jules lund - social influencer marketing presentation 2014
DESCRIPTION
Jules shares his insights and experience with Social Influencer Marketing.TRANSCRIPT
Thanks for joining me. This presentation is the product of me asking a lot of questions about Digital Marketing over the last few years, and trying to find the answers. I’m not an expert. I just think too much.
Now this time last year, I gave presentations urging the radio industry to make their digital platforms a higher priority.
These were my slides.
I suggested that Social Media should no longer be used to JUST support radio shows. But rather, treated like their own independent content channels. Because our ONLINE FANS didn’t like being talked to as RADIO LISTENERS. Now this was a controversial statement. And I was nervous saying it.
And yet, just 12months on, rather than Online just amplifying Radio, I’m already answering briefs where RADIO is used solely to amplify Digital Campaigns.
So last year’s message was HOW TO BUILD A TRIBE
H O W TO
B U I L D A T R I B E
At this years conference, it was HOW TO BUILD A BUSINESS
Why?
H O W TO
B U I L D A B U S I N E S S
S O C I A L I N F L U E N C E R M A R K E T I N G
Because over the next couple of years, I believe we’ll see SOCIAL INFLUENCER MARKETING go super-nova.
What do I mean by SOCIAL INFLUENCER MARKETING?
BRANDS and INFLUENCERS teaming up to spread a campaign message.
So who is an influencer?
In traditional media...they’re celebrities.
But in the digital world, they can be anyone with a fan-base.
From the 2yr old daughter of Roxy Jacenko promoting kids products to her 88,000 Instagram Followers.
Or a dog that’s bringing in $15K a month modelling menswear.
But it’s not just individuals.
At SCA, we use our RADIO TEAMS and RADIO BRANDS to amplify campaigns for our commercial partners. In total we have 130 Influencer platforms across the country.Now you might be thinking... “paying a Social Influencer is hardly a new concept. Not only has it been around, but as a serious marketing strategy, it hasn’t really lived up to expectation”
S O C I A L I N F L U E N C E R M A R K E T I N G H A S S TA L L E D
And I would wholeheartedly agree.It seems, here in Australia, just as the industry acknowledged the power of Social Influencers holding the attention of millions upon millions of eyes ...
The momentum stalled.
S E I S M I C S H I F T
3 CO C K- B LO C K S
K E Y TO S U C C E S S
Well, I’ll attempt to explain why.First we’ll look at the SEISMIC SHIFT in the Social Media landscape forcing Influencers to now consider monetising their Social accounts. We’ll then address the 3 major COCK-BLOCKS in achieving that; Obstacles that have done my head in this year. And then I’ll offer some possible solutions. Including the single most important KEY TO GUARANTEE SUCCESS.
1 . S E I S M I C S H I F T
So what is this SIESMIC SHIFT in the Social Media Landscape?
Well sadly, 2014 will be known as the year your FREE MARKETING PLATFORMS changed the game forever. They have well and truly MONETISED.
Let’s start with Facebook.
Last year, I shared the strategies we used on the Fifi & Jules page that made it the most engaged BRAND PAGE in the country. Out of all categories. Not just radio. Seems obvious now, but it revolved around curating the world’s viral content. Pics, clips and memes. These would drive your ENGAGEMENT up. And when it reached fever pitch, we’d hit them with our own generated content.
This strategy ensured our personal content reached millions every week. The secret was QUANTITY.But then something happened. The world caught up. And everyone was SPAMMED. So to protect the user experience, Facebook developed technology that could detect and block memes circulating the internet, and started REWARDING original content. I then spent my time racking my brain as to how I could generate ORIGINAL CONTENT day after day, with a full time breakfast radio gig.
Then I had an idea.I’d hire a full time animator and cartoonist. So that’s what I did. Phil Watson is still with me today. It was PERFECT. I’d come up with the idea, and rather than me having to appear in a pic or clip... Phil would just draw it.
So we split my desk in half at work, and went about animating the world’s biggest stories.Like when Bieber got arrested.
And when Lorde won a Grammy!
Naturally we hashtagged them, to drive people back to the source.
We got 820 likes and 64 shares for our Lorde meme.
Rapper 360 however, got 79,000 likes and 3600 shares for it. 3600!
I got 64. Just from his page, our meme reached over 1.5 million people. Sadly someone cropped out our hashtag.
He ripped it from FasterLouder.
Who ripped it from News.com.au. A ROARING SUCCESS. Just not for us. In fact, across the board, our engagement had never been worse. I thought it was because last year, we had the ENTIRE PLANET creating content for my page, now it was just us.BUT THEN we heard Facebook killed off Edgerank. It’s formula for prioritizing content you enjoy.
Oct '13 Nov Dec Jan '14 Feb
4.04%3.51%
2.97% 2.71%2.11%
12.05%11.58%
8.7%7.7%
6.15%
All PagesPages w/>500k Likes
AVERAGE ORGANIC REACH ON BRAND FACEBOOK PAGES
And replaced it with a new algorithm that changed the game forever.It effectively pinched the hose. And the ORGANIC REACH of every single brand page on the planet started to dry up.
According to Social@Ogilvy engagement dropped to as low as 2%.
So if you have 100 fans... Facebook will ONLY show your post to 2.
So how do you reach more, you ask?
Write Facebook a cheque.The business model we should’ve seen coming. Get almost every brand on the planet falling over themselves to build a tribe. Let then reap rewards unlike anything they’ve ever seen. Get idiots like me travelling the country yelling “A marketing platform where you can reach millions, and for FREE!”
But sadly, it was just your first hit that was free. And now that you’re dependent? Cough up, junkies.People are pissed, screaming... “So I’ve spent thousands in marketing to get page likes! Thousands more to generate the content! And now to get THAT content to THAT audience, I have to pay EVERY SINGLE TIME?!”You know what I say to Mark Zuckerberg?
Absolutely f*cking genius.
It’s like this…
G E N I U S
Imagine Ch 9 spending millions of dollars to create The Block.
They then spend millions of dollars in marketing.
Which works. Because millions of people sit down to watch it.
But all of a sudden the TV SCREEN pipes up and introduces a PAYWALL.
So the only way the content on one side of the screen, reaches the audience on the other side of the screen, is if CHANNEL NINE pays that screen a loads of cash.
That’s just for one program.
Imagine how much that TV screen would make from Ch 9 over it’s entire week.
Add Ch 7, 10 and all the foxtel channels.
Now imagine all the TV and cable channels across 196 countries.
Online it says 15,000 channels, all paying to reach their OWN audience. Shitloads, huh?
Well that is a piss in the ocean my friends.
Because Facebook isn’t limited to TV channels.
Every single brand page on this planet... 21 million of them! Rising a million a month. All paying to reach their OWN audience.
“SHARING PICS, CLIPS, AND ARTICLES WAS QUITE
LABOUR-INTENSIVE, NOW EVERYONE CAN POST WITH
THE TAP OF A BUTTON.”B R I A N B O L A N D
ADS PRODUCT MARKETING TEAM LEADER FACEBOOK
Now Facebook maintain it’s not about money, but user experience. Brian Boland makes a good point.
“SHARING PICS, CLIPS, AND ARTICLES WAS QUITE LABOUR-INTENSIVE, NOW EVERYONE CAN POST WITH THE TAP OF A BUTTON.”
“COLLECTING MORE FRIENDS… LIKING MORE PAGES. 15,000 STORIES COULD APPEAR ANY
TIME YOU LOG IN. SO COMPETITION IS INCREASING.”
“COLLECTING MORE FRIENDS... LIKING MORE PAGES. 15,000 STORIES COULD APPEAR ANY TIME YOU LOG IN. SO COMPETITION IS INCREASING.”
But here’s the kicker. You DON’T HAVE to write Facebook a cheque to reach more than 2%.
At SCA... With over 150 digital natives around the country, living and breathing social strategies, we cut through the noise without paying a lot. In fact we’re thriving in this new landscape. Delivering client posts that reach 50%, 60% even up to 300% of our community size.
We genuinely believe we can get more content, into more newsfeeds than any other publisher in the country, because we’re obsessed with Social Engagement.
Organic engagement isn’t dead.
I reached half a million for a single FB post on my personal page last week.
Social platforms love this. They’ll always reward good content. But for those without the smarts, the scale or the staff, you’ll have to pay.
That’s why Twitter has promoted posts, and their self-serve ad platform.
And their most controversial move, including tweets from people you don’t even follow.
Now Instagram is the hipster of the bunch. And the last thing a hipster wants, is to be like everyone else.
But Facebook bought them, and last month, here in Australia, they started rolling out ads.
Apparently their CEO, is personally reviewing every ad to ensure it looks like a cool Instagram post.
Pinterest, just announced it’s about to start rolling out promoted pins.
Like Insty... treading carefully, and are only inviting a select group of brands.
Snapchat? I read an article recently entitled ‘Snapchat’s complete inability to make money is the reason its worth $800 million.’ But things change rapidly, and last month they announced ADS are on the way.
The irony of ths pic. I found it on Google images.
Now when Whatsapp began... it’s motto was ‘No ads, no games, no gimmicks’. Then FB bought them as well. So another one to join the club.
But there’s also ANOTHER WAY these platforms are making cash.
B I G D A T A
BIG DATA.And it seems we’ve all been swept up in this 21st Century gold-rush. Madly collecting data to sell ADVERTISING more targeted than ever before. As marketers we love how much we can find out about consumers. As consumers, we’re FREAKING out.
But it’s not just the Social platforms tracking your every move.
Raise your hand if you have an iphone? Take it out. Follow me down the rabbit hole.
Go to settings > Privacy > Location Services
Scroll down to System Services > Frequent locations > and have a look at History
On Phil’s phone, I can see exactly WHEN he’s been showing up to work and leaving.Hmmm… 8 - 4pm? Except this day he left just after lunch.Some of you may have already turned off this function. For the rest of you, the detail at which your movements have been recorded is astounding.Apple would argue that’s transparent. But who’s creeped out by that?
C L I V E D I C K E N SD I R E C TO R O F D I G I TA L & I N N O VAT I O N
So what is the happy medium of a data-rich world?Well, Clive Dickens (our Head of Digital) predicts those who wanna remain ANONYMOUS will simply have to write a cheque. Life will be more expensive for them. Whereas those who are happy to share their data, will have a more content-rich experience and at lower costs. I for one, WELCOME IT. For a start, I won’t have to sit through 400 tampon ads during The Bachelor Finale.
Soon my smart TV will detect my phone, and know I’m personally sitting in front of it. It will advertise the new nacho pizza at my LOCAL take-away joint. It’ll feel like commercials in small country towns, saying come down the road.Now HOW DOES IT KNOW I like that Pizza Shop over the others?Because my Location Services RECORDED how many times I’ve been there.
So if that’s their business model. For Influencers, what’s ours?Because for most Brand Pages, these guys are no longer giving your content free-kicks. They want you to pay to reach your fans. Or invest in high-quality content.Either way, it’s a BIG INVESTMENT that EVERYDAY PEOPLE are now assessing.
So how do we recoup the costs? We monetize. YOUTUBE Influencers are all over this. And as you know the blogging world is the fastest growing sector. But the strategy I’ve had most experience with, is a PAY-PER-POST business model. Where BRANDS pay an INFLUENCER to post about them. But it’s not without it’s challenges.
1. L E G A L I M P L I C AT I O N S 2. B E T R AYA L O F T R U S T 3. C O N T E N T V S C O M M E R C E
3 C O C K - B LO C K S
So let’s explore, what’s currently holding people back.Starting with...1. The LEGAL IMPLICATIONS: As new media is still governed by old laws. 2. BETRAYAL OF TRUST: And being seen as a sell-out.3. And the difficult balance between CONTENT vs COMMERCE
1 . L E G A L I M P L I C AT I O N S
So what are the LEGAL RISKS in Social Monetisation?As you know, traditional media is heavily regulated when it comes to Cash for Comment.The most famous case in Australian Radio involved John Laws, Alan Jones and 2UE, fifteen years ago.
ACMA, uncovered $18 million dollars in hidden sponsorships to promote Qantas, Telstra, Foxtel, Optus and so on. The issue was these comments, didn’t sound like ads, they sounded like content.From then on, Lawsie had to ring a cowbell to clearly identify money, exchanging hands.
“ N O A U S T R A L I A N L A W R E Q U I R I N G S O C I A L I N F LU E N C E R S
TO D I S C LO S E PAY M E N T.
B U T I T ’ S O N LY A M AT T E R O F T I M E .”
S T E P H E N V O N M U E N S T E R S O L I C I TO R & AT TO R N E Y
I’ve been working with Stephen Von Muenster, Australia’s leading SOCIAL MEDIA LAWYER, to get clarity on the LEGAL RISKS. Despite strict laws in the US and UK, Stephen says there’s currently NO Australian law requiring Social Influencers to disclose payment. But it’s only a matter of time.
The most famous case is the Kangaroo Island Cash for Tweets controversy. South Australian Tourism came under fire from MediaWatch, for paying celebrities to tweet positive things about Kangaroo Island. I remember when radio mate was asked. He politely declined $500 per tweet. I narrowly escaped the scandal for a different reason.They didn’t f*cking ask me.
S A R A H C O U R T ACCC COMMISSIONER
“ I T H I N K P E R S O N A L I T I E S S H O U L D B E V E R Y
C A R E F U L A B O U T W H AT T H E Y E N D O R S E A N D
H O W T H E Y D O I T.”
So it’s not against the law, unless it’s MISLEADING or DECEPTIVE. If these guys, said they’d been there and hadn’t, they’d be in breach of the Trade Practices Act. For that reason, the ACCC issued a warning: “I think personalities should be very careful about what they endorse and how they do it.”Stephen, our legal gun adds “You’re looking at penalties under the Australian Consumer Law of up to $1.1million per violation. Lots of tweets = lots of violations = big bucks.”
1. B E T R U T H F U L 2. W R I T E T H E M YO U R S E L F 3. E N S U R E T H E B R A N D F I T S 4. D I S C LO S E PAY M E N T
S T E P H E N V O N M U E N S T E R ’ S S U R V I VA L T I P S :
Since there’s a risk, I asked Stephen for his survival tips for paid for posts. HIS TOP 4...1. BE TRUTHFUL: Ensure your post reflects genuine views, opinions or experiences.2. WRITE THEM YOURSELF: Because the risk increases if your post is scripted.3. ENSURE THE BRAND FITS: Kangaroo Island was a bit left-field and hence why ears pricked up. 4. And if you’re still concerned DISCLOSE PAYMENT: Unless you’re a well-known ambassador.
J E N N I F E R L A M LO R R A I N E M U R P H Y S P I R O P I S S A S
blogger blogger • agent vlogger • agent
I was at ‘Social Media Week’ last month, and asked a panel of bloggers, vloggers, and talent-agents for both, if they felt influencers should disclose payment anyway.
It was a resounding YES!
Thought their headshot could flip to reveal a post
with hashtag
#ad #spon #pp #sp
Here’s how they ring the cowbell on their posts:
Now I don’t do this. And I’ll tell you why later. But it leads me to...
2 . B E T R AYA L O F T R U S T
2. BETRAYAL OF TRUST: Our second block.A lot of people are reluctant to monetise their social channels, because they’ll look like a sell-out. They’ve built trust with their tribes, and now they’re profiting from them. I get that. It’s like my mate who kept trying to catch up with me, because he wanted to sell me Herbalife products. You can feel exploited.
LIKELY AUDIENCE OF THE POST
But I only think that’s because it’s NEW.
And it ties back into the legalities, and why I wonder whether full disclosure will ever be enforced. As Stephen pointed out, in order to determine a breach, the ACCC has to take into account the...“likely audience of the post”.
And by the time a law is floated, the ‘likely audience’ will see a BRANDED-POST a mile off.
But “GENERATION LIKE” is far savvier than us. In fact, I’ll take it a step further, not only will young people spot it, but they won’t give a shit. Let alone feel betrayed.
When I grew up, I expected Michael Jackson was getting paid for this.
There was also a time, movie audiences felt exploited with product placement. But my daughters and I see this Subway drink and don’t give a shit.
The Block audiences certainly don’t care.
Everything in the world when you’re born is normal.
Anything invented before you turn thirty is exciting and with any luck
you can make a career out of it.
Anything invented after thirty is against the natural order of things and the beginning of the end of civilization as we know it. It gradually turns out to be alright really.
D O U G L A S A DA M S H I T C H H I K E R S G U I D E TO T H E G A L A X Y
British writer, Douglas Adams, nailed it when he said this: “Everything that’s already in the world when you’re born is just normal. Anything invented before you turn thirty is incredibly exciting and creative, and with any luck you can make a career out of it. Anything that gets invented AFTER you’re thirty, is against the natural order of things, and the beginning of the end of civilization as we know it, until it’s been around for about 10 years when it gradually turns out to be alright really.”
For MediaWatch, Social Monetisation is “the end of civilisation”. But they have to say that, they’re the ABC.But my prediction goes EVEN further... I believe that not only will fans NOT CARE that Influencers profit from them... BUT the biggest focus for a follower, will be how they profit from their own followers.From what I can sense...
T H E L E M O N A D E S TA N D O F T H E F U T U R E I S YO U N G P E O P L E M O N E T I S I N G T H E I R
O W N S O C I A L I N F L U E N C E .
THE LEMONADE STAND OF THE FUTURE IS YOUNG PEOPLE MONETISING THEIR OWN SOCIAL INFLUENCE.
And I stumbled across a documentary that supported this... ‘Generation Like’:
So how can ‘Generation Like’ monetise their social channels?New products pop up all the time. ‘Bubblews’ and ‘Bonzo Me’ both give the users a share of their ad revenue based on how engaging your posts are.
More likes = more dollars.
Tsu.com have created their own social platform and reward content according to how well it engages the community.
And here’s an article from a few weeks back. Indy Clinton’s making thousands in brand-posts, and she’s not even a celebrity. In 2012 MediaWatch VILLAINISED Influencers. Now we celebrate them.Look don’t get me wrong. There are still plenty of followers in 2014 that will accuse you of selling out, but they’ll get over it.
Look at Instagram.
This popped into my feed last month, announcing Promoted Posts.
It’s received 7800 comments.
Most of which would be negative.
But then look here. 106,000 likes!
The safest way to avoid the hecklers? Get the BALANCE RIGHT. Which leads me to...
Our 3rd block... CONTENT vs COMMERCEThe holy grail. Getting that perfect balance between ENTERTAINMENT and MARKETING MESSAGE.And here’s the big secret you and I already know... It’s REALLY FUCKING HARD. I tell Influencers...“If you don’t get the balance right, two parties lose...
C O N T E N T V S C O M M E R C E
C O N T E N T V S C O M M E R C E
And one of those parties is ALWAYS YOU.”
O V E R - P R OT E C T I V E B R A N D S First lesson was that brands can be over-protective.
As we know, up until a few years ago, every message released by a brand was micromanaged. Then Social Media came along.
A L L O F A S U D D E N A B R A N D W A S N O LO N G E R W H AT T H E Y S A I D I T W A S .
B U T W H AT C O N S U M E R S S A I D I T W A S TO E A C H
OT H E R .All of a sudden a BRAND was no longer what they said it was. But what consumers said it was to each other. A lot of brands are having unprecedented success demonstrating trust in consumers. For instance, 99% of Apple, Lego and even Tourism Australia’s online content is created by fans. Armies of advocates creating noise for free. In radio, we do this quite well with our own Social Super-Fans. But it’s SCARY for brands. And understandably, they’re not all ready to hand over the keys.
Sadly this year, the success of countless social campaigns have been suffocated because the client entered my conversation - with my followers - and forced me to speak in a different language.
Everyone loses.
Another difficulty I’ve had, is convincing the industry that SOCIAL has a completely different language to Traditional Media. High-production value in SOCIAL doesn’t necessarily equal engagement. It can actually work best looking amateur and authentic. I studied Graphic Design, Photography, Film-making and in the early days, I would bust the balls of my Gen-Y digital producers, because their pics were not lit properly, graphics were amateur, filming was shaky. But their stuff would go off! Just look at shitty memes.
R O U G H B U T A U T H E N T I C
If it’s TV, radio, digital or print… Agencies should produce it. But when it comes to SOCIAL, my followers expect me to make the content. And that’s exactly what I pitch to Berocca. They came to me with this great campaign, their TVC was awesome. And they asked me to appear in a beautifully shot video of a typically big day of mine. And share it to my tribe. I said, why don’t I just film real events on my iPhone as they happen, and stitch them together. It’ll be raw BUT authentic. So we sent them a mock.
We went back and forth for a few weeks. Should it look more like the TVC, with SPIT and POLISH?Or is the RAW ENERGY what makes it resonate.Long story short, we split the diff, and everyone seemed happy.But the SOONER we allow SOCIAL to have it’s own style, and stop measuring it against Traditional views, THE QUICKER we’ll find a SOCIAL audience.
B R A N D M ATC H
But at the end of the day, the single most important factor in guaranteeing success in Social Influencer Marketing is BRAND MATCH.
When Influencers team up with a brand that fits, a brand that they already endorse as a consumer, those cock-blocks dissolve.
My kids and I love Luna Park. When they approached me to join forces, I said of course, because here’s the KEY...They weren’t buying my love, they were asking me to simply mention it.
So I posted this.
LEGAL RISK? Nup, it’s truthful. Written by me.BETRAYAL OF TRUST? No. Its consistent with what they expect from me. Good balance of CONTENT VS COMMERCE? Yep. Luna Park gave me creative control. So I used my own voice.
L E G A L R I S K ?
B E T R AYA L O F T R U S T ?
C O N T E N T V S C O M M E R C E ?
Another one, fashion brand... T.M.Lewin.
I was happy to show off their suits with a brandtag. Together we reached a million people in virtually minutes, because they trusted me.
I also have a great partnership with JETSTAR. They wanted punters to enter a competition online where they re-created childhood holiday snaps. My tribe loved this. THE KEY for both a BRAND and an INFLUENCER is to spend more energy in the SELECTION phase. To save time and tension not having to change each other. In the past month, I’ve said no to a tyre company wanting me to post on Instagram. And a bank, asking for tweets.
It’s just not worth the cash. Because there’s an abundance of brands AND Influencers that organically fit. I started listing all the brands I use in a day. I opened my wardrobe and gave up.
There are thousands of brands I’ve paid money for. There’s no more authentic endorsement than that.
I P H O N EW E AT H E R A P PN E W S . C O M . A UD A I LY M A I L A P PD O V E S O A PM I L K S H A M P O OG - S TA RI N D U S T R I EC K W ATC HR AY B A N S
S I M O N W E S T J E W E L L E RM Y E R
B O N D SB O S E H E A D P H O N E S
C A N O N C A M E R AM I L K S H A M P O O
S A N D I S KM A C B O O K A I R
5 . 4 C R U M P L E R B A G
C A R M A N ’ S M U E S L I L I P TO N T E A
S O C I A L M O N E T I S A T I O N
So let’s sum it all up. SOCIAL INFLUENCER MARKETING has stalled in this country, and I believe these 3 blocks are reasons why: Influencers are unsure of the legal implications, they don’t want to look like a sell-out and branded content is difficult to get right. But because the organic reach has been stemmed by the major platforms, Influencers will have to invest more time and money to reach fans, and will TURN to monetization.
Opening up an exciting new world of Social Influencer Marketing that I believe has enormous value. Here’s 9 reasons why.
1. Because people connect with people. Not logos. As Suzuki’s National Head of Marketing, Andrew Moore said best “No one wants to socialize with a car brand. They want to socialize with the Influencers having a ball in one.” 2. Brands enter a conversation based on trust. The value is not just about getting your product in front of people, it’s getting your product REFERRED TO THEM by someone they admire.
3. Unlike Traditional Media, where you hire a face - Social Influencers are Content Generators. They are EXPERTS on what their particular Tribe loves. 4. Therefore, your brand message will always be delivered in a completely UNIQUE and PERSONALISED way. 5. Platforms like Instagram are incredibly strict with brands they let advertise. Teaming up with an Influencer is guaranteed way to get around this, and stand out.
6. Reach is cheap. 7. Reach is measurable. 8. Reach is immediate. The speed of distribution allows brands to create hype, with a sudden burst. 9. And finally, Influencers can provide the finishing touches on a broader campaign. When Curtis Stone or Jen Hawkins post a pic of the hilarious billboard... it adds credibility, intimacy and appears more viral.
We’re super-proud of our growth at SCA. Having 6 of the Top 10 FB pages for engagement across the country. And being branded by Online Circle ‘Australia’s Most Socially Engaged Media Company bar none’.
So naturally, we would love to invite your brands into that conversation.
But proving that I’m dedicated to the category as a whole.Soon I’ll have a free resource for marketers. A simple to use Search Engine for Social Influencers across FB, Twitter, Instagram & Youtube, featuring their Tribe Size and Engagement.
If you’re keen to hear more, have any questions or want to share this presso… I’d love to hear from you.Hit me up on LinkedIn or Twitter: @juleslund
Thanks again.