Expert Seminar: Board Culture &Robert’s Rules of Order

(with Susan Leahy)

Joan:Well, good afternoon here from the east coast. And I am here with Susan Leahy who iscoming to us from Mexico.

Susan:Playa del Carmen, Mexico!

Joan:Exactly. And I am just going to call up the group on my phone because I often can seeeverything a little bit better while Susan is talking, but please, please, please come onin, let us know where you're from and couple of words about the mission of yourorganization. Susan, you can see the thread here on the left hand side, right?

Susan:I love that you already loves Roberts. Welcome. My people.

Joan:So yeah, come on in. Let us know where you're watching from and you know, noteverybody loves Robert's Rules of Order. So, see of the things I... And I'm going to justgive just a couple minutes and I'm going to do an intro of Susan and the away we'regoing to go here.

Joan:Hang on one second. Let me call up my groups. There we are.

Susan:They look good ordered.

Joan:There we go. All right. So, we've got folks here. So, let's see who's in the house. KellyAnn is in the house and Kristen from Maine. Kristen from Webster. Oregon. Denver. SagHarbor, oh Nancy Shipley, you're lucky, it's beautiful in Sag Harbor. So, welcomeeverybody. I am super happy to be doing this expert seminar with Susan Leahy and I'mnot going to lie. I thought to myself, "Hmm, Robert's Rules of Order, an expert seminaron Robert's Rules of Order." And Laura said, "Oh no, no, it's going to be great." And Isaid, "You know, some people find watching paint dry to be really, really fun too. I justdon't happen to be among those people."

Joan:And so, then I met Susan Leahy and I realized something that I often teach that thething that we're teaching is actually a vehicle, a tool for something much, much greaterand much more important.

Susan:Yeah.

Joan:And in my very brief conversation with Susan and flying around on her website, Irealized that in this regard we are kindred spirits. And so, what I want to tell you aboutSusan and she will banter about as well, is unlike me, Susan Leahy he has a master'sdegree in applied behavioral science with an emphasis on coaching and consulting.Mine comes like more like OJT, but in Susan's previous life, she broke cattle with herown hands. Now, every single one of you who is watching today has had one of thosejobs, not one of those jobs, but like one of those jobs that when you're doing it, you'relike, why am I doing this? And I have a hunch that Susan Leahy was thinking that whenshe was breaking cattle and she's right now going to tell you, what does breaking cattlehave to do with your particular kind of mission driven work?

Susan:Well, I mean, come on. I mean, doesn't that feel like we've got all that at energy inboards sometimes? People with big energy moving in a different direction and we needto halter break some people so that they know how to kind of walk through meetings ina way that doesn't stampede the progress of the meeting. We've all been in a meetingthat, woah, it's stampedes in the wrong direction and boy, oh boy, when we end standkind of different techniques to pull the energy in and to manage big energy, because

that's the big thing... I'm not a big person, but I am not afraid to manage big energy andwe're going to see that in meetings. And we got to do it in a way that invites people intothe meeting. And that we're really taking care of the people in the meeting. And so, Ilearn a lot of that when I was breaking cattle and working on the farm. It's not what I doanymore. I have a degree, my undergraduate degree is in food marketing andagricultural business management. So yeah.

Joan:And what I, what I actually liked in your bio is what you learned is that the animal of yourown fear is the fiercest animal to break. I love that.

Susan:Full stop. Full stop.

Joan:Yep. Full stop. What I also just loved about what Susan told me about why she kind ofdigs Robert's Rules of Order and has sort of made it quite a thing for herself is all aboutthis distinction between a group and a team.

Susan:Yeah. Yeah.

Joan:And many of you have heard me say that the highest functioning boards are not justcollections of individuals, but rather they are teams.

Susan:Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joan:And that shifting them from that collection of individuals to a team is hard work. It'sdoable, but it requires intention. And that I learned from Susan, as you will, that Robert'sRules is a way to help facilitate that.

Susan:Am I allowed to do this? Am I allowed to do that?

Joan:Yeah, totally.

Susan:Right on the nose.

Joan:In fact, actually the more you do it, actually, the happier it'll make me. So, Susan is thecreator of Robert's Rules Made Simple and she has provided webinars, livepresentations, and training products to more than 75,000 board members across the USand Canada. So, she is doing the good work of working with board members to reallyeducate them about how to be effective board members. And we all know whetheryou're a executive director or a board member, how hungry board members are to howto be good at their jobs.

Susan:Yes.

Joan:One of the things I say often is that people who raise their hand for board service areaccustomed to being successful. They didn't join to do a half-ass job. And when we givethem the tools to do their jobs well, guess what they do their jobs well.

Susan:Yes.

Joan:The last thing I want to say before I hand it off to Susan who comes to us from Playa delCarmen, Mexico, but also spends time in LA, is that she was raised by a dad who was acareer Marine.

Susan:Oorah!

Joan:And mother who was a professional clown.

Susan:That's right.

Joan:I'll let you take it from here and try to rock it.

Susan:I love that introduction. And I love when people choose to share that because what thatsays is I'm seriously funny and I have really big shoes to fill. No...

Joan:I love that. Ba da dum. So, I am going to go backstage and let you do your thing.

Susan:Thank you for having me.

Joan:We've got a very, very nice group of people in the house today who are all hungry forwhat you're offering and extremely grateful for your time. And I will be workingbackstage also to filter questions as they come in so don't hesitate to ask them as youhave them in the thread. And if anything strikes me as something that is worth me justsort of stopping and clarifying, I'll pop myself back in, all right?

Susan:Great. Perfect. Thank you so much, Joan. This is great.

Joan:All right.

Susan:And I really appreciate you have me today. I'm excited about what we're going to talkabout.

Joan:All right, good. All right, Susan Leahy, the floor is yours.

Susan:All right. So, Joan was saying something that really kind of inspired me to start with thisactivity because for me, I do believe that Robert's Rules of Order is one of the mostunderutilized team building tools that associations, nonprofit boards have at theirdisplay. And when I think of a meeting, I like to make things simple. It's that when youkind of think about a productive meeting, you're going to walk into the meeting like thisand you have to determine, do you walk out like this where everybody's energy is upand we feel like we've really done good work and we've accomplished something? Orare you walking out of meetings and energy is like this?

Susan:And this training is about inspiring more of this in everyone's life because I believe thatthere are few things that are really more exciting than a meeting where work actuallygets done, where the voices of the majority and the voices of the minority can actuallysit around the same table, create a safe space, so that change and that action can beagreed upon. So that organizations can keep doing the good work that we want to do.Unfortunately, and I call it job security a lot of meetings are like this.

Susan:And so, my name is Susan Leahy and I am from Robert's Rules Made Simple and I'mgoing to just share with you kind of some other little things from my background. So,moving on to the next slide, you're going to see that I've worked with... There we go.We've worked with... I'm a professional trainer, speaker, and coach. I've trained over8,000 boards, 75,000 board members across the United States and Canada, reallyworldwide, on the fundamentals of Robert's Rules of Order. I specialize in working withboard chairs to really help them up level their confidence and their competence when itcomes to running meetings because I believe that the chair has the single largestimpact on the success or failure of a meeting. And we need to start giving chairs thetraining they need in order to bolster both their confidence and competence. And I havecreated Robert's Rules of Order back in 2002 and have worked with a variety of boards.And I'm excited to be here today to talk about healthy board dynamics.

Susan:So, moving forward, one of the things I want you to think about is what if your boardonly has two options? So wherever you are, I know that I can't see you now, but youcould put it in the comments if you see the emoji with the peace sign, would you put thatup right now, or at least put two fingers up in the air? Because what I want you to

understand is that every time you walk into a meeting, your board only has two options.And so, clicking the screen forward, what I want you to understand is that you only havetwo options and those options are you're going to move through that meeting as a groupor you're going to move through that meeting as a team, and group creates this energy,team creates this energy.

Susan:And when you think about team, teams really want to accomplish and really get morework done. So, clicking on the slide, what I want you to understand is that eachindividual board member needs to take ownership for how they're showing up in themeetings. Am I being group or am I being team? And when I work with my boards that'sone of the questions I want every single person to ask themselves because let's justthink about this, what if, as a question, what if everything that you do, everything thatyou say, everything that you think, everything that you feel is either keeping you ingroup or it's elevating you into the experience of team? The reality is we really need toinspire our board members to choose to enter into their board meetings choosing tooperate at the level of team because the patterned behavior is group.

Susan:And if you can think about meetings that are poorly run, you can see the group behaviorthat comes out from the individuals. And we've all also been in a meeting where we'veexperienced team and we can see those behaviors. But what we need to do is we needto really inspire the individual board member. So, you only have two options. And mydesire when we use Robert's Rules of Order is that you're using it as a team buildingtool.

Susan:So, let's move on to the next slide and talk about the fact that there is a baseline. Andthe truth is what I've seen, and this isn't negative, it's normal. I don't want to make groupa bad place. I want to make group a normal place. So, group isn't negative, it's normal.And so, we have to not vilify people when they're operating there because when we'revilifying or making people wrong, we ourselves are in group.

Susan:So, when we identify some of that bad meeting behavior that comes out, we just go,okay, we're being a little bit group right now because the reality is most boards operateas a group. And so, let's look at what group is. So clicking on the screen, we know that

group is well intended people. And Joan said this at the beginning of the training, peopleraise their hands on boards because they are well intended. However, unless we'reintentional, what's happening is that people tend to look out for their self-interest and wekind of end up operating in this competitive energy. And what happens is that manyboards get locked in power struggles. And so, thinking about these elements and whereis your board kind of stuck in group?

Susan:So, the next slide is really talking about wanting your board to create the context ofteam. Now, this is going to be even more interesting, okay? Bigger than just the twooptions. What I want you to acknowledge is that in your meetings, go ahead and feel allof the space around you. I want you to acknowledge that there is a context that yourmeetings are operating in and your context is the energy of that meeting. And manytimes the context of the meeting is what's creating this or this, right? So, we have toacknowledge the context and the context that I want you to think about intentionallycreating is the context of team. So, the first thing is we want people to get intentional.We want board members to intentionally be asking themself, "Am I showing up as groupor am I showing up as team?" The next element is really committed to a commoncause, how important that is.

Susan:The next element is understanding that we are working collaboratively, really bolsteringthe intention. The next element is owning that I am here. And I think this is so important.I'm going to take a deep breath because powerful boards are a space where individualboard members understand that I am here to influence, but I'm also here to beinfluenced, right? We live in a world where everyone's trying to be an influencer. Andthat just drives me crazy because really what's powerful is not just being an influencer,but when you're powerful enough to be an influencer who can be influenced, that's apowerful board. And the last one that we have here is that we're generating anempowered experience. And let me just say it, I'm going to say it in English andSpanish, we're creating a win, win. We're creating ganar-ganar. That that is what we'reseeking out of our business meetings, out of our executive meetings, out of our formalmeetings, out of our informal meetings, we're seeking a win-win.

Susan:So, my work is to really help organizations develop a context of team within their boardso that context can trickle out. And what I understand moving on to the next slide is that

great teams run great meetings. If you have an organization that's struggling to buildteam and culture, it's because there's something going on at the level of your meetings.How you're running your personal or your professional meetings. And what I love aboutRobert's is that once you understand Robert's Rules of Order formally, you can apply itinformally in any space in your life where you're wanting to take action and get thingsdone. So, great teams run great meetings. Now, before we jump into Robert's, what Iwant you to see here in the next slide is really understanding that great boards start withthe individual board member's mindset.

Susan:I'm a really physical trainer. So, I want you to touch your head. I want you to own theimportance of your mindset. Just like I said, really enrolling your board members andasking themselves, "Am I being group right now or am I being team?", will get peoplethinking about how their thinking impacts what's happening in the board meeting. So, Iwant to take you into your mindset for a moment, and this is one of the activities that Ido when I do my full day trainings that center around building board culture.

Susan:So, going on to the next slide, I want you to kind of make a fist. So wherever you are,okay. We just did the peace sign. We just did kind of up and down. We've just touchedour head. And now I want to take you into your brain. This represents your brain. Somake a fist. And what this represents is the fixed mindset. And I want you to take amoment and I want you to just acknowledge what is it like for yourself when you are inthe fixed mindset? What are you thinking? What are you feeling? What's happening?How are you communicating? And then, what I'd like you to do is I want you toacknowledge what is it like when you're communicating with somebody who's in thefixed mindset, right? It's that sense of we're creating natural resistance.

Susan:So, kind of clicking forward on the slide, what you'll see is that when board memberswalk into a meeting and their mindset is in the fixed mindset, they're naturally going tobe having win/lose, right/wrong, good/bad, us versus them, competitive discussions.Now take a deep breath. How many times have you sat in a meeting and you canidentify this way of communicating, right? It's not going to get you anywhere and it'sgoing to create a whole lot of resistance. And so, we have to become more intentionalwith respects to inviting board members to open up their mindset.

Susan:So, moving on to the next slide, what I want to introduce you to is another way that yourbrain can walk into a meeting. So, what I'd like you to do is I just want you to kind ofopen up that fist and kind of extend your palm for a moment. And I want you to see whatyou have here now that you didn't have before is space, right? You're not givingeverything away. You're not giving all of your ideas away. You're holding onto yourideas, but you're creating space for other ideas to join you.

Susan:So, clicking on this screen right now, what you'll come to understand is that it reallyrepresents the mindset we want to foster intentionally on our boards, which is thegrowth mindset. And when we're in the growth mindset, clicking forward, you'll see thatit fosters conversations in your meetings, clicking forward on the slide, it fostersconversations. And we're going to just take a moment that are... Can we flip forward onthe side, Trevor? There we go.

Susan:I don't have control of my slides. I'm trying to be transparent, but we're fosteringconversations that are win-win. We're fostering communication and conversation that'scurious, that's open, and ultimately more collaborative. Now, why is this so important topair with Robert's? Because if you arm people with Robert's Rules of Order and theirmindset is fixed, that's exactly what Robert's is going to become, it's going to become aweapon. And I want to do and what I'm interested in doing is to really fosteringintentionally a growth mindset where people can really utilize Robert's Rules of Order asa communication and team building tool.

Susan:So, really important as we're looking at this. So, asking yourself, am I in the fixedmindset or am I in the growth? Now, moving on to the next slide, I want to give you onelittle tip because moving as a human being from the fixed mindset to the growth mindsetis almost physiologically impossible to do in a split second. We can acknowledge wherewe are, but to create movement, what I want you to do is I want you to make a fist withme, acknowledge you're in the fixed mindset, and then I want you to just take your onefinger and stick it up in the air like this. Don't let it be the middle finger. Let it be thepointer finger because it'll have greater impact. And I want you to take that finger and Iwant you to stick it here to the corner of your mouth and clicking forward, I want you to

make this noise... Hey, so moving forward in the slide, you're going to make this noise,"Hmm. Hmm." All right.

Susan:So, Trevor, I need you to help me out a little here, you click it, there it is. This is thenoise that we want to make because what's amazing is that when we move from here tohere and we invite ourselves as individuals to be more curious, it unlocks the other handand it makes it easier to move forward, right? So, as we're looking at this, theimportance of inspiring greater curiosity, greater questioning, greater openness on ourboards is going to benefit all of our meetings. So, moving forward, I really wanted to laya foundation for Robert's because my interest in this topic is not just about teachingrules, it's about really teaching you a tool that can foster a very powerful context thatenhances everyone's life and that's team.

Susan:I want people to have more team on their boards. I want people to have more teamswith their children. I want to have more team in my bedroom. Like I want to have moreteam in my romantic relationship with my husband. I want team everywhere in my lifebecause what does that do? It up levels the experience I'm having. And so, surprisinglyor not surprisingly, Robert's is a tool that I use in every area of my life. So, I want to talkabout it specifically with respects to the fact that Robert's is a team building tool. Like,clicking forward, I want you to see that it protects the rights of members and it protectsour rights to make motions and it protects our rights to debate and to vote. That'seffectively how we create action or handle our business, clicking forward on the slide, Iwant us to understand that when-

Susan:Clicking forward on the slide, I want us to understand that when used properly, it createsa safe space for the voices of the majority and minority to participate in a meeting andcollectively make business decisions. So many organizations right now are talking aboutdiversity issues, and I'm like, it's right here. You already have a diversity trainingwrapped up in Robert's if you understand how to intentionally train it. To be able tocreate a safe space for the voices of the majority and the voices of the minority, that'sdiversity training, and we haven't really been taught how to do that properly. ButRobert's can be a road map that can support this very vital and important issue.

Susan:

So the next slide I want you to just kind of have some background on Robert's. Soclicking through this slide, what you're going to see is that Robert's has gone through 12revisions, right? And it's currently on its 12 revisions. Moving forward, going to quicklygo through this slide, you can put up each of the pieces, the most recent being releasedin September 2020. And it's important, an organization's constitution and bylaws givesRobert's the authority. Okay, I'm going to stop, because I want you to hear this. Manytimes people try to use Robert's as a weapon and it's like, "Well, Robert's Rules says."

Susan:Robert's is the lowest ranking document in your organization. If anything, in yourorganization's constitutions, bylaws, state, federal regulations says anything differentfrom Robert's, then you yield to the highest ranking document. And so all that Robert'sis, is a roadmap for how we are going to communicate in meetings to handle ourbusiness.

Susan:The next slide importantly kind of shares a quote from the 10th edition that I really lovedso much. Now I know that I don't have the advantage of hearing your voices, but if youwould just indulge me and you, in your best parliamentary procedure sounding voice,could you just read what's on the slide right here? So whatever that sounds like for you,kind of in my mind, I imagine it as big, but read this ready out loud.

Susan:"But one of the greatest needs in parliamentary procedure today is for an increased yetrelatively small, basic portion of it to become common property of everyone." Nowwherever you are, because you know that I'm a physical trainer, I want you to take yourhand, and I want you to sweep through the room, and I want you to say, "Everyone,everyone." See, this is the power of Robert's. We don't need to becomeparliamentarians, we just need to support our board members in understanding thefundamentals, a small basic portion. So important as we're looking at this.

Susan:Moving on to the next slide, what I want to do before I take you into that small basicportion, is I want to introduce the three laws. Now you're going to say, "Well, whose lawsare these?" These are my laws. Okay. So when we're thinking about Robert's Rules ofOrder, law number one, and we're going to put that up on the screen is that everyone onyour board, on your team must commit to learn the basics. So we have to make sure

that everyone on your board understands the seven fundamental motions. Law numbertwo, we'll put that up right now, is that Robert's Rules of Order should always be lookedat as a team building tool, because I just want to put this out there. Your organization'smeetings are your best team building activity. You should be thinking of team buildingactivity as meeting. They should be synonymous. You are building team in everymeeting that you're in, or you're not building team in every meeting that you're in.

Susan:Now number two, and number three is that, and I'm going to just say here, meetingsshould not be a waste of time, right? I was like, "Can I get a hallelujah? Right? Can I getan amen?" So thinking about this meeting should not be a waste of time. We're going toquickly go through these three laws, because this lays the foundation for what we'regoing to talk about in the rest of the training.

Susan:Let's look at law number one. So looking at law number one, we're going to flip over tothe next slide, and what you'll see is that every board member, everyone on your teammust commit to learn the basics. So I'm going to share with you those basics right now.So flipping to the next slide, I want to start with just getting you to understand, because Iwant to make it simple, and I want to make it so it's not threatening.

Susan:When I say motion, you think question. And I'd like everybody to type into the chatfunctionality right now, motion equals question. Can you type into the chat functionality?Motion equals question. So when I say motion, you think question, and when I sayquestion, you think motion. A motion is nothing more than a business question. That'sall we're doing. So I want you to understand that very simply, because many timespeople are intimidated to make motions. And now from this moment forward, you're notgoing to be intimidated because all you're doing is asking a question, right?

Susan:So moving on to the next slide, I'm going to introduce you to the seven fundamentalmotions. Now this is a really big book, and it is super daunting. And quite honestly, it'stoo complicated for the needs of most boards. And so what we need to do is we need togive your board members a simple and practical road map. And so it starts with themain motion. So when you hear main motion, you think what? Type it into the chatfunctionality. When you hear main motion, you think main what?

Susan:Right? Exactly. So when you hear main motion, you should just be thinking mainquestion. That's all it is. It's just a question. Now some people say to me, "Susan, youcan't have more than one motion on the floor at a time." And I always say, "That's not alltogether true. You can only have one main motion." Okay? So wherever you are, justsay that out loud, "I can only have one main motion." Right? You can only have onemain motion, but you can have multiple other motions or ask other questions that are inservice of the main motion. Okay? So let's just take a moment and look at some of otherquestions, right? So other motions, all of these motions are in service of the mainmotions.

Susan:So the second in the fundamental motions is the amendment. So wherever you are sayit out loud, "Amendment." The amendment allows you to add something to or subtractsomething from the main motion, right? So really powerful. You're breaking it down,you're slowing down the conversation, so you're not talking about the whole question,we're only talking about a small part of the question.

Susan:Now the next one, motion number three, is called, amend the amendment. And whatthat does is it allows us to focus our discussion even more, so I'm adding something to,or subtracting something from the amendment.

Susan:The fourth motion is refer to a committee. So if you're somewhere, just pitch it behindyou. If you are in an organization that doesn't trust your committees, you've got a teambuilding opportunity, because your committees have been created in order to save yourtime, your energy, your life, right? So refer to a committee is when you take the questionand you say, "We're going to give it to this committee so that they can come back to uswith a new question."

Susan:Number five is postpone to a definite or certain time. So it's, "I don't have time to vote onthis right now, or I need more information. So I want to postpone this to our nextmeeting." What's great about a postponement is that when you postpone it, you're

indicating to the recording secretary when you want that item put back on the agenda,right? So postponing to a certain or definite time.

Susan:The next one, I'm not even going to ask you to even use this one. However, we see itmisused a lot, and it's called lay on the table. You only lay a motion on the table in lieuof more pressing business. Now I'm not going to be able to get through all of thesemotions today, but if you want any information on any of these, you can go to mywebsite, and you can get access to my Robert's Rules Made Simple Individual TrainingProgram, which goes into further explanation with videos and in meeting examples.

Susan:So let's look at the last one. So number six, and what's great is I've given you seven,and now I'm only telling you I want you to learn six. So I've kind of taken the burdendown a little. And the last one, I love this one, it makes my hands want to go up in theair, right? It's called previous question. So when I say previous question, you thinkprevious what? Can you type that into the chat functionality?

Susan:So when I say previous question, you think previous motion, right? So what this issaying is, "Hey, you guys, do you want to stop talking about that previous motion andvote?" And if two thirds of you say, "Yes, I want to stop talking." Then that means youvoted for the previous question, and you're voting on that previous motion. Right? So Ithink I saw a question here. Maybe I, could you please take an example of the motionand go. So I'm going to be taking an example of a motion. I won't be able to get throughall seven in this example, but you will be left with information that will support you inbeing able to get a little bit more. So yes. Yes, go ahead, Joan? I think, there you go.

Joan:Joan is back in the house just to say, we'll keep track of, unless you feel a need to lookat the questions, we'll make sure we're capturing them. But I didn't want you to havedivided attention here. Other than the fact that you have a very engaged audience here,all yelling motions and hands. Actually Trevor, I can see Trevor's doing it backstage too.His fixed mindset was here.

Susan:Now he's opening up.

Joan:I will say that one of the best books I have read is a book by Carol Dweck, which iswhere you got-

Susan:Yes, it's called Fixed and Growth.

Joan:Yep. I cannot recommend it highly enough. It's a very simple construct that you actuallyillustrated beautifully with hand gestures. Okay. I'm going away now. Goodbye.

Susan:Bye, Joan. I love Carol, and yes, that's exactly where I got it. I added the hand motions,because it really so resonates with me. And what I want to lovingly say is that I spend alot of my life in the fixed mindset, and it wasn't in until I really started recognizing it andbecoming the observer of my own way of communicating and engaging that all of asudden I was able to open myself up. And so this idea of being more intentional inasking these questions of your board members and then really being intentionalcollectively, your board meetings become energetically in that context so different, sodifferent.

Susan:So moving forward from the seven fundamental motions, we're going to move on to lawnumber two, and this is an activity that I'm going to invite you to please steal, right?

Susan:Please do this on your board. Because one of the things that I have found is thatRobert's Rules of Order is one of the most overestimated that you overestimate whatthe person in front of you knows. And so it naturally creates an intimidatingenvironment. And so we're going to move to the next screen, and we're going to see anactivity that is just simply allowing your board members to just do a self assessmentpublicly. So you want everyone to just mark their own number or identify their ownnumber. So I'm going to ask you to do this publicly too, in the chat. I want you to just tellme, where are you with Robert's Rules of Order? Are you brand new? Do you fearRobert's Rules of Order, or do you hate it? Do you get lost easy? Are you comfortable in

a meeting? So you get lost, but you're able to kind of get yourself back on track, or doyou feel like you're the individual that can teach it, right?

Susan:So if you can just take a moment and just kind of type in your numbers so that we cansee kind of who's in the room, and this is such a valuable exercise for you to do withyour board members, because as you can see, even within this webinar, we've gotpeople who are ones, two point fives, we've got lots of threes, which is very normal, wehave several fours. We don't have that many fives in the room, we got a one and a half,right? Somebody who's between that one and two. So if we kind of move forward on theslides, I'm going to ask you to click through this one more time, go ahead and clickforward. Because what I want you to see, and you're going to have to do a lot of clickshere because we've got some activities.

Susan:So here we have what most meetings look like, right? We've got a lot of people underthe line. And so when you think about this related to the fundamentals of Robert's, ifeveryone on your board doesn't understand the fundamentals, it's really going to impactthe way your meetings run. So the goal is, clicking one more forward, the goal is to geteverybody above the line. I mean, this really is our goal. We don't want everyone tobecome experts and teach it. You don't need to become a parliamentarian. But what weneed to do is commit collectively to understand the fundamentals of this language. Andso moving forward, what I want you to understand is that ultimately all of this, thereason Robert's has been created, why we're trying to have a language for handling ourbusiness is because we want to save ourselves some time. Meetings should not be awaste of time.

Susan:I always tell my husband, he's always like, "How are you doing another Robert'straining?" And I'm like, "It's because I am saving people time." So I want you to just seethis equation. And again, I'd invite you to use this in your organization. So clicking on tothe next screen, I want you in the chat box to just put in what comes up. Time equalswhat? Time equals what? Okay. So go ahead and just type that in, because most of ushave been kind of programmed to kind of believe that time equals putting it in the chatfunctionality, seeing what people say time equals. We have a lot of people here. I love it.I think you've already kind of gotten my energy, right? We've been told that time equals,

go ahead and click the slide. It equals money, right? But what I want all of us to reallyanchor into, moving on to the next slide, is that time equals life.

Susan:And when we think about this, we are saving each other's life by really up leveling theway we run our meetings. And I want all of you to start asking this question, clickingforward on the slides, is was this meeting a good use of our life? And if the answer tothat question is no, if we're walking out of meetings, and the energy is here, and thecontext is group, then you have a training opportunity. Because I don't know about you,but I don't have life to waste. And I hope that you're feeling from my energy and from mylife force that I take this very serious, but it's in order to be of service to people's lives.The good work that human beings do on this planet happens in the meetings that wehold. We have family meetings, we have business meetings, we have board meetings,we have meetings. That's the way we affect change and take action. And so reallyperfecting and, and being vested in that is important. So meetings should not be awaste of life.

Susan:So let's continue to move forward because I want us to go back to the sevenfundamental motions. If you can do me a favor and type in here, I move. I wanteveryone to just type in there so that you can feel it. Usually I have people say it outloud, but we're going to use the technology the way we have the technology. I want youto just put in there, I move. Okay? So when you want to ask a question or make amotion, this is how you start. Not, "I want to make a motion that, I motion that." It's just,"I move. I move to make a main motion." Right? I move. That's where it starts.

Susan:So let's just go through these again, clicking on the slide. Number one, I to make a mainmotion. Okay. The next one, clicking again. I move to amend the main motion. Let'sclick the slide again. I move to amend the amendment. Let's click the slide again. Imove to refer this to the finance committee to report back at our next regularlyscheduled session. The next one is I move to postpone this to a definite time to our nextregularly scheduled meeting. The next one, we're not even going to say, because I don'twant you to say it. And then the final one is I move the previous question, right? So westart all questions, all motions with the same thing.

Susan:Now take a deep breath with me, cause one of the spaces we waste so much time inmeetings is that we debate a motion before the motion is on the floor. How many of youhave ever heard someone kind of talking, and they're talking through something andthey're like, "Okay, and so now I want to make a motion." We need to really teach ourboard members the importance of clarifying their question and then debating thatquestion after it's been seconded. We waste a whole lot of life by being in meetingswhere people are just debating and talking and talking and talking and talking, and thensomebody finally goes, "Should we make a motion?" You're wasting life when you findyourself in that conversation.

Susan:Now the one other thing I want you to do is I want you to think about this is that thereare only two things happening on your agenda at any given moment. When you look atyour agenda, you should ask yourself, "Is this an information item, or is this a businessitem?" Let me say that again. When you look at your agenda, you should ask yourself,"Is this an information item or is this a business item?" I want to lovingly let you knowthat Robert's Rules of Order is only used to handle your business. Information items areof no consequence. It's just information, it's just data.

Susan:And so I always say, as a chair, your job is to move through information items as quicklyas possible. But when you're handling your business, there is a rhythm to Robert'sRules of Order, okay? There is a rhythm to Robert's Rules of Order. And when you starthandling your business, because business is when you start making decisions. Are wegoing to pay for that? Are we going to hire this person? Are we going to expand this?Are we going to go there? Are we going to spend this? You're making a decision. That'sbusiness. Action is going to be taken as a result of the conversation that's happeningtoday.

Susan:So moving on to the next slide, I want us to just kind of see an example quickly of eachof these seven fundamental motions. We're not going to be able to go through fullexamples, I'm going to just show you that in a moment, so it sounds like this. I want youto see it written and please, if you are somewhere that you can speak out loud, this is alanguage. I want to encourage you to read what you see in black on the screen.

Susan:So a main motion, which is the foundation of handling your business. You have to makea main motion before you start handling your business starts with, I move to make amain that you can say, "I move that." That's also proper, but you can also say, "I move tomake a main motion that." Number two, looking at the next one, is I move to amend themain motion by striking out blank or adding blank, right? So that's the way you say it. Soif you're somewhere that can read these out loud, indulge yourself, because this is likelearning another language. Number three, help me out here, ready? Everybody readthat. I move to amend the amendment by striking out blank or adding blank, okay?

Susan:Motion number four? I move to refer this to, and you have to state the committee, thefinance committee, the lumber committee, the bylaws committee, a committeeappointed by the chair to report back at our next meeting or May 5th or in 20 minutes,right? You have to refer it back and the time.

Susan:Number five, I move to postpone this to. When do you want to postpone this to? Ournext meeting? Our may meeting? Our June meeting?

Susan:The next one, number six, this is the proper way to use this one. I've graded outbecause most people use it incorrectly. You only lay a motion on the table in lieu ofmore pressing business. Many times people will move to table, and they don't realizebecause the chair doesn't realize in lieu of what pressing business. And so the chair willallow the table to happen, but what happens is when you lay a motion on the table, youneed a whole other motion to take it from the table. Can you see how that's differentthan a postponement when you're indicating to the recording secretary, when you wantthat motion to be listed on the agenda.

Susan:And the last one here, number seven is I move the previous question, right? So this is it.I mean, I want to stop talking, and I want to start voting. If you've ever been in a meetingwhere people are just talking and talking and talking, and it sounds like everybody's kindof on the same page, you can say, "I move the previous question." And that indicatesthat you desire to vote, to stop talking and vote on the previous motion. All right, so let'stake an intentional deep breath in, cause I always say breathing is a good thing, and

we're going to move on to the next slide, because I'm going to show you examples ofthe main motion, the amendment, and amend the amendment.

Susan:Okay. And we're going to show you making these motions as well as how to vote onthem. Okay? We can go to the next to the next slide. So in my Robert's Rules MadeSimple Individual Training Program, I go over the seven fundamental motions and muchmore, but what it will do is it will give you examples of what it looks like to make themotion and then to vote on that motion. And I'm a visual learner. I, even though it's soweird, this is a true story, I have made it through probably zero fiction books in my life.I'm not a reader of fiction, but Robert's, for some reason I can read it and not fall asleep.Everything else puts me to sleep. But I'm not a reader. And so that's why I made thevideo is I know there's a whole host of people on the planet that don't enjoy, or can'treally learn from just reading the book and-

Susan:... don't enjoy or can't really learn from just reading the book. And so we've created avideo so that you can actually see it. And what's great is, it's an online class. So each ofyour board members can kind of move through it at their own pace. Now let's look atthis real quickly, because I want you wherever you are to find a rhythm, just snap yourfingers, snap your fingers, snap your fingers, right? Snap your fingers. There it is. Hereit is. Here it is. We're creating a rhythm. Okay? Because a rhythm is predictable and arhythm feels good, right? So there's a sense of stability in a rhythm. And that's what wewant to create in your meetings when we're handling your business. Information, we gothrough a little faster, the rhythm is faster. But business, we got to slow it down. When Ido my training for board chairs, one of the things I invite board chairs to do is to slowdown, right?

Susan:So it's that sense of slowing down their breathing, slowing down their thought processso that they can understand how to handle the rhythm of Robert's. So I'm going tointroduce you to this rhythm right now. So a question is asked, so the chair will say thenext item of business on the agenda is, and remember the chair's either going to say,the next item on the agenda is information item X, or is business item Z. And so if it's abusiness item, the chair will immediately ask for a motion because there's no discussionallowed on the floor before there is a question. And think about that from a kind of a justa logical standpoint. Why wouldn't we want discussion before there's a question?

Because it's not focused discussion and you invite human beings to talk. They'll justtalk. So we want to put a question on the floor that's about a specific item of businessand then invite questioning of that question. And we can pull the question apart. We canadd to it. We can build on it. We can refer it to someone. So ask the business question.

Susan:So the chair will say, is there a motion? And that starts the rhythm, a member will raisetheir hand. They'll say I move, right? They make a motion. They don't debate. Theydon't say anything else. They just make a motion. They ask a question. The chair thensays, is there a second? And the second signifies that somebody finds that topic worthyto discuss. Not that they agree, not that they disagree. It's that, okay, I want to spend alittle bit of my life discussing this question. If you don't, then don't second it. If a motiondoes not receive a second, the chair will simply say, the motion dies due to a lack of asecond and we will now move on to the next item on the agenda, which is. Okay. It justmeans that nobody else in the room wants to talk about it. Right?

Susan:So if a second occurs, then the chair repeats the motion. It's been properly moved andseconded that. And then at that time, if you can do me a favor, just kind of raise yourhand. When the chair says, is there any discussion, then you as the member can doone of two things, you can either debate for or against the motion or you can makeanother motion. So it's that sense of, I can debate this question or I can ask anotherquestion. So let's see this happening in real-time. So the next slide we're going to kindof all make a main motion. Okay? So on the count of three, I want everybody to readthis. Ready, 1, 2, 3, wherever you are. "I move to approve the request for $1,500 for theXYZ club to support the 52nd Annual United community Run." So this is where therhythm begins. There we go. Hey, Joan.

Joan:I have a question for you.

Susan:Yes.

Joan:That doesn't seem like a question to me. I learned few minutes ago that motion equalsquestion, "I move to approve the request for $1,500 for the XYZ club to support the52nd Annual United Community Run." Why is that a question?

Susan:It is a question because we haven't answered the motion. So when you think about aquestion, you say yes or no, to the question. Hey, you guys, do you want to donate$1,500? Right? And then people are either going to say yes or no. And it is a questionbecause we have to answer it.

Joan:Got it.

Susan:There it is, and I love it. You're thinking of it, someone else's is thinking of it, this is just aformal way, right? So you answer a motion. You answer this question at the point oftaking a vote, right? All of these motions will get voted on. Yeah. I want to donate$1,500. No way. I don't want to donate $1,500. So at the point that someone makes themotion. What I want you to understand is that's where the rhythm begins. And so thechair is going to... Moving on to the next slide.

Susan:The chair is going to say, is there a second? So go ahead and click on the slide. Andyou'll see the chair asks for a second. And Trevor, you're going to love me becausethere's lots of clicks on these next slides, right? The chair asks for a second and thenthe member will second. And then the chair repeats the motion. And then once the chairrepeats the motion, the chair is going to ask, is there any discussion? And at that timeyou can raise your hand and you can do one of two things and you can click that again.You can either debate for or against the main motion. I agree with the main motion. Youcan go ahead and click that Trevor. Or I disagree with the main motion. So you can clickthat Trevor. So he's going to do a lot of clicking for me, right?

Susan:So you debate for or against the motion or you make another motion. Okay. So that'sthe rhythm and I want you to just hear it and what I want you to understand, especially ifyou're a chair is it that rhythm creates trust, and it creates security, and it creates

well-being. It feels good. Right? But when people don't understand, what's the motion?What are we? Where are we? What are we? It all of a sudden becomes disconnected. Ialways says when people don't understand the process, then people start getting madat people. And so the process side of meetings is so important and this is the process.So let's go ahead and look at the process for handling our business.

Susan:So the next one is amendment. So someone raises their hand and they decide theywant to make an amendment. So they say, "I moved to amend the motion by striking out$1,500 and inserting a $1000." And kind of going back to what John said, "Remember,it's just a question." Hey, you guys, do you want to amend the motion by striking out1,500 and inserting a $1000? Someone seconds it and says, "Sure, I'd like to talk aboutthat." Right? And then the rhythm begins. Okay?

Susan:So going onto the next slide, we're going to see the rhythm of Robert's unfold again. Sothe chair is going to ask for a second. He's going to receive a second from a member.And then the chair is going to repeat the motion. Now, just think about this. It's superimportant. And it says in Robert's, the chair has to repeat the motion for the motion orthe question to become property of the board. It is so important that you repeat themotion so that you know what you're talking about. How many times you've ever been ina meeting and you don't know what the motion is. It's like, what are we talking about?

Susan:So the chair should repeat that motion so that everyone is clear so that when the chairsays, is there any discussion? And we click forward and the members raise their hand,the member can either debate for or against the amendment. I agree with theamendment or I disagree with the amendment or... And you can just keep clickingTrevor. Or I can make another motion. Right? I can ask another question. So let's take adeep breath here. Okay? Because the one thing I want you to realize is that Robert's isgenius at really focusing discussion, but many boards are not genius at focusing theirdiscussion. So the only thing that you should be discussing right now is the amendment.That's it. We're not discussing the XYZ charity where we're talking about, do we want$1,500 or a $1000?

Susan:But what many human beings do is a main motion is made someone makes anamendment, and then the chair calls on somebody, and then that person starts debatingthe main motion that is wasting life. We need to get your board members vested intaking care of each other's life by really keeping a rigor around how they're debatingbusiness items. Right? So I am only discussing the amendment at this time. So at thattime, I raised my hand. We'll move on because what's going to happen is somebody'sgoing to make another amendment. So I'm sharing right now, the main motion, theamendment, and amend the amendment because these are the three most widelyused, but they're also the three most widely misused. So moving on to the next slide,we're going to see an amendment to the amendment.

Susan:So clicking on, so that we can see it. "I moved to amend the amendment by striking outa 1000 and inserting 500." Okay? So now the chair gets in, they staying in the rhythmand the chair should ask for a what? Moving on to the next slide. The chair asks for asecond. Now, what will happen? And I'm just going to put this in here. It's that someorganizations have created a relationship with what they call a friendly amendment.There is no such thing as a friendly amendment. Let me just say that again. There is nosuch thing as a friendly amendment. So many organizations use it and it creates somuch confusion that Robert's has now addressed friendly amendments in the book. Andwhat Robert says is, "If somebody says, I would like to make a friendly amendment andhe, or she has been recognized, you can just treat it as an amendment." Okay? It's nota friendly amendment.

Susan:So treat an amendment just like an amendment. So let's move on to the next screen.Because I want you to see the rhythm. So do not make friendly amendments. They'renot friendly because they create so much confusion. All right. So let's go on to the nextslide here because the rhythm gets interrupted when we do things like friendlyamendment, right? So we've just making an amendment to amendment. And so nowthe chair asks, is there a second? Someone seconds it, the chair repeats the motionand then asks, is there any discussion? Members can raise their hand, they can do oneof two things. They can debate for or against the motion or they can make anothermotion. All right. So let's move on here. Because I've shown you how to make themotions. Now I want to talk about the importance of voting.

Susan:So let's look at voting before we move on to kind of questions and answers. So let's goon to the next slide because what I want you to see, and you know me, we're going togo back to physical cues. Could you please make a pyramid? Right? So if you couldmake a pyramid with your fingers, everything in your meetings on the outside of thepyramid is information. Everything on the inside of the pyramid is business. So when Ilook at a meeting agenda, what I do is I will look at it and I will say, is it an informationitem? Is it a business item? If it's a business item, I draw a straw, a little triangle next toit. Okay. And that triangle is where I'm actually going to take some notes. So I know thatthis business item is going to require Robert's Rules of Order.

Susan:You don't use Robert's Rules of Order for information items. You only use Robert'sRules of Order to handle your business. And in order to handle your business, you haveto get inside what's called the pyramid of precedence. Now it's very interesting becauseit for years I'd say that word precedence, and that's how most of us see that word. But inRobert's, they pronounce it as precedence. And precedence means, this goes beforethat. So take your fingers and open up your thumbs like this. How do you get inside thepyramid? You make a main motion, punk. So someone says, "I moved to approve therequest of $1,500 for the X, Y, Z club to support the 52nd Annual Community Run," andboom. And it gets seconded, now you're inside the pyramid. The second motion thathas been made was an amendment to strike out $1,500 and insert a $1000, and thethird motion that's now inside the pyramid of precedence is the amendment to theamendment, which is to strike out a 1000 and insert 500.

Susan:Now, are there other questions that we can ask? Yes, but when people go through mytrainings, one of the things that I invite them to do is to slow down, to speed up. Getfamiliar and comfortable with the main motion, amendment, and amend theamendment. And then all those other motions just make so much more sense. So we'regoing to go through these. So in the type functionality, if we were to clear this item ofbusiness from the pyramid, how many votes would we have to take? So just go aheadand type that into the chat functionality. Go ahead and type that into the chatfunctionality. How many votes, if we wanted to clear this item of business and be donewith this item of business and move on in the agenda? How many votes would we haveto take on the way down?

Susan:All right. I'm loving it. This feels good. Well, okay. So I see threes, I see four's, I seeones, right? So what that says is it's really important that everybody understands thevoting process. Right? We've got a lot of ones. We've got a lot of threes. We've gotsome fours, so there's a little bit of confusion. Okay. So if I want to clear this item from abusiness and Trevor, you're going to click on this. You're going to click, I vote on theamendment to the amendment. So go ahead, click it. I vote on the amendment to theamendment, and then I vote on the amendment, and then I vote on the main motion,and then we're out of the pyramid. Okay? So we need three votes. Now, let me justshow you what this looks like real quickly. We're going to slow it down.

Susan:So let's click to the next slide because what I want you to see here is what happens ifamending the amendment fails. Okay? So if the chair says, is there any furtherdiscussion on amending the amendment and no one raises their hand. That's anindicator it's time to vote. Seeing no further discussion will now vote on the amendmentto the amendment. So, if it fails... Go ahead and click it. What happens is... And click itagain. You're going to have lots of clicks here, Trevor. The amendment... And click itagain. The amendment and the main motion they stay the same. Okay. So I want you tojust see that. So we then go back down to the amendment. Now, what happens if theamendment to the amendment passes? That's what I want you to see here.

Susan:So if the amendment to the amendment passes, everyone watch this. Okay. So we'regoing to click on the screen here and you'll see if the amendment to the amendment...Can you do that a little bit slower? Maybe just go back and do that one more time,Trevor, just so they can see it. If the amendment to the amendment passes, it nowbecomes... If you just click. It now becomes the new amendment. Okay? So it wasmodified and kind of moving it over. So there's a little bit of an error there, but you cansee that when you amend the amendment, it now becomes the new amendment.Clicking one more time. Now we have the main motion and the new amendment. Okay?Now just breathe that in because what I want you to do is understand we're now on thenext motion, which is the amendment.

Susan:So click the slide. We're left with these two motions. And the chair will say, is there anyfurther discussion on the amendment? At that time remember, when the chair says, is

there any discussion? You can do one of two things. You can make another motion oryou can debate for or against the highest-ranking motion, which right now is theamendment. I agree with the amendment. I disagree with the amendment, but if nobodysays anything, that's an indication for the chair that it's time to vote.

Susan:So what happens if... And we'll just see this clicking on the next slide. What happens ifthe amendment fails? Right? So the chair says all in favor of the amendment? Aye, allopposed, no. What happens? Go ahead and click on the slides and you'll just see thatthe amendment just simply goes away. So clicking again, it just kind of simply goesaway. The main motion stays exactly the same. And some people are like, "Well, justSusan didn't we just waste a whole bunch of our life." No, we didn't. We've determined.And we are now more secure that we want $1,500. We don't want 500. We don't want a1000. We're feeling more secure with 1500.

Susan:So clicking on that again all the way through, click through. So it's all gone becausewe're going to go to the next thing we're going to see... But what happens if theamendment passes? Okay, this is where people get lost. So I want to just make surethat you're kind of seeing this because the chair now says, is there any furtherdiscussion on the amendment? Which is to strike out 1500 and insert 500 and then thechair will say, All in favor, all opposed. Let's say it passes, the amendment passes. Let'ssee what happens. It now becomes... And this is way off in the configure. It nowbecomes the new main motion. All right? So we're now down to the main motion and toclear this item of business, we vote on the main motion. So as you move up thepyramid, so you must vote down in the same order, up and down when you're usingmain motion, amendment, and amend the amendment. All right. So everybody take adeep breath.

Susan:We're going to move on to the next slide here, because that main motion changes. Andthen to get out of the pyramid, you vote on that main motion and we're done with thatitem of business. So what I do want to just assure you is that there is so muchinformation to support you. If you're enjoying what you're seeing here, there'sinformation for every size board on my website, Roberts Rules Made Simple. There's aprogram called the Robert's Rules Made Simple Individual Training Program. Andwhat's so powerful about this is it will walk you through the seven fundamental motions

used in most meetings. And we'll give you examples of how to make the motion andalso how to vote on the motion. Now what's super powerful about this is that theindividual program, once you buy it, it will ask you if you would like to upgrade and get aboard license. And the board license gives you the right to be able to give up to 20board members, 12 months of access to the Individual Training Program for just $300.

Susan:And so I want to make this affordable for boards so that they can start training theirboard members. Now, if you don't have any budget right now, and you need to start withfree content, I've got some free content that I want to make sure that I give to you. Youcan go to Roberts Rules Made Simple, and you can sign up for my free video library.And if you are a board chair, I encourage you to go to my Chair With Confidence onlinetraining, and you can sign up to receive my free E-Guide. And you can put your email inthere, receive the free E-Guide on scripts for board chairs that use Robert's Rules ofOrder. It is a powerful document that you can find at Roberts Rules Made Simple. I thinkalso you can provide your email with Joan, is that correct? I think that Joan will also takeyour emails if you're interested in getting those scripts. And I will make sure that you canget the scripts either way. I don't know if that was... We can do it. We'll figure it out.

Joan:We'll figure it out.

Susan:Well, look at us. On the fly, we'll figure it out. So, Joan, I think this is a good time rightnow to field any kind of questions or thoughts that you saw come up before I kind ofbutton up the presentation.

Joan:Fabulous. Should we ditch the slides for a minute?

Susan:Let's see faces that's better.

Joan:Face is better? So I have a couple of questions and then there were some questionsthat came up and I find... Well, let me ask you this question. What do you think is the

most common mistake that boards make using Robert's Rules or what do you think isthe most common...

Susan:Yeah. I have a video in my video library that answers that question. And I'll tell you oneof the top two that comes to my mind is number one, is that they're not teachingeveryone the basics. Most boards say, "Do you want to be a board member? ThankGod. You're a board member. Man, we needed board members." And then we say, "Oh,and by the way, we use Robert's Rules of Order." And we have a piece of paper that weprint in a manual or an E-Manual that we give. And that's really the extent of the supportbecause lets be honest most parliamentarians do make this as interesting as watchingpaint dry. But I do believe that I'm doing more than just teaching Robert's.

Joan:Right.

Susan:And so this is about saving time, energy, and life. So, number one, it's not teachingeveryone on your board the basics. So you're operating at a deficiency. And thennumber two, because we're not really being intentional about talking about boardculture. People are using Robert's as a weapon. How many times have you been in ameeting? And you hear someone go, point of order, they say it like that I kill you. And ifyou really understand what is a point of order, a point of order is actually a verygenerous thing that you're doing. When you're on a high-functioning board, you're lettingthe chair know that there is a point of order that he or she has missed. You're notcrucifying. You're not killing. You're not maiming, you're not trying to go after your boardchair, you're informing and you're helping, and you're aiding, and you're being of supportto your board chair. So point of order should never be used as a weapon. Robert'sshould not be used as a weapon. And when you see that happening, you have atraining opportunity.

Joan:So really quickly actually point of order, if I'm a board member and I say, point of order,what I'm actually saying is?

Susan:You're just saying, that there's a point that you've missed in parliamentary procedure.You are missing a point.

Joan:Right.

Susan:You're just informing the chair.

Joan:Good. One of the things, and there are questions. I promise.

Joan:One of the things... and there are questions, I promise, I just get first dibs because I'mthe host, right? So, I find that many boards are having a discussion and then decide tomake a motion, because they don't actually know what that motion is until... I mightargue, well, we didn't actually know what motion to make until we had somediscussions.

Susan:Yeah. So I'm going to say two things because this is huge. It's hugely important. One ofthe things that Robert's says is, there's a difference between a formal board and asmaller informal board. Many times informal boards will operate a little bit differently,where there will be more discussion in the beginning and then they'll come up with whatthey want, but there is some boards that are doing that in their board of directors. Andthey're doing that in these formal spaces and that's not the space for that. You shouldrefer to a committee the subjects that you want to have formal questions come to yourboard with. Okay?

Susan:So if you're in a larger, more formal committee, or board, excuse me, then you shouldknow what business you're handling before you walk in, and if you don't, delegate it tocommittees and say, "We know that we want to do something related to XYZ, but couldyou come up with..." Because that's what your committees do. Your committees comeup with questions, they come up with proposals, they come up with main motions thatthey bring to the board. Right?

Joan:Yes, yes, yes.

Susan:So you're not wasting time.

Joan:Right, you've made my case, which is that the standing committees are supposed to doreal work and they come to the board with a proposal that becomes a main motion.

Susan:That's what a proposal is. A proposal is, "Hey, we all sat down. We hashed through thisand because we were a smaller group we didn't have the formality. We had a little bitmore leeway where we were able to put it down and form it and shape it. Now we wantto give that to you, but it already has form and because it has form we can be focused."

Joan:You bet.

Susan:Right. And that's what we need. Bring some form. That's what the main motion does is,it creates some structure or form for us to focus our discussion. You put 23 humanbeings in a room and you ask them to talk, they're going to talk.

Joan:You bet.

Susan:I want to say one other thing real quickly about the... When you refer things to acommittee, that proposal comes with an implied second, because the committee is anextension of the board and because everybody on the committee is saying, "Hey, wewant this proposal," so the committee is coming to the board with an implied second. Sothe chair can just ask for... Repeat the proposal and then ask for discussion.

Joan:Right. So part of what you're saying is that this notion that there's a discussion of 23people, which just by the way, some of the members of the lab here would give their eyeteeth to have 23 board members. Yeah, the point is that discussion that leads to amotion is usually something that should happen elsewhere.

Susan:Yeah.

Joan:So there's a bunch of questions here that actually have to do with the executive directorand not so much about Robert's Rules, so I don't know, you'll tell me. So, executivedirectors, there's questions here, "For our nonprofit the executive director is anon-voting member. Does this mean that the executive director cannot make a motion?"

Susan:I don't know what the organization's bylaws say. So I would say check your bylaws, butmany times non-voting members do not make motions, but they can debate motions.

Joan:Yes.

Susan:So again... And you have to figure out what your bylaws and your constitution say.

Joan:Right. Frances Cutshaw had said, "I feel confused about how a non-voting executivedirector can participate in healthy discussions and make informed suggestions foramendments." And it sounds like if your bylaws... Bylaws might be silent on all of this,but the notion would be that there would be an expectation that the executive directorwould be involved in the discussion.

Susan:Yeah, that's why you have non-voting members, because they offer an expertise. Andso they should be speaking to the motion. Now, what we don't want to do is have anexecutive director that just kind of takes over and talks about... We got to focus thediscussion, right? So it's specifically about whatever the highest ranking motion is.

Susan:I worked with a group where... And it was the only group that really... I feel like thisneeds to roll out bigger, but they gave me, they indulged me, they gave me literallythree different sessions to teach them how to debate effectively. And it was amazing tojust watch the metamorphosis of that group, because all of a sudden people were atstake for every time they opened their mouth in a meeting. They were considering themotion that was on the floor, they were considering am I being a group, am I being ateam? They were adding intentionality to really how they were adding their voice to theroom, which impacts everybody.

Joan:Absolutely. Actually, I'm working on a project on my consulting side, ex officio andnon-voting, are those the same things?

Susan:Oh, I don't know if I can give you the right answer to that question, so. They're similar,but I don't know if they're exactly the same.

Joan:It may in fact... That again may be something-

Susan:Ex officio means they used to be an official, right? Like I used to be the president andnow I'm ex officio. And then non-voting just means I'm a non-voting member that hassome position in the organization.

Joan:Yeah, I think they get used interchangeably, but I'm not sure they are in factinterchangeable,

Susan:I don't believe they are.

Joan:Marking that for my own to come back to this group, because it's not a Robert's Rulesquestion.

Susan:That'd be my guess.

Joan:So, again, I think Frances does talk about... Here, let's see. "Non-profits should allowED..." So, right, these are not really Robert's questions, Frances. Like should the ED beallowed to vote or should not the ED be allowed to vote, those are actually questionsthat get answered and are governed by the bylaws of your organization.

Joan:I get that question all the time. Should EDs have a vote, should EDs not have a vote?And I think it's a very good and important question organizations should really talkabout, but it is not necessarily something that has direct relevance to how Robert'sRules operates.

Susan:Yeah.

Joan:I wanted you to talk for just a minute more, or tease out, how it is that Robert's Rules OfOrder help people on their diversity journey?

Susan:Yeah. So, for me it really is about creating a safe space. And I'll get up on my own littlesoap box for a moment, but there is no safer space than team. There is no more diversespace than team. When you think about a context that is accepting of race, religion, sex,belief, color, and when you can hold a space for difference, and you can create a spacefor the voice of the majority and the voice of the minority, and then we can actually all dosomething together, not just stand around and be diverse together.

Susan:That's what we want. We want to create a safe space so that differences can be held ina respectful way and change can happen. That's what I'm interested in and I believethere is no more diverse context, when it's really healthy, than team.

Joan:Well, I also think too, Susan, that Robert's Rules provides a tool or a framework for adiversity of perspectives to be heard, right, and valued.

Susan:Yeah.

Joan:I think our core precept of the value of diversity around any table, right, is thatconversation is richer for my lived experience versus yours, versus, versus fill-in-the-blank, right, and that because people have, if you have a diverse group, right, thatit is even more important that there be that kind of construct. There might be powerdynamics at play, right. You might have a sort of... Let's play it out, you might have awhite board chair and a small number of folks of a marginalized community on theboard, right? If you don't have a framework to level the playing field, some of thosedynamics can be at play in a way that's problematic.

Susan:Yeah. And I think that that framework is so important, but the question that I don't thinkpeople ask about diversity, because everybody's talking about diversity training, butreally why do we desire diversity? We desire diversity because we are stronger whenwe are a team and when we're together. The opposite of not having diversity... I don'tknow how to say it. Maybe it's just a feeling that I have in my brain, is the sense of ahigh functioning team can hold the diversity and wants to hold the diversity.

Susan:And the sad thing that I see, and maybe it's the job security that I have, is thatunfortunately this structure of Robert's is really misunderstood and many timesweaponized in order to oppress those communities that it was designed to support. Andso we need to make sure that we are holding the intention of Robert's Rules Of Orderjust as much as we're holding the rules of Robert's Rules Of Order.

Joan:Yes. Absolutely right. There's another question that this whole group team thing raisesfor me with Robert's Rules, right, is that it felt to me... I wrote down, "Chicken/egg, teammeetings," right. I guess I could make the argument and then you can disagree with me,right? Sorry, my phone just fell over. If I don't have a team, right, and I don't have a

pretty good leader of that team at the table, Robert's Rules isn't going to turn me into ateam.

Susan:Well, I think what I've seen is that... Yeah, I think you're right. I'm going to agree withthat, but what I've seen is that the boards that I work with have been tasked with usingRobert's Rules Of Order, it's part of what we need to use, it's part of the mandate of theboard. And so why not use it as a team building tool? That's the question that I'm puttingout there is that it's either going to work with you and for you, or it's going to workagainst you and...

Joan:It's an interesting thing because team-building has a certain pejorative associated withit, right? If you think team building, you think ropes, courses and icebreakers, right?Now, I happen to actually believe very deeply in team-building exercises.

Susan:That's so great.

Joan:I just happen to think that they can happen very creatively. They can happen with ashared reading that becomes a book discussion, right? It can happen... I don't haveropes courses nearby and most people have been virtual for the last 18 months, buteven learning Robert's Rules as a framework for the diversity of thought andperspectives, to show up at a table, that in and of itself is a team building exercise.

Susan:Huge. Huge. Huge. And I want to just say, I am a group to team family. I use this withmy children. I'm a group to team marriage. I'm a group to team boardroom. I want moreteam in my life. I don't think there's a single human being that wakes up in the morningand is like, "I want more group in my life," but I do believe that there's a deep wanting inhuman beings as individuals for more team. And I wanted to say, I have a uniqueperspective of this. This is what I studied when I went into my master's program.

Susan:I was in college and I'll just quickly go through where this came from, but I was incollege and I was the student body vice-president, and I had the most amazing

experience with Annie-Lou. She was my president and we were a team and we just goteach other. And I was so motivated. I wanted to come back and do it again next year.And then, I ran as president and then I had a horrible experience.

Susan:My vice president and I, we couldn't get along. He didn't like me and I didn't trust himand it got in the school newspaper and I was so exhausted by the end. I could have runagain, but I didn't have any more energy to give. And I think about these executivedirectors and these board members and these well-intended people who givethemselves to an organization, but they walk away feeling battered, bruised, upset, andtired, and it propelled me into my master's program. And that's where I really startedwondering what was the difference. It came to me with these two words.

Susan:The difference was, Landon and I were stuck in group, and Annie and I figured out howto generate the experience of team because team is not a destination. Team is anexperience that we just got to keep creating over and over again. My parents' 42 yearmarriage, they didn't end as team, they kept creating team. I had the privilege to see themost sacred team, fun team ever. I got to see it modeled day after day between theirrelationship. So I'm a really lucky girl. Like with respects to... My mom and dad didn't getthere and then they were done, they did it, experience conversation, conversation afterconversation. And so that's what I like to bring into boards is this idea of how do youleverage a tool that you need to use, Robert's Rules Of Order, and then really get themost out of it. Your board should be operating as a team. And the culture of your teammatters.

Joan:So-

Susan:I'm on my soap box. I'm sorry.

Joan:No, no, I'm glad you brought your soapbox with you today. First of all, you can't have arelationship for 42 years and not feel like you are partners who are part of a team, andthat it evolves over time based on circumstances and life experience. Any of us whohave been in long-term relationships would just say amen to that.

Joan:But I want to close us out and then let you do your last slide by saying that one of thethings we really have to focus in on here is, why is it important? Why does it matter thatyour board is a team at all? We have made a presumption through the course of thistime together with Susan, that we want a team as opposed to a group. And there is abook that I bet you are familiar with, by Richard Chait, called, Governance AsLeadership.

Susan:Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joan:Governance As Leadership, one of the chapters are sort of one of my big takeawaysfrom that book, which is almost as good as a book that a woman named Joan Garrywrote, is that a high functioning board has to be a team.

Susan:Yeah.

Joan:Right. If your board is going to make really great decisions on behalf of the organizationin the service of its mission, it has to be a team. And there is no more important time inwhich your board has to be a team, then a period in which the organization isvulnerable, like a crisis, or like a leadership transition. So it is something that you don'twant to just hope that maybe someday you'll get, it's something you have to build. Andit's something that you have to commit to, because it's essential to a thriving nonprofitthat your board constantly be working at an effort to be a team, where the whole isgreater than the sum of its parts.

Joan:Where every single person is wearing the organization's hat and nobody is wearing theirindividual agenda hat, and because I am a huge baseball fan, where if somebody blewa double play, that I'm on a team where somebody will come to me and say, "Hey, whydon't we field some grounders after the game because the outcome of the gamedepends on all of us working together."

Joan:So, the notion that Robert's Rules Of Order is a team builder and is part of what it takesto be a team is actually, to me, a huge aha moment that Susan Leahy brought to us thisafternoon, and you may not be able to see all of this, but TJ for Governor just said,'Thank you, Joan Garry, and team." And you're right, TJ, I like to think that that's true.And if it is true, it's because we work at it. So, Susan, I'll let you have the last word.

Susan:Yeah. And I'm going to piggyback on what you say is that my clients have been comingto me and many times they'd come to me because they think they have a Robert'sRules Of Order problem. The issue is deeper. And it is about really being intentionalabout setting a powerful and... an intentional board culture, where we care about eachother's lives.

Susan:Because this is what I want. I want more of this in my life. I want more of this in your life.I want to create this and I think that this is a worthwhile mission because the work thatorganizations do, they can do better work if they run better meetings and you can runbetter meetings if you really care about the culture of your board. And Robert's Rules OfOrder is a tool and it can set you up for success, but really doing that training on boardboard culture is key.

Susan:So I appreciate you having me. Thank you all of you out there for lending a little bit ofyour life to me today. I don't take that lightly. Your life is important, my life is important,and the work that you're doing is important. So, thank you so much. If you want to gethold of me, you can go to Robert's Rules Made Simple, and again, you can sign up forthe free video library that is there, or you can go to my Chair With Confidence program,sign up for my free scripts for board chairs and check out any of the products or reachout to me to do some coaching and consulting.

Joan:Susan, you can see in the thread you got a lot of love here, and a lot of appreciation foryour time today and for your expertise and for your enthusiasm about something we allcare a lot about, which is making sure that we're doing everything we can to build themost effective nonprofits we can, so. Susan Leahy, thank you so much. Thanks to

everybody who joined us this afternoon and I hope you have a good rest of the day,and, Susan, thanks again.

Susan:Thank you. Bye. Happy meetings.