--\

Our next speaker is of thqhrysler Motor

performancafrom -an OEM ----

G p o r a t h who will

Frank received his bachelor of science and chemistry from

Michigan Technological University out in Michigan. He received

his master's in management from Central Michigan University.

His career experience includes fifteen years with the Ford

Motor Company in various material engineering positions.

Including over eight years with engine coolant responsibility.

He spent five years with American Motors in the fuels and

lubricants departments, again responsible for coolant

performance requirements.

He is now with Chrysler Motors in the fuels and lubricants

group and again responsible for coolant p&fonnance

requirements.

Frank is a member of ASTM Committee D15 on engine

coolants, Committee D2 on petroleum products and he is the

chairman of the engine coolant subcommittee.

-. With that I would like to present Frank Duffy.

“We provide them with this information in the owner’s

manual: Selection of coolant - use only a high quality ethylene glycol base antifreeze coolant with a silicate

inhibitor, such as Mopar, Prestone 11, Peak, or antifreeze

containing the aluguard 340-2 inhibitor system. Failure to use

proper antifreeze could cause radiator plugging and engine

overheating.

alone, or alcohol based antifreeze products.

Do not mix antifreeze brands or use plain water

It has been recognized from the start that some sort of

general corrosion protection is needed. So, we have the

corrosion test in glassware, the simulated service test, which

basically screen out coolants that are not suitable for further

evaluation. Just Dassina a alassware tesi doesn‘t mean that it

will Drovi.de the Drotection to the enaine and the coolinq

svstem that we need.

The subject of this meeting is the recycling of engine

coolant.

for the conservation of resources.

well. Merelv removinq the susDended matter from the liauid bv

filtration and addina a suDplementa1 additive that may not be

balanced to the formulation beins recvcled. will not

necessarily provide the formulation needed to Drotect all

aspects of a modern coolina system. Also, the dissolved

solids, are not removed by filtration. If they were it would

be very easy to get rid of the l ab . Replacing the coolant at

Recycling of engine coolant presents an opportunity

But the job must be done

the recommended intervals which for Chrysler vehicles is 3 6

months or 52,500 miles initially, and 2 4 months or 3 0 , 0 0 0 miles

thereafter, will remove the dissolved solids and reduce seal

wear. In addition, the replacement coolant will be balanced.

In terms of recycling old coolant, our view is that removing

all of the old inhibitors, essentially distilling off the

glycol or removing it in some other way, and then reinhibiting

that glycol, is far more armropriate than trvincr to filter out

solids and quess what‘s in there, you know, whatever mix of

coolants because we know in the real world, we say don’t mix

brands.

and second, even i f we did, you are going to pick up your

favorite brand o f f the shelf. Whether it happens to be as half

the market we know is Prestone or some other brand.

comment is, even though the cost of engine coolant has

increased significantly over the past few years, and gone

through some recent problems and w i l l probably show no signs of

decreasing for a couple of years.

average owner of a passenger car or a light duty truck is under

$10.00, which is a relatively small cost to pay f o r cooling

system protection over the two and three years it‘s going to be

in there. Thank you.

F i r s t of all we don‘t tell you what brand we put in,

My last

The additional cost to the

Our next speaker is Dr. Dale McKensie of the First Brands

Corporation. His topic will be coolant performance from an

aftermarket point of view. Dale received his Ph.D. in

chemistry at the University of Maryland, and joined the

research and development department of Union Carbide

corporation in 1961 at the Terrytown Technical Center in New

York.

division in 1986, and the First Brands Corporation was

established as an outgrowth, Dale joined First Brands, and

during that period managed t h e laboratory and achieved

considerable experience in research and development of

inhibited coolants.

When Union Carbide sold it's home and automotive product

,

' . "In developing an antifreeze that Will protect all of the

metals in the cooling system, using for example an ASTM

Glassware test because it is inexpensive and i ts quick and

convenient, is no assurance that one has a system that w i l l

perform in vehicles under all foreseeable conditions of use and

misuse.

Full performance testing is sophisticated, complex,

methodical and very expensive and it involves all of the

components in a cooling system. There are no shortcuts.

What do we do with the used antifreeze in those

jurisdictions where it's unlawful to dispose of it municipal

treatment facilities. One answer of course is recycle, use it

again.

later today. In principle, it is a worthy objective, in my

view.

antifreeze can be resurrected to a viable, balanced, as Frank

said, and robust antifreeze that will either exceed all the

performance specifications spelled out by ASTM, SAE and the

This concept will be explored by three of our speakers

The challenge is whether through a recycle process used

current truck manufacturers and whether this can be

accomplished at a cost that is competitive to lawful disposal

or new antifreeze procurement.

From First Brands point of view, recycling to regenerate a

coolant that will reliably protect your $15 - 20,000 car or your $100,000 truck, is not accomplished bv simDlv filterinq

off the insoluble crud in the o l d used coolant or some nortion

of it that YOU take out and then nut back in. And pourina in

more inhibitor solids, w e do not believe this is the answer.

You add the new reinhibitor salt to the dissolved salt

already in the coolant. that is the salt from the orisinal

corrosion inhibitor Dackaae when the antifreeze was new, salt

derived from corrosion that ha5 occurred i n the system, salt

derived from the dearadation of the ethvlene slvcol itself,

salt from the water added in the coolant system in make UD, and

in heavv dutv trucks. accumulated salt from a dozen or more

additions of supplemental coolins additives as per the

directions of the heavy dutv enaine manufacturers and YOU have

created a salt and solid laden coolant that is ready to cause

you a lot of problems.

By the wav, when one of the coolants has been recycled iq

this way, how do YOU mark or label it so when it comes back

around the next time. YOU don‘t lust add more salt and keea it

qoina and add solids to the solids.

in coolant will, not may, will, leave a Derf0r”Ce Droblem.

The &cumulation of salt

SimDlv removina dissolved hard water and metal ions from

solutions bv use of sav an ion exchanse column, in our

judaement is insufficient. This treatment does not remove the

dissolved DhosDhates, borates, silicates. nitrates, borides,

acetates, formates and everythins else we see in a coolant that

were orisinally put into the coolant or that have senerated in

the lif e of the,cooiant. These salts do not iust disaDDear.

A s an example, a balanced level of nitrite in the truck

coolant that seems effective in preventing cavitation, in wet

sleeve liners, but allow the concentration of nitrite to get a

little t o o high say through coolant recycling, or more nitrite

..

a d d i t i o n w i t h o u t f irst removing t h e n i t r i t e t h a t w a s present i n

t h e f irst place, t h e n you can s a y goodbye t o a l l t h e so lde r i n

t h e r a d i a t o r s .

E x c e s s i v e t o t a l s o l i d s c a u s e s c a l i n g i n t h e e n g i n e ,

d e t e r i o r a t i o n and a b r a s i o n of t h e water pump s e a l s and u p s e t o f

t h e i o n i c s t r e n g t h o r e lectr ical b a l a n c e of t h e c o o l a n t t h a t is

e s s e n t i a l t o its per formance , t h a t is t h e d r i v i n g force of t h e

c h e m i s t r y , t h a t is supposed t o occur between metals i n t h e

c o o l i n g sys t em and t h e v a r i o u s c o r r o s i o n i n h i b i t o r s t h a t are

p r e s e n t .

YOU have created a c o n d i t i o n , w h e r e i n c o r r o s i o n c a n p r o c e e d

w i t h o u t effect ive b l o c k i n g c h e m i s t r y even though t h e r e a r e

I f you r e t a r d o r p r e v e n t t h e i r a b i l i t y t o i n t e r a c t ,

i n h i b i t o r s t h e r e . It

Mr. Dick Hercamp, consultant with the Fleet Guard

Corporations. He will present performance requirements for

heavy duty truck coolants. Dick received his bachelor's of

science in chemical engineering from Predue in 1957. He

graduated with distinction. He received his master's of

science in engineering from Predue in 1969, and after 21 1/2

years of service with Cummins Engines, he retired in November

1, 1987. Dick is recognized throughout North America as an

expert in coolants, lubricants and sealing materials for

internal combustion engines.

Manufacturer's Cooling Subcommittee, he has been a leader in

developing coolants fo r heavy duty engines. He is a registered

professional engineer.

Honorary Engineering Fraternity, the Society of Automotive

Engineers and the American Society f o r Testing and Materials.

He has authored and co-authored many technical papers in the

areas of coolants, lubricants, non-metallic materials f o r heavy

duty diesel engines. I'd like to present Dick Hercamp.

As chairman of the Engine

Dick is a member d'f Phi Beta Phi

"And finallv, do not trv to extend the use of the sDent

coolant bevond the encrine manufacturers recommendation, and

here E.M.A. also says u v e a r s max, by either on board or off

board filtratinq and F.C.A. addition."

Mr. Roy Beal of Amalgamated Technology. Roy is going to

present the subject of ASTM coolant specifications. Roy got

h i s bachelor's degree in metallurgy at the University of

Sheffield in England. He worked at G K N , a large engineering

company in automotive components. He immigrated to the U.S. in

1968, and worked for the Illinois Institute of Technology

Research Institute. There he became assistant director in the

metals division, and following that he formed his own company,

Amalgamated Technologies in 1981. He is the president of the

company and has been involved with automotive radiators and

coolants for the past 20 years. At his laboratory, he carries

out major development programs and testing work. Roy has been

chairman of ASTM Engine Coolant Committee D15 for the past 4

years.

Soldering Committee. He has authored many papers and books on

metal technology. I'd like to present Roy Beal.

He is also Chairman of the American Welding Institute

"Right now, just to show that there are currently more

than 20 ASTM standards available.

The Engine Coolant Committee has several subcommittees

that cover physical and chemical requirements of coolants and

also cover the applications and performance side of the

material. These range from the glassware test, that people

have extensively covered in looking at recycling and the

glassware test is a really important screening test. In the

form of screening tests, it's an important part of the road

toward good coolant. It is not of itself the end of the road.

S O , at first cut try at looking at how good a product is or how

good your doing in developing something, the glassware test is

very valuable. However, it should never be considered a total

acceptance criterion.

The engine coolant committee in more kecent years, g o t

involved with the transport deposition problem, which was

talked about, which caused some consternation confirmation,

which is now being resolved, this has resulted in the ASTM test

called the Hot Surface Test D4340, which is another part of the

arsenal, no one talked this morning about this particular test

at all, I'm referring to the recycling group. I don't know

whether they subjected recycled Droducts to this Darticular

test, but if they haven't it's imDortant they do so because it

is a very imDortant way to define whether YOU are qoincr to qet

heavv aluminum corrosion or whether your Droduct has a chance

of livina in that svstem without literally dissolvins the

enqine.

Think of the solution as an electrolyte. It is salts in a

5 0 / 5 0 ethylene, glycol water solution. What happens from our

schoolboy physics days, ok lets make a batch of salt, we create

an electrolyte. If we put more salt in the solution, you can

get an even better electrolyte. Put more salt on that, and its

going to get better yet.

system, really is to have the minimum amount of salts in there

to do the maximum amount of protection. Anybody in the

corrosion business knows this very well.

in addina and addina and addincr, and Mr. Hercamp made the

comment this morning about adding salts over a period of time.

So, the best way to protect the

S o there is a danqer

S O , good engine coolant manufacture requires a lot of work both

physical and metallurgical in understanding of electro

chemistry, corrosion and understanding that we want a minimum

of salts in there.

There is a big danger and that danger has to be recognized

by them and the potential users. Coolant cannot last forever.

Dale McKenzie made the comment this mornins what happens when

you brinu it back aaain and aaain. you can see where YOU can

set into trouble. So in closing, the thing to say is that ASTM

as an organization has a wide number of standards that you can

utilize. Do your homework and be careful and we'll all drive

very well. Thank you.tt

our next speaker owned and operated a general repair

service station for four years. This next point he asked me to

recite, I hope, I think he's just kidding, but 1'11 go through

with it, Steve taught high school and college classes for t e n

years, developed brain damage and entered the world of

publishing. He doesn't look damaged to me, I think he's

putting us on. He currently works as managing editor of

Radiator ReDorter and contributing editor to two other long-

time publications concerning automotive fleets. He is also

currently an ASTM Committee D15 member on coolant, a member of

the Vehicular Heat Exchange and Heat Transfer Systems, SAE

Committee. I'd like to present Steve Basil.

O u r n e x t s p e a k e r owned and o p e r a t e d a g e n e r a l repa. i r

se rv ice s t a t i o n f o r f o u r y e a r s .

r e c i t e , I h o p e , I t h i n k h e ' s j u s t k i d d i n g , b u t 1/11 go t h r o u g h

w i t h i t , s t e v e t a u g h t h i g h s c h o o l and c o l l e g e c l a s s e s for t e n

y e a r s , d e v e l o p e d b r a i n damage and e n t e r e d t h e world o f

p u b l i s h i n g . He d o e s n ' t l o o k damaged t o me, I t h i n k h e ' s

p u t t i n g u s o n . H e c u r r e n t l y works a s managing e d i t o r o f

R a d i a t o r Reporter a n d c o n t r i b u t i n g e d i t o r t o two o t h e r l o n g -

t i m e p u b l i c a t i o n s c o n c e r n i n g a u t o m o t i v e f l e e t s .

c u r r e n t l y a n ASTM Committee D 1 5 member on c o o l a n t , a member o f

T h i s n e x t p o i n t h e a s k e d me t o

He is a l s o

t h e V e h i c u l a r Heat Exchange a n d Heat T r a n s f e r Sys t ems , SAE

c o m m i t t e e . I ' d l i k e t o p r e s e n t S t e v e B a s i l .

p+rQe r r F i r s t o p t i o n , i n terms of y o u r s h o p , is r e c y c l i n g i n y o u r

<hop. Now, we've tes ted t h r e e r e c y c l i n g g y s t e m s t o da t e . W e c z

have gone o n - s i t e collected s a m p l e s , t a l k e d t o t h e d e v e l o p e r s ,

s e n t t h o s e coo lan t s a m p l e s s e n t t o i n d e p e n d e n t l a b o r a t o r i e s \ - across t h e Un i t ed S t a t e s and a l l t h e resul ts i n d i c a t e t h a t none

of t h e s e r e c y c l e r s work a t this time. I d o b e l i e v e , however a t

- - -----

- t h i s time, if you d e c i d e t o go a h e a d and ge t t h e r e c y c l i n g

machine , t h a t you k e e p t h e manufac tu re r s claims, w a r r a n t i e s ,

etc. s o t h a t if a n y t h i n g does come b a c k , you c a n p l a y t h e same

games t h a t i n s u r a n c e compan ies are now p l a y i n g w i t h t h e i r

c l i en t s . I n s u r a n c e compan ies when t h e f e d e r a l government f i r s t

came o u t , i n s t e a d o f f i n i n g t h e i n s u r a n c e compan ies c l ients for

p o l l u t i n g , t h e i n s u r a n c e compan ies w e n t t o b a t f o r t h e i r

c l i e n t s . The i n s u r a n c e compan ies a r e f i n d i n g o u t t h a t t h e y

/

have to pay f o r what their clients do. If what their clients do

is illegal. so guess who the insurance companies line up with

now, the environmentalists.

keep those claims, and if the customer does comes back to you,

SO I would suggest to you that you

- _/-

ycI I Y I ~ C O r J t h a t y o u pretend your insurance company and you go with your

customer to court and be his witness.

I'd like to ask Frank Duffy to make a comment, and I'd

like to ask the gentlembn from Ford Motor Company, the

materials engineer. Are there standards that you have that you

require the coolant to be replaced? we' We have standards f o r @F coolant t o be replaced at regular intervals, 36,000 miles/two

years. '7

)'The standards we have for engine coolant are designed for

two purposes . One, original fill, and two, for our own in-

house brands. They happen to be the same :tandard. You get OE

quality if you buy Mopar and from my introduction, you know I

worked for Ford, you buy Motorcraft y o u q h 9 r - something that < --

meets the Ford standard. In terms of what goes in, basically, - - --_-__ - - - - _ we are willing to live with something that meets all the

requirements of ASTM D3306. This includes t h e pump cavitation

test, this includes the hot surface test, in addition t o the

- -. _.- - - - -- --- - --- -- ___ . -. . _-__..

other data we saw today, I don't have the stuff memorized, I'd

have to look it up, I think there are a couple of other

performance prospects to this standard. If it meets that, then ,

f l - . (

its acceptable.

now with engine oil.

on engine oil which says if the oil meets the accepted industry

W h n ou get into the same issue of recycling

And we have an official published policy )i.

s t a n d a r d s , which a t t h i s t i m e is A P I C a t e g o r y S G , t h e n it is

a c c e p t a b l e .

how do d e m o n s t r a t e t h a t e a c h b a t c h o f r e c y c l e d m a t e r i n

&onforming t o t h e s t a n d a r d s L e s p e c i a l l y i f your g o i n g d o i t on

a v e h i c l e by v e h i c l e b a s i s . T h i s g e t s t o be a major question.

Can t h e s u p p l i e r of t h e new i n h i b i t o r p a c k a g e g u a r a n t e e i t ' s

You h a v e t o l i v e w i t h

The i s s u e g e t s t o be , w i t h e n g i n e o i l o r c o o l a n t , - ---_ . - _.

/ - -- - - -_-- - -

- . _- - - - - _ _

- --- - --- --

t o meet t h e s t a n d a r d s , o r w h a t .

t h e f ac t t h a t most t h e c o o l a n t s o u t there are b e i n g f o r m u l a t e d

t o ~ 3 3 0 6 , o r bet ter , most of it is f o r m u l a t e d t o c o n f o r m t o t h e

s t a t e r e q u i r e m e n t s , which were a d o p t e d D3306. So w e h a v e t o

l i v e w i t h t h a t f a c t .

work ing t o .

T h a t ' s t h e o n l y s t a n d a r d t h a t w e a re 11

I ' d l i k e D r . McKensie t o comment on t h a t f rom t h e

s t a n d p o i n t of a f t e r m a r k e t a n t i f r e e z e , what a r e h i s s t a n d a r d s .

our s tandards a re ASTM, I s u p p o s e we're t a l k i n g a b o u t SAE

a s w e l l as a l l of t h e e n g i n e m a n u f a c t u r e r s a n d car company's

s t a n d a r d s . I t h i n k i t ' s i m p o r t a n t t h a t t h i s piece of r e c y c l e

equipment n o t o n l y t h e e q u i p m e n t , n o t o n l y the c h e m i c a l s y o u r -

p u t t i n g i n , w i l l r e p e a t e d l y r e l i a b l y a n d r e p r o d u c t i v e l y meet -_ -- ~ --

the D3306 a n t i f r e e z e standards, regardless of t h e c r u d t h a t is

coming o u t of t h e v e h i c l e y o u ' r e g o i n g t o t r e a t .

i d e a l c a s e , where y o u ' r e t a k i n g t h e c a r 10 ,000 miles. When I

read p a t e n t s by one of t h e s e r e c y c l e r s t h a t s a y s t h e f o l l o w i n g :

r -- Not some - .-c

c u t t h e l i n e on t h e r a d i a t o r h o s e a n d p u t a tee i n it. Have

you e v e r t r i e d t o f i n d t h e r a d i a t o r h o s e on one of t h o s e

J a p a n e s e cars o r t h e Grand A m ' s , y o u ' l l n e v e r even f i n d t h e

h o s e s . o.K., b u t a f t e r you g e t t h e h o s e s , i t s a y s # 2 , you p u t

a flush in. And you r e c y c l e t h i s for 1 0 m i n u t e s o r u n t i l t h e

t h e r m o s t a t o p e n s . N o w you pump t h i s o u t i n t o my r e se rvo i r and

f i l t e r it a n d I add t h e i n h i b i t o r t o i t . Notice t h e f l u s h is i n

there , 0.K. And I add t h e i n h i b i t o r t o i t and I f i l t e r it and

p u t it b a c k i n t h e e n g i n e , and by God, t h a t ' s a s good as new.

I A u e s t i o n t h a t , a n d I q u e s t i o n tha- would r e p r o d u c i b l y

b e a D3306 a n t i f r e e z e r e g a r d l e s s of what you s t a r t e d w i t h .

I 7.

L ' -- --.-- - ._

\ c- -- ----__

One l a s t q u e s t i o n t h e gen t l eman i n the green s h i r t , ' ! -

i

p l e a s e .

? 'One l a s t q u e s t i o n and I ' l l make it a simple q u e s t i o n of

everybody i n t h e p a n e l . From t h e i n f o r m a t i o n we 've heard today

o n t h e t h r e e r e c y c l i n g mach ines , I would l i k e e v e r y b o d y o n t h e

p a n e l i n a s i m p l e y e s o r no a n s w e r .

t h a t t h e r e c y c l i n g of t h e a n t i f r e e z e w i t h a n y of - these t h r e e Q- . --. -. p r o d u c t s t h a t h a v e b e e n p r e s e n t e d a t t h e c o n f e r e n c e t o d a y do

t h e y fee l t h a t t h e y will meet t h e ASTM S t a n d a r d of t h e new

a n t i f r e e z e t h a t is requ i r ed by t h e m a n u f a c t u r e r s .

t h e y meet t h e s tandards o f t h e OE m a n u f a c t u r e r s .

D o they honestly b e l i e v e -- . - _ _ ----

-.---

- _ -. - -- -

--- - Do the) ; f e e l

J u s t a y e s o r - _- --- - . -- ____.

n o o n e b y o n e r i g h t down t h e p a n e l . Gent lemen, a r e you going

t o a c c e p t t h e c h a l l e n g e . I '

Answer :

S t e v e Bas i l : "From t h e tests t h a t I hau.e r e c e i v e d so f a r .

The t es t ind ica t e s t h a t t h e mach ine ry d o e s n o t

work.

F rank Duffy: "From t h e da t a I h a v e seeE, n~ f don't b e l i e v e

t h e y work.

Dale McKensie: "Same answer f o r m e . "

R i c h a r d I'For heavy d u t y , t h e answer is no . I c a n ' t Hercamp:

Roy Beal:

speak for t h e automobile.Ii

"1 h a v e a g e t o u T c l a u s e , a s a t e s t h o u s e I ' d be

happy t o t e s t anybody ' s . t 1