joe manning interview

8/9/2019 Joe Manning Interview

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Phone Interview with Joe Manning

Joe Manning: Hello?

Genova Brown: Hello is this Mr. Manning?

Joe Manning: Yes it is, how are you?

Genova Brown: I’m fine, this is Genova from ownsen! Harris

Joe Manning: "#ay, an! am I $orre$t that you live aroun! the flushing area?

Genova Brown: Yes.

Joe Manning: Yea o#ay my wife was from that area. %he live! in &est Hem'stea!, out in (assau

)ounty. %o what $an I !o for you?

Genova Brown: "#ay, is it o#ay if I re$or! you to*

Joe Manning: "h $ertainly that’s o#ay with me.

Genova Brown: "#ay, than# you. "#ay so my first +uestion is how woul! you say ewis Hine

ha! left a lega$y to!ay?

Joe Manning: How woul! he have left a lega$y?

Genova Brown: Yeah.

Joe Manning: &ell a num-er of things, o-viously his $hil! la-or 'hotos, whi$h he’s 'ro-a-ly

-est #nown for, $ertainly not only in!i$ate! you #now, what our history was at that time among

'eo'le who wor#e! in mills an! fa$tories. n! you #now he ha! /,012 'i$tures that he too# in

that area an! 'ro-a-ly if he ha!n’t !one it no one woul! have ta#en the 'i$tures an! then no one

woul! have #nown what the 'eo'le loo#e! li#e an! what the -uil!ings loo#e! li#e. se$on!

lega$y is that he was one of the first 'ersons, 'hotogra'hers, to use 'i$tures to $hange 'u-li$

o'inion a-out an issue. He -elieve! that the 'i$tures themselves woul! $onvin$e 'eo'le that

what they saw in the 'i$tures was wrong an! it woul! $onvin$e 'eo'le mu$h -etter than it woul!


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-e to write stuff li#e that !own or news'a'er arti$les. n! thir!ly, this is sort of similar to the

first one, is that even though his 'i$tures were -est #nown as $hil! la-or 'hotos an! 'romote!

!ifferent $hil! la-or laws, right now a hun!re! years or so later they’re one of the few re$or!s

that we have of what 'oor $hil!ren loo#e! li#e, what they !resse! li#e, how they $om-e! their

hair, ty'es of things, the way they woul! loo# at that time. "therwise very sel!om were 'eo'le

ta#ing 'i$tures of 'oor $hil!ren those !ays. 3amilies !i!n’t have $ameras, they woul!n’t have

ta#en 'i$tures of their own families an! it is one of the few re$or!s we have of what $hil!ren

loo#e! li#e a hun!re! years ago.

Genova Brown: "#ay, than# you. n! woul! you say that these 'hotos were vital to the (ational)hil! a-or )ommittee?

Joe Manning: 4ery mu$h so an! they -elieve! that they woul! -e. It wasn’t Mr. Hine’s i!ea, it

was the (ational )hil! a-or )ommittee’s i!ea they felt that they ha! -een lo--ying for $hil!

la-or laws for a-out two years, when they -elieve! that 'hotogra'hing the $hil! la-orers woul!

-e a -etter way of $alling attention to it an! $ir$ulating those 'hotogra'hs aroun!. hey #new of

Mr. Hine’s wor# an! that he ha! ta#en 'i$tures at 5llis Islan! of the immigrants $oming in. He

was also ta#ing some 'i$tures of steelwor#ers, a!ult steelwor#ers in Pitts-urg an! they thought

he was the 'erson to !o it. hey really felt that the 'i$tures woul! -e hel'ful an! I thin# they !i!

not un!erstan! who they ha! hire!. he talent that he ha!, the !evotion Mr. Hine ha! to the

wor#. It was Hine’s way of ta#ing the 'hotos an! the things he sai! in the $a'tions an! his

s'ea#ing engagements an! everything else that he !i! that a!vo$ate! for $hil! la-or laws. hat

hel'e! to $hange** ma#e it a really im'ortant issue to 'eo'le an! $hange 'u-li$ o'inion.

Genova Brown: n! is that what ma!e his 'hotos so uni+ue?


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Joe Manning: &hat ma!e his 'hotos uni+ue was something that he !e$i!e! to !o that wasn’t

something that ha! -een !one -efore with 'hotogra'hs. Prior to his 'i$tures, you #now, using his

'i$tures for $hanging 'u-li$ o'inion, there have -een some 'hotogra'hs, famous 'hotogra'hs in

the 0672s of really !angerous an! !irty $on!itions in tenement housing in (ew Yor# for

immigrants. here was a man name! Ja$o- 8iis who** his name is s'elle! 8iis, not 8eese an!

Mr. 8iis too# a lot of 'i$tures of the terri-le $on!itions in the tenements, -ut he often too#

'i$tures of very !irty loo#ing $hil!ren laying on the groun!, or laying on the si!ewal#. he

#in!s of things that !i!n9t really ma#e 'eo'le feel, you #now, very goo! a-out the $hil!ren. In

some ways it ten!e! to reinfor$e the sort of ra$ist i!ea that immigrant $hil! were not worthy -e$ause they were from $ountries that !i!n’t s'ea# 5nglish, or the were !irty, or their $ulture

wasn’t goo!. Mr. Hine felt that ta#ing 'i$tures of the $hil!ren, the $hil! la-orers, that he nee!e!

to ma#e the $hil!ren loo# li#ea-le an! or!inary, not !irty. He !i!n’t want to over !o the 'i$tures.

He wante! to ust show the #i!s as -eing ust 'eo'le. %o when 'eo'le who weren’t aware of

$hil! la-or very mu$h an! saw the 'i$tures an! were awa#ene! to the i!ea that there was su$h a

thing going on. hey !i!n’t loo# at those $hil!ren an! say, ;oh loo# at those !irty $rummy

$hil!ren, no-o!y really $ares a-out them.< hey’! loo# at the $hil!ren an! say, ;well, why are

those ni$e loo#ing $hil!ren -eing su- e$te! to this #in! of wor#?<

Genova Brown: "#ay. n! !o you feel that ewis Hine !oesn’t get as mu$h attention or

a$#nowle!gement as other $hil! 'hotogra'hers, li#e Ja$o- 8iis, an! that he shoul!?

Joe Manning: Yea, I a$tually thin# it’s ha''ening. Mr. Hine -etween the time he !ie! in 07=2 an!

u' until 'ro-a-ly the a!vent of the internet, Mr. Hine’s wor# was only, you #now, #nown to a

few 'eo'le. His most famous 'hotos for a while were the 'i$tures that he too# of the -uil!ing of

the em'ire state -uil!ing. I !on’t #now if you’ve seen those 'i$tures, -ut he too# them in 0710.


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He a$tually went u' to the to' floors when they were -uil!ing the -uil!ing to ta#e 'i$tures of the

wor#ers -uil!ing the em'ire state -uil!ing. "n$e his 'i$tures were turne! over to the i-rary of

)ongress they were still availa-le, -ut only if some-o!y went into the li-rary to loo# at them. In

the early 0772s when the internet $ame in, the i-rary of )ongress !igiti>e! all the 'hotos an!

ma!e them availa-le on their we-site. I thin# that’s the most signifi$ant thing thats ha''ene! to

Mr. Hine’s 'o'ularity, that his 'i$tures woul! -e$ome availa-le an! free to 'eo'le an! there’s no

restri$tion to how you $an use the 'hotos -e$ause the $o'yrights on the 'hotos have e 'ire!. %o

any-o!y $an use the 'hotos, 'rint them. !o whatever they want with them. I thin# Mr. Hine now

is +uite famous again, sim'ly -e$ause 'eo'le $an see his 'i$tures,Genova Brown: "#ay, an! why were ewis Hine’s 'hotos su$h a sta'le 'art in the reformation

of $hil! la-or laws?

Joe Manning: )an you re'eat the +uestion 'lease?

Genova Brown: &hy were ewis Hine’s 'hotos su$h a sta'le 'art in the reformation of $hil!

la-or laws?

Joe Manning: &ell they were a 'art, they weren’t the only 'art. he most im'ortant thing the

'i$tures !i! was to raise the issue of it. You #now -efore that time, unless 'eo'le live! in a mill

town, fa$tory town or near a $oal mine, they woul!n’t have even -een aware that there was su$h

a thing as $hil! la-or -e$ause they weren’t near $om'anies that hire! them. Peo'le might have

live! in !ifferent #in!s of housing an! 'la$es where 'eo'le were mi!!le $lass or ri$h an!

woul!n’t ne$essarily have -een aware of all this. %o he 'u-li$i>e! the issues, he ma!e 'eo'le

loo# at it an! say, ;Gee, I !i!n’t #now this was going on.< t that time the only 'eo'le who

$oul! vote in the @nite! %tates were mostly white men, mi!!le $lass white men. fri$an

meri$ans $oul!n’t vote, they a$tually legally $oul! vote, -ut no one woul! register them to vote


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or allow them to vote. Poor 'eo'le very sel!om vote! -e$ause many of them $oul!n’t rea! an!

therefore they $oul!n’t 'ass the litera$y tests in or!er to get a voting registration. You ha! to

'u-li$i>e this issue among the 'eo'le who woul! -e voting, so Hine was trying to a''eal to the

mi!!le $lass an! u''er $lass men. hey woul!n’t have -een aware of $hil! la-or without these

'i$tures, -ut other things $hange! it to. "ne of things was unions, unions starte! to -e$ome very

effe$tive -a$# in the 07A2s. nother reason woul!9ve -een the great $hange in the way 'eo'le

loo#e! at $hil!ren, 'arti$ularly $hil! welfare wor#ers, so$ial wor#ers, the )hil! &elfare eague,

an! other organi>ations that felt $hil!ren nee! to go to s$hool an! -e ta#en $are of -etter. hey

e erte! a lot of 'ressure, -ut the main reason really was that the fa$tories** the 'la$es thatmanufa$ture! things, where they wor#e! in, -y the 07A2s ha! lots of mo!erni>ation of their

e+ui'ment. hat e+ui'ment ran more automate! than it !i! -efore an! it wasn’t a very suita-le

ma$hine to -e o'erate! -y a $hil!. In the ol! !ays the $hil!ren $oul! stan! ne t to a loom, or

something li#e that an! !o very sim'le wor# they $oul! s'aringly go in a wee#. But $hil!ren

really weren’t useful in the mo!erni>ation of the 'lants an! so the $om'anies sto''e! hiring

$hil!ren -e$ause they #new they woul!n9t -e a-le to a goo! o-.

Genova Brown: "#ay, $an his lega$y -e seen in the eating*"wen $t an! the 3air a-or $t?

Joe Manning: Yes, infa$t, the eating*"wen $t, I thin# you un!erstan! was overturne! -y the

$onstitutional !e$ision of the %u'reme )ourt in 0706. Ci! you #now that?

Genova Brown: (o I !i!n’t #now that.

Joe Manning: "#ay it was 'asse! in 070D, -ut in 0706 the %u'reme )ourt** there was a lawsuit

against it** against the $onstitutionality of the law. he @.%. %u'reme )ourt rule! that the law

was un$onstitutional -e$ause, in a sim'le way, it sai! that the fe!eral government !i!n’t have

enough 'ower over the state laws to $hange the law. n! so that a$t was a$tually en!e! in 0706.


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However, -e$ause it was a law in 070D, it was a law for two years an! it was enfor$e! for two

years. hat $ertainly sto''e! a lot of $hil! la-or, that was 'rimarily $ontri-ute! to ewis Hine’s

wor#. he 3air a-or %tan!ar!s $t wasn9t 'asse! until 0716, in that 'erio! of time, Hine’s wor#

'ro-a-ly ha! very little effe$t on that. t that 'arti$ular 'oint, $hil! la-or ha! !iminishe!

$onsi!era-ly. t that time the !emo$rati$ 'arty an! 8oosevelt -elieve! that there shoul! -e a lot

of things in the 3air a-or %tan!ar!s $t, in$lu!ing minimum wage an! forty hours a wee#.

Pretty mu$h as an afterthought they threw in the $hil! la-or law again -e$ause they thought it

woul! 'ass, an! it !i!.

Genova Brown: n! the last +uestion is: How !oes ewis Hine show lea!ershi' in his a''roa$hto $hil! la-or reform?

Joe Manning: &ell I thin# the #in! of wor# he !i! ma!e him naturally a lea!er. He was a$tually a

very shy, +uiet 'erson who !i!n’t really li#e to -e mu$h in 'u-li$. He was un$omforta-le

s'ea#ing -efore large $row!s, he was very stu!ious, he staye! at home, when he wasn’t wor#ing,

as mu$h as he $oul! -e$ause he was away a lot of the time ta#ing 'i$tures. By using his e am'le,

the #in! of wor# he was !oing, in -eing very very 'ersistent a-out $hanging $hil! la-or laws an!

$aring very mu$h a-out it, he was a lea!er in the sense of 'eo'le wanting to $o'y what he was

!oing an! a!miring his wor#. He !i!n’t go out in the streets an!, you #now, mar$h in the street

yelling a-out $hil! la-or, he ust wor#e! +uietly to e 'ose it an! he was a true lea!er for that

reason.

Genova Brown: "#ay, than# you very mu$h.

Joe Manning: &ell goo! lu$#.

Genova Brown: han# you, goo!-ye.

Joe Manning: Goo!-ye.

joe manning interview

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