phone call transcription between apple, fbi and the courts

8/19/2019 Phone Call Transcription between Apple, FBI and the courts

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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

CENTRAL DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA - EASTERN DIVISION

HONORABLE SHERI PYM, U.S. MAGISTRATE JUDGE

IN THE MATTER OF THE SEARCH ) EDCM 16-10-SPOF AN APPLE IPHONE SEIZED DURING )THE EXECUTION OF A SEARCH ) WARRANT ON A BLACK LEXUS IS300, )CALIFORNIA LICENSE PLATE 35KGD203 ) ) ) ) __________________________________)

REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL PROCEEDINGS MONDAY, MARCH 21, 2016

4:00 P.M.RIVERSIDE, CALIFORNIA

__________________________________________________________ ADELE C. FRAZIER, CSR 9690, CRR, RMR

FEDERAL OFFI CI AL COURT REPORTER3470 TWELFTH STREET

RI VERSI DE, CALI FORNI A 92501ADELEFRAZI ERCSR@GMAI L. COM


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mailto:[email protected]:[email protected]


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APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:

FOR APPLICANT UNITED STATES OF AMERICA:

EI LEEN M. DECKER UNI TED STATES ATTORNEY

BY: TRACY L. WI LKI SONPATRI CI A DONAHUEAssi st ant Uni t ed St at es At t or neys

1500 Uni t ed St ates Cour t house312 Nort h Spr i ng St r eetLos Angel es, Cal i f or ni a 90012Sant a Moni ca, Cal i f or ni a 90405( Tel ephoni c Appear ances. )

FOR APPLE, INC.:

GI BSON, DUNN & CRUTCHERBY: THEODORE J . BOUTROUS, J R. NI COLA T. HANNA

ERI C D. VANDEVELDE333 Sout h Gr and AvenueLos Angel es, Cal i f or ni a 90071- 3197

andZWI LLGEN, PLLCBY: MARC J . ZWI LLI NGER1900 M St r eet NW, Sui t e 250Washi ngt on, D. C. 20036( Tel ephoni c Appear ances. )

Also Present Telephonically:

BRUCE SEWELL, Appl e I nc.NOREEN KRALL, Appl e, I nc.


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RI VERSI DE, CALI FORNI A; MONDAY, MARCH 21, 2016

4: 00 P. M.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Cal l i ng 5: 16- cm- 00010- SP,

Uni t ed St at es of Amer i ca vs. I n t he Mat t er of t he Sear ch of

an Appl e i Phone Sei zed Dur i ng t he Execut i on of a Sear ch

War r ant . Counsel , pl ease st at e your appear ances f or t he

r ecor d.

MS. WI LKI SON: Hi . Good af t ernoon, your Honor .

Tr acy Wi l ki son and Pat t i Donahue on behal f of t he Uni t ed

St at es.

THE COURT: Good af t er noon.

MR. BOUTROUS: Good af t ernoon, your Honor . Thi s i s

Theodor e Bout r ous f or Appl e, and I ' m j oi ned by Ni c Hanna,

Er i c Vandevel de, Mar k Zwi l l i nger , Br uce Sewel l , and Nor een

Kr al l .

THE COURT: Good af t er noon t o al l of you. So I

have seen t he ex par t e appl i cat i on f or a cont i nuance f i l ed by

t he Government t hi s af t ernoon and have r ead t hat . And so, I

guess, l et me ask f i r st - - wel l , l et me ask f i r st I ' d l i ke t o

hear f r om Appl e i f you know your posi t i on wi t h r espect t o

t hi s.

MR. BOUTROUS: Thank you, your Honor . Thi s i s

Theodor e Bout r ous. We have had a chance now t o t hi nk t hi s

f or about an hour , and we, obvi ousl y, def er t o how t he Cour t

woul d l i ke t o pr oceed. We woul d not obj ect t o t he hear i ng


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bei ng post poned and moved because - - and we r equest t hat t he

Cour t vacat e the or der t hat was ent er ed ex par t e.

I f t he Cour t wi l l r ecal l , i n t he or der - - i n t he ex

par t e appl i cat i on t he Gover nment r epr esent ed t hat t he

assi st ance sought coul d onl y be pr ovi ded by Appl e. And Agent

Pl uhar ' s decl ar at i on at par agr aph 4 sai d t hat - - t est i f i ed

t hat he' d expl ored ot her means, and the Gover nment had been

unabl e to i dent i f y any ot her met hods f easi bl e f or gai ni ng

access. So t he order was based on good cause. And we,

r espect f ul l y, submi t t hat t her e no l onger i s good cause.

And t he or der i t sel f has been used by t he

Gover nment t o suggest t hat Appl e has been, you know,

basi cal l y, f l out i ng a cour t or der when we, r espect f ul l y, have

not . And so we woul d pr opose t hat t he Cour t vacat e t he

or der . And t hen i f t he Gover nment , af t er i t does addi t i onal

t est i ng, want s t o come back and r ef i l e - - I t hi nk t her e' s a

way we woul dn' t have t o r ebr i ef t hi ngs. But t her e coul d be a

suppl ement decl ar at i on f r om Agent Pl uhar . We coul d r espond

t o that , and t hen we coul d pi ck up wher e we l ef t of f .

But we, r espect f ul l y, r equest t hat t he Cour t vacat e

t he or der at t hi s poi nt based on t hi s new i nf or mat i on, whi ch

nul l i f i es t he necessi t y ar gument and evi dence t hat had been

r el i ed on by t he Government and t hat f ormed a pr edi cate f or

t he or der .

THE COURT: Al l r i ght . Let me.


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MS. WI LKI SON: Your Honor , t hi s i s Tr acy - -

THE COURT: Yes. I was goi ng t o ask t o hear f r om

you, Ms. Wi l ki nson.

MS. WI LKI SON: Thank you, your Honor . Sorr y. Your

Honor , t he Gover nment ' s number one pr i or i t y t hr oughout t hi s

ent i r e i nvest i gat i on has al ways been t o gai n access i nt o t he

phone and we sought as a mat t er of necessi t y and not of

choi ce. That sai d, we have been wor ki ng t i r el essl y dur i ng

t hi s ent i r e t i me t o see i f t her e' s anot her way t o do t hi s,

but I don' t t hi nk we' r e t her e yet . We onl y l ear ned about

t hi s possi bi l i t y t oday, t hi s mor ni ng, about t hi s possi bi l i t y

t hat Appl e i s not necessary. And we have a good f ai t h basi s

at t hi s poi nt i n or der t o br i ng i t up. Ther e have been a l ot

of peopl e who have r eached out t o us dur i ng t hi s l i t i gat i on

wi t h pr oposed al t ernat e methods, and one by one t hey have

f ai l ed f or one r eason or t he ot her . And we haven' t , you

know, - - t her e' s j ust no r eason t o go i nt o t hose.

But at t hi s poi nt we have, at l east , a good f ai t h

basi s t hat i t wi l l wor k. The pr obl em i s we don' t know f or

sur e. And whi l e - - i f i t ' s val i dat ed, t he Cour t coul d t hen

vacat e t he or der . I t hi nk we ar e r eal l y pr emat ur e t o vacat e

t he Cour t ' s or der at t hi s poi nt because t her e' s al so t he

possi bi l i t y t hat i t wi l l not wor k. I t hi nk we shoul d j ust

gi ve t he exper t s t he t i me t hat t hey need t o test i t and l et

us r epor t back t o t he cour t . But l et ' s not - - I t hi nk i t ' s


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pr emat ur e t o j ust vacat e t he or der at t hi s poi nt .

THE COURT: Wel l , l et me say - - and I ' l l hear

f ur t her f r om counsel i f you l i ke - - I don' t - - I mean, t o

some extent whet her t he or der i s vacat ed or not I t hi nk i s - -

you know, I ' m not sur e how much of a pr act i cal di f f er ence

t hat makes her e because t he or der i s ef f ect i vel y, sor t of ,

hel d i n l i mbo or st ayed at t hi s poi nt pendi ng t hi s br i ef i ng.

I cer t ai nl y don' t t hi nk, l et me j ust comment , t hat Appl e' s

been f l out i ng t he or der . The or der , essent i al l y - - i t

i sn' t - - pendi ng a f i nal deci s i on, t here' s not real l y - - i t ' s

not i n a st age t hat i t coul d be enf or ced at t hi s poi nt .

So, you know, I ' m not - - t o some ext ent I ' m not

sur e how much di f f erence i t makes whether t he order i s

vacat ed at t hi s poi nt or not , because i f i t t ur ns out , af t er

expl or i ng t hi s possi bi l i t y, t hat t he FBI bel i eves i t won' t

wor k, you know, I woul d be i ncl i ned t o go f orwar d wi t hout

r eal l y - - and t her e mi ght need t o be some addi t i onal

br i ef i ng, suppl ement al submi ssi ons, wi t h r espect t o t hi s

ef f or t , but I t hi nk t he mat t er ' s been f ul l y br i ef ed. So I

t hi nk i t woul d be - - whet her t he or der ' s vacat ed or not , I

t hi nk i t woul d be ef f ect i vel y hear d i n t he same f ashi on.

So t hat ' s wher e I ' m - - I under st and Appl e' s

posi t i on. I ' m not sur e - - you know, at t hi s poi nt t he

quest i on of t he necessi t y of Appl e' s assi st ance i s sti l l , i t

seems t o me, up i n t he ai r . So I guess t hat ' s what I ' m, sort


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of , st r uggl i ng wi t h wi t h t hi s r equest i s deci di ng whet her i t

ei t her makes sense to vacat e t he or der and, i f I do, whet her

t hat r eal l y makes a pr act i cal di f f er ence her e at t hi s

poi nt .

MR. BOUTROUS: Your Honor , t hi s i s Mr . Bout r ous

agai n. We appr eci at e t hat . And i f t he Cour t wer e t o - - t he

Cour t j ust , essent i al l y, di d make i t cl ear - - somehow make

cl ear i n an or der t hat - - i f t he Cour t deci des t o post pone

t he hear i ng, t hat t he or der i s not enf or ceabl e, t hat i t ' s

st ayed, and t hat t he necessi t y i ssue i s up i n t he ai r , t hat

woul d ser ve, I t hi nk, gr eat pur poses.

And I can' t exagger at e t o you how - - t he

per cept i on, some of whi ch I t hi nk has been r ei nf or ced by the

Government i n t hei r br i ef , t hat t he company has been somehow

doi ng somet hi ng wr ong. I n f act , t hey f i l ed a mot i on t o

compel , as t he Cour t wi l l r emember . And so i t i s a ser i ous

t hi ng when a company i s accused of t hat .

So i f t he Cour t coul d make t hat cl ear i n what ever

or der t he Cour t i ssues r egar di ng t he hear i ng, t hat , I t hi nk,

woul d go a l ong way t o addressi ng our concern. And t hen we

agr ee t hat i f a suppl ement al decl ar at i on - - i f t he Gover nment

deci des t hey st i l l need t o go f or war d, and t hen we woul d, of

cour se - - and I guess a br i ef or somet hi ng t o expl ai n why

t hey have a basi s f or l i f t i ng t he st ay. And t hen, obvi ousl y,

Appl e woul d want t he oppor t uni t y t o make t he suppl ement al


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submi ssi on. And t hen i f we have a hear i ng, t hi s woul d, of

cour se, t hen be par t of t he evi dent i ar y hear i ng t hat we woul d

have i f we al l get t oget her at some poi nt i n t he f ut ur e.

THE COURT: Al l r i ght . Ms. Wi l ki son, any r esponse

to that?

MS. WI LKI SON: Wel l , onl y t o say t hat t he

Gover nment has r eal l y onl y been i nt er est ed i n t r yi ng t o get

i nt o t hi s phone and has done al l of i t s f i l i ngs and al l of

i t s wor k her e i n an ef f or t t o get i nt o t hi s phone and not

sayi ng anyt hi ng nef ar i ous about Appl e. Thi s i s si mpl y f ai r

l i t i gat i on as we go f or war d i n t r yi ng t o sor t t hi s i ssue

t hr ough. And so because t here i s now a decent quest i on about

t he necessi t y of Appl e' s assi st ance, I t hi nk j ust vacat i ng

t he hear i ng, l et t i ng us expl or e i t , and t hen we' l l f i l e a

st at us r epor t as i ndi cated i n t he or der and we can go f or war d

f rom t here.

MR. BOUTROUS: Your Honor , t hi s i s - -

THE COURT: I ' m sor r y.

MR. BOUTROUS: Your Honor , i f I coul d j ust add - - I

di dn' t mean t o i nt er r upt , but - - I r espect Ms. Wi l ki son

gr eat l y and t he of f i ce gr eat l y, but j ust on page 2 of t hei r

r epl y and opposi t i on br i ef t hey decl ar e Apple's rhetoric is

not only false, but is corrosive of the very instititions

that are best able to safeguard our liberty and our rights.

I t ' s t hose ki nd of st at ement s t hat , i f you ar e a company,


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l aw- abi di ng, good cor por at e ci t i zen, t hose ki nd of t hi ngs i n

a publ i c r ecor d f r om t he Uni t ed St at es based on an or der t hat

i s now shown t hat one of t he key component s of t he order , t he

necessi t y pr ong, i s up i n t he ai r , I woul d r equest t hat t he

Cour t do somet hi ng al ong t he l i nes I suggest ed ear l i er . I t

woul d be gr eat l y appr eci at ed.

THE COURT: Al l r i ght . Wel l , Mr . Bout r ous - -

MS. WI LKI SON: Your Honor .

THE COURT: Let me j ust say t hat t hi s i sn' t - - I ' m

not goi ng t o t ake si des her e i n t er ms of who i s - - wel l , l et

me j ust say t hat i t seems t o me t hat - - you know, a f ai r

amount of t he - - t he br i ef i ng i n t hi s case, as I ment i oned

l ast week, has been excel l ent , but I t hi nk t her e' s been

mul t i pl e audi ences t hat have been consi der ed i n l i t i gat i ng

t hi s case. I under st and t her e ar e publ i c pol i cy

consi der at i ons her e and t hat ' s par t of what ' s at st ake.

That sai d, I am i ncl i ned t o grant t he Government ' s

r equest t o, essent i al l y, vacat e t he hear i ng dat e at t hi s

poi nt and al l ow i t t o f i l e a stat us r epor t . But I wi l l - -

under st andi ng Appl e' s posi t i on her e that now t hat t he

necessi t y el ement i s up i n t he ai r , I woul d be i ncl i ned t o

j ust i ncl ude some l anguage t hat , i n ef f ect , make cl ear t hat

at t hi s poi nt t he or der t hat was ent er ed i s unenf or ceabl e and

i s st ayed.

I , f r ankl y, t hi nk i t ef f ect i vel y has been


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t hr oughout , you know, t he cour se of br i ef i ng her e. I can

make t hat cl ear . I don' t see any pr ej udi ce t o t he Gover nment

i n doi ng t hat , and I t hi nk that i s an accur at e st at ement of

wher e t hi ngs st and.

MR. BOUTROUS: Thank you ver y much, your Honor .

THE COURT: But I ' m happy t o hear - - I know t he

pr oposal her e i s t hat t he Gover nment f i l e a st at us r epor t by

Apr i l 5t h. Does t hat dat e make sense f or bot h si des?

MR. BOUTROUS: Your Honor , yes. Thi s i s

Mr . Bout r ous. That makes sense. Once we see t he st atus

r epor t , i f we have t hought s about what we thi nk t he next st ep

shoul d be, we can submi t t hose, and t hen t he Cour t coul d

deci de what cour se t o t ake.

THE COURT: That ' s f i ne. I mean, i t may be i f by

Apr i l 5t h t he par t i es ar e i n agr eement about somet hi ng, you

can j ust submi t t hat . Agai n, i f you' d l i ke t o set up a cal l

at any t i me about t hat , I ' m happy t o do t hat i f t hat ' s

easi er .

MS. WI LKI SON: That ' s f i ne, your Honor .

MR. BOUTROUS: Yes. That ' s f i ne. Thank you, your

Honor .

THE COURT: Al l r i ght . So I ' l l or der , essent i al l y,

t hat a st at us r epor t be f i l ed by Apr i l 5t h, but , agai n, t hat

can t ake var i ous f or ms i f i t t ur ns out t hat , f or exampl e, by

t hat dat e t he FBI det er mi nes i t doesn' t need t hi s order and


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t he par t i es want t o j ust submi t somet hi ng pr oposi ng a

r esol ut i on. Ot her wi se, t he st at us repor t woul d be f i ne on

Apr i l 5t h. And t hen - - and t hen we' l l j ust go f r om t her e.

MR. BOUTROUS: Thank you, your Honor .

MS. WI LKI SON: Thank you.

THE COURT: Al l r i ght . Thank you al l . I s t here

anyt hi ng el se t hat we need t o t ake up t oday, t hen?

MS. WI LKI SON: Not on behal f of t he Government .

MR. BOUTROUS: Nothi ng f r om Appl e.

THE COURT: Al l r i ght . Thank you al l . I ' l l

i ssue - - I ' l l i ssue j ust a br i ef mi nut e or der , but you can

assume - - I mean, t hi s i s t he or der , t hat t he hear i ng

t omor r ow wi l l be vacat ed. So, hopef ul l y, t he wor d woul d get

out as we were expect i ng a f ew peopl e t o show up f or t hat .

MR. BOUTROUS: I have a f eel i ng i t wi l l .

THE COURT: Al l r i ght . Thank you al l .

MR. BOUTROUS: Thank you, your Honor .

MS. WI LKI SON: Thank you, your Honor .

( Proceedi ngs Concl uded. )


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CERTI FI CATE OF OFFI CI AL REPORTER

I , ADELE C. FRAZI ER, FEDERAL OFFI CI AL REALTI ME

COURT REPORTER, I N AND FOR THE UNTI ED STATES DI STRI CT COURT

FOR THE CENTRAL DI STRI CT OF CALI FORNI A, DO HEREBY CERTI FY

THAT PURSUANT TO SECTI ON 753, TI TLE 28, UNI TED STATES CODE

THAT THE FOREGOI NG I S A TRUE AND CORRECT TRANSCRI PT OF THE

STENOGRAPHI CALLY REPORTED PROCEEDI NGS HELD I N THE

ABOVE- ENTI TLED MATTER AND THAT THE TRANSCI PT PAGE FORMAT I S

I N CONFORMANCE WI TH THE REGULATI ONS OF THE J UDI CI AL

CONFERENCE OF THE UNI TED STATES.

DATED THI S 22nd DAY OF MARCH, 2016

/ S/ ADELE C. FRAZI ER

________________________________________

ADELE C. FRAZI ER, CSR No. 9690, CRR, RMR

FEDERAL OFFI CI AL COURT REPORTER


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phone call transcription between apple, fbi and the courts

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