Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

WEDNESDAY, 31 JULY 1872

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

1Iomestead A1'eas Bill. [31 JuLY.] Homestead A1·eas Bill.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.

Wednesday, 31 July, 1872.

Homestead Areas Bill.-Loans Consolidation Bill.

HOMESTEAD AREAS BILL. The SECRETARY FOR .PUBLIC LANDS

moved-That this Bill be read a second time.

He might state, in making that motion, that he should offer some few observations as to the principles of the measure, as it was so long since he had moved the first reading of it, that its objects might not be altogether in the recollection of honorable members, as it was desirable they should be. Before doing so, howeYer, he would like to direct the atten­tion of the House to a few statistics which he had had prepared; because, whcneYcr the land question had been brought forward in the course of debate, great misapprehension had been expressed as to the actual quantity of land open for selection in various parts of the colony-that which remained under the control of the Government; and the quantity in the hands of private parties. He had accordingly had those statistics, from which he would quote, prepared, and they would be found useful for after reference. The figures were as accurate as he could get; although, as they did not come up to the present date, they were not quite correct. He found that the total area of the colony was 434,300,000 acres. The area of the settled districts was 51,488,000 acres, made up as follows :­Moreton,4,800,000; DarlingDowns,3,840,000; Wide Bay and Burnett, 4,512,000; Port Curtis, 8,960,000; Kennedy, 6,528,000; Cook, 16,320,000; North . Cook, 2,048,(00; and Burke, 4,800,000 acres. Subtracting this from the total area, left an area of 382,812,000 acres in the unsettled districts. Of that quantity, 96,049,350 acres were held under pastoral lease, and there was a balance of 286,762,650 acres unoccupied and open to selection under the very easy conditions of the 16th clause of the Land Act of 1868. If honorable members referred to that clause they would see that the terms were very easy indeed; so that, in the outside districts, there was no difficulty at all in selecting land. It was commonly supposed that there was little land in the hands of the Government, but the return would shew that that was not the case,

and that there was in reality no difficulty in the way of a man who wanted to push to the out­side districts, to take up country. In the settled districts, there was open to selection, on the 31st December, 1870, the following areas in each district :-Moreton, 1,994,169 acres ; Darling Downs, fl50,000 acres ; VVide Bay and Burnett, 2,706,979 acres; Port Ourlis, 3,545,600 acres; Kennedy, 4,178,020 acres ; Cook and North Cook, 18,368,000 acres; and Burke, 4,746,000 acres; making a total of 36,188,768 acres. Subtracting from that latter total the area of land selected and purchased during the years 1871-2, there was left about 35,500,000 acres available at the present time. The gross area open to selection in the colony was-unsettled dis­tricts, 286,762,650 acres; settled districts, 35,500,000; total, 322,262,650 acres. 'l'he total area open to selection was equal to six times that of Victoria ; and the calculation shewed that fully three-fourths of the area of the colony was still open to selection. He thought those figures would do away with a good deal of the ignorance that had been manifested on the subject generally, when it was under discussion. He need not go into the subject of the alienation of lands under the Crown Lands Alienation Act of 1868, but suffice it to say that the revenue during the last three years from that source had been increased by £20,000; and that the total land revenue at the present time was, as near as possible, £300,000 per annum. But in the settlement of the colony there had been a tendency shewn to go in certain directions, and it was therefore found that the only way of satisfying the demand thus made was to take advantage of the Act of 1868, by which power was given to the Government to' resume not less than eight square miles of any pastoral runs. It might be said that if that was the case, there "as no necessity for legislation. Experience, however, had told the Government that that could not be done with safety, as the land , could thus be taken up in large blocks for pastoral and speculative purposes; and so, instead of its being made available for settle· ment only, one class of squatters would be substituted for another. 1'he object of can­celling the present leases should be to en­courage the settlement upon the lands of small settlers, and not to substitute one class of squatters for another; as then no benefit would arise. He, therefore, proposed the Homestead Areas Bill which was now before honorable members. The circumstances which had arisen for such a Bill had been more particularly apparent on the Darling Downs-that was, because more land had been taken up there than anywhere else. The reason of that was, that under the old Orders in Council, which most honorable members were acquainted with, one of the provisions was, that during the currency of a pastoral lease, the pastoral occupant alone had the right to buy, and had also the choice of what land he would buy. That was a ma~ter which

79S Homestead Areas l3iti. [.ASSEMBtY.J liomesieaci Areas Bill.

was decided before there was separate go­vernment in this colony ; and, therefore, it was not a thing for which any side of the House could be blamed, if it was wrong. Now, seeing that the pastoral tenants had that power, no one could be surprised that the best of the land was taken up by them; and the result was, .that the best part of the Downs went before there was any legislation at all by a colonial Government. It was a matter which rested entirely with the Imperial Government, and for which the. squatters could not be blamed, as they had the right, when the powPr was placed in their hands, to take advantage of it ;.and if they chose to pay a pound an acre for land, they had every right to do so. Now, the extent of land taken up under that system was more than honorable members were aware of, but still it was only just to those pastoral tenants to say that in that matter they had acted within the law. With a view to shew the extent of land taken up, he had had a map prepared, the various tints of which would shew the alienations under various Acts. [The map riferred to b;y the lwnorable member was laicl on the table qf the Jiouse.] Honorable members would per­ceive by that map that one great reason why there was not plenty of agricultural land on the Downs was that it had actually been bargained away-fairly enough-as between the Crown and the squatters-bargained away, the money paid and the deeds issued. The transactions had been perfectly fair and above board. Again, honorable members would see that under the action of the Act of 1868 other large areas had been alienated, also in a perfectly fair way-the money had been paid, and the land submitted to public competition -and most of those areas had been taken up for bona fide settlement. Naturally, there was not left on the Downs a very large area for settlement, and the consequence was that the Government would have to make more resumptions there, than they proposed to make in other parts of the colony. As time passed on, the people of J~ast and vV est Moreton would want more land, and it would have to be provided for in a similar manner. Then, in the Wide Bay and Burnett district there was plenty. It happened at the present time that there was an exceptional demand for laud around Bundaberg, and the pastoral lessees had proposed to give theirs up volun­tarily, which consisted of' some belts of scrub very suitable for sugar-growing purposes. If the Bill passed, he proposed to put Lhrough all the resolutions which wore on the paper; but he thought it would be unfair to bring them forward until the Bill was passed; as, if he did so, the colony would be rushed by speculators and others from the neighboring colonies, and one class of squatters would be removed to give place to another. It happened at the present time, that on the Downs, the demand for land for settlement had fallen off

- very much; as, every man who had a few pounds to invest, instead of purchasing land

had gone to the tin mines and made a selec· tion there. In East and West Moreton, however, the demand was still large, and no supply had been made to meet the demand. He would now proceed to briefly sketch the objects of the various clauses of the Bill, premising that, in committee, he proposed to insert a few amendments which were neces­sary. He proposed that the areas for home­stead settlement should be proclaimed open to selection at the expiration of thirty days after such proclamation by immigrants hold­ing orders for selection, and by homestead selectors under the Act of 1868. That was desirable for several reasons-principally to render the land safe from dummying. When the Bill was first drawn, it was proposed that they should be open to immigrants under the Act of 1869; but, as that Act had been repealed, that clause would have to be altered. The other provisions, in regard to home­steads particularly, were confined to clauses from No. 3 to No. 7. Clause 3 gave the Go­vernor in Council power to cancel homestead areas in the following way: For instance, supposing the Government found settlement was not taking place on certain areas-that the land was u~suitablo-then power would be given to withdraw such land and put it up by auction ;-land which might not be suit­able for small men with limited capital, but would do for men who could spend a large sum of money in making improvements, such as dams, &c. The Bill would also provide for personal residence on the homestead areas, and not merely residence by bailiff; and he must say that he looked upon that personal residence as the only valuable restriction upon the alienation of lauds by the law of 1868. He also proposed to give power to the Governor to restrict the area taken by the selector; and would, when the Bill was in committee, propose an amendment that would have the eifect of making any person who exceeded the amount allowed by the Act of 1868, pay an additional price for the quantity taken up in excess. That he thought was only fair to the homestead selectors under the Act of 1868. 'l'he idea had been sug· gested to him by a speech made by one of the Ministers in Victoria, in which that ·gentleman had promised his constituents that they should be put on the same footing in that respect. He thought that that was a good plan. There was that also to be said, that in alienating the lands under the home­stead system they were actually giving it away to the selector, and he did not think they were justified in giving it away in larger> areas than was contemplated by the Land Act. If any person wanted a larger area he must pay the ordinary price for it, or something equivalent to it. 'fhat he thought was only fair. Then came the miscellaneous provisions, which were mere matters of detail. 'l'he eighth clause was simply di­rectory that lands resumed should not be available for selection until so proclaimed,

'Elomesteail Areas Bill. [31 JULY.) llomestea,il Areas Bill. 799

The ninth clause was to enable the Govern· ment to enter upon the resumed lands with­out legal process; it was merely a lawyer's clause, and required no further explanation at present. The tenth clause provided that the pastoral tenants should have the right to depasture over the resumed lands until they were actually alienated. Now that he con­sidered was only just, because some areas might not be wanted at all, and then the pastoral tenants would not be disturbed in their occupation of the land. The eleventh clause provided for compensation to be given to the lessee for improvements made by him on lands resumed, in the event of his not exer· cising the right of pre-emption. The rest of the Bill was dissociated from the homestead question, but referred to matters in connec­tion with the management of the lands which had from time to time been pressed on his attention. For instance, the twelfth clause gave power to the Governor to appoint trus­tees, who would have full control over all lands temporarily or permanently reserved. At present the Government had no provision for taking care of the lands in the unsettled districts, but the clauses 13 and 14 would enable the Government to appoint trustees in the matter. When the question of reserves had been before the House, he had pointed out that most of them were perfectly useless, as they were fed off by one or two persons; there being no machinery by which trustees could be appointed. He proposed that such power should be given, and he believed that it would be found very useful, especially in the outside districts, and in camping reserves. The fifteenth clause of the Bill was also in reference to a matter which had several times arrested his attention. At present, there were a number of systems in regard to town and suburban lands. But he proposed by the Bill to give power to the Governor to pro­claim certain town and suburban lands which had been offered at auction but not sold, to be open for selection as country lands. At present, the only way to effect that was by means of the most cumbrous machinery, and so he proposed to simplify it by the clause in the Bill. It was just the same thing, only without the cumbrous machinery. By the sixteenth clause the Governor had power to make regulations. Well, he had gone briefly over the Bill, and he believed it would be found a very useful measure-work well, and meet the requirements of the country exactly ; and, whilst doing as little harm as possible to the pastoral tenant, who certainly had rights, it would satisfy the demand that existed for land by those persons who wished to combine grazing with agriculture. He dared say that, after the Bill had been passed for some time, and the small men were sup­plied, a dem:md would arise on the part of those who wished to commence operations on a larger scale; but it would be time enough to legislate for them when that was the case. In the meantime, the small men

3 D

were the class for whom it was most de­sirable to provide, because they were com· ing into the colony, and, wherever they wero settled down, they were doing well, and pay· ing taxes ; and if they did not succeed, they could go elsewhere, and give place to others; so that settlement was, after all, promoted, for although the small men would take care not to stop if it did not pay them, they would be succeeded by others. He thought the measure was worthy the consideration of the House, and with the hope that it would pass, he would move the second reading.

Jl.fr. 0L.A.RK said that he felt it his duty to move an amendment on the motion of the honorable member the Minister for Lands, which amendment was to the following effect:-

That in the opinion of this House, no measure for providing additional facilities for settlement on the public lands is acceptable to the country that does not provide for the sale of such lauds now under lease in the settled districts of East anrl "\V est M oreton and Darling Downs, in such areas and at such prices and on such terms, as to payment, as are provided by the Conditional Pur· chase clauses of the Crown Lands .Allenatwn .Act of 1868, but subject to the conditions, except as to area, price, and terms, provided by the Homestead clauses of that Act. He did not wish to disguise the fact that, if his amendment was carried, the Bill of the honorable member would have to be with­drawn; and he believed that that was a consummation most to be desired, inasmuch as he considered the Bill one of the most abortive attempts at legislating for the settle· ment of the lands that could possibly have been made. He did not consider it was a Bill that would in any way meet the just de­sire of the country, or the demand which was made for land, and which honorable members were well aware existed to so great an extent. In fact, he could not look upon the measure but as the most retrograde step in that direc­tion, which had ever been introduced into the House. He believed, that when the t1me arrived-and it had arrived-for the Govern­ment to deal with so important a question, it ought to be dealt with in a manner very dif­ferent to that proposed by the present Bill. The time had arrived when the demand for land, for the purposes of settlement, must be met, and it was of no use trying to burke that demand by introducing any half-mea· sures. The Government should have intro­duced a comprehensive land scheme, which the present Bill was not ; and he should, therefore, be very glad indeed if they would withdraw it, although he knew there was little use in his making such a recommendation. By it, the honorable Minister for Lands pro· posed to resume certain areas within the ten­years' pastoral lea8es, and he must say, that the honorable gentleman had not been at all partial in doing so, for he believed that every run on the Darling Downs had been trenched upon. Now, he had no doubt that that would,

800 Homestead .Areas llill. [.A.SS~MBtY.] Homestead .Areas llilt.

appear very attractive in the eyes of some people, and might lead them to imagine that it would have the effect of inducing settle­ment ; but he did not believe that would be the case, from what he had seen of Mr. Coxen's report, as that proved that the greater portion of the land proposed to be resumed was perfectly worthless for the purposes of agricultural settlement. He could speak con­fidently as to his own district; and he could say that he knew perfectly well that the Bill would not satisfy the requirements of his constituents. They wanted land on which they could settle and make a living, and not land upon which they would starve ; and he maintained that it was the most short-sighted ' policy on the part of the Government to pass a measure which would be the means of open­ing up country for settlement, upon which it was well known that the people could not do well. There was no occasion to theorize­people were no longer in the dark as to what could be done and what could not be done on the land. Experience had taught them under what circumstances farming could be made a profitable pursuit in the colony, and he would state most unhesitatingly, that if the Bill passed it would prove a most utter failure, as it would be the means of opening up only those lands which would be the ruin of those people who settled upon them. It was pretty well known now, that what was termed farming in this colony­grain growing-would not itself pay, unless a man could combine with it other occupa­tions. There was no mistake about that, although he knew that there were people who, for the sake of getting the land open, exaggerated very much the profits of farm­ing ; he had, however, grown grain crops, and had lost money by them, so that he was in a position to give an opinion upon them. He would say most unhesitatingly that no person in the Australian colonies could expect to do well and prosper as a farmer, so long as he confined himself to growing grain crops only. There was, he would confess, a faint show in the Bill for giving areas, which would allow of the combination of grazing with agriculture, but the areas were so ridi­culously small that they were not worth talking about, and he would not, therefore, go into the question any more at the present time. The failure of grain crops applied more particularly to this colony, as the seasons were most uncertain ; and in his district, which was supposed to be one of the best in the colony, it was quite uncertain whether a crop would pay ; the people, there­fore, in that district demanded that the lands should be opened in such a manner that they could obtain a sufficient area to enable them to combine stock-keeping with farming, by which they would always have a supply of manure for their land. Without that was done it would be perfectly useless to give them land, even if it would grow crops at ;first in small quantities ; for unless, as he

said before, a farmer could keep stock, he must not only ruin the land, but himself too. In fact, he had no hesitation in saying that the inducements that the Bill held out to small settlers was a delusion and a snare, and was no settlement whatever of the demand for land. It might put off the evil day for a short time, but it would be for only a very short time. At all events, he was sure that no practical man would be deceived by it, and he believed that no amendment of the land question should be brought forward except as an amendment of the Act of 1868. With regard to that Act, he might say that he had heard it very much abused by that House, and termed a mass of contradiction ; but not by the men who framed it: and he believed that the men who did frame that Act were, at least, the equals in intelligence and ability of any honorable members in the present House. He believed that it was a wonderful Act in itself. He did not, for one moment, mean to say it was faultless, but considering the number of in­terests it had to protect, and, at the same time, open up the land for settlement, it had answered admirably. He contended that no Bill should be introduced for the settlement of the people on the lands, unless it was an improvement on that .A.ct ; and certainly the present Bill was not an improvement on it. Any new Bill on the question, he thought, should settle at once and for ever the land question in the unsettled districts, otherwise it would be everlastingly cropping up. Now, he was very much afraid that the Bill of the honorable member was not what it professed to be ; he was very much afraid that it was intended to throw dust in the eyes of the people ; but he could tell the honorablc Minister for Lands that if such was the case, it would not have the desired effect, if he (Mr. Clark) could help it; as he would take care to enlighten them upon the subject; and he would not leave one part of the Bill without exposing it. It appeared to him that the people said they wanted land ; and the Government replied, "Why, here you are, we will give you land for nothing if you will go and live on it." That was what the Bill said, and, no doubt, it was giving the land for nothing; because sixpence an acre for five years, or two and sixpence an acre for land they could sell for ten shillings ; and ninepence an acre for five years, or three shillings and ninepence for land which they could sell for fifteen shillings, was virtually giving it away. Well it was attractive, and men might go and settle upon the land under those terms ; but what would be the result P Why let anyone look at Mr. Coxen's report, and if that was to be believed, they would see the result-why, that only a very small portion of such land was fit for agricultural settlement, and was such as to suit those very men who demanded it. No doubt there was a large number of men who had such a fever for land that they would naturally go

Homestead Areas Bill. [31 JuLY.] Homestead A'!'eas Bilt. 801

and rush to those places thrown open by the Bill; but the result would ·be, that after a very short time, they would have to abandon them, as it would be impossible for them to live upon them. Now, he contended, that it was not right to delude those unfortunate persons with the idea that they were taking up land on which they would do well, when it was known per­fectly well that they would not. It struck him that the Crown lessees had had a good deal to do with the framing of the Bill, and that it had been framed so as to be as little obnoxious to them as possible-in fact, he believed they had been talked to in such a way as the following; "Well, you must part with some of your land-the public cry can· not be bur ked-how are you to settle it? " That was how it was done. '\V ell, eight square miles had been taken from each of the runs ; because, according to the Act, the Govern­ment could not take less-but what sort of land did they take off? Let any honorable member look at Mr. Coxen's report, and they would find that there was very little agricultural land, and that most of it was pastoral and no water. In most cases there was no agriculturalland whatever; and where there was water the land was not fit for agriculture. Now he would just read down a few of the resumptions, to shew the nature of the land that was to be opened for agricultural settlement:-

Green bank Run-S square miles ; pastoral, no water.

Rosalie Plains Run-S square miles ; agri­cultural and pastoral, no water.

Jimbour Run-5,2SO acres; pastoral, no water.

W arra W arra Run-S square miles; pas­toral, no water.

West brook l~un-St square miles ; agricul­tural, no water.

South Talgai Run-St square miles ; pas-toral, very bad, no water.

He need not trouble the House with reading through the whole list, but those cases he had read were about the character of the country it was proposed to throw open for agricultural settlement. In fact, it read almost like the :first number of a "Queens­land Punch," that the honorable Minister for Lands should say that in order to encourage agricultural settlement, "'\Ve are going to give the people lands without water, unfit for agriculture, and, in fact, very little use for anything at all." The South Talgai Run he knew himself very well, and it was exces­sively bad land indeed. Now, he believed there was a great mistake being made in cutting out those selections from the pastoral leases. He believed that if the pastoral tenants went to that House with a fair pro­posal to give up their ten years' leases, they would get far better terms, than by trying to push forward such a measure as that before the House. He believed that they should go

to that House and say-" Take our leases, and give us compensation. It is true that you can take them away by resolutions, but we have a moral right to the leases, and, therefore, you give us compensation for relin­quishing them." If they did that, he believed that.the House would aet in a fair spirit, and give them the compensation to which they were entitled ; that "they would have it, at any rate, in the long run. He had no doubt that those gentlemen forgot one thing-that they were only pioneers, and that as squatters they must always give way to the bona fide set­tlers. They committed a great mistake by not giving way at the proper time ; and they would have lost less by giving way than by offer­ing obstruction of every kind to the bonufide settler. He believed that the Crown lessees had done nothing but obstruct settlement­they had enjoyed possession of the lands for a great many years-and no doubt they put it to a very good purpose. He believed that the Bill had been framed simply to please those gentlemen and to obstruct settlement. The best way, in his opinion, would be to re· sume all the land under the Act of 1S6S, one of the clauses of which said that it could only be held under lease until it was required for the purposes of settlement. Therefore, there would be no repudiation at all. There was nothing of the sort-although it was so stated by the honorable the Minister for Lands­that if one squatter was turned out another would go and take his place ; and if ever there was a piece of jargon coined for the occasion, it was that statement of the honorable mem­ber. He never knew an instance where one squatter had been turned out to make room for another, and he maintained that resuming the lands from the Crown tenants and selling them at a good price to bonufide settlers, was very different to taking it away from one squatter to give it to another ; it was merely taking it from one man who did not use it properly, and giving it to another who would make a better use of it. Therefore, the state­ment of the honorable member was a most ridiculous one, and would not hold water at all. He was afraid that all the arguments he could use would fail to convinee those Crown tenants of the mistake they were making. They never had been a wise class, and liad never known what were their true interests. Why, at the very time when they were actually enjoying and exercising the pre­emptive right, they were sowing the seeds of a vast amount of discontent, the effects of which they were now reaping the fruits. That pre-emptive right was a mistake, and it had caused a discontent which had gone on increasing. It was said by the people" that there was one class of men who could get land when others could not, and that created jealousy. He had experienced that feeling himself; and that feeling had most unmis­takably gone on increasing, until now people had ceased to be particular, and said that they would have land somehow or other. N Q

S02 Homestead Areas Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Homestead Areas Bill.

wonder ! But if the squatters had at the time accepted the advice given to them in the old House, about twelve years ago, by Mr. Jordan-namely, to allow the land to be reduced to five shillings an acre, and sold by auction-all the present feeling would have been unknown, and they would have got their runs for less than they could now-a great deal less. The Bill, however, had many other faults beyond those he had already mentioned ; one of which was, that it would place unlimited power in the hands of the Minister for Lands of the day. \Vhy, if the Bill passed in its present form, the Minister of the day would have more power than that possessed by the Emperor of the Russias. By it he would be enabled to declare lands open for sale anywhere-in fact, he could declare free selection all over the colony. He d:id not say that the present honorable Minister for Lands would so abuse such power, but the country had had Minis· ters for Lands who had acted most corruptly -men who had favored their friends and sold their enemies. He did not believe the honorable member would do such a thing­at the same time he would have the power­and as it was not likely he would always re­main in office the question arose, who might follow after him? There might be somebody who would favor his friends, and the Bill would grve h1m considerable power to do so. He maintained that whatever the intention of the framers of the Bill might have been, it would ruin the holders of the ten years' leases. It might, perhaps, have been the intention to preserve them, but from what he knew of the colony it would ruin the holders of those leases. He would suppose, by way of illustration, that a homestead area was taken up on a run on the Downs-as most honorable members were aware, the runs in that district were fenced in-and he would like to know what would become of the sheep on those runs when men took up selections on that area, and broke down the fences, as they would do ? Why, the result would be, that the lencmg would be useless, and the squat­ters would have to go back to the old system of shepherding. Again, he need not tell any old sheep farmer that, for sheep to do well, they must not be disturbed, and so conse­quently the whole value of that lease would be d~stroyed. That 'Yas the practical way of lookmg at the question. Besides that, the Bill would have the effect of inducing people who lived in towns, who had always the idea of owning a small piece of ground, and who thought they had only to own it and become farmers, to Immediately become rich­it would have the effect of inducing those people to rush upon the land without any means to work it; and he did not think that any inducements should be offered by the Government to men to ruin themselves. He believed that the owners of the ten years' leases would be far better off i£ they would accept his suggestion, and throw up those

leases, relying upon the justice of Parlia­ment for the compensation to which they were entitled. He thoroughly believed that the proclamation of those areas would be the thin end of the wedge, and that directly one area was taken up, another would be pro· claimed. He would be sorry to see men who had spent a great deal of money in pastoral pursuits, ruined. If it did not ruin them, the result of the Bill would most certainly be the destruction of the ten years' leases ; whereas, if those leases were resumed at the present time, and the owners of them went down to that House for compensation, they would get it. He did not suppose that any­thing he could say would alter the opinion of the Crown lessees, as he knew them to be rather a stiff-necked generation, and one that would have their own way; but he had no hesitation in warning them that they would find out their mistake, and that the people to whom they wished to appear to be so remark­ably generous would soon find out that they had not been so, and would turn round upon them, and demand a great deal more. There could be no doubt whatever that if those Crown lessees endeavored to throw dust in the eyes of the people, and gave them stones when they asked for bread, the people would turn round upon them, and they would bitterly regret it. That had been done else­where, and what was there, he would ask, to prevent it from being done in this colony P He had no doubt that if the Bill passed, the next move would be free selection all over the colony, and he certainly was not in favor of such a result as that. He had no doubt that when the people found they had been taken in, they would-not being aware of the injuries of such a system, but believing that it would be to their benefit-insist upon having free selection all over the country. It was not his intention to go through the Bill clause by clause, as that would be done in committee, if the Bill passed its second reading; but he hoped that when the Bill was in committee he would be able to cut it about in such a way that the honurable mem­ber who framed it would not recognise it again. He thought that the one most objectionable part of it was, that it gave such enormous powers to the Minister for Lands ; by it, in fact, he had unlimited power; and he did not think it was fair or right to the Minister himself, or to the country, that he should have sueh power. Now, his amendments meant, that the settled districts should be opened in the same areas as under the Act of 1868, and at the same prices ; the only difference would be, that the condition, which the honorable member the Minister for Lands had himself admitted had been the cause of the success of the homestead clauses-namely, bona fide residence-would be adopted. Now, there was no doubt that the great fear which possessed the minds of honorable members on both sides of the House, that the lands would be dummied, if opened up under the

Homestead Areas Bill. [31 JULY.] Homestead Areas BiU. SOS

Act of' 1868, would be done away with by his resolutions. It was well known that under that Act any one could get as much land as he pleased; but, if his amendment was adopted, it must be admitted, even by the honorable the Minister for Lands himself, that no dummying could possibly take place, and, consequently, any settlement on the lands would be bond fide. He proposed the areas mentioned in his amendment, for the simple reason that he believed nothing less would suit the requirements of the peoplP. He knew his own district, and of that he could speak with certainty, at any rate ; but he did not profess to know much about East or \Vest l'l'ioreton, where sugar growing was carried on, and where less areas would consequently suit the requirements of the people. At any rate, the areas proposed in the Bill would not suit the people on the Darling Downs. He did not think that any alteration should be made in the Act of 1868, unless it was an improvement on that Act ; and, certainly, restricting the areas under that Act could not be termed an improvement. That Act, which had been so much abused, had, he considered, done wonders in the way of settlement. He would, with the permis­sion of the House, quote a few figures to shew what it really had done ; and, after that, he did not think that any honorable member would get up and say that it had not been successful. After the Act had been three years and ten months in operation 2,140 homestead selections had been made, and 10,700 people were settled upon them. Up to December last, 2,718 conditional selections had been made, and 8,395 persons were settled upon them, or in all 19,095 persons. Now, he did not think that any honorable member could point to any other Act that had been passed in the colony which had accomplished anything like that. It was, therefore, he thought, rather short-sighted policy on the part of the honorable the .Minister for Lands to introduce a measure which proposed any amendment on that Act, which vvas not an improvement on it. There could be no doub~ whatever, that the Act would not have worked so satisfactorily as it had done in promoting settlement, had the areas been circumscribed to smaller limits ; the success was created no doubt by the fact that every man who wanted land, whether he was a small man or a large man-and he used the term large in reference to those men who were dreaded by the squatJ,ers, because they wanted to keep a few sheep-could get land by it ; and it was that class that he would endeavor to settle upon the land. He could speak with confidence of his own district ; and he would trouble the House with some figures shewing the settlement which had taken place on the resumed half of Rosenthal run. That was inferior country -second class country-and yet there had been an immense deal of settlement on it, in ft~et, the whole of the resumed half was i

at present in the occupation of bona fide settlers.

'l'he SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS : Dum­mying .

.Mr. CLARK thought the honorable member would find some difficulty in giving the House a definition of what dummying was. The honorable member had read all the Acts; but he believed the honorable member would be unable to say what the various land pro­elamations meant, so greatly had they clashed, or what dummying was. He did not believe that there was a man who had been in a court of law could say what it was. There was no doubt people had come from other colonies and .had succeeded in amassing large quantities of land, and had evaded the law of the colony shamelessly; and although some men in the colony might have done the same, still, most of it had been done by people from Victoria. Un Rosenthal, which he would take, as it was a place by itself-not one single acre had been dummied by anybody, but a large number of settlers had been established there, who were at the present time running cattle and sheep upon it, and were advancing their own prosperity and that of the country. He thought the House would be astonished to hear that upon that resumed half, there were no less than 26,900 sheep, and 1,200 head of cattle. Those might appear very small numbers for gentle­men who were large squatters to look at, but he could tell them that there were a great many families supported by ~hat stock ; and, what was more, doing very well by it. One man had 7,000 acres of land, and 3,100 sheep; another, 1,000 acres, and J 00 head of cattle ; another, 320 acres, and he also had cattle, and so on, through a long list he had in his hand. The largest number of acres held by any man or family, was 9,500, and upon that there were 4,000 sheep and 300 head of cattle. The holdings ranged from 320 acres to 9,500 acres, and the number of sheep from 500 to 4,000. In all 67,800 acres were taken up for bond fide settlement. He thought that those facts established what he had stated-that those men did succeed, and that those were the class of men who wanted more land, and whom it was a great mistake to keep from off it. They were farmers and graziers as well-a most desirable class of men to have in the colony; but if they had been tied down to such small areas as were proposed by the Bill, they could not have succeeded as they had done. It was only the other clay that he went over some land, on which he saw some fine crops, from which the owner told him that he expected to do well. Many of those men supplied the towns with cheese and butter, and did well by so doing; whereas, if they had been bound down to small areas, they would ha\·e done nothing at all. He did not wish to detain the House longer, exeept t say that h~ had explained his amendment, which, if carried, would necessitate another

904 Homestead .Areas Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Homestead .Areas Bill.

Land. Bill ; and he had no doubt that if the honorable Minister for Lands would try it after his own Bill was shelved-he would make it much better than the measure before the House. The honorable gentleman was capable of persuasion, and he had no doubt that he could produce a good Bill. He be­lieved, however, that the plan he proposed in his amendment was the only successful one for securing settlement on the lands.

Mr. GRIFFITH said he had not intended to speak on the subject at all, but he considered that the amendment which had been pro­posed by the honorable member for Warwick was of sufficient importance to warrant some discussion, and he would therefore offer a few remarks upon it. He did not agree with the amendment of the honorable member, although he agreed with him in the principle it enunciated. He did not agree with the honorable member in believing that all the principles it sought to affirm could be intro· duced into the present Bill, and thought that much more could be done in the direction desired by the honorable member, than by passing a resolution which would really have the effect of shelving the:Bill of the honorable Minister for Lands. He quite agreed with the suggestion of the honorable member, that as regarded all the land to be resumed in East and West Moreton, and on the Darling Downs, conditions of residence, and of making improvements, as under the homestead clauses of the Act of 1868, should be attached. The effect of the amendment would be, however, that if the resolutions of the honorable Minister for Lands, which were now on the paper for the resumption of portions of' the runs, were passed, in the majority of' instances the lands so resumed, could be swalMwed up by one or two persons ; and the good which would otherwise arise from the resumption would be defeated.

HoNoRABLE MEMBERS : Hear, hear. Mr. GRIFFITH thought that if they com·

bined the principle of personal residence with the homestead clauses, with limited areas, they would be doing a good deal to promote settlement. The present Act would do it, but not to the proper extent. He had heard a great many persons who were well capable of judging, say, that the maximum of 320 acres ·was too small, and the fifth clause of the Bill confined the area of pastoral land to 320 acres ; but if it was smaller than that, it was quite obvious that it would be useless.

Mr. GRAHA.M said he was in favor of the Bill, coupled with the resolutions on the paper; but it seemed to him somewhat ridiculous on the face of it to propose to cut off small portions of and from a number of runs in certain districts, to be disposed of in the way pro­posed by the :Bill. The resolutions seemed to be much of the same kind as those that were brought forward by the honorable mem­ber for Wide Bay, for the resumption of portions of certain runs in the Wide Bay and Burnett district ; and the argument advanced

against the proposition of the honorable member then was, that it would be wrong to take land from one squatter and give it to one who would virtually be another squatter. Well, he fully agreed that it would be alto­gether wrong in principle to deal with the lands of the colony in that way. It also appeared to him that there were not now any lands open for selection on the Darling Downs ; and, if that were the case, what was the use of the resolutions, seeing that further settlement in that district would be impos­sible? The honorable member for \Varwick had maintained that the small areas proposed could not be profitably worked, even on the rich lands of the Darling Downs ; and in the East and West Moreton districts such small areas would be comparatively useless ; and, a short time ago, when he (Mr. Graham) was down in the Logan district, he was told by several experienced agriculturists that anything under 640 acres was too small to enable a man to carry on agricultural pur­suits successfully. In districts in the in­terior, because of the greater distance from markets, and also the greater difficulties in every way that had to be encountered, larger areas ought -to be provided. He had heard it stated that many persons had taken up lands on the Darling Downs-and large quantities of the best lands in that district­under what was known as the" dummying" system, and that persons of ample means had not scrupled to take advantage of that system in order to obtain possession of land in that quarter. There had for a long time been rumors current to that effect, and which were a byeword and a reproach to the whole colony; and he was surl?rised that steps had not been taken before th1s time by the parties themselves, who were named or indicated as having been concerned in this system, to have the matter cleared up, and to have it proved if the aspersions were untrue ; or that the Government, if it had been done by suborna­tion of perjury, had not taken some steps in the matter, in the public interest. He thought it was a disgrace that those rumors should have been allowed to be circulated over the colony without anything being done by the Government to have them proved or disproved. If the persons who had resorted to dummying had done so because of some flaw in the Act, he would not perhaps have been inclined to have blamed them so much, because the fault would have lain, in the first instance, principally with those who agreed to the passing of the Bill ; but if not, and if it was done in subornation of perjury, then it was the duty of the Government to have taken some steps in the matter, in order to have checked the spread of such a scandal as against the colony. He would repeat that some steps should have been taken by the Government, either to have the allegations that had been made substantiated, or to have had them disproved, and to punish the offenders where the charges were sustained

Homestead A1•eas Bill. [31 JuLY.] Homestead Areas Bill. 805

As he did not believe that it would be individually beneficial to persons to take up bits of runs in the way proposed, he would support the amendments of the honorable member for Warwick.

Mr." MILES said he would support the amendments of the honorable member for \V arwick, as he thought they would effect a great improvement in the Bill. He must say that he looked upon the Bill, as intro­duced, as being one of the most objectionable measures that had ever been brought into the House. The honorable the Secretary for Lands proposed to give himself most extra­ordinary powers. He proposed, for instance, to resume 2,560 acres of land out of any run in certain districts, and then, immediately, that he had done so, to apply the provisions of this Bill to the lands he had so resumed. He would ask, why did not the honor­able member come forward at once with a measure proposing that there should be free selection over the whole of the unalienated lands of the colony, instead of asking that he should have power to resume a portion of the run of any lessee who might have given offence to the Government, and to de(}lare it open to free selection? Now, he thought that the difficulty could be very easily got over by providing that there should be free selection over the whole of the settled dis­tricts of the colony; and he thought that a proposition of·that kind would also meet the object of the honorable member for vVarwick in bringing forward his amendment. For his own part, he would not object to see free selection over the whole of the unalienated lands of the colony ; but, as they could not get that, he thought they ought to have it within the settled districts. He quite agreed with the honorable member for W anyick, that the proposal to limit the areas to 320 acres would be quite a farce ; and the report with respect to the lands held under the ten years' leases which might be resumed, shewed that those lands were suitable only for pastoral purposes, and not very well adapted even for that, for they were mostly very badly watered. Now he might as well say at once, that when•he heard the commissioner was to be sent to the Darling Downs to select land for this purpose, he thought there was something going on behind the scenes ; and for his own part he was some­what impressed with the belief, that the Bill now before the House was~ submitted to the squatters on the Darling Downs before it was finally decided to introduce it into that House. He believed that if it were passed in its present shape, they would see that hardly a single acre of land would be taken up as homestead areas, on the Downs, especially if the maximum was not extended. He did not think it would be found in the majority of instances that the squatters would object to the lands being taken up by bona fide settlers for the purposes of agriculture ; but

they' would decidedly object, and he must say he thought very properly so, to the land being taken up in a way that would simply amount to giving it to some one else for squatting purposes. He believed that the greater por· tion of the land on the western side of the Main Rangt>, was only fit for grazing pur­poses ; and therefore he would move in com­mittee, that so far as selections there were concerned, the maximum should be extended to 2,500 acres. Though he objected to the Bill, he would not like to see it thrown out, because he believed it might be ad­vantageously amended in committee-that, in fact, it might be so amended as to obtain all that was desired at the present time. He certainly must repeat his objection to granting so much power as the Bill proposed to give to the Minister for Lands, no matter who might hold the office ; for if they did so, they might as well give him power to deal with the whole of the lands of the colony as he pleased.

The CoLONIAL SECRETARY said he thought it must be admitted, by anyone who had listened to the speech of the honorable member for the M:aranoa, that the arguments he had brought forward were clearly un­answerable, for the honorable member had gone right round the compass on the subject. Now, he was satisfied that if the question of free selection over the whole of the colony depended upon the vote of the honorable member, he would not give it. Of that he had little or no doubt whatever, no matter what the honorable member had said. He could tell the House that the main object of this Bill was to meet what they had been told over and over again for years past, was one of the great wants of the colony, and that was, the settlement of an agricultural population, by providing that men with families, desirous of entering upon agricul­tural pursuits, should be able to take up lands suitable for their purposes, in such areas as it came within their means to purchase and cultivate profitably. It was to secure that the land that was taken up for agricultural purposes should be settled upon and culti­vated, and to prevent its being grabbed up as had been done by mere speculators under the provisions of the Act of 1868. If the amend­ments which the honorable member for Warwick proposed to make upon the Bill in committee should be carried, the effect would be that the whole of the lands that were resumed for selection and settle­ment within a given district might be taken up by one or two individuals, which would not certainly be calculated to further the settlement of population upon the lands of the colony. If the amendment now before the House should be carried, the whole object of the Bill would be defeated, as much as it would be by the amendments which the honorable mem­ber proposed to bring forward in committee. If the amendments of the honorable member

Homestead Areas Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Homestead Areas Bill.

were carried, the lands that would be thrown open would be selected by dummies, and the whole object of the Bill would be defeated; and the dummying system, as honorable mem bers were as well aware as he' was himself, altogether precluded the settlement of popu­lation. Now, he must here deny that the lands that were resumed on the Downs were monopolised by the squatters in the district. On the contrary, they were taken up by people who came from New South Wales and from Victoria, and who took up those lands for purely pastoral purposes ; and it was no part of the object for which the Act of 1868 was passed to allow that to be done. Still it had been done. The object of the Act was to secure the settlement of a large agricultural population, but it had not succeeded to the extent it was expected it would on the Downs, though it had succeeded to a larger extent in East and West .Moreton. The Government were not aware that there had been much dummying under the Act. There was only one case that the Government was aware of, and it was of a doubtful nature; and when it came before the Government it was passed, but they had ever since regretted having done so. Still they could lmrdly avoid passing it, as the commissioner for the district certified that the conditions required under the Aet had all been fulfilled. The honorable the Minister for Lands, however, had become acquainted with the particulars of the case from a private source, and his impression was that it was a dummy selection; but it was of a doubtful nature. The Govern­ment, however, had information of a certain kind, that there had been a good deal of dummying under the Act of 1866; but that was before the present Government came into office, and the cases were somewhat difficult to deal with. However, titles had not been given to the land, and before they were given the parties would have to prove their right to obtain them in a proper and legal form. As he had already stated, he believed that the amendments of the honorable member for W arwickwould tend to prevent the settlement ofpopulation; whereas, he believed, the Bill, if passed pretty much in its present form, would greatly facilitate the settlement of an agricultural population on the land ; and as there was a great demand for land for settle­ment, he hoped the House would agree to pass the Bill much in the shape in which it had been brought in.

Mr. LrLLEY said he would not vote for the amendment which had been proposed by the honorable member for Warwick, on the motion for the second reading of the Bill ; because, if it should be carried, it would have the effect of shelving the Bill, and he would rather see it pass the second reading and be dealt with in committee, as he hoped it might be so amended, as to be rendered a most beneficial measure. Still he thought the Bill as it uow stood before the House was wholly

inadequate to meet the demands of the colony, but he would nevertheless accept it as an instalment of justice, so far as it went ; and, as it might have the effect of breaking up the charm of the ten years' leasing system. If a Bill of this kind were passed, but with some amendments upon it in its present form, the spell that bound them to the ten years' leases would be broken, and they might instead go in for the establishment of" a brave yeomanry, a country's pride." Now he be­lieved that if they were to extend the amount of land for these homestead areas, as proposed in the amendments of the honorable member for Warwick, the Act would be a very wholesome one ; but he would rather take the Bill as it stood, than have no Act of the kind at all. He believed that if this Bill were passed there would be a very large demand for the resumption of lands, and for their selection for the purposes of agricultural settlement. Now it was no use for honorable members to attempt to shut their eyes to the fact that the time had come, when there was a demand for lands for settle­ment with a view to cultivation ; and they had, therefore, now to consider what would be the best·way to legislate on this question, so as to provide that the lands of the colony should be alienated in a way that would secure their being turned to the best possible uses for the benefit of the colony, as well as for the benefit of the individual by whom they might be taken up ; and that whether by the large capitalist, or by the small capitalist. It would, he considered, be a very foolish thing to allow of any provision, in a measure of this kind, that would tend to the encourage­ment of dummying; and he felt that, on his own part, he would be doing a very foolish thing if he were to consent to any measure that would admit of the resumption of the lands now held under the ten years' leases, unless there was some provision in it, that would give effect to what he had no doubt was the honest intention of the Government in bringing in this Bill-that no dummying should be allowed, and that residence and cultivation should be strictly enforced. It would, he held, be very discreditable to the colony, if they were to allow the charges that had been made as to dummying to go abroad without their taking some steps to try the good faith of the Government as well as of the country, by having an inquiry made as to the titles under which some of the lands, said to have been taken up under the dummying s,ystem, were held; and he did not think the honorable the Minister for Lands, who he believed desired to do what was honest and right in the administration of his department, would object to such an inquiry being insti­tuted. In fact, he believed that the honorable geni.leman would prefer that there should be such an inquiry. But any inquiry o.f the kind should take plnee at as early a perwd as possible; because, if they allowed a long time

Bomestead .Areas Bill. [31 JULY.] Homestead Areas Bill. 807

to elapse, and at the same time, of course, allowed those persons, who had by fraudulent or corrupt practices obtained possession of the lands, io continue in possession of them, they might be deprived altogether of the means of recovering them. They ought, therefore, to take prompt action in the matter, if it was seriously intended to take any action at all; and with the view of affording the Government the opportunity of doing so, he would, when the House was in committee on the Bill, bring forward for insertion into it, a series of clauses providing for inquiry being made into those alleged dummying transactions. He, also, thought that some of the unsettled districts, those in which impor­tant mineral discoveries were taking place, should be brought within the settled dis­tricts. The Burnett district, for instance, to which a large influx of population was being attracted at the present time, because of mineral discoveries, ought to be brought with the settled districts. The population of the Burnett and of other districts, in what were called the unsettled districts, was largely increasing daily, almost, on account of mineral discoveries ; and many ofthc people who were acquiring wealth by mining or otherwise, were anxious to settle on the lands in the neighbor­hood, but had to stand off, because, as they were told, the lands were strictly reserved for pastoral purposes. He would, therefore, endeavor to have his propositions, that those districts should be brought within the settled districts, adopted by the House. One of the greatest mistakes that had ever been made in this country was the keeping of the lands locked up where mineral discoveries took place. 'i.'he consequence of that was, that many who went there left because they were unable to get land to settle upon. Very much the same kind of thing took place several years ago, when they had a large immigration to the colony, and they could not provide the people with land because of its being locked up in those districts where they desired to settle. The consequence of that was, that those immigrants who were brought here at great expense ran over the colony, so to speak, like water off a duck's back. "\V ere they to allow such a thing to take place again, especially when they pro­posed to renew immigration, they would be acting most unwisely; and, therefore, he maintained that they ought to so open up the lands for settlement as would enable every­one who desired to enter upon agricultural pursuits to do so with every possible facility. The pastoral tenants would not in any way be injured by this being the case, llecause they would be compensated for any improvements they might have made on the lands that were set aside for selection ; and if the lands were not taken up immediately, they would con­tinue, in the meantime, to have a grazing right over them. Now, it was well known tha.t there was no class in the community so

well protected in the matter of their privi­leges, as well as of their rights, as the squatters were. They held possession of large tracts of country on the payment of a merely nominal rental, and he considered that it would be a great addition to their present benefits, that a large industrial popu­lation should settle upon a portion of the lands they occupied, because of the increased value it would give to their produce, and the ready market it would afford for it. It was a well-known fact, that wherever gold fields were discovered, the squatters in the neighborhood profited very largely by the demand for their produce, and the same benefit would, of course, accrue to them from the settlement of an immigrant population for the purpose of industrial pursuits of any kind whateYer. He thought that in com­mittee an amendment should be made in the Dill, fixing the areas, so that too much power in that respect should not be left in the hands of the Minister for Lands, whoever he might be. In dealing with a measure of this kind, they ought to take care that it should not be a sham measure ; but they should be careful to provide for the settlement of population in a generous spirit, and thPy ought especially to do so at the present time, so that they might not have to deal with the question in a hurried manner when there might be a rush of population, from whatever cause arising. They ought to take care also that any measure of the kind should not he liable to become a dead letter, but that it should be such that those who desired to settle upon the lands would find that it would be to their personal advantage to avail th('mselves of its provisions. He did not altogether approve of the Bill, but he would accept of it as an instalment of justice, and would support the second reading, in the hope that it might be considerably amended in committee ; and he would again recommend to honorable members on the Government side of the House, who, no doubt, naturally clung tenaciously to the property in their possession, to allow themselves to be actuated by a liberal and even generous spirit in dealing with the Bill.

Mr. FYFE supported the second reading of the Bill, though he considered that it was altogether too limited in its application. It, appeared to him that it was intended only for the settlement of population in the South; but if it was deemed to be beneficial in that respect for the South, it ought to be extended to the North also, for there was as great a demand for land for settlement and cultivation in the Hockhampton district as there was in any other part of the colony ; and he could not see why a measure of this kind should be made to apply only to the southern portions of the C,)lony. He hoped, however, that it would be so amended in committee that it would meet, not only his own views on the general question, but also the views of those who had a special interest in the extension of

808 Homestead Areas Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Homestead Areas Bill.

its provisions to the North, even beyond the district he represented.

Mr. CLARK said that if it was the wish of honorable members he would withdraw his amendment.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS said that before the amendment was withdrawn, he would like to say a few words in reply to the objections which had been made against the Bill. He might commence by saying that he had not expected for one moment that his Bill would share a different fate from that of any other Land Bill that was ever brought in : and would meet with general approval. He did not suppose that any Land Bill ever introduced into the Australian Colonies would meet with general approval. He was not ashamed of his Bill, neither was he at all disgusted with the tone of the criticisms which had been made upon it, because every honorable member looked upon it from his own point of view ; and if the honorable member for Warwick did that, he had no doubt reason on his side for not approving of it. But the point of vie IT taken by the honorable member was not the correct one. It had been said that it \Vas not in­tended to work the Bill, by reason of clause 16, which gave power to make regulations; but still that ·was a ]Jower always reserved. If the framer of a Bill was a mo~t immaculate man, still there would always be something pointed out that required amendment. It was only right that everybodv should submit to such criticism, and it was "very wholesome that there should be snrh criticism. The honorable member for Warwick had quoted the Darling Downs as an instance where growing grain crops was not profitable. In some cases it was not profitable, it was true; but he knew of many cases where it did pay. · He would also remind the honorable member that it could not be laid down as a general rule that a farmer confined his busi­ness to grain growing, as it was a well knoiTn fact that he did not, but also had vines and other produce. There was, however, the fact before them that those men lived, and it was not~ing to the House what they culti­vated, so long as they became a settled population-that was the chief thing to be considered. The honorable member also said that there must be larger areas ; but that would come in due time. \Vhat was wanted, especially at the present time, was a Bill to provide small areas for the small men who could not now get what they wanted. 1Ech men could always get land-the history of every country showed that as the country grew in wealth and population the lands got concentrated in the hands of the few richer men ; because land was an investment which paid the smallest amount of interest on capital. The object of his Bill was to assist the small man who had not that money power which would always enable the capitalist to secure land. The reason for so

doing was, because it was desirable to settle a numerous population on the lands, who would develop the resources of the country, and who would assist in bt'aring the burden of taxation. Then, as to the remarks of the honorable member about giving compensation. There was no provision for giving compensa­tion to the pastoral lessees; and why, he would ask, should they r<'sume more land than was necessary for their requirements, because, as the resolutions would be under the Act of 18ii8, they could always re~ume more land when necessary ? The honorable member was not, perhaps, aware of the area that would be resumed under those resolu­tions ; he would, therefore, inform the horror­able member. On the Darling Downs, the area to be resuml'd was 325 square miles ; in West :i\Ioreton, 56 square miles; and, in East Moreton, lOO square miles. That, he thought, was a considerable area, and not such a trifling amount as some honorable members appeared to regard it. He ventured to say that if they were enabled to get it, it would SU]Jply the demand for land for some years to come ; and if honorable members gave the matter a little consideration, he believed it would be better to be satisfied with that, at present, than to trench upon the rights of those gentle­men who were now in possession of the lands. If, in addition to the quantity of land now taken up by selcrtors, oyer the whole colony, up to the end of last year, the honor­able member took the 800 selections of 820 acres each which would be available under the resolutions, he would find that they would form a considerable proportion. It might also be very fairly estimated that each of those selectors would employ Jabor, or would have his wife and family ;-at any rate, each man might be considered to represent five persons, so that that would be a considerable increase to the population. The honorable member for \Varwick advocated taldng the land from the present lessee!!., in order to give it to men who would make better use of it ; but he (Mr. 'l'hompson) could not see what better use the land could be 1mt to, than by inereasing the popula­tion of the colony, which would be done by the Bill ;-whereas, by the honorable mem­ber's amendment, the lands would be trans­ferred from large squatters to medium men. In both cases the lands would be fenced in the same as at present, and therefore no more labor would be employed than was now the case, and the population would be increased only to an infinitesimal extent. The honor­able member had been rather severe upon those who had exercised their pre-emptive right: but the House had nothing to do with those gentlemen, who had merely made a fair bargain with the Crown ;-they had only done what was done very often in regard to ordinary leases-leased property with the right to purchase. Then the honorable member indulged in the usual tirade against

Homestead Areas Bill. [31 JULY.] Hornestearl A1•eas Bill. 809

the extraordinary power that the Bill pro­posed to place in the hands of the Minister for Lands. Now, he would ask, if the Minister of the day did not have that power, who was to have itP The power must be vested• in some one, and if the powers were made too rigid, they would be ridden through in every direction; they must be somewhat elastic. The honorable member said among other things, that the Government should not hold out inducements to the people to ruin themselves. But that had nothing to do with the State. If those men settled down on land, they did so to make money; and if they did not succeed, it was :r.ot the fault of the State. If the small men, as they were called, could not make the land pay ; why, they must give it up, and the thing would right itself: but, in the mean­time, there was a demand for land, and that demand must be satisfied. Then the honor­able member said that there should be the same facilities offered in the unsettled dis­tricts as in the settled districts ; but that was being done every day. In Clermont, for instance, when a representation was made to the Government, the reserve there was largely increased, and there were several other centres of population in the unsettled districts in which selections had been opened under the Act of 1868, such as Roma, Goondiwindi, and others ; in fact, wherever a demand had existed, the Government had not been slow to attend to it. To go to the main pith of the arguments of the honorable member, namely, large areas. Well, the honorable member advocated large areas ; but, if there were large areas with personal residence, and small areas with personal residence, there must be a larger number of persons resident in the smaU areas than in the large. If there were large areas, only a few personal residents would be necessary, and he was sure that that was not what that House or the country wanted. A good deal had also been said about free selection ; and, without saying whether it might be desirable, or just or un­just, he would only say that he did not think it would be possible, in the present circum­stances of the colony. He thought that, if they could keep ahead in the supply of the demand for land, it was all that the country could reasonably expect. 'l'he honorable member for Warwick, he understood, in­tended to withdraw his amendment ; and there was no doubt, therefore, that the Bill would pass its second reading. Some amend­ments might be proposed to the Bill when it was in committee, which he proposed shoulJ be on the following Friday.

Mr. STEPIIENS said he should certainly support the Bill, and trusted that it would become law in some shape or othcr,-in fact, he 'hoped that the first seven clauses vmuld become law almost in their present shape. He considered that the Bill as it was, was as good as they had any right to expect would

come from a purely squatting Government, and must be looked upon as a proof of the urgent demand which must have been made by the country to exact it. They had had from the h()norable member at the head of the Government an admission that he knew, from official sources-what every­body knew before-that the demand for land on the Darling Downs had been far in excess of the supply, and that if more land was opened up there, it would be occupied. Yet, in the face of that, they saw the squatters on the Downs keeping possession of the land as long as it was possi­ble for them to do so-until the pressure from without was so great that the Government were comp('lled to come forward with some measure on the subject. He had looked with pleasure on the resolutions of the bonorable Minister for Lands, when they were first placed on the paper; but he must say that his suspicions began to be aroused wlwn, day after day, he saw the discussion on them postponed. He thought, however, that when once they had dealt with those resolutions, they would make short work of the rest of the session. He should support the Bill, with the view of having the resolutions carried into effect as early as possible. It had seemed to him most extraordinary, after the horror which had always been expressed by honorable gentle­men opposite, of any interference with the ten years' leases, that the Government should have brought forward resolutions for the resumption of those lands. The Bill was

! amusing, from having come from a squatting Government ; and it was also amusing to notice how it was proposed to resume only the. smallest portions allowed by the Act, in every case ; and then, with a view to shew the fairness of the thing, it was proposed to take a slice from every run without any reference to the demand that might exist for land in certain localities. Some might be wanted and others might not. Of course that was to give the whole thing an appearance of impar­tiality ; but the result would be as he said, that some would be found altogether insuffi­cient to meet the demands, whilst others would hardly be required at all. trhat he considered would be extremely unfair, inas­much as the moment the land was resumed by the Bill as it at present stood, from that moment the squatter from whom it was resumed, was entitled to a reduction in his rent, and compensation for his improvements, which he could not claim before; although he would still retain the use of such land until it was actually occupied by selectors. The l3ill was another specimen of how neatly a squatting Government could manage to pre­serve the interests of their supporters and friends, when they were compelled to bring forward some measure for satisfying the demand for land which had been made by the country. He thought it would be as well, if, when the Bill was in committee, the honor·

810 Homestead Areas Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Homestead Areas Bill.

able the Minister for Lands would give them some information as to the amount of rent which would be remitted in the cases where the runs were to be resumed; and, also, what rent was now paid for those runs. He thought it would be found, in the case of lands near the towns, that the whole lands would most probably be taken up in a short time, and in such cases, a reduction of the rent would only be quite fair; but, where that was not the case, owing to the land being situated a long distance from a town or a railway, it would not be fair to make any reduction, as the country would lose the rent and the squatter would not lose his run-at least for a considerable time. But they would never have that matter satisfactorily settled so long as it was left to the :Minister for Lands of the day to make regulations, as proposed in the Bill; and there would never be enough land thrown open to meet the demand. He should, however, support the Bill, and do his best to assist in its being carried into law after it had been amended in one or two places. There were some amendments which would have to be made-the tenth clause, for instance, must be eliminated. That was :-

" It shall be lawful for the Secretary for Lands from time to time and for such period as he shall see fit to grant to the pastoral lessee of any run in the settled or unsettled districts a right to depasture stock over any portion of land re.sumed from such run until1he same is l'eqni1·ed forpnblic purposes or selected or sold by auction or other· wise disposed of according to law."

Now, he wondered why that right should be left in the hands of the Minister for Lands for the time being-why should he be allowed to exercise such favor as that? It would be just as much as to say that a squatter should be allowed to retain possession of the land as long as he was able to pav the rent. He could see no object whatever in the eleventh clause, for the Acts of both 1868 and 1869 clearly defined the rates of compensation for improvements ; and why the House should, in accepting the Bill, which was only a small modiculll of justice-as small as possible­give to the lessee, as won as his land was resumed, or even before it could be occupied, a right for compensation for improvements­which compensation bad been already pro­vided for-he really could not understand. He agreed with the amendment of the horror­able member for Warwick; at the same time, he did not see how it could come in. He should support the Bill for the purpose of getting the resolutions of the honorable Minister for Lands passed as soon as possible ; and he hoped the honorable gentleman would feel in a position to bring them forward, and not continue to place them at the bottom of the business paper.

Mr. \VmNHOLT said he was glad to hear that the honorable member for 'W arwirk intended to withdmw his amendment; be-

cause, taking into consideration that the main object of the Bill was to enable men of small means to settle on the lands and obtain homesteads for themselves without competi­tion, and to prevent areas for such a purpose being taken up in large blocks, he did not see how that could be done if the amendment of the honorable member was adopted. Now, the honorable member and 8ome other honor­able members opposite evidently believed in the principle of free selection all over the colony ; but he thought that would be against the intPrcsts of the country at large. He believed in concentrating agricultural popula­tions as much as possible ; as it was for their advantage in maliy respects that they should be brought together, so that they would be able to have roads and other improvements carried out in a way which could not be done if they were scattered all over the country. In fact, he looked upon it as a fault in the Bill- that the agricultural selections would be too much scattered. He believed in free trade in land as well as in everything else, and he was quite sure that it was a sound principle. He did not see why a man should b~ precluded from selling land when he felt inclined to do so, or why he should be prevented from buying it, if he thought he would benefit himself by so doing. He was quite sure that it was a sound principle in legislation to have thorough free trade in land. He quite agreed in selecting homestead areas for settlers ; but, after they had been selected, he believed it would be a wise plan to put up for sale by auction the remainder of the lands not selected. He hoped that the Government would not throw open any more land under the conditional purchase clauses of the Act of 1868, for he was quite sure that the lands so thrown open would find its way into the hands of WPalthy men from other colonies, who would take them up; and that, he thought, would not be desirable. He was quite sure that the graziers of the colony were not averse to the settlement in the colony of a large agricultural population ; there might, it was true, be a few narrow-minded men who were, but ho was sure that the great bulk of them were not. They would, however, object -and rightly too, if their leases were taken away, for the purpose of giving them to a lot of versons from the other colonies ; and if they were to be dispossessed of country on which they had spent the best years of their lives, and vast sums of money, just for the purpose of enabling other versons to put those lands to the same use, without realising the full value the lands would realise if sold by auction. He maintained that if they were to put up lands for auction, after seiting asido the area required for homestead selections, such a system woulcl be for the benefit of the country ; there would be a large income derived from the hmls-suffieient to pay for the construction Qf all their public works. He would deal with resumed. lands in the

Homestead Areas Bill. [31 JULY.] Homestead Areas Bili. sli

same way, giving the present lessees fair com­pensation-and it that was done, it would be found of great advantage to the colony. He would ask, what those would think who came after them, when they found that, with an enormous debt hanging over the colony, and heavy taxation; they could, with the enormous territory they possessed, not only confine to the shores of the colony the people, but also not accumulate wealth, and raise funds to meet their heavy expenditure and employment of their people on useful public works? But no ; they could not listen to the dictates of common reason, because a few narrow-minded men could sway and influence others to believe that they could upset the laws which regulated the affairs of men; they thought that they could, by their action, prevent all that. They imagined that they were legislating for the good of posterity by preventing the free action of the present generation. It was absurd, and he trusted that in dealing with the question of the public lands in future, they would adopt a sounder system. He should support the second reading of the Bill.

The SEcRETARY FOR PUBLIC \VoRKS said that nobody could suppose that a mea­sure of the nature of that before the House could be discussed without the horror­able member for South Brisbane making his usual onslaught on the Government of the day, of which the honorable member was not a member. The honorable member knew that he had done wrong, and had been told of it; but, as:was invariably the case, the honorable gentleman laughed when he was told that he had done wrong; or if the horror­able member could not laugh, he tried to sleep ; and failing that, he tried to get horror­able members to talk, or to get into a conver­sation with him. He trusted, however, the honorable gentleman would listen to the few words he was going to say. .As he had re­marked, whenever a useful measure like the present was introduced-all parties should work harmoniously together for the purpose of passing a Bill that would be of advantage to the colony generally; but the honorable member invariably endeavorcd to fasten some charge on the squatting party, for the pur­pose of expressing his extraordinary predilec­tions, whatever they might be. Now he would ask, what had the squatting Govern­ment to do with the Bill P The honorable member said it was more than could have been expected from a vurely squatting Go­vernment. Probably it was; but was it not more than ever could be got from any anti­squatting Government of which the honor­able member had been a member? \Vhen he recalled the past land legislation of the colony, he could only say, that anything that was liberal-anything that was for the real good of the colony-that had ever passed that House, was carried by that class of which the honorable member was so jealous,

and by their supporters. Who, he would ask, passed the Crown Lands Alienation Act of 1868, which was such an admirable Bill, and under which so many had made for themselves homes in the colony-who was it, but a squatting Government P Who was it that the Government of which the honorable member for Fortitude Valley was the Pre:nier, asked to support the Act of 1869, but the squatters ? ~Why the Premier of that Go­vernment appealed to the squatters in the House to guide and help him in passing that Act. Every change for the better or worse in the land system had either originated from the squatters, or had been passed by the squatters at the soli citation of the colleagues of the honorable member who was now making such charges against them. Who had surrendered so much lands as the squatters? vVho had assisted to settle so many people on the lands of the colony but the squatting Government of the day ? But now the honorable member wished to hold up that very Government, or the gentlemen of whom it was composed, and those by whom it was supported, to the contempt of the people of the country. The honorable mem­ber knew very well that what he said would be reported in the columns of the Courier, whilst he knew that what was said in reply to it would not be reported; and the horror­able member took a mean advantage for the purpose of constantly holding up to the ridicule of the people those gentlemen who had done ten times more for the good of the country than either the honorable mem­ber or his party had ever done. 'What had the honorable member's Government done but pass a Bill for the purpose of dummying?

.Mr. STEPHENS: No, no. The SEcRETARY FOR PuBLIC WoRKS :

Under whose Government, he would ask, was it done ; who joined in it, but the Premier of the Government of which the honorable gen­tleman was a member? The first man who dummied was the Premier of the day, Mr. Maealister.

Mr. S;rEPHENs: No. The SEcRETARY FOR PUBLIC WoRKS : The

honorable member knew it very well indeed ; and he would be bound, the clay the honorable member took his money as Colonial Treasurer, he knew pretty well what it was for. In regard to the question before them, he could only express his opinion that there should be free selection all over the colony.

~Mr. SrEPHENS: Hear, hear. The SEcRETARY FOR PuBLIC WoRKS had

never heard the honorable member cheer any such liberal remarks before, as it would not have suited the policy of the honorable mem­ber to ha Ye done so. I! ut he (IIIr. W alsh) said it-that there ought to be free selection all over the colony; but the present was not the time to have it. He looked upon the Bill, however, as an approach to it. He must say,

812 Homestead A1•eas Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Homestead Areas EiZi.

that he thought concentrating the people into narrow limits, was unfair to the squatters and to the people. If he wanted to purchase a few thousand acres of land, why should he be compelled to go into settled districts-why should he not be able to go to Roma, for in­stance, if he chose P As they grew older, they might grow wiser ; but, long as he had known the honorable member for South Brisbane, he had never heard him go in for free selection. What the honorable member had generally advocated was, the destruction of the squatters, and, so long as the honorable gentleman could do them a certain amount of personal or poli­tical injury, the honorablc gentleman appeared satisfied. The honorable member had never, however, got up and introduced a liberal land measure ; but, on the contrary, when he was a member of a Government, he was always a most quiet member. The honorable member always advocated "rest and caution ;" that was his policy when in the Government, but, as soon as he sat opposite, he indulged in one constant grumble against the squatters, for not spending the public money, and not alienating the public lands.

Mr. STEPHENs: Hear, hear. The SEcRETARY Fou PuBLic W onKs thought

that the honorable member, instead of endea­voring to raise up animosity between one set of colonists and anotht:>r, as he was in the habit of doing, should for the future endeavor to assist in carrying on the business of the country. The honorable gentleman had cer­tainly said that he would endeavor to improve the Bill when it was in committee; but he had sat near that honorable member when he had endeavored to improve other Land Bills, and he could assure the House that when the honorable member introduced any amend­ment they would not be able to understand his design; and they would find out afterwards that every amendment the honorable member proposed would have the effect of marring the Bill. He would warn the House against ac­cepting any amendment of the honorable gen­tleman; for, from his experience, he could say that the honorable member had never introduced an amendment that did not inter­fere with the honest working of a Bill. He did think that it was a most lamentable thing, when a measure was brought forward for the purpose of assisting the settlement of the people on the land, ihat the honorable mem­ber should always get up and endeavor to throw in the apple of discord.

Mr. HEMMANT said he would not occupy the House for long ; but he would like to ask the honorable the Minister for Lands, before the Bill went into committee, whether he was aware, or whether it was true, that some of the lessees of Crown lands hacl been allowed to exercise their pre-emptive right in those resumed lands after the notice of resumption had been published in the resolutions which had been laid on the table by the honorable ;member?

The SECUETARY FOR PFBLIC LANDS : No, never. None of the proposed resumptions had been allowed to be trenched upon; in one case a selection had been made by mistake, but it was before the resumption had been made known.

Mr. HEMMANT said he was glad to hear that, as there had been some misapprehension outside on the subject. He quite agreed with the remarks that had been made that the best way to settle the whole question would be to have free selection all over the colony; and as so many honorable members had expressed the same opinion, he thought there could be no great difficulty in carrying out that prin­ciple. He must say that he agreed with the honorable member for Warwick, that there was a feeling growing ·amongst the farmers­he could speak for those of East Moreton -that 320 acres was too small an area to carry on their operations profitably. A. man could no doubt do very well with a small area so long as he was near a market ; but, when that was not the case, there was an opinion abroad that, to make farm­ing }Jay, it must be combined with grazing. There vms, also, another thing he would like to mention, namely, that in East Moreton there were several runs required for settlement, which were too small to come within the pro­visions of the Bill-as there were some which did not comprise more than seven square miles. There was another thing also : that those persons who had taken up land under the Act of 1868, seeing that the new Bill would offer more liberal conditions, hoped that before it became law, they would be allowed to select as much as would make up the 320 acres, including what they occupied, and that they should not be compelled to reside upon that extra ,quantity so given. That appeared to him to be a very fair re­quest. The only other matter he had to refer to was, the extraordinary power pro11osed to be conferred on the Minister for Lands. He must say that he had no objection whatever, to the honorable gentleman at present holding that position, possessing that power ; but he thought it might be a dangerous power to vest in Ministers as a rule. He believed that that House was the proper tribunal to deal with all such questions as were contained in the Bill, ancl that there was a great deal too much power proposed to be given to one Minister. However, if the amendments spoken of by honorable memb~rs, more especially that about free selectwn, were carried, he did not think that the House need trouble itself much about the power given to the Minister for Lands. He thought the intending settler would be the best judge of what he wanted, and would not require any one to tell him where to carry on his labors most profitably.

Mr. J. ScoTr was understood to say that there was a very considerable demand, he believed, for land in some places ; but he

:Loans Consolidation Bill. [31 JuLY.] :Loans Consolidation Bill. 813

thought that it would be impossible, in many cases, for a man to get the quantity of agri­cultural land which had been proposed, along­side of pastoral land, so as. to work the two together. He would like to know, for instance, whether a man could go into the :M:itchell district, and get 320 acres of agri­cultural land alongside pastoral land. He had lived in that district for a great many years, and he was quite sure he could not. He believed that no man on the Downs could feE'd more than 35 head of cattle on 320 acres, and he would not be able to make a living out of them, as he would only have from six to eight milch cows among them, and out of those, only three at a time would be in milk all the year round. He thought, therefore, that the area should be increased-he was not sure whether 640 acres would be enough. He had lived in New South "\Vales at a time when men could, on application, take up a square mile at a pound an acre ; but those men vrere not limited to that mile, as they could let their cattle run beyond that-even then, it was not found sufficient.

The amendment was, by leave, with­dravrn.

The question was put and passed.

LOANS CONSOLIDATION BILL.

The CoLONIAL TREASURER moved­That this Bill be now read a second time. Mr. HE111M.A.NT said he really thought it

was too important a question to be dealt vrith at that late hour of the evening ; it was a question involving nearly five millions of money, and, therefore, the House ought not to be called upon to discuss it that night. It would have heen much better if the measure had been postponed till next session., as it appeared to him that the Bill would give the Government much more povrcr than they ought to have. The first clause of the Bill gave the Governor in Council power-" from time to time borrow all moneys required for converting and consolidating the several public loans. of the colony and for that purpose may from time to time issue or cause to be issued under this Act secured upon the Consolidated Revenue :Fund of the colony debentures sufficient in amount to retire the debentures issued under the authority of the several Acts enumerated in the schedule hereto l'rovided that the total sum of the de ben· tures so to be issued shall not in the aggregate exceed four millions five hundred thousand pounds sterling and that the interest payable thereon shall not exceed the rate of five pounds per centum per annum.''

Now, he thought that the House ought to have some further information from the honorable the Treasurer as to how he in­tended to deal with the loan. The honorable member certainly made some reference to it in his Financial Statement, but nothing was known of it beyond that. He thought he

gathered from the honorable gentleman, that it vras the intention of the Government to consolidate a loan at 90 bearing 4 per cent. interest. Now, they had not sufficient ex­perience of the way in which consolidation of loans had answered with other colonies to know what the result would be, but he thought it would be found very difficult to put' stock issued at 90, as it would only return £3 Ss. per cent. to the investor, whilst now they were getting 6 per cent. It was very evident to him, that any person convert­ing at the prices offered by the Government must suffer a serious diminution in his in­come. He had noticed by an article which had appeared in a newspaper of that day, that any person holding lOO of those deben­tures would have an actual present income of £600; but, allowing for his making provision to provide for depreciation, of £500 only. For those 100 6 per cent. debentures, he would receive llO of the new consolidated 4 per cents. ; producing a permanent income for forty years of £550-an actual present loss, but a permanent future gain. Now, he thought it was not at all likely that persons holding 6 per cent. debentures would be willing to convert them into. 4 per cent. at 90, when they would suffer a reduction of their income ; he believed that there might be a saving to the colony in the long run, but they had no right to sacrifice posterity for the sake of immediate gain. They might convert at a certain price; but they had not heard from the honorable the Treasurer that the Government intended to convert at 90; or how much lower thP.y in­tended to go, or whether they intended to allow the agent to comert at SO if they could not make better terms. He thought cer­tainly that they ought to have further inf01'1nation on the subject before they were called upon, at ten o' elock at night, to consider a measure of such importance, and involving such large sums of money. He saw that the amount proposed to be issued was £4,500,000, and the Government would be allowed, if the Bill became law, to consolidate that at an interest not exceeding 5 per cent. Now, when the colony of New Zealand commenced consolidating her loans, she sent home the Treasurer himself to arrange matters ; but honorable members had no information what­ever as to how the Government of this colony intended to proceed. There was only a bare announcement made in the honorable the Treasurer's Financial Statement, and a Bill was put into their hands-that was all they knew about it. He therefore thought they were justified in asking for some more infor­mation. There was no doubt that it was a hobby of a gentleman named W estgarth, who might be a very great man on the English Stock Exchange, and who, no doubt, was. But at the same time, there was no occasion why that House should take that gentleman's dictum as truth. They wanted something

S14 Loans Consolidation Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Loans Consolidation Bill.

stronger than that dictum to assure them that the public would take up Queensland stock at 4 per cent. No figures had been sup­plied to the House since the Financial btate­ment was made, nor anything to shew that the people at home would buy at four per cent. They had heard that Indian stock at four per cent. returned £3 17s. Sd. per eent., with £10 per cent. bonus at the end of 40 years' currency; but what analogy was there between Indian stock and Queensland deben­tures ? None in the least ; and there was no reason to suppose that because ~fr. "\Vest­garth recommended consolidation, the present holders of stock would consent to lose now, because in foriy years' time they would have an increase; or in the meantime give up what was supposed to be the market rate. Mr. W estgarth believed it could be effected, although there was hardly an investment that a person could go into, that would not be better than to exchange his present debentures for four per cent. with 40 years' currency. What reason, again, had they for believing that Queensland stock would be so sold ?-he was supposing the Government intended to conso­lidate at 90 with 4 per cent., which would return to the investor £4 Ss. lOd. per cent. Now he found that a person could invest in eight or nine Indian railways, with 5 per cent. guaranteed by the Imperial Government-so that there was not the slightest risk-and, what. was more, there was the great ad vantage that 1f there were large profits, so long as the guarantee was paid up, the investors derived the benefit of those profits. \V ell, those rail­ways returned £4 12s. 7d. per cent. Now would not that be better than purchasing Queensland 4 per cents at 90 P He certainly thought, as he had said before, that the House should have more information on the su"h!ject -whether the Government were willing to consolidate at 90 P If not, the House was asked to pass a Bill authorising them to con­solidate debentures to the amount of nearly five millions of money without their knowing anything about the agents, or anything else. It would be very different if one of the responsible Ministers were to go home and take the management of those financial ar­rangements ; because then there would be a guarantee to the colony that nothing would be done to injure its interests; but he did not believe in entrusting so large an amount to an agent or to agents whose name or names the House had not even been made acquainted with. On a question like the present, the House should be put in possession of the fullest information, and he certainly had been in hopes that the Bill would have been clearly explained by ihe honorable member in charge of it. He thought, if the Govern­ment had taken the new loan first, and had then decided as to what would be the most advantageous rate of obtaining that loan-if they had put forward the loan for one and a-half millions at 4 or 5 per cent. first, it

would have been much better to have done so, before entering upon the consolidation of the whole loans. He had certainly under­stood the honorable the Treasurer that it was the intention of the Government to raise the new loan first, in order to see how the deben­tures went off; but, instead of that, the House was called upon to consider the Loan Consolidation Bill first. There was nothing to be gained by immediately entering upon so large an experiment as that, for, ac?ording to recent accounts, although the cxpenment had ah·eady been tried in .New Zealand, as yet, it had been impossible to ascertain how it had succeeded ; perhaps, however, the Govern­ment would be able to give some information on the subject. In the honorable the Trea­surer's Financial Statement, he mentioned-

" From a financial statement of the Colonial Treasurer of New Zealand, I find that colonial-and provincial debentures, representing £2,723,250, had, up to that t.ime, been converter!, at an annual s11ving of interest to the colony of £28,519. ~ince then, debentures to nearly an equal amount have been converted, with, I believe, even greater suc­cess; and, by the latest advic0B, the consolidated five per cent. debentures, which were issued at 95!!­to 97, now command a fair premium."

But they had not heard at what rate they were sold-whether taken at market rates or at the fictitious rates set forth in one of the tableR that had been laid on the table of that House in connection 11·ith the Bill. "VVhcn he said fictitious, he referred to Table ·1, where he saw that the debentures were set down at from 103 to 113, whereas, the actual quota­tions were from 111 to 115; so that it was merely an assumption whether the holders of our present debentures were willing to ex­change to the rates set down in the· table. It was quite true that those figures were ma­thematically correct; but, the question was whether any person would be willing to con­sider 4 per cent. at 90, an equivalent for debentures bearing 6 per cent. He thought they should have more infor-ma­tion upon a matter which, if not properly managed at home, would be productive of very serious injury to the colony, and, if pro­perly conducted, might be very advantageous. He had not said one single word against the principle of consolidation; he approved of it, as he thought it was a good principle, but he considered that the House should not be ealled upon to legislate in the dark. It was true they had had some very valuable papers furnished by the courtesy of the Government, but beyond that they had only the slight re­ference to the subject which was contained in the Financial Statement, and the word of Mr. "\V estgarth; there was nothing to shew that they would be able to convert their de ben· tures at 90, with 4 per cent. The circumstances were against the honorablc the Treasurer, so far as he (l\Ir. Hcmmant) had been able to ascertain, because any person holding Queens-

:Loans Consolidation Bill. [31 JuLY.] :Loans Oonsolidation Bill. 815

land stock would, in the first place, be at the loss of a considerable portion of his income ; and, again, why should it be supposed that • he would give such a preference to Queens· land, that he would consent to receive from that colony a smaller income than he could get in the Indian market P A man could buy Canadian stock at much better advantage than Queensland stock, and that was a question to which men looked-where they could invest their money to the greatest advantage. It was not a question to be decided by mere sen­timent; but it was one-whether a man would invest in stock simply because it happened to be that of Queensland, if it did not return to him as much as other stock would do ? He thought the experience of the stock market was against such an assumption. He thought that the reduction from 6 to 4 per cent. would be too. sudden, and, he believed, it would be found more practicable to convert the 5 per cent. than the 4 per cent. Although the gain would not be so large, yet they must not lose sight altogether of posterity. He did not think much value was to be placed on the tables that had been furnished, for they could not take credit for relief in both ways ; but, after all, the whole question pended upon what rate the Government proposed to issue the debentures at. If they intended to issue at 4 per cent., and not below 90, his opinion was that it would be a failure, as he did not think there was anything so particularly at­tractive in the colony to investors, to induce them to come forward and invest on those terms.

1\Ir. RAMSAY said he quite agreed with the honorable member for East Moreton, that it was a pity a discussion on so important a sub­ject should have been brought on at that late period of the evening. He had not the re­motest idea that it would have been brought on, and, for his part, would have desired that it should have been pcstponed until the next day. At the same time, he could not agree with the honorable member, that very little information had been afforded by the Government, as the honorable the Treasurer, in his Financial Statement, had given very full information-in fact, as much as could have been expected. They must all feel that they were approaching the subject under great disadvantages, and were to a cer­tain extent groping about in the dark; and if an agent had been employed, and had been in communication with the stockbrokers at home, they would have known more, and it would have been better, no doubt. It was true that they had had some little experience, as they had seen the experiment carried out in a neigh boring colony; but still the results of that experiment had not been such as to meet the circumstances of Queensland. The colony of New Zealand, so far, appeared to have carried out the principle of consolidation very successfully; but there had been a variety of stock issued by different Legisla-

3 E

tures, which was now replaced by stock from the general Government, and thus the secu­rity was better. Now this colony was dif. ferent-it had no such advantages; but :n't its security was the best in the world, although it could offer no better security now than was ht>ld by the holders of its debentures at the present time. As they had no power to make the holders of those debentures give them up, they had nothing to go upon than to offer them certain advantages. The question to consider was, whether those advantages were sufficient to induce those holders to accede to the terms which it would be to the advantage of the colony to offer to them. He thought that the advantages were sufficient, but it must be remembered that the agent at home, whoever he might be, would have certain instructions to guide him-he would be given the tables which had been laid before honor­rable members, or others more comprehensive, and which he believed would be found to be very good and trustworthy ; and he would also be told that if he could not carry out the transactions at a certain rate, he must not carry them out at all. That was-that if the debentures now out were to be obtained at a certain price, he would then sell the new loan at a certain price. Those were the instruc­tions given, he believed, to the agent of the colony of New Zealand. The honorable member for East Moreton had very properly said that there had been no information as to the terms on which the New Zealand loan had been placed ; but there were so many different descriptions of stock of that colony that it was difficult to say. In regard to the tables which had been laid before honorable members, he would take one at random, and would endeavor to shew how it would operate. Those tables were very simple when under­stood, although at first they looked rather formidable. He would, first of all, say a word or two in regard to the different parties with whom the colony ought to be able to transact business. In the first place, they hoped to be able to deal with those who held Queensland debentures as a permanent investment-namely, trustees. Those gentleman liked to have a steady permanent return, and not to lose their capital at the end of the term. Now, the Government were offering to that class an improving stock at a discount in exchange for a deteriorating stock which they could sell at a premium, and thus it would be to their profit to invest, even at a temporary loss of income, in such stock. In the one case, the debentures would every year be getting less valuable ; whilst, in the other, without a man verv materially diminishing his present income, he would be increasing his capital-it would give him a larger sum to leave behind him to his children. Then again, they had to look to those persons who regarded stock as a speculation, and they again would, he thought, look at the matter much in the ~arue

816 Loans Oonsolidation Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Loans Consolidation BiU.

light. They would say, in regard to the present premium debentures, " These are becoming every day less valuable, but the discount debentures are rising in value." To those who wished to hold permanent deben­tures, the exchange would be of great ad van· tage, as they would see a steady income before them. It was well known to honorable members that the rates of interest must decline, and thus those persons would rather make sure of a lower rate for forty years certa~n than run the risk of depreciation. Those who held trust funds-and they had been referred to more than once of late-could not afford to lose capital, and they would be benefited by investing in stock at a discount. He would now take one of the lines of the table, and just run through it with the view of shewing honorable members how it would come out. He would ask them to turn to table 0, and take the 4 per cent. debentures sold at 85. He merely took that line at random, not that he thought it would be realised, but as it was one that was more disadvantageous to the colony than taking 4 per cent. at 90. He thought, however, he could shew that even at 85 the colony would be a gainer. If honorable members would look at column four, they would see that by it, it was proposed to buy our deben­tures at from 108 to 114, and to sell them at 84, 4 per cent. Now, it was hardly possible that things could be worse than that; but he would shew that, if they could carry out a reduction at that price, the colony would derive a great profit. If honor­able members would look at column eight, they would see that the annual difference between the old and new interest would be £29,260 that was saved - that, at 4 per cent. compound interest, at the end of the currency of the present debentures, it would be £622,571, whilst the increase of debt would be £1,099,975. Now, so far, it would be quite evident that the transaction would be a loss to the colony ; but though a writer in the Courier newspaper, on the pre­vious day, thought the calculation should stop there, it must be evident that if the debt was not consolidated, the debentures must be paid when they fell due, and a calculation which did not take into consideration how the money for that purpose was to be raised must be faulty. To effect that at the prices quoted would require £4,309,394, the interest on which would amount to £172,37 4 per annum ; but, under the consolidation principle, the colony would have to pay £190,519, which, less the interest on the accumulated saving, would leave £165,614. So that the annual saYing would be from the date of the present debentures falling due, till the end of the forty years, £240,981, and the total profit, including the accumulated saYings, £409,985 at the end of the forty years. That was as plain as figures could make it, and was includ­ing com;pound interest at four per cent. To

that an objection had been made that the rate was taken too low. But if it was so, it •was more than compensated for by taking the low rate of compound interest ; if it was taken at 5 per cent. it would be a much more profitable transaction. All must rest of course to a great extent upon supposition, as they could not tell at what rate the deben­tures would sell ; but they would be quite safe if the Government told the agent the terms upon which only he must sell, and the colony could not suffer any loss. It might be attended with large profit, but it would be impossible that it could be attended with any loss. It would be profitable pt•o tanto if it was carried out to the extent of half or a quarter of the debt. He had noticed that it was stated in the newspaper that the tables from which he had just quoted were very complicated ; but he did not think they were if a person gave a little time to their study. If honorable members would look through them they would find there was only a repeti­tion of the same thing at a different rate; but if it was too troublesome for them to do that, there was a summary at the bottom which explained the whole thing. He thought it had been stated that it was a mistake to put 5 per cent. in the Bill, and he believed also that it was a mistake, and that it would be better to substitute 4 per cent. In fact, his own private opinion was, that that alteration might well be made. He was aware, from a conversation which he had had with the honorable member for Fortitude Valley a few days ago, that that honorable member was prepared to recommend, instead of long-dated debentures, the issue of redeem­able stock. Now, there was a great deal, no doubt, to be said in favor of that, but he was inclined to think, on the whole, that it was not advisable. Stock had its advantages in England, where peo]_9le were living on the spot; but in the case of the debentures of this colony, which went all over the world, stock would not be so good·-in fact, deben­tures '~ere a more convenient shape in ~>hich to hold our securities than stock. There would also be another advantage, that whilst stock would remain at the same value, deben­tures bought at a discount became more and more valuable. He believed that that would weigh a great deal with purcha~ers, and would be a great inducement to many to purchase the new loan. It might have been better to put the new loan on the market before the present Bill came into force per­haps, as sug;.;ested by the honorable member for East MoretoJl: and there was nothing to prevent that being done now, as the opera· tion of the Bill could be held over ; but he was not sure that it would be wise to issue new stock at the same time they were going to redeem the old. The honorable member had also remarked that too much power would be giyen to the agent, but it would be abso­lutely necessary to give that gentleman a great

:loans Consolidation Bill. [1 AUGUST.] Joint Library Committee. 817

deal of power. Still, however, he would be restricted by instructions, and would be told that unless he could sell at such a price, he need not sell at all. He did not see, after all, that the powers proposed to be given to him would be so very great ; i,hey were com­prised in the clauses from N.o. 3 to No. 6, the first of which gave him authority to hypo­thecate debentures; the next, that all moneys borrowed should be applied to the consolida­tion of the public loans, and to defraying the necessary expenses thereon; and the next gave authority to accept outstanding deben­tures in payment of debentures under the Bill. He did not see how less power could be given ; but it would be the duty of the Government to see that there was a very clear arrangement as to what .price the agent should be limited. He would have to sell according to the rate at which he could pur­chase, and he could not be more strictly tied down than that. He hoped the House would see its way clear to pass the Bill; there were one or two little alterations, which would have to be made to it in committee, but he could see nothing affecting the principle of the Bill. .

Mr. STEPHENS said that at that late hour he would not detain the House with a long speech upon this Bill. As he entirely approved of the consolidation of their loans, which it was the object of the Bill to accom­plish, he would support its second reading. He did not think, however, that the advan­tages which would be secured to the colony by the Bill as it stood, would be so great as the honorable the Colonial Treasurer had represented to the House that they would be; and he must say that he failed to see the correctness of some of the calculations which the honorable gentleman had placed before the House. The first clause of the Bill authorised the issue of debentures to the amount of four and a-half millions, to cover a present indebtedness under loans of £3,662,986, which would be an increase of £837,000 odd pounds on the present debt of the colony. His only reason for referring to that at the present time was, because he thought that the House ought to determine the limit of interest at which the debentures should be issued ; and he certainly thought that five per cent., as proposed in the Bill, was too high. He also considered that, by the Bill, too much power was proposed to be given to the agent who might be entrusted with the negotiation of the loan. The honor­able member (Mr. Stephens) then briefly ad verted to s0me of the calculations in the Treasurer's statement to which he had re­ferred, and expressed a hope that the honor­able gentleman, when the Bill was under consideration in committee, would furnish honorable members with more distinct in­formation as to the full scope and object of the Bill than they at present possessed.

Mr. BucHANAN Mr. JOHNSTON, ana Mr.

WIENHOLT supported the second reading of the Bill; but agreed in the opinion that the rate of interest should not exceed 4 per cent.

The CoLONIAL TREASURER said he was fully aware of the disadvantage at which honorable members were placed by his having brought on the second reading of this Bill at so late an hour of the evening. However, he had taken notes of some of the points of objection that had been raised, so that. he might be able when the House went mto committee, to give honorable members the information they desired.

The question, that the Bill be now read second time, was put and passed.