of the motion

11 signify by hands up. Thank you. All opposed, same

12 sign. And the motion passes. At that we conclude

13 with this document. Thank you, Mr. Harrington.


15 afternoon is that of the Technical Committee on

16 Structures, Construction and Materials. This is the

17 committee's report.

18 The Technical Committee chair is Peter

19 Willse of Global Asset Protection Services, Hartford,

20 Connecticut.

21 The committee report can be found in the

22 blue 2011 Annual Revision Cycle ROP and ROC with

23 Certified Amending Motions that are contained in the


61

1 Motions Committee report and behind me on the screen.

2 We will proceed in the order of the

3 motion numbers presented. Mr. Willse.

4 MR. WILLSE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

5 Mr. Chair, ladies and gentlemen, the report of the

6 Technical Committee on Structures, Construction and

7 Materials is presented for adoption and can be found

8 in the Report on Proposals and the Report on Comments

9 for the 2011 Annual Meeting Revision Cycle.


11 report consisting of a partial revision of NFPA 703,

12 standard for their fire retardant-treated wood and

13 fire retardant coatings for building materials.



16 members.


18 703-1 to 703-3 of the Report on Proposals and on

19 pages 703-1 to 703-2 on the Report on Comments. The

20 presiding officer will now proceed with the Certified

21 Amending Motions.

22 MR. CLARY: Thank you, Mr. Willse. We'll

23 proceed to Motion Sequence 703-1 and microphone


62

1 number 5.

2 DR. HIRSCHLER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman

3 Marcelo Hirschler, GBH International speaking on

4 behalf of NAFRA and I move to accept Comment 703-3.

5 MR. CLARY: Do we have a second?


7 MR. CLARY: We do have a second. Please

8 proceed.

9 DR. HIRSCHLER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

10 The changes that were proposed to be made to this

11 definition are proprietary changes.

12 What is being proposed is that the words

13 "or other means during manufacture" of making fire

14 retardant-treated wood be taken out.

15 This document and all of NFPA's codes and

16 standards are performance documents where certain

17 performance is required.

18 We don't normally -- We don't ever tell

19 people how to make what you want to make. You make a

20 particular product. Then you go and run the test or

21 whatever performance is required and see if you pass

22 or not pass.

23 This is unique in which it is being --


63

1 the user of the standard is being told how this

2 product has to be made, not how it performs.

3 There are manufacturers who are making

4 products that are not being made by the pressure

5 process and yet comply with the requirements, the

6 requirements being ASTM E84, extended for 30 minutes

7 with a listed flame spread index of 25 or less, no

8 evidence of significant combustion, no flame

9 progressing more than 10.5 feet beyond the center

10 line of burners at any time during the test. I'm

11 just reading from here.

12 The point is that it is being done by

13 manufacturers without going through the pressure --

14 through the pressure process.

15 And so suddenly those products will no

16 longer be valid because the manufacturing process

17 they chose is different from the manufacturing

18 process chosen by the proponent of this definition.

19 That's just not acceptable.

20 And I want to make something very, very

21 clear because it was suggested that I'm dealing with

22 manufacturers who make coated product.

23 They may make coated products, but they


64

1 also make fire retardant-treated wood by

2 manufacturing process that are not the pressure

3 process.

4 Please support my motion and don't allow

5 something that is a propriety issue to come into the

6 standard. Thank you.

7 Just want to point out one more thing.

8 You're going to hear this discussion here, in 101 and

9 in 5000, because the same change of definition has

10 been put in all three.

11 Unfortunately we do not have the

12 definitions being extracted so -- they're all

13 independently the same so we're going to hear the

14 same thing three times. Sorry about that. But

15 please support this motion. Thank you.

16 MR. CLARY: Thank you. Mr. Willse, do

17 you have a committee perspective?

18 MR. WILLSE: Yes. I'll respond. Doctor

19 Hirschler is correct in the fact that we're going to

20 be hearing this again. We're going to be hearing it

21 under the NFPA 101-1 and 101-2 as well as the 5000-5

22 and 5000-6 comments that will come up.

23 The committee had received a public


65

1 proposal that was submitted in. A gentleman from --

2 who was a manufacturer of the wood products wrote the

3 proposal, said that as far as he knew there was only

4 pressure-treated that was being used, there were no

5 other proprietary systems. Therefore we could turn

6 around and eliminate that part.


8 1.

9 MR. BEITEL: Thank you. Jesse Beitel,

10 Hughes Associates, speaking for myself on this issue.

11 I am a member of the committee, I'm speaking for the

12 committee. What we wound up changing --

13 MR. CLARY: Are you speaking for or

14 against?

15 MR. BEITEL: I apologize. I'm speaking

16 for the motion on the floor. The committee basically

17 modified -- and you can see -- If you look at

18 Proposal 703-5 on page 703-2, you will see the

19 rewording that was done by the committee for the

20 definition of fire retardant-treated wood.

21 And basically while we moved a few --

22 added some words, we basically stripped out the words

23 "or other means during manufacture." And at that


66

1 point it sounded like a good idea.

2 Later on -- and in fact, even in my

3 letter ballot to that proposal, I realized that we

4 did that -- there are other issues and there are

5 other products which could potentially be used which

6 are not made the way that the committee rewrote the

7 proposal but could still pass the test and still

8 potentially be used as a fire retardant-treated wood

9 product.

10 So, for example, right now fire

11 retardant-treated wood is basically the wood and then

12 it is put into vats, pressure-treated. The chemicals

13 are forced by the pressure into the wood.

14 It comes out. We have fire

15 retardant-treated wood which will meet the

16 requirements of the 30-minute E-84 test.

17 If I have a product -- and I know of some

18 products that are like this -- where the manufacturer

19 may take layers of, for example, paper and basically

20 treat those layers with some type of resin material

21 which may have a fire-retardant component in it.

22 Then you take those layers and you put

23 them together. Then you actually then compress those


67

1 layers and create a product. Now that product, which

2 could also meet the 30-minute E-84 test, would now

3 not meet the definition of FRTW wood because it's not

4 necessarily impregnated into the product.

5 The components are treated and then the

6 product is formed. That's a big difference, and so

7 therefore those products would not be allowed.

8 So we have a problem with this. I think

9 that we need to go back to the standard definition.

10 We have some concerns.

11 And especially as some of these newer

12 products come onto the marketplace in the next

13 several years, we don't want to try to keep them out

14 because we wound up making a definition or a change

15 in the definition which is very proprietary for

16 existing products and may affect future products.

17 So I would ask that the assembly support

18 the motion on the floor. Thank you very much.


20 4 please.

21 MR. OWEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman my

22 name is Kris Owen. I represent Arch Wood Protection.

23 I support the motion on the floor.


68

1 Our company has been in the fire

2 retardant wood industry for over 60 years. As a

3 company whose history and ongoing business is based

4 on sound science, research and fire testing, leading

5 to successful wood treatment for safe and code-

6 conforming wood products, we ask that you support

7 this motion to ensure the phrase "or other means

8 during manufacture" be maintained in the standard.

9 For over 15 years, expending thousands of

10 dollars, working with a number of companies, we

11 continue to work toward introducing fire retardant

12 chemistries added during manufacture -- in the USB

13 industry, for example -- to give fire-retardant

14 properties to that product.

15 We continue this effort today to give

16 engineered wood composites such as OSB the fire

17 safety the code requires.

18 Defeat of this proposal today would set

19 our efforts and the work of other companies back

20 considerably, restrict the opportunity to develop the

21 science, and halt the opportunity of a significant

22 move forward in fire safety and engineered wood

23 composite products used in lightweight construction.


69

1 We urge you to support the motion and thank you.


3 6, please.

4

5 MR. VERSTEEG: Good afternoon,

6 Mr. Chairman. Joe Versteeg representing myself. I'm

7 a voting member of NFPA 703 Committee as well as

8 chair of NFPA 5000 Building, Construction. I speak

9 against the motion.

10 If the motion were accepted, we would

11 revert back to the text in the code as previously

12 written and you would lose the verbage requiring the

13 product to be labeled or listed.


15 2.

16 MR. BOUCHER: Thank you, Chair. David

17 Boucher, Hoover Treated Wood Products and I'm

18 speaking against the proposal.

19 I wanted to point out that fire

20 retardant-treated wood is treated in a pressure

21 impregnation process. That process is not

22 proprietary. I think that's being confused.

23 Hundreds of treaters in the United States


70

1 use the same process and use multiple chemical

2 company manufacturers' treatments in their process.

3 It's not a proprietary process and I urge you all to

4 reject this proposal. Thank you.


6 1.

7 MS. NEWMAN: Good afternoon. My name is

8 Kathleen Newman. I'm with FireTect flame retardant

9 manufacturing and application in California. I'm in

10 favor of the NITMAM. I'm also a member of the

11 Technical Committee as well.

12 The Standards Council's responsible for

13 ensuring that the rules have been followed and that

14 the due process and fairness has been upheld.

15 I do not believe that due process and

16 fairness has been achieved in this case. The code

17 should not state specific processes but it should

18 include performance-based standards.

19 As long as there are other methods of

20 achieving the same exact goal, no industry or process

21 should be excluded. The deletion of "or other means"

22 will limit any other process from being used to

23 achieve the requirement for NFPA 703.


71

1 It is important to include the existing

2 word of "or other means" so it does not limit the

3 options for builders and authorities having

4 jurisdiction when complying with NFPA 703.

5 Many companies have invested time and

6 money into research and development to achieve the

7 ASTM extended E-84, 30-minute test.

8 These tests were done by the same

9 accredited labs and are listed by the same accredited

10 agencies that are used by the pressure-treated or

11 impregnated wood industry.

12 The removal of "or other means" is a

13 direct attempt to limit options for fire safety to

14 comply with the NFPA 703 standard for fire

15 retardant-treated wood and fire retardant coatings

16 for the building materials.

17 It is important to leave "or other means"

18 in the terminology because there are other

19 technologies that include absorbance impregnated

20 treatments that still meet the standards.

21 So for these reasons I urge the NFPA

22 voters today to vote to reinstate the words as it is

23 currently written and include "or other means" and


72

1 support the NITMAM. Thank you.


3 2.

4 MR. HOLLAND: Joe Holland, Hoover Treated

5 Wood Products. In the testimony where they're

6 supporting --

7 MR. CLARY: Are you for or

8 against?

9 MR. HOLLAND: I am against the motion.

10 In the previous testimony you heard could, should,

11 may. Working 15 years -- and I've been in this

12 industry for 30 and it hasn't happened.

13 When we submitted the change we did

14 submit proposals and comments that had different

15 approaches besides eliminating the words "or other

16 means during manufacture."

17 The committee chose overwhelmingly to

18 eliminate the words "or other means during

19 manufacture" as opposed to the other methods that we

20 were approaching in order to eliminate the abuse.

21 And that's really what we're talking

22 about here is abuse. You heard the previous speaker

23 talk about or other means, or other means, or other


73

1 means.

2 Not once did you hear "or other means

3 during manufacture" and that's where the abuse is

4 coming in.

5 There are materials out there that are

6 pretending to be fire retardant-treated wood that are

7 produced by "or other means" which the section is not

8 intended to cover.

9 The section is only intended to cover "or

10 other means during manufacture." That's where the

11 abuse is coming in.

12 Like I said, we presented different

13 options. This is the option that the committee

14 overwhelmingly chose to select.

15 When you're looking at the agenda, I

16 really don't understand why they're doing what

17 they're doing here, saying, you know, If you do what

18 I want you to do you're going to go back to this

19 language that's being shown in the agenda.

20 That's already been accepted by the

21 committee. So you haven't done anything as far as

22 changing what was done by the committee except

23 eliminating another section that was overwhelmingly


74

1 approved not only by the TC but also the Technical

2 Correlating Committee also recommended approval on

3 this as well, and that's one of the things you're

4 going to hear later on.

5 The proprietary is a red herring.

6 Pressure treating wood's been around for over a

7 hundred years.

8 We are trying to eliminate the abuse.

9 Not once did I hear any of the previous speakers who

10 were supporting the motion saying, I've got a product

11 out there that is done by "or other means during

12 manufacture." Not once did you hear that.

13 What you had heard was may, could,

14 should. When that day happens, I will gladly support

15 doing something in order to recognize that product.

16 But right now that section is being

17 abused. We're getting stuff out there that's got

18 paint applied on one side. We've got all this

19 untreated wood on all the other sides and they're

20 trying to say, I'm fire retardant-treated wood.

21 I know of no product in the United States

22 that has a listing for the 30-minute extended test

23 that's required by that section, but yet they're out


75

1 there pushing this product saying, Oh, we're fire

2 retardant-treated wood. We would urge you to not

3 support the NITMAM.


5 5.

6 DR. HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH

7 International, for NAFRA and in support. I just want

8 to point out -- You heard Joe Holland talk about no

9 one has this, if they ever come.

10 Well, at least one of the speakers said

11 they have a product like that. One of the speakers

12 said, We're imminently ready to have a product like

13 this.

14 But the point is is the code the place to

15 say, If you develop something, we're not going to

16 allow you to use it because you didn't manufacture it

17 the way we manufacture it?

18 Joe Holland talks about the cheating,

19 talks about the coating. I told you from the

20 beginning anything that meets this definition cannot

21 be fire retardant-coated wood. It cannot be a coated

22 product.

23 Coated products won't meet this. Coated


76

1 products are not acceptable in the same way that fire

2 retardant-treated wood is acceptable.

3 I am not here supporting coated products

4 on this issue. I do think coated products have a

5 place in the market and there's some areas where they

6 should be used.

7 But here, all this is doing, all this

8 change in the definition is doing, is saying, We

9 cannot accept progress, we cannot accept any other

10 way of making something. Only my way or the highway.

11 My way is the only way I can accept.

12 This is not the way we write code. This

13 is not the way we write standards here. We allow

14 people to come onto the market with whatever way they

15 make the stuff as long as it meets the requirements.

16 And the requirements are that you meet --

17 you have to meet the test with a product that's

18 impregnated, so the product has to go all the way

19 through -- sorry -- not all the way through. It has

20 to go through. Not just painted.

21 A painted product, a coated product, is

22 not fire retardant-treated wood. But fire

23 retardant-treated wood does not have to be made by a


77

1 pressure-treated process.

2 Another point that was made before is

3 that if this definition that is proposed by the

4 NITMAM is accepted, it doesn't talk about listed or

5 labeled.

6 Why does it necessarily have to be listed

7 and labeled in the definition? That's just a little

8 bit more money for the listing organization.

9 I'm all in favor of listing and, in fact,

10 the definition does talk about listed flame spread,

11 but the entire product?

12 I mean, I agree, and Section 4.5 of 703

13 already tells you that fire retardant-treated wood

14 used in 703 shall be listed and labeled, but it

15 doesn't have to be in the definition. That's another

16 point. Thank you.


18 1 please.

19

20 MR. MILLER: Thank you. My name is Tim

21 Miller with Flame Control Coatings and I support the

22 motion. And at the point of being redundant, it

23 shouldn't be about a process. It should be about


78

1 having other means to satisfy the test, and if you

2 pass the test requirements, I don't know how you can

3 be considered a cheater.

4 So it's about making the tests speak for

5 themselves and if you have something that passes the

6 required test, your product should be allowed even if

7 it doesn't meet one word or one process. Thank you.


9 2.

10


12 Wood Products, again speaking against the motion.

13 Again, we've just heard "or other means." They're

14 conveniently forgetting "during manufacture," and

15 that's where the abuse is coming in.

16 Now, the previous speaker also said he's

17 not talking about coating, but I'm telling you,

18 that's what this is about. It is about coatings.

19 We wouldn't be up here if it wasn't for

20 the abuse. And they're saying, Well, we don't tell

21 you how to do stuff. That is a red herring. That is

22 not true.

23 If I had the time, I could go through the


79

1 code and I could show you many, many, many, many

2 instances where we tell you how to do something and

3 what you need to do in order to do it. So that's

4 absolutely incorrect.

5 We urge you to support the committee.

6 They overwhelmingly went in this direction rather

7 than some of the other options that we presented to

8 them. Thank you.


10 6.

11

12 MR. VERSTEEG: Joe Versteeg representing

13 myself, member of the NFPA 703 Technical Committee.

14 To the issue of listed and labeled --

15 MR. CLARY: And are you speaking for or

16 against?

17

18 MR. VERSTEEG: I'm sorry. I'm against

19 the motion. Speaking to the issue of listed and

20 labeled again, the reference was brought up that the

21 current text has the phrase "has a listed flame

22 spread index of 25 or less," comma, "and shows no

23 evidence." There's no requirement for listing or


80

1 labeling of the second part of that test.

2 So listing and labeling in the beginning

3 covers everything within the criteria. Thank you.


5 1, please.

6 MS. NEWMAN: Hi. Kathleen Newman,

7 FireTect. I am for the NITMAM. And I just want

8 to say that anything that is done to the wood

9 after it's cut down from being a tree, no matter what

10 it is, is part of a manufacturing process. Thank

11 you.

12 MR. CLARY: And number 5. I don't care

13 which one, but one of you.


15 International for NAFRA and in support of the motion.

16 I want to point out a couple things.

17 First of all, the definition proposed

18 does include the words, "or other means during

19 manufacture." I'll repeat: "During manufacture"

20 remains in the definition. "During manufacture"

21 remains in the definition. "During manufacture"

22 remains in the definition. I support that the terms

23 "during manufacture" remain in the definition. Okay.


81

1 With regard to the issue of listing, 703

2 requires fire retardant-treated wood to be listed and

3 labeled. I support that. That is very important.

4 So please support the NITMAM. Thank you.

5 MR. CLARY: Number 5. Go ahead.

6 MR. KAMALASANAN: My name is Kutti from

7 Saudi Arabia, working for Saudi Aramco. From 19

8 years I have come later. If any code want to change

9 selected as per the requirement, I have --

10 MR. CLARY: Are you for or against the

11 motion?

12

13 MR. KAMALASANAN: I am in support of the

14 motion.

15 MR. CLARY: Thank you.

16 MR. KAMALASANAN: I have develop 2009

17 subject -- I will now already brought up the subject

18 to NFPA to consider for -- So I like to submit this

19 for an example for everybody to have a look.

20 MR. CLARY: Thank you. No. 3 please.

21 FROM THE FLOOR: Call the question.

22 MR. CLARY: We have call the question.

23 Do we have a second?


82


2 MR. CLARY: We have numerous seconds.

3 That's non-debatable. So at this time we'll -- The

4 Chair is busy. Okay.

5 Once again, we have a motion to call the

6 question which is non-debatable. All in favor of the

7 motion please signify by rasing your hands. Thank

8 you. All opposed, same sign. The motion carries.

9 At this time we go immediately to the

10 Motion Sequence 703-1 which is to accept Comment

11 703-3.

12 All in favor of the motion please signify

13 by raising your hand. Thank you. All opposed? It's

14 late in the day but you're so spread apart, so for

15 the final time for me up here, I will now call for a

16 vote using electronic voting devices.

17 You must have a red badge with the word

18 Member on the top. 1 is in favor of the motion or 2

19 to oppose the motion and reject.

20 Again, the motion on the floor is to

21 accept Comment 703-3. And at this time please record

22 your vote. Five seconds. And the balloting is now

23 closed. And the motion passes. Any further


83

1 discussion on this document? Seeing none, at this

2 time we'll move on to NFPA 101. Thank you,

3 Mr. Willse.

4 MR. WILLSE: Thank you.

5 MR. CLARY: And before we begin the next

6 document it is my extreme pleasure to introduce Dr.

7 James Milke, member of the Standards Council, who

8 will be the presiding officer during the final three

9 documents.

10 DR. MILKE: Thank you, Shane. We'll move

11 right into the next set of documents. As you've

12 heard I'm tasked with leading us through the next

13 three which will be the final three documents.

14 My goal is to work expeditiously so that

15 I can make my plane at 9 tomorrow morning.

16 (Laughter.)


18 afternoon is that of the Technical Correlating

19 Committee on Safety to Life.

20 Here to present the committee report is

21 Technical Correlating Committee Chair, William Koffel

22 of Koffel Associates, incorporated Elkridge,

23 Maryland.


84


2 blue 2011 Annual Revision Cycle ROP and ROC. Their

3 Certified Amending Motions are contained in the

4 Motions Committee report and behind me on the screen.

5 We will proceed as usual in the order of

6 the motion number presented. Mr. Koffel.

7 MR. KOFFEL: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

8 Ladies and gentlemen, the Safety to Life Technical

9 Correlating Committee is presenting one report for

10 adoption and can be found in the Report on Proposals

11 and the Report on Comments for the 2001 Annual

12 Revision Cycle.

13 The Technical Committee and the Technical

14 Correlating Committee on Safety to Life have

15 published a report consisting of a partial revision

16 of NFPA 101 Life Safety Code.


18 of the Technical Correlating Committee and the

19 Technical Committee.

20 All ballot results can be found on pages

21 101-8 to 101-224 of the Report on Proposals and pages

22 101-8 to 101-161 of the Report on Comments.

23 The presiding officer will now proceed


85

1 with the Certified Amending Motions.

2 DR. MILKE: Thank you, Mr. Koffel. In

3 the interest of trying to do something a little more

4 expeditiously, I'd like to propose the following

5 process as we move forward.

6 As you've heard, for a couple of these

7 Certified Amending Motions that come up next, the

8 first one being 101-1, that it's largely the same as

9 what we've just discussed.

10 So if there are no objections what I'd

11 like to propose as Doctor Hirschler provides a short

12 motion, to then only emphasize those items which are

13 different than we've just had.

14 So if there are no objections I'd like to

15 proceed that way and perhaps expedite the process

16 here a little bit. Good. Microphone number 5,

17 please.


19 Marcelo Hirschler, GBH International, speaking for

20 NAFRA and I hereby move to accept Comment 101-24.

21 DR. MILKE: There is a motion on the

22 floor to accept Comment 101-24. I did hear a second

23 already. I guess, Doctor Hirschler, a short comment


86

1 perhaps.

2 DR. HIRSCHLER: Yes. Very short. This is

3 almost identical before -- The only slight

4 difference, which is why 101-2 is there afterwards,

5 is that the word index is not in here.

6 So if this motion passes, then I will

7 make the subsequent motion which just adds the word

8 index. Other than that, it's the exact same thing

9 that we've discussed for the least 10 or 15 minutes.

10 Thank you.

11 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Mr. Koffel, would

12 you like to offer the committee's position?

13 MR. KOFFEL: Thank you, Mr. Chair. As

14 you can see, in the ROC on Comment 101-24, the action

15 of the TCC was to produce a definition consistent

16 between 101 and 5000.

17 We had no way of really addressing the

18 703 item at that time. However, based upon the

19 previous action we would encourage you to support

20 this comment as well as the next motion so that the

21 definitions in 101 would be the same as 703.

22 DR. MILKE: Microphone number 2.

23


87


2 Wood Products.

3 DR. HIRSCHLER: Excuse me, point of

4 order. The screen is wrong. Excuse me. Could you

5 amend that, please?

6 DR. MILKE: And would microphone number

7 2 state whether you're for or against.


9 Wood Products, speaking against the motion. It's

10 unfortunate that the membership did not understand

11 the significance of the previous change, because this

12 was acted on by three separate committees and they

13 all agreed in some fashion that the "ordinary means

14 during manufacture" was a concern and needed to be

15 removed from it.

16 So again, we would ask for you to support

17 our position and not support the NITMAM, to vote

18 against the NITMAM. Thank you.

19 DR. MILKE: Microphone number 5, are you

20 wanting -- No. Any further discussion on Motion

21 101-1 to accept Comment 101-24? Seeing none, we will

22 move to a vote.

23 Before we vote, again, the motion on the


88

1 floor is to accept Comment 101-24. All in favor of

2 the motion please raise your hand. All opposed? The

3 motion passes.

4 Let's move on to Motion 101-2, again,

5 with the expeditious mode in mind. Microphone number

6 5, please.


8 International, speaking for the North American Flame

9 Retardants Alliance, and I move to accept Comment

10 101-23.

11 DR. MILKE: There is a motion on the

12 floor to accept Comment 101-23. I heard a second.

13 Please proceed with the discussion of the motion.

14 DR. HIRSCHLER: This is identical to the

15 previous one. The only thing it does is correct an

16 editorial change. Add the word index. No other

17 change. Thank you.

18 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Mr. Koffel, the

19 committee's position?

20 MR. KOFFEL: Again, the intent of the

21 Technical Correlating Committee is consistent

22 definition. Accepting this comment and accepting

23 this motion would in fact result in definitions


89

1 consistent between 5000, if a subsequent CAM is

2 approved, 101 and 703.

3 DR. MILKE: Thank you, Mr. Koffel. We

4 can now open up debate on this motion. Is there

5 anyone at a mike? Seeing no one we'll move then on

6 to the vote.

7 The motion on the floor here is Motion

8 101-2 to accept Comment 101-23. All in favor of the

9 motion, please indicate by raising your hand. All

10 opposed? The motion passes. Move on to Motion

11 101-3. Microphone 5.

12 MR. CRIMI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My

13 name is Tony Crimi, A.C. Consulting, representing the

14 International Firestop Council and I'd like to move

15 acceptance of Comment 101-89.


17 DR. MILKE: Thank you. There's a motion

18 on the floor to accept Comment 101-89. I heard a

19 second. Mr. Crimi, would you like to discuss the --

20 MR. CRIMI: Thank you, Mr. Moderator.

21 The purpose of this proposal is to clarify and

22 prevent a misapplication or potential misapplication

23 of the Life Safety Code and the standards in relation


90

1 to the determination of fire resistance ratings for

2 building elements.

3 Fire resistance ratings for building

4 elements in the code by definition are determined in

5 accordance with the test standards NFPA 251 or ASTM

6 E119 or UL 263.

7 Those test standards do not have

8 provision for testing assemblies for true fire

9 resistance ratings that incorporate both active and

10 passive means of fire protection.

11 This issue was originally raised by some

12 authorities having jurisdiction who expressed concern

13 about the fact that they were receiving test reports

14 from manufacturers claiming by definition a fire

15 resistance rating for assemblies that incorporated

16 either a water protection system or other form of

17 suppression system in combination with building

18 elements like glazing or columns or, in some cases,

19 walls or doors.

20 What this provision does is clarify that

21 a fire resistance rating by definition cannot

22 incorporate both active and passive elements to

23 achieve the fire resistance ratings, that if you're


91

1 going to do that you really need to use the

2 alternative provisions in 104 or the performance

3 provisions in 105.

4 It's important to understand that those

5 test standards have been around in some cases for

6 almost a hundred years, and they just don't make

7 provision for that kind of assembly.

8 The difficulty that you have is that if

9 someone comes in with a test report and claims that

10 it's a fire resistance rating in accordance with the

11 standard, the burden of proof becomes on the AHJ to

12 disprove the fact that that assembly is in fact

13 tested in accordance with that standard, whereas the

14 burden of proof should really be the other way around

15 where the proponent has to indicate why their system

16 may provide equivalent or similar performance.

17 The other thing that it's important to

18 try not to muddle is the fact that in some cases we

19 have different fire resistance ratings for

20 sprinklered buildings than we do for unsprinklered

21 buildings or occupancies or locations.

22 This kind of report or this kind of

23 provision muddies the water by combining these two


92

1 things into single sort of submissions.

2 In cases where sprinklers are provided

3 in buildings, there has already been credit for that

4 and the expectation then is that whatever passive

5 fire resistance rating requirements still exist in

6 the code, they are to supplement whatever was --

7 whatever was remaining after we decided to sprinkler

8 the building. So those provisions have already been

9 taken into account.

10 The public comment on this item was

11 originally accepted by the Technical Committee at its

12 meeting but failed to achieve the necessary two-

13 thirds vote during the letter ballot by a single

14 vote. The vote was 13 to 8.

15 So we would urge you to support Comment

16 101-89 and support this motion in order to be able to

17 achieve a clarification of a potential misapplication

18 of the code. Thank you.

19 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Mr. Koffel,

20 would you like to offer the committee's position?

21 MR. KOFFEL: Mr. Chair, I sit on the

22 Technical Committee on Fire Protection Features

23 representing the Glazing Industry Code Committee.


93

1 Therefore, to avoid any potential

2 conflict of interest at this time, I am going to step

3 down and I have asked Eric Rosenbaum, chair of the

4 Fire Protection Features Technical Committee, to

5 address the issues on behalf of the Technical

6 Committee and to explain the TCC note.

7 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Mr. Rosenbaum.

8 MR. ROSENBAUM: I'm Eric Rosenbaum,

9 chairman of the Fire Protection Features Committee.

10 I intend to present the committee's opinion.

11 As originally indicated in committee

12 meeting, the committee originally accepted in

13 principle the proposed change.

14 Several concerns were identified and the

15 majority agreement was achieved at the meeting.

16 However, upon balloting a two-thirds affirmative vote

17 was not achieved. Therefore the final action was

18 changed to reject.

19 Rationale for the rejection is provided

20 on page 101-36 and 37 of the ROC. This rationale

21 included compliance with test methods or analytical

22 methods are required already.

23 The change creates possible confusion and


94

1 can result in sprinklers not being allowed even with

2 equivalency or performance.

3 Commentary was not felt to be necessary

4 and a similar commentary could be applicable to many

5 other sections in the code.

6 Section 104 equivalency adequately

7 addresses issue and is always available but not

8 highlighted in every case where it is potentially

9 applicable.

10 Code already allows use of Chapter 5 for

11 this and many other issues but code does not

12 highlight every case.

13 Technical basis was not sufficient for

14 change. Change may inhibit the use of equivalencies

15 and similar changes have been submitted in multiple

16 cycles and not passed.

17 DR. MILKE: Thank you, Mr. Rosenbaum.

18 Microphone 3.

19 MR. ZAREMBA: Tom Zaremba, Roetzell and

20 Andress, speaking in support of the motion to accept

21 the comment.

22 As was mentioned several times now, the

23 committee vote was extraordinarily close. It was two


95

1 thirds less one vote or 13 to 8. Had it been 14-7,

2 the outcome would have been entirely different.

3 The IBC has recently adopted a very

4 similar provision to this that will become a part of

5 the 2015 International Building Code.

6 And the reason for its adoption was very

7 pragmatic. As everyone here knows, standards, test

8 standards, can be altered by virtue of code

9 provisions.

10 Well, what has happened in this case and

11 that this comment is intended to address, is that

12 there has become a de facto exception to the code in

13 certain circumstances by virtue of the publication of

14 evaluation services reports that basically provide a

15 blanket equivalency between the operation in certain

16 applications of automatic suppression devices with

17 materials that are tested to ASTM E119 and secure

18 fire resistance rating.

19 This particular provision is intended to

20 override essentially that de facto exception that is

21 being utilized in the field with authorities having

22 jurisdiction where the evaluation services reports

23 are being used as, in effect, regardless of the


96

1 circumstances or regardless of the specifics of the

2 application, as a de facto exception of the code.

3 This provision, if adopted, is going to

4 restore to the authority having jurisdiction the

5 necessary code provision to enable the authority

6 having jurisdiction to review each individual

7 circumstance individually to determine whether or not

8 there is in fact equivalency between a fire

9 resistance rated product tested to E119 and the use

10 of an automatic suppression device.

11 For example, you could have curtains

12 installed after the fact, after the building goes up,

13 and perhaps those types of applications where the

14 curtain would block the sprinkler from activating and

15 cooling or wetting a specific product during a fire

16 outbreak could be avoided by restoring to the

17 authority having jurisdiction the requisite authority

18 to review the circumstances of each application on a

19 case-by-case basis.

20 And for these reasons I urge you to vote

21 in favor of accepting Comment 101-89. Thank you.

22 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Microphone

23 number 5.


97

1 MR. LATHROP: Jim Lathrop, Koffler

2 Associates, and I don't think I have a client

3 interest in this but since Bill stepped down, I guess

4 the company does so we do somewhere. I don't.

5 First of all, I do want to point out

6 something I think Eric pointed out that I really want

7 to emphasize.

8 The committee in session approved this,

9 and in fact in ballots the committee approved it as

10 far as a majority vote but not the two thirds.

11 I encourage you strongly to look at those

12 negative votes because if you look at some of them,

13 they have nothing to do with the technical issue

14 going on here.

15 In fact, one of the negative votes was

16 totally about the fact that the proposal is equating

17 three -- the ASTM, the NFPA, and the UL test methods,

18 and they're saying unless they're proven, they're

19 equal to each other.

20 Well, we all know that the last few

21 editions of both the Life Safety Code and 5000 have

22 equated those without actually saying they're equal.

23 Now, if you take that one vote away,


98

1 guess what. This passes two thirds. And in fact

2 that vote influenced at least one other vote because

3 one vote was changed based on that justification, and

4 so it would be well over two thirds.

5 I encourage you to look at the other

6 negatives because in addition to Eric when he went

7 through them, several of the other negatives weren't

8 addressing the technical issue here.

9 I ask you one major question. Think

10 about this. Why do we have fire resistance rated

11 barriers in sprinklered buildings. Why?

12 If we rely on the sprinklers a hundred

13 percent, a hundred percent, we don't need them.

14 Obviously they're there for the little -- I don't

15 want to get into the issues of 1 percent, 2 percent,

16 5 percent, but that little percent of the potential

17 for sprinkler failure.

18 If the sprinklers fail, guess what's

19 going to fail? The sprinklers that are protecting

20 that glass.

21 Now, the last thing I do want to

22 emphasize, because this has come up several times at

23 least in other areas so people might be thinking of


99

1 it, this has no effect whatsoever on the atrium

2 provisions that allow sprinklers and glass to be

3 substituted for the separation wall.

4 Because that has never been equated to a

5 fire resistance rated wall. In fact, never required

6 specialized sprinklers to do it.

7 DR. MILKE: Mr. Rosenbaum, any final

8 comments? Seeing none from Mr. Rosenbaum or anyone

9 else at a mike, we'll move on to a vote.

10 The motion on the floor is to accept

11 Comment 101-89. All in favor please raise your hand.

12 All opposed? The motion passes.

13 Moving on to Motion 101-4. I'm sorry.

14 Microphone number 3, please.

15 MR. ZAREMBA: Tom Zaremba. I am the

16 submitter of the comment and the motion and I would

17 like to withdraw the Certified Amending Motion

18 please.

19 DR. MILKE: Okay. Thank you very much.

20 Moving on then to Motion 101-5. Microphone number 3.

21 MR. CABLE: Eugene Cable, Life Safety

22 Consultants, Averill Park, New York, representing

23 myself and making a motion to accept Proposal 101-89.


100


2 on the floor to accept Proposal 101-189. Is there a

3 second?


5 DR. MILKE: Hearing a second, please

6 proceed with the discussion on the motion.

7 MR. CABLE: This proposal is an attempt

8 to head off what I believe is a growing tendency to

9 use this Section 8.6.8.2, the two-story convenience

10 opening, when the design team cannot meet the

11 mini-atrium requirement and does not want to incur

12 the expense of an atrium engineered smoke management

13 system.

14 Often now, even in health care, I am

15 seeing an open lobby type floor plan with large

16 vertical openings.

17 Without a corridor, this means we no

18 longer have the two-story vertical opening tucked

19 behind a corridor wall.

20 That vertical opening that had to be

21 separated from the protected way to two exits is no

22 longer separated.

23 Everyone's egress path with the open


101

1 floor space is now exposed to this vertical opening

2 and any fire/smoke condition developed from the floor

3 below.

4 The convenience opening was originally

5 intended to allow for a stair, often a spiral stair,

6 spoken two vertically-aligned offices. The offices

7 are bounded by a corridor wall and doors.

8 I see no problem with vertical opening

9 exposing two rooms. I do sense trouble when the same

10 vertical opening exposes large areas on both floors

11 because there's no identifiable corridor.

12 I submit that when no corridor exists, we

13 lose the ability to appropriately apply convenience

14 opening protection.

15 This situation violates a fundamental

16 requirement. Section 4.5.6. Every vertical opening

17 between floors of a building shall be suitably

18 enclosed or protected as necessary to afford

19 reasonable safety to occupants while using the means

20 of egress and to prevent the spread of fire, smoke,

21 or fumes through vertical openings from floor to

22 floor before occupants have entered exits.

23 Many of you are familiar with the FSES,


102

1 Fire Safety Evaluation System, for evaluating

2 alternative approaches to life safety.

3 Of all the 13 safety parameters, the

4 unprotected vertical opening takes the greatest

5 possible hit for life safety. A fundamentally

6 important concept is to properly protect vertical

7 openings.

8 Getting back to the proposal before us,

9 my intent is to add language which will require the

10 two-story vertical opening, called the convenience

11 opening, to be separated or protected in some way as

12 it was, with a room around it.

13 If there is no corridor to separate the

14 floor area from the opening, then some type of

15 enclosure should be provided.

16 I urge you to vote for this motion in

17 order to protect the convenience opening as

18 originally intended.

19 DR. MILKE: Okay. Welcome back,

20 Mr. Koffel. Would you like to make a statement on

21 behalf of the committee?

22 MR. KOFFEL: Yes, Mr. Chair. One of the

23 responsibilities of the Correlating Committee is to


103

1 correlate the actions of the various Technical

2 Committees that report to us.

3 When a proposal or comment comes before

4 us with a committee action to reject, there rarely is

5 a correlation action.

6 Therefore, on this motion, as well as

7 subsequent motions today, one of the things that I

8 will offer is a personal opinion as to whether I

9 believed they create a correlation problem or not.

10 In this instance I do not see any

11 correlation problem and therefore would defer to Eric

12 Rosenbaum, chair of the Technical Committee on Fire

13 Protection Features, to present the committee

14 position on this item.

15 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Mr. Rosenbaum.

16 MR. ROSENBAUM: I'm Eric Rosenbaum,

17 chair of the Fire Protection Features Committee. My

18 intent is to present the committee's opinion.

19 The committee reviewed the proposal and

20 thought that it would potentially be more appropriate

21 for this requirement to be located in specific

22 occupancy chapters if it's appropriate, and felt that

23 the current provisions of the code are adequate in


104

1 addressing the concerns of the submitter.

2 DR. MILKE: Okay. Thank you. With that

3 we can open up debate on this proposal or motion to

4 accept Proposal 101-189. Microphone number 2.

5 MR. HUEY: First I'm speaking against.

6 I'm Marvin Huey, FTC Architects, Dallas, Texas,

7 speaking on behalf of the health care section.

8 At our meeting yesterday the board and

9 its members voted not to support this motion.

10 DR. MILKE: Okay. Thank you. Any

11 further discussion on Motion 101-5? Seeing none we

12 move to a vote.

13 This motion on the floor is to accept

14 Proposal 101-189. All in favor, please raise your

15 hands? All opposed? Motion fails. The next motion

16 was submitted by an employee of Koffel Associates.

17 Mr. Koffel?

18 MR. KOFFEL: Yes. The next motion was

19 submitted by Jim Lathrop. Therefore, to avoid any

20 potential conflict of interest, at this time I'm

21 going to step down and ask Eric Rosenbaum, chair of

22 the Technical Committee on Fire Protection Features,

23 to address the issues on behalf of the committee.


105

1 DR. MILKE: So you want to move to

2 Motion 101-6. Microphone number 5.

3 MR. LATHROP: Jim Lathrop, Koffel

4 Associates, and no client interest on this. I'd like

5 to move to return a portion of the report in the form

6 of Proposal 101-193. There's a typo there. 193,

7 okay? And 101-222 and related comments 101-144c and

8 101 -- I'm sorry. I'm reading the wrong one.

9 Return a portion of the report in the

10 form of Proposal of 101-193, not 192a. There's the

11 mistake there. It's 193. And related Comment

12 101-122.

13 DR. MILKE: Okay. Hold just a minute.

14 MR. LATHROP: I was making Joe Holland's

15 motion, sorry.

16 DR. MILKE: Okay. We've been able to

17 confirm that, as he suggested, there was an error up

18 here on the board.

19 So it is 193a, 101-193a that is the

20 motion and that is to return a portion of the report

21 in the form of Proposal 101-193a and related Comment

22 101-122. So we'll get that fixed. Is there a second

23 to this?


106


2 DR. MILKE: Thank you very much. We do

3 have a second. Mr. Lathrop, please proceed with your

4 motion.

5 MR. LATHROP: I've had a lot of

6 questions about this over this week because it looks

7 really bad, but we have no choice but to approve this

8 and the reason for this is as follows.

9 What's happened is the alcohol hand gel

10 provisions that have been -- and still will be, by

11 the way, for the health care people.

12 It stays in the health care chapter,

13 stays in the ambulatory health care, it stays in

14 educational, stays in day care, because those

15 actually have their own provisions.

16 What happened was the Chapter 8 committee

17 has put this in Chapter 8 to govern the whole

18 document, but then it said "where permitted by."

19 And what the problem is this provision

20 never went to the occupancy chapters and so none of

21 the occupancy chapters took it and accepted this.

22 If this stays in the code, every

23 occupancy that did not say it's okay, it would be


107

1 prohibited in, which would mean we would not be

2 allowed to have the alcohol hand gels in this

3 building. We have them all around here because it's

4 an assembly occupancy, and assemblies didn't pick

5 this up.

6 Business occupancies -- Now, this will

7 help health care because medical office buildings

8 would not be allowed to have alcohol hand gel because

9 it says in Chapter 8 now unless accepted by the

10 occupancy chapter, and business didn't pick it up.

11 Mercantile didn't pick it up. I think

12 you've all seen it nowadays. When you go in the

13 store there's a little alcohol thing there.

14 This was an oversight. It should have

15 either gone to the occupancy chapters -- Well, no

16 matter what, it should have gone to the occupancy

17 chapters.

18 It could be easily fixed if we could just

19 change it to say "unless prohibited by," but at the

20 same time, the occupancy chapters haven't had the

21 choice to see whether they were going to prohibit it

22 or not. I can't imagine anyone would.

23 But as it stands now, if we let this go


108

1 through, this will be prohibited in every occupancy

2 except for those -- I think it's is 3 4 that

3 specifically has provisions for that. Thank you.

4 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Mr. Rosenbaum,

5 do you want to make a statement on behalf of the

6 committee?

7 MR. ROSENBAUM: Sure. On behalf of the

8 committee, the committee approved this motion based

9 on the intent that the information would be presented

10 to the occupancy chapters for review.

11 Upon review, occupancy chapters would

12 have access to language to reference. It was not the

13 intent to prohibit use of alcohol-based hand-rubs in

14 all occupancies.

15 DR. MILKE: Thank you, gentlemen. We can

16 open up debate on this Motion 101-6. Microphone 3.

17 MR. PETERKIN: Jim Peterkin, Heery

18 International, representing the health care section.

19 We agree with Jim Lathrop here. It's a good idea.

20 This section was a good idea.

21 But unfortunately it just didn't get

22 carried out the right way and the health care section

23 voted to support this motion. Thank you.


109

1 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Any further

2 discussion on Motion 101-6? Seeing none we will move

3 to a vote. The screen is now corrected.

4 Before we vote, let me restate the motion

5 and, again, for clarification, as Mr. Lathrop has

6 pointed out, the motion on the floor is to return a

7 portion of a report in the form of Proposal 101-193a

8 and related Comment 101-122.

9 All in favor of the motion, please

10 indicate by raising your hand. All opposed, same

11 sign. Motion passes. Thank you very much.

12 Move on to Motion 101-7. Microphone 5

13 please.


15 Wood Products. Move to accept a motion to return a

16 portion of the report in the form of Proposals

17 101-221 and 101-222, and the related comments of

18 101-144c and 101-145.


20 on the floor to return a portion of a report in the

21 form of Proposals 101-221 and 101-222, and related

22 Comments 101-144c and 101-145. Is there a second?

23 Is there a second?


110


2 DR. MILKE: Thank you. We do have a

3 second. Please proceed with the discussion on the

4 motion. Microphone 5.

5


7 Wood Products. We're for the motion. Part of the

8 problem is this committee in this proposal has really

9 exceeded the scope of the committee.

10 I'm going to read the scope of the

11 committee as provided in the NFPA documents. It

12 says, The Committee on Furnishings and Contents.

13 This committee shall have primary responsibility for

14 documents on limiting the impact of furnishings and

15 building contents' effect on protection of human life

16 and property from fire and other circumstances

17 capable of producing similar consequences and on the

18 emergency movement of people.

19 They're talking about assemblies in this

20 proposed change. Because they're talking about

21 assemblies, it's outside the scope of the committee.

22 This is neither a furnishing nor a content.

23 As this comment is specific to


111

1 assemblies, it should have been sent to the Building

2 Construction Technical Committee for review and

3 action.

4 Chapter 10 covers interior finishes and

5 furnishings and contents. The committee's comment

6 covers assemblies and it discusses surface burning

7 and then goes on to apply it to assemblies.

8 Why did they make the distinction?

9 There's no explanation. We're also concerned about

10 the base material. There's nothing in there that

11 talks about the base materials. It says panels.

12 Panels can be thing.

13 Part of the problem is could this be

14 applied to other materials that are already being

15 accepted into code?

16 One thing that came to my mind was

17 acoustical ceiling tile. It's made in a factory. It

18 has a fire retardant applied or mixed in with the

19 material.

20 Will acoustical ceiling tile and other

21 assemblies now need to be retested for the 30-minute

22 duration that is given in this change?

23 In addition, this is for interior finish.


112

1 That's the E-84 test. The E-84 test is a 10-minute

2 test.

3 Why does this particular product have to

4 be tested for 30 minutes? Don't know. There's no

5 explanation for that.

6 Also concerned with enforcement problems

7 and life safety issues. It says obviously the way

8 the material is -- this section is worded, that the

9 material has maintenance problems.

10 How does a building owner, operator, or

11 tenant know they have a material that must be

12 maintained? What are the maintenance issues?

13 Where's the requirement for the

14 manufacturer to provide the building owner with the

15 procedures.

16 If the building owner and operator does

17 not know, where's the requirement that mandates the

18 manufacturer supplies the maintenance procedures?

19 This change isn't needed. And like I

20 said, the committee has exceeded their

21 responsibility. It should have been referred to the

22 committee that would have responsibility for

23 assemblies. We urge you to support the motion.


113

1 Thank you.

2 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Mr. Koffel,

3 welcome back again. I guess it's an odd numbered

4 motion so you're back with us. Would you like to

5 offer the committee's position?

6 MR. KOFFEL: Mr. Chair, the Correlating

7 Committee has reviewed these items as they were

8 recommended by the committee, saw no correlation

9 issues, and therefore I would defer to Jim Lathrop, a

10 member of the Technical Committee on Furnishings and

11 Contents, to present the committee view.

12 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Mr. Lathrop.


14 Associates, and a member of the Interior Finishes

15 Committee.

16 Joe Holland said that it's outside of our

17 scope, but it says in there, In new construction

18 surfaces of walls, partitions, columns and ceilings.

19 Interior surfaces are definitely in here

20 and therefore within the scope of the Interior

21 Finishes Committee.

22 He mentioned the use of the term

23 assemblies. The original comment that this is based


114

1 on was actually on the next page and that used the

2 word panels, and we felt using assemblies would be

3 more generic and therefore not as restricted as far

4 as maybe some of you might say restraint of trade or

5 something on that idea. Therefore we used assemblies

6 to try to get it to be a little more open.

7 I do want to point out that of the

8 membership of the committee, it was 7 affirmative and

9 2 abstentions.

10 DR. MILKE: Thank you. We can open up

11 debate on the motion. Microphone 2.


13 International speaking for NAFRA and I am the

14 original commenter on that. The committee accepted

15 my comment in principle, made some changes.

16 I want to point out there's a significant

17 difference between what we're discussing now and what

18 we were discussing before. This does not address

19 fire retardant-treated wood.

20 This does not address fire

21 retardant-treated wood. This is a coated panel but

22 this is not something where someone goes on site and

23 paints or coats walls or panels in some way.


115

1 This is a product that is made at a

2 factory, manufactured in some way with the coating on

3 it, and the entire product with the coating on it

4 needs to meet not just the 10-minute E-84 but the

5 extended E-84 with all the additional requirements.

6 And the entire product must be listed and

7 labeled by a nationally-recognized testing

8 laboratory.

9 I'm not going to address whether this did

10 or did not exceed the committee's scope. That's -- I

11 think Jim Lathrop covered that and I don't know that.

12 I just want to address the technical issues.

13 And the two key points I want you to

14 remember is, number one, this is not fire

15 retardant-treated wood.

16 It's not pretending to be fire

17 retardant-treated wood. It doesn't say it's fire

18 retardant-treated wood. This is a coated panel.

19 And the reason that it requires more than

20 the normal E-84 is because normally there is no

21 permission in new construction -- and appropriately

22 so -- there's no permission in new construction to

23 just coat a panel or a wall or a ceiling or whatever


116

1 and say you've done the job, and I think that is

2 perfectly appropriate.

3 But on the other hand, what this does, it

4 is a product that is listed and labeled and

5 manufactured as a coated panel and passes not just

6 the E-84 Class A but the full E-84, 30-minute with

7 the additional provisions. It should be accepted.

8 Thank you. Please oppose this motion. Thank you.


10 number 3, please.

11 MR. DOBSON: Yes. My name is Mike

12 Dobson, Fire and Life safety consultant and I'm

13 speaking for support of the motion on the floor.

14 I also have support of the National Code

15 Service Association which is a group under the

16 Western Fire Chiefs.

17 And some of the concerns that I have is

18 the confusion that this will create for the authority

19 having jurisdiction.

20 Being a former fire marshal, we've

21 expanded this to add the new construction there. And

22 we have a myriad of terms that are not in the

23 standard and they need some clean-up I think before


117

1 this would be ready.

2 You know, we're now going to have

3 factory-applied fire retardant-coated assemblies. As

4 you heard in the discussion earlier, we're using the

5 term product.

6 Then we're also in -- lower in the

7 standard we have fire retardant coatings. And then

8 enter the discussion whether it's FRTW or not, you

9 have a lot of different terminology for a lot of

10 different products that would come under this section

11 that are not identified.

12 And I think this will create some real

13 problems for the authority having jurisdiction and

14 needs more clarification.



17 Wood Products. This shows you what we were trying to

18 accomplish in the previous actions that the

19 membership considered under 101-703.

20 The previous speaker who was speaking

21 against the motion says this is not fire

22 retardant-treated wood.

23 But when you go to 703 what they've got


118

1 in here is the definition for fire retardant-treated

2 wood. So how can you have it both ways?

3 How can you say, This is not fire

4 retardant-treated wood, and before I wasn't speaking

5 about coatings, now I am talking about coatings and

6 I'm also going to say that the coatings have to meet

7 the provision for fire retardant-treated wood.

8 How can you have it both ways? That's

9 part of the problem. That's where the abuse is

10 coming in. That's why we were trying to do what we

11 were trying to do.

12 Second part of it is I'm going to read

13 you right out of the section of the code. This is

14 101-222, the proposal, and the comment number

15 101-144c.

16 The way the section reads now, if you're

17 going to apply the coating in the field, you pass the

18 E-84 10-minute test, and you can put the coating on

19 in an existing building in the field.

20 What this is trying to do is say, Oh,

21 okay, now I'm going to put it on in a factory so I'm

22 going to change the rules here because instead of it

23 being applied in a factory I'm going to put it on --


119

1 I mean in the field, I'm going to put it on in a

2 factory. So this changes something.

3 It's still a coating. I don't know what

4 it's changing, but yet I still have to meet the

5 requirements of fire retardant-treated wood.

6 So what it says is -- This is the new

7 section. In new construction, surfaces of walls,

8 partitions, columns and ceilings shall be permitted

9 to be finished with factory-applied fire retardant-

10 coated assemblies. And that's where we get the

11 problem.

12 It doesn't speak to just the surface.

13 It's talking about assemblies. Not within the realm

14 or within the scope of the furnishings and

15 contents -- Furnishings and Contents Committee.

16 And then it goes on and it tells you how

17 you have to test it and it's got to have a flame

18 spread of 25 or less, E-84.

19 You've got to extend it for 20 minutes

20 additional and it's got to have a flame font of not

21 more than ten and a half feet.

22 That is the definition for fire

23 retardant-treated wood. How can you have it both


120

1 ways? This is an inappropriate change. And as far

2 as I could tell, there's nothing in 101 that would

3 prevent somebody from applying a coating onto a

4 material in a factory, test it for ten minutes like

5 you would a ceiling tile, acoustical ceiling tile or

6 anything like that, like you test it for ten minutes,

7 and not allow it to be used in new construction.

8 So the section's not needed. It's

9 bringing in something that does not belong in this

10 section of the code. We urge you to support the

11 motion.


13 number 2.


15 International, speaking for NAFRA against the motion.

16 Number one, if someone brings in a product that ran

17 the 10-minute test, it's in contravention with this.

18 If someone coats something on the field,

19 it's in contravention with this. This is very clear.

20 You're not allowed to do that.

21 And I agree, you should never be allowed

22 to do that. You should never be allowed to just

23 paint something new construction. No.


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1 This says very clearly what you need to

2 bring in is a panel that has already got the product

3 already made in the factory and listed and labeled to

4 be like that.

5 Number two, the issue of is this fire

6 retardant-treated wood, it is not. This meets the

7 same fire test requirement of fire retardant-treated

8 wood just like in the International Wildland Urban

9 Interface Code and in the WUI California Code,

10 plastic -- wood plastic composites are allowed to

11 meet that test -- are required to meet that test to

12 be used in certain applications and plastic lumber in

13 the WUI code and the International WIT are allowed to

14 meet that code.

15 And as of Monday the ASTM E-5 Committee

16 on Standards has approved a standard -- I think it's

17 E-2678 but I've probably got the number wrong -- that

18 is exactly that.

19 It's a standard test method where you

20 take the E-84, run it for 30 minutes, and do all the

21 other things as well.

22 That has nothing to do with fire

23 retardant-treated wood. Fire retardant-treated wood


122

1 needs to meet that, but every other material in the

2 sun could try to beat it as well, and any panel that

3 is to be allowed under this section needs to meet the

4 same test. Thank you.


6 number 5.

7 MR. KAMALASANAN: I speak in support of

8 flame and fire --

9 DR. MILKE: Please identify who you are

10 and your affiliation.

11 MR. KAMALASANAN: As per the standard --

12 DR. MILKE: Please say who you are.

13 MR. KAMALASANAN: -- fire and flame --

14 DR. MILKE: Please, hold on. Excuse me.

15 Sir, at microphone number 5, stop. Please identify

16 who you are and your affiliation.

17 MR. KAMALASANAN: I am in support.

18 DR. MILKE: Who are you? Your name.

19 MR. KAMALASANAN: My name is Kutti. I am

20 from Saudi Arabia working for Saudi Aramco.

21 DR. MILKE: Thank you very much.

22 MR. KAMALASANAN: Difference between fire

23 and flame, all material, it's flame retardant, not


123

1 fire retardant.

2 Please bear with me. If the manufacturer

3 can give the test report for a few minutes, as for

4 the material requirement, we can accept that one. I

5 got the standard with me. There's a difference

6 between flame and fire.


8 Microphone number 6.

9 MR. SONTAG: Rob Sontag, state of

10 Colorado, I call the question.

11 DR. MILKE: Not a debatable motion. I

12 heard a second. We go right to a vote of that

13 motion. All in favor of calling the question raise

14 your hand. All opposed. That passes.

15 So we go right to a vote of the motion;

16 the original motion, that is. The motion on the

17 floor is to return a portion of a report in the form

18 of Proposals 101-221 and 101-222, related Comments

19 101-144c and 101-145.


21 indicate by raising your hand. All opposed? Motion

22 fails. Move on to Motion 101-8. I see microphone

23 number 3.


124

1 MR. CABLE: Eugene Cable, Life Safety

2 consultant, Averill Park, New York, representing

3 myself. I move to accept Proposal 101-276 as

4 modified by the Technical Committee.


6 from the floor to accept as modified by TC Proposal

7 101-276. Is there a second?


9 DR. MILKE: Thank you. We go to

10 Mr. Cable. Please proceed.

11 MR. CABLE: I follow the advice of

12 Chapter 8 Committee. The proposal states, Delete

13 Section 18.3.1.2. This would prohibit the use of a

14 convenience opening, Section 8.6.8.2, within health

15 care occupancy space.

16 The three-story communicating space is

17 already prohibited. The Health Care Committee

18 initially accepted this proposal with a 20-to-1 vote.

19 The modification was to keep the section

20 as reserved rather than delete the section. So

21 initially this proposal resounded well with the

22 committee.

23 I want to note this is only for new


125

1 construction. Chapter 18 will not affect existing

2 vertical openings.

3 A story. First-time visit to a

4 450,000-square foot, six-story hospital to conduct a

5 Joint Commission Statement of Conditions Life Safety

6 Assessment.

7 I walked in the main entrance doors and

8 to a nice open lobby area. I see a rather large

9 reception booth with three desks inside, sort of like

10 a small office area, plenty of upholstered chairs and

11 benches, and the usual nice gift shop to one side.

12 Straight ahead are three elevators and,

13 uh-oh, what is this? A double-wide open stair with

14 handrail in the center -- that was good -- leading up

15 to the second floor.

16 Open to the second floor also and, again,

17 a fairly large elevator lobby up there with another

18 small gift shop.

19 Now, at the ground level three corridors

20 lead to this front lobby, all three with a double

21 door opening into the lobby but with egress required

22 through the lobby to the front door exit.

23 On the second floor three corridors also


126

1 connect to this lobby, but on the second floor there

2 are no double doors separating the corridors from

3 that lobby which is open to this open stair.

4 This is within health care occupancy.

5 There are no two-hour barriers available to separate

6 health care from this space.

7 This is not an atrium. This is not a

8 three-floor communicating space, because that's not

9 allowed in health care.

10 This is not a vertical opening piercing

11 only one floor, because there is no two-hour barrier

12 instead of doors even possible at the top or bottom

13 of this wide stair, so it must be considered a

14 convenience opening.

15 But clearly it is opened to corridors on

16 the second floor and, in my mind anyway, it's also

17 open to corridors on the first floor as well since

18 those corridors have to exit through it.

19 My point is this. This noncompliant open

20 stair in health care space has been there for eleven

21 years. It was built in 1999 and 2000.

22 Massachusetts Department of Health had no

23 problem with it. Prior experts conducting at least


127

1 three SOC's up to this point did not see a problem.

2 At least three Joint Commission surveys did not

3 identify it. And the architect of record considered

4 it okay as a convenience opening.

5 This is one example of four that I've

6 seen in the recent -- last recent three years. There

7 is serious confusion out here on what constitutes a

8 compliant convenient opening.

9 I submit that the vertical openings

10 within health care compartments should be strictly

11 limited.

12 Consider that allowing any vertical

13 opening essentially could double the smoke

14 compartment size, allowing two floors to be one smoke

15 compartment which violates the fundamental principle

16 that floors provide a basic degree of

17 compartmentation.

18 If there is anywhere to maintain tight

19 controls on compartmentation --

20 DR. MILKE: 30 seconds.

21 MR. CABLE: -- thank you -- it is within

22 hospitals and nursing homes. If a design team would

23 like a vertical opening, wonderful. I like openness,


128

1 natural light, and so on, but have it in business

2 occupancy and separate it from health care.

3 Voting for this motion will disallow all

4 vertical openings in health care except the bona fide

5 atrium and eradicate the possibility and also

6 demonstrated occurrence of seriously noncompliant --

7 DR. MILKE: Sorry. Time is up.

8 MR. CABLE: -- convenience openings.

9 DR. MILKE: Thank you for finishing.

10 Mr. Koffel, the committee's position, please.

11 MR. KOFFEL: Thank you, Mr. Chair. For

12 the members present, I would call your attention to

13 three public comments since you might wonder why the

14 motion is to accept an action that was taken by the

15 committee during the proposal period.

16 And those are Comments 101-203, 101-204

17 and 101-205, in particular Comment 101-203 in which

18 the committee reversed its position, and that is the

19 reason the maker of motion has made that motion.

20 Whereas the permitted use of convenience

21 openings is an item that's subject to the permission

22 of the occupancy chapter, I will ask David Klein,

23 chair of the Life Safety Technical Committee on


129

1 Health Care Occupancies to address the issues on

2 behalf of the committee.

3 MR. KLEIN: Thank you, Mr. Chair. David

4 Klein with the Department of Veterans Affairs, and

5 I'm the chair of the Technical Committee on Health

6 Care Occupancies for the Life Safety Code.

7 During the proposal stage the committee

8 agreed in principle with the change sought by the

9 proponent and removed the provision for convenience

10 openings in new health care occupancies.

11 One committee member voted against this

12 position. The vote on the proposal was 20 to 1.

13 During the comment stage the committee reversed its

14 position and reinstated the provisions for

15 convenience openings back to the text as currently in

16 the 2009 code.

17 The committee stated that the provisions

18 for convenience openings are adequate for use in

19 health care occupancies and should not be deleted,

20 and the vote on that was unanimous, 28 to nothing.

21 Now, my observation in listening to the

22 proponent just now is I think he's making two points.

23 Some convenience openings he feels are being designed


130

1 in a manner that is inconsistent with the intent of

2 the code. If that's the case, this is not a problem

3 with the code but a problem with designers using the

4 code inappropriately.

5 If designed correctly, convenience

6 openings are not a hazard and this design option

7 should remain available for use in health care

8 occupancies.

9 The other point that I believe the

10 proponent was making is that the requirements for

11 convenience openings should be clarified so as to not

12 permit convenience openings to include the means of

13 egress for occupants who are not within the area

14 exposed by the convenience opening. If that is the

15 case, the motion on the floor will not accomplish

16 this. Thank you.

17 DR. MILKE: Thank you, Mr. Klein. With

18 that we open up debate on the motion. As a reminder,

19 please provide your name, affiliation, and whether

20 you're speaking in support or against the motion.

21 Microphone 2 please.

22 MR. HUEY: Again, speaking against,

23 Marvin Huey, FTC Architects, Dallas, Texas speaking


131

1 on behalf of the health care section. Membership and

2 board voted yesterday to oppose the motion on the

3 floor.

4 DR. MILKE: Okay. Thank you very much.

5 Any other discussion on Motion 101-8? Seeing none,

6 we will move on to the vote then.

7 Again, the motion here is to accept as

8 modified by TC Proposal 101-276. All in favor,

9 please raise your hand. All opposed. Well, let us

10 go with the electronic on this one please, as spread

11 out as you are.

12 So again, the rules of engagement are

13 that you must have a red badge with the word Member

14 on the top to be voting using the electronic voting

15 devices.

16 Let me remind you to vote either 1 in

17 favor of the motion, that is, to accept, or 2,

18 opposed to the motion and reject.

19 The motion on the floor is, again, to

20 accept as modified TC Proposal 101-276. Please go

21 ahead and make your vote. Five seconds.

22 All right, and done. The results posted

23 here straight away. Motion fails. Perhaps I should


132

1 have been able to see that visually here. I'll put

2 my glasses on next time. So thank you. Let's move

3 on to Motion 101-9. Microphone 3.

4 MR. LARRIMER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. My

5 name is Pete Larrimer. I work for the Department of

6 Veterans Affairs.

7 I'm a member of the Health Care Committee

8 as well as a member of the Technical Correlating

9 Committee for the National Fire Alarm Code. I'd like

10 to make a motion to reject Comment 101-206.

11 DR. MILKE: There's a motion on the floor

12 to reject Comment 101-206. Is there a second?


14 DR. MILKE: Thank you very much. We do

15 have a second. Please proceed with the discussion on

16 the motion, Mr. Larrimer.

17 MR. LARRIMER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

18 The reason I'm standing here in front of you today is

19 really just one reason.

20 I would like to try to reduce nuisance

21 alarms that are going to result as a result of the

22 change that was made to the health care section.

23 With the culture change we are making a


133

1 lot of modifications in the health care section, and

2 kitchen stoves are now going to be permitted in

3 health care occupancies.

4 Not only that, they're going to be

5 permitted in health care occupancies and open to the

6 corridor. In order for that to happen, the

7 philosophy in health care was that any area open to

8 the corridor either be supervised by staff 24/7 or be

9 detected by smoke detection.

10 Never before would we allow any hazardous

11 area to be opened to the corridor, but in this case

12 we're now allowing kitchen stoves to be in a space

13 that's open to the corridor.

14 The original proposal asked for single-

15 station smoking alarms to be installed so that if

16 there were any products of combustion that were

17 created that caused a problem, the single-station

18 smoke alarms would be activated and the staff would

19 respond back to the kitchen so that they could take

20 necessary action to deal with whatever was happening

21 there.

22 During the ROC stage, that was changed by

23 a comment, Comment 101-206, to instead of single-


134

1 station smoke alarms, to system smoke detectors.

2 Installing system smoke detectors in this

3 space with these kitchen stoves now will not only

4 ring the building throughout, activate the alarms

5 throughout the building, but it will also bring the

6 fire department.

7 I think we know one thing for sure and

8 that's cooking operations will generate smoke

9 products and they will activate smoke detectors.

10 We don't want to create nuisance alarms

11 but we have set up a situation in health care that I

12 believe will do just that.

13 Supporting this motion will not reduce

14 the level of safety. It will just replace the system

15 detectors in the area closest to these kitchen stoves

16 with single-station smoke alarms. Thank you.



19 MR. KOFFEL: Thank you, Mr. Chair. This

20 motion as well as the next motion was submitted by

21 Peter Larrimer, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs,

22 and the chair of the Life Safety Technical Committee

23 on Health Care Occupancies, David Klein, is also


135

1 employed with the U.S. Department of Veterans

2 Affairs.


4 conflict of interest and whereas I am a member of the

5 Health Care Occupancies Committee, I will be

6 presenting both the perspective of the Technical

7 Correlating Committee and the Technical Committee.

8 With regard to the motion on the floor --

9 and I believe I understand the intent of the motion,

10 but I want to make sure the record is clear -- the

11 maker of the motion is asking for a comment to be

12 rejected, and that comment was to accept a proposal

13 that was rejected.

14 However, I believe the intent of the

15 maker is to only address the smoke alarm smoke

16 detector issue.

17 Relative to cooking facilities open to

18 the corridor, the requirement's there for they are

19 addressed in subsequent Comments 207 and 208 and,

20 again, I would give you or recommend you reference

21 Comment 101-208.

22 In item 11 of the committee action, not

23 of the original comment, of the committee action, the


136

1 committee initially voted to require smoke alarms at

2 these locations. Two smoke alarms.

3 Through Comment 206 the committee then

4 further revised that action to require smoke

5 detectors at those locations rather than smoke

6 alarms.

7 Comment 206 was passed by the committee

8 by a vote of 27 to 1. You can see the negative

9 comments from David Klein. Thank you.

10 DR. MILKE: Thank you, Mr. Koffel. We

11 can open up debate on the motion. This motion is to

12 reject Comment 101-206. Microphone number 5.


14 Associates, not speaking for or against but I think

15 there's an errata that we need to do to the goldenrod

16 sheet.

17 The goldenrod sheet says this is applying

18 to 18.2.3.5 and 19.2.3.5. I believe the 2 and the 3

19 are swapped. I think it should be 18.3.2.5 and

20 19.3.2.5.

21 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Let's take a

22 minute to confirm that and we appreciate you once

23 again helping -- That is a correct change.


137

1 MR. LATHROP: I just wanted to make sure

2 there was no confusion.

3 DR. MILKE: Should be 18.3.2.5 and

4 19.3.2.5. Thank you. Microphone number 3.

5 MR. GREGORY: Thank you. Skip Gregory,

6 Health Authority Consulting, speaking on behalf of

7 the health care section in favor of this motion.

8 The health care section met yesterday and

9 voted to support this motion because we feel there

10 will be a high likelihood of nuisance -- false and

11 nuisance alarms caused not by smoke from a fire but

12 by the normal cooking particulates that come from

13 cooking activity.

14 These are very small kitchens that have

15 been inserted into the code to allow for a more

16 homelike atmosphere in nursing homes and they have

17 multiple safeguards on them already.

18 By alerting the staff and attendants

19 instead of rolling the trucks, much as is permitted

20 by the smoke detectors, a high degree of safety we

21 believe is maintained in the nursing home. Thank

22 you.

23 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Microphone number


138

1 1.

2

3 MR. JAEGER: Tom Jaeger of Jaeger

4 Associates and I represent the American Health Care

5 Association and Leading Edge which represents about

6 85 percent of the nursing homes in the United States.

7 I was part of the coalition that

8 originally submitted the -- or submitted the original

9 proposals for cultural change facilities which

10 included the open kitchen to the corridors.

11 I believe that our proposal did not

12 contain smoke detectors in the kitchen because we

13 wanted to avoid nuisance alarms.

14 The committee -- First of all, I speak in

15 favor of the motion. I forgot to say that.

16 DR. MILKE: Thank you.

17 MR. JAEGER: We originally did not have

18 smoke detectors in the kitchen but the Technical

19 Committee on Health Care was clear that this proposal

20 would not go forward unless we had smoke detectors in

21 the kitchen.

22 And so the nursing home industry agree

23 that I'd rather have a smoke detector that does not


139

1 roll the fire engines than have a smoke detector that

2 does roll the fire engine. So we support the single-

3 station smoke detector in the kitchen.


5 discussion on this motion to reject Comment 101-206?

6 Seeing none, we can move to a vote.


8 reject Comment 101-206. All in favor of the motion,

9 please indicate by raising your hand. All opposed.

10 Motion passes. We move to Motion 101-10. Microphone

11 3 once again.

12 MR. LARRIMER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

13 Again, my name's Peter Larrimer with the Department

14 of Veterans Affairs. I make a motion to accept

15 Comment 101-223.


17 on the floor to accept Comment 101-223, is there a

18 second?



21 second. So please proceed with a discussion of the

22 motion.

23 MR. LARRIMER: Thank you. I'm asking to


140

1 accept Comment 223 which is on page 103 of the ROC

2 which will accept Proposal 101-292 on page 101-146 of

3 the ROP.

4 If this motion is accepted, the

5 requirement to install smoke barriers on non-health

6 care floors that are below health care floors will be

7 deleted when there is two-hour separation at the

8 floor level.

9 Presently smoke barriers are required to

10 be installed on floors that are not health care

11 occupancies if they are directly below health care

12 occupancy floors.

13 The committee states that the entire

14 floor above might be filled with smoke, creating the

15 potential to affect the entire health care occupancy

16 floor.

17 Actually, there are no requirements to

18 align smoke barriers from floor to floor, so

19 therefore if your barriers are perpendicular to each

20 other from one floor to the next, this potential

21 still exists.

22 Secondly, the space below will be

23 required to be sprinkler-protected since it falls


141

1 under Chapter 18 which requires the building to be

2 sprinkler-protected.

3 Third, there is a requirement that the

4 floor be a two-hour rated barrier. Even with some

5 pole, sprinklers along a two-hour rated barrier

6 provide adequate protection.

7 In conclusion, with sprinklers installed

8 on the floor below the health care floor along with

9 the two-hour rated floor separation, plus the fact

10 that the smoke barriers are not required to be

11 aligned from floor to floor, the requirement to

12 provide smoke barriers on the floor below a health

13 care floor provides very little if any benefit. I

14 ask you to support the motion to accept Comment

15 101-223. Thank you.



18 MR. KOFFEL: Yes. As previously noted,

19 with the maker of this motion being from the

20 Department of Veterans Affairs and the chair of the

21 committee being from the Department of Veterans

22 Affairs, I will attempt to represent both the

23 Correlating Committee and the Technical Committee on


142

1 this item.

2 I would merely -- Well, initially I would

3 start off by referring those to Proposal 101-292 --

4 and if I'm incorrect, Peter, please correct me, but

5 the proponent, the original proponent of that

6 proposal, did not tell us what to do with item 4.

7 It is my opinion that the maker of this

8 motion intends that the existing item 4 would remain

9 as existing item 5 and I just want to clarify that

10 for the record.

11 With respect to this provision, many

12 editions ago the code was interpreted to say that

13 smoke barriers had to extend throughout the building,

14 even in a mixed or multiple occupancy scenario.

15 When the text that's proposed to be

16 revised was inserted into the code, at least some

17 members of the committee perceived that to be a

18 relaxation and felt there was a need to continue the

19 smoke barrier one level below the health care

20 occupancy.

21 As Peter indicated, that was to address

22 the issue of smoke spread on that floor below and to

23 hopefully prevent smoke migration into the health


143

1 care occupancy on both sides of the smoke barrier.

2 As Peter has indicated, there's no

3 requirement that smoke barriers be vertically

4 aligned.

5 With that as background, the committee

6 voted, as you can see in the Report on Comment, to

7 reject the comment. And again, I will rest on the

8 committee's substantiation or comment with regard to

9 their action.


11 Microphone 2.


13 Associates, speaking for my self and speaking in

14 opposition.

15 I wasn't going to speak in opposition to

16 this, and unfortunately the justifications given by

17 the proponent kind of force me to speak against it.

18 First of all, there never was a

19 requirement, never was an intent, never was any

20 anticipation, that the vertical barriers would be

21 aligned.

22 The point here is I will have a two-hour

23 floor slab that probably will have some penetrations


144

1 and no guarantee that they're always properly sealed.

2 But the big issue was this will allow a

3 total wide open landscape office area, totally wide

4 open, to be sitting right underneath a health care

5 occupancy.

6 The whole point here is the smoke

7 barriers is one of our last lines of defense in case

8 there is a sprinkler failure.

9 Again, I don't want to get into the

10 percentages of sprinkler failures. We all know it's

11 very low. I'm a huge sprinkler advocate. That's not

12 the issue.

13 The issue is if we do have a sprinkler

14 failure and we have a fire in that wide open

15 landscape office building sitting right underneath

16 this health care occupancy, we've all seen the

17 results of open landscape fires in non-sprinklered

18 areas.

19 So we want to at least subdivide that

20 area so we don't get a fire exceeding 22,500 square

21 feet in area.

22 I think there's a lot of other issues

23 that were legitimate reasons for potentially


145

1 eliminating this, but based on lack of alignment and

2 sprinkler protection I think were the wrong reasons.

3 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Microphone 3.

4 MR. BUNJI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My

5 name is Makuta Bunji. I am a life safety consultant

6 speaking in support of this proposal and on my own

7 behalf.

8 In the annex to NFPA 101 regarding the

9 smoke barriers, it says in times of egress

10 arrangements should be made to transfer patient from

11 one section of the floor to another section of the

12 floor that is separated by a fire barrier or a smoke

13 barrier in such a manner that patients confined to

14 their bed can be transferred in their bed.

15 So the provision is clearly talking about

16 defend in place health care occupancy. Now, under

17 the separated provision you're providing a two-hour

18 fire floor ceiling assembly and the penetration --

19 the code are required to be firestop.

20 And as an example, when we had the

21 business occupancy under health care, the provisions

22 of business occupancy are totally different.

23 For example, the travel distance to exits


146

1 under the business occupancy are 300 feet. Under the

2 smoke barrier provision, travel distance to the door

3 of the smoke barrier is now 200.

4 Now, bringing the provision of the health

5 care and mandating into a business occupancy where

6 the character of the use is totally different -- and

7 as an example, we're right now evaluating the

8 project, seven-story building, lower level.

9 The lower level is business, non-health

10 care related. But because of this provision, you're

11 ending up having subdivision of the smoke barriers

12 from 12 to 14,000 square foot only to meet the

13 requirement of the travel distance.

14 The occupants of the lower level are

15 able-bodied. They can exit the building any time

16 they want. But, again, the provision is saying 200

17 feet and referring back to the health care provision.

18 Now, the separation requirements. Under

19 Chapter 6 we have separate occupancies. Any time

20 separated occupancy provisions are declared, the

21 character of the occupancies mandating the provision

22 to be enforced for that occupancy.

23 We are intermingling the provision from


147

1 health care into another occupancy. And also under

2 NFPA Chapter 18 it says doors in the smoke barriers

3 that are not simply health care are not required to

4 be double egress.

5 However, we have a 48-inch corridor and

6 if the smoke compartment has an area of more than

7 5,000 you're forced to provide a door which egress in

8 both direction.

9 Because under Chapter 7, any area of an

10 occupant more than 50 has to have egress in both

11 directions. So we end up having a 48-inch corridor.

12 Once we reach the smoke barrier, we have to widen it

13 and put double door in order to meet the requirement.

14 So I would urge support of the motion. Thank you.


16 3.


18 International, representing the health care section

19 and speaking in support of the motion.

20 The health care section met yesterday

21 morning and the board and membership voted, for

22 reasons Peter outlined, to support this motion.

23 Thank you.


148


2 number 2.

3 MR. HUEY: Speaking against, I'm Marvin

4 Huey, FTC Architects, Dallas, Texas, representing

5 myself. The Technical Committee report on the Report

6 on Proposal was clear. If we read it, it's clear on

7 why the proposal needs to be rejected.

8 If we have smoke compartments -- we

9 have -- Presently we have smoke compartments today on

10 the health care -- on the floor below a health care

11 occupancy.

12 If a fire develops on that floor that is

13 not health care, it will very likely be contained,

14 smoke can be contained to that floor and possibly

15 migrate to one, two, three -- cannot get the

16 number -- smoke compartments on the health care

17 floor.

18 If we remove this requirement we have the

19 potential of the entire floor, the entire health care

20 floor -- and most of the facilities I deal with have

21 10, 20, 30 smoke compartments per floor.

22 And by that, we are now contaminating or

23 smoke that's migrating potentially to the entire


149

1 floor.

2 Most of the penetrations on a floor are

3 concealed within walls; i.e. plumbing, electrical,

4 and they are not easily checked.

5 Fire dampers or duct work penetrations

6 are easily checked and that was part of the comment

7 that I heard, that it's easily checked, easily looked

8 after, but the plumbing and electrical penetrations

9 are not, and smoke could migrate through those

10 floors.

11 I've heard a number of arguments against

12 why we shouldn't do this. One, the architects are

13 missing it. I say you need to get another architect.

14 The other is you may not own that floor.

15 Well, if you don't own that floor, then the

16 provisions of you leasing that space, should have

17 been in the agreement that you maintain those smoke

18 compartment walls in the first place. Please vote

19 against this. I think it's a hazard to health care.


21 number 3.

22 MR. JELINSKE: Mark Jelinske, Cator Ruma

23 Associates, consulting engineers, and I speak for the


150

1 motion.

2 I'd like to point out some of the

3 practical application impacts of this. As currently

4 written, these smoke barrier -- This is similar to

5 the change from the previous version.

6 The words are now, Smoke barriers shall

7 not apply to any of the following, and it lists the

8 five exceptions. So in other words, if any one of

9 those five exceptions apply, a smoke barrier is not

10 required.

11 One of those is areas that do not contain

12 health care occupancies and are separated from the

13 health care occupancy by a fire barrier complying

14 with 7.2.4.3. 7.2.4.3 is essentially a horizontal

15 exit.

16 So for example, a lower floor of a

17 hospital that is, say, 10 percent health care and 90

18 percent business, would have a or could have a

19 horizontal barrier at the occupancy separation and,

20 therefore, per exception number 2, have no smoke

21 compartments.

22 The vast majority of the health care

23 occupancy would be over that uncompartmentalized


151

1 occupancy. However, if that 10 percent health care

2 went away, now suddenly we've got to compartmentalize

3 that non-health care occupancy.

4 Obviously, a way to game the system would

5 be to put a single exam room on that non-health care

6 floor. Similarly, you know, the mechanical -- an

7 exception was allowed for mechanical floor below a

8 health care occupancy to not have smoke compartments.

9 I should say an entire smoke --

10 mechanical only floor. But if the engineering

11 offices are on that floor, now we need smoke

12 compartments again.

13 So for no other reason, just to be

14 consistent with everything else, I recommend that

15 this proposal be accepted. Thank you.

16 DR. MILKE: Number 1.

17 MR. ACRE: Paul Acre, Arkansas Department

18 of Health. I speak for the proposal. I've dealt

19 with this issue many number of times on plans.

20 And the way I look at it is the smoke

21 compartment is essentially an area of refuge. The

22 facility, the floor, is all about compartmentation

23 and being able to move away from wherever a problem


152

1 might develop.

2 If you're on that floor and certainly if

3 you're afforded horizontal movement to get away from

4 a problem, that would be ideal.

5 The worst-case scenario is just the

6 vertical evacuation which would be go to the stairway

7 and if you're able to dump out into the floor below

8 to escape the problem and then you have a degree of

9 separation.

10 I understand and appreciate the comment

11 and concerns about what if there's floor penetrations

12 and problems.

13 Well, if you're evacuating vertically you

14 simply go down another floor. And if that floor is

15 problematic, then your other option would be of

16 course to escape outside, horizontally exiting to the

17 exterior of the building. Of course that's, again,

18 another worst-case scenario.

19 So your first area of refuge is your

20 corridor, your suite, the smoke compartment, and then

21 maybe if there's another smoke compartment on that

22 floor, then you evacuate to yet another smoke

23 compartment.


153

1 But vertical evacuation, of course, would

2 be the last option I would hope would be considered.

3 But if in any event you did, you hopefully have

4 multiple floors upon which to evacuate to. Thank

5 you.


7 3.

8

9 MR. ELVOVE: Mr. Chair, I'm Josh Elvove

10 with the U.S. General Services Administration and I'm

11 in favor of the motion.

12 And, yes, I am representing the U.S.

13 General Services Administration, the GSA in this

14 case, and you would say, I wonder why.

15 Well, it is possible that we can lease

16 our space to a federal entity in a floor below health

17 care. And if we do this, this could affect the

18 potential characteristics of the lease space and

19 potential of our client.

20 He would be forced to have a smoke

21 compartments in a space that we would have no idea --

22 I guess we would he know that health care is above

23 us, but really it doesn't matter to us. We're


154

1 leasing this particular space.

2 If it happens to be below health care

3 we're now forced into these provisions and I don't

4 think our designers would even know that the

5 provisions exist because we're contracting business

6 work. We're not dealing with health care. So I

7 think that would be a potential issue for the U.S.

8 General Services Administration.

9 But I make another point -- and this goes

10 -- one of the comments -- The only comment I guess

11 against this was that if you delete the barrier, the

12 smoke barrier, you have the potential of fire from

13 any portion of the floor below getting up into the

14 health care occupancy space. I guess so.

15 But the horizontal exit concept is very

16 similar. If you have a horizontal exit, you are

17 allowed to terminate that horizontal exit at a

18 two-hour floor slab provided your means of egress

19 discharged directly to the outside.

20 That creates your egress once you're into

21 the stair. However, the same scenario exists where I

22 can have a fire on the floor below since -- and that

23 fire could potentially affect all the barriers if it


155

1 goes above.

2 My horizontal exit in this sense has been

3 compromised on all the floors above that's supposed

4 to have the horizontal exit.

5 We have an inconsistency in the code here

6 and one might say health care deserves more. I'm

7 hearing the health care industry say, We're okay with

8 it.

9 So I think for those reasons alone, if

10 not what else you've heard, you should accept this

11 comment. Thank you.


13 number 2.

14

15 MR. HUEY: Speaking against, Marvin Huey,

16 FTC Architects, Dallas, Texas. The arguments about

17 the smoke compartment I have not heard yet as valid.

18 It's all about we're not sure who's going to be below

19 it.

20 That is the lease agreement. That is

21 something that you should be able to maintain. If

22 it's your property, you lease it. This is something

23 you write in your contract.


156

1 Additionally, this code is a compromise

2 to what was originally out there indicating the

3 entire building needed to be smoke compartmentalized.

4 This compromise has been in effect for

5 quite a few years and we have been operating under

6 this design provision for quite some time. This is

7 not a change.

8 It is suggested that we change to a much

9 lesser requirement without any backing at all other

10 than we don't know what's below it.

11 DR. MILKE: Mr. Koffel, I'd give you a

12 minute if you want -- There have been a bunch of

13 comments. Do you have a response?

14 MR. KOFFEL: No further comment.


16 MR. LARRIMER: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

17 Pete Larrimer, Department of Veterans Affairs,

18 against. I just want to make two point.

19 The first point I want to make is that

20 the Technical Committee on Health Care this time did

21 accept another exception to allow a mechanical

22 equipment space, only a space that handles mechanical

23 equipment, to be wide open on the floor below health


157

1 care without any barriers.

2 So there's already provision that was

3 accepted this code change cycle that allows that with

4 no barriers. That has opened up the door.

5 And my second point is that I would argue

6 any other space would probably be subdivided in some

7 way, shape, or form.

8 It may not be a one-hour rated or a

9 30-minute rated barrier duct to duct, but chances are

10 there's going to be quite a bit of

11 compartmentalization from the barriers associated

12 with whatever occupancy's down there.

13 And if there are sprinklers which would

14 be required under Chapter 18, then the provisions to

15 control the smoke within that compartment would be

16 there. So I ask you to accept this comment. Thank

17 you.



20 Associates. Again, I wasn't going to speak but

21 sometimes Peter wins and then brings up subjects that

22 I have to rebut.

23 DR. MILKE: For or against?


158

1 MR. LATHROP: Against, but like I said, I

2 told Peter I wasn't going to discuss this unless

3 certain items are brought up, and they keep coming

4 up.

5 How you can equate a mechanical floor as

6 far as fuel load to an open landscape office

7 building, I am totally at loss.

8 To try to justify this based on the fact

9 that the committee recognized subdividing mechanical

10 floors is a real problem.

11 A mechanical floor doesn't have much to

12 burn out, so please don't do this because of that. I

13 think there's been a lot of other good reasons

14 brought up.

15 But I think, you know, when you say we're

16 going to do this because we're going to allow a

17 mechanical floor to be subdivided, sorry.


19 MR. CUTTER: Steve Cutter. I'd like to

20 ask to call the question.


22 DR. MILKE: It's a non-debatable motion.

23 There's been a second so we go right to the vote to


159

1 call the question.

2 All in favor of calling the question,

3 raise your hands. All opposed. That passed. So we

4 go right to a vote of the motion.

5 The motion on the floor is to accept

6 Comment 101-223. All in favor of the motion please

7 indicate by raising your hand. All opposed?

8 Electronic let's go to. Sorry. So call

9 for a vote using the electronic devices. You must

10 have a red badge with the word Member on the top to

11 be voting.

12 Let me remind you to vote either 1 in

13 favor of the motion, accept, or 2, opposed and the

14 motion reject. And please vote now.

15 Five seconds. And closed. Thank you.

16 Okay. The motion fails. We move on to Motion

17 101-11. We go to microphone number 5, please.


19 Marcelo Hirschler, GBH International, for NAFRA. And

20 I hereby move to accept Comment 101-232 and Comment

21 101-250.

22 DR. MILKE: Thank you. There's a group

23 amending motion on the floor to accept Comment


160

1 101-232 and accept Comment 101-250. Is there a

2 second?


4 DR. MILKE: I heard a second. Please



7 What this is I thought was very simple, I hope.

8 Since 1978 the furniture industry in this country has

9 required that their furniture be resistant to

10 smoldering emission.

11 Health care occupancies are all required

12 to be sprinklered but sprinklers don't really do

13 anything to smoldering ignition.

14 Sprinklers do affect heat release, so

15 until actual fact the requirement for heat release of

16 furniture have -- are moot in the code.

17 So what this proposal says is new

18 furniture -- and remember that this has been in

19 effect since 1978 so there isn't very much furniture

20 around that is from older than 1978 -- new furniture

21 should meet the smoldering requirements for Chapter

22 10.

23 And there is a clear -- an exception here


161

1 to make sure that if patients bring their own

2 furniture they're, of course, allowed to retain that

3 furniture.

4 And it doesn't matter whether they're --

5 what type of smoke detectors. Whatever the type of

6 smoke detectors, it still is acceptable to vote for

7 the exclusion.

8 And the reason for the two comments is

9 one is in new construction and one is in existing

10 construction.

11 The committee objected to this because

12 they said facilities are well manned, but I think

13 we're really giving the wrong message to the public

14 if we're telling, in the Life Safety Code, that in

15 spite of the fact that the industry has been

16 requiring for over 30 years that all the furniture be

17 smolder resistant, it doesn't have to be smolder

18 resistant in hospitals.

19 It's really a very bad message. I hope

20 you'll support the motion. Thank you.

21 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Again, keep in

22 mind for the people here that this is a combined

23 group amending motion, Comment 101-232 that's on the


162

1 screen and also 101-250. Mr. Koffel, committee

2 statement?

3 MR. KOFFEL: Yes, thank you. Chapter 10

4 provides requirements for upholstered furniture but

5 then states where required by the occupancy chapter.

6 That's where we believe the expertise lies.

7 Therefore I would like to ask David

8 Klein, chair of the Life Safety Technical Committee

9 on Health Care Occupancies to address the issues on

10 behalf of the committee.

11 DR. MILKE: Mr. Klein.

12 MR. KLEIN: Thank you, Mr. Chair. My

13 name is David Klein, Department of Veterans Affairs,

14 chairs of the Health Care Technical Committee.

15 The committee considered the changes

16 sought by the proponents and concluded that the

17 presence of sprinklers makes additional regulations

18 unnecessary.

19 The committee pointed out that in health

20 care occupancies, staff members are available to

21 detect and react to fire, and the proponent did not

22 provide statistical evidence to indicate that

23 smoldering fires present a problem in health care


163

1 occupancies.

2 In the text of the current Life Safety

3 Code, upholstered furniture belonging to the patient

4 in non-sprinklered sleeping rooms of existing nursing

5 homes is exempted from the smoldering ignition and

6 rate of heat release requirements provided that the

7 smoke detector is installed in the patient's sleeping

8 room and the battery powered single-station smoke

9 alarm is permitted to be used.

10 The motion on the floor would eliminate

11 the permission for use of the battery powered single-

12 station smoke alarm by moving this provision from the

13 body of the code to a recommendation in the annex.

14 In addition, as mentioned by the

15 proponent, the proposal would also remove the rate

16 of heat release requirements by moving this provision

17 also from the body of the code to a recommended in

18 the annex.

19 Furthermore, the motion on the floor

20 would also expand the scope of the exemption for

21 patient-owned upholstered furniture in sleeping rooms

22 of nursing homes to patient-owned upholstered

23 furniture in sleeping rooms of health care


164

1 occupancies.

2 So the scope would be expanded from

3 nursing homes to health care occupancies. The

4 committee rejected this by a unanimous vote of 28

5 to nothing. Thank you.

6 DR. MILKE: Thank you Mr. Koffel for

7 Mr. Klein. We could open up debate on the motion at

8 this point. Microphone number 5.

9


11 International, for the American Fire Safety Council.

12 The text says that furniture from patients can be

13 brought in and it doesn't require to be used in spite

14 of the fact that virtually no patients are going to

15 bring in furniture that's not smolder resistant

16 because it's got to be over 30 years old but it's

17 allowed.

18 And the heat release requirements, which

19 I love -- and I wish they were in place -- are moot.

20 That's why I took them out, because in fact all the

21 occupancies are sprinklered. So what's the point?

22 They're sprinklered so they're not

23 allowed to have heat release -- We went through that


165

1 the last cycle. They are sprinklered so the heat

2 release requirements from Chapter 10 are moot. Thank

3 you.

4 DR. MILKE: Just to make sure, Doctor

5 Hirschler, you're for the motion?

6 DR. HIRSCHLER: I am in favor of the

7 motion. I'm sorry that I forgot to mention that.

8 DR. MILKE: Fine. Thank you. Microphone

9 number 6.

10 MR. GREGORY: Skip Gregory, Health

11 Facility Consulting speaking on behalf of the health

12 care section and speaking against the motion in favor

13 of the Technical Committee's action.

14 Health care section board and membership

15 voted yesterday to reject this motion because the

16 presence of sprinklers required by this section

17 provides an acceptable level of protection without

18 the need of additional regulation.

19 Health care is an occupancy where staff

20 is available 24/7. There's no statistical evidence

21 showing that smoldering fires have created any harm

22 in health care occupancies.

23 And certainly residents who live in


166

1 nursing homes have been bringing their own

2 furnishings into these facilities that are fully

3 sprinklered without this need of additional

4 protection with no adverse effects. Thank you.


6 discussion on Motion 101-11 to accept Comment 101-232

7 and Comment 101-250?

8 Seeing none, we will move to a vote.

9 Again, the motion on the floor is to accept Comment

10 101-232 and Comment 101-250.


12 indicate by raising your hand. All opposed? That

13 fails. Going to 101-12. And looks like we're going

14 back to microphone number 5.


16 International, speaking for NAFRA, and I hereby move

17 101-233 and 101 -- sorry -- 101 Comment 233 and 101

18 Comment 251.

19 DR. MILKE: Thank you. There's a group

20 amending motion from the floor to accept Comment

21 101-233 and 101-251. Is there a second?


23 DR. MILKE: I heard a second. Please


167



3 International, for NAFRA. This is the same as

4 before, with one exception.

5 This deals with mattresses, and

6 mattresses in the United States have been required by

7 the federal government since 1972 to be smolder

8 resistant.

9 So in order to find new mattresses that

10 are not smolder resistant, they must be illegally

11 imported into the United States so that they can be

12 placed in a hospital.

13 They have to be illegally imported

14 because if they're legally imported they're not

15 allowed to be sold here, and if they're private they

16 can bring them in.

17 So we're asking people to please

18 illegally import mattresses into hospitals so they

19 can be non-smolder resistant. This is ludicrous.

20 Please support this motion. Thank you.

21 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Mr. Koffel.

22 MR. KOFFEL: Again I will defer to David

23 Klein, chair of the Life Safety Technical Committee


168

1 on Health Care Occupancies.



4 Klein, Department of Veterans Affairs, chair of the

5 Health Care Technical Committee.

6 As mentioned by the proponents, this is

7 basically -- these are basically the same issues that

8 we discussed previously except related to mattresses

9 rather than upholstered furniture.

10 Again, the Health Care Technical

11 Committee considered the changes sought by the

12 proponents and concluded that the presence of

13 sprinklers makes additional regulations unnecessary.

14 The committee again pointed out that in

15 health care occupancies, staff members are available

16 to detect and react to fire, and the proponent did

17 not provide statistical evidence to indicate that

18 smoldering fires present a problem in health care

19 occupancies.

20 In the text of the current Life Safety

21 Code, mattresses belonging to the patient in

22 non-sprinklered sleeping rooms of existing nursing

23 homes are exempted from the smolder emission and rate


169

1 of heat release requirements provided that a smoke

2 detector is installed in the patient's sleeping room

3 and the battery operated single-station smoke alarm

4 is permitted.

5 This motion, the motion that's on the

6 floor, would eliminate the permission for use of the

7 battery powered single-station smoke alarm by moving

8 this provision from the body of the code to a

9 recommendation in the annex.

10 Again, the proposal would also remove

11 the rate of heat release requirements by moving this

12 provision from the body of the code to a

13 recommendation in the annex.

14 And again, as with the previous

15 discussion, the motion on the floor would expand the

16 scope of the exemption mentioned from sleeping rooms

17 of nursing homes to sleeping rooms of health care

18 occupancies.

19 Again, the committee rejected this by

20 unanimous vote of 28 to nothing. Thank you.

21 DR. MILKE: Any further discussion on

22 101-12? I'm sorry. Microphone number 6.



170



3 of the Technical Committee's action.

4 The health care section voted yesterday

5 to not support this comment and to support the

6 committee action. Thank you.


8 discussion now? Microphone number 5.


10 DR. MILKE: Calling the question is

11 non-debatable so we'll go right to the vote of that.

12 All in favor of calling the question raise your hand.

13 All opposed?

14 We go right to a vote of the motion then

15 and that motion is to accept Comment 101-233 and

16 101-251. All in favor of the motion, please raise

17 your hands. All opposed? That fails. We go to

18 101-13. Microphone number 5.

19 DR. HIRSCHLER: Mr. Chairman, Marcelo

20 Hirschler, GBH International, for NAFRA. And I

21 hereby move 101 -- Comment 101-236 and accept Comment

22 101-253.

23 DR. MILKE: Thank you. There is a group


171

1 amending motion on the floor to accept Comment

2 101-236 and 101-253. Is there a second?


4 DR. MILKE: I hear a second. We have

5 that. Please proceed with the discussion on the

6 motion.

7 DR. HIRSCHLER: Thank you, again.

8 Marcelo Hirschler, GBH International, for NAFRA.

9 This is a completely different issue. Forget

10 smoldering. Completely different issue.

11 What the code says is that decorations

12 have to be flame retardant. Throughout the NFPA

13 system, with the exception of a few places in 101 --

14 and they will be coming up in these motions today --

15 the word flame retardant as a requirement has been

16 removed because it's meaningless. It is completely

17 unenforceable. There's nothing that says that.

18 Usually what -- that's been replaced by

19 the phrase, Complying with the flame spread

20 requirement of NFPA 701.

21 When that was proposed here the health

22 care section decided, No, we don't want that. We

23 want more options, and the AHJ knows how to decide


172

1 whether something's flame retardant.

2 And I have a great deal of respect for

3 the AHJ but -- so I'm trying to figure out how they

4 know if something is flame retardant.

5 They can know by talking to the

6 decoration? By having a conversation with it? By

7 smelling it? By looking at it? By listening to what

8 it says? By looking at it? I don't know.

9 But I thought in spite of and beyond all

10 of that, I'd give them some additional tools beyond

11 them having this conversation with the decoration

12 since there is no standard or nothing in writing that

13 says what that flame retardant means.

14 So what this does is give them a variety

15 of options for what means increased fire performance.

16 One of the options is determined by the authority

17 having jurisdiction in whatever way they want to

18 determine that there is acceptable fire performance,

19 however they wish to do that.

20 But beyond that, if they don't want to do

21 that, they can use one of the accepted methods and

22 then the annex explains where these things come from.

23 Again, the real point here is that saying


173

1 that something is flame retardant doesn't mean

2 anything. It cannot be enforced. There is no

3 standard, no test method, nothing that says you

4 passed it and you're flame retardant. It doesn't

5 exist. Thank you.


7 you like to offer the committee position?

8 MR. KOFFEL: Yes. From the Technical

9 Correlating Committee's perspective, since the action

10 on these various comments was consistent there was

11 not a correlation issue.

12 But I would indicate that at least with

13 regard to the reference to flame retardant, if we

14 have a different action on these different motions

15 that are forthcoming, there may be a correlation

16 issue.

17 And since this is the first one, I think

18 it's appropriate before I ask David Klein to speak on

19 behalf of the Health Care Committee, to share the

20 comments of some of the other committees so that we

21 can consider those all at this time.

22 If you look at Comment 110-264 which

23 deals with detention and correctional occupancies,


174

1 that committee took exception to the use of the word

2 fire performance in lieu of flame retardant,

3 indicating that fire performance is a much broader

4 term and a term that is also not defined.

5 And we are relying on the authority

6 having jurisdiction to make a determination based

7 upon an undefined term, fire performance.

8 The committee also took exception to

9 items 1 and 4. I've already identified item 1, item

10 4. Verbage such as limited quantities that a hazard

11 to fire development are spread is minimal.

12 So I'd ask that you consider those in

13 evaluating your action on this motion as well. With

14 that said, David Klein, if you would represent the

15 views of the Technical Committee on Health Care

16 Occupancies.





21 The committee considered the change

22 sought by the proponents. The committee stated that

23 the proposed change would actually make it more


175

1 difficult for the authority having jurisdiction to

2 enforce the provision.

3 The change would expand the current

4 requirement, which is that decorations be flame

5 retardant, into a requirement that the decorations

6 must be -- I'm quoting here -- considered by the

7 authority having jurisdiction to exhibit acceptable

8 fire performance, unquote.

9 Fire performance includes many more

10 considerations than a judgment related to flame

11 retardant.

12 Fire performance considerations involve

13 all the characteristics of a material related to

14 fire. This is a significant increase on what will be

15 required of the AHJ.

16 The committee also pointed out that

17 action on another comment, 101-235, revised sub item

18 1 to address treatments with an approved fire-

19 retardant coating that is listed and labeled for

20 application to the material to which it is applied.

21 The committee rejected this unanimously

22 28 to nothing. Thank you.



176

1 we will open up debate on the motion. Please provide

2 your name and affiliation and whether you are

3 speaking in support or against the motion.

4 Microphone 5.

5 MR. KAMALASANAN: I'm in support of the

6 motion.

7 DR. MILKE: Your name and affiliation.


9 Saudi Arabia, representing Saudi Aramco from

10 Saudi Arabia.


12 MR. KAMALASANAN: Flame-retardant

13 material means it can withstand up to certain

14 temperature. Thereafter, without melting, it will

15 be -- It is already clear -- I got the notes with me.

16 So the flame-retardant material will be selected

17 based on our requirement.

18 There is no fireproof material. This

19 coat is flameproof. I am working on the plans. We

20 got already flameproof.

21 But fireproof material, it is not there.

22 Flameproof material, it can withstand up to certain

23 temperature. Thereafter without melting it will


177

1 be -- I believe I got the proof.

2 This is already clearly mentioned in the

3 material. I'm an electrical engineer but basically

4 it is with me. You can have a look.

5 DR. MILKE: Okay. Thank you. Microphone

6 number 6.




10 of the Technical Committee's action. Thank you.


12 discussion on the motion? Microphone 5.

13 DR. HIRSCHLER: Thank you. As was

14 pointed out by the Technical Committee chair --

15 DR. MILKE: I'm sorry, could you --


17 International, speaking for the motion. I apologize.

18 I'm sorry.

19 The committee accepted 101-235a which

20 says they are flame retardant, which is not defined,

21 or treated with approved flame retardant. How much?

22 That it is listed and labeled for the application.

23 How much? That's the problem. We don't know.


178

1 The problem is all this says is it's

2 going to be approved by the AHJ in some way. And

3 flame retardant is a vague term because it is the

4 name of an additive.

5 That's the organization I represent. The

6 North American Flame Retardant Alliance. These

7 members make flame retardants.

8 So is the decoration now one of the

9 products that the members -- association I represent

10 makes? The decoration suddenly becomes one of those

11 products? How is it determined?

12 I mean, the products that they make are

13 usually in either liquid or powder form or pellet

14 form. They're not a decoration usually so you can't

15 be flame retardant. You can't be.

16 So my alternate wording says they are --

17 they have a fire performance, however that is defined

18 that is acceptable to the AHJ.

19 However the AHJ decides to define it, it

20 doesn't matter. But that way, he or she can then

21 decide what acceptable is. Thank you.

22 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Gentlemen at

23 microphone 5.


179

1



4 DR. MILKE: Motion to call the question.

5 There's a second. That's non-debatable. All in

6 favor of calling the question, raise your hand. All

7 opposed? Passes.

8 We move to the motion on the floor. Now,

9 that is to accept Comments 101-236 and 101-253. All

10 in favor of the motion, please indicate by raising

11 your hand. All opposed? Motion fails. Moving on to

12 Motion 101-14.

13 DR. HIRSCHLER: My name is Marcelo

14 Hirschler, GBH International, and I'm the designated

15 representative for James Everitt.

16 I hereby move to return a portion of a

17 report and form of Proposal 101-305a and related

18 Comment 101-237.

19 DR. MILKE: Okay. Thank you. There's a

20 motion on the floor to return a portion of a report

21 in the form of a Proposal 101-305a and related

22 Comment 101-237. Is there a second?



180

1 DR. MILKE: We do have a second. Please


3 DR. HIRSCHLER: Thank you. With this

4 we're dealing now with something completely different

5 and that is we're dealing with trash receptacles.

6 The committee added a section that allows

7 the trash receptacles to be listed to an FM standard.

8 Jim Everitt shared with me indication that when you

9 test with that standard, the fire performance of

10 those trash receptacles is very poor.

11 And trash receptacles that comply with

12 that standard, it can very easily -- as soon as the

13 lid is closed, the contents stop burning in the test

14 and the materials that are very low fire performance

15 can pass the test.

16 He shared with me a video, which of

17 course I can't show you, but he shared with me a

18 video showing how there's significant difference

19 between these receptacles that meet the FM test and

20 the receptacles that meet the alternate requirements

21 that are contained in NFPA 1.

22 So by deleting all of this, returning it

23 to committee, what we're doing is allowing the


181

1 default requirement for health care occupancy for

2 very large trash receptacles to apply. Thank you.

3 DR. MILKE: Thank you. I should add for

4 the record that Doctor Hirschler is the designated

5 representative for James Everitt who submitted this

6 motion. Mr. Koffel, if you'd like to make a

7 committee statement.

8 MR. KOFFEL: Mr. Chairperson, the related

9 Comment 101-237 was submitted by Jim Lathrop of

10 Koffel Associates on behalf of a client.


12 conflict of interest, at this time I'm going to step

13 down and David Klein, chair of the Life Safety

14 Technical Committee on Health Care Occupancies, will

15 address the issues on behalf of the Technical

16 Committee.


18




22 This motion is related to Comment 101-237

23 which is based on Proposal 101-305a. The effect of


182

1 the comment and proposal as accepted by the Technical

2 Committee is to expand options available under the

3 Soiled Linen and Trash Receptacles section, which is

4 Section 7.5.7 in Chapters 18 and 19, to permit

5 containers larger than the current maximum capacity

6 of 32 gallons provided that certain provisions are

7 met, including the requirement that the containers

8 are used solely for recycling, cleaning, or for

9 patient records awaiting destruction, that the

10 containers do not exceed a capacity of 96 gallons,

11 and that the containers for combustibles are labeled

12 and listed as meeting the requirements of FM Approval

13 Standard 6921.

14 Testing, listing, and labeling is not

15 limited to FM approvals. Other labs can do this.

16 The committee felt that the provisions as approved by

17 the committee were reasonable and provided additional

18 options concerning receptacles. This action by the

19 committee was approved unanimously 28 to nothing.

20 Thank you.

21 DR. MILKE: Thank you, Mr. Klein. With

22 that we can open up debate on the motion and go to



183

1


3 International, representing the health care section.

4 I'd just wanted to first say that the health care

5 section met and discussed this item and voted --

6 membership and the board voted to support this motion

7 or, I mean, oppose this motion.

8 And then speaking also just -- if

9 anybody's been in the hospitals, they'll notice a lot

10 of these are used for medical records for disposal.

11 You'll see them all over the hospital.

12 And they're supposed to be right now in a

13 hazardous area but it's kind of a violation that's

14 happening everywhere.

15 And this will give us a way of meeting

16 that requirement without having to place them in a

17 hazardous area, and then we would be in compliance.

18 One other thing I'd also like to point

19 out, I'm a member of the NFPA 1 Committee, although

20 I'm not speaking for that committee, but this item

21 was also voted by the NFPA 1 Committee and was

22 approved but, again, I would speak in opposition to

23 this motion.


184


2 4.


4 Associates. In this case we do have a client called

5 Loss Prevention and Investigations. They came to us

6 and said, We have a problem --

7 DR. MILKE: Speaking for or against?

8 MR. LATHROP: Speaking against, sorry --

9 we have a problem in the real world, and that is

10 especially with HIPAA.

11 Everybody sees these large HIPAA

12 containers all over the facility and they're a

13 violation. And so this company came to us and said,

14 Let's let them be bigger.

15 I said, No. You're going to have to give

16 something back to get them bigger and you're going to

17 have to do something.

18 And we found this FM test and we think

19 it's pretty good. It prevents the heat from exposing

20 collaterally. It has a test above it to prevent and

21 make sure that flames coming out will not come out

22 and ignite things above it.

23 If Marcelo's -- Whoever Marcelo's


185

1 representing I don't know or whoever Jim Everitt's

2 representing I don't know, but if they have another

3 test method and they want to add that, add that test

4 method. But as it is right now, this is going to be

5 a lot better than what we have out there.



8 International, for Jim Everitt. There is a

9 significant difference between the --

10 DR. MILKE: Speaking for or --

11 DR. HIRSCHLER: Excuse me. Speaking for

12 the motion. I apologize one more time. There is a

13 clear difference between the alternate approach that

14 is being shown by NFPA 1 for large containers which

15 have to meet the ASTM E1354, the cone test, with the

16 heat release requirement.

17 And if you can see side by side as I have

18 seen, side by side the picture of what happens when

19 you apply a flame, a small flame, to something that

20 simply passed the FM test or something that's made of

21 materials that comply with the cone calorimeter, it's

22 a massive difference, no question about it.

23 So it's not a question that we're


186

1 suddenly -- that there's nothing there. Large trash

2 containers, according to NFPA 1, need to comply with

3 the cone calorimeter test and have needed to for a

4 couple of cycles.

5 With regard to comment made by the

6 Technical Committee chair that NFPA 1 accepted

7 this -- NFPA 1 extracted this from 101, which is why

8 Jim Everitt put this NITMAM in because what this

9 would do would -- if this were to go through, would

10 be to make a big exception on the requirements for

11 trash containers in NFPA 1. Thank you.



14 Associates, again speaking against the motion. The

15 test Marcelo's talking about is a test for the

16 container.

17 You've got this big huge container with

18 tons of combustibles in it. The container burning or

19 not burning is almost irrelevant. What this test

20 does is try to maintain the fire within the

21 container.


23 this motion? With that we can go to the vote.


187

1 Again, the motion on the floor is to return a portion

2 of a report in the form of a Proposal 101-305a and

3 related Comment 101-237.


5 indicate by raising your hand. All opposed? The

6 motion fails.

7 We're going to take a short break here

8 meaning five minutes. Now as opposed to the midday

9 break which was a metric ten minutes, this will be a

10 real five and we'll try to stay very close to that.

11 Five minutes please. That takes us to about twelve

12 after.

13 (Whereupon at 4:07 p.m. the meeting recessed and

14 reconvened at 4:13 p.m.)

15 DR. MILKE: All right. So we want

16 to move on to Motion 101-15 please. Microphone

17 5.

18 MR. DANIEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My

19 name is Mike Daniel, Daniel Consulting LTD. I'm

20 speaking for myself on this particular issue. I

21 would like to move acceptance of my Comment 101-239.


23 on the floor to accept Comment 101-239. Is there a


188

1 second?



4 second. Mr. Daniel, please proceed with the

5 discussion on the motion.

6 MR. DANIEL: This motion, which would

7 result in the acceptance of Proposal 101-307 on page

8 101-153 of the ROP, involves allowable locking

9 provisions in Health Care Occupancies and essentially

10 attempts to alleviate the potential application of

11 retroactive requirements on existing facilities.

12 Prior to adoption of the 2009 edition of

13 the code there were essentially three allowable means

14 to lock a door in the means of egress in a health

15 care occupancy; delayed egress, access control sensor

16 device, and based on the clinical needs of the

17 patient which essentially required some means for

18 rapid removal of occupants such as remote control of

19 locks, keying of all locks and keys carried by staff

20 at all times, or other such reliable means available

21 to the staff at all times.

22 As such, pediatric, newborn, and

23 maternity areas were being allowed, by many


189

1 authorities having jurisdiction, to be secured under

2 the clinical needs provision.

3 There were, however, some authorities

4 that were questioning whether or not these patient

5 populations actually met the clinical need intent.

6 In an effort to alleviate this concern

7 and confusion, there was an attempt in the 2009

8 edition of the code to rewrite the definition of

9 clinical need to clearly incorporate these areas.

10 The committee decided, however, to break

11 the locking provisions into two separate sections.

12 Number one, where the clinical needs -- again,

13 clinical need -- of patients required specialized

14 security measures or where patients posed a security

15 threat and, number two, where a patient's special

16 needs require specialized protective measures for

17 their safety. So clinical needs and safety.

18 While the requirement for locking for the

19 clinical needs provision remained the same in the

20 2009 edition as in previous editions for both new and

21 existing construction, additional requirements such

22 as sprinkler protection, smoke detector or remote

23 control locks and others, were added to the locking


190

1 requirements under the safety provisions.

2 The basic problem is that these

3 additional requirements were added to both the new

4 and existing chapter.

5 While this does not create a significant

6 problem for new health care occupancies given that

7 they're already required to be sprinklered

8 throughout, many existing facilities that were

9 previously being allowed to secure pediatric, infant,

10 and maternity areas of the clinical needs

11 requirements faced non-compliance without the

12 application of retroactive requirements that they

13 wanted to continue to protect these patient

14 populations.

15 While there's obviously a monetary impact

16 to such new requirements, more importantly from an

17 operational perspective, what do these facilities do

18 in the interim to protect these patients while the

19 retroactive requirements are being implemented?

20 First of all, there's definitely still an

21 argument that these populations fit the criteria for

22 clinical need.

23 As an example, in a typical health care


191

1 setting you will find infant and pediatric areas

2 intermingled. When children are able to walk, they

3 tend to wander without worry, similar to the same

4 risk as Alzheimer's patients which are clearly

5 delineated under the clinical need provision.

6 Acceptance of this motion will, however,

7 avoid having to worry about such interpretations on

8 the issue while also alleviating the application of

9 potential retroactive requirements.

10 This motion addresses existing facility

11 only as addressed in Chapter 19. It allows existing

12 facilities, existing facilities only, the option

13 under the safety provision to continue to secure

14 these areas under the same previous provisions as

15 they were allowed under the clinical need, the same

16 requirements that both new and existing facilities

17 are currently held to under the clinical need locking

18 provisions.

19 It results in no decrease in the level of

20 safety from previous provisions, provides a proven

21 safe and effective option, and avoids any significant

22 ramifications or risk resulting from the application

23 of retroactive requirements to existing facilities.


192

1 As such, I strongly urge you to support

2 this motion. Thank you, with five seconds to spare.

3 DR. MILKE: Well done. Thank you.

4 Mr. Koffel, would you like to make a statement for

5 the committee?

6 MR. KOFFEL: Yes, Mr. Chair. I'd like to

7 offer two comments before asking David Klein to speak

8 to this issue.

9 First off I would note that there are

10 some related comments and in particular Comment

11 101-238.

12 You heard some testimony with regard to

13 whether pediatric units or maternity units qualify

14 under the concept of clinical needs and I think the

15 committee has clarified that in their statement on

16 that public comment.

17 As I stated earlier, one of my tasks is

18 to review the potential correlation problems that

19 might occur as we take action on these various

20 proposals and comments.

21 And in this instance, while I can't speak

22 for the Correlating Committee, I have identified a

23 potential correlation issue within the code if this


193

1 motion is accepted.

2 There's one other occupancy that allows

3 this feature in which we will lock people behind

4 doors and rely on staff to respond for those people

5 to egress, and that is detention and correctional

6 occupancies.

7 What is proposed herein is not consistent

8 with the detention and correctional occupancy

9 provisions, however.

10 In order to do this in the detention and

11 correctional occupancies, there are three additional

12 criteria that must be met that are not posed or

13 proposed in this language.

14 One is a response time requirement for

15 staff. The second is the keys are identifiable by

16 sight and touch. And third, that there's a monthly

17 inspection of the door hardware.

18 So in that there is a potential

19 correlation issue. I can't speak as to how the TCC

20 would act on that.

21 With that I'd like to ask David Klein,

22 charge of the Life Safety Technical Committee on

23 Health Care Occupancies to address the specific


194

1 issues.


3

4 MR. KLEIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

5 David Klein, Department of Veterans Affairs, chair of

6 the Health Care Technical Committee.

7 The Health Care Occupancies chapters of

8 the Life Safety Code have long permitted the locking

9 of doors and mind of egress where the clinical needs

10 of patients require specialized security measures or

11 where patients pose a security threat.

12 In the 2009 edition of the code,

13 additional provisions were added that permit door-

14 locking where patients' special needs require

15 specialized protective measures for their safety.

16 The committee points out that special

17 needs are different than clinical needs and the

18 committee established different provisions for

19 locking based on special needs than for locking based

20 on clinical needs.

21 In the case of clinical needs, door-

22 locking is permitted if staff can readily unlock the

23 doors at all times in accordance with 19.2.2.2.6.


195

1 The requirements for locking in the case

2 of patients' special needs are more extensive as

3 pointed out by the proponent.

4 The effect of the motion on the floor

5 would be to permit the same provisions for patients'

6 special needs as for patients' clinical needs, which

7 is that door locking would be permitted if staff can

8 readily unlock doors at all times in accordance with

9 19.2.2.2.6.

10 The committee did not agree with this

11 proposed change and stood with the minimum standards

12 that the committee had previously established for

13 door-locking. On this issue the committee vote was

14 20 to 1. Thank you.

15 DR. MILKE: Thank you, Mr. Koffel and

16 Mr. Klein. We will now open up the debate on the

17 motion to accept Comment 101-239. Microphone 4.


19 Associates, speaking for myself and speaking against

20 the motion. Little quick history here.

21 First of all, the code for decades said

22 that this would be allowed for psychiatric patients,

23 and I think it was about the late 80's or so, with


196

1 the dramatic increase in Alzheimer's patients, which

2 are not psychiatric patients, and the issues

3 involved -- and I can actually go to -- didn't call

4 them ROP's and ROC's then but the old TCR's and

5 TCD's -- you can actually go back there and see where

6 it was changed to clinical need based on Alzheimer's

7 and psychiatric.

8 That being said, we all know there's

9 problems with what we have with the infirmaries and

10 the pediatric units.

11 And so over the years people started

12 using the clinical needs as, to be blunt, an excuse

13 to use these provisions.

14 The committee, recognizing this and

15 wanting to fix this, came up with a Task Group to

16 work on the provisions that came out of the 2009

17 edition of the code.

18 I want to emphasize that those

19 provisions, that Task Group, consisted of

20 representatives of ASHI, Joint Commission, DMS, and

21 the American Health Care Association.

22 With all that group together there was a

23 lot of compromise. There were some things some


197

1 people wanted more stringent, some people wanted some

2 things less stringent. That's a consensus-based

3 document.

4 And what you came up with is what you see

5 in the 2009 edition of the code. It was a

6 cooperative effort between all organizations.

7 One of the things I do want to point out,

8 if this goes through the only thing that will be

9 required is the staff carry the keys.

10 You can lock just about any patient you

11 want in the hospital with a key and padlock

12 basically, and obviously you won't be using padlocks

13 hopefully. Just a dead-bolt lock. But it's a key-

14 operated dead-bolt lock.

15 Now, based on that, one of the things you

16 want to remember, yeah, there are some new

17 requirements here but they're not new because

18 technically you shouldn't have been doing this in the

19 past.

20 But one of the things you've got to

21 remember here is the fact that there really is

22 nothing that onerous going on here.

23 First of all, yes, it does require


198

1 sprinkler protection but we've already heard, first

2 of all, all the nursing homes are going to have to be

3 sprinklered.

4 And existing health care hospitals, we've

5 already been told that around 89 percent are already

6 fully sprinklered.

7 And there is an annex note talking about

8 buildings that are non-sprinklered or partially

9 sprinklered and some of the stuff that can be done.

10 The other thing is smoke detection.

11 Well, I'm actually one of those that wanted the smoke

12 detection and the remote release, but it ended up

13 being smoke detection or remote release, so I don't

14 think that's overly onerous anyhow.

15 If that was really the concern, being

16 overly onerous for existing facilities, it would have

17 been much better to just put in existing previously

18 approved installations.

19 Because if somebody previously approved

20 it, maybe they'll continue to allow it under

21 existing. I don't think this is really going to have

22 the impact that's being told here.

23 Now, one of the things it does say is


199

1 that as long as staff carry the keys at all times.

2 And I don't like to bring up incidental anecdotal

3 incidents, but just about two months ago I was going

4 through a facility, a psychiatric facility that is

5 allowed to be key-locked with keys.

6 And the first thing we've did, we went up

7 to a key staff member on the floor and said, Okay,

8 let's do a little drill. Let's unlock the doors.

9 And they said, Oh, hold on a second.

10 I've got to go. I'll be right back. And the chief

11 engineer that I was with said, Where are you going?

12 He says, Oh, I forgot my keys in the car

13 today. I've got to go get a set of keys. So this

14 stuff does happen in the real world.

15 I think we're doing a big disservice

16 expanding this. I would not oppose it at all if the

17 proponent wanted to go with a complaint to the

18 Standards Council and say, Let's put previously

19 approved existing in there.

20 That probably wouldn't be a huge problem

21 because it would say previously approved existing.


23 3.


200

1 MS. McLAUGHLIN: Yes. Susan McLaughlin,

2 MSL Health Care Consulting speaking on behalf of the

3 health care section and speaking in favor of the

4 motion on the floor.

5 The health care section, at its meeting

6 yesterday morning, voted to support this motion.

7 Thank you very much.


9 MR. ACRE: Paul Acre, AHJ, Arkansas.

10 I'm speaking in support of the motion. Historically,

11 use of the code -- as an AHJ you don't always have

12 the perspective of the history and you have to take

13 the clinical needs of the patient base within the

14 context of the way it's presented in the code itself.

15 I have traditionally -- I have worked

16 with facilities on the application of the use of the

17 code regarding clinical needs and the use of locking

18 arrangements that required or allowed staff to be

19 responsible for egress.

20 I've never encountered an instance in

21 which it constituted locking an infant and mother in

22 their room.

23 It normally encompassed or it has always


201

1 in my experience encompassed the control of a suite

2 or wing space. And anyway, again, I'm in support of

3 this and I think it would be a disservice to go

4 backwards on this.


6 discussions on Motion 101-15 to accept Comment

7 101-239? Microphone 4.


9 Associates, one more time. I hope you all have a

10 copy of the 2009 edition of the code because you

11 really need to see what this is going to do.

12 It going to take 19.2.2.5.2. which could

13 be applied to emergency departments, it could be

14 basically applied to any department in the building,

15 and it's going to say, Instead of doing this stuff

16 that's listed there, you can just look the doors

17 period with key locks.


19 discussion? Seeing none, we will move to a floor

20 vote. Again, the motion on the floor is to accept

21 Comment 101-239. All in favor raise your hands. All

22 opposed. The motion fails.

23 We've been informed that the maker of


202

1 Motion 101-16 is not pursuing that motion, so we move

2 on. Similarly we've been informed that the maker of

3 Motion 101-17 and, while we're at it, 18, will not be

4 pursuing either of those motions.

5 So that takes us to 101-19. At the risk

6 of surprising the person for that motion, who may not

7 be near a mike yet -- Motion 101-19 please.

8 Microphone 5.

9 MR. PETERSON: My name is David Glenn

10 Peterson. I'm currently employed at the University

11 of New Hampshire, associate university architect.

12 I'm here today as designated

13 representative of Michael Anthony of the University

14 of Michigan and Ted Wagner, the University of

15 Nebraska, the original submitters of this proposal

16 sponsored by the Educational Facilities Management

17 Administrators, known as EFMA. I move to accept

18 Comment 101-277.

19 DR. MILKE: Okay. Thank you. There's a

20 motion on the floor to accept Comment 101-277. Is

21 there a second?


23 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Please proceed


203

1 with the discussion on the motion.

2 MR. PETERSON: I've been asked to say a

3 few words in support of EFMA's proposal to establish

4 new chapters under NFPA 101 to regulate new and

5 existing student resident facilities as a separate

6 occupancy type.

7 Much of the rationale for this offering

8 was laid out in the original proposal, but I would

9 like to highlight several of the key factors we feel

10 demand separate recognition of these facilities.

11 First of all, they are totally unlike the

12 type of facility they're currently lumped in with,

13 hotels.

14 Hotels and motels are self-contained

15 businesses typically providing short-term overnight

16 accommodations to responsible adults, primarily only

17 for sleeping, and do not have an intimate familiarity

18 with the building.

19 While these facilities have some typical

20 guest amenities such as restaurants and pools, the

21 buildings generally tend to be formulaic in their

22 layout and architectures with multiple stories served

23 by double loaded corridors leading to egress


204

1 stairwells at their ends.

2 Residents halls, on the other hand, are

3 run by educational institutions in support of their

4 academic missions and intended for a longer-term

5 occupancy.

6 This permits a greater familiarity with

7 the facility but is an occupancy that is primarily

8 inhabited by minors who by definition cannot be

9 relied upon to be responsible for their actions.

10 For this reason, these facilities are

11 staffed with full-time round-the-clock employees

12 trained to deal with a range of emergencies that can

13 be typically encountered.

14 Because they are dealing with minors,

15 educational institutions are seen as having in loco

16 parentis fiduciary responsibilities to act in the

17 best interest of the students, whereas at hotels the

18 staff's primary emphasis is hospitality.

19 Furthermore, today's residence halls are

20 anything but formulaic, including -- some built on my

21 own campus are a mix of apartments, suites, double

22 doubles, and single-occupant rooms.

23 These kinds of facilities make for


205

1 interesting architectural arrangements of space and

2 are complex in interior floor plans that don't always

3 have intuitively obvious exit routes.

4 Cooking facilities both in individual

5 rooms and communal kitchens, as well as food service

6 facilities, are becoming more common if not the norm.

7 A trend towards living and learning has

8 created buildings that have increasing amounts of

9 assembly space within them.

10 Classrooms, recreation halls, movie,

11 concert, and dance venues are becoming increasingly

12 common in these newer facilities.

13 I think it's worth spending a few moments

14 to elaborate on the propensities of the occupants of

15 the student residence halls and ask you to consider

16 your own experience as a student.

17 It's not hard to generate a list of

18 activities that commonly occur in resident halls that

19 constitute a danger in facilities.

20 Even in buildings where cooking or

21 dangerous appliances are prohibited, they are

22 commonly found.

23 As the code manager for a campus in


206

1 New York state, it was my responsibility to respond

2 to every alarm in the building for reoccupancy in

3 conjunction with the local fire department.

4 On more than one occasion I responded to

5 subsequent alarms caused by a fire resulting from

6 misuse of a prohibited appliance.

7 The prohibited appliance would be

8 confiscated. A second alarm would occur on the same

9 night generated by the same students who had simply

10 found another appliance nearby and started another

11 fire.

12 There is also propensity for embers and

13 open flames in such things as candles, incense, and

14 smoking, all in the presence of copious combustibles.

15 Heat-generating appliances, ignition

16 sources, and large quantities of introduced

17 combustibles of this type would rarely be found in a

18 hotel brought in by a hotel guest but are commonplace

19 in residence halls.

20 Beyond things students bring and use in

21 the room, there are behaviors, not only behaviors

22 that increase the likelihood of fires starting, but

23 behaviors that increase the likelihood of them


207

1 becoming a victim.

2 It is well-known that students are more

3 likely to experiment with drugs and alcohol, to be

4 intoxicated to the point of incapacitation.

5 They're more likely to engage in other

6 risky behaviors that increase the chances of fires

7 and other emergencies.

8 This environment also breeds complacency

9 in emergency response, making training staff an

10 important part of the overall safety plan.

11 I remember in my own experience in

12 college dorms that I was subject to frequent false

13 alarms, so much so that some of my hall mates and I

14 set up beds beneath our own beds so that we could

15 continue to sleep when the alarms went off in the

16 middle of the night.

17 Thank God I was sleeping elsewhere the

18 night an arson fire was set less than 50 feet from my

19 door.

20 Opponents may argue that dormitory fires

21 are rare and fatalities even rarer, but just because

22 headlines aren't filled daily with one campus tragedy

23 after another is not a reason to not be proactive and


208

1 make the change to the code that could improve the

2 safety of both occupancy types.

3 Across the country there are many older

4 and historic Type III and Type V construction

5 residence halls that have no sprinklers, no enclosed

6 egress stairs, inadequate fire staffing, which are

7 combustible filled and thermals waiting to happen.

8 Even with newer construction --

9 DR. MILKE: 30 seconds.

10 MR. PETERSON: -- the trend in campus

11 residence halls over the last several years has been

12 outsourced to private developers who sometimes

13 operate student housing for a lease period, generally

14 on campus property occupied by the students, referred

15 by the school, until the facility is handed over at

16 the conclusion of the lease.

17 The incentive for the private developer

18 is to build as economically as possible, often Type V

19 for construction and the minimum requirements

20 necessary. I urge support of the motion. Thank you.



23 MR. KOFFEL: Yes. Again, I will offer


209

1 comments with regard to potential conflicts that

2 could occur if this motion is accepted.

3 First off, I'd like to commend the

4 proponent. To draft new chapters in this document is

5 not necessarily easy and overall it appears to be a

6 very good effort on the part of the proponent.

7 However, with regard to the occupancy

8 classification, I did not detect any change to

9 Chapter 6 that would define this as an occupancy

10 classification.

11 With regard to 34.1.2, multiple

12 occupancies, I did not find any proposals to Chapter

13 6 that would address how to deal with the separation

14 in a separated occupancy approach.

15 In Table 34.3.2.2.2 and some other

16 locations, kitchen has been added as a hazardous

17 area. That's not typical throughout the code.

18 And the protection method is defined as

19 chemical suppression, and I'm not sure that's well

20 defined.

21 In 34.6 there's a reference to egress

22 windows. I'm almost positive -- I know what the

23 proponent is seeking, but again, that's not


210

1 necessarily well defined in the code.

2 With those correlation comments, I would

3 also ask Warren Bonisch, chair of the Life Safety

4 Technical Committee on Residential Occupancies, to

5 present the committee's view.

6 DR. MILKE: Mr. Bonisch.

7 MR. BONISCH: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

8 This is Warren Bonisch with Aon Fire Protection and

9 chair of Residential.

10 All of the committee members except one

11 reject the proposal. The basis of -- the committee

12 included universities.

13 We specifically had a follow-up call with

14 the committee about a month ago asking if there was

15 any specific concerns with changes of the current

16 document, and they all indicated that the current

17 chapters as written were fine.

18 There was numerous technical issues that

19 the committee represented in the substantiation with

20 the current proposal, and I'd like to stand with the

21 document as published.

22 DR. MILKE: Thank you. With that we can

23 open up debate on the motion. We go to microphone 4.


211

1


3 Associates. I'm speaking for myself. I'm a member

4 of the residential committee but not speaking for the

5 committee. One thing I'd like to add --

6 DR. MILKE: Are you for or against?

7 MR. LATHROP: Against. One thing I'd

8 like to add to Warren's comments is the committee

9 made a pretty good analysis of the proposed chapters

10 and he could only find about six things that were

11 different and took at least one of those -- I think

12 it was -- dealt with exit drills -- and did

13 incorporate it into the hotel and motel chapter.

14 As Mr. Koffel said, I commend the

15 submitter for the work, but we really needed to see

16 something that was different and, not only just

17 different, but addressed the hazards or the problems

18 that the proponent was talking about.

19 DR. MILKE: Any further discussion?

20 Seeing none, we'll move on to a vote on the motion.

21 Motion on the floor is to accept Comment 101-277.

22 All in favor, please raise your hands. All opposed?

23 That fails.


212

1 Moving on, we've been advised that the

2 submitter of 101-20 will not be pursuing that motion.

3 Similarly, the submitter of 101-21 will not be

4 submitting that motion.

5 Next motion NFPA 101-22 is on our agenda.

6 However, no one signed in within the proper time

7 frame to make the amending motion.

8 Therefore, in accordance with NFPA rules

9 the motion may not be considered by the assembly as a

10 Certified Amending Motion and is removed from the

11 agenda. We now move on to the next motion. That is

12 Motion 101-23.

13 DR. HIRSCHLER: Mr. Chairman, Marcelo

14 Hirschler, GBH International, for NAFRA. I would

15 like to move at the same time 101-303 and 101-307.

16 They're the same exact issue so if you

17 don't mind, let's combine the two. I move to accept

18 Comment 101-303 and 101-307. Same issue, same

19 committee.

20 DR. MILKE: Hold on please. Give us a

21 minute to caucus on this a bit to confirm it's an

22 appropriate motion.

23 DR. HIRSCHLER: We're going to waste more


213

1 time otherwise --

2 DR. MILKE: Okay. We've caucused up here

3 and decided we can treat those as a group amending

4 motion. These are two different occupancies you're

5 addressing but, nevertheless, we do need a second on

6 this.


8 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Doctor Hirschler,

9 please.

10 DR. HIRSCHLER: Thank you. This is

11 similar to what we've done before with one exception,

12 where we're dealing in the first one with the -- with

13 one occupancy and other one with storage occupancy --

14 industrial occupancy and storage occupancies.

15 Sorry. In Chapter 40 with industrial

16 occupancies, and Chapter 42 with storage occupancies,

17 which are not sprinklered.

18 So one of the key arguments that was

19 raised before -- the other issues were not taken

20 because we're dealing with sprinklered occupancies.

21 These are not sprinklered occupancies.

22 And all this asks in both cases is that

23 the smoldering requirement for upholstered furniture,


214

1 mattresses -- Those for mattresses have been required

2 in the United States for 40 years. Those for

3 upholstered furniture have been applied by all the

4 manufacturers for over 33 years. That they apply for

5 new upholstered furniture and mattresses. That's all

6 in both cases. Thank you.


8 you like to take it for the committee?

9 MR. KOFFEL: Yes, and the person who was

10 going to represent the Technical Committee on

11 Industrial Occupancies is no longer present.

12 If there is another committee member,

13 they can offer a view from the microphone but in

14 absence of that I will attempt to do that.

15 In reviewing these proposals and

16 comments, I think the committee has stated that they

17 do not believe that the introduction of upholstered

18 furniture into an industrial occupancy or warehouse

19 occupancy represents a hazard sufficient enough to

20 require the additional testing.

21 And I might offer the example of a

22 furniture warehouse. This would require the

23 furniture that's in the warehouse to be used to meet


215

1 a certain test standard where the furniture that's

2 stored in that warehouse might not meet that same

3 standard. So with that I'll return it to you

4 Mr. Chair.

5 DR. MILKE: Thank you. We can open up

6 debate on the motion. Again, the motion on the floor

7 is a group motion at this point to accept Comment

8 101-303 and 101-307.

9 Again, those are motions 101-23 and

10 101-24 for those of you keeping score. Any

11 discussion please? People at the mikes? Anything

12 further? Mike 5.


14 International, for NAFRA, in support. Find out that

15 we had not so long ago a massive fire in a storage

16 occupancy where upholstered furniture was stored.

17 That issue would have been heat release

18 but if you put new furniture in a storage occupancy,

19 why are you going to try to get furniture that

20 doesn't meet the smoldering requirement when all the

21 furniture that's sold in the United States meets it?

22 And, two, if you're going to put

23 mattresses, are you going to illegally import


216

1 mattresses that don't meet just to make sure that you

2 don't require to meet? Please. This is common

3 sense. Thank you.


5 discussion? Seeing none we move to a vote. Again,

6 this is now a group motion where we're debating or

7 considering Comment 101-303 and Comment 101-307.

8 All in favor of the motion raise your

9 hands. All opposed? Motion fails. Anything further

10 discussion on this document?

11 Hearing nothing we will move on to NFPA

12 5000. Thank you very much, Mr. Koffel, and all of

13 the committee people that have helped out here.

14 MR. KOFFEL: Thank you.

15 DR. MILKE: The next report under

16 consideration this afternoon is that of the Technical

17 Correlating Committee on Building Code.


19 the Technical Correlating Committee chair James

20 Quiter. The committee report can be found in the

21 blue 2011 Annual Revision Cycle ROP and ROC.

22 The Certified Amending Motions are

23 contained in the Motions Committee report and behind


217

1 me on the screen. We will proceed in the order of

2 the motion sequence number presented. Mr. Quiter,

3 MR. QUITER: Mr. Chair, ladies and

4 gentlemen. The Building Code Technical Correlating

5 Committee is presenting one report for adoption and

6 can be found in the Report on Proposals and Report on

7 Comments for the 2011 Annual Revision Cycle.

8 The Technical Committees and Technical

9 Correlating Committee of the building code have

10 published a report consisting of a partial revision

11 of NFPA 5000 Building Construction and Safety Code.


13 of the Technical Correlating Committee and the

14 Technical Committee.


16 5000-9 to 5000-155 of the Report on Proposals and

17 pages 5000-9 to 5000-96 of the Report on Comments.


19 with the Certified Amending Motion.

20 DR. MILKE: Thank you. We'll move on

21 with the discussion of Certified Amending Motion,

22 starting off with Motion 5000-1. We go to microphone

23 1 for a likeness of Mr. Thornberry who supplied this


218

1 motion.

2 MR. BEITEL: I'm going to get you for

3 that. Jesse Beitel, Hughes Associates. I believe

4 I'm the designated representative for Mr. Thornberry

5 and you should have the paperwork up there. And with

6 that, we will withdraw this amending motion.

7 DR. MILKE: Well, thank you very much.

8 For the record, you were the proper designated

9 representative for Mr. Thornberry and we will move on

10 then to the next motion which is 5000-2. Microphone

11 5.


13 Wood Products move to accept the motion for returning

14 -- to accept Comment 5000-45a.

15 DR. MILKE: Is there a second?


17 DR. MILKE: Thank you. We have a second.

18 Please proceed with the discussion of the motion.

19 MR. HOLLAND: There are a couple things

20 going on here. The TCC made a recommendation that

21 certain parts of 90A be extracted into 5000.

22 In addition to that, they also wanted to

23 retain a provision that has been in the 5000 building


219

1 code since it was implemented in 2002, and that

2 provision has to do with permitting the use of fire

3 retardant-treated wood in a plenum.

4 The TCC when they reviewed this said, We

5 like what you did, Technical Committee, but by

6 including the fire retardant-treated wood, that's

7 more than an extract from 5000 and you're creating a

8 conflict.

9 So what we did is -- The reason why we

10 submitted this motion to accept 45a is because based

11 on our review of the pertinent documents having to do

12 with 90A 5000 and also Standards Council decision,

13 there is no conflict.

14 Because what I did is I looked in the

15 scope for Standard 90A in section -- I believe it's

16 1.3.1 -- I could be wrong about that number because I

17 didn't write that down, but it says, This standard

18 shall apply to all systems for the movement of

19 environmental air in structures that serve the

20 following. And then there's four examples.

21 One. Spaces over 25,000 cubic feet in

22 volume. So if you're less than 25,000 cubic feet

23 this does not apply. This standard does not apply.


220

1 Two. Buildings of Type III, IV, and V

2 over three stories regardless of the volume. So if

3 you're a Type III, IV, or V building less than three

4 stories, this does not apply.

5 But the real crux of it is in number 3.

6 It says, Buildings and spaces not covered by other

7 applicable NFPA standards.

8 I think 5000 is an NFPA standard.

9 5000 has said that we want to include fire

10 retardant-treated wood, allow that in the plenums of

11 buildings and because 90A says if there's another

12 standard with a provision in it, then that's okay.

13 So there is no conflict.

14 It also cited 101. 101 doesn't have any

15 provisions in it about that, so there's no conflict

16 there either.

17 So it was -- The TCC had some bad

18 information about creating a conflict, because I just

19 read number 3 in the scope of the standard that says

20 if there's other NFPA standards, then that's fine,

21 90A does not have to apply.

22 The second thing has to do with I sit on

23 the committee and we've been told that, Oh, the


221

1 Standards Council has made a decision. So I asked

2 for a copy of the Standards Council decision.

3 And what the Standards Council decision

4 says is that for the National Electrical Code and for

5 cables and those sort of things, that 90 A controls.

6 Doesn't say anything about the building code.

7 So again, the TCC was given erroneous

8 information about, one, the Standards Council

9 decision and, two, the applicability of 90A.

10 So what we're asking is that Comment

11 5000a as passed by the unanimous, I must say -- by

12 the Technical Committee be approved. Thank you.

13 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Mr. Quiter, would


15 MR. QUITER: Yes. Normally I would defer

16 directly to the committee chairman but as Mr. Holland

17 rightly points out, the change was made by the

18 Technical Correlating Committee.

19 He is right also about the reason, and

20 that is we view there is a conflict with NFPA 90A and

21 that is the reason that the change was made.

22 With that I would like to defer to Joe

23 Versteeg who is chairman of the Technical Committee


222

1 on Building Construction.

2 DR. MILKE: Mr. Versteeg.

3 MR. VERSTEEG: Good afternoon. Joe

4 Versteeg, chairman of the Building Construction

5 Committee. That's essentially correct.

6 The history of this was that the section

7 dealing with plenums was -- the choice was either to

8 just simply refer to 90A or to extrapolate the text

9 from 90A.

10 The committee chose to extrapolate the

11 text from 90A and also leave in the provisions for

12 fire retardant-treated wood. It was the TCC that

13 changed it.

14 The substantiation of the committee was

15 that the committee had not received any supporting

16 documentation that fire retardant-treated wood in a

17 plenum had been a problem, and that's why the

18 committee kept that position.



21 International, for NAFRA and in opposition to the

22 motion.

23 It has been pointed out here that the


223

1 Standards Council made a decision years ago that all

2 materials that go into plenums are regulated by 90A,

3 and that both the National Electrical Code, NFPA 70,

4 the Life Safety Code, NFPA 101, and the Building

5 Code, NFPA 5000, should just simply refer to 90A.

6 And at the time, I wrote to Standards

7 Council I said that was a mistake. However, my

8 opinion was not taken.

9 Now, we have to accept that. We can't

10 just keep going back from jurisdiction. I'm a member

11 of the 90A Committee and we are working very

12 carefully every cycle on the issues and what is

13 acceptable and what's not acceptable for 90A.

14 You heard that -- some of that discussion

15 before. This is a moot point. The assembly should

16 not stand here and overturn Standards Council

17 decisions that we made years ago. Thank you. I urge

18 you to reject the motion. Thank you.


20 MR. KOFFEL: Bill Koffel, Koffel

21 Associates, speaking for myself, in opposition to the

22 motion.

23 Marcelo just addressed a conflict between


224

1 90A and 5000 if you accept this motion, so I'll

2 address the conflicts between 101 and 5000.

3 NFPA 101 references NFPA 90A directly.

4 NFPA 90A does not allow fire retardant-treated wood

5 to be exposed to the air flow in a plenum.

6 If you accept this motion, NFPA 5000 will

7 allow fire retardant-treated wood to be exposed to

8 the air flow in a plenums.

9 Therefore you will have a permitted use

10 in the NFPA 5000 for something that NFPA 101 does not

11 permit. Thank you.

12 DR. MILKE: Microphone 5.


14 Wood, speaking in support of the motion. I want to

15 read to you -- I guess the first thing I want to do

16 is read to you the Standards Council decision.

17 Like I said, when I got this I said I'd

18 like to see a copy of the decision. So this is

19 actually what it says:

20 Jurisdiction over combustibles in

21 plenums. As the Council has indicated earlier in

22 this decision, the Technical Committee on Air

23 Conditioning rather than the NEC project has for many


225

1 years and should continue to have primary

2 jurisdiction over air distribution systems including

3 the subject of combustibles such as cables and ducts,

4 plenums and other handling spaces.

5 So apparently there was something going

6 on between the NEC and the 90A and I'm not privy to

7 that information, but this only applies to the NEC

8 project, so what it says is the National Electric

9 Code has to defer to 90A.

10 I read you the scope that says if other

11 standards have provisions in them, they apply.

12 There's no conflict. I don't know where these people

13 are coming from with the conflict.

14 The standard clearly says there's no

15 conflict. If other NFPA standards have provisions in

16 them, then that's what you use. You use the other

17 provision. There's no conflict.

18 I also -- This Standards Council -- I

19 should tell you, the decision was made in July of

20 2005.

21 If this is to be -- Let's say that we

22 don't prevail and you do decide not to accept the

23 motion. If you do that, 5000 does not have any


226

1 provisions in it that doesn't say, you know, if you

2 go back in and remodel a building, that it's not

3 retroactive.

4 So you've got all these buildings with

5 fire retardant-treated wood that have been allowed

6 since 2002 that now won't be able to comply with the

7 building code.

8 So now we've got nonconforming buildings.

9 We're making headaches for the AHJ, what are they

10 going to do.

11 So it doesn't make sense to take

12 something away without some kind of juris -- I mean

13 some kind of documentation that says we've got a

14 problem here other than, Oh, there's a conflict.

15 And as I've already explained to you and

16 demonstrated to you, that the standard says there is

17 no conflict. So we would ask for you to support the

18 motion. Thank you.

19 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Seeing no one

20 else at a mike, it appears we're ready for a vote so

21 we'll go ahead and vote on the motion on the floor

22 which is to accept Comment 5000-45a.

23 All in favor of the motion raise their


227

1 hands. All opposed? Motion fails. Moving to

2 5000-3. Microphone 3.


4 Wood Products. This is essentially doing the same

5 thing. What we're saying is we want to return the

6 report back to -- return a -- Oh, I guess I have to

7 make a motion first. I'm sorry.

8 Move that we accept motion to return a

9 portion of the report in the for of proposal 5000-80a

10 and related Comment 5000-45a.

11 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Is there a

12 second?


14 DR. MILKE: Okay. Thank you. We have a

15 second. Please proceed with the discussion on the

16 motion, Mr. Holland.

17 MR. HOLLAND: Essentially the same thing

18 but instead of adopting 45a basically what we're

19 saying is leave what's in the building code now, do

20 not accept the changes that have -- that were

21 rejected or approved by the TCC but amended by the --

22 excuse me -- by the TC but amended by the TCC.

23 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Mr. Quiter?


228

1 MR. QUITER: On this one I'll defer

2 directly to Joe Versteeg, chairman of the Technical

3 Committee on Building Construction.


5 MR. VERSTEEG: Good afternoon. Joe

6 Versteeg. This essentially would revert back to the

7 2009 wording within the code which leaves in fire

8 retardant-treated wood that is exposed to the

9 plenums.


11 we can open up debate on the motion. Microphone 2.


13 International, for NAFRA, and against the motion.

14 This is the exact same effect as the previous action.

15 It's doing it a different way but, again, it would

16 create the conflict with NFPA 90A. Please oppose

17 this motion. Thank.


19 Microphone 5.

20 MR. HOLLAND: I have a brief comment but

21 I'm waiting for it to load here. The point I'm going

22 to try to make here is that combustibles are allowed

23 in --


229

1 DR. MILKE: I'm sorry, excuse me --

2 MR. HOLLAND: I'm sorry. Joe Holland,

3 Hoover Treated Wood speaking for the motion. The

4 point is that combustibles are currently allowed

5 under 90A to be used in the plenums, and that you can

6 have cables and all those sort of things that are

7 combustible.

8 It also allows -- and I'm trying to get

9 down to that section here. There's an inconsistency

10 in that it does allow material used in the ceiling to

11 be exposed to the air flow when the flame spread is

12 25 or less and the smoke developed is 50 or less.

13 Fire retardant-treated wood meets both of

14 those requirements. It has a flame spread of less

15 than 25 and smoke developed of less than 50.

16 So you're really not increasing anything

17 because the whole ceiling can be combustible if it

18 meets that requirement. We hope that you would

19 support the motion.


21 discussion? Microphone 2.


23 International, for NAFRA. Just quickly --


230

1 DR. MILKE: For or against?

2 DR. HIRSCHLER: Against the motion. The

3 way the requirement is worded in the existing 5000,

4 FRTW would be permitted to be the material of

5 construction of the plenum.

6 Material of construction of the plenum is

7 not allowed to be a known combustible, a limited

8 combustible. FRTW does not meet those requirements.

9 Material exposed to the air flow in the

10 plenum can meet other requirements but material of

11 construction of the plenum has to be non-combustible

12 or limited combustible and FRTW does not do that.

13 Thank you.


15 this Motion 5000-3? Seeing none we'll move to the

16 vote.


18 return a portion of a report in the form of a

19 Proposal 5000-80a and related Comment 5000-45a.

20 All in favor raise your hands? All

21 opposed? Motion fails. We move on to Motion 5000-4.

22 Microphone 5.

23 MR. PAULS: My name is Jake Pauls. I'm a


231

1 sole proprietor, independent consulting, Building Use

2 and Safety. I'm a member of several NFPA TC's and

3 TCC's, serving mostly as an unpaid consumer

4 representative on behalf of the American Public

5 Health Association APHA.

6 I'm formally designated on behalf of

7 comment submitter Eleanor Smith to make the motion

8 for your acceptance of Comment 5000-137 which I now

9 make and on which I will speak in support.



12 to accept 5000-137. I did hear a second. Please

13 proceed, Mr. Pauls.

14 MR. PAULS: Yes. Your approval of this

15 motion has the effect of recommending that the

16 Standards Council accept my Proposal 5000-164.

17 This proposal introduces a requirement at

18 NFPA 5000 of scoping Section 1005, not 1006 as

19 printed in the goldenrod handout, and that's within

20 the standard on Accessible and Usable Buildings and

21 Facilities designated as ICC/ANSI A117.1, 2009

22 edition. So again, the section is 1005, not 6.

23 Quoting from this standard, quote,


232

1 Section 1005 of the standard provides criteria for

2 minimal accessibility features for one- and two-

3 family dwelling units and townhouses which are not

4 covered by the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban

5 Development, HUD, fair housing accessibility

6 guidelines.

7 The largest reason for being before you

8 today is the delayed publication of the standard

9 which we now have.

10 So it was the delayed publication of

11 standard which is being scoped by Proposal 5000-164.

12 The ICC did not release the printed standard dated

13 2009 to the A117 committee members until February

14 2011.

15 During that time between the committee's

16 final deliberations on the standard and availability

17 of the printed standard, many months passed.

18 This included the period during which two

19 responsible NFPA TC's were working on the Report on

20 Comments for NFPA 5000.

21 But early in January 2011, months after

22 ANSI approval, the Building Code TCC did not have the

23 printed standard to review.


233

1 Thus, its reason for rejecting comments

2 supporting Proposal 5000-164 was, and I quote in

3 part, The TCC, quote, directs the final action on

4 this comment to be changed to reject. See action on

5 Comment 5000-137, end quote.

6 Now, dealing only with the issues

7 associated with the delayed publication, the TCC

8 concluded, quote, Until such time that the final

9 version is available, the TCC cannot support

10 acceptance of the comment. So it was basically a

11 process saying that the standard was delayed by ICC.

12 With the standard now available widely

13 for some months and with the standard's text

14 previously available to those testifying in

15 opposition today, if anyone does, they were also

16 members of the A117.1 -- sorry -- A117 Committee, so

17 they had the text.

18 But we're in a position today to accept

19 the motion on the floor with the standard published

20 and widely available.

21 Most important today, we must note that

22 two NFPA 5000 Technical Committees have central roles

23 in this consideration.


234

1 The most experienced and relevant

2 committee is the Building Systems TC responsible for

3 scoping accessibility generally and NFPA 5000 Chapter

4 12.

5 That Technical Committee not only knew

6 the topic better generally, its members all did the

7 most thorough review of the original proposal and of

8 the comments in the context of their broad knowledge

9 of accessibility in NFPA 5000.

10 The Building Systems TC voted unanimously

11 at both the ROP stage and the ROC stage effectively

12 in support of the motion on the floor today.

13 Turning now to the Residential Occupancy

14 TC, I'm a member of that TC. I disagree strongly

15 with both the approach taken by the TC on this and

16 some prior issues where TC has taken an initial

17 position adverse to the published policies of the

18 APHA.

19 In the past, the TC's initial and in some

20 cases repeated rejections included mainstreaming of

21 the stairway safety requirements for -- that are long

22 adopted in NFPA standards for all buildings other

23 than homes.


235

1 Also, in my view, for too long too many

2 members of the TC opposed home sprinklers before they

3 were required in 101 and 5000 several years ago.

4 For over a decade APHA has had public

5 policies encourage and model codes require better

6 stairways and home sprinklers, and now APHA also has

7 a public policy supportive of the motion before us

8 today.

9 From the formal record you might also

10 note, as I did in the residential TC meetings, that

11 those opposed to acceptance of the motion today are

12 on the same side as and with opposing arguments

13 provided largely the National Association of Home

14 Builders.

15 NAHB has fairly consistently taken

16 adverse positions to APHA's public policies both in

17 NFPA and ICC.

18 In summary, the issues today come down to

19 this. First, we should now move beyond the late

20 distribution of the standard. We have strong support

21 from the committee responsible for scoping.

22 Thirdly, we have the formal urging of the

23 world's oldest, largest organization of public health


236

1 officials.

2 The goals are, incidentally, both safety

3 and usability. The most challenging aspect is the

4 step-free entrance which is a great safety issue.

5 Thank you.

6 DR. MILKE: We do have a correction. I'm

7 told by staff here that the issue of the section

8 number of the referenced ICC code, that will be

9 editorially changed to reflect the proper section

10 number. Mr. Quiter.

11 MR. QUITER: Yes. Jake is correct in his

12 comments about the TCC action at the ROP stage where

13 we did hold it because of the unavailability of the

14 document.

15 Beyond that, I'm going to defer to Warren

16 Bonisch who is chair of the Technical Committee on

17 Residential Occupancies.

18 DR. MILKE: Mr. Bonisch.

19 MR. BONISCH: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

20 Warren Bonisch with AON Fire, chair of Residential.

21 The committee voted 20 to reject, one abstention, and

22 two negatives.

23 If you look closely at the negatives we


237

1 have one from the proponent and one from the Home

2 Builders Association where you see most of the text

3 in the ROC.

4 Basically the committee was concerned

5 that the document was not available. Although Jake

6 was using the word widely available, all the way up

7 through our last meeting where our last vote

8 occurred, we did not have the document to look at.

9 There were multiple concerns related

10 to -- as delineated in the ROC, related to the

11 referenced A117.1 but, again, the document wasn't

12 there to review.

13 Unfortunately, at the meetings there was

14 primarily a discussion between the proponent and the

15 home builders, those two being most familiar with the

16 document, again with the committee not having access

17 to that document.

18 DR. MILKE: Okay. Thank you. We'll now

19 open debate on the motion. Again, please provide

20 your name and affiliation and whether you're speaking

21 in support of or against the motion. Microphone 5.

22 MS. GIBBS: I'm speaking on behalf of

23 Motion 5000-4. My name is Kathy Gibbs. I'm director


238

1 of training at the Institute For Human-Centered

2 Design, a non-profit organization located here in

3 Boston that works to expand opportunities and enhance

4 experience of people of all ages through excellence

5 in design.

6 I provide technical assistance on the

7 Federal Fair Housing Act, the Americans With

8 Disabilities Act, the International Building Code,

9 and ANSI accessibility standard throughout the U.S.

10 We encourage NFPA to take this important

11 step and adopt scoping requirements for Type C

12 dwelling units as specified in technical requirements

13 of the ANSI National Accessibility Standards.

14 We see adoption of Type C units as

15 closing a major hole in national accessibility

16 requirements.

17 NFPA addresses safety, usability, and

18 accessibility in public buildings. NFPA addresses

19 accessibility, usability, and safety in multi-family

20 housing.

21 It's time to take this next step of

22 adopting these very minimal accessibility

23 requirements for one- and two-family dwellings.


239

1 Quoting from NFPA's mission statement,

2 Reducing hazards on the quality of life in codes and

3 standards is part of our mission.

4 Although Type C units are called

5 visitable units, their importance goes beyond

6 visibility.

7 Yes, Type C units allow people with

8 mobility disabilities to visit their family and

9 friends and to use the bathroom.

10 But just as importantly, they support the

11 independence, functionality, and safety of people who

12 live in these residences.

13 For people who already have mobility

14 disabilities, Type C units will expand housing

15 options, and for the majority of us, Type C units

16 will allow us to stay home and function safely as we

17 acquire mobility impairments, either temporarily or

18 permanently. And we will.

19 According to the U.S. Census Bureau, at

20 the end of the 20th century approximately 35 million

21 people were 65 or older. The Bureau estimates that

22 figure doubling to 70 million by 2030.

23 And according to the National Center For


240

1 Health Statistics, approximately 22 million people

2 age 65 and older reported physical difficulties

3 functioning. That's two-thirds of the aging

4 population.

5 The current design of homes with steps at

6 all entrances, narrow interior doors, and small

7 bathrooms, force people to either live unsafely in

8 their home, to move to expensive assistive-living

9 situations which most of us can't afford, or to be

10 institutionalized in nursing homes.

11 One of the major inquiries we get at the

12 Institution for Human-Centered Design concern home

13 modifications for people who are leaving the hospital

14 or rehabilitation center.

15 Although it's often possible to modify a

16 home to support a person with a mobility impairment,

17 renovations are more costly than having basic

18 accessibility features included at construction, and

19 there's very little public or private funding for

20 home modifications.

21 A 2003 AARP respondent said that cost

22 was the major reason they did not make needed home

23 modifications such as widening doors, ramping an


241

1 entrance, or increasing the bathroom size to fit a

2 walker or wheelchair.

3 What are the health hazards and safety

4 risks for continuing as we are? Increased falls as

5 people struggle with steps and the difficulty of

6 negotiating a door at the top of the steps which is

7 often a hazardous situation, increased injury for

8 family members and caregivers who carry people in and

9 out of homes so they can go to doctor's appointments

10 an participate in the world outside of their home,

11 complete isolation for those unable to even negotiate

12 steps or for people who don't have caregivers able to

13 lift them, difficulty or inability to use the

14 bathroom resulting in people drinking less fluid to

15 reduce need for urination which can lead to kidney,

16 bladder, and other infections.

17 Again, caregivers are greatly stressed if

18 a person they are taking care of cannot function in

19 the bathroom.

20 To summarize, I encourage NFPA to broaden

21 its horizons, to take the lead, and to adopt this

22 next generation of minimal accessibility and safety

23 design for one- and two-family homes. Thank you very


242

1 much.

2 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Microphone 6?

3 Microphone 3 then.

4 MR. RICKARD: My name is John Rickard of

5 Olicon Design and I rise to speak in favor of the

6 motion.

7 I'm current chair of the NFPA 5000

8 Technical Committee on Building Systems which has

9 responsibility for Chapter 12, Accessibility, though

10 I'm not authorized to speak on behalf of the

11 committee.

12 The Technical Committee on Building

13 Systems looked at Comments 5000-140, 5000-140a, which

14 are essentially identical to Comment 5000-137.

15 A little bit of background with respect

16 to accessibility. NFPA 5000 provides scoping

17 direction indicating where accessibility is required,

18 and ANSI 117.1 provides technical requirements

19 indicating how accessibility is to be ensured where

20 required by the scoping.

21 To date the scoping provisions of the

22 accessibility chapter of NFPA 5000 are consistent

23 with every technical provision of ANSI 117.1.


243

1 This consistency was the key part of the

2 Building Systems Technical Committee's discussion

3 regarding Comments 5000-140 and 5000-140a.

4 Building Systems Technical Committee

5 voted to accept in principle the accessibility

6 provision at the ROP stage because the addition of

7 ANSI 117.1 that addressed the accessibility of Type

8 II residences was not yet available.

9 This edition of ANSI 117.1 is now

10 available. The text was available to us at the ROC

11 stage and we were able to review it and it is not

12 changed in the final document, and the Building

13 Systems Technical Committee accepted the disability

14 provisions at the ROC.

15 The vote was unanimous in recognition of

16 the committee's strong support of NFPA's policy to

17 reference sister consensus standards, which ANSI

18 117.1 is, without modification. Thank you.

19 DR. MILKE: Microphone 6 now.

20 MR. LOSKEY: David Loskey speaking on

21 behalf of the National Association of Home Builders.

22 I want to just point out a couple technical problems

23 with the testimony that was just given.


244

1 DR. MILKE: Are you speaking for or

2 against please?

3 MR. LOSKEY: Speaking against the motion.


5 MR. LOSKEY: Previously you just heard

6 that the ROC -- at the ROC stage for both Building

7 Systems Council and the Building Residential

8 Committee that the ICC standard was not available

9 and not published.

10 It was also not published at the TCC

11 meeting that was held in January of 2011, and that

12 was the reason why the TCC overturned the Building

13 Systems approval of the proposal.

14 Now, they did this because the

15 regulations for governing committee projects requires

16 that all standards are available for the Technical

17 Committees to review and approve. That did not

18 happen because we did not have a copy of it.

19 Now, some of the problems that I have

20 with the proposal that is trying to be approved today

21 is it gives you a couple of exceptions.

22 The very last one, They meet the site

23 impracticability test set out in Section 12.33.3.2.4


245

1 or the base flood elevation conditions set out in

2 Section 12.33.3.2.5. Those only apply to Type A and

3 Type B units.

4 When this proposal was first proposed to

5 the committee, they did not take into account that

6 they needed to go back and address the exceptions for

7 the flood elevations and the terrain to also include

8 the Type C units.

9 If this gets approved and if you go to

10 NFPA 5000 and look for the exception of Type C units

11 for those two exceptions, you'll not find them

12 because they're not in the building code.

13 The second thing I'd like to point out is

14 there was a lot of discussion about the A117

15 standard. We had drafts of what the language had.

16 That language required that there was a

17 circulation path. That path consisted of access from

18 outside the dwelling to the interior of the dwelling.

19 There was no exceptions in A117 saying

20 that if you were in a flood zone or if you had

21 topographical conditions that would prohibit a ramp,

22 that that unit did not have to be accessible.

23 The A117 standard also says if you could


246

1 not meet the ramp conditions, that you would have to

2 put in elevators, lifts, wheelchair access.

3 That information wasn't provided to the

4 building residential committee. The reason that the

5 committee disapproved it was because there were so

6 many requirements inside the new Type C dwelling

7 units representing other parts of the A117 standard

8 that was unavailable for us to review and see how

9 this was going to change residential construction. I

10 urge you to disapprove this motion.


12 Microphone 5 please.

13 MR. MUEHE: Good afternoon. My name is

14 Michael Muehe. My affiliation is the Cambridge

15 Commission for Persons with Disabilities and I speak


17 I'm executive director of the Cambridge

18 Commission for Persons with Disabilities here in

19 Massachusetts. I'm also the ADA coordinator for the

20 City of Cambridge.

21 The mission of our commission is to

22 promote a more accessible and welcoming city for all

23 people with disabilities in all aspects of Cambridge


247

1 community life.

2 I welcome this opportunity to speak in

3 favor of the motion to establish scoping requirements

4 for Type C housing units.

5 Following the civil rights movement in

6 the 1960's, people with disabilities began their own

7 movement in the 1970's demanding equal right in areas

8 such as housing, transportation, employment, public

9 accommodations, and government services.

10 Parallel to the disability rights

11 struggle emerged an independent living movement begun

12 by people with disabilities demanding equal

13 opportunity to live independently in the community

14 with the necessary support services like personal

15 assistants and accessible housing and transportation

16 to ensure decent quality of life.

17 Over the past two decades since the

18 passage of the Americans With Disabilities Act, the

19 Federal Fair Housing Act, and the adoption of state

20 building codes for accessibility, we have made great

21 strides in improving access and usability for people

22 with disabilities both in public facilities, public

23 transit, public accommodations, and multi-family


248

1 housing both in the greater Boston area and across

2 the country.

3 But even as thousands of disability

4 rights advocates and their allies around the country

5 have seen real success in improving accessibility,

6 increasingly we have realized three important things.

7 First, that simple literal compliance

8 with accessibility codes and standards is simply not

9 enough to realize our goal of full integration of

10 people with disabilities into our society.

11 Now we have embraced the philosophy of

12 universal design or sometimes it's referred to as

13 human-centered design which says, Let's design all

14 of our facilities, buildings, and products to be

15 maximally usable to everyone with a minimum of

16 retrofit.

17 Second, we have realized that people with

18 disabilities still face tremendous amounts of social

19 isolation and exclusion.

20 This isolation has real public health

21 consequences including increased rates of depression

22 and other mental health problems and significantly

23 reduced quality of life.


249

1 If we are to really attack and eliminate

2 this isolation in all its dimensions, we must create

3 neighborhoods that are welcoming and usable by all.

4 This includes moving beyond mere

5 compliance with federal and state fair housing

6 standards to ensure that every new home, including

7 single-family homes, are visitable by neighbors and

8 others with disabilities.

9 Third, in this decade since 9/11 and

10 Hurricane Katrina, people with disabilities have

11 increasingly realized that our needs have not been

12 adequately taken into account both in emergency

13 preparedness and planning, and more generally in the

14 life safety arena.

15 This proposal will help move us in that

16 direction by providing that each single-family home

17 constructed will allow for at least one zero step

18 entrance that will help with evacuation as well.

19 Approximately 75 million baby boomers are

20 expected to reach retirement age in the next two

21 decades.

22 Public health statistics have

23 consistently shown that with increasing age comes


250

1 increasing rates of disability including mobility

2 impairment.

3 In addition to being entirely consistent

4 with NFPA's mission statement, adopting this motion

5 is an important next step in addressing the public

6 health, universal design, and quality of life

7 challenges I have described. Thank you again for the

8 opportunity to comment on this report proposal.


10 discussion on this motion? Microphone 5.

11 MR. PAULS: Thank you. My name is Jake

12 Pauls. I'm for the motion and I'd just like to speak

13 in rebuttal. I believe there's only one person that

14 needs to be rebutted.

15 First of all, some clarifications. We

16 were criticized for not having scoping in A117.1.

17 Well, A117.1 doesn't have scoping and it's forbidden

18 to have scoping.

19 So the issue of the flood plain and all

20 that is irrelevant for the standard that goes with

21 the scoping.

22 If there's a problem with that flood

23 exemption and if it's indeed relevant, that can be


251

1 fixed in a TIA or even the Standards Council could

2 fix that. That's a minor issue.

3 What it comes down to, though, is this is

4 a potent symbol because the home builders simply

5 won't allow NFPA 5000 to be adopted and applied.

6 So on one hand they're arguing this isn't

7 going to work, but on the other hand outside this

8 meeting they've done their darndest to make sure that

9 NFPA 5000 will never be adopted and applied to

10 housing in the U.S.

11 So I think what they're afraid of -- and,

12 you know, a bit of conjecture, a bit of history. The

13 International Building Code had hearings on this

14 topic as well, on scoping of ANSI 117.1.

15 But the person who submitted that

16 proposal submitted a partial scoping proposal. In

17 other words, it was very complicated scoping.

18 And the committee, the IBC committee,

19 basically told him, Come back with a simpler scoping

20 which requires all new housing to be scoped.

21 And that's exactly what I had done before

22 that was even held, that hearing was held. So we

23 have a situation here where the appropriate scoping,


252

1 both in terms of committees in NFPA and in terms

2 of -- even within the IBC process, is to have the

3 broadest scoping possible.

4 And we heard from the two people from the

5 public health and accessibility communities. That's

6 what makes sense in terms of scoping. This is a

7 powerful symbol.

8 Because NFPA, regardless of whether it's

9 adopted or not locally, has a potent effect both

10 internationally and within the U.S. as a precursor to

11 what's adopted by other model codes.

12 And that's why the home builders are

13 afraid of this passing. It's just too powerful a

14 symbol.

15 And so I am very much in favor of this

16 symbol being published by NFPA, because we've done it

17 many times before, with home sprinklers, with

18 stairways, and many other things, which eventually

19 became adopted and became a major topic, for example,

20 within NFPA.

21 On the issue of the references not being

22 available within the standard for review because the

23 book wasn't available, nobody has come up and said


253

1 that we misled them about any reference.

2 So there's no problem there. That was a

3 totally academic issue and, indeed, the very people

4 who are raising that had the standard in hand anyway,

5 and they never raised any issues.

6 So there is no issue there in terms of us

7 misleading people, because I presented the text to

8 the best ability I could at both the ROP and ROC

9 stage.

10 Nobody ever raised an issue on that even

11 though the information was widely available. Thank

12 you very much.


14 MR. FINNEGAN: Good afternoon. My name

15 is Dan Finnegan and I am representing myself and I'm

16 speaking against the motion.

17 I've had the opportunity to see a rather

18 detailed presentation on this concept of visibility

19 and I can only share with you that I have significant

20 concerns.

21 My feelings are very much of a concern

22 about the invasion of direction on how our homes are

23 to be built in such a way that I'm not sure really


254

1 affects life safety, fire protection, the things that

2 NFPA is based around.

3 I understand the issues that are being

4 presented but I think those need to be dealt with on

5 a one-by-one basis.

6 I know my personal family has got issues

7 and you know what? We dealt with it. We built

8 ramps. We do what needs to be done.

9 I'm not sure we need to have this concept

10 of visibility implanted into every single home that

11 gets built as we move forward.

12 I just have a very uneasy feeling. I

13 would like to see more research. I would like to see

14 more information presented on this concept of

15 visibility and let this thing mature a little bit

16 further before it gets incorporated into a national

17 building standard. Thank you.


19 MR. KRAUS: Dick Kraus speaking for

20 myself. Call for the question.

21 FROM THE FLOOR: Second

22 DR. MILKE: That's non-debatable. I

23 heard a second. That's a non-debatable motion. We


255

1 go right to a vote. All in favor of calling the

2 question raise your hands. All opposed? Motion

3 passed.

4 We move directly then to the vote of the

5 motion on the floor now which is to accept Comment

6 5000-137. All in favor of the motion please indicate

7 by raising your hands. All opposed? Motion fails.

8 I'm told that the submitter of 5000-5 and

9 5000-6 would prefer to deal with these with 5000-6

10 first.

11 DR. HIRSCHLER: Yes. That's correct.

12 Marcelo Hirschler, GBH International and NAFRA, and I

13 hereby move to accept Comment 5000-31 and 5000-32.

14 DR. MILKE: Is there a second?


16 DR. MILKE: We'll advise the group again

17 this is one of these motions that was similar to one

18 of the ones that we started out with shall we say

19 some time ago related to 703 and 101.

20 And we'll have an abbreviated discussion

21 of where the differences are and that I think would

22 be appreciated by all. Doctor Hirschler.



256

1 International, for NAFRA. And all I want to say is

2 if this gets approved we're going to have the exact

3 same definition in 5000 and 101 and 703. Thank you.

4 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Mr. Quiter.

5 MR. QUITER: We support Marcelo on this.

6 DR. MILKE: Is there any discussion?

7 Moving toward the mike I see microphone 1 when you

8 get there.

9 MS. NEWMAN: Good afternoon. Kathleen

10 Newman, FireTect. I am for the motion. It's the

11 same thing as before.

12 We would be limiting different -- We

13 would be limiting other processes and other choices

14 that builders would have and so I would like to

15 accept this motion. Thank you.

16 DR. MILKE: Thank you very much. Any

17 further discussion? Seeing none I think we can go

18 right to the vote then.

19 This is a vote to accept Comments 5000-31

20 and 5000-32. All in favor please raise your hands.

21 All opposed? Motion passes. We go to 5000-5 now, I

22 believe.



257

1 International, for NAFRA. I will not pursue.

2 DR. MILKE: Thank you very much. That

3 is appreciated. So we go to 5000-7 then, and once

4 again --

5 DR. HIRSCHLER: Sorry. Give me one

6 second please. Marcelo Hirschler, GBH International,

7 for NAFRA, and I hereby move acceptance of Comment

8 5000-183.


10 on the floor to accept Comment 5000-183. Is there a

11 second?


13 DR. MILKE: Thank you. There is a second

14 so please proceed with the discussion.

15 DR. HIRSCHLER: This is again the same

16 that we've discussed earlier but not on this item,

17 but on the item of use of fire retardant-treated wood

18 in plenums.

19 This section of the annex basically takes

20 the old text from the previous edition of 5000 that

21 allows FRTW in plenums, puts it in the annex so my

22 motion is to eliminate that so we avoid any conflict.

23 Thank you.


258

1 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Mr. Quiter.

2 MR. QUITER: I will defer directly to Joe

3 Versteeg, chairman of the Technical Committee on

4 Building Instruction.


6 MR. VERSTEEG: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

7 As stated by Marcelo, this is now a valid annex note

8 in that all of the prior wording has been eliminated

9 and merely makes reference to NFPA 90A which is

10 appropriate based on the prior actions. Thank you.

11 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Open debate on

12 this topic at this point. Anyone at a mike? Seeing

13 none we'll move right to the vote then.

14 This is -- The motion on the floor is to

15 accept Comment 5000-183. All in favor raise their

16 hands. All opposed? Motion passes. Thank you,

17 Mr. Quiter.

18 So this is the word we've been waiting

19 for, at least in a way. This is the last report --

20 MR. LATHROP: Before you wrap up the 5000

21 report, I'd like to have a personal privilege for a

22 minute.

23 DR. MILKE: Please.


259

1 MR. LATHROP: As a chairman of one of the

2 101 committees and being on many of the 101

3 committees, I'd like to thank NFPA for the tremendous

4 support staff that we have that we get to work with

5 all through years.

6 Robert Solomon has put together a

7 fantastic group of people including Ron Cote, Greg

8 Harrington, Allan Fraser, Kristin Collette and Tracy

9 Golinveaux -- I'm sorry, Tracy, I always screw that

10 up -- along with the support staff of Jim McGovern,

11 Linda McKay, Kelly, and Diane Matthews.

12 And I personally would like to thank NFPA

13 for the tremendous help that they give us.

14 DR. MILKE: Thank you, Mr. Lathrop. Now

15 let us go to the last report under consideration this

16 afternoon, that of the Technical Committee on

17 Electrical Safety in the Workplace.


19 committee chair David Dini of Underwriters

20 Laboratories, Northbrook, Illinois.


22 blue 2011 annual ROP and ROC. Certified Amending

23 Motions are contained in the Motions Committee report


260

1 and behind me on the screen. We will proceed in the

2 order of the motion sequence number presented.

3 MR. DINI: Thank you, Mr. Chair, ladies

4 and gentlemen. The report of the Technical Committee

5 on Electrical Safety in the Workplace is presented

6 for adoption and can be found in the Report on

7 Proposals and Report on Comments for the 2011 Annual

8 Revision Cycle.


10 report consisting of a partial revision of NFPA 70E

11 Standard for Electrical Safety in the Workplace.



14 members and the Technical Correlating Committee on

15 the National Electric Code that consists of twelve

16 voting members.


18 70E-3 to 70E-232 of the Report on Proposals and pages

19 70E-3 to 70E-127 of the Report on Comments.


21 with the Certified Amending Motions.

22 DR. MILKE: We will proceed now with the

23 discussion on Certified Amending Motions starting


261

1 with Motion 70E-1. Microphone 3.

2 MR. MILLS: I'm Dave Mills, Savannah

3 River Nuclear Solutions, and I'm the duly designated

4 representative for Bobby Gray and I'm here to move to

5 accept Comment 70E-14.

6 DR. MILKE: Thank you. There is a motion

7 to accept Comment 70E-14. Is there a second? Is

8 there a second?


10 DR. MILKE: Thank you. There's a second.

11 Please proceed with the discussion on the motion.

12 MR. MILLS: The wording in Comment 70E-14

13 was offered as a revision to my original proposal

14 70E-12 as follows: New section 90.5, Enforcement.

15 This standard is intended to be suitable

16 for mandatory application by employers and other

17 entities that exercise legal jurisdiction over the

18 safe electrical work practices.

19 The authority having jurisdiction for

20 enforcement of the standard has the responsibility

21 for making interpretation of the rules, for deciding

22 on the approval of work practices, procedures, and

23 methods, and for granting the special permission


262

1 contemplated in a number of the rules.

2 By special permission the authority

3 having jurisdiction shall be permitted to approve

4 alternative methods, for it has assured that

5 equivalent objectives can be achieved by establishing

6 and maintaining effective safety.

7 An informational note. The range of

8 enforcement and allowance for the designated

9 authority having jurisdiction may be limited by

10 federal or local enforcement authorities that

11 exercise jurisdiction over the safety of individuals

12 or public work locations. That's the actual wording

13 on which you will be voting.

14 This recommended enforcement provision

15 does not require a regulatory or governmental agency

16 to be the AHJ, although it does not prohibit it

17 either.

18 The employer or an entity invoking the

19 standard as a requirement still has the flexibility

20 to designate an internal AHJ unless local laws or

21 regulatory agencies require otherwise.

22 Within the NFPA regulations governing

23 committee projects, there's still the requirement


263

1 that a standard be written such as it may indeed be

2 suitable for adoption into law.

3 Clearly, without a written enforcement

4 provision, the current document does not meet the

5 requirement as stated in Section 3.3.6.1 as follows

6 in the definition of standard:

7 A document the main text of which

8 contains only mandatory provisions using the word

9 "shall" to indicate requirements and which is in a

10 form generally suitable for mandatory reference by

11 other standard or code or adoption into law.

12 With the incorporation of the recommended

13 text per the Comment 70E-14, the standard will meet

14 the requirement for being adoptable into law and

15 provide the designated AHJ the necessary flexibility

16 to differentiate between conflicting requirements for

17 the improvement of the safety of the worker.

18 The definition in 70E for AHJ is similar

19 to any other NFPA standard: An organization, office,

20 or individual responsible for enforcing the

21 requirement of a code or standard or approving

22 equipment, materials, and installation or a

23 procedure.


264

1 The AHJ for one standard is not

2 necessarily the AHJ for another, such as NFPA 70 and

3 NFPA 70E.

4 I have acted as the AHJ for the Savannah

5 River site since -- for 70E since 2004 and during

6 that time the DOE has indeed made it law through the

7 Code of Federal Regulations 10 CFR 851.

8 Since that time it has become very

9 difficult to enforce all parts of this standard as

10 there are many cases where conflicts exist.

11 The original proposal, 70E-12, I made

12 requested the indication of an enforcement clause

13 such that I as the AHJ and others in similar

14 positions could legitimately enforce the standard.

15 Every entity will, by default or by

16 choice, have an AHJ for 70E, and this AHJ will be

17 forced to make decisions on the implementation of

18 this standard.

19 While you will most likely hear from the

20 70E Committee, the electrical section and others will

21 probably be in opposition to this motion.

22 The reasoning stated to me has been based

23 on fear that the AHJ will not be qualified to make


265

1 the needed decisions regarding the implementation of

2 the standard.

3 I believe this fear to be unfounded as

4 the organization, office, or individual responsible

5 acting as the AHJ as designated by the employer will

6 be a qualified individual regarding electrical

7 safety.

8 What the committee has offered to me so

9 far has been, and I quote, this document is a

10 consensus standard suitable for adoption by

11 employers.

12 The entity or employer that adopts NFPA

13 70E is responsible for enforcement of the requirement

14 in the standard, unquote.

15 And I quote. The committee merely

16 reinforces its previous position that NFPA 70E is a

17 standard, not a code, and therefore enforcement of

18 the requirements in the standard is the

19 responsibility of any entity that chooses to adopt

20 it.

21 Neither of these address the real concern

22 and I please ask you to support this motion.

23 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Mr. Dini, would


266


2 MR. DINI: Yes. On the original proposal

3 associated with this comment our committee did reject

4 the proposal.

5 And as David just read, our statement was

6 that the document is a consensus standard suitable

7 for adoption by employers.

8 The entity; namely, the employer, that

9 adopts NFPA 70E is responsible for enforcement of the

10 requirements in the standard.

11 Our vote on this proposal was 22 in favor

12 and only two against. We again reaffirmed our

13 position during the comment phase and we did indicate

14 that the committee reinforces its previous position

15 that NFPA 70E is a standard, not a code, and

16 therefore enforcement of the requirements in the

17 standard is the responsibility of any entity that

18 chooses to adopt it.

19 I did re-poll my committee and they did

20 indicate that nobody wished to change their vote on

21 this particular item.

22 DR. MILKE: Thank you, Mr. Dini. We will

23 now open up debate on the motion. Microphone 2.


267

1 MR. KOVACIK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

2 John Kovacik, Underwriters Laboratories speaking on

3 behalf of the electrical section of NFPA and speaking


5 The members of the electrical section met

6 yesterday morning and at that meeting they voted in

7 opposition to Certified Amending Motion 70E-1.

8 In effect the members of the electrical

9 section do not support the motion on the floor.

10 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

11 DR. MILKE: Thank you, sir. Any other

12 discussion? Seeing none we can move to a vote. This

13 is -- The motion on the floor is to accept Comment

14 70E-14. All in favor please raise your hands. All

15 opposed? The motion fails.

16 We move to 70E-2. Thank you. Microphone

17 1.

18 MR. HAMER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. My

19 name is Paul Hamer with Chevron Energy Technology

20 Company. I'd like to move to accept Comment 70E-107.


22 on the floor to accept Comment 70E-107. Is there a

23 second?


268


2 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Mr. Hamer, please

3 discuss.

4 MR. HAMER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I'll

5 make some introductory comments but won't repeat them

6 with every motion.

7 DR. MILKE: Appreciate that.

8 MR. HAMER: My background is in

9 electrical engineering. I have both a BS and MS

10 degree with Chevron Energy Technology Company and I

11 am an IEEE fellow and a Chevron fellow.

12 I have been a member of the Technical

13 Committee on Electrical Safety in the Workplace for

14 15 years and just recently left the Technical

15 Committee in 2010.

16 I've come here to offer constructive

17 suggestions and observations, not to be obstructive.

18 I've been a champion of 70E and electrical safety for

19 many years and I'm concerned that the changes for

20 2012 seriously affect the document's credibility at

21 both the national and international levels,

22 particularly having to do with the dilution of the

23 energized electrical work permit, elimination of the


269

1 120-volt ground exception from the requirement for an

2 arc flash analysis, unsubstantiated increase in

3 personal protective equipment and the introduction of

4 extraneous information in the hazard risk category

5 tables.

6 The following motions are intended to

7 correct most of those observed difficulties. I've

8 decided to concentrate on those that have the highest

9 potential impact and changes I feel are necessary to

10 avoid a motion to return the entire report.

11 The following seven motions advance

12 specific proposed actions that can be taken and save

13 the thousands of hours of work that have been

14 expended by all those devoted people in the past

15 cycle.

16 I do not believe that many people fully

17 realize the impact of the proposed changes for 2012.

18 This is not surprising considering the large number

19 of proposals and comments and the complicated ROP and

20 ROC actions.

21 It's really part of my job to look at

22 this as it affects Chevron and how it affects our

23 internal standards.


270

1 Please consider my credentials,

2 especially related to the international advocacy of

3 70E, my active engagement as the TC member, and my

4 leadership role in the origination of the hazard risk

5 tables.

6 Chevron actually gave its tables to NFPA

7 in the 2000 edition to form the basis for the hazard

8 risk tables.

9 Within Chevron we've adopted 70E 2009 as

10 a basis for international application of our internal

11 safe work practice standard which supplements 70E.

12 It's been successfully rolled out

13 worldwide, the first Chevron-wide safe work practice

14 standard.

15 Even confined space entry and working

16 from heights, safe work practices have not gained

17 worldwide acceptance.

18 Two companies have applied 70E as

19 extensively as we have. We operate in 31 countries

20 world wide.

21 Over 60 percent of Chevron's operations

22 are outside the U.S. We truly need a document that

23 maintains high credibility internationally and the


271

1 70E product for 2012, without the revisions proposed

2 in these amending motions, does not satisfy that

3 goal. Again, my only motivation is to assure worker

4 safety and to maintain the credibility of 70E.

5 Getting to the motion which is on ROC

6 page 70-24 and also on ROP page 70-25, this motion

7 would change -- It's a training documentation and it

8 would change the last sentence to read, The

9 documentation shall contain a description of the

10 training, each employee's name, and the dates of

11 training, and this change is away from crossing out

12 the content of the training.

13 Including the content of the training in

14 the records could be interpreted as meaning training

15 materials, presentations, tests, videos, etcetera.

16 A brief description of the training

17 should be sufficient. We wonder about the

18 intellectual property issues and mandating that we

19 turn over copyrighted videos as part of our records.

20 Thank you, Mr. Chair.

21 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Mr. Dini.

22 MR. DINI: Yes. Thank you. Our

23 committee did accept this original proposal. We


272

1 agreed with the submitter's substantiation where he

2 indicated that it has been long understood that the

3 content of the training needs to be included in order

4 to comply with the requirements of OSHA 1910.332.

5 The vote of our committee was 20 in

6 favor, three against, and one abstained. The one

7 abstained was the representative from OSHA who

8 abstained in accordance with agency policy against

9 voting on technical issues.

10 However, the representative from OSHA did

11 indicate that he did agree with our action on this

12 particular proposal.

13 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Microphone two.


15 John Kovacik, Underwriters Laboratories, speaking on

16 behalf of the electrical section of NFPA.

17 The electrical section met yesterday

18 morning, and at that meeting the members voted in

19 opposition to Certified Amending Motion 70E-2.

20 In effect, the members of the electrical


22 Thank you.

23 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Continuing


273

1 discussion? Microphone one.

2 MR. KRAUS: Dick Kraus, API, speaking in

3 favor of the motion. If the electrical section would

4 define what they meant by the contents up front,

5 then, you know, this could be acceptable, but having

6 an undefined thing leaves it -- as Paul said, leaves

7 it wide open to interpretation.

8 Description is much easier, much better.

9 In effect, when this is adopted by other countries

10 you get into this some of this foreign -- Do you

11 expect people to give you things in different

12 languages to look at? I don't think so, but I would

13 urge your acceptance of this. Thank you.


15 MR. HICKMAN: Thank you. My name is

16 Palmer Hickman. I represent the electrical workers

17 on the 70E Technical Committee. However, I'm

18 speaking for myself in this particular instance.

19 I speak in opposition to the motion. We

20 are clear as a committee in our vote what we wanted.

21 A description is inadequate.

22 We want to know the content. I liken it

23 to a course catalog. Maybe you're going to take a


274

1 college course in a flyer you got in the mail.

2 A description of the course is not

3 sufficient for documentation of what training that

4 you got.

5 The committee was clear. They want the

6 content of the training. They want to know what

7 training was given.

8 So the term description would provide an

9 overview of the training and that's all that it would

10 do. It would remove the requirement to provide

11 supporting documentation.

12 In order to determine training

13 requirements for a worker and in order to determine

14 that the worker possesses the skills and knowledge

15 the employer would need, we'd need the content of the

16 training materials, test, etcetera.

17 In 2007 OSHA changed their definition of

18 qualified persons to include, quote, demonstrated

19 skills and knowledge, end quote.

20 A description would not provide the

21 necessary information to evaluate if a worker is

22 adequately trained.

23 The term content provides the correct


275

1 criteria to evaluate and assure a worker's qualified.

2 Please join the committee in their 20 votes to not

3 support this motion. Thank you.



6 MR. McLAUGHLIN: My name is Stewart

7 McLaughlin. I'm with All Star Facility Services,

8 AKAG4S. I'm facility manager at a federal building.

9 We --

10 DR. MILKE: Are you speaking for or

11 against please?

12 MR. McLAUGHLIN: I'm going to speak

13 against. The reason I'm speaking against is I don't

14 want to see anybody do something that's going to take

15 a lot of extra time for little effect, and I think

16 that's what this is going to do.

17 I've been managing maintenance operations

18 for 25 years. As a professional engineer -- I've

19 been a registered professional engineer for 20 years

20 in a couple of states.

21 So I manage maintenance operations with

22 that educational level and I manage them very -- at

23 close range. I deal with maintenance every day.


276

1 In fact, I just work in one building and

2 my concern -- The reason I'm voting against this is

3 because the content -- What I would really push for

4 is more training than you could actually get content

5 on a few sheets of paper to describe.

6 There's a very large deficiency in the

7 knowledge required for qualified workers as

8 currently, I believe, stated in 70E and OSHA.

9 I believe that people need training. An

10 OSHA representative described to me yesterday or day

11 before -- and I believe him -- that OSHA does not

12 support licensure because people who are licensed

13 electricians are -- they do installation and they

14 really don't know that much about maintenance.

15 Well, I believe that very much. He makes

16 a good point. I was thinking, Well, that's the best

17 you could do, but without licensure how does a person

18 know that someone is qualified?

19 How can any one of us -- Unless you've

20 received training which is very technical, how can

21 any one of us provide some kind of certification that

22 so and so's training is acceptable?

23 And I don't think that even you or I or


277

1 anybody else, unless you've had some training in

2 maintenance in electrical safety -- and I'm talking

3 about maintenance. I'm not talking about

4 installation.

5 I'm talking about troubleshooting and

6 things of that nature. If we don't have training in

7 this stuff, how can you, even looking at a

8 description of, you know, what they've learned,

9 determine that their training is acceptable?

10 So I believe that the NFPA needs to move

11 toward apprenticeship in building maintenance and

12 electrical safety.

13 People who actually work on electricity

14 all the time, there's no training in it, I think

15 you're just wasting your time by creating lists of

16 stuff that they -- That's not going to tell you

17 anything. It's just going to waste your time.

18 That's my opinion.

19 DR. MILKE: Number 6.

20

21 MR. HICKMAN: Thank you. Palmer Hickman

22 with the IBEW, speaking against the motion. Again,

23 very quickly, a description just simply isn't enough.


278

1 Saying that you were, quote, trained in

2 70E, end quote, would not give anyone looking,

3 including OSHA, any clue of what you were trained in,

4 so the content is what the committee intended.

5 I know Paul's comments were it's not

6 clear what's meant by the content. I think content

7 is very clear. Again, please support the committee

8 in the electrical section. Thank you.


10 Microphone 1.

11 MR. HAMER: Mr. Chair, Paul Hamer from

12 Chevron Energy Technology Company speaking in favor

13 of the motion. I'd like to address remarks by

14 Mr. Hickman.

15 The substantiation for the original

16 proposal cited OSHA 1910.332 as requiring content.

17 If you refer to that, there's no such requirement in

18 that OSHA directive.

19 I'd also like to cite that a recently

20 released OSHA field and safety and health manual

21 which is numbered OSHA Directive No. ADM-04-00-001,

22 dated May 23, 2011 -- this applies to the inspectors

23 for OSHA -- has a section on training for their


279

1 electrical workers.

2 It says, Written records will include the

3 source of the training, the OSHA employees trained, a

4 description of the training provided, and the dates

5 when the training occurred. It does not include

6 content.


8 discussion? If not, we will move to the vote.

9 Microphone 5.


11 Saudi Arabia. The procedure in Saudi Aramco for any

12 work --

13 DR. MILKE: You're for or against

14 please?

15 MR. KAMALASANAN: There is a work

16 procedure we have to submit to the issue. The

17 receiver who's taking work permits, then only he can

18 take the work permit.

19 So what the procedure will go to the

20 issue he will study. Based on that one for each work

21 the permit will be issued. This is a procedure we

22 have following. There is no problem for work.

23 THE CHAIR: Are you speaking for --


280

1 MR. KAMALASANAN: In support. There

2 is -- One minute, sir. There is the issuer and the

3 receiver. The issuer has to receive the work

4 procedure based on that one. He will issue the work

5 permit and the receiver should be -- There's a

6 procedure going on. There is no problem.


8 discussion? Move on to a vote then. Motion on the

9 floor is to accept Comment 70E-107.

10 All in favor raise your hands. All

11 opposed? Motion fails. Move then to motion 70E-3.

12 Microphone 1.

13 MR. HAMER: Paul Hamer from Chevron

14 Energy Technology Company. I'd like to make a motion

15 to accept Comment 70E-180.


17 to accept Comment 70E-180. Is there a second?


19 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Please proceed

20 with the discussion.

21 MR. HAMER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. This

22 particular motion is on energized electrical work

23 permit. The comment is on page 70E-39 of the ROC and


281

1 the proposal was on 70E-52 and 53 of the ROP.

2 What this motion would do would reverse

3 the action on the proposal and go back to the

4 original text of 130.1(B)1 where it would state, When

5 working on energized electrical conductors or circuit

6 parts that are not placed in an electrically safe

7 work condition, that is, for the reasons of increased

8 or additional hazards or infeasibility per 130.1,

9 work to be performed shall be considered energized

10 electrical work and shall be performed by written

11 permit only.

12 The reason for this is that this

13 particular Proposal 199 changed the wording to say

14 that you have to have an energized electrical work

15 permit when operating within the limited approach

16 boundary or the arc flash boundary of exposed parts.

17 This is really an unsubstantiated

18 increase in the requirement for an energized

19 electrical work permit.

20 Unlike a shock approach boundary, the arc

21 flash boundary cannot be conclusively determined

22 because it varies significantly by the calculation

23 method assumptions, etcetera.


282

1 Now, the significance and effectiveness

2 of the energized electrical work permit would be

3 diluted.

4 To require site management authorization

5 for all tasks within the two boundaries as

6 anticipated becomes very onerous without

7 significantly improving existing safe work practices.

8 In effect, due to the large number of

9 permits, approval would be pushed down to low

10 supervision levels, and basically what we have now is

11 we have -- Mr. Chair, am I in order? Did I jump

12 ahead to my explanation or --

13 DR. MILKE: I think you're in the time

14 line.

15 MR. HAMER: Good. Thank you. The arc

16 flash boundary can vary widely based on the chosen

17 method of termination parameters used.

18 And as such, the new proposed requirement

19 is unenforceable, whereas the limited approach

20 boundary, the restricted approach boundary, and

21 prohibited approach boundary are very well defined in

22 Table 130.2c of 79.

23 We're using this electrical work permit


283

1 now with the definition working on and elevating the

2 requirement to approve this at a very high level.

3 And consequently, when the general

4 manager of facilities is asked to approve an

5 energized electrical work permit, that work usually

6 doesn't get done. They find a way to deenergize the

7 parts before working on them.

8 By diluting it you're going to be having

9 this done at a much lower supervision level and

10 probably decreased worker safety.

11 Substantiation of 70E-199 incompletely

12 represented the comments during the last revision

13 cycle. See Tom Carpenter's explanation of negative

14 for Proposal 199. That's on page 70E-53 at the very

15 bottom.

16 The proposal only referenced the

17 committee action on Comment 70E-403 for the 2009

18 standard. That's the ROC for the A 2008 which

19 changed live energized electrical conductors of

20 circuit parts.

21 However, the committee meeting action on

22 70E-404 for 2009 standard -- that's the ROC A 2008 --

23 revised the wording to what now exists in the 2009


284

1 standard which requires the permit when working on.

2 The committee statement for Comment

3 70E-404 in 2008 was committee action meets the intent

4 of the submitter and correlates with the action taken

5 on Comment 70E-403 and 70E-363.

6 In addition, the committee understands

7 that this action modifies the action taken on Comment

8 70E-403.

9 I ask you to refer to the vote and

10 negative comments on Proposal 70E-199. The vote was

11 17 to 6 on this particular proposal. This is a very

12 far-reaching requirement and should be overturned.

13 Thank you, Mr. Chair.

14 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Mr. Dini?

15 MR. DINI: Yes. Our original action on

16 the Proposal 70E-199, which began all this, was

17 accept in principle.

18 Our committee made what seemed like small

19 changes to 130.1(B)1 where we changed where required

20 to when required, and then we said when working

21 within the limited approach boundary of the arc flash

22 protection or the arc flash protection boundary of

23 exposed energized electrical conductors or circuit


285

1 parts and so on.

2 It did not seem like it was a lot of

3 change, but we later realized that it did have some

4 far-reaching potential difficulties with it.

5 So in response to that and after

6 receiving the Certified Amending Motion from

7 Mr. Palmer -- Mr. Hamer rather, I did reorganize a

8 task group that I originally had with my committee

9 that was addressing the particular proposals and

10 comments associated with this section.

11 They recently provided me with a three-

12 page report. The recommended of this report, which

13 consisted of a task group of 12 members of my

14 Technical Committee, said, This Task Group recommends

15 rejection of this amending motion.

16 They indicate that protection from only

17 an intentional contact to the circuit parts and

18 equipment is not adequate for practical safeguarding

19 of employees.

20 Any contact, intentional or

21 unintentional, can result in injury to the employees.

22 In summary they said that for performing any work in

23 an area where injury potential exists, such at the


286

1 limited approach and arc flash boundary, an energized

2 work permit is the method to evaluate electrical

3 hazards and mitigation such -- and mitigation of such

4 hazards and obtain management approval for this

5 justification.

6 DR. MILKE: Thank you. We'll open up

7 debate on the motion. Microphone 2.


9 John Kovacik, Underwriters Laboratories, speaking on

10 behalf of the electrical section of NFPA and speaking


12 The electrical section met yesterday

13 morning and the members voted in opposition to

14 Certified Amending Motion 70E-3.

15 In effect, the members of the electrical


17 Thank you.


19 MR. HICKMAN: Thank you. Palmer Hickman

20 with the IBEW, speaking for myself against the

21 motion.

22 I just ask the body to please join the 21

23 committee members who voted against this, join the


287

1 electrical section who voted against this, and join

2 the Task Group that looked at this with the three-

3 page report rejecting this. Thank you.



6 MR. HAMER: Paul Hamer, Chevron Energy

7 Technology Company. I just ask that you consider

8 that, respectful to the Technical Committee and the

9 task force, that they really need to look more

10 thoroughly into this as to what the actual effects

11 may be.

12 If you're within 35 feet of 15 kv switch

13 gear, by some definitions you're going to need an

14 energized electrical work permit.

15 If you're within three and a half feet of

16 most fixed parts, any fixed part energized, you're

17 going to need an energized electric work permit.

18 You're going to need an energized electric work

19 permit for everything. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

20 DR. MILKE: And you are speaking in

21 favor?

22 MR. HAMER: I'm speaking in favor of the

23 motion. I'm sorry.


288


2 Microphone 1.

3 MR. GOLDSMITH: Jeff Goldsmith, GE Water

4 & Process Technologies, speaking for myself in favor

5 of the motion.

6 Many of the requirements of 70E are

7 rather onerous and human nature is to -- is that if

8 you make things unnecessarily onerous, they're less

9 likely to be complied to.

10 Wearing PPE is very onerous but it is

11 extremely valuable in providing protection.

12 Paperwork. Work permits can be very onerous and by

13 themselves don't provide any protection.

14 I believe that we probably had a good

15 balance for the minimum requirements for work permits

16 previously, and we're probably -- whereas certain

17 facilities who choose to adopt this can choose to

18 require work permits where they think it's

19 appropriate, I think that maybe we've gone a little

20 too far with the minimum requirements.

21 DR. MILKE: Thank you. Further




289

1 Saudi Arabia working for Saudi Aramco. I am speaking



4 MR. KAMALASANAN: There is safe working

5 space there based on the work that is going on in

6 Saudi Arabia, Dubai, Abu Dhabi.

7 For example, cable on above ground, that

8 pulling the cable with the same spacing. They're not

9 switching off the things.

10 So that we can do the job without

11 switching off, the work is going everywhere. I have

12 already been to Abu Dhabi, Dubai. The name of the

13 company is Cobra. They're doing the work like that.


15 MR. McLAUGHLIN: The name's Stewart

16 McLaughlin with All Star Facility Services, a

17 division of G4S. I'm in opposition to the motion.

18 In the name of safety I disagree that

19 these measures are too onerous. We in fact do

20 require permits for -- any time we're going to be

21 doing hot work.

22 I sign a lot of them. We do it every

23 time somebody gets ready to open a panel, and now I


290

1 understand that there's modifications that would

2 require -- I understand, I should clarify, from

3 meetings that I was in a couple days ago -- that, you

4 know, even if the panel is closed, we may have an

5 issue there.

6 I don't think it's been nailed down yet

7 as to whether or not if you're just walking by a

8 closed panel, I think there's still some discussion

9 about whether or not if you're actually going to do

10 something at that panel.

11 And I would agree, having had breakers

12 blow up -- one breaker blow up in my face, 400 amp,

13 and thank God I'm still here to talk about it. I

14 just flipped the breaker. Something shorted but, you

15 know, the thing blew up.

16 So I can tell you that when you react

17 with a breaker, even if the thing's closed, you might

18 have issues.

19 Now, just walking by it, I don't see that

20 much of an issue. And so hopefully further

21 discussion on this matter will be had and we'll get

22 some clarification on that.

23 But we -- There's no problem with having


291

1 people do permits. Our folks do permits -- and by

2 the way, when I say our folks, I mean G4S is the

3 second largest employer in the world behind Wal-Mart.

4 We're in 160 countries.

5 Our employees will do the necessary

6 permits and the -- that labor causes our employees to

7 be safer. It brings the requirements of the work to

8 the forefront. We do not find it too onerous and I

9 therefore reject the proposal.



12 International. Call the question.


14 DR. MILKE: That's not debatable. All in

15 favor of calling the question raise your hands. All

16 opposed? We'll move right to -- That passes.

17 We'll move right to the vote of the

18 motion at hand. That motion is to accept Comment

19 70E-180. All in favor, raise hands. All opposed.

20 Motion fails.

21 FROM THE FLOOR: Mr. Chairman, I have a

22 procedural question.

23 DR. MILKE: Yes, sir.


292

1 FROM THE FLOOR: I request a ruling as to

2 whether we have a quorum to continue.

3 MR. HAMER: Point of order.

4 DR. MILKE: Thank you. In order to

5 confirm the quorum, would the voting members stand up

6 to be counted and I will please ask NFPA staff to

7 count the membership standing.

8 All the NFPA staff who are counting,

9 please come to the front so we can get this

10 organized.

11 Okay. You may be seated unless you enjoy

12 the standing just for a change. So as presiding

13 officer, I have determined with the help of friends

14 that the required quorum of 100 as noted in Section

15 4.2 of the NFPA bylaws is not present.

16 Without a quorum the session must be

17 terminated. If due to the lack of a quorum at an

18 Association Technical Meeting the Association fails

19 to make a recommendation concerning a report or a

20 portion of a report, the document shall be forwarded

21 directly to this Council without recommendation for

22 action in accordance with Section 4.7.

23 Notwithstanding the foregoing, any


293

1 motions to amend or return a report that have passed

2 prior to the loss of the quorum shall be processed

3 and forwarded to the Council in accordance with 4.5

4 and 4.6.

5 So with that, first of all, thank you,

6 Mr. Dini for your efforts and for your report.

7 MR. DINI: I'm from Chicago. If you want

8 to vote twice I have no problem. (Laughter.)

9 DR. MILKE: This officially concludes

10 this portion of the 2011 Annual Association Technical

11 Meeting. I want to thank you, especially those of

12 you hanging in this late, for your participation,

13 interest and support. I now declare this part of the

14 meeting officially closed.

15 (Whereupon at 6:17 p.m. the meeting closed.)

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23


294

1

2 C E R T I F I C A T E

3

4

5 I hereby certify that the foregoing 293 pages

6 contain a full, true and correct transcription of all

7 my stenographic notes to the best of my ability taken

8 in the above-captioned matter held at the Boston

9 Convention Center on Wednesday, June 15, 2011,

10 commencing at 12:30 p.m.

11

12

13

14 Linda J. Modano, Registered Professional Reporter

15 My commission expires May 11, 2018

16

17

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64:4 75:1676:13 99:2101:5 120:7133:10137:15 144:2156:21158:16198:20220:10 224:4224:7 229:10239:7,16249:17 251:5

allowable188:8,13

allowance262:8

allowed67:7 78:6 94:1

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allowing38:13 127:12

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allows94:10 157:3

180:6 191:11193:2 229:8257:21

altered95:8

alternate178:16 180:20

185:13alternative91:2 102:2

262:4alzheimers191:4 196:1,6

ambulatory106:13

amend38:3 87:5

293:1amended227:21,22

amending3:15 4:12,15

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164:11 178:6196:21 231:4

americans238:7 247:18

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amounts205:8 248:18

amp290:12

analogous39:21

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269:2analytical93:21

andress94:20

ane46:2

anecdotal199:2

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163:18 169:9169:13172:22 198:7257:19,21258:7

annexed42:12

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84:2,11216:21 217:7259:22 260:7293:10

ansi231:21 232:22

238:9,13242:18,23243:7,9,17251:14

anthony202:13

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anticipation143:20

anybody22:11 275:14

277:1anybodys183:9

anyway126:16 201:2

253:4aon210:8 236:20

apart32:1 82:14

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235:4,6aphas235:16

api273:2

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177:17185:12

apparently225:5

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applicable94:4,9 220:7

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96:18 150:3175:20177:22188:10

190:12 191:8191:22200:16261:16270:10

applications32:8 39:16

95:16 96:13121:12

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74:18 111:14111:18118:23175:20201:13,14214:3 251:5251:9 270:18

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118:17 150:7150:9 181:2185:19 214:4219:18,23,23220:4,21225:11 245:2

applying120:3 136:17

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appreciation34:20

apprenticeship277:11

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234:15281:15,20282:19,20,21284:21 286:1

approached35:6

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approaching72:20

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116:2 173:18212:22251:23258:10288:19

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approve106:7 244:17

262:3 283:2283:4

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97:9 108:8121:16175:18177:21 178:2182:16,19183:22198:18,19199:19,21221:12227:21244:20 245:9256:2

approving263:21

approximately16:9 39:8

239:20 240:1249:19

arabia81:7 122:20

176:9,10279:11 289:1289:6

aramco81:7 122:20

176:9 279:11289:1

arc269:2 281:16

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arch67:22

architect127:3 149:13

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148:4 149:12155:16

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architectures203:22

archives28:17

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areas48:17 76:5

98:23 101:10144:18150:11188:23 189:9190:10 191:1191:14 247:7

arena249:14

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argue157:5 207:20

arguing251:6

argument190:21

arguments29:14 50:20

149:11155:16213:18235:12

arkansas151:17 200:9

arrangements145:10 200:18

205:1arson207:18

ashi196:20

asked8:12 41:5 93:3

133:14 203:2221:1 283:4

asking8:6 12:19

47:13 48:1

135:11139:23167:17 192:7210:14221:10

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110:19,21111:1,6,7,21112:23113:23 114:2114:5 117:3119:10,13

assembly12:19 24:1

33:19 67:1791:7,12107:4 145:18205:9 212:9223:15

assessment125:6

asset60:19

assistance238:6

assistants247:15

assistiveli...240:8

associate202:11

associated18:7 42:12

157:11 233:7266:3 285:10

associates14:21 21:17

39:3 59:865:10 83:2297:2 104:16105:4 113:14136:14 138:4143:13149:23157:20181:10 184:4186:14195:19 201:9211:3 218:3223:21

association1:3 11:6,8,14

18:19 30:1830:19 32:19116:15 138:5178:9 196:21231:5 235:13237:2 243:21292:18,18293:10

assuming24:18

assumptions281:23

assure271:3 275:1

assured262:4

asterisk45:9

astm63:6 71:7 90:5

95:17 97:17121:15185:15

atmosphere137:16

atrium99:1 100:12

126:7 128:5attack249:1

attempt25:17 71:13

100:7 141:22189:7 214:14

attempts188:10

attendants137:18

attention128:12

augment45:14

authorities6:9 71:3 90:12

95:21 189:1189:3 262:10

authority96:4,5,17,17

116:18117:13 137:6172:16 174:5175:1,7261:19 262:2262:9

authorization282:4

authorized242:10

automatic95:16 96:10

availability232:16

available33:15 36:6

94:7 126:5130:7 162:20165:20168:15 182:2188:20 233:9233:12,14,20237:5,6243:8,10,10244:8,16252:22,23253:11

averill99:22 124:2

avoid93:1 104:19

135:3 138:13181:11 191:7257:22269:10

avoided96:16

avoids191:21

awaiting182:9

award14:19

Bbaby249:19

back3:4 6:22 9:22

14:6 22:2128:17 34:1039:15 41:543:14 44:1744:23 54:1055:21 67:968:19 69:1173:18 102:8102:19 113:3113:4 129:15133:19146:17166:14184:16 196:5199:10223:10 226:2227:6 228:6245:6 251:19281:3

background46:10 143:5

242:15 268:8

3

backing156:9

backup49:12

backwards201:4

bad24:10,19 25:2

25:2 26:9,22106:7 161:19220:17

badge30:4 51:11

82:17 131:13159:10

balance288:15

ballot4:5,8 61:14,17

66:3 84:1784:20 92:13217:12,15260:12,17

balloting30:12 51:19

82:22 93:16ballots97:9

barrier126:11 141:4,5

142:19 143:1145:12,13146:2,3147:12 150:4150:9,13,19154:11,12157:9

barriers98:11 126:5

140:5,9,18140:19141:10,12142:13 143:3143:20 144:7145:9 146:11147:2 150:6154:23 157:1157:4,11

base44:3 59:3

111:10,11200:13 245:1

based12:2 19:16

20:4,5,7,1021:12 25:1432:21 33:338:19 40:1742:14 43:3,944:20 45:250:1,3 53:458:11 68:386:18 98:3108:8 113:23145:1 158:8174:6 176:17181:23188:16194:19,19196:6 197:15219:10 254:2258:10264:22279:20 280:4282:16 289:5

baseless44:23

basic16:23 127:16

190:2 240:17basically8:18 34:14

45:20 47:1065:16,21,2266:11,1995:14 168:7168:7 177:3197:12201:14227:18

233:10 237:4251:19257:19282:10

basing19:22

basis8:21 9:5 35:4

41:12,1854:5 94:1396:19 210:11254:5 270:7270:10

bathroom239:9 241:1,14

241:19bathrooms240:7

battery163:8,11 169:3

169:7bds9:9

bear123:2

beat122:2

becoming205:6,11 207:1

bed145:14,14

beds207:14,14

began247:6 284:16

beginning75:20 80:2

begun247:11

behalf13:5 18:19

24:8 42:648:6 57:1862:4 93:5102:21 104:7104:23 108:5108:7 129:2131:1 137:6145:7 162:10165:11 170:1173:19 177:8181:10,15200:2 231:4231:6 237:22242:10243:21 267:3272:16286:10

behaviors206:21,21,23

207:6beitel65:9,9,15

218:2,3belief20:7,10

believe5:9 6:21 7:14

26:9 29:1534:11 38:2146:8,1270:15 100:8130:9 134:12135:9,14136:18137:21138:11 162:6177:1 214:17218:3 219:15250:13256:22 265:3269:16 276:8276:9,11,15277:10288:14

believed103:9

believes11:15

belong120:9

belonging163:3 168:21

benches125:11

beneath207:14

benefit141:13

best50:14 204:17

253:8 276:16294:7

better34:17 47:9

59:22 185:5198:17 234:6235:5 273:8

beyond63:9 172:9,10

172:20206:20235:19236:15 239:5249:4

big6:1 36:11

50:12 57:2067:6 144:2186:10,17199:15

bigger17:5 184:14,16

bill97:3 223:20

bit15:2 22:3

23:23 39:445:9 47:2,747:22 49:257:4 77:885:16 157:10212:21242:15251:12,12254:15

bladder241:16

blanket95:15

blew290:15

block96:14

blow290:12,12

blue60:22 84:2

216:21259:22

blunt196:12

board104:8 105:18

131:2 147:21165:14 183:6

bobby261:4

body163:13,17

169:8,12286:22

bona128:4

bonisch210:3,6,7,8

236:16,18,19236:20

book252:23

boomers249:19

booth125:9

boston1:5,9 3:2

238:3 248:1294:8

bottom126:12 283:15

boucher69:16,17

boundaries282:5

boundary36:21 281:16

281:16,20,21282:16,20,20282:21284:21,22286:1

bounded101:7

brad4:17 25:22

28:6 45:752:3 57:22

brads50:15

break187:7,9 189:10

breaker290:12,14,17

breakers290:11

breeds207:8

brief228:20 271:16

briefly18:22

bring121:2 134:5

161:1 164:15167:16 199:2206:20

bringing120:9 146:4

166:1brings120:16 157:21

291:7broad234:8

broaden241:20

broader174:3

broadest252:3

brought36:2 79:20

81:17 158:3158:14164:13206:18

bruce21:16

bs268:9

build208:18

builders71:3 235:14

237:2,15243:21 251:4252:12256:14

building2:14 18:16

61:13 69:871:16 90:2,390:17 92:895:5 96:12101:17 107:3110:15 111:1112:10,14,16118:19 134:4134:5 141:1142:13144:15 146:8146:15152:17 156:3158:7 201:14203:18 206:2216:17 217:4217:9,11

218:23 220:3221:6 222:1222:4 223:4226:2,7227:19 228:3231:1 232:22234:2,10238:8 242:8242:12 243:2243:4,12244:6,7,12245:12 246:4247:20251:13254:17 258:4275:8 276:1277:11

buildings91:20,21 92:3

98:11 107:7198:8 203:21205:8,20220:1,6,11226:4,8231:20234:22238:18248:14

built126:21 204:20

253:23 254:7254:11

bulb56:9

bunch156:12

bundles31:17 53:15

bunji145:4,5

burden91:11,14

bureau239:19,21

burn26:14 158:12

burner14:4 16:2

19:18 24:2325:5,16

burners63:10

burning26:19 36:13

111:6 180:13186:18,19

business3:14 23:2 68:3

107:6,10128:1 145:21145:22 146:1146:5,9150:18 154:5

businesses203:15

busy82:4

bylaws292:15

Ccable31:17,20,23

46:6,1053:15,1599:21,21100:7 124:1124:1,10,11127:21 128:8289:7,8

cables31:18 40:20

46:6,7 221:5225:3 229:6

calculation281:22

calculations9:8

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28:13 70:9121:9

call30:3 81:21,22

82:5,15123:10128:12158:20 159:1159:8 170:9179:2,4196:3 210:13254:20291:12

called45:18 102:10

184:4 239:4calling30:1 123:13

159:2 170:10170:12 179:6255:1 291:15

calls40:22

calorimeter185:21 186:3

cam3:13 8:6 10:8

89:1cambridge246:14,17,20

246:23campbell21:16,16

campus204:21 205:23

207:22208:10,14

cancer28:12

candles206:13

cant21:18 41:10

107:22178:14,15180:17192:21193:19 223:9240:9

capability15:13

capable34:7 110:17

capacity182:5,10

car199:12

carbon23:7

care80:12 100:14

104:7 106:11106:12,13,14107:7 108:18108:22124:15,17126:4,6,9,20127:10 128:2128:4 129:1129:6,10,19130:7 131:1132:7,22133:1,3,5,7134:11,23135:5 137:7137:8 138:4138:19 140:6140:6,10,11140:15 141:8141:13142:19 143:1144:4,16145:16,21146:5,10,17147:1,3,18147:20148:10,10,13148:16,19149:19150:12,13,17

4

150:22 151:1151:3,5,8153:17,22154:2,6,14155:6,7156:20 157:1160:11 162:9162:14,20,23163:23 164:3165:12,14,19165:22 168:1168:5,10,15168:18169:17 170:2170:4 171:22173:19174:15,20177:9 181:1181:14,21183:3,4188:9,15190:6,23193:23 194:6194:7 196:21198:4 200:2200:3,5241:18

carefully223:12

caregivers241:8,12,17

carpenters283:13

carried108:22 188:19

carries82:8

carry197:9 199:1

241:8case70:16 94:8,12

95:10 130:2130:15133:11 144:7153:14 184:4194:21 195:1

casebycase96:19

cases28:10 90:18

91:5,18 92:2213:22 214:6234:20264:10

catalog273:23

category269:4

cator149:22

caucus212:21

caucused213:2

caused17:2 22:8

133:17137:11 206:5

causes291:6

caveat46:20 53:6

caveats54:8

ceiling21:23 111:17

111:20115:23 120:5120:5 145:18229:10,17

ceilings113:18 119:8

census239:19

center1:5 3:2 28:12

44:11 49:963:9 125:14

239:23240:14 294:9

centers43:21 46:5

47:20 56:2157:3

centimeter49:23

central233:22

century239:20

certain9:20,21 47:17

62:16 95:1395:15 121:12158:3 176:13176:22 182:6215:1 218:21288:16

certainly48:20 152:2

165:23certification276:21

certified3:15 4:12,14

37:23 38:1960:23 61:2084:3 85:1,799:17 212:10216:22217:19,21259:22260:21,23267:7 272:19285:6 286:14

certify294:5

cfr264:7

chair3:5,11,19 11:4

15:4 27:6,827:15,1555:6 60:1861:4,5 69:869:16 82:483:21 84:786:13 92:2193:3 102:22103:12,17104:21 113:6128:11,23129:3,5132:4 134:19134:22141:20 153:9156:16 162:8162:12167:23 168:3168:4 174:18174:19177:14181:13,19,20186:6 192:6194:5 210:3210:7,9215:4 216:19217:3 236:16236:19,20242:7 259:19260:3 267:18271:20278:11279:23280:21282:11284:13287:19

chairman13:2 14:15,20

19:12 23:1030:16 31:634:1 37:1642:2 45:457:13 59:462:2,9 67:2169:6 85:1889:12 93:9

132:17139:12 145:4159:18 160:6170:19187:18 194:4212:13221:16,23222:4 228:2258:3,6259:1 267:1267:10 268:4272:14 286:8291:21

chairmans39:4

chairperson18:18 181:8

chairs125:10 162:14

challenges250:7

challenging236:3

champion268:18

chances157:9 207:6

change7:15 10:15

13:22 38:641:19 64:967:14 72:1376:8 81:887:11 88:1688:17 93:1393:23 94:1494:14 107:19110:20111:22112:19118:22 120:1129:8 132:22132:23136:23 138:9150:5 156:7156:8 157:3174:21,23175:3 195:11208:1 209:8221:17,21246:9 266:20271:7,8,11285:3 292:12

changed58:20,21 93:18

98:3 133:22196:6 222:13233:4 236:9243:12274:17281:13283:19284:19

changes40:21 62:10,11

94:15 114:15119:2 162:15168:11210:15227:20268:19 269:9269:17284:19

changing21:20 42:11

65:12 73:22119:4

chapter94:10 106:12

106:16,17107:9,10111:4 124:12125:1 128:22141:1 146:19147:2,9157:14160:21 162:3162:5 165:2190:4 191:11209:9,12

211:13213:15,16234:3 242:9242:22

chapters103:22 106:20

106:21107:15,17,20108:10,11182:4 194:7203:4 209:4210:17 211:9

character146:6,21

characteris...153:18 175:13

charge193:22

charitable56:2

cheater78:3

cheating75:18

checked149:4,6,7

chemical25:7,8,9 70:1

209:19chemicals66:12

chemistries68:12

chemistry25:11

chevron267:19 268:10

268:11269:22 270:6270:9 278:12280:13 287:6

chevrons270:21

chevronwide270:13

chicago293:7

chief199:10

chiefs116:16

children191:2

choice106:7 107:21

222:7 264:16choices256:13

choose288:17,17

chooses265:19 266:18

chose63:17 72:17

73:14 222:10chosen63:18 282:16

circuit281:5 283:20

284:23285:17

circulation245:17

circumstance96:7

circumstances95:13 96:1,18

110:16cite278:19

cited220:14 278:16

city246:20,22

civil247:5

claiming43:8 90:14

claims

42:10,12,1843:3 91:9

clarification92:17 109:5

117:14290:22

clarifications250:15

clarified130:11 192:15

clarify54:16 89:21

90:20 142:9290:2

clary3:4 4:13,20,22

7:23 11:212:23 14:1618:2,1319:10 21:1422:14,18,2123:4 24:325:20 26:227:1,5,1428:1,4,19,2329:8,1830:23 31:334:2 37:6,1438:23 41:2245:5 46:1548:3,8,1050:17 51:152:2,7,1353:19 54:154:21 57:1458:1 59:560:3,6 61:2262:5,7 64:1665:7,1367:19 69:269:14 70:572:2,7 75:477:17 78:879:9,15 80:480:12 81:581:10,15,2081:22 82:283:5

class5:2,7,8,12,12

5:16,23 6:146:14,17 7:38:16,19,228:23 9:3,169:20 10:1210:17 11:1111:18,21,2212:2,3,4,2113:10,11,1213:15,2214:3,4 16:816:14 19:1619:17,18,2219:22 20:1,220:5,6,823:12 24:1025:7,18 28:931:8 32:1332:21 33:2134:12,14,1534:17 35:535:12,1936:17 37:338:4,1142:13 44:444:19 45:1145:22 47:147:10,10,1750:22 52:2153:17 54:2055:7,14,15116:6

classification17:10 209:8,10

classrooms205:10

clause264:12

clean4:4 5:3 6:2,19

7:7 9:6,611:20 12:612:21 13:613:19 21:223:8 24:2332:13,1633:7,10 42:747:19 49:4

cleaning182:8

cleanup116:23

clear7:1 17:3 33:3

46:2 63:21120:19135:10138:19 148:6148:6 160:23176:15185:13273:20 274:5278:6,7

clearly33:16 40:8

59:13 121:1126:15145:15 177:2189:9 191:4225:14 263:3

client22:5,11 97:2

105:4 153:19181:10 184:4

clinical188:16 189:2,5

189:9,12,13189:17,19190:10,22191:5,15,17192:14 194:9194:17,20,21195:6 196:6196:12200:13,17

clock41:5

close33:19 51:20

94:23 187:10275:23

closed30:12 51:19

82:23 159:15180:13 290:4290:8,17293:14,15

closely236:23

closest134:15

closing38:18 41:8

238:15clue278:3

co29:2 16:1,11

37:18 39:17coalition138:7

coat115:23 176:19

coated63:22,23 75:21

75:23,2376:3,4,21114:21115:18 116:5119:10

coating75:19 78:17

115:2,3118:17,18119:3 120:3175:19

coatings61:13 71:15

77:21 78:18117:7 118:5

5

118:5,6coats114:23 120:18

coauthored43:4

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4:12 51:2360:23 61:161:21 84:3,485:1,7 103:7171:14173:14 202:4215:9 216:22216:23255:17259:23,23260:21,23269:6,11271:2 293:1

motivation271:3

mounting17:6

move30:20 47:13,15

62:4 68:2283:2,10 85:585:20 87:2288:4,9 89:589:10,1499:9 104:12105:1,5109:2,12,15123:22 124:3131:6 132:2139:6,10151:23159:16,20166:8,16170:21 179:8179:16187:16,21201:19 202:1202:17211:20212:11,15,17216:5,11217:20 218:9218:13 227:8230:15,21235:19 240:8249:15254:11 255:4255:13 257:7258:13 261:4267:12,16,20277:10 279:8280:8,11291:16,17

moved65:21

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219:18 247:5247:7,11

movie205:10

moving53:20 60:6

99:13,20163:12,16169:7,11179:11 212:1227:1 249:4256:7

msl200:2

muddies91:23

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myriad116:22

Nnafra62:4 75:7

80:15 85:20114:13120:15159:19166:16 167:3170:20 171:8212:14215:14222:21228:13229:23

255:12 256:1257:1,7

nahb235:15

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190:22 191:5191:15,17196:6 201:11213:5 241:15254:4,9270:22274:15,15276:9 287:9287:13,17,18

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283:13284:10

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236:23negotiate241:11

negotiating241:6

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newer67:11 205:12

208:8

18

newman70:7,8 80:6,6

256:9,10nfpa1:3 3:1 4:3

5:11 12:1512:18 13:417:8 19:4,1421:12 23:123:21 28:1732:14 33:1,438:2 42:544:12,1845:12 46:1846:21 48:1455:5,13 57:861:11 64:2169:7,8 70:2371:4,14,2179:13 81:1883:2 84:1690:5 97:17110:11 145:8147:2 171:12171:20180:21183:19,21185:14 186:2186:6,7,11203:4 212:5212:8 216:11217:11 220:7220:8,20221:20 223:3223:4,5224:3,3,4,6224:10,10225:15228:16 231:2231:18232:19,20233:22 234:3234:9,22235:17238:10,17,18241:20 242:7242:16,22245:10 251:5251:9 252:1252:8,16,20254:2 258:9259:3,12260:10262:22263:19 264:2264:3 265:12265:16 266:9266:15 267:3270:6 272:16277:10286:10 292:6292:8,15

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243:16 250:4nice125:8,11

night48:22,22 49:3

49:15 206:9207:16,18

nist24:6 25:6

28:21 43:543:13 44:1448:5,1757:17

nitmam5:6 7:5 8:5

13:8,1214:14 42:944:22 47:1447:23 52:1770:10 72:175:3 77:480:7 81:487:17,18186:8

nominal14:7 40:21

41:19nominally16:22,23 40:10

40:10 49:10noncombustible230:11

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170:11 179:5254:22,23

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168:22 198:8norm205:6

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200:23221:15

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192:9 198:7233:21235:10 258:7262:7

noted23:18,21

141:18292:14

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numbered113:3 278:21

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210:18nursing127:22 137:16

137:21 138:6138:22 163:4163:22 164:3166:1 168:22169:17 198:2240:10

Oobjected161:11

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observation16:13 129:21

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151:4 190:15197:12

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108:14 129:1129:6,10,19130:8 133:3133:5 134:23135:5 140:11146:19,21150:12160:11 162:9162:20 163:1164:1,3,21

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occupancy103:22 106:20

106:21,23107:4,10,15107:16,20108:1,10,11124:15 126:4128:2,22140:12,15142:14,20143:1 144:5144:16145:16,21,22146:1,5,20146:22 147:1148:11150:13,19,23151:1,3,8154:14 162:5165:19 181:1188:15 193:2193:8 203:6204:5,7208:2 209:7209:9,14213:13,13,14214:18,19215:16,18234:13

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130:13146:14188:18205:14

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199:9,12220:23226:14 227:6

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23:17 48:2250:9 164:16196:4 257:20

older160:20 208:3

239:21 240:2oldest235:23

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once33:10 73:2

74:9,12 82:5136:22139:11147:12154:20 257:3

onebyone254:5

onehour157:8

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198:16 282:6288:7,8,10288:12289:19 291:8

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286:6 289:23opened126:15 133:11

157:4opening100:10,18,20

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281:15operation95:15

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103:8,18142:7 223:8277:18

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opposition

19

14:22 39:358:4 143:14143:15183:22222:21223:21233:15264:21 267:7272:19273:19286:13289:17

option73:13 130:6

152:15 153:2191:12,21

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274:17 276:8276:10,11278:3,16,18278:20,21,23279:3

outbreak96:16

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outside

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284:12overview274:9

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ozone16:4,5,5

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268:22particulates137:12

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246:7 264:9281:6,16283:7,20285:1,17287:16

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245:17patient145:10 163:3

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188:17 189:4190:13197:10200:13

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149:8 152:11people5:22 6:1,9

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17:5 28:1631:21 98:1398:13,15,1598:16,16138:6 150:17150:18 151:1198:5 270:21

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44:16 62:16

62:17,2191:2,16 94:2172:15,18174:2,3,7175:8,9,12178:17 180:9180:14

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201:17208:13232:18

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plumbing149:3,8

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point20:9 36:15

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109:6 162:19168:14175:16177:14 195:3222:23

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129:22194:16221:17

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10:4,15

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101:18102:11

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239:1

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22

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reported12:15 19:1

22:10 33:1238:11 240:2

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153:12 176:9183:3 185:1185:2 246:7253:15

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214:19request292:1

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40:4,13 63:563:6 66:1676:15,1678:2 92:5

115:5 119:5130:10135:18140:17146:18160:21 162:4163:6,16164:18 165:2169:1,11180:20182:12186:10188:11189:21 190:1190:3,11,12190:16,19191:9,16,23195:1 197:17208:19229:14 230:8230:10234:21238:11,12,16238:23242:18 246:6247:3 263:9263:16265:18266:10,16272:4 274:13288:6,15,20291:7

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68:17 81:2115:19 141:1244:15251:20 284:1

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206:19 208:5208:11

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242:15respectful

23

287:8respond64:18 133:19

193:4 206:1responded18:23 206:4

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55:9 88:2394:1 132:21132:21 188:7285:21

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18:4 20:2036:2 42:1461:17 84:20131:22144:17191:19217:15260:17

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161:2 218:23retardant61:13 68:2,11

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retardanttr...61:12 62:14

64:1 65:2066:8,11,1569:20 71:1573:6 74:2075:2 76:2,2276:23 77:1381:2 114:19114:21115:15,17,18117:22 118:1118:4,7119:5,23121:6,7,23121:23 219:3219:6 220:10222:12,16224:4,7226:5 228:8229:13257:17

retested9:22 111:21

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retroactive188:11 190:12

190:19 191:9191:23 226:3

retrofit248:16

retrospect47:2

return4:19 10:9

29:20 30:830:20 51:351:16 55:14105:5,9,20109:6,15,20123:17179:16,20187:1 215:3227:5,6,8230:18269:10 293:1

returned8:7,7

returning180:22 218:13

reverse281:2

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wishes10:9

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withdraw99:17 218:6

withstand176:13,22

wonder128:13 153:14

271:17wonderful127:23

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226:6 251:5268:5

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274:13,14,21283:10

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worldwide270:13,17

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worse17:17

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1052:8 91:3

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118:18120:17

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121:15 3:3

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2:91392:14 95:1

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40:6 56:958:6 68:972:11 86:9268:14287:12 294:9

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1960s247:6

1970s247:7

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1990s6:12 43:14

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2030239:22

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208135:19

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20to1124:18

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212711:19

2162:14

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30minute66:16 67:2

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33214:4 244:23

245:2332272:4 278:16

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90s6:22 14:6

44:1796182:10

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1 annual 2011 nfpa association technical meeting … · 1 the afternoon session of the nfpa...

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