assange schmidt transcript

7/25/2019 Assange Schmidt Transcript

http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/assange-schmidt-transcript 1/62

Transcript of secret meeting between Julian

Assange and Google CEO Eric Schmidt

Friday April 1! "#1$

On the 23 of June, 2011 a secret five hour meeting took place between WikiLeaks publisher Julian

Assange, who was uner house arrest in rural !" at the time an #oogle $%O %ric &chmit'

Also in attenance was Jare $ohen, a former &ecretar( of &tate avisor to )illar( $linton, &cott

*alcomson, +irector of &peechwriting for Ambassaor &usan ice at the !& &tate +epartment an

current $ommunications +irector of the -nternational $risis #roup, an Lisa &hiels, .ice

/resient of the $ouncil on oreign elations'

&chmit an $ohen reueste the meeting, the( sai, to iscuss ieas for he 4ew +igital Worl,

their forthcoming book to be publishe on April 23, 2013'

We provie here a verbatim transcript of the ma5orit( of the meeting6 a close reaing, particularl( of

the latter half, is revealing'

7ou can ownloa the recoring here 8ogg9

:beginning of tape;

%&

Well o (ou want us to start eating<

JA

Well, we can o both'

%&

7eah, is that ok<

JA

&o this is''' what=s the ate<

L&

June 23r

JA'''June 23r' his is a recoring between Julian Assange, %ric &chmit an'''<

L&

Lisa &hiels

JA

'''Lisa &hiels' o be use in a book b( %ric &chmit, ue to be publishe b( "nopf in October

2012' - have been given a guarantee that - will see the transcript an will be able to a5ust it for

accurac( an clarit('

%&

$an we start''' - want to talk a little about hor' ight' he sort of, the whole 4av( network an'''

JA

http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/5222


http://wlstorage.net/file/cms/assange-schmidt.mp3

http://wlstorage.net/file/cms/assange-schmidt.ogg

http://wikileaks.org/Transcript-Meeting-Assange-Schmidt#209











http://wlstorage.net/file/cms/assange-schmidt.mp3

http://wlstorage.net/file/cms/assange-schmidt.ogg













or or hor<

%&

7eah, actuall( - mean or' !h'''

JA

An Oin as well'%&

hat=s right, sorr(' or, uh, an the 4av( network, an - on=t actuall( unerstan how all of that

worke' An the reason -=m mentioning this is -=m'''-=m funamentall( intereste in what happens

with that technolog( as it evolves' ight' An so, the problem - woul assert, is that if (ou=re tr(ing

to receive ata (ou nee to have a guarantee of anon(mit( to the sener, (ou nee to have a secure

channel to the recipient, the recipient nees to be replicate, (ou know''' What -= like (ou to o is if

(ou coul 5ust talk a bit about that architecture, what (ou i in WikiLeaks technicall(, (ou know,

with the sort of the technical innovations that were neee an ma(be also what happens' 7ou

know, how oes it evolve< echnolog( alwa(s evolves'

JA

Let me first frame this' - looke at something that - ha seen going on with the worl' Which is that

- thought there were too man( un5ust acts'

%&

O"

JA

An - wante there to be more 5ust acts, an fewer un5ust acts' An one can sort of sa(, well what

are (our philosophical a>ioms for this< An - sa( - o not nee to consier them' his is simpl( m(

temperament' An it is an a>iom because it is that wa(' An so that avois, then, getting into further unhelpful iscussions about wh( (ou want to o something' -t is enough that - o' &o in consiering

how un5ust acts are cause an what tens to promote them an what promotes 5ust acts - saw that

human beings are basicall( invariant' hat is that their inclinations an biological temperament

haven=t change much over thousans of (ears an so therefore the onl( pla(ing fiel left is? what

o the( have< An what o the( know< An have is something that is fairl( har to influence, so

that is what resources o the( have at their isposal< An how much energ( the( can harness, an

what are the supplies an so on' @ut what the( know can be affecte in a nonlnear wa( because

when one person conve(s information to another the( can conve( on to another an another an so

on in a wa( that nonlinear an so (ou can affect a lot of people with a small amount of information'

An therefore (ou can change the behaviour of man( people with a small amount of information'

&o the uestion then arises as to what kins of information will prouce behaviour which is 5ust<An isincentivise behaviour which is un5ust< &o all aroun the worl there are people observing

ifferent parts of what is happening to them locall(' An there are other people that are receiving

information that the( haven=t observe first han' An in the mile there are people who are

involve in moving information from the observers to the people who will act on information'

hese are three separate problems that are all couple together' - felt that there was a ifficult( in

taking observations an putting them in an efficient wa( into a istribution s(stem which coul then

get this information to people who coul act upon it' An so (ou can argue that companies like

#oogle are involve, for e>ample, in this mile business of taking''' of moving information from

people who have it to people who want it' he problem - saw was that this first step was cripple'

An often the last step as well when it came to information that governments were incline to

censor' We can look at this whole process as the ourth %state' Or 5ust as prouce b( the ourth%state' An so (ou have some kin of''' pipeline''' an''' &o - have this escription which is''' which

is partl( erive from m( e>periences in uantum mechanics about looking at the flow of particular















t(pes of information which will effect some change in the en' he bottleneck to me appeare to me

to be primaril( in the acuisition of information that woul go on to prouce changes that were 5ust'

-n a ourth %state conte>t the people who acuire information are sources' /eople who work

information an istribute it are 5ournalists an publishers' An people who act on it''' is ever(one'

&o that=s a high level construct, but of course it then comes own to practicall( how o (ou engineer

a s(stem that solves that problem< An not 5ust a technical s(stem, but a total s(stem' &o WikiLeaks

was an is an attempt although still ver( (oung at a total s(stem'%&

or all three phases<

JA

o eal with''' not for all three phases but for the political component, the philosophical component

an the engineering component in pushing out first component' /oliticall( that means anon(miBing

an protecting''' &orr(' echnicall( that means anon(miBing an protecting sources in a wie

variet( of wa(s' /oliticall( that also means protecting them politicall(, an incentiviBing them in a

political manner' &a(ing that their work is valuable, an encouraging people to take it up' An then

there is also a legal aspect' What are the best laws that can be create in the best 5urisictions tooperate this sort of stuff from< An practical ever(a( legal efense' On the technical front, our first

protot(pe was engineere for a ver( averse situation where publishing woul be e>tremel(

ifficult an our onl( effective efense in publishing woul be anon(mit(' Where sourcing is

ifficult' As it still currentl( is for the national securit( sector' An where internall( we ha a ver(

small an completel( truste team'

%&

&o publishing means the uestion of the site itself< An making the material public<

JA

7eah' *aking the primar( source material public' hat is what - mean b( publishing'%&

&o the first step was to make that correctl('

JA

-t was clear to me that all over the worl publishing is a problem' An''' Whether that is through

self censorship or overt censorship'

%&

&orr(, 5ust (ou=re gonna have to''' is that because of fear of retribution b( the governments, (ou

know< Or all'''JA

-t=s mostl( self censorship' -n fact - woul sa( it=s probabl( the most significant one, historicall(, has

been economic censorship' Where it is simpl( not profitable to publish something' here is no

market for it' hat is - escribe as a censorship p(rami' -t=s uite interesting' &o, on the top of the

p(rami there are the murers of 5ournalists an publishers' An the ne>t level there is political

attacks on 5ournalists an publishers' &o (ou think, what is a legal attack< A legal attack is simpl( a

ela(e use of coercive force'

%&

&ure'JA

Which oesn=t necessaril( result in murer but ma( result in incarceration or asset seiBure' &o the























ne>t level own, an remember the volume''' the area of the p(rami'''' volume of the p(ramiC he

volume of the p(rami increases significantl( as (ou go own from the peak' An in this e>ample

that means that the number of acts of censorship also increases as (ou go own' &o there are ver(

few people who are murere, there are a few people who suffer legal''' there is a few number of

public legal attacks on iniviuals an corporations, an then at the ne>t level there is a tremenous

amount of self censorship, an this self censorship occurs in part because people on=t want to move

up into the upper parts of the p(rami' he( on=t want to come to legal attacks or uses of coerciveforce' @ut the( also on=t want to be kille'

%&

ight' - see'

JA

&o that iscourages people from behaving''' an then there are other forms of self censorship that

are concerne about missing out on business eals, missing out on promotions an those are even

more significant because the( are lower own the p(rami' At the ver( bottom which is the largest

volume is all those people who cannot rea, o not have access to print, o not have access to fast

communications or where there is no profitable inustr( in proviing that' Oka(' &o we ecie toeal with the top of this censorship p(rami' he top two sections? the threats of violence, an the

ela(e threats of violence that are represente b( the legal s(stem' -n some wa(s that is the harest

case' -n some wa(s it is the easiest case' -t is the easiest case because it is clear cut when things are

being censore there, or not' -t is also the easiest because the volume of censorship is relativel(

small, even if the per event significance is ver( high' &o in''' @efore WikiLeaks ha''' although of

course - ha some previous political connections of m( own from other activities, we in=t have

that man( friens' We in=t have significant political allies' An we in=t have a worlwie

auience that was looking to see how we were oing' &o we took the position that we woul nee to

have a publishing s(stem whose onl( efense was anon(mit(' hat is it ha no financial efense, it

ha no legal efense, an it ha no political efense' -ts efenses were purel( technical' &o that

meant a s(stem that was istribute at its front with man( omain names an a fast abilit( to changethose omain names' A caching s(stem, an at the back tunnelling through the or network to

hien servers'''

%&

&o''' if - coul talk 5ust a little bit about this, so''' 7ou coul switch +4&''' (our website names ver(

uickl(, (ou use the tunnelling to get back''' to communicate among these replicas< Or this is for

istribution<

JA

We ha sacrificial front noes, that were ver( fast to set up, ver( uick to set up, that we

nonetheless i place in relativel( hospitable 5urisictions like &ween' An those fast front noeswere fast because there was no''' ver( few hops between them an the people reaing them' hat=s'''

an important lesson that - ha learne from things that - i before, that being a &herman tank is not

alwa(s an avantage, because (ou are not manouevrable an (ou are slow' A lot of the protection

for publishers is publishing uickl(' 7ou get the information out uickl( it is ver( well rea, the

incentive for people to go after (ou in relation to that specific piece of information is actuall( Bero'

here ma( be incentives for them to go after (ou to teach a lesson to other people who might ef(

their authorit( or teach a future lesson to (our organiBation about efiance of authorit('

%&

&o, again, in constructing the argument (ou were concerne that governments or whatever woul

attack the front ens of this thing through whatever''' enial of service attacks or blocking, basicall(filtering them out, which is essentiall( is commonl( one' &o an important aspect of this was to

alwa(s be available'













JA

Alwa(s be available in one particular wa( or another' 4ow that=s not a'' it=s a battle that we have

mostl( won but we haven=t completel( won it' Within a few weeks the $hinese government ha

hane us to their ban list' We ha hunres of omain names, of various sorts, the omain names

that were registere with ver( ver( large +4& proviers, so if there was -/ level base filtering it

woul whack out another five hunre thousan omains an that woul create a political back

pressure that woul uno it' )owever +4& base filtering still hits us in $hina because the mostcommon names the ones that are closest to WikiLeaks the name that people can communicate

easil( the( are all filtere b( the $hinese government'

%&

Of course the( are'

JA

An an( omain with WikiLeaks an(where in it, no matter where it is, is filtere' &o that means

there has to be a variant that the( haven=t (et iscovere' @ut people''' the variant has to be known

wiel( enough for people to go there' &o there is a catch 22'

%&

hat=s a structural problem with the naming of the internet, but the $hinese woul simpl( o

content filtering on (ou'

JA

Well, )/& worke for about a (ear an a half'

%&

Oka('

:backgroun noise' J$ entering;JA

Worke uite well actuall(' An then changing up -/s, because the( were''' the $hinese internet

filtering s(stem is uite baroue, an the( have evolve it''' sometimes the( o things manuall( an

sometimes the( o it in an automate wa(, in terms of aing -/s to the list base on omain

names, an then we i''' we ha a uite interesting battle where we saw that the( were looking up

our -/s, an we see that these reuests came from a certain +4& block range in $hina' Whenever

we saw that we 5ust then returne'''

%&

)a ha ha ha ha' hat=s clever' )a ha ha ha ha'

JA

'''ifferent -/s' - was actuall( thinking we coul return /ublic &ecurit( @ureau -/sC

%&

his is Jare $ohen, b( the wa('

J$

)i, -=m so sorr( we=re late' light ela( an'''

JA

/lease to meet (ou'

%&





























Was it !nite or was it<

J$

!h, +elta' 4ever fl(ing againC

%&

7eah, that=s +elta'L&

)iC

JA

Larr(<

J$

Jare'

JA

JareC Jare'

%&

An this is &cott'

&*

4ice to meet (ouC

%&

&cott is our eitor'

&*&orr(, we=re an hour an a half late'

JA

hat=s alrightC

%&

We=re actuall(, we coul use'''

JA

-t=s a useful a( to riveC

%&

We=ve actuall( been having a perfectl( wonerful time'

&*

-=m sure' -=m sure' -=m sure'

:$hatter;

L&

Wh( on=t (ou 5ust' &cott sit there, an then (ou sit here, ne>t to me'''

&*Are (ou 5oining us<

:chatter;





































essentiall( show up in another wa(' $hange its name an replicate'''

JA

We evelope an internal s(stem to o some of these fast replicas' 4ot uite unsophisticate, but

worke uickl(' @ut - think this is''' -=ve been thinking about this for a while now' - think there is'''

he naming of things is ver( important' he naming of human intellectual work an our entire

intellectual recor is possibl( the most important thing' &o we all have wors for ifferent ob5ects,like tomato' @ut we use a simple wor, tomato, instea of actuall( escribing ever( little aspect

of this go amn tomato'''

JA pla(ing with omato on table;,

JA

'''because it takes too long' An because it takes too long to escribe this tomato precisel( we use

an abstraction so we can think about it so we can talk about it' An we o that also when we use

!Ls' hose are freuentl( use as a short name for some human intellectual content' An we

buil all of our civiliBation, other than on bricks, on human intellectual content' An so we currentl(

have s(stem with !Ls where the structure we are builing our civiliBation out of is the worst kin

of melting plasticine imaginable' An that is a big problem'

%&

An (ou woul argue a ifferent namespace structure, involving''' properl('''

JA

- think there is a funamental confusion, an overloaing of the current !L'

%&

7ep' Absolutel('

JA&o, on the one han we have live (namic services an organiBations''' well there=s three things'

Live (namic services' OrganiBations that run those services, so that (ou are referring to a

hierarch(' 7ou are referring to a s(stem of control' An organiBation, a government, that represents

an organiBe evolving group' An on the other han (ou have artefacts' 7ou have human

intellectual artefacts that have the abilit( to be completel( inepenent from an( s(stem of human

control' he( are out there in the /latonic realm somehow' An shouln=t in fact be referre to b( an

organiBation' he( shoul be referre to in a wa( that is intrinsic to the intellectual content, that

arises out of the intellectual contentC - think that is an inevitable an ver( important wa( forwar,

an where this''' where - saw that this was a problem was ealing with a man b( the name of

4ahmi Auchi' A few (ears ago was liste b( one of the big business magaBines in the !" as the

fifth richest man in the !"' -n 1EF0 left -ra' )e= grown rich uner &aam )ussein=s oil inustr('An is allege b( the -talian press to be involve in a loa of arms traing there, he has over two

hunre companies run out of his Lu>embourg holing unit' An several that we iscovere in

/anama' )e ha infiltrate the @ritish Labour political establishment to the egree that the 20th

business birtha( in Lonon he was given a painting signe b( 1GH members $ommons incluing

on( @lair' )e=s the same gu( who was the principal financier of on( eBko' on( eBko was the

financier an funraiser of o @lago(evich, from $hicago' $onvicte of corruption' on( eBko

has been convicte of corruption' An @arack Obama' )e was the intermeiar( who helpe @arack

Obama bu( one of his houses an then the mone( not irectl( for the house but it bou(e up on(

eBko=s finances came from that''' :inistinct;' &o uring the this is etail, but it will get to a point'

+uring the 200F presiential primaries a lot of attention was turne to @arack Obama b( the !&

press, unsurprisingl(' An so it starte to look into his funraisers, an iscovere on( eBko, an

then the( 5ust starte to turn their e(es towars 4ahmi Auchi' Auchi then hire $arter uck, a

rather notorious firm of Lonon libel solicitors, whose founer, $arter uck, has been escribe as















oing for freeom of speech what the @oston strangler i for oor to oor salesmen'

:laughter;

JA

An he starte writing letters to all of the Lonon papers who ha recors of his 2003 e>traition to

rance an conviction for corruption in rance over the %lfAcuitaine scanal' Where he ha been

involve in taking kickbacks on selling the invae "uwaiti governments= oil refineries in orer tofun their operations while -ra ha occupie it' &o the #uarian pulle three articles from 2003' &o

the( were five (ears ol' he( ha been in the #uarian=s archive for I (ears' Without sa(ing

an(thing' -f (ou go to those !Ls (ou will not see remove ue to legal threats' 7ou will see

page not foun' An one from the elegraph' An a bunch from some American publications' An

bloggers, an so on' -mportant bits of histor(, recent histor(, that were relevant to an ongoing

presiential campaign in the !nite &tates were pulle out of the intellectal recor' he( were also

pulle out of the #uarian=s ine> of articles' &o wh(< he #uarian=s publishe in print, an (ou

can go to the librar( an look up those articles' he( are still there in the librar(' )ow woul (ou

know that the( were there in the librar(< o look up, because the( are not there in the #uarian=s

ine>' 4ot onl( have the( cease to e>ist, the( have cease to have ever e>iste' Which is the

moern implementation of Orwell=s ictum that he controls the present controls the past an he who

controls the past controls the future' @ecause the past is store ph(sicall( in the present' All recors

of the past' his issue of preserving politicall( salient intellectual content while it is uner attack is

central to what WikiLeaks oes because that is what we are afterC We are after those bits that

people are tr(ing to suppress, because we suspect, usuall( rightl(, that the(=re e>pening economic

work on suppressing those bits because the( perceive that the( are going to inuce some change'

J$

&o it=s the evience of the suppression that (ou look for in orer to etermine value<

JA

7eah, that is a ver( goo not precisel( but it is a ver( goo'''

J$

Well, tell me precisel(' )a ha'

JA

Well, it=s not precise''' it=s not alwa(s right' -t=s a ver( suggestive'''

%&

-t=s not perfectC

JA-t=s not perfect' -t is a ver( suggestive signal that the people who know the information best ie' the

people who wrote it are spening economic work in preventing it going into the historical recor,

preventing it going into the public' Wh( spen so much work oing that< -t=s more efficient to 5ust

let ever(one have it' 7ou on=t have to spen time guaring it, but also (ou are more efficient in

terms of (our organiBation because all the positive unintene conseuences of the information

going aroun can come out' &o'''

J$

4o no no, - wante water, but %ric took mine' )a ha'

JA&o we selectivel( go after the information, an that information is selectivel( suppresse insie

organiBations an ver( freuentl( if it is a powerful group as soon as someone tries to publish it it is





















also suppresse'

%&

&o, 5ust, - want to know a bit more about the technolog(' &o in this structure, (ou basicall( have a,

(ou basicall( can put up a new front ver( uickl( an (ou have store replicas that are istribute'

One of the uestions - have is how o (ou ecie which -&/s'''

JA

O"' hat=s a ver( goo uestion'

%&

7eah, it is a prett( complicate uestion'

JA

7eah, so - will give (ou an e>ample of how not to choose them' &o we ealt with a case in the

$acos islans where there was a great little group calle the $- 5ournal' he urks an $acos

-slans Journal, which is sort of a best use case of the internet' &o who are the(< Well the( are a

bunch of legal reformers, logicall( mine people in the urks an $acos islans, who live there,who saw that overseas propert( evelopers were coming in an somehow getting crowne lan,

ver( cheapl( an builing big high rises on it an so on' he( were campaigning for goo

governance an tr(ing to e>pose these people' -t=s a classic best use case for the internet' $heap

publication means that we can have man( more t(pes of publishers' Which means that (ou can have

self subsiiBing publishers' &o (ou can have people that are able to publish purel( for ieological

reasons or for altruistic reasons, because the costs of altruism in relation to publishing are not so

high that (ou cannot o it' he( were houne out of the urks an $aicos islans prett( uickl('

An the( move their servers to -nia' he urkish propert( eveloper the( ha been bus( e>posing

then hire corresponent law(ers in Lonon who hire corresponent law(ers in -nia who

houne them out of their -&/ there, the( then move to *ala(sia, the( got houne out same eal

there' he -&/, the( became non profitable to the -&/ as soon as the legal letters starte coming in'he( went to the !&, an once the( were in the !& their !& -&/ in=t fol the( picke one of the

better ones an it in=t collapse as fast' )owever it was notice that the( were using a #mail

aress' he eitors were anon(mous because of the threats' Who was the responsible part(< -t was

anon(mous, although their columnists often were not' An so a suit was file in $alifornia, an as

part of filing suit the( starte issuing subpoenas' he( issue a subpoena for #mail' An the result

was that #mail''' #oogle tol them that the( ha to come to $alifornia to efen, otherwise it

woul be hane over' hese are little gu(s in the urks an $aicos -slans tr(ing to stop corruption

in their countr( against propert( eveloper with hunres of millions' )ow can the( go to

$alifornia to fight off a libel suit, to fight off a subpoena which is part of a bogus libel suit< Well, of

course the( can=t go' We manage to arrange some law(ers for them an there 5ust happene to be a

nice little bit of the $alifornia statute coe that aresse this precise situation which is whensomeone publishes something an then a subpoena is issue to tr( an get their ientit((ou can=t

o it an (ou=ve got to pa( costs' hat was a nice little legal hook that someone ha introuce'

%&

he problem is''

JA

An #oogle in=t sen an( law(ers to help them eitherC

J$

7eah, we guesse''' :inistinct; entertainment inustr( in $alifornia'

JA



















hat=s an e>ample of what happens if (ou have prett( bright gu(s6 the( ha a goo -nian technical

gu(' he( ha bright political gu(s' 7ou have a ecent technical gu(, (ou have ecent political

gu(s, (ou come together to tr( an fi> corruption in (our countr( using the internet as a publishing

mechanism, what happens< 7ou are houne, from one en of the earth to the otherC hese gu(s

were luck( enough that the( ha enough resources that the( coul survive this houning, an the(

ene up fining some friens an settling into a position where the( are alright' or us this was a

matter of looking at what -&/s ha survive pressure, also because - was connecte to this role of politics an technolog( an anticensorship for a long time an - knew some of the pla(ers' &o we

ha friens at -&/s, within the -&/s, that if (ou like we ha alrea( ieologicall( infiltrate so we

knew that the( woul fight in our corner if there was a reuest come in an we knew if there was a

ecent chance that subpoenas were serve, even with a gag orer, we= soon fin out about it' &o

how can someone o it who is not in that worl' Well the answer is, not easil(' 7ou can look at -&/s

that WikiLeaks has use or is currentl( using, or that the /irate @a( has use, or other groups that

are tremenousl( uner attack' -n the case of this little -&/, an it is often a little -&/ that is fighting,

take the little -&/ /D in &ween that was foune b( #ottfrie, whose nickname is Anakata, he is

one of the technical brains behin the /irate @a(, so the( ha evelope a niche inustr(, also

@ahnhof an -&/ in &ween of ealing with refugee publishers, an that is the correct wor for it, the

correct phrase for it, that the( are publishing refugees' he( ha at that time other than us *ala(siaoa(, which ha to flee, the American )omeowner=s Association, which ha to flee from

propert( evelopers in the !nite &tates, the $avatB $entre, a $aucasian, a $aucus news center

which is constantl( uner attack b( the ussians' -n fact /D was raie several times b( the

&weish government uner pressure from the ussian government' he ick oss institute on

estructive cults, an American base outfit ha been sue out of America b( &cientolog( an so on'

J$

)uh huh, huh huh huh

%&

)hm hm hm

J$

)uh huh' Wow

JA

*ala(sia oa(, run b( a wonerful gu( b( the name of a5a /etra who, he has two arrest warrants

out for him in *ala(sia, he is base in Lonon, but his servers can=t survive in Lonon, the( are in

&ingapore an the !nite &tates'

%&

@ut again, - get the, the, that=s :inistinct; there are sites that participate in this<

JA

7es, we have some fourteen hunre, but those are''' we have mirrors that are voluntar( as well as

%&

&o the( basicall( optin mirror sites'

JA

he( etermine their own risks, we on=t know an(thing about them, we can=t guarantee that the(

are all trustworth(, etc, but the( o increase the numbers'

%&





















7ou have been uote in the press as sa(ing that there is a much larger store of information that is

encr(pte an istribute' -s it istribute in those sorts of places<

JA

4o, that=s an open''' we openl( istribute backups of''' encr(pte backups of materials that we view

are highl( sensitive that we are to publish in the coming (ear'

%&

#ot it'

JA

4ot as some people have sai so that we have a thermonuclear evice to use on our opponents'

@ut rather so that there is ver( little possibilit( that that material, even if we are completel( wipe

out, will be taken from the historical recor'

%&

&o, so an eventuall( (ou will reveal the ke( that is necessar( to ecr(pt it'

JA

4o, ieall(, we will never reveal the ke('

%&

- see'

JA

@ecause there is things, like, so reactions sometimes nee to be one on this material'

%&

&ure'

JA

&o it=s''' our view is that the material is so significant that even if we release it as is, with no

reactions, that the benefits woul outweight the harms' @ut through reacting things we can get the

harm own even more'

%&

An - unerstan that' One more sort of tactical uestion for now' &o, m( simple e>planation is that

the tools will get better for an anon(mous sener sen to a istrustful recipient, an then this

anon(mous :noise; (our escribing' We will get to the point where the''' a ver( large amount of

people using such services for all sorts of reasons? truthful, l(ing, manipulation, what have (ou' he

current technolog( use''' basicall(, like / :inistinct; runners sent to (ou' @asicall( people will/ something an then 5ust sort of ship it to (ou'

JA

4o we have''' we have lots of ifferent paths' An that=s uite eliberate' An we on=t sa( which

one is use more than which other one, because that means that investigative resources have to be

sprea across all possible paths' @ut the( are from inperson, in the mail' /ostal mail is still actuall(

prett( goo if (ou want to sen anon(mous stuff' %ncr(pt something to a ke(, if (ou think it might

be intercepte on the wa(, sen it from somewhere, it=s still prett( goo' &traight )/& uploas,

although the( are not actuall( sort of straight' @ut to the user it looks like the( are straight' @ehin

the scenes all sorts of other stuff is going on' he biggest problem with computer securit( is not

communication' -t=s en points'

%&



























ight'

JA

An so ealing with en point attacks both on someone tr(ing to sen us information an more

importantl( if someone tries to sen us information is themselves compromise, that=s one

compromise of one person' -f our engine that receives information is compromise, that is a

potential compromise of ever( person that is tr(ing to sen us material'%&

- guess -''' - in=t ask m( uestion uite right' -f the''' -s there some new technolog( which in (our

view woul kin of materiall( change this simple moel that - have about, of the vast increase of'''

JA

7esC &o -=ve'''

%&

&o what are those technologies<

JA

he most important one is naming things properl(' -f we are able to name some''' a vieo file or a

piece of te>t in a wa( that is intrinsicall( couple to the information there, so that there is no

ambiguit( a hash is an e>ample of thisbut then there=s variations, ma(be (ou want one that

human beings can actuall( remember' hen it permits this information to be sprea in such a wa(

where (ou on=t have to trust the unerl(ing networks' An (ou can floo it'

%&

Wh( on=t (ou have to trust the unerl(ing networks<

JA

Well because (ou can sign''' (ou can sign the hashes'

%&

7ou can sign the name as well as the content'

JA

7ou can sign the hash'

%&

7ou can sign the hash'

JAAn that=s the hash' -f a name is like a hash'

%&

&o it=s''' it=s unambiguous as to whether'''

JA

7es'

%&

7ou=re basicall( sa(ing (ou have a provable name'''

JA

7eah'

































%&

As oppose to an alterable name'

JA

An those sorts of mechanisms are evolving now' We have been using something like this

internall(, -=ve been writing a paper on it to tr( an make this a stanar for ever(one' @ut (ou can

see the( are actuall( evolving' -f we look at magnet links''' have (ou seen these< here is anenhancement of @itorrent, which is a magnet link, an a magnet link is actuall( a hash'

%&

ight right'

JA

&o it is hash aressing' -t oesn=t point to an( particular server, rather there is a big hash tree'' a

istribute hash, three over''' - on=t know how technical - shoul get''' here is a big istribute

hash tree over man( millions of computers involve in thee hashtree, an man( man( entr( points

into this hashtree so it is ver( har to censor' An the aressing for content is on the hash of the

content'

%&

ight so (ou are basicall( oing the hash as the aress, an (ou o the aressing within the

namespace to provie''' so as long as (ou have a signe'''

JA

As long as (ou get the hash'''

%&

'''(ou can=t hie it'

JA

Well, there=s a uestion as to (ou=ve got a name of something, (ou=ve got a hash, but what oes that

tell (ou' 4othing reall(, because it is not reall( human reaable' &o (ou nee another mechanism to

get the fact that that=s important to (ou'

%&

&ure'

JA

An that is something like WikiLeaks signs that, an sa(s that that is'''

%&

An interesting piece of information

JA

'''an interesting piece of information, an we have verifie that it is true' @ut that, once (ou fee

that information into the s(stem then it becomes ver( unclear how it got into the s(stem' Well how

o (ou get ri of it from the s(stem< An if (ou o get ri of it, if someone oes manage to get ri

of it, (ou know for sure that it=s been gotten ri of, because the hash oesn=t resolve to an(thing

an(more' &imilarl(, if someone were to moif( it, the hash changes'''

J$

- was 5ust gonna sa(, wh( wouln=t the( 5ust rename it, rather than'''

JA































he( can=t because the name is intrinsicall( couple to the intellectual content'

%&

- think the wa( to e>plain this''' o summarise the technical iea is''' take all the content in a

ocument, come up with a number, so if the content is gone, the number oesn=t match, show

an(thing' An if the content has change, the number oesn=t compute right an(more' &o it is an

interesting propert('J$

*m hm' &o'''

JA

&o'''

%&

&o how far are we from this t(pe of s(stem<

JA

On the publishing en, the magnet links an so on are starting to come up' here=s also a ver( nice

little paper that -=ve seen in relation to @itcoin, that''' (ou know about @itcoin<

%&

4o'

JA

Oka(, @itcoin is something that evolve out of the c(pherpunks a couple of (ears ago, an it is an

alternative''' it is a stateless currenc('

J$

7eah, - was reaing about this 5ust (estera('

JA

An ver( important, actuall(' -t has a few problems' @ut its innovations e>cee its problems' 4ow

there has been innovations along these lines in man( ifferent paths of igital currencies,

anon(mous, untraceable etc' /eople have been e>perimenting with over the past 20 (ears' he

@itcoin actuall( has the balance an incentives right, an that is wh( it is starting to take off' he

ifferent combination of these things' 4o central noes' -t is all point to point' One oes not nee to

trust an( central mint' -f we look at traitional currencies such as gol, we can see that the( have

sort of interesting properties that make them valuable as a meium of e>change' #ol is ivisible, it

is eas( to chop up, actuall( out of all metals it is the easiest to chop up into fine segments' 7ou can

test relativel( easil( whether it is true or whether it is fake' 7ou can take choppe up segments an

(ou can put them back together b( melting the gol' &o that is what makes it a goo meium of

e>change an it is also a goo meium of value store, because (ou can take it an put it in the

groun an it is not going to eca( like apples or steaks' he problems with traitional igital

currencies on the internet is that (ou have to trust the mint not to print too much of it'

:laughter;

JA

An the incentives for the mint to keep printing are prett( high actuall(, because (ou can print free

mone(' hat means (ou nee some kin of regulation' An if (ou=re gonna have regulation then

who is going to enforce the regulation, now all of a suen (ou have sucke in the whole problemof the state into this issue, an political pushes here an there, an who can get control of the mint,

push it one wa( or another, for particular purposes' @itcoin instea has an algorithm where the























an(one can create, an(one can be their own mint' he(=re basicall( 5ust searching for collisions with

hashes'' A simple wa( is''' the( are searching for a seuence of Bero bits on the beginning of the

thing' An (ou have to ranoml( search for, in orer to o this' &o there is a lot of computational

work in orer to o this' An each @itcoin software that is istribute'' hat work algorithmicall(

increases as time goes b(' &o the ifficult( in proucing @itcoins becomes harer an harer an

harer as time goes b( an it is built into the s(stem'

%&

ight, right' hat=s interesting'

JA

Just like the ifficult( in mining gol becomes harer an harer an harer an that is what makes

people preict that there is not going to be a suen amount of gol in the market, rather'''

%&

o enforce the scarcit('''

JA

7eah, to enforce scarcit(, an scarcit( will go up as time goes b(, an what oes that mean for

incentives in going into the @itcoin s(stem' hat means that (ou shoul get into the @itcoin s(stem

now' %arl(' 7ou shoul be an earl( aopter' @ecause (our @itcoins are going to be worth a lot of

mone( one a(' &o once (ou have a''' an the @itcoins are 5ust''' a @itcoin aress is 5ust a big hash'

-t=s a hash of a public ke( that (ou generate' &o once (ou have this hash (ou can 5ust avertise it to

ever(one, an people can sen (ou @itcoins, an there is people who have set up e>changes to

convert from @itcoin to !& ollars an so on' An it solves a ver( interesting technical problem,

which is how o (ou stop ouble spening<

All igital material can be clone, almost Bero costs, so if (ou have currenc( as a igital string of

numbers, how o (ou stop me''' - want to bu( this piece of pasta':JA using lunch table ob5ects;

JA

)ere is m( igital currenc( an, now - take a cop( of it' An now - want to bu( (our bit of egg' An

then (ou go''' an now - want to bu( (our raishC An (ou go, what< -=ve alrea( got thatC What=s

going on here< here=s been some frauC &o there=s a s(nchroniBation problem' Who now has the

coin< &o there is a point to point'' a sprea network with all these problems, some points of the

network being faster, some points of the network being slower, multiple paths of communication,

how o (ou solve this s(nchroniBation issue about who has the currenc(< An so this is to min

actuall( the real technical innovation for @itcoin, it has one this using some hashtrees an then a

ela( time, an then $/! work has to be one in orer to move one thing to another so information

can=t sprea too fast etc' O", so, once (ou have a s(stem of currenc( that is eas( to use like that,

then (ou can start to use it for things that (ou want to be scarce' What is the e>ample of some things

that we want to be scarce< Well, omain names' 4ames' We want names to be scarce' We want

short names to be scarce, otherwise if the( are not scarce, if it oesn=t take work to get them, as soon

as (ou have a nice naming s(stem, some arsehole is going to come along an register ever( short

name themselves'

%&

ight' hat=s ver( interesting'

JA

&o this @itcoin replacement for +4& is precisel( what - wante an what - was theoriBing about,

which is not a +4& s(stem, but rather short names''' short bit of te>t to long bit of te>t tuple

















registering service' $ause that is the abstraction of omain names an all these problems solve'

7es, (ou have some something that (ou want to register that is short, an (ou want to couple that to

something that is unmemorable an longer' &o for e>ample, the first amenment, that phrase, the

!& first amenment, is a ver( short phrase, but it e>pans to a longer bit of te>t' &o (ou take the

hash of this te>t, an now (ou have got something that is intrinsicall( couple to that which is

unmemorable' @ut then (ou can register !& irst Amenment couple to the hash' An that then

means (ou have a structure where (ou can tell whether something has been publishe orunpublishe, (ou can''' one piece of human intellectual information can cite another one in a wa(

that''' can=t be manipulate, an if it is censore the censorship can be foun out' An if one place is

censore, well (ou can scour the entire worl for this hash, an no matter where (ou fin (ou know

it is what (ou wante precisel(C

%&

ight

JA

&o that, in theor(, then permits human beings to buil up an intellectual scaffol where ever(

citation, ever( reference to some other part of human intellectual content, is precise, an can beiscovere if it e>ists out there an(where at all, an is not epenent on an( particular organiBation'

&o as a wa( of publishing this seems to be the most censorship resistant manner of publishing

possible, because it is not epenent on an( particular mechanism of publishing' 7ou can be

publishing through the post, (ou can be publishing on conventional websites, (ou can be publishing

using @ittorrent, whatever, but the naming is consistent' An same is for''' publishing is also a

matter of transferring, (ou can''' all (ou then have to o is, if (ou want to transfer something

anon(mousl( to someone else, one particular person, (ou encr(pt the information with their ke(,

an (ou publish it'

%&

Are (ou worrie'' basicall( this entire s(stem epens on basicall( irrevocable ke( structures' Are(ou worrie that the ke( structures woul fall apart<

JA

Well the hashing, in terms of the naming part, going to patternsit oesn=t epen on the ke(

structure at all' -n terms of @itcoin has its own ke( structure an that=s an inepenent thing, there is

all sorts of problems with it' )ackers can come in an steal ke(s etc' An the same problems that

(ou have with cash' Armore vans are neee to protect the cash etc' An there are some

enhancements (ou can use to tr( an remove the incentives one wa( or another' 7ou can introuce a

subcurrenc( with fi>e perios of e>pense' &o (ou retract for one week or one a( an a merchant

will accept or not accept'

%&

he average person oes not unerstan that &A was broken into an awful lot of private ke(s

involving commerce were taken,

JA

7es

%&

so'''

JA

he public ke( structure is a tremenous problem, so in the same wa( that omain name structures

are a tremenous problem' he browser base public ke( s(stem that we have for authenticating



















what websites (ou are going to, it is awful' -t is trul( awful' he number of people that have been

license to mint ke(s is so tremenous'' there=s one got bankrupte an got bought up cheapl( b(

ussian companies, (ou can assume, - have been tol actuall( that .eri&ign, b( people who are in

the know, although - am not (et willing to go on the public recor, cause - onl( have one source,

5ust between (ou an me, one source that sa(s that .eri&ign has actuall( given ke(s to the !&

government' 4ot all, but a particular ke(' hat=s a big problem with the wa( things are authenticate

presentl(' here are some traitional alternative approaches, like /#/ has a web of trust' - on=tthink those things reall( work' What - think oes work is something close to what &&) oes, an

that=s probabl( the wa( forwar' Which is it is opportunistic ke( registration' &o there is part of

(our interaction, the first time (ou interact, (ou register (our ke(, an then if (ou have a few points

of ke(ing or some kin of floo network, then (ou can see that well lots of people have seen that

ke( man( times in the past'

%&

An one more technical uestion, an - think we shoul probabl(, &cott (ou were sort of'''

&*

-=m rea(C )a ha ha'%&

When we were sort of chatting initiall( we talke about m( iea that powering, mobile phones

being powere, is sort of changing societ(' A rough summar( of (our answer for ever(bo( else is

that people are ver( much the same an something big has to change their behaviour, an this might

be one of them, an (ou sai, (ou were ver( intereste in someone builing phone to phone

encr(ption' $an (ou talk a little bit about, roughl(, the architecture where (ou woul have a broa

open network an (ou have person to person encr(ption' What oes that mean technicall(, how

woul it work, wh( is it important' hat kin of stuff' - mean, - think people on=t unerstan an( of

this area in m( view'

JA

When we were ealing with %g(pt we saw the *ubarak government cut off the internet an we saw

onl( one there was one -&/ that uite few of us were involve in tr(ing to keep its connections

open, it ha ma(be H of the market' %ventuall( the( cut'' eventuall( the *ubarak government

also cut off the mobile phone s(stem' An wh( is it that that can be one< /eople with mobile

phones have a evice that can communicate in a raio spectrum' -n a cit( there is a high ensit('''

there is alwa(s, if (ou like, a path between one person an another person' hat is there is alwa(s a

continuous path of mobile phones, each one can in theor( hear the raio of the other'

%&

7ou coul form a peer to peer network'

JA

&o in theor( (ou coul form a peer to peer network' 4ow the wa( most #&* phones are being

constructe an others is that the( receive on a ifferent freuenc( to that which the( transmit'''

%&

7es'

JA

'''an that means that the( cannot form peer to peer networks' he( have to go through base

stations' @ut we=re seeing now that mobile phones are becoming more fle>ible in terms of basestation programming' An the( nee to o this because the( operate in ifferent markets that have

ifferent freuencies' he( have ifferent forms of wireless output, an so ''' an also, even if there



















is not sufficientl( fle>ible mobile phones, we are seeing that in the mobile phone aspect, ma(be

Wi*a> is coming along which will give them greater raius for two wa( communications' @ut also

it is getting ver( cheap to make (our own base station' here is software now which will run a base

station'

%&

ight, right'JA

or (ou' &o (ou can throw these things up an make (our own networks with conventional mobile

phones prett( uickl(' -n fact this is what is one to sp(, to keep sp(ing on mobile phones' 7ou set

up a fake base station' An there=s vans now, (ou can bu( these in bulk on the commercial sp(

market, to set up a van an intercept mobile phone calls' +uring these revolutionar( perios the

people involve in the revolution nee to be able to communicate' he( nee to be able to

communicate in orer to plan uickl( an also to communicate information about what is

happening in their environment uickl( so that the( can (namicall( aapt to it an prouce the

ne>t strateg(' Where (ou onl( have the securit( services being able to o this, an (ou turn the

mobile phone s(stem off, the securit( services have such an tremenous avantage compare to people that are tr(ing to oppose them' -f (ou have a s(stem where iniviuals are able to

communicate securel( an robustl( espite what securit( services are oing, then securit( services

have to give more groun' -t=s not that the government is necessaril( going to be overthrown, but

rather the( have to make more concessions'

%&

he( have their networks' &o (our argument that even with these e>isting phones the( moif( them

to have peer to peer encr(pte tunnels for voice an ata, presumabl('

JA

.oice is a bit harer' What we i internall( in this protot(pe - esigne was a which onl( worksfor meium siBe groups so a peer to peer floo !+/encr(pte network !+/ permits (ou to

put lots an lots of cover traffic in cause (ou can sen stuff to ranom internet hosts'

%&

Oh, so, oh, so that=s clever, so that wa( (ou can=t be blocke, right<

JA

7eah'

%&

@ecause !+/ is a single packet, right< &o'''JA



















ight, so (ou sen it to ranom internet hosts an a ranom internet host oesn=t respon, which is

e>actl( the same thing as a host that is receiving stuff' An even structure''' an using this (ou can

o hole punching through firewalls an it means that normal at home people can use this' he(

on=t nee to have a server' An it is ver( light banwith, so (ou can put it on mobile phones as

well' he killer application is not lots of voice' ather it is chat rooms' &mall chatrooms of thirt( to

a hunre people that is what revolution movements nee' he( nee it to be secure an the(

nee it to be robust' he s(stem - i was protocol inepenent' &o (es, (ou=ve got (ourencapsulating thing, !+/ or whatever, an in theor( (ou coul be pushing it over &*& (ou coul

be putting it over $/, (ou coul be pushing it over whatever' 7ou coul be using a mobile phone,

(ou coul be using a esktop or whatever' 7ou can put that into one big mesh, so that all (ou nee,

even when the whole countr( is shut off (ou 5ust nee one satellite connection out an (our internal

network connects to the rest of the worl'

%&

7eah, (eah'

JA

An if (ou=ve got a goo routing s(stem' -f it is a small network (ou can use floo, an thereb( floo network takes ever( possible path therefore it must take the fastest possible path' ight< &o a

floo network alwa(s fins a wa( but oesn=t scale to large uantities' @ut if (ou=ve got a goo

routing s(stem (ou 5ust nee this one link out' An in $airo, we ha people who hacke o(ota in

$airo, an took over their satellite uplink, an use that to connect to this -&/ that fe H of the

market, an so that sort of thing was going on all this time' here was a hacker war in %g(pt to tr(

an keep this - on=t like to call it raical, but this more inepenent -&/ that provie H of

the market, up an going' @ut it shouln=t have been so har' -t shoul have been the case that all

(ou nee to o is have one connection an then the most important information coul get out' An

if (ou look at, if this is euivalent to &*&s, - mean look how important witter is an how

important &*& is' Actuall(, human beings are prett( goo at encoing the most important thing that

is happening into a short amount of ata' here=s not that man( human beings' here 5ust aren=t thatman(' &o with one pipe (ou can'''

%&

-t=s not a banwith problem'

JA

-t=s not a banwith problem' &o all (ou nee is one pipe' An (ou can connect a countr( that is in a

revolutionar( state to the rest of the worl' An points within that countr( 5ust as important' $ities

within that countr(' An it=s not that har a thing to o uite frankl('

%&

&cott, o (ou wanna<

&*

-t=s har to stopC -t=s so interestingC

%&

- actuall(, - have like five hours more'''

&*

- knowC @ecause it=s like one thing an then there=s like more an'''

%&

)ow woul (ou architect this how woul (ou architect that''' - think m( summar( woul be that





















this notion of a hash iea of the name is a ver( interesting one, because - ha not linke it to

@itcoin, or that kin of approach, with scarcit(' hat=s a new iea for me' )ave (ou publishe that

iea<

JA

-=ve publishe''' not the link to @itcoin, that paper that came out about coupling something to

@itcoin was 5ust tr(ing to aress the +4& issue' @ut fortunatel( the gu( who i it unerstoothat''' wh( 5ust have uatets< 7ou know, wh( limit it to -/ aresses< -t=s sort of natural in a wa( to

make the thing so that it coul go to an( sort of e>pansion' @ut the iea for''' that there shoul be

this naming s(stem an the importance of this naming s(stem, the importance of preserving histor(

an oing these scaffols, an mapping out ever(thing' 7eah, so that=s on the site, uner''' - think it

is part of one of the )ans !lrich interview'

%&

- think we shoul stu( this uite a bit more so we generall( unerstan it''' so we might have a few

more uestions about it''' he other comment - woul make is that on the assumption that what (ou

are escribing is going to happen somea( is probable given that the incentive structure is'''

JA

Well -=ve ha these ieas several (ears but now - see other people are also getting into'''

%&

Well there is enough people who are intereste in solving the problem (ou are tr(ing to solve' On

the internet (ou see a lot of e>periences' What - am thinking of is how woul - attack it' )ow woul

- attack (our iea' An - still think - woul go after the signing an the ke( infrastructure' &o if -

can break the ke(s'''

JA

here are ifferent parts of the iea' &o, if (ou publish some information or if (ou sprea someinformation''' this publishing thing is uite interesting as to whether when something has gone from

not being publishe to being publishe its uite''' interesting' &o if (ou sprea some information

an (ou=ve got it well labele, using a hash'

:chatter about foo;

JA

hat hash is important' -t is something that has to sprea in another wa(' &o that is sa( b(

WikiLeaks signing the hash' @ut there is man( wa(s for it to sprea' - mean people coul be

swapping that hash in email' he( coul be telling each other on the telephone etcetera'

%&7ou are sa(ing that all of these s(stems are o not have a single point of attack, - can break own

(our )/& but (ou can still use the !& postal service to sen it, for e>ample'

JA

%>actl(, an (ou woul know that (ou were getting the right thing, because of its naming it is

completel( accurate'

J$

- am 5ust wonering, on the human sie of this, (ou have such e>perience of the worl (ou

escribe earlier' - mean - ha three hours sleep, so forgive me if - on=t remember e>actl( what (ou

sai, but some combination of technical an altruistic people an what amounts to a kin ofsubculture that (ou=ve been in for some 1I (ears now'' &o (ou know about how the subculture

works' An that subculture nees to either - guess sta( the same or e>pan in orer to o the work





















that (ou are escribing, an so since our book is about ten (ears awa('''

JA

-t=s ramaticall( e>pane'''

J$

What are the patterns there in terms of the people part, rather than the'''<JA

hat=s the most optimistic thing that is happening' he raicaliBation of internet eucate (outh'

/eople who are receiving their values from the internet''' an then as the( fin them to be

compatible echoing them back' he echo back is now so strong that it rowns the original

statements' $ompletel(' he people -=ve ealt with from the 1EH0s raicals who helpe liberate

#reece an'' &alaBar' he( are sa(ing that this moment in time is the most similar to what happene

in this perio of liberation movements in the 1EH0s, that the( have seen'

J$

+o (ou see it scaling ifferentl( than it i in the H0s<JA

An as far as what has entere into the West, because there are certain regions of the worl - am not

aware of, but as far as - am aware that an of course - wasn=t alive in the 1EH0s but as far as -

can tell, that statement is true' his is the political eucation of apolitical technical people' -t is

e>traorinar(, in the same wa( that the (oung'''

L&

Apolitical< +o (ou mean one wor<

JA

One wor' /eople are going from''' (oung people are going from apolitical to political' -t is a ver(

ver( interesting transition to see'

J$

)ow o (ou think''' - mean this is (our worl wh( o (ou think that took place< - mean, wh( o

(ou think it took place<

JA

ast communication' $ritical mass of (oung people' 4ewer generation' An then some catal(Bing

events' he attack on us was a catal(Bing event' An our efense''' our success in efening was a

catal(Bing event' - on=t know, o (ou remember the /#/ case, an that gran 5ur( with

Kimmermann an so on<

%&

)e ha a lot of fun that with that'

JA

- wrote half a book on that' -t was never publishe, because m( cowriter went an ha chilren'

:L& spills water all over her note taking laptop;

:JA uickl( grabs her laptop an turns it upsie own;

L&)a ha ha ha

%&





























)a ha haC

J$

)a ha haC Wh( o - feel that has happene before<

&*

&o much for the historical recorCJA

As - saimultiple copiesC

:laughter;

&*

Wh( on=t (ou save whatever (ou were oing''' get it into the name tree before''' &omeone?

ever(thing goes wrong'''

:chatter;

L&

+i (ou see how fast he was< -t was like an impulse'

J$

7eah, - feel (ou were almost there before the computer'''

&*

$omputers are important'''

:laughter;

L&

hat was sweet, thank (ou' #o ahea'

&*

&o (ou were sa(ing' @ut (oung people aren=t inherentl( goo' An - sa( that as a father an with

regret'

:laughter;

JA

Oh no - think that actuall(''' well, -=ve rea the Lor of the lies'''

:Laughter;

JA

an - went to thirt( ifferent schools, so -=ve seen plent( of Lor of the lies situations'''

:laughter;

JA

'''@ut no, - think that the instincts human beings have are actuall( much better than the societies that

we have'

J$

hen the governments, basicall('JA

- am not going to sa( governments' he whole structure of the societ(' he economic structure' An































that people learn that simple altruistic acts on=t pa( off an the( see that some people who act in

non altruistic wa(s en up getting /orsches an fast cars, an it tens to pull people in that

irection' - thought about this a while ago when - saw there was this fantastic vieo that came out of

&tanfor in about =HE on nuclear s(nthesis of +4A' )ave (ou seen it<

&*

4o'J$

4o'

%&

4o'

JA

-t=s on (outube' -t=s great' A wonerful thing' &o it is e>plaining nuclear s(nthesis through

interpretive ance' An so there are like a hunre an thirt( &tanfor stuents out there pretening

to be +4A, a whole bunch pretening to be a ribosomal subunit an a a a' An all wearing thehipp( clothes of the a(' @ut the( were all actuall( ver( bright people' An - looke at that an

thought, coul &tanfor'' an it was a ver( goo bit of eucation, so it is not that it was cool an

unusual, rather that it was e>tremel( instructive, an before computer animation was the best

representation of how a ribosomal unit behaves' $oul (ou see &tanfor oing that now< Absolutel(

impossible' -t is far too conservative for it to o that now, even though that was an e>tremel(

effective eucation''' (ou can bet ever(one who was in that ance remembers e>actl( how nuclear

s(nthesis occurs, because the( all ha to remember their parts' An - remember it having seen it'

4o, rather that perio of peak earnings for the average wage in the !nite &tates was, what, like

=< hat certain things simpl( happene' hat those people who were altruistic an not too

concerne about finances an fiscaliBation simpl( lost power relative to those people who were

more concerne about finances an fiscaliBation an worke their wa( up in the s(stem' &o certain behaviours were isincentiviBe an others were potentiate' An that is primaril( - believe as a

result of technolog( that enables fiscaliBation' &o fast bank transfers' he -& being able to account

for lots of people, it sucks people into a ver( rigi fiscaliBe structure' &o (ou can have a lot of

political change in the !nite &tates' @ut will it reall( change that much< Will it change the amount

of mone( in someone=s bank account< Will it change contracts< Will it voi contracts that alrea(

e>ist< An contracts on contracts, an contracts on contracts on contracts< 4ot reall(' &o - sa( that

free speech in man( places in man( Western places is free not as a result of liberal circumstances

in the West but rather as a result of such intense fiscaliBation that it oesn=t matter what (ou sa(' ie'

the ominant elite oesn=t have to be scare of what people think, because a change in political view

is not going to change whether the( own their compan( or not' -t is not going to change whether

the( own a piece of lan or not' @ut $hina is still a political societ(' Although it is raicall( heaingtowars a fiscaliBe societ(' An other societies, like %g(pt was, are still heavil( politiciBe' An so

their rulers reall( o nee to be concerne about what people think, an so the( spen a portion of

efforts on controlling freeom of speech'

J$

&o if (ou were'''

JA

@ut - think (oung people have fairl( goo values' Of course it=s a spectrum an so on' @ut the( have

fairl( goo values most of the time' An the( want to emonstrate them to other people an (ou can

see this when people first go to universit( an so on' An the( become harene as a result ofcertain things having a pa( off an other things not having a pa(off' &tu(ing for an e>am,

constantl(, even though in some cases the work is completel( minless, an pointless, has a pa(off















at the en of the (ear, but going an talking to someone an oing a favour oesn=t have a pa(off at

the en of the (ear' An so this isincentiviBes some behaviours an incentiviBes other ones'

J$

@ut let me tease out some of this, - mean it souns like (ou have got a view of the globe with

certain societies where the impact of technolog( is relativel( slight, certain societies where

politicall( the impact of technolog( can be uite great, an certain societies where it woul be at asort of miling wa(' An (ou woul put $hina into - guess the miling categor('

JA

Well, it=s starting to'''

J$

&ince our book is all about technolog( an social transformation ten (ears own the line''' what=s

the globe that (ou see given the structure that (ou are escribing<

JA

- am not sure about the impact on $hina' -t is still a political societ(, so the impact coul be ver(great' - mean - often sa( that censorship is alwa(s cause for celebration' -t is alwa(s an opportunit(,

because it reveals fear of reform' -t means that the power position is so weak that (ou have got to

care about what people think'

J$

ight' -t=s like (ou fin the sensitive ocuments b( watching them hunt'

JA

%>actl('

%&

his is a ver( interesting argument'

J$

&orr(, - in=t mean to interrupt'

JA

&o when the $hinese e>press all this energ( on censoring in all these novel wa(s, o we sa( that it

is a complete waste of time an energ(, or o the( have a whole bunch of e>perience managing the

countr( an unerstan that it matters what people think< - sa( it is much more reasonable to

interpret it as the ifferent groups ifferent actors within $hina who are able to control that

censorship s(stem unerstan correctl( that their power position is weak an the( nee to be careful

what people think' &o the( have to censor'

J$

&o the state is rational, at least in its repression'

JA

- am alwa(s worrie in talking about the state, because it=s all iniviuals acting in their own

perceive interest' &ome, this group or that group'

J$

air enough'

JA

%ven the censors in $hina of the /ublic &ecurit( @ureau, people who work there' Wh( o the(





























censor stuff an what o the( censor first< -=ll tell (ou what the( censor first< he( censor first the

thing that someone in the /olitburo might see' hat=s what the( censor first' he( are not actuall(

concerne about arknets'

J$

&orr(, about<

JA

he( are not concerne about arknets' @ecause their bosses can=t see what is on the arknet, an so

the( can=t be blame for not censoring it' We ha this fantastic case here in the !", we ha a whole

bunch of classifie ocuments from the !" militar(, an publishe a bunch' An then later on we

i a sort of preemptive O- which we o occasionall( on various governments when we can' &o

we i it on the !" ministr( of efense, 5ust to see whether the( were oing some investigation,

sort of a source protection to unerstan what is going on' &o we got back''' first the( pretene

the( were missing ocuments an we appeale an we got back a bunch of ocuments' An so it

showe that someone in there ha spotte that there was a bunch of !" militar( ocuments on our

website' About their surveillance programme' Another two thousan page ocument about how to

stop things leaking, an that the number one threat to the !" ministr( was investigative 5ournalists'&o that ha gone into some counterintelligence a a a a, an the( ha like, oh m( goo, it has

hunres of thousans of pages, an it is about all sorts of companies an it 5ust keeps going, an

it=s enless, it=s enlessC %>clamation marks, (ou know, five e>clamation marks' An that was like,

oka(, that is the iscover( phase, now the what is to be one phase' What is to be one< @ has the

contracts for the *o+' he( tol @ to censor us from them' &o ever(one in the !" *o+ coul no

longer rea what was on WikiLeaks' /roblem solveC

%&

-nteresting'

JA

-t=s like all the generals an their bosses an all these people coul no longer see that we ha *o+

stuff on there' An so now there is no more complaints an their problem is solve' &o

unerstanings like this might be uite avantageous to use in some of these s(stems' &o it means

that arknets for e>ample, if (ou unerstan the bureaucratic structures that emplo( people an give

them tasks alwa(s have that sort of thing going on then that means that arknets are gonna have a

prett( eas( time of it, until the( are so big that the( are not arknets an(more'

J$

)m' hat=s reall(''' that=s reall( reall( interesting' 7ou mentione investigative 5ournalism, o (ou'''

(ou=ve ha a lot of e>perience with 5ournalism b( now, in man( ifferent respects, i mean, how o

(ou see the kin of freeom of information that (ou are escribing, that (ou were escribing earlier,as fitting into 5ournalistic processes, if at all, or is it replacing it<

JA

4o it is, - mean it=s more how these 5ournalistic processes fit into something that is much bigger,

an the much bigger thing is that we as human beings shepher an create our intellectual histor( as

a civiliBation' An it is that intellectual histor( on the shelf that we can pull off to o stuff, an not

o the umb thing again' &omeone alrea( sai sai it was one an wrote about their e>perience

an we on=t o it again' An so there are several ifferent processes that are creating that recor

an other processes where people are tr(ing to estro( pieces of that recor an others that are

tr(ing to prevent people putting things into the recor' We all live off that intellectual recor, so

what we want to o is get as much into the recor, prevent as much as possible being elete fromthe recor, an then, an then have the recor as searchable as possible'

%&

















@ut one conseuence of this view is that actors will fin the generation of ver( large amounts of

misinformation strategic for them'

JA

7eah' &o this is another t(pe of censorship that - have thought about but on=t speak so much about'

Which is censorship through comple>it('

%&

)ie it' oo complicate'

JA

An that is basicall( the offshore financial sector' $ensorship through comple>it(' $ensorship of

what< $ensorship of political outrage' With enough political outrage there is law reform an enough

law reform (ou can=t o it an(more' &o wh( is it that all these careful ta> structuring arrangements

are so comple>< - mean, the( ma( be perfectl( legal, but wh( are the( so go amn comple>< Well,

because the ones that weren=t comple> were unerstoo an the ones that were unerstoo were

regulate, so (ou=re onl( left with the things that are increibl( comple>'

%&

*ore noise less signal, kin of'''

JA

7eah, e>actl(, e>actl('''

&*

@ut how in the future will people eal with the fact that the incentive to publish information that is

misleaing, wrong, manipulative, is ver( high' urthermore (ou can=t figure out who the ba

publisher was as well as the goo'''because there=s anon(mit( in the s(stem'

JA

7eah, so - suggeste' Well, the wa( it is right now is there is ver(''' first we must unerstan that the

wa( it is right now is ver( ba' rien of mine #reg *itchell wrote a book about the mainstream

meia, &o Wrong or &o Long' An that=s basicall( it' hat (es we have these heroic moments with

Watergate an @ernstein an so on, but, come on, actuall(, it=s never been ver( goo it=s alwa(s

been ver( ba' An these fine 5ournalists are an e>ception to the rule' An especiall( when (ou are

involve in something (ourself an (ou know ever( facet of it an (ou look to see what is reporte

b( it in the mainstream press, an (ou can see nake lies after nake lies' 7ou know that the

5ournalist knows it=s a lie, it is not a simple mistake, an then simple mistakes, an then people

repeating lies, an so on, that actuall( the conition of the mainstream press nowaa(s is so

appalling - on=t think it can be reforme' - on=t think that is possible' - think it has to beeliminate, an replace with something that is better'

J$

Which oes seem to be happeningC

:Laughter;

JA

7es, an - think things like, (ou know - have been pushing this iea of scientific 5ournalism that

things must be precisel( cite the original source or as much of it as possibl( available shoul be

put in the public omain so that people can look at it, 5ust like in science so that (ou can test to see

whether the conclusion comes from the e>perimental ata' Otherwise (ou probabl( 5ust mae it up'7ou coul have 5ust mae it up' An in fact that is what happens all the time people 5ust make it up'

An the( make it up to such a egree that we are le to war' - mean most''' *ost wars in the 20th





















centur( have starte as a result of lies' Amplifie an sprea b( the mainstream press' An (ou go,

well that is a horrible circumstance, that is terrible that all these wars start with lies' An - sa( no,

this is a tremenous opportunit(, because it means that populations basicall( on=t like wars an

the( have to be lie into it' An that means we can be truthe into peace' An so that is the

e>tremel( optimistic thing' @ut this, how o (ou istinguish publishers, truthful publishers,

untruthful publishers, this is a reputation business' An so what - woul like is that part of that

repetitional business, like in science, where is (our ata< 7ou=re not proviing (our ata, wh( thehell shoul - take this seriousl(< -s that now that we can publish on the internet, now that there is

ph(sicall( room for the ata, newspapers on=t have ph(sical room for the primar( source, now that

there is ph(sical room for the primar( source, it shoul be there an we shoul create a stanar

that it shoul be there' An sure people can eviate from this stanar, but well (ou eviate from

the stanar, if (ou can=t be bothere proviing us with the primar( source ata wh( shoul we pa(

an( attention to what (ou are writing< 7ou=re not treating the reaer with respect' -t=s not falsifiable

therefore, therefore we can pa( no attention to it' @ut the issue of reputation, this is an important

issue' )ow o things have reputation< Well, part of the wa( that the( have reputation is b( this

coupling of something happens, someone else sa(s something about it, someone else sa(s

something about that, etc' An this is a series of citations as information flows from one person to

another an the( augment it an so on' or that to be strong (ou nee this naming s(stem' Wherewhat (ou are rel(ing on is not some startup website that 5ust appears tomorrow, or some compan(

that in=t like it an has moifie it or is being sue out of e>istence' &o that, - think, woul help

with reputation' $omple>it( is harer' - think that is a big problem' &o when things become open

things ten to become more comple>, because people start hiing what the( are oing, their ba

behaviour, through comple>it(' An so that will be bureaucratic ouble speak is an e>ample' When

things get bureaucratiBe an so on, an ever(thing becomes meal( mouthe, an so that=s a cost of

openness' -s that kin of bureaucratiBation, an in the offshore sector (ou see increible comple>it(

in the la(ers of things happening to one another so the( become impenetrable' An of course

cr(ptograph( is an intellectual s(stem that has specialiBe in making things as comple> as possible'

hose things are har to attack' On the other han comple> s(stems are also har to use' &o

bureaucracies an internal communications s(stems which have this, which are full of weasel wors

an arse covering, are inefficient internal communications s(stems' An similarl(, those

tremenousl( comple> offshore structuring arrangements are actuall( inefficient' @ut ma(be (ou=re

ahea when the ta> regime is high, but if the ta> regime is Bero (ou=re not going to be ahea at all'

&orr(, if the ta> regime is 3, (ou=re not going to be ahea at all, (ou=re going to be choke b( the

comple>it('

J$

Well, if the( weren=t inefficient then ever(bo( woul have their mone( offshore Julian'

JA

7eah, that=s right'

J$

- mean that as a 5oke, but it=s probabl( true, heh'

JA

4o, that=s true'

J$

Let me 5ust a that uh'''

JAhere is a battle between all of these things going on' With ifferent people, economic ifferent'''

see - on=t see a ifferent between government an big corporations an small corporations, actuall(















this is all one continuum, these are all s(stems that are tr(ing to get as much power as possible' &o

that=s what the( are' A general is tr(ing to get as much power for his section of the arm(, an so on'

he( avertise, the( prouce something that the( claim is a prouct, people bu( it, people on=t bu(

it, the( comple>if( in orer to hie the flaws in their prouct an the( spin, so - on=t see a big

ifference between government an non government actors in that wa(' here is one ifference

about the eplo(ment of coercive force but even there we see that well connecte corporations are

able to tap into the governmental s(stem an the court s(stem an are able to eplo(''' effectivel(eplo( coercive force, b( sening police to o ebt reuisition or kicking emplo(ees out of the

office'

J$

$an - 5ust ask (ou about the same thing but sort of in reverse which is the wa(s in which the sources

of information as iniviuals can an can=t be protecte, in other wors how can their information

be anon(mous, so that the( on=t pa( a price for circulating it' an (ou know ma(be with one

e>ample from 4orth "orea or -ran for e>ample from the !&, an the ifferences between those

scenarios'

JA

here is man( wa(s for people to transmit anon(mousl(' One of the greatest ifficulties for sources

is their pro>imit( to the material' &o if the( have high pro>imit( to it an it=s a limite number of

people know it' -t actuall( oesn=t matter what technical mechanism (ou then appl( at the top' -t

woul be uite ifficult for them to evae scrutin(' An it oesn=t matter what countr( or regime

(ou are in' @ut s(stematic in5ustice b( efinition is going to have to involve man( people' An so

while the inner sanctum of cabinet, ma(be (ou cannot safel( get recors out of this, but as those

ecisions start spreaing own to lower levels if the( are to affect man( people man( people must

have either the high level planning that prouces some un5ust conseuence or the shaow of it' &o

ma(be the whole plan isn=t visible b( the time it gets own to the grunts but some component of it is

visible' An this struck me when we got hol of the two main manuals for #uantanamo @a(' he

2003 manual was the first one we got hol of, written b( *a5or''' b( #eneral Jeffre( *iller, whosubseuentl( went over to Abu #hraib, to #*OiBe it, as +onal umsfel calle it, so that

manual ha all sorts of abuses in it an one of the ones that - was surprise to see was e>plicit

instructions to falsif( recors for the e $ross' An how man( people have rea this manual< Well

all the prison captains at #uantanamo @a( ha rea this' Wh( woul (ou risk telling the grunts this

sort of information< -t wasn=t even classifie' he( mae it unclassifie or Official !se Onl(

wh(< @ecause it=s more e>pensive to get people who have classification clearance' -f (ou want to

hire contractors without classification clearance it is cheaper' 7ou can=t whisper to the coal face' 7ou

can=t have the presient whispering to the coal face' @ecause the coal face, because the coal face is

too big' 7ou can=t have the presient whispering to the intermeiaries, because then (ou en up with

$hinese whispers that means (our instructions are not carrie out' &o if (ou take information off

the paper, if (ou take it outsie of the electronic or ph(sical paper trail, the instructions eca(' An

that=s wh( all organiBations of an( scale have rigorous paper trails for the instructions from the

leaership' @ut b( efinition if (ou tr(''' if (ou want people to o something, (ou are going to have

to have those form of instructions' Which means there is alwa(s going to be a paper trail, e>cept for

small group ecisions' &mall group ecisions that on=t en up going to the coal face' An

instructing hunres of people''' are the( so important in the scheme of things<

%&

We went to @erlin, there is a place where the( signe the final orer, what=s it calle<

L&

inal solution' Wannsee'

%&













Wannsee, an these are #ermans' &o the( ocumente ever(thing'

L&

ascinating'

%&

&o it=s e>actl( (our point, so that in orer to kill si> million Jews, (ou actuall( have to write itown'

JA

-t=s a big logistical process'

J$

Absolutel(, an man( man( man( people ha to be implicate, what the proceures were an so on'

An here are the pictures of people an their signatures an so forth'

L&

*inutes of the meeting'''

%&

-t was like, seriousl( :inauible;' his is the banalit( of evil'

L&

-nee'

JA

7es, but this is one of the first things''' internal arguments - ha with other people in 200H' While

oka(, (ou have a goo get, (ou e>pose some organiBation an show it has been abusing something

in some wa(, an it 5ust takes something off paper' Well ne>t thing it oes, well the( 5ust take it, an

ever(thing will go to oral form an so on' 4o, that=s not going to happen, because, if it oes go thatwa(, fine, the( take ever(thing off paper, if the( internall( balkaniBe, so that information can=t be

leake, what is the cost< here is a tremenous cost to the organiBational efficienc(, of oing that'

&o that means this abusive organiBation simpl( becomes less powerful in its struggle for economic

euilibrium an political euilibrium with all other organiBations'

%&

his is the inverse of (our argument about empowering the issients in %g(pt' he( neee &*&

to communicate' -n (our argument, b( stopping the inabilit( to coorinate at this level, the inverse

of (our argument' Literall( the inverse of the first'''

JA7eah, so '''

%&

Well, (our argument woul be if (ou take those tools awa('''

JA

7eah, well, - sa( the( take them awa( themselves in a wa(' Once things can become public' &o wh(

is it that people engage''' wh( is it that powerful organiBations there is all sorts of reasons wh(

nonpowerful organiBations engage in secrec(, which to m( view is legitimate, the( nee it, because

the( are powerless' @ut wh( o powerful organiBations engage in secrec(< Well, usuall( because

the plans that the( have if mae public woul be oppose b( the public' An plans that are oppose before implementation often on=t get implemente' &o (ou want to wait as long as possible' An

then implementation eventuall( makes them public b( the ver( fact that the( are being implemente



























but it is too late b( then to alter the course effectivel(' &o an organiBation on the other han that is

engage in planning behaviour that if reveale is not oppose b( the public oesn=t have that

buren' -t oesn=t have that planning buren where it is force to take things off paper' &o this will

be an efficient organiBation, this will not be an efficient organiBation, an in the mi> as the( o

economic an political battle, it will euilibriate out, these gu(s will shrink an these gu(s will

grow'

%&

-s that (our funamental 5ustification, o (ou think''' for this, for the work that (ou=re in<

JA

unamental 5ustification is that, there is reall( two' irst of all, the human civiliBation, its goo

part, is base upon our full intellectual recor, an our intellectual recor shoul be as large as

possible if humanit( is to be as avance as possible' he secon is that in practice releasing

information is positive to those engage in acts that the public support an negative to those

engage in acts that the public oes not support'

%&

:inauible;

JA

7eah

%&

''':inauible; general restraint'

JA

Well, it can create a reress for an act of in5ustice that is reveale an that=s nice' @ut the larger

effect is that it creates isincentives for organiBations that are to create un5ust plans or engage inun5ust acts'

%&

One more''' -n 10 (ears, what oes this worl look like< -n other wors if (ou e>trapolate this

argument'''

JA

Well, we are at a bit of a crossroas, no< -t coul go either wa('

J$

An optimistic scenario' What is the best scenario< )a ha ha'

JA

&o remember /hilip Kimmermann=s /#/ case<

%&

7es

JA

hat was 5ust a gran 5ur( investigation' -t was moeratel( serious' @ut he wasn=t convicte' 4o one

at that time was being convicte, the( were being investigate' -t change the behaviour of tens of

thousans of people who were involve in choosing to put cr(ptograph( into programs or not' All

sorts of torture cop(right assignments an inter software compan( structuring arrangements, anhow coe was eplo(e, were engage in, 5ust from that negative signal of a gran 5ur(

investigation' &o what that means is that signals about what behaviour is acceptable, what behaviour



























(ou can get awa( with an what behaviour is beneficial to iniviuals engaging in it an what

behaviour is not, changes how man( people behave' &o we are at a crossroas now where those

organiBations that are fighting against those people who want to be able to publish freel( an

isclose important information to the public''' - can=t remember the beginning of this sentence now'

J$

7ou sai we are at a crossroas now where those organiBations that are fighting against those peoplewho want to be able to publish freel( an isclose important information to the public'

JA

-t was prett( long wasn=t it< Oka(, hah' '''$oul prouce if successful a signal which iscourages

ever(one or almost ever(one from engaging in those activities, or we an people who share our

values coul be successful an that will then become the new norm of accepte behaviour'

%&

An what are the necessar( conitions for that to occur for the latter< - can easil( imagine the

necessar( conitions for the former'

JA

%ver(one gives mone( to WikiLeaks' hat is the main'''

:laughter;

J$

- in=t even hear thatC

%&

%ver(one gives mone( to WikiLeaks'

L&

)a ha ha'

:laughter;

J$

Are (ou taking @itcoin<

:laughter;

JA

7es' 7es' !m' &o it is uite interesting to know whether, if people rea this an then act will the(

actuall( be enough to change the result' hat is wh( we are at a ver( interesting perio an - thinkwe are literall( at this crossroas an a little bit more push to one irection or another coul change

the outcome a lot' &o people shoul, if the( want to see the values that we promote succee,

promote those organiBations an iniviuals that represent those values an start taking on oing it

themselves'

J$

- was going to sa(, or become it'

JA

























7eah, become it' @ecome representations of those values themselves' - am alwa(s hesitant in sa(ing

that ever(one shoul go out an be a mart(r' @ecause i on=t believe that' - believe the most

effective activists are those that fight an run awa(' 4ot those who fight an mart(r themselves, but

those who fight an run awa( to fight another a(' &o that=s about 5ugement, when to engage in the

fight an when to withraw so as to preserve (our resources for the ne>t fight'

J$

Woul (ou make the argument that fighting an running awa( is not that not ifferent, like

ph(sicall( fighting an running awa( is not that ifferent from fighting anon(mousl( so long as (ou

are sufficientl( competent that (our anon(mit('''

JA

-f (ou have perfect anon(mit( (ou can fight forever, (eah' 7ou on=t have to run awa('

&*

/rerun awa('

:laughter;

J$

hat=s it in essence' /rerun awa('

JA

Well, (ou can lower the courage threshol, - mean that is one of the nice things anon(mit( oes'

@ut ma(be it is not the right wa( to put it' - mean, people often sa(, (ou are tremenousl(

courageous in oing what (ou are oing, an - sa(, no no (ou misunerstan what courage is'

$ourage is not the absence of fear' Onl( fools have no fear' ather courage is the intellectual

master( of fear b( unerstaning the true risks an opportunities of the situation' An in keeping

these things in balance' An not simpl( having pre5uice about what the risks are' @ut actuall(

testing them' here are all sorts of m(ths that go aroun about what can be one an what cannot beone' -t is important to test' 7ou on=t test b( 5umping off a brige' 7ou test b( 5umping off a

footstool, an then 5umping off something a bit higher an a bit higher'

J$

Actuall(, to follow up to that, it goes back to what &cott was asking about the relationship between

the person proviing information an the person receiving it' -f we look at all the ifferent societies

aroun the worl, presumabl( not ever(one is starting on the same level pla(ing fiel' here are

some people who 5ust have a greater eucation of the risks associate with using these tools' here

are some people who are going to provie information in societies where the governments aren=t as

vigilant, an some where the( are ver( vigilant' -t woul seem that in a place, now on=t get me

wrong, like 4orth "orea, where the combination of ver( vigilant regimes, with populations that arestill relativel( new to these tools an the risks associate with them ma( not be able to have that

unerstaning of the true risks of the situation, an the opportunities that might be available that

(ou are mentioning'

JA

- think the( are capable of learning' Like ever(one else' hese societies are much more political

than the West' /eople like to talk about politics over inner ever( night' &o - am not sure it is right

to take a Western perspective an think that these people on=t unerstan the lot that the( are in'

Also, the e>trinsic risks might be higher' he other risks associate with conucting a political life

ma( alrea( be uite high' &o one has to keep these risks in proportion' Also the potential rewars

are much greater' One might be involve in a ver( gran historic moment, an become swept up in

it' An because we all onl( live once, we all suffer the continuous risk of not having live our life

well' %ver( (ear' %ver( (ear that is not use is 100 waste, it=s not a risk of that, it is a ea bet'

















%&

)ere=s an asie for (ou' A few weeks ago - was with Warren @uffett''' who=s F' An - sai What are

(ou up to< An he sai =his ne>t (ear will be the best (ear of m( life' An - thought ok'''

:chuckles;

&*

- nee to go the rest room' !pstairs<

%&

&o - thought ok' )e=s obviousl( pla(ing with me, an then - figure it out that if (ou=re H, then the

ne>t (ear is going to be the best (ear of the rest of (our life' @ecause at some point there is going to

be a (ear where it=s not going to be so goo' An then (ou are going to be ea' An so, - love that,

right' his ne>t is going to be the best (ear'

:laughter;

L&

Julian how o (ou feel about photographs for the book< +o (ou min if - take snapshots of (ougu(s 5ust working< )ow o (ou< 7ou can see them< !p to (ou' - woul 5ust take shots this wa(,

an then that wa('

JA

Of who oing what, e>actl(<

L&

Of (ou gu(s talking' Just conversation'

JA

Oh that=s alright'%&

!sing m( &EI camera

L&

:inauible; 7es' %>actl(, it=s a ver( high tech operation going on here

:chatter;

JA

Just on=t sa( an(thing antisemitic for the ne>t few months'

:laughter;

%&

We woul never sa( an(thing antisemitic'

JA

4o no, it=s 5ust the last the last this ussian 5ournalist came over an took a photo of me an then he

is a, he is a sort of, his name is -srael &hamir, he is as Jewish as coul possibl( be, but he is ver(, he

converte to ussian Orthoo>, an is antiJuaistic, an so he then put this out in ussian eporter

or something with this photo of me, an - starte to cop it, in the most unbelievable wa('

%&

-nteresting'





























7ou an - both unerstan the costs of negative publicit('

JA

-t=s 5ust a 5oke, but, (ou know' - know (ou have been well teste'

%&

- am ver( well teste, - am ver( well behave':chatter, laughing;

%&

One of the more, the criticism that is constant, is that amage has occurre because of WikiLeaks' -

can=t fin it (et' +o (ou have a reasone'''

JA

Well there is, it=s a rhetorical trick' &o'''

%&

7ou unerstan the uestion an wh( - ask it<

JA

7eah (eah'

%&

- unerstan the case it gets''' (our version''' Which obviousl( we are s(mpathetic to, so'''

JA

!p until $ollateral *urer we were a cause celebre in the !nite &tates, actuall( we are still a

cause celebre, but it is in a smaller libertarian or left wing or libertarian right wing communit( now'

@ut, an across, accoring to euters across 2G countries we have over three uarters support of thegeneral population' 2G countries' -t=s the worst in the !nite &tates' &o we have support of over

G0 of the population, which is prett( goo actuall(, consiering what has been happening' &o, as a

result of embarrassing the !& militar( an iplomatic class we have ha a counterattack' An that

counterattack is significant' his is a ver( significant power group' An it is a power group that is

not 5ust at the top of the White )ouse' -t is not 5ust a few generals' ather it is all the people

connecte to an profiting from that s(stem' An that=s about a thir of the !& population' &o all

the wa( from $helsea $linton own to the someone in the gutters of &an Antonio whose brother is

eplo(e in -ra' here are E00,000 people in the !& with op &ecret securit( clearances at this

moment' here are 2 an a half million that have classifie securit( clearances' -f we go back over

the past 20 (ears an ask how man( people ha securit( clearances, ma(be it is 1I million' -f (ou

then go an look at all their spouses an business partners an chilren we are looking at somethinglike 30 of the population of the !nite &tates' -t is one egree remove from that wa( of living

an that ieological structure an that patronage s(stem' &o it is uite ifferent in the !nite &tates

to sa( something that is against that s(stem' An the 4ew 7ork imes has foun to its peril when it

tries to speak out against it, so in its relationships with us when it publishe material ha to react

ver( efensivel(' -n a wa( to someone outsie the !nite''' no, - think that even traitional !&

5ournalists think this' -t is sickening to see a newspaper of an( strength sa(ing literall( how please

those wors the White )ouse was with its behaviour' &o if we look at the attacks on us, the( alwa(s

talk about the wors place people at risk' @ut risk relative to what< ight now we are at risk of a

meteorite passing through the roof of this house an killing us all' hat is a risk that is true' @ut is it

a proportionate risk< -s it a risk that is significant enough that it is even worth speaking about< Well,

the answer is no' &imilarl( with the wor possibilit(' here is a possibilit( that a meterorite coulescen on us all in this moment, but it is not a probabilit(' &o these rhetorical tricks are often use

b( people who are making their argument in relation to securit(' here is a risk of something there



















is a possibilit( of something' What has to be one is people nee to engage in an intellectual

efense against manipulation b( rhetoric b( unerstaning that if someone mentions that there is a

risk without sa(ing the risk is higher than crossing the roa, or the risk is twice that of being stung

b( a bee, then (ou must ignore it' &imilarl( with possibilit( versus probabilit('

J$

7eah, - can o all this in m( hea too' Are there e>amples where a positive outcome coul beirectl( trace to WikiLeaks in the political sphere that (ou woul want to highlight< &omething

that is a specific tangible positive outcome<

JA

he most significant one seems to be the Arab &pring'

J$

7ou woul argue that WikiLeaks was out there'''

JA

Well Amnest( -nternational i in its latest report an unisian professors i, because m( irectinvolvement it woul be unseeml( for me to argue that irectl(, an - am not certain about irectl('

- am certain that we affecte it' An we were eepl( involve in it'

%&

-nfluence it'

JA

- am certain that we influence it' An that=s''' that is reall( something, a great moment' &omething

- am certain about is that we change the outcome of the "en(an election in 200' here has been

man( ministers whose scalps were taken an people being force to resign an so on' hose are

concrete an clear actions an one might argue that the( are positive if (ou in=t like the gu(, an(ou woul argue that the( were negative if (ou i like the gu(, so - on=t reall( want to mention

those ones'

%&

7es, if - go back to (our earlier argument that the effect on a single iniviual is not (our actual

goal' he actual effect is to change the s(stem in some funamental wa(' @ecause (ou make the

argument that these s(stems become fiscaliBe, (ou know, the( are static, inepenent of an(

pressure, so an e>ample of a trul( large influence woul be a revolution' ight<

JA

7eah, well it is something that''' (ou can make man( of these sort of large influences without these

ichotomatic events' @ut the ichotomatic events are eas( to binar( events are ver( eas( to talk

about an also are provable'

%&

-t=s also a marketing prop' 7ou want to have a marketing stor('

JA

7eah, so one part( or another part( wins the election an it change' hat is a ver( clear outcome'

here is a revolution' One group is in power, an then another group is in power, it is a ver( clear

change' - suspect that the other changes we have ha such as liberaliBation of the publishing

environment - suspect is the most significant one that we have been involve in, an something we

have pushe for man( (ears' here is no wa( that what we i last (ear we coul have one four

(ears ago' -t woul not have been possible'























%&

)ow come< echnologicall(< or in terms of<

JA

echnologicall( it was all perfectl( possible' he ifference is a shift in the status uo' WikiLeaks

became the status uo' &o that wasn=t alwa(s so' +uring the first two (ears we were battling for

whether we were something that was acceptable to be on the internet or not' After two (ears, anspeciall( after the @ank Julius @aer case, where we were involve in a big legal case in &an

rancisco''' on the one han us, an on the other han the largest private &wiss banking concern

bank Julius @aer, that was tr(ing to shut us own' Which we conclusivel( won' An cost them their

!& -/O as a result' hat sort of sent out a signal that there is a place in the worl for a publisher like

WikiLeaks' An then we starte to cement that place as time went b(' An now we have reall(

cemente it because we ha a case where the /entagon stoo up in public, back in October 2010

an gave a G0 minute press conference with their spokesperson #eoff *orrell, sa(ing that

WikiLeaks must an me personall( must estro( ever(thing we previousl( publishe that ha

been erive from the /entagon' hat we must estro( ever(thing we were going to publish' An

cease ealing with !& militar( whistleblowers' he precise terminolog( use was to return

ever(thing that we ha ever publishe, return ever(thing that we were going to publish, an cease

soliciting information of !& militar( personnel, or !& government personnel' Or, the /entagon

woul compel us to o so' An when aske b( a 5ournalist at the press conference what

mechanisms o (ou have to compel them, the response was, well, look this is the /entagon, we are

not concerne about the law'

:sniggering;

JA

hat=s perhaps a matter for the +epartment of Justice, or the attorne( general or something'

J$

When (ou watche that, i (ou get the impression that the( were 5ust an unbelievable amount of

naivete or lack of unerstaning about the actual technolog( or technical aspects of this that woul

make that impossible'

JA

- i, but then later on - evelope a sophisticate unerstaning of what was going on in that press

conference'

J$

- actuall( starte out ver( unsophisticate' )a ha ha'

JA

&o what was actuall( going on' his was a carefull(''' - mean, it seems riiculous' Wh( woul the

/entagon act like a victim< Wh( woul the( look so riiculous an powerless< Wh( woul the(

utter''' give a eman that the( were not capable of fulfilling, it woul make them look weak< -t

was a carefull( constructe legal message, esigne to embroil us in the !& %spionage Act' -t was

the notification, like (ou see in the newspapers'

%&

7eah'

JA

We eman that (ou o this' his is the t(pe of information that will cause grave harm to !&

national securit(' We make a press conference so that we can argue that all those WikiLeaks people





















have seen it' hen the ne>t thing the( publish the( will emonstrate intent' &o espite the fact that

the( have been informe that this is amiss, the( i it an(wa(, therefore the( have intent, because

(ou can=t accientall( commit espionage'

&*

hat=s wh( the( are concerne with the past an not 5ust the present' @ecause there has to be a

pattern of practice an an as long as its instances of fresh instance then there is no pattern'JA

7eah, but in sa(ing, no, we i uickl(, actuall(, before we ha unerstoo what the legal trap was'

@ut in sa(ing no an then in relativel( short orer proucing the -rai War +iaries, which is one of

the best things we=ve ever one'''

:chatter;

JA

Oka(' We can go into the other room'

:chatter, moving;J$

'''increasingl( using WikiLeaks information as a source an one sometimes one without even

mentioning that it was a source sometimes''' it=s a sociolog( of information which is fascinating'

JA

Well, in the beginning the( wouln=t, now the( o' -t gives them more prestige now to sa( that it

came from us than to'''

J$

- know, - know, - know' -t is, it is'

JA

-=ll 5ust show (ou something funn(' -=ll 5ust show (ou something''' +o (ou like our''' slogan<

%&

"eep calm an carr('' ha ha ha' he secon worl warC )a ha ha'

J$

hat=s looks like an original one though'''

&*

We were amiring the pictures of all the''' of all the'''

:chatter;

JA

&o these are .aughan=s ancestors' hat=s .aughan there, m( frien' hat=s from Afghanistan earlier

this (ear'

&*

)e=s some sort of reporter t(pe, right<

JA

A war reporter'

J$































-=m sorr(, who is this<

JA

his is the owner of the house, m( frien, .aughan &mith'

J$

Oh, right, right' -=ve been to his clubCJA

7eah, so he=s a war reporter' Although he was in the #renaier #uars originall(, an then he, -

think he unerstoo, (ou coul go to the other sie' )e went to the other sie, but also, (ou coul

go to more wars as a war reporter, than as a'''

J$

)a ha ha' An ifferent ones' -t=s better that wa(' his is his famil(<

JA

hese are all famil(' hat=s his father an mother' An the( both live here' -n a house, on the ege

of the village'

J$

&o it=s a militar( famil( from a little wa(s'''

JA

he other interesting gu( is that gu( right there, iger &mith, there=s rakish looking one with the

collar up, who is famous for killing EE tigers back when that sort of thing was approve of' &aving

-nians'

J$

&o he was a ra5 figure of some kin<

JA

7eah, but, so here is the come(' his meal.aughan=s father was the Dueen=s messenger, so that

means he woul go on aeroplanes an eliver messages' 4ow, see this bag in his han there' &o (ou

know what=s in this bag'

J$

&tate secrets'

JA

+iplomatic cablesC

%&

)a ha ha ha ha haC

:laughter;

%&

hat=s great'

JA

&o he woul go on the $oncore, an have a seat to the left an an a seat to the right which was

fille with cable bags an eliveries, sometimes the( woul take computers as well, people come

into the ba( of the airplane an guie it in an make sure it=s not stolen' An another gu( is waiting

at the other en to take it'































L&

An what oes he sa( about it<

JA

Well he=s sort of, horrifie on the one han an eepl( please on the other, because if the(= 5ust

use him none of this woul have happeneC

J$

)a ha ha ha haC

%&

An before we ask, let me 5ust ask (ou=ve been here for about H months<

JA

%ight months'

&*

%ight months' &o this is (our home'

J$

Well, it=s a lovel( place'

JA

We got these this morning, because - have to go to the police station ever( a(, unfortunatel( - get

craBe fans turning up there'

J$

Oh reall(< he( then o things< :inistinct;

JA

his was a rench girl who rove up from rance'

L&

eall(<

JA

-=ve ha girls who rive from rance, $atalonia, 4orwa(, she in=t rive from 4orwa(, she flew

from 4orwa(, Amsteram, we ha a gu( from the !& sol his boat an came over here' $aptain

*organ'

%&

)ow far is it to the police station<

JA

About 1I minutes' 20 minutes'

JA

he woman from $atalonia was the most amusing, so she turne up at the rontline $lub an trie

to convince them that she was WikiLeaks staff, Wikileaks star &panish programmer'

%&

)a ha ha ha ha haC

JA





































An she in=t know an(thing about programming, she 5ust gave some technobabble, an the(

assume it was true' An then after a while the( were like uh, well (ou can=t reall( go an see

Julian, he=s in seclusion, but ok, so, the( put her up for free for one night' An she ha this habit of

listening in on a bit of conversation an then sort of reincorporating it into her stor(' An the ne>t

a(? Oh - know this person, oh look there=s so an soC

%&

)a ha ha ha

JA

&o within two a(s this ha all come unone an she ha been sent along' An then two weeks later

there is a phone call sa(ing ohC &orr(, two weeks later - am here, an the police come to the oor,

an the( are sa(ing, o (ou know''' :MMMM;< :MMMM;< :MMMM; who<7our fianceeC

:laughter;

JA

4oC noCWell she sta(e at this propert( all nightC An she sa(s that (ou are going to pa( the ta>i

billC

L&

:gasps;

JA

An -=m like what ta>i bill< &o it turns out that she ha come from $atalonia, to Lonon, got a black

cab from Lonon to here, five hunre pouns, she ha fift( pouns, convince the ta>i river that

her rich famous fiancee woul pa( for it, it=s 5ust a bit of a ispute at the moment but it will all sort

out in the morning' hen she ha gone to the ege of the propert(, an convince them that she was

m( fiancee' An the ta>i river wouln=t go because he wante his mone(' he people at the ege of

the propert( put them both up for the night'

:laughter;

J$

At what point o (ou 5ust pa( her for the creativit(''' for the entertainment''' - mean it=s so creative,

it=s almost impressive'

JA

hen she was eventuall( arreste for fare evasion' @ecause no one woul pa( the bill' aile to

appear on ebruar( 1G, .alentine=s +a('''

:laughter;

JA

'''with bail conitions that she couln=t appear in 4orfolk, so she flew back to $atalonia, so then we

see on her acebook page that she is still going on about how in love she is, an there is these

terrible women that live here''

J$

he harpiesC

JA

prevente her the harpies prevente her from coming in contact with me'&*

























/roving that ever(thing on the internet is absolutel( true' %ver( single fact'

J$

%speciall( acebookC

&*

%speciall( acebook'L&

Wow' -nteresting'

%&

Woul (ou like'''

J$

4o -=m goo' -=m goo actuall('

%&

- want to be sensitive to (our energ( an time' - think, it woul be interesting to talk a bit about'''

JA

*a(be we shoul go for a walk, then'

%&

-t woul be interesting to talk about the various whatif scenarios' hat=s what we=re intereste in,

because Jare an - o this all the time' 7ou know what are some scenarios that coul pla( out' 7ou

know, tr( to actuall( think about it' 7ou=ve all these ifferent actors an pla(ers, an (ou obviousl(

think about it, (ou=re basicall( a ph(sicist, right' 7ou think about it that wa(' &o'''

:walking on stones;J$

-n thinking about what if scenarios' -t can actuall( be useful to think, what if, in the past' Like what

if we=re sitting there, one of our chapters looks at intervention, in the conte>t of the wanan

genocie, but - think it is actuall( a more useful conversation from unerstaning the role of

WikiLeaks to ask, (ou know, in 1EEG, at the technological stage of the worl toa(, technological

state of the worl now ha been the technological state of the worl then, an WikiLeaks was

aroun uring the wanan genocie what might have change< )ow might things have been

ifferent<

JA

Just wonering if the weather will change'

J$

7eah, @ritish weather' )a ha'

JA

he wanan genocie' 7es, - think it woul have been' - think it woul have been a bit ifferent' -f

the( ha internet an a number of phones in wana, - think the message woul have come out

more, although ma(be not that much' - mean, in the $ongo, all the ba things happening in $ongo

aren=t reall( getting much traction in the West'

&*

his is a fantastic tree' -t keeps us totall( r('





























J$

- guess, - mean that sort of there is a larger =what if= uestions here' -t is part what if, an part wh('

Like wh( haven=t there been people in places like -ran or 4orth "orea or $ongo, releasing

ocuments in the same wa( as there have been in sa( in Western emocracies'

JA

Well, we have actuall(, we have gotten a material from -ran' - think, it=s not that eas( to o aWikiLeaks, in combination of technicalities an reputation an funing an so on' -t=s not that eas(

to o' An we''' so that=s keeping a reputation'

%&

Oka(, let us 5ust ask the uestion bluntl(' Wh( are (ou not getting enormous numbers of

anon(mous !&@ rives about the ba ocuments in African countries that are run b( these evil

ictator t(pes<

JA

We have, we actuall('''

%&

+on=t (ou think that ever(one woul be incentiviBe to use (ou< &houln=t the(<

JA

We have gotten some ecent African stuff' +ecent %ast imorese stuff' Lots of ecent Latin

American stuff'

%&

-s it because these governments on=t write own as much of this stuff<

JA

he( are not as networke' &ome of them, like the anBanian government use kisswahili,the( on=t

use %nglish as their governmental language' A lot of it is to o 5ust whether the( perceive whether

WikiLeaks is a political actor within their countr(' &o for %ast imor once we starte oing a little

bit of %ast imor, we got a lot more of %ast imor' An then a sort of floo opene up' An it 5ust

became routine for them to give us material' @ut the( nee to perceive that we are part of the

communit(' or ussia - think our''' the small amount of material that we have release about

ussia, although now we have this !leaks, that has been oing prett( well, but historicall( a small

amount of material that we have been releasing from ussia is actuall( a positive sign, in that the

ussian internet sphere is ver( vibrant'

%&

7eah - was 5ust there, it=s amaBing'

JA

&o it feels that''' (ou know, it oesn=t look outsie so much' Wh( woul it look at an %nglish

language website like WikiLeaks' -t has its sort of nonprofit activist 5ournalists an opposition an

so on are all in that internet sphere, which is relativel( free, compare to ussian ., so the( on=t

see that the( reall( nee this other avenue'

J$

-t 5ust seems like'''

JA

here was a site that''' there was a publication of a whole loa of &@ ocuments, on an American



























server, which was then immeiatel( hacke an then taken own, an the( were never seen again' -t

is not so eas( to publish against powerful state actors, actuall('

J$

7ou=ve talke a lot about the importance of the name, it=s been sort of - think an important theme in

this conversation an so it makes me woner how much the kin of''' there=s the ebut, when the

site goes live, then there=s the ma5or ebut where it becomes a househol term or a househol name,an one of the things that we are pla(ing aroun with in the book'''

JA

We haven=t properl( use that (et though''' - mean, we haven=t been able to grow as fast as the name

has been able to grow'

J$

/eople know what WikiLeaks is, an - woner ha the first batch of ocuments that (ou receive

been from a sa( -ran or from a 4orth "orea an release if we woul have, if the worl woul have

looke at it as a whistleblowing platform'''

JA

-t iC he worl iC +i up until we starte proucing a high volume of !& militar( stuff' We

were proucing ma(be thousans of pages of !& militar( stuff back in 200'''

%&

An nobo( notice'

J$

hat=s interesting'

%&

@ecause of the collateral amage vieo'''

JA

Well nobo(''' people notice the #uantanamo stuff, but not to the househol name' We were a

5ournalistic name prett( uickl(' An in the techno part of the human rights communit( we were a

name prett( uickl(' An we were in the internet eucate #erman an %nglish speaking publics,

especiall( towars the cr(ptosecurit( en we were a name prett( uickl(' &o for e>ample when we

i a funraising effort in the beginning of 2010 to *a( 2010, before $ollateral *urer, we raise a

million bucks' &o (ou know for a new sort of, new in terms of concept, non profit 5ournalism group

to raise a million bucks in 20 ollar onations that=s almost completel( unhear of An we were

oing that before $ollateral *urer' &o $ollateral *urer mae us into a worlwie''' no not even

collateral murer i(' *ae us into a !& househol name' All these things start to stack up' @( the

en of the (ear, an reall( it was the /entagon=s attack against us, an the &weish se> case funnil(

enough, that then mae us into a worlwie househol name with FG name recognition

worlwie'

J$

Wow'

%&

hat=s interesting' &o, on the assumption that the current legal stuff is all resolve, the ne>t few

(ears are''' what happens with WikiLeaks, it becomes''' Again, we want to talk about for us tN0 is a

(ear from now, so we=re thinking about a (ear from now, ne>t (ear the ne>t (ear' +oes WikiLeaks

5ust become bigger, more onors, more technolog(, (ou going to change it in some wa(<























JA

here is lots of changes' - think this iea - ha about how to structure intellectual information is

important' &o we will overla( that'''

%&

&o that=s''' that=s actuall( a part of (our plan, that (ou=re talking about'

JA

When (ou o have a presence''' When (ou have such public recognition, (ou have the lu>ur( of

being able to take fairl( comple> intellectual ieas an push them up' hat woul normall( take a

long time to sort of organicall( get traction, like &un i with Java, for e>ample, the( take a long

time to organicall( get traction, but (ou can put (our weight behin them an push them up so we

have some of those moves we can make' @ut also -=ve seen that it=s ver( ifficult for us to be a

comman an control organiBation' 7ou spoke about the ifficulties that (ou ha to learn with

4ovell, but for us as an organiBation, like a comman an control organiBation with a leaership

an people who carr( out tasks, we are in a position where we have the full force of a superpower

an its investigative organs, an the rest of 4AO, operating against us, bribing people, monitoring

communications, etc, so that means that for us an( little ps(chological weakness in our people, an(friction between our people, can lea to those forces plucking them off'

%&

7ou coul be infiltrate (ou mean' -n theor('

JA

7eah' -nfiltrate' he plucking off - think is a bigger problem'

%&

4o - mean''' @ut the forces oppose to (ou'''

JA

@ut (ou are right about the infiltration'''

%&

@ut the forces oppose to (ou, the( will think, oka(, this is a foreign actor, let=s sen our agent in,

become a member, iscover all their secrets'

JA

ight, an we are aware of that problem an we investigate people, an so on' @ut what that means

is that it has tremenousl( slowe own our growth' @ecause (ou can=t 5ust put an a out an sa(

we want (ou to have these skills an come into the office, it is absolutel( impossible' &o growth isconstraine in that wa(' @ut there is another wa( of leaing, an that is leaing through values

instea of comman an control' An when (ou lea through values (ou on=t nee to trust people,

an values an the number of people who can aopt the value, there is no limit on the spee of

aoption' -t all happens ver( uickl(' -t=s not, suppl(, in terms of emplo(er suppl( limite, rather it=s

eman limite, as soon as people eman a value the( aopt it'

%&

- see that, the wa( - e>press that, is that the power of an iea is unerappreciate' hat (ou can get

the iea inserte correctl( then millions of people''' *( comment woul be that the eeper ieas

that (ou are talking about the( are either not unerstoo or the( are being fought b(

misinformation' 7ou know as (ou sai it=s a clever use of wors, turne against (ou, what have (ou'&o (ou have - think a challenge to get the eeper arguments that (ou have mae to us, hear over all

these other forces'























JA

&a(ing it''' well, if (ou sa( lies for long enough people start to believe it as well, but so this, the

Afghan release was a terrible thing' his has now sprea so fast that we are basicall( given up

tr(ing to knock it own' he energ( is better off spent oing something else' @ut we o see that we

are eucating a whole range of people about us an about our values an about things that we

believe in' An now what is happening is that these people are fining each other across the worl

an across states' An we are creating our own computational network of human beings that canthink in the same wa(, that on a point to point basis can trust each other' We starte out last (ear in a

position where we ha this big confrontation with the &tate +epartment, an the /entagon at the

same time' One of our few claims to success is that we=ve manage to get the /entagon an the

&tate +epartment to cooperate'

:laughter;

JA

Where the( internall( were highl( organiBe, the( have their contact sheets, the( have an internal

mail s(stem, an the( have their comman an control structure where the( can task people an

recruit resources an pour them into things, an the( have people available to spen on us' *a(bethere is ten thousan' &o, that=s, in that particular case, the people who are pushing against us' On

the other han, on our sie, we have millions of people aroun the worl who support us an

support our values, who are on the other han traitionall( completel( atomiBe' here is no

comman an control structure, the( are not able to effectivel( coorinate with each other, an so

on' &o that=s the starting conition, but of course, an organiBation starts to form with these people as

the( fin each other locall(' An as the( iscover each other the( become optimiBe, that network

of noes starts linking up an becoming more an more efficient at comprehening its environment,

planning for action an then acting' &o in some wa(s''' we have plans to potentiate that' he( are

probabl( out b( then' &o we are going to take these graphs of several million supporters, an, o

(ou know what simulate annealing is<

%&

4o

J$

4o'

JA

&o when (ou have an allo(, or rather when (ou are tr(ing to have an allo(, (ou have two ifferent

metals, an the iea is that (ou put these metals together, (ou put these metals together an (ou mi>

them together, an the( settle' he molecules of the two ifferent respective metals settle into an

arrangement with each other where the( are in the tightest attraction to each other' &o the lowestenerg( state' An to get them into this state can be uite har, because one molecule might be

buie up with another to its left, but the most, the strongest arrangement, might be if it 5oins the

one to its right, but it=s alrea( couple with the one to its left, so it has to sort of, it nees a kick to

get out of the position an into this new position''' an so this is calle annealing' An (ou=ll see

that when people are making these allo(s the( will knock the metals together an then let them cool

an then heat them up a bit, an then cool a bit, heat them up a bit, an cool, an not so much each

time' An the( might even o things like smack them an hit them, so the( might actuall(

ph(sicall( smash them' &o we have this s(stem we=re eveloping where we will put all these people

into a network which we will anneal, using a simulate annealing metho' &o that there is the

tightest possible human arrangement between these million people'

%&

Aroun the set of principles'















JA

Aroun a set of principles' hat=s the unifier'

%&

- see'

JAAn then we have an efficient computational''' in terms of human computation''' an efficient

computational network which can observe, plan an act'

%&

Another criticism, - think, with respect to WikiLeaks, (ou were careful, accoring to the reports, to

work to react sensitive information, as - unerstan that there was an eiting process, someone ha

to buil a specialiBe search engine because the ocuments were so complicate, there was a fairl(

length( review perio with the mainstream meia, (ou know, etc, etc, that=s all fairl( well

ocumente''' now imagine another person, not (ou, who oes not have the same values but has the

same technolog(, because the technolog( is obviousl( copiable, what happens when there is more

of them than there are of (ou< Or one of them an one of (ou<

JA

Well, sources''' so who hols WikiLeaks accountable< We have our values' )ow o people see

whether we are sticking to our values, or whether we betra( our values< )ow o people'' ma(be

the( on=t like our values''' *a(be the( o' )ow can the human economic ecos(stem iscipline us

or encourage us in particular irections< &ources speak with their feet' -f sources believe that we are

going to protect them, an that we are going to have higher impact for the material, the( will simpl(

give us material instea of giving it to someone else' &o that is one wa( in which we are iscipline

b( the market of sources'

%&&o it is a selection bias, basicall('

JA

7eah, so the uestion is well, coul sources pick another group that were going to publish without

an( harm minimiBation proceure at all< Well the answer is (es, but one has to unerstan the

primar( reason we engage in harm minimiBation proceures' -t=s not primaril( because the

material we release will have a reasonable risk of proucing harm as a result of isclosure' hat=s

ver( rare' ather, there is a probable risk that if we on=t engage in that sort of behaviour, our

opponents will opportunisticall( attempt to istract from the revelations that we have publishe,

ver( important matters, b( instea speaking about is there a potential for harm, an therefore, is this

release h(pocritical, given that we want to promote 5ustice an is the organisation h(pocritical''' anso a lot of the proceures that we engage in are not merel( to tr( to minimiBe risk to people who

might be name in the material, rather it is to minimiBe risk that opportunists will reuce the impact

of the material when it is release' &o part of the impact ma>imiBation that we are oing is to

prevent this t(pe of attack on what we publish' &o from that point of view, intelligence sources will

unerstan that we o that in orer to ma>imise impact' 4ow that sai, we o not permanentl(

react an(thing' We onl( o ela(e reactions' &o we ela( until the securit( situation has

change an we can release this, an - think that is an important ifference to what'''

%&

&o is it fair to sa( that, eventuall( the things that (ou reacte will be all'''

JA

7es





















%&

Will all be mae available

JA

All be mae available

L&hat=s a ifferent uestion actuall( from what (ou were asking, which was, what if the same process

an technolog( fell into'''

JA

7es, so -=m getting to that, so it isturbs me greatl( it is a an we have all sorts of other pro5ects

about s(nicating our submission s(stem to thir parties an so on' -t isturbs me that we are

reacting at all' -t is a ver( ver( angerous slipper( slope' An -=ve alrea( sai that we go through

this not merel( to minimiBe harm but for political consierations, to stop people istracting from the

important part of the material b( instea h(ping up concerns about risks'

J$-t=s a pragmatic ecision' A strategic ecision'

JA

-t=s a pragmatic, tactical ecision to keep the ma>imum impact there, instea of having to be

istracte''' @ut that is us alrea( engaging in a rather angerous compromise' 4ow it is not nearl(

to the same egree as the newspapers, because we have one this collaboration with them, an we

can see that some of them are 5ust appalling' - mean we release these results' An anal(sis of their

reactions versus what actuall( neee to be reacte, an it is e>tremel( interesting'

%&

&o there was a ifference of view on what neee to be reacte<

JA

Oh the( ha''' he #uarian reacte two thirs of a cable about @ulgarian crime, remove all the

names of the people who ha infiltrate the mafioso who ha infiltrate the @ulgarian

government' emove a escription of the "aBakstan elite, which sai that the "aBakstan elite in

general were corrupt, not even a particular name, 5ust in generalC emove a escription that a an

energ( compan( out of -tal( operating in "aBakhstan was corrupt, so the( have reacte for naming

of iniviual names of people who might be unfairl( put at risk, 5ust like we othat is what we

reuire of them' he( have reacte the names of mafioso, iniviual mafioso because the( are

worrie that the( might get sue for libel in Lonon b( this mafioso' he( have reacte the

names''' the( have reacte the escription of a class of "aBakhstan elite, a class has been corrupt,an the( have reacte escriptions of iniviual companies being corrupt because the( on=t want

to e>pose themselves to an( risk at all' An that=s true of the -rish -nepenent, even though ver(

goo 5ournalists, totall( onsie legall(, the( o this' -ncreible selfcensorship across the boar an

the( on=t amit oing it or reveal the fact that the( are oing it' &o we on=t want to go own that

path' -=m sure all these groups starte out as 5ust no we will 5ust o these little reactions an then

economics comes into pla( an then wh( take the risk an so on' An so (ou en up with a s(stem

of selfcensorship an it is embarrassing to o it an so wh( tell the public that (ou are oing it, but

(ou are not telling the public (ou are oing it so it gets easier an easier to o ever( time' -f we look

at email' Who censors email< 4o one censors emailC Look at a telephone call to (our granmother,

is there a censor sitting there on the line etermining whether (ou are about to sa( something ba to

(our granmother an cutting it out< Of course not' he postal s(stem' Are other people opening

envelopes to see whether (ou are sening something ba< 4o' 7outube, apriori, is an(one sitting

there reviewing ever( vieo before it is poste<



















%&

Let me give (ou the technical answer, 5ust so (ou know it' We can=t review ever( submission, so

basicall( the crow marks it if it is a problem'

JA

7eah, post publication'

%&

/ost publication'

JA

&o once it is out, people can take copies an it coul be spreaing ever(where'

%&

An what happens is the takeown of''' we get into trouble because various pla(ers want us to o

prepublication review' @ut with GF hours of (outube vieo coming in ever( minute, we can=t

mechanicall( o it' &o there is a'' so if someone posts something wrong or evil or violating a law,

whatever, there is a gap, hopefull( short, between the time that it is publishe, an marke forfurther review against our policies' An the policies are well specifie in a ocument'

JA

7eah'

L&

-t=s a prett( high bar though, to take stuff own' -t=s not 5ust wrong as in factuall( wrong'

%&

@ut uner the wa( that these things work, commercial websites have a, (ou know, we can ecie

what we want to allow that we on=t, we have a set of criteria, (ou can see them, (ou can rea them'We=ve got some kins of vieos an not other kins of vieos' An (ou can=t violate cop(right an

all that kin of stuff'

JA

Well, - rather like what happene with $ollateral *urer' $ollateral *urer instantl( got flagge up

b( our opponents as rate over 1F, so nobo( coul see it on 7outube without logging in' @ut with

an embe the( coul see it 5ust fine' An so m( interpretation of this is that when there is an embe

someone else=s bran is on the amn thing' An when it is not an embe, (our bran is on itC

:laughter;

%&Without knowing the specifics all - can tell (ou is the s(stem is responsive to the post publication

feeback' We=ve ha a couple of cases in (outube where there have been ratings scams where the(

publish a ocument an people will ecie the( want to emote him an so the( will give him a lot

of negatives because he is being attacke an if he becomes unfairl( lower rank than he shoul be,

so these s(stems are manipulable b( pressure groups, an - woul think that woul be a constant in

this case'

J$

&ometimes b( regimes' - mean there are some autocratic regimes that will flag content poste b(

activists as inappropriate'

JA

We=ve ha stuff, we have poste, or b( antiscientologists, - think there were I000 scientolog(



























vieos were remove from (outube when some law(er claime that the( were all, swore that the(

were all his cop(right''' because we o purel( political reall( political - on=t mean part( political,

- mean political sphere an how power is elegate because we eal with almost purel( political

material there is such scrutin( on us that if we, if we, at least at this moment if we were to go to

publish first pull later the( woul go, oh, well it=s too lateC 7ou=ve put it out there, now there is a

thousan copiesC

%&

7ou have a ifferent moel, right' 7ou reuire human eitors'

JA

Well, it is a problem, though, it is a severe problem, because it means that in terms of scalabilit(

things are ver( har for us' hat=s wh( we have this new s(nication s(stem where we are

s(nicating the eiting to various nonprofits an so on'''

%&

@ut (ou are finall( outsourcing the human 5ugment, because it=s not possible toa( to write

computer algorithms to o this for (ou'JA

- think that this human 5ugment actuall( is more''' (es there is some cost to publishing without

vetting, but actuall( the problems of vetting before publication are so severe that the( are a much,

much greater problem' An if (ou have to choose between these two, (ou woul choose publication

without vetting'

%&

hat=s also interesting to us' hat sa(s (ou woul funamentall( prefer''' (ou are so concerne

about this human 5ugment an the possibilit( of bias''' :inauible; then (ou e>pose (ourself to'''

:perio of win interference;

JA

We= ask the source to o it' We= put the weight if (ou like on the people sening us the material?

(ou e>ercise (our 5ugement about what (ou sen us, but ever(thing (ou sen us we will publish'''

otherwise, we will be compromise an other people will also tr( an''' once the( unerstan that

we have a lever to etermine what is publishe an not publishe, people will tr( an get that lever

b( levering us'

%&

- want to make sure we=ve got Jare, other uestions, Lisa<

J$

Well, actuall( - have a follow up uestion on that, - mean, again, we=re looking futuristicall(, in

each aspect of the book, an what - woner is - mean (ou have a certain volume of content that (ou

are getting right now but at a certain point, at one point witter onl( ha so much content, an as

well at a certain point it oes become so overwhelming that, to (our point, there is no if (ou

publish ever(thing that gets sent at what point is there such a mi>ture, is there so much content that

it=s 5ust manipulate that it essentiall( rowns out the legitimate'''

JA

he manipulate content will never be the issue' Although there is something to be sai for having a

perfect recor, which we o at the moment' @ut manipulate content will alwa(s be an insignificantuantit( of material' An the reason is it that it takes economic work to manipulate content, to o it

well (ou nee someone who is even more intelligent than the person who create the original





















ocument, even more informe' An if the whole ocument is going public this is not like a news

stor( where (ou give the 5ournalist manipulate content' 7ou have to fool all the opponents an

ever(one else in the worl with the material, so it is a lot harer' An at the same time ever(

organiBation generates a mountain of paperwork, an internal recors 5ust b( virtue of its activities,

so all of those recors are prouce for free' he legitimate content will alwa(s outweigh the

manipulate content'

%&

hat assumes people :inauible;'''

JA

A small amount of manipulate content can evalue a large amount of unmanipulate content'

%&

$an - isagree with (ou on one point' - funamentall( believe that isinformation becomes so eas(

to generate because of, because comple>it( overwhelms knowlege, that it is in the people=s

interest, if (ou will over the ne>t ecae, to buil isinformation generating s(stems, this is true for

corporations, for marketing, for governments an so on' An it makes the 5ob for a legitimate 5ournalist that much harer, right' @ecause it 5ust''' an (our answer earlier was that this is

funamentall( a trust problem' Which - think is roughl( correct' - woul argue that it is

funamentall( a ranking problem' anking is base on trust an other algorithms' -t=s the same

conclusion' @ut - think it=s not in m( view correct to sa( that there will alwa(s be more sort of

tacticall( correct information than a small amount of manipulative information' -t is perfectl(

reasonable that the actors will see that computer A- s(stems can generate a lot of stuff' 7ou=re well

aware of the ocument pro5ects to write papers b( computers'''

JA

7eah, -=ve seen those' -=ve seen those' %ver(one alwa(s thought that we woul get flooe with

those an it never happene'%&

@ut o (ou think :inauible;'''

JA

We have ha, literall(, if (ou inclue, if (ou e>clue the nutters, going on about how over a garen

part(, one night, twelve (ears ago, speaking to his e> wife with a pot plant in between them, she

tol him that he was the antichrist, an he unerstoo it was true'

:laughter;

JA-f (ou e>clue those cases, hah, which we get a bit of, then the genuine attempte fraus, there have

been about 20' -t=s 5ust, it=s e>traorinar(, it=s almost nothing'

%&

4o, well, let=s argue, (ou coul make the argument that that=s a statement about altruism an goo,

an that the steps reuire to actuall( manipulate are har enough that (ou have to be prett( bal(

intene''' the threshol for oing that is prett( high, in other wors'''

JA

&o what is the closest< -t=s the pump an ump scams in stocks, for instance' hat=s the one that we

see fairl( freuentl(, an where the( push things, the(=ve one it as #-s an the( even have thingsto avail of O$ recognition on emails'''

%&























-n #oogle=s case we see lots an lots of linkfarms which are attempting to manipulate our rankings'

An we etect them'

JA

What we are seeing now, we=re seeing, )@#ar( this um, intelligence contractor, hitech intelligence

contractor was hire b(, was aske b( @ank of America to submit a tener an we got hol of their

cop( of the tener, we on=t know who ene up taking the tener, to take us own' An the uotewas two million a month' An the( woul sprea isinformation, an the( woul hack this an the(

woul target our 5ournalists, an the( ha network maps of people who supporte us an the(

woul leverage their careers an self interests versus their ieolog( etcetera' &o that=s there, but

isinformation has alwa(s been there' -=m not sure wh( it shoul increase relative to the information

increase we are seeing ever(where else'

%&

his b( the wa( is an actual''' a funamental argument against something (ou an - were talking

about earlier' @ut we o nee to resolve this' +oes the rate of isinformation'''

J$

Arm wrestling ma(be<

L&

+on=t min that :inauible; right<

J$

- think there=s more''' his is actuall( one of the most interesting''' the whole conversation is

fascinating, but this last piece is reall( fascinating because it pla(s into how %ric an - an &cott are

thinking about, this is how we are thinking about these chapters, it=s like, imagine 10 (ears from

now, or imagine 1I (ears so, for the purposes of argument, let=s imagine, 10 (ears from now it=s

ver( eas( not 5ust for a large group of people sort of create fake ocuments, prouce them in mass,an istribute them in mass let=s assume a single iniviual has that capacit( through the technolog(

platforms'''

JA

7ou won=t have Julian Assange sa(ing it is true' &o '''

J$

&o assume that the('''

JA

Or whoever'''

%&

)e=s making a more funamental argument' )e=s sa(ing that humankin oes not organiBe itself that

wa(' here=s enough barriers that the moral choice if (ou will of me acting to o all of that tens to

sort of tens to limit the amount of it, because otherwise there woul have been all of that'

J$

&o let=s assume a government which woul have the resources, the motivation to potentiall('''

JA

he( o all of that now' &o strategic communications propagana arm of the /engaton costs

something like si> billion ollars a (ear'

&*



























@ut has an(one one it through (ou< -n other wors, government versus government using

WikiLeaks'''

JA

We on=t care if it is true'

&*

''' as a launr('

JA

-f it is true information we on=t care where it comes from' Let people fight with the truth, an when

the boies are cleare there will be bullets of truth ever(where, that=s fine'

&*

@ut - mean that oes take (our eitorial capacit( 5ust back to verification'''

J$

ight because it=s ifferent than 5ust sa(ing we=ll publish ever(thing'''

&*

it=s a ifferent slipper( slope but it=s still a slipper( slope'

JA

4o, - think it=s not at all - think it is the whole intent? Let people fight with the truth' :inauible6

win;

%&

@ut the( have to have, the argument is that the( have to, there has to be a choice algorithm, (ou

have to have some wa( of knowing that (ou are ealing with an original source'''

J$

4o - unerstan that, but that is wh( the ecolog( is'''

:chatter;

L&

An the source nees to have''' an the source can choose the picture'

J$

hat=s wh( the ecolog( is biase against an( societ( where (ou cannot verif(' hen those people are

left on their own' WikiLeaks can=t help them' WikiLeaks 5ust sa(s when (ou get a goo verifications(stem, then we are goo' Otherwise, it=s goo luck, whatever'

JA

Well

L&

he( are verif(ing ocuments, the( are not verif(ing facts'

JA

@ut but (ou have'''

J$ 4o the( are verif(ing sources'

































JA

4o no, we on=t verif( sources, we verif('''

%&

:inauible; evolution of technolog( generates more noise :inauible;

:chatter;JA

''' that ocuments are official ocuments'

L&

ight, the( are official ocuments'

J$

he( are going to be face with more noise :inauible; the uestion as to whether human beings

prefer truth over fiction but whether or not the( can fin the truth'

L&

@ut it=s also not verif(ing facts'

%&

@ut that=s the core uestion'

JA

-t=s not about verif(ing facts'

&*

Well that=s that=s

L&

7eah'

J$

hat=s another argument'

:chatter;

JA

We have publishe'''

&*

-t=s about verif(ing ocuments not about verif(ing truth'''

JA

We have publishe all the fake ocuments that we have receive that were interesting we

publishe sa(ing that the( were fake' J$< Like Wikiorgeries<

JA

@ut there=s not that man( to bother with' @ecause actuall(, the( are not fake? on a meta level the(

are true forgeries'

%&he( are ver( interesting in an of themselves, right<

JA





































.er( interesting in an of themselves' One was an attempt to influence the "en(an election b(

sa(ing that the opposition has signe a secret agreement with the -slamic minorit( to introuce

&haria law across "en(a' -t souns riiculous, but actuall( it was carefull( constructe'

J$

&o how o (ou know if the( are forgeries<

JA

Well that one was har, that was a carefull( constructe ocument' We checke signatures an we

foun the real one, an etc' hat was har work' !suall( it is not har work'

J$

@ut it reuires human capital to o, right<

JA

7eah, usuall( someone makes an elementar( mistake an there is also incentives for giving us''' -t

is prett( isincentiviBing to sen us a forger(, because we are perceive as being uite goo at

etecting them, an we make the whole ocument public' &o wh( wouln=t (ou 5ust give it to anewspaper because the( on=t make the ocument public' An (ou are ealing with people who

on=t have e>pertise in that omain, so it=s a lot easier to overcome them' his bigger issue (ou are

talking about''' let=s sa( (ou on=t have authenticators like us' Authentication is har' We can=t

authenticate the amount of material we are getting in' &o we have thought about wa(s to eal with

this, of having a great big mesh of people an information flowing through an ifferent people

aing their authenticators to it as it flows through to istribute an elegate that' An that might

pan out' @ut what if ever(one was simpl( 5ust publishing' %ver(one was 5ust publishing

anon(mousl(' An (ou ha no authenticators' What woul happen< Well, to begin with (ou woul

5ust have a flat structure' ight, a completel( flat structure, information there, let=s sa( is aresse

b( a hash or something' &o structure at all, there=s this ocument an there is a ocument an so on'

An so then (ou will have people who will want to influence making robots that put a whole loa of garbage ever(where' @ut it is not tie into an( structure' &o how oes an(one get to an(thing< +o

the( hear it from their friens an then go an look at it< +o the( link it into their webpages<

%&

-t creates an influence graph of some kin''

JA

7eah, so there is some kin of influence graph that (ou use to get the information' &o (ou can floo

the internet with information, that oesn=t mean (ou=re going to floo the influence graph with

information' hat is something that=s ifferent'

%&

@ut that=s the moern stor( of ranking, right< 7ou know, the web was full of spam, but spam gets

ranke low because of influence an the link structure an so on' - think we shoul see if we can

finish up' he sun is coming on out'

JA

Ok'

L&

)ow o (ou know if (ou=ve won<

JA

-f -=ve won<























J$

Lisa aske the best uestion of the a('

%&

)ow o (ou know if (ou=ve won<

JAWell it=s not possible to win this kin of thing' his is a continuous striving that people have one

for a long time' Of course, there is man( iniviual battles that we win, but it is the nature of human

beings that human beings lie an cheat an eceive an organiBe groups of people who o not lie

an cheat an eceive fin each other an get together''' an because the( have that temperament,

are more efficient' @ecause the( are not l(ing an cheating an eceiving each other' An that is an

ol, a ver( ol struggle between opportunists an collaborators' An so - on=t see that going awa('

- think we can make some significant avances an it is perhaps, it is the making of these avances

an being involve in that struggle that is goo for people' &o the process is in part the en game'

-t=s not 5ust to get somewhere in the en, rather this process of people feeling that it is worthwhile to

be involve in that sort of struggle, is in fact worthwhile for people'

&*

hat was''' satisf(ingl( spiritual'

:laughter;

&*

:Laughing; 7ou=ve obviousl( thought about this a lot'

JA

)a ha ha' :inauible; a *aoist woul sa(, continual revolutionC

J$

As we are walking -= like to ask one last uestion that - was wonering along the wa(''' &cott

talke about the subculture that=s evelope aroun all this which is a real interesting iea for us to

e>plore in the book because it raises this uestion of, oes the subculture create the eman that

leas to the creation of the technolog( or oes the technolog( in fact create the subculture' -t=s sort

of a interesting cause an effect'

JA

Well (ou know (ou can argue this on both sies' @ut - think the technolog( permits the subculture'

Once (ou have a whole bunch of (oung people who can communicate their ieas an values freel(

then culture arises naturall(' An that culture comes out of, (es, it comes out of e>periences an

harmoniBing with other cultures, an (es, it is alrea( in the recor, but it also comes out of the

temperament of (oung people' he esire to fin allies an friens an share in a process, an to

remove power from ol people'

L&

:laughs;

J$

-t=s remarkable how uncreative ol people are'

%&

&peaking as an oler person, - agree' - think part of (our intellectual argument is that (ou start off

relativel(''' the moel (ou are using, the temperament moel, (ou start off with sort of human

values, an then the( get coopte if (ou will, m( wors not (ours, with the status moel that (ou

























are sort of force into the structure, an that the incentive s(stem an the constraints put (ou into

this bo> as (ou get oler, an that=s sort of'''

JA

ight, e>actl(' An with ifferent s(stems that potentiate ifferent wa(s of transmitting wealth or

communicating values or making some t(pes of group cognition more efficient than others'''

%&

ight, right'

An (our argument that if (ou get enough of these sort of new, this group that (ou ientif(,

together, it in fact is a summar( change in these comple> s(stems'''

JA

ight' -t will be interesting to see whether we have a bit of a''' some sort of state change as well' A

revolution is a big state change, like ever(thing was in one state an then it collapses into another

state' An those transitions happen ver( uickl(' -t will be interesting to see whether we will have a

broaer, general, globaliBe cultural change that has this fast transition' -t=s possible'%&

7eah' One thing - have learne is that things happen fast because of globaliBation' $ause ever(thing

is interconnecte' -t in=t use to be true'

JA

&o information, mone(, an wealth' ight' he big issue with globaliBation is that (ou can be an

arsehole an move (our mone( elsewhere' ast %s, fast wealth movements, fast signing of

contracts, which are a t(pe of wealth movementthese encourage opportunism' @ecause if political

sanction''' mone( can move faster than political sanction, then (ou 5ust keep moving the mone(

through the s(stem' An growing it as it moves through the s(stem' An have it become more anmore powerful, an b( the time the moral outrage comes to stop it, it is too late, it=s gone' &o what=s

happening now on the internet is that political sanction b( political - mean - use political the wa(

Australians use it, b( the wa(, which is that it=s not about part( politics, it=s about'''

&*

Oh is that Australian<

%&

he bo( politic'

JA

7eah, the bo( politic' /olitical sanction is now able to move a lot faster than it i before' /ossibl(

as fast as mone(' 4ot in an( iniviual transfer, but in the comple> structuring arrangements (ou

nee to make transfers, these can take a while'

%&

hat=s mmm'''

:chatter;

&*

$an (ou think of another uestion, %ric<

J$

Julian, (ou=ve been so generous with (our time' eall('

























L&

+o (ou have a bracelet<

JA

- o, on m( leg' -t=s not a bracelet, it=s a manacle'

L&A manacle'

&*

hese conversations o ten to go on'

%&

An 5ust out of curiosit(, so, as (ou get rea( for the ne>t court hearing, (ou have to go through'''

the legal team comes over an visits for the a(<

JA

Well (ou can=t come over ever( a( out here from Lonon' %ight hours travelling per a(' Actuall(- 5ust fire m( ol, part of m( ol legal team'

%&

7eah, - saw that, so o (ou en up on the phone a lot<

JA

Well, what ene up happening was that the( were charging, after promising not to, seven hunre

an thirt( pouns an hour 5ust to sit on that train coming out from Lonon'

%&

- see'JA

- am rather unhapp( about it'

%&

@ut at the en of the a( o (ou en up having visitors ever( a( basicall(< Or is this relativel('''

JA

%ver(''' well, m( staff or so on<

%&

7eah'

JA

*ore interesting visitors ever( week or so'

%&

Well - hope we have been''' At least a istractionC :Laughter;

JA

We wouln=t min a leak from #oogle, which woul be, - think probabl( all the /A-O Act

reuests'

&*

Which woul be :whispers?; illegal '





































:stunne chuckles;

JA

Well, epens on the 5urisiction, a a a a'

&*

We are a !&'''JA

here=s higher laws' here=s higher laws' irst Amenment an (ou know'

%&

-=ve actuall( spent uite a bit of time on this uestion' @ecause - am in great trouble because - have

given a series of criticisms about /A-O 1 an /A-O 2' @ecause - think the(=re''' because

the(=re non transparent' 7ou know, because the 5uge=s orers are hien an so on' An the

answer''' the answer is that the laws are uite clear about #oogle an the !&' We couln=t o it' -t

woul be illegal'

JA

&o we=re fighting this case now, with witter, we=ve one three court hearings now, tr(ing to get the

names of the other companies that fulfille the subpoenas for the gran 5ur( in the !&' witter

resiste an so that=s how some of us became aware' he( argue that we shoul be tol that there

was a subpoena' - wasn=t tol, but'''

&*

An this concerning (ou, concerning WikiLeaks'

JA

7eah, me personall(, but three other people too' Well we know there is at least four other people'

%&

- can certainl( pass on (our reuest to our general counsel'

JA

ell them to argue that we shoul be tol'

%&

&o (our specific reuest is that #oogle argue legall('''

JA

7es

%&

'''that WikiLeaks as an organiBation shoul be informe'''

JA

Or an( of the iniviuals'

%&

'''or an( of the iniviuals, if the( are name in a -&A'

JA

7eah'

%&



































Oka(' -=ll pass that''' along'

JA

#reat'

%&

An we=ll see what comes backCJA

ell them to bring back all the others ones as well'

:laughter;

%&

-=m going to the rest room' Wh( on=t we all figure out what we are going to o ne>t in a minute,

an we=ll let Julian get back to actuall( running the empire' he other thing is, in terms of running

WikiLeaks, - keep asking, no -=m 5ust curious, running WikiLeaks, are (ou able< - mean (ou have a

staff' 7ou have to talk to them'

JA

7eah'

%&

$all them< - mean - assume (ou can o email an all that, no<

JA

- on=t use email'

%&

Wh( not, because it=s'''<JA

oo angerous' An encr(pte email is possibl( even worse, because it is such a flag for en point

attacks' -t=s like, attack that en point attack that en point that=s an encr(pte :inauible; &o but

we o have encr(pting phones, unfortunatel( the( on=t work in all countries, but the &*&s work in

all countries'

%&

When (ou speak with a staff member, woul it t(picall( be on the phone or in person<

JA

(picall( in person'

%&

(picall( in person'

JA

-=ve kin of gotten like :inauible; now'

J$

)ow big is the staff, Julian<

JA-t=s about 20'

































%&

@ut roughl(, then, if - were to escribe it, people come an visit, (ou=re using technolog( carefull(

to manage things an (ou=re well aware of people watching (ou, an so forth, given''

JA

7es'

%&

An that=s been true for a while, reaing about'''

JA

hat=s been true for at least a (ear an a''' well, there=s been various times, we''' one of our people

was ambushe b( @ritish intelligence in Lu>embourg car park in 200F, earl( 200F, that was the first

concrete'''

%&

What i the( o<

JA

he( followe him there to a supermarket, an when he came out of the supermarket the( were

waiting b( the car' An sai''' a man in his G0s' 4ice watch' $onfient' all' A James @on' .er(

stereot(pe' #oo character' #oo shoes' An starte to ask uestions about WikiLeaks an me,

an tol him it woul be in his interest to come an have a cup of coffee, an have a chat about

things, but it was a clear threat, it was a supermarket car park, he coul have mae that approach

somewhere else, it was mae in a carpark, in a supermarket'

L&

+i he ientif( himself as @ritish intelligence<

JA

4o'

%&

)m'

JA

he accent' here is no one else like that who woul be intereste' An he was tol b( our gu( that

our gu( wasn=t intereste in men' &ee (ou laterC :laughter; &orr( bu(C :laughter;

L&

)ow o we get the beginning part of what (ou have on tape to transcribe, how woul (ou like us

to'''

JA

Well we shoul'''

L&

)ow shoul we, because he was kin of'''

JA

*a(be we shoul give it to (ou on''' - might give it to (ou now, it might be safest'''L&

7ou on=t min< An then we=ll transcribe it an sen it all back to (ou<

































JA

7eah'

L&

$oul we 5ust %+%M it<

JA7eah'

L&

-s that''' safe<

:en of tape;









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