Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 11 SEPTEMBER 1917

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

i020 State Produce Agency Bill. lCOUNCIL] ·wages Bill.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

TUESDAY, 11 SEPTEMBER, 1917.

The PRESIDENT (Hon. W. Hamilton) took the chair at half-pasl 3 o'clock.

P.\PER.

The folkv:ing paper was l-aid on the table, and ordered to be printed:-

Rfguiations, dated 24th Augu.'t, 1917, under the Discharged Soldiers' Settle-ment

Wages Bill. [ll SEPTEMBER.] Wages Bill. 1021

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: A very good authority, too. On the occasion to which I refer I quoted E.'arl Grey as saying, "Just as we have evolved from slavery to serfdom, and from eerfdom to the wage system, so we are evolving from the wag

1022 TVa;res Bill. [COUNCIL.] Popular Initiathe, Etc., Bill.

The workvork."

That clamo was acceptable to this Chamber on a pre,-ious occasion. It is recognised by most p(;cple now that wa7,es should be a fir.,t charge on any industry.

Hon. B. F AHEY : So they are.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: They . arc under this Bill.

Hon. A. G. C. HAWTHOR:\: Under the Insolvencv Act they are to a certain extent, too.

The SECRETARY FOR ~HNES: Were you ever stranded with a ba·d cheque? If you hn,Ye had that experience vou would know that sometim~s wages have ~ot been a li"t charge; but this Bill gives that protec-tion to th2 worker. In years gone by many 1non enga~ed in droving for long trips, and i:hey receJVod one cheque for three months or six months' wages; there were no monthly paymout· \Vhen they pre, cntod the cheque to !he bank they found it wa' no good. and they had ;>it•g influence. but the speech of the hon. gentleman did not ha ·e that influence on me. "'' I think. on the whole. whatever might be said about the merits of the speech generally, that it was not a dull speech, at any rate.

The S-•'RETARY FOR Mr:.rES: I hope it con-tributed towards your rpcovery.

Ho:.r. P. ,f. LEAHY: \VPll, that is pos-sible, a.nd it might not be a bad objcd.

The SECRETARY FOR :\1:rKES : \V e wer•• all very sorry to hc•ar you \\'er.! ill.

Hox. P. J. LEAHY: Thanks vury much. The hon. gentleman started out to give us a litHe disquisition on the \"lOrd "popular." It has been ,,,aid that a rore b· .. · anv other name won] d have the same fragt:ance; and I suppose, if the word " popular" were elimi-nated, it would not make a bit of differPncn to th• Bill. I think the word " popular" is onl:v put in to have an effect on the public, as it reallv has no effect on the Bill at all. The M:ini;ter has said, what we all admit, that it is a verY important mea.sure, and he told us, too, that it 1\·ould give the people sovereign power, and a number of other things. There can be no doubt that it is a verJ important meaoure. I think I can say also that, if hon. members of this Chamber believed that the Bill in its present form "1\8'8 perfe~t, we have sufficient confidence in the people of QuPensland not to oppose it on the second reading, nor to make more than nPcessarv amendments in Committee; but 1 do not· think that the Bill is by any

Popnlar Initiatit·e [ll SEPTEMBER.] and R~fm·endum Bill. 1023

means perfect. The stand which most of us have taken up in this Chamber-the stand I have taken up, certainly-is that, if a Bill comes to us which is not altogether bad, and whiC'h there is ::;ome hope of amending or improving, thn wisest course is to pas"< the second reading in the hope that we can improve the measure i,n Committee. \Ye

1024 Popular Initiative !COUNCIL.] and Referendum Bill.

un~er. the laws of the country, I should be .dehghced to support him because I think ·d~ink is a great evil. But 'what I am dealing With at the present time are the statements made by the GoYernment and pretty wpiJ al_l th~ members of their party that this Bdl wil_l afford to th~ people an opportunity !~ T d',',ride on 6 o clock cJo,ing. I say

l'\.o. . TherP. arA so many dela:·s that would be mevitable m the event of the Bill becom-ing law that it would probably be eighteen months before a poll could be taken, and w~ all hope that long before then the war will have come to an end, and, inasmuch as It has been looked upon as a war measure the reason for it will then have passed: Sc; that we may make up our minds that the ~dl we a~e comidering ought to be con-sidered qmte apart from any poll for the oarly closing of hotels.

Now, I want to touch on some of the Minister's statement:-. He says in one place-

" In other words, the motive of the Government is to trust the people to the fullest possible extent."

Doe~ this Bill trust the people to the fullest possible extent? I ask the ::'11inister if he has. no~ made a statement to this Chamber wh10h 1s not accurate? Does this Bill give the. people !tny control over financial matters. wh10h adn11ttedly are the most important of all matters that can be dealt with?

The SECRETARY FOR :Y1INES: Legislatively.

.fi?N. P . • T. ~EAHY: Then how can the lV.umster s-::v It trusts the people to the fullest possibl_e ~xtent? Doe,J this Bill em-. bo~y t~e. prm01ple known as the recall-wl1lch. 1f It w0re in exi;tence at the present moment, would cause a petition for the recall of the whole of the members of the Govern-ment?

Hon A. \i. C. HAWTHORN: Could vou in-trodnc a B1!J to abolish the Assembly.?

HoN. P. J. LEXHY: I do not know. They may _look. llJ?Dn that aq a financial matter. This B11l 111 reality does not trust th0. veople .at all in the really vital things. ~t .rs on!:.. mtendcd to convey the idea that It IS .trustmg the people, and all the time it reframs from trusting them in the things that really matter.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : It gives the people great power.

. Hox. P. J. LE 'tHY: I will admit that it gives them greater powers tho.n they possess at. preoent, but I am dealing with the :Yim1ster's statement that it trusts them to the fullest extent-something which it does not do.

1 Th, SECRETARY rGR MIXES : In matters of

.er.:ns_la-~Ion, . not, of cour.:;o, in matters Df admn;nstratJon .. It would be impracticable to submit all details of administration to the people.

HoN. P. .T. LEAHY: Is it a detail to ~:'f'lld £700,000 without parliamentary autho-nty?

Hon. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: A mere detail.

Hox. P. J. LEAHY: Which has been

Popular Initiative [ ll SEPTEMBER. J and Rejerend11m Bill. 1025

her at all, because she has written a lot of poetry which deals with matters of paec;i'on, and sentiment· a.nd love, and a,ll tha.t kind of thing. O~e of hf'r books is entitled "Poems of Passion," and I am rather sur-prised that a grave man like the Minister should quote any poetry by Miss Ella. \Yheeler Wilcox.

Hon. A. G. C. HAWTHORX: A little non-sense nu'>v a,nd then--"

HoN. P. J. LEAHY: Perhaps that is it. One of the things I can remember written by her is something "hich appealed to me be-cause at the time I was living a.t Thargu-mindah-an opal district. It dea.lt with "The Birth of the Opal," which, according to her theorv, was caused bv the union of the moon-beam' and the sunbeam. I suppose that, if the Minister was allowed to quote twenty lines of poetry. I may be allowed to quote eight, and I mention these as a, fair sample of the poetry she. wrote. It goes something like this-

" The sunbeam loved the moonbeam, And followed her low and high,

But the moonbeam fled, and hid her head;

She was so shy, so shy, The snngod lovPd with ardour;

Oh! he was a lover bold, And his heart was on fire with mad

desire For the. moonbeam pale and cold."

Hon. E. W. H. FowLEs : Moonbeam or moonshine?

HoN. P. J. LEAHY: It ma.v be moon-shine, but tha.t is a specimen of the poetry she has turned out by the ream, and that is the authority the Minister quoted on social-ism. Through the whole range of poets and poetf'~ses, I do not think he could have selected any poet or poetess less competent to giY0 an opinion on socialism than Miss Ella Wheeler \Vikox.

The SgcRETARY FOR Mrc-ms : A very good onp all the same.

Ho". P. J. LEAHY: I could go on. In another poem-written, I suppose, of som·e amorous individual-he might be a single member of the Labour party far anything I knov. -she says-" And I will have you, and hold you, and

press you, Though the >~hole world should say me nay."

I suppC'

1026 Popular Initiative [COUNCIL.] and Referendum Btll.

that those who do not vote· should be regarded as having cast their votes m the affirmative?

HoN. P. J. LEAHY: I do not. I am speaking now Ls a democrat. If the Minister is a sociali,t, I suppose I may claim to be a democrat. I ha,·e as much right, and perhaps more right, to claim that than the hon. gentleman has to claim the other. I hold that it is not democratic to permit a fr-action of the people of Queensland to carry legislation. There ought to be some provision in the Bill that a certain percent-age of the eleeors of the State should vote. othenYise thP referendum would not be effr

Popular Initiative [ll SEPTE~IBER.] and RejeJ·endum Bill 1027

Ltion. FDr example, a change in the military sy,tem of the country after it had been w0rkcd out in detail by the Federal Parliament was placed before the cDuntry for apprDval or rejection, and the country decid0d to accept it. If. then, we adopt the referendum, we shall, if we are wise, adopt it as a veto pD\W'l' Dver measures prepared and worked out by Parliament."

He goes on to say-

" It is true that the initiative, an insti-tution under which a bod,- of voters mav propose a Bill and get it put before the people, exist; in Switzerland, but it has bee'! comparative1y little need, and is in rcahty hm·-dly more than an inDperative curiosity of the Constitution. 'l:n America, in one State, no doubt the initiative has been used, but ccrtainlv not as a -development of the referendum, for in truth it is the very Dpposite of tht referendum. So far from it being found nece·-sarv to have the initiative if you have the ;eferenduu, two American States, Georgia and Virginia, which maHy years ago adopted the initiative, n ft,or a short perio-d, durino- which re-C'Our::-, • 1Nas never had to thi~ device, re~ penkJ tho conetitutional clau,es under whieh it was established.''

Tl:is ". ritcr goes on to 'oa~ that, afte" being tn0d 111 reYcral of the StatC''3, the nrese11t tendency i .. to' do away with th" rc·f

1028 Popular I nitiatwe [COUNCIL.] emd RejG,-endum Bill.

extricate thP caucus at the other end of this building from the horns of a dilemma and for other purposes." The first purpose it is intended to serve is to attach to this Council the responsibility of retarding its further pro-gress. Should this Council in its wisdom come to the conclusion that it should pass this Bill, I am in favour of amending it; or, on the contrary, should a majority of the members of this Council come to the conclu-sion that they should oppose this unattain-able. extravagant, and clums~· Bill, the Coun-cil will be only adding another bay to the laurels that already deck the history of the "Cppcr House. The next purpose it is in-tended to serve, in my estimation, is to rehabilitate the members of the caucus in the good graces of their several constituents, who have lost all confidence in their capacity and honc>,tv of purpose, of which they have had ample" and emphatic proof conveyed to them from every quarter of this country in tlw overwhelming and unexampled majorities oast against their efforts to dismember the Constitution-than which there is no better to be found on the face of the earth to-day-by abolishing this Constitution and Liberty-guarding branch of the Legislature. My hon. friend the Minister, I see, laughs, but the hon. gentleman cannot deny that he and his colleagues and the caucus have had proof of it brought to their unwilling senses as plain as, a new sun in a cloudless sky.

The SECRIJTARY FOR MINES : I was thinking of the High Court decision.

HoN. B. F.\HEY: The High Court decision does not affect the position of this House convincingly indicated by the verdict of ;viay last. I would sooner obey and respect the verdict of the Full Court of this State, comprising men equal, if not superior, in legal knowll'dge to any member of the tribunal that gave the decision-not against the constitutional stability of this Council, but against the contention of certain mem-. bers of the public that the present Govern-ment could not constitutionally bring this Council before the country with a view to it~ abolition. Another rf'ason, in my estima-tion, whv this Bill has been framed and used as ea kit~ to mislead and mystify the pcopl", whose confidence they have forfeited, is this: The political fire •and Bill-makimr enthusiasm of the parliamentary novice's who sit behind the GoYernmont in another place and rule the roast in caucus have been completely exhau,ted by the rapid pace of the pRst two se·,sions. vV e all know that ::'\ature abhor, a vacuum. This Bill ha

Popular Initwtive, Etc., Bill. [11 SEPTEMBER.] Regulation of Suaar, Etc., Bill. 1029

instances are recorded in the history of Tderendum in Switzerland which are excep-tions to its success.

Then the hon. gentleman went across the Pacific to America. He quoted States there which had adopted the referendum in sup· port of his contention. I think that when he did ihat he must have had his tongue in his cheek-I do not "ish to be offensive to the hon. gentleman, and I hope he does not think I do. It is true that some of the minor States in America have adopted the prin-ciple, but they did not adopt it from choice. They did it of dire necessitv. They were IilC!laced bv two evils and chose the lesser. 'Their represenh1tives in Parliament receive only annual pittance, and the wealthy syndicate'' of the United States, whose ten-tacles extend from one end of that, country to th'' other, minor and major States in-cluded, n•ry soon di,rovered that those repre-sentati' ,~s \vere not at all aver:c.e to "graft." The cute people of those States, realising '.dlJ.t mPnaced their interests, took the matter into their own hands, checked the corrupting influence of the syndicates, and prevented full play to the mercenary proclivities of ~hen :nembers, by pr?viding that all Bills mvolvmg matters of Importance should be referred to them. And the referendum is never employed by those States which have adopted it otherwise than when the measures im·olv0 important, or comparativelv impor-·tant, proposals. ·

Now why did the hon. member and his colleagup,, and the caucus-of course we know right well that the caucus is 'their motive power-there' is no doubt of it or the Cabinet would not have sent an ill-cor{sidered Bill of this kind before this House or before the countrv-why did the" introduce it? It cannot ;md could not possiblv be mad~ to appl;v to a country like Queensland. Would 1t not be more consonant with the ', when they observe the activi-ties of the country suspended and prevented from addinO' to the progress of the country, why do th~y not do their duty in seeing that the activities of the country are not paralysed, in seei~g- that. the utiliti:s o~ t~e country, the admimst~atwn of. whr.ch. IS 111 th8ir hunds are not hmdered m th1s Illegal manner? I£ they gave the'e things con-sideration, the probabilities are that tJ:e Government would have the courage of then convictions; but this is a Bill which, nev~r proceeded from the Government. Th1s Bill proceeded from caucus, and the object of the caucus would be frustrated if they did their duty courageou•ly. I am not in favou!C of defeatin"' this Bill on its second readmg. I think the worst use that this or any House can make of a Bill is to throw it out. I say that the Bill should be amended-sensib_ly amended-and, if those from whom the ~Ill proceeds are not prepared to accep~ sensible amendments which would be conduCive to the welfare of the country. then the responsi· bilitv is with them. I shall support the motion for the second reading.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS : Hear, hear!

Question-That the Bill be now read a second time-put and passed.

The SECRETARY FOR :MINES: I beg to move-That the committal of the Bill stand an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

HoN. P. J. LEAHY: I do not intend. to oppose the motion. I know that puttmg down the Committee stage for to-~orr~w does not necessarily mean that the Bill ~Ill come on to-morrow; but it is a very Im-pOJ·tant measure, and, as other hon. meJ:!l· hers and I have indicated. amendments w1ll be necessary, which it will take so'?e E:z;o to prepare, and it would. not be fa1r to us to take the Bill in Committee to-morrow. I would like the "'iinister to promise that the Bill will not be brought on before Tuesday.

Question put and passed.

REG'CLATION OF S'CGAR CA~E PRICES ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

FIRST READDrG.

On the motion of the SECRETARY FOR MINES, this Bill, received by message from the Assembly, w :1s rea·d. a first time.

The second reading was made on Order of the Day for to-morrow.

lion. A. J. Jones.]

1030 Quest'ons. [ASSEMBLY.]

ADJOURNMENT. The SECRETARY FOR MINES: I beg

to mo>e--That the Council do now adjourn. To·morrow being private members' day, the first business will be the resumption of the debate on the Hon. Mr. Leahy's motion. The first Government Bu>iness will be the Opticians Bill in Committee, after which we "ill take the second reading of the Regula-tion of Sugar C;cne Prices Act Amendment Bill.

Question put and passed. The Council adjourned at two minutes past

5 o'clock.

Questwns. ·