deposition of frank fiorini sturgis in hunt v. weberman

8/20/2019 Deposition of Frank Fiorini Sturgis in Hunt v. Weberman

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I

UNITED STATES

DISTRICT

COURT

fo r the

SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF

FLORIDA

MIAMI

DIVISION

:_·

\ r

Civ i l

Act ion F i l e No. 76-1252-Civ-PP

E.

HOWARD HUNT

JR.

P l a i n t i f f

v

THE THIRD PRESS--JOSEPH OKPAKU

PUBLISHING CO. INC . a New

York

co rpo ra t i on and JOSEPH OKPAKU

MICHAEL

CANFIELD ALAN

J . WEBER

MAN

and

MARIA GRACIA

FELICIANO

Defendants .

DEPOSITION OF

FRANK A . STURGIS

350

Lincoln

Road

Su i t e 422

Miami Beach F lo r i da 33139

Fr iday

2:00

· ~ ·

Februa ry 3

1978

APPEARANCES

ELLIS

S.

RUBIN

ESQ.

265 E. 26

Ter race

Miami

Flo r ida

33137

Attorney for P l a i n t i f f

MARK J . FRIEDMAN ESQ.

350 Lincoln

Road Su i t e

422

Miami Beach Flo r ida

33139

Attorney fo r Defendants

{arrie

Jan£

~ o l l a n

liilingual Court

Rtporltr

Also pre sen t :

Alan J . Weberman

Defend

an t

Public

liltnngraphu

-

fntuprtl tr

•

iransl•lion

s

1800

.

le . '. 4 flot

.

flpt. 820

flliAmt florirl J 331 . 5

~ 0 5 633 .0 056

-·--

- -

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - _



· ·

·

·

-- - -

I N D E X

l

WITNESS

DIRECT

CROSS

I

Frank A S tu rg i s

3

EXHIBITS

Page

Defendants Exhib i t No 1

90

..

.... · 1 ·

CERTIFIED

QUESTIONS

N

0

N

E

2



\

/

I I

-

THEREUPON:

FRANK A.

STURGIS

was du ly

cau t i oned and sworn, then

c a r e f u l l y

examined,

t e s t i f y i n g

as

fo l lows

upon

h i s

sworn

o a t h :

DIRECT

EXAMINATION

Q

(By

Mr .

Friedman) Would you s t a t e your

f u l l name fo r t he r e c o rd , p l e a se ?

A

Frank Anthony S t u r g i s .

Q Are you t he same person spoken o f by

Mr.

Hunt

in

h i s

Amended Compla in t

as

be i ng

s u b j e c t to

a cons p i r acy to k i l l you?

MR RUBIN: May I see

what

you a r e

r e -

f e r r i n

g

t o ,

p l e a se?

MR

FRIEDMAN:

(Handing document

to

c o u n se l . )

MR .

RUBil\J:

Ma y we

read

t h i s f o r a

monent

?

MR. FRIEDMAN:

C e r t a i n l y , sir

They

a re

your p lead in g s .

I b e l i e v e t he second

o r

last page

wi l l

i nc lude

the c o n s p i r a c y .

I

unde r s t and

you

f l ew

to

New

York

to

a t t e n d

the

d e p o s i t i o n o f

M ar i t a

Lorens and your e x -

penses were

$198

and change , and t h i s i s

a

check f rom

W

e be rm a n ' s mother

fo r

200 fo r

y o u r s e l f .

' R • RU B

IN :

Thank

y

ou.

I w i l l send

you

3



a r e c e i p t .

MR WEBERMAN:

Al so send

me

$198,

so I

expec t

$2

back.

Q

By Mr.

Friedman)

What were

you

do ing

a t 12:30 p.m. on November

22,

1963?

MR WEBERMAN: Could ask

one ques -

t ion?

MR RUBIN: am going to

o b j e c t to the

de fendant in t h i s case i n t e r f e r i n g with

t he

d e p o s i t i o n

MR FRIEDMAN: He w i l l conduc t

himsel f

with the d i gn i t y t ha t has been m a in ta ine d

t h roughou t

t h i s case and t he re a r e no p ie s

in the

oven.

MR

RUBIN: Thank you.

Q (By Ir.

Friedman)

What

were

you doing

about 12:30

p.m.

on November

22,

1963?

A On

November 22,

1963,

a t

about 12 :30

p.rn. , I

was

a t a pa r ty

in

my home in Miami, F l o r i d a

with my wi fe Jane t S t u r g i s my mothe r - in - l aw E l i z a

be th Hunt ,

and

my

nephew,

who was

a t my

home

a t

t h a t

t ime

Jim

Hunt.

Q Where was t h i s home l oca t ed?

A 2515 N. W

122nd

S t r e e t Miami,

Flo r ida

33167.

I s t h i s

the same home

you m a in ta in

tocia.y ?



- - - - - - - - - - - -

A

Yes, s i r .

Q

Can

you

desc r ibe your movements

on t ha t

day, to

the

b e s t of your

r eco l l e c t i on?

A

Not

r e a l l y ; t was

so

many

years

ago.

I

was

home.

I d i d go ou t .

I have

o the r people

with t he Fede ra l Government

t h a t do have

on record t ha t

cou ld t e s t i f y o r have a l r e a d y t e s t i f i e d

t ha t I was in Miami on

November

22,

1963.

Q

November

22nd

was

a

working

da y .

Were

you

working a t

t ha t

t ime?

A Most ~ ~ ~ l y .

Q o you have any reason

fo r

no t be ing a

work t h a t day?

A What

day was t on?

MR.

WEBI:R 1AN:

Fr i day .

THE DEPONENT:

Fr iday?

No

r e a s o n .

Q

(By

Mr. Friedman)

Does

t he name

Gera ld ine Shamm mean a ny th ing to you?

A

Gera ld ine Shamm

Yes.

She

was a

woma

who

l ived

in

Havana, Cuba.

Gera ld ine I

r e c r u i t e d

to

spy for

the

United

S t a t e s

Government

in Havana, Cuba.

She

l a t e r

- - befo re

the

Bay of P igs

Invas ion was

a r r e s t e d for

spying in

Cuba,

r ece i ved

a

10-yea r

sen tence went to pr i son

in

Cuba

for

~

years ;

was r e l ea sed a f t e r

the

a t t o rn e y r ep re sendng th



Uni ted S t a t e s

Government

in p r i v a t e

i n t e r e s t

a t

t h a t

t ime , secured

t he r e l e a s e of t he

Bay

of P igs

p r i s o n e r s

and,

n a t u r a l l y ,

G e ra l d i n e Shamm.

Q

What were you do ing t h a t

day?

You say

you d o n t

remember.

o you remember

I d o n t

r e c a l l .

Q

Do you

remember t a l k i n g to

a

Mr. Michae

Canf i e l d ,

t he

c o - a u t h o r o f t h i s book?

On t h a t

day?

Q

About

the

e ve n t s

of

t h a t

day .

Yes.

Q

Do you remember

what

you t o l d him?

Not r e a l l y ;

it s been so

Q Could you have t o l d

him you

were

watching t e l e v i s i o n ?

P o s s i b l y ; ye s , ye s .

s a

~ t t e r o f

f a c t , I

t h i nk

my m o t h e r -

i n - l a w t o l d me

t he

p r e s i d e n t

was a s s a s s in a t e d .

Q Were you watch ing

t e l e v i s i o n

around

12:30 i n t he a f te rnoo n t h a t day?

I

d o n t

remember;

so

many

y e a r s

ago .

I

d o n t r e c a l l .

Q So you

w o u l d n t

remember

what

program

w s

on?

i\

I t h i nk it was on a l l

s t a t i o n s .

It was



a c o n t i n u a t i o n

t h a t

day

o f

t he a s s a s s i n a t i o n .

Q

In

November

o f 1963,

did you visit

Dal l a s , Texas?

A

P o s s i b l y .

You

must

unde r s t a nd

t h a t

I

was

do ing a

s e r i e s o f o p e ra t i o n s

in t he

Ca r ibbe a n a r

and

I

went

numerous

t imes to

Mexico

so t h e r e i s a

good p o s s i b i l i t y .

Q Do you remember how

many

t im e s

you

v i s i t e d D a l l a s i n November o f 1963?

I d o n t r e c a l l o f f h a n d .

Q

o you remember t he r e a s on

f o r t h e

vi

s p e c i f i c a l l y to

D a l l a s , o t h e r t ha n t h i s

A I

was

j u s t p a s s i n g t h rough , be c a us e I

went t h rough D a l l a s , I

went

th rough Nuevo La re do , I

went

t h rough

many

d i f f e r e n t

cities.

Did you meet t he mayor o f

D a l l a s

in

November o f 6 3 , Mr. Ear l Cable?

( P h o n e t i c . )

I d o n t

r e c a l l ;

no.

I d o n t b e l i e v e

ever d id meet

him.

Q

Did

yott

v i s i t Chicago in November o f

63?

No.

Q

Did t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e q u e s t i o n you i

November o f 1963 in Chicago , I l l i n o i s ?

No.



Q Are you f a m i l i a r

wi th

the name of a

Cuban

e x i l e ,

Homer Ec he va r r i a ?

A P o s s i b l y .

Q

You w o u l d n t know a ny th ing

o t h e r

t ha n

f a m i l i a r i t y wi th t he

name

o r - -

A

Well t he l a s t

name

sounds f a m i l i a r .

I know many Cubans and u n fo r tu n a t e ly some I

knew

by

s i g h t .

Unles s

I

am

c o n s t a n t l y

in touch w i th

them I

proba b ly

would

know them

much

b e t t e r

by

t h e i r

f a c e s .

Q

o

you

know an Amer ican i n fo rm a n t named

Thomas

Mosley?

A No.

Q Are you f a m i l i a r w i th A na s t a s io

Somoza

the d i c t a t o r

of N icaragua?

A

Yes

yes .

I know

him

p e r s o n a l l y .

Q

When

did

you first

meet

him; to

t he

bes t

of your r e c o l l e c t i o n ?

Oh

let s see .

Somoza? I d o n t know

in what y e a r I met

P r e s i d e n t

Somoza

but

I

met

him

one t ime in Cora l Gables , F l o r i d a .

Q

You were

in

Miami dur i ng November

6 3 ?

Oh

yes ; q u i t e a

b i t .

I was do ing a i r

o p e r a t i o n s in

and ou t

of

t he Car ibbean a rea ; and,



a l s o , in Cuba.

Q o you

s p e c i f i c a l l y remember when

Pres iden t

Kennedy

v i s i t e d

the Miami a rea in t h a t

month?

A

Not

p a r t i c u l a r l y

t h a t month.

I be l ieve

t h a t Pres iden t

Kennedy

came to the

Miami

Beach

a rea

two

d i f f e r e n t t imes .

On one

of

t he occas ions

t h a t

Pres iden t

Kennedy did come to Miami Beach,

I took

ex-

pres iden t

Car los Pr o

to v i s i t and speak

with

t he

P re s id e n t .

I

a r ranged t h a t - -

Q That

was

in November of 63?

A

I d o n ' t r e c a l l , because

he

was

t he r e

two

t imes

on

Miami Beach, and I

d o n ' t

r e c a l l ; but t

could

have

been.

Q

o

you remember

what

happened

to

Mr.

Prfo

in the recen t

pas t ?

A Yes. Mr.

Prfo

commit ted s u i c i d e .

J

Were

you ques t ioned by l oca l

o r f e d e r a

po l i ce about t h i s p a r t i c u l a r v i s i t

of P r es i den t Kenne

to Miami?

No

As a matter of

f a c t , t was

very

easy

for me

to

t ake the Pres iden t th rough

the

s e c u r i t

se t -up t h a t was se t around t he P r es i den t .

There

was

no

problem

i n t ak ing

Pres iden t Car l os P r o

and myself

to see

the P r es i den t .

9



As a

m a t t e r of f a c t , on t he second

f l o o r of the ho te l

t h e y

s e t up

a

r e c e p t i o n room fo r

two hundred peop le and

I and

e x - P r e s i d e n t

o f

Cuba,

Car los P r o , were

p a r t o f

the two hundred peop le t h a t

spoke

to

P r e s i d e n t Kennedy.

Q Was

t he I n t e r n a t i o n a l Communist

B r ig ad e

i nvo lved in t h i s

speech?

What

speech

a r e

you

t a l k i n g abou t?

Q Let m withdraw

t he

q u e s t i o n .

Was

your

group ,

t he

I n t e r n a t i o n a l

A n t i -

Communist Brigade , f lown

anywhere

d u r i n g

t he

t ime o f

P r e s i d e n t Kennedy s visit to Miami, fo r

t he

purpose o f

check ing

t he crowd, check ing

fo r doub le a g e n t s , t h i n g s

of t h i s na tu r e ?

Well , you have to

unde r s t a nd t h a t t he

In t e rn a t i o n a l Communist Br igade were

a

group

o f

peop le

who

were d e d i c a t e d i n o rde r

to

f i g h t Communism,

and

t h a t is Communism

i n s i d e

of C a s t r o ' s

Cuba.

So

we d id a

s e r i e s of

o p e r a t i o n s

a g a i n s t Ca s t ro Cuba and t h a t was our l i m i t

o f

what t he

Br igade

members

had

to

do.

Q

Did

t he I n t e r n a t i o n a l

Communist Br igad

under

your s u p e r v i s i o n o r wi th your

knowledge, s u p e r -

v i s e

o r

a t t e n d a

visit o f

P r e s i d e n t

Kennedy in t he

im

frame

of 1963 in Miami?

10



I

b e l i e v e

I

j u s t

answered t h a t ques -

t i o n , to the

fac t

t h a t went

the re

as an

i n d iv id u a l

with the e x - P r e s i d e n t

o f

Cuba.

Natu ra l ly - - w e l l ,

l e t

me go befo re

t h a t .

N a tu ra l l y , e x -P re s id e n t Car l os

P r i o

c a l l e d

me to ask me

i f

could se t up a

meet ing

wi th

Pres iden t

Kennedy who

was

coming down to Miami

Beach.

sa id ,

yes ,

w i l l

t r y to

do

so , which d i d .

In

doing so, n a t u r a l l y ,

both

P re s id e n t Car l os

P r i o and

I

went

to

see

P r e s i d e n t

Kennedy,

whom I

i n t roduced to

Pres iden t P r io .

Q

Were

the re any members

of

t he

I n t e r -

na t iona l Anti-Communist

Brigade

in

a t t endance

a t

t h a t

meeting?

J us t mysel f

and

the e x -P re s id e n t of

Cuba, because

t h a t s the only

ones t h a t I c a l l e d to

have t h i s persona l gr ee t i ng with the P re s id e n t of the

United

S t a t e s .

Again,

we have i n fo rma t i on

t h a t you

spoke with Michael

Canf i e ld ,

co -au tho r o f t h i s book,

and

t ha t

you

ind ica ted

to

him

t h a t

you

were

que s t ione d

by the

FBI

on the day a f t e r the a s s a s s i n a t i o n . o you

remember

the names

of those

agen t s?

Let me

say t h i s :

I have

read

many

book

p e r t a in in g

to Wate rga te , pe r t a i n i ng to the a s s a s s i n a -

· ~

11



- -- - --------------

t i on of Pres iden t Kennedy,

and

every

t ime

t h a t

my

name

i s

ment ioned

in

any of these books - - r e g a rd l e s s

of

whether it

i s of

P re s id e n t Kennedy o r

the

Water-

ga te - -

I

look , myse l f , and what

they

say

i n t hese

books

pe r t a i n i ng to

me, and

if t he in fo rma t ion i s

wroll<; ' •out l"e,

then

I cons ide r

the

book its lf 50

o r more as noth ing bu t a bunch o f l i e s .

Now, p e r t a i n i n g to - - I mean,

I m

saying a l l

books because

the news media, you can t ll

them

one

th ing

and

many

people

- -

not

a l l

peop l e

w i l l change

what

you say , and

u n fo r tu n a t e ly t h i s

i s

the

way it happens .

And

o t he r peop l e , who

do

no t

i n v e s t i

gate t h e i r sources p ro p e r ly , w i l l con t i nue to go

ahead and

w r i t e

what t hey have read from o t h e r source

So,

na tu ra l l y you

have a c o n t in u a t i o n

of

wrong

i n f o r ~ t i o n or bad

i n fo rma t ion , and j u s t

c o n t i n u a l l y

going

on.

Now, t he

FBI did make con t ac t

wi th m

a f t e r the a s s a s s i n a t i o n of P re s id e n t Kennedy; yes .

When,

I

do

not

know;

b u t ,

I am

p o s i t i v e ,

I m s u r e

the

FBI

have

it

in

t he i r reco rds ,

in t h e i r memos, who

the

two

agent s

were,

you know,

what day, what t ime ,

and

so fo r th .

They did come and

v i s i t me and ques t ion

l



me abou t my a c t i v i t i e s

dur ing

the a s s a s s in a t i o n of

P r e s i d e n t

Kennedy.

Q

o you remember one o f those agen t s

i n d i c a t i n g

to

you

t he

fo l l ow ing

words :

Frank ,

you

were one

o f

t he

few

p e o p l e in t h i s c oun t ry

capab l e o f

p u l l i n g

something l i k e t h i s ?

A

No. The a ge n t t o l d me t h a t I was one

person in

t h i s

c o u n t r y t h a t cou ld

p o s s i b l y

do t h i s ,

i I wanted t o .

Q o

you

remember

t he

name James J .

O Connor a s be ing

one o f t hos e a ge n t s ?

A

Offhand ,

no; bu t I 'm sure t h a t Mr.

O Connor

cou ld

p o s s i b l y

be one o f t he two a g e n t s t h a t

I

spoke w i th .

Q

o you remember

t he

name of t he p r o p a -

ganda

s e c r e t a ry o f t he I n t e r n a t i o n a l Communist

Brigade?

A

Unders tand

one

t h i n g ;

t h a t t he

Br igade went

a long

fo r so

l ong and

t hen

I

d i s a s s o c i a t

myse l f wi th

t he Br iga de .

Q

P r i o r

to

November

o f

1963?

A I 'm no t s u r e e x a c t l y

when

it happened

and t he pe rson

who

d i d

t a ke o v e r

t he Brigade was

J im

Buchanan from, I t h i n k

he

l i v e d

up in F o r t La ude rda l e

Q So t h i s i s su b se q u e n t

to

your

a s s o c i a

- - - - -

13



wi th the Br igade

o r

contemporaneous wi th i t ?

P o s s i b l y ; it s been so f a r , so

many

ye a r s ago.

Q Do you remember Mr. Buchanan g i v i n g

o

a news s to ry t h a t a l l e g e d t h a t Lee Harvey

Oswald

was

in

Miami

in

1963?

A

Oh yes

As a m a t t e r o f

f a c t ,

h i s

b r o t h e r , J e r r y Buchanan

was one of t he pe op le t h a t

was with

my group and J e r r y

d i d g ive

me

some

i n fo rm a

t i o n

to the f a c t t h a t he t hough t t h a t t h e r e was a

p o s s i b i l i t y t h a t one of t he pe r s ons

- -

now

you

must

remember

t h a t

dur ing

t h a t

p a r t i c u l a r

t ime t h e r e

were

hundreds

o f Amer icans in

t he

a re a , p l u s Canad ians in

t h i s a rea

here

t r y in g

to

make c o n t a c t

w i th

v a r i o u s

Cuban

groups

in

o r e ~

to

be

i nvo lved

a g a i n s t

Cuba

a

J e r ry d id tell me t h a t t h e r e was a p o s s i b i l i t y t h a t

Oswald

was

in t h i s a rea and

t h a t he

had a

f i g h t w i t h

Oswald; he w a s n ' t

s u r e ,

but

t h i s

i s

what

he t o l d me.

Q

o

you remember g i v i ng a

s t o r y

to any

body e s p e c i a l l y

Mr. Canf i e l d ,

t h a t

you may

have bee

in Washington,

o .

C. ,

on

November 22 1963?

I d o n ' t r e c a l l .

Q o you remember what you were

do ing

f

a l i v i n g a t t he t ime o f t he

a s s a s s i n a t i o n ,

what your

job was o r how you ea rned your l i v i n g ,

what

you ea rn

14



your l i v in g a t ?

T h a t s q u i t e a

l ong s p e l l .

I would

have to r e a l l y wrack my mind to f i nd ou t a t

t h a t

p a r t i c u l a r t ime

what

was doing .

Right a t

t he

p re -

sen t

t ime , d o n t know;

but

could , you

know,

t h rough r eco rds and

so fo r th .

Q Pas t reco rds , fo r example?

Yeah,

pas t

r eco rds ; I c ou ld l ook

through

them

and tell

you

what

was doing a t t h a t

p a r t i c u l a r

t ime.

Q Did

you

eve r

have any

a s s o c i a t i o n

with

Lee Harvey Oswald

p r i o r to November 22,

1963?

No.

Q Did

you eve r have any

i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t

would t e l l you t ha t Lee Harvey

Oswald

was

t r y i n g to

a s s o c i a t e himse l f

wi th the

Brigade

or

o th e r

commit tee

i nc lud ing

t he Free Cuba

Commit tee?

Yes.

Q You

did

have t h a t i n fo rma t i on p r i o r to

November

22,

1963?

Yes, and

I t u rned t h a t over

to

the

government .

Q Pr io r o r a f t e r

November of

63?

t

would

have to be a f t e r 63 .

Q

But you

had no persona l communica t ion?

15



Not t h a t I know

o f .

Q Do

you

remember t he

amount

of

t imes

t h a t

you were

que s t ione d

by

t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e

FBI

Church Committee

o r

o th e r s

of

an o f f i c i a l

n a t u r e

abou t t he

a s s a s s i n a t i o n o f

P r e s i d e n t

Kennedy?

I was

ques t i oned by t he

FBI

s h o r t l y

a f t e r

t he a s s a s s i n a t i o n .

The

ne x t t ime I was que s -

t i one d abou t the

a s s a s s i n a t i o n was

d u r i n g

t he Water -

ga te

problems

t h a t

I had.

The ne x t t ime

was t he

R o c k e f e l l e r

Commission

and ll t he way up to t he p re s e n t

d a y .

Q Each

t ime once

fo r

each

s e t o f q u e s -

t i ons?

No

numerous

t im e s .

The

r e a s o n

why t he

numerous

t imes

t h a t

I

was

q u e s t i o n e d

by

t h e s e p e o p l e

because

s i nce

1972 my

problem

wi th

Waterga te I r e -

ce ived th rough f r i e n d s i n f o r m a t i o n

p e r t a i n i n g

to

t he

a s s a s s i n a t i o n ; n a t u r a l l y which

I in t u r n

t u r n e d

t h i s

i n fo rm a t ion

over to

t he A s s a s s i n a t i o n

Commit tees ;

n a t u r a l l y .

Q

Do you

have

a t a pe

r e c o r d e r

on your

t e l e phone

as

a g e n e r a l c our s e o f conduc t?

o I have a t a pe r e c o r d e r ?

I have a

t a ? e

r e c o r d e r

and

I t a pe

a ny th ing

- -

Q

Yes.

o you t a pe a ny th ing on t h a t ?

16



Le t me f i n i s h .

I t ape

a n y t h i n g t h a t

comes

on the

t e l e v i s i o n p e r t a i n i n g t o the

JFK o r CIA.

Q

o you t a pe your own

t e l e p h o n e

when

incoming c a l l s

come

i n?

No.

Q o you know why t h e v a r i o u s

co mmi t t ee s

and government a ge nc ie s

ques t i oned

you

a b o u t t h a t

a s s a s s i n a t i o n ?

Unders tand one t h in g : The q u e s t i o n i n g

of

t he

A s s a s s i n a t i o n

Commit tees ,

when

t he y

were

in

t ouch wi th

me

I have went v o l u n t a r i l y , I

have

NEVER

been subpoenaed; t he y

have

c a l l e d me

and

I

have

went

v o l u n t a r i l y ,

numerous t imes

a t

my

own

e x p e n se .

I

have

no th ing to h ide .

The F e d e r a l

Government knows of my a c t i v i t i e s , knows

where

I was

a t

on

t h a t

p a r t i c u l a r

day of t he a s s a s s i n a t i o n , and I

am q u i t e sure t h a t

t he

governmen t

a s f a r a s I m

concerned - -

i s wel l

aware

o f who i s

beh ind - - IF

t he re was

a c o n s p i r a c y , I

b e l i e v e

t h e r e

was

a

c o n s p i

racy

- - and

t he y

a re wel l aware

o f

who

was

b e h i n d

t h e

c o n s p i r a c y .

Q

Do you remember where you were t h e we

end p r i o r

to

Q

t he


No. T h a t s too f a r

back

r e a l l y .

No.

Did

you

e v e r s t a y

a t a

p l a c e c a l l e d

t h

17



the Cabana Motel in D a l las o r For t Worth,

Texas?

A Never

Q o you remember

any mote ls

t h a t you

may

have s t ayed a t in the

D a l l a s

a rea?

A

No.

Any t ime

I

went to D a l l a s

I

went

th rough Dal las .

I

never s t ayed any p lace i n D a l l a s .

Q

Did you ever

l e ave

the

a i r p o r t

when

yo

were

t r a v e l i n g ?

nec t ions?

I assume

you

were making p l a ne con-

A I

went th rough

I

drove t h rough b e

cause most of the

t ime

t h a t I went

to

Mexico, I drove

through Texas .

Q But you never s t ayed

ove r n i gh t

in D al l

o r For t worth?

A

Never

s t ayed

ove r n i gh t

in

D a l l a s

Texas.

Q

o

you

know Orlando Bosch?

A

Yes. Orlando

Bosch was a r e b e l l e a d e r

in the

Escambray Mountains .

He had a group

o f

app rox

ima te ly 1 500 g u e r r i l l a s t h e r e .

The CIA

was

m a i n t a i n

ing t h i s

g u e r r i l l a

fo rce up to

a

p o i n t

where orde r s

came

down

t h a t the g u e r r i l l a fo rces and a c t i v i t i e s ha

to

be s topped .

So, n a t u r a l l y one of t he

boys came

over with

the

m i l i t a r y commander of t h i s

g u e r r i l l a



force in Cuba

came

over

to

t r y to make c o n t a c t

in

the loca l

a rea with the

CIA o r persona l c o n t a c t in

o r d e r to

con t i nue t he supply

of t he se

fo rce s

in t he

Escambray

Mounta ins .

Q Did you

know

t ha t

t he l a t e

Dr.

Manuel

Ar t ime?

A Yes.

Q Did you

work

with him

in

t he MRR?

A

Let me say

t h i s

here . I

had

c o n t a c t

with Artime

s ince

Art ime came

from

Cuba.

I was p a r t

o f the o r i g i n a l

o f f i c e r s

t ha t

orga n iz e d

t he

RR

Manuel

Artime

was an ind iv idua l who l ft Cuba came

to the

Uni ted

S ta t e s .

I

did not

know Art ime in Cuba

but

I was

one o f

the o r i g i n a l

o f f i c e r s

who he l ped

oPganize

the

RR

movement

in

the

Uni ted

S t a t e s .

Q

Would you

say

t ha t the

RR was i d e n -

t i c a l to the group

known

as

the

M-I-R-R?

A No t he y a re two d i f f e r e n t groups .

The MIRR was a group headed

by

Dr.

Orlando Bosch who

broke o f f

from t he

RR

in Cuba and

formed h is

own

o rg a n i z a t i o n which

was

t he FIRR

phone t ic )

Q Was your f r i end , Gera l d i ne Shamma a l s

a s soc ia ted with Dr.

Artime?

Yes.

19



- -

Q

To

your

knowledge?

A Yes.

Q Did you ever work with Dr. Art me in

the

M-I-R-R?

A

Art me

never

worked in t he MIRR.

Re-

member,

the re are

two

d i f f e r e n t

or gan i za t i ons ,

two

d i f f e r e n t

l e ade r s .

Dr.

Bosch was

the

l e ade r of t he

MIRR.

I j u s t want to spec i fy t h a t , you

know

Q

I unde r s t and . You exp l a i ned the se tw

a reas

and

answered

t he ques t ions and you have

been

most c o -o p e ra t i v e .

Did you inform t he

Uni t ed

S t a t e s o v e

p l o t aga i ns t Henry

Kiss inge r in La t in

Q

ment about a

America;

s p e c i f i c a l l y ,

in Costa

Rica ,

t h a t involved

Grlando

Bosch?

A Let

m

say t h i s .

I

n o t i f i e d the

American Government o f an i n t e r n a t i o n a l

p l o t to k i l l

I r . Kiss inger .

Let

me

say t h i s ,

change t h a t a little

b i t

around

- -

not a round, I m

so r ry .

I

n o t i f i e d the

American Government t h

t he re

was

a

p l o t

to

d i s r u p t

and poss ib ly do harm to

Mr.

Ki ss i nge r and,

a l s o ,

t he pres iden t o f a f o r e i g n

count ry

when

he

would

a r r i v e to t h i s

c o u n t r y .

20



a

Yes, I advi sed the

government

of t h i s

p l o t .

Q Were

you aware t h a t

Mr.

Art me

a r rang

for Bosch' r e l ea s e from the Cos ta Rican j a i l ?

A No, I was

no t aware o f t h a t .

Q

Did you

know

the

Lanz Bro t he r s?

A Comandante

Pedro D az

Lanz

has

been a

f r i end of mine

over a

pe r iod o f many,

many yea r s .

Pedro , I knew in Cuba when I

came

out o f t he mounta

a t

one p a r t i c u l a r t ime . I was in t roduced to Pedro

Diaz

Lanz

in

Sant iago de Cuba, where both

him

and

m

s e l f went ou t o f Cuba to

do

a se r i e s of ope r a t i ons t

br ing supp l ie s in to Cuba fo r the

g u e r r i l l a s .

Q

o

you

remember when you

first

met M

Pedro

D1az

Lanz?

A Mmm - - t h a t s going back

many

yea rs a

I

would be l ieve it was e i

t he r

1957, 1958.

Q

Mr .

Lanz i nd i ca t ed 1957, so

your

mem

i s

most c o r r e c t .

A

Ei the r o n e ,

b e c a u s e

I know I came

o u

o f

the

mounta ins t hose two y e a r s .

Q And

you

were f ami l i a r with h i s b r o t h

Marcos?

Yes.

the Cuban Air

Force .

Ma

r cos

was the second c h i e f o f

His pos i t i on was

I n s pec t o r

- - - -

21



General of the Cuban

Air

Force .

Q

Did you ever have any

con t ac t

w i t h

Pedro

or

Marcos

dur ing

November 1963?

No.

Unders tand t h a t

Pedro and Marcos

a re my

f r i e n d s even

u n t i l

today

and we have c o n s t a n t l y

been

in

touch wi th

each

o t h e r ,

whether it spanned

over

a per iod

o f , you know days

or weeks or

wha t eve r , fo r

t he se many

yea rs .

Q Did

you

have any con tac t with

him in

Da l la s , Texas in November o f 1963?

No.

Q o

you

remember the Novo Bro the rs ,

Cuban e x i l e s t ha t

are pr e s en t l y

in

New Je r sey?

e Novo?

Q

Guil lermo Novo?

The name - -

I d o n t

r e c a l l t he

name

a t

the presen t

t ime.

many

Cubans.

It s

pos s i b l e .

Like

I

sa i d ,

I

know

Q

G. P a t r i ck Hemming

a l so

known a s J e r r y

Hemming?

Yes.

Q

Did you have

any a s s o c i a t i o n w i t h

him

in

November of 1963?

J e r r y P a t r i ck

Hemming

has ,

I v e

known

him over

a per i od o f

yea r s

t ha t go

way back

and I



r ··

c o u ld n t e x a c t l y tell you

t he

exac t month o r yea r

ac t ua l l y t ha t

I met

J e r ry ,

and I have known him

a l l

o

t hese years ; bu t , aga in ,

you know

people

go

t h e i r

ow

way and

you see

them o c c a s io n a l l y .

what-have

you.

him before

63 .

I r e a l l y

d o n t know what t hey

do

o r

so , the re i s a p o s s i b i l i t y t h a t I knew

Q o you have any evidence

t h a t

Alan

J u l e s

Weberman the

gent leman

s i t t i n g nex t

to

me

t oda

engaged i n consp i racy t o l u r e you to

New

York C i ty an

in

f ac t consp i re , by himsel f o r with o the r s , to

commi

the crime of

murder

on you?

Let

me

say

t h i s : Mari ta

Lorens and I

have

been

in

touch

with

each

o the r

over

t he t e l ephone

and

one evening - -

and, aga in , t h i s

i s ,

I imagine a

few months

ago - -

I

r ece ived

a

phone

c a l l

from

a

news

paper man

in New York from

t he

New

York News

His

name

was

Paul Mesk i l l ,

M-e-s -k - i -1 -1 ,

I

b e l i e v e .

Mr. Meski l l

t o l d

me t h a t M ar i t a

Lorens

was a t

h is of f

i c e

and

ment ioned to

him or

gave him

s t o r y .

He was

not su re

whether h i s e d i t o r

would

pub-

l i s h the s t o r y o r

no t ;

but he wanted

to t a l k

to me

about t h i s p a r t i c u l a r s t o r y .

So n a t u r a l l y , what he t o l d me I

n a t u r a l l y

denied

it

t he f ac t

t ha t

she s t a t e d

in the



·

s to ry

t ha t she was in

Miami,

F l o r i da , she left

Miami,

F lo r id a ,

two

days

befo re t he

p r e s i d e n t ' s

a s s a s s ina t ion ,

drove

from

Miami,

F l o r i da , to

Dal l a s , Texas ,

and

in

the au tomobi le

were

- - wel l , I 'm not su re o f all o f

the names - - mysel f ,

he r ,

she ment ioned Dr.

Orlando

Bosch,

Pedro

D az Lanz, some o th e r

Cubans,

a

coup l e

o f

Cuban

b ro th e r s - - which I th ink

she

got

mixed up

t he r e

because

the re

a r e

on ly two br o t he r s , Pedro

D az Lanz

and

Marcos

Lanz

- -

and, a l s o ,

t h a t

t he person who

f inanced

t h i s

t r i p

to

Dal l a s was E.

Howard

Hunt .

I sa id , It's a lie.

something l i k e t h a t ?

ow could she say

He s a i d ,

' 'Wel l ,

f r a n k ly , I 'm on l y

t e l l i n g you what she t o ld

me,

and

I wanted to check

wi th you".

I sa id , I d o n ' t

b e l i e v e

t h a t Mar i t a

could say t he se

th ings

because it's an u t t e r lie .

He says , ' 'Well , I

d o n ' t

t h ink my e d i t o r i s

going

to

p r i n t

it

though .

Then

the next day, b ingo ,

t h i s

came

out

over

the wire showing

he r ,

mysel f

and

what

she

had s t a t e d , and t he se

accus a t i ons .

Now a per i od o f t ime went by.

Mr.

Gaeton

Fonzi (phone t i c ) ,

the Inves t iga tor

fo r t he

House

Assass ina t ion

Committee, con tac t ed me.

He

t o ld

24



me, ' 'Frank, I got a c a l l

from Washington to

go

ahead

and

check

i n to

these a l l e g a t i o n s of Mar i ta Lorens

and

n a t u r a l l y I have to sit

down

and

t a l k

with you .

Fine . So

we

s e t up

a

meet ing,

t a l k e d

with Fonzi and he says , What do you t h ink i s beh ind

t h i s ?

I

s a i d

I

d i d n ' t

know. So, n a t u r a l l y ,

I

defended

Mari ta .

I s a i d ,

' ' I d o n ' t

t h ink Mari ta

Lorens would

do

t h i s by h e r s e l f . There had to be

some reason or some fo rce pushing her

behind

t h i s .

He

says ,

Well , it seems

t ha t

way. I

j u s t

c a n ' t

be l i eve

it ,

you

know,

eve ry t h i ng

t h a t ' s

going

on .

Now

you

must unders t and

t h a t Gaeton

Fonzi

i s

the

same

i n v e s t i g a t o r

who

had

been

in

t ouc h

wi th me

prev ious ly

t h rough t he

Sweicher

Commit tee and

so f o r t h .

e

had d i scussed and

I have

given

him

i n fo rma t i on t h a t I have r ece ived p e r t a i n i n g t o ,

you

know,

what I t h ink o r

what

I thought

was

a consp i racy

to

k i l l

the pr e s i den t

and c e r t a i n i n d i v i d u a l s

whom

I

be l i eved were i nvo lve d in t he c o n s p i r a c y , and the

evidence pe r t a i n i ng to t h i s involvement .

So,

he

d i d

ask me,

' 'Have

you been in

touch wi th Mar i ta Lorens? ' '

I s a i d No, I haven

•

He s a i d ,

I

t h i nk it

might be

a

good

25



\

i dea ,

speak wi th

her

and

ask her

about t h e s e

a c c u s a -

t ions .

I s a i d ,

f i n e .

So,

on h i s adv ice

I d i d c o n -

t a c t

Ma r i t a

Lorens .

So, when

I

c a l l e d Ma r i t a , Ma r i t a

was

s u ~ p r i s e t h a t

I

spoke w i t h her .

I

sa id , M a r i t a ,

t h i s i s Fra nk .

Sh

Y

Oh, h

sa

s , ow a re you?

s a y s ,

Fine .

She s a y s , ' 'Are you

mad

a t me?''

I

says , No.

Why

should

I be

mad a t you?

We've

been f r i e n d s

f o r

y e a r s .

Q Isn t it t r u e t h a t you

were

more t ha n

f r i e n d s wi th he r a t

var i ous

t imes and p l a c e s ?

A

Well , you 've g o t t a

unde r s t a nd

t h a t

t h e r e has

been a pe r iod o f ye a r s I

h a v e n ' t

seen Ma r i t a

so I never

knew what

s h e ' s

done , what she has been

i nvo lved

i n .

As

a

m a t t e r

o f

f a c t , she d id have some

prob lems

in New

York.

I

found o u t t h a t she was

working undercover

fo r ,

you know, t he p o l i c e d e p a r t -

ment; t h a t one o f her boy f r i e n d s ,

whom

she

was

i nvo lved wi t h , was t r y i n g

to

b la c km a i l he r

and

she

s ho t

him.

Q

Dead?

A

No.

She

s ho t

him, and

s h e ' s go t a

m ir ro r i n

her bedroom

wi th

a

b u l l e t ho le t h e r e .

And because one t ime when

I

was up

G



· · ·. ·

t he re I

says , "Howcome you

d o n ' t

t ake

c a r e

o f t he

b u l l e t

hole? and she says ,

Well , I

l i k e to keep it

as

a memento",

you know; and she sho t t he

guy

N a t u r a l l y , t he guy isn t

go ing

to go

ahead and t u rn her over to the po l i ce .

Now, she

was

t e l l i n g me

about

h i s

t h r e a t s ,

abou t

how

he had t h r ea t ened

to

kill h e r ,

to

do harm to

her k ids

- -

Q o you know t he name o f her boy f r i end?

No, I

d o n ' t .

Q

D i d n ' t

you

l a t e r

make

t hos a c c u s a t i o n s

abou t her?

Wel l , l e t me go ahead, you know, g e t

t hese t h i ngs here - -

Q

You

tell

your

s t o r y .

Perhaps

it w i l l

t ake

ca re of t h r ee pages

o f

t e s t im ony .

True .

So she

asked

me, she says , Fra nk , I

need your he l p .

What can I do?

I

have to work

fo r

t hese people ' '

and

she

named

the peop le which

I

d o n ' t

t h i nk I should go ahead and ment ion , I p r e f e r t h a t sh

name them,

"and

t h i s o t h e r group

of people

and t h i s

o t h e r

group o f peop l e , and it seems

t h a t

they c a n ' t d

any th ing

to he lp me p r o t e c t

myse l f a g a i n s t

t h i s pa r t y

and

I 'm

a f r a i d .

;



I says ,

Well , t e l l you what I ll do" .

So, I went to New York - - now, t h i s i s befo re Mar i t a

had

made

t he se accusa t ions

in the pape r , I 'm

go ing

back to when she

had

a l l t he se problems - - I went to

New

York

a t one

t ime

to do something

on

bus ines s and

I n a t u r a l l y s topped in

to

see he r and I

took

a t ape

conve r sa t ion of Ma r i t a

Lorens ,

between her

and

myse l f

a t the h o te l

where

I was s tay ing a t , and I t u rned

t h i

t ape

over

t o t he Cen t ra l I n t e l l i g e n c e Commit tee .

Thi

i s

Senators

Bake r ' s ,

of

Cent ra l

I n t e l l i g e n c e

Commit-

t e e .

I

tu rned

it

over

to him

which t hey may

have it, they have it

documented,

and

I , a l s o ,

asked

him - - now, when I was with Mar i ta t h a t

day and she

t o l d

m

t he s to ry

and I

t aped

t h i s

c o n v e r s a t i o n about

the problems

t ha t

she was having by t h i s

man h e re ,

t h i s

man t h a t was th rea ten ing he r ,

because she had

some documents

in her

posses s ion

which

she t u r n e d

over

to me,

and

I

immedia te ly

f l ew to

Washington,

D.

c. and

t u rned

them over

to the

Sec re t Serv ice I n t e l -

l i gence

Committee.

These

a r e

documents

o f

a

f o r e i g n

i n t e l l i g e n c e

mat t e r

(At t h i s po in t t he r e was an

i n t e r r u p -

t i o n o f t r a f f i c

n o i s e s

and

c o n v e r s a t i o

between

the

defendan t and h is

counse l .



THE DEPONENT:

Now I to ld her - - I

c a l l e d from her t e l ephone - - which should

be

a

r eco rd

of

- - I c a l l e d

Sena t o r

Baker s

o f f i c e

and

spoke to

Mr. Howard

Levinwor th

(phonet i c )

and

exp l a i ned to

him

howcome t h i s

g i r l here

had worked fo r t h e s e , you

know

f e d e ra l o rg a n i z a t i o n s and, because

of

w h a t s

happen-

ing ,

pe r t a i n i ng

to what

documents

I had t h a t I was

going

to

t u rn

over to them,

why

t hey wo u l dn t g ive

h

pro tec t ion?

Fine , he says ,

Frank,

a re you

coming

t h i s

way?

' 'Yes,

I m

l e a v in g ,

I m

coming

down

to se

Y ll

•

Well , I

t u rned over a l l of t h i s

s t u f f

to

Helen

Levinworth

(phonet i c ) with the

hope

t h a t

th

Senate I n t e l l i gence

Commit tee

would he lp pu t a

guard

on

her to pr o t ec t

her aga i ns t the

t h r e a t s she was

ge t t i ng , a g a in s t t h i s man whom she shot - - no t t h a t

she missed - -

t h a t

she sho t .

Q

Let

me j u s t ask you one q u e s t i o n

here

be fo re we go any f u r t h e r .

MR.

RUBIN:

Wait

a

minute .

I

would

l i k e him to

comple te

h is answer be fo re - -

MR. FRIEDMAN:

I was

wonder ing

how A.

J .

Weberman

consp i red w i th o t h e r s .

MR. RUBIN:

Well , he

i s

l ead ing up to

29



t h a t , I m su re .

MR FRI ED: IAN:

Fi ne .

T h a t s

squared

away.

I

apologize

for

i n t e r r u p t i n g .

THE

DEPONENT: Because ,

you know,

a l l

the t h r e a t s

t h a t

she was c la iming

and so f o r t h , I m

t r y i ng

to ge t up to

the

th ing .

Now, what happened

a f t e r t h a t ,

between

the Senate

I n t e l l i g e n c e Committee,

by t r y i ng t o o b t a i

pr o t ec t i on , you know, for Mar i ta Lorens ,

i s

between

them because I immedia te ly

d i s a s s oc i a t ed

myse l f ,

be

cause

I

n a t u r a l l y f e l t

t

pe r ta ined to n a t i o n a l secu

r i t y bus i ness t h a t she , you know,

was

i nvo l ved

i n .

Now,

t h i s i s

what I wanted

to

c l e a r up

on anyth ing t h a t she has s t a t ed pe r t a i n i ng to me abou

the

t h r e a t s ,

t ha t t he

b u l l e t

hole t h a t was,

you

know,

in t h e r e , in her

window,

in

her bedroom and

so

f o r t h ,

I wanted to c l e a r t h a t

up; p l us

the f ac t t h a t Mar i t a

had a number of t imes cal led my a t t o rn e y in Miami,

F l o r i da , asking for me and fo r my he lp in t r y i n g

to

he lp her

with a l l t he problems t ha t she d id have .

Now,

here

we

go

over

a

p e r i o d

o f

t ime

w e l l , I h a v e n t been up to New York o r any th ing

l i k e

t h a t - - then t h i s t h ing comes

out

in t he

paper

and I

spoke

to Mari ta and I t o ld her

why,

and so f o r t h , and

what happened, and she mainta ined

to

me and

she

did

3 0



mention to me i n conve r sa t ion t h a t Weberman was

one

o f

the pe rsons

t h a t

was

behind t he p re s su re

t ha t she

had

a f t e r

she put

a l l

the

s t u f f in t he

paper .

And,

sa id ,

Well ,

who

a re t he

o th e r

people? She

says ,

I c a n ' t

t ll

you a t t he presen t

t ime , bu t ge t back with

me .

Fi ne .

immedia te ly

- -

now,

when

c a l l e d he r , remember,

Gaeton

Fonz i

knew o f

eve ry

phone

c a l l

t ha t

had made

with

Mar i t a ,

because

would no t

t a lk to Mar i ta

un le s s Fonzi knew

t h a t was speaking

to

Mari ta .

Then a

s e r i e s

o f c a l l s aga in , ano the r

c a l l ,

and

t r i e d

to

go

ahead

and

aga in a sk

M a r i t a ,

' 'Mar i ta , howcome, you know, why

d o n ' t

you t ll me,

because

a t

the

p re s e n t

t ime

am

no t

f i n a n c i a l l y

a b l e

to come

up

to

New

York;

why d o n ' t

you t ll me, you

know,

because the peop le have been

She says ,

Well , I 'm sca red I 'm going

to

be subpoenaed .

So, says , ' 'You d o n ' t have to

be

scared

because Fonzi

t o l d me

you ' r e no t

going to be

subpoenaed any

p la c e , so

d o n ' t be worr i ed about

any

subpoena ' ' , you know.

She

says , Well , you know t he peop le on

the

book' '

and I 'm not sure whether

she

meant

Coup

d 'Eta t · •

o r not ;

but

she says ,

YO'.l

know the peop le

31



in t he book

were behind

me and

I 'm

g e t t i n g a

l o t

o f

p r e s s u r e .

Wel l I 'm s u re a

l o t

of t he p r e s s u r e

i s , from

what

she sa id

we l l ,

I d o n ' t know I c a n ' t

pu t t h a t

in her l i n e s ,

so I c a n ' t go

i n to t h a t .

Anyway

t h i s i s t h e t h i n g s t h a t

she

ha

t o l d

me abou t p a r t o f t he

p r e s s u r e s and

she

wanted

me

to

come

to New York and she s a y s , I f you d o n ' t have

t he funds

to

come up

here ,

I can come t h e r e o r meet

you

ha l fway ,

o r

I ll

tell

you

what

I ll

do:

I ll sen

you a pre pa id t i c k e t

and

you

come up

here

to

New York

and I ll tell you t he

whole

s t o r y .

I ll

tell

you

e v e r y t h i n g , who t he p re s s u re , t he pe op le ,

who t h e

peop le

a re behind

me in

p u t t i n g all

t h i s s t u f f

in

t he

newspapers .

Fine . So

t h e r e ,

t h i nk it

was t he

I

went up to

New

York.

I

g

3 1 s t , which was Hal low-een

Day. c a l l e d

her

MR

RUB

I l:

The 3 1 s t o f what?

THE DEPONENT:

O c t o b e r .

I went o v e r

t

a f r i e n d of m ine ' s

house ,

Frank Nelson ,

and

I c a l l e d

Ma r i t a

and

in

t a l k i n g with

M a r i t a ,

she s a y s , Well ,

I 'm go ing to

be

busy , c a l l me

l a t e r .

F i n e .

Now

whi le was

t h e r e

a t

Frank

N e l s o n

a pa r tm e n t ,

Jack Anderson c a l l e d

me

from Washington,

32



a .

c .

e

says , Frankie , w h a t r e

you doing in

New

York?

blah , b lah ,

b lah .

Evident ly he m u s t v e ca l l ed

my home and my wife

must ve

to ld him I was in New

York.

York.

This

i s

how he knew

where

to c o n t a c t

me

in

New

so I t o l d him I was up to see Mar i ta

because I spoke with seve ra l people

in

Washington

p e r t a in in g

to

t r y in g

to he lp Mar i ta in her

p a s t

problems.

And, ano t he r person who c a l l e d me from

Washington,

whom I saw

t h a t

day ,

was

a pe r s on

from

Midnight newspaper ,

Midnight

Globe, I b e l i e v e it was;

Malcolm Abrams, ano t he r person I spoke

w i th t h a t

day,

and he came

over

to me.

Another

person

t ha t

I

spoke

wi t h

t h a t

day

to l e t him know

t ha t

I was

in

town was Ste ve

Dunlevy (phone t i c ) .

L e t s see .

Who e l se?

And, I

b e l i e v e ,

Paul

Mesk i l l , I be l ieve I c a l l e d him to

l e t

him know,

a l s o

t ha t

I was t h e r e .

And befo re I

left

n a t u r a l l y Gaeton

Ponzi

knew I

was

coming to New York to speak

wi t h

Mari ta upon her

own r eques t , with

her sending me a

t i c k e t to

t a lk

with

he r .

So, anyway, I

be l i eve

I spoke to Mari ta

J



aga in t ha t

a f t e rnoon and t ha t n igh t

she

t o ld me to

come

over .

So

when

I

went over t ha t evening ,

I

g

the re

around

11:00 , 11 :30 ,

I

knocked

on

the door , th

door

opened and here a re

two

men with drawn guns

poin ted

a t

me and s a id , Who a re you?

Well , I got a little sca red , you

know

I

was

conce rned . I thought poss ib ly the se two peopl

were

pa r t of the people

who

had been ha ra s s ing Mari t

I

says ,

My name i s

Frank

S t u r g i s " .

They

s a id ,

Are you c a r ry in g a piece?

I says , No, I

d o n ' t ca r r y

a

weapon .

He says , Well ,

come

i n " .

we

came in - -

r a t h e r , I

came

in

- - an

immediate ly

they shook

m down the b e s t t hey

cou ld ,

with the guns po in t ing a t

me.

They says ,

' 'We're d e -

t e c t i ve s from the

New

York Po l ice Depar tment .

You' r

under

a r r e s t " .

I sa id ,

Under

a r r e s t For what?

They

sa id ,

"We' l l

tell you abou t it

ome on in .

so they

took me in and I d i d n ' t see

nobody

the re

but the two d e t e c t i v e s

Q Let m i n t e r r u p t you

one

moment.

A

Yes.

___________

34



Q You have

accused

A.

J . Weberman, t he

a u thor

o f

t he book, a

man

who has never been accused

of a cr ime o f v io lence , o f c o n s p i r i n g

to

kill you, o r

a t

l e a s t

Mr.

Rubin has

in

an Amended Compla in t .

I would l i k e

to

know what a c t , a c t i v i t

though , deed o r

o t he rwi se Mr.

Weberman commi t t ed in

t he f u r t h e r a n c e o f t h a t

a l l e g e d

c ons p i r a c y?

A You have

no t let

me f i n i s h .

Q

Cont inue .

A

p

to

t h a t

p o i n t t h e r e

I

d i d n ' t

know

t h a t

my life

was

i n j e opa rdy . Now I w i l l

tell you

what t he p o l i c e o f f i c e r s t o l d me.

I

came in .

I

had

to

t a ke e v e r y t h i n g

ou t o f my poc ke t s .

They

looked

t h rough my

b r i e f c a s e

so f o r t h . Sat

down.

I a s ke d , if

I 'm

a r r e s t e d ,

what

t h e c h a rg e s were? Well , w e ' l l go ahead and tell you

when we g e t down

to

t he p o l i c e s t a t io n .

' 'Now, Frank ,

y o u ' r e gonna have

to

t han

us because

we

saved

your life .

' 'You saved my l i f e ?

Why?

Do

you

know

t h a t

M a r i ta ' s

d a u g h t e r

w

o u t s i d e t h i s p la c e wi th

a

sho tgun r e a d y

to kill you?

I says , I d o n ' t b e l i e v e

it .

They says , ' 'Well , y e s , because

M a r i t a

c a l l e d us' '

- -

l i s t e n to t h i s now - -

and

t o l d us t h a

35



. · ·

· ~ ·

her

da ugh te r

was

downs ta i r s

with a sho tgun

w i t ing

k i l l

you,

Frank S t u r g i s ,

when

you walked in h e r e .

So when

we

go t t h i s c a l l from Mar i ta Lorens , we we

down

and a r r e s t e d

her daugh t e r .

Now

t he

s t o r i e

changes

around as we go

a l ong ,

from

t he

p o l i c e off

ce r s .

Q In o t h e r words ,

t he

p o l i c e o f f i c e r s

t he

v e r s i o n

t h e y

t o ld you?

A

Well , no , because

l a t e r

on

it

was

supposed ly t h a t the k id was a r r e s t e d w i th

a

2 2 -c a l

p i s t o l on her .

so if

t he

p o l i c e

o f f i c e r s a r r e s t e d

her da ugh te r

wi th a

sho tgun , howcome t he d a u g h t e r

a r r e s t e d

with a 2 2 - c a l i b r e

p i s t o l ?

be l y i n g t h e r e , you know.

Somebody s

g o t

Q Again , cou ld you be s p e c i f i c

a bou t

Mr. Weberman

d id in h i s a t t e m pt

to kill

you , o r c o

sp i racy?

A

Well , I 'm

t e l l i n g

you t h e s t o r y a b o

Mari ta , what she

t o l d

me t h a t some of

t he

pe op le

t

was beh ind h e r , t he

p r e s s u r e s

t h a t she

had

beh ind

in making the s to ry which l ed up t o he r

d a u g h t e r

a c t u a l l y be ing a r r e s t e d

fo r being o u t s id e

h e r a p a

ment

with a

2 2 -c a l i b r e

p i s t o l ,

can you

t ll

me? c

no t a l awyer .

I ' d l i k e to know these t h i n g s .

Q o

you

have

any ev idence o f t h e s e



·

a l l ega t i ons

o the r

than the t ape r eco rded conversa t i on

with Mar i ta Lorens?

A r d o n t have a

t ape

r eco rd ing a s

ev idence

of Mari ta Lorens .

She

has ,

whatever

she

has .

Q You

sa id

you j u s t gave t he

t ape

to

B a k e r s Commit tee?

A No, I gave two t apes to

Sena t o r

Baker s

Committee p e r t a in in g

t o . The

t ape

i s

in ques t ion

about

her

and

I .

Q

L e t s

t r y aga in .

You have accused

t h i s

man

with a s p e c i f i c word do you

unders tand

what t he

p l ead i ngs Mr. Rubin f i l e d ?

A r have no t accused Mr. Weberman o f

any-

th ing .

Q

Well ,

Mr.

Hunt s

a t t o rn e y ,

Mr.

Rubin , w

i s

a l so your

a t t o rn e y ,

accuses Mr. Weberman

o f the

fo l l ow ing words:

A Can you show m where t h a t i s ?

Q It s Paragraph 14.

A Reads Paragraph

14

o f t he

Compla in t . )

Q He i s supposed to be d e p r iv in g Hunt o f

a wi t ness

in h i s

trial

by consp i r ing

with

Mar i t a

Loren

to pay for your

t r i p

to New York;

okay?

Now where you were f a l s e l y a r r e s t e d an

where

Monica Mari ta Lorens , t he daugh t e r o f Mar i t a

---- --

37



Lorens i s runn ing

around with a gun t r y in g

to

k i l l

you.

What did Weberman do to

t r y

to h u r t

you?

A

Let m go

ahead and

say

t h i s

- -

let s

ge t

back

to the

s t a t emen t :

to consp i r e with one Mar i t a

Lorens to

i nduce

in paper

Now, I d o n t know

whe the r

Weberman gav

her

money

to

go

ahead

and

- -

a l l

I

know

i s

t h a t

Mari t

Lorens

sen t

m a

prepa id

t i c k e t .

Now where

she

got

t ha t

money

I

d o n t

know.

Q

o you have any ev idence t h a t t h i s man

conspi red to

v io l a t e

the

r i gh t s

o f E. Howard Hunt by

consp i r i ng to do away with you o r o the rwise keep you

from t e s t i f y i n g as a witness in Mr. H u n t s d e f e n s e ?

o

you have any evidence t h a t

Mr.

Weberman t h i s

gent leman

r i g h t here , did a n y t h i n g o f

t ha t

na t u re o r r e g a rd l e s s

- -

Paragraph 14 o f Mr.

Rubin s Compla in t?

A The on ly t h i ng I can say i s t h a t

Mari t

Lorens t o ld m

on

the t e lephone t h a t Weberman was

be-

hind

the

p r e s s u r e s in doing what she

had

done , you

know; t h a t s the only t h ing I know-

Q o you have any

t ape

reco rd ings with a

conversa t i on

with

Mari ta Lorens

where in she i n d i c a t e s

th a t

~ r

Weberman

put

her up

to

it

o r

put pres su re on

her

to do t hese e v i l deeds?

3



A No, I d o n ' t have.

Q o you

have any evidence

t h a t Mr.

weberman conspi red with Mar i ta Lorens on or be fo re

October

31s t ,

1977,

to

do

t he se th ings?

A

Only

what

Mari ta to ld me.

Q

Did

you consu l t

with

Mr. Rubin p r i o r to

the f i l i n g o f

t h i s

p a r t i c u l a r Amended Compla in t ,

which

was

about

a month ago?

A

Mr. Rubin has been aware of

my

a c t i v i -

t i e s

in

New York

because ,

you know, I have a New York

a t t o rn e y

who handled me

up t he r e .

N a tu ra l l y ,

when

I

r e tu rned here to Miami, Mr. Rubin - - in f a c t ,

he

i s

my

Miami a t t o rn e y - - I t o l d him what

happened

In New York

conce rn ing

Mari ta , and so fo r th .

Q

Did

you t ake a l i e d e t e c t o r t e s t about

these problems

with

Mari ta Lorens in New York?

A

Everyth ing p e r t a i n i n g to the a s s a s -

s ina t i on , conspi racy ,

whether

I

was

in Dal l a s t h a t

day,

whether

I was a gunman, whether I

was

in a

c on-

sp i racy to k i l l

Pres iden t

Kennedy, whether or no t

Mari ta

Lorens

was,

with

the

accusa t ions

she

made,

whether

she was

t e l l i n g

the t r u t h

or no t .

I passed t

100

- -

Q Could I ask you - -

I

passed

t

100 .

39



Q

Could I ask

you

to make t h a t a v a i l a b l e

to us ,

the

r e s u l t s o f

t h a t l i e

d e t e c t o r t e s t ?

I would have to c o n t a c t my New York

a t t o r n e y

and

t ll

him.

As

f a r

as I m

c o n c e r n e d ,

I

ca

f ind no

problem.

Q

o you

posses s

any

i n f o r m a t i o n

on

t he

fo l lowing

people a r e

agen t s

o f any fo r e ign government

t o - w i t :

Abbey

Hoffman

Dick

Gregory

Mort Sah l

Sena to r

McGovern

Congressman Henry

Gonzalez

Joseph Okpaku ( the p u b l i s h e r

P h i l i p Agee

o f t h i s

book

o you

have

any i n fo rma t ion t h a t any o f t he s e p e o p l e

a re

fo re ign agen t s ?

No.

Q o you know o f any o t h e r

a s s a s s i n a t i o n

p l o t s Mr. Weberman was

invo lved

in

t h a t

would

a f f e c t

you,

o the r

t han t he

one j u s t

spoken

of?

No.

Q o you remember a photo t aken on J anua r

15,

1959,

by

UPI,

I

assume

in

Cuba, where

you

were

s t and ing

on top o f

a

mass ive gra ve o f s i x t y B a t i s t i a -

nos who had

been

execu t ed by C as t r o?

R igh t .

Q Could

you

e x p l a i n why

you posed

fo r

40



p a r t i c u l a r

photograph?

Yes.

Andrew St .

George,

who

was

a

r epo r t e r -pho tog raphe r

- - I d o n ' t

know

a t t h a t

t ime

who he

worked for

- - but I

had

a t r a i n i n g camp

r i g h t

ou t s ide of San t i ago , and when I

came

i n to town I

b e-

l i e v e Andrew St . George

met

me a t

the

Casa Grande

Hote l and he asked

me

i f the re was

t he

p o s s i b i l i t y

because h is

i n fo rma t i on was t h a t

Raul

Cas t ro was

execut ing

some p r i s o n e r s

- -

and he asked

me

whether

o r not

I

cou ld ge t p o s i t i o n for

him to

wi tness and

pho tograph ,

you know, the

e x e c u t i o n .

I

sa id ,

Well , I d o n ' t know; bu t I ll

go ahead and t r y and see i f I

can

ge t you t h a t p e r -

r ss o

So, what happened

i s

t h a t , I d o n ' t

remember which

commander

f r i e n d o f

mine

I went to

see

but he says ,

Yes,

c e r t a i n l y . o up and see .

Theres

no more

execu t ions ,

t h e y ' r e

all

f i n i s hed ; bu t I ll

send

an o f f i c e r

with

you

and I ll

show

you

where

the

execu t i ons were a t .

So I took Andrew St . George wi t h

t h i s

o f f i c e r and mysel

to t he

s i t e

where t he

execu t ions ,

you

know, were, or

did

happen, and

Andrew

says , Look

; ~ · ~ e an American, I ' d l i k e you to go ahead and

t ake



So I

says , f i ne ,

I see no problem

t h e r e .

And

t h i s i s how Andrew S t . George took

me,

t ook

a

p i c t u r e of

me s t a n d i n g

over t he g ra v e s

o f

t h e s

X

amount

o f peop le who

were e xe c u te d .

Q

Did

you t r a v e l from Miami to D a l l a s ,

Texas ,

in 1963, by au tomobi l e wi th a

s e t

o f

o l d

c l o t h e s i n t he back s e a t ?

o November, 1963?

With a s e t o f o l d

c l o t h e s

i n t he

back

s e a t ?

No.

Let

me

add someth ing

t h e r e .

L e t s

fac

it.

I d o n t know what i s in M a r it a s mind; b u t I d id

f i nd

o u t whi le

I was

up in

New York,

a f t e r

I

g o t

ou t

o f jail,

t h a t Mari t a

was

in

t he

proc e s s

o f do ing a

book.

She was ,

a l s o , i n t he

p r o c e s s

o f do ing

a

movie

and

she

r ece i ved

s e v e ra l t housands

o f d o l l a r

in advance

and t he

peop le who

were su p p o se d l y

go ing

to

be

doing t he book, going

to

be

t he

w r i t e r s o f

t he

book

- -

which she t o l d me - - was Paul

Mesk i l l

and he

sa id t h i s ,

to

me, q u o t e : As soon as

I

found o u t

t h

Weberman has been in t ouch and has been a s s o c i a t e d

w i t h

Mar i t a Lorens , I c a l l e d my

a g e n t and s a y s ,

I

w i l l no t be t he w r i t e r o f her b o o k . This i s what

Paul Me s k i l l

t o l d me.

Q Are you

aware

t h a t Ma r i t a Lorens

t e s t i



-

f ied in New York under oa t h t ha t you

were in

f a c t

involved in a

p lo t

- -

or

a t

l e a s t a consp i r acy - -

with

a group

of

people to t r a v e l f rom Miami t o Da l l a s?

A

Well , she

made those

s t a t emen t s

on

t e l e v i s ion

and in the newspapers .

Q She

a l s o

made them under oa th in f r o n t

o f a f e e r ~ l cour t r e p o r t e r .

A Let

her

t ake a po lygra ph .

MR

RUBIN: And

we

i n t end t o

seek con-

tempt

c i t a t i o n

befo re t he

Fede ra l

Judge

fo r t hose

s t a t emen t s

and

I am p u t t i n g

it

on the

r eco rd

r i g h t now

THE

DEPONENT:

Let

me

say t h i s , a l s o

MR RUBIN:

Frank, t h a t s

enough.

T h a t s enough.

Q

By Mr. Fr iedman

Did

the

D a l l a s

Pol i ce

Department i n t e r r o g a t e you on

November 22,

Never .

19 6 3

Q

Were you w i th Howard Hunt

on

November

2 2

1963?

I d o n t r e c a l l .

No.

Q

Yes

r No

?

A No.

I f I d o n t r e c a l l ,

why

s hou ld I

s y Yes

or No

?

I d o n t

r e c a l l

it.

Q Were you involved in a

c o n s p i r a c y

to

k i l l

Pres iden t Kennedy?



A

Never in my l i f e . That i s p a r t o f the

polygraph .

The

Uni ted

S ta t e s Government knows where

I was on November 22

1963.

They

know

where

Lee

Harvey Oswald was th ree weeks to the day o f

t he

a s s a s s i n a t i o n , working a t

the

book depos i to ry .

There

i s wi tnesses t h a t knew h i s whereabouts every day

t h r e

weeks

be fo re .

As

f a r

as I 'm conce rned ,

I d o n ' t see

how in the

he l l Lee

Harvey

Oswald

could

be

in

Miami

r i d in g

with

Mari ta Lorens

to

D a l l a s , Texas , who she

c a l l s Oswald

i s

t he b igges t f a b r i c a t i o n o f a l i e sh

ever

sa id

in

her l i f e .

I

d o n ' t know

how

she could do it.

Le

her

take

a

polygraph .

Q Would you mind i f t h i s

t ape i s

s ubm i t

t ed

for ana l ys i s v ia psycho log ica l s t r e s s eva lua t ion

Cer ta in ly

Don ' t

mind it a t

a l l

Th

United

S t a t e s

Government has a l l t h i s i n fo rma t ion

fo

yea r s .

MR

RUBIN:

What t ape?

MR FRIEDMAN:

The t ape o f t h i s

conve rsa t ion .

MR

RUBIN:

This t ape

i s no t

p a r t o f

t h i s d e p o s i t i o n ,

to

my knowledge .

There

i s

an o f f i c i a l c o u r t r e p o r t e r

- - - - - - - - - - - - -



- - - -

here and

the

purpose o f

her t ape r eco rde r

i s

i f sh

i s ope ra t ing

one - -

i s

to

back

up

her

notes and

t h a t s

it.

Any

o t h e r use

of t hose - -

MR. FRIEDMAN:

You

o b je c t to t he use o

t h i s

tape?

MR RUBIN:

I am a t t o rn e y fo r Howard

Hunt here .

I am,

a l s o

a t t o rn e y for

Frank S t u r g i s on

o the r

mat te r s .

It i s

improper

to

use

any t ape

r e c o r d

ing

o f a depos i t i on fo r

any t h i ng

o t h e r

than to

r e c o r d

on

paper what was s a i d .

MR

FRIEDMAN:

w i l l ge t it p a s t the judge .

I f you

ob j ec t to

it we

11R RUBIN:

You b e t t e r ask t he

judge .

I

ob j ec t .

Q (By 11r. Friedman)

Do

you

remember

the

name of

the

movie

company where in Mari ta

Lorens

was

o f f e r e d

thousands o f d o l l a r s

fo r

her s e rv i c e s ?

A was t o l d by

11r. Arbenz up

in New

York. As a

mat t e r

o f f a c t he

wanted

me to

s i gn

a

r e l e a s e which r e f u s e d

p e r t a i n i n g to Ma r i t a

Lorens

a manusc r ip t or something

Mari ta

Lorens gave him o r

h a s .

r e fused to s i gn a

r e l e a s e

no t

knowing

what

.VOuld b e i n it.



Q Did you

know

Howard Hunt in 1963?

L e t

me

say

t h i s here .

I

have worked

in

the

i n t e l l i g e n c e f i e l d

o f f

and

on for yea r s

and

t he re

i s compar tmen ta t ion w i th peop le t h a t you work

w i t h

d i r e c t l y .

I

d o n t r e c a l l e v e r meet ing E. Howard

Hunt

p e r s o n a l l y .

I d o n t

r e c a l l meet ing Howard Hunt .

Q In 1963?

In 1963.

The

o n l y

t h i ng

t h a t

I

r e c a l l

and I m no t even s u re --

and

t h i s i s on

r e c o r d w i t h

t he Sena te Waterga te Commit tee t h a t t h e r e i s a

p o s s i b i l i t y t h a t I migh t have run a c r o s s Howard

in

1971, but fo r s u re in 7 2 , because of Wa te rga t e , t h a t

I had d i r e c t c o n t a c t w i t h Howard. And that s t h e

on ly t h i ng I r e c a l l

p e r t a i n i n g

to Howard Hunt .

Q Did you e ve r t a ke Mari t a

Lorens

to a

Safe House where Howard

Hunt

was

p r e s e n t ?

In 1963?

Never Never in my life o r h e r s .

i ' iever.

Q Did

you

e ve r g i v e

M a r i t a Lorens

t he

address

544 Camp S t r e e t , New O r l e a n s?

Never .

Q

I

submi t to

you,

sir,

a

copy

which

i s

no t an o f f i c i a l copy

o f a

d e p o s i t i o n

t h a t i s in t he

proc e s s of being

typed

and t h i s would

be

Ma r i t a Loren



Te l l

me whether

o r

not

y u o b j e c t to

the p re s e n t a t i o n of t h i s to r e f r e s h

your

r e c o l l e c t i o n

and ask

you whether or no t E. Howard

Hunt

544 camp

S t r e e t , which appea rs t he r e i n , was the

name

and

address

g iven

by you to Mar i ta

Lorens

as

she

t e s t i f i e

under

oa th?

She could go ahead

and copy t h a t

ou t o

any book.

Q

o

you

deny

g i v i ng

her

t h a t

address?

Beg pardon?

I

deny

ever g iv ing

her

t ha t ; c e r t a i n l y .

Q What was the name you were

born

with?

Frank Angelo F i o r i n i , F - i - o - r - i - n - i .

Q Was

t ha t

your f a t h e r s name?

No

t ha t was

my

g r a n d f a t h e r s

name.

My

f a t h e r s

name was Angelo Anthony F i o r i n i .

Q What name

did

you

use as

your

name

dur ing

your

l i f e ?

A

I have used a

number

of names.

My

nam

was l e g a l l y changed th rough the

c o u r t s

when my mother

remarr i ed

a S tu rg i s

and

n a t u r a l l y , my name

was

l e g a

ly changed

in N or fo lk ,

V i r g i n i a ,

from

- - it s

r e c o rde

in

the c o u r t s

it was changed from

Frank

Angelo

F i o r i n i to Frank

J

While

you

were

a young man?

.



~

----

A

Yes.

Q

Did

you

eve r

work

as

a

bar t ende r?

A

Oh

yes , s i r .

Q

Did you

eve r

work as

a

s o l d i e r

o f

for tune?

A what do you c l a s s s o ld i e r o f fo r tune

Q A mercenary?

A No I never have been a

mercenary

in

my l i f e .

I have worked over a per i od

o f yea r s

wi t h

I s r a e l i I n t e l l i g e n c e

in

Europe. All r i gh t ? Over a

per iod of yea rs , because o f my sympath ies w i th a youn

l ady t ha t I met when I was with Arnold S e c u r i t y

Agenc

when

I

was

se rv i ng with the

Uni t ed

S t a t e s

Army.

I

have

by

the

way

t h r ee

Honorable

Discharges ;

and

- -

MR

RUBIN:

From what se rv ice?

THE DEPONENT:

Of the

Uni t ed

S t a t e s

Marine Corp Uni ted

S t a t e s

Navy and

Uni t ed

S t a t e s

Army.

And

then , a f t e r t he war

was

o v e r , t he

second

World

War

was

over

wi t h ,

I

met

a

Cuban

l ady

marr ied in to my fami ly which got me c l o s e l y

a s s o c i a t e

with the Cuban e x i l e s in t h a t

p a r t i c u l a r

t i me , going

back

many years ago, aga i ns t B a t i s t a .

And

because

my sympath ies a re aga i ns t

48



I

I

I

I

I

I

Right

Wing d i c t a t o r s h i p s and, a l so , Lef t Wing d i c t a t o r

\

s h i p s ,

I

got

invo lved

in

the Cuban

underground which

even tua l ly

I went

to Cuba,

j o i n i n g t he

Cast ro

fo rces .

At the same

t ime , whi le

I was

in

Cuba, I

was r e c r u i t e d

by t he s t a t i o n ,

CIA s t a t i o n

c h i e f in Sant iago

de Cuba

to

spy fo r the Uni ted

S t a t e s Government .

(All

t h roughou t t he d e p o s i t i o n

Mr.

Weberman,

one

o f

t he

defendan ts

in

t h i s

l a w s u i t ,

kep t i n s t r u c t i n g

h i s

a t to rney

on t he que s t i ons he

wanted

to be asked of the deponen t . )

MR

RUBIN:

I have no o b j e c t i o n

if you

want

to

a s s o c i a t e Mr. Weberman

as co-counse l and let

him ask h i s ques t ions

and

let s

g e t

it

over

wi th .

Q

(By

Mr.

Friedman)

Do

you

remember

t he

occupa t ions you

main ta ined

between 1940

and 1950?

A

1940 tO I 50?

Oh, my goodness

I

40

tO

50?

Yes,

I

was in

the

s e rv i c e w i th t h ree

Honorable

Discharges du r ing this

approximate per iod o f t i m e .

Q Do you c ons i de r yourse l f o r hold your -

s e l f ou t

as

a

gambler?

A

I am not a

gambler .

I

d o n t

gamble

and I d o n t dr i nk .

Would you

b e l i e v e ,

I m a t e e -

t o t a l e r ?

I d o n t dr i nk be e r .

Would

y u b e l i e v e t h a t

I m I t a l i a n and I

d o n t

d

r i n

k wine?

-----

----- ---- -------------------------



You

know,

and

if I hadn t marr i ed t h i s

young

l ady in Europe who, my as soc ia t ion wi t h

her i s

r e a l l y i n t e l l i g e n c e ,

I probably

would

have

been an

I t a l i a n Jew. Who knows?

But ,

I

d o n t gamble.

d o n t gamble

and d o n t dr i nk . smoke qu i t e a

b i t .

Q Did

Howard

Hunt

give names,

code names

to persons du r i ng

the Watergate?

A

had seve ra l

code

names.

One

of

them

Edward Hamil ton. d o n t th ink

look

l i k e a

Hamil to

but t ha t was one o f my code names.

Q Do

you

remember r ead i ng a

book

by

Howard Hunt known o f a s

Bimini Run ?

A have never read

t h a t book,

UT

someo

did

d iscus s

t h i s

book

with

me.

As

a

mat te r o f

f a c t ,

dur i ng the Watergate i n v e s t i g a t i o n ,

was ques t ioned

about

t ha t book.

about .

was

ques t ioned .

T h a t s how

it

ca

Q This cha r ac t e r

in t h a t book, known

as

Hank S t u r g i s , who

seems

to

fo l l ow

your

own

h i s t o r y

to

a

gre a t ex t en t .

A

Ri gh t .

My wife t h in k s t h a t , too .

I

could be you.

Q Do you b e l i e v e

t h a t

Mr. Hunt

modeled

hi s book

a f t e r your

exp l o i t s ?

---- -------------------

50



- · - - - - -

I d o n t see how he

could .

He

d i d n t

know

me

a t

the t ime,

a t t h a t p a r t i c u l a r t ime

when

he

wrote

the book. I d o n t know when he

wrote t he

book.

Q o you remember

speaking

to

Andrew

St .

George aboU:

the

Bay

o f Pigs7

A

Oh

t h a t s so many yea r s ago.

It s

pos s i b l e .

It s p o s s ib l e I spoke

with him.

Q Did you

a r range fo r

t r a i n i n g bases

in

Guatemala for the

2506 Brigade?

A I

went

to Guatemala w i th

Diaz

Lanz to

speak with the p re s id e n t about

bases

in Guatemala . I

was

t he re p e r s o n a l l y ;

yes .

Q

o you

remember

t e l l i n g Andrew St .

George t h a t you worked wi th Howard

Hunt

on

t he

Bay of

Pigs Invas ion?

A Andrew may ge t h i s th ings a

little

b i t

mixed up. Now

unders tand

one t h in g :

Before

t he Bay

of

Pigs Invas ion , I was working in a d i f f e r e n t

s ec t o r

because E. Howard Hunt was a p o l i t i c a l

o f f i c e r

and I

was

not

a s s o c i a t e d

with

the

p o l i t i c a l

end

of

t he Bay

of Pigs Invas ion .

Q

Did you say t h a t

to

Andrew

St . George?

A No and

i f

Andrew sa id t h a t , he

i s

ly ing .

Q And i f

Mari ta says it,

she

i s l y i ng ,

Sl



up w ~ And•ew oayo, then

too?

I f

she p icked

it s

not so .

MR

RUBIN:

They

a re ly ing

j u s t

l i k e

Mr.

Weberman

did in the

book.

The

whole book

i s

a li

and we w i l l prove

it

in

cour t .

MR

FRIEDMAN: All

r i g h t . L e t s go

to

trial.

MR

RUBIN:

L e t s

skp a l l

o f t he p r e l i

mi nar i e s

and

let s

g e t r i g h t

to - -

Q

By

Mr.

Fr iedman)

Do

you remember

the

A l b a n ~ n Code Mission?

~ o

At

t h i s

po i n t , t he de fendan t

Weberman

again

ke p t w h i s pe r ing

with h is counse l . )

Q

By Mr. Fr iedman)

Do you have a

p o l i t i c a l b e l i e f

t h a t

i s a n t a g o n i s t i c toward

t:fte

Right

wing d i c t a t o r s h i p s ?

A I

do not be l ieve

in Right Wing o r L e f t

Wing d i c t a t o r s h i p s .

This i s p a r t o f my

t r a i n i n g

in

t h i s

coun t ry , p a r t of

the

t r a i n i n g t h a t I

have

had

s i nce

I

was

a young

fe l low.

I

d o n t

l i k e

Right

Wing

o r Lef t Wing d i c t a t o r s h i p s .

O Yet

you

mai n t a i n a

c l o s e

r e l a t i o n s h i p

52



with

Mr.

Somoza

o f Nicaragua?

No,

I have not main ta ined a

c l os e r e l a

t i ons h i p .

have

met

Mr.

Somoza

once , p o s s i b l y

two

t imes

in

my life

am aga i ns t Right and L ef t Wing

d i c t a t o r s h i p s .

Both a re

in

the wrong.

They d o n t

so lve

any t h i ng fo r t he peop l e .

The

proof

of it

was

was a g a i n s t the

Right

Wing

d i c t a t o r s h i p in Cuba aga i ns t B a t i s t a , and

tu rned

aga i ns t

Cast ro

when he go t to be a Communist

d ic t a t o r .

Q o you remember

o f f e r i n g

Mar i t a Lorens

a f ree

t r i p

to England to work on

the

Angolan problem

Yes.

Q

Was

t h a t j u s t befo re she p re s s e d

cha rges aga i ns t

you?

Oh, t h a t s months, b e l i e v e months

be fo re . That

was

l a s t summer,

of

77 , when

I

was in

New York.

Q Have you accused Mr. A. J

Weberman

o f

be ing an agent of a fo re ign government?

I have never accused him o f be i ng an

agen t

o f

a

fo re ign government .

Q

Did

you eve r give a

s t o r y

to

the

~ t i o n l S t a r when the Communist Cubans

s e t

up a g i a n

4



Lazer Beam with the he lp

o f

the Sov ie t s

t h a t

would

some

day

be used

aga i ns t

the Uni ted S ta t e s ?

C er t a i n l y .

Q You d i d

give

them t h a t

s to ry?

Sure .

Q What was the source of

your

i n fo rma t ion

The source

o f my

in format ion?

Q

I f it may be d i s c lo s e d . I f it may n o t -

No,

it

c o u l d n t

be

d i s c l o s ed .

Q

Can you

give

me

a reason

fo r its

non-

d i s c l o s u r e , i s

it

na t i ona l s ecu r i t y or a c o n f i d e n t i a l

source?

I

would

say conf i den t i a l

s o u rc e s , b e -

cause I

am a

newspaperman.

Q

o you b e l i e v e

those

sources to

be

r e -

l i a b l e ?

I b e l i e v e them to be ve ry , v e r y reli

ab le .

Q Did

you

eve r accuse

the

Reds

fo r

f rami ng you fo r the

Kennedy

as s a s s i na t i on?

Have I eve r accused t he Reds ?

Q

To-wi t :

I assume t he Communists?

I say

t h a t

t h e r e s e lements in t h i s

coun t ry who a re t r y i ng to use me to

d iv id e t he

peop l e s t h i nking i n t h i s co un t r y and

the t r u e ~ c t s



-

governments ;

yes .

Q And

the government t h a t you

conspi red

to ove r throw,

in

e f f e c t

in

Guatemala

would you

l abe

t h a t

government t ha t you

s t a r t e d to over throw

a

demo

c r a t i c

government

or

a

Lef t Wing

d i c t a t o r s h i p ?

A I d o n t know what government a t

t h a t

p a r t i c u l a r

t ime was t he re .

Q The Arbenz

government .

A d o n t know.

Q That you

were c o n s p i r i n g

to over throw?

A When

was in consp i racy to go ahead

and over th row

c e r t a i n

governments a t t hose p a r t i c u l a

t imes the government knew t h a t was involved

in

t h i s

conspi racy ,

and

so

fo r th , and

knew

the

e l emen t s

s u r -

rounding

m t ha t was

involved

in

t h i s c o n s p i r a c y .

So r e a l l y c o u l d n t go

i n t o d e t a i l

whether

they

were

democra t ic governments o r what -have -

you

The government has t h a t i n fo rma t i on and would

t h ink t ha t t h i s would be c l a s s i f i e d i n fo rm a t io n .

Q Were you involved

in

Opera t i on 4 0 s

a s s a s s i n a t i o n sec t ion?

A was c l os e l y as soc ia ted with

t he

head

of Opera t ion 40.

Q Did you t ll Michael Canf i e l d

t ha t ?

A Yes.

- - - - - - - - - - - · - - - - · - -



Q

Did you unde r s t and t h a t Opera t ion 40

conta ined

an as sa s s i na t i on s e c t i on?

A Opera t ion

40

con s i s t s

of

a

bunch o f

Cuban o f f i c e r s

some

o f whom I have been f ami l i a r wi th

some a re

my f r i ends and t h e i r j ob

t r a i n i ng

by t he

Uni ted

S ta t e s Government

were t h i s :

When the Brigade

l anded in

Cuba

Opera t ion

40

was to

fo l low.

The o f f i -

ce rs involved in t h i s ope ra t i on were to make con t ac t

with

Cuban

e lements

i n s id e o f Cuba both

po l i t i c a l

mi l i t a r y and so f o r t h who

would

g ive a s s i s t a nc e to

the

Brigade and to

the

underground because

Opera t ion

40

was

an

i n t e l l i g enc e o rgan i z a t i on who had

t h i s con-

t a c t in Cuba.

So na t u r a l l y in

o rde r

to make

t he

i nvas ion

succe s s f u l

you had to co -o rd ina t e t he a c t i v i -

t i e s

o f the

Brigade

and a l s o

o f

t he he lp

t h a t it

could r ece ive from both the po l i t i c a l and t he mi l i t a r y

e lemen t s

t h a t were in

Cuba

to a s s i s t you

know in

the

invas ion ;

and

i f necessa ry if an a s s a s s i n a t i on had to

be pa r t o f it na t u r a l l y it

would

be pa r t o f it.

Q Did

you

tell

Michael Canf i e ld t h a t

you

were approached by

Opera t ion

40

people

to commit

a

domest ic a s s a s s in a t i on?

A

Never

Opera t ion

40

no.

Q o

you remember

the

names o f Manuel

57



Artfme, t he se

names

being

as soc ia ted with Opera t ion

40;

do you

remember any of

t he se people?

second.

MR WEBERMAN

Excuse

me for one

Whereupon,

the defendant Weberman con

f e r r e d

with h is

counse l . )

Q By

Mr.

Friedman) Did

you ever tell

Michael Canf i e ld t h a t you were

approached by ANYONE to

commit

a

domest ic as s a s s i na t i on?

A

Poss ib ly .

I

was

approached

by

an

agen t

of

Cent ra l


Agency to

do

a

domest ic

a s s a s

s ina t ion

and I spoke

o f

t h i s to the

In t e l l i ge nc e

Commit tee .

Q Do you

rem

embe r whose

a s s a s s ina t ion

was

p l o t t e d

and

who

was

it

asked

yo

u

to

p lo t

i t ?

A I m s o r r y ,

I

cannot g ive you

t he

a g e n t

name.

The

gove

rnment has

the

name.

Q Or the person who was the s ub j ec t o f

the as s a s s i na t i on?

A

No,

because

the

person

d i d n t

tell me

the - -

was the person John

F

Kennedy?

A

No.

The

pa r t y

d i d n t tell me. So if

t he p

a r t y

d id n t tell me, I wouldn t know who it was.

As a mat te r o f

f a c t ,

l e t me add to

58



t h i s .

I d o n t

r e c a l l - - and

I

would

t ake a po lygra ph

t e s t

on t h i s

- -

I d o n t r e c a l l when t he a pproa c h

happened.

Before

o r

a f t e r 63?

I

d o n t know.

Q In your CIA t r a i n i n g ,

were

you in -

s t r u c t e d on t he use

of t he

po lygraph machine?

I have never been t r a i n e d by

C e n t r a l

I n t e l l i g e n c e Agency.

Q In any o f

your

t r a i n i n g , have

you been

i n s t r u c t e d on t h e p o l y g ra p h

machine?

F i r s t

t ime in my life I ever t o o k a

po lygraph was when I

took one v o l u n t a r i l y

in

New York

a f t e r

I

came ou t

o f

jail a f t e r

t he Ma r i t a

Lorens

a c c u s a t i o n s .

Q

Do you

remember

any o t h e r p e r s o n s

i nvo lved

in

Opera t ion 40?

I t h i nk t h a t

would

be

c l a s s i f i e d

i n f o r m a t i o n .

Q You r e f u s e

to answer t h a t

q u e s t i o n ?

No

no t t h a t I

r e f u s e

to answer t h e

q u e s t i o n

Q But a t t h i s t ime

you

r e fuse

to

answer?

I

would

c o n s i d e r

t h a t

c l a s s i f i e d

i n fo rmat i on

59



---------

Q o

you

remember

the fo l lowing names

a s s o c i a t e d wi th

Opera t ion

40:

Manuel Art ime?

Yes

r

No ?

A Let me

l e t

you be

aware

of

c e r t a i n

thing

because I

d o n ' t t h ink

it could be a ' 'Yes o r No

answer.

Q Are you

r e f u s i n g to

answer t h i s

q u e s t i o

on

the same b a s i s ?

A

Oh,

no.

Let me j u s t e x p l a i n someth ing

see , Manuel Art ime, be fo re the Bay o f

Pigs

In v a s io n

you

had

the

Cuban

R evo lu t iona ry C ounc i l ,

which

was the

p o l i t i c a l .

This

was what Howard

Hunt

was i nvo lved

with , the p o l i t i c a l o f f i c e r

fo r

t h a t .

Howard Hunt , I b e l i e v e , d i d n ' t have

noth ing to do wi th

Opera t ion

40, because

t h e r e

was a

CIA

o f f i c e r in

charge of t h a t , j u s t

l i k e

t h e r e was a

CIA

o f f i c e r in charge

of the Br igade .

So Howard Hunt

c o u l d n ' t have any th ing

to

do

with the Br igade its lf

or have any th ing

to do

with Opera t ion 40.

Now,

Manuel Artime was the younger , I

be l i eve ,

of

the

Cuban Revolu t ionary

Counci l

and

he wa

the

l i a i s o n

between

the p o l i t i c a l e lemen t and the

m i l i t a ry which

was, n a t u r a l l y ,

in

Cent ra l America .

And,

a g a in , because

the papers do th ing

say Manuel

Artime was

the l eaderNronq,

i s

t h a t they

-- · ·

60



of t he Brigade ; bu t he was no t t he l e a d e r o f t h e

Brigade , he was

l i a i s o n

o f f i c e r between

t he

Brigade

ND t he Re vo lu t iona ry Counc i l .

Ev e ry t h i n g

was CIA.

Q Righ t .

That

was

h i s p o s i t i o n .

Now

h i s a s s o -

c i a t i o n ,

if y o u r e sa y i n g a s s o c i a t i o n , because he d i d

know t he peop le in

t he

Br iga de , he d id

know

p e o p l e in

t h a t . Would t h a t a s s o c i a t i o n be p a r t o f t h a t Brigade

I

mean

t h a t ,

would t h a t answer your q u e s t i o n ?

Q

As

b e s t a s

you remember .

T h a t s

all I

can

ask .

Because I d o n t t h i n k

that s

i m p o r t a n t

Q

Do

y u remember

Bernard

Barker b e i n g

a s s o c i a t e d

with

Opera t ion 40?

Berna rd Barker

was

t he

a s s i s t a n t

to

E.

Howard

Hunt

whom we

a l l knew

as Eduardo .

Now a ga in , I d o n t b e l i e v e I e ve r met

E.

Howard

Hunt

bu t we

all

knew many

o f us

knew

Eduardo

was

t he p o l i t i c a l o f f i c e r fo r

t he

Cuban Revo-

l u t i o n a r y C o u n c i l .

Q Did you e ve r meet

Eduardo?

I d o n t

r e c a l l .

This i s

t he

t h i n g . I


Eduardo

Did

Bernard Barker

ever i n t r o d u c e you

in 1972?

Q

------·--------

61



A The on ly

t ime

t h a t I

was

i n t roduced t o

Hunt

and b e l i e v e , if

my

mind i s c o r r e c t r b e -

l i e v e was

i n t r o d u c e d

to

Howard

in B a r k e r s

o f f i c e .

Q

Barker p r e s e n t ?

A He

i n t r o d u c e d

me.

Q

When?

A

This

i s in 1972.

Q Did you know

Barker p r i o r to

1972?

A

Oh, s u r e .

Q When

d id

you

first meet

him?

A Back

many

y e a r s .

Q P r i o r to 1963?

A

Sure .

C e r t a in ly .

Q Did

you

know

Manuel

Art me

p r i o r to

1963?

A Sure .

Q o you remember t he name

Orlando Bosch

a s s o c i a t e d

wi th

O p e ra t i o n

40?

A I

d o n t know

whether Orlando Bosch was

a s s o c i a t e d

wi th Opera t ion

40;

no,

I d o n t .

Q

o

you

remember

t he

Novo

B r o t h e r s o r

e i t h e r of the Lanz

Bro t he r s

a s s o c i a t e d w i th Pedro

Diaz

Lanz?

A I

doub t

it

v e ry

much.

Pedro Diaz

Lanz,

Marcos

and myse l f i nc lude d were p a r t o f

a

s p e c i a l

air

a ro 1- ; l -U l .a t

-W<l-S-_;;="""4-and

1 -w; is- -a s s oc i a t e d w-i- f l-- ff ia-t._



- - - - - - - - - - -

a i r group because t he B-25 bomber was in

my

name,

r e -

g i s t e r ed under

a t t h a t

t ime

t

was

FAA

and t h i s

s m

B-25 bomber, which CIA was given money to was the

same

bomber on

October

21, 1959,

t h a t

f lew

over

Havana,

Cuba,

and t he p i l o t was both myse l f and Pedro

D az Lanz, Marcos D az Lanz and

ano t he r

Cuban

was

in

the bomb bay, where

we dropped hundreds o f

thousands

o f l e a f l e t s over

the Ci ty

of Havana,

accus i ng

t he

Cas t ro

Government

of be ing a Communis t ic Government .

Q o

you

remember Gerald P a t r i c k

Hemming

being

as soc ia ted with Opera t ion 40?

A No

Q

o

you remember Orlando Or te ro a s s o -

c i a t ed

with Opera t ion 40?

A No

Q

Did you be l ieve any o f

the

Opera t i on

members

were

double

agen t s

fo r

Cas t ro?

A I

mai n t a i n t o t oday even t h e n t h a t

I

be l i eve t h a t the

number

o f

Cubans

i nvo lved

both

in

t he

p o l i t i c a L m i l it a r y

and

Opera t i on

40, were doub le

agen ts .

Q Would you i d e n t i f y any o f t hose person

by

name?

A

No.

Q

Because o f a c o n f i d e n t i a l i t y o f any

-

63



s e c r e t o p e ra t i v e o r what

i s

the reason fo r no t

i d e n t i

fy ing them?

Well ,

I

could no t because

of

memory,

for

one;

because

of the

people

who

move

away;

and

be-

cause of

the

p a r t i c u l a r

t ime people could have d i s -

appeared ,

l ft

the

coun t ry ,

so fo r th .

At t h i s

t ime ,

no, because

I never

kep t

any reco rds .

The United

S t a t e s Government would have

reco rds , na t u ra l l y , o f a l l of

these

t h i ngs .

Q o you know

t he

r e l a t i o n s h i p

between

Bernard Barker and E.

Howard

Hunt

p r i o r

to

1972?

A

P r i o r to 72?

I knew

t h a t p r i o r to

72 ,

yes ,

I

knew t h a t Barker

was

Eduardo s a s s i s t a n t .

Q Did

you

l a t e r come to

know

Eduardo was

E. Howard Hunt?

Oh,

yes . This ,

I

t h in k ,

came about in

1972.

Q

Was t h i s a

casua l o r c lo se r e l a t i o n s h i

between Bernard

Barker and

Eduardo?

Well , Barker

and

Eduardo was

a

c l o s e

r e l a t i o n s h i p ,

yeah.

Q

Are

you aware o f Gera ld P a t r i c k Hem-

mi ng s a l l e g a t i o n s t h a t you,

a long

wi t h G. Gordon

Liddy,

a t t empted to i n s t i g a t e a shoo t -ou t between

the

demons t ra t o r s i n Flamingo Park

and

the l oc a l po l i ce

64



~

wi th au tomat i c weapons?

A He ' s a l i a r

MR.

RUBIN:

T h a t ' s

all

Q

(By

Mr.

Fr iedman)

You

a r e

aware

o f

t hos e a l l e g a t i o n s ?

A

I 'm

n o t aware o f them; p l u s I ' m

s a y in

h e ' s a liar I f he made t hos e s t a t e m e n t s , h e ' s a

liar

Q Did you

visit

any l o c a l p o l i c e fo rces

in

Dade

o r a d j o i n i n g

c o u n t i e s

in t he

s p r i n g o f 1972?

A I

d o n ' t u n d e r s t a n d t h a t .

Q Did you visit t he l o c a l p o l i c e a u t h o r

t i e s

in Dade

o r

Broward

County in

t he

s p r i n g o f 1972

A

1 9 7 - -

MR. WEilERMAN:

P r io r

to t h e p u b l i c

c o n v e n t i o n .

MR. FRIEDMAN:

Shhh.

MR.

RUBIN:

Before anymore q u e s t i o n s ,

cou ld we t a ke a

little

r e c e s s ?

MR. FRIEDMAN:

We

c an

r e c e s s ;

y e s

(Whereupon,

a s h o r t

r e c e s s

was

t a ke n a t 4 :30

p .m. )

MR

FRIEDMAN:

Back on

t he

r e c o r d .

Q

(By

Mr. Fr iedman) Did you

tell

Andre

St .

George, E. Howard

Hunt

was i nvo lve d in

a coup le

65



o f o the r CIA

o p e r a t i o n s

t h a t

i nvo lved

d i s p o s a l

and

I

can

t ll you some

o f

them

work" .

Did you t ll t h a t

to

Andrew S t . George?

A

Never

Q Where were you on Apr i l

4 ,

1968, t he

d a t e o f

Mart in

Luthe r Ki ng ' s


A I

d o n ' t

r e c a l l .

MR.

RUBIN:

The o n l y p l a c e he knows he

was OT a t i s Memphis,

Te n n e s se e .

Q

(By Mr.

Fr iedman)

Would

you

l i k e to

say

t h a t fo r t he

r e c o rd?

A The o n l y

p l a c e

I WASN T a t was in

Memphis, Tennessee .

Q

Uow many

f e l o n i e s

have you been c on-

v i c t e d

of?

F i r s t o f f , have you

been

c o n v i c t e d

o f

a

fe lony?

A Yes.

Q

How many t i me s?

A

Twice.

Q

Did

you e ve r

make

a s t a t e m e n t ,

"The

l i b e r a l s ,

I would

l i k e to

kill

them

a l l ?

Never

Q

In a mass c i r c u l a t i o n magazine?

In a

mass c i r c u l a t i o n ,

t he

l i b e r a l s ?

___________

66



I d l i ke

to

k i l l

them All?

MR

RUBIN:

Before you answer t ha t , m

I

have

t he d e t a i l s

on

what

magazine , on

what da t e .

MR WEBERMAN:

Okay.

It

was

- -

I ll

ge t it.

MR FRIEDMAN:

You go ge t the a r t i c l e

and I w i l l go

on

with

the next

q u e s t i o n .

MR

WEBERMAN:

No,

wai t

til I g e t

back, befo re

going

on to t he nex t q u e s t i o n .

Q

By Mr. Fr iedman)

Let me ask ano the r

q u e s t i o n . Did

you tell

Ma r i t a Lorenz

t h a t

t o - w i t :

the CIA,

k i l l e d

Alexander Rourke?

t h e Agency

A

No.

Q

Did

you

make

t h a t

s t a t emen t to

Mar i t a

Lorens?

A

No.

Q

Did

Alexande r Rourke

work for t h e

CIA

or t he

FBI,

to your

knowledge?

A

Yes.

Q

Where was

he

last seen

a l i v e , to

your

knowledge?

A I had a meet ing with

Alex,

I

be l i eve

with B i l l Johnson, one

o r

two

o th e r pe r s ons

with Alex

the

day

o r poss ib ly

two days b e f o r e he d i sappea red .

Q Do you know who t he l a s t person was to

67



No.

Q

By

hearsay?

Matte r

of

f a c t ,

I

ca l l ed

Naval

Intelli-

gence to pu t a search ou t fo r him when he was overdue .

Q

o you remember

t e l l i n g

Michael

Can-

f i e l d , the

co -au tho r o f t h i s book

t ha t h i s f a t h e r - i n

law Sherman Bi l l i ngs l y , was under s u r ve i l l ance by the

CIA?

No.

Q

Did you know

t he

l a t e John Mart ino?

I met him.

Q

The l a t e Will iam Pawley d i d you meet

him

befo re

he

died?

Will iam Pawley Jr. I met

him.

Q

o you

know

a person

known

as Rolando

Cubela a l s o known as

Amlash?

Yes;

in

Cuba.

Q Did

you

know him

in the Uni ted S t a t e s ?

No - -

a t

l e a s t , I d o n t r e c a l l .

Q

Do

you

c o n s i d e r

y o u r s e l f

a

fighter

f o r

Anti-Communism?

I

am a very

s t rong

Anti -Communis t .

Q

Cal l y o u r s e l f

an ex t r emi s t

in t h a t

p a r t i c u l a r

a rea?

Ext remis t? Unders tand t h i s :

I have

-------

-----------



many l i b e r a l i deas

and I

have

many

conse rva t ive ideas

and I d o n t cons ide r mysel f n e i t h e r a l i b e r a l nor a

conse rva t ive .

Q

n

independent th inke r?

Yes, I

t h ink

- -

Q Are you

r e g i s t e r e d as a Democrat o r a

Republ ican?

Yes, I m r e g i s t e r e d

as

a Democra t ;

a l l

my l i f e , a l l

my

fami ly .

Q

worked

for the

same

pa r ty?

Yes.

Q Have you

ever

been

known

as

a

mercenary

o r s o l d i e r of for tune?

Q E i th e r

popular

media o r

imagine ,

some-

th ing l i ke tha t?

I

have read

a r t i c l e s

i n t he pape rs ,

some magazines , where

I v e

been

c a l l e d

a

s o l i d e r

of

fo r tune . I 'm not a mercenary , I never

have

been a

mercenary

in

my

LIFE

Q

Did

you

eve r t h r ea t en

Mar i t a Lorens?

No, never in my life

Q Did

Frank

Nelson ever t h r e a t e n Mari ta

Lorens?

No.



MR

WEBERMAN:

True, o f August 6 4 ,

by

Andrew St . George.

Q

By

Mr. Friedman

Do you d i s c l a i m

Mr.

Andrew

s t .

George s

s t a t ement?

A Yes.

Q

Do you

know i Frank

Nelson eve r se rve

t ime fo r homicide?

A

Not t h a t

I know

of .

Q Have

you ever spoken with Michae l

Canf i e l d

in

a

way

t ha t could be c o n s i d e r e d a t h r e a t

toward

t he

well-being o f Dick Gregory?

A Not

t h a t

I know of .

Q Have you ever worked fo r the CIA as a

con t r ac t agent o r employee?

A I have to ld t he Sena te Wate rga te Comm

t e e , the

In t e l l i ge nc e Committee

and every commit tee I

appeared be fo re ,

t ha t

I have never been an employee o

Cent ra l I n t e l l i g e n c e Agency; t h a t I have t h roughou t

the yea r s and to the day, up

u n t i l

Waterga te ,

t h a t

I

have

had

as s oc i a t i on with

t h e i r

agen t s .

Q

Al l

r i g h t .

Do

you

remember

September

12, 1973, moving

fo r produc t i on

o f

favo rab le ev i dence

a l l eg i ng t h a t Wil l iam Colby had

s t a t e d

t h a t you had

been on t he CIA p a y ro l l ?

I

r e c a l l

t ha t ;

70



Q

We hereby presen t to

you

a copy, no t a

c e r t i f i e d copy, Mr. Rubin

was your

a t to rney a t t h a t

t ime , o f a Motion fo r Discovery of in spec t ion of

favorab le

evidence

in

1973,

a

Federa l

Crimina l

cas e .

A o I mainta in I had

a s s o c i a t i o n ?

I

have

never

been

an employee

of

the

CIA.

Q

Yet

you

did reques t Mr. C o l b y s s t a t e -

ment t h a t you had been on the CIA p a y ro l l n de fense

of

your

A No, I reques ted the CIA f i l e which , to

t h i s day, even

under

the

Freedom

of In fo rma t i on

c ~

I

have not rece ived

and it s

been

l i k e

a lmos t

two

yea r s .

Q

We hereby quote from Page 3 - - may I

ask i f Mr. Rubin w i l l a l l ow t h i s to go

in

as an e x

h i b i t

in

our

case

or

whether

you

wish us

to

o b t a i n

a

c e r t i f i e d

copy, xerox

of

the c o u r t

f i l e ?

You

may

inconvenience me by ask ing

us

to

provide c e r t i f i e d cop ie s .

MR RUBIN: Frank d i d

not of f e r t h i s

o r

s ign it so I w i l l

ob j ec t

to its use .

MR FRIEDMAN: All

r i g h t .

Q

By

Mr.

Friedman) o

you remember

c on-

s u l t i n g with your a t t o r ney

in 1973

MR RUBIN:

We w i l l s t i p u l a t e t h a t he

71



d id .

Q

(By

Mr. Friedman)

- - about

t he fo l low-

ing language ,

and

I quote

from Page

3, Pa ragraph 2(d ) :

The defendan t had been i nd i c t ed f o r

a l l eged a c t i v i t i e s

in

the United S t a t e s

and Mexico in

t he

year

1968; t i s

e s s e n t i a l to the de f endan t ' s de fense to

show hi s

pas t connec t i ons and

working

agreements

wi t h

an

employment

by

the

Cent ra l


Agency

of the

United S t a t e s ; as

a r e s u l t ,

the f o r e

going

becomes r e l evan t and we want them

to be brought forward .

Do

you remember us i ng

or r eques t i ng

the

use of t ha t

kind

of

l anguage ,

to o b ta in

f avo rab le

evidence?

MR RUBIN:

That

i s my l anguage .

THE

DEPONENT

T ha t ' s my a t t o r n e y ' s

l anguage .

Q

(By

Mr.

Friedman)

I s

t h a t

t r u e o r

f a l se ; t h a t you

in

f a c t had p a s t connec t i ons and

working agreements wi t h an employment by

the

Cen t ra l


Agency?

A I

main ta in ,

as I s t a t ed befo re in f r o n t

72



of the

Watergate

Committee t h a t I have

had an

as s oc i a

t i on

in

the

p a s t with the Cent ra l

I n t e l l i g e n c e Agency.

Q

But

no t as c o n t r a c t agent?

Not as

a

Cent ra l


Agency

employee

I

have never been wi t h

t he

CIA.

Q

nd

as

c o n t r a c t agent?

I

s t and by what

I s a i d

t h a t

I

have had

an as s oc i a t i on w i th

the

Cent ra l

In t e l l i ge nc e

Agency.

Q

Did you

have

a

s i gned

c o n t r a c t

w i t h

them

No.

Q

Do

they

s ign c o n t r a c t s

over

t h e r e o r

c o n t r a c t agen t s ; i s the re

a

r e a l c o n t r a c t to be

s i g n e d

or do they

handshake?

Let me

say t h i s :

When I

was in Cuba

I

would never s ign

a

con t r ac t because

i f

I am going

to

spy

fo r

the CIA

I

an going

to

s ign

no t h i ng

wi th

no

body.

Q I f

somebody

looks

a t

the

f i l e

you would

have a littl problem?

Or it

could l e ak

o u t

and

as

a m a t t e r o

f ac t it

did

l e ak ou t i n June 1959 the Cuban I n t e l l i

gence

did

r ece ive in fo rma t ion t h a t

I

W S

spying and th

Second Chief of

Cuban


who

i s

my

f r i e n d

to t h i s

day

- - asked to speak

with me

ac ross

the s t r e e

73



from

the Havana H i l ton

a t n i g h t t ime ,

and

t o l d me

to

l e ave

the

coun t r y immedia t e ly

because

I

was

going

to

be

p laced under

a r r e s t fo r spying a g a i n s t , be ing a

traitor

and t h i s was t he Second Chie f o f Cuban

I n t e l l i g e n c e .

Q Accord ing to Michae l

C a n f i e l d , you t o l d

him t h a t your a t t o r n e y , Mr.

Rubin ,

ob ta ined

a

CIA

c l ea r ance

fo r your

appea rance

be fo re

t he Rocke fe l l e r

Commission.

Wha t s

t h i s ?

Q Did

you

tell

Mr. C anf ie ld

t h a t Mr.

Rubin

had

ob ta ined

CIA c l e a r a n c e fo r you to

a ppe a r b e f o r e

t he

R ocke fe l l e r

Commission?

No I have n o t .

Q Did you eve r pu r chas e guns

from I n t e r -

armco o f

A lexandr i a ,

V i r g i n i a ,

on

b e h a l f o f t he J u l y

26th movement?

Yes.

Q Did

you purchase

any

Manl incher

Manl inke r .

Q Manl inker Carcanos

weapons f rom t hem

6.5 c a l i b r e ?

I purc ha s e d a

number o f

weapons

f rom

them.

Q

Could you have purchased

a

Manl inke r

74



·

···· · ···· · ···

---

Carcanos?

Poss ib ly ; if

t hey

had

them

yes ,

I

could

have.

I f

they

had them

a va i l a b l e ,

if

t hey so ld

t h a t p a r t i c u l a r

type

o f weapon

- -

Q

They d id .

e have i n fo rma t ion f rom CIA

documents

Document

No.

444-175 t h a t

In te rarmco d id

in

f a c t s e l l Manl inker Carcano weapons .

s a mat te r

of

f a c t ,

you

a re r e c a l l i n g

someth ing for me which

Q

Good.

- - when I

l ft

Cuba one of the t h i ngs

F ide l

wanted

me to do was to come to the Uni ted S t a t e s

to

ge t weapons

and to d e l i v e r

them

to the underground

in Cuba.

One

o f the t h in g s t h a t

he

was ve ry , very

upse t about

was

the

f a c t

t h a t

the

underground c h i e f

here

in

the

United S t a t e s

was

sending the

I t a l i a n

ca rb ine to Havana and I have found

t h a t

t h i s weapon

here

- -

Q Couldn t f i r e r ap id?

A

- -

t h i s

i s a

p iece

o f garbage .

I f

you

f i r e d

it

r ap i d ,

it would jam

up and

my

job

was

- -

Q Couldn t

unload

them

in

the S t a t e s so

they dumped

them?

75



-- ·

· ··

·

A In Cuba,

yes ;

and

t hey

Q The arms

manufac t u re r s

have f i n a l l y

met

t h e i r

maker .

P r o f i t e e r s .

Okay.

Co-defendant o f yours in t he 73

c a s e ,

Max

Gonzalez , says

you were an employee

o f

t he CIA f rom

1959

to

1968.

I s t h i s t r u e o r f a l s e?

A

Again ,

I still

s t a t e

t h a t I had my

a s s o c i a t i o n

MR. RUBIN:

J u s t a

minute .

J u s t

a

minu te .

THE DEPONENT:

Sor ry .

MR. RUBIN:

He asked you if Max Gonza lez

s a i d

t h a t

you

were an

employee .

Did he say t h a t ?

THE DEPONENT : He can say

a n y t h i n g .

MR. RUBI N:

T h a t s r i g h t .

MR. FRIEDMAN:

But s it t r u e ?

MR . RUBIN:

I s

it t r u e t h a t he s a i d

i t ?

I s

it t r u e

t h a t

yo

u a re an

emp

l o yee?

THE DEPONENT:

I

mai n t a i n t h a t

I

had an

a s s o c i a t i o n .

T h a t s

it.

Q

(By

Mr.

Fr iedman)

But you

a r e

n o t

w i l l i n g

to

e l a b o ra t e

on t h a t

a s s o c i a t i o n ?

A Ri gh t.

Q Do

you

know where Max

Gonzalez

is

t oday?

7

J



·

--

- - - - -

---------------- · ·

F l o r i d a J

Max

Gonzalez i s in

F o r t

P ie r c e ,

Q He

d o e s n t seem to

have a

t e l e p h o n e

l i s t e d

in

h i s

name.

MR.

WEBERMAN:

H e s in jail.

Q

By

Mr. Friedman)

I s he in c u s t o d y a t

t h i s t ime?

A

I

d o n t know.

I have no i d e a .

Q Do

you know

any

o f

t he

f o l l o w i n g members

of t he C h r i s t i a n

Democra t ic Movement:

V i c t o r Panque?

A

Penequi ; yes ,

Comandante V i c t o r Penequ i ;

ye s .

(Phone t i c s p e l l i n g s . )

Q And

Rudolph Richard

Davis , Jr., a r e you

f a m i l i a r

w i t h

t he name?

A

P o s s i b l y ;

t he

name

sounds

f a m i l i a r .

I f

y o u r e

t a l k in g abou t an

American

who

c a l l s

h i mse l f

Davey, Davis , if it s him.

him o r no t .

MR. WEBERMAN:

THE DEPONENT:

l e a ve it

t h a t way.

I m no t s u r e

whether

it s

I

t h i n k it s him.

I m no t

s u re , let s

Q

By Mr. Friedman)

Do

you know o f

t he

fo l l ow ing members of t he

MIRR

or t he

MIR,

t o - w i t :

Orlando Ma s fe r r e r ?

A I knew him

befo re

he was

k i l l e d ; yes .

77



· ·· · --

-·--·--------------------·----·---·-----------<

Q Kiki ' ' Mlsfe r r e r?

A I

met

him.

Q Rolandi to

Mlsfe r re r?

A I

met

him.

Q Do you know any o f the fo l l owi ng peop l e

Mitche l S t ua r t Li v i ngs t on Werbel l (phone t i c ) ; do you

know them?

A I read a l o t about him;

pe r s ona l ly ,

no.

Q Paul Hel l iwe l l ?

A

No.

Q Colone l

Bayard?

A

Per sona l ly ,

no.

Q

J e r r y

Wayne Cunningham?

A

I

d o n t

be l ieve

so.

The

name

s t r i k e s

something,

but

I

MR.

WEBERMAN:

Co-defendant

in the

werbe l l trial

THE DEPONENT:

I 'm not su re .

Q

By

Mr.

Friedman)

Morton Frank l in?

A

D o e s n t r i ng .

Q Henry Grecco?

A No.

Q

Parabel lum Corpora t ion?

Parabe l l a?

P a ra b e l l a i s a co r po r a t i on .

78



· ·· -----

· ·

Q Yes.

A I

th ink

J e r r y

P a t r i c k

has

t ha t ; yes .

Q

Have you

eve r

been

to

Powder

Spr ings ,

Georgia?

A

Powder Spr ings ,

Georgia?

No.

Q

Do

you know any o f

the

fo l l owi ng

peop

connec ted with

the DRE:

Mr. Lanusa? F i r s t name i s

Jose .

A

Jose Lanusa?

That isn t the same one

who was the

mayor

o f Cuba, i s i t ?

MR. WEBERMAN:

Might be.

THE WITNESS:

T h a t s

Pepe --

no, I m

not

su re .

It s pos s i b l e , cause

I

knew some

peop l e i

the

DRE.

Q

By

Mr.

Friedman)

To the b e s t o f

your

r e c o l l e c t i o n .

It was a couple of years ago .

I

d o n t

remember

when I went

to high

school e i t h e r .

A

I m

not

sure .

Q Car l os Bringuie r?

A

I m

n o t s u r e w h e t h e r I met him o r n o t .

Q Miguel Cruz?

A

I m no t s u r e .

Q Juan Franc i sco Blanco F e r n ~ n d e z

A

I m

not

su re aga in .

79

· ·



.

· --·-·-------------------

------------·

MR WEBERMAN:

He was the

m i l i t a r y

d i r e c t o r of the ORA in Miami.

THE DEPONENT

Poss iby .

You

see ,

a t

t h a t

t ime,

you

know, y o u r e

involved wi th all

t he s e

people ,

you ve

met a l o t of them

and, aga in ,

if I

neve

mainta ined c o n t a c t t hen

I would

f o r ge t who t hey a re .

Q

By Mr.

Friedman) I m

going

to g ive a

list

of names and t h i s i s members o f the I n t e r n a t i o n a l

Anti-Communist

Brigade ,

a re

you w i l l i ng to d i s c l o s e

whether

o r not these

people

were

members?

A Sure .

Q Loran Eugene Hal l?

A I

be l ieve he came

in

to my

group

a t

the

same t ime

with

J e r r y

P a t r i c k

Hemming

and t hen he l e f t .

Q

Do

you

know

him?

A I

met him; r i g h t .

Q Ed C ol l i n s , did you meet

him?

A

Ed Col l in s?

I

be l ieve

so .

Q James Lewis?

A

Poss ib ly .

I f

he

i s with t h a t group,

wi th t ha t J e r ry Buchanan; I d i d n t know everybody, bu

I knew - -

Q Mart in Franc i s Casey?

A

Yeah.

80



...- --

· · ··

MR WEBERMAN:

Wait .

You re supposed to

be the l e ade r of the group, Frank .

THE

DEPONENT:

Yeah, but J e r r y P a t r i ck

had

t h i s

group of

men and

J e r r y P a t r i ck

came and wanted

to j o i n

my

group. I d i d n t know everybody

Q

A

Q

A

ca l l ed

him.

Q

A

Q

A

Q

A

Q

A

Q

Q

A

Q

MR WEBERMAN: I see .

(By

Mr.

Friedman)

James

E. Woodard?

I d o n t

r e c a l l

him.

Joe

Cavendish

Garmen?

Joe Garmen; yeah ,

L i t t l e

Joe ,

t h e y

Roy Hargraves?

Yeah.

Leroy Col l in s?

Him,

I

be l ieve

so.

J e r r y Hemming you know.

I b e l i e v e

so.

id

Marks?

Roy

Paine?

I m no t

su re .

Howard Kenneth Davis?

Sid

Marks?

Howard Davis? T h a t s

t he

one

-

Ins t ead

of

Rudolph Richard Davis?

Yes.

Yes.

Lawrence Howard?

81

____



---·--

------------ -·---.

I 'm no t s u re

of

him.

Q

Dick

Whatley?

A

Yes.

Q

Dick

Hatchcock?

A

Not

s u r e .

Q

Edmund Colby?

A

Yes.

Q

Rober t

Kenneth Brown?

P o s s i b l e .

Q

Wil l iam Seymour o f

the

Free Cuba

commit tee?

I 'm no t

s u r e .

Q What

about

John

Cl inne r ( p h o n e t i c ) ?

I 'm no t s u r e .

Q Did you work

w i th

J e r ry

Buchanan

in t he

B e r n s t e i n bus t?

A

Did

I

work w i th

J e r r y Be rns t e in?

Le t

m

ay

t h a t

J e r ry Buchanan, whi le I was in jail

came

to

c o n t a c t

me

and

ask me

i f

I

would c o n t a c t t h e CIA

becau

he had

a n a t i o n a l

s e c u r i t y t h i n g .

I

says ,

Hey,

I 'm in jail

I

c a n ' t do

it 11

He

says , Well ,

y o u ' l l

be o u t s h o r t l y .

When I go t ou t

s h o r t l y ,

I

d i d

c o n t a c t the CIA

fo r

him.

32



'' -··-·······-··· · · ·· _ ________

Q

Did you

have

a mot ive

to

kill

t he

p r e s i d e n t ?

A

No

None wha t s oeve r .

Q

Did

P r e s i d e n t

Kennedy

t h r e a t e n to r e -

voke

your

Amer ican

c i t i z e n s h i p

on September 15 ,

1963?

voked?

Q

warn you t h a t

Q

1963?

Revoke?

y c i t i z e n s h i p

w s

r e -

(At t h i s

p o i n t , t he de fendan t Weberman

i n t e r r u p t e d t he i n t e r r o g a t i o n and

a rgued

wi th h i s couns e l c o n c e r n i n g

the last q u e s t i o n posed

t o t h e

w i t n e s s . )

(By Mr. Friedman)

Did Bobbie

Kennedy

(Again,

t he de f endan t Weberman a r gued

wi th h i s couns e l conce r n ing t he u n

f i n i s h e d q u e s t i o n

be i ng posed to t h e

w i t ne s s . )

(By Mr.

Friedman) Did

somebody

in

t he

J u s t i c e

Depar tment in 1963 warn you

to cease and

d e s i s t

your war

a c t i v i t i e s

a ga i n s t

Cuba

o r

t h r e a t e n t h e l o s s

of

your

u. S.

c i t i z e n s h i p if you d i d n t ?

I

d o n t

r e c a l l what

yea r

Q Did t h a t occur?

I

d o n t

r e c a l l

what yea r r e a l l y t h a t

came

o u t .

It

d id occu r ,

but

I m no t s u r e o f t he

yea r .

4



·

··

- - ----·- - - - - - - · ~ · ·

· · ·

Q Did he t h r e a t e n to send you to j il i f

you con t inued these

war

a c t i v i t i e s ?

A He d i d .

Q

What did

they tell

you?

A I was warned by t he government t h a t if I

did p e r s i s t

in

doing these

opera t ions

a g a i n s t

Cuba

t h a t ,

you know

l ega l ac t ion would

be t aken

a g a i n s t

me

Q You met with Pres iden t

Kennedy

wi th

Car los Pr io in the

White

House?

A

No not

in

the White

House;

here

in

Miami

Beach.

Q

Did

he l i s t e n to

your

p l e a s o r d i d he

r e fuse to accep t your pleas to con t inue to suppor t the

Cuban

Revolu t ionary

Front?

A

As

a

mat te r o f f a c t , Pr e s i de n t Kennedy

was very favorab le

when

I

i n t roduced

him to t he

ex -

p r e s i d e n t of Cuba

and exp la ined

who

the

e x -p re s i d e n t

was.

Mr.

Kennedy spoke

very

f avo rab ly of Mr. Pr i o and

of

the

Cuban cause ; spoke ve ry f avorab ly .

Q Was your B-25 bomber r e g i s t r a t i o n r e -

voked by

the Kennedy

Government?

A

I m

not

su re who

was

in government .

I m

not

su re whether it

was

- -

Q But it was revoked?

85



· · - - · - · - - - · - - · - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

i

over

Havana with the B-25.

I came back s ho r t l y a f t e r

my p i l o t s l i c ens e

was

revoked .

Yes, t ha t

I

can say .

Q were members

of

the

I n t e r n a t i o n a l

communist Brigade a r r e s t ed?

A I

have never had any con tac t wi th t h a t

group

of

boys .

Remember

what

I t o l d

you - -

Q

o you

know

i f

t hey were a r r e s t ed?

A

Remember what

I

t o l d

you,

t h a t

I

d i s -

a s s o c i a t e d

myse l f

wi th

the

Brigade

and

t he

person

t h a t

took over

the Brigade a s Sec re ta ry was J im

Buchanan.

So, I d i s a s s oc i a t ed myself wi th them.

Now,

what

t hey

did a f t e r t ha t

I

d o n t

know.

Q When

did you

d i s a s s oc i a t e

your s e l f ,

about 6 2 , 63?

A I d o n t r e c a l l .

Q

Did you

f ee l t ha t P re s id e n t Kennedy

doublcrossed the e x i l e s a t t he

Bay

of Pigs?

A I

f e l t t ha t

t he

government

a t t h a t

t ime

did

a

very

big

be t r aya l

of the

Cuban

e x i l e s .

Q Did you f ee l t h a t the Russ ians and

Pres iden t Kennedy

had

come t o g e th e r to

make a

dea l t o

c u r t a i l these an t i - C as t r o a c t i v i t i e s ?

Yes.

I

f e l t

t ha t Russia

and t he

United

·

87



--------------

S t a t e s ,

yes .

Q

How tall

a re you on

your d r i v e r ' s

l i cense?

A

I 'm

not sure ; about 5 '10 ' ' , 5 '1 1 ,

something l i k e t h a t .

Q

Have you ever been

accused by your ex -

a t t o r n e y

MR. WEBERMAN Wait a

second.

Can I

look

a t

t ha t ?

THE DEPONENT:

(Handing

l i c e n s e

to the

defendan t

Weberman.)

MR. WEBERMAN

(Examining same)

Okay.

Q

(By Mr. Friedman)

Do you know t h a t

your

e x - a t t o r n e y , Char les Ashman,

be l i e ve s you to

be

t he

t ramp in the

Daily

Plaza?

A

Well ,

if

he

s t a t e d

t h a t he be l i e ve d I m

the

t ramp

in the

Daily

Plaza ,

it s a

l i e because

I saw

t he p i c t u r e s in

Washington

and t he se

two people t h a t I

saw up t he re t h a t look

l i k e

me, f o r g e t it.

Q

You unders tand

t h a t Mari ta L orens ,

a l

so . I

b e l i e v e s

th i s ?

I

I

A People

can

be l i e ve what

t hey

want to

b e l i e v e .

Q Did

you userubber

gloves , f a l s e ID

and a

'

38



-

· · - ----------

- . ·--------- -·- · ·-- ·---------------· ·--------------

w al k i e - t a l k i e n the Watergate ope ra t ions?

A Yes.

Q Were

you, a l s o ,

involved in

t he

burg la

r i e s

of

the o f f i c e s

o r

homes o f Sol Linowi tz and Jaco

Jav i t z?

A No.

Q In Oswald s

address

book t he

name

appea r s , I submi t to you we be l ieve to be - - where th

little

red

mark shows

- -

t r y

and

ge t

t hose

documents

i n t roduced , Oswald s address book accord i ng

to govern

ment documents . I s

t ha t

your name?

A To

me? No

it s

no t .

Q

O

you know what

t h a t name

i s

t he r e?

A No.

I f

t h a t

name

i s

me

I gua ran tee

got

me

n the re to

be

s e t up to

be k i l l e d ,

because

a

t h a t t ime I

was

very s t ro n g ly

ant i -communis t ,

my nam

was

n

the

paper qu i t e

a

b i t

and he supposed l y ,

by

h

w i fe s t es t imony,

made an

a t t empt

to k i l l

Genera l

Walker

who was an

outspoken

- -

Q And John Connol ly .

A

Whatever ; and Richard Nixon, and

so

fo r th .

Q

o

you f e e l t h a t you

were

n the same

c l a s s on a h i t list

of

Oswald s?

89



·· ·· ...

_

A

I f t h a t i s my name t h e r e .

I d o n t

t h i n k t h a t s y name t h e r e ; bu t if t h a t i s my

name,

I

would assume t h a t t h i s i s h i s r e a s on .

Q

Have

you

submi t t ed

MR. FRIEDMAN: You

d o n t w nt to s t i p u

l a t e t h a t t h i s i s t he a u t h e n t i c - -

MR. RUBIN:

I d o n t mind if t s

e n t e r e d

as

p a r t of

the

d e p o s i t i o n .

MR. FRIEDMAN: For

p u rp o se s

o f t h e

d e p o s i t i o n , we

submit

t h a t

as

a copy o f an a u t h e n t i c

p i e c e o f

the a ddre s s book.

Q

(Thereupon, the document was

marked D e fe n d a n t s E x h i b i t

No.

1 . )

(By

Mr.

Friedman) These peop le were

a s s o c i a t e d

wi th

Oswald

in New Orl eans , a l s o had ti s

w i th v a r i o u s o t h e r e x i l e s ,

e x i l e

groups ,

i n c l u d i n g

t he

Cuban

R e v o l u t i o n a ry

Counci l

and

Cuban

Revo l u t i ona ry

F r o n t .

I m

going to g ive you

t h e s e

names and

you say Yes o r

No as

to

whether o r

no t you

know

t hese

pe op le .

Wil l iam Stuckey?

A

I m

no t

s u r e .

90



· · · ·· ·· ·· · ···

Q

Clay Shaw?

A

No

Q Ca r los Quiroga?

A

I m no t su re .

Q

Ernes t o

Rodriguez ,

J r .

o r S r . ?

A Too

many

yea rs .

Q

Edward But l e r?

A

No

Q

Ores te

Pena?

A

Too many

y e a r s .

Q Orlando Piedra?


Q Ronald

Caire

A I


Q

El ad i a

de l

Val le?

A I be l ieve I may have met him b e f o r e . He

was a sena to r , i I m

not mistaken .

t imes .

I

met

him s eve r a l

Q Gordon Novel?

A

I never met him p e r s o n a l l y .

I have

spoke

with him on t he t e l ephone ,

but

I

have

neve r , I

d o n t

be l i eve I

ever

met

him pe r s ona l l y .

Q o you remember when t h a t conve r sa t ion

was

91



. · · · · ·· · ··· . . ···· · · · · · · · · · .

A

Maybe l a s t

yea r .

I d o n t know

Q Alton Oshner?

A

I

d o n t

know

Q

Wil l iam Gaudet?

A I

d o n t

know

Q Hal

Ross Yockey?

A D o n t

r e c a l l

him

Q Luis Rabel

o r

Rave l?

A

I d o n t r e c a l l him

Q Frank Ba r t e s

o r

Bardes?

A I d o n t r e c a l l

him

Q Wil l iam Monteleone?

A


Q

Guy

Ba nn i s t e r ?

A


Q How abou t Meyer P a n i t z ?

A I don t

r e c a l l him

Q Sam

Benton?

A D o n t r e c a l l him

Q Dino

C e l l i n i ?

A Yes

Q

Blaney

Mack Johnson?

A Who

Q

Blaney Mack Johnson?

92

·



·

A I

d o n t r e c a l l him

Q

Joe Marrs?

A

Joe Marrs?

Q Hmmm.

A I


Q C l i f t o n T Bowes?

A

D o n t r e c a l l .

Q Les Lewis?

A I


e i t h e r .

Q

Rober t

Vol lmer?

A D o n t

r e c a l l

him

Q Rus s e l l Douglas Mat thews?

A D o n t

r e c a l l him

Q

Nunzio

Pecora?

A D o n t

r e c a l l him

Q

Mickey

Cohen?

A

Mickey Cohen?

I

may have

met hime one

t ime on Miami Beach

Q

James

Brad ley?

A

D o n t

r e c a l l

him

Q

J im

Braden?

A

D o n t

r e c a l l

him

Q

Did

you

e v e r h e a r

o f

t h e

f o l l o w i n g

p l a c e s a s s o c i a t e d w i t h Jack

Ruby:

93



. .

· ·· · .·

- - - - -

-------·-··

·

·

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ·

Aero

Ordinance

Supply?

1

I

A No.

Q

Town

Country Motel?

A In New Orleans?

Q

In New Orl eans .

A I

s tayed

a t

t he

Town Country a t one

t ime when I went th rough New Orl eans .

I was headed to

Cen t r a l

America .

Q Trop i ca l

Court

T r a i l e r

Camp?

A No.

Q CIA

memo,

da ted

June

10,

1975,

Memo No.

135-1059B, s t a t e s t h a t An unknown group i s back to

stir

up some o f

S tu rg i s '

a c t i v i t i e s .

Could you i d e n -

t i f y the group?

A

No - - yeah.

One was Dr.

- -

MR WEBERMAN:

Sanchez

Moreno?

THE DEPONENT:

No.

Dr. Luis

Con ta -

huelo (phone t ic ) .

I made a s e r i e s

o f o p e r a t i o n s

fo r

him

which he f i nanced .

He could not g e t any

Cuban

p i l o t s

to

do

the

o p e ra t i o n ,

so

I p e r s o n a l l y d id the

ope r a t i ons .

Q

Let

me ask you i

you

a re f a m i l i a r w i th

t he se

names:

Maurice Gat l i n?

94



\

\

---- .

I d o n t

r e c a l l

t h a t

name.

Q

Hugh

Ward?

D o n t

r e c a l l

t h a t

one .

Q

David

F e r r i e ?

D o n t r e c a l l

t h a t .

Q

c.

Ray Gi l l

D o n t

r e c a l l .

Q

Ca r los

Marche l lo?

D o n t

r e c a l l t h a t .

Q

Manuel Gil

D o n t

r e c a l l

t h a t

one

e i t h e r .

Q

Arcacha

Smith?

I d o n t

r e c a l l

t h a t .

Q

Are you

f a m i l i a r

w i t h

the

a d d r e s s ,

544

Camp

S t r e e t ,

New O r l e a n s?

I

read

t in

t he

book.

Q

You d o n t remember whose book?

No; bu t e v id e n t l y in

one

o f t h e books

p e r t a in in g

to

t he J . F. Kennedy a s s a s s i n a t i o n .

Q Are you f a m i l i a r

w i th

any

o f

t h e

fo l l ow

ing o rg a n i z a t i o n s :

Cuban Re vo lu t iona ry Counci l o f

New

Orleans?

Not in

New

Orl eans ; wi th t he

Cuban

Re vo lu t iona ry

Counc i l

o f

Miami; ye s .

_ _

95



-

-

..

-----· ---------

----

-------------

Q

Were you ever

a t

t he t r a i n i n g

camps a t

Lacombe Louis iana?

A

Nope.

Q Did you hear abou t them

p r i o r

to t oday?

A

Yeah.

Q Are you f ami l i a r

with the

Fr iends o f

Democra t ic Cuba?

A Not r e a l l y ; no.

Q Are you

f ami l i a r

wi t h the

B al t e r

Bui ld ing ~ New Orleans?

A No.

Q In

your d i s c l o s u r e s

t o t he p re s s

about

the

J .

F. Kennedy dea t h

be ing

t he

r e s p o n s i b i l i t y

o f

Fide l Cas t ro ,

you

c la im

t h a t

Oswald met

wi t h

Cas t ro

agen t s in the

Yucatan.

Do

you have any s ourc e o f t h a t

in format ion?

A

J u s t sources

t h a t I

t u rned ove r

to t he

government . Some of my

sources

t h a t I r e c e iv e informa

t i o n from pe r t a i n i ng to

the

i n fo rma t ion ,

and so

fo r th

came

from

some f r i e n d s

o f

mine

who

were

a t

one t ime

agen ts , CIA

agent s

o r

who

had

been wi t h

t he CIA.

MR

RUBIN: I have about two

pages more

o f q u e s t i o n s ,

p l us

going

over a few o th e r q u e s t i o n s .

MR

RUBIN:

I w i l l

give you

a

few

-

97



m inu te s .

Go

ahead .

F ra n k , do you want

to

s t a y?

THE DEPONENT

Yes.

Q

(By Mr. Friedman)

A rn e s t I . Arag6n ,

Uni ted

S ta t e s Sec re t Se rv i ce ,

have

you e ve r met

him

o r

know o f him

A I m

no t

su re .

Q

What

abou t

FBI S p e c i a l Agent James

O Conner?

Wel l , him, h i s

name

r e g i s t e r s . I

b e-

l i v e - - I m no t s u re - - he

was

one

o f

the

two

a g e n t s

p e r t a in in g to the Bay o f Bigs Invas i on .

Q Well , w a s n t he your

case

o f f i c e r

when

you

r e t u r n e d

from Cuba in

1960?

A Well ,

when you

say

case

o f f i c e r , a r e

you

t a l k in g abou t

t he

CIA?

MR

WEBERMAN

No,

no; FBI.

In

o t h e r

words , maybe

you

i n t r u d e d . You ve g o t t a watch t h i s ,

you were r e c r u i t e d by

F i d e l ; in o t h e r words ,

c o u n t e r -

s u r v e i l l a n c e , c o u n t e r - i n t e l l i g e n c e

f u n c t i o n ; in

o t h e r

words , when

you came

back from Cuba,

h e d want

to know

i f you were l e g i t o r you were r e c r u i t e d by F i d e l .

MR FRIEDMAN:

D e br i e f ing o f f i c e r .

THE DEPONENT

P o s s i b l y ; because you

93



must unders tand t ha t I s e t up an i n t e l l i g e n c e

appa ra tus

here in the

United

S ta t e s . I was

Chief

of


and I was

a l so , Direc to r

of

S e c u r i t y

of

the

Cuban

Air

Force .

So I had an i n t e l l i g e n c e appa ra tus t h a t

I

did send

here to

the

un i t ed S t a t e s and n a t u r a l l y ,

t h i s

in format ion was

tu rned

over to the

Uni ted

S t a t e s

Government .

Q

Now,

AlcohoL Tobacco

Fi rearms

Agent

Frank El l swor t h ; do you know him?

A I d o n t

know

him.

Q FBI Spec ia l Agent

warren

C. de

Brueys?

o

you know

him?

A

Poss ib ly .

You

know w e r e going

over

yea rs , and - -

Q CIA employees do you remember any o f

these

people :

Will iam Harvey?

A

No.

Q

S h e f f i e ld

Edwards?

A I d o n t r e c a l l

him.

Q Rober t

A. Mayheu?


Q Richard B i s s e l l ?

99



A

·

1

Everybody knows t h a t B i s s e l l

was

i nvo lved in the i n v a s i o n .

Q But

you

d i d n t

know him p e r s o n a l l y ?

A

No.

Q

Desmond F i t z g e r a l d ?

A No

Q

J .

C. King?

A Well , he was

t he

top

man

fo r

t h e Brigad

in

Ce nt r a l

America .

Q

o

you

know him

p e r s o n a l l y ?

A Persona l l y?

No.

At

l e a s t , I

d o n t r e c a l l meet ing him.

Q

Richard

Helms?

A No.

Q

Thomas Karamiss ines?

A I

d o n t

r e c a l l .

Q Raymond Rocca?

A I


Q Danie l

James?

A No

Q

Mariada Arensberg?

A I

d o n t

r e c a l l none

o f

t h e s e p e o p l e .

You

must unde r s t a nd t h a t many pe op le

going in

d o n t

use

t h e i r

names t he y use code names .

100



· ~ ·

··· ··· ···· ·

- - - -

--·----------

-

·

· ·

0

, if r • n ocrooo C h e m d o n t know

who t he y o r i g i n a l l y

were o r what .

I d o n t r e c a l l meetJ

ing

any

o f t he se

peop l e . J

Q In r e l a t i o n s h i p

to Oswald

and the Kenne

a s s a s s i n a t i o n , i n v e s t i g a t i o n r evea led

t h a t t he fo l l ow-

ing names, we

a r e

wonder ing

whether

o r no t you know an

of these people :

George DeMorhenschi ld t?

A I have

never

met him p e r s o n a l l y .

Q

Ruth Paine?

A No

Q Michael

Paine?

A No

Q General Edwin Walker?

A

No

Q

Genera l

Char le s Cabe l l?

A I m not su re o f General Cabe l l .

He was

an

i n t e l l i g e n c e

o f f i c e r for MacArthur ; I m not s u r e .

Q David P h i l l i p s ?

A

No

Q

D.

E .

Bos t e r

A

See ,

David P h i l l i p s - - let me go back

to David P h i l l i p s - - he worked in Havana.

I m no t

sure

hether

I ever met him or not

because he

was the man

t ha t

I would

be ,

t h a t I was

in

touch

with ;

but t he r e

i

101



~ · . . ·

· · · · · ~

i s the

p o s s i b i l i ty t h a t he may have

ran

a c ro s s

me in

the embassy

and

I d i d n ' t know who

he

was.

Q

D.

E. Bos te r?

A

I d o n ' t r e c a l l him.

Q

Richard

c.

Nagel?

A

No; d o n ' t r e c a l l .

Q

Jay Mal l in?

A

I met Mal l in .

Q

Paul

Bethe l?

A

I met

him.

Q

Sanchez Arango?

A Yes.

Q

Do you know the l a t e Dr. Car l os

P r o

Soca r ra s?

A Yes.

Q

Did

you ever work for him?

A

I have been

a s s o c i a t e d

with him. I have

never worked

for him.

Q Did you know

a

man

t ha t worked

wi th him

or

fo r

him

named Jack

Rubins te in?

A No.

Q

This

i s

pr io r

to

C a s t ro ' s

coming

i n t o

power pr i o r to 1959.

A I

d o n ' t r e c a l l .

102



- - - - - - - - -··--·-. · ··

--

Q

Did

you ever meet

Jack

Ruby?

A

Jack

Ruby?

No.

It s the same

name.

Q During

the

f i r s t months

o f

the Cast ro

regime

in

Cuba, were

you

appoin ted

Mini s t e r

o f Games o

Chance?

A I was

pu t i n

charge of the gambl ing

cas inos fo r t he Cuban

Government.

Q Did you ever

have con tac t

wi th peop l e a

t he

Tropicana

Casino?

A I

was in

c o n t a c t

with

many

peop l e

- -

Q

o

you remember a p i t ch boss by

t h e

name of

Lewis

J .

McWill ie?

A

Yes.

Q

Did

you

know

him l a t e r

in Miami?

A

I

m

not su re .

Q

Did

you

ever

meet him

on

a house boa t

over by the

Fonta inebleu?

A I d o n t be l ieve so.

Q o you know the

owners of

the

Nacional

Hote l ,

Will iam

and

Mike

Mcclaney?

A I met him; yes .

Q

o you remember a

man

named Jo rge Soto

Mar t inez?

A Jorge

Soto Mar t inez?

----

103



----- ----

· ·.

·

·

Q George.

A

George? Poss ib ly .

I f

he

had

any t h i ng

to

do

with

cas inos ,

poss ib ly ,

because

Q

He worked with

Mcclaney.

A Poss ib ly ; because I d i d n t meet eve ry -

body the re cause t h e r e s too many

people

invo lved .

Q During

the

e a r ly 60s , in

an

e f f o r t to

wipe out the Cas t ro

Government , c e r t a i n

con t ac t s were

made with gambling

f i gu re s .

Did

you

con t inue a s s o c i a -

t i ons with gambling f igu re s?

A When I l e f t

Cuba

and came i n t o t he

United Sta t e s , I have had no a s s o c i a t i o n wi t h NY

of

the people

who had

anyth ing to do wi th gambl ing

in

Cuba.

I m

t a l k i ng

about

a s s oc i a t i on .

I

may

have r an ac ros s some of them on

the Beach

in

a

lounge ,

something l i k e t h a t ,

because of

my

Cuban

f r i ends where we used

to go meet c e r t a i n

people .

So, you know, - -

Q But you

d i d n t

do any b u s in e s s wi th

them?

A I

have

NEVER in my life

worked fo r

gambl ing c a s in o s , worked for any

of

the gambl ing

e lements , i n

Cuba

nor the

Uni ted

St a t e s .

l

04

1



- -

- - -

- - --------

· ·

---- ·

Q

What

about Norman Rothman?

A I have never worked for Norman Rothman.

I

knew

he was

in

Cuba.

Q

Did

you have con tac t with him

in

t he

United Sta te s?

A Well , I ran

ac ross him on the

Beach

w i th my

Cuban

f r i e nds .

Q

Was

t h a t j u s t say ing ,

Hello' ' or d id

you

have

a

conve r sa t ion

with him?

A

Hel lo ,

Goodbye ,

Have

a

dr ink

and

then

l e ave .

Q

Q

T h a t ' s

it.

All

r i g h t . What about t he se peop l e - -

(At t h i s

po i n t ,

the

defendan t

Weberman

again i n t e r r u p t s the i n t e r r o g a t i o n to

d iscus s

the next

q u e s t i o n . )

(By

Mr. Friedman)

Do

you remember a

s to l e n

s e c u r i t i e s

case where in you were

q u e s t i o n e d

by

the FBI

about

your con tac t with Norman Rothman?

A I

d o n ' t

r e c a l l

t h a t , but I

r ead

some-

th ing about t h a t ,

about

Norman

Rothman

being i nvo lved

in Canada about ,

you

know, s to l e n

s e c u r i t i e s ; bu t

I

c o u l d n ' t

help

you

w i th t h a t in any way what soeve r .

MR. WEBERMAN: But

you

remember be i ng

ques t ioned?

THE DEPONENT:

I d o n ' t

r e a l l y

remember

105



---- · ~ · · ~ ~

being

ques t ioned .

MR. WEBERMAN: We

have

the r e p o r t .

THE DEPONENT: Well , if you

have it

then they m us t ve because t h a t s been so many

yea r s

ago and

it

was of no

i n t e r e s t

to me, you know.

Q

By Mr. Friedman

Did you a id in

the

r e l ea s e of

Santos T r a f f i c an t e

from

a Cuban j a i l ?

A Santos T r a f f i c an t e

was a r r e s t e d i n

Cuba

l i k e

~ a n y

of

the

Americans .

Q Did you he lp ge t him out

of

j a i l ?

A I

wouldn t say t h a t what

I t r i e d to

do

helped him

get

out of

jail because Santos had a good,

s t rong con tac t with

the

Cuban

Government

and

one

of the

people he had a s t rong c o n t a c t w i th was

MR. WEBERMAN: Juan Or ta

(phone t i c ) ?

·rim DEPONENT:

No,

not him

- -

w el l , I

d o n t know about him.

It was

somebody

e l s e .

He was a

c a p t a i n . Mari ta

knows t h i s

pa r t y .

He was a mula t to

and

I m t r y i ng to

remember

h i s

name.

Capta in

Yanos

P e l e t i e r ,

I

th ink

it

was,

and he

above

a l l

was very

c lose to F ide l and I

t h ink ,

from t he i n fo rma t i on I

go t ,

t h a t Yanos P e l e t i e r was

very involved and in s t rumen ta l in ge t t i ng Santos r e -

l eased .

106



for

him.

. ··

-------------1

Myself ,

p e r s o n a l l y ,

I

could do noth ing

Q

(By Mr. Friedman)

Cou ldn t pu t

in a

good

word

fo r him?

A

Yes,

I pu t i n

a good

word fo r

him.

Q

Do you remember the Mannarino Brothers?

A

The Mannarino Bro the rs ,

I

know

one t h a t

met in s ide of Cuba. be l ieve he

had

something to

do

with

the

r a c e t r a c k ,

one

of the

p a r t n e r s

a t

the

race-1

t r ack ; because as a

government o f f i c i a l

we s o ld ,

t h e

government

al lowed

someone e l s e to come

in and buy

i n to

the r ace t r ack .

Q Did you have

any a s s oc i a t i on

wi th Meyer

Lan sky?

A

No;

not pe r s ona l l y .

Q

Jake

Lansky?

A No.

Q

Hyman

Levine?

A I

knew Jake ,

I knew Hyman Levine .

MR. WEBERMAN:

You

s a id

you

knew

THE DEPONENT:

Yes, I met Jake .

had any a s s o c i a t i o n

with

him.

Q (By Mr. Friedman)

John

R os s e l l i ?

Jake?

I never

A I m not

su re

of R os s e l l i ,

to

be

very

j

l 07



· · · ···

· · · · · · · · ·

hones t

with

you.

Again, going

back the re

in

Cuba,

you

know

what

I

mean?

I met a l o t of people , bu t , hey,

you fo rge t .

Q

Don t

you

remember t a l k i ng with

him in

September of 1960, about

an

a s s a s s ina t ion p lo t

on

Cast ro?

A I d o n t r e c a l l r e a l l y ; I hones t ly

d o n t

r e c a l l .

Q

o you remember meet ing Sam

Giancanna?

A

No,

I d o n t r e c a l l ever

meet ing

- -

Q

Dominick Bar tone?

A Yes.

Q Mart in Fox?

A Mart in

Fox,

you mean?

Q Yes, Mart in Fox.

A Yes,

he

was

the owner of

Tropicana .

Q You

knew both of those people?

A Oh,

su re .

Q

Edward

Browder?

A I m not su re

o f

Browder .

Q Jack

Youngblood?

A Yeah, I

met him

in Cuba.

Q Hyman Berg?

108



involved

may have

I 'm not sure of

him.

Rober t

McKeowen?

I m not

su re

o f

him e i t h e r .

Q

Q

o you

have

any

knowledge of

fou l p l ay

in the

dea ths

of

John Mart ino?

No.

Q

Manuel

Art me?

No.

Q o

you

have

any

i n fo rma t i on

t h a t

Mar t

been

ac t ing as a double agent?

T h e re s no

conc re t e

evidence ; no.

Q

Did

you

ever vo ice

a b e l i e f

t h a t

he wa

a

double

agent?

Well ,

in those t imes , dur i ng those

pa r t i c u l a r e ra s and

so f o r t h , t he r e have

been c e r t a i n

Cubans speak up

which I

be l ieve to t h i s

day , because

j e a lous i e s , have

s t a t e d t h a t Art- ime

pos s i b l y was a

double agent ;

but prove

it how

can

you prove

i t ?

Q Did

you

ever meet a f i lmmaker named

Morgan?

Morgan? What ' s t he o th e r

name?

Q Cra ig Sheldon?

Cra ig

Sheldon?

Yes.

Q Ray Sandstrom?

109



Ray

Sandstrom?

Yes.

Q o you know of any connec t ion between

the CIA

and

Sandstrom?

I be l ieve Ray f lew fo r CIA in Broward,

For t

Lauderda le .

Yeah, I

r ece ived in fo rma t ion t h a t Ra

was working

for

the

CIA.

Q

was E. Howard

Hunt

involved

in

I s r a e l i

I n t e l l i gence?

I m not su re .

I d o n t

know.

Q

o you remember when you l a s t spoke wi

James O Conn er , Spec ia l Agent?

I

d o n t

r e c a l l .

It s probab l y

been

many

years

ago.

Q Did you

have

any

connec t ions wi th

Nava

I n t e l l i gence?

Well , I c a l l e d , I be l ieve

it

was Naval

I n t e l l i g e n c e , when Alex

d i sappea red .

Q Other than

t h a t , you d o n t have

any

connec t i ons with Naval I n t e l l i g e n c e ?

Other than

t h a t ,

I

d o n t

r e c a l l .

Who

knows?

Q

Would you d i s c lo s e the name

of your

Naval or

M i l i t a r y I n t e l l i g e n c e con t ac t in Miami?

I f

we had to in f r on t

of

t he judge ,

ye

110



- -

· · · · · · · · · ~ ~ .

Q But r i g h t now you c la im you have the

pr i v i l ege o f not

d i s c lo s in g ?

A In c losed

se s s ion with the judge , yes ,

I would.

Q o you remember the l a s t t ime you

spoke

with

Mitche l l

Werbel l?

A I

have never , to

my

knowledge ever

spoken

to Mitche l

Werbel l ,

nor

do

I

be l ieve

I

ever

met

him.

Q Did

you

ever have

a

r e l a t i o n s h i p wi t h

Manolo

Reboso

in Opera t ion 40?

A I t r a i ned

Manolo

Reboso be fo re the Bay

of

Pigs .

Q

Did

you

eve r

meet

Guy

Bann i s t e r o r Tom

Beckham?

A I

d o n t be l ieve so.

Q Did

you

s t a r t your

own church?

A

Why

I had

none.

Wel l

I wanted

to s e t

up some

miss ions

in Cent ra l

and

South

America

fo r poor

people

in the

Andes

and

so

fo r th ;

b u t ,

u n f o r t u n a t e l y ,

Watergate des t royed t h a t .

Q

Were

t hose mi ss i ons CIA p r o p r i e t a r y

f ron t s?

I f my coun t ry asked me to

~ e r v e

them

- - - -

111



even today , I would be doubly cau t ious and make su re I

d o n t go to j a i l l i ke I did

in Waterga te .

I

want

it in

w r i t i ng ,

you

know.

Q But

if it

was in

wr i t ing?

C er t a i n l y .

I m

always ready to

go

ahead

and

a i d

my

count ry .

Q Did you

ever

meet

Nino D az?

C e r t a in ly ;

a f r i end

o f mine,

fo r

yea rs .

Q Have you r ece ived any f i n a n c i a l suppor t

from

Genera l

Biddle?

No.

Q Have

you

eve r

worked in any Ant i -Cas t ro

ope ra t ions with a one-armed

man?

We're

going

to have to go

ahead

and ge t

a littl b i t - - when you say - -

Q o you remember

s p e c i f i c a l l y

a one-armed

man

t ha t you worked with?

fo re?

Yes.

Q In an t i - C as t r o ope ra t ions?

Yeah.

Q Would you

d i s c l o s e the name

to us?

No. He' s a CIA - -

Q Are you us ing the same p r i v i l e g e as be -

112



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

A Yes.

Q

You

r e fu s e to

answer due

to n a t i o n a l

s e c u r i t y ?

A

Yes.

I d o n t want to

expose agen t s

be-

cause

I m

not sure whether t hey

a re e i t h e r r e t i r e d t o -

day o r whether

they

a re

still working fo r

t he

govern-

ment.

I

w o u l d n t want to uncover

them,

you know;

un le s s

they

were a l ready uncovered , you know.

Q

I f

t hey a re

i nvo lve d

in

fo r e ig n

o p e r a -

t i o n s ,

you f ee l

t h a t t h a t comes under the Freedom o f

Informat ion Act?

A

Right .

I mean, if I have to in f r o n t

of the judge , no problem.

Q

Did you ever have a connec t i on

w i t h

an

underground o rg a n i z a t i o n t h a t had its headqua r te r s in

Swi tzer l and?

A

Who had

a

headqua r t e rs i n S wi t ze r l and?

Q Yes.

A I d o n t r e c a l l any

headqua r t e r s

in

Swi tze r l and .

Q ow did you meet Wolfredo Navarro?

A

Wolfredo Navarro i s one o f

the

Cuban

e x i l e s ,

him

and hi s fami ly , t h a t

came

in to

e x i l e

from

Cuba.

113



--- ·------- ·------- · · - · · ·- ---------------------------- · -------

Q How

d id

you

meet

him?

A Oh, I d o n t

know;

t h rough

o t h e r

Cuban

f r i e n d s ,

I

gue s s .

Q Where?

A In

t he Uni ted S t a t e s .

Q Did you e v e r meet

La r ry

Schmidt o f

Conserva t i sm USA?

pe op le :

book.

A I

d o n t r e c a l l ; no.

Q

Did you e v e r h e a r

o f

t h e

f o l l o w i n g

MR. WEBERMAN: J u s t read t he whole

list

Q

(By

Mr. Fr iedman)

E.

H. Summers?

A E.

H. Summers?

D o n t

r e c a l l .

Q

Rowena

W

F r e e f i e l d ?

A D o n t r e c a l l .

Q Ted Colby?

A Ted? You

mean

Ed

Colby?

Q No, Ted

Colby.

A Ted Colby?

D o n t

r e c a l l .

Q

You

remember

Ed

Colby?

Q

Ed,

ye s .

I

know

Ed Colby; s u re .

MR. WEBERMAN:

It

was in O s w a l d s n o t e -

THE DEPONENT:

I know

it

114



----1

Q

(By

Mr.

Friedman)

Would

you

d i s c lo s e

where

you met him?

A He

was p a r t

of

Joe Buchanan s group an

of f

and on he

always

c a l l e d me. As

a

mat te r o f f a c t ,

h e s in

town,

h e s on

Miami Beach,

I

th ink ,

somewhere

Q

I s

he in

the t e l ephone book?

A

No.

Q You d o n t know

where

he l i v e s though?

A He

c a l l e d

me

and

sa id

he

would

g e t

a

phone,

t ha t he would c o n t a c t

me; but

he i s

on

Miami

Beach.

Q

You

d o n t know where he

l i ve s ?

A No, I d o n t know where

he

l i v e s .

Q Roman

Harten?

A No.

Q

You know

anybody a t Vantage Press?

MR.

WEBERMAN:

It s a Vani ty

House in

New

York.

They pub l i sh books fo r people

t h a t

c a n t

ge t

a

book pub l i s he r .

THE

DEPONENT:

I v e been i n t ouch wi th

so

many

peop l e , who

knows?

Q

(By Mr. Friedman)

When did you first

s t a r t us i ng the name Frank S t u r g i s as

opposed

to Fran

F i o r i n i ?

- ______________

115



A Well , I v e used a number o f d i f f e r e n t

names a l l th rough ,

you know, my life.

Q

Did you

eve r

use

MR

WEBERMAN: When did you

g e t

THE

DEPONENT:

See, St u r g i s

was un-

covered dur ing

the Waterga te

t h i n g .

My

mother

was

r emar r i ed and I

kept

t h a t away

from

my

a c t i v i t i e s ,

you

know.

Q

{By

Mr.

Fr iedman

When

did

you

g e t

your

name changed to

St u r g i s ?

been

- -

Repor t .

A Oh, it s been so

many yea r s --

Q How o ld were

you when it

was

changed?

A

Who knows?

I

be l i e ve

it might

have

MR WEBERMAN:

It s

in

t he R oc ke f e l l e r

THE

DEPONENT: What da te

did

t he y give?

MR WEBERMAN: 5 3 .

Did you use the name

Q

{By

Mr.

Friedman

Did you

use

t he nam

St u r g i s p r i o r

to

1953?

A

No.

I always used F i o r i n i .

Q

Did you use

S t u r g i s

p r i o r to

1953?

A

No.

No;

on ly

when

my

name was changed

116



1

because my s t e p f a t h e r , because

of

my s t e p fa the r ,

hi s

name was Ralph

S tu rg i s .

Q So

in 1953, you adopted

the name S t u r g i s

l ega l l y?

A

Yes.

Q And from t h a t

t ime

forward

you

s h i f t e d

from

F i o r i n i to

S tu rg i s ?

A only

use

F i o r i n i except on ly

on

l e ga l

m a t t e r s .

Q

o you

remember how o ld you were when

your mother

remarr i ed?

A God

c a n t remember.

b e l i e v e

she

was marr ied

e i t h e r i n Ca ro l ina

or ,

you know,

o r

in

Virg in ia .

Q

Are

t he r e

any o th e r wi tnesses b e s id e s

your immediate r e l a t i v e s and

Gera ld ine

Shamma,

to

v e r i f

your whereabouts

on

November 22, 1963?

A Yes.

Q Who a re they?

A Wil l iam

Johnson,

we

c a l l

him

B i l l

Johnson.

Q Where

i s he?

A

He

l i ve s

here

in

San

Souc i E s t a t e s in

11iami, Dade

County.

117



•

------ ·

· · ~ · ----

· · -

Do you know

anybody e l s e ?

A

His t e l e phone n1.lllber i s 893-6013 .

J im Buchanan, as

a mat t e r o f

f a c t ,

I

b e l i e v e J im

Buchanan

came to my house on t h a t d a t e of

November t h e 22nd, him and I went o f f

t he

day o f

t he

J .

F.

K.

a s s a s s i n a t i o n .

Q Anybody

e l s e

you remember?

A

Those

t h r e e : G e ra ld ine Shamma,

J im

Buchanan,

Wil l i am Johnson ,

my

nephew,

J im

Hunt

MR. WEBERMAN:

What d id you tell t he

Rockefe l l e r

Commission?

THE DEPONENT:

The

same

t h i n g .

MR. WEBER.MAN:

But

they

s a i d it

was

on

c l o s e r e l a t i v e s .

MR. FRIEDMAN:

You

have

to l ook a t h i s

t e s t im ony .

t h

MR.

WEBERMAN:

No, it s r e p r i n t e d in

c o u r t .

THE DEPONENT: Oh, y o u ' r e

t a l k i n g

a b o u

t he

R o c k e f e l l e r Repor t .

I 'm

s o r r y .

You ' re r i g h t .

I

g l a d

you

brough t

t h a t

up, because j u s t

r e c e n t l y ,

b e-

cause o f all t he p u b l i c i t y , pe op le d id c o n t a c t me and

tell me, Hey,

you remember

t h i s ,

t h i s , t h i s ? I f you

need any

he l p , f i ne .

--

118



.

·

· · -··• - ---------------------

- - - ·

Well ,

I

t o ld Fonzi and Fonzi

supposed l y ,

I m

no t su re whether he has a l r eady been in t ouch

with

these

people

o r

no t ,

but he i s aware

of t he se

peop l e

t h a t I came

across .

So

I t u rned

it over

- -

MR WEBERMAN:

But you d o n t

know

whe

t h e r we can l oca t e Jim Buchanan, where we

can

l o c a t e

him?

Washington,

D

us i s wrong.

THE DEPONENT:

No, I

d o n t .

Whereupon, the defendant Weberman

had

of f - t he - r e c o rd

d i s c u s s io n wi t h

h is

counse l . )

MR

WEBERMAN: You t o l d Canf i e ld

it

was

c.

THE

DEPONENT: No. No.

MR WEBERMAN:

I v e

got it

on

t a pe .

THE

DEPONENT: I m

so r ry . Then one

of

MR WEBERMAN:

You d o n t know where it

i s , but you were watching t e l e v i s i o n .

THE

DEPONENT:

Because I was home.

1

MR

FRIEDMAN:

Good.

Bring the

t ape

i n .

You made a mistake

THE DEPONENT: I could

have - -

MR WEBERMAN:

so

you

w e re n t

working

119



t h a t day?

THE DEPONENT:

I was a t home and I d i d

l eave

the house .

Supposedly

Jim Buchanan came and t o l d

me t h ~ I went with him and left t he house wi t h him.

Q

(By Mr. Friedman)

Poss ib ly you

were

a t

Lum s

on

27th Avenue?

A

I

d o n t know.

The

CIA goes t o , t h e y use

Hol iday

Inn.

Lum s i s

FBI

- - no, no,

I m

g e t t i n g

a l l

mixed

up, who goes to

what .

Denny s i s

FBI.

Q Have you worked

with

Mari ta Lorens on a

many ope ra t ions?

A A few.

Q

o

you

remember

t he Albanian Code

Miss ion?

o you

remember

working with

her

on

t h a t ?

A

Well ,

l e t me

say

t h i s .

See

MR

RUBIN:

ust say Yes

or No .

THE DEPONENT:

Yes,

t h a t s

r i g h t .

Q

(By

Mr.

Friedman)

What was i t ?

A

I m

s o r r y .

I

c a n t

go

i n t o

t h a t

because

I t u rned a l l o f t h a t i n fo rma t i on over t o t he C e n t r a l


Committee.

It s fede ra l agenc ie s t h a t a r e

i nvo l ved .

Q

Did you work

with

he r on t he Cold Cream

120



· ~ - - - - · · · ·

---------·-··-·---------

- · · · · · · - ' · · - - - · - · · - - ~ -

Caper?

A Yes.

Q

Wo uldn t

you

c o n s i d e r

her

and

Gera ld ine

Shamma, her

and Gera ld ine

Shamma, as

your

two

top

female ope ra t ive s?

A I

c o n s i d e r

them,

because

I

have r e c r u i t -

ed

o the r

people , I r e c ru i t e d

them a t

t h a t

p a r t i c u l a r

t ime

they

were very

i mpor t an t peop l e .

Q

hy

did

Mari ta t u rn on you and

accuse

you of

t r y in g to k i l l

her?

A

I

d o n ' t know.

I 'm

on ly

t e l l i n g you

- -

Q o you

t h ink

s h e ' s c razy o r do you t h in k

she

was

pushed

by

A. J . Weberman?

A Again, I w i l l go ahead

and

r e pe a t ,

t h a t

when she came out with these accusa t ions n the paper

and I

con tac t ed

with

he r ,

she t o l d metha t

she

rece ived

a

l o t of

p re s su re

to do t h a t .

Q

From

whom?

Did

she

say

A.

J .

Weberman?

I

She

sa id

other

people .

I

Q

Did

she

use

the

i n i t i a l s

A.

J .

Weberman?/

I

A

No,

she

d i d n ' t

use

A.

J .

Weberman.

Q

J u s t

Weberman?

A

This

i s

why

she

sen t

me

t h e t i c k e t

to

come

up

the re

because

she was

going

to

tell

me - -

121



- - - - - - - - - - · - - -

· ·

· · · · · · · ---------

Q

D id n t want to

t a l k on

the phone?

A I

a s ~ ~ m e you know, t h a t , w e l l ,

what

t he

he l l i s going on? You know,

t h a t , okay, if Weberman,

you know, i s p u t t i n g

p r e s s u r e on

he r , who a re t h e s e

o the r people?

This i s why I went to New

York upon,

you

know,

her sending me

the

t i c k e t ,

to

f ind

ou t who and

what

the pres su re s

were

in her making

t he se

accus a t i ons

MR.

RUBIN:

T h a t s

it

L e t s

go.

We waive s ign ing .

Thereupon, t he t ak ing

of

t he

depos i t ion

of

FRANK A. STURGIS

was concluded a t

5:30

p.m.)

122



I

~ T T

t

OF FLORIDA

CERTIFICATE

OF

COURT

REPORTER

COUNTY OF DADE

I ,

CARRIE JANE McGAREY

a / k / a C a r r i e Jane

Holland) , a Bi l ingua l Ce r t i f i e d Shor thand Repor te r and

NotaryPublic in

and for

the S ta t e of

Flor ida

a t Large,

hereby

c e r t i f y

t ha t

a t

the

t ime

and

p lace

here inabove

s e t fo r t h

the re came before

me one FRANK A. STURGIS, w

was by

me

f i r s t duly caut ioned and sworn then c a r e f u l l y

examined; t ha t h i s sworn t es t imony was reduced to t ype

wr i t t e n form

by

me persona l ly

from

my

Pitman shor thand

notes ; and

t ha t the read ing , s ign ing

and f i l i n g o f

Not

were waived by counsel for the

re spec t ive p a r t i e s .

I fu r the r c e r t i f y t h a t I am not r e l a t e d to

o

employed by any of the p a r t i e s to t h i s cause , nor am I

f i na nc i a l l y i n t e r e s t e d in

the

outcome of same.

WIT NESS WHEREOF, I hereunto s e t my

o f f i c i a l

sea l a t Miami, F l o r i d a , t h i s 1 s t day

o f

June ,

197 8 .

· ~ o

.;r

, ' .

My C c ; ; H T 1 ~ 1 ~ .

E A o r l ~

.> 1. 1 o

SondP <I htu

:

J r 1 UO J• n t: J 1 : ; - . c

deposition of frank fiorini sturgis in hunt v. weberman

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