Moving Beyond Moving Beyond Procedure: Developing Procedure: Developing

teaching through dialogue teaching through dialogue in Barking and Dagenhamin Barking and Dagenham

David Reedy David Reedy President UKLAPresident UKLAPrincipal Adviser Primary Schools Principal Adviser Primary Schools Barking and Dagenham Local AuthorityBarking and Dagenham Local Authoritydavid.reedy@lbbd.gov.uk

AcknowledgementsAcknowledgements

Nikki GambleNikki Gamble

Marks Gate Infant SchoolMarks Gate Infant School

Godwin Primary SchoolGodwin Primary School

Rush Green Junior SchoolRush Green Junior School

Manor Junior SchoolManor Junior School

St Vincent’s Primary SchoolSt Vincent’s Primary School

Northbury Infant and Junior SchoolsNorthbury Infant and Junior Schools

Beam Primary SchoolBeam Primary School

It is in the talk between teacher and pupil that It is in the talk between teacher and pupil that education is done or fails to be done’ Edwards education is done or fails to be done’ Edwards and Mercer (1987)and Mercer (1987)

A bit of historyA bit of history

The Barking and Dagenham pedagogy The Barking and Dagenham pedagogy ‘Interactive Whole Class Teaching’‘Interactive Whole Class Teaching’

1996 onwards1996 onwards

Blackboard/screen

Win

dow

Door

OHP

Barking and DagenhamBarking and Dagenham

Pioneering workPioneering work Keeping the class togetherKeeping the class together

Working as a social unitWorking as a social unit Working together on challenging Working together on challenging

minimum standardsminimum standards Focus on spoken languageFocus on spoken language

audibilityaudibility listeninglistening vocabularyvocabulary dialogue rather than recitationdialogue rather than recitation visual cueingvisual cueing Episodic lesson structuresEpisodic lesson structures

Teaching through dialogue projectsTeaching through dialogue projects Partially successful in establishing the concept of Partially successful in establishing the concept of

dialogic teachingdialogic teaching Difficult to capture on filmDifficult to capture on film Some success in changing classroom practiceSome success in changing classroom practice Importance of dissemination more widely with and Importance of dissemination more widely with and

beyond the LAbeyond the LA

Where have we come from? Where have we come from? Research backgroundResearch background

Robin AlexanderRobin Alexander Neil MercerNeil Mercer Martin NystrandMartin Nystrand

Culture and Pedagogy: international comparisons in primary education

©2000 Robin Alexander

Blackwell

The five types of teaching talkThe five types of teaching talk

The repertoireThe repertoire RoteRote RecitationRecitation ExpositionExposition DiscussionDiscussion DialogueDialogue

What do we mean by dialogue?What do we mean by dialogue?

In monologue, classroom talk is closely controlled by the In monologue, classroom talk is closely controlled by the teacher, with the aim of transmitting knowledge which teacher, with the aim of transmitting knowledge which students are required to remember. Dialogically organised students are required to remember. Dialogically organised instruction, on the other hand, is based on a different kind of instruction, on the other hand, is based on a different kind of relationship between teacher and students, in which students relationship between teacher and students, in which students are asked to think, not simply to remember. are asked to think, not simply to remember.

i.e. teaching which treats students not as empty vessels to be i.e. teaching which treats students not as empty vessels to be filled with received wisdom by the teacher, but as competent filled with received wisdom by the teacher, but as competent thinkers in their own right. thinkers in their own right.

‘‘Conversations with cognitive challenge’Conversations with cognitive challenge’

Based on the work of Robin AlexanderBased on the work of Robin Alexander

Principles and characteristics of dialogic Principles and characteristics of dialogic talktalk

Achieving common understanding through structured and Achieving common understanding through structured and cumulative cumulative questioning and discussion. There may, or may questioning and discussion. There may, or may not, be a right answer but justification and explanation are not, be a right answer but justification and explanation are sought.sought.

Pupils’ thinking is challenged and so understanding is Pupils’ thinking is challenged and so understanding is enhanced. The teacher is likely to share several exchanges enhanced. The teacher is likely to share several exchanges with a particular child several times in order with a particular child several times in order to move the to move the thinking on.thinking on.

The pupil’s response is the fulcrum of the exchange. The pupil’s response is the fulcrum of the exchange. ‘‘Conversations with cognitive challenge’Conversations with cognitive challenge’

Robin Alexander (2000)Robin Alexander (2000)

Moving from recitation to Moving from recitation to dialoguedialogue

RecitationRecitation Based on known or partially Based on known or partially

known factsknown facts Recalling rather than thinking Recalling rather than thinking

throughthrough Relatively boring to listen toRelatively boring to listen to BriefBrief May involve responses from May involve responses from

lots of childrenlots of children Fails to develop thinking and Fails to develop thinking and

reasoningreasoning

Dialogue involvesDialogue involves Background of fairly deep Background of fairly deep

knowledge or experienceknowledge or experience Thinking out loudThinking out loud A requirement for A requirement for

justification/explanationjustification/explanation Interested listenersInterested listeners Sustained with individual Sustained with individual

children and includes children and includes challengechallenge

Aimed at improving thinking Aimed at improving thinking and reasoningand reasoning

The pupil’s response is the The pupil’s response is the fulcrum of the exchangefulcrum of the exchange

Martyn Nystand’s researchMartyn Nystand’s research

Nystrand et al (2003) Nystrand et al (2003)

‘ ‘ the most common purpose for classroom discourse was to the most common purpose for classroom discourse was to recall and display assigned information to report on what was recall and display assigned information to report on what was already known.’(p.139already known.’(p.139))

… … even though there is a strong and statistically significant even though there is a strong and statistically significant association between student achievement and the extent to association between student achievement and the extent to which classroom discourse which classroom discourse moved awaymoved away from recitation to from recitation to classroom discourse that recruited and highlighted student classroom discourse that recruited and highlighted student ideas and voices as indicated by :ideas and voices as indicated by :

proportion of authentic teacher questions;proportion of authentic teacher questions; extent of uptake, for example follow up questions;extent of uptake, for example follow up questions; time devoted to discussion.time devoted to discussion.

Discussion had a particularly large effect, especially striking Discussion had a particularly large effect, especially striking because there was so little of it.because there was so little of it.

Martyn Nystrand ( cont )Martyn Nystrand ( cont )

In his review of research in 2006 he repeated In his review of research in 2006 he repeated the importance of these indicators, defining the importance of these indicators, defining them as them as discourse movesdiscourse moves which led to a shift in which led to a shift in classroom talk into cognitively challenging classroom talk into cognitively challenging dialoguedialogue

‘‘Discourse moves’Discourse moves’

This shift is encouraged in classrooms when:This shift is encouraged in classrooms when: the teacher asks more authentic questions,the teacher asks more authentic questions, the teacher responds to the content of the pupil’s the teacher responds to the content of the pupil’s

answer when replying (‘uptake’)answer when replying (‘uptake’) pupils have opportunities to ask questions,pupils have opportunities to ask questions, there is time devoted to discussionthere is time devoted to discussion

‘‘student questions had the strongest effect of all’.student questions had the strongest effect of all’.

Teaching talk: our initial Teaching talk: our initial questionsquestions

How can classroom cultures where IRE How can classroom cultures where IRE exchanges dominate be changed?exchanges dominate be changed?

How can we best support and develop How can we best support and develop teachers’ understanding of effective teachers’ understanding of effective teaching/learning talk?teaching/learning talk?

Working with teachersWorking with teachers

Practitioner researchPractitioner research Supported by researchersSupported by researchers Sustained workSustained work Whole school/individual teachersWhole school/individual teachers

Audio recordingAudio recording Video recordingVideo recording TranscriptsTranscripts Teachers’ annotations of transcriptsTeachers’ annotations of transcripts Focus group discussionsFocus group discussions Team teachingTeam teaching Reading Reading Researcher involvementResearcher involvement

Discussing transcriptsDiscussing transcripts

What evidence is there that the child has What evidence is there that the child has learned something?learned something?

How could I have moved learning on more How could I have moved learning on more effectively?effectively?

What would have been a better thing to have What would have been a better thing to have said at xx point?said at xx point?

Phase 1: Getting GoingPhase 1: Getting Going

Considering the research and practical Considering the research and practical implications arising.implications arising.

Trying things out with my pupils at this Trying things out with my pupils at this moment in time.moment in time.

Videoing/Transcribing short stretches of Videoing/Transcribing short stretches of lessons to share with trusted colleagueslessons to share with trusted colleagues

Setting goals for self improvementSetting goals for self improvement

Starting points:Starting points:Teacher /pupil talkTeacher /pupil talk

Did my opening question/comment give rise to Did my opening question/comment give rise to thoughtful extended answers rather than simple thoughtful extended answers rather than simple recall?recall?

Did I repeat the children’s answers?Did I repeat the children’s answers? Did I respond to the pupil’s answer and build a Did I respond to the pupil’s answer and build a

conversation over 2 or more exchanges?conversation over 2 or more exchanges? Where my responses a mixture of questions Where my responses a mixture of questions

comments and statements, some of which were comments and statements, some of which were designed to challenge pupil’s thinking?designed to challenge pupil’s thinking?

Did the pupil’s talk show that their thinking had Did the pupil’s talk show that their thinking had moved on?moved on?

Learning from transcripts: Sue in Learning from transcripts: Sue in ReceptionReception

Read the Read the Red Ripe StrawberryRed Ripe Strawberry transcript and transcript and consider what Sue said about what she had consider what Sue said about what she had learned from the transcript and the discussion learned from the transcript and the discussion with colleagues.with colleagues.

Sue:

Teon: Sue:Teon:Sue:Teon:SueTeon:Sue:Teon:Sue:Teon:Sue:Teon:Sue:Teon:

The mouse has disguised himself that means he has changed the way he looks. What is the mouse doing now, Teon?He is cutting the berry.Why do you think he is doing that?He is doing it ‘cos he wants to.Why does he want to?Maybe he wants to eat it?So do you cut your apples when you eat them?(laughs) No – course not, but maybe he is cutting it to make it smallerWhy would he do that?So it would be easier to eat! If its too big he can’t fit the pieces in his mouth.Yes that’s right, are there any other reasons why he could be cutting it?No – only to make it smaller.What about the fruit time – sometimes we cut the fruit……to share it!Yes he could be sharing the fruit.No I think he is too hungry and wants to eat it himself.

Sue says:Sue says:This was such an important moment for me. I This was such an important moment for me. I had an answer in my head that the mouse was had an answer in my head that the mouse was cutting up the fruit so he could share it. I cutting up the fruit so he could share it. I realised afterwards that every question I asked realised afterwards that every question I asked Teon was trying to get him to say that. His Teon was trying to get him to say that. His responses showed that he had as good an idea responses showed that he had as good an idea about that as I did, if not better, that the mouse about that as I did, if not better, that the mouse was small the fruit was big so in order to eat it was small the fruit was big so in order to eat it he had to cut it up.he had to cut it up.I have learnt that although I thought I was I have learnt that although I thought I was asking more open ended questions I still had a asking more open ended questions I still had a set answer I wanted to hear.set answer I wanted to hear.

Phase two: Phase two: Grappling with the difficult part of Grappling with the difficult part of establishing dialogue; A case studyestablishing dialogue; A case study

Simmi S.Simmi S.Year 5 TeacherYear 5 Teacher

Manor Junior School Manor Junior School BarkingBarking

The planning for dialogue process : Moving The planning for dialogue process : Moving beyond procedurebeyond procedure

1.1. Reflecting on the way teachers/practitioners talk to Reflecting on the way teachers/practitioners talk to pupils. Considering and implementing the ‘skills pupils. Considering and implementing the ‘skills and ground rules’ for developing more interaction, and ground rules’ for developing more interaction, helping all pupils find the time to think and their helping all pupils find the time to think and their classroom voice, extending utterances through classroom voice, extending utterances through reasoning and justification, the teachers probing and reasoning and justification, the teachers probing and promptingprompting

2.2. Moving beyond procedure into process and Moving beyond procedure into process and reflecting on pedagogy.reflecting on pedagogy.

Simmi says:Simmi says:

Before working with Nikki the strength of the school Before working with Nikki the strength of the school was partner work and so on but I was curious to know was partner work and so on but I was curious to know how to extend the children’s S&L.how to extend the children’s S&L.

I thought I probably knew most of it, but when I got I thought I probably knew most of it, but when I got into it I found that I didn’t. I didn’t focus on one into it I found that I didn’t. I didn’t focus on one child, get them to think deeper – that made me think child, get them to think deeper – that made me think deeperdeeper

Simmi says:Simmi says:

Its not just the talk, its what the talk represents.Its not just the talk, its what the talk represents.I had to listen much more.I had to listen much more.All I am usually thinking is focussing on the All I am usually thinking is focussing on the

structure, getting through the parts.structure, getting through the parts.I need to listen to what they are saying rather I need to listen to what they are saying rather

than sticking to the lesson plan.than sticking to the lesson plan.

Simmi says:Simmi says:

My class were quite quiet. I needed to put into My class were quite quiet. I needed to put into place the strategies for involvement and ensure place the strategies for involvement and ensure that all the children talked to each other in that all the children talked to each other in productive ways.productive ways.

The developmental CPD process The developmental CPD process for Simmifor Simmi

Step 1Step 1 Start with the skills and ground rules. What Start with the skills and ground rules. What

makes a good speaker and a good listener?makes a good speaker and a good listener? What are effective contexts and strategies for What are effective contexts and strategies for

getting pupils to talk to each other in a getting pupils to talk to each other in a productive way?productive way?

Phase two: Phase two: Grappling with the difficult bitGrappling with the difficult bit

Professor Robin Alexander’s review of the Professor Robin Alexander’s review of the first year of the Barking and Dagenham first year of the Barking and Dagenham ‘Teaching Through Dialogue’ initiative ‘Teaching Through Dialogue’ initiative (TTDI)(TTDI)

PRINCIPLES OF DIALOGIC TEACHING

COLLECTIVEWe address learning tasks together, whether as a group or a class

RECIPROCALWe listen to each other, share ideas and consider alternative viewpoints

SUPPORTIVEWe articulate ideas freely, without fear of embarrassment over ‘wrong’ answers,

and we help each other to reach common understandings

CUMULATIVEWe build on our own and each other’s ideas,

and chain them into coherent lines of thinking and enquiry

PURPOSEFULTalk is planned and steered with specific educational goals in view

The developmental CPD processThe developmental CPD process Part 2 : The hard bit: ‘But if the talk engages yet leads Part 2 : The hard bit: ‘But if the talk engages yet leads

nowhere, its appeal will soon diminish.’ (Alexander nowhere, its appeal will soon diminish.’ (Alexander 2005) 2005)

The challenge is to move from exploring ideas in The challenge is to move from exploring ideas in pairs/small groups to really listening and deciding on pairs/small groups to really listening and deciding on what the most profitable thing to do or say to move what the most profitable thing to do or say to move learning on, keeping in mind the lesson objectives, learning on, keeping in mind the lesson objectives, not simply rehearsing in the plenary what was said in not simply rehearsing in the plenary what was said in the discussion.the discussion.

To ‘look listen and decide where to take it’.To ‘look listen and decide where to take it’.

The importance of anticipation and The importance of anticipation and teacher listeningteacher listening

Teacher forming a view and anticipating pupil Teacher forming a view and anticipating pupil responses before the lessonresponses before the lesson

Teacher listening hard as pupils explore – not Teacher listening hard as pupils explore – not interupting but listening for a prevailing point interupting but listening for a prevailing point of view, misconceptions, leaning points, etc to of view, misconceptions, leaning points, etc to inform the plenaryinform the plenary

Simmi says:Simmi says:

The most difficult part is the dialogic part – The most difficult part is the dialogic part – what DO you pursue, both the theme and the what DO you pursue, both the theme and the pupil?pupil?

I want to make it challenging for them rather I want to make it challenging for them rather than just get through the lessonthan just get through the lesson

I am getting them to think now rather than I am getting them to think now rather than spoon feeding.spoon feeding.

PRINCIPLES OF DIALOGIC TEACHING

COLLECTIVEWe address learning tasks together, whether as a group or a class

RECIPROCALWe listen to each other, share ideas and consider alternative viewpoints

SUPPORTIVEWe articulate ideas freely, without fear of embarrassment over ‘wrong’ answers,

and we help each other to reach common understandings

CUMULATIVEWe build on our own and each other’s ideas,

and chain them into coherent lines of thinking and enquiry

PURPOSEFULTalk is planned and steered with specific educational goals in view

Implications for professional Implications for professional developmentdevelopment

The professionalism of teachers is paramount; taking The professionalism of teachers is paramount; taking responsibility for engaging with both pedagogical and responsibility for engaging with both pedagogical and content knowledge and being allowed to do so by content knowledge and being allowed to do so by policy makers and leadership teams.policy makers and leadership teams.

The willingness to take risks and the time to The willingness to take risks and the time to experimentexperiment

The encouragement of a disposition to carry on when The encouragement of a disposition to carry on when things get tough. This is the most significant factor things get tough. This is the most significant factor determining those that achieve an epiphanydetermining those that achieve an epiphany

ReflectionsReflections A shift in focus from the pupil to the teacherA shift in focus from the pupil to the teacher A move from participation and skills to process and A move from participation and skills to process and

pedagogypedagogy The importance of listening for teachers as well as The importance of listening for teachers as well as

pupilspupils Deep reflection on timely interventionDeep reflection on timely intervention A critical perspective on the role of adults in the A critical perspective on the role of adults in the

classroomclassroom Consideration of language development and the vital Consideration of language development and the vital

role it plays in learningrole it plays in learning

The transferability of experience (for pupils The transferability of experience (for pupils and teachers)and teachers)

Using pupil voice to inform professional Using pupil voice to inform professional developmentdevelopment

Impact on social learning and the maturity of Impact on social learning and the maturity of pupils of all agespupils of all ages

Concluding thoughtsConcluding thoughts Teachers planning should include grapping with the ideas they Teachers planning should include grapping with the ideas they

will be presenting to their students – otherwise how will they will be presenting to their students – otherwise how will they know how to challenge their pupil’s thinking and move it on?know how to challenge their pupil’s thinking and move it on?

It is a mistake to go straight to outcomes. The planning of the It is a mistake to go straight to outcomes. The planning of the possibilities of content and its impact on teaching and learning possibilities of content and its impact on teaching and learning talk has to be engaged with first.talk has to be engaged with first.

The move from looking to the ‘experts’ for validation to a The move from looking to the ‘experts’ for validation to a more egalitarian community of enquirymore egalitarian community of enquiry

Sustained collaborative work over time between researchers, Sustained collaborative work over time between researchers, advisers, teachers and schools.advisers, teachers and schools.

Focus on developing pedagogy and subject knowledge – you Focus on developing pedagogy and subject knowledge – you cannot have effective teaching without both.cannot have effective teaching without both.

While ‘’what has been learned?’’ is an important While ‘’what has been learned?’’ is an important question for the educator, addressing the question question for the educator, addressing the question ‘’what is available to be learned?’’ broadens out ‘’what is available to be learned?’’ broadens out the landscape to be explored and offers a much the landscape to be explored and offers a much

more generative from which to understand more generative from which to understand

student learning.’student learning.’ ( Kathy Hall 2010) ( Kathy Hall 2010)