joint review panel for the enbridge northern …iaac-aeic.gc.ca/050/documents/p21799/81655e.pdfto...

JOINT REVIEW PANEL FOR THE ENBRIDGE NORTHERN

GATEWAY PROJECT

COMMISSION D’EXAMEN CONJOINT DU PROJET

ENBRIDGE NORTHERN GATEWAY

Hearing Order OH-4-2011

Ordonnance d’audience OH-4-2011

Northern Gateway Pipelines Inc.

Enbridge Northern Gateway Project

Application of 27 May 2010

Demande de Northern Gateway Pipelines Inc.

du 27 mai 2010 relative au projet

Enbridge Northern Gateway

VOLUME 9

Hearing held at

Audience tenue à

Haisla Recreation Centre

1538 Jassee

Kitamaat Village, British Columbia

January 11, 2012

Le 11 janvier 2012

International Reporting Inc.

Ottawa, Ontario

(613) 748-6043

(A38252)

© Her Majesty the Queen in Right of Canada 2012

as represented by the Minister of the Environment

and the National Energy Board

© Sa Majesté du Chef du Canada 2012

représentée par le Ministre de l’Environnement et

l’Office national de l’énergie

This publication is the recorded verbatim transcript

and, as such, is taped and transcribed in either of the

official languages, depending on the languages

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Cette publication est un compte rendu textuel des

délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée et

transcrite dans l’une ou l’autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l’audience publique.

Printed in Canada Imprimé au Canada

(A38252)

Transcript Hearing Order OH-4-2011

HEARING /AUDIENCE

OH-4-2011

IN THE MATTER OF an application filed by the Northern Gateway Pipelines

Limited Partnership for a Certificate of Public Convenience and Necessity

pursuant to section 52 of the National Energy Board Act, for authorization

to construct and operate the Enbridge Northern Gateway Project.

HEARING LOCATION/LIEU DE L'AUDIENCE

Hearing held in Kitamaat Village (British Columbia), Wednesday, January 11, 2012

Audience tenue à Kitamaat Village (Colombie-Britannique), Mercredi, le 11 janvier 2012

JOINT REVIEW PANEL/LA COMMISSION D’EXAMEN CONJOINT

S. Leggett Chairperson/Présidente

K. Bateman Member/Membre

H. Matthews Member/Membre

(A38252)


ORAL PRESENTATIONS/REPRÉSENTATIONS ORALES

Mr. Peter G. King

Douglas Channel Watch

- Mr. Murray Minchin

- Mr. Dieter Wagner

- Mr. Dave Shannon

- Ms. Margaret Ouwehand

- Ms. Cheryl Brown

Métis Nation of BC

- Mr. Gary Ducommun

Kitimat Valley Naturalists

- Mr. Walter Thorne

- Mr. Dennis Horwood

- Ms. April MacLeod

Mr. Randy Halyk

(A38252)


TABLE OF CONTENTS/TABLE DES MATIÈRES

(i)

Description Paragraph No./No. de paragraphe

Opening remarks by the Chairperson 4370

Oral presentation by Mr. Peter G. King 4387

Douglas Channel Watch

Mr. Murray Minchin

Mr. Dieter Wagner

Mr. Dave Shannon

Ms. Margaret Ouwehand

Ms. Cheryl Brown

- Oral presentation by Mr. Murray Minchin 4433

- Oral presentation by Mr. Dieter Wagner 4540

- Oral presentation by Mr. Dave Shannon 4661

- Oral presentation by Ms. Margaret Ouwehand 4740

- Oral presentation by Ms. Cheryl Brown 4764

Métis Nation of BC

Mr. Gary Ducommun

- Oral presentation by Mr. Gary Ducommun 4817

Kitimat Valley Naturalists

Mr. Walter Thorne

Mr. Dennis Horwood

Ms. April MacLeod

- Oral presentation by Mr. Walter Thorne, Mr. Dennis Horwood

and Ms. April MacLeod 4866

Oral presentation by Mr. Randy Halyk 4916

(A38252)


LIST OF EXHIBITS/LISTE DES PIÈCES

(i)

No. Description Paragraph No./No. de paragraphe

Visual Aid No. 1 Black and white images submitted by

Mr. Murray Minchin 4453

Visual Aid No. 2 Presentation slides provided by Mr. Dave Shannon 4737

Visual Aid No. 3 PowerPoint presentation provided by the

Kitimat Valley Naturalists 4864

(A38252)

Opening remarks

Chairperson


--- Upon commencing at 9:03 a.m./L’audience débute à 9h03

4370. THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everyone and welcome back this

morning to the second day of our community hearings being held here in Kitamaat

Village.

4371. My name is Sheila Leggett and I am the Panel Chair of this Joint Review

Panel. On my right is Mr. Kenneth Bateman, and on my left is Hans Matthews.

4372. Today we're going to be moving along on the list of speakers for the oral

evidence that was at the back of the room yesterday and we'll begin with Mr. King.

4373. Secretariat staff have spoken to all of the intervenors who will be

presenting oral evidence today about the order that they’ll be presenting this evidence

and how long they’re scheduled to make their presentation. This order was

established based on all this input and this will be the -- both the order and the

timelines that we’ll be following.

4374. So I’ll call each of the parties to provide their oral evidence based on that

list, and we -- again, because of the reasons that we talked about yesterday in terms of

making sure that everybody who’s registered has the opportunity to present their

evidence within the timeframe, I’d ask everybody to keep to the timelines that have

been agreed to with the Secretariat staff.

4375. Again today, Panel Members may have questions of clarification just to

make sure that we understand your evidence. There won’t be any other questions

from any other parties today and any questions on your oral evidence from the other

parties would be asked at the final hearings that begin in the fall.

4376. Again, I'd just remind people that -- who are providing oral evidence that

there’s no need to repeat any of the information that you’ve already filed in writing

and that oral evidence is intended to allow parties to relay information to the Panel

firsthand that can’t be expressed in writing.

4377. And an example that the Panel has used throughout its written publications

and that sort of thing is such as oral traditional knowledge. That would be the type of

thing that would be considered as oral evidence and that we’re anxious to hear from

you on.

(A38252)

Oral presentation

Mr. Peter King


4378. So when you’re called, if you could just come up to the table here and

we’ll go through the process of swearing or affirming you and then we’ll sit and listen

carefully to what you want to tell us.

4379. So with that I’d suggest that we get under way and would ask if Mr. King

is here.

4380. Mr. King, sit wherever you’re comfortable.

4381. Good morning. Take your time to just get yourself settled in, and

welcome. Are you ready to be sworn or affirmed at this point?

4382. MR. KING: I am.

4383. THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, terrific. Thank you.

4384. Ms. Niro?

PETER G. KING: Affirmed

4385. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms. Niro.

4386. Mr. King, please proceed. Thank you.

--- ORAL PRESENTATION BY/REPRÉSENTATION ORALE PAR MR. PETER

KING:

4387. MR. KING: I’ve been a resident of Kitimat for 53 years and the issues,

as I see them, are economic diversity and challenges. One of the problems we face is

urbanization. We end up with whole populations centred in large areas. This may

work fine when things are going well, but it doesn’t work fine when things break

down. How well ---

4388. THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. King, sorry. I’m not trying to interrupt you

for anything other than can I ask you to just slow down a little bit.

4389. MR. KING: Sure.

4390. THE CHAIRPERSON: Take your time just so that we can make sure

that we understand what you’re saying.

(A38252)

Oral presentation

Mr. Peter King


4391. MR. KING: Sure.

4392. THE CHAIRPERSON: And I’m not sure; are you being able to capture

this for the transcripts? Yes, okay. I was just -- maybe it’s just me. I was just having

a little bit of trouble keeping up with you. Thank you.

4393. MR. KING: Concerned about the 15-minute time.

4394. THE CHAIRPERSON: I agree. I know. It’s all a balance, isn’t it?

4395. Thank you.

4396. MR. KING: But how well does it work? In the Vancouver area, people

live in Delta and work in North Vancouver or go to university in UBC and live in

Abbotsford. This would involve a two-hour commute both ways, totalling four hours

in travel.

4397. Then there’s the cost of travel to and from work, counting vehicles, fuel,

parking and all extras that go along with it. The commute can cost $40 a day, on

average. Of course, this is -- there is mass transit, but the problem with mass transit is

it sets up in the most economical way for obvious reasons.

4398. But by doing this, it adds an hour to the commute on either end, so now

the commute is three hours each way, so there is a trade-off, but it’s equal in the end.

4399. For both people to work with and the same amount of cash out of pocket,

the person who drives to work ends up having to work two hours a day more to pay

for the commute but by the time -- the way home would work out to be the same.

4400. Of course, you could live closer to work, but that involves the same

financial trade-off; if you live near your work, your residence will cost more. If you

work close to where you live, your job may not pay as well.

4401. Social diversity. Let’s pick up where the home/work example left off. If

you live in a small area, without trying, a person’s quality of life increases by adding

three hours to their home or leisure time. Since everyone lives within 15-minute

drive to work or 30-minute bus ride away, no parking.

4402. Crime is a major social problem in large centralized areas. If there is a

(A38252)

Oral presentation

Mr. Peter King


crime in Vancouver, there’s thousands of possible suspects over hundreds of square

miles and it could take weeks and months to solve the crime. In a small area, you

have three possible suspects; one was in the hospital, one was at work, leaving you

with one suspect; crime takes eight hours to solve in small areas.

4403. Violence, for instance, if you see a fight in the street in Vancouver area,

you do not know either person, so you’re isolated from it. In small areas, there’s a

good chance you know both parties; this gives you a greater need to get involved and

help solve the issue.

4404. Children. When you go to Vancouver, you seldom see children playing in

the street. For one, traffic is so much higher, but making friendship bonds is a

problem as well. In small areas, children on the street will go to the same school,

play on the same hockey team, shop at the same grocery store, go to the same church.

The odds of this happening in a large area is very remote.

4405. Thirty (30) minutes after -- environmental diversity and challenges.

Thirty (30) minutes after leaving the Vancouver Airport Terminal, your sinuses plug

up. The reason is the concentration of car, truck and industrial pollution in the air.

Nature has the ability to clean itself if the concentration levels are not too high, but in

large centres we always suffer from bad air quality and water quality from what we

have seen earlier with many commuters, most of which is with engines idling.

4406. If I went to a local river and put a teaspoon of oil in a rural river, it would

not be noticed by anyone, not by the river, not by the wildlife, but in a large centre

you could have the equivalent of one million teaspoons of oil put in river waterways

just from the storm sewers.

4407. The concentration of human, chemical waste in the septic sewer systems

going into the waterways in Vancouver is evidenced from these problems.

4408. This is why there’s the discussions of dead zones at the mouths of

waterways of large populated areas in the world. A horse can carry 10 tonnes on its

back as long as it’s done in small amounts over long periods of time. If you put a

whole 10 tonnes on a horse’s back at one time, you would kill it, and you don't have

to be a scientist to understand why.

4409. If you're sitting down and drink four litres of bleach, you would die, but if

you diluted it one-part-per-million in water and then drank it over a lifetime, you

could drink four litres of bleach and there would be no effects on your body at all

(A38252)

Oral presentation

Mr. Peter King


because you'd probably have -- you've not overwhelmed your body. It may have

benefits by preventing harmful bacteria’s from increasing in the water.

4410. Chances of a spill. The busiest waterway in the world is the Suez Canal.

There were 7,987 ships of all descriptions passing through it in 2010; that is 22 ships

a day. The channel is 24 metres deep and 205 metres wide in 2010. The channel is a

single lane and passes at -- I hope I pronounce it -- Ballah bypass, and in the greater

Bitter Lake contains no locks and seawater flows privy through the channel.

4411. Some supertankers are too large to traverse the channel. Others can

offload part of their cargo into channel boats, reducing their draft, then transit to

reload at the other end of the channel.

4412. The Douglas Channel is 1,400 metres wide at its narrowest part. That is

seven times wider than the Suez Canal. The Douglas Channel is also 200 metres

deep, that is eight times deeper than the Suez Canal.

4413. Piracy off the Coast of Somalia has been a threat in the Suez Canal since

the 21st century. Piracy is not a problem in the Douglas Channel.

4414. War zones. The Suez Canal was a target in World War I, World War II,

and a few regional wars, and probably is a target in the near future. Being in a war

zone is not a problem for the Douglas Channel.

4415. Global diversity. My family and I are very blessed. We are healthy,

wealthy and happy. Do I, as a person, have the right to deny other people in the

world the same dreams and blessing? If this permit is denied, people in other areas of

the world will have to pay more for energy for different reasons. We see the tsunami,

earthquakes putting pressure on Japan and its nuclear power program.

4416. If it is denied, I will be able to pay less for our energy. Globally, is this

fair?

4417. If I have all the food and I refuse to sell it to 100 starving people, should I

be surprised when they take it from me for force? Should I have the ability to stop

other people in the world from getting energy? No. But I have the ability to control

how the energy is used in an economic, social, environmentally responsible way.

4418. In conclusion, I would like to encourage the approval of the export licence

at Kitimat for economic, social, environmental diversification locally and worldwide.

(A38252)

Oral presentation

Mr. Peter King


4419. Thank you.

4420. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. King.

4421. Mr. Matthews, any questions of clarification?

4422. MEMBER MATTHEWS: No, no points.

4423. MEMBER BATEMAN: No questions, thank you.

4424. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. King.

4425. I understand we have a panel from Douglas Channel Watch, if you could

come forward.

--- (A short pause/Courte pause)

4426. THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, everyone.

4427. Are you going to speak individually, or do you have a spokesperson for

the panel? One at a time, okay. So let's go ahead with the swearing or affirming.

4428. Thank you very much.

MURRAY MINCHIN: Affirmed

DIETER WAGNER: Affirmed

DAVE SHANNON: Sworn

MARGARET OUWEHAND: Affirmed

CHERYL BROWN: Affirmed

4429. THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome to all of you.

4430. I understand that you're going to be about three hours in timing. We'd like

to take a break somewhere mid-morning and it may be best for you to sort of tell us

when it would be a convenient time to break. If it goes on a little long, I might

suggest a break, but I'll leave it to you to manage from the beginning aspect of it.

4431. So Mr. Minchin, we're going to start with you; is that correct?

(A38252)

Douglas Channel Watch - Oral presentation

Mr. Murray Minchin



--- ORAL PRESENTATION BY/REPRÉSENTATION ORALE PAR MR.

MURRAY MINCHIN:

4433. MR. MINCHIN: Well, here we are. I want to thank you for coming. I'd

like to thank the Haisla for their hospitality, both today and yesterday, particularly,

and I would like to thank the Haisla representatives who spoke yesterday so

eloquently about their love for this land and what it means to them.

4434. I'd also like to thank the Douglas Channel Watch members who have -- all

of us have worked together in concert to generate the written material and research

and shared information.

4435. Also, Friends of Wild Salmon were particularly helpful to us and other

individuals, actually, who have taken time out of their busy lives to devote to

researching this project. It's been a -- there's been a lot of time taken away from my

family, and a lot of other families, because of this proposal and trying to find out the

details of it that aren't necessarily made available to us. So I'd like to thank them as

well.

4436. I'd like to thank you, the Panel Members for being here, because I know

it's a big portion out of your lives as well, so it's an immense responsibility that you

bear, and so I recognize that and thank you for taking that on.

4437. I'd also like to say hi to maybe Mrs. Barbosa's Grade 5 Nechako class who

might be listening right now because my daughter's here to witness this event, but her

class possibly might be listening in, so I'd like to say hi to them as well.

4438. Yes. We are the radical environmentalists.

--- (Applause/Applaudissements)

4439. MR. MINCHIN: And you know, as such, we believe that there should

maybe be a balanced playing field in this event or through this process, so we are --

we will be taking $100 million offers from foreign interests to make this a balanced

playing field from the monies that the Proponent had available to them to initiate this

proposal, so just putting that out there.

(A38252)


Mr. Murray Minchin


4440. THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Minchin, we're here to hear oral evidence,

if you could confine your remarks to that.

4441. Thank you.

4442. MR. MINCHIN: Okay.

4443. Like Ellis Ross, yesterday, said that -- something that was quite profound

in that his oral evidence is his life. You know, it's not necessarily the -- from times

gone by. His life now and his experience will be the oral evidence that he carries

with him and shares with his children and, as such, I would like to share some of the

things that have happened in my life.

4444. Also, as part of this process, I was under the impression that for part of the

oral evidence, if we had reference material for it, what we needed to do was to submit

it to Louise and -- Louise Niro and Margaret McQuiston, and so I did that but it

wasn’t available on the web for the Proponent to see.

4445. Now, both the images that I would like to show today are images from the

coast that I’ve taken -- black and white images. They aren’t the ones that were

submitted as written evidence so these are completely, absolutely different than those

and have nothing to do at all with that portion of the written evidence that I’ve

already submitted.

4446. Now, so I would like to ask the Panel’s permission since those -- these

images where in before the deadline and where shared with Louise and Margaret,

who I asked to forward it on to you and the Proponent, if I might be able to use those

images here today to speak to as part of the oral evidence?

4447. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Minchin.

4448. Mr. Neufeld, recognizing that your client will have an opportunity to

address any issues with this evidence through the final hearings, do you have any

objection to this exhibit or otherwise see any prejudice that would result from

allowing it on the record at this time?

4449. Thank you.

4450. Is there anyone else who objects?

(A38252)


Mr. Murray Minchin


4451. The Panel accepts the images that you’re going to show.

4452. Now, can I just be clear on the aspect of -- we don’t have them on the

registry at this point; so is the best approach to mark them as a visual exhibit?

4453. THE REGULATORY OFFICER: That’s right. It would be the best if I

could call it Visual Aid Number 1.

--- VISUAL AID NO. 1:

Black and white images submitted by Mr. Murray Minchin

4454. THE CHAIRPERSON: Terrific. Okay, thanks very much. Please

proceed.

4455. MR. MINCHIN: Okay, thank you. And thank you to the Proponent for

allowing me to show these images.

4456. The format that they were sent, to Louise and Margaret, I believe is of

sufficient quality to be transferred straight onto the registry, so that could be done

today, if you wish.

4457. Well, I’ve been here since I was about four years old. I’m 52-ish now so

I’ve been here for 48 years. I’ve left for school, went to college. I would go

travelling and then -- but I always came back. Like the power of this place always

drew me back.

4458. I’ve hiked almost every mountain in the region and I’ve hiked the rivers

and particularly the little tiny side creeks that run down the mountain sides here. And

as you drive in there’s a little tiny creek like a -- that runs into the marina at Minette

Bay.

4459. So if you’re ever back, there’s a hint to you, there’s about 12 waterfalls on

that little tiny inconsequential creek that nobody ever even thinks about. I suggest

you take a walk up there because it’s incredibly beautiful. This area is loaded with

places like that, that are singularly beautiful on a really small scale when you step

back from the whole and you go into these little tiny spots. They’re just amazing.

4460. I’ve sea kayaked quite a bit and my wife and I spent six months sea

kayaking down the whole coast of British Columbia and we did two months in the

(A38252)


Mr. Murray Minchin


winter, two months in the spring and fall and two months in the summer. So we did

six months over the whole year.

4461. And it takes about two weeks when you’re out there for just the mess --

the extra stuff in your head from our society and our way of life to just kind of drop

away, and after about three weeks then you begin to open your eyes and you begin to

feel comfortable in a place. Like you become essentially really comfortable in the

environment.

4462. And it was so much so that like when we got to Port Hardy we booked a

motel room and walked in the motel room and we sat down on the floor and we

started going through our gear and started talking.

4463. It took about 15 minutes before we realized that there were chairs in the

room and we could sit on them. Like we were just so in tune with being out in the

bush and -- like that really changes your perception of the world. You know, like you

become a little more aware.

4464. Now, like for me, when I walk into the forest here it’s like an embrace.

There’s -- it’s a palpable feeling to me that I feel completely embraced and at home in

this environment.

4465. Like we have extreme weather. It’s a crazy -- well, you guys are really

lucky with the weather that you’ve had here. It can be gnarly and fast. It can really

get crazy.

4466. And, you know, through those experiences I’ve had a few times when my

insignificance has been shown to me. One example would be in the headwaters of the

small Wedeene we crossed over -- one of my friends climbed this mount hold -- not

the mount hold that the tunnel portal is going to be on, it’s spelled differently. It’s at

the head waters of the Little Wedeene and I had a hurt leg.

4467. So they climbed the peak and I dropped over in the Mount Madden or into

the Skeena watershed into a cirque that was surrounded by waterfalls dropping into it.

So I couldn’t hear anything but the waterfalls, and as I came around the lake I heard

the sound of a grizzly bear just screaming his head off and I couldn’t tell where it was

coming from because the sound was echoing off the rock walls.

4468. You know, I had to hunker down under trees and then just stop and think,

okay, like take it easy, don’t do anything too fast, take your time, make the right

(A38252)


Mr. Murray Minchin


choice. Experiences like that sort of show you that you -- our place in the

environment isn’t as strong as we think we -- as it is. Like the environment has a lot

more drastic effect on us than we realize.

4469. Oh, and it was a couple of decades later I was listening to the CBC radio

and I heard that sound again, and evidently it was older mature cubs fighting over a

kill, cause I recognized that sound right away. But when I was out there I didn’t

know, I thought it was directed towards me, possibly.

4470. Like getting back to the oral evidence, my daughter was three when I

began -- two or three years old when I began taking her into the forest. And just past

here there’s the marina, and then if you take a trail past the marina, there’s a totem

pole in the forest, and you take a walk past the totem pole, you follow this trail that

goes along the shoreline. So she was on my hip and we were walking through the

forest.

4471. I walked off to the side and I picked a red huckleberry off the bush and

then gave it to her, and she popped it in her mouth and then, like her eyes lit up and

she started jumping, you know, because she started pointing and now I had to walk

through the forest to every red huckleberry bush so that she could get a taste of the

red huckleberries. This is part of -- now that’s part of her life and that will be part of

her oral history.

4472. And on part of that trip we had a couple experiences, like, part of -- on our

kayak trip we had some experiences where the -- just trying to figure a way to frame

this -- like yesterday at Haisla we were saying that in particular with the whales, like

they’re here but in the past there was a great number of them, you know.

4473. And on our kayak trip after leaving Bishop Bay we came out on to three

sleeping humpback whales, which was an amazing experience for us. But as I

understand now, in the past, there would have been a lot more. And I’m really -- fills

me with hope to hear that they’re coming back. And it’s some disconcerting to think

that that could be jeopardized in any way.

4474. I guess we should just launch off into maybe the photographs, which I

apologize for the quality of, because my computer isn’t communicating so well with

the projector and so the images are going to be harsh. So I apologize in advance.

4475. This is Kanoona Falls. It’s just above Butedale that they were speaking of

in the -- yesterday in the Haisla’s evidence. And like here water is everything. I

(A38252)


Mr. Murray Minchin


mean with this river -- like we got stuck there for four days in big storms near

hurricane force storms and it was raining really hard. This river was in flood; it was

up into the trees on either bank and it was running completely pure, like there was no

sediment in it. There was no -- it wasn’t muddy. It was just a pure river running

wild. And this is what the Kitimat River must have looked like in the past, you know,

running pure in flood and no sediment.

4476. And actually there’s so much rain here that in mid-channel -- like a

channel could be two or three miles wide and there’s so much rain coming off the

mountains and, you know, through the rivers and streams into the ocean that the

seagulls take freshwater baths at mid-channel and it makes me wonder, scientists

being who they are, engineering being who they are, the Proponent trusting their

advice, has made estimations on spill response and stuff with materials and saltwater.

4477. Well, in the winter here you’d have to go down a foot, probably, before

you find saltwater and in fact we had the sea kayak 140 kilometres south from

Kitimat before salted to encrust on our decks. Like that’s amazing; that’s how much

freshwater is out there.

4478. So any of the Proponent’s estimations on spill response times in saltwater,

which is denser of course, should be looked at or refigured because saltwater being

denser would hold the product underneath the level of the freshwater on top, that’s

what I’m trying to get -- that’s what I’m trying to get at.

4479. And this is the marina here in Kitimat and you’ll notice that there’s no

pleasure boats there. I mean every vessel there is for them to get out and get

sustenance from the water, like there’s no gas guzzler there, cabin cruiser where --

they’re going to cruise up and down the coast looking out the window at the scenery,

I mean, like these are all working boats to get food for their families.

4480. Again, I apologize, you’re missing so much -- so many mid-tones in here

it’s crazy, it’s very -- as a photographer it is very frustrating to look at these but -- like

a lot of people would look at this scene and they would think to themselves, well, you

know, that’s a nice place; somebody else might look at it and say, well, you know, I

can get so many board feet out of that tree there in the middle.

4481. And for the people, like the Haisla people, they look at that and they say,

well, the bark’s been taken off. I mean a portion of that tree, like it’s probably --

might have been in the headdresses of the people that were sitting here before you

yesterday.

(A38252)


Mr. Murray Minchin


4482. I mean -- and judging by the growth rings and where this is located they

might even be able to suggest who might have taken the bark or who’ve made stuff

from it. Point being that it -- this environment -- they are part of the environment.

4483. And here it rains like crazy, just suggested by the moss that you can barely

see in the contrasting photograph but the forest here filters the rain so that it enters

into the rivers and the rivers run clean and the salmon and the eulachon spawn in the

clean river which brings the bears; the bears carry the fish into the forest, don’t eat all

of the fish and then it feeds the forest when then filters the rains for the next -- for the

next salmon coming up.

4484. And like the panel may not understand how important eulachon are here. I

went to art school with Fred Wilson who’s from the village here and the first time I

went to his mom’s, Ida Wilson’s house for supper I love the eulachon that she cooked

and she laughed and she told me, you know, don’t eat too many of those you’re going

to fall asleep and I laughed and I kept eating them.

4485. About half an hour after dinner I was asleep on her chesterfield. It’s a

very, very rich food source and really valuable. So this is why it was stressed to you

yesterday how important the eulachon are, it’s historically and culturally, it’s a really,

really important thing. And to have them just shuddering on the edge, the eulachon

shuddering on the edge is palpably shocking to me.

4486. This is just another example of the forest that we have here that’s adjacent

to the rivers, this is the way it should be and the way the system wants to be.

4487. And this is an example of a place that isn’t anymore. I have -- I call them

my forensic nature photographs now, for a better -- for lack of a better term. It’s

places where I’ve been to photograph that are now clear-cuts that -- dumping

sediment in the river, just adding more cumulative damage to this river that’s being

stressed enough. So I’ve got quite a few of these in my collection.

4488. And it snows like crazy here, like I said, you guys are really lucky that you

dodged one by coming here when you did. Like four-foot snowfalls are an amazing

thing to you. You know, it’s not a snowfall it’s a force of nature.

4489. If you catch a snowflake on your tongue, one of those snowflakes on your

tongue you wait for it to melt, it doesn’t and you have to chew it; like they’re twice

the size of a toonie, you know, and a quarter inch thick. It’s hard to imagine but it’s a

(A38252)


Mr. Murray Minchin


force of nature when it’s snowing like that which brings concerns about access issues,

obviously.

4490. Access issues, just daily access issues anywhere, particularly on to logging

roads or access roads into the wilderness, there are going to be of a great concern and

even more so in emergencies when equipment and materials have to be moved

anywhere.

4491. And another problem we have here in thinking about liquid petroleum

product moving through this territory is the length of out winters. The average night

time low here can be -- is below freezing for five months of the year and for another

one of those months it’s just one degree above freezing; so things can lock up and be

under ice for months at a time.

4492. So if there is any potential -- or if there is any slow leak -- for lack of a

better term -- which we haven’t been able to iron out through the information request

process, you know, a spill could go for weeks without being recognized, even if the

weather is good enough to get a helicopter up to fly over the area. Things could be

under the ice and invisible until it gets to Kitimat and somebody notices that there is a

spill happening.

4493. And this is a sapling that just grew -- is growing in an estuary and it tried,

I mean it tried everything it had, it had branches ripped off, the prevailing winds and

it struggled but eventually it just got pushed over and died because it was in the

wrong place, which I think much like this proposal and this attempt to get tar sands,

bitumen from Alberta to Asia and California is -- it’s just in the wrong place.

4494. So this, to me, is this proposal, it’s just -- this is in the wrong place and

this is just the first such proposal that’s reached this level of inquiry or to reach the

Joint Review Panel stage, it doesn’t necessarily make it the right one and that’s really

important, especially considering how much -- how many forces they’re being

applied to use. Well, to buy different entities to approve this project.

4495. It’s really important to remain cognisant of the fact that this is just the first

one; it doesn’t make it the right one.

4496. And getting back to the environmental aspect of this; this is a nurse log.

You can’t see it because of the contrast of the projector. But it’s a nurse log with

little tiny seedlings of more hemlock trying to grow through it. The fungus is

breaking down the log. And this natural system, if it’s allowed to play out, will

(A38252)


Mr. Murray Minchin


recover.

4497. If we give this place a chance to recover, it will; the cumulative effects of

all the industry that’s been in here and the damage it’s done over time.

4498. And it’s shocking to think in 60 years you can kill a river, basically. And

that’s what’s happened here. We’ve almost done it. Like the salmon are hanging on

because of the hatchery. The eulachon are almost gone.

4499. If we give it a chance, it can recover. The humpback whales are coming

back this far into the channel. Like we saw one in front of the -- I don’t know if

you’ve eaten at that -- the restaurant here, but last year we were here and there was

one feeding right outside on the beach, just off -- about 100 feet off the beach.

4500. So if we give it a chance, it will recover. And to threaten that in any way is

-- morally, for me, it’s just wrong. To risk so much for so little short term gain is not

part of my mindset. I can’t comprehend that.

4501. And even like this spruce on Haida Gwaii; it’s on the Hecate Strait side of

Haida Gwaii. You know, it’s in from the beach a little bit but, you know, with the

120 kilometre an hour, 100-whatever an hour kilometre an hour with northerly

outflow winds we have around here, even a place like this would get spray from

bitumen that’s coming in at high tide.

4502. And this is a tree that’s just barely hanging on, on Cape George. It’s on

the southern end of Porcher Island with Hecate Strait in the background. And it’s just

an example of what things have to do here when -- to try and survive when the

environment is so severe.

4503. And as we paddled up into here on our sea kayaking trip, we came in at

high tide and we were looking up at the rocks and then back into the distance and

there was still nothing growing. It was just incredible to think.

4504. So after we set up camp, I came around here and then took this photograph

because where the water is, is high tide and beach logs are normally pushed up down

the line along the shoreline, you know, nice and neatly tucked against the forest by

the high tides.

4505. And these are just scattered all over the rocks, and that’s because the

waves there are so big in the wintertime when the southeast storms come in that, I

(A38252)


Mr. Murray Minchin


mean, like there’s nothing living for 10 feet up and, I don’t know, 70, 80 feet back

because of the continual, every year storms coming in and pushing these logs and

rolling them around.

4506. Like if this -- like if -- like given a chance, a tree -- huckleberries, beach

grasses, hemlock trees, anything will -- if there’s any available space for something to

grow, it’s going to grow. So this just speaks to the fact that the storms here are so

continual and so severe that it’s a recipe for disaster.

4507. I mean, like you get waves crashing in on -- so high onto a ship that the

spray is getting down into the air ducts and down into the mechanics of the ship and

then you’re adrift.

4508. It’s a different -- like after you -- from travelling east, once you come into

the Skeena Valley and you cross over that coast Range Mountains, everything is

different. All your precepts from Alberta, Saskatchewan, Ontario, they’re -- they

don’t matter here. I mean, it’s a really severe environmental -- like there are severe

environmental risks here beyond anything else in Canada.

4509. I mean, the mountains are so young. The seismicity of the area is -- the

seismicity of the area is questionable because there hasn’t been that much

accumulated evidence over time. So it’s just something to be aware of.

4510. MEMBER MATTHEWS: Sorry; I just want to interrupt for a second.

4511. MR. MINCHIN: Yes.

4512. MEMBER MATTHEWS: Can you repeat the precise location of that --

for that photo?

4513. MR. MINCHIN: Oh, for this place right here?

4514. MEMBER MATTHEWS: Yeah.

4515. MR. MINCHIN: It’s a place called Cape George on Porcher Island,

which is just above Kitkatla.

4516. And that there is Cape George, and that -- as you can see, this is just a

storm that happened to miss us, but we were stormbound there for about four days

and -- but this is just one that happened to go by and so I managed to get a picture of

(A38252)


Mr. Murray Minchin


it.

4517. And this is another shockingly contrasting photograph -- sorry; there’s a

lot more to it in the original. But it sort of symbolizes each of you, as Panel

Members, what -- where you are in all of this. I mean, like you are like that young

hemlock because ultimately, eventually, each of you is going to have to make the

choice, with the evidence that you’ve been given, to how -- if you’re going to approve

this project or not.

4518. So like I really -- so I ask of you that you really consider that

responsibility. You know, obviously you do, but it’s important for us to know that

you, that you take that responsibility really seriously because like the -- in the Federal

Environmental Assessment Review Office Reference Guide, as a guide to

determining whether a project is likely to cause a significant environmental effect or

not, it’s quoted as saying:

“The Act is clear that the project may be allowed to proceed if any

likely significant adverse environmental effects can be justified in

the circumstances.”

4519. So what possible circumstances are there to risk such a place and to risk so

many First Nations cultures?

4520. THE CHAIRPERSON: Again, Mr. Minchin, we’re here to hear your

oral evidence, for you to share your knowledge, which ---


4522. THE CHAIRPERSON: --- is very helpful, and your views on the

impacts of the proposed project.

4523. MR. MINCHIN: M’hm.

4524. THE CHAIRPERSON: Later on in the final argument stage will be your

opportunity to provide the Panel with your views about what you think the decision is

the Panel should make.

4525. MR. MINCHIN: Yes, sure.

(A38252)


Mr. Murray Minchin


4526. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.


4528. So what I was saying was if you give nature a chance to heal, it will heal

itself, and that’s what’s happening here and that’s what the Haisla elders were telling

us yesterday, that this place wants to heal itself and it can if we give it a chance.

4529. You know, to add more risk to the cumulative damage that’s already been

done here, I think, would be essentially a crime. It should be given a chance to heal.

4530. And another thing that Mr. Ellis Ross said yesterday was, you know, much

like he’s making his own history, his oral history today and in his life, like you are as

Panel Members making your own history as well and your ancestors are going to

speak of what decision you made and the consequences of that decision.

4531. So we’re all living oral history right at this moment in time. And so to be

cognizant of that would be -- I’d really, really appreciate that.

4532. And that’s about all I have. Thank you very much for entertaining me.

--- (Applause/Applaudisements)

4533. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Minchin.

4534. Any questions?

4535. MEMBER MATTHEWS: No questions, thanks.

4536. MEMBER BATEMAN: I have no questions, thank you.

4537. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

4538. And so would you like to continue on at this point and then maybe

consider taking a break after the next presentation? Does that make sense for the

panel and its dynamics and how it’s running?

4539. Okay. So Mr. Wagner.

(A38252)


Mr. Dieter Wagner


--- ORAL PRESENTATION BY/REPRÉSENTATION ORALE PAR MR. DIETER

WAGNER:

4540. MR. WAGNER: Good morning, Members of the Panel. Thank you for

the opportunity to make a presentation here, but I also would like to thank the Haisla

for welcoming us on their territory and making this all possible here.

4541. Who am I? I was born and raised in Germany and went to a prominent

boys' school, became a millwright, was sent to welding school and I actually welded

pipes and large vessels by various methods. So I know about steel and welding and

all of that.

4542. I came to Canada in 1961, became an applied science technologist,

worked as a designer, project manager, best of all, a respected trouble shooter, which

was never an official title.

4543. My wife and I, we owned sailboats for 35 years. We raised three children,

most of the time had them all with us on the boat, every weekend and every summer

holiday, and we sailed from down Sydney, Vancouver to Haida Gwaii; so we know

these waters intimately.

4544. I would like -- first of all, I would like to address route safety first, and I

brought Volume 1 from the TERMPOL study on which everything is based with me.

So if anybody wanted to look at it or question anything, it's there.

4545. Now, route safety. The Suez Canal was brought up this morning already

again. The Suez Canal, does it have steep granite banks? Does it have three 90-

degree plus turns? Does it have 24 tides with the corresponding tidal currents?

4546. The Norwegians, I believe, and Danes were involved in doing tanker

stimulation studies, and they were extremely astounded by the extreme tides that we

have here in Kitimat. They would go over 20 feet in the spring tides. In Prince

Rupert, they go even higher. They have 25-foot tides.

4547. And the -- when the tides change, the currents change also with fresh

water. You can have fresh water flowing out while you have salt water flowing in

underneath, and these tankers, they draw 70 feet of water, so everything is affected.

4548. And I tried to shorten my presentation a little bit from what I originally

had in mind.

(A38252)


Mr. Dieter Wagner


4549. So Book 1 of 3, the volume is there, states that the route from the pilot

station at Treble Island to Kitimat is 360 nautical miles, or 300 kilometres. And Ms.

Niro was so good to project all. There is the first one, Figure 2.3.

4550. You can look; everything looks pretty wide open. And -- but when you

are -- oh, there we are. See, technology and I; I don't know. I used to be a

technologist, but…

4551. There is Treble Island, and that's where the pilots are taken on board or

dropped off, and you can see they are already in relatively dangerous waters. By the

way, also, the -- it shows much better later on. The ocean is not colour coded like

here where it shows you where the shallow waters are.

4552. And if you could go to Figure No. 2-22, you can see by the black -- the

black lines showing here limit the channel in which the ships are to travel. And at

this point here, it's about 1.4 kilometres wide, as was pointed out by Mr. King earlier

today.

4553. Again, the water -- these lines, which are like curbs on the street, they are

not there on the water. When you are out there, everything looks wide open. You see

nothing but open water, and it is open to the huge waves, it is open to the winds. And

nothing is colour coded in the water, either. You think you are in wide-open ocean;

you are not. Therefore, this makes things very dangerous.

4554. And you can see on the bottom left the water is coloured green, from 20 to

50 fathoms deep. And in this whole region in the summer time is full of crab traps

and, at times, they take about 5,000 pounds of crab out of there.

4555. Now, let's see. Yeah, no black lines, no coloured water. Oh, yeah. And

now I have to quote from the TERMPOL study:

"Pilot boating may have to be delayed during periods of severe

weather."

4556. This often happens for days. How can you delay if you -- anchoring is

very tricky. You're running around in circles. I've at one time been not able to go

with the ferry out of Edye Passage and we circled around behind Stephens Island for

nine hours. It's very distressing; believe me.

(A38252)


Mr. Dieter Wagner


4557. And also, in November of this -- just last November 2011, the winds hit

140 kilometres an hour straight for many days. The wave height was in excess of 10

metres. And you wanted to run around in circles there? Good luck.

4558. There is also a website which is called passageweather.com. It gives you

a continuous update, really, from around the world and forecasts on wind forces, wind

direction, wave height, wave directions and so on. It's continuously updated. It's

fantastic.

4559. We were on this in September every day at least twice when our son made

his second sailing trip to Hawaii. We worried about him because weather conditions

around the world are getting worse. Weather conditions are getting worse, which is

well proven.

4560. So I mentioned November. Now if we go on and look at Figures 2.4, you

can see how things get -- how things narrow down in here. Two point five (2.5), one

shows the boring area. You can see it's already very tricky water where the boring is

supposed to take place.

4561. If you go to Figure 2.5, look, this very, very long channel going into

relatively short water is indicated by the light blue colour, and it's very long. It is

dangerous, to say the very least.

4562. And Figure 2.6 goes a little bit -- no, that's not 2.6, is it? No, we are

already -- oh, it is. Where Goschen Island, Porcher Island, everywhere you can see

the depth of water is also indicated. These numbers give the water depths in fathoms.

And if you look, there are arrows in here that is -- that are the tidal currents that run

across. And if you draw 70 feet of water, it does affect you; believe me.

4563. The arrows that have the little feathers on the end, they indicate flood

currents. The other ones, ebb tides.

4564. I have worked, by the way, one summer with some biologists in the kelp

beds right along -- not a little bit further down on Porcher -- no, here. Porcher Island.

And this region, there is kelp growing. Some people used to affectionately call kelp

"native radar" because it grows in water less than 70 feet deep.

4565. But -- so I worked in there and I know what these waters like. In this

region, very often you have some sand, mud and gravel, but also gigantic boulders

(A38252)


Mr. Dieter Wagner


underneath which were left when the glaciers retreated. This is what was all covered

by glaciers at one time.

4566. Down here, that is where Principe Channel starts.

4567. If I could have Figure 2.9, please. Two point nine (2.9), I would like to

draw your attention to these numbers and the names attached to these points. Foul

Point, Despair Point, Gale Point, Nepean Rock. And there's another one which I

forget where -- Calamity, near Otter Channel. Calamity Point. It is very, very tricky,

and I'll come back to that. But near Point No. 4, that is designated as a -- it's on

another slide much better. It's an anchorage, which is very, very tricky.

4568. Oh, yeah. In one point at one time in 1800 and something, a British ship

had to be totally rebuilt because it was being destroyed.

4569. Could I have Figure 2-16, please? Now we get into tricky waters.

4570. There is Douglas Channel. You're coming out. Wright Sound. There is

the Native village of Hartley Bay, which rescued the people that went into the water

when the ferry sank. The Queen of the North sank right here and sits at the depths of

1,200 feet and is still after, what, three, four years now, leaking oil.

4571. And so you imagine a huge, gigantic water -- crude oil tanker over 1,000

feet long negotiating these tight turns and going into here. It is a very tricky

manoeuvre, and even with the help of tugboats.

4572. Where we go now? So that is where the Queen of the North sits on the

bottom, right there, Hartley Bay. They went out. They heard something and went out

and rescued a lot of people that were on the ferry.

4573. Fortunately, there were, at that time, not too many. It was the wrong

season. And if the ferry would have been full of people, it would have been a

disaster.

4574. Now, can I get Figure 2-17 -- 2.17, Douglas Channel. At point 3, that's

Kitkiata Inlet. It’s also designated as an emergency anchorage. The water is from

where the shore is shallow. They drop down at an angle of about 60 degrees. I

wonder how an anchor is going to hold in those waters?

4575. And at point number 6, I believe either there or directly across, in 2009, a

(A38252)


Mr. Dieter Wagner


40,000 tonne Petersfield hit the shoreline. They had a complete steering failure.

Queen of the North was human error, but that was equipment failure.

4576. So they hit the shoreline, fortunately somewhat on an angle so it got

deflected, because you cannot stop a ship dead on, straight, but if you can deflect it, a

little bit better. My friends, Norman, who sits back here, and I took pictures of the

Petersfield where the bow was totally bashed in.

4577. Where am I now? At 2-18, please. That’s another -- that’s going north,

heading -- this is heading towards Kitimat. This is my favourite place in the world in

here, Foch Lagoon. It's very tricky to get into, and few people do. That’s why I liked

it so much. I was in there alone all the time with my family. But it narrows down.

4578. Emilia Island, this is not too wide. Emilia Island, by the way, is always --

most of the year, it’s full of seals, and us having sailboats, no power, and very, very

slowly move up there, we used to get incredibly close to the seals.

4579. The other point up there, it was very often full of sea lions. The sea lions,

you can smell them way before you can see them. So that’s not a negative thing, you

know.

4580. Where am I now? Can I have 2-20, please; 2-20 is the end of the channel.

There is Kitamaat Village, where we are right now. Here’s the Alcan smelter and

right here is where the tank farm for Enbridge is supposed to go. I hope it never

happens. It’s a very tricky thing, and I’m going to come back to this tank farm and

the problems with it at a later point. So that’s the beginning and end of the coastal

route using the northern route.

4581. Now I will come to the southern route. Could I have Figure 2-28, please?

There you come around Gill Island, and this is Caamano Sound where we have to go

through. It also looks -- it looks very convenient. It would look -- if you go to the

next picture, it’s even better, Figure 2-29, please. You take a look at Caamano

Sound, the routes that they have to take. These are emergency routes and that, and

you take that with a VLCC.

4582. Indeed, in the 1980s, one of Alcan’s ore carriers, 40,000 tonnes, glanced

off a rock in that area -- I don’t know which one -- and sliced it open for about 12, 16

feet on the starboard side near the bow, and I have seen that gash through the helm

myself.

(A38252)


Mr. Dieter Wagner


4583. So it should convince any reasonable person that this is an insane route to

take. Indeed, the B.C. coastal -- am I speaking too fast?

4584. THE CHAIRPERSON: I don’t believe so, Mr. Wagner. I think we’re

following and we’re ---

4585. MR. WAGNER: Okay. Thank you.

4586. The B.C. Coastal Pilot Association recommended that this route -- and

here I have to quote again from the TERMPOL Study:

“...be limited to moderate weather conditions.”

4587. The same was stated by the Norwegian companies who did the tanker

stimulation (sic) study.

4588. Now, what I have a problem with and what is lacking is a definition of

moderate weather, indeed, the term “moderate”. This can mean and be interpreted in

many different ways by different people and by different organizations. Does

moderate -- does it apply to visibility, fog, light conditions? Does it -- is it wave

height, direction of the waves and currents, angle of approach, ship size? Moderate

has not been defined anywhere, and I think it is very definitely a great need is there to

define “moderately”.

4589. THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Wagner, I’m sure that you’ve been

participating in the information request process, and as an intervenor you will also

have the opportunity to ask questions ---

4590. MR. WAGNER: Yes.

4591. THE CHAIRPERSON: --- of parties during the final hearings.

4592. We’re here today to hear your oral evidence based on your own

knowledge, and so that’s what we’re wanting to listen to today.

4593. MR. WAGNER: Well ---

4594. THE CHAIRPERSON: So as far as, you know, you raising questions

about what words mean and that sort of thing, you’ll have an opportunity to ask those

questions when there’s someone here to be able to answer them for you.

(A38252)


Mr. Dieter Wagner


4595. MR. WAGNER: I have sailed all those waters. So maybe I don’t know

what else I can do.

4596. And “moderate”, when it comes to the risks, who assesses the risk if it's

worth? Because if they cannot take this route, the ships will have to go around the

north end of Banks Island, which will add almost an extra day travel, et cetera.

4597. But the other thing I have down here is -- I tried to really shorten it up -- is

shown on Figure 2-37. It’s a pilot boarding on the southern route.

4598. THE CHAIRPERSON: And Mr. Wagner, I’m not trying to tell you that

you can’t speak any more at all. I’m just trying to explain that what we’re really

looking for right now is your knowledge and your views on the impacts of the

proposed project. But raising questions when there isn’t anybody here to be able to

address them for you won’t be that helpful for us.

4599. MR. WAGNER: Okay.


4601. MR. WAGNER: One point in here is I do have a letter here which is

notarized for you, if you wanted to, from a gentleman by the name of David Newman.

He used to be -- in his letter, he’s very moderate.

4602. He does not state that he was, for many years, the operations manager in --

at the Canadian Helicopters out of Terrace and he was the chief pilot, and after his

retirement he has operated from cruise ships in the Arctic. So he has extensive

knowledge about what is possible with helicopters to get pilots aboard and what is

not. So I leave this here for you to take into consideration.

4603. THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Wagner, does that mean you’re wanting to

ask the permission -- the Panel’s permission to file that as late written evidence? Is

that ---

4604. MR. WAGNER: I would -- yes, please.

4605. THE CHAIRPERSON: And nobody has had a chance to view it at this

point?

(A38252)


Mr. Dieter Wagner


4606. MR. WAGNER: I only got it a couple of days ago.

4607. THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay.

4608. So let me just check with Mr. Neufeld again. Mr. Neufeld, do you have

concerns that you’d like to express or any viewpoints on this?

4609. MR. NEUFELD: Thanks for asking. Thanks, Panel.

4610. I haven’t seen it, so obviously I can’t comment one way or another on

whether it should be put onto the record at this stage. I have had a chance to have a

look at the photos that Mr. Minchin had referred to, and I didn’t have a problem with

those.

4611. Perhaps the best way to do it is for us to look at it over the break and then

we can tell you.

4612. THE CHAIRPERSON: That would be terrific. Let’s proceed in that

way.

4613. MR. WAGNER: Okay. So ---


4615. MR. WAGNER: I don’t know because a lot of my presentation

continues in the same manner. I had something down here on navigational aides

which are supposedly to go in and on fuel consumption and the effects of global

warming. And we have actually here absolutely supreme air at this point in time. We

have clean water.

4616. But when this shipping happens -- and it’s not just the crude oil tankers.

When you take into account all the other ships that are being planned for for LNG and

the freighters for other cargo, the volume is increasing continuously. Where is it all

leading? Our government is telling us that we should drive smaller cars. We should

walk and bicycle, and yet every decision they make, more fuel is being consumed.

4617. As a matter of fact, taking only the big tankers into account, they would be

using -- going to China. If they would all be going to China, about half a billion

tonnes of fuel that are spewing up into the atmosphere and, as we know, the jet

streams travel west to east. Everything comes back to us. Even the debris from

(A38252)


Mr. Dieter Wagner


Japan, the disasters, are beginning to show up on our coast.

4618. But I guess you consider that also something that should be done another -

- later on and as evidence?

4619. THE CHAIRPERSON: I will admit to not being a mind reader. So I

can’t tell you, but what I can tell you is that these hearings are your chance to share

your knowledge and the views of the impacts of the proposed project that may have

on you or your community and how any of those impacts can be eliminated or

reduced.

4620. As far as asking any questions, as I said, there are no panels here to be

able to address any questions that you raise. And also, as far as providing, you know,

your final views on the argument of -- as far as whether -- what your views are on the

project, the evidence isn’t all in yet and so this wouldn’t be -- your best time to do

that is during the final argument stage.

4621. So it’s your knowledge and your views on the impacts that the proposed

project may have on you and your community and how those impacts could be

eliminated or reduced that we’re here to hear about today.

4622. So if it works for you, what I’d suggest we do is perhaps this is an

opportune time to take a break and let you take a look at what you’re wanting to share

with us at this point and then we’ll come back and finish up.

4623. Yes?

4624. MR. SHANNON: I don’t want to speak out of turn, but I also have some

evidence presented later, beyond the deadline, so if you’re going to consider Mr.

Minchin’s -- sorry, Mr. Wagner’s evidence, if you wouldn’t at the same time also like

to have a look at the stuff I gave because I was late in, late in getting it forth because

of a ferry trip that was delayed because of weather and couldn’t make the deadline.

4625. THE CHAIRPERSON: Let’s take about a 20-minute break and then you

can work with our staff to make sure that you have the opportunity to figure out your

next steps and we’ll reconvene at 10:35.

4626. Thank you.

--- Upon recessing at 10:15 a.m./L’audience est suspendue à 10h15

(A38252)


Mr. Dieter Wagner


--- Upon resuming at 10:44 a.m./L’audience est reprise à 10h44

4627. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, everyone. We’ll be ready to get

under way shortly here.

MURRAY MINCHIN: Resumed

DIETER WAGNER: Resumed

DAVE SHANNON: Resumed

MARGARET OUWEHAND: Resumed

CHERYL BROWN: Resumed

4628. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, everyone. Just before we get under

way again with this panel, I just wanted to speak a little bit more. If people are

having conversations, if we could just quieten down so that we can get under way.

Thank you very much.

4629. Before we go back to the Douglas Channel Watch panel, I just want to

speak a little bit more about oral evidence. What we’re finding very helpful to us is

when you share your personal knowledge, your personal experience on the impacts

that the proposed project may have on you and your community.

4630. For example, when Mr. Minchin spoke of his experiences and his

observations over many years of outdoor activities in the region, including his sea

kayaking adventures, the Panel finds that very helpful.

4631. The same way with Mr. Wagner, when you speak of your experiences and

knowledge of the local coastline, the local environment from your years of sailing in

the region and other activities that you’ve undertaken, these are aspects that the Panel

finds very helpful in the collection of the oral evidence.

4632. So I would hope that that would provide some additional clarity to the

parties and we’ll just proceed on that basis, and we’re here to listen. That’s what we

want to do; we want to listen to you about what your personal experiences and your

personal knowledge are on things that you can’t manage to put down on paper

because that’s the piece, is about the oral evidence as opposed to submitting it in

writing.

4633. So I hope that helps all of us be able to proceed in a way that we can listen

and gain knowledge from you based on your oral evidence.

(A38252)


Mr. Dieter Wagner


4634. Mr. Neufeld, did you have a chance to review the written affidavit?

4635. MR. NEUFELD: Yes. We did have some discussions over the break,

primarily with respect to Mr. Shannon’s information. My understanding is that the

letter that we’re talking about is a letter from a third party that Mr. Wagner would like

to have placed on the record.

4636. There are procedures for filing written evidence late, and my suggestion

has been that he correspond to the Board asking permission to do that and file the

written evidence late and we’ll deal with it at the time that that written request is

made.

4637. I do want to say as well that we are also here to listen and we do find the

information that -- as you said, that was expressed to the Panel to be useful and we

can hopefully respond to some of that at the appropriate time under the Board’s,

under the Board’s Rules of Procedure.

4638. And we don’t want to stand on procedure here, particularly with

unrepresented groups, so you won’t be hearing much from me on that.

4639. We do have a concern that the oral portion of the hearing not be used as a

bit of a dumping ground for written evidence that could otherwise be provided or

have been provided and so that’s why, with respect to Mr. Wagner’s letter from a

third party, we’re suggesting that you would do it -- or that he would file it according

to the Board’s usual processes for seeking written permission to file late.

4640. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Neufeld.

4641. Mr. Wagner, as we indicated yesterday, the Panel, because of the

importance of listening to the oral evidence, is not going to be entertaining motions

on anything other than directly related to the oral evidence.

4642. So in this case, we would ask you to follow the procedure that we have

outlined and file the letter on the registry seeking permission of the Panel to accept it

as late written evidence.

4643. That’s clear for you?

4644. MR. WAGNER: Yeah.

(A38252)


Mr. Dieter Wagner


4645. THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, terrific. Thank you.

4646. MR. WAGNER: Thank you.

4647. THE CHAIRPERSON: So we were -- we were with you, Mr. Wagner,

and want to know if you have anything further that you want to share in terms of your

personal knowledge and experience with the Panel.

4648. MR. WAGNER: Well, I think ---

4649. THE CHAIRPERSON: On the subject, of course.

--- ORAL PRESENTATION BY/REPRÉSENTATION ORALE PAR MR. DIETER

WAGNER: (Continued/Suite)

4650. MR. WAGNER: On the subject. Maybe just this slide, I have one more

thing and then I will shut her down.

4651. There’s a pilot boarding area, Pine Island, that is on the southern road and

this is very close to the northern end of Vancouver Island. There’s an incredible

amount of traffic and there is talk in the TERMPOL papers having to build another

station for pilot boats and for helicopter landing. And in that region, in quite a

number of years the hydrographic surveys they build in wave height measuring voice.

4652. There was, for example, a lighthouse -- there was a lighthouse not far from

there. The base, concrete base, was 100 feet above the water and one day the

lighthouse itself that stretched to the sky above it was gone. They rebuilt it and it was

gone again; so they’ve given up.

4653. So they have measured, in that region, waves in excess of 100 feet. And

I’ve sailed those areas too and I know Pine Island as well. So that is one thing which

is very, very tricky and the B.C. Pilots Association recommended not to do the pilot

boarding right there.

4654. But that’s all covered in the term TERMPOL papers.

4655. At this point and time, I think that whatever else I would have to say, I

think you’d have to object towards that it is a more appropriate thing at a later time

under cross-examination.

(A38252)


Mr. Dave Shannon


4656. So I will just abide by this and sail along.

4657. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Wagner.

4658. The Panel has no questions of clarification from you.

4659. Thank you very much for your oral evidence.


4660. THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Shannon.

--- ORAL PRESENTATION BY/REPRÉSENTATION ORALE PAR MR. DAVE

SHANNON:

4661. MR. SHANNON: Yes, I’d like to thank the Haisla for presenting the

venue and being very wonderful hosts for us and the Panel for entertaining our

presentations.

4662. And I’d especially like to thank my wife for putting up with me for the last

two or three years.

4663. So anyways, let’s see, my topic is corrosion and double-hulled tankers.

The reason I made this into a PowerPoint presentation and not written evidence is that

it includes some of my personal history and why I’m here today.

4664. My education background is partly involved in this and some of the things

that led to me being an engineer with metallurgical background is explained to some

extent with what the slide will show.

4665. So corrosion in double-hulled tankers. Could I have the next slide please?

4666. This is the Coastguard personal experience. When I was going to

university, my parents didn’t have a lot of money so I had to take a year or two out to

earn enough to continue without staggering university loans. So I had a bit of time on

a Coastguard cutter in 1965.

4667. What you see right there is the Coastguard cutter racer which is now --

was in search and rescue. But I was a relief oiler on board and got very sick in the

(A38252)


Mr. Dave Shannon


engine room with rough weather and diesel fuel sloshing around in the skupper. So

that’s my first bit of seagoing experience.

4668. That ship is now personal property of somebody else. It’s no longer with

the Coastguard.

4669. So I became interested in the sea with this little bit of training, earning

enough money to go through university.

4670. Could I have the next slide please?

4671. The next one on the Coastguard was with the Estevan which was a

lighthouse tender. This was again a two-month experience, band of 1966. I was a

seaman on board, and it was a very interesting job because we used to pluck the

buoys out of the ocean complete with anchor and concrete block and put that on deck

and then haul up the buoy onto the deck as well as all the chain attached and scrape

the barnacles off.

4672. I saw some rust on board the Estevan which when -- one of the chores we

had was to chip the rust off the deck. I saw some chunks of rust that reminded me of

the meat in a ham sandwich that you might find at a deli. It was so thick and it was

all layered. I thought, “My goodness, that’s interesting.”

4673. While I was deciding what do to with my engineering pursuits, I thought

metallurgy sounds like a good thing. So this ship probably is one of the reasons for

that.

4674. Okay. The next slide please.

4675. That’s a cross-section of a double-hulled tanker. There’s a human being

right there. These double-hulled tankers are many compartments, I think something

in the order of 80 feet from bottom of cargo tank to top deck plate. There are many

compartments, segregated tanks. So you can put crude oil in each one.

4676. There’s always an air space above the cargo in each one which is an area

that I’ll go into in a bit more detail in a couple of slides. But the idea is you’ve got an

air space around the inner hull. It’s a band of space ranging from six to ten feet wide.

4677. That serves as a ballasting region where you can take on saltwater and

sink the ship lower into the sea in order to give it stability while you don’t have cargo

(A38252)


Mr. Dave Shannon


on board. Prior to coming to port, you make room for the cargo by offloading the

ballast outside, hopefully outside the open water area.

4678. One of the things that’s quite interesting about this picture is that it’s very

difficult to build one of these because of all the bulkheads, scantlings, weldments, et

cetera.

4679. It’s also extremely difficult to inspect them. If you have to -- the primary

regions to have a look at are the bottom of the cargo tanks and just about everywhere

in the ballast tanks because you have saltwater exposed to steel which hopefully is

painted or coated with something.

4680. There are some really interesting corrosion mechanisms that can affect

you in a ship design like this. In inspecting, one requires, for example, the -- I don’t

know whether it goes from fill that tank up with water from bottom to top as an

inspector rides a raft up and down the sides of the tank to see if there’s any rust

requiring repair.

4681. The inspection on the outside wall is also very difficult. There’s space

concerns. There’s not a lot of room to have a look around.

4682. An inspection itself is extremely difficult because if you have had a prior

cargo onboard you have to exhaust all of the noxious petroleum, et cetera, fumes.

Carbon dioxide is in there as well from inert gassing while this ship is at sea.

4683. The inspection would be difficult if it came to port and somebody said,

“Well, let’s have a look inside.” You can’t do that because you’d die trying to have a

look, unless you completely evacuated the gases in each cargo tank.

4684. So hard to inspect, hard to build; that’s the point of that slide.

4685. Next one, please.

4686. This is a picture of a modern double-hulled tanker beside the Eiffel Tower.

They are very big. Their deck areas can be in the area of seven acres. I live on a

five-acre property and I don’t walk the border of that very often in my life. It’s huge.

It’s 140 metres taller than the Eiffel Tower and I don’t know how a B.C. ferry would

fit in regards to that picture, but it’s miniscule.

4687. The next slide, please.

(A38252)


Mr. Dave Shannon


4688. Corrosion in double-hulled tankers, the ballast tanks, one of the problems

is there’s an awful lot more surface area in a double-hulled tanker than in a single-

hulled because of all the extra hull, the interior hull. It represents about two to two

and half times more space to worry about and a lot of that is having to be painted or

coated with epoxies to stop corrosion from taking place.

4689. The ballast tanks are always wet. They are always wet with saltwater.

There are cathodic protection that you can give some of these regions, but one of the

hassles is there’s saltwater around.

4690. The bottom shell is continuously wet and it’s submerged and it’s muddy.

It’s muddy because the ship is taken on ballast often in an Eastern sea port where you

might pick up sediment from a river feeding that port. Underneath the mud you can

have colonies of bacteria living which can give rise to what’s called microbial-

induced corrosion. That’s a technical term shortened to MIC.

4691. The double-hulled inner shell is subject to large and frequent temperature

fluctuations because you load the cargo with something, I guess, around 70 degrees

centigrade and you unload it. So there are temperature fluctuations there.

4692. The inner shell has a higher cracking potential because the steel will flex

and the cargo’s heat on the coating can often cause it to break down.

4693. In making of one of these double-hulled tankers in order to keep the

weight down and the cost as well, they have to -- the inner hull, the extra one, is made

of usually a tensile steel which is roughly 20 percent thinner than the steel of the outer

hull. So they've saved material by making it thinner, also cost. But corrosion can

proceed. If you have 7 millimetres of corrosion in a thinner hull, it can puncture the

hull quicker than a thicker one. So there's some concerns with speed of

compromising a cargo tank, for example.

4694. The next slide please. To give you an idea of why double-hulled corrosion

could be considerably more of a worry than a single hull, this is a picture that's -- let's

put it this way; the single-hull tanker is the cross-section on the right-hand side and

what you're seeing is the red zone is the cargo that's been in the -- it's been in the --

it's a crude oil that's been in the cargo tank for a fairly long time and is given time to

chill on exposure to the sea on the outer wall. So, you know, this cargo is fairly cool

at the bottom and up most of the side.

(A38252)


Mr. Dave Shannon


4695. When you compare that with a double-hulled tanker which has this

insulating air gap all around it, it's insulated from the sea's contact to that hull by the

air space. So the cargo is warmer at the top and, you know, as cool as the other bit on

the bottom.

4696. So a temperature -- that doesn't show up too well. That's the source of this

picture. There's an insulating effect of double-hulled construction. So corrosion can

happen faster when conditions are warm.

4697. So you've got a little bit more warmth in a double hull than a single hull

and a lot more areas for corrosion to take place; the bottom of the hull, the bottom of

the inner tank, the deck plate on the -- the deck plate of the -- well, in both cases, the

deck plate is a concern.

4698. The next slide please. Under deck, there's a vapour space on the top of the

cargo between the top of the oil surface and the deck plate where folks are walking.

These are dry -- these continue to be dry and wet due to temperature changes in the

day and night. The atmosphere above the oil is composed of some amount of sulphur

dioxide, carbon dioxide and some hydrogen sulphide, which is the rotten egg gas that

comes from the cargo.

4699. Also on the bottom of the cargo tank is a thin layer of seawater because

any moisture that exists in the oil -- on top of the oil, because it's less dense than the

oil itself, it will sink to the bottom.

4700. So there's a thin layer of water on the bottom, some sludge as well. And

the microbial attacks like to -- they live in an -- they call it anaerobic. They don't

need air to exist. So they live down here in little communities that are savaging any

exposed steel. That's why the coating on the bottom is so important. You want to

make sure that's not going to have a problem.

4701. So that -- okay, the next slide would be good here. In the cargo tanks,

what you have to do because of the explosive gas mixture above the crude oil cargo,

you have to displace that, get rid of the petroleum fumes, the hydrogen sulphide gas,

because if there was a spark in there, it would ignite and the ship could explode.

4702. So what they do is typically they will pass a ship boiler exhaust into that

space and hopefully remove any hydrogen sulphide and petroleum fumes that are in

there and make it a neutral non-explosive air gap on top of the cargo.

(A38252)


Mr. Dave Shannon


4703. So one of the things you do is you punch -- you put the ship boiler exhaust

through a wet scrubber, which removes the sulphur dioxide from it, which sulphur

dioxide is -- when you put that in -- if you put that into a cargo tank, it can combine

with water to produce sulphuric acid. So you certainly don't want any SO2, sulphur

dioxide, in your gases going in there.

4704. They wet scrub it to get rid of the sulphur dioxide, but having wet

scrubbed it, unless you dry it real well, you do introduce some moisture. So some

ships double dry this. They dry it -- they scrub it once and dry it twice. Some ships

don't; so there's some ships that might have a greater amount of sulphur dioxide in

that air space, which is a corrosive water gas.

4705. So I say water is non-intentionally introduced with the inert gas that goes

into the vacant space above the cargo tanks. Humidity varies with day and night

temperatures and fluctuations in the gas space. Any hydrogen sulphide that is a

natural product of the crude oil will combine with moisture vapour in the tank itself to

produce a mild acid, which with temperature fluctuations, night and day, it goes -- it's

not what you'd expect.

4706. The cooler conditions is when the acid tends to prevail. The warmer

conditions cause the hydrogen sulphide to come out of the solution. So it's the

variation in temperatures that can cause some problems, especially in cold nights or

cooler nights.

4707. Other acids that are formed are not the same. Carbon dioxide can combine

with water vapour in there and produce a carbonic acid, which would settle to the

bottom of the cargo. So that's a fairly strong acid that would attack any steel.

4708. I'm sorry if I'm technical. I'm an engineer and it's a habit. Okay. Could I

have the next slide please?

4709. So double-hulled corrosion, here's an example: you have an anode and you

have a cathode, and you have an electrolyte causing the electrons to travel from one

place to another. That's how corrosion happens. The anode is in the iron on the

uncoated steel structure. The cathode is in the other elements, including sulphur.

4710. Corrosion; rust is the consequence of a flow of ions between the anode

and cathode through the electrolyte. So that's again a reproduction of one of the

slides you've already seen.

(A38252)


Mr. Dave Shannon


4711. The next slide please. These little microbes can pit a double-hulled tanker

pretty quickly, and there's an example of unexposed -- sorry, an exposed steel site that

has had microbes working on it. It can -- microbes can drill. Actually, they do pitting

corrosion but they can pretty quickly -- if they've got a site that they can work on,

they'll go pretty fast.

4712. So they can pierce the cargo tank of a double-hulled tanker and the last

thing you want to have is crude oil in the ballast regions because there's no inert gases

down there, and an explosion hazard is down that way.

4713. Okay, next slide please. So the industry takes care of especially the under-

deck spaces. So they have to coat that very carefully usually with an epoxy and they

also have to coat the bottom of the cargo tank with epoxy or very good corrosion-

resistant paint. So that's where the inspectors would pay a lot of attention to the cargo

tank. They would also have a really good look inside the ballast tanks for any

corrosion.

4714. So there's a constant attention on building inspection and they want to

make sure there's no breaks in the corrosion protection because any little -- any little

flaw can cause this thing to go pretty fast.

4715. Next slide please. The Oil Protection Act 90 -- OPA 90 they called it --

came into effect after a series of rather severe incidents of single-hull tankers. The

latest one was the one -- the Prestige in 2002 was an 82 million-litre spill. Corrosion

was the main assigned cause for that one.

4716. The Erika was somewhat lesser in 1999, and it was caused predominantly

due to corrosion.

4717. The Exxon Valdez was bigger than that one and it was human error

caused.

4718. So the Prestige accelerated the phase-out of single-hull tankers, but as the

previous slides have suggested, corrosion is by no means gone when you have a

double hull. There's more regions for a problem and some folks think that double-

hulled tankers will eventually, with time, present a problem with corrosion that

single-hulled tankers have not, and it's still in the early stages yet.

4719. The next slide please. The second disaster I've referred to in the previous

slide was the Erika. It was the worst spill in 20 years. I think it was outside Spain. I

(A38252)


Mr. Dave Shannon


can't remember -- not exactly sure. It affected 250 miles of coast.

4720. When it came to establishing who was responsible for the spill, this ship

was interesting because the owner had looked around for a classification society that

would overlook the corrosion that was predominant on board. She was single hull,

and a double hull would have not fared much better. Weather was a factor. No port

would accept her, and she broke apart.

4721. So the -- in trying to establish who paid for that spill or nail the owner, the

ship sailed under the flag of Malta, it was owned by two Liberian firms, managed by

an Italian operator, chartered by a Bahamian company based in Switzerland, so who's

the guy? Where do you go?

4722. Anyways, it's an interesting story behind that one. I'm not presenting it as

an argument. It's just it's a point of fact.

4723. Next one, please. Recent -- this is quite recent, December 29th

of 2011.

The Coast Guard has planned some cuts on the MT -- Marine Coast Traffic Services,

MCTS.

4724. And next slide, please. So this is a newspaper article that came from that

newspaper.

4725. One more slide. Thanks. So this is a continuation of the article. I couldn't

get it on one slide without making the print too small. So there's planned cuts to

Coast Guard centres.

4726. The union that’s written this article is concerned that mariner safety due to

inadequate resources during emergencies could be the result of reducing at certain

times of year from a three-man crew to a two-man crew to handle emergencies. So

the article goes on to -- Allan Hughes is the author. He said:

"When we get a day like today where it was beautiful, sunny and

calm and now it's blowing up to 30 knots on the water, it doesn't

take long for a lot of incidents to occur, so everybody's going to be

busy and it's going to be hard to react."

4727. Next slide, please. So the MCTS -- this is a continuation, again, of the

same article -- centres provide distress and safety communication, traffic services and

weather information. It gives some details on -- in the Cape Lazo and the region of

(A38252)


Mr. Dave Shannon


Comox, which is affected. A total of 17 people work at the Comox centre. Other

centres are located in Vancouver, Victoria and Prince Rupert, so Prince Rupert would

be similarly affected.

4728. This concerns me quite a bit because Coast Guard has already been

reducing the size of its fleet. It's also reducing manning levels, which could be

serious at times when you need them.

4729. So the next slide, please. These people that are -- it's, again, a

continuation of the article.

4730. They're worried. They're very worried about it. The source of that article

is here for anybody who wants to have a look.

4731. So that's -- let's see. That wraps up why I'm here. I'm an engineer with a

metallurgical background. You can sure tell by the way I'm giving you this

presentation.

4732. And the next slide is a quote from the Captain of the HMS Titanic, which I

just want you to read and think about. It's a 100-year old quote by now:

"I cannot imagine any condition which would cause this ship to

founder. I cannot conceive of any vital disaster happening to the

vessel. Modern shipbuilding has gone beyond that."

4733. We all know where the Titanic is now, but I just want us to be careful and

think very carefully about this project.

4734. And that's my presentation.


4735. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks very much, Mr. Shannon.

4736. I neglected to make sure that we got a visual aid number attached to your

presentation. So, Louise, could you do that for us?

4737. THE REGULATORY OFFICER: That will be Visual Aid No. 2.

(A38252)





Presentation slides provided by Mr. Dave Shannon

4738. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks, Mr. Shannon. The Panel has no

questions of clarification from your presentation. Thank you.

4739. So we'll move to Mrs. Ouwehand.

--- ORAL PRESENTATION BY/REPRÉSENTATION ORALE PAR MS.

MARGARET OUWEHAND:

4740. MS. OUWEHAND: Thank you. I'd like to say thank you to the Haisla

people for their kind hospitality. I'd also like to thank the three Panel Members who

are here to listen to our concerns.

4741. I'm a member of Douglas Channel Watch. I was born in Prince George,

B.C., and I've been a resident of Kitimat for 51 years.

4742. In the 1970s, I was a wife and the mother of six children. I had very little

free time, but when I heard that an oil port was to be built in Kitimat, I soon learned

of the dangers it represented to the environment. The idea was to import oil from

Alaska, send it to Edmonton, and then down to the States. We were told by the

Kitimat Oil Pipeline Company that it was in the best interests of Canada and that it

was inevitable.

4743. I wrote letters of protest to people such as Iona Camponolo, Liberal MP

for our area, and Lynn Marchand, Federal Minister of the Environment.

4744. Others did much more, much, much more, including writing letters to the

local newspaper, until the editor of the day refused to print any that were against the

oil port.

4745. The government had appointed Dr. Andrew Thompson to make a report,

but before the report was completed, the project was stopped and we have lived

without fear of a crude oil spill for the past 33 years.


(A38252)




4746. MS. OUWEHAND: Now, please consider the irony of the situation. The

oil industry originally wanted to build an oil port in Kitmat to import oil. Now we are

facing the prospect of an oil port to export oil. Once again, we are told that it's in the

best interests of Canada and that it's inevitable.

4747. Our beautiful environment is here for all Canadians to enjoy. We can't let

it be ruined by an industry that cares only about money. Once again, our rivers, our

channel, our wildlife, the First Nations way of life as well as that of those of us who

are relative newcomers, all are being threatened.

4748. In response to this threat posed by Enbridge, seven of us met on a sunny

afternoon in Dieter Wagner's back yard. Some I had not even met before, and we

came from very different backgrounds. We chose a name for our group, Douglas

Channel Watch.

4749. Since that day in 2009, many more have joined our group. We have

written letters and shown educational documentaries. We paid the expenses from our

own pockets and from local donations.

4750. We sent out leaflets to make sure that everyone -- Murray wrote the leaflet

up, by the way, and it was an extremely good one, warning people of the looming

deadline. And we sent those out to make sure that everyone in Kitimat was aware of

the deadline so they could sign up to speak at the hearings.

4751. At that time, I was very willing to pay for the printing and distribution

costs, and I actually had it on my credit card intending to pay it, but I was pleasantly

surprised to be reimbursed by Friends of Wild Salmon. We are truly a grass roots

organization, and I don't like the untruths that are being told to discredit groups such

as ours.

4752. Personally -- personally, not speaking on behalf of Douglas Channel

Watch because maybe they wouldn't want to accept help from the Mafia; I don't

know. But personally, I would welcome any support, financial or otherwise, from

any organization, any institution, any country that will help us protect our land and

water from oil spills.

4753. Unless polluted by crude oil, our productive, beautiful environment will be

around long after the oil has been depleted. The Enbridge project is not worth the

risk. Please do the honourable thing and say no to this dangerous project.

(A38252)


Ms. Cheryl Brown


4754. Thank you.


4755. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks very much, Mrs. Ouwehand.

4756. In a process like this where we have many different aspects of a way to

become involved, we have the oral evidence and then we have oral statements and

that’s when you state your position about what you feel of the -- about the proposed

project.

4757. So just from an educational perspective and nothing more than that, the

Panel would consider what you presented with us today an oral statement as opposed

to oral evidence. And in our process we’re going to be listening to all the oral

statements at a later point in the process.

4758. So I just wanted to use this as an educational moment for all of us and

those listening in, just so -- not singling you out, Mrs. Ouwehand, in any way, but just

to let you know that the type of presentation that you gave us is very much along the

lines of an oral statement and so just for all of our information.

4759. I don’t believe the Panel has any questions of clarification from you.

4760. Thank you.

4761. MS. OUWEHAND: Thank you.


4763. Ms. Brown?

--- ORAL PRESENTATION BY/REPRÉSENTATION ORALE PAR MS.

CHERYL BROWN:

4764. MS. BROWN: Good morning.

4765. First of all I’d like to thank the Haisla for welcoming us and their

hospitality and also thank you for coming here and for your time and interest.

(A38252)


Ms. Cheryl Brown


4766. I’m a citizen of this area and I’m a member of Douglas Channel Watch

and I’ve lived in the area for about 35 years, so I’m a fairly newcomer.

4767. The evidence that I will briefly present is my experiences within the

processes of engagement as a citizen with government. I’ve had extensive experience

and I’m going to relate to you how it has been for me for the last number of years, i.e.

25 years, and how it’s changed in the -- and from my perspective, eroded.

4768. My first experience began about 20 years ago with an ad in the paper

asking for interested people to give comment on a provincial land management

process plan. As a person of the Kitimat Valley I’ve been concerned about forestry

practices, as the valley had been stripped of timber within a few years prior to my

actually coming to live here and it was quite decimated.

4769. I went to the first meeting and presented my values that I held and they

were the protection of environment, maintaining a sustainable land base and

sustainable development, along with being involved as a citizen and my value in that.

4770. And I must say, there weren’t a lot of citizens involved in this process. So

I became involved, in part, in that process and it transpired for almost 10 years; it was

a very long period of time to be involved.

4771. The group consisted of industry, mainly forestry, it consisted of

government reps, trappers, fishers, First Nations, tourism, miners, recreationists and

amongst others. It was a very diverse group with many interests but dominated by

industry, i.e. the forestry industry, industry that had resisted restrictions and doing

things differently.

4772. So it was a process that we went through. But the group managed through

a process of consensus to produce a plan that was eventually adopted by the

provincial government.

4773. I had several areas of interest that I worked on and I worked hard in the

area of coastal planning and the development of provincial parks, particularly on the

Douglas Channel, such as the areas of Eagle Bay, Gilltoyees, Foch Lagoon, Sue

Channel, Weewanie Hot Springs, Shearwater and many others.

4774. I learned many things about forestry. I learned that the practice of the

early days of clear-cutting had left this part of the province in a very difficult position

for future cutting that we’re trying to deal with now. It was an example to me of an

(A38252)


Ms. Cheryl Brown


industry taking advantage of a situation for profit.

4775. At the end of it I learned that as a citizen I could make a difference. I

learned as well that as citizens we need to speak up and present our ideas and

concerns or they’re not addressed.

4776. I’m now a member of the Plan and Implementation Committee of that plan

and I’ve seen a shift occur within the processes that are out there. I’ve seen a

deregulation of processes. I’ve seen an institution of -- beginning of what they call

“self-regulation” and in that I have concerns.

4777. The Northern Gateway is certainly a different process from the land

management process that I went through. Here we only have input into the process

through evidence and we’re not part of the decision making and the dialogue is

certainly much more restricted.

4778. With the beginning of the application I’ve taken every opportunity to

speak of my values. I spoke at the first public sessions in Kitimat, expressing my

concerns over the limits of the process. I’ve read good parts of the -- I’ve read many

parts of the proposal. I’ve been baffled and taken back by the gaps in the Proponent’s

submission.

4779. I became an intervenor. I’ve submitted information requests and I’ve been

dismayed at times by the vague non-answers that didn’t clarify the situations for me.

I’ve submitted evidence and as practically as possible, based on my understanding

and my background.

4780. So I’ve done a lot and I must say that through all this the JRP has been

accommodating and respectful and the NEB has been nothing but absolutely helpful

to me in this process.

4781. Through it I’ve also become a member of the Enbridge Community

Advisory Board in Kitimat. While most others who were opposed to the project left

the table, I stayed. I stayed to witness the process.

4782. The CABs as they’re known are completely Enbridge driven. It’s been a

respectful process but not a balanced one. It has presented information to the table

about the project but has not addressed the hard questions.

4783. I’m not sure who it is advising, except to reassure the Enbridge --

(A38252)


Ms. Cheryl Brown


Enbridge that the process that it’s attempting to meet its community mandate but the

CAB is not an independent entity within this.

4784. In all of this I’m a member of the Douglas Channel Watch where I mingle

with like-minded people. Our mission statement is we are dedicated to protecting the

environmental integrity of Douglas Channel and its watershed for the future and

present -- for the present and future generations.

4785. As a group we work to educate others on issues and to provide a balance

of information to the onslaught of the Proponent’s submission and other information

blitzes. As a grassroots organization this has been tough, when there’s no resources

from which to operate from, except our own wits.

4786. As a group we worked hard to bring people to the awareness that they

could speak to the project. They have come forward and they feel excited and they

feel empowered by it and it fits for my values as a citizen that becomes involved in all

this.

4787. It is to my dismay that the federal government has in recent days taken to

the intimidation and bullying of these individuals. They are calling well-intentioned

people “radical ideologists”.

4788. As a person who believes in citizen involvement and as a work to enable it

this interference is unbelievable and it is beyond my previous experience. It is an

interference in a process that the government itself has set up.

4789. As a citizen I do not know where to go from here except to holdfast. It

does not bode well for me that the government itself is not respecting the process of

its citizens, stating that citizen’s right to speak is actually delaying or interfering in a

process that they as a government want to move forward on.

4790. All I know is how to be a reasonable person. I believe in an ability to be

engaged, I believe in an ability to have a conversation about projects, I believe in

being involved in a political process.

4791. I’m concerned about my ability to move forward in this and the ability of

others. I know that as a Panel you are working hard and you are working in good

faith, but I have concerns about the government and the decision making.

4792. It is not clear to me how this decision process will be made and how it is

(A38252)


Ms. Cheryl Brown


that people are going to do this particular task. But I'm losing confidence in the

ability of this process from my own personal experience from in the past.

4793. Thank you.


4794. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms. Brown. The Panel has no

questions of clarification.

4795. Does this complete the Douglas Channel Watch Panel, then? It does?

4796. Then thank you very much for your participation and we very much

appreciate it.

4797. It's 11:30 now. I'm going to suggest that we take a break and reconvene at

one o'clock.

4798. Thank you, everyone.

--- Upon recessing at 11:32 a.m./L’audience est suspendue à 11h32

--- Upon resuming at 1:00 p.m./L’audience est reprise à 13h00

4799. THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, everyone. If we could get you

to take your seats, we'll be ready to get under way soon.


4800. THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome back.

4801. I understand there's still lots of food, or there was midpoint through lunch;

so please feel free to help yourself as the afternoon progresses.

4802. I'd like to now call the Métis Nation of B.C., please.

4803. Anywhere you're comfortable with, Mr. Ducommun.

4804. So before we begin, will all three of you be presenting evidence this

afternoon?

(A38252)

Métis Nation of BC - Oral presentation

Mr. Gary Ducommun


4805. MR. DUCOMMUN: No, I'll be the major presenter. What I have -- I'll

introduce my colleagues, who are Métis from this area.

4806. THE CHAIRPERSON: So would it be your wish to have everybody

sworn or affirmed at this point?

4807. MR. DUCOMMUN: I think just myself.

4808. THE CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon?

4809. MR. DUCOMMUN: Just myself.

4810. THE CHAIRPERSON: Just yourself? Okay. Thank you.

4811. Louise?

GARY DUCOMMUN: Sworn

4812. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Ducommun.

4813. Perhaps before you get started with your evidence you could introduce

who's sitting with you for everybody to know?

4814. MR. DUCOMMUN: I could do that, certainly. On my right is Rene

Lussier. Rene is involved in the Natural Resources Program with Métis Nation, and

he's the Captain for the northeast -- northwest region, pardon me, which includes

Kitimat, Terrace, Smithers, Fort -- I want to keep saying Fort Simpson -- Prince

Rupert, I guess.

4815. And on my right is James Robinson. James is a consultation coordinator

for Métis Nation British Columbia. James has lived in Kitimat in the past and done a

lot of resource harvesting here. And I should mention also that Rene's son and family

live in Kitimat.

4816. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Ducommun. Please proceed.

--- ORAL PRESENTATION BY/REPRÉSENTATION PAR MR. GARY

DUCOMMUN:

(A38252)


Mr. Gary Ducommun


4817. MR. DUCOMMUN: So I guess I'll introduce myself. My name is Gary

Ducommun. I am the Director of Natural Resources for Métis Nation British

Columbia. I'm a registered professional biologist; fisheries is my specialty. And I'm

also a traditional land user. I am Métis. My family's been in British Columbia since

about 1811.

4818. I think -- I thought a lot about how I'm going to use 15 minutes, and I may

use a little bit more than 15 minutes, but I hope that that's sufficient in that this is the

first presentation of several that Métis Nation B.C. will be doing, and the reason is we

have interests along the entire pipeline route and also in the marine end.

4819. And so what I thought I would do is just give a very brief description of

kind of who the Métis in British Columbia are, how we connect to the Métis people

who are protected under the Constitution Act of Canada and who we represent, and

that would be a one-timer which wouldn't have to be repeated in future presentations.

4820. And then I would speak just to the issues and concerns of Métis people

specifically around the marine and this end of the project with the intent of speaking

at other JRP hearings in other cities about specific interests there of Métis.

4821. So Métis Nation B.C. is a governing member of the Métis National

Council, which is the group -- it's the national Aboriginal organization that represents

one of the three constitutionally protected people in Canada. Métis Nation B.C. looks

after the British Columbia area, and we have 35 chartered communities that are part

of our organization. And we currently have just over 6,800 citizens. And a citizen,

by our definition, is -- meets the definition in R v. Powley, the Supreme Court Métis

rights case that actually defined who a Métis was.

4822. So all of the people that we represent are Métis under the definition of the

Supreme Court; so they are all rights holders.

4823. Métis Nation B.C. is a relatively new organization. It's only been around

about 10 to 15 years, but there's been lots of iterations of Métis political entities over

the years. This is the first that has had recognition by the federal government and

also by the provincial government of British Columbia.

4824. We represent Métis people and families who have been here for over 200

years on what was originally called the Pacific slope, pre British Columbia days. And

that includes interests here in this area.

(A38252)


Mr. Gary Ducommun


4825. The Métis history of this area includes a couple of Hudson Bay Company

forts that were built. The first was Fort Simpson that was built in the Prince Rupert

area in the 1830s -- 1831, I believe. And it actually ran until 1954, so it was a fairly

long-lived establishment. And also Fort McLoughlin, which is south of the entrance

of Douglas Channel, nearer to Bella Bella. Fort McLoughlin was built in around

1835. And these were forts that the Métis manned on behalf of the Hudson Bay

Company in these cases.

4826. We've done a lot of research around British Columbia, including this area,

and we know that there was a number of very, I guess, substantive influences by

Métis people and there's a lot of place names along the coast which reflect the Métis

history here and, in fact, Douglas Channel is named for Sir James Douglas, who was

a Métis patriarch. His wife, Lady Emilia, who was a young Métis woman that he

married in Fort St. James, which you'll be at Fort St. James along the way, which is a

Métis community that was built in 1806.

4827. I've got a list of names. I don't think that we need to -- McLoughlin is

another one, Fort McLoughlin that was named after a Métis patriarch. I don't think

we have to get too far into that.

4828. But I guess I've purposely left until now my acknowledgement of the

Haisla people, and normally I would do that at the beginning, but I left it because I

wanted to do, you know, some of those pieces of history before I acknowledge that

the Haisla people have been welcoming Métis for over 180 years into their territory

because we were their trade partners. We were their trade partners before what we

call monias, the white man, in our language, before white man came.

4829. A lot of cases, people don't understand that it was the Métis people who

came here on behalf of the fur trade companies, and not Europeans per se.

4830. So I want to acknowledge the Haislas and their welcoming of us to their

territory to speak today.

4831. I guess, really, what we're after is getting information around the concerns

and the issues. Métis -- one of the things that we've done as part of this process

which we engaged in about -- starting about four years ago -- we were slow out of the

gate, I guess.

4832. There's lots of people that have been involved for 20 or 25 years around

oil pipelines here. But we really looked -- we wanted to look at what, potentially, the

(A38252)


Mr. Gary Ducommun


impacts were to our people and to our people's assertion of rights and traditional land

uses.

4833. And towards that end, we've interviewed quite a number of Métis along

the pipelines. I've talked to, I think, probably hundreds. And, really, it boils down to

harvesting issues and traditional land use issues that can be summed up as food

security.

4834. And I listened yesterday to the Haisla people, and I really -- it always

amazes me how similar First Nations and Métis interests are when it comes to cultural

identity and what we need to maintain our culture.

4835. What our people have told us is we need to maintain access to the sea, to

the sea resources, to the rivers, to the river resources and to the land and the land

resources because Métis culture, similarly to First Nations culture, is based on the

land. And without those accesses or with impacted abilities to access those things, we

are at risk of losing our culture.

4836. And so food security, food security is really -- it's kind of a new catch

phrase, and it's one that I hadn't really heard of much up until about a couple of years

ago. But there's a lot of work that's been done internationally and within Canada to

talk about the effects of removing the security of what's now called country foods, so

foods that you collect off the land or from the sea.

4837. Removing that from Aboriginal people has a number of very detrimental

effects, and the effects are everything from physical health, mental health and they

also include, I guess, loss of cultural identity.

4838. And Métis people, I think more so than First Nations, have suffered a loss

of cultural identity in the last 200 years that a lot of us are trying to -- are trying to

halt that downward slide. And it becomes difficult. And it particularly becomes

difficult when resources that our culture are based on are put at risk.

4839. The fact of the matter is that the pipeline and the marine terminal may be

able to -- and this is the biologist in me speaking. We may be able to design that and

build it and run it in such a manner that there is no spills, and certainly what I've

heard, most of the discussion I've heard is the fear of spills and I think that's -- that

fear is legitimate.

4840. I think also what you've heard and what I've certainly heard yesterday

(A38252)


Mr. Gary Ducommun


from the Haisla is that even though -- even if this project was run without spills,

there's really been no -- no action to assess the cumulative impact of this project on an

already impacted ecosystem.

4841. The Haisla talked a lot about Eurocan and about Alcan and about the

impacts and the fact that some of those impacts, once the activity has not taken place

anymore, become mitigated, if you will, by nature. Nature can -- nature can respond

by healing those kind of damages.

4842. I think one of the concerns that we have is that the project should be

looked at from a cumulative effects perspective because even though it may not --

there may not be a smoking gun in the way of a spill that will destroy Douglas

Channel or destroy Kitimat River, it may well be that the project is the straw on the

horse's back that drives it into the ground. And that's a real problem.

4843. And the real problem is, is that I think in the world view of Aboriginal

peoples and the way it's different from non-Aboriginal people, in the Aboriginal

people's world view, including Métis, we are part of the ecosystem in which we are

placed by the Creator. We're not outside of it. So what happens in that ecosystem

happens to us. It has to affect us.

4844. It's not that we can stand outside and say, okay, we can make some money

if we can -- if we can come to grips with losing that part of our culture that's based on

eulachons. Eulachon is a perfect example.

4845. I'm old enough -- I hate to date myself. And not in the Kitmat River, but

I'm old enough to have been to the eulachon grease pits and seen how eulachon

grease was made back in the '70s. And it's a part of my traditional knowledge that I

agree with the Haisla. My children will never know that and my grandchildren will

never know that.

4846. Eulachons, it's my understanding -- we participate in the species at risk

federally, and it's my understanding that eulachons are being considered for listing

under the Species at Risk Act. And so Enbridge had nothing to do with that, but

eulachons is only one species within this ecosystem that's already been impacted to

the point of potential extinction.

4847. So we have to look at what the cumulative effects of all the projects will

do in this area, and it's one of the things that none of the -- you know, essentially none

of the research has done.

(A38252)


Mr. Gary Ducommun


4848. I guess in closing, Métis Nation B.C. has not decided at this point whether

we support or we don't support the project. It's a decision that will be made at what

we call the Métis Nation Governing Assembly, which will be held in March, a couple

of months from now. And the Métis Nation Governing Assembly is 46 elected Métis

Nation leaders from around British Columbia who meet annually every March and

decide on issues that have the potential to impact the well-being of the nation.

4849. So our -- the decision on whether to approve or not approve hasn't been

made, and it's something that I can't speak to at this point because I am a staff person

of that group. But I definitely am here to say that in all of the interviews that we've

done and all the people that we've talked to, all Métis people express a concern about

what this project may do to their culture, to their way of life, to their ability to access

the foods that they depend upon.

4850. I think I went more than 15 minutes; so I’m going to stop.

4851. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. The Panel has no questions of

clarification. Thank you very much for your presentation.


4852. THE CHAIRPERSON: I next call the Kitimat Valley Naturalists. You

look well prepared. It doesn’t look like you’re going to take too much time to settle.

4853. Are you prepared to proceed?

4854. Ms. Niro, would you please proceed with the swearing and affirming?

DOUGLAS HORWOOD: Sworn

APRIL MacLEOD: Affirmed

WALTER THORNE: Affirmed

4855. MR. THORNE: Honoured Panel, we wish to ask first your permission to

present our PowerPoint presentation. Unfortunately, it was not pre-approved by the

Monday deadline. We ran into unforeseen ferry cancellations with the high winds

and high seas on Hecate Strait for nearly a week. So part of our team, therefore, was

delayed for the best part of a week.

(A38252)

Kitimat Valley Naturalists - Oral presentation

Mr. Thorne/Mr. Horwood/Ms. MacLeod


4856. We did explain this in a letter already on file with the National Energy

Board. It’s actually on the website already. What we’re asking is do we have your

permission to proceed and present our PowerPoint presentation?

4857. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Thorne.

4858. Has Mr. Neufeld had an opportunity to preview this? Mr. Neufeld, do you

have any comments on this?

4859. MR. NEUFELD: I have not reviewed them, but I have discussed with

Board counsel what’s in them and it sounds fine to us. Thank you.

4860. THE CHAIRPERSON: I’ll just check if there’s any other parties in the

room that might have an objection to this.


4861. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. The Panel accepts the late

registration of your PowerPoint presentation. Please proceed.

4862. MR. THORNE: Thank you.

4863. THE CHAIRPERSON: And I need to continue to do my homework,

which I’m not getting good at yet. We need to give it a Visual Aid Number. So we’ll

let Louise -- Ms. Niro do that for us. Thank you.

4864. THE REGULATORY OFFICER: And that will be Visual Aid Number

3.


PowerPoint presentation provided by the Kitimat Valley Naturalists

4865. THE CHAIRPERSON: That just allows everybody to be able to find it

on the website.

--- ORAL PRESENTATION BY/PRÉSENTATION ORALE PAR KITIMAT

VALLEY NATURALISTS:

4866. MR. HORWOOD: We would first like to thank the Haisla Nation for

(A38252)




hosting this hearing. We recognize we are guests on Haisa land and that we are also

on Haisla territory. We would also like to thank the JRP for this opportunity to make

the oral presentation.

4867. Who is the Kitimat Valley Naturalists? We are an independent Kitimat

organization. We’re open to the entire community and we are an active member of

B.C. nature. Our goal as a group is to pursue outdoor nature-oriented recreation.

4868. As a group, we have 40 years of bird and mammal records and research

papers. We have been involved as stream keepers, working closely with Department

of Fisheries and Oceans. And we are also considered by the birding community to be

citizen scientists.

4869. We believe we have little to gain and much to lose from an oil pipeline,

terminus and tanker traffic, and the purpose of this presentation is to show what we

believe we have to -- we stand to lose.

4870. The focus of this whole presentation is the Kitimat River estuary and it is

one of the five largest estuaries on our northern B.C. Coast. It is ranked by Ducks

Unlimited as one of B.C.’s most important estuaries. And to back that up, a technical

report showed it was the top three in total biological and social values.

4871. And so everyone is clear, scientists define an estuary as much more than

just mudflats and meadows. The Kitimat River estuary in fact extends many

kilometres past the inner tidal areas and well into Douglas Channel.

4872. The estuary foreshore is a relatively flat area, and at a distance, its beauty

and importance are difficult to see. Up close, however, things change.

4873. The Kitimat River estuary is 1,230 hectares, and in perspective, that’s

three times larger than Vancouver’s Stanley Park. It is covered in sitka spruce,

western hemlock and deciduous trees, interspersed with lush meadows, slews, ponds

and rivulets.

4874. MS. MacLEOD: Rich, organic soils, packed with nutrients, help create

immense fertile meadows. These meadows and land support the growth of many

native species.

4875. In the spring and summer, it is a wildlife -- wildflower and wildlife

heaven. In early times, the root of the chocolate lily, seen in the insert, was used by

(A38252)




the Haisla and early pioneers as a food source.

4876. Shooting stars are just one of the many wildflowers found in the meadows

of the estuary. Many people, like me, a local native, native natural photographer, I

like to walk around the estuary purely for the floral opportunity of -- floral

photographic opportunities.

4877. The same nutrients that allow flowers to flourish also support a major

outdoor activity, fishing.

4878. MR. THORNE: Fishers from B.C., Alberta and the world come here to

fish. Why? Because Kitimat is really a fishing Mecca.

4879. Kitimat’s river -- the Kitimat River brood stock is amongst the best in the

world. Where else on this planet can you catch a 27-pound steelhead or a 76-pound

Chinook salmon. Elite fly-in fishing lodges located throughout the Douglas Channel

target Kitimat River fish.

4880. The B.C. sports fishing industry yields annual returns in the billions of

dollars. Kitimat’s share in a year is in the millions.

4881. Kitimat is a 10 out of 10 fishing destination. And if you don’t like our

fish, try our prawns. Even celebrities know about this area and come here to fish.

When the Vancouver Canucks arrive, they keep it very secret.

4882. The Kitimat and Douglas Channel river systems have attracted

recreational anglers for decades, starting in the 1950s, as you can see. Some have an

extremely high profile: The Right Honourable Prime Minister John Diefenbaker,

Kevin Costner, the actor, and Carey Price, a B.C. boy, our goalie for the Montreal

Canadiens.

4883. MR. HORWOOD: Hunters as well as fishers depend on the Kitimat

River estuary. Birds, like fish, are attracted to estuaries. The Kitimat River estuary is

a stopover during both the spring and fall migration. Trumpeter swans that nest in

Alaska fly here and stay for the winter.

4884. One of the major groups of migrants are waders, long-legged birds that

generally feed in the shallow waters and mudflats. Over 20 species of this group of

birds use our estuary as a fast-food outlet. They stop, stay for a day or two, then fly

on to as far away as South America.

(A38252)




4885. Twenty (20) years ago, great blue herons were a rare bird at any time of

the year in the Kitimat Valley. This blue-listed bird, meaning an indigenous species

considered vulnerable, has made the Kitimat River estuary its winter refuge. Now

these birds are regularly reported on Christmas bird counts.

4886. Snow geese used to be a rare bird here as well. We now record them

regularly during spring and fall migrations and in flocks sometimes exceeding 500

individuals. This estuary has become a vital link along their migration route.

4887. Typically, many birds desert the estuary during the summer months, but

we still have many species that rely on the estuary trees, meadows and waterways to

raise their young.

4888. One of the most mysterious birds in the world lives here. The marbled

murrelet, a robin-sized seabird thrives in the Douglas Channel system. These birds

feed by day in the rich channel waters, but at nightfall they fly inland to old-growth

trees and locate their saucer-sized nest in complete darkness. No scientist, or anyone

for that matter, knows how they do this.

4889. MR. THORNE: The estuary and Douglas Channel have immense

recreational values. Sailboats, kayaks and power craft all ply the local waterways.

Alaska-bound yachts often divert into Douglas Channel. Why do they come here?

They come here for solitude, pristine wilderness, private beaches that urbanites from

all over Canada can only dream about.

4890. Author John Kimantas predicts Douglas Channel will evolve into a world-

class kayaking destination. He is considered to be the Pacific Coast authority on

kayaking.

4891. We are blessed with a network of Haisla cabins that all visitors are

welcome to use. These two kayakers visit here every year from Alberta. They keep

coming back. Why? They want that wilderness experience.

4892. Within the shelter of Minette Bay, a major part of the estuary, local

recreational events such as dragon boat racing and training take place. We have

several non-commercial hot springs. Anyone can use them at any time of the year.

They’re free.

4893. MR. HORWOOD: Ecotourism on the estuary and throughout the

(A38252)




Douglas Channel system is second to none. It is simply world class. Where else on

the same day can you see three different looking bears on the same day? Lots of

places have black bears, but we have Kermode bears and grizzlies a plenty. They

love our salmon and we enjoy watching them fish.

4894. Orcas regularly visit here in spring but can be seen at any time. Sea lions

come and go with the fish and tides. Seals are always present in the channel, estuary

and even the river. They add character and enjoyment for visitors and locals alike.

4895. But nothing -- absolutely nothing -- beats the sight of a sounding

humpback whale. If we lose our whales, we know we will have lost much more.

4896. So in conclusion, the Kitimat Valley Naturalists believe we need to strike

harmony and balance in our ecosystem here and, as such, we believe the Northern

Gateway is not an acceptable risk. We simply have too much to lose.


4897. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much to all three of you for

your joint presentation. The Panel has no questions of clarification. Thank you.

4898. I know we’ve just come back from lunch, but there’s a couple of things

that the Panel needs to deal with on an organizational basis. So we’re going to take a

20-minute break at this point. And so we’ll come back at 10 to 2:00.

4899. Thank you.

--- Upon recessing at 1:36 p.m./L’audience est suspendue à 13h36

--- Upon resuming at 1:59 p.m. /L’audience est reprise à 13h59

4900. THE CHAIRPERSON: My goodness, a sudden silence has come over

the room; that’s tremendous. Thank you very much, everyone.

4901. So Mr. Halyk, you’re here and seated and ready. Will both of you be

presenting evidence today?

4902. MR. HALYK: No. This is my wife, Linda. She’s just moral support.

4903. THE CHAIRPERSON: Tremendous. Important for all of us.

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4904. MR. HALYK: Thank you.

4905. THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms. Niro, would you please swear in the

witness for us?

RANDY HALYK: Affirmed

4906. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Halyk.

4907. Before we get under way, I know you had submitted a letter to us on the

20th of December and then we had responded back to you on the 5

th of January. And

one of the topics was a video that you were wanting to present as oral evidence. And

in our letter, we requested that it be submitted in advance and in a format that allows

it to be posted on the public registry.

4908. The letter goes on to say:

“The Panel will then be able to determine if it’s necessary to be

shown during the oral evidence portion of the community

hearings.”

4909. Mr. Halyk, we’ve had the opportunity to briefly review your video and the

Panel finds that the nature of your video is not your personal knowledge or personal

experience that fits the oral evidence that we are seeking at this point in the process,

so it doesn’t meet the criteria of oral evidence.

4910. If you want to have this -- if you want the Panel to consider having this

video accepted as written evidence, of course, you’ve missed that deadline, but you’d

be absolutely free to bring a motion to the Panel for consideration of having the video

on the written evidentiary record as a late submission.


4912. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

4913. With that, I’ll let you have your turn.


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--- ORAL PRESENTATION BY/REPRÉSENTATION ORALE PAR MR. RANDY

HALYK:

4916. MR. HALYK: Well, I’m going to start with -- now, this whole thing is

oral evidence and I think, to start off, I need to explain who I am much like the rest of

the intervenors have done here.

4917. I don’t have a lot of history in this part of the world. I’ve been here -- my

wife and I have been here for about four and a half years. We’re new to the

northwest, but we’ve lived in -- I’ve lived in British Columbia all my life and my

wife just a long time.

4918. So what I have to say here is British Columbia is my home. B.C., I’ve -- I

have to say that we are -- I think we’re third or fourth generation in Canada. We

don’t have history thousands of years back in Canada.

4919. My great-great-grandmother moved and -- was offered land in

Saskatchewan and moved out here, a single mother with two sons, and created the

Halyks in North America. We are a large group now. We went to the 100th

anniversary a number of years back and met people from all over North America.

4920. So having said that, we don’t have a long history here, but I just wanted to

be sure that you’re aware that I am a Canadian and I speak from the values of a

Canadian.

4921. My history -- my own history goes back to 1950 when I was born. My

father came back from the war, married my mother, and thus four of us kids were

created. And so our journey in B.C. started where the rest of the family stayed in

Saskatchewan. And in fact, my uncle and my cousin are -- between the two of them

have the biggest farms in Saskatchewan.

4922. We have to go to the next level. Why am I here? Why do I need to speak

to this issue? Half of my life -- virtually half of my life was running a small business

selling sport fishing equipment across the world, but generally in western Canada,

B.C. and Alberta. In those years, I had the opportunity to travel extensively through

all areas of British Columbia and Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario, all over,

down into the U.S., Michigan and places like that, down in California, virtually all of

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the northern States and all of Canada.

4923. I’ve seen -- I’ve seen it all. Well, not necessarily all of it, but I’ve seen a

lot, and I’ve seen the oil scenario on the Prairies and I’ve seen the fishing on the

coast, and I’ve seen the interior with everything that it has to offer. And as a small

businessman, I understand profits, why we have to make profits. We have to do that.

4924. There is a time when you go beyond profits, when you have to look to the

future, you have to look at where -- what you’re doing to make that money to survive.

Do I go beyond the law to make a dollar? No. Do I damage the environment to make

a dollar? Well, you know, I think we all have in our own little ways, maybe changing

the oil and it spills out in the driveway, things like that. I think we’ve all made --

we’ve all damaged the environment. That’s part of life.

4925. But I’ll have to say the concern I have with the Gateway project comes

from my heart and what I’ve learned in my life, and that is that we can only go so far

before we start damaging ourselves and our own psyche and our health. My video

spoke to health concerns, concerns about what happens after an oil spill.

4926. And that is really the key issue here. What does happen after an oil spill?

I’ve not seen that personally. I have not been involved with cleanup. I’ve not been

involved with even being at a place that has a major spill. I’ve seen it on T.V., social

media, which is big, big, big. In fact, I think the social media has changed the way

we think these days.

4927. All of the information that I’ve gathered about this project, this potential

project, comes from a couple of places. Firstly, I joined a group called the CAB, the

Community Advisory Board, for Enbridge back about three years ago or so because I

was interested in discovering what this program -- this opportunity might be for our

community. I spent a lot of time at the Community Advisory Board.

4928. At one point, I actually went -- I was a city Councillor and went to my

Councillors and asked them whether or not they would accept me being -- sitting on

that Board as a Councillor as opposed to just a publics -- private citizen, and they

accepted that. So I went then and changed -- not changed, but I went then as now an

official of the District of Kitimat for a number of months.

4929. I engaged with Enbridge and all of their people. I got to know them. I got

to deal with them on those levels. At first -- I have to be honest. At first, if I hadn’t

of gone I wouldn’t know what I know. The knowledge that I gained by going to that

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Community Advisory Board is just phenomenal. It gave me a grounding to determine

-- to help me determine whether I was in favour or opposed to this project.

4930. Upon reflection after the last meeting that I went to where the question

was asked whether or not the -- Enbridge would sign a letter of agreement saying that

they would give the community advisory board some teeth, some reason to be other

than just to listen to what Enbridge had to say and they said no and they said well,

maybe.

4931. And then individuals came to me and said, "Well, did you hear what's

going on? These foreign groups are paying for people to oppose this thing".

4932. I went to -- I was -- my head was wide open. My mind was wide open to

this whole thing from that point until then, until that point. Then I said this is wrong.

This is absolutely wrong. I am there as a representative of the District of Kitimat and

they have the gall to say that, "Oh, keep on coming, but it doesn't make any difference

because what you say doesn't matter to us".

4933. That is not what a community advisory board is. A community advisory

board, from my point of view, is community, a group of community people advising

the proponent on what's best ways to protect the community.

4934. That is not what this board was and, thus, I had to go to my Council and

say, "I'm sorry, guys; I can't do this anymore. I have integrity, and I will not be used

by a group that would do this without standing up and saying that they will give this

Board some reason to be".

4935. I'm sorry. I should not have gone so far there. I get this -- I get a little bit

upset sometimes with the way things have gone.

4936. I want to speak to the relevance of this whole proposal and how the people

of not just Kitimat, but the people of Canada, feel about this and what -- and how we

-- how I feel that we are being used in this.

4937. You people here have been hired to do a job, and from what I see as an

intervenor and the materials that come my way, I just have more respect for you guys

than anything else. I can't believe that you guys can go through this stuff and not, at

some point, fall asleep on the couch and wonder, "Oh, where did I end?"

4938. In any case, this kind of information that you are gleaning from all of this,

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Mr. Randy Halyk


we are, too. This -- the intervenors here are being dissed right now by our -- the

powers that be. And you guys are being dissed by the powers that be. This cannot

happen.

4939. You're right. I have to change -- you're absolutely right. This is not -- if I

may go on. I'm sorry.

4940. THE CHAIRPERSON: I just remind you that what we're here to hear

about is, you know, your personal knowledge ---

4941. MR. HALYK: Yes.

4942. THE CHAIRPERSON: --- your personal experiences on the impacts

that the proposed project may have on you and your community.

4943. MR. HALYK: Yes, thank you.


4945. MR. HALYK: There is -- my traditional knowledge, my cultural identity,

I think I've explained that to you, what it is. I'm a Canadian, okay.

4946. The evidence that I'm trying to put forward to you at this point is hearsay

evidence in a lot of ways. It's from what citizens can glean from the media, all types

of media. And we, myself and citizens, deal with spin doctors constantly.

4947. You -- and I know that I, as a Councillor, when I was, dealt with lobbyists

constantly. And I imagine you three get it all the time as well. And lobbyists,

lobbyism, whatever you call it, is part of our world. It's part of the world. And we all

live with that. But we have to draw the line at what's right.

4948. And I'm lecturing you guys again. I'm sorry.

4949. You know that bitumen is being processed -- well, it's being dug out of the

ground and turned into this slurry that Enbridge is deciding to move, wanting to move

across the country to us and then out to different places around the world. I've heard

that China will get some. I know that the U.S. is planning to get some in California

and send it on down to the south coast.

4950. Those kinds of things, that's what this is all about. That's what this project

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Mr. Randy Halyk


is about.

4951. THE CHAIRPERSON: And, Mr. Halyk, the proposed project in front of

us is for the pipelines as have been described in the application?

4952. MR. HALYK: M'hm.

4953. THE CHAIRPERSON: So that's the oral evidence that we're interested

in, is your personal experiences and knowledges on the proposed project itself, which

is the two pipelines.

4954. MR. HALYK: Right.

4955. THE CHAIRPERSON: The Panel has ---

4956. MR. HALYK: Thank you. Thank you.

4957. I have extensive information about this through the CAB, through my

investigations over the internet, my readings and so on, and listening to all of the

intervenors and reading all that the intervenors have shown as evidence. And I know

that you, as a Panel, have done the same.

4958. And I think that there has to be -- there has to be consideration for this

potential project. And I know that there are parameters that were set that state that

the only thing that we can talk to is the pipeline between one place and another, and

there is some concern there.

4959. My knowledge, my traditional knowledge says that you need something --

you need some place to get something to pipe it to somewhere. And I would suggest

that we need to look at where this material is coming from as well.

4960. And I know that you have set parameters that state that you don't want to

listen to that; you don't want to hear that, but that is very important to know.

4961. The economic value that is pretended that there is -- there will be -- and

they use the word "person years", which I still quite haven't understood. But I

imagine that's one person working for one year. Now, I imagine a year is 2,000 hours

or so.

4962. THE CHAIRPERSON: Again, Mr. Halyk, if you had questions of the

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Mr. Randy Halyk


evidence that Enbridge has filed, you could ask those questions through the

information request process or in cross-examination when there is a panel here to

answer your questions. We're obviously not able to ---

4963. MR. HALYK: I understand.

4964. THE CHAIRPERSON: --- present any answers as ---

4965. MR. HALYK: I was couching that in a question format, but it wasn't

really a question; it was a statement.

4966. THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

4967. MR. HALYK: I'm sorry.

4968. THE CHAIRPERSON: So what we're looking for is your personal

knowledge, your personal experiences on the impacts that the proposed project may

have on you and your community that couldn't be expressed in writing because this is

the oral evidence section.

4969. MR. HALYK: Well, absolutely.


4971. MR. HALYK: Absolutely.

4972. THE CHAIRPERSON: If you'd like, we could take a break and allow

you to collect your thoughts.

4973. MR. HALYK: No, no, that's fine. I'll just ---

4974. THE CHAIRPERSON: All right.

4975. MR. HALYK: Just bear with me here.

4976. THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, absolutely. Thank you.

4977. MR. HALYK: Just bear with me.

4978. My thoughts -- things that I really can't write down are things like current

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Mr. Randy Halyk


affairs, things that happen day to day that we've witnessed through the media and

other places. I imagine it could be written at some point in time, but things that have

happened yesterday, let's say, and that would happen from the point of time where

you can't take written evidence anymore.

4979. I think that's the kind of thing that needs to be spoken of, the fact that

there's three tankers right now that are spilling in the world today, things like that that

we -- that I don't -- I'm not sure if you're aware of, but things that are on the news

today.

4980. Enbridge had a break in a pipeline yesterday, I believe, and it was

discovered by a helicopter pilot going over the area and seeing bubbles coming out of

the water. Why would Enbridge not have been able to find that with their -- all of

their technology?

4981. Those kinds of things are important to the community to know how

Enbridge -- if -- how Enbridge supports their claims that they will clean up the spill

and can clean up spills.

4982. The health of the people down in Kalamazoo is a really big problem for

everybody concerned. Watching people have seizures and that kind of thing reflects

on Enbridge dramatically as to how -- if they really do have the ability to clean up

and protect the people that their pipelines travel through.

4983. THE CHAIRPERSON: And again, Mr. Halyk, if you had questions of

the Applicant, the cross-examination portion of the final hearings would be the time

to pose those questions to the Applicant, or through the information -- written

information request process.

4984. MR. HALYK: I met a gentleman recently that affected my psyche quite

a bit, an online friend, John Bolenbaugh. He lives in Michigan. His -- you can find

his information on You Tube. It explains a lot of my concerns about -- about the oil

pipeline.

4985. I'm also very aware of the -- what happened back in the day when the

Exxon Valdez spilled its oil and it really affected myself and my family. I remember

my daughter going through this, watching it on the T.V. She as well is very opposed

to this pipeline.

4986. The evidence is clear when it comes to the -- to major spills around the

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world that they can't be cleaned up. We have a freestone river in the Kitimat River.

That means to say that it drops down in elevation quite fast, and the water runs very

fast through there. That's why you have stones. You don't have a meandering stream

through fields, you have a fast-flowing river.

4987. If you drop oil into the top of this river, it will flow down, it will

contaminate between the rocks, under the rocks, where the salmon actually lay their

eggs and it will reach the ocean very, very quickly. And with the things that we've

seen in spills around the world and the timeliness of these spills being recognized as

spills concern me.

4988. When you drop oil into a fast-flowing stream, that oil will flow along with

the watercourse. And not just a small area like Kalamazoo where they had a dam to

stop it, but a whole river system will be affected all the way down.

4989. As a fly fisherman, I tie these little lures that look like -- they look like

bugs, water bugs. They are animals that live in rivers and you put oil in there, you're

not going to get them. I can't imagine how fish could survive in a freestone river with

oil in it.

4990. There -- I can't see any way that you can stop an oil spill with a boom

across a river like the Kitimat River. Even in low water, the water is rushing very,

very fast. There's no way that a boom will stop oil.

4991. If you put dispersants into a river, now you're poisoning even more

potential animals and environment. These are the kinds of things that create a dead

river, a river that we -- the river we have now and the rivers -- I understand there's

hundreds -- 700 rivers that the -- creeks and rivers that are crossed. Seven hundred

(700).

4992. We have one river here that, if a spill happens, a fast-flowing river like

this, we don't have a river anymore, let alone being able to pull water from it to drink.

4993. There's 700 rivers and streams along this course that could be damaged.

Any one of them could be damaged to the point that there's no fish left. The Fraser

River, I believe, is one of those. The most important river in British Columbia. The

Skeena, I believe, is number two. And both of those watersheds are being crossed.

Both of them.

4994. How can we put that into jeopardy? This is -- this is our life. Rivers are

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Mr. Randy Halyk


the lifeblood of the land.

4995. I'm sorry. That, I have to say. I think I've said enough. I really appreciate

-- and I'm sorry that I didn't thank the Haisla for offering us this opportunity. I do

know that they are very concerned about this as well, and I just want to lend my

support to them.

4996. And I thank you, Panel. I thank you very much for listening to me and

putting up with my time here. It was -- it's a little bit different than what I'd hoped to

say.

4997. But I do hope that you, as a Panel, understand that don't listen to the spin.

Don't listen to the spin. Make your choice yourself. This -- it saddens me that -- the

kind of thing that's going on in this -- in the news media right now. Saddens me to a

point where it makes me lose faith in our news reporters.

4998. And I hope that you, as a group, can understand, there's two things you

can do, from my point of view. You can say no to this, 100 percent no. Then you

don't have those people that are spinning. They have no choice; or you can say, well,

we can -- we will agree with this, but under certain conditions. And then they have a

choice. Then they can go to their cabinet and say, well, we're going to have it

anyway.

4999. You have two choices; you say no and they can't come back on you guys,

and you can say, well, under conditions, and then they can.



5001. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Halyk.

5002. This concludes this oral session evidence in Kitamaat Village.

5003. On behalf of the Panel, thank you again to the Haisla Nation for your

welcoming of us over the past two days, for your tremendous hospitality to all of us

in this room, for your accommodation of probably a large population swell in your

village over the daytime hours over the last couple of days. We're very grateful to

you for all that you've done to allow us to hold these hearings here.

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5004. I want to also thank all the intervenors who have spoken with us and, in

addition to that, I want to thank everybody who's been in this room. It's been

tremendous to see people here listening, as the Panel is as well, and for that we thank

you.

5005. So this concludes today's session. Thank you very much.

--- Upon adjourning at 2:32 p.m./L'audience est ajournée à 14h32

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