why does the most natural scale start on 'c', instead of 'a'_ _ piano forum
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5/27/2015 whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?|PianoForum
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silphPSSilverMemberJr.Member
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whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?on:October31,2011,08:15:30AM
(thispostisedittedtorephrasemyquestion,becausenowtwothreepeoplemisunderstoodit!i'llgetitrighteventually..!)
idon'tknowifthisisa"stupid,unpractical'question,buti'vealwayswonderedaboutit.
whatarethereasons(whichi'mguessingareallonlyhistoricalreasons?)thatmajorscalewithnosharpsandnoflatsbeginswith'C',insteadof'A'?
themajorscalewithnosharpsandnoflatsstartsonanotethatwecallC.whyisthisnotecalledC,insteadofitbeingcalledA?
supposeiwassomeprehistoricguyplayingaroundwithastringedinstrument.supposethatimagicallydiscoverasystemoftwelvepitches(roughlycorrespondingtoourequaltempered12tones)thatdeliverpleasingtones,andthatilikethissystemsomuchthationlyeverusethissystem.`ithendiscoverthatapatternofnotesinaTTSTTTSpatternsoundssuperpleasing,andicallsuchasequenceofnotesa"majorscale".`isoonwillthenrealizethattherearetwelvesuchmajorscalespossibleusingmysystemoftwelvepitches.`ialsorealizethatit'sagoodideaifideem/one/ofthesetwelvemajorscalesasthemost"basic"scale,andthatinameallnotesnotpartofthisone"basic"scaleas"flatsandsharps".thisisagoodidea,becauseiseethatalltheothermajorscalesarecreatedbyusingflatsandsharps,andnowihaveauniquewayofidentifyingalltwelvescales,andalsowouldhavefoundawayofreferringtoalltwelveofmypossiblenotes.thissoundslikeagooddealtome!`sonowallthat'slefttodoisassignnamestoeachnoteofmy"basic"scale.idecidetousethelettersofthealphabet.
obviously,iwouldchoosetonamethenotesmymost"basic"scalestartingontheletter'A'.
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now,mylittlehypotheticalfantasyaboveiscloseenough(i'massuming)tohowthingsactuallycameabout.atanyrate,iamassumingthatifiaskwhatthemost"basic",and"simple",and"mostfundamentalstartingpoint"forascaleistous,itwouldbethemajorscalewithnoflatsandsharpsinit.tous,itistheCmajorscale.
myquestion:whyareweusinganamingsystemthatnamesthemostbasicscalestartingwiththeletter'C'?!itseemsarbitrarythatthenameofthefirstnoteofthemostbasicscaleweuseis/C/,insteadofA.whyC?
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pianoplayjlPSSilverMemberSr.Member
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#1on:October31,2011,08:39:29AM
Goodquestion.Idon'tknowbutI'lltrytoanswer.Becauseeverymajorscalefollowsthesamepatternietheintervalseperatingthenotesinascaleapplystoeverymajorscale.ForexampleinCmajorscaletheintervalseparatingCfromDwouldbeatone,right?andsoonuntilwereachEtoF.heretheintervalisasemitone.FromFtoBitwouldbeatonethatseparateseachnote.FromBbacktotonicCwouldagainbeasemitone.HencethispatternislikeTTSTTTS(TisfortonewhileSisforsemitone).Sothat'swhyCmajordoesnothaveasharporflat.ThispatternappliestoeveryMajorscale.IknowIhaven'texplaineditveryclearandproperly,butIhopethishelps.
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silphPSSilverMemberJr.Member
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#2on:October31,2011,08:43:37AM
no,no,thatwasn'twhatiwasasking,actually!iwasn'tasking"why,ifyoustartonthenoteonthepianocalled'C',andmakeamajorscalestartingonthatnote,doyougetascalethathitsonlythewhitenotes".
myquestioninsteadwas,"whyisthenotethatwecall'C'onthepiano,actuallynotcalled'A'instead?".ortoputitdifferently,whenyou'relearningtoread,youstartwiththeletterAbutwhenyou'relearningmusicyou(verystrangely)don'tstartwithA,butinsteadstartwiththeletterC.
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pianoplayjlPSSilverMemberSr.Member
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#3on:October31,2011,08:56:35AM
Ohsorry.maybethatCisoneof3notesthathave7octavesand8notesandthemiddleofthepianohappenstobewhereCishenceeveryonelearnswheremiddleCis.Isthisananswertoyourquestion?
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silphPSSilverMemberJr.Member
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#4on:October31,2011,09:28:30AM
no,i'mafraidthatisn'taddressingmyactualquestion!imaybeexplainingitnotwellenough,andyouareinteprettingwhati'mwritinginameaningthati/didn't/realizei'msaying,lol!
idon'tmean*literally*"whydopeoplelearnmiddleConthepianoastheirfirstnote".
letmetryaskingmyquestionmoreprecisely:iconsidertheCmajorscaletobethemost"simple"and"basic"scale.certainly,that'showit'sconsideredtobeinoursociety,wheneveranyonelearnsanythingaboutmusictheory:`westartwiththeCmajorscaleasourfirstmajorscalewelearn.itisconsideredthemostsimpleofthemajorscalesallothermajorscaleshaveasharporaflatinit.`welearnminorscalesonlyafterlearningmajorscales.welearnthataminorscalestartsonthe6thdegreeofamajorscaleorwelearnthataminorscaleisamajorscalewiththe3rd,6th,and7thflattened.
therefore,theCmajorscaleisthemost"simple"and"basic"scalethatwelearn.
so,itdoesn'tmakesensethatthis"basic"scalestartsonC.whyC?itseemscompletelyarbitrarytome!theonlynonarbitraryletternameforthemostbasicscaletostartseemstobe'A'.
so,myquestionis:itseemstomakemoresensethatthenotewecall'C'onthepiano,wouldinsteadbecalled'A'.whyisn'tit?whyisitactuallycalled'C',insteadofanythingelse?
hopefullymyquestionisclear,now..!
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pianoplayjlPSSilverMemberSr.Member
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#5on:October31,2011,09:54:03AM
OhnowIgetitbutIdon'tknow.Igiveup.whydon'tyouhaveagoatyourquestion?
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michael_langloisPSSilverMemberSr.Member
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#6on:October31,2011,10:40:02AM
Quotefrom:silphonOctober31,2011,08:15:30AM
idon'tknowifthisisa"stupid,unpractical'question,buti'vealwayswonderedaboutit.
whatarethereasons(whichi'mguessingareallonlyhistoricalreasons?)thatthemajorscalewithnosharpsandnoflatsbeginswith'C',insteadof'A'?
AreyouaskingwhyCDEFGABisconsideredmajor,whileABCDEFGisnot?Itmighthelptoclarifyyourquestion.
Mike
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silphPSSilverMemberJr.Member
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#7on:October31,2011,11:20:55AM
mygoodness,imustreallysuckataskingquestions,lol!
no,that'snotwhati'masking.iknowwhyCDEFGABCisamajorscaleandwhyABCDEFGAisaminorscale.
i'minsteadaskingwhythenotewecallCisinfactcalledC.itwouldmakemoresensetomethat,givenit'sthestartingnoteofthemostbasicscale(iethestartingnoteofthemostbasicscalebeingthestartingpointoflearninganymusictheory),thatitshouldbecalledthesameletterasthestartingnoteofthealphabet:A.itseemscompletelyarbitrarythattheletternamesofthepitchesarewhattheyare,andiwanttoknowwhyCwaschosentobethenameofthepitchthatwecallC.
ireallyhopemyquestionisclearnow!
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allthumbspianoPSSilverMemberJr.Member
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#8on:October31,2011,11:43:23AM
Ithinkheisaskingwhythenotesonthepianoweregiventherespecificnames,likewhyisCthenotebeforethe2blackkeysinsteadofA?WhyinhistorydidtheynottunethepianoinawaytomakeAthenotebeforethetwoblackkeysandgoupfromthere.IfyoudrawoutthepianoandlabelthekeysandtrytoformscalesbasedonAbeingbeforethe2blackkeysIthinkyoumightendupwithnaturalnotesontheblackkeyswhichwouldbestrange.Idon'tknowIdidn'ttryitbutIthinkFwouldenduponablackkey.Iguessitwasthemostorganizedwaytodoit.
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#9on:October31,2011,11:50:31AM
@allthumbspiano:
lolthanksforassuringmethatyouunderstandmyquestion!
well,ifweadopttherulethatEtoFisasemitone(ienonoteinbetween)andthatBtoCisasemitone,thenyes,Fwouldenduponablackkey.butofcourseifwe'renamingthenotebeforethetwoblackkeysasbeing'A',thenwewouldn'thavethatrule!instead,therulewouldbethatCandDwouldbeasemitoneapart,andGandAwouldbeasemitoneapart.thatis,thekeyboardwouldlooklikethis:
A[A#/Bb]B[B#/Cb]CD[D#/Eb]E[E#/Fb]F[F#/Gb]GA
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#10on:October31,2011,01:58:46PM
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HereisareasonIcanthinkofbutismostlikelywrong.TheCmajorscalehasnosharpsorflats,thisscalewascreatedbeforethepiano.Whentheycreatedthepiano(orwhateversimilarinstrumentbefore)theywantedallthesharpsandflatstobeontheblackkeys.SincetherearenosharpsorflatsinCMitbecametheonewithnoblackkeys.Thescalethatyoushowdoeshavesharpsandflatsontheblackkeysbutitlookslikethe3rdintheAmajorscalewhichshouldbeaC#isinsteadonawhitekeyofD.
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#11on:October31,2011,02:21:21PM
ohdear,maybeyou/don't/understandmyquestion,afterall,allthumbspiano!letmebringuptwothingsyoujustwrotetoshowwhy:
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TheCmajorscalehasnosharpsorflats,thisscalewascreatedbeforethepiano.
that'sfinebyme,thethoughtthatthescalewithnosharpsorflatstobecreatedbeforethepiano(orinmywords,i'mokaywiththethoughtthattherewasascaledeemedso"basic"thattheonlyideaofsharpsandflatscameaboutbyaskingwhatnoteswere/not/inthismost"basic"scale,andthatthis"basic"scalewascreatedbeforethepiano).butthewhole/point/ofmyquestionis:
supposei'mamusicianguyinventingcoolstuffliketheideaofascale,andi'msomeonewholivedwaybeforetheageofthepiano.nowsupposeicreatedamajorscalethatideemtobethemost"basic"and"simple"scale,andiwantedtousethelettersofthealphabettorefertothedifferentnotesofthescale.then,iwoulddefinitelynamethenoteslikethis:ABCDEFGA
thereisnoreasoniknowofwhyi'ddecidetobegintonameitstartingwithC!andsoidon'tunderstandWHYthemost"basic"scalewasevernamedstartingwiththeletterC!
Quote
The[keyboard]thatyoushowdoeshavesharpsandflatsontheblackkeysbutitlookslikethe3rdintheAmajorscalewhichshouldbeaC#isinsteadonawhitekeyofD.
but,again,thewhole/point/ofmyquestionisthatifyoutakethemost"basic"and"simple"majorscale,andwanttoassignnotestoit,thentheAmajor(yes,major!)scalewouldbe:ABCDEFGA,andthere*wouldnotbeanotethateverexistedcalledC#*.
you'resayingthatthe3rdintheAmajorscaleshouldbeaC#,butit'sonlyaC#in/our/namingsystem(ietheonethatstartsonC).inthenamingsystemusedbythekeyboardiposted:
A[A#/Bb]B[B#/Cb]CD[D#/Eb]E[E#/Fb]F[F#/Gb]GA
,thethirdoftheAmajorscaleindeedisC.(countitusingTTSTTTS!'A'isthefirstdegreeatoneupfromthatisB,whichisourseconddegreeandatoneupfromthatisC)
i'mfeelingalittleuneasy,becauseitseemsthatiamhavingalotoftroubleexplainingwhatmyquestionIS.you'rethethirdpersoninarowwhoi'veseemedtohavecausedtomisunderstandmyquestion,anditmakesmedoubtmycapabilitiesofcommunication...!
doyouseewhati'mtryingtoask,now,allthumbspiano?ordidinotquiteclarifyenough?
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allthumbspianoPSSilverMemberJr.Member
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#12on:October31,2011,03:24:41PM
Sorry,Ithoughtyouwereaskinginreferencetothepianoandnottothescalesthemselves.I'mnotsurehoworwhatlanguagetheyoriginallycreatedthescalesinthoughsoIcan'treallyanswerthat.ButIamcuriousaboutitthough.
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allthumbspianoPSSilverMemberJr.Member
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#13on:October31,2011,05:24:29PM
I'mthinkingitevolvedfromwhenscaleshadacompletelydifferentorganization.Iknowtheyusedtohavescaleswithlessnotesinthemandmaybeatthattime'A'wasthemostbasic.Asitevolvedandtheydividedthescalesfurtherthatiswhenthesharpsandflatsgotadded,'C'endingupwithnone.HereisaninterestingreadbutIdon'tthinktheexactanswerisinthere.
http://www.midicode.com/tunings/greek.shtml
LikeIsaid,Ithinktheyalreadyhadan'A'scaleofsomekind(notasweknowittoday)soitwasstuckbeingcalled'A'eventhoughwhentheydivideditupintomorenotesitendedupnotbeingthemost
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basiclikethe'C'.Notsureifthisisright,justatheory.
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#14on:October31,2011,06:36:36PM
FromwhatIwastold,musicalnotationoriginatedfromamonknamedGuidod'ArrizowhotaughthisstudentstosingsolemnizationsymbolsbasedonahymnaboutSaintJohnBaptistcalledUtqueantlaxis.
EachofthelinesbeganwithasymbolsuchasMi,So,Lawhichiswheresolfegeoriginatedfrom.Solfegeisbasicallysyllablesthatrepresentthemusicalmajorscale.
FromthataftertheymethodbecamemorepopularintheRenaissanceandbegantogrowmoreorganizedandsystemizedusinghexachords.Hedevelopedmuemonicdevicecalledthe"Guidonianhand"wherethesolfegesymbolswheregivingletternames.
Singersweretrainedforawhiletousethesebasicsixnotescales,avoidingthetritonebecauseitwasconsideredthedevil'schord.FromthereGuidodeveloped3typeofhexachordscales,onebeingcalledthenaturalstartingonCwiththehalfstepbetweenEandFetc.JeanPhilippeRameauwrotehisTreatiesonHarmonywhichwasusedbyFriedrichWilhelmMarpurgtodescribethemusicofBach.Fromtheredevelopedthesetwoindividualdescribedthisgrowingtrendoftonalization,dominants,resolutionsandessentiallyaremajor/minortonalsystemwhichwasbasedoncenteringofatonicnoteorkeynotewhichiswherewegetourkeysignaturesfrom.AftertheRenaissancetotheBaroqueperiodtheuseofstaffbegantobeusedtomakereadingeasierandclefswereintroducetogivelinesmeaningtodifferentpeople.Clefsbasedonthecommonregistersofsingersandinstrumentshence,Bass,tenor,sopranoclefsetc.TheclefsbegantobeusedtoindicatethekeyortonalitiesofpieceandbegantospreadasacommonwaytonotatemusicIamgivingthecliffnotesversion,itisreallyadeepcomplexmusicologyquestions.Butifyouwanttoknowthefullstorylookup:guidonianhand,musicaficta,Utqueantlaxis,.IguesstheevenshorteranswerisbecauseofGuido,solfege,andhissystemoftrainingsingers.
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#15on:October31,2011,07:50:06PM
Likemostthingsinmusic,thedevelopmentwasgradualandisstillongoing,andwentinlurchesasothereventshappenedinhistory.WesternmusicstartsoutfromtheearlyChristianchurchwhichborrowedbothfromtheGreeks,whohadfiguredoutsomeharmonythings,andtheJews,fromwhomtheygottheideaofchants.TheGreekintervals,speakinggenerally,ledtowardthese"modes".Thechantsweresacredandwerenotsupposedtobechanged,andwentalongthemodestoo.Itwasalloral,andittookforeverfortheboystomemorizeonechantaftertheotherbycopyingthemastersingers.Thosechantswerealongthose"modes".Thiswentonforhundredsofyears.AfterthecollapseoftheRomanEmpirethedifferenttownswerelikeislands.
ThencametheestablishmentoftheHolyRomanEmpire,whichtriedtounitallChristendom,andtodosotheritualsandsoforthhadtobeunified.Howdoyoucommunicatethingsifyouhavepoorroads,noradio,telephoneorInternet,andeverythingisoral?Writingistheanswer,sothewayofwritingwasimproved,andwaysofwrittenmusicwerealsobeingsoughtbytheexistingpowers.Charlemagnewasgivenamandatebythepope,ifIremembercorrectly.
Meanwhilemonksandscholarswerealreadytryingwaystomaketeachingstudents(tomemorize)thesechantseasier.Youcouldmakealittlesquigglearoundamainnotetoshowhowthenotesdancearounditoverheregoinghigherandlowersotheneumesdancingaroundasinglelinegotinvented.Itwaslikeaquickmemoforthingsthatwerememorized.
D'Arezzi'srevolutionwastolookatthestructure(thatwasalreadyinuse)underneaththatmusicandheisolatedthenoteswiththeirrelatedintervalsofa"scale".HegavethemthenamesDoReMietc.fromthatchantweallknowabout.TherewerespotsonhishandwhichrepresentedtheDoReMietc.sohecouldpointtothe"note"andthesingerscouldsingit.Thewritingsystemcamefromthistoo.Hedidnotinventthemodesortheintervalstheyalreadyexistedinthemusic.
Uptothenpeoplehadtomemorizeentireportionsofchants.Theideathatyoucouldsinganote,anothernote,andanothernote,andcreateachantoutofthissuccessionofnotes,wasmindbogglingthatyoudidn'thavetohearsomeonesingitfirst.Theideaoflookingatasheetofpaper,singnoteafternote,andendupsingingachantyouhadneverheardbeforetotallyblewtheirminds.Wetakeitforgranted.SincethepoliticalagendawastounifytheEuropeanChristianworld,partlyviathereligiousrituals,therewasalotofsupportforspreadingthissystem.Thereforeitcouldtakeoff.Thetimewasripeforit.
Oncetherewasawayofwritingmusic,ideascouldalsogetalotmorecomplexanditdevelopedfromthere.Andisstilldeveloping.
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#16on:October31,2011,07:55:56PM
Silph:WhatifitdidstartonAoriginally?HistoricallythetwomodesthatcontinuedweretheIonianwhichisourmodern"majorscale"andtheAeolian,whichisourmodern"naturalminor"scale.Somaybethenaturalminorwasthemorenormaloneonceuponatime.WecouldturnitonitsheadandconsiderthatasignatureofonesharpisthesignatureofEnaturalminor,andthatGmajoralsosharesitssignature. (Iwonderiftheminorwasinfactconsideredmorenaturalonceuponatime?)
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Actually,howdidthealphabetnamescomeabout?WealwaysonlyhearaboutthehistoryofDoReMi.
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#17on:November01,2011,04:05:13AM
.
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#18on:December10,2011,06:58:17AM
MywifeisKorean.ShespeaksDoReMinotABC.Wehavefuntryingtolearnnewsongstogether.
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#19on:December15,2011,10:53:35PM
thisisadifficultquestiontoanswerwithoutdelvingintohistorytoomuch..
IwouldsayaplausibleansweristhatwhoeverfirstdiscoveredoratleastworkedonintervalrelationshipsandusedletternamesasopposedtosolfeggionamedthefirstnoteA,andproceededtofindthenaturalminorscalebeforethemajorscale.
butthatstillseemsprettyunlikelytome..Iwouldassumeagreatnumberofpeopleworkedontheideaandthatitdevelopedovermanymanyyearsthiswouldhavetobethecasegiventhegreatnumberofhistoricaltuningmethods/temperments..butthenhey,itsnotasifthiswouldhavebeenworkedoutonapiano,morelikelythevoiceormaybeanearlyfretlessstringinstrumentofsomekind.Thekeypointaboutthatbeingthatthoseinstrumentscanaltertheirtuningassuchontheflywhiletheyareplaying...whichleadsmetobelievethatamoveabledosystemwouldhavecomelongbeforeABCdid.
Idon'tknowjackaboutthehistoryofthisthoughsojustignoremyramblings.
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#20on:February06,2012,07:39:02AM
Anotherimpossibleexplanation:
Perhapsthisisalljustcoincidence.Idon'tknowmuchaboutthehistoryofthekeyboardandhowtheletteringofthenotescametobesothisisjustpurefuriousspeculation.PerhapsinancienttimesthemostnaturalscaleisnotCbutanothernotee.g.b.Maybeinthosetimesthenote'c'isactuallycalledbbecausemaybetheydidn'tinventnamesfornotes.
Justmytheoryofcourse.Atheory.Andatheoryisalwaysspeculationthatisnotproventrue.
JL
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#21on:February06,2012,07:02:07PM
FromwhatIunderstand,theobjectofthequestionisthenomenclatureofthenotes.Accordingtopresentconvention,middleC(C4)isanynotewithafundamentaltoneoffrequency261.6HzandA4isthatwith440Hz.Thequestionasitappearstomemaymeanoneoftwothings:
a)Whydowecallanotewithafundamentaltoneoffrequency261.6HzMiddleCorC4andnotA4?
or,b)Whydowetunethemiddlewhitekeyofapianobeforethetwoblackstosounda261.6Hztoneandnot440Hz?
Tosummarize,whatisthecumulativehistoryofthetonalsystemusedtodayinmostmusicandit'snomenclature?
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#22on:February07,2012,03:28:25AM
Quotefrom:indespaironFebruary06,2012,07:02:07PM
FromwhatIunderstand,theobjectofthequestionisthenomenclatureofthenotes.Accordingtopresentconvention,middleC(C4)isanynotewithafundamentaltoneoffrequency261.6HzandA4isthatwith440Hz.Thequestionasitappearstomemaymeanoneoftwothings:
a)Whydowecallanotewithafundamentaltoneoffrequency261.6HzMiddleCorC4andnotA4?
or,b)Whydowetunethemiddlewhitekeyofapianobeforethetwoblackstosounda261.6Hztoneandnot440Hz?
Tosummarize,whatisthecumulativehistoryofthetonalsystemusedtodayinmostmusicandit'snomenclature?
Ithinkitjustcomefromtradition.Thenotenamesarenotdeterminedbyfrequencynorismerelyarbitrary.Ithinkthehistoryofthenotenamewasalreadydiscussedinthepreviouspost.WhatIhaveheardistheinEuropemusicianstunetoadifferentAfromthatinAmerica.SoIdonotthinkthefrequenciesareuniversallyusedeverywherebutcomesfromthegeneralareafrequencythathasbeenpassedon.
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#23on:February07,2012,06:57:13AM
Quotefrom:indespaironFebruary06,2012,07:02:07PM
FromwhatIunderstand,theobjectofthequestionisthenomenclatureofthenotes.Accordingtopresentconvention,middleC(C4)isanynotewithafundamentaltoneoffrequency261.6HzandA4isthatwith440Hz.Thequestionasitappearstomemaymeanoneoftwothings:
a)Whydowecallanotewithafundamentaltoneoffrequency261.6HzMiddleCorC4andnotA4?
or,b)Whydowetunethemiddlewhitekeyofapianobeforethetwoblackstosounda261.6Hztoneandnot440Hz?
Tosummarize,whatisthecumulativehistoryofthetonalsystemusedtodayinmostmusicandit'snomenclature?
I'dsaytheOPistalkingaboutA).AtlastIthinkIunderstandtheOP'squestion....
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#24on:February09,2012,02:53:52AM
ThefirstpersontocallnotesbyletternameswasamonkandmusictheoristcalledBoethius.HismusicaldiscourseDeInstitutioneMusicawaswritteninthe6thcentury.
Atthattime,"A"wasthelowestnoteusedinmusic,oratleastchurchmusic.Thewholeofmusicwasdividedintovarious"modes",inheritedfromtheGreeks,andtheideaofthemodern"scale"didnotreallyexist(althoughthe(present)Ionianmodecorrespondstothemajorscale,modaltheoryalsounderwentsomerevisoninthetimesinceBoethius,andthecorrespondencewiththemodesdescribedbyhimcouldbecontested).
Aparrallellineofdevelopment(asdescribedbykeypeginanearlierpost)gaveusthesolfa(doremifasollatido)system,whichcorrespondstothemodernscale.Theputtingofthesetwolinesoftheoreticaldevelopmenttogetherresultedin"C"beingthebottomnoteoftheallnaturalsmajorscale.
Interestingly,themodernstandardpianostillhas"A"asit'slowestnote.
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#25on:February09,2012,05:54:01AM
Quotefrom:j_menzonFebruary09,2012,02:53:52AM
Interestingly,themodernstandardpianostillhas"A"asit'slowestnote.
MaybethatisbecausetheletterAisthefirstletterofthemusicalphabet.
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#26on:May31,2012,08:49:21AM
Idon'tunderstandwhyyourquestionisgettinganswersbasedonmusicaltheoryorhistorywhenitisbasedinetymology.Whatthequestionbeingaskedpeople,iswhy"c"asopposedtoanythingelse?Takentoridiculouslengths(toproveapoint),whynotdogorcat?
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#27on:May31,2012,09:07:11AM
Quotefrom:boop4onMay31,2012,08:49:21AM
Idon'tunderstandwhyyourquestionisgettinganswersbasedonmusicaltheoryorhistorywhenitisbasedinetymology.Whatthequestionbeingaskedpeople,iswhy"c"asopposedtoanythingelse?Takentoridiculouslengths(toproveapoint),whynotdogorcat?
I'vemadethatuprightnow,butmaybeithastodowiththefactthatthenote"C"isclosesttothe"Center"ofthekeyboard?It'salsothe"Center"ofourtonesystembecausetherearenoaccidentalsinthescale,soit'stheeasiesttolearntheorywise.P.S.:Manycountriesdonotuse"CDE",butsay"DoReMi"instead.Thismaybepartoftheconfusionthatarosewhilesomepeopletriedtoreply.AlsokeepinmindthatmanyboardusersarenotnativespeakersofEnglish.
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#28on:June01,2012,10:50:46PM
Quotefrom:boop4onMay31,2012,08:49:21AM
Idon'tunderstandwhyyourquestionisgettinganswersbasedonmusicaltheoryorhistorywhenitisbasedinetymology.Whatthequestionbeingaskedpeople,iswhy"c"asopposedtoanythingelse?Takentoridiculouslengths(toproveapoint),whynotdogorcat?
Didyoueverlearnthealphabet?Thelettersformanorderedlistthatpeopleinmanycountriesrecognize.Ifyouhavea6yearoldwhoistakingtheirfirstevermusiclessonyoudon'tneedtotellthemthatBcomesafterAbecausetheyalreadyknow*cough*unlesssomeyahoodecidesHshouldcomeafterAdestroyingthewholepointofthelabels*cough*.Itisjustthesameasifnumberswereusedaslabels.LogicallythereforAmustbethestartingpointofthesequence.Thatwasalreadydefinedbeforeitwasappliedtomusic.Sotheanswertothequestioncanonlybehistorical,insofarasthereisananswer.
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#29on:June01,2012,11:06:03PM
Interestingquestion.ActuallytwoinawayHowdidthelinesandspacesonthestaffgettheirlettername?Andwhynotmakethemostplainnotation,nosharpsorflats,A.And...howdidthenotesonakeyboardgettheirlettername?
Iwouldguessitevolved,justchance.I'llseeifIcanfindanything.NotationcameaboutfromtheCatholicchurchright?Toomanyhymnstokeeptrackofsotheystartedwritinginlittlemarks.Thenalinetodifferentiatethoselittlemarks.Thenanotherline.Neumes.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neume
AndIwonderifithassomethingtodowithclefs.
TheactualpitchestoA440waslowerinthepast.I'mnotsurewhatthenumbersare,butI'vehearditwassomethinglikeaminorthirdlowerthanwhatwehavetoday.Pitchkeepsrising.Iheardwe'reheadingtowardA442.
IalsoremembersomethingaboutourmoderngrandstaffcomingfromFrance....Darnit...Lostmypost.
Guidoputneumesonastaff.Howdidthatgettothemoderngrandstaff?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staff_(music)"Francesoonbegantoincorporatefivelinesintoitsmusic,whichbecamewidespreadbythe16thcentury,andwasthenormthroughoutEuropebythe17thcentury.Thenamesofthestaffinsomelanguages,suchastheItalianpentagramma,reflectstheimportanceoffivelines.In1342,thefirstmusicstaffwasmade.Itconsistedoffourlinesandthreespacesinsteadofthemodernfiveandfour.FivelinesstaffwasmadeinItalybyUgolinoofForl."
Lookslikehedidit.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugolino_of_Forl%C3%ACButweneedmoreinfo....
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#30on:June01,2012,11:31:59PM
It'sbeingapaintomodifypostsnow....
OxfordMusicOnline(NewGroves)Underthisentry....UgolinoofOrvieto[UgolinodiFrancescoUrbevetanoUgolinusdeUrbeveteri](b?Orvieto,c1380dFerrara,2331Jan1452).Italiantheoristandcomposer.2.Theory."ItisclearthatUgolino,whilenotmentioningauthorsmorerecentthanJohannesdeMuris,hadstudiedtheworksofProsdocimusdeBeldemandis...""TheonlydifferenceisthatUgolinobeganoncratherthanGandsplitthesemitonesBCandEFintoequalhalves.Prosdocimus'sandUgolino'sdivisions,resultinginfiveflatsandfivesharps,weretohaveconsiderableinfluenceonlate15thcenturytheoristsinItaly.AsignificantsourceforthespeculativeportionsoftheDeclaratio,likewiseunnamedbyUgolino,hasbeenidentifiedastheanonymousQuestionesonmusic(FPnlat.7372),perhapswrittenbyapupilofBiagioPelacaniorsomeoneinhiscircle.Ugolino'streatise,thoughlessoriginalthanwasoncethought,wasneverthelessinfluential,especiallythefirsttwobooks."BonnieJ.Blackburn,author
Sohedidit,popularizedit.Whoknowswhyhepickeditthewayhedid.Iwouldguesshewasbuildingonotherideas,butwhyhedecidedtoswitchpitcheslikethat...Whoknows?
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#31on:June01,2012,11:58:00PM
Here'sabitaboutwhyit'saGandFclef..."(v)Clefs,staves,legerlines.TheFandCclefs,positionedsoastoavoidlegerlines,weresupplementedfromthe14thcenturywiththeGclefandabassGorgammaclef(fixingbassG),inordertoallowfurtherexplorationofthetrebleandbassregisterswithoutthenecessityforlegerlines."fromarticle,Notation,III,4:Mensuralnotationfrom1500authors,GeoffreyChew/RichardRastallOxfordMusicOnlineThatdoesn'tanswerwhyit'sCandnotAthough.Lookslikethat'sstillUgolino'sinfluence.
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#32on:June02,2012,01:11:49AM
Becausecisthespeedoflight.
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#33on:June02,2012,04:21:39AM
Iattendedachildren'smusicclasstheotherday,andtheteachersaidthatthemostnaturalintervalforchildrentosingisaminorthird.Thatsurprisedme...Ithinkofmajorkeysandintervalsasbeingmorenatural,intermsofhowtheysoundandtheirpredictability.MostteachersIknowteachthemajorscalesfirst.Maybethatisnothowitalwayswas.Maybeminorscalesusedtobemorecommonandnatural.Thatwouldmakethemostsensetome,anditwouldanswerthequestionbeingaskedbecauseinthatcase,the"mostnatural"scalewouldbeAminor,notCMajor.
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#34on:June02,2012,04:32:34AM
Alsointeresting.
Theymightbetalkingthe"Ursong."Solsolmilasoooolmi.
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#35on:June03,2012,05:02:48PM
whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?
Later,inthemiddleages,Dorianmodewasdesignated"modeno.1",notforitsauralqualities,butforitsmathematicalsymmetry.Takeanynote,andcalculateperfect5thsaboveandbelowit,untilyouhavea7notescale.ThisgivesyouDorianmode:
Goingupwardinfifth:Dx3/2=AAx3/2=EEx3/2=GGoingdownwardinfifth:Dx2/3=GGx2/3=CCx2/3=F.
Puttingthemallinthesameoctave,keepingthestartingnoteatthecentre,sothatnonoteismorethana4thaway,youhave(bottomtotop)ABCDEFG:
(Yousometimesneedtoinverta5thtoa4thintheotherdirectiontoremaininthesameoctave.)
Nowimagineyouhavenonoteletterstostartwiththeyhaven'tbeeninventedyetsoyougiveletternamestoyour"perfect"scalestartingonthebottomnote:
ABCDEFG.212212
Bingothat'swherewegetournotenamesfrom.Theyweren'tgiventoAeolianmode,butto"hypodorian",whichisdorianstartinga4thbelowitstonalcentre.Andthereasonitstartsa4thbelowisthe"holy"symmetryofthediagram,theelegantsimplicityofthederivation.
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#36on:October20,2012,01:36:14PM
Quotefrom:nystulonJune01,2012,10:50:46PM
Didyoueverlearnthealphabet?Thelettersformanorderedlistthatpeopleinmanycountriesrecognize.Ifyouhavea6yearoldwhoistakingtheirfirstevermusiclessonyoudon'tneedtotellthemthatBcomesafterAbecausetheyalreadyknow*cough*unlesssomeyahoodecidesHshouldcomeafterAdestroyingthewholepointofthelabels*cough*.Itisjustthesameasifnumberswereusedaslabels.LogicallythereforAmustbethestartingpointofthesequence.Thatwasalreadydefinedbeforeitwasappliedtomusic.Sotheanswertothequestioncanonlybehistorical,insofarasthereisananswer.
Sothatiswhy"Themostbasicscale"startsonCandnotA...Explainthattoasixyearold.Orme.TheonlyintelligentanswertothequestionmustbethatAminororAaeolian,isthe"mostbasicscale".
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#37on:October20,2012,01:43:47PM
ITHINKtheynamedthekeyslikethatsincetheveryfirstkeyinthepianoisA,sotheotherkeyswerenamedaccordingly .
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#38on:October23,2012,09:02:44PM
Quotefrom:bojo1onOctober20,2012,01:36:14PM
TheonlyintelligentanswertothequestionmustbethatAminororAaeolian,isthe"mostbasicscale".
Theyweren'tgiventoAeolianmode,buttohypodorian.
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#39on:November05,2012,08:35:21PM
IthinkyourmakinganinvalidassumptionbystatingthatCMajoristheonlynaturalscale.Itmostcertainlyisnot.WesternmusicwasnotoriginallyderivedonMajor/Minorconfigurations,ratheronmodes.Gregorianchantusedmodes,notMajor,Minorscales.
Theconceptoftempermentdidnotmakeitswayintowesternmusicuntilthelate1600'sandwasn'tfullyrealizeduntilthemid1700's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well_temperament
Idon'tthinkthattheoriginalkeyboardsweretunedthewaytheyaretoday.So,Ihatetosayitbut,Cmajoriswhatitis.It'saproductoftheevolutionoftheinstrument.Ibelievethattheyweresimplynotthinkinginthosetermsbackaroundthetimethattheoriginalkeyboardswereinvented.ANDTHEYAIN'TCHANGIN'ITNOW!haha!
Ihopethismakessense.
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#40on:November07,2012,12:20:41AM
Idon'tthinkthepitchmattersforwhathe'sasking.
Naturalbeingnosharpsorflats.
WhyuseamajorscalestartingonCforascalewithnosharpsorflats?WhynotAinstead?
Orbasicallywhyaretheletternamesassignedtothestaffandkeyboardthewaytheyare?
I'dgowiththeevolutionideatoothough.Tradition.Thereareotherthingsthatdon'tmakesensebutthey'restilldonebecausethat'showit'salwaysbeen.
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#41on:November15,2012,07:43:39PM
Thetone"la"isnamedA,becauseA4(Aonfirstoctave)=440Hzexactly.
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#42on:January24,2014,01:03:02PM
http://www.theoreticallycorrect.com/MusicFiction/
JustthoughtI'dthrowthisintothemix!
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#43on:January24,2014,02:04:51PM
Thankyouforpostingthatlink,itwasveryinteresting,andapplieddirectlytotheOPsquestion.
Atleasttwoofusunderstandhisquestion!
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#44on:January25,2014,01:07:26AM
Didanyonewadethroughthatlink?Iglancedthroughitbutdidn'tseetheanswer.
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#45on:January25,2014,01:59:18PM
Hereistheansweryouhavebeenlookingfor:Informertimeswhenchurchmusicwasveryimportant,themostbasicscalewhichservedasthebasisfornamingthekeyswasn'ttheCmajorscale.ItwastheeolianscalewhichisidenticaltoourAminorscaleandthereyouhavethekeysABCDEFGintheorderofthealphabetstartingwithA.GreetingsfromGermany.
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#46on:January25,2014,04:13:47PM
Relatedquestion:WhydoGermanscall"H"whatEnglishspeakerscall"B"?
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#47on:January27,2014,08:52:52AM
TheGermanscallflats"Bs"andsharps"crosses".Asaconsequence,"B"inGermanalwaysmeansBflat.Sowejusttookthenextletterofthealphabetthatwasn'tyetinuseandthatwas"H".
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#48on:February10,2014,07:18:28AM
Quotefrom:cn75onJanuary25,2014,01:59:18PM
Hereistheansweryouhavebeenlookingfor:Informertimeswhenchurchmusicwasveryimportant,themostbasicscalewhichservedasthebasisfornamingthekeyswasn'ttheCmajorscale.ItwastheeolianscalewhichisidenticaltoourAminorscaleandthereyouhavethekeysABCDEFGintheorderofthealphabetstartingwithA.
Imustdissapointyou.Itcan'tberightwhatyouraretellingus.WhenthenamesABCDEFGwhereintroducedbyGuidoofArezzoin1025therewerenoIonianandnoAeolianscaleatall!AeolianandIonianwasintroducedbyGlareanin1547.BeforethatdatetherewereonlyDorian,Phrygian,LydianandMixolydianwithitsrespectivHYPOscales.
AgainthestoryIbelieveit'sthetrueone:
Inthemiddleages,Dorianmodewasdesignated"modeno.1",notforitsauralqualities,butforitsmathematicalsymmetry.Takeanynote,andcalculateperfect5thsaboveandbelowit,untilyouhavea7notescale.ThisgivesyouDorianmode:
Goingupwardinfifth:Dx3/2=AAx3/2=EEx3/2=GGoingdownwardinfifth:Dx2/3=GGx2/3=CCx2/3=F.
Puttingthemallinthesameoctave,keepingthestartingnoteatthecentre,sothatnonoteismorethana4thaway,youhave(bottomtotop)ABCDEFG:
(Yousometimesneedtoinverta5thtoa4thintheotherdirectiontoremaininthesameoctave.)
Nowimagineyouhavenonoteletterstostartwiththeyhaven'tbeeninventedyetsoyougiveletternamestoyour"perfect"scalestartingonthebottomnote:
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ABCDEFG.212212
Bingothat'swherewegetournotenamesfrom.Theyweren'tgiventoAeolianmode,butto"hypodorian",whichisdorianstartinga4thbelowitstonalcentre.Andthereasonitstartsa4thbelowisthe"holy"symmetryofthediagram,theelegantsimplicityofthederivation.
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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#49on:February13,2014,01:38:09AM
^Interesting.Thatsupportsmyoriginalguess,whichwasthatthepianotooktheshapeitdidorganically,havingtoconformtotheorythatwasalreadyestablishedandsophisticated.WhileitwouldhavemadesensetocallCmajor"A,"itonlywouldmakesenseinthecontextofpiano,nottheoryasawhole.
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