203

191 7.

VICTORIA.

EVID'ENOE '\

TAKEN BY THE

ROYAL OOMMISSI0N'

ON THE

HOUSING OONI)ITIONS O]jl THE PEOPLE , ,

IN' THE ,lVIETROPOLIS ... -, l'

AND IN THE ~

.k~""" f i'

POPULOUS ,CENTRES Oll TIlE STATE.

PRESENTED TO BOTH HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT BY HIS EXCELLENCY'S COMMAND.

[APPl'oztmate 00111 of P/lptT.-Preparation. not given., Printing (400 copies), £380.]

~!1 6\.utharitJ.!: ALBERT .J. ttrULL'ETT, GOVERNMENT PRINTER, tlELBOUmUI.

No. 29.-(118. 3d.]-':6462. ' '

1,

THE EVIDENCE.

I

, ,

Tollis Excellency, the Honorable SIR ARTHUR LYULPH STANLEY, Knight Oammander of the Most Distinguished Order .of St. Michael and St. George, Governor of the, State of Victoria and its dependencies in the Oommonwealth of ,:-4 ustralia., .

, We, your Commissioners appointed "to inquire into and report as to the Housing Conditions of the People in the Metropolis and in the Populous Centres of. the :Sta~e," have the honour to subl1}it the printed Minutes of Evidence. .

" '

Following the practice hitherto adopteq., the Minutes, of Evidence were printed from' day today until the ,23rd June, 1915. Evidence 'taken subsequently was not printed, fn accordance' with the Report of ' the Printing Committee (D. No.4, 1916), which advised that" the printing from day to day of evidence given before Select " Committees, Royal Commissions, &c., should be discontinued. .,.. . After the Report'has heen prese:nted the House could decide whether it is necessary to print all .or any part o~ the evidence in amplification of the Report."

J'. cR .. OWEN, Secretary,

State Parliament House, ,

Melbpurne, 25th September, 1911.,

i :'

R. H. SOLLY, Chairman. J. G. AIKM:AN: M. BAIRD. , E. J. COTTER. J. MENZIES. H. F. RICHARDSON. 'J. STERNBERG.

"

MET:&OPOLITAN POUCE.

_Arnold, A. Eo, :iVIalvern Brown, R., Port Melbourne Burke, J., Port Melbourne Burke, 1\11., Hawthorn ...

Qnestiolll!. 2422 l638 1632 2243

Davis, F. H., Footscray Dugdale, R. R., Brunswick Frawley, J., Northcote

... 2353

Halpin, R. 1., Prahran Hennessy, '1'., Footscray Kelly, M., South Melbourne Koetsveld, A. E., Richmond Loorham, J., North Melbourne Maiferzoni, B., Fitzroy McDonald, R .. K., Collingwood Malone, A. A., Coburg ... Matthews, J., Moonee Ponds Morris, J. B'., Essendon Rae, G. If., Kew .. ', Scott, George, Russell-street Sharp, E. W., Carlton West, J. J., Camberwell

. White, '1'., St. Kilda .. ,

SOCIAL WORKERS. Baglin, Htw. J. '1'., minister' of the Church of

England, Footscray ... '" Biggs, L. V., journalist and ex· councillor Boyce, Archdeacon F. B., archdeacon of "Yest

Sydney, Church of England Brown, Rev. '1'., Presbyterian ministcr, Colling-

wood '" :.. '... ... ... ·Cain, Rev. J. H., Wesley Church, Melbourne .. , Emily, Sister, Methodist Missio11, Fitzroy ... Faith, Sister, Collingwood Mission ... ' Fielden, Lorna May, director, Free Kindergarten,

Exhibition-street, Melbourne ... .,. Freeman, Janie; Melbourne District Nursing

Society ..... ·Gault. Rev. J. A .• snperintendent, Co1lingwood

Methodist Mission '... . .. ··Good, Rev. J., St. Jude's, Carlton Joyce; Rev. R. S~, p'ort Melbourne Henderson, Janet, de.aconess of the Presbyterian

Church, Victoria ... ,Johns, Rev. Wesley, minister of 'religion, North

Melbonrne .... ... LambIe, Rev" G. K,Richmond ... McCalh.jID, Rev. Alexander, Methodist minister,

Wesley Qhurch ... ... . .. McClean, F., Total Abstineuce Society Moreton, Mercie, secretary of the Women's

Rescue and Slum Work, Salvation Army, Melbourne ... .... ..

Neville, Rev. C., superintendent, Presbyterian . Mission, Fitzroy .. ' ... ... . ..

,Nicol, J. A., missioner, Melbourne Total, Ab· stinence Society ......

Noble, W., inspector' for the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children ...

Onians, ~dith. C., honorary secretary, City News-boys Somety. ...

Rigby, E. C., councillor, 'Hawthorn City 'Rowed, Rev. A. B., St. Silas', Albert Park '," . Tregear, Rev. C., Methodist minister and super-

intendent, South Melbo~rne Methodist Mis­:sion .. , .. . ..

-White, Rev. W., St. J~mes' Old Cathedral,and Metropolitan Mission, Melbourne ... , ..

Willoughby, Nellie, Salvation Maternity Hos-pital, North Fitzroy ... ... . ..

·Wilson, Fanny Mand,' general snperiutend,ent, Kindergarten, Carlton

HEAL'rH AUTHORI'rIES. . Armstrong, W. G., senior medical officer of

2437 2330 2469 2381 1575 2028 [919 1770 1829 2157 2212 2182 2487 1527 1658 2306 2328

3374 3810

6972

3276 2599 2840 2818

3228

4103

2774 3521 2858

2118

2800 3553

2528 2094

'3918

3013

2941

4181

4315 3694 3432

2661'

3G24

4O:ro

3221 .

health for New South Wales.. 6739 ::Bage, Dr. Charles, medical practitioner, repre·

senting the Australian Health Society and Social Questions Committee of the Melbourne Anglican Synod 3856

205

EVIDENCE.

H:uLTli AUTlIOBlTIB8-continued, Questions

Cobb, F. E. 'r., civil engineer aud assistant engi­neer and inspector, Health Department, Vic­,toria' (part presented, in manuscript, folios 1612.and 1635) ... ... ... ... 7063

Fitzgerald, Eileen, L.R.C.}>., L.R.C.S., medical officer, Edncation Department , ...

Greig, J,' S., M.B., B.S., D.P.H., medical spector, Education Department

5004

4893 Siqclair, T. W., health officer for City of Mel-

hourne '" ... ... ... ... 5533 Sutton, Harvey, M.D., Ch.B. (Oxford), medical

officer of the Educo.tion Department .. , 4971

HOUSI~G MOVEMENTS. Astley, A., manager of the Colonial Sugar Re

fining CO,mpany 4825 Bentieigh, C. L., secretary of the British Ameri-

,can Tobacco Company 4784 Bawden, J., West Coburg 6127 Brennan, F,., superintendent of the State Labour

Bureau, and chairman of the Board of Con-trol ,at Canvastown ... ... ... 6986

Cameron, W., managing director of the British American Tobacco Compp,ny ... ..' 4732

Cocks, A. A. C., M.L.A., chairman, Greater Syduey Commission 6646

Geach, F., solicitor, Ascot Vale 6113 Hall, F. F., manager of the Government Re-

SlImed Properties 'and manager of the Hou8ing, Board . ... ... ' . .. .. . . .. 68()4

Kennedy, T., Aate chairman, Lands Purchase and Management Board ' 5013

Little, H. .I., manager for Richardsou and :Wrench Ltd." real estate experts 6938

,ylcElhone, A., alderman, Sydney City Council ... 6917 Taylor, Sir Allen Arthur, M.L.C., Sydney 6875 Thomas, T., H., secretary, Workers' Homes

Board, Western Australia ... ... ... 9115 Walsh, H. D., commissioner and engineer-in.

chief of the Sydney Harbor Trust .. , ... 6782

'fOWN PLANNING. Davidge, W. R., architect and surveyor, London,

lecturer on behalf of thc Garden Cities and 'f'own Planning Association of Great Britain in connexion with the Australasian Town Planning Tour ......... 6028

Fitzgerald, J. D., barrister-at-Iaw, and vice­president of the Town Planning Association of New South Wales ... ... ... 6434

Irvine, R. F., I'rofessor of Economics at the University of Sydney ... '... ... 6529

Reade, C. C., organizer of the Australasian Town Planning' Tour on behalf of the Gar­den Cities and Town Planning Association of Great Britain ... ... ... 6129, 6236

Stanton, R., real estate agent and town planner' 6473 Stephen'" E .• Milner, barristel'-at-Iaw,' member of

the Sydney City Council, and member of the Town Planning Association, &c. ... .., 6692

Sulman, J., consulting architect, and president ,of the Town Planning Association of. New .south Wales .... 6885

Tay1or, G. A., honorary secretary of the Town Pla.nning Association of ~ew South Wales 6557

Morrell, J. C., A.R.I.B.A., Public Works De­partment .. (presented ,in manuscript, folios 1596 and 1617);

LOCAL GOVER~MENT LAW . Dndds, R. H., officer in charge of 'the Local Go­

vernment Branch, PublIc Works Department, Yictoria 7016

Garlick, J., officer in charge of Local Govern-ment, New South Wales 6936,

,IV

IrsL>EX OF EVIDENCE-contin~ed. MUNICIPAL.

QuestiOns. 5116 Barbo.ur, R. T., co.unciller, City ef ,Hawtho.rn

,Breden" J. N., centro.ller of city assets, Sydney City Council, New Seuth .Wales ~, ' .. : 6558

5343 ,5282

Burton, W., alderman, Melbourne City Council l,3utcher, W. R., tew~ clerk, Co.llingw~o.d Clayton, J., ,ex-to.wn clerk' o.f the City ef Mel-

bo.urne ... . ... ... ... 5665, 5769 Luxfo.rd, T., co.uncillo.r, City' o.f Collingwoed 5136 ,Ellery, T., G., to.wn clerk, City o.f Melbo.urne

(also.. a memorandum 'relative to to.wn plan-ning, including a reference to. the To.wn Planning Bill befo.re the Parliament o.f Seuth Australia). '

Mo.rto.n, H. E., city engineer, Melbourne (pre­sented in manuscript, folies 1651 et seq.).

ARCIIITE'CTS, BUILDERS; ETO .. Little, <!ehn, henorary secretarr,' Royal Victo.rian

Institute o.f Architects ... ... ... 4594 Lawson, H. R., builder and architect (presented

in manuscript, felio.s 1667 et seq.).

INDUSTRIAL. Beeler, .,;J. C" president; Victorian Master

Painters Asso.ciation ' 4405 Colenso, T. H., henerary seeret1>ry, Victerian

Master Painters Asseciatien ,4357 , Fox, .T., preside,nt of the Master Painters ,Asso.-

ciatio.n o.f New So.uth Wales .. ,.. 6858 O'Brien, J'., general secretary of the Federated

Ship and He'use Painters. Sydney" New So.uth ,Wales ... .._ ' 6847

Watsen" H.. 8ecretary or the Co.-operative Painters Unien 4298

PROPERTY' OWNERS. Antonio., E., secretary, Preperty Owners' De-

fence League ,4465

\

SEA-SIDE CO'\'DI'l'IONS. Co.lense, R.,' councillo.r, Shire o.f Domdel1ell'g ... '" 10881 Cro.ckett; D. H., pelice censtable, :;'\1:entene 7209 Disney, A. J., pelice censtable, Aspendale 7396, 9250 Groves, F., ceuncil,er, Shire ef Dandeneng 10602, Gunn, T. d., pelice constable, Carrum , ..

10817 9015

Jenes, A. W., honerary secretary, Dandeneng Shire, Ceunci! Feresho.re Trust 9315

7260

'.

Kennedy, D" D., police constable, MerdiaUec .. , Kitchen, Rev. G. A" vice-presid(jnt, Franksto.n

Pro.gress Asso.ciatio.n Lewis, W. T., hen. secretary, Black Ro.ck Pre-

gress Association ' , McCermack, W. H., police constable, Frankston McDonald, R., .police co.nstable, Chelsea McDo.no.ugh, D. J., Progress Associatien, Chelsea McLean, C. W., president,' Progress Asseciatien,

Carrum ... Rain, W:; co.uncillo.r, Shire of 'Dandenollg Richardso.n, H. J.; hen, secretary, Aspendale

Progress Asseciatio.n ' .. She bier, G. H., pelice constable, Black Reck ... Webb, W. H., architect, representing Chelsea

Pregress Association ... '.. ... Wilsen, W., secretary, Progress Association, Sea­

fo.rd

8969

7336 ,7456 8231 7641

9041 10451

7,460 7176

8374

8419

BALLARAT AND BALLARAT EAST. Question&._

Austin, ,A. n., pelice' censtable in charge ef' , ,Meunt Pleasant and Gelden P.o.int Districts 10086 ..•

Blanchfield, R., senio.r co.nstable ef po.lice 9609 Camero.n, D., 'health inspecter, &e., Ballarat... 10106, Elllett, G. V., pelice' co.nstable, Ballarat ... 9443. Gardiner, J. M., medical practitiener, and health

, efficer, Ballarat East ...' 9917 Gent, J., tqwn clerk, Ballarat E,ast 9796 . Hunter, A., ,city valuer, Ballarat, 10265 .. , Kean, J., secretary,' Ballarat Trades and Labo.ur

. Co.uncil ~ ,.. 10403 .. King, T., po.lice' col!stable, Ballarat So.uth 9718, Mergan, G., plain-clethes co.nstable, Ballarat

East . " .. , 10036' , Osbo.rne, H., pelice censtable ... 9752-. Pearse; R., Mayer o.f Ballarat .. , 9564 Regers, ' W. J., senier pelice censtable; Ballarat

East '... U:l068',', Regerson, J" sergeant ef pelice, Ballarat 9384 Tho.msen, A;, secretary, Carters and Drivers

Unien, ,Ballarat 10325· Ward, W., pelice co.nstable 9515 Watt, A., to.wn inspecter, Ballarat East 10019,

",. BENDIGO AND EAGLEHAWK. Beebe, W;, architect and co.uncillo.r, City o.f Ben-

,digo 8913: Burke, 'P. '1'., .po.lice censtable, Back Creek... 8588: Caulfield, J. J'., senio.rpo.lice censtable, Quarry

Hill " 8566·~ Dalley, P. J.' B., po.lice co.nstable, Bendigo. 8544 Eadie, J. M., medical practitiener, and health

, efficer of Bendigo. ... English, M., bo.ro.ugh inspecto.r, Eaglehawk Heeper, J.-, ceuncillor, Eaglehawk

8861 8728 8775

Lyons, ,A., medical practitiencr, and health efficer, Eaglehawk.,.. 8748:

r.1:anning, L. F., Bendigo. 'Trades and Labour Ceuncil '.. ." 8962

McGowan, S. H., city co.uncillo.r, Bendigo. 87]8 Moor?, S. G., citj: and huilding surveyer, Ben-' -2-

dtgo ,.. .. ,..... 861 Payntel', ,J. E., chief cit,y in~pector, Bendigo. .8440, 86~9 ' Shepherd, A., president. Trades Council, BendIgo 8936 Thorburn, J., pelice censtable, Bendigo. .. , 8508, Trevenna, .J., councillo.r, Eaglehawk 8777 Walker, P., p,olice co.nstable, Go.lden Square 8616' Wilkie, W., Mayer o.f Bendigo. ,.. 8784

CASTLEMAINE, Fo.wles, H, A., police constable 10770·' O'Mullane, W. N., po.lice co.nstable stationed at

Castlemaine .. ' ... .. ,10757" Slinderlimd, ·W. '1'., bo.i:o.ugh sun-eyo.r an(i health , inspector ",' .'.. .., ... 10618 .

Walker, W. R., health inspector... 10780" Wo.e~~~~r G. T., medi.calpractiti<?ner, healt~ l(iil91

GEELONG. Alridge, W., pelice co.nstable, Geelong South .. , Bro.wnbill" W., councillor and mayer, 'City of

Geelong ... Hickenbotham, D:, inspector, City o.f Geelo.ng ... Kingwell, C. V., i.nspecter, Geelo.ng West Laidlaw, D., . police censtable, Newtewn' ... Loughren, J. L., plain-clethes censtable, Geelo.ng

'O'Go.rman, T. 0., pelice constable, Geelong West Rees, Si.ster Avis E., Church o.f England 'City

, Missien, Geelong ... ... Tayler, M., land officer, Geeleng ... Trainer, O. J., ~enior ,co.nstable, Geelong

8190

7898' 7734·

.7960 8148-9'

8062 8123"

7859' ,7915· 7998-8169" Walsh, T. F., police constable,.Geelo.ng East

White, A. ,G .• councillor, Shire of Barwon , 7799-

207

ROYAL COMMISSION CONDITIONS OF

.. ' ON THE HOUSING THE PEOI)LE.

(In continuation of evidence given bej()1'e the Select Committee on the Housing of the People.-Paper D. No.4, Un3.)

TUESDAY, 19'1'H MAY, 1914.

Present: .

R. SOLLY, ESQ., l\LL.A., III the Chair; The Hon. J. Sternberg, M.L.C., The Hon. H. F. Richardson, M.L.C:, The Hon. J. G. Aikman, M.L.C., E. Cotter, Esq., M.L.A., J. Menzies, Esq., M.L.A.

George Scott, sworn and examined. 1527. Bytj~e Ohairman.-Wha.,t are you 1-

A plain-clothes constable, stationed at Russell­street. I gave evidence before the Committee on the Housing Problem some little time ago. I will put that evidence in.

1528. ~ave you anything to a<;ld 7-In answer to QuestIOn No. 296, I said-u In Casselden­place, on the other side of Little Lonsdale-street, in the block bounded by Spring-street, Lonsdale­street, Exhibition-street, and Little Lonsdale­S'Lreet, there are ten houses of three rooms., about 12 feet by 12 feet, and the rents run from lOs. to 12s. a week. In this quarter the houses are mostly occupied by Chinese, and women who live with them, together with some women who are about the streets. In Surrey-place and Griffin­lane there are seven houses of only two rooms-­small, miserable places. In Leichardt-stree't~ in the same block, there are seven houses contain­ing two rooms each. The rooms are 10 feet by 12 feet, and the reuts run from 128. to 14s. a week. I think three, if not all, of those places will be condemned at the. next City Council ex­amination. I think they are going into thc particular quarter I have mentioned this coming week." These places are still occupied in 'that block. Thero are, I think, seven faetories­they are Chinese factories. There are City Council notices on the doors that, within a period of twenty-eight days from the date C!f the no­tice, these places are not to be inhabited unless certain improvements. are made, but only one of those notices has any date on it, so I cal'lllot see ' that they are any use at alL Five. out of the seven are still occupied. There is only one date, that is the 20th April, and it looked as if the others had not any date on them. In that particular block, hi illy opinion, there are fifteen to twenty houses that are not inhabited, that are absolutely unfit for human habitation, and people should not live. ill them;-they are miserable hoyels-miserable, dark places in oad localities. The houses are in very bad repair.

1529. n!/ the Han. H. F. Richardson.-Do they all' belong to the one owner ?~N 0, they are in different portions of that block. If tbe water was coming in thro1).gh tbe r.oQfs they would have to get out, but they, are so dark in several placi:t that in daylight, you WQuld have to ·light a. ,dIe. .

1530. By the Ho-n. J. G. Ail.;man..-Suppose you owned a place in that locality, and the City Council pulled the houses down, what would you do 1-It is seven months since I was there, and those places were going. to be condemned then, and they are still there. It does not need more than a look at them for any man or officer of any body to say that they are not fit to live in.

1531. ,By Mr. Menzies.-To whieh places do you refed-There are six in Unioncplace, off . Exhibition-street, and six in Cumberland-place and McCormack-place, at the back of the steam laundry, and three in Leichardt-street, and one in Little Leichardt-street. Those are the worst of them, but thero- are others' pretty bad. .

1532. By the Ghairman.-Is any reason given by the tenants of those properties why the City Couucil has not removed them--did the tenants make any request to be allowed to remain there? -No, they live there as long as the houses are allowed to exist.

1533. In some cases where councils have con­demned houses there has been a request by the tenants to allow them to remain longer On ac­count of their not being able to get other ac­commodation ?-That may be so. It is difficult to get accommodation. No doubt, the City. Council have done good work ill the block im­m,lldia:tely ad joining Wesley Church. Five or si'X houses have been pulled down, and factories built in their places. In my opinion, the places in those lanes are only fit for factories; they are back places, and I do not think people should have . living houses ,there at all.

1534 -I. Ar·£i there .-any c~ild¥'en there 1-Yes, numbers of them, and when you get localities like that they breed criminals and prostitutes.

1535. What sort of people tenant the houses t -In the locality at the back of the steam laundry, cbetween Spring-street and Exhi.bition-street, there are a mixed popUlation of Assyrians, Italians, Chinese, half-castes, and . all sorts of people.

1536. By illr.·Gotter.-Your evidence is dated ~2nd . October-yon say you think the officers of the City Council in'tend visiting them the next week. That would be about the last week in October; that would give the City Council plenty of time to serve notices, and have the buildings demolished before, .this 1-It does ndt need more than. one look at. those honses to cGndemn them at once.

153'7; By the Hon. J .. G. Aikman.-Do you think the law should . be-' amended to.- give the Council more power 1-It is everybody'S opinion that ~f they, have J;l.ut.power to compel a landlord to pull a. place do·wn and build a better one, they shou~d have- ppwer tQ do gp.

1538 .. Would not the i;enants say the places are beautiful t-They .could HO,t ,.say· tha.t of ,thoSe plac8l:1. Ally officer who. looked at, th0+O WQ:tI1d say, "That place is not fit for any human heipg

Gei)rse Soott; 19tb lIlay. 1914..

/ 2

, , 'i '\ ,\

to live in." Some of those places, perhaps 1548. By the HaiL J. G. Aikma'n.-Yotisa.id seven or eight, are occupied by Chinese. A Ljle City Council were doing all they could 1-Chinaman in numbers of cases win live anywhere, They were at that time, but it struck me they but he should not be allowed to live in a miser- were tL bit slow. I um sure if the City Council able hovel like that, where there is a prospect ' condemned those houses and served the landlords of him spreading disease. with a notice to pull 'them down they would have

1539. HII the' Gha,irman.-What rent are they the public behind them , because they are not fit paying 1-8s. to ~Os., and 12s. 6d. to live in.

1540. Bli the lion. J. G. Aikman. It is '1549. By Mr. Gottw.-Was that one of the places where you took us, where yon kicked ill mostly Chinese living in that locality ~-N 0, it is . b . d the door ~-Yes, I was in there yestm'day, and ·the

jllst from Latro e-stree't--they are a mlxe lot' places are still in the same state, and the people there. There are a number of. English. people. are living in that room. A lot of the women th1l-t live in that locality are no good. In nearly all of those blocks in the 1550. B:IJ the Hon. H. P. R·icha'l'dson.-How b k I tl be' II d d d f many dwellings in that portion of the city of ac anes ley are Illg pu e own, an RC- ?I:Ielbourne should be condemned as unfit.' for

tories built. habitation 7-1 picked out about fifteen of the

1541. The City Council are doing all they pos- vc:ry worst of them yesterday-ther€- are a HUll!­

sibly call to re~lecly those evils-do you admit bel' of others. I would think in that block ,they cannot do it all at once ~-I quite admit t,here wouid be thirty or f9rty, that, ,but my idea is that in six months, or even 1551. Suppose they were all conqemned, where three months, something might have been done. ,,:ould the people go.~-I do not say you would Supposing a notice had been ,posted a month or condemn the lot of them, but you make them re­six weeks after I had been there that they had to pair them to snch an extent that they would .be get out in twenty-eight days.' better to live in. l'he question of where they

1542. If 'the landlord or tenant appeals, you would go to brings in another'i)matter nl'bct,"cther. will say you will leave it to the Council to iI;L- I would like if they could go to the out,er spect--why 'do you condemn the houses ?-They suburbs, and then you would want transit to get are low in the ceilings; there are no back yards ,theI)l in-the cheaper the better. Our, tram to them. The better way would be for an ex- system has stopped at a certain stage for the amination of them. I would take any officer last twenty years, and has never extended. round there to see ;the places themselves-he 1552. By lrf'r. lrfen~ie8.-'iVould you get the could do it within an hour. cabinetmakers out 1-No, I think they are dying

1543. The trouble is that we have not enough down to some extent; they ate not doing the power to go into those small places and condemn busine!,s they did some years ago. them, unless we cali see it is unhealthy through 1559. BJI the II on. H. F. Rieha'rdsoll-. - A water being Oll the floor, or something like that ~ la.rge number of those buildin,gs could be re--It is a pity you have not more power. In paired'-Yes, I think so. one place in Leichardt-street yesterday, I said, 1554. A certain number of the popUlation "Have you had any of the City Council authori.- could still reside there for a certain time1-Yes, ties round here~" They said, "Yes, one. of the I think so, but take the block between Swanston­officers said, 'The landlord would have to put in street and Elizabeth-stroot, and Elizabeth-street a new ventilator at the back that was broken.''' and ,Little Lonsdale-street and Latrobe-street-­Perhaps the officer had not more' power to <'do fifteen years ago that was a very low quarter, one more than that, hut putting in a ventilator is no 'of .th~ l?West.,quarters in Melbourne, frequented good. ,.' ~y cr~mllla.ls,:,iJ,nd there arc now only two houses

1544' If 't 1'£' th I f tIl mhabIted III that quarter, and they are nn-. you pu yourse ,Ill e pace 0 ,e, 'd Th h '1 f h I man who owned the place, you might say, "I", tenante at. preseI:t. e w o. cot e pace paid so much for it, and' why is i't to be con- has been bUIlt up 111. l~l.l'ge, factones. demlled~the. people are satisfied" 1-1 would not 'lI555. By .411'. ill enz~e8.-Where have the pre­like to pu'£ myself in the landlord's position. ,If VIOUS occu,Pants ~W:Htt-Most of them, I th~nk,. the tenants said that to me, I would say, "If have gO~Q~!immedln, ,tl~e, e~tern. quarter .. you: haveiiot "a better idea of living, the :sooner 1556. ]hl.the lf9}~. ll, '; 1'.; Rt~chardson.-Bave we take steps to make you live under better, cona th~y gone mto better bUlld.m~s .-~?, I do not ditions the' better." The class of tenant who thmk so. Some of the bUIldmgs m ~he .eastern would live "in' that way has to, be' protected e~d could ~ot b~ worse. No doubt, III tIme the a,gainst themselves. , CIty CouncIl WIll condemn those places I have

1545 B I Ii J" 11 ' H spoken of. . y t Le O'lb. • f!,ternverg.:-:- as any 15q7. By the llon·. J. G. A.,ikmatL.--.:.They have

Improvement been e~ected' to'l:?e, vanous houses condemned them now 1-1 mean the living places. that you referred to In your eVIde.1}cc:;on the last r think ·thoy will all be wiped out a's so()n as 0~ca5~on 1-None at all, theJ:' ar~:I)t.~H III the same they come to them, but the process is so slow. dJlapldated state, a.nd nothmg hal>', been done to 1558 By ,Mr. M e'nzies. I understand that them' , • , ,'"," c,',' , (.."Crtain of those houses ha.ve been condemned,.

1546; By Mr. ,HIi;'nzic8·.-'-Tllis refers to houses' They ha.ve had a notice posted on them-six or behind Wesley Church, I understand there has seven mont.hs have elapsed since then 1-1 can­boon :some improvement there ¥-l'be City Coun- not say on wha.t date the notice was put on: the cil.ha~ condemned a lot in that block, but th& door, there is no date on it, a.nd I do not think placeS 1 'refer to are in the block to the east of there has been any date on it. ' that. 1559. Your evidence was submitted to this

154.7. I understood you to sayt,hat the City Committee ill October. Some of those houses' Council had effected.soma improvements since you 'that. you rerened to then are still' in the saine IVel:ehere last 1-:-They have pulled down a nuIh- condition, and you said in your; evidence they bel' ()f hou~$ and.quilt factor~esJbut no !lllprOVe- were going in next week to make inquiries, Wllen lllep,t,S,ha,s beeu; made to. auy,,-houoo that was'oc- t.hooa notices were posteq ;they were supposed cupi.,e.;C:then,andjsoCcupied,:nowc:asa:::dweIling to put the place in repait'wit.li:in acertal11 time1 ,hQuse~,': . '-Within twenty-eight days. . ,

i560. Or eise the place is cOildenlDed. You c'olliplain that the notices have been posted, and the City Council ]laS refram'€'d from taking action1~W~hat 1 say is, that there has not been a notice put 011 I1ny of the houses against which .I gave evidence. Everyone of the seven notices I mentioned were put on Chinese factories, and I did not refer to those houses when I gave evi­dence before.

1561. Your complaint is that they have not posted those notices on dwelling houses 1-No, not on any place about which I gave evidence.

1562. By the HOlt. Il. F. Richardson.-Can you say who the owners of the places are 1-They are owned by numbers of persons. It is a difficult matter to find out, becau.se a,n agent might have twenty or thirty of them.

1563. By the Ch(tirmm~.-In this case, do you kno,\f the owned-No. I Imow that in nearly a.ll those cases the rents are collected by agents­one man might have twelity or thirty of them.

, 1564. It has been said the Ciliy Coum:il's powers were not sufficien~ to permit of them doing the reform work that was essential. Under Part 6 of the H~'\lth Act referring to dwelling houses, six most. important problems of ,the Housing Question are dealt with. Quoting from a work by Mr. L. V. Biggs on the Housing Ques­t,iOll-" Under Part ,6 of this Ad, referriug to dwelling houses, it is provided"---liouses unfit for habitation :-On the certifica~ of an Officer of Health, 1 " or two Medical Practitioners, a. Municip Council may declare a house or building nufit for human occupation, and pro­hibit the occupation of the same; and it may order the pulling down or removal of the same." Is there not sufficient power given to the City Council to instruct an Inspector to visit those places, and if he finds they are unfit for habi­tation, has not the City Council power to de­stroy ~-In my opinion. I think they have jbut I am not a lawyer. I would think that section gave them ample power.

1565. It is not a question so much whether the Council have acted between last October and' to­day, it is a question -whether ~he Inspector of Health under the charge of the City Oouncil carried out his duties, and has done so for a number of years, because those places have been in that condition for a number of years. Do you say the municipal officer' has negleCted his duty 1-1 think if he has done so it is mostly out of consideration for the tenants-they do not like to hunt them out.

1566. When you say that in some localities the Council have acted, and acted very strip,gently, and used their powers under the Act, and in other parts of the locality, just as ba.d, if not worse, there has been no action taken at all, what do you infer by that-is it that certain landlords are favoured by the Council f-N o. I do npt wish the Board' to draw that inference from anything I have said, but I think the Oity Oouncil is slow in its working. The inIprove~ ments that they have effected are all tending that way. They have started a.t Russell-street, aud they have condemned a number of buildings immediately behind Wesley Church, a.nd now they are extending to the other block, but it a.p-pea.rs to be slow. '

1567: Take the statement that you ma.de, tha.t houses that you brought directly under the notice of ~ the Houswg Committee. as OOiJ:1.g uufit for human habita.tiou the Council hM taken no a.ction a bout, . and ·the pi'einises occupied 'by Chinese tha.t

209

G~orge 81)($s, 19tJl May. 11114.

you d.id not brIng und.er the notice of the Com­llIittee were seized upon1-They_ have been con­demned, anci llotices posted on their doors. I cannot give any reason for that; I was wonde!­ing at that myself. There are seven places 111

that block used as Chinese factories-the Chinese sleep in some of them, aud there are othel' places round there in which people are living as dwelling houses, which are not condelllDed. .. , 1568. In those places that are occupIed, IS ilICl'e any over,.cl'owding ?-Some are so small that you cannot over-crowd them.

1569. By the Ho'll>. J. G. l1ikm.an.-Is M.el­hOlU'lH) better 01' worse tlUlll any other big city? -1 am not in a position to say, I have not tra­velled much. I have had a little experience in Sydney, and I think places are just as bad there as here, if not worse: .

1570. JJy the lIon. II. P. RichaTd.on.-Have YOLl heen in Sydney since the City Council pulled (h)\\'ll Ii In l'ge area of the slums?-Yes, I have becu there since they made those improvements in Ox ford··si;reet alld those places,

1571. You refo1' to the time before they pulled down those houses 1-Yes, that was a very bad quarter - wherethe.y are bui~ing the new street. . I do not know tlHlt it would lllako things better for me to draw a comparison between here and anywhere else-the places are there.

15'72. Are ther-e not suburbs much worse 1-1 do not know much about the suburbs; my work has Deen in the city.

1573. By, the lIon. H. P. Richardson.-Are there any other districts that you would like to show us that we did not visit ?-I do not know at present-I will let you know. ,

1574. By jl[r. 11lenzies.-Are you' taking any­thing away from your last evidence i-I wish to 'withdraw or ame~d nothing ex.cept what I have stated about that visit. .

The'witnes8 withdrew.

:". Michael Kelly, sworn and examined.

15'75. By the Ohairman.-What are yout­A plain-clothes constable stationed at South Mel~ bourne. I gave evidence ~fore the Housing Committee on the 19th of November, 1913.

1576. Have you anything to add ~-I want to make one correction at question 881, dealing with Winwood-street. I. wish to say No. 1" is a five-­roomed house, not a three-roomed house; and there is a bath, but no copper.

1577.-By the Hon. J. Steffiberg.-Was it so 'when you were there. previouslylr-Yes, but I could not get into the houae---the occupants were away. In Patterson-place, known as 'l'inpot­alley, 1; said there were about fourteen house8 there; as a matter of fact, the;ro are eleven of those tin houses. '

1578. Smce you gave your evidence ~ore the CiQmmittee,. hlj,s the munici.pal council taken any aQtion to make any hnprovement in those propel'­ties you alluded tQ ~:-:-On Saturq.aY, and yestel'­day, I went through all the places I have pre­viously visited, and I find there is only one house vacant, that is No. 1 Fitzpatrick-stroot; that house is vacant, and there is no notice to let, so I' assume t}lat it is Doot to be tenanted again. '

15,79. By the Hon. H. F. Richardson.-Has notice been served by the council on the owner ¥­I CllJll+ot sill; all loalf I\ay is ~e hou~ is vacant, and ~re 18110 not4le to let; it has apparently been clos~d by the owner without notice f;om'the

:Michael kelly, 19lih Ma.y, 1914.

I

council. In the other cases, in a few instances slight repairs have been effected, and a little paint has been' used; in~inost cases on the outside with­out touching the inside. In the cases where re­pairs'an9- painting has been done, the rent has been' put. rip on the tenant ;in some cases . Is. it week and:hp: t,o 28: 6d. a 'week. '

, 1580; '111/ 'Mr. ··Meniie8.~Were. those repairs done 'at' the ~insta:nce' ~of the' council ~~ I believe it was at the instance of the . agent or the' owner 01 .th~ pLf§perty ." " '

1581:' By :.1111'. ·Cdtter.-:-So~e got a fright at our vis~t, a~<lpainted it 'up ~~Apparehtly 'so: .' . )'582., By"the Chdihnan.~The Is. and 2s. 6d.

additiona,l r~lit has been added to the rent they were 'paying when you ·first gave your evidence 1-Yes; . a£ter certain' repairs had been eff~cted.

1583. 'By 'the Han: 'J. Slernberg:-Does that apply to the whole of the houses g-It applies. to the houses t4at have been renovated, with one exception. There are four or nve houses owned by one person ,vhich have been painted on the out­side, and noinc~Jlase of rent PRS been asked for; that)s ·in Roseneath-place. , "

1584. By Mr, Menzies.-Have the rents gone up. on the other properties that have not been re­novated ?~In a few instancQs they .have; there are three houses in McCallum-place, and the rent has been raised from 7s. 6d. to .8s. without any apparent reason. , 1585. By the Han. J. G. Ailcman.~How do you find out the rents of these places 1-Principally from the tenants. I was .requ'ested' ,by the Police Department ,to, make :theseihquiries fo:r the in~ format~on of the Commission.

1586. You went, ,into all the ,houses that were likely to be!c'ondemmJd ?..,....I visited the slum locali~ ties in SouthJ,Me:bbourne, ,

,1587. Y!CYU fQund: (jut ·the rents they~ were pay-ingf-Yes. " ,

1588. Have YO,u been aro1,1nd again to see the rents they are paying sincel-:-Yes, on Saturday and Monday last.

1589. The rent was"'i"aised in one instance with­out any improvement?-Yes, in one instance.

1590. Of,y;0UI' ."knowledge, do you .Jknow they are getting a muq,l,1 higher ,r~nt than thtiy were a few :years' 'ago(~'-y'~es; 'undoUbtedly;' houses ,are at 3."premium iil" So~\h 1\fe~bOu,rne. ,I 'was speaking to"a 'h'cfuse 'ahd .land I?-gent yesterday, and he said he had"an',average '01 'twEinty applicants., a day 'for houses;, il1rd , cannot 'supply,them. . ,--'f59':F.' lff:'aH "those' !phices were' 'done' 'away with there 'Would b~:nQ places'lor tlie ,people to live 1-TiJ:iat is-fhe "question th'at- hits' to 'be dt1alt with.

1592. ,;r:r:her~,wouJd be no'i"ooL!1 for these peopl~ ~ .:.w.I'-suppbseJ'lf "thei'e 1vEire"'500 'hOuses more m Albeit iPafk-'a:hH . "St,uth· ':M~lboqi:'ne 'generally {hey" -wcHil~FoeVte:iranted. j -. I.-~', ,,'

-15:9'3: lly fh;e~ llqn;'~lI:"Ijr: -Rickardson.-Hew fuany houses ~'wou'l:d'you coildem:t 'as un'il,t for h'abita't'ibll lin 'tlieJ 8ou'thMe'lbourne il;tunici pality' ~ -That is a big question. . In pty-opin!io~, the hbUses"Ii6:W -ih-F~fzPa:tiiqk~sti:eet iire"very bad. I a:fti p.O't Jj:il'e;pare'd', tb"'s,a:'y "il].ose hOli~es )hould 'be coniletnn:ed~'~Iit·ctfttiiin repairs 'should ';be 'effected. The j-arus 'Df 'tho~' houSe~ '-are O~(iw:"the' ,stri?et, 1iti~: the:t'ate tull ~o.I water ~:winter time; the in· sid!'l. of"the 1iou'~e'S are'in R J;l9,il,'state 'Of r~paiJ;,. ahd .if l£hi:Jse 'b:~nses'al'e l'qpaii:ed;) :t:hiJtk tU€)J sho~llibe hlitiitable. ... ,J~" -"~ - ~ •• , .. , "" .- ,... , ' ~,., ,

~594. By .l.:Lr. ~renz.ies . ...:.:'What··ua:s 'been' done m. t'h:e ·case'. '91 'the, h~ses ,Y9ii' referr:edv:to in :yo~r ·last ~yidel!~e·~-'::..!.Take· .. F:i:tzp·at'ribk-streef. ~ ,There '-ar~ lio 1'tti:pl'o'vem6nts'In ~lIDy::Of·'the·,hQuses";' N(Vl: IS

didimd.::',','itll }bi\v~~tr~t. ~1iere '8+e'rio'jmpr6'vein€nts :~ I ~ t. "-, •

effected in any of the houses; there are. t:hre~ roomed houses there. In Tichborne.:.place No. 15 had a small rOOm erected at the back, and the rent was put up from 8s. to 9s. Hd. ; No. 17 is 9s.; No. 19 is lOs. per 'week. Those houses have had slight I'epail's in the way of painting tht; fronts.

1595. By the lIon: H. F. Richardson.-Was that through the actif,)fi of the. Council ?;-I can~ not say. .. .

1596. By the lIon. J. G. Aikman.-The South Melbourne Council are fairly· active ?-They B.re. In York-street the' terrace of houses that I re­ferred to, Nos. 1 to 11, are still in the same state llS when I gave evidence six months ago; I said it yvas in a rotten state, and .it is still rotten.

1597. By Mr. l1!enzie&-The Council cannot have been very active down there ?-I am not aware whether they have taken any action; I cannot say whether it was from pressure by the council that repairs were effected; I believe it was through the agent of (he' owners that repairs wcre effected in certain ·houses. In Nos. 75-81, Y ork~street, the houses are in the same state; tlley are two-roomed houses. In Market-street the houses are in the same condition. In Ohessell­street, No.9 is now being renovated inside and out, and the rent, I understand, is put up 3s .. 6d. a week, from 6s. 6d. to lOs.

1598. By the lIon. J. G. Aik1nan.-Are those permanent tenants?, Yes; tenants, as a rule, stay a Jong time in those l;touses. The, majority of .them are ,waterside :workers and foundry men, and it does not pay them to be' here ,to-day, and away to~nlO'rrow, . Nos. 13 and -15 were painted on the

, outside, and some slight repairs;' they are still in a'dirty state''inside. Nos. 17,19, and 21 are in the same state, They are in a very dirty, neglected state, fences and woodwork going to pieces. There are Iline' persons living in No. 21. .

1599 .. , By Mr. ,.i11enzies.-W,aterside workers liye iill those heRses, and occupy th.re~roomed hORses g-.They are wate['sicle ,workers, drivers, and factory haIld-s imd foundry hands; sometimes a widow, with a family, working at- ,the factories aIld other places.

1600. 'There :are 'no coppers' and no baths~­No. • 1

, 1601 .. They are all just ,as they were1-Yes., Nos. iJ5, 37, ,and 39 are. in the same dirty condi-tion. . , . ;1602. By th;e ,!forn. J. a . .t1ikman.-AI'e they omy, d!i~~ty" ,or .unfit ,£0r habita,tion ~-I ,con~end they' ought.ito ,be renp>:ated, ,antl then they illlght possibly be fiL:/iel'~umnn habita:tion; ,but they are in such a dilapidated state now,.tha:t it is a great question, and only a medical ,man could say; but at, present' it is"jnJlirious ;to 'health'to live in them .. In' my" opinion; thqy are noCfit, .for people 'to live .in: " I" ", '

'1603. By 'the' H:on.: '.fl. P.· Richar.dson.-Are they 'YoodeIl bll'i14i.~gs.~-W;ooden buildings .with ~ron ]'00£8<;' the .houses' inc bad .inside ,and out. . ,16h4. B'jj :the Ha;t ,J.' ,0." dtkman.-Are they ;Well' drained.?-iIu· ,this iparticular .place there .is gOOd ',drainage, 'bur the' .lower ~pa:rt \of . Chessell~ street· is "a .lo:w~y,i)lgdistrict, aIld it .is, \dif!lQult ti .qpain. ,When, '~~~er:.Jal1s, it ,;\oqges in front garr!!!'l)lS ;and ,~h~ lPackyard§!.· ' " , ,\1:605., By ,~}fr. J1{enz.ies.~Y:ou <say Nos, 13 and 15 w'e1'e practi'caUy falli,ng ~to :pieces:?-Y 00, .hut some slight repairs have been effected on the out~ side only, and ,~he fronts ,have ,boon pl!-inted. Nos. '3'5., '3.7, 'and '3tl 'h~~e not bee~ :r~piiirea,; 'the. !:ents ai·£i'lOs. and 'lIs. 'There -areNos. 41 ,to ,49 ,lll the saine' 'street.; . 'tbe ient .is :7'8:"',6d, a"week, and no i'ep~itEiJi#e'bieiiC~a: ~ ~,are'rtilire'e7~ed

houses. There i.s a little place I have not given evIdence about before-Ross-place, off Clarendon­street. No.2 is a four-roomed house, no copper, no bath-a very old house, and it is in a bad state of repair; it is next to a stable, separated by a wall. In the same place there is another house. There are two persons living in that house. No. 4 is a two-roomed house; there an old lady is living by herself, The house is in a bad state. In Yarra-place the conditions are just the same as when I gave my evidence previously.

1606. By the Hon. H. F. Richardson.-That means that very little has been done since you gave your evidence ~-Very little. In McArthur-place tp.e houses are in .a filthy, dirty state. The slates are still off the roof of 'one of the houses. No im-provement has been made. .

1607. Where are the people living now who would occupy the 500 fresh houses you speak oH -Many are living in other suburbs, and their work 1,lrings them to South Melbourne; in other instances, there is a good deal of over-cro;yding, not among the smaller houses. For instance, a man will take a house of seven or eight rooms; they are poor people, and they let one, two, or three of those rooms, and you may find two families living in one of those houses. If you ask how many people are living in one of those houses it is difficult to get th,e information, be­cause they are afraid of the council and the owners qf the house. This refers to a house in :McArthur­place. In one of those houses a water-tap was pllt on, and the tenant was chm'ged Is. a week extra.

1608. By the Hon. J. G. Aikman.-Would you suggest there should be no sub-letting-you cannot blame the council for thaH-No, the council can 4al'dly stop it.. .

1609. Would you suggest the police should take action ?-The council can take action if the house is overcrowded. .,,~

5

1610. Who will draw their attention .to it '1-That is the difficulty. There are inspectors who' visit houses, but the difficulty is that when he goes there they will not say how many poeple are liv­ing there; they are frightened of a prosecution or of being put out. There is Dorcas-place. No. 2 is a four-roome~.house-no shed, ~opper, or yard'; the rent was 8s.a week. No.4 1S a four-roomed house-.-no bath, no copper; the yard is practically nil. In this case, on my visit, there were six per­sons living there. No.6 is a three-roomed house­no bath, 110 copper,' a small yard in front of the door; the rent was 8s. a week. No. 8 is a three­roomed house-no bath, no copper; 6s. a week. No.5 is a four-roomed house-no bath, no copper; rent '7s. 6d.; five persons living there. No, 3, three rooms-no bath, no copper; rent 7s: 6d.; one person living there. No.1, two-roomed-no bath, nO cop­per; two persons; rent 5~.· The wpole .of 'those houses are in a rotten conditiop.. They are in a narrow right-of-way, and next door to them is a large stable. They have no yards. The tenants have to dry their clothes in the public right-of­way; they have to sit out and watch their .clothes drying. That is' next to McArthur-place.

1611. By the Ohairman.-'-I noticed, in going to a uumber of those places, that the taps needed a plumber:s attention; ~~ at lel:\8t half-a-dozen places the tap cOllld· not· be turned off, arid, there was a continual wasti'J of water running -night and day­are there many places HIm that?-There ,are a good few places like that. The tap 'will sopn go out of order. I had two taps at my place' out of order. I asked a plumber to have· a look at them; he put on washers, :but they will not last long.

'211

1612. By the Hon. J. G. Aikman.-Is there any meter attached to those hOIl.ses~-No, they are built on pocket-handkerchief allotments.

1613. The Board of Works must be losing money through water going to waste?-Yes. I think it would pay the }.{etropolitan Board to pay an officer to go round and look at those taps.

1614. There lire officers1-Yes, but they do not repair the taps, they serve a notice, and, perhaps, the tap will run a week before it is altended to.

1615. Should the man put it right. himsj:llf~­Yes, it would pay 'well to do it, and charge the landlord. I find it is almost an impossibility to get a plumber to come down to my place for two or three hours' work.

1616. By the Ohairman.-You think the Met­ropolitan Board should have plumbers in their employment to look after the taps ~-Yes; it would pay them well; I have come across taps running full on, and the water running to waste. In Kerry­place the condition of affairs is just the same as· when I gave evidence; the rent was 11s., lOs., and lOs. for three houses. In }.IcCallum-place the rent was put up from 78. 6d. to 8s. in three houses. In Roserieath-place the rents are still. the same; some ,slight repairs have been effected on the out­side, but nothing on the inside. Convery-square, the houses are just the same as when I visited pre­viollsly. Patterson-place, the same would apply. Going on. to :Montague, in Thistlethwaite­street 1 to 9 are in a bad state of repair i no re­pairs have been effected. W olseley-street, there are eight houses with no repairs, no copper, no bath. George-street the same; there are twelve houses, the necessary accommodation is not there. v1illiam-street, the houses are in the same condi­tion. Carrington-place, the houses are in the same condition as when I gave evidence before. There is a little place called Argyle-place ; No. 1 is a three-roomed house, no bath, no copper, rent, 7s. 6d. a week; No.2, three roomed .. house occupied by the owner; No. 3 is a five-roomed house with bath and copper, the rent is 16s. a week; the front entrances to these houses is by a lalle about 9 feet wide, not pitched. Gladstone-place, off Buckhurst-street, is in the sanie condition as before. Milsom-place, there are two houses in the same condition. Stoke-street, all the houses are in the same condition as before. Essex-place, the houses 'are in the same condition. St. J'ames-Iane, Nos. 2; 4, 6, 8, there has been ap­parently no improvement. In 4, 6, -and 8, there are six persons living in each; they are three­roomed houses, and there are three persons in No. 2-that is; twenty-one persons for four houses. In Winwood-street, No.1 is a five-roomed house, with a bath but no copper. Nos. 7 and 9 have been renovated, also· Nos: 10 and 12; the other houses are in practi.cally the same state. . No. 33-there are eight persons living there, two families. The sasnes of the windows are so rotten that they will not be!J,r gl?-ss, and no gl!J.ss has been put in; the same people. are still there that were there when I gave evidence before this Committee. Thirty­four houses on the .north· side of Gladstone-street have been pulled down, aiJ,d the land takep. over by the Government for the ;R,ailway Department.

1617. BY.111r. Menzies.-Did you refer to any of those houses before ?-Yes, the land is taken over by th~ Gov:e.rnment~ I think large storage sheds are to be bUIlt there. There are nine houses -eight and a shop purchased by a' .private firm i:o. Ferrara-street, and those houses are pulled down, and a factory is nfrw being erected there......:..the Union' Canning Company. .

1618. Those houses have not been Imlled down fls'the result of yOUl~ evidence?-N o.

1619. B!i the Chai7·lIw/n.~What was the scope of your iuvestigation-Jid you have 1lll oppor­t;unit:y of visiting the "thole: of South l:IelbOllrne'l -:-Yes, I ,visited South Melbourne find :Montague, but did -qot see' the inside of every house.

1620.:I;£ad you time to visit it alH-The last occasion was a hurried visit-my notice was very short. To make an accurate visifyou would have to go to some' houses two 01' three times before you would filld' the occupants 'in,and if you have not time to do' that, you ,would have to take what iri­formation you could get from the next-door neigh-bour. .

1621. Have you got aU the infol'ma'tion that could be got from Sonth Melbourne and Mon­tague?-Yes, in my opinion. I visited the ,smallest and worst houses in l\iontague and South Mel­bourne.

1622. Is there any room 101' building in South Me1bourne?-There is an occasional vacant block, but very few; the only vacancies there are are on the St. Rilda-road flat, where they propose putting a metropolitan' market.

1623. South Melbourne is fairly well built on? "'-:'Yes, that includes South Me]bourne, l\iontllgue, and Albert Park.

1624. By the Han. H. F. Richardsan.-How much land is set apart for the market ~-Sixteen or seventeen' acres, I believe.

1625. Is it all iit for residential purposes?­It is a bad foundation-I remember when it was a tip.

1626. That would not be healthy to build ou~­Not to put dwellings on; I remember when de-composediish was. put there.. III

1627. By, the Ghai1'1nan.~We1'e any inquiries made after you give evidence from the City, Coun­cil ,regarding your evidence, 01' by allY officer or 1andlord?-Not to me. ~Iy evidence was pub­lished in the local paper, but the councillors did not approach me in any way, nor did the muni­cipal officers. ,I understand municipal! officers made a visitati6n to the houses in MontaguY~;'ibut I do not know what the result of that visit was.

1628. No improvement has 'been made to any gTeat extent ?-N ot to any great extent. I was a.sked about the condemnation of those houses. J: would not· like to say I wo:u1d condenin nny of them, except those in McArthur-place, which in my opinion, are not fit f01: human habitation­that also applies to those inDorcas~place. , 1629. By the Han. J. O. Ai7cman:-Those al'e

the only h011ses you would condemn. Have you drawn the city officers' attention to t.hose places? -Yes; where the places have been badly kept and dilapidated I have told the inspectors the places were dirty; I have not dra'ivll their attentlon to the condition of the houses as to repairs-that was not part of my business'--there are three inspec­tors in South Melbourne.

1630-31: illy lI.1·. j\fenzies.-At ques~ion 1019: " Is it aware of .their dilapidated condition ?-Well, the council has at the present time two or three inspectors, whose duty it is to go round the mi.mi­cipality B;nd atte:nq. to these and other matters­for instance, to the sanitary arrangements, and all that sort of thing." Have you any knowledge whether these men have examined the properties you have' referred to, and reported upon them?­No, I have no knowledge as to that. The difficulty I under~tand with the councils is this: Suppose the.ra is a house 'with bad ,ventilation, there are c~r­tnin.l'epairs to be tnade j the health officers go to

6

the owners and say, "I require ventilators put in in your place; it wants painting and repairing." If the tenant says, " I am not prepared to do that," then has the council the 'authority to compel a manto make those improvements-a house may be. in bad repair, lnit not nnfit for human habi­tation.

.The witness withdrew.

On '1'6smning ai 2.30 p.m.-

J mnes Bn rke, s,,:orn find examined.

l(j:32.'By the Ohairman.-What are you ?-A constable, stationed at Port Melbourne.

1633. You gave evidence before the ScIect Com­mittee which inquired into the Housing Problem? -:-Yes.

1634. Do yon tender that evidence to this Cam­mission ?--: Yes. I might say that. for the most part ,I was merely cOl'l'oborating Constable Bl'OWn'g evidenee. .

1635. Have you miything to add to the evidence you gave bci£ore the Committee?-Nothing what-

, , ever. 1636. Haxe you uny cOlTcctions to make?­

There is one c01'l'ection which I ,,,ould like to make. In reply to question 1190 in, the Report of Proceedings of the Select Committee, I am re­ported as saying, "T1H.ire are eight persons there altogether; 'and, in anothm' four-roomed place at 10S Dow-street there are two families consisting of nine persons." It should read, "116 Dow-stroot," instead of " lOS." ,

1637. By.M1·. illenz1:es.-You stated inyour pre­vious evidence that there had not been hal£-a­dozen houses condemned there in the last eight rellrs ~--That was np to tll() time I gave evidence. Since then there haye been a good number con­demned. The council ]1a8 served ,n'otices on a lot of hflye beon iuformed of that ill many ea'ses, by the oWIlers the1J1selves, but the Humber of notices 8C1Ted has not beell divulged.

The w'iiness withd1'ew.

Hoderick Browu, sworn and' examined.

1638.;By t1~e Chair111(1,n,--;-What are you 1-A constable- stationed at Port Melbourne, I gave evidence before. the Committee-I have no altera­tions to make;

1639, Have you anything to add 7-Nothing materiaL Since I gave evidence there has been ,1, ,great improvement in Port Melbourne. The Council have been very active, and some of the landlords have improv.ed "some of the houses that I mentioned in my evidence.. ,

1640. By'1l1r. 1l1enzies.-Has not the Council had some representations made by the people living in those properties ~~I' have heard so. I have not, spoken personally. I think, since I gave evidence, the Council have condemned' some-th~nglike eight, houses. ,

1641. By the Hon. J. G. Aikman,-The Port Melbourne CouJci1- are .doingall in their power to keep the evil dow:n-taking into consideration the congestion ,of 'the place 1-I think they are doing al,l they can. I do not see why the 'Port Melbourne Council should supply houses for men wor~ing in other' di~trict.s. There are some thousands of men working at Newport, and a great numbel' of. thOll& m""n Hv~ in South RnQ.

Port Melbourne. Tho question is: Should not Newport provide houses for those men where I;here is plenty of vacant land.

1642. By the lIon. II. P. Richardson.-Yon dId not speak favorably of the land at Fisher­men's Bend fiS being suited for dwelling houses? -No, I am still of the same opinion ..

1643. That is the only land vacanH-No, there are it number of vacant blocks in Port Melbourne; apart from the difficulty of getting Fishermen's Bend thro'wn open, I do not think it would be suit-able. There would be no. difl1·' culty in finding 200 vacant blocks iu Port Mel· bourne. Instead of utilizing the Bend, if they took over the pr.esentt;. footba'll Siite, which is fenced in, and only used a few times in the year, there is a splendid site fol' el'ectIng workmen's homes.

1644. By thk Hor~. H. P. ·lUcha~·dson.-How . many acr~s are there in the football ground 1-1 do not know, but I should think there is room for 100 houses there.

1645. By the Hon. J. Sternberg.-In your previous statement you said there were 517 3· roomed tenements occupied by 2,036 p.eop}e (Question 1073). Are those tenements stIll III

the same state that they were 1-N 0, there has been a good deal of improvement. The Health Officer has been visiting It number of those lIouses, and in a number of cases improvements have been effected, and the rents have been also in­creased.

1646. By lllr. 2Ifcmies.-To any considerable extent Y-No, 6d. or Is. a week.

1647: By the Hon.. J. 8ternberg.-Yoll a~so stated' there were· 992 4-roomed places occupied by 4,581 people ~-The same state of affairs exists

,at present. 1648. Those houses have been improved 1-No,

only some of the houses I mentioned in my ev.i­dence as unl1t have been improvea. The Coun· cil have practically agreed to my .evidence. Ac· cording t.o the paper of the 21st April-[hand­ing in the same J-they agreed that their officers had too much to do to attend to the sanitary conditions of the houses.

1649. By the llon. H. F. Ric}uirdsoll.-Whom clid they suggest should carry out the work'l­I should say from their remarks they want in· tlep!;iudent officers; that t.he matter should be taken out of the hands of the municipal officei.'s.

1650. By 1.1lr. l~[enzies:-You .say there is 8,n excellent opening there" and .the land is\ available for dwcllings-cnri you offer 'a11Y reason why private enterprise has not embarked 011 that work?-The high priec of labour and material, 1 shOuld say.

1651. By the Hon. J. G. Aikman. How would that be overcome if they took the football gr.ound away ~-I do not take it away; I give them another site on the lagoon reclaimed area, which would be more suitable. The Council want a bit of the Fishermen's Bend to erect houses-l do not agee with that. 1 say. let them have the football ground, which is not a recreation ground for the people-you cannot get in without paying.

1652. You would recommend taking the foot­ball ,ground until the other allotments are built on 1-1 would recommend taking the present foot· ball ground, and. using the reclaimed land, which is very suitable for that sort of thing.

1653. If they will not build on the' 200 allot­ments, would they build on' the ()~her.1 The Council have not the power over the other al­lotments.·

213

1654. By J.llr. Ootter. Prior to building houses on the football gronnd, would you }lot shift Kitchen's factory?-Ye.s, there is only. a road dividing it from the existing houses. KIt­Che!l'S is not altogether objectionable; it might not be a pleasant smell, but it is not unhealthy.

1655. Prior to putting 400 honses there, you would make some recommendation to Parliament to have that removed 1 Yes, that something should be done to improve it.

1656. By the lIon. H. P. Richardson.-Are there many prostitutes in _Port MelbonrneY-Not one living in Port Melbourne.

1657. Are you prepared to express an opinion as to prostitutes being kept in one area 1-No, I would not care to express an opinion. I have beeu there twenty-three years, and I am sure there are no prostitutes and no brothels there. 1 think I was the only constable that brought a case before the Court, and that is over twenty years ago ..

Edward William Sharp, sworn and examined.

1658. By the Ohairmall .. -What are you Y­Plain-clothes constable, stationed at Carlton.

1659. You gave evidence before the Sel€Ct Committee on the Housing Question 1-.:Yes.

1660, Do you tender t.hat evidence to this C~m. mission ~-Yes, but I will ask that a correctlO~ be made. \Vhen readin.g the proof of my eVI­dtmce that was sent to me, I noticed that what I had said with regard to Mr. levers had been misconstrued in some way, and I came here and asked if I could correct it, as, although I knew that he was either the agent for those houses, or tliat he or his family was the owner of them, I could not say which ones he owned persO~a~ly, and that is what I wished to convey when glvmg evidence previously. In reply to Question 1337, you Slty "Some of the very worst houses m Carlton 'are owned by the levers family, I said, "I do." What I meant was that they were owned by him or some members of his family, 0'1' that he was agent for those properties.

:'166i.' By jlfr. ill emies.-Which question do you desire' to amend i-Question 1329-" Does he ~wn many dilapidated houses." In reply t.o that, I said, " He does. I can honestly say, and do say, that he owns some of the worst property in Carlton." 1 know ·the houses that they col­lect the rent from, but I do not know the pro­perty that he owns personally.

1662. BII Mr. Solly.-Are you positive that one of the family does own those houses, or is Mr. levers only the agent 1-The family owns some of the houses, and they are agents for the re· loainder.

1663. By J.v[r, .illenzics.-One ,hund~ed houses are rean y owned by the levers f anuly 1-Yes; but there are other houses which lie is agent for, and for which he collects the rents.

1664. Are there any other corrections you wish to make t-No; but I would like to refer, if I am permitted, to the denial <if my evidence by

. Councillor levers, which appeared, I think, in the three pap.ers-the A.ge, the Argus, and the Herald-two or three days after I gave my evidence, which was on 3rd December. In those letters he stated that there ,vere no houses in a. bad state of repair owned by liim .

. 1665. Do you pr~duce the letters ~-I produce the letter which appeared in the Argus on 4th Decem bel', under the heading of "Slums of Mel­bourne-Councillor levers replies." The letter reads-'.:Jnterviewed last night with reference to

Edwvd wnua:m8hll.rp, , 19th ~iIY, "1914.

the statement made by Plain-clothes· Constable Sharpe before the Housing ,Committee that the levers family owned some of the worst property ill ',Melbourne, CounciHor George levers' said­, The only property I own in Bouverie-street is a house ahd shop, which I let for 14s. a week. I am agent, for a three-roomed 'cotta,ge standing on a piece of land 26 feet by 75 feet, arid it is to that that Constable Sharpe must refer. It is 'occupied by a Chinese market-gardener. It was done up l&st year, and passed by Dr. Jamieson, who was, at the time, the Oity He!tlth Officer. He said it was all right, and I have had no com· plaints al?out it. 'My clerk collects. the rell,t, and had orders ,to, make a note ,of any needed repairs. It is owned by awid9w, who (lould not afford to rebuild on the la:p.d. M:Y family owns Ii good many houses in CarltOll, but ,none which is not in good repair. Such a st&tel,llent is ridiculous.' " With regard to ,the property that I: do kr~ow his family owns, after this CommiS'Sion sat, on 8th December, five days after I gave my 'evidence, Mr. levers got men 'fO work on his places in Elgin-street, Carlton; also ill' the llarp of Erin­lane, and the house at the rear of Bouverie­street, which he re£el's to in his letter, and which he admits owning, and he has renovated those up with paint, and so on-in one case with tar on the wall.:....and he '1}as charged a higher rent for them. He cannot deny that, ever since the 8th, when I first noticed it, he has had men going about doing up his property.

1666., It has done some gooa then ~-Yes, it, has.

1667. Have those IIlen been working CORC tinuously since 8th Dec;ember ~_Yes. One house which he ;renovated was occupied by a man cany­ing, on t~le business of wood ml'lrchant. There was a wood yard at the rear, aI).d the place was owned by the levers family. The water had been run· ning in the doorway for years, and the flooring, for 18 inches inside the door,' had gone in parts. He has had new pieces of Qoard pui? in tb,ere, pai?ched up the, fro:p.t of the ' put on soIlle p&int, and raised the rent. that letter I read was written, he said he had no property in a bad ,state of repair, and I thought it was ,only fair ,to IIlyself to refer to what he has be~n .qoi~g.

1668. By the CAairman;-Is there. anything else you wish to refer to-1-When before the Select Committee, I gave evidence regarding the houses in Finiay-pill-ca, question 1201. I stated that those !.touses were in a most dilapidated state, and should all be pulled down. Since then, t1;le housl'ls have beet}. condemned, and, with the e'J!,ceptioJl 'qf the two-storied,·· bluestone building" they h!].v~ all been pulled down-completely de­moJishEJd. ,'l'hey have been bOl1ght and se:p.t u'p to sonie of the country stations to ,build stables with. , , ' ,

1669. By the lIon. H. -Ii'.' Riclwrdson . .....:..Who were ,th~ owners of 'those places ~-Julius Grant was the' owner of that property. '

J~7Q. W40 is he?-He is the manager 'of the Bert ~jj,ill'lY Theatrical Company at the King's' Theatre.

1671.' They were' pulled down by the action of tpe City qouncil1-Y e~, and the whole lot were sold for £40: ' The two-s,toried house, whicli was not pulled down, has been renovated right throug1}out, with the·' exceppion of the room underneath the floor. 'That is practically a kitcf'.tell, and should be filled up. They have just' completed'it, and are going to let it. It is not tak~nyet.

16.72. Why do you consider the underground portion of the place should be, filled up 1-'--On a'ccount' of the dampness-:..it would be unhealthy.

1673. By the Chairman.-Is it proposed to let that place' for living purposoo1-Yes;' it is in the house. .

1674., But they may use it 'only for storing old things there ~-That is true; they may not live there.

1675. By' tl~e Hon. H. P. Richardson.-Are they going to rebuild on that land 1-,.They are not allowed to rebuild. This is one of the places on which I cOllsider they should be allowed to build workingmen's homes.

1676. What do you mean when you say, "they are not allowed to rebuild "~_The City Council will not allow them. '

1677. Why?-They are unsuitable, for build· ing purposes, according to the Council.

1678, And you consider they are suitable 1-­Yes, I com!ider they c0111d buH4 five up-to-qate homes on them. The City Council would allow them to build several factori!;ls on that ground. There is one dwelling there now, and if it is good enough for one dwelling, I cannot see any reasOn why they should prevent anyone from buildin.g good homes there.

1679. You stated in your previous evidence it was a lane on ground 122 feet by 53 feet; is that 12~ f~et deep 1-No, 122 feet long. I consider they cQuld build three or four rO(jms on that land, and have 12 feet at the side of them for air space. They cannot build, I understand, on land under 100 feet deep, but my opinion is that, if there were houses on that land with 12 feet of air'space at the side', they' would be healthy con­dition-s, and the homes would oe good enough for anyone to live in.

1680. By theChairman.-Is it a regulation of the City Council that no one can build on a piece of land unless it is 100 foot deep 1-1 think it is _ the last building regulation they have passed. I know one man who submitted a plan of a g(Jod up-to·date· house to take the place of a house that was condemned, and they- refused to allow him to build on the land. They will, however, allow him to build a small factory.

1681. Is there not a reserve very close to this piece of land you are speaking of ~-Yes, ArgylH­squarl:l:

1682. Thab is used as a reserve for children, is it not ~-No, that :reserve is lower down-Lin-coIn-square. ,

,1683. By Mr. Menzies.-Do you know the exact grounds of the- objection of, the City Coun­cil to this man rebuilding ~-They will not allow anyone to build on a piece of land mileS'S it is 100 feet deep. This land is only 53 feet deep, but I consider you could put up a spl~mdid house on that depth, and, in my orinion, it would 'be more healthy for the houses to be built on that idea than Oll the other. On the Qther plan they could build two-storied houses or single-fronted houses right up against one anoth!!r, with np air space between the walls at ail, and I consider that would be un1;lealthy. ,

1684. I~ might be dangerous, to suggest that the minimum space should be furthe,r reduced­that is the very thing we are aiming at increas­ing. It would be a bad thing to ~uggest, ,fo.r instance, that th~ IOO-ft.depth should be JPo~h­fied. You would be asking thelI). to allow y9n 't;o buil4 on a piece of land ,that was only half the depth, with i?he idea of getting. air SP!1ce at the side. It might lend itself to abuse ?-If you are going to insis~ on the land being 100' feet de~p, and, the buildings are erected on that plan, it will ,be just. as congested, and I should think more unhealthy than the way I suggest-not ,~ much depth, but with air ,space at the side.

......

1685. I think that is a. proposition that might very well be brought before the City Council ,-­There is a lot of ground in Carlton on which the houses are all condemned, and on which, I think, workingmen's homes, <Jr, in fact, homes for anyone could be built, but for the fact that the ground does not comply with the City Coun-cil's requirements as regards depth. .

1686. By tlbc. Han. II. F. Kichardson.--Is there any call for a lot of factories at Carlton ~­There were two .houses pulled down in Little Car­digan-street--wooden cottages, which were very dilapidated, and which, no doubt, should have been condemned. The man submitted a plan for two nice cottages, which could .have been built theTe, but he was not allowed to build them. rhe only thing he could do was to put up one factory. That factory has been passed, and it really is a disgrace. It is constructed of, second­hand bricks and timber, and is neither of use nor ornament, in my opinion. If that is allowed to go on, the whole place will be spoiled. Next door to hi:(Il there are two houses which have been renovated, which will stay there for a number of years, but which have not better conditions. The man could have got l~s. a week easily for the houses for which he submitted plans. If the land is good enough to have a renovated house on, it is good enough for up-to-date houses, which are sewered, and have baths, and everythin,g else.

1687. By l]:[r. Jl{enzie8.-1 suppose the Oity Council is aiming at a better state of affairs, and, whilst that is, in my opinion, an anomaly, I sup­pose the view they take is that, as the houses had to be renovated, it is possibly not going to remain there for any length of time. In the case of an entirely new building, they, no doubt, think it is necessary to have ample minimum space.~­'l'hat maybe so, but as long as the man liKes to keep t.hose renovated houses next door to the fac­tory I have referred to in a good state of re­pair, they will remain there without. any hiudrance. .

1688. It is an anomaly; I am satisfied about that would have prefelTed, and I think any one would have preferred to have seen two fine cottages going .:uP on that land instead of that eyesore of a factory.

1689. By the Han. H. P. Riehw·dson.-And this property, I understand., is near a recreation reserve ~-Yes, the street comes out on the re­serve, close to the main street. It is a through rltl'eet, not a dead right-oI-way. .

1690. By the Cha't1'lIuin.-What street is that ill ~-Little Cal·digan-street. There are other houses in that 'Street which I might refer to .. There were four houses which were condemned­two were pulled down, and a nice factory is being built on one site by :nfl'. Stacey, the scale-maker. Next door to him, I suppose., another single fac­tory will go up, and the same right throu,gh th€J street.

1691. And you think this is s~itable as a re­sidential area 1-1 do; if you allow the people to build houses as I suggested, with air space at the side, iustead of insisting on the 100-ft. depth.

1692. By 11fT. lIfenz'tes.-You would not advo­cate lessening the area at all, but you would give t.hem the right to have In ore space on the side by cutting off some of th€l depth ~-:-Yes. I WGuld not· advocate lessening the minimum area.

1693. I do not think it would be wise to sug­gest that the minimum space should be reduced, but the proposition to hav€) more space on the side instead of having 100-ft. depth might be a very sensible one 1-I do not suppose that any one would be allowed to build on a smaller area,

but in the casl'l' or a piece or land 16! feet by 100 feet deep, if you take 50 reet off the depth you still give them a fair yard for a three-roomed house, b~throom, copper, and everything up to date, and then you would have the extra space at the side.

1694. You would not advocate lessening the minimum area, but you would advocate alterin,g the shape~-Yes. I might say that, in regard to the majority of the lanes about Carlton, they are all about 50 feet deep; that is where those places could be built.

1695 .. By Mr.' Cotter.-The majority of the lanes are pitched and well looked after, are they not ~-Yes, and well lighted up, too.

1696. An~ any of those buildings facing the lanes g-The backs are facing the lanes. Of course, it is all sewered. It was like that before t4e sewerage came along.

1697. I think the owners of the buildings should make representations on the matter to the City Council1-I understand they have done so, and they cannot get anything definite· at alL

1698. By the Chairman.-Has there been any great improvement in the houses concerning which you gave evidence before the Select Committee 1 -I mentioned a number of houses in LIttle Queensberry-stree~; some of them have been done up-papered and painted. They were con­demned, but when they were papered and painted they were passed.

1699. Has the landlord in that iustance raised the rent ~-No.

1700. Do you know any iudividual cases where that has been done ~-The only two places I kno~ of are 'the wood yard and the other place I re­ferred to, owned by the levers' family. . 1701. Carlton is a big boardin,ghouse district, is it not 1-Yes, and I would like to refer to that matter, and to 'the people who are going out of these houses that are condemned. A man or a woman will. rent two or three large two-storied houses, and will let the rooms to people who· can­not get houses. When they are put out of the houses, they have to go into these rooms with their famil.ies: Now, these praces have yards 15 feet x 17 fe;et, with only one closet, and all these families have to use that one closet and the one common bath;. and so on.

1102. By lb. CoUe1'.-Does that occur in Carlton ~-Yas, in Cal'digan-street,Carlton. One person rents three two-storied houses. He sub.lets them to other tenants at a higher rental than he is paying his landlord.

1703. By the Chairman.-The original tenant sub-lets rooms to families, do you say?-Yes, they will let a room to a man, his wife, and two or three children, as the case may be. .

1704. Take the case you have referred to; what rent does he pay 1--'The places are situated at Nos. 52 and 54 Cardigan~street, and they are being let as furnished rooms. They pay the land­lord £1 5s. a week rent. There are 'ten people living in No. 50, and there is only one closet. They are paying from 5s. to 8s. 6d. a room, and there are eight rooms. At Ss. 6d. it works out that that person is receiving £3 8s. a. week rent from the tenants. However, some of the rooms are let at 5s., and some at 6s., so, taking an average, it would work out at about £2 lOs.

1705. By the Hon . • 7. SteTnberg.-Are those rooms always let 1-There is a very gre·at demand for them. . '

1706. Have those couditions eXIsted for any length or time )TIore particularly since the honses have been condemned. They canuot gdt

10

houses, and have to go into those places. Some of the people are respectable, and ,some are Ull­

fortunates. , 1707. lJy the Chai·l:ma'Jl.~What al't~ the oblig.a­tiOllS of I;he original tenant to the sub-tenants m, regard to the apartments let t,O them. ,Does she keep the rooms clean for them ?-N'o, each tenant cleans up her own apartment.s,

1708. Are they furnished apartments 1-Sol11e are furnished, and some unfurnished.

1709. And, according as to. whe~h~r ~hey are fttrnished or unfurnished, they pay hlgher or lower rents ~-Yes, and the front rooms cost more, also. ,

1710. Then the original tenant has nothing to do really but simply draw her rent from the sub­tenunt in respect of those furnished apartments Yes, and keep that part of the place clean which is outside the apartments.

1711. Would yon say a great number of places such as that exi~ted in Carlton 1·-Yes.

1712. What are;~ is covered hy those places 1-I should say it extends from Grattan-street down to Victoria-street. Drummond-str{)et IS' all let as lodging houses. ,

1713. It would be Gl'lLt-tan-street north to Vic­toria-street south 1-Ye.s.

1714. Does it extent eaRt and west. as' well ~-No. Cltrdigan-stl'eet is the principal st.reet for that ki nd of, thing. ,

1715. And you say a great 11lunber of people exist nudel" those conditious?-Yes.

1716. Do.you consider there is ovel'cro\~dilig to any ,great extent. in those places'i-That IS where the' overcrowding takes place, I consider.

1717. \Vhat. class of people'are they, a,s ~t rule '1 ---There are good, people and ~ad people.

1718. Are they al'tisans ~-Yes, some of them. 1719. And married people;~-Yes, married

couples. There are married peoplewit~l their children and 'sometimes couples not marned, ,It

ov~l' we, how, they can accommodats the people on the premises.. < • •

1720. By Mr. 1i!cJlzl,eo.-The sam~ary"colldl­tions must 1;>e disgusting ~-I should llnagln,~ so, I have b8en in some of the, bedrooms, and", the chamber is generally full-in the place v..:hel'C they, eat,ulId live. 'rlm,t i,s how they do thl,ngs.

1121. It seems to me It IS the< very worst lorm of overcrowding 1-1 consider it is, and) of cours~, thev hal'c beeu (:ompelled to go there; i:he1'o ,}S

no '~ther place for them tQ go. 1722. Jjy the floll. ll. P. Richard.oil,,-Ihs

that, kind 'of thing been increasmg of ·1'ece1ll; yeal's 1-Yes. ' . 1723. 73:1,11[,1'. Jlellzi" .• ,--\Vhat area do you say it covers ?-It. i3~ principally dovm the lower eud of Carlton. near Victoria,stl'eet, where that occurs. Vi~toria-street is a splendid street ..

1724. By .the Cha!il'man.-Do you ~llOW of any case where 11 man has taken a fnrmshed apart­ment-one' room-and he, his wife, and two or three children as the ease may be, have had to eat, live, and 'sleep in that 1'00111 1-They do that in those houses., ~ , 1725. Do they cook their food in t·he kitchen,

and a lot of them cook it in their room if there is a fireplace.

1726. And the children and all of thel!l sleep in Olle room 7-Yes, the children .sleep \nth the parents, '.'

1727. How many such cases of furUlshed, house:; sLlch as you have mention~d have. come. under your direct knowledge, say, 111 C:ardlgan.street 7-­There is one large terrace, Wll1C~l extends ,from the hotel, to levers-place. That IS all ~~rmshed houses. Tliey ate two-storied plac~s.

1728. By the H on. J. Ste1'nberg.-Are there n large number of these large houses sub-let in rOOm8 1;0 tenants either as flll'nished or unfurnished apartments ~-Yes, a n~l the 'Qcople who occuPy them fU'e those who WIsh to hve close to the Clty 011 account of their work, 01' else so as to be near the big 'J)ulrkets, where they eHIl procure their household necessaries cllOnpl)'.

1729. To your knowlodg~, is this sub·letting fairly common ~-There if! a. lot of it being done.

1'730. Then it is an incentive to grind the faces of these poor people ~-Yes.

1'131. By 11!?·. Menzies.-IIow many people would he' effected by thesc conditions which VOl! hm'c outlined ?-I cannot say as to the t9tal ';Illlllhol', but: there must bc a great many. '

1',32. Hundrcds 01' thommnd~"?-Not thousands, but; probably hundrcds.

H33. Can you get the information us to the total number living 11l1tlel' such conditions ~-I think 80.

17oJ·L B'I/ ihc fIon, . .l. 8lc1'I!.l)(;'/'{/.-I think wc will have to yisit these places ?-In some of these places, of course, the 'woms are kept as clean as a new pin. " '.. .

1735. By N,J'. Richrmlso-n,-l suppose tins sys­tem of livlug leads 1,0 n gl'eat deal of immorfllii.r~ --I would not like to say that;,

:1736. lfy the Hon. J. Slwrnbwr,q.-Thcl'e. must; be a tendency that wlIy?-Of (;OUI'80, the chll(hen \Vonln only be ,Young eh ildl'en.

1737. By J1l1'. (}oUe1'.-How ,;'ould theim, people mmwge wit,h such SCUllt,)' samtnry aeCOlll­modation Oil Sundays find holidays, when tllC 'whole family wouM "be home:It once ~-That is one of the thiugs I cannot understand. I suppose the)' utilize the' conveniences in their rooms, :md illC'll wflit for !lll opportunity to gel, !lcC!esi' to the wni:er closet.

1738. Yon J11Clltioneu ill ,Yonl" evidence that II

lal'gc llumbel·. of. p.1'ostitu~es were sc~ttered t111'oughout tIllS dlstrlCt?- 'i' es, they reSIde ltl

t.1lCse houses. 1739. You lIlean the\' fJl'~ s(!uttered about ill

hou.ses of this kind ?-Some nrc, yes. • 1'740. Do they 1i,,0 ill. the saHle houses as thoso

respeetahle l11,;1p'ietl people?-Yos. They a I'U

~eatt(:l'Ccl 1101'0 and 11101'e :tmobg these llOllses I'ight; through Oal'li:on. , ' . " ' 1741. Would you appro\'o of tlle prostItules bo­"illO' restl'ieted to a ceriain dist.ricd-Certt1inly. ·"'·1~1'.I:2. Y~u think that wonld be desirable~-Xo~. They shoHld also ,be' lie~!ls~d. 11; was onc of the WOl'st th,il,1gs possible ~\;hen these women were tUl'I1cd 6il[. of the city proper, as. there can b~ no supervision of them nt. nIl !l01\'. They are. l111xeil lip now with respectable people,. and come 111 cou­tuctwith 'yOUllg children, and thus cannot be othcr­'ivi:::e than harmful.

1'743. Of C0111'80, )'on take no steps to interfcre with these women so long HS they belll\\'e them­selves~-That i~ so. ,Ve leave them nlone unless two get into one house, but then ,,,e shift them along. However, they only move along t? ftllotllel' suburb: and they are all right then untIl u com­plnint'is made to the lo?al police, ';,hen they will bc ngnin movcd 011. 'Ihey are stmply huuted backwards and forwards.

1744. Are there many Chinese living in these common lodging-houses ~-No.

J H5. Not in these terraces ?-There are a iot ' ~.f Chinamen ill Carlton. ,

'1746. ])0 not thoy live more together without 1'nixing with EUJ'openlls ?-If' :::0, they generally. have European ,\,omen with them, hut t,hcy seldom nllve rows or anything of that kmd.

11

1747. And your idea is that it would be n mis­tnke to condemn a large number of the smaller places until new houses nrc built?-Yes, nnd they ~hould be allowed to build dwelling houses such as I have already referred to. There is one pro­perty Ileal' Oardignn-street which has becn there as long as I cnn rcmember, and which I desire to call particular attention to. It is the second­hand .dealer's storc, belonging to n mnn named Frieberg, and the pInce has never been cleaned out since he has been there. There are great hcapR of rubbish and old iron, and the whole place is infested with rats. I consider t.he premises should be removed in the interestR of public health. It is near Victoria ·and :MadeIine street s, find he tween the rubbish and the rats it is renny a terrible place, littered all oyer with all sorts of rubbish.

1748. IhJ the Hon. J. Slernbe1·y.-I suppose it passes as a marine dealer's store?-Yes.

1749. It is extraordinary that the Oit.r Oouncil docs not take steps to deal with such a place?-It· is in a disgraceful state, and it is Ycry un11eahhy fo1' the neighbourhood. It should bc removed, and two decent houses could be O1'ected upon the land. I cannot sec why it has been allowed to remain there, as there arc three dwelling houses adjoining and people living in them.

1750. By the Chairman.-It must be very bad for the people next dood-It is very bad indeed. :r mny also sny that it is right opposite the Oity Baths.

1751. By the Hon. J. StembC1'g.-The st.ate of affairs that ;you have disclosed in your evidence to-day points to the worst form of rack-I'enting that we have come in contact with?-Yes. .

1752. Evidently the persons who sub-let can charge ,.vhat.p';·C!, they like for the rooms, and en­force any couditions they choose upon the occu­pan ts ?-Yes, and they do it.

1753. And chnrge according' to their own sweet will ?-As I have said, the charge for '111ost of these rooms is from 58. to 8s. a week, but in SOlUe' cases where there arc In.rge front rooms, of COUl'se they get more. I know also that if 111any 'of these people could get a cottage at a reasonable rent they would jump at the chance.

1754. They are charging the tenilllt.s at least 100 POl' cent. as their profit on the transaction ?-Yes. I have mentioned here Oanada-lane. The houses in • this lane have been condemned, but in regard to Nos. 5 .and 7, these have been practically nlude illto one house by nlterations, and more rent is being charged fol' the 'one li'ouse thaW'was pre­viollsly obtained for the two. The presel'lt tenants 11 I'e paying 16s. a week for the house, whereas be­fore the two tenants pnid about 12s. a week. One paid 7s., and the other 5s., but there is no bath or other convenience. The people who have been pa,Y­ing 168. a week since it has been renovated are leaving to-day, I understand.

1755. By Jlir. Cotter.-Is it not because these premises arc not allowed to be l'e-erected, if pulled down, that the ownerH fight so hard against. demolishing them?-Yes. In many cases they have asked to be allowed to 'erect other houses on the land, but they have not been allowed to do so.

1756. But if they were allowed, then it lot of these old buildings would be pulled down, ~nd new ones put up ?-Iam positive there would be. There is no doubt that if they were pulled down nice little cottages would be immediately erected, because there is such a great demand for them.

1757. By the Hon . .T. Sternberg.-Of' course, there is one reply to that, and it is, as you have stated, that the owners are putting these buildings in 1\ etate of repair9-Yee ..

1758. I underskmd they have twenty-eight days' notice if the builtliJlgs flrc to be condemned, and, therefore, they have a chalice of putting t.he houses into decen(; repaid-Yes. The last two places that 1 have referred to-Nos. ;, und 7, Oanada-Iane­are brick houses. The majority of these places arc wood, and can be repaired, but the brick houses 1I1'e very hard to repair. You cannot raise the roof of a wood house and repair it with brick. Of course, they arc not allowed to be rebuilt with wood. Some houses have been pulled down in Canada-Tane since this Oommission sat last, but there still remains the fact that the owners of the land cannot build houses there again. This locality lil near the city play-ground on one side, and Argyle-squfll'e on the other, and it must be very healthy.

17 :J!l. Heprcsentations should be made to the Oi ty Oouncil in rcgard to this locality as to the advisability of a variation of the minimum allot­ment clnu~e?-Yes. I also gave evidence on a previous occasion in l'egard to Lansdowne-place. A lot of Italians li'-e t.here, and since this Oommis­sion sat, many of the houses have been condemned, and there arc now only three houses left out of the lot.

l'760. B:IJ Mr. Cotte1'.-How many houses arc there in Lansdowne-street ?-There were twelve houses in Lansdowne-place on land !)3 x 73, but all these houscs have been condemned. On this land really good homes could be built.

176]. B1It the o,,'n01'S arc not allowed to build again ?-N o.

l'762. By the 1I on, J. Stemberg.-The Oity Oonncil are emphasizing nn evil?-Yes.

1763. By ][7'. Cotler.-I do not wonder that the property-owners object ?-I know that pInns and specifications of very nice cottages have been submitted to the authorities by owners of such land, but they have not been allowed to proceed with the erection of them.

1764. B:IJ Mr. Jfenzies.-Who objects?-The Mclbourne Oity Oouncil. They insist on a' depth of 100 feet. for dwelling houses, and a fI'ontage of 33 feet. A number of these houses are on right-of-ways, and a number on through streets, and so they have not the area required by the Oity Oouncil.

l'765. By jUr. Cotler.-What is the area of Lansdowne-place where these :lifteen houses are, or were situnted ?-The land is 142 feet x 73 feet, and there were fifteen houses upon it.

1766. By Mr. Men,zies.-Was there one owner ollly?-N o. There are a number of owners. In regard to the houses Nos. 5 and 7, which I mentioned just 110W, ill Oan,ada-Ial1e, they were in one yard, alld had only one closet, and were let for 5s. and 78. 6d. per week. As I have said, those two hOllses have now been made into one, and cleaned flud repaired, and the owner is getting 16s. a week.

1767. By the Cha1:rma11.-The owner is getting more from the one hOllse now than he got from the two before?-Yes, and lip-stairs in these houses thCl'e are no doors, nor is there any hand rail on the steps, and so they arc very dangerous. It seems absurd that these houses can be rebuilt in this waY,and yet nice modern cottages cannot be erected on the land, whilst small factories arc allowed.

1768. -By Mr. Menzies.-With dwellings at­tached ?-N o. The owners could erect thirteen factories upon that land now if they wished, but it would not pa.y them.

12

1769. Is any of the land used for that purpose ~ ..,-.One allotment in I.ittle Oardigan-street has a factory upon it,. but it is not occupied nor likely to be, as it is not a factory distr.ict. The owner of the land wanted to erect two nice cottages there, but was not allowed to do so. .

The witness tvilhdrew.

Bart910 Maffer'lOni, sworn and examine(i.

1770. By the Ghairman.-What is your full ~ame 1-Bartolo Mafferzoni. .

177J.. ~What are you 1-A plain-clothes con, stable, stationed at Fitzroy.

1772. Did not you give evidence before the :a:ousing COP1m.ittee some time a,g9 1-Yes, on 3rd pecember, 1913. . 1773. Will yo!.!. kindly put that evidence in I!0W, and let u~ know if you wish to make any alteratiops 1-Yes-[Gopy 0/ f}vi4i?nd.e prg(luced]. I merely W1!?~1 to refer t9 page &~, Q1f?st,ioJ) 14Q6. I said thp,t the re!?t of the h9Gf?e§l in that street, that is, Fteet-street,' were in fairly good 90ndi­tion; I have found out since that :No. 31 is in a very bad state.' It is a four-roomed house,and has a big yard. It has been occupied by China­men until last month, buT, it .is in a very bad state of. repair. The paper is all falling off the walls, and the plaster on the ceilings is cracked and tumbling down, ·an'd it is generally dilapi­d!J.ted. At the present time, a man and his wife and four children are occupying this house, but they live in Ql~e rOQm, sl?eping and eating in it. The other rooms are not fit to live in at alI. The door of the roo~ in which they are li~ing is badly twisted, and falling in, and above the door the bricks have fallen out. It must have been in a very bad ·state when the Chinamen left it, but they did so, and went across the street to a smaller house, for which they are payipg 228. a week. I understand three or- four . Chinamen are living together. .

1774. Is that the only ~lteration you wish to :make in yopr former evidence 1-Yes. Of CQ111'II6, there are other houses which I bad not seen before, as I have not much time to inquire int~ these matters.. I am on part night duty, and 1 only 'have about four hours in the daytime t9 make inquiries. Of course, we cannot' see these places in the dark, but I have ·done the best I could in the tiIl)e at my disposal ,Generally speaking, there are a lot of DId buildin,gs in Fitz­roy, but a number of them have been pulled dDwn, or are being pulled. down. ,

1775. Are there many hDUseS in Fitzroy wher~ the· tenants sub-let furnished or unfurnished rooms ~-Yes, a gr-eat ·number; in' fact, more, tlul.n in any Dther suburb of Melbourne.

·17.76. By Mr. Gotter.-MDre than in, Carlton ~ -Yes, a long. way mo:!;'e. .

1777.· By the Qhqirman.-What class of peopJe· take these furnished or unfurnished rooJIl~ ~­Some a,re respectable people, who c9me· from. the country, a,nd theY ma,y have theiX 9Q.i1dren with' thel)l. Others· are· prostitutes, thieves, ~nd the v~ry wqrst claSs of criminals in Australia. , 177~. Do they .. take furnished rooms 7-Yes.

Possibly they come over from Syqney and bring a prostitute with' the1n; and take a room. or course, .as IDng /!-s they behave themselves, We do not interfere with them. . ,

1779 .. P'y .Mr. Qotter..-po you know .the owners Df . these houses 1-The hDlLses are all ow~ed: by. differe~t . people, . but some Df the·m do not live· in' Fitzroy, an.d have never seen their: houses. '..

1780. By tl.1i Hon. J. Sternberg.'-I suppose you deal with some of these people occasionally 1 ~Yes.

i 781. By. the Ghairrnan.-Of course, as long as they behave themselves, you do not know that they are nDt respectable peDple 7-'fhatis so. , 1782. And some of them, no doubt, at:e re-

spectable people 1-Yes, s9me. . ·178~. Are there many of the a:rt1san class liv­

ing under these cDnditions ~-Th?re are a lo't Df workmen living in this way.r kt;low of families <;Qnsisting Df a father, p1Dther, and t:p.ree childe!! living ip. ope rODm, and they pay aIrpollt as mucll for it as they CDuld have got a house f<>.r a few yea"rs ·ago. I have seen very respt:ctable men and wome~ '~n ~hese places, and probaqly tile next. time lcalled I would find the 'same place occu­pied by a prDstitute. A ·cDuple of these pros­titutes take a rDom tDgether, and live, there dur­ip.g the daytime,. and visit the city at night.

1-784. What is the rent clJar,ged fQr thesG p'laces 1-From 16$. to' ,£2 a week is what the Driginal tenants would haVe to pay.

1785. An~ wh~t are the apartments sub-let for1 -Anything frDm 7s, 6d. to ~2s. or 14,s. a weel~ per room. , 1786. By Mr. Ilfenzies.-Have you allY idea of

the nU1l1oor of these rooms being let at these rates1-No. ' , 1787.' Have you anything in writing to suppDrt YDur statel):).~nts 1-Yes; .

17(3(3. YDU are IQaking general statements, and we woul\i like something to SuppDrt them 1-1 could show the Commission what I have been spe~king about, . ,

1789. By the Ghairmal~.-And you say the tenants only pay about 16s. a we-ek for these hOllses 1-Tha't is the pilOTeI' class, but for the better type of hDuse they would pay more.

1790. And fDr furnished ·or unfurnished apart­inents, the rents range from 5s. to· 16s. a week 1 ~Yes. .

1791. Does that include the use of the kitchen 1 -Yes; S01):).6 of the people. have the use of the kitchel)., ;but .others do no'l;. ' .;

1792, By the Hon. J. Sternoe1·fJ.-I!?uppos6 . thDse who do not WDuld' use primus. stQves.1-Yes,

1793. By the .Ghai1'1fwn.-Why should peDple take these furnishe.d apartments at such pricesf-;-" They will not gO. to the trouble of buying fprni­ture, as they may only:be stopping a little while. I should say that about 8s. Dr 9s. wDuld represent the.av.erage amount paid, but fDr some front rDDms it would be more. .

·1794. By _~fr. Gotte,r.-And I suppose there is Qnly Dne G1Dset .fqr these. p'lace<! 10;-In tre majo~ity of case~, yes,.. .,' ..

1795. B1f the Ghairman.-And only one bath 1 -Yes, . it 'is very uncQill'mop. ·iP' see ·t'VQ hlJ!ths' in a hQ\lse, ;Prjncelif-street and'~egent-stroot c9nSist !postly of lodging houses. .' :'

1796. By lIfr.(Jatter.-Is this !pode of living increasing generally in'Melbourp.e, or in youi' dil:1~ t.rict 1-.lt. is just al:!out the ~:neas i't has ah"~Ys. been. . . .. . . 1797. Have. n9t you nDticed ar<Y 'differ.ellc? ?-it

has always been tlle·same in my'time" and 'almost every l;lOuse in the district lets rDOmS. ..... ' . 1798, 'l'J:.en tlie, congestio~" is not ,greater than lt., was som~ years ago 1-1 .canJ?ot ~ay ~hat. There is one lQdging house in Gertrude-street, ~o:' 219, which is a delicensed hDteL I 'tlifnk there 'are sixteen rooms:. i~ . jt,·· and they. are . ~il kt·· t9 marriec;l QDupl~s .. 1'he tenant pays £7 a week fDr the house, and lets the rOD~S. fDr from 58. to. 9s. 6d. a week. . .", ...

is i 799. By (he dhairma1~.-Evidently he is mak­

ing a very handso¥le profit 7-Yes, and the people living there are a bad· class, and we have had to make one or two arrests there.

1800. You had to interfere ~-W e have made several arrests in that house lately. Of course, the owner says that he must take the tenants as they come, and cannot be responsib~e for their char­acter. He contends that he lets the rooms in good faith, and, I suppose, these people must live some-where.· .

1801. By the Ohairman.-How do these people do in regard to drying their clothes 1-Some dry . them in the yard, and SOme in their rooms.

1802. I suppose some of them make use of the Chinese laundries?...,-Yes, some go to the China­men, but, of course,. there are many people in :Fitzroy who do not do· very much washing. These conditions, of course, do not apply to the whole of Fitzroy, but chiefly to the part near the city. Near the bottom . end of Smith-street some very nice houses have been built lately, and the people living there are very respectable.

1803. In this particular house that you have mentioned, are there many women living there?­Yes, they come and go. They may be there a week or so, and then, perhaps, the police are called in over something, and they are moved on.

1804. Are there any children there?-I have seen very few children there, but there have been l'espectablll women with children the;re, who, as soon as they found out what kind 9f pla~e it was, moved elsewhere. These people come and go fre­quently.

1805. By 11fr. Ootte1·.-Are many of these people old-age pensioners?-There are a lot. of old-age pensioners living in roomsin:Fitzroy.

1806. By lrir. lIienzies.-Does your district em­brace a very large area ~-I thi:p.k in Fitzroy and North Fitzroy we have 923 acres.

1807. During the last five years, has there been a large number of buildings erected within that area?-Yes.

1808. Have they mostly consisted of small dwel­liugs ?~N 0, they are u'p-to-date bujldings ..

1809~ Are there ;many being . erected now 1-There are a good few at the further eI;ld.

1810. Can you give us some idea as to the }lum­ber?-During the last five .or seven years, I sup-pose about 7 acres have beeI;l built UpPI;l. .

1811. noes that apply .to .other parts, irrespec­tive of the district that you h.lj,ve refer.l'l)q to ~,,-'J'his is the bottom end of Smit4-street, b~twel)n that and Brunswick~street. . 1812. Are these buildings wooden or brick?­]\fostly h.rick, but there have be()n .a few wooden places erl)ctcd,. altholilgh not many. They ,are gene­rally brick and wen-built.

181.3. Are there as ;many being erl'lcted as are being PllUed dowp?-'J'here are more at .that par-ticuJaJ' ;par,t. .-

ISH. But ta\ing the whole dist.rict that you have J:eiJ}rred to J!.j3 .containing dilapidateq. hou~es, I take it that ;they are being 1'I:lpiaced by these JIO]lSeS t.hat Y9U navl) jqst referred to ?~I do not follow you. . - _

1815. Are there as 1lla.ny n!'?w houses being erect().d .as·the1'e are .old houses beil1g eonde:u;med or p,ulleQ. down?-'1'.he.1'e have b~Wl }IlWe buiJt.

1816. By Jlp.ePon.J. $t,?r~~berg.~JJa:ve the.re h~nPl,tl!lly :ho~scs pWled.d9Wl). i)+ Fit:r;r.oy?~ N .0, :they \concll:lmn the. houses, but they.do n.ot pull them doW;rt. . . .

'18;l7. The placf3s that you haye reie!l'redto as new places al'e erected by people suchllS COl1trac­t0r.sa:ua l>uUd~lI'jl, v,Jad tjxeY:W:9ulq illl;l,t W let to ,the

class of people ;,vho live in the residences you have described ~-N o. Near MacRobertson's factory there have been a lot of improvements.

1818. By lri r. '111 enzies.-But these h.ouses are not for working men?-Yes.

1819. By 1I1r. Ootte1·.-What are they let fod­Different prices.

1820. What is the land worth 1-It would be worth £3 to £5 a foot.

1821. By the Ohairman.-Is that an increase of recent years 1-Y es; land in North Fitzroy, .which was only worth 30s. a foot eight years ago, IS now worth £7.

1822. By lIfr. 11Ienz'ies.-What conclusion have vou arrived at as to the cause of the, overcrowding in your particular suburb?-The overcrowding is chiefly neal' the city, and the' reason is that these people must be convenient to the city.

1823. By ~~lr. Ootter.-You mean adjacent to their work ¥-Yes, and Fitzroy is very handy t.o the city.

1824. By 11L1'. Stembe1'g.-Is it not a great place for factories and workshops?-Yes, and Fitzroy is rather a cheap place in which to live.

1825. By lri r. Ootter.-You heard Constable Sharpe's evidence in regard to the prpstitution question. What is your opinion about that 1-1 agree that they should be kept in one centre, and licQnsed, and under close supervision. Of course, it will be a very difficult matter to say who are prostitutes, as there are a lot of girls or women who are not ,known to be so, although they really are. They may not have been convicted.

1826. It would not take the police long to pick them out ?-It would be Tery easy, and there are hundreds in Fitzroy.

1827. And they are scattered about now, and living among decent, respectable people 1-Yes, they Ij.re scattered allover the district, and they get into decent houses at times.

1828, ThelJ., in the interests of .public morality, it would be better. if they were confined to one area?-Yes.

o

The witness withdrew.

RCl.derick Kenneth McDonald, sworn and examined.

1829. By the ·Ghai1·man.-What are you 1-A plain-clothes constable, stationed at C.ollingwood.

1830. Have you c.ollected any inf.ormation in ·regard to the h.ousing problem in Collingwood for this Commission1-1 have made some in­quiries, and I have the f.oll.owing facts to place .before the Commission. Collingwood has an area of 1,139 acres, and a population of 36,240. The

. gain f.or the year 1913 was 742. The average .number of people residing in each house is four allda half. The rents range according to situa­tion and size of r.ooms. 1<01' tliree rooms and ,under 5s. 1/:-0 lOs. is charged, accordin"g te situa­tion; for iQur :l'ooms, 11s. to 12s. a week is charged; an4for five- r.ooms and over, 13s: to 16s. 6d. :rhe i!}crea;.;e in rents for -t'ho past three yeilfsl,!u;;l,1eel1 from 20 per ep.ut. to 25. per ,cent., h:\!.t jJ;l sO:t;l1e insta;ncgs 1110re: In Gipps­street, there is a brick dwel1.ing, Nos. 52 to. 66, w~j;l1. a l:l1~PliJ. ltlld 9Ppper in tIl.} yard. There is 110 :El:p.!)g,:w~§h,hovs.e, .0.r.tI:(;mgQ, (tnd v:ery ljttle p~p.Gir§. .baye b~en done witllil) recent ·year~; ~.lld tb,er.enj:;s h?-v,e gone 1:lp from;} Us. to 16", 6d. i}l thre.e y;eurs. The nnmber of dwellings containing ,l14ree r .o9.D1S a'lld lJ'llder is about 2,027; those con­tainjng f.our rooms number 3,000; iiv.e rooms and ·\Wc\l,\' .Q#;m,P9J 2/10,0. IiI .r~gi'l:+Q. to IJ!'-rks W~

. gardens, in Collingwood, there is. Gahan's Be­"erve, of about 3 a.cres, all laid out with shrubs and flowers; also' Cornfoot, Alexander, and Vic­toria parades; and 'Vilkins, Beazley, and AllUlont reserves. The Collingwood public baths cost £1,600, and have a capacity of 456,000 g:ll­Ions. The admission 1'01' adults is 3d.,' and for children 1d. There is practically no overcrowd­ing in Collingwood, and there arc no Hindoos or Indians resident ill Collingwood.

1831. By the Chairlllun.-'Vho uses the re­serves 1-'1'hey are used by children and people passing backwards and forwards.

1832. Is Gahan's Reserve part of the bowling­green ~-No; .the bowling-greeu' is a separate place altogether.

1833. Arc these reserves accessible to the pub­lic at any time ?-Yes, a:b any time, afternoon ·01' uight. Most of these reserves are small,and scattered about in different parts of the city.

1834. Do most of the, people in Collingwood live in their own dwellings?-Yes.

1835. By the Hon . .T. Stt1'nbery.-You mean that they do not live in rooIllS, but that each family, has its own house?-Yes.

1836. By the Chail'man..-But they are not their own landlords ?-N o.

1837. By tJve ,Han. J. Stw·nbcl'{j.-I suppose a great many live in single tenements ~-Yes. h SOUle cases two families live .in the same dweDin,g, but there are a number of rooms in them.

1838. Then there is 110 overcrowding, even in those places 1-In olle vlace, in particular, there are thirteen people ill thirteen rooms. Thatwas so when I visited them, but, of. course, there may be more a t times.

1839. By 311', Cot!,,/'.-Are tIley single people ~ -'rhere are thil'beeu people in that house, includ­ing adults and children.

1840. Have you allY, Chinese in Collingwood ?­There are three Chi.nese laundries, two Chinese gardens, amI foul' Chinamen in a place in 'Vel­lingtoll-street.

1841. Bll the 'i11.J'Jb • .7. Stdnue1·f!.-But ;,~hey are not living iu slums or under slum conditio~~'l3 -No. I may say 'that a Humber of houses have been condemned ill Collingwood of law years, and .that a· record has been kept of theses!uce 1884. On the 3rd April, 1911, the Council pni'­chased No. 23 Raphflel-street, aud destroyed the house by fire, 011 account of several cases, of COIl­

sumption having occurred there. From 1900 to 1912 372 houses were eondellllled, and these have mostly beel} pulled down and re-built. I have a list of these premises here. [List of condemned houses handed in.] From 5th January, 1911, to 27th November last 314 buildings have been

,ereet.ed,consisting of dwellings, factories,and shops, at a total cost of £1'16,366. There have. been erected this yem;, orltre ill course of erection, 125 buildings, of which I have a list. [List of buildings being erel.;ted hwnded in.] , 1842. Were, all the condemned houses pulled down ?-I "have a record here provided- by the Council, showing which were pulled down.­[Statementhamded to the Oommi.ss'ion.]

1843. Does your statement show the per(:clltage of these houses which we I'e really destroyed ?:-I have not that information. .

1844; In regard to the lie\\, buildings being erected, arc these being erecteqby private enter­prise ~-Yes. I l.11ay say that 'all the streets in Collingwood are well laid out, made, and drained. There nre onlv two blind streets, and we huyc no allcY;\'ays Or c1-05s lunes. The health of the people is goo"d. Of course, there tlrc a number Of small houses in Collingwood, and among them nre some

houses that shou1d he coliAemned. There Me hv~ . w~odCli houo;c8, N 00;. 2(;-27 l{obert-;;tl'eet, on land 24 by 23 feet. These places are let nt 4s. 6d. each, ]}I',t they are in had l·upnil'. No. 18 Glasshouse­street is a slllull th1'ee-roo111o<1' place, but 'with a big piece of laJl(l attached to it. The OWUOl' hns lii'ed in it for tllC past sixt,r~two veal's. It is more or le~s dilapidated, and it wo~ld be condemned, ex­cept tliat the occupant is an old-age pellSionei:, and we do IlO't like to turn her out: Hoddle-place con­tains' two part brick und weatherboard houses of tliree or foUl' rooms, which are lot for 8s. 6d.' tine! 118. a week. Thev Hre in n Y01'V bad state of re­pair, and should b~ pullc(l (lo'wn~ 'fhere are also :fiye houses, 64 to 72 Oambridge-street, of two or three rooms, on land 75 by 36 feet. 1'he8e are in a )'e1'Y bnd conditioll) sUld they are very old. Theu, in t,he back yard, there is another two-roomed place, let for 3s. 6d. 11 week to an old lll~in, but. it is 'in a very bad state. At 16 Forrest-street there is 'a house with two rooms, on land 21 by 40 feet, uud let fOl' 48. 6d. a week. There are two old-age pensioners liying in the house, which hus been· built upwards of thirty odd years 01' more.

1845. Bv M,I'. OoUel·.-What do most of these people do ~-Ma.l1Y of them nre old-age pen­sioners, and in this last plnce' I lun'e referred to they are two old ladies. ,

1846. I suppose they 'nre POOl', but respectable? -Yes. Also, at 5 I31'Owu-stl'eet, there is a little cotta!,>'(3 of three rooms, on land 30 by 60 feet, let for 7s. a week. There are foul' adults und :fivc

'ell ildrcn in one family living ill it., ' 1847. By Han . .f. Sternbe1'fl,-Al'e there many

slmilur places?-Tltere are a good m~lJy. Browu­sti'eet lias It dead cud," hu t thore arc only three st~'eets iIi, Collingwood sil;( ilur. 'Byron-street ha"s a dead eud, and there al'e two houses in that street eoilt.aining three ]·OOHIS. The.r lulYC a yard 18 by 12. fect, and are let for 6s. a weok for ,t:\'O adults. These houses are vcry unhealthy, us they are nghillsj; the brewery wull, which is 30 feet high, lind, themfore, they get no afternoon sun. Also No. ;I, in the smne stJ'ect, is tl house in the same condition. . I~' 8011tail~s two rool~ls; is eud on to the street; It ls,occupwd by two 'PCL'SOllS, and the reilt is 58. 6d. a 'week. 'J'his place is very old, and the walls are \'ery low. Thcll WI? hll\'e a number of :gollgested places, where'there arc d weIlings witll

'\'e~'Y:; little land. 'J:lLCre 15 one 1)1aco ,in Easc,Y­street, wh,ere ·the houses am very bad, ,and also Nos, 15 t}(17 lIothitllJ-5tl'oot ~lre small. but not in bad condItion. Then theri.~ is H plaoo in Victo,ria­street, containing four rooIus, and occupied by two adults and six children. There is no bath or copper, and the front room is 12 by 12 feet.' The paper on the walls is yery bad, as them are s~veral layers of paper one on top of the other. The back rooms consist of a lean-to about 6 ft. 3 in. high at the lowest point. The 'ceilings are black ',,,,ith :llidirt, and there is abo a mannre pit all broken to : pieces. Thore is no door on the closet, and there is an irou roof over palings. There is a frontage of 21 feet. The yard is not made, and the, fences are fallillg to pieces through neglect alld old-age. The kitehen i8 about!) by !) feet, und the rent of this place is 98. a week. .

184~. By the lion. J. Steil~be1'!l.-Who lives ill I,his place ?-A labouring lllaD who works at the brewel'Y, but I do not ~ow his name.

18'±9.Has he a wife and f!lli.tilY~7.yes,and they Ilre very respectable people. Then at 118 Langridge-street thero is a four-roomed brick house" oceupied by a widow with. five children,' the eldest of 'whom 'is fourteen years, and the youngest two years. There are also fmil' boarders--two girls,

one sixteen amI. olie n~-!leteell years of age, and two youths, seventeen and t,,'enty-two years of age. .Also at 58,\ ill thc sallie street there is a ten-roomed house utprescnt occupied by t,we1ve persons, in­chldiug two children. At 252 Wel1illgtoll-strcet t.l10re is a house of fourteen rooms occupied by eleven persons and two childrcn. In William-street there are five brick two-storey four-roomed houses, each,oll land 15 by 51 feet, aud let at a ront.aI of 15s. and lis. rcspectively, ocel1pied by fOHl' adults lIIHl one child. These places m'u in Ycry good or(~er.

18:')0 ... .:\rc they let to respcctHbJe people~-Yes. A],;o in Nicholson-street', there arc five two-storey housl;s on one block of land let at 12s, a week. and occupied by four pet'SOIlS, but in good order. These h01l8CS each have n bat.h. Then there arc two hOllses in Lallgridgc-stl'cet, Nos. 198 and 204. These houses contain four rOOms and a bath, and are let for 128. a week. They are 011 II block of land '78 by 102 feet.

is

:I 851. B:1j llTr. C.oltei·.~-Is that lIear I,he DClll;oll Hat :Mills ?-':'Higltt opposite, Then at Nos. ::17 to 45 Langridge-street there ure sevell two­storey honses containing fOUl' rooms ench, with a hath but 110 cop pel', and on land 63 by 87 feet. The rent is 9s. u week, ami. they ure occupied by two adults and three children, and are not in very "good repair. TllCl'e are u number of other places like that. Nos. 60 to 62 Cambridge-street consists of houses of the sume kind. There are seven two­storey brick houscs, each with foul' rooms, lIO bath, the lalld is 96 by 64 feet, and the rents range from lOs. t,o 12s, a week. These places are not in very good order. ' I may say that before I attended this' Commission previously, I yisited a number of 1hese nouses, but that since, on visiting them, I fuul that, ill many instances, they have been put into good order. .

1852. By the lIon. J. Sterr.b£wg.-That is since you gave eyidencc here?-Y cs. There are :l n'um­her of places in Rokeby-streot which wero in very hlld order, Lut thoy htwe now been dOllcup and painted inside and out, and put into good order gellerally. There is another lot in Keele-street which haye been liut into very farr repair .. '

1853. ,A.ud you say there arc really 110 slum areas in Oollingwood ?-There are ,POOl' properties, but .I klJOW of no slums. There are' a number of pOOl' properties in Hobort-street, N orthuUlberlal1d-st~,et, Waterloo-road, Glasshouse-street, and Rupel't­street. ]}>Iost of t})esc contain" about t41'ee 01' foUl' 1'OOI1lS, and SOUle from fifty to sixty years" old:

18M. AJ'e they tenanted b,Y single falnilies?­Yes, with rare exceptions. I IUIye not found more than <;Ille family ill any of them. Of coursc, the council has been consistently condemning such houses.

1855. You sa.r tllO.)' hll\'e condemned 39'7 h011ses since 1900?-Y cs. Collingwood, of course, is' a great place for faetoric15, and I suppOSC Foy and Gihson's shops aIJ(l factories havctakcn the place of oycr 200 small houses. Then therc is Whybl'oWS and ot.hor large factories.

185(i. B:1j llfr. Cotlc1,,-Of course, the rail­way line did away with a great liany of these ,;luaU houses?-Yes. I may say that we have 239 plaC1Jfl regi.stered as factories, in Coll~n~wood, a:t;td I have a hst. of t,hel'll for t.he ComnllsslOn. rList of facto'J'ies handed to the COIi~m:is8i01~.J· I have also a copy of our Building Act for the infol+ua­tiou of theCommissioll. r Cop'!.! of Bnilding Act 7t lI.lUled to the Co tn'miss ion. J

.185"7. By'the Chai'I"inan.~I suppose you have a r,horough knowledge of the whole of the Colling­wood district~7I thiuk 'I have, as I ho",e been there fo1' over twenty-seven years.

1858. ltave you been on duty all that time in that distriet?-I have.

:IS;,)!). Do yon fitly that a good type of working man's home is to be fotmd ill Collingwood?-Yes. The hOllses thut have beon lmilt there duriug the last tOil yem's or so Hl'O ull lip to date, and contaiu five or six rooms.

1860. What sir.e are thc l:OOll1S, gBnel'ally speak­ing ?-Of coursc, they vary according to the si7.e of the honse. I should say they mn from 10 by 12 or 11 hy 12 t.o, ill SOHle cases, much larger 'rooms. I kllO'\v that it great Ulany of the houses have 1'61'Y

hi/!' rooms. 'j S6l. So V011 consider that the houses being

built in Coliille,l"wood at the pt'eBent time are of a good type 1-Yes, for the class of people.

]862. Are they satisfactory as regards ventila­tion, lig:hting, nlld general c01lYeniences, such as are required by the up-to-date housewife ?-In those ltOW buildings, ycs.

1863. Thnt is to say, they have a copper and a bath, und everything which is supposed to be in­cluded ill un up-to-date house ?-Yes, there is a bath and conveniences in everyone of them.

1864. Taking the Inajority of houses being built in Colling'wood to-duy, do yon say that due regard is being paid to the propel' construction of these houses?-Yes, they are much better than those built in the past,

1865. Of course, a very large proportion of the houses which hare beon erected for any length of tiine would 110t possess it bath 01' a coppel' 01' the cOllveniences which the up-to-date housewife con­siders necessary?-I went t.hrough one or two streets, such as Robert-street, and in that street, out of twenty houses, only three 11ad baths, and about the samc number had coppers~ ,

1866. I suppose the kerosene tin has to do duty in that cOllllexion with the houscwives in Colling­wood?-No, I do ~lOt think so, I think most of the people have portalJle coppers. I saw a great Hl/Illy <;>f those whell Twas going round.

1867.;'Have thcy thc neccssary appliances for rinsing clothes uud drying them ?-N one of the oldor placcs hayo wnsh t,ronghs or coppers or Hlly­thillg like that.

:t 868. Therefore, only a vel'Y small proportion of the lJOuses at pL'cscnt existing in Collingwood would haye t.hc llecessury cOllYeniences for the housewi yes to do their work properly ~-Yes. I suppose about half the houses would have the In test appliances.

1869. At least hal£?-Yes, I should say so. :1870. Theu 50 pel' cent,. of the people have not

the essential convenieuces ?-Thel'e might be more, bUI; I could 110t be certain. I kIlOW that. all the new places have these conveniences, whereas lumBy any of the old places .lJave them.

1871. Did ;YOIl go into the interior of these houses that you have been speaking about?-I went t.hrough some of them.

1872. Whitt: waR your general impression~­That t.hey ,,'ere built vcry low, and were in a bad state of repair, and that there was no ventilation.

18'73, Take, ~l; instance, the bedroolUs in par­t,icular. The bedroom is the place where the ordi­nary individual spends at least seven 01' eight hours ont of the twenty-four. What was your general illlpJ1jssion as to the bedroom accolUmoda­tion iu OollingWood?:-I think that, generally speaking, j:he bedroom was the smalles,t room· in the house, and the worst yel1tilated. .

18'74. And very badl:y lighted, as a rule ?-Yes. In the Qld: three and four 1'oomed houses usually you enter' straight into the front room, which would be1 pel'haps, 10 by 12 feet. Then you go

:H.oderlcklKenneth McDonalii, 19th May, 1~14 •.

into the. ilext room, and there ~s a passage of a~out 2 ft. 9 In. off that, and that space is taken off the bedroom. The passage runs to the kitchen, and takes that much space off the adjoining rooms.

16

1875. By Hon. J .. Sternberg.-Would that apply to the streets that you have specified in your evidence 1-Yes, to a very large proportion of the old properties in the eight or ten streets that I have mentioned.

1876. By tk~ Ohai1'man.-c-In regard to the bed­rooms, did you find instances where the husband and :wife and one or two children occupied the same bedroom?-No,I cannot say that I did. I (hi~ I only saw about three places where there were children occupyiI).g a bedroom with adults, but they were young children, and slept in the same bed. At a place I visited yesterday-a four­roomed house occupied by five adults .and two children-they were sleeping outside.

1877. Do they sleep out winter and summer1-They told me that they did.

1878. Was there any evidence of it?-~hey had a shed fixed up. I may say that sleeping out seems to be popular in· Oollingwood, and a lot of tents have been . fixed up for tbe purpose. .. 1879. But would not thetenJ;s take up the space In'the yards 1-Yes. .

1880: And, therefore, the smali play-grounds of the children would be still further curtailed, and children of three or five years cannot go away to the public reserves to play?-:-That is so.

1881. Therefore, they can only play in the small yards or in the' streets 1-There are many small yards in Oollin~vood. .

1882. And you . admit that the tents must take up a good portion of tIle accommodation .that should .be devoted to the children's requirements? -Yes. Of course, there are some big yards in the district, and the place I visi~d yesterday had a very big yard.

1883. Did you make a point of inquiring from the housewives you visit()d as to how many people were sleeping in the bedrooms ?-I did not make particular inquiries into that. . 1884. Do you think that it must be injurious to the health of the children if they have to sleep in the same room as adults, seeing that the adults, being the stronger, must deprive the children of tl;ieir' proper share of fresh air ?-I tlI~I).k that in Oollingwood, as in every other place, ,the infants sleep with their parents. .

1885. Do yon think it would be a wise thing, and co~duciye to tbe wellbeing of the district, if the council were to institute a series of lectures for the purpose of instructing the mothers or parents of the children in' the p:t;in~iples of hygiem,?-T4ere cal,l,'be 110 do~bt that it would be ,an advantage, but, still, I do not think much notice would be taken of it.

1886. Of course, it is the old saying, "If you don't succeed,' try, try again." This is a vital' question in the up~building of the strong Austra­lian race which we are aU looking fOJ;. Is it not absolutely e~sential for t4e P1'Op~l," development of t4is country-that its c4ildrep E\houlq ~aye the ad­vantages of healthy and sanitary sur.rounqiIlgll?-Certainly. . . 1887. Alld is not proper. velltill\.twl;!, Olle 'of the

first principles for the proper deve~op:m,ent 'o£the child ?-There is no doul)t about it. However, there are difficulties. in the' way.' No' doubt, by

'legislation you may provide that. only Ii certain c1as~ of house sllaH be erected. For instul.l<?o; so

many feet for a single-fronted hou~e, and so many feet for a double-fronted house, but you must legiS­late for the future; the trouble is what has booll done in the past.

1888. Is not that a matter for the City Oouncil to look ,afterY-I tliink so.

1889. Is it not 'for them to take the. necessary steps ?-Yes. . 1890. Now, I understand you have a number of semi-detached tenements in OolliI).gwood 1-¥ es, lots of them.

1891, Of course, there would be no ventilation between those houses?-No.

1892. And the people carrying on their private household duties, or conversing in one house, could be heard by the occupants of the adjoining house? -T-There is no doubt of that.

i, 1893. Do you consider that a desirable thing?­It is not. . 1894. Therefore, there is room for improve­

lllcnt so far as Oollin/Slvood is concerned ?-Of course thero is. , 1895 . .Although you say'You have no slu~ areas

in Oollingwood, still improvements could be made ill regard to building regulations ?-There is no doubt about that.

1896. Would it not be an improvement if, i'n! stead of these houses being all clustered togeth(;lr, they were detached, and had a garden in front and at the side, as they have in Adelaide and other towns in South Australia ?-Yes, there is no doubt it would be better for the health of the residents. . 1897 . .And you say there 'arc a large number of

streets built as semi-detaehed cottages from one end of the street to tbe other?-N ot the whole street. According to our . building regulations, where wooden houses are bmlt they must be 4 feet from the b01mdary or dividing line.

. 1898. By },!fr. OoUer.-But you have a lot of these semi-detached plaees in Collingwood 1-Yes, that is so, and in parts there may be two o~ three, oi', pe:t:haps, foul' together. There' are a good many built in this way in some of the streets"but. not whole streets.

;1899. By the Oha·irman.-Would you fiD,d four or five houses in a line in, one street in Oolling­wood built i~ that way?-You might find one. or t\vo terraces iu different streets, with four or five h01\ses builtin that way, but that would be in the slualler streets, and you would not find many.

J DOO. In places whore the tcnants have room to JI,w.ke a garden, do you find that" as a rule, they avail thems~lves of the opportunity~-In some cases they do, bht llOt i~ many. .

. IDOl. Do you not think that this is a hobby which should be cultivated, in order to improve I:he' go;mcrat appearance of the sUl:roundings in your . locality, or any locality '!-~ Yes, there is nO doubt about that, a~ld that it would be all, advan­tage ~o tlIe lIealth of the people;

1902. By 11fr. Cottel".-Isnot; lhe trouble that n'to;;;t of the~e people have to leave for work very early, and tlwn do l!ot get home u,p.til abou.t dark, and the.p. they,feel too tired for gardelli:ng?~I do 110t k,I1QW the cause of it; bu.t, of cOlll"l;le, m(:tny }},eople do l\ot like g~rde:pi~g, while others do. ThE;ire are ~Ol~El very ilice gardens in OoUil1&'Woo.cl.

1903.- By the: Oltairm(w .. -Is. it not a matter of cultivatiti,g'lim opinion upon this qUElstion? Any one who has been to Adelaide, and !;leen the newel' 8ublJ,rbs, sMcl;tas Unley, NorwoQd, or North Ade­laide, must have been struc~ by the beauti.fuJ gar­dens surrounding the houses, ulld the, generl1.1

•

'effec\;?::..!.No ti"oubt thlit is as it ~ii6ti1a lie, bUt ih Collingwo'o'd there is the aifficlilty that there are so many small owners.

1904. We Will endeavour to' have &omething don'e in this 'direCtion fot the future ?~If you can surmount the difficulty; it will "Be a great ad­vantage.

1905~ You think it would be it vast in:\.prove­ment upon the present system ?....:.TRere is no queS­tion about it.

i906. Do you favour brick bUildings as against wobdeii ·oh'es~..:..:.:..I tlo, speaking personally. I thillk you can build as gpC!d ~ brick hQuse as yOl!; ~ah a wooden one, aha it takes much less t6 .keep them in repair, whilst the insurance is biuch less. Also, the fact that re-painting has not to be dOne every few years is a big item ih favour of brick dwellings, . 1907. How did you. find the sanitation of the houses that ybu visited, generally speaking?-I <lid not see any fatilt with the sanitation; as die arains appeared to be good.

19U8. Had you any, fault to fiii<l With t~e streets ?-The width of the streets range nom 33 feet to 66 feet, ana the lanes from 10 to 20 feei; and ma<le. , 1909. Did YQu £ina ilie cBiia,~n .itlaYirig about

the streets 'much in Qdll,iIigwood ~-Yes, t1iere are always any amount 01 chilaren abOut the streets.

19iQ: Are j not two or thr~Sl .. children'~ play­grounds, at least, wanted in Colli;ngwood?-Yes, they would be a great improvement:

,1911:, qf cQurSf;l, they should be near the ceritres of populaiioIl 7-'-Yes. , .

1912. By J.il'l'. C!ott8'1'.-Has it ,not beeIl.ir0Ur e~­periehCe that the mothers do nQt like to allow tl1eir children to go very far away from home to play ~ -Yes. , , . , ' ,

1913. Therefore, the playgrou,~d~", must be Ilumerous an~ ih central positions?-There is no doubt about that~. , ", ! '

1914., By th8 Ohai'l'ma~.-Will not t11ese diffi­culties be overcQme if tlie :pl~y-gio~nds ~are .in charge of ,a"municipa,l officer, who lOOKS alter the grounds while th9 cpndren are thel:e, aM sees tli~t they are lfot molested in tiny way?-That would get over tlie trouble. 191~.The ,pJay-grounqs in 0~riton are iqoked

after by the City.09uncil, and there,is a}f ,Q:(ficial in charge to see thltt uo one m.olests the child,ren? -;:-Weare now trying to provide, play-grounds in CollingWoo,d:, where the qld municipf!.l yards used to be. Half of the area is to lie used for the new ~t~te ~C(hi:iol, ,at a <tost Of £7,699~ .an4 the other 11aff ",ill be devoted to,.d, cliildren's play~i#'(hind, but, of course, all these things cost ::i lot 6£ money.

1916. The upkeep of the pi~y~gr6und should:, be v,ery ~mall. Proper supervision by it caretaker should not amou:q.t to mOl;e than one farthing per ratep,ayer, even if ,YO).! had thiee play-grounds. It is oIlly a mafter,MJlie c~uncil taking the thing in hand enthusiasHcall~~..::...Tliat is so.

1917. Have irod an~ other evidenoo that you wish to place before us ?-N o .. 1liand in: a list of the poorest class of houses in E1ollingwood.

1918 .. You have given us a,.great uea} of. valu~ able iI;l£6tmation; 'iVhich· we will look· thr.ough;, and thcP; if r{ecessarj, aijk .yeu tit attend: again..H so, will you be prepared to come here again ?:-Yes.;:,

The wit1~e88 withllrew; TlLe Oommissiihi ttdjourneu 1intil- Tuestlo4;

. 26t1l: lvlu/!}J ~9j:4!., 6724.

, !

r~~Jit.~!: TUESDAY; 2'6TH MAY, 1!H4.

Pre~ent:

R. H. SOLLY, Esq., M.t.A., in the Chair; The lf6n. J. G. Aiknian, The Hon. H. F. Richardson; M.r. Baird, ;Mr. Qotter, Mr. Menzies.

J ok Loorham, sworn and e.'(amined.

1919. "Qy the Vkai'l'1han:-Wllat are you i-A ,plain-clothes constable statIOned at N6rth lIel­boUrne.

1920. Hilve you prepared any statement as to th'o condition the p~ople are living in. there~­Yes; in Trafalgar':place, off Levison-street, there are eight smaI). houses; they are all closed ih by two-storied bUildillgs and are in baei repair; small yards; no baths or coppers, nB wasI:iing troughs, and a number of cnildren living there; they have very low ceilings, and, ih my opinion, they are very unhealth~ places for people to re­side in:

1921. Are they single-fronted 'places 1-Yes. One is a corrugated-iron terrace, ver::! lOw roofs and ceilings; they are all joined together. There are five buildings in the terrace, and about, 90 feet frontage and. 40 feet depth. They are all ,joined together, and when you open the door you are in the front room.

1922. What is ihe renH-From 5s. M. to 68. 6d. 1923. What is the height of t:p.e rooms ~-About

7 feet; I. can touch them easily liy putting my hand over my head. . 1924. Is the ventilation good ?-N 0 j very bad. They are V):lry old places, built in the olden ~i.riles, when. ventilation was. not. thought of. There have been no repairs done for years.

a

1925. How manychUdren are there~-At least ten or fifteen young cl1ildren.

1926. Is it a narrow str~et?-Very narrow; all hoUsed in by two-story buildings.

i927. Is there 'ahy playgroun,d or place of re­creation i-~ ot near thete; if they want to play, they liave to go into the right-of-way, or into th~, big street. . .

1928'. Do the women corrip'lain about the bad accoiiriiiouation~!.:...Yes. In a great number 01 places; they say if tliey ask for any repairs tHey are afraid of t~e rent blHng raised. My expel:i­ence of N di'th Melbourne is that there are more young children iii. these Small places in compari­son ~han in the big streets. The most of the people in those smil:ll houses are men not able to do hard worK; tJiey ate marine collectors and haw:!i:ers, and they Mve young cliildien; and they reside iii those plilces until some of tfie childien grow iip; and are ii:BIe to earn for themselves, and the'n they come 'out iiito the big streets, and Have Better Muses; . . 1929. By Mr. Baird.-How far is the nearest

playground ?-Fully ii qrial'ter~of-a~mile. The llojal ParlE is tIie' neatest playground, and the Flagstaff Gai'dens would be about the same dis-ta:b.ile: .

1930. By the Hon. J. G; Aikmaii.-Tliose houses are oCi:l'tipied because they cannot affoi'd to get heUer houses~"::"" Yes,. ,mostly; they are people ,ivho do not eUI;n much mOliey, and they have' it youngramily,to keep:

1931. It is almost necessary to provide houses at about that rate i-Yes; but there could be a lot more conveniences for' the women in those places, such as baths and coppers. There is one house in Smith's-court, off Errol-street, tery low roof, very old building, no bath, no copper, nO washing troughs.

1932. By the Ohairman.-What 'is the frontage of that place ?-It is in a place by itself. It is a little right-of-way running off a street; then there is a vacant piece of ground, and this is built at the back of the other buildings. There is no back entrance to the house; there are no back doors to the house, alld the vacant ground in fro'nt they use for a yard. There are no children in that place. ,

1933. How many adults are there ~-One woman and her daughter; there are four rooms in it.

1934. What is the rent ?-"-:Six shillings and six­pence a week. Those people have been living in that house for 22 years.

1935. By the Hon. J.G. Ailcman.-1s it their own ~-No. In Wylie-lane, off Arden-street, there are three houses, Nos. 3, 4, and 5, with no .back doors or back entrances. The yards are about 6 feet' by 12 feot in front of the place; there is only one closet to two houses. . 1936. By the Hon. H. F.Richardson.-Is that in the city .of Melbourne ?-It is· North J.fel­bourne; it is connected with the City.

1937. By the Ohairman.-What is the rent?­'Four shillings per week. , There are two' rooms; no bath or copper.

1938. How many people live there ?-A man and his wife in one, and a man and his wife and two children in another, and an old-age pensioner living in the other. Where the man and woman and two children live there is only one closet to

, two houses; they have to come out of the' front door and walk about 15 yards down the right-of­way to the closet. In Queensberry-place' there are three houses, Nos. 2 and 4 are two-story, ,vooden houses, three rooms ,each, rent 5s. 6d.; no back doors, small yards in front of the houses; only one closet to two houses. -193!;}. How many people live there ~-There are two adults in each. ' , 1940. By the Hon. J. G. Aikman.-Are they respectable people ~-Yes; they are respectable in all the places, only they are poor. We have no slums in North Melbourne at all such as they have in the city. We have not one brothel in N oi-th Melbourne; I have ~een there over 25 years.

1941. By the Ohairrnan.-They have no baths or coppers~-No; they have no conveniences whatever., They have to do' their washing and everything else in a little yard in front of the building. No. 5 Queensberry-place is a very old wooden house, four rooms,' in bad repair; rent, 75. 6d. per week; no bath, no copper, no washing troughs. ,

1942. Is there a back entrance 1-Yes. 194a. What is the frontage~-'-It has a fairly

goO'd depth, a good yard, but a narrow 'frontage. Highbank-place, off Ohetwynd-street, North Mel­bO'urne, thl'eehouses, two-story, wooden houses, fOUl' rO'oms, two upstairs arid 'twO' downstairs; very bad repair; rent, 7 s. 6d.; no back doors, no back entrance at all; spare piece of grou.nd in front, and the elosets in ironto£ the front door,

on this spare piece of gtound. Each h6use ha~ I separate water-eloset in front of the front doo:r; they are very bad hOllses.

1944. By the Han. J. G. A'ikman.-There is plenty of land for building in North Melbourne ~ -No; it is pretty well taken up nQw. Jacoby­lane, off Arden-street, there is one house in that, an old wood and brick building, two-story, three rooms; rent, 6s.; a yard about 7 feet in front; the eloset about 7 feet from the front door: No. 7 Arden-street,a very old, bluestone and brick building, six rooms; rent,. 5s.; a shop front, very low roof. '

1945. By the Ho,n. II. P. Richardson.-Do you suggest that those houses should be condemned ~ - Yas, and pulled down. They are too old to repair; and those that are not too old to repair are in unhealthy places, not fit to live in. They are housed iIi with big buildings all round, ana no ventilation ever comes into them.N o. 7 Arden-street ·is a fine block of ground; with a big yard. It has a frontage of about 30 feet, and good buildings could be built on it. The depth is about 90 feet. rrhebuilding is almost tumbling down; the people in it at present have been in it over 20 years, and have been paying rent all the, time, and there has been little or no repairs done to it all the time they have been ,in it. Bowwater-Iane, NO'. 7 is a very old wooden hO'use of one story, four rooms; rent, 88.; no bath, no copper, no washing troughs. Four adults and four children live there.

1946. By the Ohairman.-Is there any means of the children getting out to play on any reserve? -No; the nearest place is the Royal Park, and that is nearly a quarter-of-a-mile away. There is only a lane for them to play in. No. 2 and No. 4 are two small wooden houses, three rooms, nO' bath, no copper, no washing troughs. The rooms are very small,and ,they are occupied by adults-­two.in one, and one in the other. They are old­age pensioners, r think. I have not the rent. Oxford-street, N'os. 22 and 24, two very, old wooden hous¢~, in bad repair; three rooms; rent, 7s.; no'bath, up cO'Pper, no washing troughs; very sman yards. These are occupied by families of

[,two and three children. Oxford-place, of I. Oxford­,street, Nos. 4 and 5, ,very old wooden buildings. ,.:N',o. 5 is occupied by twO' old-age pensioners. No. ,4-is occupied by a man and his wife and two f!hil-dren; noc'copper, tib batll., and very much cMsed in; the rent is 5s. a week. W reckyn-street, Nos. 30 and 32, two very old wooden buildings, threl~ rooms; rent, 8s.;· no bath, no copper, no washing trough~. They are occupied by families, husband and WIfe and three chlldren, and husband and wife and two children.

194:7. By the Hon. J. G. A~man.-Are thOSl3 men in constant worH-No; they are the same class-hawkers, marine dealers, and 80 on. Ooui-tney-place, Nos. 1, 3~ and 5, three very small, old, wooden houses, three rooms; rent, two '5s., and one at 6s. 6d.; no baths,' no copper, very small yards. ' One house, the closet is only 4 reet froni the back door. . 1948. By the, Ohai1'm11tn.-Could those houses

be let agaip, g-I suppose other people would take them; but, in my opinion, they should not be .allowed to live in them; th$y should be pulled dOi'lll.

1949. Perhaps, the)andlora, does n?t.liketodis­tutb them ~ ....... y es; some have been livmg there a long time. Union·place, NOB. 5 and 7, three

r; .. ,

fO" John LOOrhe.ttt. 26th J,.lay, 1914.

rooms, no bath, rid copper, flo washing troughs; rent, 5s. •

1950. How many tenants are there?-A wife and husband and one child; and in the other place there are two adults. No. 11 Little Howard-street, very old wooden buildings, occu­pied by the owners, in very bad repair; no bath, no copper, very low roofs. All those houses I have mentioned are not fit for human habitation, in my opinion. The total is 37. If some of them were pulled down, the Oity Oouncil would not allow anvother houses to be built there. Fac­tories could "be built there; in other cases, good houses could be built. If -the houses in High­bank-place were pulled down, a good h9use could be built facing Ohetwynd-street; there is suffi­cient depth. The same with No. 7 Arden-street; a good house could be built there. Where there is rjght-of-way property, if the house is pulled down, the Oity Oouncil will not allow another house to be built.

1951. Are any of the houses condemned that you have mentioned ~-No, I do not think sd, so far.

1952. The Health Officer has never visited the place ~-I could not say; the Oity Oouncil have done a lot of good work in North Melbourne since they have taken it over; a great many houses hav.e been condemned. If a house is condemned they have to put on certain repairs, and if they do that they might be passed as fit for habitation. A lot of houses have been repaired in North Mel­bourne through being condemned, and brought up to a proper standard; the council has done won .. derful work since they took over N ortp :Melbourne in 1905.

1953. Have you any idea how many houses - have been condemned and demolished in North

Melbourne, since the Oity Oouncil took it oved­In 1906 two were condemned and repaired; in 1907 eleven were condemned, nine were repaired, and two demolished. In 1908 nine condemned, and nine repaired; 1909 sixty-two condemned, fifty-two repaired, seven demolished, and three vacant; 1910 twenty-three- condemned, nineteen repaired, foul' demolished; 1911 Jour condemned, two repaired, two demolished; 1912 thirty-eight condemned, thirty-six repaired, one demolished, and one vacated; 1913 twenty-seven condemned, seventeen repaired, two demolished, and ;tw.o :vacated, and six in kan.d; lU4, fortycQndemned, five repahcd, five vacat!3l:l., and _ thi:J;·ty IIi hand.

1954. B:q the Hon.- -E. Il. Ri.cka;Mson.-Do the council compel the enforcement of a l'easo:p­able amount of repairs to the buildings ~-Yes. I "understand, when a house is condemned and a notice put on it, the o,vuer has to go to the Oity Oouncil, and he gets told all the repairs that he has to put on to the house from them before he starts to repair; he knows- what he has to ao before he starts; then he does the repairs, and the Health Officer COmes and inspects the house before it is re-let.

1955. By the Ohai'l'man.-What is the- total number of houses that the Oity Oouncil have demolished in North Melbournd-Eighteen in nine years-repaired 151, vacated 11, in hand 36, condemned 216. ' ,

1956. What do you mean by condemned?­Those are the houses that were condemned, the rest were repaired, demolished, vacated and still in hand:-216 houses they :/,lave had under review.

1957. By the Hon. J. G. 11ibnan.-I suppose ,there are hundrcds that do not go as far as being

condemned; they' are repaired when the Health Officer visits them ~-Yes; they are not put on the list at all. If 'I put in a complaint about a house, the Inspector would say, "I wiII go and see about it." It would not be listed at all. He would say, ",Tho is the owner or the agent," and it would be put in repair-that house would never be listed,

1958. The council will not take action until they are forced to ~-':'l'hat is so.

1959. By Mr. Baird.-Has there been any diffi­culty in getting other houses for the people who have been put out ~-N 0, I do not think so. In the last ten years in North Melbourne there have becn an awful lot of small. houses pulled down, and factories and shops built, and it does not seem to make much difference to the people; they seem to find other houses~N orth Melbourne has a floating population; they shift about a good deal.

1960. By the Ohairman.-The area of North Melbourne is very small ~-Yes, it is not a very large place. '

1961. By ,,/.1([1'. Bai1·d.-What' is the rent of a decent place for those people to live in in North Melbourne?-From lOs. to 15s. a week, you will get a decent house in North Melbourne.

1962. With all those conveniences and a decent amount of land ~-Yes, I pay 11s. for a house with a "bath, copper, and every convenience-a two­storey brick house.

1963. By the Hon. H. F. Richardson.-Rents seem very low compared with other suburbs~­Yes, they are.

1964. By ]vb,. Bai1·d.-Would lOs. or .11s. be outside the means of those people that live in' those houses?-Yes, with a lot of them I think it would; they do not earn much money, and they have a large family of young children, and it costs them a lot to live. There are a number of boarding -p.ouses and lodging houses in North l<lelbourne, and a lot of those people go into thcm and take rooms.

,1965. By the Hon. H. F. Richardson.-Are there many houses let out in single rOOms ~-A go'od few; the most of them are delicensed hotels,

1966. What do the rents run there for these rooms ~-N o. 41 Cobden-street is; a delicensed hotel, ten rooms, kept by a woman and her

,daughter. There arc eleven adults in the house; they rent the rooms' and live and eat almost in the one room; some of them get their meals at a restaurant, and some batch for themselves in the room they sleep in.

1967. By the Ohai'i"Inan.-Is thatcoillmon in North Melbourne ~-Ouly in these big places; they are cheap lodging hou~es.

1968. Are they men or women ~-Sometimes men, women, and children.

1969. By the Hon. H. F. Richardson.-Living insingle rooms~-Yes, sometimes they have two rooms between the -family.

·1970. What do they pay for those rooms 1-From 4s. to lOs. per room; in these places there are very large rooms and pretty good conveniences -there, are a couple of closets in most of the places and large rooms. '

1971. They rent them from 258. to 30s. a week and let them at from 4s. to lOs. a room ~-Yes.

1972. By the Ohail·man.-Is that furnished or un:£ul'nished ~-UDfu1'D.ished mostly.

1973. Are there many of those pouses in North Melbourne ~-There are seven used as boarding bOlises. - . ,

, ,.nil. ·~u

1974:. By the Hon. J., (j, Aikman:-=-Tl;!.erewerebath; nO. cePPer;no. treughs! smaIi- yards. There semewherE> abo.ut sixty delicensed in NetthM~I- are two. peeple living i~ ene, three in anether, and beurne ~~Fifty-seven I think; Ii 'nllinber Qf,tho.se four in anQther: Little Curzen-street, N QS. 6 and places were built into two. hQuses and let asprivat~, 8, weatherboard hQuses; five small rQQms, rent 9s.; houses. no. bath, no. cepper. Nos, 10 and 12, fQur roQms,

;1975, By the Ohairman • ..:-Yeu have, a gQQd rent '8s,; no bath; hQ cQPper. No.. 16, weather­knQwledge Qf the whole Qf the district of N Qrth b.oard, five reQms, rent 13s.; nO. bath, no. copper, MclbQurne?~ Yes. , fairly large yard, N es. 18, 20, and 22, small brick

1976. Y Quhave said there, are thirty"seven heuses, th!,ee rQQms, rent 6s. 6d:; no. bath, no. heuses within yQur Qwn knowledge that are unfit CQPper. No.. 24; wQeden hQuse, fQur ~eQms, re~t fQr human habitatiQn ~'-'-Yes. 8s.; no. bath, no. cQPper, no. trQughs; in bad repair. , 1,977 ... ;Hav,e any ef thQse prQpertiesbeen cQn- 1990. Hew do.' the peQple who. have no. cQPper demned by tl1e City CQunciH-'-N9t ,to. fuykliQw- wash their clQthes ~-"-They generally use a kere· le~ge; there is nq nQtice en any Qf the d.QQrs that sene tin, No.. 26,' five rQQms, brick, tent 8s.; no. I have been rQund to.: ' bath; no. ~opper. NQs. 28 ahd 80, brick; three , i91$., n ih,o\'8 hQuses were dem9li~ed, WQul~ i.t rooms, rent 9s.; no. bath no Copper, no washing

clear NQrth lffelbQurhe Qf the whQle Qf the bad trQughs. There are Ii number Qf children living h,ousiI!-g accQmmQtiatie,n ~-NQ, there are a lQ,t Qf inthooe houses; it is a very narrQW street. Little Qther hQiI~es that cQuld.be cQndemned, but ~f. tp.ey OufzQn-place, N QS. 1, 2, 3, 4, and' 5, small brick were repaired they Wo.uld be fit fQr huma,n habita- t~rrace, tl;!.re~ rQQms each; rent 6s.:; very small tiQP· , ': '", , ",' yards, no. bath, no. cQPper. The ftQntage is abQut

1979. It is Ii questiQn of making the landlord ,75 feet fo.r the five heuses by abQut 45 feet ~epth, keep his p~rty.in pr,Qper. Qrderf-Yes. , 'and a very narrQW right-ef-way in frQnt. There

19'80. r 135liird. Of Health,hils power to insist are a number Qf young children' there; there is no upon, that ~~ ¥ElS, iIi my opiiiiQp. every house playgrQund at all. . should have a bath 'and cQPper iii it. " . , ' i991. By tke ,Ohairman.--:-They have public _ 1981. Oan you give any reas'on why tM, ,Oity paths in N Qrth MelbQurne ~-'-Yes, they have public

Courrcil h'as not given any brders as to the thitty- baths. seven hi)uSes1~N6, I cannijt give any reason:..:...:. 1992. That is pretty well used~~Yes, there,has they are very bad houses fer children to live in. _ been a 'great improvement in the, cl:tildren since

1982. Y o.U have mentiQned ,two :or thfee, pro~ the paths were established. The children frequent pertres where th'ere is no yard and no back 'en- the baths veJ;y much, but the elderly peQple do. no.t trance, and the wat'er~cleset is in front Qf the front go very mucl:t, especially the peeple iI!- tliQse small deo.r. Can yQU assume any reaso.n why the 'authe- prQperties; they wQrk hard, and by the time they rities have all'owed a state Qf things like that to. get ho.me aI!-d h~ve their tea they are ready to go. exist?-,-NQ. to. sleep. AnQtheJ thing is that they do. .nQt care

1983. Is it a proper thing fer them to. exist ~-'-'- to. go. Qut pecause their dress is not very elabQrate, No., that is why I mentio.ned it. If.r were in=- and they do. nQt care to. mix with the Qther peQple. spect9r, thi!j Highba-nk-terrace would be the first Atkins-street, off Queensberry-street, there are two. that I WQuld have ,put 'out. hQuses, four ro.ems, 12s. a week, in very bad re-

1984. ThQse ,places are sew-ered new ~,-,y es. pair, no. bath, no. cQPper. Purcell-street, N QS. 1 \ 1985. D~.yOh remember tpem befQre tliey were and '3, two., small wQQden ho~ses, fQur rOQms) rent

, sewered ~-Yes. lOs., ne bath, no cep-per. BelmQre-,plaee, NQs. 2, , 1986. It must have been very unpleasant befQre If:, and 6, wQo.den buildings, five rQQms, rent lOs:,

they were se\vered ~..:....Yes. l?,mall yards, il!- bad rep,air, no bath; no. cQPper. ,1987. How Far are the clQsets away frem the Scetia-street, Nos. 4, 6, 11; and 17, small weoden

windQ>ys o.r d(;)Or!, ?-T.wenty-five er thirty feet hbuses, three, roo.ms, rent 6s. to. 7s., no. bath" no. frQm the frQnt do.Q!" ilust in a vacap.t piece o~ copper, ... small yards" i¥ bad repair. Bendige­grQund in frQnt; each 9ne sitting at the dQQl', ean ~ti!eet, lfQs. 24, 26, and 28, small houses, rent 7s. see the ether peQple walking ·across. "', 6d. no bath, ,no cop'per, no washi~g 'tr~ughs,ih . 198'8., $peaking Qf the ho.using cond~tiQ:ns, of ,bad repair. , Little ByrQn 'et, ~o'~. 16 ,and 18,

thQse th~rty-sev\'ln ,J:.0u ,have, mentiQne_d;, what small brick h'op-ses, 'two. re relit 68. 6d., very llumber shQul~ tlfe Qity. CQuncil 0.1' the Bea:rd of low walls, in bad repair, no. bath, no copper. Health ferce the landlQrds to put in.pro.pe!'..Qrq.ed Byron~street, NQs. '~O, 14, 20, 22, and 24, £lIhall -I CQul,9. give a grel:t~ number 'E!f Q'th~rs. Raglan- houses, in had repair, no bath, iro' copper. Pear­~treet" No., 5, a bi:i~k and, weatheJ;bO'ard' place:; sQn,:'place, foul' ho.uses, SIilall ro.oms, tent abQut '6s., tnei'e jls 'il large stable ::ft'tachea. 1:.0. that; 'th!3 ,rent s~all yards, very much closed' in, 11. '8ma]~ right:.'Qt­is 15s. 6d. per weeK.' Three adults and three 'Way. 'Chetwynd'-stre'et, NQs. 52, 54,56, 5'8, 63, 65, cMMi'€ln iive 'there. No baths, no. ~QPpel', an:d' ,in 91:, 1'(1)'5, '101. and 1'09, Qld pro~erty, in had r~Ji.air, very bad repair. N o.s. 7'uiId 9 Ra:glan.::street,: two, ' nq oathS, no cQPper's, no washIng troughs: War­tQoms;I'emt '5s.; no hath, no. cop'per. He. 15, b)iick, WicK:~sti'eet, No.s. 2, if, 6, 8, 10, 12,anti'14,very'Qld lIo.use, 'four ,rOQmS, tent"7a. 60..; no oath, nb.':cQPp'er wQQden buildings, rent 68. Bd. to 98., 1iQ~ bath, iio. -nine persens living in tlte 'trS)118e, tWo iadult's 'B!nd copper. Nos. 1o, '1'7, and 21, 'QM wQeden ou~ld­seven 'cb%lxeD:. The terranfs have been' tli~re.'for ~ngs, in bad.repair, no. bath, no. co.Pper, n:tnvash~ng Seven yea:rs. iN1is. ~6 'anq 18; two. 'small 'Weath'er'- trou-glls. :Ga-r,<finer::st'reet, Nos. 2 'and~ '4,wooden ooa.fd: h61¥ses" 'tent '68. '6d ... ; ito oath,' 'no copp,'er. 'buil'dirrgs; low wall's, iii. ve'ry bad' repair, lli;i 'hath, N<rs. 20, 22~ and' :24 'Smali '15rriC'k ho.u$s;' three no di1ipper. , Nos. f, :3, 5, and 1'[, 'small btidt houses, ro.Qms, rent 8s. 6d.; no. bath; no' copper: NQ:,,2'6\ ':vailt lalb6uf 'ls. '6d:. a 'week, he 'b'a't'li,:ti6 c'oppe:i:.S't. weatliel'boa4:-d., lOUT ;roQms, nine 'pel's0lls residing Andrew's-~treet, No.. 12, small wo.o.d~n h6iIse, 'tli'ree thete:-:-three 'a;d1]l1ts ahd -S~ 'cQilO.:ten'. '[':lie O'\Vners r~6m:s, ,in :ba:-d repair; 'n:o bath" n'0\~coppe'r.. 'Gb~i,e; live, theIle, "8t;reeii, iN 08, '20~ ,24:, 2-6, Bind: 28,s'l:rl1Blt wQ0den 'DU1M-

1989. By the' 'Hon. :]J[.. Fe. Riiharasb>ft,:~'i"l:i:ere ib:gs, :three ,rooms, :ren:t 9s. ;te,10's; ild. ~! 'lYe"Elk; ~nQ are, 'not many 'QWTI£jrS liv;¥hg ,in tlioSe' 'plarce'S?- b:aith:,no,coj1jJer., ~n6 washIng trouglis; ~l'tfbad, r.tt-V:e-ry few 0WI:lBFs.::bi.ttle Erro-l-'stireet, Nr08-. 5., 17;_ P'a;i·:!:,. 'Can:m:i:lg;;place, NQs. 1,2, 3; and 4, woo'den 9, and 11; three-rQQmed brick ho.uses, rent 6s.'i_IrO ;buiMings, three rQoms, ,relit w'b'Q'Ut, fIs.6d. :a week,

no bath, 110 copper. Arden-street, Nos. 33 and 35, wooden buildings, in very bad repair, no cop­per, no bath, no washing troughs, Leveson-street, Nos. 79, 81, 83, and 85, old property, in bad re­pair, no bath, no copper, no washing troughs.

1993. By the Ohairman.-Are all those places sewered ~-Yes, all the properties in North Mel­bourne are sewered. Vale-street, Nos. 10,12,15, 17, 19, 21, and 23, old wooden buildings, in bad repair, no bath, no copper. High-street, Nos. 1, 3, 11, and 15, very old ,!:!uildings, in bad repair, no bath, no copper. Little Arden-street, Nos. 1,2,3, 4, 16, 30, and 32, old property, small rooms, small yards, no bath, no copper. Little Lothian-street, Nos. 2, 4, 6, 10, 11, 12, 16, 17, and 19, very old buildings, in bad repair, no bath, no copper. Ivor­place, Nos. 1, 3, and 4, old buildings, no bath, no copper. That is about all.

1994. Are those houses that' you are speaking of occupied mainly by the artisan class ~-Yes.

1995. Are there many people living in those properties ~-Yes, there are a great number of young children.

1996. Are the streets fairly open 1-Yes, they are fairly good, open streets, and if the properties are repaired, and baths put in, they would be fairly good houses for tenants to live in, but most of them are in bad repair, with no baths and no coppers.

1997. Are many of the places owned by the people who live in them ~-Very few.

1998. What effect has it on the children to live in those lanes?-It is not a healthy place for them to be brought up.

1999. You have seen tHem grow up?-Yes, I have seen them grow up small and miserable children. I can see the difference between them

C;:-and children brought up in healthier places. In a great number of those places there 'are very young children, and they are brought up in those. small houses until som.e of them are able to work, and when they go out and earn, then there is more money coming into the house, and they move into' a bigger house and a bigger street. There are more young children living in those small streets than in the big streets in North Melbourne, be­cause there is only one earning, and the family is young. As SOon as they can they mOve into a bigger house and a bigger street, and they live under better conditions.

2000. The poorer the people, the worse chance for the children 1-Yes. .

2001. By the Ohairman.-Do you know if the City Council are aware of those houses that you have mentioned ~-Y es; I know they are doing a lot down in Little Lothian-street and in Chetwynd­street; there have been three or four houses con­demned in Little Lothian-street and two in Ohet-wynd-street. <

2002. In any cases brought before the Oity Oouncil have the Council taken prompt action~­In any case I have brought before them they nave.

2003. By the Hon. H. F. Richardson.-Are many ~f those houses owned by the same landlord? No; dIfferent people. The agents are very good; if the police go to them, they will give all partiCli­Iflrs.. If the police say a house is not fit to live in, they say, " We will get it repaired"; and very often they do it, without its goin~ to the Oity Oouncil at all. . '

2004. Are there many houses that have been occupied by persoils suffering from infectious dis: eases?-Not a great number; I have h~ard of some, but not many; they are fumigated and put in proper repair ..

.1ohn toorham, 26th May. 1914,

2005. What becomes of the material of those houses thatar,e condemned ?-A great number are removed whole; put on wheels, and brought away

. as if they were to be shifted to some other locality. , 2006. By the Hon. H. F. Richardson.--;-Is there any vacant land in- North Melbourne smtable for children's playgrounds?-Not to make a play­ground of; the Oity Oouncil have reserves on por­tions of the streets there that are very good for the children residing close to them. In Oanning­street a very nice reserve has been built, and down opposite the public baths in Macauley-road there is a very nice playground. .

2007. North. Melbourne is fairly well provided with playgrolinds~-In that place, and in other places, they go to the Royal Park and Flagstaff Gardens; but in those rights-of-way the children

. generally play round where they are-the mothers camiot go and 10.ok after them, and. take them to the playgrounds, and the children are too young to go by themselves.

2008. )Vhy do you say there are no slums in North Melbourne?-The police are pretty active, and the ap;ents are very good. Occasionally we have people of that class come to live there, and the respectable people make a complaint; we go to the agents, and the agents remove them, and send them away. We have very few living in North Melbourne. We have not a brothel in North lfelbourne, and very few prostitutes. If the agents get a complaint from respectable peo­ple, they complain to the police, and the police find out who the people are, and, when they are satisfied, they say to the agent, "You had better remove those people; they are not suitable for the place." . . . 2009. By Mr. Baird.-The first thirty-seven

houses you spoke about you would condemn alto-gether.1--'-Yes. ,

2010. There have been forty condemned thIS yein b;v the Oity Council; that makes seventy-seven altogether. Would those seventy-seven being con­demned make any difficulty in the people getting houses?-I do not think so. The fort:v that have been condemned have not been demolished: five 'have been repaired, thirty are in hand, and nve have been vacated.

2011. What. do they do when they condemn them and the repairs are going on; are the tenants there ~--:.N 0; often they will move one tenant; if there are three or four houses adjoining, they will repair one house and shift the people from the next into that, arid repair that house, and so on.

2012. By lb. Menzies.-You would always need to -have a vacant house to carry that out~­Yes ..

2013. Are there man.y vacant houses 1n North Melbourne~-No, not a great number., There is a large block of land where the old Benevolent Asylum was, :l.bout 10 acres, and building-s do not seem to be goin~ up very fast there; it has been cut up into building allotments. I suppose it is Government property; they are not building on it very freely. The houses that have gone up are very good houses.

2014. B;, Mr. Ootter.-How does the number the council have condemned during the last nine :veal'S compare' with the previous nine years 1-BefDre the City Council t90k over North Mel­bourne there were very few houses condemned. When they got in such bad :repair that the, people

. could not live in them, the police went to the agents and had them partly repaired; but very few houses were pulled down before the City Council took over North Melbourne.

o·

2015. By the Ohai1·man.-Why, )vas thad-:-, are very small and low, in bad condition. A The local council did not take so much interest in large yard in the front of the house; poultry and it;, they did not want to fall out 'with the resi~ everything are ~ept in the front; there ~re nO back dents; the City Council are more indeperide'nt~, > ' premises at the rear, '

2016. You think there woulll be very little dif- .: 2031. By the llon. 11. P. Richa1'dson.-Is ficulty in the people finding. accommodation if poultry allowed to be kepH-Yes, it is kept there. ,those places were pulled down. You also' say Further on there are four four-roomed two-storied there are ,very few,houses to let' in Nort,h Mel- houses of wood, no hath, copper, 01' troughs, and bourne; where would those people get accommo- 110 back yards; the rent is 58. a week. From two dation ~-They would go into some of the'largel' to four persons live in each. Auderson-itreet, houses; they would pay a very.little mOl'e rent. Nos. 1 and 3, three rOoms eaoL, rent '[ s, 6d., no

2017., Would not that have the tendency,to force batll, copper, or troughs. Four children in No. 1 the people into the flat system,and rent I), roo,ll1, 01' and'four adults in No.3. Nos. 24, 26,28, and 30, two rooms in 'u larger building?-Yes, it might four-houses, very small, about 60 feet depth, rent for the time. '" " 7s. 6d., bath, but no, COppCl' 01' troughs; from two

2018. Then you have an overcrowded pro- to four persons in each house; the rOoms are very perty?-Yes, you would have those big, cheap small; the front door opens iuto the front room; lodginghouses overcrowded. , . , the ceilings are low. Nos. 39 and 41, four rooms

2019. You ,would not do .all this work at' oIlce;' each, no bath, copper 01' troughs. Nos. 62 you would do it gradually~...:.-Yes, that.is so;·r and 64, three rooms each,' rent 8s. No. would not suggest to have it all done in one'month 48, three rooms, parents and two in family, or two months. ' , 8s. rent, no bath, copper or troughs. No.

2020. There is 'at present a demand ~or decent ,67, four rooms, 7s. rent, three persons resid­accommodation hi N orth ~felbourne?-Yes; there ing, no bath, copper,' or troughs; that is a two-are not many vacant houses.' story house of brick. No. 69, wooden house, three

2021. By, t,he, Hon. J. G. Aikman.-Do!"s not rooms, rent 7s.; three petsons and three children the Victoria Market make hawkers want to live residing, no bath, copper, or troughs. Shelley­near~-Yes. \, , , street, a terrace of five houses of good appearan0c,

,2022. By the Oha1:rrnan,-You say large nUlll- , four rooms, rent 118., no bath, copper, or troughs, .bers of the houses have no bath or other con- very ·small yards, except No., 17, which has n. veniences;' do you consider that every house should decent yard, Garfield-street; a terrace of six' have a bath ?-I do. brick houses, three rooms, starting with No. 17,

2023. Where the' people have no bath, would rents 9s., no bath, copper, or troughs, good yards, they ·use a ,bath if they had one~-I am almost hut the rooms are very small. Nos. 55, 57, and sure they would. I know of numbers of cases 59, the houses were coridemned 011 the 28th of 18st where they have to bath in a big tub after the month; they are three rooms each, two pcople re­children go to bed; they will, get hot water and siding ill No. 5'7, paying 6s. 6d. rent ; No. '59, have a bath in,a tub before they go to bed. three rooms, six children and parents, 6s. remp'

2024. What percentage of houses 'in N ?~th no bath, copper, or troughs in either of them; Melbourne have no bath?-Very few of the houses in very bad order. ,Those places should be pulled r have mentioned have either copper or bath, I ,down at once; they are not tit to live in. Regent:­cannot give you an idea of the percentage. _ street, a terrace of eight houses, brick, fOlll' rooms,

2025. Do you find the ventilation bad,JIl:. t1:\Rse 'rent 12s., no bath, copper, or troughs; they are places ~-Yes, especially. in the ones I have m~n- houses of good, appearance and a good street, and tioned that should be condemned; they were built ' ~vith. medium yards. . many years ago, when ventilation was not thought- 2032. By 2I{1'. 11lenzies.-How long have those much of; and there is no ventilation at aU in sOlle houses been built ?-A number of years. They are. of them. . old houses. Hopetoun-crcscent, a lane off Smith-

2026: And being overshadowed by the hou'ses sheet, two .wooden houses, four rooms, rent 12s.; ;tl'ound is "a further disadvantage?-Yes, a very there is a bath, copper, and troughs, hut it is ir~ a great one. " . right-of-way. Kingstoncplace, off Egan-street,

2027. By·the lIon. J. G. Aikman.-In weather- Nos. 1, 2; and 3, three rooms, 8s. reut, parents and board houses, if they want ventilati~n,' they can four in family. In No.1, no bath, copper, 01'

make a square hole, anywhere~-Yes, they 'can t,roughs, very small yard. This is a right-of-way. easily get v(311iilators put in; but very few tenants ' No. 2 is o,'1o'11ed by the person residing;. the yard will put in v!:lntilators themselves; the agent might is very small, the houses are small, and the rooms put on an extra, 6,d. a week. " . very small; there is a side passage to each of them,

The witness 'withd'rew. I have finished with , Kingston-place. Bridge­

" .Albert Edward Koetsyeld, sworn and examined:'

2028. By the.'; Ohai'rman,.-What are you ~­Plain-clothes co~stable in Richmond. '

2029. How many yeats have you, resided in Richmond ~-Tw:elve years. I have been on duty the whole of that time, and have a tJlOrough know­ledge of .the whole district.

2030. You have had a special investigation of the housing a<}coinmodation in Richmond ~-Yes, starting from Victoria-plaee, off Church-street, just at the back of Victoria-street, No.1, three, rooms, 5s. rElllt, five children and parents, two of the cliildl'en sleep with' l'elatives close by. There i" no bath; or coppor, )101' trotlghs. The rQonis

1111> ...... 1

street : No. 40 is a small wooden tenement, contain­ing three rooms, the rent is Os. per week, no bath, copper, or troughs. We have then a right-oi-way off Murphy-street, Roulston-place. There are two cottages in this ,right-of-way, each containing three small rooms, the rents are 6a. 6d. each; there are no baths, coppers, or troughs; they are each tenanted by elderly people, two in each., Palmer·· place: To reach this place you go ,up a right-of­way off Palmer-street, There are two wooden double-fronted ' houses, each containing three rooms; the rent is 7 s. each; there are no, baths, coppers, or troughs. These places are built right behind the cottages facing Palmer-street. Then we have the Chinese gardens, in Burnley-street; there are,four houses in these gardens. In.one of these houses three Chinese arid two ,\y()meli live.

.'

It is close to Burnley-street; the building is in very bad condition. One woman is a half-caste; she is married to a Chinaman, and lives with him absolutely. The other one is married to another Ohinaman, and she lives with him solely. One of the other houses contains four rooms; there are seven Chinese living in it; another of them. also contains four rooms, and there are three Chmese living in it. There is a big house in the l?wer garden, containing seven rooms, and sevenChmese live in it. Two of these houses have been recently huilt, and are really in good condition, but t~ey are kept in a filthy state; the ot~ers are old bUll~­ings. , Judd-street runs off BrIdge-road. It IS

fairly wide when you get to the bottom end; then it narrows into a right-of-way, only a portIon of which is pitched. Nos. 1 and 3 ,are, brick cottages, each containing four rooms, and the rentl:! of ~ach are 7 s. There ,arj:\ two persons residing in No.1, and three children and their parents in No.3. There a're no baths, coppers, or tro1,lghs, and the yard is very small. The lady in No. 1 told me that in winter time the rain rushes down J udd­street, and it is ,almost impossible for them to get

'out· it floods the ribO'ht-of-way which runs into , h . Cameron-street. In Hentv-street t ere IS a ter-race of ten houses, Nos: 2 to 20. There are four rooms in each house, and the rent is 98. for each house. There are no baths, coppers, or troughs. IIi No. 20 five children and their parents reside. The ten' cottages are on lmid 150 feet by 60 feet, and there is a 3-feet side' passage between each. The yards are very small; I should say they would not be 10 feet square, probably 10 feet by 15 fe~t,

, including the sanitary convenience and a shed m some of them. ,

2033. By the Ohairman.-Who built these houses ~-I could not tell you. , 2034. Are they building. society houses ?-I

think so; I believe they were origiJ~ally built by a building society. In Somerset-street there are two cottages, one a double-fronted cottage and the other a single; they are numbered 23 and 25 ; No. 23 contains' two rooms, and the rent is 3s. 6d;; there is an old lady living in it, and the place is

,very bad. No. 25 contains four, rooms, and the rent is 8s. 6d.; three children live there with their parents, and there is no bath, copper, 01' troughs. Both houses have to use the same yard. The building is straight up in fron~, with a skillion at the back; it is very, very old. T"

2035. In that case both parties wOl.dd use the one sanitary convenience ~-I beli~ve so. ~ did not look. No. 23 is about 9 feet wIde; that IS the frontage. The front room would be about 9 feet by about 14 feet, and the back room is just a little skillion; it is a miserable, dirty, little place. Flevil-street, fonnerly Little Smith-street, con­

. tains four cottages, wooden; they are OIl 60 feet of land by 63 feet;. the rent is 8s. 6d. for each. There are thirteen people living in the four; there are no baths, coppers, or troughs. There are side pas­sages between the houses. They are miserable little cottages, single-fronted, and stand right on to the water channel, except for a little bit 'of verandah. .

2036. By the' Hon. 'J. Sternberg.-Is there nO ,footpath ~-There is' one about 18 inches wide. No; 38 contains four rooms; the rent is 6s. 6d. There' are four children living there with their

,parents; there are no baths, coppers, or troughs. No. 40 contains four rooms; the ~ent is 8s.; there are seven children living there with their parents, and one' boarder, a brother of the lady of the

, house; no l?ath, copper, ,or troughs; there is a good

yard. No. 42 contains three !o.oms) the rent is 6s. 6d.; there are two persons hVlllg III the hou~; there is no bath, copper, or troughs. No. 50, thu. house was condemned on the 27th of last month by the Richmond City Council; two persons still live there; there is no bath, copper, or troughs; the rent is,9s.

2037. Is it in a very dilapidated state ~-Very bad. At the back of No. 50 if you go up a little passage about 3 feet wide lor about 120 feet or more you will come on a thre€Hoomed wooden cotta~e, the rooms ar~ very small, averaging about 8 feet x 8 feet-one IS 8 feet x 10 feet, there -are two persons living th&'e, the rent is 8s. a week, there is no bath, copper; or trough.

,2038. By 1lfr. Ootter.-How do they get on in case of fire ~-It would be a very difficult matter to get out if there was anything in the. line of fire, especially if there was any blockage m the front -they could not get out, in fact. No~. 56 and 58 contain three rooms each, the rent IS 7s. each, there is no bath, copper, or trough. No. 54 has been condemned' it contains four rooms, and the rent is lOs., three persons reside there. The building is very old and should ~e p~lled d~Wl:. No. 76 contains three rooms; the rent IS 7s.; It IS in bad condition, two persons are residing there. There is no bath, copper, or trough. No. 64 con­tains four rooms; the rent is 9s., there is no bath, copper, or trough. No. 66. contains three rooms; the rent is 78. 6d.; there IS no bath, copper, or trough. That is practically the whole of the houses in that street, except a very, very few. Nearly every house in the street is without any convenience whatever.

2039. By the Hon. J. G. Aikman.-I8 Rich­mond all severed W-Yes; the street is very narrow. Palmer-street: Nos. 80 and 82 each contain four rooms three children live with their parents in one' the rents of each are 7s. 6d., and there are no baths, coppers, or troughs. Three children also reside' with their parents in the other. These places are in a very bad condition. ~here is a side passage be 'tween each of them leadmg to the yard, the drains are yery, very bad, the yards are miserably small. BrIghton-street: Nos. 12 and 14 each contain four rooms; the rent is 5s. each, and there are three persons in each, there are no baths coppers or troughs, the buildings are very old a~d in b~d condition, the verandahs in the front have absolutely rotted away-the boards have practically rotted away. They have not been condemned. The backs of the buildings are also in a very wretched condition and practically fall­ing down. No. 15 contains four rooms; the .owner resides there with his wife and five chlldren. There is a bath and copper; the building is very old. This building is the same as the last two. No. 18, adjoining it, contains two roo~sl and the rent is 5s., there are two persons resldmg here, there is only one yard for the two houses.

2040. By the Hon. J. Sternberg.-Do you re­member if any of these buildings have been con­demned?-No; a lot of places have been pulled down in Wright-street.

2041. Have they been condemned W-I have lJoen twelve years in North Richmond; I have been through South Richmond a good deal in c~n. sequence of this inquiry. I went to make specIal inquiries ..

2042. By the Hon. J. G. Aikman.-Have you ever drawn the attention of the Richmond CouIlcil

, to the brli1dings~-,;-N 0, I otily did so in connexion with two houses,' one in Little Wellington-street and (rile' in Ca:IDerou-street~tliey were condemned itnmedia.tely. That was when r inade inquiries about, six months ago. Shamrock-street, No. 12, contains four rooms, the rent is 713., the parents and four children reside there. There· is· a· bath, but~n6' COppel' or' trough. The roomS are very small; the two back rooms' are skil1ions, and are ver.y low.' 'At the highest PQiIit the two back rooms' would be about 8 feet high; and t~ey re-

, cede to about 6 feet. The la:nd is 4Q x 24. No. 10 has three rooms with the same frontage. No. 2 contains four rooms-'-the f)1'irner lives there" there is a bath and copper but no trough. The place is falling down,--the front has.~unk into the ground. There" is R large hall along side. , The depth· from the frontage to the baCK i8 only 40 feet. There are a number of' 'streets from the railway liIie right doWn until you come opposite the match: factdry. TheY' include W right-street, Willis-street, N orth­

'cote.-street, ahd Kingston-street. There is. only a depth of 'SO feet for twO' frontages' iIi the whole of the streets tight down' except AlbeJ:t:.street, which'tUns between. That has a fait, depth and contains good, honses. The other sireets J 'have named only' have a depth of 80 feet for two

·frontages. 2043. By the Hon., H. F .. Richardson.-Forty

feet eil-ch, :probably~'-Yes. In .one' place there is a little right-of-way called Selby-row; there are two houses there which contain four rooms each. The ,owners live in them. There a!esc!l:rcE;ly any yards to the houses, where the depth is 80 feet ~or two frontages. Kingston-street: , No. 1 contams three rooms; parents ang. one child live in it, the rent is 8s., there is no bath, copper or' trough. No.3. con tams three i'doms, the. rent is '7 s. 6d. a week; there. ate two children Hving there With their pafents, there is no bath, copper, or trdi.ighs, 'the hind is 24 f~t by 60 feet. '

2044. vv~ere do they dry their ciothes·?-;-They have to make the best of it, they have lines stretched across the yards. No. 5 contains three rooms acnd the'rent is 8s., there is a bath, but no copper. or trough. One adult and four children live there. Willis-street, that is one of the streets I have just mentioned: No., 10 contains. four rooms and, the'r-ent is 11s. and 6d" two chIldren

,ri:!Slde there with their parents; it is a br,ick cot­tage, good, but the rooins are very sn,lal!; there is a bath and copper but no troughs; It IS On land 40 feet x 24: feet. Nos. 2, 4, 6, and 8 are exactly tp.(j sarile; they are brick cottages, with the same frontages and the same depths; the rents are the ,same: They are not streets; only lanes. Some do ,not exceed 9 feet -or 10 feet in width,

2045, By the Hon. J. G: Aikman.--':H!ive, the houses been b.uilt in this way or have ,thei been filtered ~~They have beell 'altered from time to time; they were built iii the old days. Nos .. 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10 are reall:y new brick cottage~. . 2046. By Mr. Menzies.~What is the area?.:...c.

24 feet x 40 feet. . 2047. By the Hon. H. P .. Richardson.-Have

the Richirioiid Council any by~law as to the size '01 the aliotiilent~ these houses shall occupy~-I 'believ~ so. .

2048. Yet they have allowed thl~~-Thetrouble' is that the old surveys give ,the .choice of two '£rontag~§; 'not 6hly. that; ,there are different 'owners for every frontage;

2049'. By' Mr.M enzies.~How is the rear o~ the foremost frontage marked o:ff~-They only just go to the back fence. , '

, 2050. What is the line of separation between ~ . -There is only the' fence; there is no right-of,. way or anything of that kind., '

2651. By the Hon. it. F. i1ichardson.-Do they take the fuel In at the fr.ont dood-Some have side entrances. N orlhcote-stre~t : No. '[ is a three­roomed house, the rent ,is 7 s. Sd. a week;.; two children live there with their parents, there IS no bath, copper, or trough, the third room, is a skiilion 11 feet x 9 feet. The lang. is 30 feet x 40 feet. No. 5 IS a ,five-roomed hons~; the. rent is 12s" It is occupied by one adult and five children; there is a bath, copper, and ~roughs; the house is sinking from the front, it is decaying and going down. Walnut-street is a right-of-wa.y at the back of Chestnnt-street; it is a very narrow street-it is 'only a right-of-way, No.3 is a four­roomed houi;e, ,the rent is 8s.; on~ son resides there with his parents; there is no bath, copper, or troughs; th~ two back: r.ooms are skillions, one is very; very small; it is a' very old place and should be condemned; in fact, there are three or four in Walnut-street which I do not think: should be allowed there at alL Then you get into another patch of narrow streets running from the match factory to the railway line. includilig H6tham"place; William-street, Adelaide-street, Hill-street; Hutchin-street, ,Pearson"street, Adolph-street, and Railway-place;' they have an very narrow depths; two frontages cover 80 feet.

2052. By Mr. )lfenzies.-Whil.t is ~h~ Widthpf the streets~-Fifteen feet would probably be the Widest of imy. ,

2053. From house fu houSe ?"-Adelaide-street would be wider, JIil1-street would not, _ t think; be more than 15.feet. Pearson-street and Hill-street are very narrow, also Hutchin-street. They. are all 40-feet froutages, and the rents average rIght through the square up to about 88. and: 9s. It is impossible for me to describe th~m better, than I have done. N()doubt it is a problem in so far as that part o! Richmond ,is concerned' where the shallow depths exist. ' . . "

2054. By the ii on. H. F. Richardson.-Was the land, originally soid' by ,the Government or .privately?-I could not toll you. .

2055. By theCJ7;airman.-It would have had to be surveyed if it were Cllt Ul) by the City of Richmond Council ~-I think if the council had anything to do with it they would not have allowed such a state of affairs.

2056. By Mr: Menzie8.~No doubt it Was il. private subdivision?"-Yes.

201ft. By the Hon.,' H. P. Richar&on.-:-I;row many house~ _do you reckon have been ~rected .on these smaIi al1o~ments ~-'A good ma~y ~ave been puiled, do'\\'U. In Hill-street an~ Willi3;m-street 'there are several good lumps of land vacant.

. 2058. Why is the land vacant?-,-BecausEl the houses got unfit for habitation, ,people c9uld not live in them, !lnd they were pulled down;,

:2059. Why li.r,e not other ho'u8e8' erected in ili.'eIr stead ~-'-I could not say. 1¥yal-place, at the back of Swan-street : No. 1 COlitdins four tooms; the tent is 9s.; five adults and folir children live there; thel'e 'are no baths, coppers, ot ,troughs. There are :£ive houses occupied there of the same (lJass; N 6. 4,

. a four-roomed house, thteepers6lls residing in it; the rent is 8s .. 61i.; there :is ,nd bath, oopplirj or