13641. albert john luthuli, under former oath; mr ......13641. court rjsumjs cn th^ 18th m/iy, i960....

13641.

COURT RJSUMJS CN TH^ 18TH M/iY, I960.

ALBERT JOHN LUTHULI, under former oath; CROSS--X.UIKL.TION BY MR. TRJNGOV^ CONTINUED s

Mr. Luthuli, just before going on to other ma;ters, I want to put a few questions to you. In connec-tion with the \'i;e&tern .reas, you wanted to peruse once against this pr^ss release, T.jJ.T. 50. Now you have done that, haven't you? Yes, My Lords, I have. 5

Now do you want t qualify the evidence that you have given about the Western Areas in any way as a result of having read this press release again?

Well, I wonder whether the Crown wouldn't - well I am "bring that in connection with another statement, I 10 wonder....

Is there anything in this that you want to comment on in connection with your evidence on the Western Areas? Yes, there is. My Lords, I wanted to point out that insofar as this release is concerned and it is 15 a release as the Crown said, "by the Congresses, it indicates the attitude of the Congresses in my view very clearly regarding th~ contuance of policy. Beginning on page 2, My Lords, after making a call to the citizens of South Africa to take part in the campaign, and 20

calling upon the volunteers to do their work, at the end there is this % "Our Volunteers must carry throughout the country the message of the coming Congress of the People and must gather in the demands of the people for the Freedom Charter which is to be adopted at the 25 Congress of the People. Our Volunteers must meet the rcfikless violence and reliance on force of the Nationalist government with discipline, a refusal to be provoked,

13642. (A.J. LUTHULI)

but a determination to carry on their struggle until our liberty is won." I suggest, My Lord, that this breathes the spirit in which the Volunteers everywhere were to work, and the Western Areas of course was part of the Resist-Apartheid Campaign, My lord. 5

And the reckless violence, what was that? Well,My Lords, there - the reference there to reck-

less violence in my view has reference to a view which is held that sometimes the government act - or its agents, the police, act in a way which in our opinion 10 would n~>t be justified. That is the view, I have already said so.

Th. t is what you mean by the reckless violence? Yes, My Lords.

Mr. Luthuli, otherwise you subscribe to 15 everything th t is said in that press release? — - Yes, otherwise I think I do.

Now Mr. Luthuli, His Lordship Mr. Justice Bekker asked you whether this report of the National iixecutive to the Bloemfontein Conference in 1955 con- 20 tained in L.L.M. 81 and J.P.M. 15, whether you had

knowledge of that report. You have studied this document? No, My Lords, I must say that I couldn't do so yesterday. I have not done so, I am sorry.

You difin't study L.L.M. 81? No, as 25 well as the other one. There were two documents given me, that report as well as the Secretariat's Report.

Is that A. 162? Yes. bo those you haven't - you can't reply to

questions on those? No. 30 Mr. Luthuli, you also wanted an opportunity

to consider the thr _e articles in -'Liberation", the


article by Mandela on the Liberal Party, the article in reply to that by Professor Price and the article by Ruth First on the Constitutional Fallacy (?). You have studied those articles? I have, My Lord.

Is there anything that you want to add to 5 the comment that you have already made? There is, My Lord.

My Lords, the Liberation - Mandela on the Liberal Party is L.B. 43, and the two other Liberations My Lords, are Liberation of September, 1953, under the 10 series G. 1150, and under the same series, the Liberation of November, 1953. Well, Mr. Luthuli, perhaps we can carry on, and during the tea interval you might find your notes? Yes, I have my notes, I have just missed them now. 15

Mr. Luthuli, I want to ask you two further questions in regard to the Volunteers. Now you have said that you have no knowledge of what the lectures were that wore used for the political education of the Volunteers, is that correct? That is correct, My 20 Lords.

So that you can't give any evidence as to the political instruction and education that was given to the 50,000 volunteers that were being raised at your special request? I can, My Lords, in a general way. 25

You see, you were at this meeting at Fraser's Station in August, 1954? That is correct.

That was just after the Western Areas Campaign had started, and just after your visit to the Rand? That is correct. 30

And just after you had been banned, that is correct, is it not? That is correct.

13643. (a.J. LUTHULI)

Now at that meeting this Exhibit G. 478 which is the Report from the National Volunteer Board - at that meeting this document was found by the police when they arrived at the premises where your meeting was being held, do you remember that, that the police arrived there? 5

I remember, My Lord. i'hey took certain documents that were there?

I recall, My Lord. Now have a look at this G. 478, that is

the Report to the National Volunteer Board? Do you 10 recognise it? My Lords, I would have difficulty in saying that I rocognise this particular document, because there might have been quite a number of documents, but I would have nothing to say...

But the purpose of that meeting at Fraser's 15 Station inter alia was to consider a report, from the National Volunteer Board, was it not? Well, that is - that would be correct, that would be one of the things that would be considered, yes. I would not recall really how far the items were dealt with that day, I 20 don't recall. It is quite possible that this may have been dealt with, I wouldn't remember.

In any event, you were a member of the National Volunteer Board? Yes.

And that report came from the National 25 Volunteer Board? Well, as it is stated.

ixnd whether or not it was discussed, the object was that that report would be discussed there that day? It was a report to the group of people that were meeting there? It is quite natural that 30 the report would be discussed, wtether it was discussed or not, it was quite legitimate for it to come up.


Do you remember being party to the drafting of that report? No, I don't recall being a party to drawing up the report, no.

Did you ever see that report? I don't recall, I have already said. 5

No, not that specific document, but a document with those contents? No, My Lords, I don't recall. I could have.

Would you look at paragraph 9 of that document, Mr. luthuli, the second page. What does that 10 deal with? Study classes.

imd lectures? Yes. "It is of the highest importance that all Volunteers should be given intensive study classes on all aspects of South African political and economic life. Lectures are being 15 prepared and will be available".

Now you say you can only give evidence in a general way as to what the political indoctrination of the Volunteers was going to be? That is correct.

And what is that? What was that going to 20 be? Well, My Lords, I would say that whatever educa-tion would be given, would be within Congress policy. It would cover the laws under which the African people suffer. Those are some of the items I am sure that would be dealt with. It would undoubtedly also give 25 them an idea of the struggles of other people. That is in a general way.

Now Mr. Luthuli, you see from that report to the Board of which I think you were - you were I think the Chairman of the National Volunteer Board. 30 You see the importance attached to the study classes and the lectures, and you say in a general way you knew what


they were to contain? What did the National Volunteer Board say who had to prepare these lectures? My Lords, I could not say. All I would say in this regard is this, that it should be appreciated that we are a scattered group, and I think that fact is very important 5 to bear in mind. We don't possibly work as neatly as some political organisations might, but even with those organisations, I wonder whether My Lords, really it is....

Mr. Luthuli, I am not criticising the way that you are working. I just want to know a simple 10 question. If you look at the circulars that were issued to Volunteers on lecturing, one of the duties of the Volunteers is to give simple direct answers to questions. A4ow as Volunteer-in-Chief I just want a simple direct answer to a question. Who were the people...? I 15 do no t know.

ktere people appointed to prepare lectures? My Lords, I do not recall.

You don't know who they were, you don't know whether people were appointed, you don't know 20 what the lectures were, you never saw them...? There was a group responsible for that, surely.

Vvho was that? There would be a group as appointed by those in committee, surely.

Viho? I can't give you the names, I 25 have already indicated.

how why can't you give the names? Have you forgotten them? My Lords, I have forgotten the names, but I would say for an example to give you one name, - not that he prepared the lectures. Mr. Mandela 30 was one of the chief men before he was banned, and I would expect him to be in such a committee, surely. But


I can't recall the names. Was the position that the people who were

going to prepare the lectures were some or other of the members of the National Volunteer Board? Not neces-sarily, no. I wouldn't go to that extent.

Now let us just getthis straight, Mr. Luthuli You can't remember the names of the individuals? No.

Can you remember how the people who were going to prepare the lectures, how they were to be selec-ted? Were they a committee out of one or more organisa- 1 tions or what was the position going to be? Were they members of the National Volunteer Board or who were theyK

My Lords, I don't recall that at all. Now, Mr. Luthuli, the Crown will have to

comment on it, but can you explain how you as Volunteer- 1 in-Chief of the most important group of people in the liberatory struggle, they are called the "Top Brigade" of the liberatory movement, the Volunteers. They are called the "Shock Brigade", they are specially selected as being vital to the liberatory struggle, Why is it 2 that you know nothing of one of the most important aspects of their training, and that is their political education?

Can you explain it? Well, I started to explain and at that juncture the Crown said no, answer yes or no. I will later, if you wish. 2

Could you explain now? I have tried to indicate My Lords that when we arrive at a decision, it might be say at Executive level, then the matter is left with - in the normal course of things, that is talking of the A.N.C., it is left with the Working 3 Committee to work out, and the Working Committee might itself appoint a Secretariat to deal with it, and surely


My Lords, it doesn't seem to me the fact that I do not know who may have done the thing, as long as I am satis-fied that it is being done, unless I am suspicious of people, would "be regarded as gross ignorance of my organisationl 5

Mr. Luthuli, there is no question of a Working Committee here? No, I am trying to indicate how we work, so that having decided that there should be a study group, the actual mechanics of seeing that that thing is done would not rest on me, but it would 10 r^st on a responsible committee, and I have to talk of the Working Committee because that is the Working Commit-tee of the African National Congress.

No, Mr. Luthuli, that is not the position, and you know very well tht,t is not the position. The 15 National Volunteer Board consisted of members of the various Congress movements? That is quite correct, yes.

Now who were the members of the National Volunteer Board? Just before I reply to you, let me 20 say this, I'll just give you an illustration of how we work. senior body starts and delegates...

Yes, we know all that, Mr. Luthuli. We want to know how the National Volunteer Board worked?

You took me back to it, that is why I was referring 25 back to it. Now I do not remember the names of the Volunteer Board, but insofar as this aspect of the campaign was concerned, there would be the National iiction Council, which was a kind of co-ordinating body.

Yes, but now leave that out for the 30 moment. There was a body, the National Volunteer Board, was there not? There was.


You were a member of that Board? I was. How many other memberswere there? I do

not know. You don't even know how many other members?

I don't remember. 5 Bid you ever meet as a Board? My Lords,

I don't think that we ever met as a Board, because just about this time, that was the time that I was banned, I don't remember that we ever met as a Board, I don't recall at all that - that I was present at a Board 10 meeting.

You don't know if you ever attended any meetings of the Volunteer Board? I don't recall.

And that report from the National Volunteer Board, from whom does that cogie? It would come from 15

the repponsible body? From the National Volunteer Board? Is

that correct? Who were the representatives of the African National Congress on the National Volunteer Board? I

20 have already said that I don't remember.

You don't even know that? I said I don't remember.

So apart from the fact that you didn't attend meetings of the National Volunteer Board, do you 2 5 know if the National Volunteer Board ever met? My Lords, I wouldn't know. At that time I was not mobile, so I wouldn't know.

Mr. Luthuli, it has got nothing to do with your mobility. You met at Fraser's Atation, didn't you? We did. ^

•f'-nd at Fraser's Station members of various organisations met? We did.

13649. I A a J . LUTHULI)

Were they not the members of the National Volunteer Board? The Fraser meeting, My Lord, consis-ted of the Joint Executives, My Lo d, if I recall, it wasn't a meeting of the Volunteer Board. Some of those people there could be members of the Volunteer Board, 5

but that was not a meeting of the Volunteer Board, it was a meeting of the joint congresses.

So that your mobility didn't prevent meetings being held, which you attended? You attended this one?

My Lords, that was an important meeting, what I am 10 trying to say is that I couldn't be expected in that condition just to be attending all committee meetings, it doesn't matter if I may belong to that committee. This was a meeting of the fi)oint Executives to have a review of the whole situation. I don't think it is 15 reasonable to expect that in that condition all committee meetings would have to come to the coast.

Mr. Luthuli, as chairman of the National Volunteer Board... BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF ; 20

ere you chairman of the National Volunteer Board? I think My Lords, I could have been appointed chairman, I wouldn't deny that. BYMR. TRENGOVE s

Lid you ever receive any report of any 25 activity of the National Volunteer Board? I could have, I don't recall.

You don't know? I could have. But you don't know, you can't remember?

I do not recall. One receives so many documents, I have 30 already indicated, that I don't honestly recall. I don't like to say that I did and I did not.


Now Mr. Luthuli, did you of your own initiative, did you ever take steps to bring any matter to the attention of the National Volunteer Board for action to be taken by them? No.

Where were the offices of the National 5 Volunteer Board? The National Volunteer Board, My Lords, was not a separate organisation, it was part of the machinery.

That we know? It would be in Johannes- 10 burg. 10

In the A.N.3. offices? In Johannesburg. In the ii.N.C. offices? Or don't you know

that? I wouldn't know that. The provinces, each had a Volunteer Board,

is that correct? That is correct. 15 And you had a TSarasvaal Volunteer Board?

That would be correct. Do you know any of the members on that

Board? No, I don't. Would it be possible to refresh your 20

memory or did you never know who the members were? I wouldn't know about the Transvaal, no.

Mr. Luthuli, what do you know about this special brigade established at your instance to be the spearhead of the liberatory movement? What do you 25 know except in a general sense about their activities?

I know that it existed, I know that in terms of our desire the various provinces organised and that they tried to recruit, and I know in a general - and I am satisfied the work did go on to the extent that we were 30

> making an effort to have it go on, I am perfectly satisfied.


Mr. Luthuli, I want to read to you a speech made in connection with the Volunteers. You know that they were recruited at meetings, and at this - at meetings this call for Volunteers mere made to people attending the meetings. Do you remember that? My Lords, that 5 was not the only way of recruiting Volunteers.

I am not suggesting that it is the only way, Mr. Lucbuli. If you look at that G. 978, if you look at the fo jt cf that document, you will see that Volunteers have to be recruited at meetings? That is quite cor- 10 rect.

Well, I never suggested that it was the only way. This speech was made by Ndimba. Do you know Ndimba from the Eastern Gape? I do, My Lord.

Now this is what he said at Volume 50, 15 page 9915 : "We are aware of the fact that people who oppress us are loafers. God created every human being to work for himself, not for another man. I appeal to the oppressed people to believe in communism system. The Communist government is doing what the people says. 20 The prjsent government imposed the Bantu .Education Act because he wants to make the African children ignorant. He ha'- noticed that we want to abolish the capitalist government. Let us boycott schools. The government and the local authorities are leading the Africans to 25

bloodshed. I want to warn the local authorities if they regard the Africans as animals, not very long we are going to show them that we are not animals. If the Union Government wants to declare war, he must apply to the nations of Africans and Asian people. Chief 30 Luthuli has called for 50,000 volunteers to spread the voice of the oppressed people. We are not afraid of

13652. J. LUTHULI)

the White people. I want to appeal to the African people to support the Congress of the People. We must change this government to a democratic government. Let us move forward to freedom. Let us demand our co ntry by force, and Volunteer to be strong. If the instructions are given 5 to Vojunteers to kill, theymust kill. If a man does not want South Africa, he must go out of this country." Now Mr. luthuli, that meeting was held on the 1st May, 1955, at Axrsten. Do you agree with that speech? The porjxon read, My Lords, I find... 10

The whole speech, I read the whole speech as uaken down? There are portions that I don't agr^e with, My Lord. It is true that in the African National Congress people hold different views. I think thai, has already been brought out by me in my evidence 15 in chiei and in cross-examination. Now I do not know whj,t Mr. Ndimba might have had in mind when he appealed to the people to accept communisgi. Certainly if he holds tbft view, it wouldn't be right to propagate it in a "ongress platform. That is one attitude which I hold 20

^nd I am most critical of it. The Congress platform of course is to carry out those things on which we are agreed. Then the second, My Lords, would be - when he indicates "Let us demand our coun ry by force", there of course you can have two interpretations. It could 25 be force in the sense of increasing our pressure. If he meant that, I am with him, fully. But on the other hand of course if he meant force, demanding it by force, implying violent force, naturally I would condemn it. 30

And his statement that if Volunteers were given instructions to kill, theymust kill? That I


would condemn, My Lords, with this qualification. It depends upon the context. Sometimes a person may say, may use an expression like that meaning that the Volunteers must obey the order of a superior, merely meaning that. Now, just exactly what he means there 5 I wouldn't know, but I wouldn't - I don't like the expre^cion, unless it is clear that you are merely emphasising that well a volunteer must obey orders in the normal course of things of a person obeying orders. But if it is intended to mean kill, naturally I don't 10 approve of it. It is a rather dangerous statement to use, I think.

Mr. Luthuli, was the discipline that was expected of volunteers - did the discipline go to the extent th^ if Volunteers are told to kill, they must 15 be prepared to obey that order? No, My Lord.

Bow do you know? I know within the context of our policy and understanding.

But you don't know what happenedat the meetings of the National Volunteer Board? My Lords, 20 I must hi\e confidence in my organs, unless the contrary is shown, I must have confidence in the officials unless the contrary is shown, surely.

Yes, but you never enquired as to what instructions were being given to Volunteers? It 25 defends upon an attitude of mind and an attitude of person. Persorally if a person is in authority and doing a certain thing, my reaction to it is to have confidence in that person, unless the contrary can be shown. 30

Now Mr. Luthuli, assuming that a responsible member of the African National Congress, like an Executive


Member of the National Body, assuming that such a person was present at a meeting like this, where this statement was made, "you must take the country by force", and "if you are told to kill you must kill„% how would a respon-sible member of the National Body react to a statement 5 like this? What would he do? Would he condemn that? How should he react? Assuming that some member of the National Executive was present at a meeting like this?

My Lords, I think that an Executive Member who would be present at a meeting like this, would call 10 Mr. Ndimba's attention to the fact that some remarks that he has said in his view are contrary to policy, and if Mr. Ndimba or anybody else would show that he holds to those views, then he would have to report to the ne£t responsible body, either the Executive or the 15 Working Committee of that particular area.

You see, this particular speech was made in public. Now would you expect a member of the National executive, when a speaker makes a statement like this, ;,let us demand our country by force and 20 volunteer to be strong. If instructions are given to volunteers to kill, they must kill", would you expect a member of the National Executive in those circumstances to tell the public now look here, don't misunderstand the position, this isn't Congress view, and this is 25 not Congress policy. Mr. Ndimba is wrong in telling us that we must take the country by force? My Lords, if the Executive member at that meeting would come to f^el that way, he should.

You would expect that? He should, 30 yes, if he would co$e to feel that way, but as I have said, My Lor Is, sometimes it is on reflection that you


come to see the seriousnessof a thing. You wouldn't expect a member of the

National Executive to applaud this type of speech and to agree with it? Personally I wouldn't.

If the policy is non-violent? Personally 5 I wouldn't.

Do you know Ndimba's position in the African National Congress at that time? No My Lords, I wouldn't know.

Do you accept that he wasan Executive 10 member of the local branch? I don't recall, I don't

' \

know, My Lords. I know that he was an official, but I can't say in what capacity.

Now Mr. Luthuli, at this stage I would like to put another speech to you which is similar, and it is 15 a speech that was made by Resha. My Lords, I was wondering if for the benefit of the witness I could play that portion of the tape to him where Resha makes this speech, it is in Exhibit G. 1089« The speech was on the 22nd November, 1956, and it is in Volume 41, at page 20 8149 of the record. Mr. Luthuli, I would now ask you to listen to a tape recording of a speech made by Resha on the 22nd November, 1956. The speech was made at 37 West Street, which was the offices of the African National Congress, is that correct, those were the 25 offices? That is correct.

And Mr. Luthuli, it was a secret meeting, at which only certain delegates who presented their credentials were allowed to be present. I am playing a portion of the meeting only, that is the whole of 30 Resha's speech as taken down on the tape. Now I just want to give you the transcript. It was a secret meeting,


according to the evidence, called for the specific pur-pose . TAPE RECORDING OF R^SHA'S 3P JECH PLAYED TO WITNESS.

Mr. Luthuli, you have listened to what the Crown alleges to be the voice of Resha who was really 5 the Supreme Commander of the 50,000 top brigade of volunteers. Now would you just - you heard this speech?

I have, My Lords. Do you agree that it is a subversive speech?

It is a speech inciting people to violent action? 10 My Lords, I will not say subversive because I don't know the legal meaning, but it is a violent speech, it is a very violent speech.

Did you hear the reaction of the people to whom he was speaking? Yes, I heard. 15

And what was that reaction? They applauded.

Now Mr. Luthuli, that was a meeting at which Moretsele was the Chairman, A. P. Moretsele. He was the chairman, you can accept that for a moment, he - 20 that is the evidence of the Crown? Yes.

He was at that stage also chairman of the Transvaal A.N.C.? That is correct.

He was also a member of the National Executive? That is correct. 25

The evidence of the Crown will also be that at that meeting Leslie Masina was present. The evidence of the Crown is that Leslie Masina was present. He was a senior member in the African National Congress?

That is correct. 30 And for many years an ^x^cutive member?

Of the African National Congress, the National Executive?


I would not know for how long. In 195 5? Yes, I think he was a member. He was also General Secretary of the South

African Congress of Trade Unions? That is correct. During that period? That is correct. 5 The evidence of the Crown is also that

Nkadimeng was at that meeting. He was a member of the A.N.C. Secretariat over a period of years, including 1956? My Lords, he was a member...

Of the Transvaal Secretariat? I wouldn'tlO know, My Lords.

He was a member of the National Volunteer Board of the African National Congress in 1955? I wouldn't know, My Lords.

He was a member of the National Executive 15 of the South African Congress of Trade Unions? I can only say I think so, I wouldn't know.

The evidence also is that at that meeting the Accused Nokwe was present. He was appointed Assistant Secretary-General of the African National 20 Congress in 1956? That is correct, My Lord.

And he was a member of the Transvaal Executive? I wouldn't know.

He was a member of the - he was National S^cretaryof the African National Congress Youth League? 25

Yes, I think he was, although I am not so definite. And he was a member of the National

Working Committee of the A.N.C.? Yes, he would be, My Lord.

Mr. Luthuli, the evidence also is that this 30 m eting was attended by delegates of African National Congress Branches throughout the Rand, places like Moroka


Orlando, Sophiatown, to the West as far as Randfontein. Row do you know why these people tolerated this violent speech and applauded it? No, My Lords, I wouldn't know.

Is it entirely inconsistent with your 5 alleged policy of non-violence? In parts it is, yes.

Now Mr. Luthuli, did any of the members of the National Executive or anybody ever take any steps about this speech? My Lords, I wouldn't know to what extent the Executive - the National Executive became 10 aware of the speech. I wouldn't know. I was not aware of it, I don't know how many were aware of it, other than those who were there at the meeting, I wouldn't know.

Nov/ having listened to the speech, are you 15 shocked to hear that a speech of this nature was made?

There are some parts that shock me. Therj are some parts what one might call a fighting speech, but there are some parts that I absolutely don't like at all.

Now can you explain why the - can you give 2e any reason why people of the position of Moretsele, Masina, Nkadimeng, Nokwe and the other delegates of the African National Congress, why they would applaud that type of speech if th~ policy of the African National Congress is a non-violent one? Well, My Lords, I 25 have already expressed my view on some parts, and I have also said that in fact people applauded it. Whether I would be fair to say so and so and so and so applauded it, I wouldn't go as far as that.

According to the evidence, Mr. Luthuli, 30 nobody at that meeting, according to the evidence of the Crown at this stage, nobody dissociated themselves


at that meeting with ^ny part of that speech? That is possible, I meant applauding.

Y.ould that type of conduct be consistent with an organisation which has a non-violent policy? I have already indicated my view thit there are some 5 parts which I condemn.

Now the attitude of the other people there, who know the policy of the African National Congress? My Lord, naturally I cannot explain for people who were there just what their reaction was as individuals and so 10 on, that I can't explain.

You see, Mr. Luthuli, if the Volunteer-in-Chief makes that type of speech, who is in a better position to know what the duties are of a volunteer than the Volunteer-in-Chief? Oh no, th:;t doesn't follow 15 If I may make an illustration, My Lords, I don't know about army technique and things like that, but surely if a General were to do something that is not right, I don't think it can be said that because the General, therefore in fact the -whole policy must now bo aligned to what 20 that particular general who is wrong, does. I wouldn't accept that proposition.

I am not asking you to approve of what he did. I vant to know who was in a batter position than Resha to know what the duties of a Volunteer are? Was 25 there any person in a better position than Resha? No, thert wouldn't be any person in a better position than Resha to know the duties, that is true, that is quite true.

And I put it to you Mr. Luthuli that Resha 30 made this speech and he gave those instructions to the Volunteers because that was exactly what Volunteers were


expected to do? And you know that? I don't. I don't. Because Ties ha would be expected to lead the Volunteers along the policy of Congress. Now if Resha aa a general departs, he departs as Resha. It has nothing to do with the policy of the African National Congress, definitely. 5

And judging by the reaction of the people whom he addressed, do you think they thought he was departing from policy? My Lords, it is difficult to say abuut the whole meeting, a group of people. No doubt it was a time when feelings were very high, and their 10 applauding actuated by the feeling in the circumstances might be interpreted as approving. On the other hand, My Lord, insofar as the meeting applauding, it would not necessarily be to say they are applauding the violent aspects. My Lord, I wouldn't really go as far as that. 15 As I nave already indicated, I don't approve, it would be contrary to Congress policy, and if they were applauding that part, then they are wrong. But on the other hand, My Lords, I think I am right in saying it was a time when the feelings of the people were high and therefore they 20 could havo been - applauding, actuated by the emotions of tne times, not necessarily saying we are for going Congress policy. I am talking now of the crowd as a whole, My Lord.

But surely Mr. Luthuli you have read the 25 evidence of what was said at that whole meeting? I have, My Lords.

So that today you know exactly how this speech fits in with what was said by everybody else at that meeting? Well, of course I don't know what was 30 said by the other people.

But you read the whole - everything at the


meeting? I thought this was Resha's speech. Yes. But not this morning. You prepared

yourself to come to Court on this meeting. You heard this evidence at the Preparatory Examination? My Lords, at the Preparatory Examination, really, my knowledge 5 would he very, v,-ry hazy. For instance now if this speech was read at the Preparatory Examination, I don't recall. I do remember... BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF i

Well, apart from the Preparatory Examina- 10 tion, forget about that. The question is really, before you gave evidence in this Court in chief, did you read the proceedings at this meeting? My Lord, I wouldn't recall that I read that. I don't recall that I read the proceedings at this meeting, I may have, but 15 I don't recall at all. COURT ADJOURNS.

COURT R-JSU1VES. ALB .CRT JOHN LUTHULI, urTer former oath; CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TRENGOVE CONTINUED ;

Mr. Luthuli, there is just one other name that I want to give you as a person who spoke after Resha, according to the Crown's evidence, and that was P. Mathole, Accused No. 8. You know Mathole too? I do, Mv Lord.

And atthat stage he was a member of the National Executive of the A.N.C. ih 1956 was he not? Yes, he was.

And finally Mr. Luthuli, the chairman concluded the meeting by telling the people "what has been discussed here this evening I have confidence in


you, you will carry all those instructions out, you will prepare yourselves as you have heard speakers preparing for you". Now Mr. Luthuli, do I understand you correctly that you say that the only explanation you can give for the speech that Resha made was that he was deviating 5 from policy "because he was inciting or making a violent speech? That is correct, My Lord.

And you can't suggest any reason why in those circumstances he should have done it? My Lords, I wouldn't be able to say why in those circumstances he 10 did it, and I don't like to advance excuses at all. I have said in general it was a tense moment, but I should think that even in a tense moment a responsible person should be able to hold himself.

Well, you heard his voice, you know his 15 voice? Yes, I know his voice.

And you heard the way in which he was saying these things? I have.

.iid it was a calculated speech, he was called upon to give the volunteers their duties as Volunteer-in 20 Chief, is that correct? That is correct.

Now I put it to you Mr. Luthuli, and I want to step off it, that either you had no knowledge of Volunteer activities at all, or that you don't want to disclose what the natureof the Volunteer duties are, 25 and that was - and what Resha said, that was exactly what was expected of Volunteers? My Lords,nl cannot stop the Crown making its allegations, but I think that

\

the lasi allegation when they say I don't want to dis-close is not a justified one. I mean if I - I try to 30 say to the very best of my ability to say what things I know, those that I don't know I say I don't know.


And I have indicated that insofar as the African National Congress is concerned and that is correct, it expects the Volunteers to carry out policy, and I have indicated that insofar as this particular speech is concerned, whatever position Mr. Resha mighthave held, 5 it did not reflect correctly at all the policy of the organisation. It was along violent lines and it would mislead. I cannot understand the prosecutor saying I am holding back.

Mr. Luthuli, I want to pass onnto the 10 Anti-Pass Campaign. Nov*' the Anti-Sass Campaign organised by the Congresses which part andparcel of the greater Anti-Apartheid Campaign,is that correct? That is correct.

And it was also part of the greater stru^.e 15 for liberation? That is correct.

And in that sense the purpose and object of the Anti-Pass Campaign was the same as that of the cam-paign in the Western Areas. It was part of the whole liber-;,tory struggle and part of exerting pressure on 20 the government in order to achieve the aims of the liberation movement? That is correct, except that of course in the Western iruas you were dealing with a more complete and immediate situation.

You explained in your evidence in chief 25 why the people - the African people feel bitter about passes. Now I don't want to enter into the merits of that. Bat the African National Congress embarked on this campaign as part of the bigger struggle? Th .t would be correct, My Lord. 30

Mr. Luthuli, the National Consultative Committee in October, 1956, produced a document on the


Struggle Against Passes, do you remember that? My Lords, it is^M.B^Y. 13 and P.H.S. 64. Do you know about that Report to the National Consultative Committee Mr. Luthuli? You remember the National Consultative Committee drawing up that Report on the Struggle Against

I Passes? I don't recall.

You don't recall it at all? No, My Lords, I don't specifically recall this document. There w^re of course several documents issued on passes, and I wouldn't deny it at all.

Well, if you have a look Mr. Luthuli, at page 2 of the document in front of you, you see at the top the documents are marked pages 1, 2, 3 and 4? Now that is part of the Report of the Executive Committee to the Special Conference of the African National Congress?

Yes. Now the last paragraph on page 2, says ;

"In terms of a decision of Conference, the National Consultative Committee is charged with the task of planning and co-ordinating inter alia the pass struggle, accordingly the Planning Committee drew up and submitted a document to the Working Committee of the Congresses. It has been decided that this document should form the /

basis of the struggle and be a guide to the deliberations of Conference.". Now in your possession, Mr. Luthuli, you also had a document A.J.L. /7l, which contains the National Executive Committee^ Report to the Annual Conference at Queenstown in 1956. Now in that report reference is also made to this document drawn up by the National Consultative Committee as the basis of the pass struggle. Does that serve to refresh your memory in anyway? My Lords, I wouldn't recall, but


I don't dispute it at all. Now Mr. Luthuli, I want to refer you to

paragraph 2 of this document of the National Consultative Committee, that is at the page marked 3 in your possession. Have you got that? "Can Victory "be Won in a Single 5 Battle?" I have got it, My Lords.

You see paragraph 2 refers to the fact - it poses the question "Can Victory be Won in a Single Battle", and then it says ; "In such a long drawn out war as the war against pass laws, it would be foolish to expect that 10 victory could be won by a single action of the people. The pass system is the foundation of the whole cheap labour system of South Africa, the ruling class will not easily be forced to give it up." And then it refers to the fact that it is a long drawn out battle in which 15 there will be many minor victories, minor defeats, many advances, many retreats. And then the paragraph concludes,

, 9 "But the final victory for the people means the end of the cheap labour system of South Africa, can only be finally achieved by the overthrow of the ruling class 20 and by the winning of the Freedom Charter as the ruling policy of South Africa." Now was it the purpose of the African National Congress in conducting this campaign to overthrow the raling class in South Africa? You mean this particular pass campaign? 25

This together with the other campaigns which form part of the liberatory struggle? I think My Lords, I have expresosd myself on similar expressions, yes. It depends on the interpretation you put on "overthrow". 30

Now, Mr. Luthuli, there can be only one interpretation of "overthrow of the ruling class"?


I don't know, I am not sure, I am not an expert in English, I don't think so.

What explanations have you got for "over-throw of the ruling class"? I mem to get rid of in the sense of democratically getting rid of the ruling 5 class.

By negotiating with them? By forcing them to negotiation, or getting the elctorate to get rid of the ruling class.

But Mr. Luthuli, you have already said in 10 your evidence that the people that have the vote are the ruling class in South Africa? I have, yes. I have also said that by applying pressure on the electorate, the White electorate...

On the ruling class? Yes, on the ruling 15 class, quite right.

By applying pressure on them? By apply-ing pressure on the ruling class we hope and we have good reason to hope that there will arise out of the ruling class a people who might induce the government to change. 20 I have said that over and over again in my evidence.

And that you say you would describe as the overthrow of the ruling class? Yes.

If the ruling class are willing to extend the vote to the Africans, that would be overthrow of 25 the ruling class? I indicated somewhere in my evidence that it is the overthrow My Lords, of a system, not necessarily persons. Definitely an overthrow of the system. It would be. And in that sense you are over-throwing the ruling class in that the system disappears. 30

With the consent of the ruling class? In the light of our hope, yes.


And that you describe as "overthrow of the ruling class"? I have already indicated my views.

Mr. Luthuli, you visualise that ultimately parliament would pass the necessary legislation to give effect to your aspirations. It will have to go through 5 parliament you say? Yes. It would have to use the present processes that exist.

And if those present processes are used, by the ruling class in this country to effect the change, that you say you describe as overthrow? I would, 10

Would you have a look at paragraph - the last paragraph, no, the last part of paragraph 5 on page 4, It says s "But this is not the only way to fight", this struggle against passes and passive resistance. "But this is not the only way to fight, nor even the best 15 way. Even widespread acts of passive resistance alone aannot in the long run deter the government from its course, If it is determined to use all its force, authority and power to enforce its will. This was one of the lessons taught us by the Western Areas Removal 20 Scheme which we cannot forget. We must not let our enthusiasm blind us to theprospects of overwhelming government force, mass deportations, sackings from jobs, evictions from homes, which can be unleashed against passive resisters to break their resistance. Passive 25

resistance is good, effective, valuable at the right time in the right igircumstances. But it is not the only way. And those who hold it out and dispair and to their loss of confidence in our movement." Do you agree with those sentiments, those views? I am just reading 30 the last sentence, I don't quite understand. Up to that point I follow it and agree.


I just want to know whether you agree with the view expressed in that paragraph? Well, I agree with the view,, but that last part, one would have to get the connection.

Then I want to go on. "There are other 5 ways of struggle against the pass laws, each of which one haveits place. Pass laws can be fought by demonstra-tions and strikes, by petitions and meetings, by boycott and resistance and disobedience, by active struggle as well as passive. Which of these ways is the best? This 10 can only be conceived in the precise circumstances in which we find ourselves in each area at any one time. Sometimes one and sometimes another. We must learn from the errors of the Bantu Education and the Western Areas Campaign not to be rigid, formally tied by pre-conceived 15 ideas about the only possible ideas about the possible way to forms of action which do not fit the circumstances. We must be ready to use any and every means of struggle which are appropriate and possible at any time in which advance - and which advance us to our goal". Now those 20 views, are those also the views of the African National

Congress as to how the struggle should be conducted? My Lord, all I can say at this stage is that in general where for instance it is indicated in any particular area you may use a certain method which may differ 25 from thcit of another area, and so on.

Now can you by way of illustration, Mr. Luthuli, distinguish between what active struggle would be and what passive struggle would be? My Lords, I stop because the illustration I might give to indicate 30 active may not be quite good for me.

I won't ask you if you approve of that.


I just want to know by way of illustration? Supposing lidid give an illustration, won't that react against me in the case th_t I am facing? BY MR. JUS TIG -. RUMPFF :

It might. You needn't answer that question. 5 I may have understood this wrongly, Mr. Trengove, but isn't it also here dealing with what the authors think are active and passive things when he gives the examples? BY MR. TR^NGOVL :

It may be, Iy Lord. 10 BY MR. JUS TIG .i-. RUMPFF :

It purports to, as far as I remember. BY MR. TR-jNG-OVL s

Ky Loi ds, I will leave it there. Mr. Luthuli this report concludes by saying that the - the concluding 15 remarks are "But we must be active, organising, explaining, agitating the people, preparing them for struggle, and we must be bold when the time for action comes. Mass work, mass agitation, leading to struggle is the A.B.C. of Congress policy on pass laws". Was that the - how 20

the African National Congress wanted to conduct its pass campaign? That is correct, in general, My Lord.

Now Mr. Luthuli, you say that the passes was one of the things which worried the African people the most? That is correct, My Lord. 25

And that would also, if that is correct, that would also be one of the best ways of getting the masses to become politically conscious? Pardon?

Well, in educating the masses politically? Yes, it could be a means, yes. 30

And it is also one of the methods by which the hostility of the masses towards the ruling classes could


be most easily exploited? My Lords, I don't like the expression "hostility towards the ruling class" in that sense,nas hostility to the system.

Well I am using the words "ruling class" because this document says that the pass system is the 5 one by which the ruling class 'exploits the African people?

Yes, and I am trying to explain that really the hos-tility is not directed to persons as it is to thesystem.

But in building up the resistance of the people to the ruling classes, this would be one of the bestlO ways of doing it? It ,would be one of the ways.

And that is why the A.N.C. embarked on this nationwide Anti-Pass Campaign? No. The primary object is to get relief from the pass, not to merely use it as part of the campaignl It is true these campaigns are inter-woven, but the stress is on getting rid of the pass in any way you gan get rid of it*

In getting the support of the masses, you use that, but your purpose is to use the masses in the libera-tory struggle? No, I think the stress is wrong. We are opposed to thepass, and the campaign against the pass is to get rid of it. We don't say now here is a thing that the people don't like, lot us exploit it, organise the people. I think the stress is a very wrong one.

That is exactly what you say in your whole liberatory struggle, that this kind of grievance of the masses must be used to get them to participate in the greater struggle? I am saying it is part of the struggle, but the emphasis and the immediate objective is not to say we are agitating against the pass in order - the pass in itself is obnoxious.

My Lords, the reference to M.B.Y.30 is Volume 22, Page 4212. COURT ADJOURNS.

13671.

COURT RESUMES ON THE 19TK MaY, I960.

ALBERT JOHN LUTHULI, under former oath, CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TR^NGOV^ CONTINUED s

Mr. Luthuli, I was just dealing yesterday with the pass campaign and this document drawn up by the National Consultative Committee, and I just want to put one further question, and that is that you know that that document and the suggestions made in the document 5 were accepted by the African National Congress as the basis of its struggle against the passes? Y^s, that is correct, as a basis for discussion - as the report says, as a basis for discussion.

But that was actually accepted as the basis 10 of the struggle? It doesn't go further than to say discussion at Executive level...

I am not referring to this document at the moment, what the document says. This was accepted as the basis of the struggle? Yes, it was. My difficulty 15 is this that it was at Executive level, but it was accepted as the basis of the struggle at Executive level.

Fow Mr. Luthuli, the campaign against Bantu Education was also, apart from the fact that the African National Congress wanted the Bantu Education system 20 placed on another basis, the purpose of that struggle against Bantu Education was the same as the struggle against the passes and the struggle against the Bantu Resettlement Act? These campaigns were all linked as part and parcel of the liberatory struggle? That is 25 correct.

And the object of these campaigns were directed towards achieving the objects and towards

k


achieving the objects of the Freedom Charter? Yes, as part of the general struggle.

Now Mr. Luthuli, I just want to - do you know during the period 1952 to 1956, people were from time to time banned. They oouldn't continue with their 5 membership of the African National Congress or of other Congress movements to which they might have belonged, that is correct? That is correct.

Now that of course did not prevent them 10 from continuing taking an active part in the national liberatory struggle? My Lords, I wouldn't know in what way, I wouldn't be able to say how individuals reacted, My Lord.

Well, you know this Let the People Speak 15 Committee that existed and people who were banned addres-sed meetings under the auspices of that Committee, not only in the Transvaal but also in Natal? Yes, that is correct.

And it was under the auspices of that 20 Committee that the people who were banned from organisa-tions used to address meetings and use to conduct their part in the liberatory struggle? I mean that is clear from the evidence of meetings? That is correct.

So that the banning of a person from an 25 organisation didn't necessarily mean that that person stopped playing a part in the liberatory struggle? Not necessarily.

Now the Congress movement in working up towards the Congress of the People at Kliptown on the 30 26th June, 1955, held meetings throughout the country under the direction of the National Action Council of the Congress of the People and its various provincial


and local bodies? Including the Congresses. These meetings were called Congress of the

People meetings? - — Yes. In which all the Congresses participated?

That is corredt. 5 And the purpose of those meetings was to

prepare the people for the Congress of the People? That is correct.

And they were meetings to which the public were invited and which were addressed by members of 10 Congress on behalf of their respective organisations? That is correct.

And the purpose of the speeches was to make the masses understand that all these various campaigns were part and parcel of the same struggle? That was 15 one.

And that struggle could be successfully achieved when once the Freedom Charter is adopted? Once the aims of the Freedom Charter are achieved? The people would really only achieve their liberation when once the 20 aims of the Freedom Charter arc accepted and put into operation? That is correct.

Now Ur. Luthuli, why did the Liberal Party withdraw its support from the Congress of the People Cam-paign for the drafting of the Freedom Charter? My 25 Lords I do not know the reasons why the Liberal Party withdrew. In fact I don't even know whether in fact it is correct to say they withdrew because they never did join to become part of the machinery.

No, but they supported the campaign at the 30 outset, didn't they, Mr. Luthuli? You asked them to sponsor the campaign? Yes, we asked them to sponsor


the campaign, "but I don't - in fact they didn't accept the invitation. I remember at the Tongaat meeting they were present, and one of the things discussed there really was to try and get the Liberal Iarty to be a sponsor, and •'•hey did not find it possible to come in.

V'ell, initially they addressed Congress of the People meetings with the other Congress organisations, didn't they? That I wouldn't know, but I know at the official stage when they - at Tongaat they didn't see their way through. 10

Did they ever tell you why they w|re not prepared to throw in their weight? If I recall, My' Lords, one reason which they gave at the Tongaat meeting was that well, they were not called in initially. The Congresses met and made a plan and then afterwards 15 invited them, and they are not finding it easy to come in. I think that; was one main reason advanced.

You don't know of any other reason? I don't recall. In fact, I don't think they gave any other reason. 20

Mr. Luthuli, would you have a look at this document? It is a letter from the Liberal Party of South Africa which is alleged to have been - which I put it to you you had in your possession on the 27th September, 1955 whc;n documents were removed from your possession 25 by Sergeant Swanepoel. This document is numbered A.J.L. 7. . How did that get into your possession? I wouldn't remember, it might have been sent to me, I d-n't recall how it came to me. It is addressed to The Chairman, Cape Western Region, African National 30 Congress, dated the 2nd November, 1954. It is from the Liberal Party of South Africa, Cape Provincial Division.

Tt J)


That was in your possession when Sergeant Swanepoel removed documents from your home, do you remem-"ber? I wouldn't remember the documents that were taken, it is impossible.

Did you ever see that document? My 5 Lords, I cannot immediately recall its contents.

So you say you don't know? I cannot immediately recall its contents.

Mr. Luthuli, do you know if the Liberal Party ever complained to the Congress movement that a non-sponsoring organisation known as the World Council for Peace was distributing propaganda at Congress of the People meetings? No, My Lord.

You don't know that they ev~r complained about that? No, quitehonestly I don't know. 15

You don't know that the Liberal Party raised this objection as oneof their reasonsffor not wanting to continue with the support of the Congress of the People?

No, My Lords, not at the Tongaat meeting where the matter was discussed. 20

No, I am not concerned about the Tongaat meeting, at any stage? The Tongaat meeting is important in the sense that I recall it specifically because that is where the discussion went on and the Liberals told us they could not participate. 25

When was the Tongaat meeting? Some-where in 1954. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF :

I presume Mr. Luthuli that when this whole matter wad sicussed at the Tongaat meeting, that the 30 representatives of the Liberal Party gave their reasons why they did not want to co-operate with the Congress of


the People Campaign? Yes, My Lord. Can you remember the reasons? The main

thing that I remember really My Lord is this that they.. Is that the reason you gave? That is

the one that I gave. 5 That wouldn't be a reason based on principle,

would it? Well, I think that insofar as we are con-cerned it was a very strong reason. They felt that we had gone a little too far making arrangements without getting in touch with them. In fact I remember,My Lord, 10 we even pointed out...

That would be a technical objection, wouldn't it? My Lord, however it might have been, but they did put it forward.

You san't remember any other objection on 15 principle? I can't remember, no. What I do recall, My Lord, is that we tried to persuade them, I personally, even you know at teatime tried to persuade them to re-consider the matter, but they said no, they couldn't see their way c^ear, however they would report to the Party 20 they were delegates, but from the mind of the Party we were asked to say so. (??) MR. TRJNGOVE jNow Mr. Luthulij I want to ask you a few questions on the international policy of the Congress movement and the African National Congress. Mr. Luthuli 25 you know the World Peace Council? I do, Mv Lord.

And you know that the World Peace Council has Peace Councils in many countries throughout the world, of which the South African Peace Council was one? I do, My Lord. 30

The African National Congress supported the South African leace Council, did it not? Yes, it did,


it co-operatad with it, My Lord. And as a matter of fact the African National

Congress was represented when the South African Peace Council was first established in 1953? That I wouldn't know, My Lord, I don't recall that, 5

Now apart f r •>m th£s international organisa-tion there are other international organisations which the African National C ngress supported, such as the World Federation of Democratic Youth? My Lords, I would say that - in which the Congress was interested. 10 I don't know whether I will saysupported.

Well, the African National Congress Youth league was affiliated to the World Federation of Democra-tic Youth, that is correct? That is correct.

toith the full knowledgeand approval of 15 the African National Congress as a whole? Yes, with the full knowledge of the African National Congress.

Then there was the Women's International Democratic Federation. Do you know that body? I do.

And the African National Congress Women's 20 League was affilia,ted to that body? Yes.

Now Mr. Luthuli, do you yourself know any-thing of the activities and aims and purposes of these international organisations? Lid you ever interest your-self in them? Not epecifically My Lords, I do not 25 know.

You see, because I want to put it to you that the African National Congress worked through those bodies in order to further the liberatory movement throughout the world? That would not be correct, My 30 Lord.

And the African National Congress assisted


those international organisations in furthering their objects in South Africa? My Lords, the African National Congress as such was never in any way affilia-ted to those "bodies, it never was. BY MR. JUSTICE Bj&KisiR s

Well, the question is, did or did not the A.N.C. assist those organisations in furthering their objects in South Africa, affiliation apart? No, My Lords, except My Lords that we did work with the Peace Council in South Africa, that is correct, but not the 1 other bodies - not with the world bodies. BY MR. TRiCNGOVL s

Mr. Luthuli, let us just deal with the World Feace Movement first. The African National Congress and the other Congress movements allowed their meetings 1 to be used for spreading the propaganda of the South African Peace Council and the World Peace Council? Specifically quite sofar as the South African Peace Council is concerned, and I wouldn't be surprised too with the World Peace Council, I wouldn't. 2

And the African National Congress, the Congress movement as a whole in formulating its inter-national policy did so on the basis of expressing the views and the propaganda issued by the World Peace Movement? Oh no. That is not correct. The Congress 2 movement - the A.N.C. in particular, My Lord, and the Congress movement in general is interested in peace, and in the utterances of the leaders and in publications it has indicated its intense desire for peace. And to that erifctent, My Lords, it supported the Peace Council 3 of South Africa, and would support any - would be in sympathy rather with any movement that sponsored peace.


Well, Mr. Luthuli, on the international front the world was divided into two camps, the East and the West. Do you accept that? Yes, I accept it.

And the East was led by Soviet Russia and Communist China? Well, I would say Soviet Russia 5 and maybe China, I mean I can't divide the leadership there and say so and so and so and so.

And they had a certain attitude towards international affairs? My Lords, they would but I wouldn't know it. I am not a student of that. 10

What was the attitude of the African National Congress and the Congress movement in regard to the Northern Atlantic Treaty'Organisation? My Lords, I wouldn't recall that - to start with I would like to be reminded really about the treaty itself. I don't recall 15 that it ev^r was a matterof much discussion.

You don't know if the Congress movement ever expressed themselves either in favour oragainst that organisation? I don't recall, My Lords.

Well, the South East Asia Treaty Organisa- 20 tion. What was the attitude of your movement towards that organisation? My Lords, I am afraid I would have to be asked to be reminded. I don't recall those treaties to be able to speak on them. I don't recall. BY MR. JUoTICiS RUMPFF ; 25

Actually, I don't think the Crown wants you to deal with the particulars of the organisations, merely asking you whether you can remember the Congress movement - whether it expression an opinion on them, on their existence, without going into particulars? I frankly 30 don't recall;, it may have, I wouldn't deny that it didn't.

Collection: 1956 Treason Trial Collection number: AD1812

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13641. albert john luthuli, under former oath; mr ......13641. court rjsumjs cn th^ 18th m/iy, i960....

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