christian-muslim debate on bible authenticity

7/29/2019 Christian-Muslim Debate On Bible Authenticity

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04-15-10, 14:26#1

AteoForum Deacon

Filipino Freethinkers

Join Date: Apr 2008Location: New YorkPosts: 7,471

One-on-One Debate Challenge "L" vs. WJ: On "Bible Authenticity"

DEBATE THREAD

Proposition

Resolved: That the Muslim assertion that the Bible is corrupted isa mere fiction

Affirmative: "L"

Negative: WhiteJewel

Moderator: Ateo

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Last edited by Ateo; 04-15-10 at14:58.

04-15-10, 14:34#2
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AteoForum Deacon


Join Date: Apr 2008Location: New York

Posts: 7,471

FORMAT

Debate Format

1. Affirmative Constructive -- 2,000 words: "L"2. Cross-Examination of Affirmative by Negative - Set-1: 5 questions max-- 500 words3. Affirmative replies4. Cross-Examination of Affirmative by Negative - Set-2: 5 questions max- 500 words5. Affirmative replies6. Negative Constructive -- 2,000 words: WhiteJewel7. Cross-Examination of Negative by Affirmative - Set-1: 5 questions max- 500 words8. Negative replies

9. Cross-Examination of Negative by Affirmative - Set-2: 5 questions max- 500 words10. Negative replies11. Affirmative Rebuttal: "L"12. Negative Rebuttal: WhiteJewel13. 2nd Affirmative rebuttal: "L"14. 2nd Negative rebuttal: Whitejewel15. Rejoinder/Conclusion: WhiteJewel16. Rejoinder/Conclusion: "L"

Note:a. Each item/post should be a maximum of 1,500 words EXCEPT wherethey are specifically indicated in the format itself. So, the constructivepost has 2,000 words max and the question post has only 500 wordsmax.

__________________



04-15-10, 14:44#3

AteoForum Deacon



RULES

These rules supersedes all previous agreements or understandings in pre-debate threads. Kindly review the rules carefully as these rules willprevail over others that you may have used in the past.

Start date: This debate starts at the moment that this post has beenposted. The affirmative side is given two days to make his first posting.
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This is the exclusive thread to the parties of this debate. The format andthe debate rules are shown. Where the rules are explicit, I will apply therules to specific situations. Where the rules are silent or implicit, I willextrapolate the applicable rules based on my interpretation of fairnessand standard practice.

Behavioral Rules (numbered for easy reference.)

1. Constructive posts must be used by each side to present thearguments.

2. Cross-examination posts must be limited only to the constructive postsof the other side.

3. The debater being cross-examined is expected to answer the questionsdirectly.

4. During the rebuttal posts, no significantly new issues may bepresented.

5. Maximum Word Count limit for each post is 1,500 words EXCEPT whenthe maximum is specified different for specific items in the FORMAT.Questions are part of the word count. Clarifications are part of the wordcount. Clarifications may be requested but no expectation is to be madethat it will be addressed. Citations are part of the word count. These willalso be part of the word count.

6. Time limit is 2 days (48 hours) from the last post by the opponent.(Note: No further editing is allowed after posting. If editing is needed, PMthe mod for permission and a correction post may be inserted ifpermitted, but no change to the original post is still allowed.) Weekend isNOT counted. Debaters are welcome to indicate which are their preferredweekend days.

7. All applicable forum rules on posting behavior will apply in this debate.Please refer to the established rules postedhere:http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/sho...52&postcount=5

8. Debaters should not extend their debate in the peanut gallery. Theyare not allowed to post in the gallery that will further support theirargument, rally their supporters, and criticize the opponent during the

duration of the debate. In other words, there is only one debate -- and itis in the main thread. The debate rules behavior applies in the gallery aswell. I will exercise moderator rights in the gallery. This does not preventthe debaters from posting things in the gallery, such as greetings, etc,that does not violate the earlier stated rule.

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04-15-10, 14:54#4

AteoForum Deacon



JUDGING

Notes

1. This debate will be decided by a panel of judges. The panel memberswill be selected by the moderator based on the moderator's belief of theability of the potential judge to treat the two debaters with fairness andimpartiality.2. The panel will have odd number of members. There will be at least 3and at most 7 members.

3. The members will render judgment based on the indicated criteria. Ajudge is not required to indicate numerical scores, although he/she maydo so. He/she only needs to indicate who won. He/she is expected toexplain briefly his/her judgment. Each judgment is posted at the end ofthe debate thread one after the other. Judges are requested to wait forthe moderator to signal that they may post their judgment.4. A judge may choose to remain anonymous or declare himself. He/shemay only declare himself as he posts his judgment in the debate thread.If anonymous, he/she may PM his judgment to the mod who will post it.

Criteria

a. Logic and Argumentation Techniques - 25%The use of logical constructs to lay down a logical flow of the argument tothe desired conclusion. The absence of serious fallacies.

b. Use of Evidence - 25%The effective use of supportive evidence and facts in the arguments. Therelevance of the data, the quality of the source and proper attribution arekey.

c. Compliance to the Rules - 25%While the judges can rely on the infraction and comments given by the

moderator, they can independently observe the debaters compliance tothe debate format and rules.

d. Debate personality and style - 25%This include the clarity of presentation and readability of the posts. Thedebate posts while instructive should also be nice to read. By"personality" it means that delicate balance between agressiveness that isexpected of debaters of hot topics and of respectfulness that is thehallmark of effective debates.

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04-15-10, 14:55#5

AteoForum Deacon



"L" is given 48 hours to make his first posting.

__________________



04-16-10, 04:22 #6

"L"Banned (Pinatalsik)

Join Date: Feb 2010Posts: 1,820

Good day to everyone. Peace of the Christ to all. Today we will bediscussing a very important issue regarding the authenticity of the Bible.The Bible and the Quran opposes very much in different aspects that theycant be both correct. Its either one of them is right or both of them arewrong. If the Bible is corrupted, then Islam is True. If the Bible isauthentic, then Islam is false.

LOGIC

If I shown you fake money and you havent seen real money before, howcan you tell if Im indeed showing you fake money? The answer, youcant

Muslims believe that the Taurat(OT) and the Injil(NT) were both sent byAllah but were corrupted. So Allah sent his final revelation in the Quran.All of them are Allah's books, This means Allah is in charge of protectingall of it. When I say the Bible is my book, it doesnt literally mean I ownit. It means its the book I follow which was given to mankind by Allah.No one has the right to say they own the holy book.

The biggest question here is Why Allah did not protect his book?Muslims will answer; Allah chose to protect only the Quran does thatmake sense? WHY? What is the difference between the Torah and the Injilwith the Quran? I think they are all words of Allah. If one revelation isimportant the other should be important too. Does that mean Allahsrevelations are not equal? If thats the case Allah must be crazy(Sura2:285 Allah makes no distinction between all revelations)
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By accusing Allahs book to be corrupted is like accusing Allah to be afool, weak and evil. We all know Muslims accuse Paul to be the chiefcorruptor of the Bible. This means Paul, one man, defeated Allahtherefore Allah is weak. The Internet can preserve words better thanAllah. Doesnt Allah have a back-up? Of all the scriptures (not only onebecause it was widely circulated) during that time, Paul was able to

corrupt it. Corrupting the Bible means corrupting everything unless ofcourse theres only one copy of the scriptures. All Revelations by Al lah forthousands of years from 124000 Prophets / 25 Major Prophets (accordingto Islamic teachings) are gone instantly because of one man.

Allah has corrupted the bible by His will or against His will? either of the2 happened. If its by His will that means Allah is evil, or he is Satan, oran accomplice of Satan simply because he allowed it to happen. Lets saythere is a Christian and he believes in the Bible, its not his fault tobelieve in a false book, its Allahs fault because he allowed it to becorrupted. If its against his will that means Allah cant be God becausehes weak. Muslims say its about Free will and they chose to corrupt thebooks. Free will is the choice to do good or evil, to obey or disobey God

through his revelations. If there is no book to follow, then theres nostandard basis and all of them are lost and will be sent to hell in Allahsfault.

WHEN and HOW this corruption occurred? Some say Paul(200 AD), somesay the canon(400 AD), some say Translation et cetera, so anywhere onthe 3 theories up to 600 AD when the Quran was revealed, all peoplewent to hell. why do they have different explanation/no concrete answerregarding how the bible was corrupted? That means it didnt reallyhappen. They are just trying to find holes to falsify Christianity andproclaim Islam

Why Muslims quote from the Bible? they believe its corrupted at thesame time the Quran say Muhammad is prophesied in the Bible(7:157).They are proving truth from what they believe is false. They say they onlyuse the essence, do you see how much Muslims quote the Bible in thisforum? Thats how much essence is left. They dont even know which parthas essence or is corrupted. They dont have a scientific method or anyprocess to determine it. They just pick verses they want. The Bible is notcorrupted when they search for prophecies of Muhammad and other stuff,and when it contradicts them all of the sudden the bible becomescorrupted. They are Hiding to nothing

SCRIPTURE

Bible(KJV):

Isaiah 40:8The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of ourGod shall stand for ever.

Luke 21:33Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall notpass away.

Quran(Yusuf Ali):

21:7Before thee, also, the messengers We sent were but men, to whomWe granted inspiration: If ye realize this not, ask of those who possessthe Message

It says if you dont realize that this revelation(quran) is inspired, askthose who possess the message before this

10:37And this Quran is not such as could be forged by those besidesAllah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clearexplanation of the book, there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/007.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/007.qmt.htmlhttp://bible.cc/isaiah/40-8.htmhttp://bible.cc/isaiah/40-8.htmhttp://bible.cc/luke/21-33.htmhttp://bible.cc/luke/21-33.htmhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/021.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/021.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/010.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/010.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/010.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/021.qmt.htmlhttp://bible.cc/luke/21-33.htmhttp://bible.cc/luke/21-33.htmhttp://bible.cc/isaiah/40-8.htmhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/007.qmt.html


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worlds

Verification (sometimes it says confirmation). It did not say Restoration.All of Allahs books should agree with each other (but in reality theydont, this will be explained later)

4:136O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and thescripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which Hesent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, HisBooks, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far,far astray.

29:46And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with meansbetter (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflictwrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which hascome down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allahand your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."

10:94If thou were in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then

ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth

hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in

doubt.

If you have doubt in the Quran, go to the book that was before it becausethe Quran is a verification/confirmation or a supplement.

If they indeed believe that the Bible is corrupted then Allah is telling youto read a false book.

More:2:136,4:47,5:44,6:91, 6:92,5:68

Hadith

Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38 (Kitab al Hudud, ie. Prescribed

Punishments), Number 4434

Narrated Abdullah Ibn Umar:

A group of Jews came and invited the Apostle of Allah(peace_be_upon_him) to Quff. So he visited them in their school.

They said: AbulQasim, one of our men has committed fornication with awoman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion forthe Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) who sat on it and said: Bring

the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion frombeneath him and placed the Torah on it saying:I believed in thee andin Him Who revealed thee.

He then said: Bring me one who is learned among you. Then a youngman was brought. The transmitter then mentioned the rest of thetradition of stoning similar to the one transmitted by Malik from Nafi' (No.4431)."

In this hadith, Muhammad swore in the Torah saying, I believe in theeand in Him Who revelead thee. Why would a prophet swear onsomething that is corrupted?

You are probably wondering by now why the Quran and all scriptures donot support the corruption while muslims still believe so.

Early Muslims and Many great Muslim teachers DID NOT believethe Bible has been corrupted.

Ali al-Tabari,
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/004.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/004.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/029.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/029.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/010.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/010.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/002.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/002.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/002.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/004.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/004.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/004.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/005.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/005.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/005.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/006.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/006.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/006.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/005.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/005.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/005.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/abudawud/038.sat.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/abudawud/038.sat.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/abudawud/038.sat.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/abudawud/038.sat.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/abudawud/038.sat.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/005.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/006.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/005.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/004.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/002.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/010.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/029.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/004.qmt.html


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Bukhari, ( gathered the earliest tradition of Islam quoted the Quran itselfto support his belief in the text of the Bible Sura 3:72,78)

Al-Mas'udi

Amr al-Ghakhiz,

Abu Ali Husain Bin Sina

Al-Ghazzali (probably the greatest Muslim scholar he lived after Ibn-Khazem but did not accept his teachings).

Ibn-Khaldun (he lived after Ibn-Khazem but did not accept his teachingsbut rather believed the earlier Islamic teachers.)

Sir Sayyid Ahmad Khan, founder of the Aligarh College"In the opinion of us Mohammedans it is not proved thatcorruption (tahrif-i-lafzi)...was practiced."

Fakhruddin Razi, on the authority of Ibn Abbas, a nephew of Muhammed,"The Jews and early Christians were suspected of altering the text of theTaurat and Injil; but in the opinion of eminent doctors and theologians itwas not practicable thus to corrupt the text, because those Scriptureswere generally known and widely circulated, having been handed downfrom generation to generation."

Ibn-Khazem (1604), was the first one to accuse the Bible to be

corrupted. This was to defend Islam from Christianity when he stumbled

upon many contradictions with the Quran and Bible.

"Since the Quran must be true it must be the conflicting Gospel texts thatare false. But Muhammad tells us to respect the Gospel. Therefore, thepresent text must have been falsified by the Christians after the time ofMuhammad."

His accusation was not based on evidence but only his personal faith toprotect the Quran

Source:Christians Answer Muslims, Gerhard Nehls, 1992 Can We Trust the

Bible?, J Wijngaard Quran, A. Yusuf Ali Kitab al-Asnam, Ibn al-

Kalbi, 1952 Sahih al Bukhari, 6th ed. 1986 The Islamic Christian

Controversy, LCA 1996

HARD EVIDENCE

Anyone who believes the Bible is corrupted is ignoring tremendousamount of evidence.

When theDead Sea scrollswere discovered in the caves of KhirbetQumran in 1948. Scholars were amazed to discover manuscripts thatdated 1800 years old showed that the Torah had been reliably passed onto us. They are written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, mostly onparchment, but with some written on papyrus. Those are a collection ofabout 900 documents.

At the time of Christ the Torah was commonly written in both Hebrew andGreek.

Masoretic Text (MT)was used in temples by religious leaders. It is the

authoritative Hebrew text of the Jewish Bible regarded almost universallyas the official version of the Tanakh

Septuagint250BC is the Koine Greek version of the Hebrew Bible,
http://www.answering-islam.org/Bible/jrwhy.htmlhttp://www.answering-islam.org/Bible/jrwhy.htmlhttp://www.answering-islam.org/Bible/jrwhy.htmlhttp://www.answering-islam.org/Bible/jrwhy.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_scrollshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_scrollshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_scrollshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masoretic_Texthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masoretic_Texthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuaginthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuaginthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuaginthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masoretic_Texthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_scrollshttp://www.answering-islam.org/Bible/jrwhy.htmlhttp://www.answering-islam.org/Bible/jrwhy.htmlhttp://www.answering-islam.org/Bible/jrwhy.htmlhttp://www.answering-islam.org/Bible/jrwhy.html


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translated in stages between the 3rd and 2nd Centuries BCE in Alexandria

We also have paraphrased version of the bible which are calledTargums

Biblical Manuscripts

Magdalene Ms(Matthew 26) 50-60 AD

John Rylands(John) 130 AD

Bodmer Papyrus II(John) 150-200 AD

Chester Beatty Papyri(NT) 200 AD

Diatessaron by Tatian(Gospels) 200 AD

Codex Vaticanus(Bible) 325-350 ADCodex Sinaiticus(Bible) 350 ADCodex Alexandrinus(Bible) 400 AD

and more

The earliest manuscript of theGospel of Johnwas dated 1st century

We also have 2,135 Lectionaries, 86,489 quotes from the early churchfathers from the second and third century writings Thus, we could throwthe New Testament manuscripts away and still reconstruct it with thesimple help of these letters. This is contrary to islamic belief that we donthave a back-ups of our scriptures and only their quran can beauthentically reproduced.

example:

Clement (30- 95 A.D.) quotes from various sections of the NewTestament.Ignatius (70-110 A.D.) knew the apostles and quoted directly from 15 ofthe 27 books.Polycarp (70-156 A.D.) was a disciple of John and quoted from the NewTestament.

And more

Josephus a historian(37 c. 100 AD) whose literature bear record on

the credibility of the bible as well

The carvings inHezekiah Tunnel8th century BCE in Jerusalem validateBiblical stories. Using paleography was pinpointed just a few decadesaway

The Apostles brutally died for what they believed that Jesus had beenraised from the dead despite the fact that they had no reason to believethis.

Of all the presented evidence above, if there really was a corruption thatmeans Muhammad(600AD) was also using a corrupted Bible

Thank you

__________________

I still pray to God that he will punish you in hell severely for your mockery. -WhiteJewel"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off theirheads and strike off every fingertip of them" 8:12
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targumhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targumhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targumhttp://biblefacts.org/history/oldtext.htmlhttp://biblefacts.org/history/oldtext.htmlhttp://biblefacts.org/history/oldtext.htmlhttp://biblefacts.org/history/oldtext.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodmer_Papyrihttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodmer_Papyrihttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_Beatty_Papyrihttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_Beatty_Papyrihttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatessaronhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatessaronhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanushttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanushttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticushttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticushttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Alexandrinushttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Alexandrinushttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Johnhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Johnhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Johnhttp://debate.org.uk/topics/history/bib-qur/bibmanu.htmhttp://debate.org.uk/topics/history/bib-qur/bibmanu.htmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephushttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephushttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezekiah_Tunnelhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezekiah_Tunnelhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezekiah_Tunnelhttp://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=856929&postcount=114http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=856929&postcount=114http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=856929&postcount=114http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezekiah_Tunnelhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephushttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephushttp://debate.org.uk/topics/history/bib-qur/bibmanu.htmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Johnhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Alexandrinushttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticushttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanushttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatessaronhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_Beatty_Papyrihttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodmer_Papyrihttp://biblefacts.org/history/oldtext.htmlhttp://biblefacts.org/history/oldtext.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targum


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(the religion of peace?)

04-16-10, 11:26#7

AteoForum Deacon

FilipinoFreethinkers


Item 1

Thank you very much for your Affirmative Constructive (item 1), L. It is anexcellent post.

May I now invite you, WJ, to proceed with your cross examination (item 2)?

__________________



04-17-10, 14:37#8

WhiteJewelAsk Those WhoKnow

For The ThingsWhich You DontKnow

Join Date: Jun 2009

Location:PhilippinesPosts: 5,929

Elementary Questions for an "Ex- Muslim

I begin with the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Assalamu alaikum to my Brother Muslims and Good Day to all non-Muslims.

Peace be unto the Moderator, Ateo, and to my opponent L who claims to be anex-muslim; May the almighty guide us all.

Q1 Mr. L, the topic at hand is whether or not the Muslims assertion that thebible is a mere fiction; you, being an ex-muslim, what is the Quranic basis whyMuslims dont believe and accept that the Torah and the Injeel are not the OldTestament and the New Testament that we have today?

Q2 You appealed to the Quran in supporting your argument that Muslimsshould accept the bible because the Quran says so: the Injeel (Gospel of Jesus)according to the Quran was revealed to Jesus pbuh, my question is this: DidJesus ever read or see or recite the New Testament?
http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=757892&postcount=7http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=757892&postcount=7http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=757892&postcount=7http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/member.php?u=4235http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/member.php?u=4235http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-SUPPORT-THE-RH-BILL/123687403646http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-SUPPORT-THE-RH-BILL/123687403646http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-SUPPORT-THE-RH-BILL/123687403646http://rhbill.org/about/rh-bill-text/http://rhbill.org/about/rh-bill-text/http://rhbill.org/about/rh-bill-text/http://filipinofreethinkers.org/http://filipinofreethinkers.org/http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=758802&postcount=8http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=758802&postcount=8http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=758802&postcount=8http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/member.php?u=5132http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/member.php?u=5132http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/member.php?u=5132http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=758802&postcount=8http://filipinofreethinkers.org/http://rhbill.org/about/rh-bill-text/http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-SUPPORT-THE-RH-BILL/123687403646http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/member.php?u=4235http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=757892&postcount=7


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Q3 - The Quran also told us to believe in the Torah of Moses pbuh because Godhas informed us in the Quran that He revealed the Torah to Moses pbuh . If weread your so-called Torah (OT), we find in the last chapter (34) ofDeuteronomy which talks about the death, the burial, and the after death events

of Prophet Moses. It could not be a prophecy because it is written in the pastform. Could you give us a logical explanation on how could Prophet Moses pbuhpossibly write after his death?

Q4 In the OT we read And God saw their works that they turned from theirevil way; and God repented of the evil that he had said he would do untothem, and he did [it] not.Jonah 3:10Would you please explain how an All-knowing God repent/relent, and you being an ex-muslim, is it acceptable inIslamic theology (At-Tawheed) and Muslims should accept it since you insistedthat Muslims should accept the your Old Testament as the uncorrupted Torah?

Q5 It has been openly admitted by many, if not all, Christian scholars thatsome writings (books) in the bible in which their authors are unknown or theyare not sure who really the authors of those books are. These books includedthe book of Chronicles, Kings, Hebrews, ect. Would you please explain logicallyhow could we trust a writing to be 100% authentic when we dont know whowrote it in the first place?

Imagine that there is a Last Will and Testament being questioned, how can webe sure that this Last Will and Testament is authentically true when we dontknow who wrote it in the first place?

=======================================================================================

Those are my first set cross exam questions. I believe that "L" could answerthem with great ease because they are elementary in Islamic apologetic and heis an ex-muslim.

Thank you very much.

WJ

To the readers:pbuh means peace be upon him a phrase use by realMuslims they mention the name of any Prophet of God as a sign of full respectand love for them.

__________________

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil

and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allahheareth and knoweth all things.Surah 2:256
http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Jonah%203.10http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Jonah%203.10http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Jonah%203.10http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Jonah%203.10


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04-18-10, 00:27#9

AteoForum Deacon



Item 2

Thank you very much for these questions, WJ. They gave us a good ideaof where to focus on this debate.

Now, the ball is in your court, L.

__________________



04-19-10, 15:11

#10



Good day to everyone, its funny because I didn't expect that i will be alsodefending the "negative side" and be talking about me as an "ex-muslim". Don't you think most of the questions here are a violationofrule 2 and number 1 is just an ad hominem or to test me as ex-muslim then later on he will personally use it against me. anyway, I'llexplain the best I can and use this as an advantage to refute it this earlyeven before my opponent makes his presentation

If I could answer these with ease using Islamic Theology, then Muslimsmust have answers for all of it, if they do, they should be Christians

agree "pbuh" are used by real Muslims, my opponent forgot that I am aChristian. please excuse him.

1.They do have a basis but it's weak:

-Biblical errors[later]

-Unknown Authors[later]

-Jesus never saw the NT but the Quran says the Injeel was given to

Jesus(5:46)[later]

-(2:79)Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, andthen say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe tothem for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

A CONTRADICTION TO THE VERSES ABOVE?
http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=758844&postcount=9http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=758844&postcount=9http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=758844&postcount=9http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/member.php?u=4235http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/member.php?u=4235http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-SUPPORT-THE-RH-BILL/123687403646http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-SUPPORT-THE-RH-BILL/123687403646http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-SUPPORT-THE-RH-BILL/123687403646http://rhbill.org/about/rh-bill-text/http://rhbill.org/about/rh-bill-text/http://rhbill.org/about/rh-bill-text/http://filipinofreethinkers.org/http://filipinofreethinkers.org/http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=759926&postcount=10http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=759926&postcount=10http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/member.php?u=5915http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/member.php?u=5915http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/005.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/005.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/002.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/002.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/002.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/005.qmt.htmlhttp://www.thebereans.net/forum2/member.php?u=5915http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=759926&postcount=10http://filipinofreethinkers.org/http://rhbill.org/about/rh-bill-text/http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-SUPPORT-THE-RH-BILL/123687403646http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/member.php?u=4235http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=758844&postcount=9


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a single verse against all the verses above. let me fix the contradiction forthem..

If we go to theTasfir Al-Jalalaynor the scholar's interpretation of the

verse, it says "these are the Jews, the ones that altered the descriptionof the Prophet in theTorah, as well as the stoning verse, and other

details, and rewrote them in a way different from that in which they wererevealed"

Point one TORAH ONLY. Point 2, only few details were altered.Muhammad was just warning the Muslims for Jews who made a pseudo

Torah. But it did not say the original was totally REPLACED. Because itwill contradict the Quran and hadith above Muhammad swearing in theTorah saying "I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee." of all thescriptures that have been circulating even before Muhammad was born, itwould be impossible to replace all of it.

This is also assuming Muhammad is a prophet and everything he say isright. unfortunately he was wrong, just scroll up for the Dead Sea Scrolls

it proves the Torah was the same ever since 200BC

2. Another assuming Muhammad is a prophet and always right. It was amistake for Muhammad to say the Injeel is the Gospel of Jesus other thanthe NT. Muslims can never prove that such book ever existed usingarcheological facts. They are relying on Muhammad's fairy tale. At leastone evidence of its existence would do, unfortunately for them, the NTnever mentioned anything about it. Scroll up for the NT manuscripts thatare from 200AD, its logical to say that it is the same NT Muhammad wasusing in 600AD. it is also evident in the Quran that Christians existed thattime(5:51). No other Book makes up a Christian. it is illogical to say thatthe Injeel existed and was lost in the time of Muhammad. Since Muslimsalso believe that the Quran is the final revelation, it should withstand thetest of time or it should be applicable even to the modern era, this willonly mean that it is not applicable nowadays because Muhammad ispointing Muslims to a lost book.

THERE IS NO VERSE THAT SAY THE INJEEL WAS LOST ORCORRUPTED

The word Injil usually denotes the New Testament. Some Muslims believe the Gospel or the New

Testament may have been corrupted over time. Conversely, Quranic scholars point to references

in the Quran that imply that Allah would not allow his revelation (i.e. the Injil) to become

corrupted. Finally, some also hold the view that the Injil is a lost book, different from the NewTestament which was either written by the apostles or people connected to them rather than

revealed word for word by God to the Prophet Jesus.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Injil

different changing beliefs proves that it is not factual.

John 5:31"If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid."

He was alluding to the Jewish princple of Mosaic Law which sayseverything must be confirmed by 2 of 3 witnesses. Example you areconvicted in court on something you did not do. How can a judge believeyou by just saying you did not do it? A witness is necessary to make your

statement reliable

you forgot that your Quran was not seen by Muhammad because herevealed it verbally and it was written years after his death by UNKNOWNauthors who Muhammad never met as well. Does it mean the Quran iscorrupted?
http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=2&tAyahNo=79&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=2&tAyahNo=79&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=2&tAyahNo=79&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/005.qmt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/005.qmt.htmlhttp://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Injilhttp://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Injilhttp://bible.cc/john/5-31.htmhttp://bible.cc/john/5-31.htmhttp://bible.cc/john/5-31.htmhttp://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Injilhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/005.qmt.htmlhttp://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=2&tAyahNo=79&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0


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3. Oh! the sameDeuteronomy 18:18 where muslim scholars say

Muhammad was foretold?

Moses didn't write the entire book, it WAS a COMPILATION of his

SERMONS. Even the text uses the phrase, "These are the words whichMoses spoke(Deut 1:1), not necessarily WROTE but SPOKE. Like

Muhammad, he revealed the Quran verbally and someone else wrote it.about his death,Joshua wrote it.

Scroll up again for Dead Sea Scrolls from 200BC, it's the same Torahused in the time of Jesus and Muhammad until now. If you open the linkforSeptuagint250BC it contains the whole list of books in OT used

before and it contains Deuteronomy Chronicles, Kings, Hebrews, etc.it even contains deuterocanonicals and it was used by the apostles forevangelizing.

Does the author really matter for you? then search for the authors of the

Quran first before bashing the Bible. I think what matters here is if it'sthe same book used centuries ago.

Since his proof of corruption is Deuteronomy, It is included in the DeadSea Scrolls 200BC and proven to be the same until now, THEREFORE thecorruption for them started from 200BC, even BEFORE Jesus whichMuslims consider a prophet, what's His use as a prophet when He did notdo anything and people had to wait another 5 centuries for Muhammadwho can finally restore everything?

4. I think the topic here is "Biblical Authenticity" or If the Bible we are

using today is the same as the Bible used centuries ago REGARDLESS ofthe content. To the Judges and Audiences, please excuse him forfrequently violatingrule 2. he has no choice that's Muslim's only proof,

and expect the next set to contain same irrelevant questions. We all know"errors" is a weak proof for corruption. Check all my threads about errorsin the Quran, Does it mean it's corrupted? I have2threadsproving Allahis Satan and a Christian Apologetic Website provingAllah is evil. Doesthat mean the Quran is corrupted? does it answer when, how, who andwhat? we need facts not myths

Jonah 3:10And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil

way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would dounto them; and he did it not.

somebody forgot to read the last part.

Evil in Hebrew has two meanings: moral evil, and physical harm andpain(check the other translations). Muslims should not be surprised thatthe term "evil" can mean harm, and not just moral evil. The term is usedin this way in their own writings, in theBukhari Hadith volume 3 # 56

5. Archeology 1868 discoveredMoabite Stoneengraved 830BC inlanguage of moab story which parallels the story in 2 kings chapter 1 and2, 2 kings 3:4-5

Go to Septuagint 250BC again

if you really want to know their authors, here is the full list but this doesnot prove anything:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors_of_the_Bible

Are you sure the unknown authors prove corruption? Again, what matters
http://www.answering-christianity.com/deut18_18_silas_rebuttal.htmhttp://www.answering-christianity.com/deut18_18_silas_rebuttal.htmhttp://www.answering-christianity.com/deut18_18_silas_rebuttal.htmhttp://www.answering-christianity.com/deut18_18_silas_rebuttal.htmhttp://bible.cc/deuteronomy/1-1.htmhttp://bible.cc/deuteronomy/1-1.htmhttp://www.gotquestions.org/Book-of-Deuteronomy.htmlhttp://www.gotquestions.org/Book-of-Deuteronomy.htmlhttp://www.gotquestions.org/Book-of-Deuteronomy.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuaginthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuaginthttp://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showthread.php?t=48488http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showthread.php?t=48488http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showthread.php?t=47964&page=2http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showthread.php?t=47964&page=2http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/god.htmhttp://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/god.htmhttp://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/god.htmhttp://bible.cc/jonah/3-10.htmhttp://bible.cc/jonah/3-10.htmhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/029.sbt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/029.sbt.htmlhttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/029.sbt.htmlhttp://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Easton%27s_Bible_Dictionary_%281897%29/Moabite_Stonehttp://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Easton%27s_Bible_Dictionary_%281897%29/Moabite_Stonehttp://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Easton%27s_Bible_Dictionary_%281897%29/Moabite_Stonehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors_of_the_Biblehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors_of_the_Biblehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors_of_the_Biblehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors_of_the_Biblehttp://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Easton%27s_Bible_Dictionary_%281897%29/Moabite_Stonehttp://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/029.sbt.htmlhttp://bible.cc/jonah/3-10.htmhttp://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/god.htmhttp://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showthread.php?t=47964&page=2http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showthread.php?t=48488http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuaginthttp://www.gotquestions.org/Book-of-Deuteronomy.htmlhttp://bible.cc/deuteronomy/1-1.htmhttp://www.answering-christianity.com/deut18_18_silas_rebuttal.htmhttp://www.answering-christianity.com/deut18_18_silas_rebuttal.htm


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here is If we are using the same Bible used centuries ago regardless thecontent and author. before you bash the bible for authors, try searchingthe people who wrote your Quran first. Everything you said does notsupport the corruption

Biblical corruption is only a myth and they are believing it without basingany facts(just like Ibn-Khazem who said the corruptionwas after Muhammad). All their evidence are weak, easily refuted, andbackfires their own book.

They can't prove when, how, what, who caused the corruption. if they sayits BEFORE Muhammad, the Quran itself testifies to the Bible'sAuthenticity. If they say it's AFTERMuhammad, we shall take them tothe Hard evidence like Dead Sea Scrolls 200BC. no way out for them.

If the Bible is Authentic, then you have no choice but to throw your Quranand search for answers regarding critics on the Bible. If still not satisfiedthen you decide. We don't force everyone to convert unlike Muslims.numbers don't matter to us like every converts should be videotaped andboast about it. the last place and most illogical thing to do is to stay inIslam just because of pride even though it is refuted.

Thanks

__________________

I still pray to God that he will punish you in hell severely for your mockery. -WhiteJewel

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off theirheads and strike off every fingertip of them" 8:12


04-19-10, 17:14#11

WhiteJewelAsk Those WhoKnow

For The Things

Which You DontKnow

Join Date: Jun 2009Location:

PhilippinesPosts: 5,929

Set 2 cross exam by WJ

I begin with the name of Allah, The Most Gracious, The Most

Merciful

Set 2

Q1 - Mr. L, despite of the fact that you admitted the Quranic claim that yourPentateuch is not the Taurat of Moses because you aid that some part of it waswritten by Joshua and others were his sermons written by other people, you stillinsisted that it is the real Torah. Part of the Old Testament is the book ofChronicles which contain irreconcilable problem, at least for me. We read,2chronicles 21:20 Ahaziahs father was 40 years old when he died; immediatelyafter him Ahaziah succeeded his father in2 Chr. 22:2Ahaziah was 42 years old
http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=856929&postcount=114http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=856929&postcount=114http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=760066&postcount=11http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=760066&postcount=11http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/member.php?u=5132http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/member.php?u=5132http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/2%20Chr.%2022.2http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/2%20Chr.%2022.2http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/2%20Chr.%2022.2http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/2%20Chr.%2022.2http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/member.php?u=5132http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=760066&postcount=11http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=856929&postcount=114


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when he rigned after the death of his father

How can a son be older than the father?

Q2 -Matthew 27:44-45Jesus was on the cross at the 6th hour while in John

19:14Jesus was still in the court of Pilate at 6th hour of the same event.Mark15:25supports Matthew saying that It was the third hour when they crucifiedhim.

If youll say that all the three reports are correct,would please explain herelogically how could Jesus be in two places at the same time?

Q3 Another logical problem:Mat 27:5And he cast down the pieces of silver inthe temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.Act 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and fallingheadlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

Both passages agree that Judas died by committing suicide for his betrayal; theproblem is that there is an impossibility in the second passage because it is clearfrom the book of Matthew that he returned/cast down the money given to himand died after hanging himself;

how could he possibly buy a field with the same money which hereturned to the priests after his death? Or did he die twice?

Note that in the second passage the man who bought the field is clearly Judasthe betrayer.

Q4 The four reporters of the New Testament unanimously agreed thatsomething was written above Jesus head when he was on the cross; theproblem is they can not agree as to what exactly was written despite theChristians claim that they were all inspired by the same Holy Spirit:

THIS IS JESUS, THE KING OF THE JEWS -Matthew. 27:37THE KING OF THE JEWS Mark - 15:26THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS -Luke 23:38JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS -John 19:19

What exactly was written above Jesus head?

Q5 The KJV bible is widely used version of the bible by many Christians. In itare passages which are not contained or part of the most ancient manuscripts.Modern bible doesnt contain some of those passages such as the NIV bible,RSV, and others, discarded the verse in1John 5:7because it is an interpolationto the text.Mark 16:9-20is also known to be not part of Mark; some bibles putthese verses in the footnote while others made commentaries about theseverses.

What is your stand as an ex-Muslim apologist, do you consider them aswords of God when you read the KJV bible or not and why?

Thank you very much.

Thats all for now folks.

Thanks to Mod Ateo as well.
http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matthew%2027.44-45http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matthew%2027.44-45http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matthew%2027.44-45http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/John%2019.14http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/John%2019.14http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/John%2019.14http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/John%2019.14http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Mark%2015.25http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Mark%2015.25http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Mark%2015.25http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Mark%2015.25http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Mat%2027.5http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Mat%2027.5http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Mat%2027.5http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matthew.%2027.37http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matthew.%2027.37http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matthew.%2027.37http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Luke%2023.38http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Luke%2023.38http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Luke%2023.38http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/John%2019.19http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/John%2019.19http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/John%2019.19http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/1John%205.7http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/1John%205.7http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/1John%205.7http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Mark%2016.9-20http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Mark%2016.9-20http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Mark%2016.9-20http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Mark%2016.9-20http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/1John%205.7http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/John%2019.19http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Luke%2023.38http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matthew.%2027.37http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Mat%2027.5http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Mark%2015.25http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Mark%2015.25http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/John%2019.14http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/John%2019.14http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matthew%2027.44-45


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WJ

============================================================================================

BTW Mr. L, I was just giving the audience the idea about what we mean bypbuh because it is used only by true Muslims when they mention any name ofa Prophet. It is therefore incumbent on me to let them know because I am usingan abbreviation which they dont understand.

I was not appealing to them that you should or any non-Muslim should do thesame. So dont be very picky on things which you do not understand. All youhave to do is to ask if you dont understand something.

Moreover, I did not make any ad hom in my questions. You are appealing topeoples emotion. The moderator could have noticed that if what you said istrue.

Dont be so emotional, concentrate on the arguments in the debate.

Thanks.

__________________

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects eviland believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allahheareth and knoweth all things.Surah 2:256

04-20-10, 08:18#12

AteoForum Deacon

Filipino

Freethinkers


Ruling #1

Post #4 (WJ's second set of questions) is in violation of the rules limiting the

number of words in this type of posting to only up to 500 words. (Refer toFormat.) The post had 721 words.

Infraction point to WJ: 1

__________________

FB site of RH supporters:http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-SUPP...L/123687403646

Full text of the bill:http://rhbill.org/about/rh-bill-text/

http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=760543&postcount=12http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=760543&postcount=12http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/member.php?u=4235http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/member.php?u=4235http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-SUPPORT-THE-RH-BILL/123687403646http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-SUPPORT-THE-RH-BILL/123687403646http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-SUPPORT-THE-RH-BILL/123687403646http://rhbill.org/about/rh-bill-text/http://rhbill.org/about/rh-bill-text/http://rhbill.org/about/rh-bill-text/http://filipinofreethinkers.org/http://filipinofreethinkers.org/http://filipinofreethinkers.org/http://rhbill.org/about/rh-bill-text/http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-SUPPORT-THE-RH-BILL/123687403646http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/member.php?u=4235http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=760543&postcount=12


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04-20-10, 10:59#13



Good day everyone. Peace of the Christ to all.

As expected and like i said, my opponent has no basis for the corruptionother than "Biblical errors". They don't have real hard evidence regardingtheir accusation, that is why they have no choice when they are trying toprove it but to violate rule 2. notice that he can't ask questions directlythat is related to the topic. simply because the corruption doesn't makesense

Once again errors don't prove when/how/what/who. I can also showeveryonetons contradictions in the Quran, does that mean it is

corrupted? The main point here is that if we have the same bible usedcenturies ago regardless of the content.

You said just because Moses didn't write Deuteronomy therefore its notthe original. what are your basis for this? for sure this is biased and onlybased solely in your faith in the Quran but no other proof outside of it. Doyou keep forgetting Muhammad did not write the Quran? This is assumingMuhammad is a prophet and is always right. Dead Sea Scrolls prove that

the Torah is the same ever since 200BC, to the time of Jesus to the timeof Muhammad, until today. No one complained about authorship andcontradictions until Ibn Khazem(1604). So why now in 2010, a personlike you is following a nobody's footsteps complaining on the contentinstead of relying on facts presented to you that it is the same Torah?

By saying that Deuteronomy is not the original even though the hard

evidence proves its authenticity from thousands of years. are you sayingthe corruption occurred even way before Jesus? If so you are saying thereis no purpose for Jesus as a prophet because they had to wait another600 more years just for Muhammad to restore everything.

I think its not necessary for me to expound on something irrelevant.Explanation is long and would waste my word count.

1. The scribe copyist was not an inspired writer. Ahaziah's actual age was22. Biblical inerrancy refers to the original texts, not the copies. Theerrors are minor errors (e.g. numeric errors) which don't affect anydoctrine in the Bible. We are able to determine what the error is, usually

by context or by other verses. The original meaning is preserved andcomes through. That is, no copyist error is so bad that the meaning of thetext is obscured or lost.

The system of number notation used by the Jews at the time of Ezra

consisted of horizontal hooks that represented decades. would equal

the number 14 where would be 24. If one or both of the hooks weresmudged or flaked off of a papyri, then the dates would be off by tenyears or a factor of ten.source

2.Summary is that the other author used Roman time while the otherJewish timesouce

3. There is no contradiction here at all because both are true. Acontradiction occurs when one statement excludes the possibility ofanother. In fact, what happened here is that Judas went and hung himselfand then his body later fell down and split open. In other words, the ropeor branch of the tree probably broke due to the weight and his body felldown and his bowels spilled out.
http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=760617&postcount=13http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=760617&postcount=13http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/member.php?u=5915http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/member.php?u=5915http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/http://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/joshua-esther/how-old-was-ahaziah-when-he-began-rule-over-jerusalemhttp://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/joshua-esther/how-old-was-ahaziah-when-he-began-rule-over-jerusalemhttp://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/joshua-esther/how-old-was-ahaziah-when-he-began-rule-over-jerusalemhttp://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/matthew-mark/what-hour-was-jesus-crucifiedhttp://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/matthew-mark/what-hour-was-jesus-crucifiedhttp://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/matthew-mark/what-hour-was-jesus-crucifiedhttp://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/matthew-mark/what-hour-was-jesus-crucifiedhttp://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/joshua-esther/how-old-was-ahaziah-when-he-began-rule-over-jerusalemhttp://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/member.php?u=5915http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=760617&postcount=13


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Also, notice thatMatt. 27:3-8tells us specifically how Judas died, byhanging.Acts 1:16-19merely tells us that he fell headlong and hisbowels gushed out. Acts does not tell us that this is the means of hisdeath where Matthew doessource

When Judas threw the thirty pieces of silver down, the priests took themoney and used it to buy the potters field (Matthew 27:7), not knowingthat Judas was going to hang himself there. Judas may not havepurchased the field himself, but it was the money Judas received forbetraying Jesus that purchased the field.source

4. The Inscription above the cross of Christ was written in four differentlanguages: Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Latinsource

5. you know the answer, whenever muslims are in doubt of the englishtranslations either Shakir/Pickthal/YusufAli you go to the Arabic. like you,We also go to the manuscripts and quotations. This is also the purpose ofother translations. You can never prove Christians only rely on 1

translation

Mark 16:9-20is genuine:

A. The facts stated inMark 16:9-20are mentioned in the Gospels(cf.Luke 8:2;John 20:1-8, etc.) and the promise concerning the signswas fully verified by miracles practiced by the Apostles and Christians aslisted in the book of Acts.Hebrews 2:4and other passages furtherconfirm that such signs did follow the believers.

B.Mark 16:9-20is found in nearly all of the other Ancient Manuscripts.These include the Alexandrian (dated around 450 A.D.) which is next tothe Vatican in accuracy and importance.

C. Justin Martyr quoted fromMark 16:9-20about A. D. 160. Among othersecond century writers quoting this passage are Irenaeus and Tatian. Itwas also quoted by Hyppolytus and Dyonisius of Alexandria in the thirdcentury. All of these lived and wrote from one hundred to two hundredyears earlier than the earliest existing manuscript was written or beforeJerome indicated that the passage was not found in some of the Greekmanuscripts of his day.source/source/source

The only problem here is that it is not included in the 2 of the oldestmanuscripts: Codex Vaticanus (b) and Codex Sinaiticus

explanation on why is here:source

Comma Johanneum

According toEusebius(c. 260-342 C.E.), the authenticity of First Johnwas never questioned. Though1 John 5:7is not found in any of the earlyGreek manuscripts it is found in most quotations of church fathers. Mostmodern translations, both Catholic and Protestant, do not include thesewords in the main body of the text. This is still widely debated, but ifindeed this is proven forged, this still doesn't prove the Bible is corruptedas a whole. Included or not it wont do anyth ing to gain or lose forChristianity. Its just an explicit verse on the Trinity.source/source

Do all these matter? are these minor details that important that it coulddestroy Christianity and prove Biblical corruption? You know you havethese kind of things in the Quran. Muslims can't find Major faults in theBible that's why they are desperate and resorted criticizing even thesmallest details. In fact all these critics have been widely disputed byscholars long time ago. can't you just search for the answers yourself?
http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matt.%2027.3-8http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matt.%2027.3-8http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matt.%2027.3-8http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Acts%201.16-19http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Acts%201.16-19http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Acts%201.16-19http://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/matthew-mark/how-did-judas-die-hanging-or-falling-downhttp://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/matthew-mark/how-did-judas-die-hanging-or-falling-downhttp://bible.cc/matthew/27-7.htmhttp://bible.cc/matthew/27-7.htmhttp://bible.cc/matthew/27-7.htmhttp://www.gotquestions.org/Judas-die.htmlhttp://www.gotquestions.org/Judas-die.htmlhttp://www.gotquestions.org/Judas-die.htmlhttp://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/matthew-mark/what-was-written-sign-crosshttp://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/matthew-mark/what-was-written-sign-crosshttp://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Mark%2016.9-20http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Mark%2016.9-20http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Mark%2016.9-20http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Mark%2016.9-20http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Mark%2016.9-20http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Luke%208.2http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Luke%208.2http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Luke%208.2http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/John%2020.1-8http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/John%2020.1-8http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/John%2020.1-8http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Hebrews%202.4http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Hebrews%202.4http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Hebrews%202.4http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Mark%2016.9-20http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Mark%2016.9-20http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Mark%2016.9-20http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Mark%2016.9-20http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Mark%2016.9-20http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Mark%2016.9-20http://bible-christian.org/mark16.htmlhttp://bible-christian.org/mark16.htmlhttp://bible-christian.org/mark16.htmlhttp://www.gotquestions.org/Mark-16-9-20.htmlhttp://www.gotquestions.org/Mark-16-9-20.htmlhttp://www.gotquestions.org/Mark-16-9-20.htmlhttp://www.studytoanswer.net/bibleversions/markend.htmlhttp://www.studytoanswer.net/bibleversions/markend.htmlhttp://bibleq.info/answer/629/http://bibleq.info/answer/629/http://bibleq.info/answer/629/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eusebius_of_Caesareahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eusebius_of_Caesareahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eusebius_of_Caesareahttp://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/1%20John%205.7http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/1%20John%205.7http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/1%20John%205.7http://www.kjv-asia.com/authorized_version_defense_the_johannine_comma__1_john_5_7___av1611_code.htmhttp://www.kjv-asia.com/authorized_version_defense_the_johannine_comma__1_john_5_7___av1611_code.htmhttp://www.kjv-asia.com/authorized_version_defense_the_johannine_comma__1_john_5_7___av1611_code.htmhttp://www.jesus-is-lord.com/1john57.htmhttp://www.jesus-is-lord.com/1john57.htmhttp://www.jesus-is-lord.com/1john57.htmhttp://www.jesus-is-lord.com/1john57.htmhttp://www.kjv-asia.com/authorized_version_defense_the_johannine_comma__1_john_5_7___av1611_code.htmhttp://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/1%20John%205.7http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eusebius_of_Caesareahttp://bibleq.info/answer/629/http://www.studytoanswer.net/bibleversions/markend.htmlhttp://www.gotquestions.org/Mark-16-9-20.htmlhttp://bible-christian.org/mark16.htmlhttp://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Mark%2016.9-20http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Mark%2016.9-20http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Hebrews%202.4http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/John%2020.1-8http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Luke%208.2http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Mark%2016.9-20http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Mark%2016.9-20http://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/matthew-mark/what-was-written-sign-crosshttp://www.gotquestions.org/Judas-die.htmlhttp://bible.cc/matthew/27-7.htmhttp://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/matthew-mark/how-did-judas-die-hanging-or-falling-downhttp://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Acts%201.16-19http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matt.%2027.3-8


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These wont prove the corruption of the Bible and wont proclaim theQuran in any way.

Thank you

__________________

I still pray to God that he will punish you in hell severely for your mockery. -WhiteJewel

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their

heads and strike off every fingertip of them" 8:12


04-20-10, 12:11#14

AteoForum Deacon



Item 4 & 5

Thanks to both of you guys! Our debate is moving really fast. You areposting quickly and arguments are all engaging. Personally, I am learningnew things here. It is also clear to me what issues will be at the impact

point of the arguments.

Now, we have just finished presenting and examining the Affirmativeside. We are now eager to read and examine the Negative position. WJwill make his Affirmative Constructive in the next post (Item 6 of theFormat).

__________________



04-20-10, 14:17

#15

WhiteJewelAsk Those Who Know

For The Things Which

You Dont Know

Join Date: Jun 2009

I begin with the name of Allah, The Most Gracious, The MostMerciful
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Location: PhilippinesPosts: 5,929

Peace be unto those who follow the right guidance.

Good day to everyone especially to our moderator Ateo, to my opponent

L, to the unknown Judges, and most of all, the neutral observers.

I would like to thank my opponent L for challenging me to discuss thistopic in a moderated debate. This topic is so critical for both Muslims andChristians because as L has said in his opening that if the bible isproven to be false then it means Christianity is false, but if it is otherwise,then Islam is false.

I agree with what he said because what is on stake is the primary andfundamental source of Christianity, the bible; if the bible which is believedto be the word of God is unreliable, then how could we rely on other

Christian sources?

I am excited to discuss this topic especially with L because he claims tobe an ex-Muslim; that is to say that he must have enough knowledge forboth Christianity and Islam while as for me, I am not a convert to anyreligion.

The topic seems awkward to L because he is supposed to tell us firstwhat are the Muslims stand why we dont believe that the Torah of Mosesand the injeel of Jesus are his Pentateuch and New Testamentrespectively, but how can he deny the accusations/allegations of theMuslims when I havent put forward those allegations/accusations yet?But since because L claims to be an ex-Muslim, I presumed that hemust have known what those allegations/accusations are.

However, when I read his opening, I didnt see him presenting thoseallegations/accusations. He merely relied on his personal opinion aboutthe subject. If we are asked about the correctness of certain claims, wehave to know first what the claims are, why are they true or false andwhat is/are the bases. In a formal debate like this one, personal opiniondoesnt really count.

In this debate I will try to present my arguments in sections andnumbered in order to make it simple and easy to be understood.

I would like to emphasize beforehand what we Muslims believe about thebible. We believe that the revelations given to the previous Prophets hadbeen changed, but not all of them because some parts are stillacceptable. Therefore, it is a wrong notion that Muslims believe at all ofwhat is in the bible is false. This is why we sometimes used the bible asproof especially when what we are quoting is supported by the Quran.

Reference/s: Baqarah 75 Do you (faithful believers) covet that they willbelieve in your religion despite the fact that a party of them (Jewishrabbis) used to hear the Word of Allah (the Taurat (Torah) then they usedto change it knowingly after they understood it?

Baqarah 78And there are among them (Jews) unlettered people, whoknow not the Book, but they trust upon false desires and they but guess.


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I hope that I have made very clear the Muslims stand about the bible (Not all written in the bible are rejected by Muslims).

Now, those are Quranic claims and they are true only if ProphetMuhammad pbuh is a true Prophet of God. The Question is, are those

claims supported by factual evidences? If yes, then it proves that theQuranic claim is not a fiction but a FACT and at the same time proves hewas a TRUE MESSENGER OF GOD.

Section 1 The bases why Muslims believe that the Torah ofMoses and the Injeel of Jesus is not the bible today.

a) The Muslims believe that the Taurat of Moses is NOT the Pentateuch ofthe Old Testament today.

I dont need to make a lengthy discussion about the proof is this claim

because my opponent L boldly admitted before us that some parts ofthe Pentateuch are compilations of Moses sermons which tells us thatthey were not written by Prophet Moses himself but by people other thanhim who are those people? We dont know because L didnt tell uswho they are. We expect him to tell us who they are in his rebuttalotherwise his answer would be considered baseless and is merely a guessor personal opinion.

L also admitted to us courageously that it was Joshua who wrote theend part of Deuteronomy. We also expect him to present an authenticproof for it because as far as I know, biblical scholars are not sure if itwas really Joshua who wrote it; it is a theory but yet to be proven.However, L seems to be so sure about it, so we need his proofsupported by renowned biblical scholars.

We are correct therefore in our allegation/claim that the Torah known asthe Pentateuch in the Old Testament is not the Torah of Moses revealedby God to him.

b) We also believe that the Injeel (Gospel of Jesus *Maidah 46) isNOT the New Testament that we have today.

I would like to thank L for admitting to us very boldly that Jesus neverread, recited, or seen the New Testament. L is absolutely correct

because the New Testament was written many decades after Jesusascension to heaven L therefore confirmed the correctness of Muslimsaccusation/claim about the New Testament.

It is tantamount of saying that L does fully and absolutely agree thatthe Muslims accusation/allegation about the New Testament is not afiction but a CLEAR FACT.

Therefore, his quotations on those so-called Muslim scholars saying thatthe bible is the Taurat and Injeel mentioned in the Quran is self-refuting;the Quran, the Bible, and L unanimously agree with me while Lsquotations are against us four, but Im not debating them, Im debatingL. It is funny isnt it?

*BTW, I feel that I am not making an opening statement but a rebuttal.This is because L has already given us the idea of what should I say Thank you very much L for being so helpful to me.


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Section 2 Theological and logical problem/s:

The Quran gives us a hint/criterion in determining whether or not ascripture which is claimed to be from God is really from God. Nisaa 82-

Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other ThanAllah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy. Thismakes sense because God is perfect and He doesnt err. If a book is trulyfrom God 100%, it would never contain any discrepancy, much morediscrepancies!

We find many discrepancies in the Bible, but because of the very limitedtext remaining for me, I will just mention some because I already havementioned some of them in my set-2 cross exam for L:

a) The bible says that God repented this is not just an ordinarydiscrepancy because it is a blasphemy to God. God wouldnt repent orrelent, because God doesnt err because He is perfect. Repentance is only

attributable to those who made mistakes or missed something oranything that have been done incorrectly or inappropriately, ect. Towhom did God repent, to the Jews, or did God blame Himself thisdoesnt make sense at all. Gods and goddesses in mythology makemistakes anyway.

b) Some of the Unfulfilled Prophecies -Genesis 4:12, it says Godtold Cain: you will never be able to settle you will be a wanderer. Fewverses later onGenesis 4:17, saysCain built up a city unfulfilledprophecy.

Jeremiah 36:30, it says thatJehoiachin the father of Jehoiachin no onewill be able to sit on his throne - The throne of David, no one will be ableto sit after Jehoiachin. If you read later on,II Kings 24:6it says that

Jehoiachin after he died, later on Jehoiachin sat on the throne-unfulfilled prophecy.

c) Logical impossibility -2Chronicles 21:20Ahaziahs father was 40years old when he died; immediately after him Ahaziah succeeded hisfather in2Chr. 22:2Ahaziah was 42 years old when he reigned after thedeath of his father How can a son be older than the father?

Section 3 - Internal evidences; Scholars admission aboutinterpolations in the bible

It has been found out by bible scholars that there are interpolations ofunknown men in the bible. This is in fact a confirmation of what theQuran is saying to us.

a) It has been a debate since time immemorial until today and untilperhaps eternity between the Catholic and the ProtestantChristians as to how many books exactly does the original biblehas, 73 or 66 Why didnt Jesus, or the Holy Spirit make clear to themhow many books did he/it inspire? Why leave the people in confusionafter warning the people about the curse for those who make additions ordeletions in the bible?

b) Unknown authorship of some books of the bible As for theQuran, it is widely known that the Quran is preserved primarily bymemorization; even until now, Arab and non-Arab Muslims a big numberof them have memorized the whole Quran from beginning to end. The
http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Genesis%204.12http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Genesis%204.12http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Genesis%204.12http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Genesis%204.17http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Genesis%204.17http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Genesis%204.17http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Jeremiah%2036.30http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Jeremiah%2036.30http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/II%20Kings%2024.6http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/II%20Kings%2024.6http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/II%20Kings%2024.6http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/2Chronicles%2021.20http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/2Chronicles%2021.20http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/2Chronicles%2021.20http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/2Chr.%2022.2http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/2Chr.%2022.2http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/2Chr.%2022.2http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/2Chronicles%2021.20http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/II%20Kings%2024.6http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Jeremiah%2036.30http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Genesis%204.17http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Genesis%204.12


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bible, unlike the Quran is not a verbal revelation according to the bulk ofChristianity. The problem is that their authors are uncertain and some areunknown. How could we authenticate such writings if we dont know whotheir (Chronicles, Kings, Hebrews, ect.) authors are in the first place andno o

christian-muslim debate on bible authenticity

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