Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

WEDNESDAY, 1 OCTOBER 1930

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

[ASSE.MBLY.] Questions.

WEDNESDAY, l OCTOBER, 1930.

The Sr>J:U>ER (Hon. (_. Ta~ior, 1riwlso1') tc.ok tlH· chair at 2.30 p.m.

QL:ESTIU:\'8.

(r_ tJX"\10:\V•:L:\LTH GlU"~T FOR L.:\E:HPLOY~\IE:\T HELl E> c:;;nE!l FEDElHL Am H.o ms ~·<eT.

:\!;·. PEASE (Ht rb1 1'1) asked the Premier-

.. In vie'' of th,, tatemcnt m.·dr bv rh,• Federal ~\,cio.tant :\linistc1· for \York·, dn 25th Septctnber. i11 connection vvit~t t hl' ComJnon,~·pa}t-h GoYt'i'1lD1Pnt r.rrant to !h0 Statrs for U!J('ll1plo:;·nlt'nt rcll~f ·work unde,· the Fe ·1Pral Aid l::hads Ad, that t be unclanncd balances '" 24th Scptcm­JCr, \vcre as follo1Y :-?\c\v South \Vales.

£30,COO; Victoria, £23.162; Sonth Aus­tl~alia, £6.567; TasmanifL. £3,566; \'Vestcm Australia. nil; Quecmland. £141,818-,,ill lw explain the position n;g.•rdrng: Que~·rHlaiHl\; lnrgi' unclaimed l1a lanep In compa !'i ~on \Yjth the other State~?"

Thr· PRE:\IIER (Hon. A. E. :\Ioore, '''irmy) replied-

.. 'I'ho progn ,~ of \York-. in thi~ State has.bcnn. ar:ec1Prated as rnnch as ll0'"-'3i}Jlc t~tking Into <'on~idt1 ratic:n the -distribu'­nou. of ~uncls OYer a~ \vide, an area a~ po~~1ble m orclet· to afford g-Pneral relief and al~o takiiJg in1·o con~ideration the-' r>conomic spending of the arnount av-ail­able. The total value of work rommittecl under the s"hcmc at the pres0nt. time is £248.200. 'Thc amonnt required in Pxcos~ ~f the grant of £188.000 is being· pro­'Idecl. from State funds. In order to ~·x:pochte the rom~~JlCC'lllPJJt of operations fhc. local authonbes were requested to ~r;vite tenders, retnrna blc in ty.~o weeks <>om the date of aclvm-tisemc•nt instead of the ruston;ar:v month. and the speciri­c.ttious rontanv cl a clause whidl required t~o .contractor to cmnrnence orJerahons \nt~hm fourteen clays of the uotification of acceptance of hi" tender (\Ycather rernuthng). The ~chPnlc wa;;:; considcr­~bl:v rcta;·decl during the ~econd half of last financial Yf'~Ll' on dcr·ount of th(' prolonf?ed \vet sca:;;on. Tho positiou rc•,r.;al·rhng fun cl:" is f('t ont hc•I·eundcr :-

\.rnouut. rPi1ulmr--ed 1Jv Com-monwutlth ·~~ ..

Claim 8Ubmittl•d to c.i~~llllll;l~l·­\\~calth f?e n•irnbur.senlcnt (m transtr)

J~xrwnditurc for September (elaitns ori tlw Comn1on­

_ ~ w:alth lwiug preparrd) ... ij..~,~+,Jnlatr'cl va lu0 nf worr;: per­

fanned ln1t rein1bur:-" rncnt 110t ('..~, c·laimed bv loc 'I authorities (indndii1g 15 P<'l' cent. retcnbon 1U011L'.Y

un contracts)

£

4fi.182

23.25,)

23.72-l

30,000

£123,161 Work of a to(a] Yalue of £230,000 has been fJni~hcd nr is in progre;:s under this scherne.''

l'APEHti rx m; APPOI;o;HlEN'r OF MEMBERS oF UocKHAMPTO>< HosPITAL BoARD.

:\lr. DU'<LOP (Rockham.pton) askecl the HornP Secretary-·

"Will he lav on the bble of the Hou>'c all paper>' in c'onnection with tho appoint­nwnt of m cm bers to th" Hockhrrmpton 1--io~pital Board?"

'l'lw HOME SECRETAHY (Hon. ,J. C. Pl: Prson) ~r onnanby) replied-

.• ~0 rrlw hon. lnenlber lllay Pl'J'USC

1he p~per at the Homo Seeret<.n·.\"''s Dcp:::trtlneut. ~'

~EGlSL,\TIOCJ TO FJX :\LIXLHnr J;o;TEREST RuE. ::,tr. BEDEOllD ( 1Ftu"f'Dyo) asked the

]J;·eln1cr-·' 1. ..L\S the prCSCllt ([nancial stre~s ha:";

1no.dc, even u_;_oro than formerl.\, lJorrower·, to be careless of the .jutorest ratc-3 ch1!Uanded by private lenders, V\·ith minimum rates of 30 per cent . .and 25 per cent. per annum, will he take notice of <l clvcrtiscment:. appearing in the daily papers, \vith a view to r.h0 intl'oduction of legislation to iix a maxin1un1 interest 1ate?

.. 2. \Vill he regard as (_ur urgent Inea­:<.nro the proposed reli0f fron1 usunou~ rates of interest?"

'l'lw PRE:YHER (Hon. A. E. Moor~. .! uhiun:-') replied-

" 1 and 2. I refer the hmJ. member to the provisions of ''The :Vlone:v Lcnrl<'r'' Act of 1916.''

RECEIPTS IX Al:G[J;cT FROM U:.rE~!PLODlEKT RELIEF TAX.

:Vlr. BL:LCOCK (Harcoo) asked the Sccre· t:< r,· for Labour and Industry-

. "Vv'hat was the total amount received during August under the unemployment relief tax from (a) wages; (b) all other ~ourc0s ?n

The SECRE'l'ii.RY FOR LABOUR A~D 1:\'DUSTRY (Hon. H. K Siwr, Srtndgate) >epliecl-

" R0Ycnuc a~ follow·s :~ £ .'i. "~ (o) Wages-Stamps 24.857 4 c

(b) All other "ourccs-Taxation 84 7 1

£24.941 11

For iL 11nmber of reason:-; the inconH' fnJ' thi~ initial month of Aug-ust canuot br rt•gardcd as a true criterion of t!H~ prob­abJo annual inco1no frorn the tax."

LO><G SER\'ICE P.\Y AKD LK\YE Dt'E TO R,r:TIRTXG R.\1LWAY El\IPLOYEES.

:VIr. BULCOCK (llw·coo) asked the Secrc· U>l'\' for Railwavs-

.. " 1. In view of tho fact that certain raih\ o ,v c1nployecs arc to be retired inlnlc:dlrttcly, lllld long service pay and lc;r,>c i~ JuP, hovi vrill tho nn1onnts so duP be computed, bearing in mind that the ~()l"_"icc rend•_-rcd to tmrn long servict 1c'a"',-c "'.\-T:~ given over a long period of year" with Yarying rate~ of rmnnnera-t,J()ll.

" 2. Will such paymcnte be bused on the pcrninf[.> of the C'Illployec at the time of retirement?

Questions. [l Oc•roBBH.] TVorkers· Homes, Etc., Bill. !303'

" 2. \Vill th< higher rates previously prr-\ ,nhng han: any influence on the tl n10n11t 1J<J vab1f• on retire1nent?

' 4. 1-; it intPlHJcrl to r J!oy· the retired ('L ploy(~'-; to corrlP unde1· the superannLut~

· "'l'ilC'nl(' or vd1l payrncnt bo deferred until all

have b~cn exhausted?"

Tlw SECRSTAHY FOR HAIL\'\AYi3 :IIou. {;odfrf':· J\Iorgan. Jiun 7 la) replied-

.. 1 pavnwnL for extended lC' tYe >J a1low...tncos '\Yill lK' ba.;:;c,J of P1nploy0cs at 1 he ti jlt accord-

Petirinn· con1e untlcr, th~

~u] will c1o so forth-1 ith Oil !JtL='llH'll"i c: the <-1lDOUl1t }JfO­

\TidccJ. iryc-:p0ctiYc of an~T other pa.y­IlH'nt-. thr·y Hlfl~ 1·cceiYe.·'

HAI:L\\',\Y }\_\TEC:, ux BL.\IH ~\.TitOL CO,\L TO :\l 'Cl\.\1 t)[G.\H-:.\TlLLS.

:\Jr. 1Jl":'\LC>P (l!od/!(1111pfon) aslced the ~i <Tr'tn.r: fn1· 1\ail·ha~ ~-,

·· 1. \Yho1t 1~ lho (o) rate per ton per ntilc. <UHl to1·ul an1ourn per ton, includiuo; nnd shunting- charge~, Lein <'h<ir~ __ r·d on coaJ fl'orn Blajr _-\tho!

fc;1]0\Yi llg" 3Ug'<H'-f 1ills. YIZ. :-Fa rle;gh, H.acccour ·<', and

Plc-..·::::rowc-:

" 2. I' r his r:ttc sufficient to pay work­illg c•"t,' on the' railway;, together with rna.intpna net> of rolling-stock and per­rnanc:nr \\'a~-. and interest on c.tpital?

"3. As the haul from the State coal mine~ at St•-x to these miils is 325 mik,; 1<·-s th:tn 'from Dhir .\thoL i.c this . ~cr~raphical ;Hh:ant.age LC'ing- nYailcd of tn an {'ndf'a ':our to secure this business for the State• 1nine« at Styx?

'' 4. Is Dlair Athol coal supplanting that from the Styx n11nc~, and, if so. is thi:; dur• to (a) the quality .andlor cost of the coal: 01· (b) n1ilage cone,_ "sions allowed o,~, cocl from Blcit· Athol."

Tlw {If on.

To ]farh\·1 . ~o F·rlf'{Qh ..._o RaeC' Tn Pley

FOR RAIL\YAYS _1furi/la) replied-

RATES CHARGED.

Per Ton per :\me.

d. l·Ofifi 1 ·050 1·0()2 1·059

Per Ton.

.<;. rl. B!l 10 39 £i·2 29 0·4 :~g 5·2

· 2. Th(·~' an: the ordinarv srhPdnk rates. rn Cf,'dn10D YVith Oth~r raihvov ~vstctT: r ihv:• . .- r:-dr._ .t rp dcf'igned .s.~ th.1t tln 'o-..; in h . .,ndling- lo\v-"';rado C011l­

nJoditic!" \Yill }v- conv•cn- ntPd -fat· b~.· th hicdwr nil' oct le s bulk,; awl h lgher I nod '

•· 7- and 4. l'\o c.::: istance is giYcn the Blair Athol mines by tho Rail' av Deparbnent to cotnpetf~ \vjth th<~ St:y·x rnine- for this business."

PAPER. The following paper was laid on the table.

and ordered to be Jtrintcd c-Twcntv-fil·,t annual report: of the numa·

g0i·. State Advances Corporation.

rJlBlRD HE_'lDl~:G.

The PHE~IJER (Hon. A. E. }Ioon' . . i uhir;ny)' l beg to move-

'" That the Hill he now read a third time."

Qu0"tion put aud pat>sed.

BUREAU OF ECO:'\O~IICS A:\D STATISTICS BILL.

THIRD READIXG.

The SECllETARY FO[t T.'\JJCSTRY (IIon. H. E. Sizcr, I b0g to tnoYC'-

,, That tllP Bill bu now read a thirc: tinH~.:'

Que1--tin:1 pur aucl pn~:-:ed.

H,\ BI:'\TJA TCJ\VKSHll' BILL.

INITIATION.

The TIU<:ASU!~EH. (Hon. \Y. H. Barnc . rrJ:/11 u Ill) : I beg to ll10VC-

.. That the Hou'e will, at its next 'ittiag, rc<olvc itself into' a Committee of tlH• \Yholo to consid~r of the dcsir:Jcb!e­nes, of introducing :1 Bill to amend the law in relation to tho tenure of the land., comprised in the !3abinda towmhip, to amend 'The Sugar \Vorks Act of 1911 . and for other purposes."

Qnestion put and passed.

HAf'T:'\G REGL.:LATION BILL.

J NITIA TIO ::-1.

The 'IREASUR!~R (Hon. \1". H. Barw,s, TVymwm): I beg io move:-

"That thf' House will. at its nex1 ,itling. resohe itself into a Committee of the \\'hole to considPr of the desir­a blcncs~ of introducing a 13ill to a1nend tlw law rclatl11g to racecourses and racl' trH'C'tiugs. and for othm· purposes .. ,

QuP:·d ion pnt and pa ""f cL

WURKEHS' IIOXES ACTS AME:'\D­\lE:0:T BILL.

SFcoxn READING.

Tho SECRE'L-\RY FOR PuBLIC WORKS (B.on R. 3.-1. ICing, Logwn): In n1oving thP ~ccond reading of this Rill I desire to sa.Y that it propos0s to cunciHl ono of the Acts de(] liDg- v~.·-ith the existing housing· ]cgislatiou of the State, \Yhicb is co1npri'.ed in t.wo Acts-the \\' orkrrs' Dwc,llings Act and the \Vorkors) IIon1es \r+. It i~ ncnv proposed to 1nake an arn0nrlr:ncnt in a. ver,· material parbrular in th(' Act. tlPali:ng with workf-:!rs' hon1es. In passing. it rnight ,be son1cvvhat interesting to give sorne particnlars regard­ing the activities that have been carried out under these tv;o Acts.

Hon. R. Jl.l. King.]

1304 Workers' Homes Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Biil.

The \Yorkcrs' Dwellings Act applies to purchasers of homes who desire to ha.ve their homes erected on freehold property.

The \Yorkcr·s' Homes Act was introduced b:. the previou; Administ1.1tion to enable a certain sLctiou of tl!o public \Yho were not tinancially ;:,trong euough to a -quil·e frLe­hold land, but who '''ere prepared to take a ho.11e on a porpctual lea~chold tenure, ulso to joiu the ranks of those who might acqui1·e their c.\.11 hon1e,. C udC'r the iirst rncntioned Act. applicant·. rnust not b, in c ·ccipt of a g'n:' LtCl' bl'O::iS i .ACO.LllL thail £~16 lJCl' UllllUill.

The 1naxin1Ulll an.:.ouL~. 1.vhich n1uy be uch· ~ 1Wed uudcr that Act is £8(10, the rrrte of i!lt.cr< .it 5 ]Wr ccHt., anJ the h>rm of the 1dVHllCC bn~nty year·. lt has proved to be

,-l·r: useful piece of lcgislatio~, and has iiCl'n [ ih ptH!JO,~e Yey ·well indc~·cl.

~\1r. \Y. FoHG.\X S~ETH: Can ~ ou give us any idea as io the aYcragc periods of repay­ments at the pt·,,, out time! It use-d to be t.1.i'V·e]v(! ~vcars.

The SECREL\RY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: I cannot gi, o the bon. nlmnbor the informa­tion at the nwrnent. Under tho \Yor~·-er.-.' Homes Act, \Yith ,,-hieh we are rnostlv con­cerned a,t the rnon1ent, the applicant~ n1u~t han• an income of not greater than £260 per annum. the maximum amount of the advance is not rtated. bnt is must not <'XCPccl 19/20th of the Yalue of the h01r·c and landJ thP rF~to of intc~rost again is 5 per ccnL. and the term of repayment of tl-n"" loan not rnore than twPnty-fivc venrH. In respect o£ houses built under this 'pi cc<' of Icg-i~l ttion the appliC'ant pa:vs .t nomina] rental of 3 per cent. of the ea pita.l value of the land. I admit that this also was a VC'r~- ·\Yis(• pierP of legi;;;lation. beeause it has certainly en a bled persons who did not have tlw nccc"arv val!lc in land or monpy to build workers' r]>~~c!lings to get homes· for th0n1;;:.elvr<;j under the nan10 of workers' homes. The purchrrsr'r of a '"orker's home htd to in-ure his life for the full amount of the unpaid purchase monev and other monoYo secured bv the contract of sale and the Act. That \Ya~· ;;:.o in moF:t rasrs; but. if it "\';ere found that an applicant was rf'al!v not an insurable Jif1'. or was of suf'h an· ago that thf' rntc of pr0n1iu1n won1d be proh!biti,·ol~v high, thf'n th.._ life n~snrancc ~as not insisted upon.

Mr. \Y. FcRC.AX E'·:·<fiTJf: You had power to exempt.

The SECRETARY FOR Pl!BLIC WORKS: 1~r-~; ir \Va.;; not insi,ted upon.

l\1r. \\'. FmlG.\" s~.-ITH: Thcre is a dif­fer~l~<;t) bPi WC't!Il a ])0\V('l' to CXCinpt and 110t lllSl,'idng.

'rho SEI'RETARY FOTt PUBLIC WORKS: "\V ell. v;l' c'l1a ~1 speak of it as power to '"'cmpt.

It ,rnight h0 as \YPll to gi,-e the J--Iou..;;e at this singe (·crtain inforwation a·. to th<' total operation of thC''·C bYo schonH~s. bccausP both of them ban been of inestimable benefit in helping people to acquire thc·ir O\Vll

hmn~s. On the one hand \YO baYf' the class of person who has fn·c-hold knd and ,c-,:ets a \-YOrkor'::; dwelling; OH the other hand, a man who is not ~o strong financiaJly and gets n bou10 nncler a }JC'rpetual ]c._tseholcl tenure; but I say unhesitatingly that at the back of t.hc mind of every person who desires to havu hi~ own homn is th~~ dP.:;irc to po• .,c ·, thai honw frco of any liability

[Hon. R. Yl. King.

to }Jav rPnt io any otltcr person. I--Ie want~ t0 be' able to say, . ·''This, bit ;>,f the earth belong~ to m~:; 1t 1s 1.ny nmnG.

:Hr. IV. FoR:Ax SIII'IH: Socuri~y of tenure 13 the thin,: th..tt tnatters.

SECRETAEY FOR PUBLIC WORKS.: n.~ 1:3 sunwthing beyond that-th?re 1s

in~ in Lhc lnuuan hC111.;; to \Yl1ich he kno\,V,-j cannot bo

SollTH: That i., impossible.

Th,• SECHET~~RY FOR PUBLIC \VORKS: ] l~e fl·c' ""hold tt Ul'O iB the best tLnurc obtain-able i11 ; the onl~~ way iu which j ~ ea n f rmn a pcrilon is under the

Publi \Yorks L>lnd Hcsmnp­l)rovidc, that. la1u1 requir ~d

for pnbFc pnrrio s-all(: public pm·posos alunc·--c.tn bl~ re·~;Jnlcd upon p.aJHlent of cOrn· JK ~12ation to tbo O\VHCr.

~vh. ''. }'mw \N S:.,rTH: The local authori­ti'·· haYc tlH• power to take posses,;ion of land iu pay1ncnt of rates.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: All land i' liable to be sold to meet a judgru~._nt of the court.

?.1r. \V. FoRGAK SMITH: Then there is no cmnpJct<' fixity of ownership.

TlH' SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: ] [l!ll :;:.p0aking in a compa.rative s~n~('. _J :--ub1nit tlH"-~P \·t~rv intC'rc "::;1.;1~~· 8tatu•tiCS Ill l't:lation i.o '-York0rs' dwP)lings up to 30th ,J U.llt"". 1930-

£ Toial loan indchtedne" 2,892,973 ~ \.lTPars of int:Jrest onlv . . . 510 (Reduced on 31st Augll8t. 1930. to £369) Total ~·rrears of intcre;t' and

re1.1en1p"!:ion

Pcrc·cntagt"" of arrears of iut.erP~t

13.977 Per cent.

to total indebtt'dne,s ... .018 Pt..'rv.::ntag:o of aJTPn.rs of int.erC',;.t

a11d rcden111tion to total iw!d:Jtcduc "· .483

Dn1111g the pR t clt."-YI'-11 ye~u:.::. 110 los:3es have bc'n \\ritten-ofl in (OllJH'C'tion ·with workers' rh- 'llinc"s-·trulv a mlenclicl reccrd.

T,.al~oo ::-nl11ni~ thes~ si'at.i8Hc~ jn counection ith ,,-orkcrs' home" up io 30th .June. 1930-

Toj al loan iurlcbtodnc.~;. J\rrcars o: i1 tcn~st Tottl [llTcars of intt~rest and

£ 1.026,503

417

unpnid purchn~c nlmH'Y . 23,965 (Rcducc'd on 31st Auguot. 1930. to £18,065)

Per cent. P('rCL'nta' of arrear· of int rest

to tot'a.l incl<'btedner,s .041 Precc·n~ L'·e of arrears of inter(;st'

and t;npaicl purchase n1oney 2.334

T!1e sntu £23.965. reprc . ..:;cnting arrears cf illtcrc_'q qnpa id purchase n1oney. is a rath('l' htlQ'U ~.UJrl, nd Ol1f' that CUUSC'S a

little nnxi f\~ n:;: to bo-w it v:ill be reduced or liqnirhtccl. ·"'cs I )an• st,ctcd. the amount has hen cowickrablv reduced.

-r~r e. KrnwAx: .Tlw dcpartn1 ut is ..-er.~- for­t Ul1[ltC' iu a1l the cir::tnnsLtnc <""S.

Th" SECRET), RY FOrt Pl'BLIC \YORKS: l thi11k Ro, too.

~Ir. T(JH\\._\X: It i:::. n. t=;Tf'at con1plirnent to rh0 honc~ty of the average worker.

Th" SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WOEKS: Tt mn't bP borne in mind. t•,o, that the

Workers' Homes Acts (l OCTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 1305

department has alwavs given the utmost sympathetic consideration to those who find themselves in diflieultics and arc unable to meet their commitments. Before this session terrninatc.0 an effort will be made to extend even .Q,Tt·.·ttcr consideration to those \Yho arc in finrtneial difficulti( ~ bv reason of unem­ploynwnt nnd other eans~)s o\·cr IYhirh thr-y haYc controL 1 think it is putc>nt to

!hat the PO' C:" <H' of a workrr's horue i~ fa vourabl situatr"J. fJnanc>ia1lv ih.1n i:-;, porhaps thP Q,yncr of a worker's dwelling:

3.~Ian:v of thcsP per~ons arc earning little rr1ore than the basic wage, b.·· far the greater aumh£'•r of ihrn1 bPing n10chanict'i. craft~u1en, dnd labourer dependent largely for employ.

Workers' Dwellings (from 1910) .. Discharged soldiers' dwellings (from 1917) ]1ood and cyclone restoration (from 1918) Workers' homes (from 192:J, . . . .

Totals

That is a large sum of money, but I contend it is mane,- which ha,; been C'xcellentlv spent in the intf'n,c;ts of the corr11nunity. ~

The total numbe-r of homes for workers con. .•truct.Pd siuco the close of the last fmancial year nunrber about eighty-three. It is inter-

;ting· to not·' that of the 17,491 citizens of the State \I ho np to 30th June·, 1930, were ::t~,sistecl bv tlte G-ovPrnrnent with loan money to erect tlwir 0'.\'!1 houS('S 6.959 hnd ·r0pai;l choir indebtedness in full and obtained dis· charge of their securities. r\..t that date rcpaynwnts by borrowers had reduced their total indebtedness from £7.215.729 to £4,008.044.

V.,.ieY\'ing the ho11sing legislation of the State all round, it has been Yen beneficial to the comrnuniiy gcnc,rallv, and has enabled rnany citizens to' secure holnr;;; of their owr1.

:Ylr. KIRWAX: The highest percentages of homeholders in the world is in Queensland.

1'he SECRETARY FOE. PUBLTC WORKS­T quite bclicye that to be so. This Bill pro­poses to amend a Yery useful piPce of hous· ing lrgi~lation in a very rr1atcrin 1 particular. When thc1 LcadPr of the Opposition wao speaking on the initiation of the Bill, he "at!wr twitted the Government with coming· down son1c-what late in the da; 'vith this particular legislation. ·

[3 p.m.] I would remind the hon. member that,

-whPn the \Yorkcrs' llonlt~5 Bill vas initi­lltcd. the Uorernmcnt of which the hon. gentlcn1a!l was a rn0rnber hacl eYery oppor­tunity o£ doing v~hat we propose to do now. We kno\Y. of course. that the policy of the L.J,bour Govcr11n1ent v.,-as a[\·ainst freehold tenure.

Mr. bcJif'VC ;;;tab:.

\V. FORGAN S}!ITH: 1n the dissipation

\Ye do not of the public

The SECRE'rARY F'OR PUBLIC WORKS' At the same time I venture to sav that, \.hen it come' to the actual point. hon. members opposite will themselves take the fmeholcl tenure in preference to any

ment on the economic position of the industrv in whir·h they are engaged. Payn1onb<-. as affecting '\Vork8rs' ho1ncs are heavier than in connection '~ ith workers' dwellings, for they include fire and life prcn1iu1ns, rcp;.~,irs, paint­ing, and •rent of land. I shall givo figures ~howing the activiti0s and st.ate of the two funcifl, to~·cthPr with tho total opcrationR from the incPplion of the scheme to 30th June la>t. I haYO al1·"ady stated that the figures l'L'lating to th~, hou _,il!g opera.-tlo'"S up to 0 conclusively drn1oustrat 'ha• a bir:; fa-tor the llboraJ hou~ing ]P~fislation h;ts l)cen to a, .3i~t ',·:orkcrs in obt ·, ining their o\ql holnPs. The fol10\Ying fi_glU'E'R ~ho1v the total op0r:1tions frmn the inC•!ption of the scheme 10 30tll June, 1930 :-

Number of Completed

Houst·"·

14,49R 612 44

2,216

1\nmber of i Honses I Total under i

Construction I 1\ umber· at ~Oth I

June, 1930. ·-----~------

77

44

' 14,775 612 44

2,260

Tohl Advances

Paid.

£ 5,723,229

232,332 13,550

1,246,618

17,370 121 17,491 \ £7,215,729

dhcr. 'l'lw fact remains that our vote for this work is pntcticaE·,y exhausted. People are tumbling over themselves to get houses undtr the scheme, and we cannot meet the demand. To some extent we have been curtailing the activities in connection with \vork .. r6' honH' "·· bccau~·e the arre::trs of rede1nption and intere~t are getting rather alannii1g.

Mr. PEI.SE: That is not the position up :'\orth, Lut cnly dovDl bC'rc.

The SECUETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: 'That m a v be so; but, so far as workers' (hvc1lirP's ~ arc eoncerucd, we a1e satisfying the clcn;and as far as possible, and as far as the money at our disposal may extend.

l\lr. llANLO='i: Has the department ever been able to supply snfril'ient workers' homes for the people '1

The SECR!£TARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: In actual practice it has bc,en found that at one time or another the department has had to go low.

Mr. HANLOX: 'I'hat shows that the tenure is quit£' popular with the people.

The SEl'RETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: Application" for workers' honu~s are _not being recciYcd to the sa1nc extent as apphca­tiocs for wod<~:crs' d-welling~; but I expect that a Y<)r-.;,· grf'at rcYival 1vi1l take placo in view of 'this legislation \Yhich will permit of the conversion from porpehal leasehold t 1 J freehold.

As I . xpl< inecl previously. the main object of the Bill is to giYo those pnsons who La YC ~yorkcrs' hou1cs the option of converting from pel'!J''tual l8asehold to frPcholcl tenure. I do 11ot ~think. it is JH~cessar .· for me to go ir,(o the principles of the Bill, v:hieh I cxplaim•d rather full) at the initiatory stage.

~Ir. : Then) i:- n1ore> in the Bill than conversion from perpetual lea,o· hold to freehold?

The SECEETARY l''OR PUBLIC' WORKS: Yes. I h<rvc o.lready outlined the chief pr-o· Yisions of the Bill, but I might also mention

Hon. B. M. King.]

1306 lVorkers' Homes Acts [ASSEMBLY.] A nu ndment Bill.

that provision is made that the capital value of the land wiil be accepted as the purchase price for the purpo::;c: of conyQrsion.

.\t the initiatory stage hem. tllC'rnbers opposite raisccl th0 point that the purchaser should ha,., the right of appeal in n'spect of the capital Yalue of the lanrl for conY(']'· sion purpost•s. I ban:; not gone full,· into the question, but an1 prepared to h0ar argurnent on it. If a good (·asc can be m a do out. I do not Sf'(' wh~~_, the· pur('ha;;: :1· ~~hou1d 1JOt

hayq the right of appeal, if he eou:-jdrr~ that ihe ctpital Yalue is r,YccssiYc.

:YJr. \Y. FoRG.\o: 8 ITH: \\'0 ask ~:nno conditions s.hould apply to

tlw tvpe

t!Lder A\ct pH.'-''-'f'd L~ st

oF L:udholdt•r tlH· Land ~\('!:-> SC!".Sl01L

The ;.;!•:CHET ~HY FOTI l'UBLTC \YORKS: 1 canuot st c any ohjcci-ion 10 thnt. Each ; ase. of cow·~P. vvill br dealt with ·on its merits. I will giYe the matter ~very

atiou before the E:ll '_TO·':" Iuto

Mr. \\'. lfoHG \:\ s~r!Tll: I ,Jwll mm" all ;:tnlcndrneut. in t.hat dirf'ct1on.

The SE,CRF.TARY FOR PUBLlC \YOHKR: I illt(~ud to n~ovc an anH:nc1mcut, ln..-.'self. and I tl1ink rho amendment that, I ·hav•• in my mind will meet the c,\se.

There is anotl1er nrovision in 1 he Bill which deal, with life a"uranco. \Ye ar'' making it possible to dispensc wi1h "";ur­ancf' aJtog0ther if :1. enso of lPlrrlship arir:cs. 1'o smnf' 0xtcnt that ma."':' clepn~cintc• the Ya.Iue of thP Sf'C'nrity. or n1a.y dopreeiah' the security held by the corporation.

Mr. IY. FmW_\K S)liTH: It will affpct tlte financial f'tabilib of th0 schf'nlc. -.,·hich i~ a mo't important matter.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: The insurance is only payable in the <'vent of d0ath. :llld such case::; are few and far between. Every case will be decided on it> rnerits. There is a ne-w provision which cna bl~s the corpmation to retransfer land that has been sm-rendered to the Cro\Yn for the pm·poee of a worker's home and the application has not bPen gone on '"ith. Th<' corporation clocs not want to hold thc•se lands. a.nd powpr i:;; being giYcn to retransfcr thcrn to thl' fonncr o1.vner or his <JP';igncc.

'rhcn there is nnother provifilion dealing with the power of the corporation in the r:asc of propertic~ that como into tho posses­sion of 1 hf' corporation. Po"'.Y£'r is givm1 to diopose of t,h('se properties to P' rsons other t.hHn qnn Iifif'cl JWI"SOJls or person", lvho rnu~r haYc the ncc0ssar:- qualifications t,o get a home nncleJ' the ·workers' nomos ~\et

Mr. KTHWAX: That means that thtlV e:1u sell i11 the op011 nwrket. "

The SECRETARY FOH PUBLIC \VORKS: Yes; and to an} purchaser. That is a ve17 wise provi:'lon. Th0re if' another nrovision dealing with contract;; whicb ha,~ boon fnllv performed. \\·hneby the owner may apply to convert his. tPnUrc' to freehold. rJ1his provi­~ion '"ill ct:'rtainl-r g·iyc tho~e \Yho havP­~eeurcJ workt't~' llonlC's au opportunit:~ to convert their lPa.::ehnlds into freehold\>.

l\Ir. KIRW.\X: \Yill the dcnosit be ,,t thP rate oi 10 per cent.? -

Tho SECHI,;TAH.Y FOR PUBLIC WOHKS: Yes.

Mr. Kmw.i:<:: \Nil! vou consider making it 5 per cent.' -

[Hon. R. ilrf. King.

The SECitETARY FOR PUBLIC \YOHKS: I shall b£' very g·lad to g-ive that matter consideration, bnt the idea i& that those: v.·ho have completed their contracts and who tl~·>in· to conv('rt may be able to rlo ::-o on ten annual payn1ents.

:Nlr. 1IAXLO~: IIavo many workers' homes been completely paid for?

The SECH.ETAitY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: There cnn'not be 1na:ny, as the Act carnc 1nto force in 1923 and tw•'Hty yeal's are allowetl to C'()Hlplctc thP h·np:1old, but .thr'ro llla!~ be ono o~· two pL•r:-.ous -who~ baYing the Hece::-~-try cash. haY<' paid up. I beg to move-

time. the Bill be now read a second

FURGA:\ Sl\UTH (Jluckay) : The Iion1es _._\et Is beir16 arnendcd by in certain directjons ~"1.s the

pointc<l out, this ,-,chPrne ~~' 1:;0111~ or supplementary to the \\ orK.ers Act 'l'hc \Yo1kcrs Dwcllmg>'

. .\et j~ older allcl t.h_c: one ~1nder whwh mo't Jwm''" lmve built, cluefly .due to UtP {act that it has been 111 opcra1~1on fo~~ <l gn~,tLC'r period ?f. ~irno. So:t;J-P .peopl.e ha\~~ be••n ]i;: blP to <'l'ltlCJse the . VV orl<ns Home, Act and corn pare its P.rov18IOns 'nrtlh tho .P in the \\TorkC'rs' Dvyell1ng.:; -:-4-ct. lrhat,. 111

JHV QJH1110ll, i.;; a V\lOllg att1tuflc Ol lTIIIld

bevcau.~e it \Va- uev{;r intended that there­,,lwulcl ]Jc any riva!1·y bct··,v?en the .two ,d>.cmc>. The \\'orkNs' DwcJ!Jugs Act 1s a .,plcndid measure. It was introduced first b1 t!Jc Hon. A. G. C. Hawthorn, IYho "'':" a· JVIinisb!r in the Kicl1:1ton CalJJnct, an,d It IY'lS further it!Ilf ndcd by the pr•:sent 'll:ea­""·er. who. in the course of Ins ,IJohbcal carcci·, has introduced some good B1lls.

The TRE\~URER interjected.

).lr. \Y. FORGA:'i' SMITH: From my kuowlet!go of humanity, I never take th0 vir \V that any man IB utterly and whollv bad-he is not 100 per cent. b.ad, ne1ther i, h" 100 per cont. good-and, whllo mcmbere of the present Governmen~ . are a bout the limit so far es then· pohtJCa\ vwws. are concNned, the'' lmve been occaswnally JC!en­tilicd with lcgislv.tion that has b(>ncfited th.e people. and the \Vorkers' Dw~llmgs Act Is ,,ne of those mcae ures. As I pomted out, the Bill was Jirst introduced hy. 1\Ir. Hawthorn: a further arnendmc:nt 1nakrng an rmprovc-1pent vvns introdnccJ by the present Trea­,urcl'; and tho Labour GoYcrnmcnt furth~n­ntcnded and liberalised th,' scheme .. A Blll , "' introduced by :VIr. 1'hcodore m 1916, and later on I fnrthcr improved the Act wlwn I was Sccretrtry for Public \Yorks.

Tht> nwo.suro which is being a1ncnded by 1 he }~ill undct consideration was first. int_ro­ducc-cl hv l\Ir. Theoclorc; but itR application ·,ya"- dcfc·rrcd owing to the shortage of loan money. It was provided that it should comfl into operation on a .dale to be proclaJmcd; but owir({ to thP curtailment of loan cxpen­{\ltur(_', due to <1 dispute overseas, a d~la~T took pl11co in hriuging the !nc:astuc l!lto operation. I had the honour of wtroducmg ;: furt11cr arncndn1ent to the schemP and plac~Dg it on its p'<-·cscnt baP>is. l had tlF hm1on1~ of in1tiatinn: the schcrne and corn~ 1110nf'ing it" opcraf.t'5ns rtnd laying down th~ basis for its adrninistration that has bePn [ol!owcd over sincr. It is \Cl'Y inkresting to nob that Queensland has :t higher per­Cf"ntagr of pcoplo owning or in the proces:1 of purchasing their own homes than a,n,

TVorkers' Homes Acts [l 0CTOBEH.l Amendment B-i71. 1307

other part of the civilised world. The pcr­('entage 111 Australia is without doubt higher than it is Phewhcre; but the percentage. m (,>uecnsland is the highest o£ all. iLdicatHJ?; that t.hc standards of living oi the pcoplf' ot this Rtntc ~on1parc fcl\~Ourabl:v with other countr1e~, .and that uncl0r fourtf'cn ,vrars of Labonr .uovPrnmcnt tlH\l \Yt~rt• able t:o -.tahlli:"0 thrir 11osition and illlpro·. o th:n~ hornc l1fc ln ('ountle:-.s cliif0rPnt wayf' wh1rh ltaYP ituprOYC'd the :-tnndard of citizen~hlp 1n t!:i~ Rtat~.

The :"11P·i;;;.tf'r no\\~ propo,P,::-. further 1o <Htl<'nd thi . ..: Rill 1n ct•rtan1 clil~'tiOn;-,. On0 of +h· dtir'f }Wono .. :·ll~ i-, tlw nli:cr:1tion in the t(·lLurc; nnothcr ch-als IYilh the question t·f : aJJd !:'f'Vci·al other clau:;;e, rh ~d ' i1h n1ight be de~cribcr1 <l" pur0l~~ nHLchint'r-- lllPa~Ul'C' thrrt haY-' to l'e taken note of i1.1 conjunction IYith the main ,:-onlcnd­nic•nts contnincd in the Blll.

\Vh011 the first n1ca·_ ure was introducedJ we had hvo re .tsons for presc~·ibi ng- perpetua1 h_'a:--ehold tc nurc-, and tlloso t~,-,o rcn:.ons rnust r1ot bP lost sight of. The fir~t i~ rhat w~..' \\'Cl copscion~ of the fact tLat. nn<lcr th 1•

housing l0gi~latiou tb0n on th.--· -.tatuto-book, ther\' '·a,.::, a large nnwbcr of pcnrJle c-qu:.Il:v dco:crYing of State flnf!ncial n~si~t nee who. hv virin~c- of their economic flO,itim1, could not takr• advantage of the liberal prcn·isions of the \Yorkm·,,' D•Yellings Act.

Fudcr that Act a YYorker must bo able to armngc for 20 JW!' cont. of tho east of the l.milcling- either in cash, land, or improve­nwnts un tlw land, jf hn IYishc~ to partici­pate in the benoflh of thP 'tatntc. That is to >'ay, 80 per cent. only of the value is found hy the Crown ; 20 pcr cont. has to be found b_\ !ho indiYidunl. During fl period of pro-;~ p(•l'Jty, \~·ii·.h Yalul'~ incrPasinu:, it ·was obYi­ouslyL diflieult for- a nnn1bC'r Of good cjtizens to find the first 20 per <'l'llt. \\', t-herefore. lnt roduccd the \York('r~' 1 T 01ll\ . \(·i i-'"~ ''1·r1

'vidf~ for prop]{ who~,\· t.axal-le iiF'0:1lt's tlid not t:'X<'eed £260 per unnun1, as conH)!il't'd ·~·ith a. gross 1naxi1nUJU of £416 undt'r the \Ycl'kers' V•.-cllinz->' Act. A man on £260 '' 10~~. particalarh· jf h0 has farni!,: and dPsin'~ to 'JiYP in ;r :...;o'Jd IHm:0. a.:; \Y<'

intended him to do, conld not afl'ord to pay on thr> tc'rm:~ undPr the \York!,::·s' Dw('lJjng..:; Act; and a schcmP had to be do"i r'd that ~,·ould nt oncP be finallclaUv .~Lund in iLelf and Yrithill the rnenns of t.lw ap]llitant. I have oxplaincd previoucly in this IIonso that t.b~ atnount vvhich an indiYidnal worker can afford to in rPnt Ol' unrh~r a hire-purcha·-e

]li..;; home hns b0L'n ('::C:; imatcd eompC'tcnt. ('cono~·ist; as bci!1g a ~nrn not

than one un·. s eal'_.ilngs 1n c~ch or ('Jln sixth . of his tc;tnl ~,·,coeklv

1nromc. \!ie,-.;;crl from that ".t·.tndpoint. and t.1klng jnto consideration the incou1e lir:.Jjta.­t io:1. it \' c•, obvious that ' diflicnJtv eo!l-frontc l the 'vho dt' .-i"N~ t1v; Il1C'a-,,urc: ('lll'-'c qu(•nt h- ,,-as proYldcd thnt t]u:-appllcant shoEL~ 5 p('r cc•nt. of the v.-duL' of the propo~wd horn0 as a rl0po.-i1, tlu: Crown to l'nr1 the -itP of tJ,e honw. lt is ohviouR that. if a ~uit ·.LJc arPa of land \Ya·~ ,[:-oin~ to co.l fr0rn £100 to £200. y,~hich cvould be the <1Yerag0 cost. of an allotn10Dt ~n a largo centre of p(qnllnt·ion, that ;nJn. c,ddcd to the f''" st of a hon'1e, 1'\·ould n1c·1n a prL~. mcnt in interest and rcdcrnption of the cap1taliilrr-tioll IYhich 1nru\d be loo a. burden for Ow G.pp}jc-allt to bear. is obvious; anrl in con-t'qncn{ o i.he State earricd tho crtpital Yuluc in the case of the land, charg-

mg 3 per cent. of the capital Yaluc as rental. and i -;ujng rn ln::;t"nn1f'l1t 111 the ~hape of a perpetual l('asc. The financial stability of tlH.' sc1wnll'. if jt, \Yas to be 1vithin the scorY' of pC'l'SOllS of lo\v inLornc, rPndercc1 that con1·:-:p Ilf'C .">Srli:v.

~\no\ hl'l· rcas;n fur adopt.ing that principle c;~ tFnurt~ vv;1'· OLC of genrLtl poli-u.\, as the ;\Iiui-t•'e Jucnboncd iu h!. spcc.•eh. The Lahour haYe rw desire to hide the

that clo nnt bclihe in the dissipa-of the public 0_st.atc. I take _the vio,Y_.­I :-:peak for th1~ party ou th1s cucsuon

-that. jf ~ll'l'·.~ 1~ a.nyth·ing in tlie nla·~forrrl of t.hv Party~ throughout _ntstraha dw_t L'Ccmo:uienlly and fl·orn thy

of the 11nhlir interest., lb

to land tt'JlUrc'. the public inl1critanc'--:.

put to its h.c 'Jt use. yalne._ ~I_t speculated 111. Prn·atc mdl­

not he entitled to ny un-creaU cl a rc·-ult of the

m ('l ,p hom point

jnrrcaslng tl~E? 10 tirn". That 1s this rP pcct.; and

to debate or anywhorP

Yicw of 0quity aud public interest.

I a!lirm without reservation that the cause of pon,rty as we understand it at the prc-.•J:t time, and the b:1sH r~f all furms. of r·xploitation, is to he found m the cXJstmg ..;-;-;-;tern of tlH~ owner~hip of the land 1?-Y )iriv .. to individuals. Tha_t system has bu_llt up a pri.-.ilcgcd class. m the commun~ty '.dw, bv \'lrt1w of their ownership. of tne !a]](L arc C'nablcd to levy on prodnctwn. and to char',!'C' l't.~nt in n::-;pect. of cycry actlvi~Y unon -wll1ch the hunwn race- engages. lt n{av be ~aid that in Quccnslr:u~cl. w~ere _we l1a\:C Yn~t areas of land, suc:h .a s1t~1abon <loos not ari>e; but th8 prmctplo IS the sanw. ~o mat.t.cr whether t.hc populatwn of the ~ountrv bo great or srnall, and no mc,•·tcr whc•th•~r the area of a country b_e Qreat or >'malL the principle stand_s. It IS

~Jb,·ions tlli>t. if land is alienated trom the Crown from ~·car to vPar, the tunc rnust :C,mc when ,c\\ the uocfnl land in the State will b, in private hand.~' and no furt.hf'l' land ,.-ill be available to the peopk .who rcquirc~ lt in futuro years. 1

Tl.te position then arisr..;; tbat in ordc~r to h\'_O a, ~nan

ha Ye access to Jund; ~~nd 1t w1ll~ be that if. as lh<:- rc·-ult of the 'Iory all tltc laurl hns b •en ali nat0d. the

people who own tlw land will be able to uta ~\n a flrsi charge• on all fonns of ~ro­dn- tion {or tlle use of ~hat ]and. 1he T .. abonr polic_\" h .., pyerythu?g t9 cornmcnd it.. awl tlwre is nothiug agamst It from th~· point of ,-icw of public interest. lf the lane! i." priY<-1 t0ly O\Yllf'd and a n1~n rf'quup-::. aetco39 to tln~t lan .l in ordor to hYC, th~n hr ra.n cmlv c•njoy that access hy i.hn vnl1 of ~onu' olhPr individual upon ihc payuH·nt_ o_f rent. 1\ hic·h. in -turn, HH'a_nfi th~Lt a, pn;·l­leg-ed class is being set up lH th~ ccHnc.tunit:.­to ·wborn the rest of th8 pco?le I_nust. pay t.cibntc ;, order to live. I bdwvo unpllct\ly ln the: l :.bour policy ' . ."lth to t.Y' o , ncr:~hip of land; jt ts U\-cr · point of Yit w. l~o le~~ thnll th0 late~ Slr SLrntu:l GriHith, one ti1nc Pre-

quconsLtnd, a,Ld u rna.n of great enr~o\1'111L'nt .. ;aid t;nvnrds tLe end .of

his t:'arC<'l' that. if h{' h~1d his opportunJL~ n"uin a~ Pree1ier of Quccusland. _he v•;oula not fnyour the nlic-nation of. a ~u_Jg1o acre of lantl-a view which it: ellttrely 1n acr;ord

Jlr. Srn-ith.]

1308 [ASSEMBLY.] Amrn.dment Bill.

with sound rconon1ic tlo .... ~trine and th0 pub­lic int,,n ;t.

\Yh: n land i" held under the system pro· videc! in th~ Bill, ~L beconH~s an iustrurnent for sp cqlat.ion, and 1 ot 811 in~~run1cnt for

\Ve on thi.:~ side clajn1 t.hat land rhould usPd to IncF: all the rcquirt?tnents of t11c

hurnan r<lc,·. If la11cl is suitab1e for the p_._oduction of \Yheat, then jt should bP used for tlw growing of \YhP.tt. Land should bo put its use va1nc. The vari.ous crops H'Hl nscs to which land can be put arc n1atters for ( ,F,Y dctcrmlnation.

The s.nnc thing holds good with regard tu lancl to liYe upon. ~-\ man requires land in order to bnilcl a shdtcr for himself nnd hi~ lcnendcnt.s. lie also needs land to onai>le hi1 r fo prodn< J food, articles of clothing-, and a1l the rnaterial thi11gs that are required unLlcr t.he 111odcrn ~tandards of civiljsation. Thorefor.c. 1 repeat, the land policy of a cow1trv e.Jwuld at all times be devised with thd Jlrinciplo in vioY.--that all the umcl of the State -hould be put to ii' be· t ns<> value.

On the othee hand. the oppom nts of Labour stPnd for n poli•·y that. is a negntiou of the use tcn.urP that I an1 affirrulng. 1'hc:v nand for a form of ownership of land that enable·' that ownership to become an instru­ment for spcLulation. The basis of financial organisation is found in the roc0gnition of this truth.

IIow man,\' people engaged in primar:; production at the present time in Queens­bud really fully and completely ov.n the land they uce '? If hon. members investi­gated their circurnst.ancps, thev ould find that the:.- me their deeds in fee simple as instru1nents on which to borruw rnonev. The banks and the financial instit.utim1s ;c·ontrol mon_' than two-thirds of the title dP0ds of QuecH~land. 'rhat giYes tlw~e insti~ tutions control OYer all forms of proG'1Ciion. The mortgagee holding the instrument. of land tenure gets control of the commodity that i, prodnccd on the land, and by that moam he g·cts control of pretty well the whole of tlw economic life of the nation. \Yhon tho people <f'Oll11' to realise tho inci­dence of this form of land tenure and the real signific~nce of th<' control of the land b, financial institutions b·1 reason of pr·csl'nt-day financial methods, they will re:tlic.e thP truth of what I 'av~that the Pxi:~l ing forms of land tonul·e cant 1in within tlH'lTJselye,, the f'ansr•; of poverty. and, \Cithont douLt. constitute the basis oc all forms of speculation.

The objoc\ of the principal ,\et, as I stated \rhcr: introducing th<~ rnew~nre in thP fi.1.~t. in.::.tance, ~,'.·as to provide homrs for those people who could not obtain homes under the condit-ion.;; f'_.:istin.g- at tlH' tirne. They were not in .1 financja1 position to obtain advanr'os nnder the \\~orkcrs' D\Yellings A_ct. 'rht'V h~ul not sufhcicnt financial r:·-Jource"' to ·~o to a pri1. ate financial institution. rrhcr,: fore, \.VP. l.':C'J'P cl Paling \Vith tho pr0-blen1 of finding }lO!fl{'R for T)80plc v~··ho [lt,

that tirne h: d no hm:nes of iheir own. \VP dt·\'i.:;rd 1 ;;:.clwrne 1vhcrebv th(' Crown found the lnnd. retained mn1ei,ehip in the land. built a ho .. Jsf.~ upon it. and .'Frt\'C the O\Yne1·

of the hon1e full ond con1pleto :--· curity in the trnun~ and C'lljo rnent of that h~)n1c. That is the bosis of iho princip-Jl ,\et. That is LP entirclv sound ba~,i . It iR entirely :-·ound for ilw.Sta,tc to use it:, fu1ances to giYO a:-:..sistanen to its C'it~zt~ns.. VV..,.hen a nu:u1 has the an1bit"ion to 01" n llis own horno-and it. should he a good home~it is an indi-

[JJr. Smith.

,ation that he is a good citizen. He is tlw kind of citi con who is required to build up a lwalthy, Yirile nation. It is a policy, thPrefore. that the State should encourage. Home life is an important element in the training of citizenship. That is anothc~r reason "\~?hy \Ye should encourage pe.ople to own their own hon'lCS and take an actin) interest in them. Therefore, the Stale is justified in using its n1oncy in iho best possible \Yay to make home' a\"ai!abk to tho p0ople ,\-hc::c inro111es are so lo;v lh , t thf'_y cannot obtain those conditions in arr other wa . The State, on the other hand, y;ould ne, b0 justified in lJUrchasiJ.g' land and hnndin'5 it over to pri\ ate individuals a.s an instrument of future ::::peculation. Tf pc:o1Jle \YHr~t to >PPculate in land, the.v f'<Hl

do .so Ulldcr thn la,v, but they ~hould 110t

he nss!f;tr'd in that pra~tico by the rc\-c-nnn of the C'row11 or the resources of the nation. Thai ii'\ tht' P'~,,..:itlon v:o take np.

Let nw deal -,·ith the mJtter from t'·e psychologi<:al aspect frorn ·which the Ministe:r ondeaYoured ro argue. The hon. gentlcnurn said that d<'ep down in the hearl of every

indi--<,ridual is the inRtinctivt~ 13.30 p.m.] Llcsin' to own land. to c11joy tlw

undisturbed possession of laud, to say to hinBclf. ,. 'rhi~ is rny land, and no on f'an take it fro1n 1nc." That \V a,,, P':<chological trait of character which ~linl,ster. in pffL'Ct.. said Wi'IS ineradicable in htunan nature. No\Y. everv instinct ln hunw.uity is hafwd ou :o:orne canSc. The .desire that pf10p1e lu:1ve for the nudisturbed po~~{'B­sion of land i~ an inheritance chw to the Pvih of the ynrv landlord svstem that the Niinist.Pr j .. f'ncJcavOuring to pcl·pctuatc ln Qucen:-3laniL In the oldcc· countries of Europl' tlw wcaltlticst and most influential section of thc conln1unitv consists of those "\vho for ~Offil' l'l'ason o1· 'atht-r vvt're aLl0 to obtain po:-:::"e~~ion of Jhe major portions of the lands of the countr.. In most cases their real title to those land~ 'c:-tnnot bPHl' inYcstigation front any ~onnd. ethlcnL or nloral standpoint. In 1nany ea· cs the land \Yae """urcd b' forms of th,,ft i~1 other ea'"'' it ~.~·as obtai:r.lCd in th0 sltap•' of gift~ bv king io sonlt' of their dt JC0ndant::; on tiH' ldi haLd. Furtlwr, it can be authcn­t-icatpc1 that cornmon lands \YC'l'f' stolen frorn th0 peqJl(' cltu·jn~ p0riocb of nat.ional rrisls For t-'X :rnplt'. during the Napoleonic 1vars, I' l1Pn PlP prolPi·t riat of Great. Britain fip.;hting· in EuropP, thr pcoplP who wert' landlord clnS< then, and whose dcsccnclanh arc thL~ laJJdJord class to-dav. took advantag•...: of the ahcencc of many ~Jf the pcopl<' to C'HelosP the eonlillOn lands. Th0 cconornic hif'tcn·\· of Eng·Jand fihov.s that to llr tru" _.\t or;e timc tile ~itizens had the rig-l1t to

grazo thPir cattle on the cmnrnon hnds, rnanv of tho:-;c lands V'erc stolen fron1 p0or)le \vlwn t]w genc·ral popuJ1r1' \'>f'rt'

f'nga~ ·d 1n tht~ Fnronr·1.n \Val':J. Ye, th~'­proplc' 'dw ~role that 1 <11d arr> l'"gan1Pd <t8

t hf' nrl~t('crn ·· · o~ --r.::--: ... 1ancl to-cl a,-, an cl <'n)n in our f:.-·hooi ,book; ,n~ arc p{~r-nCtnatlug tlw \Yrong and lPacliilg" ihe ·hild rnind to bctiPv. that ihoBe P'--'OIJl· :trc "\Yorthy of honour ·u1d g·oncral c.;;h'f:'lll.

Th, Sr•·.>.EHW FOR P-cBLIC Y1on~o;s: \Th;;'· ~chool book."! do you refer to?

~h. \V. VOHGAX RMITIT: I ,.,ill dc,J with that puint. ]nt<'l'. (GoYNnment laughb'r.) TlH· hon. gL'JJf]c'rn:uJ wi]J find that the hl~­torv books used ln thP State school~. Lot.h in Qu€cnsland an~ in th_ other Stat: ·"· show (1,

Lias in fayour of the perpetuation of th0"o

lVorkers' Homes Acts [1 OcTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 1309

iJeas-in a ,,·ord, that the British aristo­cracy i.' one of merit and abilitv rather than in Some casos duo to fortu{tous circum­st:mc s. into the details of which I need not cnttT to-Jav. IJo\\-ever. I -~~,111 discuss the

y;hc;r dealing "·ith tho Estimates fo,· Dt•partuwnt of ]_Jnblic In- trlL'tion.

L(•t rnc l'' \Tl't to the rnuin point of my from \Yhieh I wns dra\cn b.) the I was doalius with tl:' clai1n t.ha t

dccire 1he cornplet.:· and 11ndividf•d o··:r.c ;o.hip of land. \Yhich. I submit. is duo to cyi] effects of the landlord n-Jtcm that rs perpetuatPd in this State.·

Peop:c v:ho came to -e-\u~-Jralia originall_y roalisccl the eYiis of the landlord s'"·'t0m in their country of m'igin; and thcv' desired a.s hr '" possible in the cultiYation of the !awl not to bo subject to the dictates of anv ],,ndlord. That is the basis of the psychological aspect of the land tenure s} st· m. As a mattce of fact. the < •rsc of tlw "llllinister cannot be defended from anv sound point of vie''7

• 'Vhat n1en desire rs the undisturhed possession of tho land-the uLJisturbed use of tlw land~in a word, security of tenure. ·when a man has occurity of tenure, what more can he obtain fr,•m the State? If he is a farmer, he <;:m proceed to improYe the land. He can enjoy the full possession and ownership of the producc of his labour. No one can say him "Kuy" se far as the undishrbed uso of the land is conccrm'd; and under the perpetual leasehold system that is assured. Nothing rnore can be aRsurE'd under any o1hcr form of tenure. Land held in fee simpl13 is subject to taxation both by the Stoc, and the local authority. It is also snbj.c-ct to rcRumption. Untlcr any system of tonnrc-' .. Yen undo>r the land ht\YS of the prcsc·nt day~thc Shte is still the supremo 01.ller of all the land, inasmuch as it can t.akc thu land for an:\~ pub~ic purpo:;;c, if it 7/1 dt_>sires. r_rbcrcfore, fro;~_;_ thP point Of vic'·r of thr n1an \Y ho u·~,- thn. land and ir..tcuds to usP the land. Y;h ther it be for a hom·_>, for grazi11g pur 10..:;' ~. or for 1nixcd f<1rn1in~;. any instrunH•nt of title that g"ivos tLat scc,~rlt~,~ js cqnnl in Ya1uo i<J- an:,y other iPstrUE1C_ut. \Yl1at dk 3t1ini~tcr dcsir::c-, hov, is t:J perpetuate a s', -tc,~1 whc•rcbv the of- tf'nnrn c::.n be~ u~,_·d as aTI i1 ::;hTnJcnt for spccn1alio:n, ;hich I ha vu a.ln?ad.v sho\nl is th ~ basis for c..:isting fo~n1s of exploitation to~tluy.

Let me look ut it from the business point of ·vil'\>.-, Tho J\Jinish'r said that hml. YrlC1n­

bcrc C''t thi: side of the Hume, for Hw main parL. llO doubt ov.-nc•d the frccltold of tLcir land. Tltat is hue·. But is it po: >iblo for any 1nonJ·" !' of Parlla1nm1t to~(:a~7 whoso hm11c ~s in Bl'i~;banc or in any ·nf thC larger centtc~ z-f populatio~1 to obtain a pc~rpetual tmyn k -cho:d in proximity to tho city? 'Ih · an"'wcr is jn the nPgat:Yo. ..A. p.-"·p(;tual le' "cl• old is not avaibbl_e.

The s~cHET.\RY FOR PrBLIC \YanKS; It is HV2jlubl('.

l\fr. \',T. FORGAX SMITH; ~\bsolutc non­scusc·.

The S;:CRE2ARY FOil PUBLIC \YORKS; If ho ean g('t hold of a 1,]('('(~ of land on \Vhich t) en'ct. a \VDrker's hontc, ho ca.n get a pcrpch.1al lea"!":'.

1.h. W. FORGAN S::\IITH: TLat is a wo:rkcr's l~ome, and, in order to be elig-ible, ho mtt't come within the prm·i-·io:cs of tho Art. Members of Parliament do not come within ihe scope of the \Vorkers' Home~

.:\et. I atn putt~ng for\Yar~l the point raised bv th"; ::\Iini~tcr, \\·ho stntc•d in effect 'i:1at, ·u,'hilst hon. members on this side arc opposed to the freolwld tenure of land, yet they own the freeho-ld of thrir own homes. I am pointing out that it is i1npo3siblo for a ntcn1ber of P~lrlitul~cnt to ha\·e an-:~ othor fonn of tenure if ho de ires to live' in any cc:ntrc of popnlation. All the land orth \,'bile v,a~ alirnatcd :years ago. .It has ( ~lall J·d hauds 011 llUll1CrOUS OCCU'llOllS. BO

that, "·hether a mall likzcs it or not, if he \YanL; to build a hmne, he n1u~.t buy land under the existing· systcrn; and I arn point~ iug out that it is bad businP~s.

Take, for example, the n1nr: v;,ho buys a ['ieco of land for £300 in order to build a house on it. That costs hirn the current mte of interest, whether it be 5 per c~nt o;· any other rate. A man who has £300 iE crrsh can easil0 get 5 per cent. for it and more on gilt-edged security. If, on the o' her hand, he could g0t that land as a per pelllal leasehold at the same capital value, it is obvious that, under the law, he could get that land for 3 pe1· cent. of the capital value. The annual rental of that land under pcrpctnal le~sohold ·would be £9 per year on a valuation of £300. In the case of a mall who purchases a freehold at 5 per cent per annum it costs him £15 pe1· year-a diffcrLncc of £6 in fayour of perpetual lease hold. ObYiously it is not good business fmm the point of view of the man who Tants to use the land for a home or for fanning purposes to haYc anything othr:~r than a perpetual lease· hold. I repeat that from cYcry point of view. economically and motally, t.nd of the public interest, L::_bour',, policy with rcC(arcl to la1 ,j t ·nure is the best.

This Bill provides for a deposit of 10 per. cc•:Jt. on the capital value of the laad, the lwb.n< o to be paid in ten years. Tho c,JiJ.ister has\ not attcu1pted to show that, having rcgn rd to the lo1v l1Jcon1cs of thc~e pcopl , theY "·ill be ablu to affo-rd the addi­tional capitalisation. Take, fo1~ c:::arrtplo, 1 he o1.n1Cr of a \vorkPr's homP vvhoso incorne at. tlto tirnp he took over the homo wa··· , ay. £240 per annum.

Tlw SECHET.\llY For: PrBLIC \VanES: He ruay lw.Ye a net incon1o of £260.

1\Ir. \Y. FORGA;\ s:vJITH: That has rN.luccd as the result o£ the .'l.ctivit-· es o£ Uovcrn1nent; and no on'J kno~, s to ~.T. c·d' nt. it m a. be further reduced. That tli1ninl ,he.~ l1iS capacit to pay a in taJrncnt on the houso; yet under Bill the Ministf'l" proposes 'w ,,del to hi-. i:;d••btt~dncss by £100 or n1ore, ':vi'1ich, np Lo ,:ate is the a1Tcr~Lge capitnl value of th·:­lc et d. Under the Act his nLt income: mu,t not exceed £260

The SECHELIHY FOR PrBLJC \VoRKS; Sun>]y ]y: \vould be in a bt:tter po itlon then !

:~\Ir. \\r. FORGA:'.J SWITJI: lie might bo irt a hC'tter position thPn ~ but ~ have JlOint· d cut t11nt he cannot be in a brttc1~ po-"iti··n! as th result of thr\ prc-..ent Govcr11n1l'nt's ndion. E.-cr·,·bodv who \Vorks for "\\ H2: s·~ <!nd w0 ar0 d0alii1g -with the wage~ea1:ning clnh--lws had his P-:truings rnalcl·ial~_,. rpducrc.l as the rc~n1t of 1);C' pol-icy of t~lC' r.·re"t'nt GoY"l'nrncnt. lJnd0.r th1 l3il1 t h:• T\1ini--Lcr is qoing to tell tll(' individ .tl :\~dJ l:n~ a dintini .lied incornc- f:tJ·'~t.. 1f L..:_~ ~ (;C, irr ·-. lH~ can gc.\t the ftr--'Lilo1d of the L1· d proviJl•d ho eau pay n 10 per c ·nl. dllJC\o.:1t

Jir. Smith.]

l.310 TVorkets' Homes Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

on the 1·alue of the land, the remainder to be 1 d,id o\-er a per-iod of tl'n years. Obviously, with dimini~herl earnings an indiyiclual -~an­not l'C'asonably moot an increased capital c·ost. I kno·,y as .,-dl as the :Minister that £260 ;., thP not incoruo, and many people '!.'0 in for ·worker's hon1e· '' hos;~ gross inco1nes ·would Le in ex.ccs.'! of that; but we arc d~:aling with the gcnL•ra1 average ot those \\ ho come ithin tho scope of this Bill. A flin1iujsltcd earning· pO\YCr n1can~ a dcrrcascd capacity to mcc•t capital indebtedness.

The SECRETARY FOR Pt:BLIC \VoRKS: Sup­] ,u~e your ti-uvoriunent c~~1ne into power and r.he nHtn :rct, a you claittl an increased e.'lrn­ing power, don't yon thillk hP \Y11l hnYe ~onlP chance thPn '!

:\!r. W. FORGA:'\ ::l:\IITH: \Vhcn the L::thour .Party co1n, 1uto po\\ Lr, tho people will be so elated, and confidence wili be so ,_.<'~tared in couutles~ difff'rcnt directions. that the p·ople ·will L>e able to mc-c't their !1ayn1ent,;, in oYery po~ -_,iblu wa} ..... --\s R 1natter of fa(:t, the thin~· that is tronl1ling the people who haYl' ihl"'~l~ hornc~ to-day is ihe policy of the pn::.~ent Cio\·eriiHiellt. lL follows thmn ~:kc a uightnuJre throughout th\·ir daily liY< If thr·- arc in employment at tho

tinJt.:. the\ do not kno1v ho\v long ;yj]l ,Jf' omr;:o.' ,•cl; 1hoy do not know

]JO\Y long- th:~ C:\_i.sting \YHgP basl·-- lo\Y as it l:i, ·will -c>Olltinuo. ~.1.~ the 11ini,.·,tcr :a~·..-., \v-hcll our Go\·cnuac~lt comu intc• pcr,·:c~.L', tho ir:;crcased rarniug cavaclty of indl\·iduals \vho con1c \Ylthin the scopt· of this Bill will cnaUle tlF'1Il to lllCet all t!H~ir conunittncnts.

Tht> s~cnET-i.HY FO:a PLBLlC \YonEs: I did n·lt t-ay that.

:\lr. W. FUltU- \:'\ S:\IITll: I thank the ?-.Iinistce for af'king the quc~tlou and giYing lUt' .<ill opportuuity of 1·cplying.

Thf· ;:-;ECHET~\.HY FUH PUBLIC IYOEKS (lion. H. }.L King, ]AJf/UJ~): ~lr. Speaker, 1 rise~ to n point or· order. l a.:.:k tlw holl. JllC'Inbcr to acu•; ,t 1ny Jcn:aL l (lid ;·ot. , >-I

that there ~~ uuld hP an ilh:~·ea~{·d ~ un:n;: power if hou. ntc'lllbc·r~ O[ljHJ~'i'.__t' rl'liirnc•d to pov.-cr; bnt 1 did ,)_sic i i t hP Oppo~it io~1 did

Llad\. inLo have tht'" . ulfieiellL in their o·wn to tl1ink that there

\YOtdd be an incrca::.,c•J eurni11g powc:r.

~dr. \,'. FOUGA:'\ 8:\llTH (.Jiutkuy): lt i.., a. new idea for a J\linistcr to cudeavGtu ir .. int _rrupt 1ny speer:h. There is no point of order, but I acc·,pt the hon. gentlmu<tn's denial. Thure is, llo\YOYer, no reason why h~ t:-houlcl cndc:avour to ruah:e a speech in t lw ttliddk of mine; and I repeat that our poticy iR ·uch that, ·y;heu \,Tc l~,_turn to po\ver. the pcopl(~ will bP in a better position to n1t•ct tlH•ir con1u1itrnent·,, than thc·v are at tht• pr. ,, nt clay. ·

?\my l0t me clcal with tlw <JlWstion of this 11J per cent. dcpo~it. I takn tht' Yie\Y that it. should be reduced to 5 pc•t· com. Tht•n• ,u·c good rr·~lSOlls for that courst•. Thf' Crown O\Ub rnost of the land on \vhich tl1es~; home~ .tre built: couseqnently it will not b0 called t·pon to find ·or=: 1nurh IlP\~" l1JOtH'Y· if any. under tht~ F-chente. 2\-~ort~oycr, t:hc Act at rrncnL proYides f01· a deposit of 5 per ,-ent. of the eo· t. of tLP horn"; and ir can bP thnt iL is a rca~onablt> tlring-l hat a of 5 ]Wr cent. should b~· tcqnirc•d for tfJp purpo3C'S of acqniriu;r 1 he land_ T "m glad io kno\1- that the }linister is pl'eparcd to consjdcr nn anv•rH-1-Tn0nt to reduce the d0posit to 5 per cent., and

, Smith_

nbo an amendment to provide for a review of the capital value of the ]ar,d, as was clone ntder tho Land Acts Amendment Act passed Llst ses-;ion. It is provided in that Act that ''ny·one rna:· appeal to the Land Court for a revaluation or roassessment of his land values. If that is sound in the case of othPr iandholclPrs, it is sound in tho case of the Loldcr of land on which a worker's home i;; Luilt. J::lowevcr, '"e can lloal with that que~­tion jn IHOI'L' detail in Con1n1ittee

Tht> other point with which I want to deal it> in rr-~~·ard to the ase-uranco required Hndor thr· Act. Tlw law at present provide.' for conlpnl!'or~· a-.,tuancc, but. gin~R power to tbe ::vbni:;;;tpr lo CX('mpt an individual who for any satisfactory rca~on cannot bP in:3nrcd, iinU!lcinl reasons being regarded as coa1in~ uodc1· 1hat category. The l\'Iinist0r "ill be wrdl achi""cl to view these pmposab Yer: earcfull:Y. Lccauso thP Gnancial stahilitv c f tl1P \Yhole ~che-1ne to a large ext01it. d<'pellCL on the a~~'mranec proYision in HtP prinf·ipal Aet. [tl addition to that. the pl·ovi~ion establish('<; the principlP of thP de irul1ilitv of snC'h a~surancc~assnntncr­against tflf' conting-c•Jl<'iC':; of life genL'rallY. lt. i:-: a ""~:ery cuulforting thing for a n1an or ·a 1Xon1nu >, ho h::ts takpn on the cnpiial lia· hilit~· of a houh' to know that, in the oyent of anything happE'ning to the hr0adwinncr. the polic / of ::u::·~urance i':ill rnatnrf' and thn · ·itlo\"- o~· o1her dcpencla11ts. i'\'ill have thP l!OllH' h<'(; of chtn·~e. 'T'hat i-; thf' principle < ;nnained in ~he .. A.ct. There arC' ftnaneial reasons Il'mn 1 Le pulnt of viPV\., of Rerurit\ to thr· GoYf'rnmt>nt. but. t.lwrc is also th~· otln:r '·orial f-l'rvico a11d :benefit accrui1Jg frorn 0ncouraging peoplf~ to insure their lin_"'~. Tlwt i~ nu urHloubtPd benctlt in the ea:>•_• of a .:n~~l pay]Hg off his hon1e. It i~ a {'Olllforting fad to kno\v that, in the c\·cn1 of aHyt.lJillf~ hapll{'ning to him. hiH pollc~. of ,,.:: .... Ir u~c·: w11l mat.nrf'. aJJd his wife and dt•)wndants will obtain a hou'e without am· furth<•r liabilih- or difficulh·. That is a ver'v 1rnpol'tallt plulsc of tho ~sehemP, and on~~ which, tlO clonbt. is fnll·-· eonsidcrefl hv 1 h(b(' who underta.kf' the 11itbilitief!. I kno\;. of n1any case>-, ~>hel•t• these polici0s haYe bce11 of lnHloubtc'<l adYant..1g0 to tho,"-P \Vho took ilwm np. I remember a rasn the vPry firsi, ~-par the Act; was brought into operation. The contrad hod bcmt completed and the house had been handed over just a fortnight >Yhcn the contractee met w·ith a fcttal acci­dent. He had paid ono fortnightly pay­ment under the contract of sale when the nolicy maturecl, and hi, widow and dcpond­auts were handed oYer a new house as a free asset for all time. The Minister would be well aclvised to lw verv careful about undermining the stabilitv o'f t.ho scheme in relation to a~mrance policies. Undr r the ,c-hemc that has born in operation for some ,-oars. before I granted exemption from assurance I , .. ,_tJisfied m:self that the appli­CUllt. was in himself a satiRfactory applicant. ancl that h: had dependants who conic! assist in paying oiT the homf' in the event. of any­thing ha.!.nv~uing to the rwrson \Ybo signed 1 he contract. of sale. IIowcYer, we can deal »ith that matter at a later stage of the Bill.

Auotlu_-.r n1atb~r which arit"r:~ in councc­the Bill is thr· question of Yalue,

r\_ fC'w 'Yedu ago the hon. n1crn­To\\·n:-;-.-;illl"' ask('d th0 Prcrnier n.

ing- quPstion to the dfect 1d1<>·' f'i'. in Y1t'W of tho fall in 'vagcs and JI1 •;ahtP gPneralh· nnJ the condition of

TVorket·s' Homes Acts [l 0CTOBP~R.] Amendnunt Bill. 1311

tilll'Illplo.vmcnt, tho Government would take into consideration the revaluation of \vorker:5· d"\1:ellings and \Ynrkers' hornes to i:ring them imo proportion with the depleted r:unings of the workers. Thn Premit>r replied to thn effect that such CL

~rh0nw was under con~idcTatiou bY tlw Government.. and lw would announCe the nolicv of the GoYPrnmcnt in regard thereto ;,t tf;c proper time. It appears to me that thi' is the proper time to co11sicler that a . ..;JJpct. of thP question. l\!Iany hmne-o\:vncr;:; ~lr(~ alreadv in arrears \V-ith their comnlit­Illl'Hts, rhu·~ to the uncrnp1oytncnt of tlH· "\;:orkers who hrtve undertaken this n:spoll· ,j!JilitY. In addition, the \\'OrkNs haYe had tlwlr ·earning . .; ::eriouslv dirniui~ht>cl. lfaYP thP GovPr:uJlellt (riyf'n · anv ('onsiclPratiou to t)1e iix:1 tion oi ;; rcdur.c~t rato of inn·rcst nr 10 a t·etluf'ed <'<tpitalisation ehargL'. ~1:n­ill!~' rcg<ll'r1 10 changed cirl'llntStancC'::l •, fla~ th·- 2\tiini::;tPr consldf'red thP ndvii-;abili1y o: 0xtcnding tbc period of the loan, say. to thirt~· year,;' Th0 Act providP· that tl1u ncriod of the loan sha.ll bC" t\Y('ntv-ftYC Year:-:, ~Yil11 lJOI':t·r to (~xtend if the ·~linist(~\' ~o p~C'a .... c'. In addition, the \\C'Pkly paynlc·nb: proYid!· for 11J;.tilttr tta.nce and repnir:->. Thl' l'Pgulations ut~de1· tlic Act provide f~w . the rL'p'l1nting of .dli' ont~ ide of thr•1P bui~f~1lH~·' a 1€'?.'-'t OllCl' tn f'\'l'l'\- fin' ,·paJ's. bnt. 1f th( .nrilding is t onsb'1H.·ted p~·operl- and _of Quef'nsh.Ll)(1 hnnhYo:.d and is propcr1y Dlnlll­

L•~ inrtl. !ts lif0 is indc•finitP. Ua\·in:.;· rL·"~·ard to tJw di1niui:::hul f'.rnning:-'

f1f - ·wol'l.:l·r~. it \VOtdd bf~ \YOI'th \Yhill' thC' qne"'-tion of P'd'"ud-!.11g tlw

of loa :1 wit'h a viPw to bringing }\ .1 tl:-- t~r :1:' lJC<~1hl•' • be v;t ,-.kly or nlonthl:­

p:t.vmPnt~. 1 :-:.ufZ·:e-,;·~t tln1t th0 1\llni~tPr ~hnnld tlH A( t:hing~ :-<o that we nwy deal

in Cun1rnittnc. s~;m:TmY <OH P1;RLH' \YOR'"S: .\ Bill

be intrcdncC't1 yrry ~hortly on tho~o llnc"'

:\Ir. \Y. FOHG,\:\' SXI1Tii: Souwthiil~ iu tll.at 1~ nC'u.IPd and {Icsired. I do 110t irt' to sny an~·t1ling ftutlwr Oll thn B11l at rhi~ ta!.!,C' .anr1 v:ill rc,:-;erve fnrthcr com­!!h il to the Cn1nmHtee stagr. \~/hPn I hop ~ the !\Il~li~t-'r will "'hO\Y a di:::posit.ion to accept amcndtnPrd:-~ CJkulatC'd to improYc the Bi11.

'",IJ-. COOPETI (l!rrm, r): I '"ould lik<' to ,·l1·a \V (!ttPntion to the m a lllWl' in \Yblch land 1"' rr,t;'-ll'df'fl to·{L~v. The ftrst peculiar <-rt a tun' V' hirh drevv its01f ont of the s1imP n ne! ,,, .Jt n footing on r1ry land rcgardrcl that land r a nc-rc~··:"itY. The t'in1cs are ch-'nging ;·;m,idrrablv. I.a~1d heos been dealt with to :-.uch an cxt~:nt that it is re~.;ard0d as property. Tht\ old nwaning- of thr· word " property" J·eally denoted qnalih; but, to·day property

an Pntirely different nwaning-. 'VVebRte1· , " propt'rt:'o·" ns "the C'xclusiYc right

r pnssPss. enjov. or dispo·P of 3 thing: c ,\+'1Cr;.;hin.'' Land as::..umcd quito a different d-pPct when nwnership of land bec;,mc an P~tnhli~11Pc1 t·hinv,. I am not sure ·whether it. ";as ChntNton or Bclloc "·ho said that th0 g·!'t''flte<::t joke of nli t.irnc \Y.as the jok0 of the r•omn1rn r}(:.onlf' allowing conunon lands to bP Puo!o< d. There is 110 doubt that much of t1l(' trnuhlP \YC nrr snffc·rinrr from to-dav is <nP to the hd that we han' an cnti;·clv \vror;~:{ Yicw of land and its po""sps.,ion. ·ver~ rn YJ\ :-;·0'11'~ ago tlJC'\"0 \Yas an r<tstern poton­t>t1t' i.Tho fonnrl hirn:;<01f jn ~l'rions financial

month. He had exploited of producing revenue,

our Trca~urcr is exploit.­\Vas at his -..vii.)' end to

bJo'·'· what to do for more money. A specu­latoJ' came to him, and suggested that he should. foi' a consideration, transfer to him th<' rig·ht to all winds that blew over his ten·itory. Tlw ea~tPrn potentate sa\v that there wa:-' l'C'YPllliO to be obtained, and he ,old ro the SJ1<'Culator th<' right to all winds 1 hnt Ll(~W (J\'t}l' hl:s t(•rritorv. As soon as the lll.an .acqnil'C'd O\nlel'shlp vof t!w winds, he 11otified thr· O',\-nl·r~ of wiJJdn1ilb, those \Vho wt>t wiunnwi!lg +;heir graiu, all people who crwncd ::.a11iug· -:;hips. and all Pl'Ople <nvning any article that used the \Vind as a 1neans of pror1nl:'jon that rhcy tilwulrl pay hjul a certaill r<'lltal for the use of that wind. It w 1s l'< g-atdPU a~) a g·ood jokl' at tlw tintL' by the pt•OJlle; bLll, 'dwn they camP to realise 1 hat' th• .';wculator had the al>'olut<' right to

nll the wl11d~. it \nls n At'rious 111atter to l11ck;_·d ; and for souH· c·on:-;idPra ble tin1P

tiwy !1ad 10 pay tri!)tltt or purciHI""<:~ f'roru : ht· :-pr-ruLnor th(' right, t'o n~c.> the \Vi11ds. LaHd tC'nUJ't 1s \·cry much thl' '"arno thing to+d.a:·. J \:oplt' ha Yr eit.hP" acquired or pn1 -·ha'"0d f:·on1 the Son:rPigu the right to l!:-<t' tlH· an·d a1:y people using the lands of ~uch mu~t nav n'nt'a l for .--uch u~o. That i~ c.\Tii of land lHonopoly. 'l'l1e police· t h' Laliour l'a l'lY i,; 110t to hrP«k do"lnJ Lntd 1nonopol~·. but to prevent laud 111onopoly. ThP gTc•at t•Yil tha.t older COlllJtrjcs cl.l't:' :-:uffcring fl·orn to-da~Y-Und Of "\\hlch \',t' han' ovrr and CYer agni11 been \\' ·rH('d--1.-- rhc· fact thnt tlw bud hds got into thr> lwnd~ qf a fl'W. l find ihnt a gvntl0111an kilO\\ iu·-.,· Ul~lf·h of rJw cac.:e \'. rutt' thi~ about ialld HlOllOpoly wlwu a niOYl'tnt!nt w;-: ~ afoot ':.n altc!' tbC' tennn~ oF laHcl-

.. Th0 ranks of thf' ~acrcd b~nHl of priY-i­!egc and JUOHOpoly~-mc>n cl·'Jtationali~cd. kno\\~ing 110 c.:ountr,\-. al-fL·cting a .;;puriott:s pa triot1 ,_,lll. ~Cl'C'Pl1ling- v:ith jjugoistic h:v~teria \\ Jwn neet'~~ary to rig the~ HHI rkc·t · or lwf<HJl riH' pl•ople-an.: hur­

c-1o~in.:;· up. Tht•y c.aii upon their tltC')- poul· cxcitL'dl.v int<J thL·ir

thcv franhc.dh- c·ull their ~c·1:vanb to the.ir aid. Uold the stock exchange their

ternph•, i \Vorld their hunting- ground, their f•,llmY·man ihP go.me tlwv hunt. capture. ~ell. and dr~;;rar1c. Fro\n their fellm,·s they wrinn· the fruit-a of their toil, ."a Yf~ tl~e lnPai~ of ba J'(' ~ub~lstcncc~; and "·iU1 thi, ill-gotten gold purchase tho

o1·r" of tho earth, body and The lords of th<' land of Britain­

tho:;:e patriotir 1nen to whose nntiring eiTGr!.s on bt'half of the countrv a dest J'ted < "Juntryoido bears such pathetic witness­are called upon ... to show cause why they should continue to usurp the func· tions of the Deity."

That \,·as \Yritten bv a g·0ntlernan na1ned \Yilliam ::'v.lol'ris Hugheo. \\'ell known oncL' upon a time in this couutry. (L,lLightcr.) I

believe he has reeentlv written [4 p.m.] another pamphlet entitled "Bond

or Free," which I recommend for pemsal bv hon. members on both sides of th(' Cham.hcr.

'The land nolicv of the Labour Party is designed to r;vcrcOmo land n1onopoly in this co.nntr~". and to pr·E'Yent tho land being ahcnatcrl more thon it has been in the past. The real idc·1l would be for the State to own ih< freehohl of all land. If it i' good for an indiYirlual to hold tlw freehold of land, ~urely it is a g-ood thing for thP \Vholc of

p<'npJc, to own the fn,ehold of the land! a.re Ycry ,good reasons why the peop'lo

31r. Cooper.]

1312 Workers' Homes Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill,

ao a whole should hold the freehold ratlwr than allow it to got into the hands of pri­vate individuals. It has bf:en found in all countric~ \Yhoro laud h:..:.':., been allo'd "_,d to ~;et into the hands cf nri v . .ne individu(t,l:) that they use it, not for the adYanccrr1ent of the country, not for the advancement of l:h0 people as a. whoh', but for thojr iudiviuual betterment. If the people as a whole vW11

and hold the land, then it stands to n'ason that anything that is clone with the land will be clone for the betterment oi the ' hole of the people. l\ aturally, rent must bo paid by people who lease the land bnt with common ownership of the land tl~at rent "ould be devoted to the improvement of tbo public estate a.nd to the improvement of the country generally. Not only wonld the owners of tho land-that is, the people as a whole­receive a direct benef1t, but the specific people who were leasing it from the. people as a whole would also be in a position to receive benefit therefrom.

That the people should O>''n tho whole of the land is by no means a new policy ; and I want to sketch for a moment or two some of the main features of the greatest set of land htws that this world has ever known. There have not alwavs boon land laws as we know them at pr~se:rlt, and vf'ry rnany years ago a :nore handful of seventy people went clown mto Egypt. They \Yere a peculiar people, who kept themseh·cs to themselves; they absorbed none of tho customs nor the religions of the . people with whom they mmgled; nor dtd they int<'rmarry with them. After a sojourn of some 430 years in that laEd they left it somdhing· like 2,500.000 strong. At any rate, they had an army of 600,000 people, and it is cstihlat<'d that tho population that loft F:gynt on that historic occasion oxcccdod 2,500,000. They lived in Egypt long enough to make a complete stnd·.­of the land laws of Egypt. and although Egypt hetd a civilisation that ranked hi:;h amongst the civilisations of the clay, her land la'n were nossiblv the worst. The land was o ··n~d lw three s~ctions of the people­the priests. the Sovereign, and the arms. 'rho Israelites determined that. when they carne into their o\Yn po'Jsossion, no land la\YR

such as those in existence in Egypt should wm·rv them. ancl the remarkftblc fc:1.turo of the case is that long before they came into their own land thev had their own lfmd laws already fixed. They prm·idccl that lancJ should re tillnd for cix vcars. ard in the seventh year it should lie 'fallow. That was to prevent people ill-using the land und spoiling it altogct1wr.

They also provided that at thc end of R0V('11 times st)YPn yll'ars--that \Nas, in the fiftieth year-called i.he year of jubilee-the land should pa~s b.tek to its ·original ownorR. 'l11c land could not be sold for ever, and, ne> n'attcr how it might he dealt with in tho mo.mt.ime, during the fiftieth ycar-tho year of jubllr'c-thc lane! passed back to the people 'ivho orj:_;inally ownf':l it. ~~cYcr have there been land la'iYS of sud1 univcr~al benefit to tbP whok of the people as those land lrr '->s. 'I'bcrc wa, 0110 notable excep­tion to tho ,~ land laws, and that was that the owner of an allotment in a walled city w.ts not compelled to return the land to the original o mer in the year of jubilee. And thoro was a n'ry good rcacon for that-that t.ho lnncl upon which a man had his house :;hculd ~~.et be tu.l;:c_;_1_ fTvt~ii Li111. Tl1e L<:t'uuur 1?arty lr- '3 ucYcr argued and it has never put forward any very definite policy that

[Mr. Cooper.

people \Yho already own frcPhold should. return the land to the Crown. I do not think it can be found in a.nv of the writings policies, or expositions of. this party that lDncl ah·cad_,. alienated should be taken aw::y from its owners. As a. matter 0f fact, the LaLonr rnvvo:rncnt has neyer rai.::cd anv violent objection to a man having tha·t :-:ccurity .in order to secure him his own hcm'c: l:nt it has ttll objection. ;111d .till obircJs to the alienation of Jar"! that ta.kcs from the whole of the people the right to O\Yn the land that is theirs.

The SEcm:TARY FOR P"GBLIC "\VORKS: This Bill does not do that.

}lr. COOPER: I did not say that it did; but it is a very doubtful point whether any sot of people appointed for the time being as the trusteps of the lauds of the State­and that is all any Jllinistry or any Govern­ment aro-meroly trustees of the people for the time b,~ing-have the right to alienate fo•· all time the land that belongs to the whole of the peopL. unquestionably that stands to-day as an outstanding part of the policy of the Labour Party. It does not bc•lieve in any Government having the right t·} sell for eycr land that entirely belongs to t!JO people.

The question ha.s also been raised as to the ef!icacv of la od occupation; and un­douhtecllv 'land does return to people who use it p;·operly all tho value tbat has been placed upon it. There is an idea that !<we! in the citv does not return the value-that you must" cultivate land to get something· actually from it-to get tho value. That, is not ~o. You ran only get \vcalth from tht-; land by cultivating it, ar1-l using :it in that clirodion: but at time' valuo come from the bur( in other \i\ccs. I have been in~ fonlJPcl, and I haYP n~.., reason to clonbt it, tbut the 1ana upon \>:hich the propr ;''tY kno\Vn as J\1cvVhirters' in the Val:cv is built returns tD n1nnicipality of Eri"Sba,nc the ho]p of a:;~,<P'~f:'d value evcrv nine and a-half :n.:.'ar:-::. That is to say, the rat;-, lcvi( -1 by tlw City Cocmcil upon ?11c\Vhirt<'rs' propert.' -and I ( xpC'ct the Rttmo holds gt od in regard to the -whole of the propC'rtil ·-~ lii

Brisbane-rcturn tbo a \-3cs:;:cd value in f'Y('I'V nine and ::t-half vcar~. How dol'S land' retnrn that valu(·? Only be· r:•.cson of the fact that there arc around that land lar.c~ nulr:bers of people ,,,ho, by thrir lrFinr~ , t5~YC =Jc\\"hirt0rs the 110C'":3sar_~,~ profit ,,,J-Ji(~l allows them to hand back to tlw Cit: Conned cverv nine and a-half vears th· t"nll Yaluc. placed on it b:; the eo<n1ci1. Xow. that hnd mmt return to that firm-and the same llllh.t apply to all land~a gn 1tC'r return thr n that. othen1·ise the,· ':oulcl not. be ab!" to opc,·nto as they haYe bcon operating and a.: i.hey continue to operate.

Whc'1 \;c <eo the great '31uc that land rr:turns in its ratable capacity, \VC can sco the great as.oct the State has lost in allow­ino; <'rP'J.t tracts of its land to be alienated; tu;d a wisll people should hold on to tltc land that it already has so that it may bu ns:•d for the benefit of the whole of the ]WOp!e, and not for the profit of the fev .. \Vhcn a country is wise enouc;h to see that, m:mv of the troubles \VO sr-c to-d~n7-~!WXt"\ of tho things that aro nightrnarcs to u~~. 'vill becon1e thjngs of the past; and, 'vhi]c: \-,·p lwld :for onrsoh·c<J, and for the 'vhoic' of tlw people that which gi,·cs ns all our· ·.yealth, \Ve cannot go very far astray.

ll 0CTOBEH.] Amendment Bill. 1313

1\Ir. WINSTANLEY (Qnccnton): I lis­tc 0d to i:ho 1\Iinistel''s scrond reading speech, and tried to find out what _,-ere t:1c grounds for the present aE_encling :rneasurc.

The :first \Yorkcr j' llonLcs Dill ,,~as intro­duced into thio At cmblY for the simple reason that there v, 21e n great n1.1ny pcopl:' in the State who \YOre Vt...'rv n1uch in nc'crl of h01nes, but were unab]o ·for various rea­sons to gc•t homes uncle,· the \Yorkers' Dwell­ings Act. That Act necessitated a man having a frcdwld; and it had to be a freehold of f:· irly sub-tantial Yalue to enable him to borrow sufficient to buil<l a worker's d1\ elling on it. I-Ie had not only to ha ye the land, but a certain an1ount of cash as well. A number of people were able to do that; but, unfortunately, the pCJple who most needed the homos •xere those who were unable to go in for that scheme, as th~y were unable to get a freehold worth a certam amount in order to borrow, say, £300 from the corporation; and it w"s considered advisable that some other method should be adopted to assist people who were not suffi­cientlv well off to secure a freehold and get a wo;ker's d\velling, and, a" a consequence, the \Vorkers' Homes Act came into being. In order to relieve people of this class from having to provide this amount of capital, workers' homes were to be built on leasehold land. Tho land was acquired and the home built upon it, and the workers had to pay 3 per cent. on the capital value of the land, which seem~ to me to be an exceptionally good method; and it certainly enabled quite a numb,lr of people to obtain homes who would otherwise not have had the oppor­tunity of getting them.

The Minister mentioned that some of these people \verc in arrcar5 with their payn1ents. Ono does not wonder that people who have been going through hard times and making sacrifices to acquire homes for themselves when things were better for the worker than they are just now should find them­sclYcs jn arrc,trs. The opportunity of con­,-m-ting their lutsehold tenure into freehold tenure is not going to be of any uso to those people. 'l'here may be some who may be prepared to make their homes free­hold as they have paid tho amount duo for the home , and, of course, they will be able to me ,,t the condition- attachable to con.-crt­ing into freehold tenure. It seems to mo that the id,•al of a fr<-• hold title is a fchh -for it is nothing more or less-in the minds of the people. I am not very much con­cerned as h the title. The main point is that I think \he St 'tc ought to stick to the land which it hold at the pres:-nt timn; cJ•cl it will be a mistake if we let the freehold title go.

A Gov?rmi,JENT IvlisiB!'R: Do you own free­hold land?

J\Ir. WINSTAl\;LEY: I will satisfv the hon. member on that point in a minute. While the freehold title mav haYe some ndvantages. it sPenis a stran~ie thing that in thls case. \'lhrro a n1an would need to haYe lend \mrth £100. he puts the £100 down if he has it: ancl, if he has not, ho pays for the land by instalments. At the samo time lw could. retain the me of that land on making annual payments of 3 per cent. interest on the capital value. One of my crmstitucnts asked 1110 quite recently about the opportunity to change his leas.e­hold tenure into freehold tenure. -He sa !Cl that the land was worth £50. and he had £50 with which to pay for the land. I

1'930-4 M

:::aid, "That i::: quitl' t1·uc; but, 1f you have £50 to pay down for the land, you car invest that £50 in a Commonwealth bond and get double in inter•<~t ,,-hat you have to pay for rent." It had not struck him from that point of YiO<i at all; and I LelieYe that people 'ay they prefer frc,ehold brcausc the:,~ ha,-c noL ::;;cen th.~ advantage of pnrpctual lcm,hc-ld put in that \V,ty.

1 know that it has boon argued that, if a man has a fre~hold title, he can borrow on it, and that the ss:onrity is better than if he has only r, leasehold. I know that there are certain eircun!F>tanc..__s in ~,-hich a man has to take rrdYantage of the opportunity to borrow, but cYeryb<ody knows that much of our pastoral land is not held under free­hold tenure. In fact, ahnost all of it is leasehold, and under leases of not Yery long cluration at that; yet the holders are able to borrow on those lands without any diffi­cult-,- whatever. It sc0ms to me in reference to the prcs0nt Bill that the point is this: If the Government told me that ·I could either have a perpetual leas,,hold by paving 3 per cent. of the capital value or pay for tho land with money on which I could get 5 per cent. or more, I would prefer the leasehold, for the simple reason that I lived on leasehold land for thirty years, and. therefore, the idea of leasehold land has no terrors for me. EYeryhody knows that on golcl!Jelds such as Charters Towers the tenure is mostly leasehold, and it is not regarded as a disadvantage. People do not hes.itate to pnt improYements on the land. Freehold land was a positive hinderance t<r mining until the Govc'rnmcnt pa'Sed tho Mining on Pri,·ate Property Act. As a matter of fact, the old miner's right was regarded as being as go0d a title as even a min0r's ho~ncs~end lE'ase, In many cases a miner's right "''" the only title tho peopl•• had, and in some cases th(:-,~ put. up imposing premises on land held m:der that tenure. under which thc:c paid 10s. <1rigina!ly, but later it was reduced to Ss. per annum. I men­tion t}wt to sho ~· th:1t a1nongst people Ji'.~ing in such nrc·•s it \Vas rons:idPrcd tha~ it \va:-< \Yell worth whiie to hold !-·lid on that tenure, and thcv <vcre not so much concerned about the freehold valne as hon. mc:nbers o;1po, itc would have us b<>licve they were. I v. onld liko to ):oint out also that in Charters TowcrR the freehold title has in the conrs- of time con1e to be r·:gardc -1 rs a diP'1dvantaze in some cases, bccau:-e it has l;('cn sbovvn that in the tv:. o n'"~aiu st-reets, 1-rhr:n tJ1e tin1c rc-t.rrw that land ... ,~as not f:O Yalua.llc, ilte on1v people Yvho could noi in·oicl the p~;."n1cnt o'f r v.-~1'8 tho c wilo had -<t fn "ho1d tjtL.'. The JHthlr<:l eousc·qut~r: c was th --t, as n. vv,"Ly out of the difficulty, ·o,;e ir:dividual~a n1an of stl-(l'\·-rn.\']8 prn ·ti\ of going to fr, e-hol(:ers nncl h; 1 of thoir 1-::tnd in order that the\? avoid tho;:~._· li:.bili ties; so tlrat in ~rmw c:: ,r-, ('V('l1 a frerhold title is not all that it is cracked up to bo.

The Lc!1r1Pr of HJC Opposition has said thot. if ho had his v, av, he <vocdd giye dfcd to hi~ ohju,tion to tbo Govcrnn1ent giying a frccho1r1 title to any of tlw lnnd belonginc' to the Stat0. I arn rcn1inrlcd tha,t a forrnPr Secrctarv for Public Lands. ihe late Hon. .J. T. Bell, who was 11 man of the same po]i, tical oryinions as ben. n1on1ber.; sitting on thn Treasury bonrh at the prc£:cnt time. said ihat he had hoard his father say that it, \\'Ou!d have been a good thing foi· Quccm­land if she had never sold an acre of fn·•o­hold land, and that he held the same idea.

Mr. Winst~Jnley.]

1314 TVorkas' Hod/e.> Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Am, ndment Bill.

As a no:. t tcr of fact. one of our difficulties at the present tin1c is due to nothing lllOl'U

or less than land H10110poly. In rnany '.ray~ that is at the bottom of our troubles.

If thr Queensland Gm·erl:l!lcnt to-day were able to collect the ef·onomH· rent of all the land sold on a freehold oasis thev would l!aYe no diHiculty in bulanelug the~ Budget. Then' seems to be an idea preYalcnt that land held uwler tll(> leasehold title floe•; noc after the s.tme sccm·it · n' la]](.l held under the fr. dwld title, but' no OIH' knows better than thP J\finistPr hin15elf that there ls no ;::,UCh thing as absolutP 0".-I:er ... hlp of lant1.

The SECRETARY FOR PlBLIC \YOHKS: I adrnittt'd that.

:',lr. \VIXSTA:\'LEY: li land is n"Juircd for public purposps it { tn Ue acqull'ed under the Public 'Y\'ol'ks Land Hc,umption Act :qJon pa \ UlC'llt of cunqH~n~ation, but S0111{' people fl re of tlJ'' opinion that a greater un:lo:~nt i:::. paid by way· of t'Ol11pensation for freehold )aml thaH in the• ,., ·e of land h• ld under a l0CL::A~ho1d tcnun:. I question ver"": much ',dJothor tlwl i' -o. Tho amount of cmnpcn.-;;ation i~ ?1Wf\,1T1<'d hy thP Land Cotnt Lmdor thn Act referred to. and \\·hilst a fairly ;;;ub:;;tantial ~LUll 1nigbt hP a\Yarded

1

~fb•r all th0 a1nonHi j:-:; fixed on a prorH~'r basis, ha Yillg r\_ga rd to all the circurn­'tances. If land wcro acquired for public purposo~, i11 countries like Lngland, it ·would be fCSU111Pc1, hut in HlUll {aS CS ihP <ll110Ullt of con1pensation a"'>Yardc{1 has an1ountcd to :m abolutc scandal. and ir has to be paid by people least able to pa,· it. If the land upon v;hich \Yorkers' llonH-''"' are at p1·esc11t Pr.ctcd had been ofl'P·rr·rl for 3Uh' b-. th<' Govern1nent Ly wa~' o: public auction.· Lher{' \\·oulcl ha.ve b0en Yery liltk pm>pPct of tho,c' ·who 110\-Y Pnjo:-' thrir ho1nc :S being abh~ to f:.O'·ure thP nPr·f'~::'ary ]and np011 y,}Jie;h to construct tllo~P honH·~. That i:-; an11lly bertH' 6ut b,v the f,c-1: that lane! lH'lcl b,v prival" ownrrs h " b('l n 11la('t'd on the nHtrkct at a Yf'i"Y n1nch inrre:>1l'd v.:_.lnf'. I cn.nnot SC'L' '\d1.lt ,·~dyantar~c- is hOing to uccrue to thP 0\.Yll<:r-.· of \Yorkers' hon10~ upon t.ra nsfcrrin~t th(ir 1-itlc•" fro,n lNt"•lJOld to frc('holcl. Th~\' will bc· <:ttlkd upon to pa·; clown the ea pit d v.Jun of +iH~ ]and. lmt if lhi" nmount \Vcrc in' ('StL'd in otlH'-r dir.~etioJJs it ,.~:ould cer~ hti~.ly be ~ 1 ihcir advantagt~ feo1n a rnone­t:u-y point of vie . It nw,- b0 pos3iL1o for a nerson '.1·ho ~)os:::;c ,,.~ fr~·d1old deeds to borroYv 1vith gt'f':.ttf-'r c'ts·:, but I run inclined to tho opiniot tlwt pcople shoulcl be dis­{·dnra[:rJ rather tban rnc,)Ul'D.!Sed to plcdg-n the1r d1•Pd ,, and t.heil· hon1Pi. I an1 inclinf:'d to tblnk tLat qui1H a nunt1)C'1' of people in Queensland and in AtFtralia ha,-e sometimes pledged thPir homes for things they could vcrv '' ~]] ha,~o done witho•"., and thev hav<' bcei1 very sorry indF'd , .. b _n thcv ~found thernsPlY ,- unable to :Tdc\:·!n thei~~ l1omcs from the• flllancinl instilulions 'with which tlt;,~' were pledged.

In conc!H,ion. I wish to sav dcfinitelv that YYO WOnlcJ be nt.abJishiug a VCry gooci prin­Cl[llO il_,~ assf'rtmg thar the State should nnjoy nil that come from the land that helon!!'s to the Stall'. :\1y contention i.s tlllt fho S1ttto has the right'to the economie rcnt of th,• land. If any cYiclence were requirPd to show tlw diffPrcncc in the con­ditions of a countr~- where the people l1avo accL'SS iu the land. have t!H, right to culti­Ya tc t lw land, and ha vc the right to the use of the land. and the conditions of another c-ountry where these conditions do not exist,

[ lJI 1'. 1Yinstanley.

th<-'11 it j:-, shown clL•arlv bv conditions that operat.e in England. (JYL'~· 200 years ag·o. when none of the faciliti0s that we haYe in ~ xi::;tence at the pr0~ent tiu1e were iu yoguu tn England, the land was divided into tlll'ee pa,rts. The ba!'ons who were responsible for the clcfcnce of the country held a portion of t.hc land: the churc·h which yy·as responsible for the education of the people' and for maitPrs of <"harity control!Pd a portion of the land. Then there YYPl'O the commou l>tnds, YYhich the pPoplc used. It was autho­ritatin+· stated at that time that in three r~JOilths , a 1DH11 could 11roduce sufficient io l"t t. :) hirusclfJ hi~ wif('. and three children for t\Yelve HlOntb ·. I guarantee that there 1~ no \YOI·king 111'111 ill any l'Ouni_r~y· who ca11 rlo that to-day. l qncction whethc'r he call cw· that l!OW iu six n1o11th:::.

l "'" as confident as that I stand hero at the pre::;ellt tin1e that tho \vholo solution of our Jll'c~~:nt~dav troubles is to be found in the land question. \\\~ arc idling a\vaJ our time talking about reclLICing wages and about reducing iutcn~st, vYhen at th~: san1c time the landlord is getting away wtlh the rent. It vva-.; one of n1y plcasnros to l10ar the Tren­oUrPJ' introducing the Land Tax _\et Amcnd­lllcnt. ,:-\et to reirupo.se the super iand tax. I nnYer thought that he would imroduce that f3ill again: and the only fault I have to Jind with ir is that he did not seek authority to double the rate. I am ,,at;s/icd that there i~, a ~ource of reveJ}ue wl:ich would not injure thP indiviclual ot· impose a tax on indu~tr:v, but \Vou1c1 SC'Ck to obtain revenue from the land from those lw whom it is 1101v held, and ,yh\) haYp no" right to the J'<'Yclluc. I rlouC!t \' hcthcr much good will nceruc fron1 this BilL especially when Yery llHUl,\' of the people \\'hOr!l it f'C'cks to aid will he tmab\0 to Utkl' ach·antagc of tlw olfPr that j..; rnarle-.

:'llr. FOLEY (Lcichhanlt): '!!Jc main ol,jcct nf tlJl' Bill i~ to givP u ;;;op to a large number of indiYiduul~ \Yl1o have taken advantage of 1 h(~ \\·orker-,_.' ho!ncs srhen1o i11augurated by tht! Labour GoYC1Tll'-J8llt. Eiad jt not been for the critic i'sm oll'cr0d by the Opposition to the Land Acts Am0ndnH•nt Art last sc.'-'sion, it is po· ible that. no attempt Yvould have ),pea made bv the Gm crmnen t to allo\V the -., <Jrkr'r to ovin a piece of land on ihtJ frce­Lold tcmLro ''stem in prclercncc to the le ascholcl t.•nure svstmu.

The SECR;__;TARY FOH P1_;nL1.: \YORRS: X:n· Sf'Hse ~

J\Ir. FOLEY: It is all vcr; wcli for the 1-.on. gentlen1au to interject" " ~on-;euso !'·' when there was ample opportunity last sc~:;sion to introduce this L.,gislation. lt wa .. " llC'YCr thought· of until critici·m was offered from this side of tlw House because the holclNs of worken' homes blocks wore not being treated similarly to thu big land­holders in this State

The SECRETARY FOR PL'BLIC WoRKS: '.l'his is in the Premier's polic·y speQch.

~Ir. FOLEY: The whole arf!'ilmcnt against the Bill is based on the princl);le of freehold against leasehold tenures. As hon. members kno"·, this party has objectc·d to the freehold tc nu re practically oYer since it' inception. That \YUS as a result. of the thinkers in the Labour movement rcalisin;; that the funda­nwutal cau~e of tho troubles of the whole civilise<! world was land tenure. Land tenure goc'' to the whole root o£ the problems of poverty and distress of the working

Workers' Homes Act8 (l OCTOBER.] .Amendment Bill. 1313

r;opulation t.hrough?ut thn civili::-cd world. The people were drspo;,scsscd of the .owner­'hip of land as a .rP~ult of the a!'twns of tli<' brirrands anrl pirates 1n olden tunts who took tl~c !arJd from tlwm. The thing that !-nrpn~(~·c, nH~ js th<Jt the qovernrnent on (·YC'l'\- or:ca~iou, ·wJtcn they attempt to deal with the ruling depression. say that produc~ ti01J co."t~ mnst be reducec1: yl't wo find thmn JH rponatlng the systcu1 of private ownor­_..,hip in Ja11d. which we tried to break do·vn1 ctJHl \i·hich j::; direct1v rPsponsible for the 11·u·E:nsP in prodn,;tio:I~cost-:. in ev-ery civilised COlJlttl'Y.

_\ ea·::-:., in point i, rhe 2.'\orthcrn sugar areas, '· ),,.,.,. t ]! .. bnlk o! th0 land vas originally acq u i rl'd at a cost of 2o. 6cl. per acre and frc·<·hulderl O', rr a perioJ of twenty years. Bish(JP~ nnd orlH'l' inYc,,ror:-:., looking ahead for 1 l1t: orga11is~ttlons the.\~ 1·eprtsPnted, rnadc ln\'C~l!1H'1Jts i11 that l:tnd. I r 0 U1emher the

D.aradgoe EsLd··~, in the vif'inity l4.30 jJ.rn.] of lrmisfail, being cut up into

fanning block< in 1910 by the tl·u,u•,., of wmc bishop who had obt,.incd that lallll fur 2 6d. por aCl'>. ::_\Jo irnprovcn1cnt~ wen· llJadC' 011 that ]and, f•xcept that it was ·lcrtn·d by Uw Chinarnan '~ ho paid £1 per

YC.d' fur rent for it before J1c could ut'ilise it t·or l1i;-; purpo:-;c·~; ~vPt that land was sold at 1lw J'n t< of £21 per .ttrc for river frontage hlcwks. To,da v as the result of the demand for ]a;,d in thut area, it ' tnnot be pqrchased uL<ll'r from £50 to £80 pPr acre. In the face of that hon. 1nen1b('r.s ou the GoYonunont ,.i,]e talk about rPduction in costs of produc­tic~n. vvhil:st at the sarnc tirno they perpetuate a ,, ystet11 ''hi eh, nulike the leasehold system, dOl'!) nut l'L'turn florne rcYcnnc to the Cr-o"\vn for t!H· u;;:., of tlw people as a whole as the l'l'"llr of tlw collectin' effort that has been made f<)[' ti1c impro,,ement of the public e~ta tL'. At rhe present ti1nc tht~ rcYenue oht.airwd bv \Yay of n.).ntal fron1 the Crown it•r '>·hoids > £800.000 1" r annnm. If our jpq·i~.btors in the pnst had disp1aycr:1 any fort 'io,h and had not sold the nublic c .. tate as th,:,, did. and, if the .dwle of the land of Qm·<·H~land '""' ,,till rct'aincd bv the Crown, ou1· prc~.r·rn diHicultiPs 'vould be practically IIUil-('~;.i .. tPnt. br ctJnsc ~ufficient r>Jvenue would lH' ob~· .1 int'd fron1 the ('conon1ic rental valu.-~ n: the lnnd to OYCrcorrw our financial diHi­t·nltic''·

The SEcReTARY Fun PrBLIC' \YoRKS: Nincty­o ncr cent. of the land of th8 State is still

Hnt .UJicnatcd.

Mr. FOLEY: The statistics show that the 1mimproved lands in Queensland are worth £80.000.000. The bulk of those lands have bcc•n in1provod by community effort-by the building of railway:,, roads, etc. Taking thu vcr7 lo" figure of 1 per cent., the revenue that \voulcl be derin•cl by way of rental on those !anus would be £800.000 per annum if the land wero hPid bv the Crown under the perpetual lcusehold eystem. Further, if the fair economic rental value of the land vvcrt..). tak0n into con~iderat:.ionJ the figure \\'Onld probably be 2 per ce>nt. at the very lowest; anrl that would double the amount I han• rneHtioned and woul·d mean that the State> 'voulcl rcceivP rc.-onue of £1,600,000 hom that land. Yet' hon. members on the Gm·ernmc•n\' side, showing no breadth of out­look. still adhere to the old fetish that has bcc•n t•xploded over and oyer again, that hecholcl land is better than leasehold land. That may be argued from a speculative point of ,-ipv;, but no hon. member opposite can .convince me th:tt land, beca11se it is freehold,

will grow more wheat or any other product llwn leasehold land o± the same character. Again, leasehold ]and is transferable, and it~ redecJning feature is that the State, on behalf of t.hc people, retains the ownership o[ tho land, .md is entitled to its true e,onomic rental value. Can any hon. member a rgne that snch a system is unsound? In Brisbane to-day th0re is no c:nd of distress an1ong:o:t our bl1Biness people as tho result of ll1c high rcntals based on times of prosperity which >tro 0xacted by landlords. In odd cases thf'y have been forced to reduce their rents; hut. "\Yher0 a lea~,, 1-vas tak0n up in g,Jod tinws at a Yery high reHt. tho landlord to-da:y invariablv demands that the conditions of the lease shail he fulfilled.

}Ir. ~'bXWELL: Some of them do not get 4 p"l' cont. on their outlay.

}lr. FOLEY: The oc high rentals "·hi eh busint·~.s peopl(' haYe been forced to pay in C'ornpcting for the best busine<;:s sites have mPant an inrrca~,c in the cost of production. \Yho crt~•.tcrl tlw yeJups of these lands held ln- incliYiduab: Conununib· effort has c·~·pntPd tho...-,·; valnes, and the co1n1nunity >honlcl reap some rdnrn from those values.

The SECRE'f\RY FOR PuBLIC ·woRKS: Don't yon think the individual mernben; of tho c·omn1unih \Yho haYP increased tlu.· value .. ],ould get sonw !Jenefit from it?

}lr. FOLEY: That is what I am arguiniT. How can they get any benefit when the indi,-idual owm•r reaps all tho benefit·: The principle inYoln~d in this rnoasurc reallv tal~C'S fl·o1n the cmnnn1nitv anv benefit fror;1 all increasPd va !ne. notwithstanding the het that that incl'('a~ccl value has been created a tlll' result of the expenditure of public lUOlley,

Tlw SEC''!ETARY FOR PuBLIC \VORKS: Take a block of land on which '"''rkcrs' homes haYc been ercctecl. \Vho makes the Yalue of riwt properly'? The inclividcwl'! Ar·) tlJP\. not entitl('d to smno bcuelit ':

'~lr. li'OLEY: \Ye ha,,c no objection to the• indjy]dual rcnpiLg au~- Yalue that he cTca.tf'~. No O!h: cau logically prc .est agamst that, \\'hat ,.c object to is thut the landlorJ shonlcl gPt the, benefit of any unearned i11Cl'emcnt that i" created bv tho con1n1unity. . 4

... -l I pointed out preYiOu .. ly. ~-·L"l..gae htl..ds in ~orth QueBnsland ·which wcr.._ taken up at 2s. 6d. per acre arc to-day fetching up to £100 an acre. 'Ihat increased value has bc•en cre:>ted in the most part by !he building of railways and roads and competition in land. \Ye argue that the commumty should get the be ncfit of these increased Yalucs through the Crown in the form of rent. Somo of our greatest thinkers have shO\Yn that most of the evils of old ciYilisatiom w< re du0 to the priYate owner· c.hip of land. Henry George, in his classic " Poverty and Progress," proved conclu· siwly that the evils of older civilisations resulted from tl1o priYate ownership of land.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \VORKS: You penalised the o .n;ers of workers' homes by r0asscssing the rent at fixcJ periods.

Mr. FOLEY: That i· the whole principle of perpetual leasehold, 'l'hat is the only method that can be adopted to return to the Grown the increased values created bv the community as a whole, the individwil getting tho benl'fit of his efforts in improving his pro pert}. All that the Land Court deals with is the reassessment of the land ou its

Mr. J!'oley.]

1316 Vrorlcc:s' Ihmes Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

unimproYcd value, and not on the improved value at all; ttnd the unin1p~·ovcd value is croted by the community. Tho individual, of course, creates his quota, \vhich is inii11i~ lesimal, but the community as a whole create the value, tend '' e contend th t \>'e should have sorr1c return under tho perpetual }ease­hold system.

A GOVEHN'.\IE~T }\1£:\IBER: \Yill vou vote against freehold tmure under this ·Dill?

:Mr. FOLEY: l will vote against it purely on the gTound that the principle invo!Yed is a bad one. It is disinheriting tho corn· munity of something that the Governlllent have no right to take away from it. \Vo argue that morally the Gover11ment have no right to sell 1 inch of land in this State to any individual, and our argument is sound. The land is the property of tho community, and not of the individual. It OJn be used by individuals, and, under the protection of the leasehold tenure system, those individuals pay a tribute in the form of rent to the Crown for the use of the land. They can grow just as much wheat, fodder, fruit, or peanuts on that land as they can on freehold land. Perpetual lease· hold is just as useful as freehold to build a home upon. I protest as a member of this party against the introduction of such a scheme as this.

Mr. BEDFORD (Warrego): History pro­Yides cogent illustrations of the foolish­nee,, of this measure. :Mr. Caird, a very high financial authority in London, in com­paring the fmancial positions of Australia and Britain, said that it was all in favour of Australia. Ho instanced the fact that Britain's debt of £7.000,000.000 is not accom· panied by any of the security which Aus­tralia's public cloht of £1,100,000.000 has, not only in the ownership of most of its public utilitic,, but also in the ownership of a tremendous public estate. Any attempt to di>~sipate the public o'·tatc is dissipating the ,,-cnrit.v of the bondhoJcl,•e. of \\'hom our friends. oppo3ite a re so fond, provided that lw b8 forei~ n. It is an o.bsolute certainty that, when the Labour Government insisted that not anoth0r. acre of land in Queens· land should bo alrenated, they tremendously strcn~o thence! the security of the holders of the pur1io rl0bt. This State has still about 400,000.0~0 acres under public ownership. !lnd it 111u~t d1.rd to n: J.Ron that if thos:"' 1nnds were dissipated and alienated by half, then the s0r·urity for the public debt would be cut in half ~!so.

This is only the thin edge of the wedge, and the hon. member for Dalb:;, during the courc 0 of a debate lest year on the proposal to make prickly-pear leaseholds and other lea'?holds c ']Jable of being converted to fr,~hold, went further and said that pastoral runs should also be allowed to be made freehold. One c<n conoeiYe that, with an oxtcm:on of the term of Parliament to five years-which ••ould give hon. members oppo· site n1nch n1ore cournrrc than thcv haYe under the three-year ter1n-it would 'be pos· sib!e to alienate some of the finest land in this State now rented at 6d. per acre and N]ual to pastoral freeholds around Dubbo, the capital value of which is £8 an acre, and dispose of it on a twenty-years basis at a purchase price of 10s. per acre.

If that were done in the case of 1,000,000 acres. 5·,000,000 acres, or 10,000,000 acres, it would moan that this country would lose immense quantities of pastoral land, and

[Mr. Foley.

that. in the case of an alienation of 10.r JO.OOO acre,, it \VOLl id suffer a loss of £?5.000,000, which would again make the .security of our bondholders lt __ ss, and make the stupidity of the people ,,.ho introduce snch a proposal as thio only a little more

,. obvious. 'l'his is a rlirograde rnovcn1ont-a reversion to the privatJ O\Ynership of land. \Vo talk :1bont Australia's public clobt and the public debt of the State; hut wo know that it is " fact that in a land sale in Melbourne in 1837 an acre owned by the Howio estate was purchased for £82. It was at the corner of Collins stroet ancl Swanston street. and its value now for resale is in the vicinjty of rnillions; so that ono can see that, if we take only the main streets of the capitals of Australia, if they had bc2n scttlc,d under the perpetual leasohold system, with periodical revaluation.. or 'reassess· ments, there would have been no public debt in Australia at all except for war. But, of course, if you want to go in for war, you must pay for the pleasure.

It must be apparent that the owners of froeholds in Brisbane regret the fact that there is no perpetual leasehold there. \V a­have cases in Queen street whero the rates amount to £1 per week, or £52 per year per frontage foot; and that is all owing to· the fact that the congested business area of the city under a freehold and competitive system to a large extent permits values to be inftac0d, and sooner or later must cause these tremendous taxes to be imposed on the people, because that £52 per annum per frontage foot is naturally passed on to· the public, as is also the general extrava­gance of the municipality in the matter of a town hall costing £1.000,000, which will be up to £2,000,000 before it is finished. It has been recognised by all the great philo­sophers of the \Yorld-during the last 200 years, at any rate-that the syst'lm of the priv.•te ownership of land is evil; and by t,hc time the term of this Government h''S ended that evil will have become so gi·eat and the injustice to the community so marked that it will be generally recognisc·d that the most retrograde step that could be taken by any State which hc.s once triPd perpetual leasehold has been taken by the prc·_ent Uo...-crnment. In the case of perpetual leH'0hold land the cmmnunitv has provided the b,_ttcrmcnt for the land; and it rt-aps the h 'ne fit,; but in the case of fnehold land, { ·Peo;ally in congested areas of the city, tho people who provide the extra revenue from tbt J and by bringing their custom to it, and the State gcncrclly, provide the bcttc,r­nwnt, but they do not get any return at all. It is a ycry bad business. It is part d the general scheme of this Government to aliena! all land. \Ve have the very explicit and candid hon. member for Dalby, probably talking out of his turn so far as the diplomat_, of the party are concerned, saying that h,- hoped to see pastoral leases made freehold; and I haYc not the slightest doubt that, if the Government get their way with the five-year period, they will do things of this enormity, only on a bigger scale.

Question " That the Bill be now read a second time" (Mr. King's motion)-put and passed.

Comidcration of the Dill in Committee made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

Coroners Bill. [l 0CTOBEH.] Co!'Oners Bill. 1317

COllO:\EHS BILL. CmEIIITTEE.

.llr. RoUcrts, East 11oo:coomba, in the chair.)

Clauses 1, 2. and 3 agreed to. Clause 4-''Appointment of coroners"­

The .\TTOH:\EY-GE:\EHAL (Ran ::\. F. :\laq:rroart:·, South JJrisban ·): I beg to move ~ h<· follo-,.,.ing an1enclrncnt :-

" On page 2, line 49, after tllC' word--­' coroner '

iJHcrt the \Yords-' and to hold the incfllcst as peciflcd 111 sur:h request.' "

tltiuk i! ·s the hon. rnc1nbcr ior Fiin,h~rs \' ]J(} on another ~ta ~l' of the Bill ~ lwthcr n jugtice uf tl1e l)eacc \Yould lY' ;·mJ"titutetl ~t coroner for a definite period. Dl only 1n l'c'spcct of i"peci!ic cases. I said , t the tirn(' that I ha cl uot \ erv 1nnch doubt a Lout the utattcr; and I a1n" rnov!ng thli :ntt·ntlJucnt "\Yith n Yic, to placing tlF'

Hlatl-t'r b{•yond any doubt -~vhateYer. If a _ll16tlt·e of thu pPaco is requested to act as a <·oroncT jn r0spcct of a rnatter in co1~ncction Fith 'Yhich a 11olice magistrate or a, 1.Jerk of petty ;.;,p~.:;ious cannot act, thC'n he v.·ill act only in respect of the particular case in connection with which Lhc request is .ruade.

:\Ir. MLTLLAX (Fiindcrs): I had in mincl 1lw fnet of a justice of the pcaec being «j•poiHtc•d who was not quite fitted for the \':ork; and I held that he should not bo coutimwd in till' position fot· life. but only to hold an inquest into a specific death. The ' nwndmcnt moved hy ihc ~1inister places the nLltter !Jeyoncl an_<;,· doubt wbate,·(•r.

Amcndmcut (Jir. Jlucrfroarl!f) agreed to.

Tl"· ATTOR:-;EY-GE?\ERAL (Hon. ?\ . .F. :.tacg-roarty, South !Jrislwnc): I beg to moYO 1 }:p following anlt'ndnu~·nt :-

,,On page 2. line 53. after the word-­' COl'OllC'l''

imnt the \vords-' jn regard to such iJJqucf:t as specj­{icd in such request.' "

Thi~ is 'l consequential arncndmcnt, anti no fudhc•r conuncnt is neccssars.

ArucrH1n1eut agreed to.

Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 5-" .Juri . .,dirtion of coroner J.

_j,~rrtr(sts on dtath "-

:\IJ·. H.\:-iLON (lthaca): This clause reads-,, En'rv coroner shall haYc jurisdiction

througho'ut Queen,land to inquire into the manner and cause of the death of an> person . . . "

ft e l·o prO\·ides-" It shall be the dutv of eYerv

coroner to inquir(: into the~ n1anner an~l cau::-0 of any death ... ''

TiH' c-in·umstancc\; :::urrounding the death are >Pt otlt in the clause. The "Truth" ne\YS­

\Yhcn this Blll \Yas introduced, sug­Unlt the u·",l~ of th0 worcl " any" quoted 1\0Ul(l nH an that an .inque·,,t need not

inio eYery death; and suggested that llte word " every '' should be nsed. I do not know wlwtllC'r thnc is auything sound i1• that eoni ention or not; but 1 should ;ikc 10 Jwyp thP n'-surance of the Attornev­( > ncral that an inoucst will be held into ,.,·en· death "·hich take, place in the circum­-cLaw·c·:'i ontlin0d in this clau~e.

Tlw Xl"l'OHKBY-CEXEIL\L (Hon. N. F. tlaep;roarty, }-.,'rJuth JJrisUane): It i::; usual to ust' the 'vord " anv" under such circum­~tancc~. I au1 qui tO cmn inc.:)d that, in the evPnt of aw.- death. -w matter from what cause, it \vill be con11_1ctcnt n11dcr thi·1 clause to hold an inquiry jnto the 1nanncr and ulnet• of the death of ueh person.

nrr. l(IR\VAX: Then " any" would HF an ,; en~r~·'' in f3uch a < 'l.SO?

Tho ATTOR:XEY-GE:'-~ERAL: ·Yes, I an1 quite .sun~ of it.

~Ir. IIAJ'\LO:\' (ltlwcu): I beg to moYll the follO\Yillg anH ndnH'lJt :--

,,On ra·' .. : 3. lines 27 a11c1 28, after the \YOJ'{1--- -

· c-ircunl--t- ncc'"i 1

ill:"Prt the 'vcrd··---

' including circuinst-lnCeJ ap11arentl2. disc!D:in~ suici(1

' ' '

,\t u pn•,-ious :;tage of this Bill the Attor­llE'Y-UcHeral stur!.!'c~ted that ca'~t)s of suicide \\·r-"rP fu1h' co\~,-l·ed l)\· this clause. ~'1here :-'('l'lll::l tD l.w a doubt a's to whether inquiries call be held in the ca~e of suicides. and it would be a good idea if the Attorney­General accc'ptecl thr· amendment so that this doubt can be> l'C'IllOYccl. The amendment dimiuates any possibilih· of a ·dispute. It f rC'quent ly happC'n:- that courts take a differPllt viPw of our lPgislation to \vhat lw11. rn0rnbc•rs take \Yhen passing that legjs­lation. Suicidt• i:" not s:lC'cificalb· rnrntioned in thi~ clan:5P. 'J.'hf' an1end1nent ·will 1nako the clau'c watl'l'tight. and we would then LaYt> an as:-:;urance that inquiries in the ea~(' of suicides would Hot be pa;;::scd over. ('ascs of allPgcd suicide haYC eauYcd a good <kal of (•oncr'rn in the co1nnlunitv of recent yPar~. Suic•idcs an• occurring under circum­,;tauces practically denoting· that some other per~oll is respon:-;iblc for the suicide, and, althcugh that person i~ not legally guilty, he or slw may be moraH.1· guilty of murder. Tt is desirable that cases of that kind should Lw probed in order that society may protect propl<' fron1 such inflnPllCCS. rr'hcn, if Par­lian!C;lt (1ecidf'S so to do, it can take such action as is neersf'ary. \Yhcre there aro any unusual cirrun1stancc attending the cause o! death, the fullt'St inquiry should be con­ducted to aF;ccrtaia ·whether anv aetiDn should be taken in the public interests.

The ATTORKEY-GENERc\L (Hon. N. IT. 11argroarty. ,\'outh Brisbane): I ca1~not accept th0 amt)Edn1ent, us tho clause> g1ves effect to what the hon. member desires. Inquiric~ iuto the suicide of any person will he held under paragraphs (a), (b), (c), and (d) of this clause. If a person is "killed," then hu or she can kill himself or herself. That i~ :::.uicide. If a person " is found dro,YnEd," thPn that person can drown him­::;01f or hPrsclf. That is suirid0. If a person '·dies a sudden d0ath of \Vhich the caHsc i;;; nnkncrwn, '' or " di0s under an.v suspicious or nnu-3tutl circnnlstances''-and it is unusual for a pcr"m to !<ill himself or herself-the:1 I am quite confident ihat under this clause an inquiry ca.n be conducted into such death.

~Ir: H"\~LOX: You kno'v there arc quite a l•.t Df peoplc fonntl dead to-day under cir­cum~tanccs d0noting suicide.

The ATTOR:\EY-GE:\'ERAL: In all cases of suspected :-::-niride an inquiry 1nust !J., hold under one of the paragraphs in this elausc. I assure the hon. 1n~1nber that what

Hon. N. F. JliacgriJarty.]

1318 Coronus Bill. [ASSE:MBL Y.] Coroners Bill.

h,, de,ires is COYt>rccl sufficienllv by the Yarious paragr8 ph:" in thi~ c1au:-;e V

Mr. C\h;LLA~: What Pll'ect would the :inclu:<.ion of tho \Yords in thr, an1endntent have?

Tlw .\.TTOH.N.EY-GKC\'ERAL: To be quite frank, it \vould be foolish to insert those "\Ynrds.

Nlr. HAKLO~: The amendment would not detrad from the efficiency of iho clause.

[5 p.m.]

fhe ATTORKEY-GE:\'ERAL: It would. I: w<mlcl be foolish to insert it. Paragraphs

(/;), le), am! (d) includ•· suicide, and it unneccs::;ary to in~f'l't the -;,vonls " including

( ircun1stanccs apparent}~, discksing suicide." 1n any suirido an inquiry 1nust be hclc~,.

.-\uwndmcnt (Jfr. Hanlon) neg-atived.

The _\TTORKEY-GE:\ERAL (Hon. ::\'. F. Ma<'groarty, South Brisbane): I beg- to moYe t r)'-~' following anlendrncnt:-

'' On page 3, after line 46, insert tho follo\vlng paragraph:-

. (j) Dies, not h>tving been attended b,~\~ a nlct..Hca 1 practitioner at any period within three months prior to his death.' "

Mr. KmwA~: \Yould not paragraph (f) ec,vcr that? Surely no doctor would give a c-c·rtificntn under those circumstances!

The A'I'TOR:i\"EY-GENERAL: 1 havo heard of such a thing being done.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. HANLON (ltlwca): I bog to move the fo1lowing e:unendment :-

" On page 3, line 47, after the word­' inquire,'

insert the words-' as soon as n1ay be possible.' "

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Hon. N. F. Macgroarty, South JJrisbane) : There may be wmc question as to the ex-act meaning of the words "as soon as may be possible." If the hon. member will alter his amendment to insert the wor-d "forthwith," it will make the matter more definite, and I shall be prepared to am opt it.

}vfr. I-IXi'\L0:;'\1 (ltlw -,,): Then I ask leave to n1ove n1y amendment in the form suggcl:"ted hy thP .t\ttorncy·Gencral-

" On page 3, line 47, after the word­' inquire,'

in;.;r•rt the \vorrl -'forthwith.' "

H j,; clc,imble that there should be no delav in these <'D.scs, bfl...Juse very cften 1nateriO:l "~\it'nt .::~ s ha-..;c an opportnnit:v of getting out 01 reach.

Amendment agreed to.

The ATTORNEY-GENEHAL (Hen. N. F. L\iacgronrtv, S0uth llrishruu): I beg to n10YP the f·J!lmnng amendment:---

"On page 3, aft<'.- line 51, insert the following proviso to subclanse (2) :-

'Provided that no inquc,t shall be hold aftc r the cxniration of six months from I he elate of death. or after the expiration of six months from the date

f the finding of the clc,acl bodv unless the l\1ini tor otherwise orders.'_;

[Hon. N. F. Jlfacgroarty.

Th0rc must· be sonw limit to the dale f0r hclding- ~uch an inquest. and I think tlv HJnPndrnenl is a rcasonabl0 one.

:\1r. H,\l\LOX: \Vhat would be the govern­ing factor in the case of a body being found twelve months after the date of death?

The "\T'l'OR~EY-GE:'\ER,\L: ,\n iuquin· could be held within six months from the <L t'L' of r0coycr~v of the bolly.

J.Ir. ::\lFLL\X: \Yhat i~ the preseut po.;;;ition?

The ATTOH~EY-G.E~ER.\L: The :.1w is ~ilPnt 011 the m "ttt:l'.

Mr. HAJ'\LO:'\ ilth•tr,,): \\'hat the _\ttonwy-Geiwral hcts stated is qnitr, all right; but it n1ust Le rcnlctubered that peup]o nro ofh~n dPccntl.v bul'icd when .,uspiciou arises. in the nli .. td"' of. ~a;', tht• ~)o]ice a~ to the rna11ner in which tho::;p pCl'::iOlB n1ct their death. During- th<' culTent -pear \Ye hac! a case when c· 'ladv in the coui1trv lo't trace of her si::;V·r. and. ·uu 1naking inqi1iries. found that the 'ister WC>' dead anrl burierl in Brisbane. A cPrtificate had apparE-nt!~· hl'cn issued : hnt graY(' :-snspif'ions wcro Drouse,_·l as to llw cans,, of death. although i.he bod·,· ha cl been burictl for somP tinw . The bodv \\·ao c>xhumecl to enable m• dical 111011 to express an opinion ai' to dle f'ause of death. but no action was taken. Still. it is JlCCCSSary to h:1ve the )JOWCr tO hold cw inf(uiry. I take it that the ~linister dt:pcnds on his power to order an Inquest if suspicious circntnstances arise, 110 n1atter how long it may be after the actual death.

The ATTOR:,mY-GEXERAL (Hon. -:\. F. ::VIacgroarty, South Brisbane): Then' is a limited time allowed for holding an inquest unless the :Minister otherwise orders. If fctcts of a suspicious nature are broug·ht to­the l\1inister':; noticP after six rnonths. Yery naturally he would order an inquest. I was the lilinistN who ordered the exhumation of the body in the case referred to by the hon. member; but, unfortunately, the bod:; was so decomposed as to be of no help, ana proceedings could !Jot possibly be taken. If a time limit of six months from the date of death or the Hncling of the body is fixed. the l\Iinister has pow01· to order an inquest "t any time.

~Ir. KIRvYA::\' (Rrislwnr): That is ' YCr.'­npcessary power. Those who havP followe-d the press lately "·ill have read of a sensa­tional case in Xcw South \Vales whern practically onl7 thP bones of a youn;; girl were found. The police took that matter up, and to their credit be it said. afLr con­~idcrabie inYcstigation, they w.0r0 able to sheet home the fact that the !-(lrl had been poison;;d. Onl.v n fcv{ da:vs ago it ·was stat'd in the pr<'s' that th<e father of the .u;irl had hef'n nrrr·s~cd aHd dw.r,"cd with poi~oning his O\Yil ~laughter. If it had. n~t b·..,en that <::nLlC jc,yeJlcr.v ;,i·a3 founa 1 Jt \\"ould not ],~,.., been possibk to identifY the rC'rnn.in~: l1ut. ha,:in~ identified the J'PDlaitF·, it r:tmP out nt tlH' lnqne-.:t snhse· rptl'Etlv.· \Yhiel1 wa~ h0ld at ~ewcn~tL· tlwt the fllthu· had purcha:-Pd su·yrhn]_,_!n frnn1 a certa_in chP1ni~t on the P,r~te~lCC' t.h<.:.t. h1; was gorng to po1son dog:3. fuat. case hcnvs how nccossarv it is for the .-\ttornc-v·Gt-:neral tn reta-in po\~:,er ordlr ~L coroiwr':':l inquPst \Yhcn suspiciou-:; a rise.

Mr. J\fULLAN (Flinda.,): 1 ".g-rcll that the Minic,tcr ~honld retain pc.w0r. He has the pmvcr no\Y, and. as a matter of fact) he has f'XCrciscd that power a] ready.

The ATTOHREY-GnrERAL: Power to order exhumation, but not to hold an inquiry,

Coronus Bill. [l OcTOBER.] Co:, u "s Bill. l31D

:\h. Ml'LL.\:'\: Without the permiesion of the :'.Iinister. no inquest can be held after f'ix n1onthf'; ai1d I ain "'ondering whether -it i8 advisable to li1nit it to six rnouth~. I ..::('e no reason for nnv limitation at all. There is no reason why an inquiry should not be held at any tirrte, cvrn in t\-..:elve rnonth:::, whPn tliPrc is a suspicion of foul play.

'The ATTOR:'\EY-GK0iERAL (Hon. X F. }lacgrortrty, ~South Brisbane): rl'he sugges­tion of tlte hon. member is not reasonable. If there are uny suspicious circ:Inlstancos sunounding the death, "ll'ely the people whu knovv of the sm:>picions circnn1stancos would ],ring them uncler the notice of the police 'vithiu ~ix lllOlJth~: If they did uot, it is cloubi.ful \\'lH.·ther their information \\-oulcl lw reliable.

:VIr. McLLAX: They might not discoYer it before.

Tlw ATTOH.XEY-GE:\'ERAL: I cannot understand ho\Y that can bo suggested. There \Yonld surely be some people connected with th'-' dead person who would know of the circumstancr,;. If it went past six n1onth-; and it was then brought under the notice of the Minister, he would immediately put it into the hands of the Crown Law Depart­ment or the police to make iuquiries; and then he would be in a position to say whether or uot the reports obtained were belated or whether they ought to be acted upon. There should be some restriction; but even if there is a restriction, any genuine case can be yentilated at a later date.

:vir. MULLAN (Flind,rs): Notwithstand­ing the Attomey-Gencral's implication that we ought. to know these things if there are suspicions circumstances, and that it should be found out in at least six months, \vc C'an casilv conceive of a case where a n1an goes out' into the bush prospecting. He might not return for twelve months, and might not be heard of for that time; and then eomething might come to light which showed that he had been the victim of foul play. \Vhy should it be necessary under circumstances such as those for the l\1inister to come into the pict.urP and instruct the JlOlice to rr,ake an inquiry instead of letting it, go to an inquest, if neC'essary, withont obtaining; the sanction of the Minister?

~4.. GOVER:-.J?!IENT ~lE:\TBER: \Vhat is. your objection to the clause?

Mr. ::VIULLA::\: The law should work "utomatically. and it can work automatically if this clause is not inserted.

:\fr. HAI\'LO::\f (lllwca): I \\ould like :wme inforro:ttion from the Minister as to y,·hat "' ould happen in the case of a person w-ho <lisap]Warocl and no body was found, and there were rca-onable ,..rounds for presuming that he had boon done away with or \\'as <l0ad. Ta I{(\ for instanc.", the l'L'Ccnt drmYn­ing- fatalit:;- in tho Bay in connection wit.h \Vhich no hodv has hcen discovered. Is i;·. possible unch;r thi. Bill to hold an inCJniry without finding the bodies? Then thc1·e arce cases of cli,appea1·ance of people at sea, 'tnd no body being found. They might lHl\-e been pu"hed overboard or might haYO fallen over­board. Looking clown the paragraphs iu this clause, it do0.;-:; not scrn1 to n1o that any pro vi· inn is rnadc for an jnquir:v into the r-1usc of cl• .._lth in ~~u('h t~scs, although \Ye 1nay he quite sure the pcroon is dead, whether eke to natural cta!S•-s or by 'oul means.

The ATTOR:\EY-GE;:-.;ERAL (Hon. K. F. ~Iacgroart~·. 5'out!t Brisbonc): In regard to the caso of a nuln falling overboard or being Jlllshcd OYerboard, .md the body never being ~een again, no ont:> can ever prove that he is dead. Such fl. case would not be covered bv the Bill. These inquiries can only be held in cases when !here is no doubt as to clc;ath hasing aetnally taken place.

Mr. H.I"LOX: \\'hat about somem1e ~eoing him go oyerboorcl. but the body is not fouLd ·~

Tlw ATTOH:'\EY-UE:'\EHAL: He may Hut bn d0acl C'Yf'lt then. Take the case Of a rrran going ont lnto the bush and dying. llis boclv or l:i< remains will be found some tirne. a{Jd then there could be an inquiry within ~ix n1onth~ of the finding of the bodv. Bnt in the l'a'c of a man who dis­app.eurf; frorn a boat. and his body is not found, and nothing more is seen or heard of hin1, you cannot. rn·oye his. death.

:\Ir. liA:iLOX: Then cYen if vou had an idea that he wa~ pushed ovel·board you could not hoJd nu inquiry?

The ATTOH:\EY-GENERAL: The hon. member will see the difficulty-you cannot prove the death. You r'ln only assnme it, o1· ,.av that it looks like it. You cannot hold mi' inquiry unless a pe1·~on is knO\Yil to have died.

}fr. H\XLOX: The law provides for pre­'tuning a man's cleat.h. becat'"r it distributes his property.

The ATTOH.:\'EY-UENERAL: Under cer­tain circurnstances., as after a certain period. Tf a person is not h<'ard of for seven years, his death may be prc,umecl; but you. cannot prhume his d(ath at all under this Bill, and I do not think there could be any inquiry under tlw circumstances the hon. n1ern ber tncntioned.

:VIr. W. FORGA:'\ SMITH (J.lackuy): I am inclined to cli>'agree with the :Minister's amr·ndment. The clause sets out clearly that the coroner ha.e jurisdiction in 'certa~n cases "' set out in paragraphs (a) to (t). Then the Minister propo,es to provide that uo inquest shall he held after six months from the date of death or after six months from the finding of the dead bod0·, unlt•o& i he Minister otlwrwis" orders. It seems to 1ne that. in a giYen cs-.;e thPrP tnight be sus­pit.ious circnnl~~tanc<=''· af' to a death which would justif:;· an inye•·tigation, but those circ·urr1st.·~nc~:-< n1i1_: ht not appear until after the lapse of six months. The justification for holding an ill(jlH'st is !he necessity for r.•tahlishing the cause t.f de11th with a view to tal:ing prorccdings if a.ny eri1ninal act has accPld·at0d t.hc dea.th-in other y;ords. if >hr pCl'Wn hlP, not died from nrrtunl <·au~es. Of rour e. every death is due to nn.tun:tl cau''-"S in onf' sen~e. If a man gets knockC'rl on the h"o.cl. it is natural that ho shonld di<'. provided t.he blow is scvero c•nongh; but we u~0 the t0rn1 ''natural eausc;-;" in this coJuwction in a scn~e which i~ \Vell nndorstood. point I -would like-tlw 'd:inister to is the necessity for lJOlding nn ir~quir.: at. onro period and \lot ut anodF:r. .A coroner ma.y ho1d an inqtur:. at. anv timr- Ull t.o .ix rnonths fron1 th\- death, hut thcrC'aft r no jnq_uiry may be held nnh _s the :\iinjsi-Pt intr~rv,~n,·s. In the first plarc, iiu~ iniii(~tivc is 'vith the ('Oroncr, but hu loses that initiafivP uftrr the period of six n1onths has c~lapscd. Circumstances have frequently occurred in c0nnection with d<caths

Jiir. Smith.]

1320 Coroners Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Coroners Bill.

where there have bePn no suspicious circunl­stance, until evidence has come to light at a later date-perhaps later than six months from the death. If this amendment is carried, the suspicious eircumstanccs must come to the rootice of tho Minister, and ho will be the arbit r to decide whether an inqnir. shall be hold 01· not-that is, if eix months have elapsed since the death. I do not sec why tho 31illistor s.hould possess that authority. Public opinion is in favour of it not c~cpcnding on the ·will of any l\'linistcr whether an in 111iry shall be held or not. Tlu: t is the whole case fm· tho amending Bill. The genPral public have the feelinr,· th:1t, \Yhero a death takes place under .:>us­piciou circnrn~tancc.~ or ·where a person dies a violent death be:'aU~3 of his o\vn act or th,, act of an i·1quiry should bo held bv a coroner anv inlcrvclltion bv Lht• :\Iini::icr. i-, the "clefin1te viO"J hel~l hy the public. does the Minister desire thi;;, d1f.cTct1onary power'? I{e n1ight decid(' to hold an inquir.-

1 01~ hJ n1ight dccido not

!o hold an in(juir.v. Hi,; deci,ion not to hold an inquirv rnight be a e.:ood enongb dt>ci'"ion, but it rnigl1t give rise to diiH­cnities and arous" mspicion in the public mind. If the matter of an inquiry is to be left. to the coroner at all, it should be lreft. to hin1 in all ca::.es.

The .c\1'TORNEY~GE:O:ER\L: For all time?

Mr. W. FORGAN SMITH: No, not for all time. I am not suggesting for all c'ternit.v. \V" really cannot undentand what " all tin1e " n1cans.

The ATTOl'~fEY~GENERAL: I have no desire to take anything out of the hands of the coroner. I am prepared to make the period t•.Yclvc rnonths.

Mr. W. FORGA)J S:\HTIT : The Minister rnu::-t kno\V that t1wrc• have bt:en cases where suspicions -ci·r~._ urnsiances ha.....-e cmno to light <Jftcr a greater intery.-<} than six months.

The ATTOR:\'EY~GENEE '\.L (Hon. N. F. J\Iacgroarty, South Hr ·slwne): I beg to move the following amendment:-

" On lines 2 and 3 of the anwndment omit the words-

' six rnonths '

"\vhcro thPy hvice occur, and insert in lieu thereof the word.,-

• t\vch'e n1onths.' "

The subclauso will then read--

'· It shall be tho dutv of every coroner to inquire into thr nta~1n0r and cause of flr(Y death occurring und0r the circunl­;:;tqn._ es as set forth in subsp,,:tion ono of this section in the district. fo1· >vhich he is coroner by Yirtue of this Act.

'· Provided that no inqu<'st ,hall be held ahcr the expiration of twelve months from the cla!c of dr ath, or after the expiration of hvchr:: rnontlB fron1 tlw date of the iindinr: of the dt:ad body. unless tho l\linJ:,-t,•r othen\·isc orders."

Atncndn1cnt agreed to.

Amendment (J1r. J!'it[JrOrtrty). as anwnded, agreed to.

Th,, ATTOIC\F:Y-GE:'\ERAL (.E-Ion. N. F. l\Tacgroarty. Sn1rth Jlri.,lmnc): I beg to ·~1ovc the fol!o,:·ing nmcndment :--

'· On page 3, aftPr lino 51. and after the words prc1·ioLBly added to sub~

[Jfr. Smith.

claus•' (2). insert the following new sub­clauPe (3) :-

' (3.) Subject to this Act a medical practitioner shall not, unless with the consent of the coroner, give a medical certificut'> as to the cause of death in respect of any death "\vhich occur;:; undc·r tho -circtnnstancc·, referred to in paragraph' (a), (b) (c), (c), or (j) of subsPction one.

'..:::\nv n1cdical practilionor oiiencling against the provi~·ions of this sub­'oction shrJl be lia 1.>le to a ll' nalty not cxccoding two hundr0d pounds, to be.

·n' errd in a \Yay b~.' COill-

nudcr the Act~.' "

I think it i' desirable that a medico1l man should not giyc a. rcrtificaLP of deuth in th?~o C'ircutnst8.w ' ... :s nn!Pi'-:3 \Yith U!c consent of tlw coroner.

:\Ir. \Y. FORGH\ Smnr: Tln amendment i;; dPsig1wcl to deal particularly with the Cll'­cumctances outlined in clause 5 (1) (c).

The XTTOR:'\EY-UEl\ER"\L: The new ::nhdauf'c will covf'r cases conting within the ,]r f'mition of lJangtaph (c).

:Hr. H.\NLO:\: Is '' any instit<1tion" referred to in pnn•graph (i) co\ered l>y thac. p;na­graph"

The ATTOR:'\EY~GE:'-IERAL: y, s. :VIr. liANLON: \Yill it cm-er an ordinary

lJJatPL'tlit,v hospital'?

The ATTOR:'\EY·GE);EEAL: Yt~.

. J\Ir. Il\NLO:\: Parag:·aph (r:) refers to '\_ar: 1;1qu{·:-:t In pursuance ot thrs 1-\ct 01· !l'ny ot~.ler .Act." Is there any other Ac1

• vnoer _whrch an inquiry can be held undo~ ~uch ClfCl..:rn­

stancc:-' ·~

The "\TTOR:\'EY~GE::"iERAL: Yes, the ln.;;anih- .Act.

31r. llANLON : Don't yoa think that pro· Yision should be made in paragraph (i) for deatll~ occurring in Inatendt:; p_ospitals '(

The ATTOR:'\EY~GE"\EHAL: don't think so.

:\h. HANLO:\: ,\ goocl deal of suspicion i:-; ati aclted to deaths under certain circun1~ 8taucc-;:

J\Ir. :\llLLA:\: It is a precautionary mea~ sure.

::\Ir. H.\NLO:\ : It is a protection to medical 1 q actit1onor:;, and, unfortunately, wo know that ell medical practitioners arc not of the highc,.t poesiblc standard.

The ATTORNEY~GE:'>fERAL: Such an institution would be controlled by the (loctor in charge.

1\Ir. }LIXLON: That is all the more reason "hv thosP words should be in·.'luded in para­graph (i). The medic aJ practitioner. would be running the instrtut10n :u,d gettmg the profits from it. Ail medical practitioners ere not of the standarJ \YC would hke them tc be.

The ATTOR:'\EY~GE:'\ER.U,: If a patient i in an institution attended bv a medical prrretilioncr nnd die~,, that n1edical practi· tioner >rould gi.-e the Cl'l'tif.cate of death. be-e tnso he wm:lld be ln actual attendance on !he patie'lt.

1\lr. HI:.:LO:\: That nH'<lllS that any harJH is gi.-en a free bill to trade in tha·t dLe~~ tion.

Coroners Bill. [l OcTOBEH.] Coroners Bill 1321

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: To whom arc you alluding?

Mr. HA"'LON: \Ye know that cases of abortion practised by medical practitioners are Ycry rare indeed, but there arc certain l'mctitioners in the Cornmomvealth of a very low sbmdard \vho do pra.ctise such acts.

The CHc\IRMA"': Order ! Hon. member.> Inust calT\' on this ·debate ln a regular JP<umct·. At the present time it is confined iu n dialogue Lctween the J\Iinister and the uon. Jncrnbcr for Ithaca.

::\lr. HA:'\LON (!th,lca): SiHce the J\lini-.ter clairn:-> 1-~1nt nJatc'rnity hospitals "·ould br~ iEcJudcd a~ in-.titutions in paragraph (i), he :-:houlcl include paragraph (i) in his amend~ 1nent, IYhieh lin1its the powf'r of a 1ncdical practitlnr::cr to issue a certificate of de.ath. EvidentlY the :\Iinister believes there shonld b·J some '!imitation to the power of a medical practitioner giving a certificate in certain

othr·nvi·,c he v:onld not haYc proposed amendment. Some ca,es of death,

P:-.fW·cially those resulting frrnn pretuaturc childbirth or the practic~ of obortion, excitP the g-ravest suspicion. It is very difficult fot tlw pol1cc- to secure cvidPnce enabling then; to obtain a conYiction in ,,uch cases. The 11ini~tcr is awaro of such difficulties. !t is common knowl0dg-" that certain medical practitioHcr-> do practise abortion. In fact, 1 hey hasc no other means o£ inco1ne, for they arc people who have fallen right below

standards of the profeS>ion. If power now g-rant0d to a rnedical practition('r to

i~:-;up a ce1 tificatc in connection with a c1eath occurring in a private maternity home as the possible result of an illegal operation, a busc might creep in. That is the most dangerou~ class of case in which you could allow the medical officer attending the patient to i"ue a certificate

[5.30 p.m.] \Yhat the Minister has said in justification

of the amendment makes it yitally necessary h amend paragraph (i) to cover .a private lying-in hospital. There are seYeral of these institutions around Brisbane in which a good deal of trouble has been caused. The po1ice 'md the Attorney-General kwnv of them, and kno',\' that illegal operations are perlormed, and that there is a difficulty in securing- a conviction. If the medical officer who allies hmsrlf with a home of that kind is allowed to give a certificate. why provent a medical inan of ~ood standing giving a certificat~ i11 rcganl to the death of h1s patients if a medical 1nan, under the circumstances I have outlincrL is Pntitled to g-ive a certificate? \VheH the Minister says that a private l:·ing--in hospital is covered in that. paragraph h0 the \\'Ord " institution," it might be well for his amendment to apply to that para­vraph.

Tlw ATTORXEY-GE:'\ERAL \Hon. N. F. l'IIacg-roarty, South JJrisbanr): I cannot accept the hon. member's suggestion offhand. Tho l:on. n1cmbcr refers to cases of abortion; 1mt d0aths in that event would come under the category of deaths under unu.:Jual circum~

nnd would be subjet·t to an inquiry. a. lot is heard of these cases, anrl

procN~ding~ have been taken in nun1m'ous installC('"· I 'rould tnuch sooner give the -:ngg-c~_.tion n10r1J rr1ature thought, when it might be a matter for amendment at a lah·t· stag-e.

Amenrlment (Jlr. Jlaeqroarty) agreed to.

Clause 5, as amended, agreed to. Clauses 6 to 10, both inclusiYe, agreed to. Clause 11-" Post-mortem examination mCP/

be ordered and bodies exhumed"- ·

;',Ir. l\IULLAN (l<'lind' rs): The Attorney­General might state why he is not rdaining the posver we hn.vo at presonL in connection

1th inquest~. This clause roads-•· The I\lin]::,ter or a coroner mav in

his di~crction order a post~rnoi:tern t_:xanlination of any deceased person for tho purpose of an inquc1St, and the l\Iinistcr rnay ordt r the body of any deceased person to be exhumed, and for that purpose the coroner may with such as;;istants as he 1nay require,' enter nnd Lreak open any ground, ce1netcry, or place for the purpose aforesaid.''

rndcr the prc, 'nt Act the coroner has the powu to order exhumation 'The Minister js distinctly litniting the power no\v, as the Bill provides that a body cannot be exhumed without the pr,·mission of the Minister. I ':ould like to know from the ::\Iinister why In. i' restricting the power under this BilL

The ATTOR:'\EY-GENERAL (Hon. N. F. }lacgroarty, So1tlh !Jrisbanr): As I explained on the second reading, in spite of provision in the InCJ.nest of DeGths Act whereby a coroner has power to exhume, he cannot Pxhumc without authority from the Home Secretary under the Cemetery Act. I think it advi•mb!e tlutt the coronn should have to apply to the Minister or his department nnd get hio authority also. The fact that ihe IIon1e Secretary has to g1ve permission ut the present time shows that it is rather a ~crious thing to exhluno; and, if the coroner thinks it nece"ary to exhume a body, the matter will be submitted to his Minister, \\ho will ha1·e the advice of the Crown Law Department to say whether or not it should br done. It is really better to have the opinion of two heads. That is the real reason. Section 38 of the Cemetery Act reads-

,, It shall not be lawful to remoye any body or the r0mains of any body which 1na:y have been interred in an;· cemetery '"ithout license under the hand of the Homo Secretary for the time being and ''ith such precautions as the Governor in Council may prescribe as the condition of ~neh license."

It~ i,: a good idea that there should be two opinions on the matter before a body may bo exhumed. The coroner may not be a legal man, and may not be entirely seized of the importance of the matter, and it may be rrrlvic 1ble to put the matter before the Crown Lcw Office nnd have the decision rnado there.

Clause 11 ag-reed to. Clause 12--" JI cdical testimony to be take:>

·/!en pructicnble "-agreed to. Clause 13-" Furtlt(.l' po . .._•ers of coroners"--

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Hon. N. F. Macc.:roarty, South !Jrisbane): I beg to move the following amendment:-

"On page 5, lino 38, omit the words­' Prm·idcd that '

and in:-;crt-'13).' "

I want to mako that a new subsection. Am.enchnent agreed to.

Hon. N. F'. Macgroarty.]

132:2 Coroners Bill. [ASSEl\IBLY.] C'oroners Bill.

The ATTORNEY-GE:'\ERAL (Hon. N. F. Macgroarty, So?tth Brislw•1r) I beg to n•ovc the following amendment:-

" On pac-e 5. after line 42, insert tho following proYiso:-

' ProvidGd that if the coroner shall consider any person whether sub­pcenaed as a witnet.s or not has anv particular intcic.~t in the proceeding~. or if the coro1wr shall oonsidcr the condu-ct or act of anY such person was in any material ''ay rcleYant to the wbjcct-matter of thP inquest. he may permit such per,on to be present in such romn or plare: and in such case such person shall be entitled to be represented by counsel m· solicitor and to 0xan1ino and cross-cxarnine v ... it­nessos in relation to tho 'mbject­matter of such inquest.' .,

That prm-iso is necessarc· in the interests of justice. First. the person concerned should b" represented if there is any suspicion con­cerning anyone who is intere"tcd in the case, as, unless he is there or is represented by counsel, it .may create a suspicion with !~·egard to an innocent por.-;on.

Amendment agreed to.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Hon. ~- F. Macgroarty, South Brisbane): I b<'g to move the following formal amendm!'nt-

" On page 5, line 43, omit the words-·­' Provided novcrthclces that'

with a view to inserting-' (4)'"

That is to make another sub~lause.

Amendment agreed to.

The ATTORNEY-GEXERAL (Hon. X F. .Macgroarty, S'u?tth Brisbane) : I beg to move the following amendment :-

" On page 5, line 45, omit the \vords-­' such room or place'

>tnd insert in lieu thereof the words-' the room or place in 'vhich the coroner is conducting the inquest.' "

That is to make the matter more definite. Amendment agreed to.

Mr. HANLON (lthaca.): I beg· to move the following amendment:-

" On page 5, aftc1· line 48, inr;ert the following further proviso~

'Provided further that the ~oroner shall not under the provisions of this subs-~ction exclude representatives of nc\-,·spa.pcrs fron1 snrh roon1 or place; but the coroner shall in any case have power '"nd authority to maim an order forbidding th0 publication of an,v report or ac( onnt of the evideuco, or ,,thcr pro~"edings therein, either as to the who!G or portion thereof, and the breach of any such order, or any col­Ol!l'H blo or attempted en si on thereof. sha 11 be an off once under this Act. and shall render the offender liable on convictiJn to a penalt~; not exceeding two hundred paunch, to be recovered in a un1mary l\-ay by con1pla.int under the Justice;;:; -~rts.'"

I\!Iy rctson for proposing tb~· amcndnle-nt is 1 hat the ptc·reclinrg· paragraph gives the ('Oroncr po1vcr to 0xclndc a.nv nudience from the court during the hearing of certain evi­dence. I admit that it is a very desirable power to have; but, at the same time, it is

[Hon. N. F. Macgroarty.

ncc:0ssary that tb: p0oplf' ~houlJ lwYt' ~Olllf­guarantee that- C>Ycrything is conducted :as it ought ro be. The press arc looked upon as being the t;·nanlians of the rjghts of t.hn rlllblic. and no good purpose can be ~en-ed h:-- cxrludin?: tlwm as the public rcprescnta­ti,·cs. Their [ll'CSdlCC would make it apparent to the puhlir that 11othing 'vas being c-on­cealed frmn thPir l"('prcs0n1'at-iYe:.<.

:\lr. \V. FonGAX :Obrrrn : It ''onld preveut an~' Rnsplrion of Star Chainher CYidPHCe.

o\Ir. HAXLON: That is so. There would lJL' uo pO\H'r to prohibit the attendance of the p1·ess. but thcr0 would be power to p1ohibit tho publication of cYidence on thE' grounds of rnora1ity, which is the reason gin!n by th<' :\·iini:o-.ter for the provi~o ah·cady appearing 111 the clause.

The ATTORXEY-GrxERIL: I accept tho an1r-ncln1C11t.

Amcndn1011t ::urrced to.

The ATTORXEY-GK\'ERAL (lion. X. F. I\..[argroartv, :•:outh JJrisUanc): I beg to 1110\T·

dlC' following· nmc>nchncnt :-"On page 5, line 49. omit-­

' (3)' ancl insert~-

' (5).'" \tncndn1cnt agreed to.

( 1 lause 13, af' an1r-nded, agreed to.

Clauses 14 and 15 agreed to. Clause 16-" H'itncsses' e.rpensrs''~

Mr. HANLO::--J (Jthacrt): Since I have been in Parliament I have frequently mentioned" j he necessity of encouraging people to attend inquiries. It is very common to hear people in the vicinitv of any accident or other nouble in the streets give the advice to other people, "Don't see anything." for the simple reason that people arc called upon to attend inquiries and give evidence without receiving compensation for the time they lose. I believe that adequat!' compensation should be given. The amount of the expenses is not specified in this clal!se; but I notice that recently the fees of jurors wore reduced by the Crown. and that gives me reason to believe that the expens0s of witnesses may be reduced also. It' is a very dangerous thing not to compensate persons who may desire to assist a court or give cvi·dence in the public interests, whether in a police court or at an inquiry or elsewhere. They should not be penalised because they turn up to do their duty, and adequate expenses should be , llo1Yed. There has ]wen diflicultv at times in sccnrin[~ 1vitnc:: .. :;cs' expense·"-.;, and I hope that the _\ttorncv-General will take action, when framing the regulations, to provide that anybody a+;,,nding· an inquiry will get ample compensation. that he will not be out of 11ockct. 8nc1 that he "'iH haT.r- no diffi-eulh· in collf'ding l1is expenses. . V

The ATTORXEY-GEKERAL: I will g·ive con­sid<'r-.tion to the matter ,dlell the regula.tious a re being frarncd.

C'lau 16 agreed to. Clau.;;p 17-" Polf•rr of cornnrr nil· rle/!1 'lt

of lil1'!m·:nt of /iw"~asrcod to.

Mr. ~.1ULLA?\ (F''nd,rs): I brg to move the following new clause to follow clause 17:-

" 18. (1) It shall be lawful for any coroner by whom an inquest of death shall be hCld to cause to be apprehended

Coroners Bill. [l OcTOBLn.] Coroners Bill.

and to cornmit for trial any pt i::.on sus­pected or accused of having caused such c.cath by wilful murder or murder or n1anslaughter, as the case n1a.y be:

" Provided that whenever it can be .ione the evidence shall be given and all _!n·ocecdings incidental to c01nrnitment for trial shall be taken in the presence of tho accused.

" (2) It slHlll be lawful for any corm1cr by whm11 an inquest into the ealr<C and origin of any fire shall bn h, ltl to t d.usc to bo apprehended and to u,mmit for trial any person suspcch1 d or ac('nsC'd of having ,,i]fully set on lirP the prop<'rt:· in rcspr•ct of which fire the iLqucst has been hc·ld:

"Provided that 1vhcneH'l' it c"n be done the evidence shall be giv0n and all proceedings incidental to connnitrncnt for t.rial shall be taken in th- prcscnc·e of the accused.

" (3) For the purpose vf dl'ectivd:v ('arrying out the provision.;; of this sC'c­tion, the proyisions of Parts IV. aud V. of the Justices Acts shall. ::1utatis mutandis, extend and apply, and further. to the intent that where any powers. authorities, and jurisdiction ar•"' by vir­tue of such provisions imposed and Yestctl in justices, such powers, authorities, and jurisdiction are by virtue of this Act he1·eby imposed and Yested m the• coroner.''

The new clause provides that the coroner can commit for h'ial after conducting au inquest into a, death or an in'luiry into a fire. The Attorney-General promised to give consideration to this matter. and I hope that hC' is now in a position to indicate that he will accept this new clause. \VC' have preced0nts for action in this direction. " The Coroners Act of 1912" in operation in New South \V ales and " The Coroners Ad. of 1928" in operation in ·victoria both give the coroner pov.~Pr to cornn1it; and I can see no reason why the Minister or anyone else can take exception to that por·cr b·-'ing cmbodiC'd in this Bill.

I haYc befor" n1c a report of a Ycr:v inilucntial Select Committee, <·onsisting of twelve or fourteen rnernbcrs of the Britil'h 1Iouse of Comrnons, including the Attorney­General for Ireland. which inouircd imo 1natb'l'S set out in a Coroners BiB. Strange to "1Y. ono of the matters upon whid1 it was in!'itrncted to in;:.uire was the granting of po,Y(·z· to a c nroner to connnit. ThE' report etatcs-

" ~~{our colnlnittce considt'r that the double investigation which noy, takes place before thr coroner and the rnagi8-trntes in ( -::scs \\·hero a ncrson is accused of a crime in relation to a dc1th upon which an jnqriOst has been l1eld is a cause of needless expense a11d inconYcni­c ll('('; and t.hPy are o£ opinion tlwt though it may not bo feasible to avoicl ii in ail cases, :vet that if a syst0n1 of (•HicicT .... , f'alaricd lPgal cororcrs were '"tablishcrl throughout the country it tni'~:ht he po<:<s1ble to confer upon them the of a stip~ndic-u~· lTI::tf!istratc. :1nd obviab; thn evils referred to. •ro carey this out, it wonJd no doubt l'c rcqui· ite to consolidate tho area'' of lDJ.1lY coroners' districts.''

That report is a very old report-it is dated lOth July, 1879; nevertheless, it is a . :oluablo report. I do not suggeot that the Minist»r

'hould canv out the latter part of the recom­"'~mlation 'except that portion relating to ~tipendiar;.r magistratt.:s. There is no reason why he should not accept the amendment. \Ye arc now going through yery parlous times. when everybody is preaching economy; and here is the opportunity for the l\1inister to saYe an enor1nous amount of expenditure both to the department and to litigants. The persons concerned will haYc to attend onlv one court instead of two; and it must be. borne in mind that the person vitall:v concerned in an inquiry or inquest is involved in heavy expense, par­ticalady if he is represented by counsel both in the coroner's court and in the police conrt. In addition, departmental officers have to carry out sin1ilar ,\·ark in the {·orouf'r's court and in the police court. I certninlv think the i\iinistPr yyould save his dep~;rtn1ent an enorrnous arnount o£ expPndi­ture if he were to accept the amendment

The· ATTOR.'>JEY-GEXERAL (Hon. N. F. :\lacvroartv. Snuth Brisbrtne): :t-.;-otwith­~randincr ~the po\n'r contained in The ln(jucot~ of Death Act, there is no record in th<• Deprtrtrnent of Justiee of the coroner <·Yl'l' havino· con1rnitted a pe·rson for triaL lt is right ~nd proper that no such provision uncln those circumstances shoul-d be pro­vi,Jecl in this Bill. The hon. member fo1· Flin,krs refNrcd to a recommendation made hv et Sdcct Committee of tlw House of Corn­r;wns. but he must recognise that it is not f<•asib!c in all cases to adopt that recom· mendation in this State.

:\[ r. :VlGLLAli: That is so. The ATTORNEY-GJ<~.'>JERAL: A numb01·

of coroner, who may be police magistrate~ would b0 reasonablv qualifi{'d to commit, but th,•re will Le some. coront'rs who will not be poliec magistrates. and one rule cannot be made to apply to them and another to police 1nagistratt:s. · Unifo·rn1 po\Yers must be pro­vided. The question of expense does not <•lltt•r the matter. notwithstanding that the hou. member said that I should consider cconmn v in thcst..' times. Every man has a right. t<; receive a fair and nroper trial. It mu·t hP remembered that all kinds of hear­"". evidence which would not be admitted if a "man ·.:·ere put on his trial is submitted at an inquest. He is then protected from such <'vid<'ncc. It must also be remembered that t llf'l'C is no rharge made against anyone at. "" inques': of death. It might be a little tedious to h0ar all the evidence a second time but in the first instance it is submitted to tl~e proper authorit~y' \vbose business it is to consider it carcfullv and see if a charge can be laid against 'any person. In the intPrc-t;.; of justice that is ll{.'Cessary. I can­not 1hcl'cforo accept the an1endnu::n:J.

:Ylr. ::VTGLLAX (Fiinders): I cannot lwlie·:c that it is beYond the resources of the .AttornPv-Gcncral Or the officers of his dcoartn1cnt to devise some method by which 1 his can be done, and done in strict con­fnnnit-: ·with the achnini:.;tration of huticr~ lt ls ·clon0 in N('w South \Val{~S and \lic­loria. rtl<cl sul'clv the hon. gt?ntlmnan \Yill not "-~-· that thin~s Cannot bo done ac: well in this Si ::,tn aR in tho~o States !

The ATTOHXEY-GEXERAL: \Vonld you havo n jn~tic: of the peace conl!nltting a rnan for tri.d '!

:'fr. :MULLA='J: Th·, fact must not be ovcr­lookecl that the Attorncv-General has amended the Bill to prc·.'ont. men. pl·esHm­ab1y justices of the pcac~J from b-.:con:.i ng

;"ifr. Jfullan.]

13~4 Ooron~rs n;u. [ASSEMBLY.] Coroners Bill.

coroners nnlcss they have special qualifica­t7olis.

r7 p.m.] The chief objection of the Attorney-General

t.o thi;; power is that some JUStice of the ucace mav exercise jurisdicticn; but I do not ;n~1po~e that n1ore than 5 _per cont. ?f ,t.ho <·ase,; ;;ould ever be ddermmed by a ]Usuco of the peace} bccau><e it is almost certain that 95 per c(•nt. of the cases would bo dealt ;vith bv a police magistrate. Further, the iusticcs' of the peace who would be cailed ~11on nt rare inter-n:th to deal with these.

would be specially selected men, and policP r1agistratc _npo~1 \YflO~l t~H~ oblig·a­

tion i" placed of nom1natn1~ a JUstice of th_P pc :Le-.. io P' dorn1 _the dubc:~ of coroner IS

_, 0 ~ likcl.; to nomtnate an•· but lt capabl" man.

Tht. _._-\Il'ORXEY-GEXER\L: :\o justicn of the r .tee ;youlcl be capable in any such case.

'\fr. :\lULLAX: The Minist'r must not Jooc sig·ht of the fact that. justices of the lh?nce connni8o a large scct1o11 of the conl­;nunitv, so. that his choice of selection is not rc,tricted. But, en'n if the hem. gentleman has am· fear in the matter, he could still ,,]imina'tc the justice of the peace and accept tnv ar.L"e-ndn1ent ·which ·\Yould confer invnlu­nl;lo bc,ncftt on 'tho con1munit~"··

The ATTORXEY-GEKERAL: I would not give that pO\YCl' to a ch'rk of petty se2sions.

)1r. :HULLA:'\ : :VIost of the clerks of pctt.v sessions are potential polic'.~ Inagis­trate;,: a~ a 1n 1tter of fact, a large nun1ber (:f thcn1 ha Ye pa .sed the n1agis-Lcrial ex:anlina­tion, although they arc not classified a.s police Inaglstrates.

The ATTORXEY-GEKER'L: It all depends on the nlhnne of the \York Lhat he deals with and th0 pxpc1·lenee that, ha gets in the town in ,,-hich h<:' is stationed.

:\h. Jl.fCLLA"": Clerks of petty sessiOns arc giYt>ll yery grrat poivc~·s-po"\vers that are much more important than any that '' ould be imposed under this measure. I aclmit the difficultv of convincing a man agaimt his will; bi'.t I can only stress that the Attorney-General is losing one of the lwst chances ho has had this se,,sion and is likelv to hwe for a considerable time of

, rodu: ing the costs of his department. Cndoubtedly th'· amendment would aave the Dt•partmcnt of J ustico an enormous sum of monev, and, what is more important. would be of inP,timable benefit to prospective iiti­;.cants. After all, none of us know when wo ma.v be involved in cases which would put tl-' to great C'X}Wnse; and there is no reason why theec should be a duplication of sen-ice, by ha,~iPg both a. coronia! inquiry and a magisterial inquiry.

I am Yerv sonv that the Minister IS not in " rcawn.o.ble f;·ame of mind. He should vin' this mattcl' further consideration b~~L1i.!'f' 1t offers a substantial gesture of logal rcforn1. I-I0re -is an opportunity of bringing about effectiYe legal reforn1, and I must confPss that the 'Minister has so far to.!led to gi;-c the Committee any substantial reason ;;-hv the amendment should not be• ,tee •'ptecl. ·

The ATTORXEY-GE~ERAL (Hon. N. F Mncgroarty, South Rrid>ane): I would remind the hon. member that in Xew South \Vales they hav-e what is known as a "grand

rMr. lli1tllan.

jurY." In ]';cw South \Yalo.s and Victoria, i hei·e is provision for a jury in both Acts. Under no circumstances would I .allow a justice of the peace who presides over a iribmLl such as this to ha v-c the power to commit a man for trial. I do not think it would he just. I would cot extend "hat po ,.·py C\'t='D to [! clerk of vctty Sl "3ions. It 1::; tinH~ enough for a clerk of petty session3 tn hr~Yc the povn~r to cornrnit a man for i :ri;:d \Yhcn he becornes a rnagi;trate. VVo hr: f: of petty sessions in the various 'c ns m:1y not hav-e the ability of ths d•~1·k nl pet~:· ocssions in J3rr· bane. Du~ing t1a~ fe1 VC'flJ'S the clerk of tJCttv SOE!Sl011:3

ll! llus frequently acted as" a nutgis i ratt~. Hu is a Ycry capable n1an, and has

knowlcdQ'o of the ln1Y. Ho is in a positioi1 The 1nain rca"on why I

not acr?pt the a1ncndrnent giving the coroner povv..: r to con1n1it is because of tho fact that a good deal of hear,·ay evidence can Ln given at t~u=-~e inqnC'~ts. It is dcsira.bk that hc'll'.say evidence f:honld be given at an inqu(_ ~t in order that the Crown law authori­tieS nHty have an opportu11ity of sifting rvcry bit of eYldcnce as to whether or not a person should ~d and hi~ trial. 1\nothcr rrason for r.ot acC'epting tlw an1cndnwnt i~ becicuso of the fact that at an inquest o' d0ath or fir<' nobody is charged with ;1nything-. It is a sparcblng jnquiry to set~ if anvbocly ourrht to b0 f'harged. and. '\hen the C·oronc~· con1f'S to a conclusion, hl~ c,iJl n•commc>nd that m eh a thing be done .. Then it is for the Crown law authoriti0s h, sn;· \Yhti-lwr or not that person should f.tand bis triaL The COl'Ol1Ci' will advise of a n.v ~n.:plcions circuJn~tan~cs surrounding an inqnir.\· and glYe hi~ opinion. and an entircl.Y independent officer in the Crown Law Office will eift the whole thing over a g-ain, and will decid" ;;-het her or not thr' person eoncr:nwd should stand his triai as a result of the ev-idence. In that way the pl?1 >On cow:erned will ha Ye co1nplcte ju'3ticc do1;o to him. I regret that I cannot accept t ho amondm01tL because I feel that the liberty of the subj0ct will b0 better proservo;i undn· the Biil as it stands.

:VIr. :\1ULLA:\' (Plindc·r.<): I am sorry tht' Attornov-Gcn<:'ral will not accc·pt the amond­nwnt. He states that nobody is charged "ith a.ny offence, and that is true: but, as tlw inquiry prcc0ed~ and there ~~ evidence pointing un1ni:-takabiy to tho guilt of son11..• individual, >vhy should the coroner not have the right to commit? \VhY shonld th<' com­munity be put to the cost of two trials·: If there was aw.· que ,tion of making the adrn1nisLrr~ tion lTIOl'O c:xp{'nsiYe it \rend cl 111-. differnnt, but th.,,re is not.

'l'h<' ATTORNEY-Gn:~RAL: You ne1·er in.3truct;d the coronPr to co1nn1it 'vhen YOU wc•re in offic('. \Vh,v· did you not? ·

1\Ir. :HULLAN: If I had been bringing in ~!·· h a con1preh0n~iYe Act as thE' 1-\ttorne:v­UerH'rul prorniscd to introduco, I certainly •vould haYo prov-idC'd for it. The pro­cedure wa laid do·wn in the old Act, undf'r which the •:hole of the papers htcd to go to t ho Depa rtn1cnt of J usticc to be considered lr the :\-Iinis!cr or onP of his officers to ((ecide '~·h0thC' .. or not there IYas a t nse for " prosecution. That was an entirelv different rnatter. IIcr(' \Ye are de,1ling \vjth new lc•gi3lation. and, as I said previously, 'jf Xew South '\Valco and Victoria can find maPhinPry to do this, it should not be imprac­ti .1ble in Queensland, \Vhy should the

Sea Carriage of [l OcTOBER.] Goorl8 (S!tde) Bill. 1325

State of Queensland impose the obligation for having tv. o trirrls where one would do?

The .. .\TTOHNEY-GENI:R.\L: In New Somh \Y ales the coroner can find the verdict. I think that is absolutely ridiculous and unjust.

1\lr. }\IlJLLAN: That is a question of opin-ion. There are so1nc notable jurists in i\:cw South \Yalcs-Quocnsland has not got a monopoly of all the legal intelligence in the Commonwealth-and, if the people in New South \Yale· and Victoria can f1ncl ways of overcoming the difr1culty, surely we cm do so! I am not overlooking the difficulties, but \\'c should try to solYc them. ff, by the solution of these difficulties, wn can save tho country cnorrnous expense in litigation without afl'ecting tho administra­tion of justice in the least, there is no justi­f1cation for the Attorney-General taking the stand which he has done.

The ATTORXEY·GEXERAL: The position is that I do not see any clifllculty in our Act.

1\ir. MULLAN: The chief difficulty with the Attornc;,·-General is the justice of tho peace. I am pr0pared to meet him in regard to that, and the way to solve that is by providing that, except ''hero a justice of the peace presides as a coroner, there shaH be a power of committal. It only reqnires the alteration of a few words to overcome the difficulty, and the Bill will then be brought into conformitv with the Acts in Victoria and l'\ew South \Vale>, which have been working for years and in regard to which no complaints have been made. I appeal to the Attornev-Gcncral to submit to rea .. on for once, and accept the amendment.

Proposed new clause (Mr. Mullan) nega­tived.

Clauses 18 and 19 and the four schedules agreed to.

The House resumed. The CHA!Rl\!AX reported the Bill with

amendnH:>nts. Third n':tding of the Bill mr,de an Order

of the Day for Tuesday next.

SK\ CAHRL':.GF:: OF GOODS (STATE) BILL.

CJ:.DUTTEE.

(,1fr. R9beTts, East Toou:oo?• ... b.r, ; .. , the chair.)

Clauses 1, 2, and 3 agreed. to. Cl<luse 4-" Absolu"e 1PaTNlnty of S<''rl-

worthi 1 -~ not im2J!1:t'cl "-

Mr. PEASE (H'.•bctl); This clause rcr,ds-" Th~Tc shall not be impliDd in any

contract for i he r'lrriag"c of "''Jods bv soa, to \\hi eh this Act >ppllr-~ any absolute undcrt.·kin~,r by the carrjcr of the goG~Js to pro,ridc a sea\YOrthy ship."

A;; I noinl<'d o"t on the s. ·and rAacling of th0 Bill. an -ir~l~rn-!tional conference lu~s just t'akcn plu.ce o-..·cr,.:_cas at vdlich hvcni-y coun­tries were l'.']Jl'o .• cnted. Ono of the main decision:· of the convention y,·as designed to proYidc for the grcate.r seaworthiness of ships. It is vcrv strang:o tlwreforc, that this Go­vrrnine-nt~ shou1d-~be introducing a Bill abso­lutdv i;1 confliet with that decision. The eonvention pointed cut that it was necessary tn rai>r the standard of s::tfctv of merchant ohips throughout the world. As a matter of fact, the necessity for such improvement was one 0f the causes for calling the convention together. It was a convention designed to

pcrpcturcte the provisions as to the Plimsoll rmuk, and bring about a further clevelop­rw llt of the safct.y factor in merchant ship­ping. It \\'US decided that ships should havP " fixed load lir10, >vhich is safer than the Plimsoll mark, and that other safety measures \ 1, hi eh have Lcf)ll ngrcocl to by ihe nations of lhe world shou!d be adopted. In consequence we shall ho.Yc the spectacle· of ships coming l'O Queensland which have to conform with the nc\v arrangernont, ancl finding on their arrival a sectio11 of our law, ,, hich the Go­Ycrnrncnt ure new tryjng t0 put into effect, caying tlo.1t scaworthinc"S is not absolutely JlC;cessary. I cannot understand the Trea­surer putting such a clause in the Bill, because later on he does provide for tho soaworthi­!!CS', of ships. l\loroover, he told us on the s(•con-c! reading that there was in tlw N a viga­tion Act a provision covering this matter. What is the necessity for this clause? If the N ~ vigation Act proYides that ships shall be scaworth:: when trading to Queensland, why shoul cl the hon. gentleman wish t'o insert this clause in respect of intrastate trade? It seems to bo absolutely contrary to the other provisio':s of the measure, and opposed to the cX?stmg law. For the benefit of the Com­mittee, I shall read a short e.xtract from this report of the International Load Line Con­vention which I have already mentioned-

''. The Unit"d Kingdom delegates are srrt"fied that the new rules will raise the standard of safety of merchant ships throu&hout the world, and they draw attentiOn to two outstanding points­namely, t?e prote<;t'ion of deck openings and the mtrocluctwn for the first time on British ships of special load lines for tin1bGr ships and tunkors."

That committee cleoiclecl that it was imperative that the seaworthiness of all ve, ds should be guaranteed; but the Trea­surer 110\\. proposes to annul that very humane effort on the part of the committee. I~ appca,rs ~trango to mo that such a clause should. be embodied in a Bill. The Oppoci­tron ·r!l cortc.ml,y vote ag1inst it. and it is to be hoped that the Treasurer in view of the fa''" now submitted, ,.·ill s~~ tho nror of his v.ays. It has been found ne..:oss ·ry to guar, ntec the seaworthiness of ve ·"els in l'C' pcct of over'· ea shippjng, and that '.cocthy object chould not i'e whittled a·.n1y b.,., the Tre22ur~r in r{'Spect of i11tra~tut(~ f'!~ip;Jing. The con1n1it,tce to \1 hich I h:.vL~ rcf{'~'rod decided that its de;·:sion should hr~yo application to the \YCst co-st of .i\.u trallrt, to the -e1.st cost of Au~tr.:Ji ;~·;n frrct. tl:rou. hout the whole of the Brilish :Cmpirc. There n1ust have been SOl1lO sound and t:u-1· gihlo rcn ·on pron1 tin1 twc~ty coantr>s of the w~rlr1 to :_t;,-rrc ur:animously to tlL:; prn­:Jos J. The <'Ornmit,t ·· r0L.:Jucl• _l it' . . ' :1 Linrs 011ly }ut rJ'UC'Sd:->y \Y( _k, nnd ag:toed TIL't on:y tlwt Letter ccnrlitions should be impo;e(i ':nth regard to the 0C''l\vorihincss of yc ... ,0;s ,,ne! io extend the operation of the Plimsoll n1nrk. but it D ~reed that otlu'r conditions shnnld be impoSed. I hone tho rrr(' ~un'r ',vill St<} his ,, ay clear to orllit this clause.

1\Ir. BEDFORD (Warreyo): \Vhen di'\CU s­inq- tho ::-..Javigation Arts Arnendn1ent Bill a fevl days ago, the Tn'asurcr took great care to ~re that the safety of the crews and pas­F~n~~crs of b0ats was pro\ ;(led for: but bv this Bill he seeks to provide that' it shall not he implied or guaranteed that ship .. in which goods are conycyrd are seaworthy. Appnrently these ships which are to take

Mr. Bedford.]

l32il [ASSE:\IBLY.l Goods (Stau) Bill.

);oods to sra are to bo \Vorkod vvitnout cre\v:" and are not t'1 rarry pasf'ongers. If it is pro­po<od that tho ships which are not supposr·d to he seal\ orthy arc to be na,~ig·ated by v:irf'­Joss, then thoro may not be much troubl<' "hout it : but if, under on•· Dill. the safetY ()f passE'ngcrs ancl crews of ships is to b·l, guaranter'cl. what is tho reason for thi-. clause? This is the ro~tson: If a marin<' impector's c0rtiftcate is given in respect of a ship that i~ not eaworthy \Vhich is carr,Y­ing passengers, crews, and goods, and that ypg, .. c-1 i::; wrecked and bcco1ne~ a total lo~s. thPr0 shall be no claim against the ship­ov;ner for trading wjth a sltip that \Vas not ;;.c,a,,·orth,·. This is not onh~ an anomalv: lmt it ;; a very mean way of getting away from the g·eneral security of ships being sea­>mrtln·. 'I' hut is prm·idod for in one Bill introduced into Parliament this sosoion but it i~ unproYided for in connection with the :-., 1 carria~~·o of goods.

The TREASUHER (Hon. W. H. Dams. n·J;mwm) : In repl0• to the Deputy Leader of lhe Opposition and the hon. member for \Varrcgo, I y,j:-;h to point out that no s}Jip eau leave an, port until it receives a C< rtifl­catc of p,crrwOrthirH'SS. This rlausc is in ker>p­ing \vith the provisions in tlu~ Cointnon­wealth law, which h:d to do \cit.h shipping gcnerall0·. 'l'his Bill will apply only to intrastrrtn shipping·. and I can assure thL' {' ommitte0 that not onlv will it havP to do with our own shipping, 'but. notwithshnding· what has boon said by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, it is uniform with th0 la>Y app]~ving to the- f:('a carriage of good .. throughout the world.

:\fr. BEDFORD: Is it in tlw Communwea1th Xavigation ~-\et'?

'1'h< TRE"\SURER: It is. In fact, this clau::-c i·..:; an C"'\:aet cop~- oi a. sc·ction in that \et.

i'llr. DEllFORD: ()f th0 ConmlOlliH'altll :\~a viga tion Act '?

The TREASURRR: Yes. l\[r. BEDFORD: This clause is only for the'

purpose of prcventin2: a claim being ma<k on the shipping cornpnny for having carrir'd goods :n an unsca\YOrthy Yfss.el.

T;1o TREASrRER: I am afraid that tlw Lon. n1en1bcr i8 no1; tackling the subjr<'t ,'rio'-:.s1~). ~Ir. BEDFORD: Yes, I am.

Tho TREASURER : This clause does not in a11y way protect the ship, and does not conflict with the rights of shippers. Tlw argntYlcut of tho hon. 1nember for \V n,rrog·,> ;, that wo do not care whether the ships are tit ~nvorth~Y or not.

JY1r. BEDFORD: Surely -yon see the anontaly '?

'l'lw TREASURER: There is auothor Bill >vhich makes speci1d ])]'OYision for the s·'a­worthiness of ships; but, if I referred to ii·, I shuulcl be called to order. This clause is in conformitv with the Commonwealth :'-iavigation Act· passed in 1924. It is at prcsc'nt the law of Ne" South \Vales and \Vestcrn Australia, and this Dill is intro­duN•d to secure uniformity.

:\1r. BEmOim: \Vhat is the reason for it? J.;n't it to avoid rlai1ns br-ing tnadP un :-hipping eompani('S?

The TREAS17HEl{: It j, to overconw dif!icc!ltics which have in the past been opPrating· against Queensland.

f Mr. Bedford.

:\[r. l'E.\SE IHerbcrt): The information g·in•n by the· Trt'asurcr i::; not satisfactory. l-IP point:' o;1t that thi~ clause is sirnilar to i hP ·one in thP CmTnnon1vealth Navigation Ad. I lnvP explained that thc Common­''"ealth XaYigation Act -..,ya~ passC'd in 1924 b>· the Brut·P-Pago GoYe!'llment. All they "·orriP·d about wore the importers. 'l'hey did not worry about people who v·ent down to the sPa iu ships. As pointed out by the hon. n1C'rnlwr for \Yarrego, this clause ab·o­lutely rtdie,·es shipring companies from liability in ea .e an) thing does happen. I ··.ould rdl'l' rho TreasurC'r h Article III., "lwrr•ia it i< proYided-

,, The carrier shall be hound before and 'tt the lwginning of ihc Yoyagc to t'x:Prci.--e ·dn(' diligence to-

(rt) :.\Iakf' the ship seaworthy." How ':tn he rc•concilc that dam 3 with this ( Iau.:.t·. ··hich ~tatP::;-

(, Ther1\ .~.hal1 not bo itnplied in any contract for the rarriag0 of goods by '"a to- which ihis Act applic' any absolut,P undtwtaklng by the carrier of tiw goods to j1i'OYido a seaworthy ship."

Tlw t·bu~r, nre conflicting. The fact that tflC' Brut'_~-l)age· }'<n.porters' 'GOYC'rtunont nrr"·"'J a Bill <Yith a similar clause in it is i1o •·casoll "·11"' \YC 'hould do the same. Our ·dnt~- i~ to t'hc people who go to sea in ship::>--tlw pa~:"C'ngers and the cro\vR--and we n.l~{l haY•' a. JutL1 to perfonu to the p00plc \\'ho 'hip g·oo'k \Ye sec the nations of the world tig-htt•ning· up the proyi:;ions of Navi­gJli.n• ~"-ds to 'Cl' thot ship that go to ~" :1 arP ~l'll.'.·Ol'tln-. There is no warrant for 1 hl:-:; Gon•rn1n0rlt legislating bclo1v that :;;.tancL.ti·d. Tlw 1·easond giYea by the Trca­·"'l!H'r Hl't' inadequate. \Ye are absolutely opp0st'd to tlii> rlan'r, and I hope the Trea­~urpr ('\', 11 J;o; '"ill sC'<' the force of our

:>Ir. BEDFOHD (lrarrcgo): The 'I'rea­:-.lll't'r mPn!jorwd the· Connnonwealth Naviga­tion .\et. I1t ~Hre1"~ n1eans thf' Comnlon­.,,c,li:h ~,;a--ie·c,tion Amendment Act of 1924, which '· c' • paeic"d by the Bruce-Page

Tht· TR• \S"C"BrR: Thc- Sea Carriage of Cood~ 1\c:.

'That was passed by tho U o\ ~·rnn1cnt., aJH.1 I am not at at the Treasurer following their

:Jir. POLLOCK (Orcgory): We are not sai·die<l with tlw explanation of the Trea­surdr r·'~' arding this clause. It In cans that ~(·tL-;lHe rncn a~reo that a company which owllo ,hips shall not have a contract which provid0. th .t its ships shall be seaworthy. "\rf' " i<> undentand from the Treasurer that tho Navigation Act will override this H!Pa~urt' in that rc"'pect?

The TRE.\SUlER: ''l'he Commonwealth :\"ayig-ation Act, at any rate, says that a 'hip must be• 'ea>vorthy.

Mr. POLLOCK: This clause implies that a {'al'l'inr of goods shall not provide a sea .. >Yorthy ship. whereas Article III. provides that tlH carrier shall at the beginning or the y·oyage <>xercisc due diligence to makE' tlw ship seaworthy. How are the crews g-ojng to get on under circun1stances such as

this? No doubt the object is [7.30 p.m.] to protoet the owners of the

vossol against any claim for goods carrie-d on a ship which is wrecked. If provision for that were made, wo could

Sea C:arriayr of [l OCTOBER.] i/ood8 (State) Bill. 1327

nlllh•r,tunJ ii; but to say that the shipping· cmnpany is not to be forced to provide a ~Laworthy ship is asking us to agree to something· \Yhich we could not accept. Does the Treasurer mean to say that, because tho c;oods arc insured. it does not matter whether the ship goes down or not? \Vhat ahout the -crPW ': Perhaps the rrreasurcr, as a Christian. pins his faith in the Lord to sco that, if the goods go down, the crew will be sawd. I prcfpr to have a little more faith in the r\ct itself than to rely, as the Secre­tary for Labour and Industry said last night, OH ~omc pious aspiration. Certainly there is an explanatiou duo to the Committee which the Treosurcr has not yet given. If the hon. gentleman had given any argument to show that in some other Act which over­rides thi;.; ]egisiation ships 1nu·~t bo n1ade sea­"·o,·thv_ then I could understand his endea­vonri,ig to put this clause through; but, if that 1n•re the case, why remove any liability from the owners to provide a ship which i, ' a worthy? vYe cannot be expected to n,rsTce to t~is clan3C, and. ':'hat is IllOl'C', wo a r~',. not g01 ng to agree to It.

:\Ir. H. M. RGSSBLL ('I'oombu1): I think hou. members oppo ·ito have got the wrong end of the sticlc This measure merely deals with the sea carriage of goods. The Com­ntmnYealth Kaxigation .Act ]H'C'cribes that l\o ship shall go to sea unless it is seaworthy. Tlw rl'gnlations are VNy strict. and ther<> is ample protection to the passengers, the c·rc.v. and the cargo.

?\ir. POI.LOCK: ~-\gainst that this clatl':fc says t!t11 a ship may not be seaworthy.

:\h. H. :\L RC'SSEL: If clause 4 \vero not ia thi.< Bill. the onus ;vould be on the ship­owner to pro1·o that the ship was of such a nature that she could withstand all the perih of the sea; and, dcspito tho fact that , ho ship would go to S('a with a cortifJCatc from th(' :Xavigation Department that she "\\as sea\\~orthv. if \,he waR wrecked on the vo; :ge. it woiiid be quite possible for the o.hipo'.JJcr lo be mulet in damagPs for the loss of cargo, passengers, or crew 0 Conse­quently, this clause is inserted to give him ;..:on1e protrctiou agajnst actjons which might oec·lr, and which mig·ht prove that, despite the cortificatf' i sued by the Navigation Department, the ship ::as not absolutely sca­wort.ln. I might repeat what was said when the Commonwealth J\' avigation Act was being discus:-;;ed in 1924; and hon~ 1nmnbers should note that this clause is an exact cop:; of the section of the Commonwealth Act. Speaking in the Federal Parliament on the 20th August. 1924, Mr. Bowdcn, the hon. member for Parramatta, when speaking on :.n exact Teplica of this clause, said-

" The intention of the clause is that after every precaution nccee ,ary has been taken it is not for the owner of the goo-ds to '"" to the owner of thP ship that under" all the conditions of the voyage from its beginning to its end he is bound to provide an absolutely sca­,,·m·thy vessel in spite of storms and weather conditions or other unprcvcnt­able occurrences. H the clause were not inserted in this Bill the onus would be upon the shipping firm to warrant the provision of an absolutely seaworthy ;·ecsel, nnd if the vessel were wrecked from any cause whatever, the O\vncr of the goods could claim their value from the shipowner on the ground that he .,, arranted an absolutelv seaworthy ve-s-sel." .., "

The point arise"• Lhat, despite the certificate issued bv the ::'fangation Department-and the ship"owncr cannot do more than have Lis Yessel inspectPd by the authorities and obtain a certificate-the ship might be wrecked by reason of some inherent defect that was not known. Sure!, the owner should not be held responsible for the Ios" of passengm·s. crew, or cargo under those circumstances'? It ib necessary in this Bill to afford that protection to the shipowner ; but he must provide a seaworthy vessel, under the Navigation Act.

1\11·. PoLLOCK : Does that Act override this ?

:\Ir. H. l\1. RUSSELL: The Navigation Act will ovcn·id~ this Act with regard to the sea worthiness of a vessel. Unless this cla:usc is agreed to, there js a danger that thn shipowner will lJo r~sponsible for losses whid1 are absolutely beyond his control.

::\lr. BEDFOHD: In the case of a fire on a train, does not the Cornrnissioncr pay for 1 he loss of the goods?

::\lr. H. M. RUSSELL: H all d<>pe!Hls on how they are insured.

l\lr. BEDFORD: \Vhether they are insured or not, he has his duty as a con1mo11 carrier.

::\1r. H. :M. RUSSELL: The Commis­sioner is liable for neglect on the part of his "'n·ants, and not for anything else. The :--hipcnviH~r also is responsible for neglect on llw part of his 'ervants, but he is not respon­~ihle for the perils of the sea.

Mr. POLLOCK: You arc absoh·ing him from that. rcsponsibilit.:: 0

Mr. H. M. RUSSELL: \Ye onlv absolYe him from the responsibility for darn age that might be brought a-bout by perils of the sPa; but this clause does not preclude him frmn obtaining his certificates of seaworthi­ness from the :'\a vigation Departm0nt before he s.ets out. His responsibility then end , nnles:•.; hiR :::0rYants ~,re guilty" of neglect or of a n1a1icions action. In the raf'o of lo.;:.;;: at se '1, it might be; contended that, despite tlw certi~~atc furnished by the Navigation Departme11t, the ship was not seaworthy.

Mr. BEDFORD: Take tlw ca"c of th0 "Ata­cmna.'' Thai- class of ship might be declared to bo sca•.,-orthy because it harl 200 lb. of cement poured into it to keep its knees straight and keep it afloat, and the owner of that ship would not then be liable.

Mr. H. M. RUSSELL: We cannot legis­late against that. If the owner gets a certi­ficate from the authorities, he is not respon­sible- for any locs occasioned by tlw perils of the sea.

Mr. "\Y. FORGAJ\' SMITH (Mackay): J cannot see any reason why t!w Minister should persist in this clause. Obviously it is copic'd from th<· Commonwealth Act of 1924. and has been put into the Bill to be in conformitv with that Act; therefore, I <lo not blame the Minister altogether for having; the clause in the Bill. But I think the hon. gentleman ought to be prepared to hear arguments as to why the clause should be removed. If ho still considers the clause should be retained, then the onus liu on him to state a case for the clause.

It is quite evident that the clause has been tlraftcd to relievP the shipowner of certain respemsibilities. The Minister and the hen. member for Toombul have pointed out that: the clause is intended to prevent any liability

J!llr·. Smith.]

1328 Sea Carriage of [ASSEMBLY.] Goorls (State) Bill,

falling on the shipowner for something over which he has no control. That is not really the point at all. The clause reads-

" Thoro shall not be implied in any contract for the carriage of goods by ',ea to Yvhich this Act applies an) absolute undertaking by the cari'ier of the goods to provide a seaworthy ship."

What is a seaworthy ship? A seaworthy 'hip is a ship that is declared to be sca­\vorthy vvithin thP ln(mning of the Comrnou­w2,Lltli ?\avig,1tion Act-in other \YOrds a chip that hac, been passr'd by the marine surveyors and the Government officers appointed for that purpose. That is what constitutes a seaworthy ship v;ithin the meanin&' of this clause; therefore, the clause as 1t stands relieves the o· .. mer of the liability to have his ship seaworthy within the meaning of the term "seawm·thy'' as defined in the Commonwealth Navigation Act. That is obvious; so that the Minister is introducing something into this Bill which is dangerous.

It can be argued, as the hon. member for Toombul has argued, that it is unfair for a shipowner to be asked to incur a fin.ancial liability due to circumstan.ccs over whw.h he has no control; but that 1s not the pomt I am d~aling with. I am arguing that a ship that go(s to sea carrying passengers, crew, and goods should be as sea worthy as it is possible for human knowledge and ingenuity to provide for. That is the principle and basis of the Commonwealth Navigation Act. It is the basis of the :Minister's own State Navigation Act. Every country in the world has found it necessary to legislate with a view to protecting the lives of people as well a·, the carriage of goods at sea; and that is the principle on which all those laws ought to bn based. The Minister is departing from that principle in this case, and is absolving the owner of a ship from liability to supply a seaworthy ship, a seaworthy ship being one which is seaworthy within the meaning of the Commonwealth Navigation Act~in other \vord~, '"hich has been classed as sea\vorthy by tho marine surveyors or whatever autho­rity is appointed by the State or Common­wealth to look after that class of utility. If words n1ca n anything, that is what this clause means. If it does not moan what I sav it does, then it is mere surplusage. If· the law after the pasoage of this Bill will provide that the shippers and those who travel on ships will recci vo a lJ the protection of the Navigation Act. then this clause is not required; but t'hc reason this clause is in the Bill, particularly when it is read in con­junction with a subclausc in the srhedule, lcade 0110 to the conc11Jsion that und.er this clanse \Ye ur(~ giving the shipowner an immunit·-T which he does not now have under tlHl lo.v:. A eeD.worlhv shir .. I repeat, is ono t·hat is ec worthy within H1e terms of the l'TaYl~~-tion Act and whi< h has obtained a ccrtificat' for that purposo under that law. Now \Ye nre giving the shipowner an immu­nitv which in equity he has no right to get, and in contr .Yentioa of the principles of the navi"ation laws of this State and other civilised countries. ·

The TREASURER (Hon. W. H. Barnes, IFynnurn): I want to point out YCrv definitelv !o the. <;Jommittee that the clause 'is in kecp­mg w1tr1 the Hague rnles, which are drawn up to operate on a uniform basis, and define the responsibilities, liabilities, rights. immu­nities, etc., of carriers under bills of lading. The Commonwealth Act, from which I shall

[Mr. Smith.

quote directly, follows the Imperial Act-and this is in >tnswcr to the Leader of the Oppo­sition-and applies to the Australian trade "' frrr ''" the l!'eder: l Constitution will allow, it being- definitely stated in section 4 (2) that tiw Act wiil not apply to the carriag·e of gcods fr01n a port in any Stato to any other port in the s ·me State That being so, New Sourh \Vnics and \Yestcrn Australia have pa '.1ccl lcgielation similar to this to protect their own intrastate trade.

.Mr. I'E.'SE: ::\'o-to protect the shipping companies.

The TREASURER: I did not interrupt the hon. member when hc1 was speaking. lt is no use the hon. member trying to draw a rod herring across the trail for the pur­pose of suggesting that hon. members on this side do not care very much for the safety of men who go to sea. I want to say that a Treasurer or any othe•r hon. member who held those views would be an inhuman creature.

Mr. PoLLOCK: This is a strange way of showing your sympathy.

The TREASURER: The hon. member, as usual, is playing to th<; gallery. He is an adept at .that sort of thmg. Let me draw the attention of hon. members to the rule-; set out in the schedule to the Bill in Article III., clause 1-

" The car·rier shall be bound before and at the beginning of the voyage to exercise due diligence to-

(a) Make the ship seaworthy; (b) Properlv man, equip, and sup­

ply the ship; and (c) Make ihe holds, refrigerating

and cool chambers, and all other p.ut·• of the ship in which goods arc carried. fit and safe for thcjr reception, C1•r­

riage, and preservation."

That appears in the very Bill which hon. Incn1bcrs opposite arc criticising.

}~o\v let n1.c quote frorn the '' Public General Acts of the United Kingdom " to show that a similar sC'ction appoars there. In "The Carriage of Goods by Sea Act of 1924," section 2 says-

" There shall not be i1nplicd in any contract for tf ,- carriage of goods Ly sc:1 to ;yhich the rules ~pply any ab 'J­

luto nndcrtilking by the canicr of the goods to rn·0vidc a sea wol'thy ship."

I quote th-:t to bc-:r out uy contention thot this Bill is nlorcly bring:ng our le ;sl ti( .n into line wjth that of 1hB Un-;L d I\._;ngcloul, and, in order to pr'-'YO thn.t it i:; br;n~oi:!_~g' it into lino Yvith tlwt of the Common· c ,Jth, let me fiUOt•' section 5 of " The s, :1 C ··.r­riage of -Goods Act of 1924 "-

" TlJcrc shall not Le imp lied i!l any contract for th·; carriage of goods by sea. to \Yh~ch this Act applies a:Jy ab.c:::>lntc lllldt~rtaking b~.~ tho c·nTicr of the gc.,od-3 to provide a ,cn•wrthy ship."

r:l"hc cfan.-.;e agrees practically word for '\vord with the corresponding section m the Cmnmonwco,lth Act. vYhen deliYcr:ng hi.o 8,··cond reading speech on tho Sea Carringe of Goods Bill in the Federal Parliament, tbc iate Mr. Pratten, then Minister for Trade ttnd Custoa1s, said-

" The terms of bills of lading i1a.vo been subject to much cor:tention owing to the lack of equity and uniformity.

Sea Carriage of [1 OcTOBER.] · Goods (State) Bm. 1329

Shipowners have inserte~ ciauscs modify­in~ their lirrbhty, ana shrppers haYe do~nanded legislation to regulate the matter. The Imperial Shipping Com­rni ttcc, in a rc1-.:ort, m a do as hm,f{ ago H"l February, 1921, ·rc,__onln1endcd uruf.c~rrn legislation throughout Lhe Etnpll'P Before ef!'ect could be grvcn to that rccorrnncndation a nlOYCrllCnt developed to secure >Yorlcl-wide umformity in l>ills of lading, and. that rewltecl in a ,draft known "" the · Hague rules, 1921. In October 1922 at an International Con­ference 'in Br'ussels on th.: rnaritin1o law, a set of rules based on the Hague rules was unanimously recoinmcnded as a ba~is for an international conY<'ntion. In 1923 a Select Committee of the Houce of Commons again held an inquiry. The Briti 'h G ovornrnont had refused to take action on the ground th>tt a bill of ladjng was a contract bebveen parties, but the Select Committee strongly recom­mended that action should be taken. The committee mentioned also that in the United States of America an Act ''"as pa;.secl in 1893 \restricting shipowner' and that similar legislatiOn had been passed in Australia, Canada, and ::'><ew Zealand. The rules recommended by the International Conference in Brussels in 1922 were embodied in a Bill in the House of Lords, and the question was of so much importance that rt was care­fully considered by a joint committee of both Houses of the Imperial Parlia­ment. The Imperial Economic Confer· ence in 1923 passed the following resolu­tion:-

This Imperial Economic Confer­ence, having examined the rules relat­ing to bills of lading rwcommcnclecl by tho International Confurencc on ::\Iari­time Law, held at Brussels in October, 1922 and cm bodied in the Carriage of Goods by S•.'a Bill now before the British Parlian1ent, is of opinion i-hat in all ossentiaJ principles they are bas<'cl upon 'The Canadian Watrr Carriage of Goods Act 1910.' and the report of the Imperial Shippmg Committ0e, 1921 and lwlicving that there is a good pl'o Poet of international agrf'"'lnent in regard to bills of lrrcling on this basis which would be of benefit to every part of the Empire, considers tha't thc·,c rules can be recommended for adoption b.v the Governments aucl Par­lian1ents of tbo Etnpire.'"

I am perfectly certain that the information that l have now eonvC>y<~d s1.ould convince eYerv hon. lllC'mbcr that there is absolute ncecr for uniformity in this matter.

Mr. PEASE (Hcrbcrt): 'fh,, 'l'rcasurer has r:ot <:·onvin~ ·'d cn1vbod v tlut clause 4 should r. rn:1.in in th~ Difl. r:l1hcrc is no reason \Yhv \'\'O shc1lcl perpetuate a wrong i1nportcd fron1 the: oH:er sido of thP v,orld The

did JJOt giYo any rc230n y1·hatever clan~:! f'honk{ not bu OLiitted fl·on1

the ; he mcrr·l:r "note ·l ,,,h Lt had hap-1 overs·• .::; ; and ~ .. h ; he did qnoto only fnrni::-hr d an nrldoJ reason why tho clatne ;:dwnld L_, rt'mo,~(~d ft·vnt iho Hill. I nave c:Jlrcad,._~ 1 "fCtTc)d the hon. w ·ntlernan to tho fact thut flTI intnrnational convention has rcccntl.v concludPd its s.itting . The con· ,.t,nfon \\a~ of 1 he opinion that n1any of 1 he old c'! 1 blished <'onditiom should be l'Cvo1{L'd, and no doubt jt agreed to tho

HJ30- <1 N

rcvor:1t.ion of the condition that we are 11ow "'kPcl to affirm.

:\Ir. H. M. R1 'SELL: The convention did ·nt revokE: an> thing.

}1r. PE/'..SE: The IIaguo Conference rnen­tioil: J by t-he ~iini -tt>r took plac~~ nutny :rear~· a':·o. bnt the IuLPrnational Conference n:-'fclTl~d t; by n1e tuok pluu; ouly a fo1tnight ago. That confc,Tnce fonnd it necessary to do ,,, hat \1• e a. re attcn1pting to clo now-to tand up, not for the shipowners, but for

the people ,.vho go down to the sea in ,<;hips. 'J.lftat conforcnco was represented by hvcnty nations, ·whosu rcprcs...:ntat!ves UlHl~i· mously adopted conditions revokmg ccrtam motters which the Treasurer now desires to place on the. statute-book of Queensland. The main question dealt with by the con­ference was tho seaworthiness of ships, and the extract read by the Treasurer proves our argument. No one has proved the case more against this clause than the Treasurer. Does the hon. gentleman not recognise that the convention he spoke of took place many_ years ago, and at the <:On­fcrPnco a fortmght ago rt was recogmsecl that those resolutions were wrong and they were revoked? That conference did not stand bv the shipowners but by the pas­sengers and crew. The Treasurer himself has praYed our case by asserting that the clesi;o to insert this ch1.nse \Vas because n~rta1n things had transpired overseas some years ago.

The TREASuRER: \Vhat you say is abso­lutely incorrect.

Mr. PEASE: As I pointed out, the nations of the world revoked the clause quoted by the Treasurer relating to the seaworthiness of ships.

ThP Tn: ·iST:RER : You are making a mis­take.

Mr. PEASE: The conference recently held proyicJed that ships coming to Queensland must be absolutely seaworthy; yet the Trea­surer in this clause providc·s they n' eel not be. Like all the legislation of the Govcrn­n·ont, this Bill goes back to the dark ages.

The TREASURER (Hon. W. H. Barnes, 1V?fnnum): The hon. member for Horbert !node a statement which is not correct.

l\1r. PEASE: It is correct. The TllEASURER: The hon. member

cannot vouch for its corrcctn-"ss. The con­ference he refers to 'Yas a, conference on ,hips.

Mr. PE.if~: It was not. The TRE;ASURER: I am very sorry to

srty that the hon. member, in keeping with his usual tactics, has got hold of sorncthmg riuht outside the suhjc.,t in order to sub­st~ntiatc his ea~"'· Ho has a pc or case 1chcn he is compelled to resort to such tac­ti~ -,, As a Jnat: r of fact. tho confcreHco rdr•rrcd to bv the hon. me mbcr hctcl no connecbon y>:·ith the l-Iaguo Conferenc.J, anJ lite ho~L m<ruber knows it.

l.Ir. W. FORGAN s:HlTH (1fr~cka71): Tho Tree, surer has quo' •cl from the lmp._rial Ace, frorn ( ; Cor:~.uLFnn1··alth Nu..Yir-ation Act, and fr·m1 the .Lc:onon1ie Conferm~ce dealing with th; sea c !.Ti<v~e of goods. 'Ye hav-e neve-r .doubtt~d that th?s dauso is contained in tho,-, Acb; nor do we doubt th" <>on­ff'l'f'nce he CJUOtf'(l \Vas actually held, nnd !hat ..::rrt.a1n renorts \YC'l'C -~jy;·n oi the con­fercnc<'. But fhat do--;; not in it::-·e1f r'ivo iu~tific.ttion for i his dnusc. A pn -:r:der1t b. :au:-o it is a precedent is not of 1trelf

.Mr. 8mith.]

1330 Sea Garn:agc of [ASSEMBLY.] Goods (State) Bill.

good. Parliament should only follow good pret::~cdents, and, if ncce~sary. n1akc ne1.v pre­cedents which are in tlwmseh·cs good. That is the policy "'" should adopt.

The SECRETARY FOR HAILW.\YS : \Vho is to be the j ndge a' to \\'hl'thCl' they are good or bad·:

Mr. \Y. FOUGA:\ S:\IITII: Those who are intelligL'llt. l r<•peat that this clause gi_veq a shipowner innuunity froru legal liabilit,· to which he is now subject; and tilL' Treasu]·pr has failed to establish any case by suggesting that immunity should be granted.

l\Ir. H. ::'11. RCSSELL (Toombul): Hon. 1nen1bers opposite arc entirely wrong in their contentions. lf they only read the Bill thev would see that it designedly pro­tect~ thC consignee in intrastate shipping. To-dav W(' huvP no Bea Uarriage of Good· Act ii1 Queensland. and consig11ees are at the n1ercY of shipowner~. The objert of thi,.; Bill ·is to extend ct'rtain privileges to consignees whi-ch thev do not vossess to-da:·. and 'which thcv ca;mot obtain under the Con11nonwealth ~Sea Carriage of Goods Act .. whieh only applies to interstate trade.

i'vir. BEIJFOH!l: You do not preH'nt the con~ignor sPndiug goods iu nn unseaworthy ship.

[8 p.m.J ::VIr. l'OLLOCK: Do you mPan to tell us

that an un~oa\Yorthy ship 1:3 a protection to consignee~ of good::;'?

Mr. H. :YI. HCSSELL: I haYe alread,v c•xplaincd that the res.ponsibility 'of !the ,hipowner to proYidc a sea worthy vessel still remains under the ::\'aYigation Acts. All that rhj:) dausc- IU('am~ i~ -that after th<" provision" of the ::\uYigation \et h ~n-' bc•cn <'Urnplied with there :-hall be no absolute '" arrantv a~ between the shipO\'Yllcr a11d the shippei· of th~ gooclo that a seawor-thy Yesspl has bcl'll pl'OYidcd. If thi;::. claww wprc not inserted. the question would ari,;p whether the mere ~hi ppiug of guods iu a ~hip reasonaLly sup­posed to l:1c ~P<nrorthy is tantamount to an C~boolute \Yanant:y on the part of thP ship-01\ ner to the shipper of the goods that the ,;hip is ·t'aworthy. Under thi-; Bill the onus will be placed on the shipper of the goods of insuri11g hi~ goods against the ordinar:v ri-.;ks of thl' voyagt'. If thj:-; clau~e were not inserted in ihP BilL the onus "·oulcl be upo11 the shipping Iinn to \varrant the provision of an absolute~\· scaworthv vessel: and, if the \~cs.3-Pl were Wrec·ked. fro'i11 anv Ct~u:~c ·what­PH·!', th0 owner of the good,;, could clain' their value from the shipowner on the ground that he warranted an abso]utelv scaworth· vessel. The mere fact that. a ves~cl met with an accident on her voyage, even although she had a certificate from the Navigation Department, might prove that she was not ~ea\Yorthy i11 e\'ery re~"pect; and in that ca:3e the shipownn would be called upon to pa,· for tlw losses. That is not a fair respon­sibilitv io nut on his shoulders. Under tlw tEll '~'C' art: giving the OWllPl'~ of the {'argo privilege, they have not had before, and WL' think it is fair that the mYner of good' :-hould a:".~UIHP tl1at risk against \Yhich ''"e •an ii~sun} ihP goocl~ if tho Xavig-ation Dcpart­xuent eer·tif!e,., that the ship on which they are plac 'Ll i, ""'worthy. I want to disabuse the ruind~ of hon. rne1nbcr:-- of the Opposition I hat nnd<'r this clanse it woulcl bP possible for an unsc)a worthy YC'S~Pl to go to sra.

J.-Ir. \Y. FoRG.IX i":mTH: \Vhv an: you ~iYing thcRP ppople dn il1Pga( imrnuuity th.1t tlw:. do not cnjo_y now·~

I J!r. Smith.

Mr. IL M. Hl:SSELL: \Ye arc giving them no rmmunity. \Ye are only giving this protection-that the shipowner shall not be responsible for the loss of the goods if the vessel is vvrocked on the vovage; and un]e~~ this clause is inserted, tlwt. resp01;sibilit.' ,,,11 be on the shoulders of the shipowner. It is not a fair thing- to pnt that responsi­bilitv on the shipowner: but, at the sanw time, he has the responsibility, which he must ~hou1cler, of sending his ship to sea in ,1 cc a worthy condition.

Mr. DU:\'LOP (l!ocl.-lw!llplon): It is amus­iug to mo to hear tbc Treasurer and the 11011. rnernbcr for Toornlnd tryi11g to eanlou­flage this clause. I do not care whether tlwsc hon. members read from Primer 3 4 or 5; the wording of thi~ clause is a.~ it. ~tands, and I a.n1 sure the parlian1cntarv draftsn1an n1ust haYe been greatly arnus0({ wh<'n he framed thi,.; clause to please thP Trf',t~urer. The clause reads-

•· ThPn' shall not Le iu1plicd in any c 'l1trD.rt for thC' carriage of goods b~· sea tu v,·hich t hi~ ~-\('t tt}lplies an.' absolute nndPrtaking by the carrier of the goods to ]H"OYidc a ~l'a\Yorthy :-:hip.''

.~11" school child three ~·c•ars of age could llllth~lA·tand that that lllPUll~ that an unsPa­wort hy ~hip i~ going to sea. 1 quitP under­~t~nd tl1at. the Trea~urer is in sym·pathy 'v.rth the safpty of ilH' t'l"t'W; lJut he is rnaking­hnnself absurd by inserting this clause in the Bill. 'Thl' books that the TI·easurcr read fr(ll!l ·want atnending. anJ thi~ clau::"C want~ cntting out. The hon. memuc•r for 'Toombnl r0ad somt~ clause which practically 1nakes thiK absurd. and, if \Yhat 1iH• hon. rnembel' actually n "Ml 1ra-- iJI(·ludl'd i1l tlJe daus~, ic wonld be sPnsibk. I would uot bP '" ~tnpid as to support a nonsc·Hsical clau~e· lik<' this.

tJue:::.tion-~-;' That dan~c 4, a . ..; rpacl. stand part of th<' Bill., pu1; a11cl tlu• C:onnuitlc•n di\-ided:-

AYES, 36. :Mr. Annand )-.lr. K1'!IT

Atherton lJr. Kerwin Barnes_. G. P. :\·lrs. Longman DarnH, \V, H. Mr. :\lacgroart:r Blackley Maxwell Boyd lVIoore Brand :\1argan Butler Ximn1n Cal'ter Peterson co~te1lo Plunkett Daniel Eus~~ell, H. ::\L Deacon Russell, ~W. A. Durry Si?.er Fry Swayne Grimdone Tedn1an Hill Walker, H. F. Jami~son \Valker, J. E. Kenny \'VarrE'n Tellers: 1\Ir. Co,tello and Mr. ~FrJ'.

Nor·:sJ 2~.

l\!r. Barbf'r Mr. .Tones, A. Bedford .lone", A . .J. Bow Kirwan Brassington :.Vlullan Bruce O'Kecf<· Bulcock Peus:e Cooper Pollork Das:h Smith Dunlop "\Vellington Hanlon \Vit>nholt Hanson Wilson Hyncs ~Wins! qnley Tellers: ilfr. C'ooprr :ll :VIr. Hyne,,

PAIR. AYE. No.

~"Ir. Eel ward~:.; ~Ir. Stop ford

HPS·'lved ll1 the affirm

Se'l C'arrioge of [1 OcTOBEH.] Uood" (State) Bill. 1331

{ 'iausc·~ 5 aud 6 agreed to.

C'1au~c_· 7-" Eulk t n·yocs "-

~lr. l'E.\SE (lit cbrrt): I was surprised to hPur thP hou. Juen1ber for Tootnbul ;,ay d:at thi~ Bill gl\·f's rertaiu pri\·ilegcs to t}w ,.h]ppQr:-~ of cargo: and I \\·as also surprised at thP TI'('<<Stll'Pl' al1owiug thi:5 clause to g0 iu. llecrlU:-it', whatCYCl' pri \·ilegcs or proh'c~ tion thf• ~hlpJH'l'~ of cargo haYO had in ll~C' pa~t. this clau~r· i~ n•moYing t.ht_•nt. (:JS gaol;., ~uch a~ grain. procluce. potatoc~. an-d "::0 OIL

shirJlH~d :-;o many bag~ to the ton. a.r,~ L'kl'Jl

on railway weight~. 1~udr-r the clause it :.;tands, if 5 Dl' 6 t::m~ of llOt.atoos wel'l'

:-.hiplH'd fnHn Brisbane• to Cairns. thC' ship­ping cmnpany could rven deliver thf' c1npty hags and br' ('X''lllpt fron1 liability. It look::-: n-., if 1-hi:-; j-.; h Bill to force people to USl'

thP rail\\ay~. a~ \YbateYr-r protection ship­PL'rs of cargo had prevjou~ly is taken a\YHY fron1 thc1n. and naturallY thf' railwa~. s \\·ill lwncfit. h\· thi:-;. I ;:un ·inclined to 'bc]l,•YL' that thi-. 'is tho SecrNarv for Railways' BilL 1 would a~k tl10 Tl'f'as.nrf'r if hP l;as con­"''id('rcd thi:-; dau:->0, l-Ie' kno\yf;, in connPc­tion 1nvrf' particular]~· with 'i1l·oduce 1 that 1 hr· 1·ail•.·:ay wPigl1bridgC' wright,,, are ahvay:-; rakt'lL If the hem. gL·ntlcnlan':3 firnt. for ill::>tanc·t~. ship·· fift ... - bag~ of proclnco f·ront bore to Town,ville or Caim,, they produce 1hc weigbhriclge weight. and that weight i~ ddin:rcd a..t tiH) otht'l' end. lTndPr thi~ Bill we are takin~ awav all llabilitY ~o far as shipowners Ul,'t' eor;t·ernPrL Tllcy can deliYcr tlw Pmpt,· bag' at th<' other end i:: i.hcy like. und tLc :-:hipper:-; \Yould haYe lK cl.c1im. That j:-; what 1 hi:-:; clau.-.0 rneans.

I ask the Treastn'C'r whether he has seri­_m::-1y cml~idl~re-d thr clause. It reach,--

.. \YhPl'C under tlll' eu.-.tonl of anv trade the wpight of any bulk cargo inserted in the bill of ]ndinp: j~ a \Yt'ight a~,certnined or ncccpt<'d by .a third party other than the carrit·r or t}E• ~h1ppC'l', and thr fact rhat the \Ycight i::.: f'O ascf•rtained or aeceptt·d is 't.atcd in thc> bill of lading. then. not \Yith:;;tanding anything in th0 mles, the bill of lading shall uot be deemed to be prima faciP cYidence agaimt thP canier of the receipt of goods of the weight so inserted in the bill of lading. a n<l tlH' arcuracv thereof at the time of ,hipmont shall iwt bo deemed to have bePll guaranh·c•d by the shippc:t.''

contend that it means what I sav. The •r1 eusurcr and anyone else \Yho has had any-1 bint-; to do with the produce business kno1v~ thai the only protection to tlw 'hipper is th<' "·eighbridgc \\·eig·hi. In tlw South certain weighbridg; :-; are licensed, and the shipping proplc ha.-<> to deliYcr those weights. The Trca~nrer is taking that protection a1vay from the trader.

The TRE.\f'rRER: l\o.

:\Ir. PEASE: I sav hC' i;-;. and I know as mnch about the quost~on. as he does. He oulv knows it from this end; I knm\' it from th;, olhN end. If the 1\Iini.itcr's firm shipp<:d 100 bag~ of ,-;,-beat rnaizc. or other produc0. "· irl1 cPrtificd wPight \\·hicb the shipovvnet~ ac·c·'ptcd f01· thr' purpose of payment of f1·~~ight, th0:~ woulJ haYC' to deliver those

t·ights at the other· end.

The TRE\SCtn:R: Xo.

-:\Ir. PEASE: \Vhat Is thC' good of saying 1~ is not so'! I knO\Y it i~. ::\o finn of ~hip­{1\YIWrs will refu~c to pay a clainl for a big

deficiency if yon c.an establish it. No one ~eorrics about a fc1Y pounds out of .a bag; but if I a1n getting 20 tons of tnaize, and I find out that half the bags are half empt:. and I establish the weights to the shipowners' satisfaction, they will ahvays pay. The Tn-a· "urer. ho\Yover. is putting in this Bill a provision which gin~s the sbipo~:vners ab:=~o­lute immunity frow a liability they havo rc~cognist?d, and bccanSL' there has been no provision in the la''" ag'ainst the custont they haYe rccognised4 Th1~ is going to n1ake itself felt on the produce people, because it will mean that people will not be able' to lm,· produce in Brisbane from tlw Dowm. and elsewhere and ship it north. \Yhat the bon. rnmnbpr for Toornbul .says is right; but the• fact l'f'InaiH:;; th<Jt, if you can produce a railwa.:v vvcighbridg-c tirket and the ship­O\Yners bayc chan!Pd you freight on tho::;o Wc.jghts, they wlll pay a clairn if :von c.tn <'stablish it at the otbcr Pnd. Th•; Railway Dcparilnent doe::; the :-;ante thing. I have brPn paid in respect of claims I ha Ye made. I haYo b>'en in tlw produce trade for a. nunibl'l' of ":ea l'S, and. like the Treasurer r know whnt r~ done. J3oi.h the shipowners ~nd tbc Haihvav Department will tl'eat you fairly. You 11roducc your railway \\'C>ighbridgo or cc•rtified weighbridge ticket to th,, ship­O\'\'HC'r'1. and t'he \Vt>ig-hts are n1arked on the t·ormtcrfoil of tlte chipping receipt. If the Treasurer bought maiz<> from Athert m and he )woduccd these weigh bridge tickelb to tho ·d~ipping con1pnny and the cou1pany charged lnm on the basis of those weights, then, if n, :'.f'l'lous shortage \YCro di::-coYcred on .arrival_ at BrisbanP, no shipping con1pany in Qucen,{­lancl would refn,c to pay the chim. I say that l>ccau"' I haYc had a good deal to do wjth ~hipping- nHtizc front Atb...,rton to Cairns aml from th0re to all parb of Quee!1Rland; rul(l iilYnriabJ:'-r the practice has bi'QU to <w<ypt in the "'ori.h thr railv.ay weighbridge ,,·p;ght~. hecau~c that jp. the onlv fonn of n·cogni~('(1 wcighbridg0s Wf' haYL~. In the South tlH•rp arc otlwr \YPighbriclg':;, such aR UJunicipnl -wC'ighbridgC's, whose v;,·eights are lTCOg-ni~Pd nll OY('l' Au~tralja. rrnsmania for inst anc0, ~hip.-.: potnto0s front Deyonport' ancl oth.rr plaee" on rt'gi;:;;t'f'rf'd wcighbri.dge \'\C'lg-hts. -

Th0so \Ycight::; arP ucceptecl aL the flcrure.;; given, m! cl tIre freight is cor;1putecl "'upon tho'c \YPlght> and the quant1tv delivered at the other end. EYery shippitig compan.v· has always been fair in this respec:t, whether the carg'? has been potatoes. onions, grain, or anvthmg else. If there has been faultv hancllinr-:. ~ags !1aye b:~eu ~pJit, and th'(~ f'Ontrr~ts E!pll

1t,_ shq1owners. have' ah\.ay::; J?aid

a dann. 'Iln.;; clause lnll have a serious dfect upon thP pri{llary producers. li'or example. the Athcrton maizcgrowcrs will be placed. in a .dangerous position bN'D.USf' of the \VIth<h:a\>al of thi~ 1\'ilrrantv. and ship­o\\·ners \\'lll he pcnmttecl to ad as thev pl0asc. Most of the loss in \\'Pigbt occur~ t-hrotH:rh c·nrolPssnc::.s. nnrl I as.k tllf' Trf'a­~un•r seriou~l~.- to ·reflect bPforo lns:ist.ing­upon passing this clause. The Atherton mnize pool forwards shiplonds of maize to !~ngland, and. thr freight is charged ac-cord­lng to the rarlvi·a!7 rates. No one tak0 anY notice of tlw loss of a few pounds in w<>ight l)((t if half the shipment is slack the ship: owner invariabh· pavs the rlairn. T ask the Trea~urcr agnirl ~f'r.iou~1y to TCfl(_•ct before ('reating a posii:iou 1vhich will be danr,.'rou~ to the shippers nn<l the primarv produco!·s of QLte01l··land. ·

;}Jr. Pease.]

1332 Sea Carriage of [ASSEMBLY] Goods (State) Bill.

Tile THEASGRER (lion. W. li. Barncs, Wynnum): The hem. member for Herbcrt diu not com·ev to the Cc.mmit'.ce all the f .et, that ho sl;ould have made kno·:.·n. He is right in s~t:'ing 'hat -;.l'c shipping conl­panic~J nahl'rally arc an2;:ious to 1naintain the goocl \Yill of thf'i_~_· the sa1ne as any ordinary Lusincss COH('r~rn he_ 111~do thr dcliber to that' shl()ptng u~rupauics ·woulJ at tho vort of dis-charrro th0 san1c of produce a~l taken on b-;,ard at the of loauing. Th··t is absoiutcly '·Tong.

Mr. PEASE: You are wrong. They have ulways done that in the Korth.

The TREASURER : I venture the opinion that the books of nearly every ftrm in the city that imported potatoes from :'Vlelboumc would disclose the fact that in not one case did the line weigh out exactly the same• as when placed on board the boat. There is ab·ay; a shrinkage in transit.

Mr. PEASE: I was not referring to ,;)ninkage in transit.

The TREASURER: The hon. member is t'rying to sidetrack again.

Mr. PEASE: ~o; I ask you to be as fair as I \Vas.

The TREASURER: That would be very difficult, iuched. He also said that railway weights \Yere alw:tys taken in respect of goods that were shipped. That is not cor­rect.

:i\Ir. PEASE: For bulk cargoes?

The TREASURER: There may be somo fo rmcrs in this Committee to-night who have consigned produce, say, from rroo­woomba OT elsewhere, and, vhilst some n1ight clain1 that the -wi:'1ghts 'vcre different from those gi' on at the point of tranship­rncnt, I can safdy ~ay that the weights are lc~s ,\-hen the goods are sold in Brisbane than when th· y are loaded at country 9id-ings.

Mr. PEASE: You arc referring to shrink­age an cl not to pill age.

The TREASURER: No buyer will buy unless rebates aTe granted. I admit that, if goods are forw11rckcl Ly rail to Cairns, tho rai!~Yay \Ycights are taken. and they are final; but the i"ado cannot pla<;e maize or any other line on the wharf in Br:sbane and rely upon railway \Ycight'. The produce hJ.s to be reiY<'ighcd and tickets furu' ohed showing that tho \Yeigoht i' there. This is an ah:-oiut ]v f3.ir clause. I kPO\V as rnuch about th~s bl1sinr~ as the hon. rncmhcr. lie C<lllHOt t' rv·h lTI~ Hllything' about jt. rr11Cl'C

may be some thing~, which I will not f':rumcratc, abont IYhich he can teach rue. but I dO 11< t. ,,-:Hit to jntroducc thosr things jnto Jhi' di E"ion. All that I '';ar:t to say is that this is ,. foir clause.

~Jr. PF,\~'~: If ~-on ::ihip n1·lizJ fro-n ~~orLh QucelF·ln~Jd, ,_,hat weights Jo yoa give the shjpow:~crs 't

The TPK\S'C'ILPR: You pnt it over "' rcg·isto::rr'1 wr'ighbridge ,in the C'ity. and obt;:}in the e;rrcct -...vc1ght·-) whi, h are ar~c pt< .) Ly tho buyer.

l\1r. PB \SE (/TrrlJrrt): The Trc.asutcr statrs lhat mc1iz0 before b('inQ' ~hipped is put oYel' a rf'~·istcred wP1ghbridg0, ,_tncl that tl:e ,.,-: ;vl•t is a~'·_;()ptPd b: thr shippinq: com­pnni~ .

Thr Tn·· \SrRER: I said lh 'Y n.r(~ ar·( ''pted lr· the buyer.

[Hun. W. H. Barnes.

Mr. l'EASE: Do they not charge freig·ht Ol! tho..:;c v. ei;;-hts?

The THi!ASUREH: Yes, but they do not giyo a guarantee.

::.1r. PE~\SE: L; that not. thn weight stated on 'he ship's manifest 1

Thoe Tm:.\cULm: Yes.

::\lr. PEASE: That is wh<tt I waut to get at. \',' hy should uot that be tlw weight dcli re red aL the other end? The Troa surer is quite right in Laying that produc-e co1ning frorn Too'" ooruha is rc.\vPighed in Brisl.Junc because of shrinkage. If a cons.ignor con­Rigns goods vYhose weight is accepted on the shipping receipt and freight charged aecordingly, should not the consignee at the other end r0ceive that weight 1 No one at the other end \Yill deal \\'ith Brisbane ii that is not the positi~n. If a man con­signs 10 tons of maize to a person in North Queensland ftnd he has to pay freight on that weight. will the Treasurer say it is fair if only 7 tom are delivered 1

The TREASURER: I say that probably he will not get ~10 tons of maize. You know that shipping companies will not guarantee as to weight,

Mr. PEASE : The hon. member for Toom­bul is behind this proposal. He is not worry­ing his head about the purchaser or the consumer; he is only worrying about the man who sells at his end-the broker, \Vo want to protect the consumer and the man 1vho buys the goods. \Vhat is going to be the position in regard to goods consigned to North Queensland 1 If the goods are not dcli,·Brcd according t.o the accepted weights, then the price goes up, and the consumer suffers. Shipping companies in the past have paid claim~ in rcs]Wct of short weight delivery. Will they pay claims when this clause become& law 1 Thev will not. Tho Government are taking away the protection formerly given to the consignee. The clanse ic an aJ:·oolutdy dangerous one, and I cannot understand tho Treasurer allo,.ing it to go into the Bill. It is not fair.

Mr. II. M. RUSSELL ((l'oorniJul): The hon. n1ernber for Herbert is exaggerating. He knows as well as I do that shipping companies arc not liable as to weights. Every shippins; receipt and bill of lading set& out that. the shipping company is not responsible for the contents of case~. for loss of weight or dct~riorcttion in transit.

Mr. PEASE: Then why put this clause in 1

1\fr. H. j\,L RUSSELL: Shipping cam­paniC'~ are not respmv- ible for loss through pilla~C',, ~'.venting of ~cod~, u1lafr0, detention, lock-onL~. ftrikes, and so on. The ~hipping

rom[)anies rccPive your goods in [8.'\0 !J.m.] good order and condition. and

1 he' :V n1u~t del ivcr tl10 gc ods in a. s1n:!il ~r condition. J£ the goods are inter­fr'rrd oth in trans1t. snpposing <..OQ1C~ of li~tJ cor~tPilts fll'J pillaged, then thr goods ll.:-tYC J;ot orrivcd in tho same gnocl order and ( \Jndition a·~ that in whirh thPv V\C'rB

shipped, and the ship01n1er i,, linble .fer the cln irl1 th:-: L the co>signe,_'3 1ri1l n' '.ke.

l\Ir. J{IR\Y.\!\: \~Y"hat abo~1t. Lbc ca-;c tho other da'. IYhno a >hip hc.d to utilicc et c·n.r('"O of J1f''lnnt-s for fu0lling purpo-;cs bcraus'J i ho · npply of fuel wa· cxho.nsL·d? (Laugh­ter.)

r\; r. H. :' r. E US3ELL: If the ship did not d' ]j,·0r the (_ 1rgo. then iho shippine· com­p: ny would haYe to pay for it. The non.

!Sea Carriage of [l OcroBEH.] GQods (State) Hilt. 1333

member for Hcrbert does not think that the shipping company can be made responstble for the contE'nts of rasrd t.trgo?

:Mr. PE.\SE: This is talking about bulk <·argo.

l\Ir. H. J\I. RUSSELL: Thi" clau.o is not dealing \Yit1! the type of ca;·go mentioned b~- the hon. member. The shipping corn­panic;;; p1y lf~gitimat.e claim::; if it can b.c 11rOYed that the -clanns ha\~C bcrn necessi­tated through the negligence of the shipy,ing con1pany.

JrL·. PF.\c:;~: AHd : vn arc taking a,,yay that prot1·ci ion lr7 1·his clause.

1-·fr. II. ?cl. RUSSELL: Xo. 'Ye are giving· '~·~·enter pri,·ilcgr's under +-his Bil: par •r .. s to-day, because under the

· can clalrn for lo~ ~t "\vithin to .. cla: they arc expected to

nt ~hips' ta.cklc.; nd no claims against the f:hip}Hng cornp~:11ic

;-·1 !tcnYat·d~. rrhc shipping CGlnpa.nit ., hn:n: u <'(1 thtJ:- pO\Yl'l' \ ~ ry arbitraril,y in the past.

).ll·. POLLOCK: '\Yhat \YOUlcl hulk cargo 'be ender this clause?

:'>Il'. H. }1. HTSSELL: Cargo<·' eA gr.1in. de. It would not appl,. to packnges. as L1tcd by the hon. member for Herbert. As

usual, the hon. memb0r is barking Ull the ·wrong tl'f'P.

Clanse 7 agreed to. Clansr, 8·-" Satin(! "--·agreed to. c\ t. 8.32 p.m.,

).[r. l+llD!STO::\E (Stanl< y), on~ of the p~nel o[ Temporary Chairmen, relieYecl the l hnirman in the chair.

•· 'l'lu· Sf'!udalf~Rulc:J t'clutinrJ to bif1f!. of f,ulin,r; ''- ·

:\lr. PEASE (Huurrt): Claus•c 6 of Arlicle III. reads-

" lJnle:-<s notice of loss or dan1age and t.he general nature of such loss or damage Le 5iYcn in writing to the carrier or n:is <' ~ent at the port of djscharge before or at the time of the remo.-al of the goods into the custod v of the nerson {:ntitlecl lo cleli.-en- thereof uncl~r the c·ontract of carriage. or, if the loss or dan1,2gc ho not apparenL, ·within thre(\ da ...-~, such re1110Yal ~hall be prim 1 faciP ,,ndpn~P of the deliverv by the carrier of the goods as ck,cribeci in the bill of lading."

\Yt• do r:ot think three davs is sufficient. '.f.hc hon. nwmber for Toowoo'inba will apprc nate. thr fact that, if he wen, landing a big ~·on.3rgnrncut of draper;· in Brisbane, hn could not get his goods into the "-"n•house v,·ithin three da) :-:>.

~Ir. \XX.-\XD: I (an do it \Yithin four hours.

)fr. l?EASE : That i~ r11ore than the rnan out \Vo,o;:.t ClH do. Further in connection 1riih goods f1·om ovt..•rsea vess~ls it takes seyen d,t~,' to get tho,e goodo from TownS\·i1le to Irmisfail.

:\Ir. PE,\ SE: Ewn three days is not long {•nough. Does the Jcrovision of three clays mcun three davs after the aniYal of the ~~,Joc1s n t the stOre?

:\fr. ANXAXD: Yes.

:\Ir. PEASE: That is fair. We know chat c·ertain ovcrsea shipping connHtnies insert an nrlvPJ'tisoment in the press 'on the clay on

"hich a ship anives that the goods are antilablc at the rick of the consignee·, and tlwt there is no fm·thcr risk once the good' .. u·o discharged. If thi::; proyision rnoans thtoe cH\vs from the time of lhe arrival of the goods ut the store, then that is quite all right.

~ir. ANNA~.;D: Three days after tho .arrival of the ship.

:\lr. PE:\SE: Hm· will tlnt affect the arriYal of gcocls at \Vint.on, nway out \Y('St '' T'ho hon. lDf'nlbcr for r1lOO\\'OD11lbn S.J id thl·- e dJvs uftcr arriv tl in tbe \Yhcrcycr it ~>H;:y be. H it i thrc·'l dn-- ·'f arrintl of the. ship. then Vi u nnF-1: 1;ur Ul' DtU' atnPnd­rnent. Gvods arc ~hipped to

place"

~Il'. AK~AXD: TlH) a~ont \vill "'-rrangu c· 11 that.

~\lr. PE .SE; Our snu·gcstion ]::; to n1ake it ::;.{'';('11 da_-,-s, in3tf'-aJ of thn '; dny:-'i. rl'he c lirns 1] arbour Board allov.'s consigllCC':5 in the cul}ntry fourt·:en day,,' free storus,; on the wharf in Cairns, rcali~in;; that the~- are at a. '"rent disadvanta«e. The board also allow~ ~ev~--n days' freen stor-~go for consignees in Cairns. Very often a ship has not discharged the• whole of her ca;·go within l'lweo days of hfT arrival, nnd your particular f·ase ntav bo the last to cume out on tlw ihircl day: ,,·hich is not fair.

The ~[lREASURER. Three dav aftci' any particular line is di. charged. ·

::\Jr. -PEASE: 'Ihr,.,t is not suffic{cnt for countrv centres in Nort'h Qucerhland .. ~lthoug·h it may be all right in Brisbane'.

The PRE:\ll.ER: The "hipownn could not take tho risk of three day,s after arriYal of goods at their destination.

}fr. PE..:-\..SE. \Vc arc asking that it bf~ rnade scYen day.s inst'('ad of threo days. Tho hem. member for 'roowoomba talked about aer.ent:-; but s:orne pcoplP cannot affot·d agents. The o\vner ruay send the shipping receipt ttJ

a friend and ask hin1 to take dcliycry. Tho11 ir. n1av t:tkc hvo or three daYs hPfore thP shippii1g receipt is rcc('iYecl at· a place like Atherto11. Tho stcurner carrying the goods may also bring the bill of lading·. The bill of ladinO' is then <::ent to Athcl'ton, and 1t n1a\ be tluce da \ s lwforc it even get.'· there. Ou~to a lot of ovCr~cas goods aro transhipped ii1 Brisbane for Town~ville and Cairns~ and ih2 bills of ladin2; ·do not reach the o"vners ·within three days of arrival. I ~uggest that tlw amendment i-; a l'Pft:·Onab]P on<'. Thf , . ., i·; 1oot much diffcrenep bet.· ·pc•n three day; Rnd sm·en clavs, bnt it \VO!lld certainly be a re asonablo alfo\YaJJCC. The pillage of good~ }.;; a f'f'rious n1attC'1' for, say, a draper in Athorton. Innisfail. ancl other such places. aLd surelv there can be no harm in making it sryon ciavR. It i all right for Too~yoonli~a and nlaccs ~likP thnt, but tht> conditions arr~ n0t fhc smne in I'\orth Queensland. Throo t1Lvs vi·ouid not be ~nffici -111t. for instance, iu ~the Tullv rtl'Cll, or in tht> C)untrv outside Cairns-out· at Forsavth and othel· centres liko that. The Cain'·, Harbour Board con­siders that the country people are ontiiied to sC'Yen C'Xtra dft.' ~,' consideration.

The l'RE\l!Ell: \Y,• do wnut the record ovc·r nrcl OYf'r ~-l.!:;.ain: Wt' h'lYP had it fivr• times tlll'('[ldy.

M1-. Pease.]

3334 Sea Carriage of [ASSEMBLY.] Goods (State) Bill.

Mr. l'EASE: 'fhooo country people lose tbt"' nroncy. and not the hon. gl'n~lenlan---­they are the people_ we _arc fightmg fo~·­Thc fact that the l'renncr says there 1s

::.-·,oinething in the argun1Pnt---Th0 Pun!IER: I ck net.

::Y1r. PFJ.ASE: ThP Pren1icr has no sensf' of fairnr'fl':: ju~t at prc,-;ent. The GovPrn-1·1P!It place people a.\Ya:-· in tho {'Onn~ry. and then make them 'llffer all these chsach·an­Llgc~.

The' PRE}l!£a: \Yhv ,!id you lea Ye the n1a th•r for fourteen y0ars ·:

l\fr PEASE: That has nothi11g to do , , ith ·the 1nnitc:;,·--\YC ncYcr put a clause like this in a llJC<<.:::nrc. This Bill is going to nrotect thr• great shipping n10n----thc• pcoplt~ e-cho ftnd the mOllC\' f ,r the Couutry and Nat1onalist Part"'.~. ~ The Governrnent say they arc shndin.(i for the don;lopment of the- co'J.nb·:; ; but- th0y arc eJ~owing b:.T their ~H::tion tlwt- thev do not care a hang for the2n peoplP~ ,,;ho lun-c gr:1e out pioneey­-ing} :i_nd hn.Yo rnade it possible for people 111

the tovvn to exist. The PnE~UER interjected.

Mr. PEASE: It i.' all wry well for the hon. gentlen1an to intPrject here, but he tells the people wlwn ho ~oes to Athertt:m how hi-; heJ.rt bleeds fo1· them. yet he w!ll not give them any pretc,ction. I bog to 1~1ov· · the follo-...ving c:uncnchncnt: ~

" On pa~c 4, line 26, Article III. clans(' L. omit the 'Yard­

' three' and insert in lieu thereof the \\ ord--­

• seven.' "

Mr. l'OLLOCK (Gr£(/ory): I do not ;vish to go over the argUJ?l~mts of the Deputy Lcad<'r of the Opposition; but there are quite a number of Jl<'Ople who would be unable to examine their ~oods within three days of the discharge of the cargo by the ship. That is obvious; fo~ instance, people '· ho live in the country m such places as Camooweal, Urandangic', and Boulia.

A GOVERNMENT }lE}IBER: \Yhat about • \lice Springs?

Mr. POLLOCK: Arc tlwsc> places of no eonscquPncc? This \Vas ahvays a mattcl' of arrang·en1ent. :'ow wo are providing legislation to coyer the arrangc1_nents wh~ch were agreed upon 1nutual1y pnor to th1R; and it is a fair thine; that wc should make arrangcm£>nts for thC pr·opic living in the ,.ountrv. I have no fear of hon. 111Clnher:" opposite ~nc·pring at people who IiYe out West-they arc the people who have made 'his country. They are the pec;plc who. prior to the shnnp in wool pncc", pa1d about 40 per cent. of the income lax of the State. The Country P<ti'ty, of all parties. composed of members like the hon. mem­bers of Port Curtis ancl Too•.womba. cught at least to havn ·OD10 considc~rat1on for the people "·hose lot is not cast in the pleasant surrounding·s o i: clty chvC'llC'rs. If \YC assurne that the Premie•·'s arpunent is correct, then '.YP a-c ,nn1e that the n1an who is baYing goods dc1ivcn d to him hem th0 ship has ai~ a~Pnt; bnt all shrpper:; have not got an agent. Son1c p~oplc who ship their goods dircrt have made other arrang-ement~. Suppose they had an agent .. does cv0r.y agent examine <Lll the goods sh1pped to h1s custom0r wh(~n taking delivery?

Mr. H. l\1. RussELL: Yu. en'ry ag-ent does.

[llir. Pease.

}lr. POLLOCK: 'What nonsen'c! There are son1e goods which from ~heir VE":-\ nature 1t io impossible to <'xanuno. :!\o agent cou1cl examine them, or, if he clicl. he would need to have ten times his present staff. I admit that f'orne ind('nt agents \rho !in~ getting goods fron1 overseas and scnchng them to clients in oth<'l' parts of tho State m a v examine all the cargoes and may be in a position to n1ake a ci~inl in three ~a:·s: hllt poop!<.> -·ho arc havwg_ goods shipped fronl Brisba.IH' to rrovYllSYJllP and fronl there out \Yt"·-t haYP not the tirne to cxm11ine t hc1n. It is no usn H'11ing Ill{' the~, ha n:-. T know they have not.

i\lr. IT. n.i. RtiSSELL: I kno1Y tlH·y ha Ye.

~fr. POLLOCIC : I arn not going· to be bluffed into b lie,-ing; that thev haw. I n <tllv do not belie,-c that Acn,n days arc H~a-ic.ient to rncct sorne ca-~c-;. but that period giyes 2 better opportunity thau three days.

The consignee does not hold hie :"gent responsible for seeing that tho carB>'O slnppcd to him is ali there when taken off the boat. He could not hold him n 'ponsible for that. and agents in place" like 'l'ownsvill_c . ~nd Cairns will not accept that respnnsib1hty. In most cases they mcrd.v make sure th?-t the goods are sent from the sh1p to the rail­way station and invoiced t? the cons1gnee. \\ho is responsible for findmg_ cmt whethe1· everything- he pa,·s for is there. Conse­quently. if he is li,:i~tg a lung way o.ut Wf''5t,

he is not in a positiOn to fiud out m three days. Trains may be .r}clayed.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: If he does find that something is missing, how does he know that the shipowner is responsible?

}fr. POLLOCK: He cannot say that the contents were iost on the railway or the boat. The agent could not tell him that. Apparently hon. member>. would haye the a~cnt examine cYery arhel<' of . >dnch he Mtkes delivery. \Ve know that 1s not ~he case. We say that, if an agent did cxamme the contents of CYery cargo, three days would be ample; but where he does not dc; so, then three days are by no means suffiCient.

The PREMIER (IIon. A. K Moore . .lubiqny): What is the good of the hon. member talking that kin cl of humbug 'i Hon. 1nPtnbers on the other sjde ar0 sirnply getting up and saying what they know is absolute humbug-. Do they want to protect the pe~ple in the country, or do they not? If tr;ey .do, are they protectin~ them by askmg that they shall have s:vcn clap er, a fort­night? What would 1t mea!' : ~\ ould . 1t not mean that, if the ~hippmg compames had to take that extra nsk. they would p>k on more freig-hts. and the people in the countrY would. haYC to pa, tlwm ·1 (Opposi­tion iut~ rrup:ion.) 1lon. JUP1nl rr;). do not think of thnt. For fonrtCPil~ :c0<11':-: th<:_, s~tt here us a GoYLrnnient and did not care b...-o­pcncc about the people in tl1c country. Th{ :l mrne in here when the~· find that the peopl,o in the country arp l:eally beinr; vr~otcetcc1, and lite':- ~hed croco(bJe tc-aL- OYer t110 C'O!ll­

munitics in the W<'st. Did the~· think they \\·antNl protection in tl!e \Vest: when they ~hoved the highest railway rates on them that have ever been irnpo~ed on an:v"' fOln­

lllUnity? Did they .think they wanted pro­t>"ction when thcv p1led tases on them that th~v could not 'bear simplv bcrans_o they thoi>ght they would pay? When th1s mea­s•Irc i" givinO" thetn scmo degree of protec­tion. hOn. ~en1bers opposite ask, ~' ;v~,1 not give them seven days or a fortmgnt,

Sea Carriage of [I OcTomm.] Goods (State) Bill. 1335

!Oppo,Jtion iutPrjcctiuns.) TlH' fad of the matter is that the talk of hon. members on the other side is a 11 humbug and nonsense, and they know it. They are out to make a little political capital out o£ anything tl1~t presents itself. They are so hard put to 1t for something they can take to the country and talk about that they seize upon this sort of thing. (Opposition intPrjcdions.) It i" extraordinary. Far more protcc6on 1s being given to the people in remote parts of the State than thcv ever had before; and because that protection is being giyen hon. members opposite say that it is not enough. or ii: should not be the1·e.

1\Ir. PoLLOl'K: \Ye want to giYe tlwm th0 )arne protection they haxe ab\ a-. A had by ruutual arrangen1cnt.

The PRE?\IIEH: The.• had some protc•c-ion b:v n1ntual arrangen1011t, and navY it is

1n·opo::;cd to giYe then1 g·rcater protection. They will be allowed three dayc; to g;o into this 1na.Uer. ff tbc:'.P p0011le rtrc anxious to 1 )rotcC't thPnlse1Ye~,, then they can get. thPlr friend or their np:ent to look into it.

:Vh-. COOPER : A h. ah !

The PHR:\IIEH.: The hon. Hic-mbcr kno\Y' perfect!)· well thnt. if the g·oocls \Yere going to Boulia or ·cmnclang·Je, probablv tlnec months would he required. lion. rfH'n11lel't' opposite arc talking nonscn:-w.

I\1r. POLLQCK: .. Y,...on are liYinr; 111 the dav~ of the coach an cl horses.

ThP PRE:VllER: I ruu not. I have in mind places that do not enjoy the best means of tramport.

::\[r. \Y. FORGAX S)!TTH: You arc going back to the time of George I.

The PREMIER: Sueh regulations did not <'xist in those clays. Thev have be€'n intro­duced comparati~·ely recently for th<e pro-1ection of the individual; but, when we tn to extend greater protection than they have had for a long· time past. hon. member<· opposite object.

Mr. POLLOCX: You arc only protecting t.be shipo\vners and the indent J,gent~.

The PREi\UER: :'-Jo. The Bill will giw the persons conccrnpd three day~ in which to make a. claim· ·a right. that they do not po~"ess no,v.

Mr. POLLOCK: They had seven clays before'.

:\Ir. H. :YI. RrSSELL: Thcv had no time "t all. ·

Thl' PREMIER: And hon. members oppo­;-;.ite know that_ T t iR all nonsense for hou .. Hletnbers oppo~it0 to clain1 that they arc out to protect tlw incliYidua l that the,· hounded for the j)a~t fourt0Pll ypar~. It is al [ a~n::.olutp 1 nbbi~h. ~

::\Ir. C'OOP.SH (ll,-emr ) : I 'un snrpri,,•d at th0 PI'C'Juic·r':-; lap~c. It ..-:holY~ how qu1dd·. one cnn be corrnptctl by 011u's Sllrronnding~. 'Yhi]st the holL gentleman v~a:-; a gootl ronu­!ry n1cn1bcr, he stuck u 11 ~trong ly for coulltry 1ntcrc::-:i~: Lnt. 1toy· 1 hr:,t he is in the civ. "Hrrounded lr- cit intcre~ts, he imrnediatol~ g]yc.:,: v. a:v to. the~ rit:v interests. Of court-(~. l hre0 eh.~.,-. if' loug criolllfh for thA ritv l11Pr­

r·hant: hut, if the n0on!c iu thn countr: .. 1 ant their goods C'xmni.ne{1. lf't thorn mJgitgf' an agent in tho cit_~ ~ Is it 11ot th0 job of thP country alwcty . ..; to keep the blg· e1ty offirp~ going, giYing t.!wm work? \Vhat ha' the country existed for if it is not to kfecp th<> city going? The Premier is now so obsessed

hv crty interc,ts that he says to the country, .. If you do not hke three clays, then eng·ag·o c1n agent-e~nploy a city agency.'' I-Ias not the city been back! d up by the country all these years? No1v the Premier insists that 1hc co'untry shall keep the city g·oing, as 1!. has done in the paet. I am surprised that., <tfter cightcl'n months' association with the city, the Premier should lose the whole of his associations with the rountrv and beeon1c i1nbueJ with the importanre ~of n1aking the city the only thirg worth while in the State.

:Yir. PEASE (Tlcrbrrt): At the port of C'a irns the people arc allowed ~eyen days, and country pPople are allo-...-ved fonrteeu days in ''· hieh to 1nakc their elain1.

::\lr. H. lll. R c: .. -;ELL : Free sto1·a gc?

::Yh. PEASE: Xo~in which to make a c-laim. I kno'.'. YYhat I am talking about. I ~now that in the Xort.h the consignee ha~ 1 he right. to pEt in a elain1 fo1· pillage right ''P to !ho time that he takH deliYery of the go 0 d .....

The PREoliER interjected.

::\Ir. PEASE: The Premier has actot! R' if he knew nothing abont th0 matter. but the Treasurer should ad in a different \Yav. In ('Onncction with the intcr5tate trade f~ con­,ignee in X orth Queensland has the right to 1nake a claiu1 for pillage up to the time that he takeB the goods awav; and it. is only i11 the case of over:>ea Vf",scls and companie.;.; 1 !1a1 advc·rtisc that goods UlU:':it be lifted by " certain time that the consignees must pro­duce their hills of lading and take delivery of the goods or lose their right to make a claim. The Howard Smith Company, the .\ustralian United Steamship ="avigation Co1npany, and other companies have alway~ allowed seven clays.

~-Ir. H. :\1. H.L'SSELL: Tlwy ha..-c not.

2\Ir. PEASE: You are wrong. ::\11-. H. M. RL',,8ELL: I cap prove it.

)Jr. PEASE: The hon. member cannot ],rove it. 'l'h" Cairns Harbour Board allows the townspeople se,·en dllys and the country 1 •Pop le fourteen days in which to take their t;oods from the wharf, and, if any pilbge has taken plaec. the claims will be recognised if lodged within those times. The hon. I.1cmbcr for Toombul cannoL say anything d"f', Iif~ i5 talking through his neck. The only shlpping con1panics whjch force con­.signPlS to take delivery from the ship's 1 acldn arc ovcrsca con1panies, and not inter­,tate companies. This is a Bill designed to <icrcl with intrastate t1·ack. First of all, we arc told bv 1he hon. m<•mb,•r for Toowoomba that. thrcC d· ~~s' g·racr is nllo\ved after the ~oods are lau(h•d in thP CHlsignec's store bPfort> a c1aim eau be tnadl1 ; but, after ron­'ultation '' ith tlw Tn asm·er, he ·found that he \rft., '.·,TOUg-. T'hcn the P1·omicr displa:.-ed his ignorrHc .. , of th(' :--i1tnut,ion. I contend that tlw ;;hipping COilll'anic;) take rPs1Jon·.ibility for pi1laL .. C until th<~ goods arc t2kcn a.wa:, fl'oJn their wharYe~.

J\Tr. H. M. H.ct:s>-LL: They do not.

~fr. PEASE: The-~ do. I an1 rwopnred to nukc• a l•et on th.c ''ubjcct. The hon.

for Toombul knows rrs wdl as [ do i." 7-irnply bnrking the question, and

shipping companh~s take full rcsponsi­fnr ·'',·en da•;s in 'l'ownsYille and and fouYt(~f'n "dayr:' responsihilit~- in

of countr:· consignees. The shipping r:ompanies accept full responsibility in respect

JJr. Pwse.]

1336 Sea Carriage of [ASSEMBLY.] C/oods (State) Bill.

to pillag0 either in To\vnsvillc: or Cairns so lo11g as the goods arc takC'n out in the tirno allotted bv the harbour board. After the c-~·piratiou'' of se\·en da~<:> iu ro,pect to to·wn good3 and fourteen days in respect to country c:oor!, !he; are removed by the harbour board in Cairns to ~.~-bat is iPrnu•cl the " overtinv~ Rhed": and immc'diatelv that is dorw thr· liahilitv of the shipping company cCJsc~. Hon. !ncmlwrs oppooitc, with their cheap iHl0Cl's, that \VC ,,'Cl'£' in office for fourteen :v·oa i's dld not int.roducc lcgjslation dcalinQ' ·witlt this nluttf'r. There 1:vas no need 'to introduce a Biil to protect con-

as the con:-lignoc \V_;_.:, already pro­but lu thl::; c1_sc the shipping

companic, \vlto find th0 funds for the C:OYClTtlllC:llt JJaYC' told thun what to clo.

::O.Ir. H. :'.L RCSSELL (1'oornuul): I cannot allo"- tho ,,tatoment cf the hon. member for Herbcrt to c·o unchalicllgod. I admit that shipping t Y~Jpanir::; ha ye paid claims, but only ~Ls a nntttr•r of gracC'. 'rho scv8n days' stornge that the hon. nwmber speaks of relatm to !he time that the shipping com­JJanics allov.r consig-nccf: to kcDp the goods in tlwir store'· That practice obtains in Drisbaue. There is l!O lia,hilih on the ship­ping companic--, to pay chims, 'and, although they arc paid. they aro only paid as a matter ot grace. \Yha.t doP"3 a shipping receipt say? It says-

" Received goocb in apparently g"ocl order and condition and all liabilitv to the company to cease as soon as" the goods arc released from the ship's tackle,~."

::\Ir. PEASE: \Vhose bill of lading is that?

Mr. H. :\1. RUSSELL: The Australian ('ni_tPd 8tl'Hlll Xa,-igation Company, Howard 8m1th Company, Huddart, Parker, and Company. MPlbourne Steamship Company, and McTlwraith and :\IcEacharn.

::\lr. PriSE: Read the one from the Aue­·tnlian United Steam ~~n-igation.

:\Ir. H. :\I. RUSSELL ·-" Recei,-ed for shipment subject to

t.crnu:. condi6on,, and excepti(;ns en­dorsed on back hereof and forming part of the contract."

:\Ir. T'EARE: JLJSt read the clause about good order anti condition.

:\1r. H. M. RUSSELL :-" To b" forwarded to "-

Ca lrns. or vduttcver port it is--" and there the owner to take deliver' and a 11 liability of the company to cc asc as soon as the goocL are free from the ship's tackles."

'The hon. member must know. of the cas'' ~vherc ,,_ consignpc sued a ~hipping con1pnnY 1;1 r0specL of a ca:;;p of braces. rrhe I-Iigh

Court lJCld there was no liabilitv [9 p.m.l on the company to deliver th'e

goods exco1)t at ship's tackles. \Ve want to gi\·e the eonsigrH~cs fotno prote~tion ,md allm,- them to submit their claim three ~lays -after th~ discharg·e ~f the cargo. It 1~. an Inl:cr.nahonal regulation, and oversoas bills of ladmg now contain a clause that tht' goods are subject to the British Sea Carriage of Goods Act.

In rega-rd to th0 ~g-ents at varions ports. we know that there B a great deal of trade done by countr,1 centres in rcsp<'ct of goods

[}fir. Pease.

shipper! from Brisbane, Sydney, or l'l1elbourne. There are agents in those ports to take delivery of the good,;, and it is tho duty of the agent irnmcr1iately he take1 delivery of the goods to cxr.minc them. If there is any a11pe:-nanco of ullage or damage, the agent puts in a claint on the shipping corupany.

Mr. PnsE: \Yill you admit that he is nltowcd :-:ovcr1 days'? ·

:\ir. H. :11. RGSSELL: No.

: \Yhat i, the custom?

1Ir. H. :\l. lUJSSELL: It does not n1all ;r -..vhat thl' cL:stom is; it is not tho ]a\Y. The shippillg corupauios have just rccentl:' r~fu:;;rd to pay a clairn for ::.-hortage. rrllt're is 110 obli,t;atiou on their part to take c~uo of tb0 goods rdtor thry have left thl' :,hip's. tackles. \Ve nro proterting the co11~ r-:iguee~ to tbe extent that ~:Yithin three days after tho discharge of the goods any clain1 Hutde by tl101n n1ust bo recognised. \Vhore it is an international l't ~-ulJJ;:Jn, it js irnpos­>iblc for us to alter iL The Goyernment ::re going as far a~ thc~'l can go to afford protrd1on to con:)ignecs tl1at they arc denied 'o-day.

Question-" That the words proposed to Ll omitted from clause 6 of ~'.rticle III. of the schedule (Jir. Pmsc's rm-n>dment) stand part of the clause ''-put: and the Committee divided:-

AYES.~ 3:1. Annand Barnes, G. P. Barnes, W. H. Blackley Boyd Brand Butler Carter Costello Deacon Fry Hill . Jamieson

Dr. Kerwin Mr. ICing l\lrs. Longman Mr. Macgroarty

Mal!er iV!axwell Moo re M organ Nin1mo Peterson Plunkett Roberts Russell, H. M. Ru"sell, \V. A. Swayne Tedman Walker, H.!'' . Walker, J. E. \.Varren \Yienholt

Tellers : Mr. Brand and Mr. Hdl.

NOES.~ 20. :lfr. Barber Mr. Hyncs

Bedford .Jones, A. J. Bow Kirwan llra•3ington Mullan Bulcock O'Keefe Cooper Pease Dash Pollock Dunlop Smith Hanlon Wilson Hanson VVinstanley 'Tellers: :\fr. Dash and Mr. 0' Keefe.

AYES.

)Ir. Ed'ward::. Kenny Kelso Duffy Atherton

P.J..IRS. N"OE3.

!•lr_ Stopford Jones, A. Collins Bruce Conroy

Resolved in the affirmative.

:1\Ir. PEASE (Herbcrt): I bPg to move the follov;ing· an1enchnent.: ~

" On page 5. lines 16 to 18. Articlo lV .. clause 2. omit the words-

' (a) cl. et. neglect. or cl 'fault of the n1aster, znarincr, pilot, or the servants of the can·icr in the navigation or in the Inanagf'tnent of the ship; , "

Sea Carriage of [1 OCTOBER.] Goods (State) Bill. 1337

That is only aggraYating the position we prDviou:Jly raised regarding the unsea­worthiness of the ship. The hon. member for 'foombul made seYcral explanations, and said the matter '' .1s provided for later on; but no" we find that, in addition to hadng an unsec:nrodb:v ship, ibis dau~·.P is cont,ract­ing !lw shipowner out of any liability aris­ing frorn 1 he neglf't"t or default of tho master There is no donht t\,is is ent.in'I. the interests of the sh1p-ning and no onder \vc have thn hon. Toon1bul getting up and trying to confu~·~ tlF· is~ue. I arn 1noving· tho arncnclrncnt to rnnlu~ it quite clear that, when there is a11~· default on the part of the ·!Jrvants of the shipping ccnnpany, the cam­pan:- shall lw liable. _\t prc• cnt you can scud a "coffin" ship to sea, and vou can haY~ _\Jl in· Oll1pCt0nt lTiaster; J'OU can ha.ve servant.-. of tht-~ ·--hipping <:ornlH:tny doing­~ulpablo ac1s. nncl there is no responsibility.

r11n absolutPlv astonished at the Treasurer brin~·ing in suCh a propOf'rr1.

:\Ir. W. FORGAN S?.TITH (Jlackay) : The Treasurer has not indicated his inten­tion to acrept this an1cndn10nt.

TllC' rrnE.bURER: I arn not going to accept lt.

Mr. W. FORGA'\f SYfiTH: That seum to he a stoc-k phrase with the hon. gontle-1nan.

The scho<]ulc states-

. :'\either the carrier nor the ship chall hP responsible for lo s or damag·f-arising or resulting from- ,

(a) \.et, neglect, or default of the n1astcr. 1nariner, pilot, or the servant~ of the carrier in the navigation or in the management of the ship;"

That absolves the owners from ordinarv common law liability. Surely the Ministry are not going to set up a new doctrine in regard to the liability of the employer for the act of his servant? That is what this roall} amounts to. I could understand pro­vision being made for absolving shipowners from liabilitv arising from the perils of the sea or other uncontrollable causes, and I am not objecting to that at all; but in this case the owner is absolved from any li ,bility duo to the neglect of his employees. 'rh<• employer has the right of choice as to ·'<hom he employs. He appoints the captain, the officers, the crew. and the engineers, whose duty it is to take charge of the ship "nd en rt'V out the work incidental to the IJavigatio.n of the vessel. which also carries with it thn responsibility for the carriage and control of cargo on the vessel; yet we <ne' now fLbsolving the employer-the man who hns the choice of whom he employs­-from liability for any act, neglect, or default on the part of his emplovoes. For e':un1ple. deck cargo rnay be cai·ried, and there i5; no rt>spons1bilit~7 on the o\vner under this Bill to see that the goods are properly looked after by his employees. No responsi­bility is taken for pillage. Connivance at ·pillage may be carried on, and is sometimee carried on on boaJ·d a ship; yet the owner is not going to be responsible at all. By i his clause >Ye are placing a premium on cal'elcssncos. and all those things that are eonting·cnt on such carelessness. It is ridicu­lous from eyery point of Yicw. If a con­tractor, for example, contracts to do certain things on this building, and any of his

employees smashed a window, or did some­thing which caused something to fall on the Speaker's chair, the contractor would have to make good the damage caused by his employee; but in this case we are setting up a rw-;,·· pri11ciplo entirely-an entirely \Vrong principle. \\ e arc absolving the employer absolutely and cntirC'ly from anv liability for the neglect of his son-ants. I can under­stand thrt ih connection with shipping we cannot rnako a ::-:hipowner responsible for maUcL. entirely outside his control. such as c;:clones and various other pc'rils of the s :a -wo absolve him from that-but in this cnso we arc absolving him entirely from any liabilit:.- or ncgh'ct on the part of the ofiicers 1:ho aro chosen by him for the positions they ocCllP:V· Tho thiiJg is ridiculous and out­rageous in the extreme, and cannot be justi­fied from any point of view.

:Mr. HANLO:N (lthaca); It is hard to understand the idea o£ the Minister in including this provision in the Bill. It is rather an absurd situation to make the ship not responsible for any act, neglect, or default oE the people responsible for the safet-. of the ship. It is rather strange to note that in a Hill which went through this Jlousr-.. Yt::Sterdav cxactlv the reverse pro­vision v.:as insc-r't~d. Cla~use 24 of the Navi­gation Acts Amendment Bill reads-

" :Not11-ithstanding anything contained in any Act or in any hnv or custom or usage to the contrary, it is hereby declared that the owner or mastec of a Ye'Bel Ychich plies solely between any two or mor0 ports or places within Queensland shall not be exempt from !iabiiitc, fen· anv loss or damage occa­sioned ·bv the f~ult or want of capacity of a pil~t by reason of the fact that the el\lployment of tbo pilot is compulsory."

That' J3ill distinctly provides that for any dmnagc rt-~ulting from any act, neglect, or ddault on the part of ihe pilot, who is com­pulsorily carried. the shipowner shall not .be pxcmpt from liability; yet in a similar B1ll, rclatiug to other classes of shipping, it is cliotincth laid clown that the shipowner shall be exc1~pt from any liability in respect ?f anv act of neglect or default of his own pmd :;;c1~ntnts w-h~nl he engages and retains or di,rharges of his own free will. The two clauses are so contradictory that some ex­planation will be required from the Trea­surer before the Committee will agree to pass tho schedule in its present form. There is no doubt that under this schedule shipowners arn exempted from any possible liability; aud, reading this clause in conjunction ;.v1th others in the Bill itself, one can only conclude i hat' the measure is designed for that purpose. The Bill provide, that the owner shall not be liable for anv unseaworthiness, and the schedule soL o1;t that. he is not liable for any act, neglect, or default of his servants. Such proyisions o:: •ern to }H~ getting a long way fro1n providing for the safe carriage of Q·oods. It seomc; rather to be exempting the ~hipo>Yner from the responsibility for thei·r ,,afc carriage, v;lh~reaA in a previous Bill that rcspnnsibilit y was placed l!pon him.

:\lr. DASH (:llundingburra); A clause of the Bill has already distinctly provided that the owner of a ship shall not be held to warrant its seaworthiness, and now the scht·dule provides that neither the carrier nor

J!r. Dash.]

1338 Sea Carriage, Etc., Bill. [ASSElVIBLY.]

the ship shall be responsible for loss or darnagc arising or resulting frorn any-

"' act, neglect, or default of the master, mariner. pilot·, or the servants of the carrier in the navigation or in the Inan­agement of the ship!'

That is extraordinary in the light of a provision in another Bill which we have been considering, designed to make the shipowner responsible for any damage caused by a pilot, although he is compulsorily carried. I fail to sec how the Treasurer can consistently ini·roduce both Bills. IV e cannot rely much on the information given to us bv the hon. gcntle1nan under the circtnnstancos~

:vir. H. J\I. RusSELL: This applies to goods.

:vl:r. DASH: It does not matt0r. Human life is also im-olved in the ships. The GovernnK·nt arc taking np a ridiculous position in connection \vith this 111atter, especially as ves,ds .,-ill now be permitted w go to Sdt without there being any implied warrant'V of sea\vorthlncss. It is true that the law' provides that vessels shall not be loaded to an extent carrying them below the Plimsoll mark, and that goods must be properly stowed; but unde'r this Bill t.he goods can be stowed without regard to whether they are properly stowed or not.

Clause 2 of this m·ticle of the schedL1le also provides-

" Neither the carrier nor the ship shall be responsible for loss or damage arising or resulting from-

(b) Fire, unJ.:w.s caused by the actual fault or privity of the carrier;

(c) Perils, dangprs, and accidents of the sea or other navigable waters;

(d) Act of God ; (e) Act of war; (f) Act of public enemies; (g) Arrest or restraint of princes.

nilers, or people, or seizure under legal process;

(h) Quarantine restrictions," \V hat more do the shipowners want?

Paragraph (a) of the clause, which the amendment moved by the hon. member for Herbert proposes to delete, is "over the odds " altogether. The Treasurer would be well advised to delete the whole clause, but I hope he will at least see his way clear to accept the amendment.

:vl:r. BHASSIKGTON (JJalonnc) : The principle contained in this schedule IS a dangerous departure from precedent. The Premier talked of his concern for the people \;enera.lly, especially those who were com­pelled to consign goods. It is most unfair to place the couoignor in the position of consigning goods and leaving the consignee absolutely at the mercy of the shipping company.

At 9.25 p.m., ThP TEJ\1POR \H Y CHAIRMAN: Under

the proYisions of SP' sionn1 Order agreed to by the House on 29th Jnl:v last, I shall now leave the chair, and make my report to the House.

The IIouoc resumed. The CHAIRMAN reported progress. Resumption of Committee made an Order

of the Day for to-morrow.

The House adjourned at 9.26 p.m.

[}Ur. Dash.

Days Allotted to SuJJply.