southeast alaska federal subsistence regional … · 2019. 11. 7. · phone: 907-243-0668 fax:...

SOUTHEAST SUBSISTENCE RAC MEETING 3

11/7/2019 SOUTHEAST RAC MEETING

Computer Matrix, LLC 135 Christensen Dr., Ste. 2., Anch. AK 99501

Phone: 907-243-0668 Fax: 907-243-1473

SOUTHEAST ALASKA FEDERAL SUBSISTENCE REGIONAL ADVISORY COUNCIL MEETING

PUBLIC MEETING

VOLUME III

Cape Fox Lodge

Ketchikan, Alaska November 7, 2019

8:30 a.m.

COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT:

Donald Hernandez, Chair Larry Bemis Michael Douville Harvey Kitka Ronald Leighton Cathy Needham Patricia Phillips Harold Robbins Robert Schroeder Elijah Winrod Frank Wright John Yeager

Regional Council Coordinator, DeAnna Perry

Recorded and transcribed by:

Computer Matrix Court Reporters, LLC 135 Christensen Drive, Suite 2 Anchorage, AK 99501 907-227-5312/[email protected]

mailto:907-227-5312/[email protected]




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1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 3 (Ketchikan, Alaska - 11/7/2019) 4 5 (On record) 6 7 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, good 8 morning. Welcome to the third and final day of the 9 Southeast Alaska Regional Advisory Council meeting.

10 I'd like to ask if there's anybody in the audience or 11 anybody on the phone that would like to give public 12 testimony this morning. 13 14 (No comments) 15 16 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: We do have one 17 public testimony but she's not here yet so we'll save 18 that and I guess we'll probably just get started. We 19 have a number of proposals that we still need to get 20 through and then the Roadless, the Alaska Roadless Rule 21 work group has some work product to kind of get some 22 discussion on the record today. And then we have our 23 Fisheries Resource Monitoring Program stuff that we 24 need to do. And then all of our agency reports. 25 26 So it should be a good fun-filled 27 packed day. 28 29 With that being said, the next proposal 30 that we want to take up this morning is going to be 31 Wildlife Proposal 20-12. 32 33 Mr. Suminski. 34 35 MR. SUMINSKI: Good morning, Ms. 36 Chairman. Council members. Terry Suminski with the 37 Forest Service. We have Rob Cross on the phone to 38 present this proposal. 39 40 Thank you. 41 42 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Great, thank 43 you. 44 45 Rob, if you're ready you can take it 46 away. 47 48 MR. CROSS: All right, thank you very 49 much. Thank you, Mr. Chair and Council members. My 50



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1 name is Robert Cross, I'm a Fish and Wildlife biologist 2 on the Tongass National Forest with the U.S. Forest 3 Service. The executive summary for WP20-12 can be 4 found on Page 281 of your books. 5 6 Wildlife Proposal 20-12 was submitted 7 by the Southeast Alaska Subsistence Regional Advisory 8 Council. The proposal requests that the deer season in 9 Unit 3, Mitkof, Woewodski, and Butterworth Islands be

10 extended from the existing October 15th to 31st season 11 to an October 1st through November 7th season. And 12 that the hunt area be revised to include that portion 13 of Kupreanof Island on the Lindenberg Peninsula east of 14 Portage Bay, Duncan Canal Portage. The proposal also 15 requests that the harvest limit terminology be revised 16 from antlered deer to buck in all of Unit 3. 17 18 The proponent states that deer 19 populations in the proposed hunt area could withstand 20 additional harvest opportunity based on local 21 observations of the deer population and Alaska 22 Department of Fish and Game, which led to the 2018 23 Alaska Board of Game action on State Proposal 45. The 24 proponent states that extending the season later in the 25 fall would correspond to cooler temperatures allowing 26 harvesters a greater amount of time to travel and 27 process deer before meat spoils. A key component of 28 this proposal is aligning Federal regulations with the 29 State. Currently the Federal regulations are more 30 restrictive than the State, both in season duration and 31 the requirement that a legal buck has antlers. 32 Aligning Federal and State harvest regulations would 33 allow for greater opportunity for Federally-qualified 34 subsistence users. Data suggests that deer density in 35 Unit 3 is below the State management goal, but deer 36 pellet surveys in Figure 2 on Page 286 of your 37 materials show that the population appears to be stable 38 in recent years. 39 40 The deer population in the proposed 41 area remains low despite the conservative one antlered 42 deer harvest limit and short season, suggesting that 43 the harvest is not the key driver for deer population 44 in the area. During the winters of 2006 and 2009, 45 above average snowfalls believe to have led to a 46 decline in the deer population. Deer harvest is used 47 as an index for deer density in Figure 5 on Page 289 of 48 your materials and suggests that there is a close 49 relationship between snow depths and deer population in



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1 the proposed area. 2 3 Based on the information, deer harvest 4 has partially rebounded in recent years despite no new 5 harvest regulations. 6 7 The OSM preliminary conclusion is to 8 support this proposal. 9

10 If this proposal is adopted, it would 11 lengthen the deer season from 16 to 38 days, which 12 would provide greater opportunity for Federally- 13 qualified subsistence users. The proposal would align 14 Federal and State deer hunting regulations for this 15 portion of Unit 3 reducing confusion among user groups 16 and making enforcement easier. No large increase in 17 harvest is expected as the harvest limit will remain 18 the same and the harvesters already have the ability to 19 hunt during this timeframe under State regulations. 20 Deer harvested under Federal designated hunter permits 21 has only averaged 11 percent of the total harvest in 22 Unit 3 over the past 15 years, however, harvest may 23 increase slightly due to the increased amount of time 24 that designated hunters will have to harvest for other 25 Federally-qualified subsistence users. 26 27 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 28 29 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 30 Cross. Do any Council members have any questions for 31 the U.S. Forest Service analysis -- or for the OSM 32 analysis. 33 34 (No comments) 35 36 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, 37 hearing none, do we have any report on consultation 38 with tribes or ANCSA Corporations regarding the 39 proposal -all right, before we get into consultation, 40 Mr. Douville has a question for Mr. Cross. 41 42 Mr. Douville. 43 44 MR. DOUVILLE: It looks like there is 45 probably Federal land or State lands in this area, if 46 Federal land is more restrictive at this point, and the 47 State has a regulation where it's more liberal, like 48 you're on Federal land, are they facing a restriction 49 because Federal land is more restrictive?



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1 MR. CROSS: Through the Chair. No, the 2 only restriction that they're facing right now, and 3 confusion, is that the current Federal season for 4 designated hunting is shorter than that of the State. 5 So they're still able to hunt the lengthened season for 6 the State, but we're having a lot of people come in and 7 expressing some confusion that they're not able to use 8 their designated hunting permits for the entire length 9 of the State season.

10 11 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank 12 you. Are there any other questions for Mr. Cross. 13 14 Ms. Phillips. 15 16 MS. PHILLIPS: Thank you, Chairman 17 Needham. So on this Page 283 it says under existing 18 State regulations under Unit 3, Petersburg management 19 area, two bucks -- oh, by bow and arrow only, so -- but 20 it puts the season at October 1 to December 15th, so 21 what is the regular -- what is the State season for 22 Unit 3 for a normal hunt. 23 24 MR. CROSS: Yes, through the Chair. 25 Member Phillips. So the regulation that ends -- 26 there's a few different regulations. One is for 27 Petersburg management area and that's close to the town 28 of Petersburg, but that's bow and arrow only, but for 29 the State, they've lengthened it from October 1st to 30 November 7th for the proposed area, which is Mitkof, 31 Woewodski, Butterworth Island, and then also the 32 Lindenberg Peninsula. So it's all the hunting area 33 that's within close proximity to Petersburg. 34 35 MS. PHILLIPS: Okay, thank you. 36 37 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, any 38 other questions for Mr. Cross from the Council. 39 40 (No comments) 41 42 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank 43 you. So back to tribal or ANCSA Corporation 44 consultation. 45 46 MR. LIND: Camai. (In Native) Hello 47 and good morning, Madame Chair. Council members. 48 Orville Lind, Native Liaison for the Office of 49 Subsistence Management.



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1 During the consultation session on 2 September 30th there were no questions or comments made 3 on Wildlife Proposal 20-12. 4 5 Thank you, Madame Chair. 6 7 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, very 8 much. Alaska Department of Fish and Game. 9

10 MR. SCOTT: Good morning, Madame Chair. 11 Members of the Council. This is Ryan Scott in Juneau 12 with the Department of Fish and Game. 13 14 The Department is in support of this 15 proposal for a couple of reasons. One, is it certainly 16 aligns both the State and the Federal seasons and as we 17 talked about yesterday, when we can do that, that's a 18 good thing for all the folks who are using the 19 resource. 20 21 The other part of this is somewhat 22 obvious. We, back in 2019, at the Board of Game 23 meeting in Petersburg, there was a lot of discussion 24 and deliberation over this proposal, and the users 25 definitely expressed the need -- or desire, excuse me 26 -- to have some additional opportunity. And even 27 looking at some of the population indices that you have 28 in the OSM analysis, you know, harvest numbers aren't 29 super high, however, pellet group indicators suggest, 30 you know, an increasing number of deer, we've began 31 some of the same work with Alpine surveys there and 32 Unit 3 is the -- it's ground zero for the new deer 33 research, trying to find a way to enumerate the 34 abundance of the animals. Between the Department and 35 the Board, we felt like that additional opportunity 36 could be obtained and so in doing that what we did was 37 lengthen the season there, and essentially the 38 Southeast Regional Advisory Council proposal mirrors 39 what the State -- or the proposal that the Board of 40 Game heard. 41 42 I'd also just like to touch on Member 43 Phillips' question about Unit 3 and how it's divvied 44 up. There's essentially -- there's three portions of 45 Game Management Unit 3 deer seasons and bag limits. As 46 Mr. Cross pointed out, the Petersburg management area 47 is right around town, it was put in place essentially 48 to provide opportunity to harvest some town deer. Some 49 places have black bears that are a pain when they're in



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1 town, other places have deer, so there's lots of deer 2 running around in Petersburg proper. And then the 3 island sections that fall within this proposal, Mitkof, 4 Woewodski, Butterworth Island, parts of Kupreanof 5 Island and the Lindenberg Peninsula, and then the 6 remainder of Unit 3, other portions of Kupreanof and 7 Kuiu, some of those other areas, really, the changes 8 that the Board put forth last year were to extend the 9 season, which pushes that season up into the rutting

10 time a little bit more and there was some concern about 11 that, but that opportunity appeared to be available and 12 the Board moved to provide that. 13 14 And for this proposal the Department 15 supports it. 16 17 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 18 Scott. 19 20 Mr. Hernandez. 21 22 MR. HERNANDEZ: Yeah, thank you, Ryan. 23 Also I notice that in the State regulations on the 24 Lindenberg Peninsula there's a provision there that 25 says for non-residents there is no open season. Can 26 you explain why the State has that regulation just on 27 the Lindenberg Peninsula and also note that that's not 28 reflected in our proposed Federal regulation and I'm 29 not sure why. 30 31 MR. SCOTT: Through the Chair. Member 32 Hernandez. Looking at even the harvest data and some of 33 the other indices, the Department doesn't feel like the 34 population, the deer population in that area, you know, 35 there's not a lot of animals, we don't feel like -- 36 it's not bursting at the seams, so to speak. And that 37 was the desire of folks in Unit 3 for sure, and that's 38 been in place for quite awhile and they wanted to keep 39 that non-resident restriction in place. Certainly -- 40 for two reasons, one; to benefit the residents there, 41 residents of Southeast Alaska, but certainly folks who 42 live and hunt in Unit 3, and, two; to be cautious. As 43 I mentioned there was a lot of debate about pushing the 44 season out another week just because of concerns with 45 deer behavior during the rutting season and this is -- 46 by extending it for a week, that was an incremental 47 step to provide additional opportunity and to maintain 48 that non-resident closure that was expressed by folks 49 in Unit 3, the Board felt like that was a wise



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1 allocation decision and at this time it's just to make 2 sure that the folks there, who live there and hunt 3 there really gain -- or reap the opportunity that's 4 available. 5 6 MR. HERNANDEZ: Okay, thank you. And 7 then, you know, a follow up. I don't know if it's, you 8 know, necessary for the Federal system to put that in 9 the regulation as well. I believe that non-residents

10 would fall under State harvest guidelines so by you 11 closing the season it'd essentially eliminate them from 12 the ability to hunt on Federal land as well, correct? 13 14 MR. SCOTT: Through the Chair. Member 15 Hernandez. That's how I read it as well. The Board of 16 Game made that allocation decision and non-residents 17 don't qualify as Federally-qualified users in the State 18 of Alaska so I think it's a moot point. 19 20 MR. HERNANDEZ: Okay, very good, thank 21 you. 22 23 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Are there any 24 other questions from Council members for Mr. Scott. 25 26 (No comments) 27 28 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank 29 you, Mr. Scott. Are there any -- is there a 30 presentation from any other Federal agencies? 31 32 MS. PERRY: No, Madame Chair. 33 34 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Tribal entities. 35 36 MS. PERRY: No, Madame Chair. 37 38 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Are there any 39 comments from other Regional Councils. 40 41 MS. PERRY: No. 42 43 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Fish and Game 44 Advisory Committees. 45 46 MS. PERRY: Not on this proposal. 47 48 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. Any 49 Subsistence Resource Commissions.



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1 MS. PERRY: No. 2 3 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Are there any 4 written public comments. 5 6 MS. PERRY: No, Madame Chair. 7 8 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Is there any 9 public testimony in the room or on the phone regarding

10 Wildlife Proposal 20-12. 11 12 (No comments) 13 14 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, 15 hearing none, what's the wish of the Council. 16 17 Mr. Hernandez. 18 19 MR. HERNANDEZ: I move to adopt 20 Wildlife Proposal 20-12. 21 22 MR. DOUVILLE: I will second. 23 24 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. It's 25 been moved and seconded to adopt Wildlife Proposal 20- 26 12. Now is the time for Council discussion. 27 28 Mr. Schroeder. 29 30 MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Madame 31 Chair. This is similar to many proposals that come 32 before the Council and it really has to do with us 33 matching, or attempting to match State seasons and 34 Federal seasons in certain areas. And because we have 35 different meeting schedules when we deal with proposals 36 for season lengths and other changes, we frequently are 37 out of align when a State season is lengthened, we need 38 action to match that. 39 40 So I think of these sorts of proposals 41 as almost being a housekeeping matter. I'd support 42 this proposal because it will avoid confusion in the 43 field and that it certainly wouldn't be our position to 44 have a Federal season that was more restrictive than 45 the State season. 46 47 Thank you. 48 49 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr.



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1 Schroeder. Are there any other comments or discussion 2 items from Council members. 3 4 Mr. Douville. 5 6 MR. DOUVILLE: Thank you, Cathy. I 7 will support this proposal. There is no conservation 8 concern although there is a smaller population. And it 9 appears to be supported biologically. It will benefit

10 subsistence users. It won't have any effect on anybody 11 else. 12 13 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. Are 14 there any other comments from Council members regarding 15 Wildlife Proposal 20-12. 16 17 MR. HERNANDEZ: Call for the question. 18 19 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Question's been 20 called. Those in -- oh, restate the motion. The 21 motion is to support Wildlife Proposal 20-12, all those 22 in favor signify by saying aye. 23 24 IN UNISON: Aye. 25 26 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All those 27 opposed, no. 28 29 (No opposing votes) 30 31 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Motion passes 32 unanimously. 33 34 So normally the first thing that we do 35 in the morning is we have public testimony and we do 36 have a blue card and I'd like to call on Shania Murphy 37 to ask if she's ready to give some public testimony 38 this morning. All right, it'll take a moment, it 39 sounds like we're going to get a slide presentation 40 ready. 41 42 Ms. Murphy, your blue card indicates 43 that you have a number of topics and one of the topics 44 is about the mountain goat season, which might be in 45 response to a wildlife proposal, so I'd offer at this 46 time that if you want to save that portion to when we 47 actually cover the wildlife proposal 20-14 we'll call 48 you back up during the public testimony piece to talk 49 about the mountain goat testimony. But the other



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1 topics on your blue card are free game during this 2 period of your public testimony this morning. 3 4 (Pause) 5 6 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Ms. Murphy, do 7 you have any like introductory stuff while Ms. -- oh, 8 it's coming up -- oh, there it is. 9

10 MS. MURPHY: I'm Shania Murphy. I'm 11 Alaska Native, I'm from (In Tlingit), so I'm from 12 Klawock and I attend tribal scholars here in Ketchikan. 13 It's a school run by KIC. And I wanted to talk about a 14 sort of bear problem. 15 16 This is what we found inside the 17 stomach of a bear when we did an necropsy on one. 18 19 So this is all plastic. There's Clorox 20 wipes, or some sort of disposal wipe. And all that's 21 plastic. And this is a really -- this is an easier 22 food source for these bears over anything. It's so 23 easy to them, all they have to do is knock over a 24 garbage can, it's not that hard. They do eat plastic. 25 The guy, Ross, from the Forest Service, was saying he's 26 seen bear scat with plastic in it. They digest it, 27 they push it through. But this particular bear did 28 not. And I've worked to help people secure garbage. I 29 live in Bear Valley and last summer I passed out about 30 30 KIC free bear (indiscernible) to all of Bear Valley 31 because, you know, there are tons of bears there and 32 the problem is really horrendous when -- the street 33 that I live on, right behind it, it just goes straight 34 back into Forest, there's nothing back there, it's just 35 Forest. So the bears come right through, they drag the 36 garbage right through my backyard and it's all over 37 down the ravine that goes into the marsh, pretty much. 38 39 So if you could go to the next slide. 40 41 You can see the little pattern of the 42 wipe and there was various different types of plastic, 43 a disposal wipe, grass and popcorn kernels was all that 44 was inside this bear's stomach. And it was shot by a 45 State Trooper in July, which is not the time you want 46 to be seeing this in a bear's stomach. They shouldn't 47 be eating this in July. 48 49 My question is -- or not a question,



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1 why do we continue to say, you know, we are not really 2 having a problem. There are some people who are saying 3 there's not a subsistence issue, they're not having 4 problems, yet, we're seeing bears with this issue; the 5 salmon are struggling, the deer are struggling, you 6 know, to survive, and we subsist off all these animals 7 and we're trying to subsist off them when they're just 8 struggling to maintain, you know, healthy numbers. And 9 I don't understand why more people are not moving

10 towards A; securing their garbage, and, B; actually 11 doing something to help these animals. Because, you 12 know, I see a lot of people who feel very strongly 13 about this but they don't come and talk at these 14 things, and they don't come and say anything, they 15 don't secure their garbage, they don't do all these 16 things. 17 18 Next slide. 19 20 And so this is the piece of plastic 21 that really hit me hard because that's sort of a 22 thicker plastic and it reminds me of something that my 23 parents would buy when I was younger, it would go over 24 the top -- it was like the see-through part of a -- 25 (indiscernible) bag, you know, the really heavy plastic 26 part that's see-through and you can't break it. And I 27 can't imagine being able to digest with that in my 28 stomach. And so when this bear was shot, it was really 29 skinny, it was dragging its back legs and the State 30 Trooper made the decision to shoot it. And that was 31 really impactful for me and I wanted to bring it up 32 here to talk about it because I feel like it's a really 33 big issue that we're not really focusing on. 34 35 Other things that I wanted to talk 36 about was my stance -- I'm sure some of you heard me 37 talk the other night at the 2001 Roadless Rule meeting. 38 Is that it's going to impact subsistence a lot. And he 39 has all those other options, the Secretary of State 40 [sic], has all those other options and he's choosing to 41 absolutely remove the Roadless Rule, which just doesn't 42 make any sense. If you want certain things, you're 43 going to choose a different option,but completely 44 removing the Roadless Rule doesn't make any sense 45 subsistence-wise, because it's going to impact 46 subsistence so hard it's not even going to -- it's 47 going to be laughable. And, you know, right now 48 everything's struggling, and -- from what I see. I'm 49 only 15. But all of it's struggling and I don't -- I



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1 can't support it. 2 3 You know, Alaska's warming two times 4 faster than the rest of the Lower 48, and 16 Federally- 5 recognized tribes don't endorse Alternative 6, which is 6 completely removing the Roadless Rule. And have any of 7 you been to Ward Cove, you've seen it, where they want 8 to put the dock. I believe somebody mentioned that it 9 went up to 55 degrees this summer, the water in there.

10 And if you've ever seen the water inside Ward Cove, 11 there's a layer of sand, and there's just fungus, it's 12 white, it's white down there, it doesn't look nice. 13 There's just sand, there's nothing growing, and right 14 on the mouth of Ward Cove there is sea life, there are 15 coral -- there's a coral reef and there's fish over 16 there. But when you look at the bottom of Ward Cove, 17 you don't see much that's very nice and that was 18 because of the pulp mill that was there. And when you 19 think about doing that to different portions of 20 Southeast Alaska by allowing the Roadless Rule to be 21 overturned, how can we continue to subsist off the land 22 and continue with our way of life when we're doing the 23 same thing that we did to Ward Cove all over the place. 24 It's just -- it's not going to be sustainable. It's, 25 you know, the salmon are just coming back after so many 26 years of the water there being horrendous, and, you 27 know, they're still trying to mess with it, with the 28 Ward Cove dock. 29 30 As a youth subsistence user, this is my 31 future, bears eating plastic. Deer not doing well. 32 The salmon not doing well. This is going to be the 33 majority of my life, you know, not anybody else's, this 34 is going to be the majority, I'm going to have to deal 35 with this for a long time because I'm only 15 and I'm 36 going to live, you know, and it's just -- it hurts when 37 I see stuff like this and it hurts coming to these 38 meetings and listening to people say, oh, well, there's 39 no -- there's not going to be any impact when we do 40 this or that or it's going to be very marginal, or it's 41 not going to be there at all and then it happens and 42 there's a lot of impact and then they want to keep 43 denying it. 44 45 And I just wanted to come up here and 46 ask all of you to please support conserving the Tongass 47 and all of the wildlife in it instead of trying to 48 degrade it. 49



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1 That's all I have to say. 2 3 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Great. Thank 4 you, Ms. Murphy. Mr. Hernandez, a question or comment 5 for Ms. Murphy. 6 7 MR. HERNANDEZ: Not a question but a 8 comment. You know what you're talking about, Shania, 9 is food security, we're concerned about our food

10 security. There are a lot of animal species that are 11 obviously having a lot of problems with their food 12 security as well. What you pointed out there is an 13 example. 14 15 We've heard other examples. 16 17 Some of the things I've heard is the 18 malnutrition that's being observed in the whale 19 populations. I can personally attest to what's 20 happening with sea bird populations, you know, as a 21 commercial fisherman, I think Ms. Phillips mentioned it 22 as well. We're just seeing far fewer sea birds out on 23 the waters from what we've seen, you know, in my 24 lifetime. Talking to some of the students from Sitka, 25 I think they know people that work at the Raptor Center 26 over there in Sitka and they're seeing far more 27 malnourished eagles show up at the Raptor Center 28 because they're having a hard time eating, finding 29 food. 30 31 So that's food security. 32 33 And it concerns us all and what you're 34 seeing are indicators and, you know, the canary and the 35 coal mine scenario. So I thank you for bring that to 36 our attention and, yes, we're aware of it, for sure, 37 and that's part of why we ask for some of the things 38 we're asking for here. 39 40 So thank you. 41 42 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. Are 43 there any other questions or comments for Ms. Murphy. 44 45 Ms. Phillips. 46 47 MS. PHILLIPS: Thank you, Chairman 48 Needham. Did they tell you what age that bear was?



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1 MS. MURPHY: It was not a young bear. 2 It was definitely an adult but she wasn't very -- she 3 wasn't elderly, or old, she was still pretty small, 4 from about here to here. 5 6 MS. PHILLIPS: Was it a black bear 7 or..... 8 9 MS. MURPHY: Yes, black bear.

10 11 MS. PHILLIPS: Thank you. 12 13 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Mr. Leighton. 14 15 MR. LEIGHTON: Yes, thank you, Chair. 16 Do you know if the debris is coming from garbage cans 17 or are they -- have they breached the fence around the 18 garbage dump? 19 20 MS. MURPHY: So this bear was shot out 21 north, it was dragging its back legs so I don't think 22 it could have made it from the dump, all the way out 23 north. And I've seen a lot of unsecured garbage cans 24 out north so that's an assumption, but I don't doubt 25 that there are bears who have consumed plastic from the 26 dump. 27 28 MR. LEIGHTON: Thank you. 29 30 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. Mr. 31 Wright and then Mr. Douville. 32 33 MR. WRIGHT: Thank you, Madame Chair. 34 It's encouraging to see young people come up here and 35 testify in front of us about things that are happening 36 in this world. 37 38 You know, in Hoonah we used to have a 39 herring spawn right outside of Hoonah, just around 40 there but then logging came into play and now there's 41 no herring spawn. You know, so another thing is that 42 on my boat we don't throw any garbage overboard or they 43 deal with me. You know I remember I heard some kind of 44 news from Seward or something about birds that -- sea 45 birds that were -- and it was 100 percent of them 46 having plastic inside them. You know so plastic's a 47 bad thing for our environment. It's even bad for boats 48 because we suck it in and you can burn your motor up.



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1 It's hard to understand how we, as a 2 human race, can deal with things that -- know that it's 3 hurting our environment, it's just money, you know, so, 4 you know, everybody knows it's just money. So it's 5 encouraging to see you here and I'm hoping that you -- 6 the young people, like from Sitka, too, the young 7 ladies that are there, can deal with, and keep pushing 8 issues like this because you are -- you know, I heard a 9 lady speak in that subsistence hearing the other day

10 and she says, it's going to be a long time, you know, 11 and I was sitting there thinking, you know, in my short 12 time on this Earth, it hasn't been very long, and the 13 young people like you and the other younger people that 14 speak, how much longer do we have to deal with this, 15 you know, because like I said, I've been here a short 16 time and I'm seeing where it's changed considerably. I 17 mean my goodness it's, like I said, you know, my 18 daughter used to jump off our porch into the snow and 19 now we don't even have snow in Hoonah, there used to be 20 10 feet. 21 22 So I'm hoping that we have more young 23 people like you to yell at the people that are making 24 these kinds of decisions and just say, come on you guys 25 listen to us, it's our world too. 26 27 Gunalcheesh for being here. 28 29 MS. MURPHY: Thank you. 30 31 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Mr. Douville. 32 33 MR. DOUVILLE: Thank you. Madame Chair. 34 I really appreciate you coming here and talking to us, 35 we share a lot of your concerns. As far as these 36 bears, once they start being garbage bears, they don't 37 stop and people must be responsible It's the people's 38 fault, really, because they're not securing their 39 garbage. And it's really important. We have the same 40 problem in Craig. And it's just appalling what these 41 bears can eat and still survive. It just boggles my 42 mind. I wouldn't think any animal could do that. I've 43 even seen plastic in wolf scat clear up on a mountain 44 so where it came from I don't know. 45 46 But as far as the Roadless issue, we 47 are concerned and we are working on a proper response. 48 I don't believe that anybody sitting in this meeting 49 here that are RAC members support any portion of it.



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1 But the environment has changed, considerable from when 2 I was your age, I never used to worry about it, but 3 since the '70s it's just been changing so fast. It's 4 different now. A lot of things are different. And 5 none of it's any good. So this Roadless thing has -- 6 if it goes away it has the ability to make drastic 7 change, not only in our water quality which we need 8 cold, clear water to raise fish, we don't have to do 9 anything else, they'll raise themselves, just leave

10 them along in a good environment. 11 12 So I am really worried. 13 14 Hopefully more of your generation will 15 pursue this and resist. 16 17 Thank you. 18 19 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. 20 21 Mr. Schroeder. 22 23 MR. SCHROEDER: Shania, thanks much for 24 coming to us and we obviously appreciate your efforts. 25 26 I'm going to say you've got to double- 27 down and it's time to do more. 28 29 With respect to the Roadless Rule, 30 you've testified, I really encourage you to get your 31 comments in there, in writing, because where Forest 32 Service plans go, whether they're good, bad or 33 indifferent, they always go to appeal and that means, 34 legal appeal in this case, because there is no 35 administrative appeal, and if you've got your comments 36 in there you're a player, and you can join the appeal 37 when it takes place. 38 39 So whatever you've done so far, do 10 40 times more. 41 42 MS. MURPHY: Thank you. 43 44 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. Are 45 there any other questions or comments for Ms. Murphy. 46 47 (No comments) 48 49 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Do you have any



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1 parting words? 2 3 MS. MURPHY: No, I'm good. 4 5 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Well, I really 6 appreciate you coming up here and bringing the issues 7 before us. For us to be able to hear from -- on any 8 issue, from the public, it really helps us in the work 9 that we do and so thank you for taking the time to do

10 that and we'll see you again on Wildlife Proposal 20- 11 14. 12 13 MS. MURPHY: Thank you. 14 15 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right. 16 We're going to move back into proposals. The next one 17 we have is Wildlife Proposal 20-10, to revise the 18 customary and traditional use determination for black 19 bear in Units 1, 3, 3 and 5. It looks like we have Ms. 20 Kenner today. 21 22 MS. KENNER: Thank you, Ms. Chair. 23 Members of the Council. My name is Pippa Kenner and 24 I'm an anthropologist at the Office of Subsistence 25 Management in Anchorage, Alaska. 26 27 The analysis of the proposal begins on 28 Page 217 of your Council books and there are a couple 29 of Council books left on the back table if somebody 30 would like to follow along. I'm going to present a 31 summary of the analysis. 32 33 The Southeast Alaska Council submitted 34 Proposal 20-10 requesting a customary and traditional 35 use determination for black bears in Units 1, 2, 3 and 36 5 by all rural residents of Southeast Alaska including 37 Yakutat. Unit 4 was not included in the request and 38 black bears are not found in Unit 4. 39 40 The Council states that customary and 41 traditional use determinations carried over from State 42 management were inappropriately narrow and that rural 43 residents of Southeast Alaska have a long history of 44 obtaining fish and wildlife from throughout the region. 45 Subsistence users have frequently traveled far from 46 home within the region to obtain subsistence resources 47 continuously since prehistoric times. The Council 48 further states subsistence users access these areas by 49 plane, boats, all terrain vehicles, et cetera. Black



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1 bears provide not only nutritional value for families 2 but for many there is a deep-seated cultural 3 connection. The proponent continued subsistence users 4 have passed hunting, processing and preservation 5 knowledge down for generations. This resource is 6 frequently shared within and among Southeast Alaska 7 communities and sustains the regional mix subsistence 8 cash economy. Harvest and sharing of black bears in 9 recent times has been frequently documented in

10 subsistence harvest surveys, harvest ticket reporting 11 and in testimony at Council meetings and at local State 12 Advisory Committee meetings. 13 14 The proponent concludes there is 15 additional data available in published literature from 16 various authors. It is clear that a long-term pattern 17 of use throughout the region exists for black bears and 18 that rural residents of Southeast Alaska continue to 19 rely on black bears to meet their subsistence needs. 20 Black bears provide substantial cultural, economic, 21 social and nutritional elements to meet subsistence 22 needs. 23 24 So that was the Council's justification 25 for submitting the proposal. 26 27 Now, I'm going to move quickly through 28 regulatory history. 29 30 So at the beginning of the Federal 31 Subsistence Management Program in Alaska in 1992, the 32 Board adopted the State's customary and traditional use 33 determinations in Units 1 through 5 into Federal 34 regulations. The State did not recognize customary and 35 traditional uses of black bears in most of Southeast 36 Alaska except in Unit 1C. The Board determined that 37 lacking a determination then all rural residents would 38 be eligible to hunt bears under Federal regulations 39 until the Board adopted customary and traditional use 40 determinations for the rest of Southeast Alaska. So 41 the Board adopted a customary and traditional use 42 determination for black bears in Unit 5 in 1997 and 43 expanded the customary and traditional use 44 determination in Unit 1C in 1998. 45 46 Now, I'm going to move to a discussion 47 of the eight factors. 48 49 So customary and traditional uses by



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1 rural residents of a community or area is generally 2 exemplified through eight factors in regulation, that 3 include, a pattern of use, excluding interruptions 4 beyond the control of rural residents of an area, near 5 or reasonable accessible from the community or area. 6 Also when a proposal requests a customary and 7 traditional use determination where none has been made 8 previously such as in many areas of Southeast Alaska 9 right now, the Board evaluates use by all rural

10 residents of Alaska. 11 12 Both sealing records and harvest ticket 13 returns indicate that rural residents of Southeast 14 Alaska have harvested almost all, that's 95 percent, of 15 black bear harvest reported by rural residents of 16 Alaska in Units 1 through 5. Additionally, non- 17 residents of Alaska take about half, or 55 percent of 18 reported black bear harvest in Southeast Alaska 19 primarily in Units 2 and 3 and we'll discuss this more 20 later in the presentation. 21 22 So moving quickly through the analysis. 23 24 If this proposal, 20-10, is adopted, 25 only rural residents of Southeast Alaska will be 26 eligible to harvest black bears under Federal 27 regulations, seasons, harvest limits, and gear types 28 and permits in Units 1, 2, 3 and 5. 29 30 The OSM preliminary conclusion is to 31 support Proposal 20-10 with the following 32 justification. 33 34 So including the local traditional 35 knowledge that was included in the proposal that was 36 submitted, that I read at the beginning of the 37 presentation, other rural communities in Alaska for 38 which an attempt to harvest black bears is documented, 39 but which are outside of Southeast Alaska are not 40 included in this conclusion. These communities are not 41 in reasonable proximity to Units 1, 2, 3 or 5, the area 42 under consideration in this proposal. It's documented 43 that black bears have traditionally been used by rural 44 residents of Southeast Alaska as an important source of 45 food, clothing, grease and fat. Black bear hide, fat 46 and claws were common trade items. There's been a long 47 history of harvesting black bears for their furs, 48 especially for the Russian market where black bear 49 hides were made into outer garments and held prestige.



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1 Black bear harvests are widely shared in the region, 2 within and between communities. This is an indication 3 of their value, their discontinuance occurrence in the 4 region and the large quantity of meat provided by one 5 animal. Yakutat, situated in Unit 5A is separated from 6 other areas of Southeast Alaska by a long expanse of 7 coastline, however, residents still demonstrate hunting 8 effort in distant areas of Southeast Alaska, so they 9 will be included in the determination.

10 11 Additionally, organized communities are 12 not present in Units 1B and 5B, and hunting effort is 13 occasionally reported by people living outside of an 14 organized community. Low human populations in these 15 areas is limiting demonstrated hunter effort by 16 residents of these areas but we're still recommending 17 that you include residents of potential and existing 18 residents of these areas in the conclusion, in the 19 customary and traditional use determination. 20 21 Another factor possibly affecting 22 patterns of black bear use is competition with other 23 hunters. The number of rural Southeast Alaska 24 residents using Units 2 and 3 to harvest black bears is 25 much smaller than the group of other hunters who visit 26 Units 2 and 3 in large numbers. Units 2 and 3 offer 27 the better black bear habitat and abundance than other 28 units, but rural Southeast Alaska residents must 29 compete with other hunters, a factor that may dissuade 30 them from traveling to Units 2 and 3. Additionally, 31 currently black bears are rare in Unit 5B because it's 32 dominated by the Malaspina Glacier and, therefore, few 33 harvest have been reported there. 34 35 Finally, the Southeast Council has 36 requested that the Board consider customary and 37 traditional use determinations broadly and inclusively 38 and therefore all rural residents of Southeast Alaska 39 should be included in a customary and traditional use 40 determination for black bears in Southeast Alaska, 41 Units 1, 2, 3 and 5. 42 43 Thank you, Ms. Chair, for your 44 attention and I'm done with my presentation. I'm 45 available to answer questions. 46 47 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, very 48 much. Are there any questions for Pippa Kenner. 49



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1 Ms. Phillips. 2 3 MS. PHILLIPS: Thank you, Chairman 4 Needham. Very good analysis, thank you. I'm real 5 impressed with it. 6 7 So on 4, at the top, it says: 8 The Board makes customary and traditional use 9 determinations for the sole purpose of recognizing the

10 pool of users who generally exhibit the eight factors. 11 The Board does not use such determinations for resource 12 management or restricting harvest. If a conservation 13 concern exists for a particular population the Board 14 addresses that concern through the imposition of 15 harvest limits or season restrictions, rather than by 16 limiting customary and traditional use findings. 17 18 I find that to be a key statement in 19 this analysis. 20 21 And could you state it another way. 22 23 MS. KENNER: Yes. The purpose of -- 24 again, this is Pippa Kenner with OSM. The purpose of 25 customary and traditional use determinations is to help 26 the Council and the Board identify customary and 27 traditional uses that will be provided the rural 28 subsistence priority. That's it. It's just to 29 identify the pool of users. 30 31 It does -- we do not look at 32 conservation concerns or hunting competition when we're 33 evaluating subsistence uses of an area. This is like 34 the basis of the Federal Subsistence Management 35 Program. 36 37 Then, after the pool of users has been 38 identified, broadly and inclusively, the Council and 39 the Board adopt hunting regulations that can limit 40 harvest by Federally-qualified subsistence users and it 41 can also actually go to what we call a Section .804 42 determination which is an evaluation of the Federally- 43 qualified users who are most heavily dependent on the 44 resource, and this is a process where we can exclude 45 some Federally-qualified users in favor of those who 46 are most dependent on the resource and then provide 47 them, a limited group of people, with an opportunity. 48 And that's not the process we're doing now when we're 49 doing the customary and traditional use determination



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1 process. 2 3 Thank you. 4 5 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Ms. 6 Kenner. Are there other questions for Pippa Kenner 7 regarding the proposal. 8 9 Mr. Hernandez.

10 11 MR. HERNANDEZ: Yeah, thank you. So in 12 the existing regulation, the customary and traditional 13 use determination, there is several units, Units 1A, 14 1B, 1D and Units 2 and 3 where all rural residents are 15 included in customary and traditional use, and that's 16 all rural residents in the state of Alaska, correct? 17 18 MS. KENNER: Yes. Thank you, Ms. 19 Chair. Yes, that is all rural residents of Alaska. 20 21 MR. HERNANDEZ: Right. And in the new 22 regulation that will no longer be the case, it will 23 only be Units 1, 2 -- or rural residents of Units 1 24 through 5. So we're kind of changing the regulation to 25 essentially exclude, you know, the population of the 26 rest of the state for a C&T, I mean I guess my concern 27 is, you know, that would be viewed as a restriction to 28 some users, but I think I want to kind of allay that 29 with a little explanation from you, all rural residents 30 included, that's kind of there by default, essentially, 31 right, because there was no -- I think you said there 32 was no positive C&T determination for local populations 33 in those areas, is that how that come about? 34 35 MS. KENNER: Thank you, Madame Chair. 36 This is Pippa Kenner with OSM. 37 38 So, yes, in the State system, if there 39 is no customary and traditional use determination for a 40 resource in an area, such as black bear in Units 2 and 41 3, then you were not -- the Board of Fish and the Board 42 of Game were not able to adopt subsistence regulations 43 in that area. Their first had to be a customary and 44 traditional use determination. So in most of these, 45 so-called negative determinations, or no determinations 46 came over into Federal regulations. ANILCA doesn't 47 allow for a negative determination, and so the Board 48 considered it and said these determinations all rural 49 residents of Alaska would be eligible until a process



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1 for determining customary and traditional uses was 2 established. And they did establish a system for 3 conducting that and over time they decided, instead, 4 they would accept proposals to adopt customary and 5 traditional use determinations through the regulatory 6 cycles for fish and wildlife, so they would be coming 7 at different times from different areas from requesting 8 individuals. 9

10 MR. HERNANDEZ: So that's what we're 11 doing now, correct? 12 13 MS. KENNER: Yes. 14 15 MR. HERNANDEZ: Thank you, very much. 16 17 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank 18 you. Are there any other questions for Ms. Kenner. 19 20 (No comments) 21 22 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Hearing none, 23 any report on Board consultation from tribes or ANCSA 24 Corporations. 25 26 MR. LIND: Morning, Madame Chair. 27 Council members. During the consultation session there 28 were no questions or comments on Wildlife Proposal 20- 29 10. 30 31 Thank you, Madame Chair. 32 33 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, very 34 much. Agency comments. Are there comments from Alaska 35 Department of Fish and Game. 36 37 (No comments) 38 39 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, 40 hearing none, are there comments from other Federal 41 agencies. 42 43 MR. SCOTT: Madame Chair. This is Ryan 44 with Fish and Game, sorry I wasn't fast enough to hit 45 the button. 46 47 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Understood. 48 Please proceed, Mr. Scott. 49



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1 MR. SCOTT: All right, thank you, 2 Ma'am. The Department is neutral on this proposal. 3 Seeing the move to find -- to establish the C&T for 4 black bears in Southeast Alaska is appropriate. We 5 believe and at this point we're not aware of any other 6 wildlife proposals specific to black bear hunts for 7 Federally-qualified hunters. This proposal will have 8 little effect without some additional action taken by 9 the Federal Subsistence Board. The Department's

10 neutral. 11 12 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank 13 you for that. 14 15 Are there any questions for Mr. Scott 16 from Council members. 17 18 (No comments) 19 20 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, 21 hearing none. Were there any agency comments from 22 other Federal agencies. 23 24 MS. PERRY: No, Madame Chair. 25 26 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Comments from 27 tribal entities. 28 29 MS. PERRY: No, Madame Chair. 30 31 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Any comments 32 from other Regional Councils. 33 34 MS. PERRY: No. 35 36 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Any comments 37 from Fish and Game Advisory Committees. 38 39 MS. PERRY: Yes, Madame Chair. One 40 written public comment in opposition was received on 41 this proposal. It can be found in your meeting book 42 starting on Page 233. This comment was from the 43 Ketchikan Advisory Committee and states: 44 45 Hunting of black bear is not customary 46 and traditional in all units residing in the Southeast. 47 48 That was the only comment from a Fish 49 and Game Advisory Committee.



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1 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. Any 2 comments from Subsistence Resource Commissions. 3 4 MS. PERRY: Yes, Madame Chair. The 5 Wrangell-St. Elias National Park Subsistence Resource 6 Commission supports this proposal and states: 7 8 The proposed change will benefit 9 subsistence users by making the regulations more

10 uniform for communities in the region, less complex 11 regulations will be easier for subsistence users to 12 follow. 13 14 That was the end of their comment. 15 16 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank 17 you. Any written public comments. 18 19 MS. PERRY: No, Madame Chair. Other 20 than the Ketchikan Advisory Committee. 21 22 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. Is 23 there any public testimony, either in the room or on 24 the phone regarding Wildlife Proposal 20-10. 25 26 (No comments) 27 28 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, 29 hearing none, what is the wish of the Council on the 30 proposal. 31 32 Mr. Hernandez. 33 34 MR. HERNANDEZ: I move to adopt 35 Wildlife Proposal 20-10. 36 37 MR. YEAGER: Second. 38 39 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: It's been moved 40 and seconded to adopt Wildlife Proposal 20-10 and now 41 is the time for discussion regarding the proposal 42 amongst Council members. 43 44 Mr. Hernandez. 45 46 MR. HERNANDEZ: Thank you, Ms. Needham. 47 So obviously the intent of the Council in this proposal 48 was to essentially, you know, continue on our job of 49 making good rationale customary and traditional use



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1 determinations and we really required, you know, a good 2 analysis of what the uses were on this, the black bear 3 species, throughout the region. And now that we've 4 received that very good information, very thorough, so 5 we can certainly make a good decision on this now. 6 7 So that's what I have to say. 8 9 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank

10 you. Any other comments from Council members. 11 12 MS. PHILLIPS: Madame Chair. 13 14 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Ms. Phillips. 15 16 MS. PHILLIPS: Thank you, Chairman 17 Needham. This will simplify management of subsistence 18 resources, specifically this proposal is a customary 19 and traditional use determination for black bear in 20 Units 1 through 5. And any time we can simplify things 21 it's really for the best of all subsistence users in 22 the region. 23 24 Thank you. 25 26 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Ms. 27 Phillips. 28 29 Mr. Schroeder. 30 31 MR. SCHROEDER: I'll be supporting this 32 proposal and this is in line with really a lot of work 33 that this Council has done to revise -- to come up with 34 an intelligent revision of C&T determinations. As the 35 analysis points out very clearly, we have had a lot of 36 C&T determinations that have been on the books that 37 were inherited from when the State was managing fish 38 and wildlife on Federal lands. The general course of 39 the State C&T determinations were to limit subsistence 40 harvest and limit subsistence eligibility. Our Council 41 didn't agree with that, didn't see that as a fair 42 reading or that that was the intention of ANILCA. 43 44 Following on what Ms. Phillips says, 45 this greatly simplifies regulation, eligibility for 46 participating in subsistence hunts and is a benefit 47 subsistence users. 48 49 So I think our whole suite of C&T



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1 proposals in this meeting will have basically the same 2 justifications. So I'll support this proposal. 3 4 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 5 Schroeder. 6 7 Any other comments from Council members 8 regarding the proposal. 9

10 (No comments) 11 12 MR. HERNANDEZ: Call for the question. 13 14 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. The 15 question's been called. The motion on the floor is to 16 support Wildlife Proposal WP20-10, which requests a 17 customary and traditional use determination for black 18 bears in Units 1, 2, 3 and 5 by rural residents of 19 Units 1 through 5. All in favor of the proposal, 20 signify by saying aye. 21 22 IN UNISON: Aye. 23 24 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All opposed, say 25 nay. 26 27 (No opposing votes) 28 29 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Motion carries 30 unanimously. Next up we have Wildlife Proposal 20-11. 31 Ms. Kenner. 32 33 MS. KENNER: Thank you, Madame Chair. 34 Members of the Council. My name is Pippa Kenner again, 35 and I am an anthropologist at OSM. 36 37 The analysis for this proposal begins 38 on Page 246 of your Council books. The Southeast 39 Alaska submitted Proposal 20-11 requesting a customary 40 and traditional use determination for brown bears in 41 Units 1, 3, 4 and 5 for all rural residents of 42 Southeast Alaska, including Yakutat. Unit 2 was not 43 included in the request and brown bears are not found 44 In Unit 2. 45 46 Now, the discussion for this proposal 47 is essentially the same as for the previous proposal. 48 The Council uses its knowledge of local patterns and 49 talks about people using brown bear for subsistence,



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1 for nutrition, to trade in parts for making 2 handicrafts, the handing down of knowledge from 3 generation to generation, the frequent documentation of 4 harvesting, evidence in ethnographic literature of the 5 use and importance of brown bear throughout the region. 6 7 I'm going to move quickly through the 8 regulatory history. 9

10 So we have a similar situation as with 11 the previous proposal. At the beginning of the Federal 12 Subsistence Management Program in Alaska in 1992, the 13 Board adopted the State's customary and traditional use 14 determinations into regulations and since then the 15 customary and traditional use determination for brown 16 bears in Unit 1 was expanded in 1996 and 1998. 17 18 Quickly through the eight factors. 19 20 Customary and traditional uses by rural 21 residents of a community or area is generally 22 exemplified through eight factors in regulation, and 23 include, a pattern of use, excluding interruptions 24 beyond the control of rural residents of an area. 25 26 Quickly go through some evidence of use 27 from the harvest reporting system. 28 29 Sealing records indicate rural 30 Southeast Alaska residents have taken one in five, or 31 20 percent of brown bear harvest reported in Southeast 32 Alaska since 1960. Additionally, non-residents of 33 Alaska took over half, or 56 percent of reported brown 34 bear harvest in Southeast Alaska during that period, 35 primarily in Unit 4, and we're going to discuss this 36 more later in the presentation. 37 38 So the effects of this proposal. 39 40 If this proposal, 20-11, is adopted 41 only rural residents of Southeast Alaska will be 42 eligible to harvest brown bears under Federal 43 regulations, seasons, harvest limits, gear types and 44 permits in Units 1, 3, 4 and 5. 45 46 OSM's preliminary conclusion is to 47 support Proposal 20-11 with the following 48 justification. 49



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1 The Council has noted that at the 2 beginning of the Federal Subsistence Management 3 Program, the Board adopted a patchwork of State 4 customary and traditional use determinations that 5 overlooked many rural Southeast Alaska communities and 6 their subsistence uses. So along with the local 7 traditional knowledge in the original request, it's 8 documented that brown bears have traditionally been 9 used in Southeast Alaska as an important source of

10 food, clothing, grease and fat, and there is a long 11 history of harvesting brown bears for their furs, 12 however the commercial use of brown bears is generally 13 no longer legal. 14 15 Rural residents from throughout 16 Southeast Alaska are presented in hunter effort in 17 every management unit, and, additionally rural 18 communities situated in each of Units 1 through 4 have 19 demonstrating hunting effort in most of the subunits 20 based on sealing records, and permit reports. We have 21 the same information about the situation of Yakutat 22 being separated from the rest of Southeast Alaska, yet 23 still showing use throughout Southeast Alaska. We have 24 the same information about Units 1B and 5B, having low 25 populations, we have similar statements about 26 competition in some units with other hunters that have 27 discouraged -- possibly discouraged Federally-qualified 28 users from hunting in those units and therefore use in 29 those units may have been larger without that 30 competition. 31 32 And we also have the statement about 33 the Council requesting the Board to adopt 34 determinations more broadly -- in a broad and inclusive 35 manner. And the conclusion, therefore, is that all 36 rural residents of Southeast Alaska, Units 1 through 5, 37 should be included in a customary and traditional use 38 determination for brown bears in Southeast Alaska, 39 Units 1, 3, 4 and 5. 40 41 Thank you, Madame Chair, that's the end 42 of my presentation. 43 44 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Ms. 45 Kenner. Are there any questions for Ms. Kenner 46 regarding the proposal. 47 48 Mr. Schroeder.



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1 MR. SCHROEDER: Pippa, I just wanted to 2 applaud your analysis, it's really good. And I will 3 note that you did use the Thornton Report from 1992, 4 which was a pretty good look at traditional use of 5 brown bears in Southeast Alaska. At that time there 6 was a lot of questions were being raised about, well, 7 did Tlingit in Southeast Alaska actually use brown 8 bears and what were the cultural parameters of that, 9 and, so that's pretty much established Tom's report at

10 that time. 11 12 Thank you. 13 14 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 15 Schroeder. Are there any other questions for Ms. 16 Kenner on the proposal. 17 18 (No comments) 19 20 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right. 21 Report on Board consultations from tribes and ANCSA 22 Corporations. 23 24 MR. LIND: Madame Chair. Orville Lind, 25 Native Liaison, Office of Subsistence Management. 26 During the consultation session there were no questions 27 or comments on the Wildlife Proposal. 28 29 Thank you, Madame Chair. 30 31 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank 32 you. Are there any agency comments from Alaska 33 Department of Fish and Game. 34 35 MR. SCHUMACHER: Hello, this is Tom 36 Schumacher calling in from Douglas. The Department's 37 neutral on this proposal because it will result in no 38 real change in hunting or harvest opportunity. 39 40 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 41 Schumacher. Are there any questions or comments for 42 Mr. Schumacher on the proposal. 43 44 (No comments) 45 46 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Any comments 47 from other Federal agencies. 48 49 MS. PERRY: No, Madame Chair.



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1 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Comments from 2 tribal entities. 3 4 MS. PERRY: No. 5 6 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Advisory Group 7 comments. Are there any comments from other Regional 8 Councils. 9

10 MS. PERRY: No, Madame Chair. 11 12 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Fish and Game 13 Advisory Committees. 14 15 MS. PERRY: Yes. One written public 16 comment in opposition was received on this proposal 17 from the Ketchikan Advisory Committee. That can be 18 found starting on Page 363 of your meeting book. It 19 simply states: 20 21 Hunting of brown bear is not customary 22 and traditional in all units residing in Southeast. 23 24 That was the only comment received from 25 Fish and Game Advisory Committees. 26 27 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. Are 28 there any comments from Subsistence Resource 29 Commissions. 30 31 MS. PERRY: Yes, Madame Chair. The 32 Wrangell-St. Elias National Park Subsistence Resource 33 Commission supports this proposal, stating: 34 35 The proposed change will benefit 36 subsistence users by making the regulations more 37 uniform for communities in the region. Less complex 38 regulations will be easier for subsistence users to 39 follow. 40 41 The was the only Subsistence Resource 42 Commission comment received. 43 44 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. Are 45 there any written public comments. 46 47 MS. PERRY: None, other than those 48 submitted from the Ketchikan Advisory Committee. 49



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1 Madame Chair. 2 3 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. Are 4 there any public testimony from members in the room or 5 on the telephone. 6 7 (No comments) 8 9 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Hearing none,

10 what's the wish of the Council on Proposal 20-11. 11 12 Mr. Yeager. 13 14 MR. YEAGER: Thank you, Madame Chair. 15 Move to adopt Wildlife Proposal 20-11. 16 17 MR. KITKA: Second. 18 19 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: It's been moved, 20 and seconded by Harvey to adopt Wildlife Proposal 20- 21 11. Discussion from Council members. 22 23 Mr. Hernandez. 24 25 MR. HERNANDEZ: Thank you, Ms. Needham. 26 Pretty much the same discussion on this proposal as the 27 previous one. The Council's intent was to increase the 28 opportunity for subsistence users throughout Southeast 29 Alaska. We needed a good analysis on the customary and 30 traditional uses in order to, you know, make this 31 proposal, and now we have that good analysis that 32 justifies our actions so I'm in favor of this proposal. 33 34 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, 35 Hernandez. Any other discussion items or questions 36 from the Council. 37 38 (No comments) 39 40 MR. YEAGER: Question. 41 42 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Question's been 43 called. The motion on the table is to support Wildlife 44 Proposal 20-11 which requests a customary and 45 traditional use determination for brown bears in Units 46 1, 3, 4 and 5 by rural residents of Units 1 through 5. 47 All in favor of the motion signify by saying aye. 48 49 IN UNISON: Aye.



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1 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All opposed, 2 signify by saying nay. 3 4 (No opposed votes) 5 6 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: The motion 7 passes unanimously. All right, let's try to do another 8 one before we take a break. Wildlife Proposal 20-13, 9 establish a customary and traditional use determination

10 for elk in Unit 3. 11 12 Ms. Kenner. 13 14 MS. KENNER: Thank you, Madame Chair. 15 Members of the Council. Again, this is Pippa Kenner 16 with OSM and this analysis begins on Page 300 of your 17 Council book. 18 19 This is, the Southeast Alaska Council 20 submitted Proposal 20-13 requesting a customary and 21 traditional use determination for elk in Unit 3 to 22 include residents of Southeast Alaska, including 23 Yakutat. 24 25 So the Council stated in its request 26 that residents of the region have a long history of 27 obtaining large wildlife resources, both historically 28 and contemporary employing a multitude of 29 transportation methods extensively for this purpose. 30 And that rural Southeast residents depend upon large 31 wildlife species for sustaining the subsistence cash 32 economy of the region. 33 34 The Council went on, considering elk 35 specifically, the Council notes, that the harvest use 36 and sharing of elk by the region's rural residents has 37 been frequently documented, despite the species 38 relatively recent introduction to the region in 1986. 39 The Council indicates that elk now provide substantial 40 cultural, economic, social and nutritional benefit to 41 the region. The Council additionally notes that elk 42 have been available for harvest for more than 30 years 43 and that patterns of use and reliance have been 44 established. The Council explains that large land 45 mammals like elk provide a substantial amount of meat 46 that helps offset the expense of commercial goods, and, 47 additionally, that elk provide an efficiency of economy 48 when they can be harvested near communities. The 49 Council stated that elk are reasonably accessible to



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1 area residents and that elk commonly venture far from 2 the island to which they are introduced. 3 4 Furthermore, the Council noted that 5 residents teach their children about elk and pass on 6 hunting knowledge in the same ways that they do for 7 other species. 8 9 I'm going to move on to a description

10 of the eight factors and to summarize the evidence that 11 appears in the harvest reporting system. 12 13 Since 1997, of the total number of 14 hunters over this period, almost 60 percent were rural 15 residents of Alaska. Among Federally-qualified 16 subsistence users, 90 percent were residents of 17 Southeast Alaska. Only 21 elk hunting events in Unit 3 18 by Federally-qualified subsistence users from other 19 regions of the state have occurred over this 20 year 20 period. The maximum number of hunting events by rural 21 residents of a community outside of Southeast Alaska 22 was six over this 20 year period by residents of Tok, 23 but most of these communities were represented by a 24 single elk hunting event in Unit 3. There's no 25 available information indicating a customary and 26 traditional use pattern for elk in Unit 3 by rural 27 residents of community outside of Southeast Alaska. 28 29 Now, the customary and traditional use 30 determinations for other large wildlife species in Unit 31 3 can provide additional insight on which residents 32 generally exhibit the eight factors for elk using these 33 other species as proxies. Table 3 lists the customary 34 and traditional use determinations for moose, deer and 35 bear in Unit 3 as they relate to these other 36 communities that reported elk hunting activity since 37 1997. Residents of Units 1, 2, 3 and 4 that reported 38 elk hunting activity also have a customary and 39 traditional use determination for three or more large 40 wildlife species in Unit 3. While residents of Unit 5 41 have not reported elk hunting activity in Unit 3 since 42 1997, they do have a customary and traditional use 43 determination for deer and black bear in Unit 3 and for 44 moose in Unit 3 remainder. Elk in Unit 3 are difficult 45 to hunt. An overall success of residents from the 46 proposed customary and traditional use communities has 47 been 61 percent. 48 49 So the effects of this proposal.



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1 If this proposal is adopted only rural 2 residents of Southeast Alaska will be eligible to 3 harvest elk under Federal regulations, seasons, harvest 4 limits, gear types and permits in Unit 3. 5 6 The OSM preliminary conclusion is to 7 support the proposal with the following justification. 8 9 Residents of Units 1 through 5 have

10 demonstrated use of elk in Unit 3, and incorporation of 11 this resource into the subsistence patterns of the 12 region. Residents of these units have also 13 demonstrated the use of other large wildlife species 14 within Unit 3, and have a customary and traditional use 15 determination for these species in that unit. This 16 suggests a pattern of use of the area that is likely to 17 extend to elk. Units 1 through 5 are also near and 18 reasonably accessible to Unit 3 for the harvest of elk 19 by residents of these units. Furthermore, 90 percent 20 of Federally-qualified subsistence users reported 21 harvesting, hunting activity for elk in Unit 3 since 22 1997 where rural residents of Units 1 through 5. Rural 23 residents from outside of Southeast Alaska may be 24 reasonably excluded from the customary and traditional 25 use determination for elk in Unit 3 due to the limited 26 evidence of historical hunt activity and their distance 27 from the resource. 28 29 Thank you, Madame Chair, that's the end 30 of my presentation. 31 32 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Ms. 33 Kenner. Are there any questions from Council members 34 on the proposal for Ms. Kenner. 35 36 Mr. Schroeder. 37 38 MR. SCHROEDER: Ms. Kenner, I think we 39 got goats in here..... 40 41 MS. KENNER: Oh, no. 42 43 MR. SCHROEDER: .....on Page 307 and 44 309, and so I'd suggest that we do a correction on that 45 before this goes to the Federal Board. Table 4 refers 46 to elk. 47 48 And then the other comment would be, in 49 the regulatory history, you accurately report actions



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1 by the Council and by the Federal Board in 2006 when 2 there was a question about customary and traditional 3 use of elk in Unit 3. 4 5 So just to amplify that, at that time 6 the Council suggested taking no action on that proposal 7 because we basically hadn't thought about elk very 8 much. Another reason -- another change since we gotten 9 to think about elk for the last 13 years, so that's

10 pretty long to think about elk, that we do know a bit 11 more about that species, but the Council has worked 12 really hard on figuring out how we want C&T 13 determinations to be done, and so that's another change 14 from 2006. 15 16 But with those minor changes, 17 especially getting rid of the goat, I compliment you on 18 an excellent analysis. 19 20 Thank you. 21 22 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 23 Schroeder. Any other comments from Council members for 24 Ms. Kenner. 25 26 Mr. Hernandez. 27 28 MR. HERNANDEZ: Yeah, thank you. 29 Actually this proposal, you know, has a little more to 30 it than some of the other ones for obvious reasons. 31 32 One reason that maybe is not so 33 obvious, it kind of relates back to the question I 34 asked you previously about the way the determinations 35 are made, or not made, in this case. Under existing 36 Federal regulations, as we've kind of been aware, is 37 that there hasn't been a determination on elk in the 38 past. We took no action on it previously. So under 39 regulation, on Page 301, existing Federal regulation, 40 by virtue of the fact that there has been no action 41 taken, it says that there actually is a customary and 42 traditional use determination for all rural residents 43 of the state. 44 45 So I guess I don't know what to make of 46 that. I mean we're saying you can't do a -- you told 47 us you can't institute any kind of a Federal season on 48 elk if there's no customary and traditional use 49 determination, on the other hand if there is no



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1 customary and traditional use determination, there is 2 one, because it's open to all rural residents of the 3 state. 4 5 So I guess my question right now is, 6 you know, with that being the case could we, right now, 7 have a Federal subsistence hunt on elk in Unit 3 for 8 all rural residents of the state of Alaska. 9

10 MS. KENNER: Thank you, very much for 11 that question. Through the Chair. This is Pippa 12 Kenner with OSM. 13 14 So while the Board -- if you turn the 15 page on to 302 you'll see the regulation that the Board 16 adopted that specified if no determination has been 17 made then all residents of Alaska, rural residents of 18 Alaska would be eligible for any Federal season harvest 19 limit, it's in the State process that you may only 20 adopt subsistence regulations if you have -- if there 21 has already been adopted a customary and traditional 22 use determination. In the State system, no 23 determination acts basically as a negative 24 determination. In our system the regulation -- the 25 customary and traditional use determinations that came 26 over with no determination means that all rural 27 residents are eligible during the Federal season. 28 29 MR. HERNANDEZ: I realize that but we 30 don't have a Federal season. Is what you're saying 31 essentially that in order to have a Federal season, 32 there has to be a positive customary and traditional 33 use determination, rather than this default 34 determination of all rural residents? 35 36 MS. KENNER: Thank you, again, for the 37 question. Madame Chair. No, I'm saying that even when 38 there is no determination in the Federal process, all 39 rural residents are eligible and the Council or an 40 individual could put in a proposal for a Federal 41 season. 42 43 MR. HERNANDEZ: Okay. So if the 44 Council were to not approve this proposal at this 45 session, if a proposal were to come in to have a 46 Federal season for elk in Unit 3, that would be a valid 47 proposal and we could institute a Federal season if we 48 so desired? 49



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1 MS. KENNER: Again, thank you for the 2 question. Through the Chair. Yes, and all rural 3 residents of Alaska would be eligible to participate. 4 5 MR. HERNANDEZ: Okay. Kind of changes 6 the conversation because I don't know if we were 7 necessarily aware of that. 8 9 Thank you.

10 11 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, 12 Hernandez. Are there any other questions from the 13 Council members for Ms. Kenner regarding the proposal. 14 15 MS. PHILLIPS: Madame Chair. 16 17 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Ms. Phillips. 18 19 MS. PHILLIPS: Thank you, Chairman 20 Needham. So to clarify what Council member Hernandez' 21 is saying, is that, if we pass this proposal, WP20-13, 22 which gives customary and traditional use designation 23 to all residents of Units 1 through 5, there still 24 could be a proposal submitted to open an elk hunt but 25 only those residents -- if this passes, then only those 26 residents of Units 1 through 5 would be eligible? 27 28 MS. KENNER: Thank you for the 29 question. Through the Chair. Yes, for the Federal 30 hunt. Everybody, all State residents and others could 31 still participate in a State hunt, but in the Federal 32 hunt on Federal public lands the only people who would 33 be eligible are residents of Units 1 through 5. So it 34 would restrict the C&T, so to speak, from all rural 35 residents to only residents of Units 1 through 5. 36 37 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Ms. 38 Kenner. 39 40 Mr. Hernandez. 41 42 MR. HERNANDEZ: Thank you. I mean I 43 guess the reason why I bring this up is because I think 44 the impression is, right now that, you know, unless we 45 take action on this proposal and approve it, you know, 46 there won't be any proposals for Federal seasons on 47 elk, and that's kind of the concern. I think amongst 48 -- might hear from the Fish and Game Department in 49 their presentation that they don't think, you know,



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1 that there should be any kind of a Federal priority, is 2 probably the concern on, you know, elk hunting in this 3 district. And I guess I'm kind of becoming aware right 4 now that there probably already is, so, yeah. 5 6 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Are there any 7 other questions for Ms. Kenner. 8 9 Mr. Schroeder.

10 11 MR. SCHROEDER: Ms. Kenner. I know 12 that you've worked on C&T proposals around the state, 13 and some years ago the Southeast Regional Advisory 14 Council floated our idea of the way C&T determinations 15 should be done and we placed this before all the 16 Councils around the state, and we expected that 17 everyone join in the circle and sing kumbaya and agree 18 with us because we're such a great Council and have 19 such great insight. 20 21 (Laughter) 22 23 MR. SCHROEDER: However what took place 24 in that go around was that many, if not all the 25 Councils elsewhere in the state thought they had a way 26 of doing C&T determinations in their regions that 27 worked for them, and so as a result of that we weren't 28 able to come up with a program-wide approach to C&T 29 determinations that would follow the astute wisdom of 30 the Southeast Regional Advisory Council. So then we 31 launched into -- we approached the Board and we said, 32 well, please give us deference, we believe that this is 33 the way C&T determinations will work best in our region 34 and this suite of proposals, which makes sense in our 35 region, come out of that effort. So that's the context 36 for why we have proposals that are addressing C&T use 37 of different species, exclusively in Units 1 through 5. 38 So that's the context as I understand it. 39 40 And if you could give me your more in- 41 depth version of that scenario that would be useful for 42 this Council. 43 44 MS. KENNER: Thanks for the question. 45 Through the Chair. This is Pippa Kenner with OSM. 46 47 So, you know, in 2010 we had the 48 Secretarial Review where the Secretary of the Interior 49 and Agriculture reviewed our program, and one of the



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1 things that came out of that that is important for this 2 discussion is the question of deference, or the Board's 3 obligation to follow the Council's recommendation. 4 Now, this type of obligation had already existed in 5 regulation for questions of take, harvest limits, 6 seasons, but generally it hadn't been applied to 7 customary and traditional use determinations. However, 8 through that process it was determined -- the Board 9 determined that they would in general provide this

10 deference, or an obligation to follow the 11 recommendation of the Councils. This had to do with an 12 idea that regionally things are very different in 13 Alaska, and that the Councils have members who are very 14 aware of the situation in their area and they are best 15 suited, as long as they're following Title VIII of 16 ANILCA, to make those decisions. 17 18 Very quickly. 19 20 In the past there had been a couple of 21 situations where the Board had adopted customary and 22 traditional use determinations that were more 23 restrictive than what the Councils had recommended. 24 25 Through the review and through the 26 participation of the Southeast Council members, this 27 review was conducted with all the Councils, and the 28 Councils began to develop their approaches to C&T 29 determinations. And it was the Southeast Council who 30 said, we would like our determinations to be more broad 31 and inclusive because there are tools in Title VIII of 32 ANILCA that will allow us to prioritize subsistence 33 users if we need to. But until we have to do that, 34 these restrictive C&Ts are basically eliminating or 35 closing subsistence opportunities to residents of our 36 region when there's no reason to. There may be lots of 37 the resource yet there's other people who can't 38 participate. 39 40 And additionally, Southeast, uniquely 41 had what we call a patchwork of C&T determinations that 42 were in some, many instances, restrictive eligibility 43 down to small areas with only a few communities, which 44 would be very difficult to manage or regulate if the 45 time came where these seasons were providing priorities 46 and reasonable preference for subsistence users. And 47 through this process Southeast Council wanted to make 48 sure that the Board would understand this desire for 49 regional inclusivity of their C&Ts and that no one from



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1 the region would be excluded. 2 3 Now, part of the C&T process is the 4 factors and one of the factors is that there is a 5 demonstration, geographically, of use by people in 6 these areas to be concluded in the C&T. So, generally, 7 C&T -- no, all the time, when we adopt -- when the 8 Board adopts a C&T, it's restricted from all rural 9 residents because it's hard to demonstrate that someone

10 from Barrow, even if they hunted in Unit 5, once, has 11 this unique, you know, pattern of use. So it generally 12 gets restricted and we use units and subunits to define 13 the area of resources and the rural residents and it's 14 generally restricted down to a regional or maybe a 15 subregional level. 16 17 Thank you. 18 19 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank 20 you, Ms. Kenner. 21 22 Ms. Phillips. 23 24 MS. PHILLIPS: Thank you. Thank you, 25 Councilman Schroeder for that insightful question and 26 thank you, Pippa Kenner, for that well rounded and 27 excellent explanation to the question. 28 29 I think it's especially important with 30 our new members who are now on the Council to 31 understand where we've come from to get to where we are 32 today, so, thank you again. 33 34 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Are there other 35 questions from Council members for Ms. Kenner. 36 37 Mr. Bemis. 38 39 MR. BEMIS: Yes, through the Chair. My 40 question is was there any negative feedback when you 41 were in the process of the C&T from other communities 42 that did participate that won't have this if we go 43 ahead and pass it down to a region or subregion of the 44 units. I know that when you put this together that you 45 go through a process and are these people aware that 46 they're going to be losing access to this or was -- 47 basically any feedback on any of these changes with 48 this C&T before its got to us? 49



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1 MS. KENNER: Thank you for the 2 question. Through the Chair. No, in general, the 3 comments from rural residents of communities and areas 4 was positive, because it included the shift to the 5 Board showing deference or obligation to following 6 Council recommendations. And I think that the 7 frustrations that were occurring had to do with that. 8 9 Thank you, Madame Chair.

10 11 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. Any 12 other questions for Ms. Kenner. 13 14 (No comments) 15 16 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right. A 17 report on Board consultations from tribes and ANCSA 18 Corporations. 19 20 MR. LIND: Thank you, Madame Chair. 21 Council members. During the proposal session there 22 were no comments on Wildlife Proposal 20-13. 23 24 Thank you, Madame Chair. 25 26 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. 27 Agency comments. Do we have someone on line for Alaska 28 Department of Fish and Game. 29 30 MR. SCHUMACHER: Yeah, this is Tom 31 Schumacher with the Department of Fish and Game calling 32 in from Douglas. The Department is neutral on this 33 proposal because it will result in no change in hunting 34 or harvest opportunity. Although I would like to point 35 out that the elk population in Unit 3 is a small 36 introduced population. It's currently managed by the 37 State under three separate drawing hunts and one 38 registration hunt. So everyone is eligible to 39 participate. And that's the end of our comments. 40 41 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 42 Schumacher. Ms. Kenner, did you have a clari -- okay. 43 Are there any questions from the Council. 44 45 Mr. Schroeder. 46 47 MR. SCHROEDER: Yeah, Tom, we have a 48 pretty good analysis here but it would appear, just 49 from the data before us that, really, quite a few of



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1 the elk that have been taken in Southeast Alaska, have 2 been taken by people who are Federally-qualified 3 subsistence users, primarily, the main communities are 4 Petersburg and Wrangell, followed by Ketchikan; so I 5 think we have a somewhat different situation than we 6 had in Berners Bay where the -- almost all the harvest 7 had been taken by urban residents of Juneau. 8 9 Do I have my information right there on

10 the distribution of harvest? 11 12 Thank you. 13 14 MR. SCHUMACHER: I share that 15 understanding of the harvest pattern there. So it is 16 the logistics and the difficulty of the hunt, lack of 17 field camps and things like that, accessing the South 18 Etolin area where the elk are, generally requires a 19 large boat to use as a field camp, and so people who 20 live in the adjacent communities are best in position 21 to participate in that hunt. 22 23 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank 24 you Mr. Schumacher. Follow up Mr. Schroeder. 25 26 MR. SCHROEDER: Yes. I was just 27 bringing that up because I believe that the existing 28 management structure provides, although we're not 29 talking about seasons and bag limits here, it would 30 appear that the existing management structure provides 31 abundant opportunity for subsistence users to harvest 32 those elk that can be taken. 33 34 Thank you. 35 36 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 37 Schroeder. Are there any other Council questions for 38 the Alaska Department of Fish and Game. 39 40 (No comments) 41 42 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right. Are 43 there any agency comments from other Federal agencies. 44 45 MS. PERRY: No, Madame Chair. 46 47 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Comments from 48 tribal entities. 49



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1 MS. PERRY: No, Madame Chair. 2 3 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Advisory Group 4 comments. Were there any further comments from other 5 Regional Advisory Councils. 6 7 MS. PERRY: No other Regional Advisory 8 Councils commented on this proposal. 9

10 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. Fish 11 and Game Advisory Committees. 12 13 MS. PERRY: Yes, Madame Chair. One 14 comment was received from the Ketchikan Advisory 15 Committee. All the comments begin on Page 312 of your 16 meeting book. The Ketchikan Advisory Committee states: 17 18 This is a population introduced by the 19 State in 1986. Due to this fact we do not believe this 20 population is traditional and customary for any unit in 21 Southeast Alaska. The authors of this proposal do not 22 demonstrate how this particular species in this area 23 has been used to meet the definition of customary and 24 traditional. 25 26 That was the only comment received from 27 a Fish and Game Advisory Committee. 28 29 Madame Chair. 30 31 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. 32 Comments for Subsistence Resource Commissions. 33 34 MS. PERRY: Madame Chair. The 35 Wrangell-St.Elias Subsistence Resource Commission 36 simply stated that they defer to the Southeast Regional 37 Advisory Council on this proposal. 38 39 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. 40 Summary of written public comments. 41 42 MS. PERRY: One additional written 43 public comment was received from Chris Guggenbickler, a 44 resident of Wrangell and a hunter of elk on Etolin 45 Island. He states: 46 47 This proposal would lay the groundwork 48 for a later proposal where a rural resident in these 49 areas could put in a proposal asking for subsistence



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1 priority on this herd. Consequently prohibiting 2 residents of Ketchikan and Juneau from participating in 3 this hunt and he is adamantly opposed to someone's 4 effort to use this determination to try to exclude 5 others. Ketchikan is where the goats were taken from 6 to trade for the elk that were transplanted on Etolin. 7 As a resident of Wrangell, he would be eligible and 8 benefit from the proposal, but morally can't stomach 9 the thought of using this avenue as a resource grab of

10 a transplanted animal that the Legislature intended to 11 be a novelty hunt to benefit all. 12 13 That concludes written comments 14 received on this proposal. 15 16 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank 17 you. Is there any public testimony from members in the 18 room on the proposal or anyone on the phone. 19 20 (No comments) 21 22 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Hearing none, 23 what's the wish of the Council. 24 25 Mr. Yeager. 26 27 MR. YEAGER: Move to adopt Wildlife 28 Proposal WP20-13. 29 30 MR. HERNANDEZ: Second. 31 32 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: It's been moved 33 and seconded to adopt Wildlife Proposal 20-13, and now 34 is the time for discussion amongst Council members 35 regarding the proposal. 36 37 Mr. Hernandez. 38 39 MR. HERNANDEZ: Thank you, Ms. Needham. 40 I think that written public testimony that DeAnna just 41 read kind of illustrates the misunderstanding, maybe, 42 that we have on the elk situation here. I'm sure Mr. 43 Guggenbickler would be shocked to hear that we could 44 already entertain a proposal for a subsistence priority 45 on elk in Unit 3. I was not really aware of that until 46 I delved into this analysis here. 47 48 I think the, you know, the issues 49 before the Councils essentially are the question of how



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1 long does it take for a species that's been introduced 2 or migrated into the area to become customary and 3 traditional in order to have a subsistence hunt. And I 4 guess I don't like the fact that, you know, we have 5 this default situation where if no positive -- I'll use 6 that terminology because that's the only way I can kind 7 of express it, if we don't have a positive customary 8 and traditional use determination you still have one by 9 default, I mean that kind of -- you know, it's kind of

10 a concept that kind of is hard to grasp and it would be 11 very confusing to the public to try and explain that. 12 So I think it would be good to clear that up. 13 14 I don't know, but, yeah, the question 15 of, how long a species needs to be in the area, I think 16 I've pointed out before that the terminology we use is 17 customary and traditional, they're lumped together as 18 kind of like one topic; customary and traditional but 19 the word customary and the word traditional have two 20 different definitions. Traditional is, you know, in my 21 view, kind of a long, long term many generations 22 tradition, but customs change far more frequently, 23 people grow accustomed to doing things in a certain 24 way, you know, based on tradition. So, you know, I 25 mean it is kind of a lot to digest there, but I think 26 the way I'm going to view this proposal, I think I will 27 vote in favor of it. 28 29 I think we've established throughout 30 the state, enough precedence on introduced species to 31 say that after a certain period of time of an amount of 32 use by rural residents that -- in the situation of the 33 elk, they've probably been here long enough to 34 establish customs and traditions. I'll say customs. I 35 think the point maybe that you brought out in your 36 analysis, Pippa, was we have customs based on 37 traditions, perhaps. You know, traditionally people 38 have obviously hunted game in Southeast Alaska since 39 there was people in Southeast Alaska. That's the 40 tradition. Customs grow over time. People grow 41 accustomed to certain practices based on those 42 traditions. I mean that's kind of the way I'm viewing 43 it. 44 45 So, you know, with all that in mind I'm 46 going to be in favor of this proposal. 47 48 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 49 Hernandez.



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1 Mr. Yeager. 2 3 MR. YEAGER: Thank you, Ms. Chair. 4 This is a difficult proposal for me, this is right in 5 my backyard. And I don't like to feel, as I'm coming 6 across as limiting, but I feel that I have a few points 7 and factors that are somewhat opposite of Mr. 8 Hernandez' opinion. But I think it's important to get 9 them all out on to the table.

10 11 Personally, I, as Don was, surprised by 12 this default season without a positive C&T 13 determination. I'm looking in the book here, I'm like 14 I'd like to know when those dates are, if there is one, 15 which apparently there has been but not published for 16 people to view or to take advantage of. So I'm kind of 17 -- currently I'm not very comfortable with proceeding 18 with this proposal without having more time and the 19 ability to clarify that and actually get into the weeds 20 of that. 21 22 The people that I've talked to about 23 this proposal before the meeting here made several 24 points and I think some of the issues that I'm dealing 25 with here, is that, through this permit system the 26 majority of the elk taken on Etolin Island are from 27 rural residents already. So, in my mind, this is not a 28 broken system. There is -- the majority of the animals 29 being taken and utilized by rural residents so there is 30 somewhat of a -- already a priority in my opinion 31 there. The local knowledge of the area is already a 32 priority and a consideration of the residents of that 33 area that have use of those animals. 34 35 Traditionally, I don't think that these 36 proposals marry up apples to apples. If you look at 37 the proposals of the brown bear and the black bear, 38 there's a much more in-depth history and tradition and 39 customary use of those animals than there is of an elk 40 herd that was introduced, however, point taken we have 41 proven that we have put C&T determinations on 42 introduced species, so in my mind I don't feel we have 43 that traditional use, so to speak, on this herd, in 44 particular. 45 46 This is not an animal that -- if you 47 talk to someone on the street that needs animals to 48 feed their family, this is not an animal they're going 49 to go after for a subsistence hunt. This is a very



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1 difficult hunt. I don't know, unless you talk to 2 someone which I have before, that has taken an elk off 3 the beach on Etolin, I don't think you're going to talk 4 to anyone that's going to be in favor of going mountain 5 climbing on Etolin Island to get an elk because their 6 family is hungry. There's much more, there are a lot 7 easier opportunities for other animals for subsistence 8 users to take than this -- than elk on Etolin. 9

10 The way it is now, everyone has an 11 opportunity on these animals and I just -- I'm not in 12 favor of this proposal and I don't think that -- if the 13 Council doesn't pass this, I don't think it would be 14 restricting opportunity necessarily, I don't feel that 15 it would be detrimental as these elk are not a primary 16 subsistence source in the area. And I think that the 17 system is currently not broken and need of fixing by 18 us. 19 20 And I would be more comfortable in 21 waiting to see if someone brings forth and can prove 22 the need for a designated Federal season for elk versus 23 the three opportunities, the two drawings and a 24 registration hunt that there is now. 25 26 So, thank you. 27 28 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 29 Yeager. 30 31 Mr. Hernandez. 32 33 MR. HERNANDEZ: Just to make things 34 more complicated, John, I appreciate your comments 35 there. 36 37 You know one thing in the elk 38 management in the past years, the State, under their 39 management did prior to last year decide that they did 40 not want the elk population to spread to other islands 41 other than where they were originally introduced, 42 Etolin Island, and also they spread rapidly to Zarembo 43 Island, so the State had a regulation in place that 44 places where elk spread, and they had spread to 45 Kupreanof Island, maybe on Mitkof Island, there's been 46 reports of elk on Prince of Wales Island, they had a 47 regulation in place that there was an open season for 48 any elk during the -- as long as the deer season was 49 open, where anybody could take an elk. And I think



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1 there was pretty good justification for that, they do 2 not want these introduced species to spread far and 3 wide. And I was a little disturbed when, you know, 4 they rescinded that regulation. I really had always 5 hoped to bag an elk somewhere, I mean I see elk sign 6 occasionally, but also for that main reason, I don't 7 think introduced species should be encouraged to spread 8 throughout the region. It just kind of bothers me. 9 There's implications there both the elk and the moose,

10 they're -- you know, the moose are migrating naturally, 11 elk introduced, they're also migrating. When their 12 populations get high, they're a very -- a lot of 13 competition in the habitat with the deer, I mean I've 14 seen places where, you know, there's been a lot of 15 moose move in and these heavy snow winters when 16 populations are restricted to, you know, smaller areas, 17 especially where there's places where there's a lot of 18 habitat, you know, loss, through logging, boy those 19 moose really out compete the deer. And, you know, 20 everybody's happy with the moose hunting, think it's 21 great but, you know, there's about 100 animals 22 harvested, 120 amongst, you know, all the residents of 23 Kake, Wrangell, Petersburg, some people come from 24 Juneau now, a lot of people from Prince of Wales Island 25 are going over to Kupreanof and Kuiu Island, so there's 26 a lot of communities that are, you know, harvesting 27 moose now and they get about 100. You know, deer 28 harvest are in the thousands. They provide a lot of 29 meat to a lot of households, and if these more 30 competitive species start depleting the ability of the 31 deer to thrive, it's going to be a net loss to the 32 subsistence users in my opinion. 33 34 I would be in favor of having a far 35 more liberal moose season, and I think, I don't know, 36 the conversations here, some of the Council members 37 have been in favor of that, as Mr. Douville, I think, 38 was proposing some liberalization of the moose hunting 39 season. I would agree with that. 40 41 So, you know, knowing what we know 42 today, I think one of the first things I would do would 43 put in a proposal for a Federal season to open elk 44 hunting on any island other than Zarembo and Etolin 45 again. And, you know, like what you were saying, I 46 wouldn't necessarily, you know, entertain a proposal, 47 that would have to come, by the way from a subsistence 48 user, to have some kind of a priority on, you know, 49 maybe Etolin and Zarembo, I'd be wiling to, you know,



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1 maybe go along with the status quo on that, but, you 2 know, whether or not you'd get a proposal like that, 3 because it would have to come from the subsistence 4 user, and as you said, people probably are just not in 5 favor of it, so we may never see a proposal like that, 6 but I think, you know, even given the situation right 7 now, I'm ready to put in a proposal to reinstate that 8 open elk season on the other islands. 9

10 So maybe we don't have to pass this 11 proposal in order to do that but I mean just to kind of 12 clear things up in the public mind and know where we 13 stand, I don't know, I think I'm still in favor of it. 14 15 However, I did want to ask you, with 16 your opinion there, I think you indicated that you'd 17 probably be against it, but it also sounded to me like 18 maybe you're also kind of leaning towards maybe just 19 taking a no action approach to it, or, I don't know, 20 I'll ask you about that. 21 22 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Mr. Yeager. 23 24 MR. YEAGER: Through the Chair. Yeah, 25 I think no action would be more of my stance on that, 26 just let it be the way it is. 27 28 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Ms. Phillips. 29 30 MS. PHILLIPS: Thank you, Chairman 31 Needham. ANILCA .802(1) says consistent with sound 32 management principles the conservation of healthy 33 populations of fish and wildlife and the utilization of 34 the public lands in Alaska is to cause the least 35 adverse impact possible on rural residents who depend 36 on subsistence uses of the resources of such lands; 37 and, two, says; non-wasteful subsistence uses of fish 38 and wildlife and other renewable resources shall be the 39 priority consumptive use of all such resources. 40 41 When it says wildlife, it doesn't say 42 introduced wildlife, or natural wildlife, it just says 43 wildlife. 44 45 And then under .803, definitions, the 46 term subsistence uses means the customary and 47 traditional uses by rural residents of Alaska of wild 48 renewable resources for direct personal or family 49 consumption.



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1 So what we have here is, okay, and then 2 in .804, it says; the taking on public lands of fish 3 and wildlife for non-wasteful subsistence uses shall be 4 accorded priority over the taking on such lands of fish 5 and wildlife for other purposes. 6 7 It doesn't say introduced wildlife, it 8 doesn't say natural wildlife, it just says wildlife. 9

10 I mean we have marten that are an 11 introduced species and since it's such a little tiny 12 furbearer animal, I mean it hasn't created a 13 controversy about whether we put a customary and 14 traditional use designation on it. 15 16 So, you know, I am going to support the 17 proposal because we have all these ungulates and, you 18 know, ungulates are ungulates, they reside in our 19 region and they should be available for the rural 20 residents of Southeast Alaska. What this proposal 21 does, is it narrows it down from all rural residents of 22 the state of Alaska down to rural residents of 23 Southeast Alaska. And the fear that somebody's going 24 to submit a proposal to make it a rural resident only, 25 well, that option applies already, and that -- under 26 current existing regulations, it's going to say that 27 everybody from rural Alaska can come and hunt this 28 hunt, well, what this proposal does is say, okay, if 29 somebody submits a hunt -- a Federal hunt for elk it'll 30 be rural residents of Southeast Alaska, which, if we 31 read the analysis it says, you know, 90 percent of the 32 harvest comes from rural residents of Southeast Alaska 33 already. 34 35 So I mean we're just recognizing an 36 already customary and traditional practice. 37 38 It's just sort of -- I mean it's just 39 sort of like, let's box us rural residents of Southeast 40 Alaska in and we're trying to break free from that -- I 41 don't know how else to say it. I mean it's like we've 42 self-constrained ourselves and now that we're 43 recognizing that we can do things more broadly, and if 44 there's a species of, you know, a conservation concern, 45 there are other tools in place that can recognize -- 46 that can deal with that conservation concern. 47 48 But in the mean time what we're doing 49 is saying, rural residents of Southeast Alaska you have



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1 a customary and traditional use designation for elk in 2 Southeast Alaska. Yeah, they're only in Unit 3 right 3 now but who knows how long, the way the warm climate's 4 going before they're somewhere else because we 5 certainly see moose moving all over the place. 6 7 Thank you, Madame Chair. 8 9 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Ms.

10 Phillips. 11 12 Mr. Douville, and then Mr. Kitka. 13 14 MR. DOUVILLE: Thank you, Madame Chair. 15 Patty, that did answer my question, I believe, is that, 16 this would narrow it down from all rural residents to 17 rural residents of 1 through 5. And we're not 18 determining a hunt here, we're just making this 19 determination. We're not establishing a hunt. But in 20 any case that opportunity is already there. 21 22 So I will support this proposal. 23 24 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 25 Douville. 26 27 Mr. Kitka. 28 29 MR. KITKA: Thank you, Madame Chair. 30 This species is traveling between the islands. On 31 Baranof Island they're already in the Alpine, they're 32 starting to hear bugling up in Baranof Island. We 33 haven't seen them. You guys know that Baranof Island 34 is a pretty rugged place. The mountains there in the 35 Alpine is really something. Getting to these places 36 and even though Baranof is a ways away, but they're 37 tremendous swimmers. Like almost all animals that are 38 reintroduced to our area, they multiply, and some of 39 them are a nuisance and some of them aren't. 40 41 The sea otter which was introduced has 42 become a big nuisance. 43 44 Here competition for food from deer and 45 elk is but there's really no competition. The elk eat 46 something different than the deer. The deer live on 47 different things. And the same with moose, you know, 48 they eat different things. 49



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1 So I really can't see where there'd be 2 food competition. And I think that some of these 3 animals that are coming in and finding their place. 4 5 As the world warms and the ice fields 6 disappear, we're going to see more and more of this and 7 it seems like it's going to come sooner than later. 8 9 That's all I have to say.

10 11 Thank you. 12 13 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 14 Kitka. Are there other Council comments or discussion. 15 16 Mr. Bemis. 17 18 MR. BEMIS: I'm new to this and I 19 haven't been around any elk other than hunted in 20 Washington and you can hear them, you never see them, 21 you really got to know what you're doing to get them. 22 23 So in that aspect, looking ahead, we're 24 going to cross this. Either we put this aside and 25 review it, or we go ahead and deal with it now, because 26 if we do make it a subsistence priority, even though it 27 is in place it's not going to keep anybody from hunting 28 and the subsistence user, like Mr. Yeager was saying, 29 he's not going to be able to go and have an easy access 30 to this, therefore, if the subsistence priority is in 31 place and the subsistence user doesn't go hunt it 32 because of how hard it is, maybe later on when the 33 population goes and expands to these other areas, this 34 would already be in place. 35 36 So my point is I support this. 37 38 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 39 Bemis. 40 41 Mr. Hernandez. 42 43 MR. HERNANDEZ: Thank you. And, you 44 know, I kind of agree with what Larry was saying there, 45 and one of the things I consider is customary and 46 traditional use determinations don't change the way 47 people go about doing things. The customary and 48 traditional use determinations reflect what people do. 49 Just because you have a customary and traditional use



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1 determination isn't going to make people want to go do 2 things differently than they're doing it already. So 3 that was a good observation, Larry, thank you. 4 5 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 6 Hernandez. Any other comments or discussion from 7 Council members. 8 9 (No comments)

10 11 MR. LEIGHTON: Question. 12 13 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: The question's 14 been called. The motion on the table is to adopt 15 Wildlife Proposal 20-13, which requests a customary and 16 traditional use determination for elk in Unit 3 for 17 residents of Units 1 through 5. 18 19 It looks like Mr. Kitka would like to 20 do a roll call vote so he's got his sheet out, so I'll 21 support that, so we'll do a roll call vote. 22 23 MR. KITKA: Donald Hernandez. 24 25 MR. HERNANDEZ: Yes. 26 27 MR. KITKA: Ronald Leighton. 28 29 MR. LEIGHTON: Yes. 30 31 MR. KITKA: Harold Robbins. 32 33 MR. ROBBINS: Yes. 34 35 MR. KITKA: John Yeager. 36 37 MR. YEAGER: No. 38 39 MR. KITKA: Larry Bemis. 40 41 MR. BEMIS: Yes. 42 43 MR. KITKA: Cathy Needham. 44 45 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Yes. 46 47 MR. KITKA: Elijah Winrod. 48 49 MR. WINROD: Yes.



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1 MR. KITKA: Frank Wright. 2 3 MR. WRIGHT: Yes. 4 5 MR. KITKA: Patricia Phillips. 6 7 MS. PHILLIPS: Yes. 8 9 MR. KITKA: Michael Douville.

10 11 MR. DOUVILLE: Yes. 12 13 MR. KITKA: Harvey Kitka votes yes. 14 15 Robert Schroeder. 16 17 MR. SCHROEDER: Yes. 18 19 MR. KITKA: Madame Chair, it passes 11- 20 1. 21 22 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank 23 you. I think we should consider a break. I want to 24 remind Council members that after we're done with 25 proposals we'll have the Fisheries Resource Monitoring 26 Program update, and then we'll need to identify issues 27 for the fiscal year 2019 annual report, so if you could 28 think about those while you're on break and come to the 29 table prepared, that'd be great. 30 31 So let's meet back in 15 minutes. 32 33 Also Mr. Hernandez has reminded folks 34 that if you're in the hotel and leaving tonight that we 35 need to probably check out before 11:00. 36 37 Break. 38 39 (Off record) 40 41 (On record) 42 43 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, we're 44 waiting on a couple of Council members to come back, 45 they might be actually checking out, but I think that 46 we could probably get started with the analysis. 47 48 We're going to try to finish up the two 49 proposals that we have left and we're going to hear



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1 from the Fisheries Resource Monitoring Program. Just 2 before break I reminded you that hopefully you're 3 thinking about the annual report items that we need to 4 identify for the 2019 report. Then after that agenda 5 item we'll probably move back into the Roadless 6 comments from the working group. I'm not positive 7 where we'll be close to lunch time, depends on how fast 8 we move through the proposals, doing our due diligence 9 obviously.

10 11 So that's just to give you an idea of 12 where we're going from there. 13 14 And then after the Roadless stuff we'll 15 have agency comments. 16 17 So we still have a fair amount of stuff 18 to get through this afternoon. 19 20 With that said we'll have the 21 introduction to Wildlife Proposal 20-14, revise the 22 customary and traditional use determination for 23 mountain goat in Units 1, 4 and 5. 24 25 Ms. Kenner. 26 27 MS. KENNER: Thank you, Madame Chair. 28 Members of the Council. The analysis of Proposal 20-14 29 begins on Page 317 of your books. 30 31 This proposal was submitted by the 32 Southeast Alaska Council and it requests to modify the 33 customary and traditional use determination for 34 mountain goats in Units 1, 4 and 5 to include rural 35 residents of Units 1 through 5. Unit 2 and 3 are not 36 included in the request and mountain goats are not 37 observed in Units 2 and 3. Hereafter, mountain goats 38 will be referred to as goats. 39 40 So the discussion in this analysis -- 41 oh, excuse me, I want to back up. My co-worker, Joshua 42 Ream, and myself, put these analysis together and by 43 the time they get to you they have been modified and 44 reviewed by multiple people so they're basically an OSM 45 analysis, but I just wanted to include Joshua Ream who 46 did a lot of work on these, too. 47 48 So in the discussion in the 49 justification that was provided by the Council is a



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1 discussion about the review of the C&T process as 2 similar to what you've heard in our discussion of the 3 previous proposal, and that the Council believes that 4 customary and traditional use determinations should not 5 be used to limit or restrict subsistence users. When 6 there are resource shortages and all subsistence needs 7 cannot be met, the Council believes an Alaska National 8 Interest Lands Conservation Act, or ANILCA, Section 9 .804, subsistence user prioritization can be used to

10 allocate scarce resources. 11 12 Considering goats specifically, the 13 Council said that historical and contemporary use of, 14 and sharing of goats is well documented. That local 15 residents travel long distances and with a variety of 16 transportation modes to access this resource and that 17 goats play an important role in meeting the cultural, 18 economic, social and nutritional needs of the region's 19 rural residents. Along with other large land mammals 20 in the region, goats are dependent on to sustain the 21 region's mixed cash subsistence economy. 22 23 So I'm going to move quickly through 24 the regulatory history. 25 26 So at the beginning of the program in 27 1992, the Board adopted the State's customary and 28 traditional use determination for goats in Unit 1C, the 29 Board did not make a determination for Units 1A, 1B, 30 1D, 4 and 5 and, therefore, all rural residents were 31 eligible to hunt under Federal regulations. These C&Ts 32 were modified in 1B in 1997, in 1C in 1998 and in Unit 33 4 in 1997, and in Unit 5 in 1998 to get to the 34 regulation that we have today. 35 36 So continuing through to the eight 37 factors. 38 39 Goat hunting data between 1990 and 1918 40 [sic] show extensive hunting effort in Units 1, 4 and 5 41 among rural residents of communities throughout 42 Southeast Alaska and Yakutat. 43 44 For Units 1A and 1D, in which all rural 45 residents can hunt goats under Federal regulations, 87 46 percent and 98 percent respectively of reported goat 47 hunting activity by Federally-qualified subsistence 48 users since 1990 was undertaken by rural residents of 49 Units 1 through 5.



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1 Though there were numerous goat hunting 2 events in Unit 1A and 1D by Federally-qualified 3 subsistence users living outside of Southeast Alaska 4 since 1990, there is no additional evidence that 5 residents of these units have established a customary 6 and traditional use pattern for this species in these 7 units or that they directly depend on goats from these 8 populations to meet their subsistence needs. 9

10 So if this proposal is adopted, only 11 residents of Southeast Alaska in Units 1 through 5 will 12 be eligible to harvest mountain goats under Federal 13 regulations, hunting seasons, harvest units, gear types 14 and permits. 15 16 The OSM preliminary conclusion is to 17 support Proposal 20-14 with the following 18 justification. 19 20 Residents of Units 1 through 5 have 21 demonstrated use, harvest, and sharing of goats in 22 Units 1, 4 and 5. Goats have a clear historical and 23 contemporary role in the subsistence patterns of the 24 region. Residents frequently travel long distances 25 with a variety of transportation types to harvest and 26 share goat resources. Units 1 through 5 are also near 27 and reasonably accessible to Units 1, 4 and 5 for the 28 harvest and use of goats by residents of these units. 29 Furthermore, more than 87 percent of Federally- 30 qualified subsistence users hunting in Units 1A and 1D 31 since 1990 were rural residents of Units 1 through 5. 32 Rural residents from outside of Southeast Alaska may be 33 reasonably excluded from the customary and traditional 34 use determination for goats in Units 1A and 1D due to 35 the limited evidence of historical hunt activity and 36 their distance from the resource. 37 38 Thank you, Madame Chair. That's the 39 end of my presentation. 40 41 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Ms. 42 Kenner. Are there any questions from Council members 43 for Ms. Kenner. 44 45 (No comments) 46 47 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, 48 hearing none, the report on Board consultation with 49 tribes and ANCSA Corporations.



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1 MR. LIND: Afternoon, Madame Chair. 2 Board members. Orville Lind, Native Liaison. There 3 were no questions or comments on this proposal, 20-13. 4 5 Thank you, Madame Chair. 6 7 MS. KENNER: 14. 8 9 MR. LIND: Or 14.

10 11 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, very 12 much. Under agency comments, is there anyone on the 13 phone from Alaska Department o f Fish and Game. 14 15 MR. SCHUMACHER: Yeah, this is Tom 16 Schumacher with the Department of Fish and Game. The 17 Department is neutral on this proposal because it won't 18 really change the hunting or harvest opportunity. We 19 would also point out, similar to the previous elk 20 proposal, that there are introduced populations of 21 goats in places that are -- or even natural occurring 22 populations that are small and isolated, so in the 23 future please take that into account. 24 25 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 26 Schumacher. Are there any questions from Council 27 members for Alaska Department of Fish and Game. 28 29 (No comments) 30 31 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, are 32 there any agency comments from other Federal agencies? 33 34 MS. PERRY: No, Madame Chair. 35 36 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Tribal entities. 37 38 MS. PERRY: No. 39 40 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Are there any 41 comments from other Regional Advisory Councils. 42 43 MS. PERRY: No Regional Councils 44 commented on this proposal. 45 46 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Fish and Game 47 Advisory Committees. 48 49 MS. PERRY: Yes, Madame Chair. One



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1 written public comment in opposition was received on 2 this proposal from the Ketchikan Advisory Committee. 3 That can be found starting on Page 328. It simply 4 states: 5 6 Hunting of mountain goat is not 7 customary and traditional in all units -- I'm sorry, 8 let me go back, I think I have the wrong one in front 9 of me -- customary and traditional in all units

10 residing in Southeast. Sorry. 11 12 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. Are 13 there any comments from Subsistence Resource 14 Commissions. 15 16 MS. PERRY: Yes, Madame Chair. The 17 Wrangell-St. Elias National Park Subsistence Resource 18 Commission supports this proposal saying: 19 20 The proposed change will benefit 21 subsistence users by making the regulations more 22 uniform for communities in the region. Less complex 23 regulations will be easier for subsistence users to 24 follow. 25 26 Thank you. 27 28 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. Are 29 there any written public comments. 30 31 MS. PERRY: None, other than the 32 written public comment from the Ketchikan Advisory 33 Committee and the Subsistence Resource Commission. 34 35 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. 36 Public testimony on the proposal. 37 38 Ms. Murphy. 39 40 MS. MURPHY: Hi. If you wouldn't mind 41 turning to Pages 324 and 325 in your meeting books. 42 Over here it talks about how the Tlingits would use the 43 wool of the goats for Chilkat and quite frankly this 44 season that goats are allowed to be harvested is the 45 absolute wrong time to be harvesting goats for wool, 46 traditionally. The wool isn't long enough and it's just 47 not suitable for Chilkat weaving. I'm a Chilkat weaver 48 myself and I took a class with Ms. Jackson, if anyone 49 knows of her and it's just the -- the season ends



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1 December 31st, I believe, and the best time is early 2 spring. I think that it would be appropriate to ask 3 for a change in that for cultural and traditional 4 reasons. 5 6 And I have no knowledge of mountain 7 goats traditionally being eaten or hunted in the time 8 period that the season falls in. 9

10 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank 11 you, Ms. Murphy. Are there any questions from Council 12 members for Ms. Murphy. 13 14 Mr. Hernandez. 15 16 MR. HERNANDEZ: Not a question. But 17 Shania we will be doing our next round of wildlife 18 proposals in -- it's a two year cycle, so two years 19 from now, again, we'll be considering proposals so the 20 time to submit a proposal will be essentially a year 21 from this winter we're going in right now. They kind 22 of submit the proposals ahead of time for all this 23 analysis that we get and then the Council decides on 24 them. So roughly a year out from sometime this winter 25 is the call for proposals on wildlife. So I would 26 encourage you to, you know, keep track of that and if 27 you want to put in a proposal, it would be a good 28 opportunity for you. 29 30 MS. MURPHY: Yeah, I know none of you 31 can do anything about it right now and I can't either. 32 I just wanted to add that in so you're aware. 33 34 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Great, 35 appreciate that. More information is always good for 36 when we're making decisions. 37 38 Are there any other questions for Ms. 39 Murphy on her testimony. 40 41 Mr. Wright. 42 43 MR. WRIGHT: Thank you, Madame Chair. 44 You know I've heard that elders, you know, in the 45 springtime they've gone up in the hills to get the fur, 46 pick the fur off the branches from the goats, so 47 customary and traditional, that's the way it was done, 48 you know, so you would think that if we're going to 49 deal with customary and traditional, that would be the



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1 way to go in the spring where the hair is getting 2 caught on branches and that's where the elders went. 3 4 Gunalcheesh. 5 6 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 7 Wright. Ms. Murphy. 8 9 MS. MURPHY: Talking with Dorica, we

10 did come to the conclusion that you would actually hunt 11 the goat and kill it early springtime, just -- so you 12 can get the most out of that and actually going up into 13 the mountains and harvesting off the bushes is not the 14 most effective way, it takes a long time and the hair 15 is really dirty. It takes a really, really long time 16 to clean it out and then you have to make it into 17 roving and then spin it and then finally you can sort 18 of do something with that Chilkat-wise, but, yeah. 19 20 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. Are 21 there other questions or comments for Ms. Murphy. 22 23 Mr. Schroeder. 24 25 MR. SCHROEDER: Just a comment. Some 26 years ago, Teri Rofkar, who is no longer with us, who 27 was a very notable weaver in Sitka, worked with the 28 Regional Advisory Council and Forest Service to have a 29 spring hunt for goats and that worked out pretty much 30 okay. And the main thing was having good wool that 31 could be spun without -- and having an easier time 32 separating it from the guard hairs which aren't any 33 good. So this could be approached through the Forest 34 Service. 35 36 Thank you. 37 38 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. 39 40 Mr. Douville. 41 42 MR. DOUVILLE: Yeah, he just pretty 43 much said that but there may be a provision there now 44 where you could get a special permit for harvest at the 45 correct time of the year, it's a cultural sort of 46 thing, and I think that opportunity may exist. 47 48 Thank you. 49



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1 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank 2 you. Any other questions for Ms. Murphy on her 3 testimony. 4 5 Ms. Phillips. 6 7 MS. PHILLIPS: Thank you. There's this 8 harvest of wildlife book on Federal public lands and 9 Mr. Douville's correct, on Page 13, it says your

10 community or organization may apply to the Federal 11 Subsistence Board for a cultural or education permit to 12 harvest wildlife for qualifying cultural or educational 13 programs. 14 15 Thank you. 16 17 MS. MURPHY: I have that little paper 18 sitting over by my stuff. 19 20 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, any 21 other questions. 22 23 (No comments) 24 25 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you for 26 taking the time and coming to testify. 27 28 Are there any other public testimony in 29 the room or on the telephone regarding Wildlife 30 Proposal 20-14. 31 32 (No comments) 33 34 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Hearing none, 35 what's the wish of the Council. 36 37 Mr. Yeager. 38 39 MR. YEAGER: Move to adopt Wildlife 40 Proposal 20-14. 41 42 MR. KITKA: Second. 43 44 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: It was seconded 45 by Mr. Kitka. 46 47 Council discussion. 48 49 Mr. Hernandez.



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1 MR. HERNANDEZ: Thank you, Ms. Needham. 2 I'm going to be voting in favor of this proposal. 3 Once, again, it's another attempt by the Council to 4 increase opportunity for subsistence users to harvest 5 goats for subsistence purposes. It cleans up a lot of 6 very confusing regulatory language, yeah, it's a net 7 benefit to the subsistence users. And we did have a 8 very thorough analysis of this proposal as well. 9

10 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. Any 11 other discussion items from the Council. 12 13 (No comments) 14 15 MR. KITKA: Question. 16 17 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, the 18 question's been called. The motion is to adopt 19 Wildlife Proposal 20-14, which requests to modify the 20 customary and traditional use determination for goats 21 in Units 1, 4 and 5 to include residents of Units 1 22 through 5. All in favor of the proposal signify by 23 saying aye. 24 25 IN UNISON: Aye. 26 27 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Any opposed, 28 signify by saying nay. 29 30 (No opposing votes) 31 32 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Motion passes 33 unanimously. All right, our last proposal, Wildlife 34 Proposal 20-15. 35 36 Ms. Kenner. 37 38 MS. KENNER: Thank you, Madame Chair. 39 I think this is the last wildlife proposal to review. 40 So, again, for the record my name is Pippa Kenner with 41 OSM. I thank the Chair and Council. The analysis for 42 this proposal begins on Page 333 of your Council book. 43 44 The Southeast Council submitted 45 Proposal 20-15 requesting a customary and traditional 46 use determination for moose in Units 1 and 3 to include 47 residents of Southeast Alaska including Yakutat. Units 48 2 and 4 are not included in the request and moose are 49 not observed in Units 2 and 4.



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1 So, again, under the discussion and the 2 Council's justification for submitting the proposal, it 3 includes some local traditional knowledge, the reasons 4 why the Council believes that customary and traditional 5 use determinations should be adopted broadly and 6 inclusively. And then considering moose, specifically, 7 the proponent indicates that historical and 8 contemporary use in sharing of moose is well 9 documented, and that local residents travel long

10 distances to access this resource. And that moose play 11 an important role in meeting the cultural, economic, 12 social and nutritional needs of the region's rural 13 residents. As with other large land mammals in the 14 region moose are depended on to sustain the region's 15 mixed subsistence economy. 16 17 The regulatory history, just an 18 overview. 19 20 So, again, at the beginning of the 21 program in 1992, the Board adopted the State's 22 customary and traditional use determinations in Units 1 23 and 3. In other units there was no determination and 24 all rural residents of the state were eligible to 25 harvest. The customary and traditional use 26 determinations for moose in Units 1 and 3 have been 27 expanded several times since 1992. 28 29 So going through the eight factors. 30 31 Going to -- we're going to look at the 32 harvest reporting system and evidence we have of people 33 hunting in the different units. Harvest ticket and 34 permit returns since 1990 demonstrate extensive hunting 35 effort in Units 1 and 3 among rural residents of 36 communities throughout Southeast Alaska. For Units 1A 37 and 3 remainder, in which all rural residents can hunt 38 moose under Federal regulations, all of the harvest in 39 Unit 1A and 99 percent in Unit 3 remainder of reported 40 moose hunting activity by rural residents of Alaska was 41 by rural residents of Units 1 through 5. And, again, 42 rural residents from outside of Southeast Alaska may be 43 reasonably excluded from the customary and traditional 44 use determination for moose in Units 1A and 3, due to 45 the limited evidence of historical hunt activity and 46 their distance from the resource. 47 48 So the effects of this proposal. 49



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1 If this proposal is adopted only rural 2 residents of Southeast Alaska will be eligible to 3 harvest moose under Federal regulations, seasons, 4 harvest limits, gear types and permits in Units 1 and 5 3. 6 7 The OSM preliminary conclusion is to 8 support the proposal with the following justification. 9

10 Residents of Units 1 through 5 have 11 demonstrated use harvest and sharing of moose in Units 12 1 and 3. Moose have a clear historical and 13 contemporary role in the subsistence patterns of the 14 region. Residents frequently travel long distances 15 with a variety o transportation types to harvest and 16 share moose resources. Residents of Units 1 through 5 17 are also near and reasonable accessible to Units 1 and 18 3 for the harvest and use of moose. Furthermore, more 19 than 99 percent of the moose hunting by Federally- 20 qualified subsistence users in Units 1A and 3 remainder 21 was by rural residents of Units 1 through 5 since 1990. 22 Rural residents from outside of Southeast Alaska may be 23 reasonably excluded from the customary and traditional 24 use determination for moose in Units 1A and 3. 25 26 Thank you, Madame Chair. That's the 27 end of my presentation. 28 29 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Ms. 30 Kenner. Are there any questions from the Council for 31 Ms. Kenner. 32 33 Mr. Hernandez. 34 35 MR. HERNANDEZ: What's the customary 36 and traditional use determination for moose in Unit 5? 37 I know it's not part of this analysis but, I don't 38 know, we did have a discussion I know when we put 39 forward this proposal about, you know, how to deal with 40 Unit 5. 41 42 MS. KENNER: Thank you, for the 43 question. Madame Chair. The customary and traditional 44 use determination for moose in Unit 5 are for residents 45 of Unit 5A. 46 47 MR. HERNANDEZ: Okay. So did you, in 48 your analysis -- I know -- I guess we didn't ask it to 49 be part of the analysis, but I don't know if there's



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1 anything in your analysis to show that there'd be any 2 reason why to change that for Unit 5? 3 4 MS. KENNER: Thank you for the 5 question. Through the Chair. This is Pippa Kenner 6 with OSM. No, at this moment I cannot recall why that 7 was but I can get that information for you. 8 9 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Ms.

10 Kenner. I think Mr. Schroeder remembers why we did the 11 proposal the way we did it. 12 13 MR. SCHROEDER: I either remember or 14 I'll make something up that's really convincing. 15 16 (Laughter) 17 18 MR. SCHROEDER: But I think I remember 19 and Unit 5 moose have been an issue of management 20 concern for as long as any of us have been involved in 21 fish and wildlife management. Under the State system, 22 even before subsistence, before Federal subsistence 23 there was a jump given to local residents and that was 24 worked out with the community in Yakutat. We left this 25 off our proposal because we wanted more interaction 26 with Yakutat. And for the other C&T proposals that we 27 dealt with for wildlife, none of those proposals 28 involve other regulatory changes. If we acted on a 29 customary and traditional use determination for 30 Yakutat, which would likely be for all residents -- all 31 rural residents of Units 1 through 5, that would need 32 to be accompanied by a Section .804 request. In other 33 words if we wanted to keep things exactly the way they 34 are right now, we'd have to go through an .804 request 35 to make sure that local people in Yakutat had a fair 36 share of the moose because they depend on moose quite a 37 bit. We elected not to do that because we didn't have 38 enough input from our Yakutat Council members and we 39 need to have discussion with the community before we 40 get ahead of them on that. 41 42 I'd anticipate and suggest that in the 43 next wildlife cycle that we take that on because that 44 would then complete our suite of work on customary and 45 traditional use determinations for wildlife in 46 Southeast Alaska. 47 48 Thank you. 49



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1 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 2 Schroeder. Are there any other questions from Council 3 members for Ms. Kenner. 4 5 Ms. Phillips. 6 7 MS. PHILLIPS: Thank you. I would like 8 to put on the record that there is moose in Unit 4, I 9 mean they're starting to move into Unit 4. I know your

10 analysis said that Unit 4 wasn't included because 11 there's no known population, but there is. 12 13 (Laughter) 14 15 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. Any 16 other questions for Ms. Kenner. 17 18 (No comments) 19 20 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, 21 report on Board consultation from tribes or ANCSA 22 Corporations. 23 24 MR. LIND: Madame Chair. Council 25 members. Native liaison for OSM. There was no 26 questions or comments on Wildlife Proposal 20-15. 27 28 Thank you, Madame Chair. 29 30 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. 31 Agency comments, do we have someone on the phone from 32 Alaska Department of Fish and Game. 33 34 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Madame Chair. 35 This is Ryan Scott with the Department in Juneau. The 36 Department is neutral on this proposal as this is a C&T 37 finding rather than an establishment of seasons and bag 38 limits for moose across Units 1 and 3. 39 40 I would like to add, though, I 41 appreciate Member Hernandez and Member Schroeder asking 42 about Unit 5 and the moose populations and C&T findings 43 for that area, and also Member Phillips, I would just 44 affirm what she put out there, we certainly are aware 45 of moose getting on to both Admiralty and Chichagof. I 46 can't say I've heard anything about Baranof yet. It's 47 fairly -- it's not uncommon at this day and age to get 48 a phone call about, you know, from folks telling us 49 they've seen moose walking on the beach or encounter



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1 moose in the woods on both those islands. It doesn't 2 appear that they've taken off and grown but they 3 certainly are moving around and they're extremely 4 capable swimmers and that may be something that we all 5 need to visit in the future. 6 7 Thank you. 8 9 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr.

10 Scott. Are there any questions from the Council for 11 the Alaska Department of Fish and Game. 12 13 (No comments) 14 15 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right. Any 16 agency comments from Federal agencies -- other Federal 17 agencies. 18 19 MS. PERRY: No, Madame Chair. 20 21 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Tribal entities. 22 23 MS. PERRY: No. 24 25 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Advisory group 26 comments from other Regional Councils. 27 28 MS. PERRY: No other Regional Councils 29 commented on this proposal. 30 31 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Fish and Game 32 Advisory Committees. 33 34 MS. PERRY: Yes, Madame Chair. One 35 written public comment from the Ketchikan Advisory 36 Committee was submitted and can be found starting on 37 Page 345 of your meeting book. And that comment 38 states: 39 40 Hunting of moose is not customary and 41 traditional use in all units residing in Southeast. 42 43 That was the only comment received from 44 a Fish and Game Advisory Committee. 45 46 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. Any 47 comments from Subsistence Resource Commissions. 48 49 MS. PERRY: Yes, Madame Chair. The



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1 Wrangell-St. Elias National Park Subsistence Resource 2 Commission supports this proposal and states: 3 4 The proposed change will benefit 5 subsistence users by making the regulations more 6 uniform for communities in the region. And less 7 complex regulations will be easier for subsistence 8 users to follow. 9

10 Thank you. 11 12 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. Are 13 there any written public comments. 14 15 MS. PERRY: None, other than the other 16 two read into the record. 17 18 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right. Is 19 there any public testimony from members in the audience 20 on the proposal or anyone on the phone. 21 22 (No comments) 23 24 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right. What 25 is the wish of the Council. 26 27 Mr. Hernandez. 28 29 MR. HERNANDEZ: I move to adopt 30 Wildlife Proposal 20-15. 31 32 MR. LEIGHTON: Second. 33 34 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Seconded by Mr. 35 Leighton. It's been moved and seconded to adopt 36 Wildlife Proposal 20-15, discussion from Council 37 members. 38 39 Mr. Bemis. 40 41 MR. BEMIS: Thank you, Mrs. Chair. I 42 liked the review of Mr. Hernandez, that we wait until 43 the next cycle on this because we haven't had a survey 44 of the moose and we've been a limited -- we've only had 45 a five moose increase over the last say couple years, 46 it's always been at 25. This is the local subsistence 47 hunt. We've expanded the outer parameters of the 48 hunting area to earlier openings to take the pressure 49 off of the local hunt in Unit 5. Because of the amount



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1 of participation, there's be up to 70 hunters trying to 2 take 25 moose in a small area. So expansion east of 3 the Dangerous, we've given an earlier hunt starting, I 4 think on September 15th, and also across the bay in the 5 area of 5B, we made that an earlier hunt. Now, what 6 has happened here since we've done this is we've spread 7 the hunting out to take the pressure away from the 8 local subsistence hunt. 9

10 Until we get an aerial survey, which 11 I'm not even sure when the last one was done, but 12 because of the lack of aircraft and the lack of snow, 13 we are kind of stuck where we're at of 30 moose for a 14 subsistence hunt and 30 moose east of the Dangerous, 15 and I think it's 25 across the bay in Area 5B. 16 17 So within -- hopefully this year, we'll 18 get a survey done and give us a better look at what 19 kind of herd we have in all three areas. And maybe by 20 this time this could be revisited within the year when 21 decisions get made on actual rulings. 22 23 At this time I would suggest no action 24 until we get a survey of the area of the moose. At 25 this time no one seems to know -- they will not say if 26 it's good or bad, if it's up or down, because they 27 don't know, it takes an aerial survey. 28 29 Thank you. 30 31 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 32 Bemis. To clarify, my understanding is your discussion 33 items are relating specifically to Unit 5 moose. 34 35 MR. BEMIS: Yes. 36 37 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: And the proposal 38 on the table is for Units 1 and 3 moose, a customary 39 and traditional use determination for moose in Units 1 40 and 3. So when you say or recommend we take no action, 41 you're actually saying -- you're confirming what Mr. 42 Hernandez said to put in a proposal on Unit 5, but that 43 we're still considering Units 1 and 3 under this 44 proposal. 45 46 MR. BEMIS: Yes. This was for 5. And 47 3, I'm not really sure in that department. 48 49 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right. Are



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(No opposing votes)


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1 there other Council member comments or discussion items 2 regarding Wildlife Proposal 20-15, which is customary 3 and traditional use of moose in Units 1 and 3 for rural 4 residents in Units 1 through 5. 5 6 Mr. Hernandez. 7 8 MR. HERNANDEZ: Thank you, Ms. Needham. 9 Yeah, I'm going to support this proposal as well. It's

10 another proposal in the Council's efforts to make the 11 customary and traditional use determinations reflect 12 more of what the subsistence users are doing in 13 Southeast Alaska. I did want to raise that issue about 14 Unit 5 because, you know, it was excluded from this 15 analysis and I just -- I wanted to, you know, make sure 16 it was clear that there was, you know, nothing lacking 17 in the analysis to, you know, help us make this 18 decision. 19 20 What Mr. Schroeder reminded us all of 21 is was that we did -- the Council is aware of, you 22 know, different situations in Yakutat that may be 23 visited in the future but for right now we have a good 24 thorough analysis on what the Council requested for 25 Units 1 and 3 and I think I can vote in the 26 affirmative. 27 28 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 29 Hernandez. Other Council discussion or comments. 30 31 32 (No comments) 33 34 MR. LEIGHTON: Question. 35 36 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, the 37 question's been called. The motion on the table is to 38 adopt Wildlife Proposal 20-15 which requests to modify 39 customary and traditional use determination for moose 40 in Units 1 and 3, to include residents of Units 1 41 through 5. All in favor of the motion signify by 42 saying aye. 43 44 IN UNISON: Aye. 45 46 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Any opposed, 47 signify by saying nay.



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public lands in Alaska. The program encourages


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1 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Motion carries 2 unanimously. 3 4 All right, we did it. 5 6 And we still have some time before 7 breaking for any kind of lunch hour so next up on our 8 agenda is the 2020 Fisheries Resource Monitoring 9 Program and I'll ask if Mr. Scott Ayers is ready to

10 give us a presentation. 11 12 (Pause) 13 14 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, Mr. 15 Ayers and your team. 16 17 (Laughter) 18 19 MR. AYERS: Okay, so for the record my 20 name is Scott Ayers. I'm a fisheries biologist at the 21 Office of Subsistence Management in Anchorage. This is 22 not the traditional meeting that I attend but I am 23 pleased to be here with you this week. It's been 24 enlightening and very enjoyable. Thank you to this 25 Council for that. I have a habit of not speaking very 26 loudly into the mics so if anyone has troubles anywhere 27 along the line of hearing me, please let me know or 28 indicate in some way and I promise to speak up and try 29 and do better. 30 31 Along with me today are Pippa Kenner 32 with OSM and Terry Suminski to assist as needed. 33 34 So my goal today is to present you with 35 a brief overview of the Fisheries Resource Monitoring 36 Program and its accomplishments to date. I'll go 37 through the funding process, the regional overview and 38 finish up by requesting Council comments on the 39 projects that were submitted for the Southeast region 40 during the 2020 call for proposals. This is not an 41 action item so there's no motion necessary for this 42 process. And the materials for this presentation begin 43 on Page 379 in the Council book. 44 45 This program is a multi-disciplinary 46 collaborative effort that enhances subsistence 47 fisheries research and provides necessary information 48 for the management of subsistence fisheries on Federal



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priority information need development. Ideally,


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1 partnerships between tribes, rural organizations, 2 universities and Federal and State agencies. In 3 addition, it encourages inter-disciplinary approaches 4 to conducting research and addressing issues. 5 6 The Office of Subsistence Management 7 administers the monitoring program. The program has 8 intents of advocating projects of strategic importance 9 to the Federal Subsistence Management Program and

10 coordinating information sharing of ongoing and new 11 subsistence research efforts. 12 13 Since its inception in the year 2000, 14 the monitoring program has funded more than 450 15 projects statewide with a total allocation exceeding 16 $120 million. The figures on this slide demonstrate 17 both the allocation of funds and the number of projects 18 funded through the monitoring program by the 19 organizations of the principal investigator. Although 20 not displayed here, some of these funds have been 21 utilized by principal investigator organizations to 22 subcontract with research partners such as communities, 23 tribes and other research organizations. 24 25 The guideline allocation of funds by 26 region are provided on this slide. While these 27 guidelines provide initial targets for planning, 28 allocations are adjusted as needed to ensure that 29 quality projects are funded. 30 31 So kind of what we'll jump into next is 32 actually how the process works. 33 34 The program divides the state into six 35 different regions. These regions correspond to Federal 36 subsistence fisheries areas that generally hold stock, 37 harvest and community issues in common. In addition 38 there's a multi-regional category for information needs 39 that span more than one region. 40 41 During the first step of the process, 42 the Regional Advisory Councils, with support from OSM 43 Staff and Forest Service Staff as well as Federal and 44 State fishery and land managers ensure the monitoring 45 program focuses on the highest priority subsistence 46 fishery information needs for each region. Council's 47 ensure issues of local concern and knowledge gaps 48 related to subsistence fisheries are identified for



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Federal Subsistence Board receives and reviews Council


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1 principal investigators will work closely with the 2 Councils in order to develop strong proposals that are 3 responsive to those needs. The Office of Subsistence 4 Management provides technical assistance as needed in 5 this process. 6 7 The second step is requesting new 8 project proposals, which the program does every two 9 years. Submissions must be complete, on time, and

10 address the five criteria outlined in the notice of 11 funding opportunity in order to be competitive. The 12 criteria are; strategic priority, technical scientific 13 merit, investigator ability and resources, partnership 14 and capacity building and cost benefit of the project. 15 And there's a more detailed description of these five 16 criteria in the books on Page 383. 17 18 Once submitted a Technical Review 19 Committee evaluates and rates each project proposal 20 package. The Technical Review Committee is a standing 21 InterAgency Committee of senior technical experts 22 brought together to evaluate project proposals and 23 ensure the program is maintaining consistency with its 24 mission. It is the responsibility of the Technical 25 Review Committee to develop the strongest possible 26 monitoring program for all regions across the state 27 based on the evaluation of criteria. 28 29 During the proposal evaluation process, 30 the Technical Review Committee adheres to specific 31 guidelines in order to assess how well a project 32 addresses the five criteria. While some agencies may 33 have more than one senior expert on the committee, such 34 as a social scientist and a fisheries biologist, each 35 agency provides a single consolidated review. 36 Additionally, agencies also do not score their own 37 proposals. The final score for each proposal is based 38 on an assessment of those five criteria. 39 40 Once a draft monitoring program is 41 developed, it's brought before the Regional Advisory 42 Councils for their input and comments. This is where 43 we are at the current cycle and we'll come back to this 44 again in a moment. 45 46 The InterAgency Staff Committee will 47 provide additional comments on the process and Draft 48 2020 Fisheries Resource Monitoring Program. The



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have the greatest chance at successfully answering the


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1 comments and any comments provided by the InterAgency 2 Staff Committee. The Board takes into consideration 3 comments and concerns generated by the process, and 4 endorses a funding plan. The Assistant Regional 5 Director of OSM makes the final approval of the funding 6 plan with concurrence of the Forest Service for U.S. 7 Department of Agriculture funds. 8 9 So now we'll go through just a brief

10 overview of the Southeast region. 11 12 In Southeast Alaska more than 70 13 projects have been undertaken exceeding $22 million in 14 funding. You can see from the chart that project leads 15 have pretty well been evenly split between the State of 16 Alaska, Alaska rural organizations and the Department 17 of Agriculture. Many projects included agencies and 18 Alaska rural organizations as research partners. The 19 other category listed includes universities, non-profit 20 organizations, independent contractors and other non- 21 governmental organizations. 22 23 For the 2020 cycle there is an 24 anticipated 1 to 1.5 million dollars available for new 25 projects statewide, and up to $1.8 million for ongoing 26 projects that already funded. The available funding 27 amount for new 2020 is budgeted for each project's 28 first year, not the total request of the project. 29 30 For Southeast region there were three 31 projects submitted for the current cycle. The projects 32 are listed in numerical order by project number. 33 Justifications for the Technical Review Committee 34 scores begin on Page 390 of your Council books and 35 additional information from the project investigators 36 and executive summaries start on Page 394. So what you 37 see up here on the screen are the three projects that 38 were submitted this round. They're not listed in any 39 other order other than the project number that they 40 came in by. 41 42 So, once, again, we're at Step 4 of 43 this process. Today I'm asking this Council for your 44 comments on the Draft Monitoring Program for your 45 region. What our program is seeking is any thoughts or 46 ideas that the Council has on each proposed project 47 that would make them successful in the event that they 48 are funding. We want to ensure that selected projects



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need to be submitted again during our next call to be


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1 Council's information needs as possible. We also want 2 to know if the Council has any specific concerns about 3 a project based on the materials that have been 4 provided to this point. 5 6 And, lastly, after we get through that, 7 if the Council does want to speak that, we're always 8 interested in hearing any thoughts that the Council has 9 on the overall FRMP process.

10 11 And that's what I have for the moment. 12 13 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you,Mr. 14 Ayers. Are there Council members who have questions or 15 would like to give input to the Fisheries Resource 16 Monitoring Program. 17 18 (No comments) 19 20 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: It seems like 21 this would be the time for the Regional Advisory 22 Council members to weigh in on the projects that were 23 submitted, and those are the first set of comments or 24 information that you'd like feedback on and then after 25 that if there is just on the overall program, they can 26 make comments as well. 27 28 Mr. Douville. 29 30 MR. DOUVILLE: Thank you, Madame Chair. 31 I know that Sarkar was proposed for monitoring and 32 quite some time ago, and you said you accept 33 applications every two years, I don't know what 34 happened with that one, it never was funded or it 35 didn't meet a high enough criteria to be funded, but I 36 still think it's important as its an important sockeye 37 stream used by a lot of residents in Unit 2. But does 38 that have to be resubmitted or is it somewhere where 39 it's still being considered. 40 41 MR. AYERS: Thank you for the comment 42 and question. The proposals that come in are evaluated 43 during each cycle and then if they do not move forward 44 or if they do move forward and are funded for a period 45 of two, three or four years, they do need to be 46 submitted individually again for the next call for 47 proposals. So if there was a proposal submitted for 48 the Sarkar system for monitoring of sockeye it would



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members.


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1 eligible for the program. 2 3 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Mr. Douville. 4 5 MR. DOUVILLE: So they're only good for 6 a two year cycle then or they're only in the system for 7 that long and they have to be resubmitted to be 8 considered? 9

10 MR. AYERS: Through the Chair. Mr. 11 Douville. The call for proposals occurs every two 12 years, and projects may be requested for funding for up 13 to four years in total, so it's kind of an overlapping 14 call with projects that run for four years, so one set 15 of projects will be in the water, so to speak, and for 16 two years and then another call will occur and another 17 set of projects will start. 18 19 Does that answer the question? 20 21 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Yeah, Mr. 22 Douville. 23 24 MR. DOUVILLE: I know this one was 25 submitted but I don't know how long ago so I don't know 26 if it's still in the system and what its status is or 27 if it needs to be resubmitted. I'm sure that the Craig 28 Tribal Association would be interested in knowing what 29 the status is and if they need to resubmit or 30 information of that sort. 31 32 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 33 Douville. 34 35 Mr. Ayers. 36 37 MR. AYERS: I did also want to point 38 out that really, the main place that this Council 39 directs what happens with this program is through the 40 development of the priority information needs on the 41 front end, and it sounds as though that system would be 42 a good one to list within the next set of priority 43 information needs that we develop when we do the call 44 for the 2020 notice of funding opportunity. 45 46 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 47 Ayers. Are there other questions or comments regarding 48 the Fisheries Resource Monitoring Plan from Council



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2020, the Department of Interior through the U.S. Fish


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1 Mr. Bemis. 2 3 MR. BEMIS: Yes. My question -- this 4 is the first time I'm aware of this particular 5 monitoring and we've got issues where we're at and 6 might be a good idea to get on this monitoring resource 7 of different problems we're having in our area so the 8 next cycle rolls around, when is that. 9

10 MR. AYERS: Through the Chair. Mr. 11 Bemis. That's an excellent question, thank you. And 12 actually kind of walks right into a little bit of what 13 I was going to mention next, is that, at this Council's 14 next meeting, which is the winter 2020 meeting, we will 15 ask the Council to, if it chooses, nominate some 16 members to participate in a working group that would 17 begin the process of developing priority information 18 needs that would come before the Council again at the 19 fall 2020 meeting. And so that would be a good time to 20 kind of work through some of the various different 21 priority needs for the region. 22 23 MR. BEMIS: Thank you. 24 25 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 26 Ayers. Did you have something to add Mr. Suminski. 27 28 MR. SUMINSKI: Thanks, Madame Chair. 29 Mr. Bemis, if you take a look at Page 389 this is the 30 list of priority information needs that the Council put 31 together for this present cycle, and there's a couple 32 items on there for Yakutat, you may want to take a 33 close look at that and, you know, in forming your 34 thoughts for the next cycle. There's one about 35 eulachon on the Yakutat Forelands, and then an 36 ethnographic study of subsistence salmon in the Yakutat 37 area. So if you have other ideas, this next go around 38 would be a good time to modify those. 39 40 Thank you. 41 42 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 43 Suminski. Are there any other questions. 44 45 (No comments) 46 47 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: I have a 48 question. Under the available funds it identifies for



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MS. PHILLIPS: Thank you.


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1 and Wildlife Service is anticipating approximately $1.5 2 million in funding for statewide for new projects for 3 2020,and in the graph it looks like typically Southeast 4 projects are funded through the U.S. Department of 5 Agriculture but it doesn't identify whether or not 6 funding is available through the Department of 7 Agriculture, I don't know if you have any update for 8 that but is there actually a funding pool that will be 9 applied to Southeast or are these proposals put into

10 sort of the competitive pot that's being offered for 11 1.5 million with U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. 12 13 MR. WHITFORD: Madame Chair. Tom 14 Whitford. I'm the Regional Subsistence Program Leader 15 for the Forest Service. And right now we do have six 16 ongoing FRMP projects in Southeast. They're pretty 17 much all on the same timeline to end in 2020 -- 2021. 18 But currently we do have some funds available for this 19 coming year somewhere in the neighborhood of 500,000. 20 21 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 22 Whitford. 23 24 Ms. Phillips. 25 26 MS. PHILLIPS: Is that in addition to 27 the $310,000 average annual request or is that total 28 funds available for Southeast? 29 30 MR. WHITFORD: That would be pretty 31 much the total. It could be up -- it could be even 32 more than 500,000 but right now we have forward funded 33 some of the projects, the six that I just mentioned, 34 there is some forward funding on those for this next 35 year. So that does free up some money to fund projects 36 for the upcoming year. And the InterAgency Staff 37 Committee has not reviewed -- we're waiting for the 38 Council's to weigh in on -- to get their input on the 39 FRMP program for this upcoming cycle and the 40 InterAgency Staff Committee will be reviewing the list 41 of projects and we still have to go through the ranking 42 process and all of that. So I'm not quite sure, you 43 know, which projects will be funded, but we do have 44 funds available for this upcoming year for new 45 projects. 46 47 Does that answer your question? 48



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currently ongoing and have received forward funding.


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1 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: I think I'd like 2 a little clarification actually. So the average annual 3 request of the three projects that are being considered 4 right now amount to $310,000 and you're saying the 5 Department -- the U.S. Forest Service might have 6 approximately 500,000 available for the next year, but 7 these projects, when they're put in, I'm assuming are 8 multi-year projects, and so how does that work when you 9 make the decision of where the approximately $500,000

10 might be allocated. 11 12 MR. WHITFORD: Typically we fund each 13 project for the year, but one thing I did -- I probably 14 need to clarify, is some of the Forest Service funding 15 actually goes to Southcentral also. We try to fund 16 about 30 percent, or up to 30 percent of FRMP in 17 Southcentral since there is a significant amount of 18 Federal Forest Service public land in Southcentral 19 region so we do fund some of that FRMP program. 20 21 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. And 22 then I think when I asked that original question on 23 were any of these projects considered for funding under 24 the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service funds that are 25 available, the 1.5 million. 26 27 MR. AYERS: No, I don't believe so. I 28 think the way that it has played out is that there's a 29 table on Page 382, Table 1, and it shows the allocation 30 split for the regions between the Department of 31 Interior funds and Department of Agriculture funds. 32 And so for Southeast there's typically zero DOI funds 33 that go to that region. 34 35 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank 36 you. Are there other questions. 37 38 Ms. Phillips. 39 40 MS. PHILLIPS: What are the six forward 41 funded projects? 42 43 MR. AYERS: So thank you for the 44 question, Ms. Phillips. Through the Chair. On Page 45 393 is the list of projects -- well, that's part of the 46 list of projects that have been funded for the region 47 over time, and the projects that are listed near the 48 top of 393 start at 18- are the six projects that are



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with what is in that table as average annual request.


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1 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Other questions. 2 Are there any comments from Council members regarding 3 the actual three projects that are being evaluated this 4 cycle. 5 6 Ms. Phillips. 7 8 MS. PHILLIPS: Thank you, Chairman 9 Needham. So the amount of available funding is a

10 little less than 500,000 and, yet, we have three 11 projects with funding requests that exceed that amount 12 so how are you going to narrow the available funding 13 for each project? 14 15 MR. WHITFORD: I was busy looking -- 16 could you repeat the question, Ms. Phillips. 17 18 MS. PHILLIPS: So on Page 390 -- wait, 19 no -- yeah, 390 it shows total project request at 20 1,241,232 but the amount of available funding for 21 Southeast is less than 500,000 so how is it going to be 22 determined which of these projects, or how much funding 23 goes to each project? 24 25 MR. WHITFORD: I mean we could 26 potentially fund those three projects for the first 27 year and then we would be worrying about later years 28 with next year's funding. Or we could fund three of 29 the projects for one year and one of the projects for 30 two years. You know, just to -- with the funding that 31 we have available. Or some of that funding may be 32 going to Southcentral projects like I had just stated. 33 So we may be able to fund these projects and then 34 another project in Southcentral. 35 36 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Ms. Kenner. 37 38 MR. WHITFORD: Yeah, the 1.2 million, 39 that's funding those projects for four years. 40 41 I think Ms. Kenner has something to 42 add. 43 44 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Ms. Kenner. 45 46 MS. KENNER: Thank you, Madame Chair. 47 I think that pretty much covered it. But I just wanted 48 to say that the first year funding pretty much lines up



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1 So first year funding is all we're looking at really, 2 and so that says just over 310,000 and the projects 3 will be funded in their ranked order by the TRC, 4 generally. The projects are ranked. They're scored 5 and then ranked as one, two, three, and the funding 6 will go down that list until it's gone. So it is 7 likely that one or two or possibly all of these 8 projects will be funded depending on the Southeast -- 9 that funding. However, we will -- the Regional

10 Director -- our assistant Regional Director will take 11 into consideration the comments that he or she receives 12 through the process. 13 14 So we're just looking at the first year 15 of funding. We estimate 500,000. Part of that has to 16 go to Southeast -- Southcentral, but we forward funded 17 so the projects that are already started might already 18 be funded for that year which frees up money. 19 20 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. For 21 clarification, though, these projects that are up on 22 the board right now are not currently ranked, they're 23 just in order that they were received and you're still 24 looking for comments from this Council if they have 25 comments regarding maybe the importance of these 26 proposals or the work that's being proposed, you're 27 looking for that kind of feedback. Not ranking but 28 feedback from the Council members. 29 30 MR. AYERS: Through the Chair. Yes, 31 that's exactly right. We're looking for any comments 32 the Council may have that would help ensure that if 33 these were selected -- if any of these were selected, 34 what would make them successful, or, alternatively, any 35 specific concerns that the Council has about any of the 36 projects that have been proposed. 37 38 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. 39 40 Ms. Phillips. 41 42 MS. PHILLIPS: Thank you, Chairman 43 Needham. So if these are four year projects, and 44 there's potential for the first year of funding 45 available, is there an evaluation of the project after 46 one year to see if it's meeting the objectives that, 47 you know, it was chosen for funding? 48 49 MR. AYERS: Through the Chair. Ms.



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1 Phillips. Thank you for the question. Each of these 2 projects are funded in a way that we are aware of what 3 our budgets are on a one year basis, and so we 4 guarantee one year of project funding at a time. 5 There's, unfortunately not a way to say that we are 6 giving you all four years at one time. The intent is 7 that any project that's selected will be funded for the 8 duration of its life cycle that it applied for. And I 9 believe that, in all, it's worked out that way. But we

10 do issue funding on an annual basis. 11 12 With that said, there are requirements 13 through our agreements that financial reports and other 14 types of reporting occur on an annual basis to evaluate 15 those projects and how well they're doing and whether 16 or not there are any concerns with those projects. 17 However, that's not as an intent to cause a project to 18 no longer move forward, more, is there assistance 19 needed to ensure that the project continues to be 20 successful. 21 22 Thank you. 23 24 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Mr. Yeager. 25 26 MR. YEAGER: Thank you. I have a 27 biological question. So the list of projects funded 28 since 2000, and just for an example, the Neva Lake 29 sockeye salmon assessment appears to have been funded 30 every four years, so to speak, what's the triggers that 31 tell you this is no longer needed. I'm just curious, 32 do you -- is it 20 years or -- coming from a budgetary 33 standpoint, it's like is there a point in time where 34 you go, okay, we've got all the monitoring done that we 35 need and we'll move on and put that money elsewhere. 36 But I just never knew what those triggers are. 37 38 Thank you. 39 40 MR. SUMINSKI: Through the Chair. Mr. 41 Yeager. This is Terry Suminski. The projects that 42 you're looking at that we're doing this year, mainly -- 43 those are generally long-term projects. They're areas 44 of high importance to the communities and they do 45 fluctuate. Some of them have a very high harvest rate 46 and we, you know, as long as we can afford them those 47 would be good long-term, some of them have been going 48 since 2000 when we started the program. You see 49 there's some -- they're kind of distributed a bit



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1 throughout the region so it gives us an indicator of 2 not only that system but kind of that region over a 3 long period of time and that time series of data can be 4 very important not only for the actual fishery but 5 potentially some climate change issues and most all of 6 the projects also collect temperature data. So having 7 a presence at those different places on a long-term 8 basis can be very important. 9

10 We've had other projects where we've 11 gone in for, you know, a three year project or a four 12 year project, determined that the fish are very 13 abundant and the use is very low, for example, and 14 we've moved away from those to the ones that are a 15 little more better suited for long-term study. 16 17 So, thank you. 18 19 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. Are 20 there other Council comments. 21 22 Mr. Wright. 23 24 MR. WRIGHT: I'm just wondering, you 25 know, I know we have some -- in Hoonah we have done 26 Neva and then in Hoktaheen, we don't have anything -- I 27 don't know if we have anything going out there, but 28 we're being asked to comment on how do we make the 29 program successful, so the monitoring of these rivers, 30 and our comments, I'm curious how do our comments make 31 a project successful. 32 33 MR. AYERS: Through the Chair. Mr. 34 Wright, thank you for the question. At this point in 35 time the comments that are received from the Council 36 are taken into account by the assistant Regional 37 Director for OSM, as the decision process is being made 38 about how far down, based on budgets and otherwise, the 39 projects will get funded for the cycle. Additionally, 40 what we are really focused on is providing feedback to 41 the applicants, both if they're successful on thoughts 42 the Council might have to improve the project before 43 it's put in the water, but also if they are not 44 successful this time around, if it happens to be that 45 their project is not funded for whichever reason, that 46 they can resubmit that project at a later time with 47 this feedback and hopefully be successful in that 48 endeavor. 49



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1 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. 2 3 Mr. Douville. 4 5 MR. DOUVILLE: Thank you, Madame Chair. 6 These projects up here, like Eek Lake and Kasook Lake, 7 are right across the street from Hetta and Hetta's been 8 monitored since 2000, I think, and we haven't looked at 9 other systems on the island that are as heavily used as

10 those streams, such as Karta and Sarkar and Chipew Bay 11 (ph), other places, so I just wanted to point that out. 12 Like Eek Lake is a couple miles away from Hetta and 13 Kasook is just around the corner, but we've been 14 monitoring Cordova Bay sockeye for 20 years now. 15 16 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 17 Douville. Are there other comments regarding the 18 proposals. 19 20 21 (No comments) 22 23 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: I think I'd like 24 to add, I wouldn't comment on the Eek Lake, Kasook Lake 25 proposal because you can see I'm a co-investigator on 26 the project, however, I would like to comment at least 27 on the District 1 eulachon population assessment. This 28 Council has heard extensive testimony from Mr. Wagner 29 and we've actually talked quite a bit about the 30 importance of understanding how Unik River eluachon are 31 and the conservation concern that has been there and I 32 think it would be -- personally I think that would be 33 given that we have heard so much and have talked about 34 it so much that we would put a high importance on 35 having a population assessment funded and able to 36 continue there. 37 38 For the third proposal, we might not 39 have the history in terms of people coming before the 40 Council asking for that particular type of monitoring, 41 however, I do recall that at the last round there was a 42 proposal put forward and that there was a little 43 momentum for the folks that were putting that proposal 44 in. We did have a little bit of a discussion on that 45 at the -- I think during the last round. 46 47 And so I think that just in the region 48 when it comes to eulachon populations, we haven't spent 49 much time doing, or putting resources towards



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1 monitoring of that and it is -- while it's not the 2 highest priority for monitoring like sockeye is, I 3 think it's extremely important that we understand the 4 eulachon populations more. 5 6 So I know that we're not being asked to 7 rank or weight anything, but I think that it speaks 8 volumes that we have worked on the District 1 eulachon 9 population as an issue before the Council for a very

10 long time and personally I'd like to see that continued 11 funding. 12 13 Ms. Phillips. 14 15 MS. PHILLIPS: Yeah, so the way I 16 understand it is we have priority information needs 17 identified on Page 389, and so one of them is reliable 18 estimates of sockeye salmon escapement and it lists all 19 these following systems. So the only project that 20 passed Technical Review Committee justification was 21 this Eek Lake, Kasook Lake subsistence sockeye salmon 22 stock assessment project. I would say that it does 23 fall in line with our legacy funding to keep some 24 monitoring and stock assessment in that area of Prince 25 of Wales Island, and it is the only one we have for all 26 of Southeast that passed the Technical Review Committee 27 review. 28 29 Then for the eulachon, population 30 assessment -- under priority information needs, 31 population assessment for eulachon in northern 32 Southeast Alaska and escapement indices for eulachon at 33 Unik River and Yakutat Forelands. So the Project 20- 34 601 meets the priority information need for escapement 35 indexes for eulachon at Unik River and it has a 36 capacity building, you know, it builds capacity -- 37 shares capacity with Ketchikan Indian Association and 38 Metlakatla Tribe. And it has also been a system that 39 we, the RACs, have been concerned about. 40 41 The 20-603 does meet a priority 42 information need -- hum -- but I didn't know that was 43 on there so that's interesting to see that it's here 44 and it does have the -- also has a capacity building 45 working with -- who is that HCA, no, oh, Skagway, 46 working with Chilkoot Indian Association and Skagway 47 Tribal Council. 48 49 And then the first one has building



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1 capacity with Hydaburg Cooperative Association. 2 3 So, you know, I think they should all 4 be funded myself. 5 6 Thank you. 7 8 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Ms. 9 Phillips.

10 11 Mr. Ayers. 12 13 MR. AYERS: Thank you for those 14 comments and for all the other ones that we've received 15 up to this point. I did want to note that these were 16 the only three projects that were submitted during this 17 round of funding. It's not as though they were the 18 only ones that made it through any process we've had up 19 to this point in time, it's just these the three that 20 were submitted this time. 21 22 Thank you. 23 24 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you for 25 that clarification. Are there any other Council 26 comments regarding the Fisheries Resource Monitoring 27 Program. 28 29 Mr. Douville and then Mr. Wright. 30 31 MR. DOUVILLE: Okay. This is why I ask 32 these questions because I do, you know, know that 33 Sarkar is of importance and I know that the Craig Tribe 34 did submit a proposal but they don't know that it's not 35 on the back burner anymore, that it needs to be 36 resubmitted or dealt with so they're waiting to see, 37 well, what happened, but no one, I don't think ever 38 informed them that this is no longer a valid 39 application, you have to do it again. 40 41 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Mr. Ayers. 42 43 MR. AYERS: Through the Chair. Thank 44 you, Mr. Douville. During each notice of funding 45 opportunity cycle, those projects that both are 46 selected for funding and those that are not are 47 notified in the process whether or not they were 48 selected or not. We certainly can do additional 49 followup if you believe that there's been a



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1 miscommunication and we're always happy to do so. 2 3 Thank you. 4 5 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Mr. Wright. 6 7 MR. WRIGHT: Thank you, Madame Chair. 8 I really believe these programs are really important 9 because, you know, last year the sockeyes in Neva were

10 very, very low, you know, so anyway -- and I was 11 wondering about do you monitor eulachons in those 12 systems over there because I know that -- I think that 13 they do go up there? 14 15 MR. SUMINSKI: Through the Chair. Mr. 16 Wright. Which systems are you referring to, the ones 17 near Neva? 18 19 MR. WRIGHT: Roger. 20 21 MR. SUMINSKI: No. No, we don't monitor 22 those directly but if you have information it would be 23 something we could look at, you know, at least a 24 cursory view of it. 25 26 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. 27 28 Ms. Phillips, did you have your hand 29 up. 30 31 MS. PHILLIPS: I just wanted to comment 32 that the eulachon are an important forage food, it's 33 like a key fish species for all other fish species, 34 much like the Sitka herring is. 35 36 Thank you. 37 38 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. Are 39 there any other Council comments. I think -- I believe 40 Mr. Ayers asked us for both comments on the proposals 41 as well as just the Fisheries Resource Monitoring 42 Program, so you have that opportunity to speak on that 43 if you have not already. 44 45 Ms. Phillips. 46 47 MS. PHILLIPS: So on Page 381 where you 48 talk about program funds distributed. Is there other 49 -- I mean the cost-sharing, is that factored into this



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1 funding -- funds distributed because I mean some 2 projects might be Federal funded, and is there like 3 State funds that compliment it and is that considered 4 in total funds for a project. 5 6 MR. AYERS: Through the Chair. Ms. 7 Phillips. Thank you for the question. The table that 8 you referenced specifically details Federal funds that 9 have come through this program and does not note any

10 match or in-kind funds that have come to projects, 11 although that certainly is a regular source of funding 12 on these projects, it's simply not identified in this 13 table. The table also -- or the figure also denotes 14 the primary investigator and I would say that the 15 majority of the projects that we receive have, at 16 least, one co-investigator on them, that may be another 17 entity entirely, so it really does distribute funds to 18 a lot of places. It's been an impressive program. 19 20 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. 21 Follow up, Ms. Phillips. 22 23 MS. PHILLIPS: Thank you. So I guess 24 what I'm trying to get across is, though 117 million of 25 Federal funds have been allocated for the monitoring 26 program, there possibly is more funds than that spent 27 on monitoring program and it would be interesting to 28 know what that dollar value is. 29 30 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Ms. Kenner. 31 32 MS. KENNER: This is Pippa Kenner with 33 OSM. Thanks for the question, and we will try to 34 evaluate that for you for future presentations. 35 36 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank 37 you. Any other Council comments. 38 39 (No comments) 40 41 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Mr. Ayers, did 42 you have -- did we conduct our business, did you have 43 anything else that we needed to do. 44 45 Thank you. 46 47 MR. AYERS: Madame Chair, thank you. I 48 do have a few more fisheries items to cover very 49 briefly.



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1 The fisheries regulatory cycle and also 2 the Partners for Fisheries Monitoring Program. 3 4 For an update on the fisheries 5 regulatory cycle, as we heard earlier through the 6 Council report, the Federal Subsistence Board took 7 action on the last regulatory cycle proposals during 8 their April 2019 public regulatory meeting. The 9 revised regulations have been published in the Federal

10 Register and the new fisheries regulatory guides for 11 the years 2019/2021 are available. There were some on 12 the back desk. 13 14 The next call for proposals will be 15 early 2020, and this Council will have an opportunity 16 at your next meeting to discuss and submit any 17 proposals that you see fit at that time..... 18 19 MS. KENNER: For fisheries. 20 21 MR. AYERS: .....for fisheries -- thank 22 you, Pippa. 23 24 For the Partners for Fisheries 25 Monitoring Program. 26 27 The Partners for Fisheries Monitoring 28 Program seeks to strengthen Alaska Native and rural 29 involvement in Federal subsistence management by 30 providing funding for biologists, or social scientists 31 or educator positions in Alaska Native and rural non- 32 profit organizations with the intent of increasing the 33 organization's ability to participate in Federal 34 subsistence management. The Office of Subsistence 35 Management is currently processing cooperative 36 agreements for the 2020 to 2023 Partners for Fisheries 37 Monitoring Program. 38 39 There was a notice of funding 40 opportunity this past year for that cycle. 41 42 There were seven partner organizations 43 chosen through a competitive process. These 44 organizations are the Bristol Bay Native Association, 45 the Native Village of Eyak, the Native Village of 46 Napiamute, the Orutsaramiut Traditional Native Council 47 in Bethel, the Qawalangin Tribe of Unalaska, and the 48 Yakutat Tlingit Tribe. The last two are new to this 49 program and we're really looking forward to bringing



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1 them on. 2 3 And that completes my update. 4 5 I'm happy to take any questions. 6 7 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank 8 you. Are there any questions. 9

10 (No comments) 11 12 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, 13 hearing none, thank you all for coming forward and 14 presenting on the Fisheries Resource Monitoring 15 Program. We are at 12:30 so I think we're going to 16 have a lunch break, one hour, so we'll be back at 1:30. 17 18 I'll just remind Council members, it'll 19 be efficient if you think about annual report items 20 over the lunch hour so we can clear up that when we get 21 back to the table and then we'll move into the work 22 group stuff on the Roadless Rule. 23 24 (Off record) 25 26 (On record) 27 28 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, we're 29 going to go ahead and get started, hopefully the other 30 three Council members will be finishing up what they're 31 doing and come on in, I'm cracking the whip so to 32 speak. 33 34 (Laughter) 35 36 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Just 37 housekeeping item, for those of you that are leaving -- 38 Council members who are leaving on tonight's flight, 39 transportation and rides for the flight will be leaving 40 from the lobby here at Cape Fox Lodge at 6:15. 41 42 Mr. Gallegos from Ketchikan Indian 43 Community. He would like to come up and actually say 44 something about our last discussion item that we had, 45 which was the FRMP proposals so I'm going to give him 46 an opportunity to do that while we're waiting for our 47 other Council members to get here. 48 49 Mr. Gallegos.



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1 MR. GALLEGOS: Thank you, Madame Chair. 2 And thank you, Council. One of the things I just 3 really wanted to make -- I'm Tony Gallegos, of course, 4 and I'm on Staff with the Ketchikan Indian Community. 5 And I really wanted to thank you for supporting your 6 grant funding programs. Both of which I've applied for 7 and been rejected, at least one cycle, but we do have a 8 proposal in there for working on the Unik and I thank 9 you very much on behalf of our tribe that you've been

10 listening to the community's concerns about the 11 inability to be able to harvest Unik at any scale from 12 the Unik and Eulachon [sic] Rivers here just north of 13 town -- well, pretty far north of town. 14 15 So it has been great to be able to work 16 with the U.S. Forest Service over the past couple years 17 to actually get boots on the ground while the eulachon 18 were present and spawning. That was essential for us 19 to get a handle on the population status. I believe 20 you've received, not in your bound packet, but a report 21 from Jeff Reeves on the work that was done with them 22 last year. And I appreciate Misty Fjords Ranger 23 District Staff fisheries biologists and ranger for 24 supporting us in getting us up there. Logistics are 25 really difficult. The tribe has been concerned about 26 preserving the Unik River's water quality and we've 27 been trying to work with other partners to get a 28 handle, even on our baseline water quality for a number 29 of years now, but logistics are very difficult, and 30 especially if you're going to go up there when the 31 eulachon are spawning, it's one of the most difficult 32 times, just when the ice breaks is when we need to be 33 up there for period. 34 35 We've made it happen, but without 36 dedicated funding the past couple years. So as we -- 37 there's a proposal in here, again, Jeff Reeves is the 38 principal investigator, working with Ketchikan Indian 39 Community. We've invited the Organized Village of 40 Saxman, Metlakatla and Central Council Staff to also 41 participate. They weren't able to do that last year 42 but we're continuing to try to build that partnership 43 with them. And what this really does, by funding all 44 these proposals, and it's one of your criteria's for 45 prioritizing, is it helps build capacity. And it 46 really does help build our capacity. 47 48 My department is the cultural resources 49 department and we run our natural resource



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1 environmental and cultural programs, and subsistence- 2 type based programs in that area but it's only actually 3 been in existence for a little over four years. So we 4 do need to build capacity from KIC. Even though we're a 5 fairly large tribe we haven't been involved with 6 natural resource management issues very much. So the 7 tribe is committed to provide, you know, dedicated 8 Staff. I do have three people, including myself in 9 that department right now, but we still need to build

10 capacity. And, again, by participating with other 11 partners on projects like this it really helps us get 12 there. We've been very fortunate to work with the 13 State on projects. We were up there with the Alaska 14 Monitoring Assessment Program this last summer, and I 15 know that was mentioned, collecting some water quality 16 data. I had to miss your morning program because I was 17 actually on the Southeast Alaska Fish Habitat 18 Partnership quarterly call and we were talking about 19 some of the partnerships and programs. And that really 20 helps the tribe get involved. Working with non- 21 profits, State agencies, and Federal partners. 22 23 I just thank you for considering our 24 project, all the projects are worthy of funding as you 25 have there, and I'm glad you have -- these all fit 26 within your priorities and I would recommend funding 27 all three of these. Even if you can't guarantee it for 28 more than a year, a year is better than nothing. And 29 we'll continue to seek funding and we'll leverage this 30 funding with other grants. I'm looking at applying for 31 an A&A grant, and if we get this funding that will, you 32 know, be able to service some match in-kind. 33 34 The proposal that I'm specifically 35 involved with is very conservative. It's the smallest 36 number. We are donating our time from all the 37 agencies, and our Staff, that's part of our in-kind 38 contribution. We are really just looking for 39 assistance on logistics, to be able to get there safely 40 and back and be able to have a place to stay and 41 provide a little bit of equipment, but very minor. So 42 it's very conservative. If you had the money I'd ask 43 for twice as much if I knew it would get funded, we 44 would use it. But this is a good starting place. And 45 I do appreciate the opportunity to request funding from 46 this particular RFP. 47 48 The other thing I'll just mention, I 49 apply for a lot of grants on behalf of the partner --



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1 trying to build with limited resources, we have to seek 2 grant funding and this particular proposal is rigorous 3 enough, it has a lot of scrutiny but the reporting and 4 the administrative management is still reasonable, 5 which is very, very much appreciated, so we can 6 dedicate more of our time to working on the project 7 than reporting and doing administrative tasks 8 associated with the project. And I'm sure that also 9 frees up your OMB Staff's time as well. So I think

10 you've got the right balance of what you're asking for 11 to be provided and the reporting requirement. 12 13 So I just wanted to thank you for those 14 programs. I thank you also, the Partners Program, 15 which I wasn't funded for, but I will apply for it 16 again, but it won't be until four years that I have 17 that opportunity, but I could really use some funding 18 to help provide another like fisheries type Staff 19 position to work with the agencies on all the issues 20 that are out there. And that was my basic concept that 21 I requested money for. But last year was the first 22 year funding was even available for Southeast Alaska, 23 so I hope you will look into that and make sure that 24 funding is available and then the next four year cycle 25 for Southeast Alaska, maybe even make Southeast Alaska 26 a priority for funding since it hasn't been able to 27 participate in that particular funding in the past. 28 29 And that's about all I had. 30 31 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Great, thank 32 you. Are there any questions or comments back for Mr. 33 Gallegos. 34 35 (No comments) 36 37 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, 38 hearing none, thank you so much for coming forward and 39 explaining your program more and, you know, I think 40 it's important that we're all working towards assuring 41 that we have funds to do population assessments 42 especially when it comes to understanding resources 43 that subsistence users rely upon in the region. 44 45 So I appreciate your efforts. 46 47 For those Council members that were not 48 here a moment ago, just as a housekeeping item, there 49 will be rides to the airport at 6:15 tonight if you're



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1 leaving on this evening's flight, they'll leave from 2 the lobby here at Cape Fox. 6:15. 3 4 The next item on our agenda is to 5 identify issues for the fiscal year 2019 annual report 6 and I believe our Council coordinator has something on 7 that. 8 9 MS. PERRY: Thank you, Madame Chair.

10 This is an action item for the Council. It's time for 11 the Council to decide what issues to include in its 12 annual report. ANILCA established the annual reports 13 as a way to bring regional subsistence uses and needs 14 to the attention of the Directors of each of those four 15 Department of Interior Agencies and the Department of 16 Agriculture, Forest Service, in their capacity as 17 members of the Federal Subsistence Board. 18 19 For your information the guidelines for 20 the annual reports can be found on Pages 399 and 400 of 21 your meeting books. And starting on Page 401 you'll 22 see the Board's reply to this Council's last annual 23 report. 24 25 So through the Chair, if Council 26 members have concerns or information that he or she 27 would like to see raised to the Federal Subsistence 28 Board, I'll make a note of those items at this time and 29 I would like to recognize that Mr. Bob Schroeder did 30 offer an annual report earlier in the meeting regarding 31 youth engagement and aid in getting students to 32 meetings. So I can add that to start us off. 33 34 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. So 35 do any Council members have other items for the annual 36 report that they would like to add. 37 38 Mr. Hernandez. 39 40 MR. HERNANDEZ: I have a couple. I 41 would like to know if we can get some more funding for 42 wildlife research management projects. I don't really 43 know what the status of that program is. I know it was 44 active at one time with funding, but I don't even know 45 if it exists anymore. But I'd just like to make the 46 request that, you know, the Council does see a need for 47 more wildlife research managing projects. 48 49 And the other item that I wrote down to



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1 add to the report is, I think it was in the previous 2 report, but nothing much has changed, so we probably 3 ought to add it again. We would like to see the 4 biologists who are, you know, doing the analysis on a 5 lot of these proposals, we would like to have them in 6 attendance at the meetings instead of talking to them 7 on the phone. I think it really makes a difference. 8 You know we have a lot of questions for these folks and 9 sometimes just having conversations with them, you

10 know, during the course of the meeting really helps us 11 kind of formulate what kind of questions we want to ask 12 quite often. So I think it changes the way the 13 meetings go when they're here, present. And I know 14 it's probably a funding issue but maybe that can be 15 resolved. 16 17 That's what I had. 18 19 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 20 Hernandez. 21 22 I had noted that last item as well 23 because it was in our previous annual report and the 24 response that we got back from the Board, I felt, was 25 -- well, they responded that we actually have better 26 Staff representation at our meetings and I don't know 27 that I would necessarily disagree that we have some 28 good quality Staff here in the room that help us 29 through these situations but their count was that, at 30 least eight Forest Service employees were at our last 31 meeting and I think that's a miss-representation. I 32 think that's just counting everybody that signed in, 33 regardless of the amount of time that they spent here 34 to assist us and work through issues that we had. And 35 so I felt like the Board's response on that annual 36 report letter was a little misleading in that aspect. 37 So I think if we're going to keep the issue to carry 38 forward into our next annual report, that maybe we 39 should assure that we still need the biologist here and 40 what Mr. Hernandez has said, it loses a value when 41 they're trying to present proposals to us over the 42 telephone system. 43 44 So I wanted to just add a little bit 45 more of that since I highlighted it too. 46 47 Are there other annual report items 48 that Council members might have. 49



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1 Mr. Schroeder. 2 3 MR. SCHROEDER: Well, I just looked 4 through our last annual report and it seemed like we 5 left out, perhaps because we thought that we had 6 received some action on correspondence, and this year 7 we had some very important correspondence that the 8 Council dutifully prepared, which was stuck up in OSM 9 for literally months and only pried loose with great

10 effort on the part of our valiant coordinator. This is 11 completely unacceptable. 12 13 We're coming up on something else which 14 is important to this Council, which are the Roadless 15 Rule comments, and we simply -- it's not acceptable for 16 us to wait for weeks and weeks or months and months to 17 have our well thought out correspondence reviewed. 18 19 So we need an item on correspondence. 20 21 Then when we talk about Roadless 22 comments, I think we should resolve the way we'll 23 transmit those. 24 25 Thank you. 26 27 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank 28 you, Mr. Schroeder. 29 30 Other annual report items. 31 32 Ms. Phillips. 33 34 MS. PHILLIPS: Thank you, Chairman 35 Needham. I know that our Roadless Rule Committee is 36 talking about the .810 hearings, but I think that we 37 should include it in our annual report as well, that 38 the Roadless Rule, to us, is a land management plan, 39 that require Section .810 hearings and then the 40 analysis related to an .810 outcome. So I think that 41 should be in our annual report. 42 43 Thank you. 44 45 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank 46 you, Ms. Phillips. 47 48 Any other annual report items.



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1 (No comments) 2 3 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: I had 4 highlighted from our last annual report that we had 5 concerns about subsistence shrimp and the Board's 6 response was that they encourage the Council to write a 7 letter directly to the Board of Fisheries to express 8 the concerns that it received and I highlighted that 9 because I was like, finally a good answer from the

10 Board when we bring an issue before them and they're 11 giving us a good constructive thing. And so I think 12 that -- I know we haven't taken action to do that 13 letter necessarily, but I think it's important to let 14 them know that we appreciate them giving us an avenue 15 of recourse from when we raise concerns to them, if it 16 can actually go outside of the -- correspondence go 17 outside of the Board. 18 19 Are there other -- Mr. Kitka. 20 21 MR. KITKA: Thank you, Madame Chair. I 22 want to -- just kind of a placeholder for the letters 23 for extra-territorial jurisdiction on the herring in 24 Sitka Sound. I want to thank the Board for sending 25 some guidelines down. I still might need more help on 26 this as time goes on because we're basically in the 27 beginning stages. We got, as far as Sitka's concerned, 28 we're going through the different clans within Sitka to 29 go and getting all the information they got on it and 30 we're going to work on putting -- it's great to have 31 some guidelines to go by. 32 33 Thank you. 34 35 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 36 Kitka. Are there other annual report items. 37 38 (No comments) 39 40 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, I 41 have funding for the continued student participation in 42 the Federal Subsistence Program. The potential for 43 wildlife resource monitoring projects. Assuring that 44 we are adequately Staffed and have biologists available 45 at meetings. The correspondence issues and also 46 specifically about being able to comment on the 47 Roadless Rule, and in a timely manner. The Section 48 .810 hearings under the Roadless Rule and assuring that 49 we are able to have them, even when it's rulemaking,



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1 because we consider those important for land 2 management. Getting Board responses that address our 3 concerns when they're outside of the Board's purview, 4 giving us helpful ways to take it to the next step. 5 And then ETJ in Sitka Sound. 6 7 Are there any others that I might have 8 missed. 9

10 11 (No comments) 12 13 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right. Do 14 we need an action on this? 15 16 MS. PERRY: Yes, Madame Chair. 17 18 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Is there a 19 motion from the Council. 20 21 Mr. Hernandez. 22 23 MR. HERNANDEZ: Thank you, Ms. Needham. 24 I make the motion that the items which you just read be 25 included in our next annual report of the Council. 26 27 MR. YEAGER: Second. 28 29 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. It's 30 been moved and seconded that the list of items that I 31 just read be included for our next annual report to the 32 Federal Subsistence Board. All in favor say aye. 33 34 IN UNISON: Aye. 35 36 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Any opposed, say 37 nay. 38 39 (No opposing votes) 40 41 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Motion carried 42 unanimously. 43 44 Yes, Ms. Perry. 45 46 MS. PERRY: Madame Chair. I just 47 wanted to remind the Council that this will come before 48 them for a final vote at the next meeting and they will 49 actually be voting on the specific language that we're



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1 including. 2 3 Thank you. 4 5 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Mr. Hernandez. 6 7 MR. HERNANDEZ: When we finalize this, 8 is that opportunity also to add more things to the 9 list?

10 11 MS. PERRY: Yes, Mr. Chair. 12 13 MR. HERNANDEZ: Thank you. 14 15 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, now 16 to kind of finish up some business that we started at 17 the beginning of the meeting. I believe Ms. Perry is 18 going to give us a handout, which is the product of the 19 working group on the Alaska Roadless Rule so that we 20 can share it with the rest of the Council so that we 21 can go through it. 22 23 Yes, Ms. Phillips. 24 25 MS. PHILLIPS: What about a letter to 26 the Board of Fish from our annual report. Would it be 27 appropriate to make a motion now to submit a letter? 28 29 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Yes, I'll 30 entertain a motion on that while she's preparing for 31 this next thing. 32 33 MS. PHILLIPS: Okay. Move to approve a 34 letter to the Alaska Board of Fish on our annual report 35 Item 1, concerns about subsistence shrimp. 36 37 MR. YEAGER: Second. 38 39 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: It's been 40 seconded by Mr. Yeager. 41 42 Is there any discussion about the -- is 43 there any discussion. 44 45 MS. PHILLIPS: Thank you, Madame Chair. 46 47 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Yes, Ms. 48 Phillips. 49



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1 MS. PHILLIPS: I think we can just 2 include that whole excerpt on Item 1 in the letter. 3 4 Thank you. 5 6 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you for 7 that. Any other discussion. 8 9 (No comments)

10 11 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, the 12 motion is to provide for -- for the Council to write a 13 letter directly to the Alaska Board of Fish on the 14 concerns about subsistence shrimp that were highlighted 15 in our last annual report. All in favor signify by 16 saying aye. 17 18 IN UNISON: Aye. 19 20 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Any opposed, 21 nay. 22 23 (No opposing votes) 24 25 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Motion carried 26 unanimously. 27 28 All right, you now all have before you 29 the draft -- what the working group for the Alaska 30 Roadless came up with. It includes -- just to make 31 sure we have them all, 33 bullet points. What we are 32 going to do, what the working group is bringing back to 33 the Council is to share with you what the main topics 34 that we want to cover in our comments during the 60 day 35 comment period on the Draft EIS, so these are by topic, 36 the 33 topics that were identified that will be fleshed 37 out in more detail. We need to go through this so that 38 we have them all on the record and then we'll give 39 Council members an opportunity, if there's something in 40 here that you don't feel is appropriate we can talk 41 about potentially removing it and, more importantly if 42 there's something that the working group missed and you 43 want to add, we'll work on trying to add. 44 45 So by way of a quick presentation to go 46 through it, and we can talk about details of any of 47 these after we go through the whole list of 33 if you 48 need to.



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1 So the beginning of the letter will 2 start out, really, our oppositions to the changes in 3 the Roadless Rule is a heart (ph) issue. Council 4 members, tribes and individuals testifying at the 5 Southeast Alaska Regional Advisory Council has spoken 6 about how protecting what remains of the Tongass 7 National Forest is integral to their continued 8 subsistence uses, to cultural survival and to personal 9 well-being. Probably thousands of people have

10 testified and sent in comments referring to how the 11 Tongass National Forest is central to them and their 12 tribes communities existence and health. While this is 13 the essence of SERAC's comments, we need to be thorough 14 with the formal technical comments. And that's just a 15 reminder to us, this isn't going in the letter 16 obviously but it's a reminder to us that the working 17 group has identified the topic, but we still really 18 need to put the details into it. 19 20 So the first topic item is assuring 21 that in our comments we have a full description of the 22 Southeast Alaska Regional Council and the fact that 23 it's a FACA committee with responsibilities under 24 ANILCA so we'll probably put language in there from our 25 ANILCA charter, include some background on how we've 26 participated in Forest Service planning events in the 27 past and in the working group, Ms. Phillips -- Member 28 Phillips was able to bring forward some annual report 29 language from 1996, you know, she just got her 25 year 30 service award so she was able to pull up her old 31 records and bring together some words that we could 32 integrate into our comments. So that's what that 33 bullet point, where Patty, when we get into the 34 details, will add that text. 35 36 Bullet Point No. 2. FACA, what FACA 37 means and providing advice to the Federal government 38 and then we need to ask or clarify the question of 39 whether or not the State of Alaska, the Citizen's 40 Advisory Committee they put together, whether those 41 recommendations violate the intention of FACA. And I 42 think this lends towards that the fact that we are a 43 FACA group to the Department of Agriculture whereas 44 that committee was not a FACA group, however, a 45 significant amount of weight of the work of that 46 committee was actually put into the Draft EIS, and so 47 there is a potential that that could have been a FACA 48 violation.



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1 Bullet Point No. 3. Motives. 2 Questioning the motives of the supporters of 3 Alternative 6. And maybe putting in something from 4 that -- the correspondence that has come out of the 5 tribal cooperating agency, basically saying that this 6 Regional Advisory Council agrees with the tribes, the 7 tribal cooperating agency and if I'm missing something 8 on that one maybe Mr. Schroeder could help me out. 9 Supporting the tribal cooperating agency and the work

10 that they've been doing. 11 12 The next bullet point is about Section 13 .810. This is like the foundation, or the bedrock for 14 ANILCA protection of subsistence users, from egregious 15 land use actions that may significantly reduce 16 subsistence opportunities. The Draft EIS and the 17 Roadless Staff did not commit to following Section .810 18 provisions. This Council had pushed for a Section .810 19 determination. We heard early in our proceedings that 20 after asking the question of whether or not the Draft 21 EIS that indicates a Section .810 determination may be 22 made, if appropriate, we asked whether or not that 23 commitment was still going to be honored and Mr. 24 French, at that time, could not verify whether it would 25 be or not and so that kind of left an opening for that 26 question. However, I will state for the record that 27 Mr. French did follow up with Mr. Hernandez and they 28 will be providing something back in writing to the 29 Southeast Regional Advisory Council to assure us that 30 it is still the intention for a Section .810 31 determination to be made. 32 33 And I don't know if you have anything 34 to add to that, Mr. Hernandez, is that correct? 35 36 MR. HERNANDEZ: No, that's correct, 37 Cathy. He indicated to me that we would receive a 38 letter affirming that but I don't believe we've 39 received that as of this time. 40 41 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Okay. And then 42 on that topic, with the Section .810, assuring that 43 there would be an analysis at the Final EIS, that would 44 need to -- or in the Section .810 determination, that 45 it would need to include a rigorous evaluation of 46 cumulative effects, so how the rulemaking process and 47 how the lifting of the Roadless Rule actually impacts 48 all of the other decisions that are being made on the 49 Tongass at this time, so cumulative effects needs to be



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1 included in that determination. 2 3 In the NEPA process, the final result 4 from the Department of Agriculture would be record of 5 decision and the record of decision would need to 6 establish a rationale for why the action was necessary 7 if it is determined that the Section .810 determination 8 says that there's a significant impact to subsistence 9 users or access to subsistence resources.

10 11 It was also pointed out that when 12 subsistence analysis are done they look at access to 13 subsistence and that some people may make the case that 14 road building improves or provides additional 15 subsistence resource access, however, in the work group 16 it was discussed that the EIS says that the roads that 17 would be built for suitable to areas would be 18 decommissioned after use so even though road building 19 that would be allowed under the new rule may be thought 20 to have improved access to subsistence resources it 21 would be very short-term and not long-term access. So 22 that shouldn't be a primary case for saying that there 23 would be benefit to subsistence users rather than a 24 detriment. 25 26 Yes, Mr. Hernandez. 27 28 MR. HERNANDEZ: Right. And the 29 detriment that would come from the, you know, loss of 30 habitat, that would be a long standing impact with only 31 a very minor short-term benefit. 32 33 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. The 34 next item would be carbon accounting. The Council 35 would ask for a carbon budget for the Tongass National 36 Forest. Carbon capacity before industrial logging, 37 carbon capacity at present after industrial logging, 38 and then future projections should be included in that 39 type of an analysis. And then how carbon credits could 40 be used or come up as providing an economic value. 41 42 So my understanding is that we don't 43 feel that the analysis provided in the Draft EIS 44 addresses this and that analysis should be completed. 45 46 And kind of along the same long, carbon 47 sequestration. An overview or quantification of the 48 power that the Tongass National Forest provides in 49 order to sequester carbon, that would be needed in



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1 light of the October 2018 IPCC report, and the November 2 2018 NCA report. And this would be in line with 3 climate emergency amelioration. 4 5 The next one is the inadequacy of the 6 subsistence data and the presentation of it within the 7 Draft EIS overall. It was pointed out that much of the 8 information used for that analysis was old data and 9 that the presentation was not very thorough. The

10 appendix might include some good background data but 11 that's not discussed in the text, so when you look at 12 that effects analysis it's inadequate because they're 13 not using the more current science. 14 15 Also the subsistence effects analysis 16 should show that current subsistence use by community 17 should show current subsistence use by community, 18 including the levels of use and where those uses come 19 from in a mapped form so that we can look at how the 20 proposed action impacts specific resource and resource 21 areas -- subsistence resource and resource areas. 22 23 I don't remember talking about this 24 next one Mr. Schroeder, do you want to handle it. 25 26 MR. SCHROEDER: Sure, I could do the 27 next one because I -- I don't know what is meant by No. 28 9, so, unless someone else does. 29 30 But I felt and I thought I had some 31 discussion with other people about including depiction 32 of traditional clan and kwan territories, and I believe 33 that's needed to demonstrate effects and that the plan 34 poses an existential threat to tribes. So this is a 35 matter of presenting available data. This isn't 36 pulling stuff out of the air, we know where our clan 37 territories are, they've been mapped out, we know the 38 kwan territories. And to be thorough those should be 39 included. 40 41 On No. 9, I don't remember what we 42 meant by No. 9, so I scratched it, unless you have 43 something. 44 45 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 46 Schroeder. Do you remember, Mr. Hernandez. 47 48 MR. HERNANDEZ: I believe that refers 49 to the fact that, you know, the Council, in preparing



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1 our comments we -- you know we asked for a presentation 2 to ask a lot of questions in order to go through this 3 process and, you know, essentially we were given two 4 hours of time on a very extensive subject and that was 5 pretty inadequate for our purposes. We've also heard 6 the same complaints from, you know, the people 7 affected, that, you know, when they've gone to these 8 meetings they have a very short amount of time to try 9 and digest the information that they've been given and

10 come up with comments so along those lines. 11 12 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you for 13 that clarification, I do now remember that. 14 15 The next item is one of the most 16 effective ways to comment on a NEPA environmental 17 impact statement is to look at the purpose and need for 18 the action and then determine how each of the 19 alternatives fit back into that. So the action item -- 20 or Item No. 10 was to show that we looked at the three 21 key issues identified in the Draft EIS, which included 22 conserve roadless area characteristics -- this will 23 take me a second to pull up the second one since it's 24 not on here -- conserve terrestrial habitat was the 25 third one. These are the key issues that are 26 identified in the impact statement in the executive 27 summary on ES Page 2 and ES Page 3 so it was roadless 28 area -- how does each alternative address the roadless 29 area conservation, how does each one address support 30 local and regional socio-economic well-being, Alaska 31 Native culture, rural subsistence activities and 32 economic opportunities across multiple economic 33 sectors. And then the third key issue in the purpose 34 and need was to conserve terrestrial habitat, aquatic 35 habitat and biological diversity. 36 37 So when you identify that that is the 38 purpose and need for having this action, then you look 39 at how each of the alternatives fit into that action. 40 You shouldn't be having a preferred alternative that 41 doesn't exactly address your purpose and need for the 42 document. And so that is a way to make effective 43 comments during a public comment period and so the work 44 group felt it was included to have that -- it was 45 important to have that discussion in our public 46 comments back. 47 48 The next one is to identify that the 49 goal is to open up the Tongass for -- like putting this



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1 rulemaking process for us, the goal is to open up the 2 Tongass for development. For instance, more logging 3 into -- maybe not more logging into old growth areas, 4 but changing where old growth could be harvested, and 5 also building roads for utilities to connect -- like 6 this is the driving -- these are the driving factors 7 behind having this roadless rule, rulemaking process, 8 so building roads for utilities to connect communities 9 for infrastructure projects and for mines. But we want

10 to recognize that those things already have some 11 exemptions associated with them, and they're already 12 possible without actually having to change roadless 13 designations. And also including hatcheries and hydro 14 power. It was brought up in the work group meeting 15 that over 50 of these types of projects have been 16 allowed already in roadless -- under the current 2001 17 roadless rule and none have been rejected. So that is 18 why when we focus our comments on the logging, the old 19 growth logging, is that these other things are already 20 -- that it's obvious that his rulemaking process is 21 specifically to allow for more development and in terms 22 of harvesting old growth forests. 23 24 The next one is all action 25 alternatives, including the preferred alternative 26 result in a change to the suitable timber land. These 27 changes will allow greater logging of old growth timber 28 to take place and are significant land management 29 action and that also was identified in the fact that 30 under Alternatives 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6, would all result 31 in an administrative change to the definition of timber 32 suitability. Previously when you look at timber 33 suitability in the Tongass when the 2001 Roadless Rule 34 was in place, some old growth areas were not considered 35 suitable timber because they did not have access but if 36 you are changing or removing -- if you're exempting 37 lands then now you have suitable timber and I don't 38 think that those areas are well identified in the 39 mapping, or in any of the maps that were provided in 40 terms of the analysis. We don't see the maps with 41 respect to suitable timber, and, yet all of the 42 alternatives include that change in the definition of 43 suitable timber. So making sure we have that on the 44 conversation. 45 46 The next one is the Draft EIS includes 47 a formal rulemaking as well as a NEPA analysis 48 together, and joining these together has made for some 49 regulatory confusion. We're doing rulemaking which is



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1 under the Administrative Procedures Act, but we're also 2 developing a Draft Environmental Impact Statement, 3 which was under NEPA, and when you looked at the 4 presentation that was given to us two days ago, the 5 decision for the rulemaking process comes out of the 6 Department of Agriculture, while the decision for the 7 Draft Environmental Impact Statement comes from the 8 U.S. Forest Service, the lead agency, and that's 9 created, I think, some confusion or the way the tribal

10 cooperating agencies phrased it, a little bit of bait 11 and switch in the conversations that we've had with the 12 Department. And so assuring that we express our 13 concern that that confusion of having those two 14 processes be going hand in hand feels like when you ask 15 a question and they just kind of use whatever process 16 to answer that, that kind of suits them. 17 18 The next bullet point would be assuring 19 that we have a discussion about the climate change 20 effects on fish and wildlife as it relates to 21 subsistence. 22 23 The next one is the Draft EIS claims 24 that there are no effects from any of the alternatives 25 on logging volume and area because these levels are 26 established in the 2016 Forest Plan. Results of the 27 preferred alternative may increase harvest of old 28 growth stands that have high ecological value. The 29 preferred alternative would encourage further high 30 grading and destruction of the limited high value old 31 growth that remains, cumulative effects of past roading 32 and logging needs to be analyzed. Most of the high 33 volume old growth has been logged, thousands of miles 34 of roads have been constructed. So I think overall the 35 work group -- we might be discussing a couple of these 36 bullet points, felt like the analysis was not rigorous 37 in terms of looking at the cumulative effects and 38 looking at how it relates back to the land, the 2016 39 land management plan. And I also would point out that 40 in the record of decision for the Tongass Land 41 Management Plan, which was -- you know, that was the 42 last NEPA action, that was in -- for the actual land 43 management plan and piece of it, it specifically states 44 that harvest roadless areas is not necessary to meet 45 the purpose and need of the amendment to the Tongass 46 Land Management Plan. The selective alternative can be 47 implemented without proposing any new regulations while 48 still achieving transition objectives. 49



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1 So the Roadless Team, in their comments 2 to us, said that there was not going to be -- the 3 result of this action was not going to be a change in 4 the Tongass Land Management Plan, we have a record of 5 decision that says, you know, that the changes it 6 needed for transition and, yet, we're still in this 7 rulemaking process. 8 9 All right. The next one is The Tongass

10 National Forest economics. The Draft EIS needs to 11 report expenditures and returns from logging and road 12 building done to date as well as a projected economic 13 expenditures and return for anticipated increased 14 logging. I think that goes towards the lack of 15 economic analysis within the Draft EIS. 16 17 Another comment regarding the 2016 18 plan, the Council asked Chris French about whether a 19 plan amendment or revision was anticipated the change 20 would not be needed to increase road development and 21 logging, which are the main objective, and then Mr. 22 French was not definitive in his response and it might 23 relate back to the difference between rulemaking and 24 the NEPA process analysis. The Council anticipates the 25 plan amendment or revision to the 2016 Plan if 26 rulemaking -- if the -- any action alternative aside 27 from the no action alternative were to move forward. 28 And then we should -- because we feel that rulemaking 29 would actually then go back and change the 2016 Plan, 30 we wanted to state that the Council opposes revisiting 31 the plan and lists any environmental protections that 32 -- or that increases logging of the remaining old 33 growth stands in the Forest. 34 35 The next bullet point. We want to be 36 able to put this into discussion but we didn't have the 37 information available to us to actually have a good 38 discussion about it, and that was on environmental 39 justice. Rural and Native communities will bear most 40 of the effects of changing the roadless designation and 41 there's an executive order that oversees environmental 42 justice and so assuring that there was an analysis of 43 the effects to rural and Native communities, how that 44 -- whether or not that determination -- how that 45 determination was made or if it is being made. 46 47 The next bullet point is about the 48 alternatives. The Council has questions about the 49 roadless inventory. We have heard that the 2001



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1 Roadless Rule excluded about 350,000 acres of eligible 2 roadless land. These lands may have been excluded from 3 the 2001 inventory because these lands were approved 4 for logging under the Alaska Pulp Corporation, or 5 portions of Chichigof, Baranof, and Kuiu Islands. We 6 have heard that Forest Service acknowledged this 7 discrepancy in the roadless inventory in 2003. The 8 Council needs clarification on this point. If these 9 lands were excluded from the inventory, these lands

10 should be added to the roadless -- if they were 11 excluded in 2003 they should be added in this analysis 12 in the Draft EIS. 13 14 The Council would support Alternative 15 1, the no action alternative with the correction of the 16 roadless inventory. 17 18 Further, if there is some discrepancy 19 in inventory roadless, the question would be is this 20 reflective in suitable old growth of harvest under the 21 Draft EIS table, which is in Table ES2. That was one of 22 our questions that we couldn't get answered, so we'll 23 need to followup. 24 25 And then we probably need to follow up 26 on some of the technical references. So looking at 27 some of the tables, and maybe Mr. Schroeder, you can 28 explain this one a little bit better than I can. 29 30 MR. SCHROEDER: Well, this was all new 31 news to me, at least, and probably most of you, about 32 whether there was this discrepancy. So we need to run 33 that down and we did show a map last evening, and it 34 appeared to show the areas that were not included that 35 should be included. We got some more work to do on 36 that to make sure that we understand the issue better 37 rather than charge off inappropriately. 38 39 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. The 40 next bullet item is to assure support for the tribal 41 positions on the roadless, not just the tribal 42 cooperating agency, but all of the tribes in Southeast 43 Alaska. The tribes and Central Council Tlingit/Haida 44 President Peterson have now made some formal comments 45 so we have access to those letters that have been made 46 public and we should be able to refer to them and 47 incorporate them into our comments in our show of 48 support for them. We believe that ANILCA may be 49 considered to be "Indian Legislation" tribal comments



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1 related to ANILCA should then be accorded some special 2 consideration from us. The tribes uniformly did not 3 want Alternative 6, which was the no alternative 4 action, and, again, they'll have letters that include, 5 you know, continued government to government 6 consultation that will be coming out so we'll be able 7 to include that as well. 8 9 The next item is the Council heard

10 significant comments from individuals and tribes during 11 its fall meeting in Ketchikan and during its spring 12 meeting in Wrangell. Virtually all comments supported 13 maintaining the 2001 Roadless Rule as is. We heard no 14 support for changing the rule to support further 15 economic exploitation of the Tongass National Forest. 16 People testifying before the Council spoke of the 17 importance of maintaining the roadless rule as a 18 protection to their subsistence resources as needed to 19 protect stream flow required for helping salmon 20 returns, rearing and escapement as a protection for 21 cultural and sacred sites. They also highlighted how 22 commercial fishing, tourism, and guided sportfishing 23 are important economic drivers in the Southeast 24 economy. These uses will be adversely affected by 25 building roads in roadless areas and by further 26 destruction of remaining old growth timber stands. 27 28 The next item is about the restoration 29 and rehabilitation of the Tongass National Forest. 30 This was identified as a Southeast Regional Advisory 31 Council objective, and so decreasing roadless area 32 would be contrary to that goal, the goal of restoring 33 and rehabilitating the Tongass National Forest. 34 35 The next item actually refers to -- it 36 says that the Draft EIS refers to the 2016 Final 37 Environmental Impact Statement sections and directs the 38 reviewer to that comment. So essentially in the Draft 39 EIS it says, in some of its analysis it says, oh, go 40 look at the Final EIS for the 2016 Land Management 41 Plan, and that isn't actually doing an analysis in the 42 current, it's just saying go look at what we did before 43 and we didn't feel that that was adequate. It's not in 44 one place. 45 46 The next item that was added was that 47 in the rulemaking process we have been told that the 48 Chugach National Forest was not a part of this, that it 49 was only lifting the Alaska Roadless -- it was only



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1 creating an Alaska Roadless Rule and lifting 2001 2 Roadless Rule from the Tongass National Forest, 3 however, in the Draft EIS on Page 2-3, Alternatives 2, 4 3, 4 and 5 and 6 would include administrative 5 correction or modifications for inclusion to the Alaska 6 Roadless Rule to provide future boundary and 7 classification changes, and those would actually apply 8 to the Tongass and the Chugach National Forest, which 9 is actually on the top of Page 2-4. So the same

10 provision is included in Alternative 6, but only for -- 11 the Chugach Forest was also a part of that section, and 12 so it didn't -- it seemed like -- that only came out 13 when we got the presentation from the Roadless Team 14 when they were here before us, and while it's only a 15 small section it really made us go back and look at 16 alternatives that would be included under the proposed 17 action and all of these features that kind of carry 18 through about the Tongass Land Management Plan and we 19 felt like if there -- that there actually is going to 20 be some change even if it's an administrative change to 21 some definitions in the Chugach, however, you know, the 22 Southcentral Regional Advisory Council hasn't been 23 afforded an opportunity to weigh in on that. In fact 24 most, even tribes, within the Chugach National Forest, 25 you know, they protested when they first heard that 26 there was going to be an Alaska Roadless Rule and then 27 they were told specifically that the Chugach would not 28 be included but it is called out in the Draft 29 Environmental Impact Statement. So we felt we needed 30 to put a comment on our record that says that any 31 changes that include the Chugach National Forest 32 actually should go through the FACA committee that 33 represents that region as well. 34 35 I should have got water. 36 37 (Laughter) 38 39 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: The next one, 40 Mr. Schroeder, do you want to handle the next one, it 41 doesn't have the details that I'm remembering. 42 43 MR. SCHROEDER: We wanted to hear from 44 Council members about how the .810 hearings went in 45 their communities and so that would be really useful. 46 When you get back home or when you talk to people, and 47 probably a few lines would be great on that one. 48 49 And the next one, I don't know if that



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1 was -- that was a note item, I'm not sure we do 2 anything on a comment on Sealaska's changing position. 3 4 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank 5 you. Right, well, after we go through the rest of the 6 comments we'll probably come back to talk about how we 7 want to integrate what would have come out of the .810 8 subsistence hearings in the communities that are 9 happening now, this week and next week.

10 11 Item 26 is we wanted to put a 12 placeholder in there, Sealaska Corporation first 13 expressed that they wanted full exemption, however they 14 may be changing that stance based on what they're 15 hearing from Federally-recognized tribes in the region. 16 17 The Craig Community Association Tribal 18 President stated in their -- maybe Mr. Douville can 19 clarify but I believe this happened in their meeting, 20 that they wanted a Section .810 hearing face to face 21 with, all together, with the four tribes on Prince of 22 Wales Island, part of government to government, and 23 that has not been granted. Is that correct, Mr. 24 Douville. 25 26 MR. DOUVILLE: He said that he 27 requested that, he did not say if it was granted or 28 anything more than that. 29 30 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank 31 you. We might want to follow up to find out whether or 32 not it was granted, and if it was not, that we feel 33 that that government to government interaction and 34 request should be honored. 35 36 The next one is the amount of timber to 37 be harvest remains the same under alternatives, that's 38 what was presented to us. However, while the same 39 volume might be harvested, there's a change in 40 distribution of harvest, which is actually a major 41 change, or on the ground change. So we need to start 42 looking at individual areas. And this goes towards the 43 fact that the scale of the analysis is region-wide, and 44 may not actually be appropriate when you're looking at 45 how this rulemaking process impacts localized areas on 46 the ground. So we need to actually look at those 47 localized areas and provide comments specific about 48 that. And we also believe, dependent upon where 49 harvest would happen, volume actually could go up, and



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1 then high grading is what is left. 2 3 We also wanted to include something 4 about the further -- by going into areas, roadless 5 areas,building roads and taking what is now suitable 6 timber out of it just furthers the fragmentation of 7 what's remaining intact old growth. 8 9 And maybe Mr. Schroeder can clarify why

10 we said that supports all subsistence uses. 11 12 MR. SCHROEDER: Maybe..... 13 14 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Sorry, okay. So 15 the importance of how remaining intact old growth and 16 not doing the fragmentation that the rule would 17 potentially allow remaining intact old growth is needed 18 to support subsistence uses. 19 20 The next item is roads were built 21 around streams, subsequently changed stream channels 22 and the restoration on them was marginal. An example 23 was Sitkho Bay where they logged down into the stream. 24 And I think that kind of could be combined with the 25 next item, which is about that road maintenance and the 26 fact that across the Tongass, where we already have 27 roads we still have a number of inventoried red pipe 28 culverts that impact the fish ability to -- for fish 29 passage, as well as reduces habitat for it. So we 30 haven't even fixed the problems that are currently on 31 the landscape from past harvest activities and so 32 building new roads just adds that cumulative effect to 33 what is already there. And then the longer term, like 34 how you would address that in the future if you haven't 35 even had the money to clear up what was from the past. 36 37 I just alluded to it,so this might be 38 semi of a repeat, but the next item is about the Draft 39 EIS, the scale that it is currently at, and that maybe 40 a recommendation is rather than looking at impacts, so 41 you look at the Draft EIS, when you're looking at 42 impacts that the change, or even that full exemption 43 offers, is that each of the things when you look at 44 fish or when you look at wildlife, and the Draft EIS 45 shows that there are no significant difference between 46 alternatives, and that was kind of a red flag in terms 47 of, well, maybe the scale of the analysis was really 48 too large because on a regional scale it might not look 49 like there are impacts, changes between the



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1 alternatives and the impacts that they cause. One 2 suggestion would maybe even having -- they should have 3 done their impact analysis by Ranger district, so then 4 Ranger districts that don't have area where there's 5 suitable old growth timber, maybe between alternatives 6 those Ranger districts don't have changes, but then in 7 areas like the Prince of Wales Ranger District, that 8 when you look at the cumulative impacts and the new 9 building of roads on Forest lands would actually have

10 significant impacts when you combine those together. 11 12 So making sure that we really put in 13 some good language about how the scale of analysis is 14 probably not appropriate for a proposed action of this 15 magnitude. 16 17 The next one is also dealing with fish 18 and stream impacts. And Mr. Schroeder, can you tell me 19 how this one is a little bit different. 20 21 MR. SCHROEDER: I think we were saying 22 that stream buffers weren't enough to protect salmon 23 returns and perhaps Mr. Wright was talking about this 24 because we have a lot of streams that just go dry. And 25 so a stream buffer isn't going to help out a dry stream 26 if you've changed the drainage such that water's not 27 flowing. That's my recollection. 28 29 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. 30 31 Mr. Hernandez. 32 33 MR. HERNANDEZ: Yeah, right, we need 34 large kind of water shed level protections, not just 35 stream buffers. 36 37 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Mr. Wright. 38 39 MR. WRIGHT: Thank you, Madame Chair. 40 A few years back when we were dealing with Hanlon 41 versus Barton there was a study put out by some guy 42 from Auke Bay talking about the cutting of trees and 43 when you cut a tree down and there's nothing to protect 44 it and then you got this new growth coming up, when it 45 rains then all this new growth that is coming up is 46 sucking up the water and it's not being able to get to 47 the river. So the buffer strips that are being 48 suggested to protect our rivers are not adequate. You 49 know because if you got new growth coming up, they're



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1 sucking more water up than the old growth and so it's 2 just there's no water getting into the rivers. 3 4 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 5 Wright. 6 7 All right, and then the -- it's our 8 last bullet point from the working group, it doesn't 9 necessarily need to be the last bullet point from the

10 Council, in the Draft EIS -- in the presentation that 11 was given to us it showed that in the Draft EIS, that 12 there was going to be nine characteristics -- when you 13 look at -- sorry, I need to find it. 14 15 On Page 2-3 of the Draft EIS one of the 16 things that the proposed action does, whether it's 17 Alternative 2, 3, 4 or 5 is that it changes some of the 18 definitions, some of the previously defined 19 definitions. And one of the things that Chad VanOrmer 20 presented to us is that one of those changed 21 definitions would be roadless area characteristics and 22 he stated that the proposed change and definition to 23 roadless area characteristics was developed by the 24 Citizen Advisory Committee -- the State of Alaska 25 Citizen Advisory Committee. And so on Page 2-3 of the 26 Draft EIS it has nine characteristics that reflect that 27 change in those definitions and we had a student with 28 us last night working with the work group and I'm 29 hoping that you can come forward, and is it Cora -- 30 yeah -- Cora volunteered to actually look to see what 31 the difference between what is currently the nine 32 characteristics of roadless area as compared to what 33 the new definition would be under the rulemaking 34 process that was developed by the Citizen Advisory 35 Committee. And so we weren't sure if we wanted to 36 comments on this but because we didn't know what a 37 change in the definition actually was and so she looked 38 it up for us and she's going to present that to you now 39 so that we can have an idea of whether or not we want 40 to keep this in to our public comments. 41 42 So please proceed. 43 44 MS. DOW: Yeah, if DeAnna -- I sent it 45 to you, if you could pull it up on the screen, I don't 46 know if that's possible but..... 47 48 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: While DeAnna's 49 doing that, I'll just say I think we were quite



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1 resourceful by being able to have a working group and 2 have the students participate in that and then we put 3 them to work and they were happy to do it. 4 5 MR. HERNANDEZ: Research. 6 7 (Laughter) 8 9 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Right.

10 11 (Pause) 12 13 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Okay, we're just 14 taking a moment while we're waiting for the electronics 15 to boot up. 16 17 (Pause) 18 19 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: While DeAnna is 20 working on the electronics, I just want to let the 21 Council know that this was the result of a couple of 22 working group meetings where we started having a 23 discussion prior to this Council meeting, and then met 24 last night to put these bullet points forward. And I 25 think the working group recommendation is to hear from 26 the rest of the Council whether or not there are any 27 issues with the things that we've identified so far, 28 find out whether or not there are any other points that 29 we need to add to our public comments on the Draft 30 Environmental Impact Statement, and then as a matter of 31 going forward we need to recognize that we still have 32 some work to flesh out the details on many of the 33 points and the working group will continue to do so 34 after this meeting. And then also we have already 35 received -- we've already voted on and received 36 permission to have a special Council meeting between 37 now and the time that the public comments are due on 38 the Draft Environmental Impact Statement. So Chairman 39 Hernandez will call a special meeting sometime between 40 now and then but also allowing time for our final 41 comments to, you know, go through our correspondence 42 policy. At that special Council meeting we'll vote on 43 approving the final letter which we'll all see with 44 more details on it. 45 46 So that's the general direction that 47 this is going. 48 49 And we're still waiting for the



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1 electronics to be up so I don't know if Mr. Schroeder 2 has anything he wants to add about that to the process, 3 or Mr. Wright has a question. 4 5 Mr. Wright. 6 7 MR. WRIGHT: Thank you, Madame Chair. 8 I was looking at No. 8 and No. 18, they're not the same 9 wording but they're somewhat similar.

10 11 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Right. Okay. 12 And I do think that, you know, in reading through them 13 and thinking about them while I was reading through 14 them, I think there might be some -- we'll probably 15 merge things that are like and maybe, you know, merge 16 the topics but expand the discussion a little bit for 17 it. So I appreciate you pointing that out but I think 18 that that might be actually true of several of the 19 bullet points, that there might be some commonalities 20 so that we can put them in paragraph section, together. 21 22 MR. SCHROEDER: I've got something. 23 24 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Mr. Schroeder. 25 26 MR. SCHROEDER: Just I think in terms 27 of strategy and being most effective, I think keeping 28 things point by point makes sense because we may 29 possibly be -- this is a lot of work to write this 30 stuff up so I think that may make our job somewhat 31 feasible and then realize that when we submit comments, 32 since Forest Service has elected under the streamlined 33 process not to do administrative appeals, that what 34 happens next for action is someone will file suit 35 against whatever the decision is, when the decision 36 comes out, and by having things organized discreetly 37 that could help focus whatever the appeal may -- 38 whatever the characteristics of the appeal might be. 39 So it gives it focus there. 40 41 In other words, obviously our Section 42 .810 stuff is kind of like a separate point. 43 44 And so that's kind of the logic of 45 keeping things in this format somewhat. 46 47 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. All 48 right, it looks like we're ready with the Roadless Area 49 Characteristics Proposed Definition Changes, or



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1 comparison back to the 2001 Roadless Rule. 2 3 MS. DOW: So I highlighted the things 4 that were different, whether they were better or worse 5 in red, and everything that was the same in green. 6 7 MS. PHILLIPS: Please identify 8 yourself. 9

10 MS. DOW: My name is Cora Dow. I'm a 11 student from Sitka High School. 12 13 MS. PHILLIPS: Thank you. 14 15 MS. DOW: So if you scroll down, the 16 first difference of where there was something in the 17 original 2001 document that wasn't in the new one is in 18 red there. Inventoried roadless area is also conserve 19 (ph) Native biodiversity by serving as a 20 (indiscernible) against the spread of non-Native 21 invasive species. And in the new document it says 22 roadless areas support a diversity of plant and animal 23 communities including stands of old growth forest. 24 25 And so, yeah, if you scroll down to the 26 bottom, farther, down to where it says current and new, 27 yeah, those are the new characteristics. 28 29 So under diversity..... 30 31 MR. SCHROEDER: Could you tell us what 32 the red is from what the green is? 33 34 MS. DOW: Yeah, the red is the things 35 that don't appear, that are different in either 36 document. 37 38 MR. SCHROEDER: So red is gone and 39 green is added? 40 41 MS. DOW: Yes. 42 43 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: We have a laser 44 pointer that might help that you can show us on the 45 screen a little bit better. 46 47 MS. DOW: Okay. Yeah, so these are all 48 the same. This appears in the 2001 and this definitely 49 appears in the 2001 but this one does not appear and it



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1 seems to clarify it better. 2 3 In the 2001 it just says, public 4 drinking water sources; and then in this one it also 5 clarifies this. 6 7 Are there any questions on those two? 8 9 (No comments)

10 11 MS. DOW: Okay. And then this is all 12 the same basically. And then this one it adds stands 13 of old growth forests. So that doesn't appear in the 14 2001. 15 16 And then habitat. I think this is just 17 different wording. And then this is all the same. 18 19 MR. SCHROEDER: So the green refers to 20 (microphone not on) 21 22 MS. DOW: Yeah, that all appears in the 23 2001. 24 25 MR. SCHROEDER: That's in 2001, but not 26 in the EIS? 27 28 MS. DOW: This is in both of them. 29 30 MR. SCHROEDER: Okay. 31 32 MS. DOW: And this one is added in the 33 new one. 34 35 And then everything in these two is the 36 same. And this one is the same. And then this is just 37 different wording. The 2001 has a lot more specific 38 wording. If you want to scroll up we can read all of 39 it. To the second page. Under traditional cultural 40 properties and sacred sites, yeah. So that -- none of 41 that appears in the new thing. 42 43 MR. SCHROEDER: So all of that..... 44 45 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Can you clarify 46 that was taken out of the definition from the 2001 47 Roadless Rule? 48 49 MS. DOW: Yes. None of this in red



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1 appears in the new characteristic. 2 3 MR. SCHROEDER: So red is -- I'm still 4 a little unclear, red is out? 5 6 MS. DOW: Red is different, yes. 7 8 MR. SCHROEDER: So red is not there 9 anymore?

10 11 MS. DOW: Yes. 12 13 MR. SCHROEDER: Okay, got it. 14 15 MS. DOW: Or it's changed. So the new 16 characteristic, under cultural; is, roadless areas are 17 rich and traditional cultural properties and sacred 18 sites in Alaska indigenous peoples have been on 19 National Forest for more than 10,000 years and the 20 Forest have cultural significance. And that's changed 21 from the paragraph earlier. 22 23 Okay, the next one. Yeah, that's the 24 next one where I don't know if this is a -- I don't 25 think this change really matters but it just -- the 26 2001 gives specific examples like uncommon geological 27 formations, unique wetland complexes, unique social, 28 cultural or historical characteristics, ceremonial 29 sites, places for local events, areas prized for 30 collection of non-timber Forest products or exceptional 31 hunting and fishing opportunities. And then if you 32 scroll down all the way to the bottom it has -- it just 33 categorizes into three basic categories. Which are: 34 important source of subsistence resources, rich habitat 35 that supports multiple species of fish and supports 36 diverse economic opportunity. 37 38 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right. I 39 really appreciate you going through that exercise and 40 walking us through it. And since you've read it and 41 kind of highlighted it and probably have a little bit 42 of time to think about it, my summary would be that 43 some things probably -- the language was improved, but 44 I would be a little bit concerned about some of the 45 things that they took out, especially as they refer to 46 cultural resources and subsistence resources, and how 47 that was -- like the 2001 definition was probably 48 better than what the definition change would be under 49 the new rule. Did you get that same -- am I



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1 summarizing that correctly? 2 3 MS. DOW: Yeah. I think the 2001 4 characteristics generally gave more of a definition of 5 what they meant, and the new characteristics just 6 categorize everything basically. So I think the 7 definitions really clarify what they meant in the 2001 8 version. 9

10 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank 11 you. Mr. Schroeder. 12 13 MR. SCHROEDER: Well, the part that we 14 don't know and we need someone who kind of lived in 15 this realm is quite often in government documents you 16 have to realize that this is published in the Federal 17 Register and the words aren't just chosen because they 18 sound nice. What they do is they'll tend to refer to 19 other laws and other policies of the Federal government 20 and other protections. And so changing them is not 21 simply a matter of getting something that reads better 22 or is a shorter document, you make changes for a 23 reason, and we don't know what the reasons are because 24 they're not telling us. 25 26 But I think it's great that we have 27 this here and can include -- I'd suggest that we 28 include this with some commentary in our comments. 29 30 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 31 Schroeder. Ms. Phillips did you have follow up or did 32 he hit your point? 33 34 MS. PHILLIPS: Well, Robert did an 35 excellent job of it. You know it is the special areas, 36 roadless area conservation final rule is 36 CFR Part 37 294; I mean dated January 12th, 2001. I mean this is 38 an action and, yeah, it's kind of precedent setting 39 what they're trying to do with this new EIS. 40 Dangerously so. 41 42 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank 43 you. Thank you, Cora, for coming up and presenting 44 that back to us and taking the time to do some of our 45 leg work for us, so we appreciate it. 46 47 Ms. Phillips. 48 49 MS. PHILLIPS: Thank you, Chairman



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1 Needham. I would like to say that Title VIII, ANILCA, 2 is to be liberally construed. And so when we're 3 requesting a Section .810 process, because we believe 4 this roadless rule preferred Alternative 6 is a 5 programmatic land management change that will have 6 significant adverse effects on projects on the ground. 7 So anyways I just wanted to get that as part of our 8 letter. 9

10 Thank you. 11 12 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Great, thank 13 you. Mr. Leighton. 14 15 MR. LEIGHTON: Yeah, thank you, Madame 16 Chair. I know just recently, and they've been having 17 some symposium and some talk on young growth and second 18 growth, and there was a meeting here in Ketchikan and I 19 didn't find out what the results were there, and I 20 think it's important that maybe we could gather some 21 information. I think, I'm reasonably certain that 22 there was Forest Service personnel available during 23 this symposium and it happened out at the Landing, but 24 if there was something that came out of this meeting 25 there concerning second and young growth, I think it's 26 important that we have that information, what came out 27 of that meeting. Because, No. 1., if they are going 28 to, and the economy is swinging that way for young and 29 second growth, then why is the need for old growth, and 30 building of new roads. The roads exist, you revamp 31 them, go into the areas and get the young or second 32 growth, but, again, if it came out in that symposium 33 that the second growth is not that great, that should 34 be also known. 35 36 The reason why I'm saying that is on 37 our poles, our canoes, our carvings, we utilize old 38 growth, we can't utilize second growth, it won't hold 39 up to the weather conditions as well as old growth and 40 I think that's important that they understand that 41 because at a meeting there the Forest Service said, but 42 you'd have plenty of second growth, and that second 43 growth is getting big enough for you guys to go out and 44 utilize it, but the way it's been grown and thinned, it 45 grows faster and the rings are spread out farther, 46 which make it accessible to rot faster. 47 48 So I think that information that came 49 out of that symposium, we should find out, maybe, and



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1 get that into our letter. 2 3 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank 4 you, Mr. Leighton. That might be suitable when we talk 5 about how this relates back to the 2016 Forest 6 Management Plan since the transition is between old 7 growth and young growth is outlined for the Forest. So 8 if we can get the information and include it, or at 9 least take a look at it, I can see having comments

10 about it, but also keep in mind that we only have 11 probably until the end of this month to get all of our 12 comments prepared into a format that can be approved by 13 this body via special meeting and then be approved to 14 be sent before December 17th. So I think we can make 15 an attempt but we're only going to be able to work with 16 the information that we have by the time those public 17 comments on the Draft Environmental Impact Statement 18 are due. 19 20 I think I'm going to add, now that I 21 read through all of the bullet points, I did kind of 22 touch on it a little bit but -- I tried to touch on it 23 when we talked about scale but when you look at the 24 analysis, and we tried to do this last night, as a 25 working group, to look at the mapping and what it meant 26 for specific areas, and how the preferred alternative 27 versus the no action alternative might impact areas 28 that are important to communities for subsistence 29 resources, we didn't put a list together of what those 30 could be. But just being able to look at maps in a 31 little bit of a finer detail to understand how the 32 change in the roadless rule would lead to future 33 actions for on the ground impacts would be good to know 34 now, especially if some of those areas warranted the 35 protections and considerations because it's important 36 to the local communities, and I think that, you know, 37 we hope to go through mapping exercise as we dig into 38 some of these details a little bit more, but I would 39 encourage the Council to -- if there's places now -- I 40 know that Mr. Wright was talking about some places, but 41 some actual areas, specific areas that we want to name 42 in our comments, we should probably talk about that. 43 Because I don't live in your community so I don't know 44 if there's specific areas that you want to call 45 attention to that are important to you. 46 47 And at the same time while you're 48 thinking about that, I would invite Council members, 49 are there any other topics that need to go into our



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1 comments that weren't really bullated in the bullet 2 list. Because if we don't talk about them now before 3 we adjourn this meeting then the working group won't be 4 able to put them into our final comments for the Draft 5 EIS. So we need to talk about it and put it on the 6 record here before we leave. We could only add details 7 -- I guess I would say with the exception that we are 8 going to leave it open to adding information that come 9 out of the specific section, .810 subsistence hearings

10 that are being done. We know right now that we still 11 have meetings this week and next week and we don't know 12 what the results of those meetings are but we want to 13 put a placeholder in our comments for the Draft EIS 14 that allows us to provide a summary for how those 15 worked in each community, if important points were 16 brought forward, we want to be able to leave a 17 placeholder in this for that, and we can't identify 18 that now because those hearings haven't happened. 19 20 But are there any other issues that 21 people want to add in. 22 23 Mr. Douville 24 25 MR. DOUVILLE: You had a question for 26 me earlier and I think I can answer it. 27 28 The Craig Tribal President asked for a 29 face to face .810 hearing, the response that he got was 30 that they would make it happen. 31 32 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: That's good 33 news, thank you for that followup. Also, DeAnna passed 34 me something that Mr. Chris French got back to us and 35 sent an email that could clarify some of our questions 36 for the record, please. 37 38 MS. PERRY: Thank you, Madame Chair. 39 This email was received from Chris French at 2:29 40 today. It just says Hi DeAnna, I want to take this 41 opportunity to clarify the testimony myself and Chad 42 VanOrmer provided to the Southeast Subsistence RAC on 43 November 5th, 2019. In our dialogue with the committee 44 we were unable to confirm whether a determination of 45 significance will be made in the environmental impact 46 statement being developed for the Alaska Roadless 47 rulemaking project. I have talked with Regional 48 Forester Dave Schmid and confirmed that, in fact, there 49 will be a determination of significance made for



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1 subsistence resources in the EIS and record of 2 decision. I also want to correct, for the record, that 3 in the development of the 2016 Tongass Forest Plan 4 there was a determination of significance made for 5 subsistence resources. Regional Forester Dave Schmid 6 will followup more formally with a letter to the RAC 7 further documenting our intention for the rulemaking 8 project. I apologize for any confusion this may have 9 caused and look forward to our continued work together.

10 And, again, that's from Chris French, Deputy Chief of 11 National Forest System, USDA Forest Service. 12 13 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Great, thank 14 you. Any other Council members like to add any bullet 15 points to our comments on the Draft EIS. 16 17 Mr. Schroeder. 18 19 MR. SCHROEDER: I'd just say that's 20 really good that Mr. French responded. He wouldn't be 21 saying that at all if we didn't do the catch, and 22 however many hundreds or thousands of people who show 23 up in Southeast Alaska hearings and who may look at the 24 document do not have that information because that is 25 not what's in the document. So I'd just beware with 26 things like that. I mean isn't it kind of weird that 27 you're doing a major plan via email message. 28 29 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. Any 30 other Council members have comments. 31 32 Mr. Wright. 33 34 MR. WRIGHT: Thank you, Madame Chair. 35 You know I was thinking about it awhile ago, you know, 36 we got people going into the smaller communities to get 37 testimony from the communities, you know, and when the 38 Forest Service was talking to us here I was thinking, 39 what are they talking about, you know, it's kind of 40 like, you know, if I worked that job then I'd be saying 41 oh yeah, uh-huh, yeah, okay, you know, but for a lay 42 person like me and a lay person like the people that 43 they're talking to in the communities, lay people that 44 they're talking to in the communities, it's probably 45 worse. I mean even I, you know, I know just very, very 46 little about it, I can't come up with questions because 47 I don't know what to ask. It's kind of like a person 48 that's working on a farm or anything, they can't ask me 49 how I do my fishing, you know, so it's kind of the same



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1 thing, people are wondering what am I supposed to ask, 2 what am I going to talk -- you know, when I go home, 3 they're going to come to us on the 14th and I'm kind of 4 worried about how many people are going to really show 5 up at that meeting because what is the roadless thing 6 and how do we, you know, if this is going to be coming 7 up we should at least -- there should have been some 8 kind of communication, okay, a preliminary hearing for 9 the community to say, okay, this is coming up, this is

10 what it's about, and you know kind of like what do you 11 think, give us the easy terms. We're going to build 12 roads in the Tongass, you know, so then maybe some of 13 the people can ask, for what, we're doing fine without 14 it. 15 16 You know, so that's one of the things I 17 was wondering about, you know, I was wondering about 18 how the community people that are getting this 19 information, they have no idea what we're talking 20 about. I mean like I said, I was listening to these 21 guys and they were talking some stuff and I was like, 22 what, what, you know, but I couldn't figure out what to 23 ask. 24 25 Thank you. 26 27 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 28 Wright. I think that's a good point, and we should 29 probably add it into the letter about how outreach is 30 done and I think we could make a case that the 31 expedited timeline that this whole thing has been on 32 hasn't allowed for even individuals, such as ourselves, 33 to do outreach and education in our own communities to 34 help with that process, we just wouldn't have had that 35 time, and I think we can link that discussion together. 36 We talked about it at our last meeting, or when the 37 Roadless Team has been before us before, that -- and I 38 don't think it made it in our bullet point, but that 39 expedited timeline really does not benefit subsistence 40 users because they don't -- we don't -- there's just no 41 time to actually absorb the information, understand it, 42 and be able to comment back on it and still do what we 43 do for a living. 44 45 So thank you for bringing that point 46 forward. 47 48 Mr. Yeager, did you have something you 49 wanted to add.



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1 MR. YEAGER: Thank you, Madame Chair. 2 I think that the committee work is spot on and I 3 appreciate all the effort put in there and all the 4 bullet points I think are great. I don't have anything 5 really to add to that. 6 7 But I do want to share that I feel kind 8 of, you know, like my hands are tied behind my back 9 here, I mean half of our Council hasn't had a chance to

10 go to their communities yet and be there, some of us 11 have listened, like last night, but yet I feel like to 12 be efficient in this process we need to be able to go 13 back and talk to people, but, yet we're under such a 14 time constraint here to put out a good document, which 15 I think this is the recipe for a good document but I am 16 just very frustrated with the fact that there should be 17 a method and time to be able to go back and talk to the 18 communities and go, hey, what'd you learn or what do 19 you think about this, and each community is different. 20 There are different situations in each community. And 21 so I feel that I would be, you know, not doing my job 22 in putting something forward without having -- without 23 being able to have that discussion. 24 25 So I think you get my drift. 26 27 Thank you. 28 29 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 30 Yeager. 31 32 Mr. Hernandez. 33 34 MR. HERNANDEZ: Yeah. In response to 35 what Mr. Wright was saying, you know, I hope, Frank, 36 that when these people go into our communities, that 37 they -- you know, that people will take the opportunity 38 to go and tell these Federal officials, you know, what 39 they do know best, which is, you know, how important 40 the landscape is to them in their area. Even though 41 those people may be hearing, you know, from the people 42 presenting on these documents the line that we kind of 43 got that, oh, this isn't going to change anything, we 44 have this Forest Plan, you know, that's what they're 45 going to hear at these meetings. That's what we were 46 hearing. And that is the bait and switch that is 47 referred to by the tribes, what they're so opposed to. 48 I think we're, you know, us, who are pretty familiar 49 with the process are kind of realizing that. A lot of



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1 the cooperating agency folks who are pretty technically 2 minded, I think they picked up on that. But, you know, 3 when these things are presented out in our villages, I 4 don't think our neighbors are going to pick up on that 5 all that well and we're not going to be there to inform 6 them in most cases, but it's still important that they 7 -- and I hope they do -- talk about what they do know 8 about because it will all become relevant, you know, at 9 some point when these are -- when this is appealed in

10 some way. 11 12 So that's my hope. We'll see how it 13 turns out, I guess. 14 15 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank 16 you, Mr. Hernandez. 17 18 Mr. Bemis. 19 20 MR. BEMIS: Yeah, thank you, Madame 21 Chair. 22 23 As we sort through this and we go into 24 divisions and different tribes and different areas, 25 it's kind of like we're all being divided because 26 everybody has a different scenario or meaning or 27 definition of land use and some people had timber and 28 some people didn't. When they're going to each one of 29 these communities it's kind of hard to get the other 30 communities to align with that community when you might 31 have a totally different issue, where somebody says my 32 timber's gone, I don't want no part of any more timber 33 cutting and then somebody says, well, we're in the 34 process of cutting, like I am at home, they are cutting 35 some of their second growth timber for a little bit, 36 now when you're trying to say we're not going to use 37 any of the -- and of course this is private land, but 38 the same sense, each individual has a separate entity 39 and I am thinking that's how they keep this thing to 40 where you're confused, because you can't get everybody 41 on one path this quick, to all agree to something 42 unless we're in communication with each other, and 43 agree to something. 44 45 So I'm thinking some how we need to get 46 home and inform -- my hometown already had a meeting so 47 I'm not going to be able to weigh in on, other than to 48 go in and see what the tribe's doing or the Native 49 Corporation or the city, or any of the local entities



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1 that might be weighing in on this. I'm thinking that 2 -- I wonder what Sealaska, being they're the umbrella 3 of everything, where they sit with this and what they 4 should suggest to the communities, beings that they're 5 the ones that are kind of the over guard of all these 6 areas. 7 8 So I hate to see the division, but at 9 the same time, with the short amount of time we got, we

10 really don't have a rule of the road, so to speak, to 11 all share. 12 13 My concern, thank you. 14 15 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 16 Bemis. 17 18 Any other Council member comments. 19 20 Mr. Douville. 21 22 MR. DOUVILLE: Thank you, Madame Chair. 23 I can answer one of your questions. Publicly it 24 appeared that Sealaska supported the removal of the 25 Roadless Rule completely. And I had the opportunity to 26 sit in a meeting with the city of Craig and Sealaska 27 and the city of Klawock, and I asked them that specific 28 question and the response at that time was, no, we 29 don't support the overturning completely, but a 30 modified version. 31 32 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, other 33 Council comments. 34 35 Mr. Winrod. 36 37 MR. WINROD: Thank you, Madame Chair. 38 I just wanted to comment on bullet point No. 32 (ph), 39 just as we develop it, maybe one thing that we could 40 add about those stream buffers, I'm not knocking them 41 completely, I know that they've helped some in some of 42 the cuts that have been done but I've seen a lot of 43 those over time, they just blow over and it turns into 44 just a tangled mess into the creek and that's kind of 45 what it really ends up being in reality over time. 46 47 Thank you. 48 49 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank



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1 you. 2 3 I think I want to add something in 4 about the cumulative effects. We touched on the fact 5 that we did not think that the cumulative effects 6 section was adequate. Just for those of you that don't 7 know or quite understand what a cumulative effects 8 analysis is, cumulative effects are defined by the 9 Council on Environmental Quality Regulations as: "The

10 impact on the environment which results from the 11 incremental impact of an action when added to other 12 past, present, and reasonably foreseeable future 13 actions regardless of what agency, Federal or non- 14 Federal or person undertakes such actions." 15 16 The timeframe in this analysis that was 17 identified for cumulative effects encompasses past and 18 future activities. Past activities include timber 19 harvest and other activities that date back over 70 20 years, while future activities consider timber harvest 21 up to 100 years in the future. 22 23 MR. SCHROEDER: What's the page 24 reference? 25 26 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: The page 27 reference is in Appendix B, Pages B1 and B2. 28 29 So one point that I would point out is, 30 again, with the bait and switch is that people, in 31 questions that we've asked, they say well this is 32 rulemaking and it's not on the ground impacts and so 33 that's probably why we don't we have a very rigorous 34 cumulative effects analysis, but in reading what the 35 Council on Environmental Quality actually says, in my 36 opinion, you can't move into those other actions 37 currently so by lifting the 2001 Roadless Rule that's 38 cumulative to whatever subsequent actions happen within 39 the next 100 years. That would be my interpretation of 40 it. 41 42 So given that I want to also point out 43 that in the section it does talk about the rulemaking 44 process and then a couple of other actions that it 45 looked at, with rulemaking and then what might be 46 identified as future actions, but nowhere do I see the 47 Prince of Wales Landscape Level Assessment work and on 48 the ground activities that came out of that, or 49 recommendations for timber harvest that came out of



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1 that. I also don't see an analysis of the Central 2 Tongass Landscape Level Assessment which is sort of 3 presently being analyzed. And it doesn't look like 4 land exchanges with other non-Federal entities, so any 5 recent Sealaska land exchanges, any future potential 6 selections for lands if landless tribes are able to do 7 it. And so I think that that should be pointed out in 8 terms of providing some beef about the inadequacy of 9 this cumulative effects and sort of their

10 interpretation of what it is and what it means and just 11 the cumulative effect of having people like us having 12 to sit down and go through these things every time we 13 want to change something, right, I mean just in 2016 we 14 changed the land management plan, POWLLA just finished 15 up and now here we are again looking at draft 16 environmental impact statements. 17 18 So I wanted to add that. 19 20 Anybody else, I thought I saw a hand. 21 22 Mr. Yeager. 23 24 MR. YEAGER: Thank you. I agree with 25 you 100 percent on that addition there. I was trying 26 to allude to that when we were given the presentation. 27 If any of those other projects, if you will, were taken 28 into consideration and I think the answer was very 29 minimal, if any. But in the Wrangell area, 30 specifically, you take the compound effect of all three 31 of those, what the possibilities are if they go 32 through, they affect my community significantly and so 33 I think that other communities should look at that as 34 well. But I very much support that addition. 35 36 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 37 Yeager. 38 39 Anyone else. 40 41 (No comments) 42 43 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right. I 44 feel like we're winding down on the Alaska Roadless 45 Rule topic. I'll ask Ms. Perry again whether or not we 46 need to take any action, I've kind of forgot, I asked 47 you before during the break, and I know that we have -- 48 you know, we've identified that the work group will add 49 -- work to add some detail to the bullet point topics



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1 and that we already have approved that we will have a 2 special session to come together to vote on the final 3 submission of comments. Is there any business item- 4 else we need to do to close this subject out. 5 6 MS. PERRY: I don't think so, Madame 7 Chair. We are clear of the Council's intent. We've 8 gone through some of the verbiage. The Council 9 understands that we will build upon that -- or the

10 working group will build upon that by teleconference. 11 And then we had been approved for a special meeting for 12 the entire Council by teleconference back in the 13 summer, so we're just going to be building on that. So 14 to my knowledge, the special meeting has already been 15 approved and there would be no formal action that we 16 need to take at this time. 17 18 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank 19 you. And can you just, for the record, explain how you 20 foresee, once we have the Council special meeting to 21 vote on it, how soon we can expect those comments to be 22 submitted and will we be able to make it in by the 23 actual deadline of December 17th. 24 25 MS. PERRY: Thank you, Madame Chair. I 26 am hoping that the product that we have by the time the 27 working group gets together and we finalize those 28 comments, we have a pretty good thorough product to 29 give to the Council so that minimal edits will be 30 needed after that meeting, and then at that point I 31 will make those edits and submit them as immediately as 32 I can to Office of Subsistence Management per the 33 correspondence policy. It does go through a review 34 process at that time. I have given them a head's up 35 that this is coming and the deadline of December 17th, 36 that it must be submitted on December 17th and have 37 asked them to expedite review of that accordingly. 38 39 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. Mr. 40 Hernandez. 41 42 MR. HERNANDEZ: Thank you, Ms. Needham. 43 I'm going to question whether or not this falls under 44 the correspondence policy. I don't view this as a 45 letter to the Board. I view this as, you know, part of 46 our ANILCA responsibilities under the charter to 47 communicate directly to the agencies on a very 48 important land use policy issue and to me that is not 49 correspondence. So I'm going to object to having this



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1 subjected to the correspondence policy and, whatever we 2 come together in the way of comments, I think should be 3 forwarded immediately with just a cursory check on -- 4 yeah, maybe even -- I don't even know if it needs to be 5 checked up on really, just submitted and forwarded 6 basically. 7 8 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 9 Hernandez.

10 11 Mr. Schroeder. 12 13 MR. SCHROEDER: Madame Chair. Don, as 14 you know I basically agree with you on this. I think 15 that it's not at all in the interest of our Council to 16 stick it in the eye of the Federal Subsistence Board or 17 OSM. These are our partners. That said, by that I 18 mean I really don't want OSM to be blind-sided by our 19 actions. We are part of the program. That said, my 20 suggestion would be that we allow two day review 21 information period, but that our comments, after 22 they're worked on by the group and after DeAnna clears 23 up possible mistakes, that they go out. 24 25 So I'm agreeing with you but I believe 26 that a courtesy review would be appropriate. It's more 27 like a courtesy information, specifically so that our 28 program, OSM, knows what we're up to. 29 30 MR. HERNANDEZ: Yeah, I think I would 31 agree with that. That would be our intent. To submit 32 these, you know, to OSM, they obviously need to know 33 what our Council business is but we don't expect them 34 to do edits or -- like you say, it's just essentially a 35 notification that, you know, they probably have to do 36 the forwarding, you know, whatever the procedure is 37 but, right, we're not submitting to them for edits, 38 we're just submitting them to OSM for them to be aware 39 of what our business is. So, I don't know, seems like 40 that would be my intent. 41 42 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Ms. Perry. 43 44 MS. PERRY: Madame Chair. Just for the 45 record I'd like to bring the Council's attention to the 46 correspondence on Page 419 and read into the record 47 under No. 6. It does say Councils may submit written 48 comments requested by Federal land management agencies 49 under ANILCA .810 or requested by Regional Subsistence



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1 Resource Commissions under .808 directly to the 2 requesting agency. I have questioned parts of the 3 correspondence policy in the past and it's my 4 understanding is the interpretation is a little 5 liberal. So I just wanted to read that into the 6 record. 7 8 Thank you, Madame Chair. 9

10 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. Mr. 11 Hernandez. 12 13 MR. HERNANDEZ: Yeah, I think that kind 14 of is exactly what we're doing. And I'm glad to see it 15 is in the correspondence policy so I think that 16 satisfies our concerns. Go ahead, Bob. 17 18 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Mr. Schroeder. 19 20 MR. SCHROEDER: Since this has been a 21 continued issue for this Council in making comments on 22 land management plans, as we are required under our 23 charter and under ANILCA, I really don't want our 24 illustrious Chairman to be hung out there, so I think 25 it would be appropriate for us to have a resolution to 26 that effect to say what we plan to do, if our Chairman 27 believes that's appropriate. 28 29 MR. HERNANDEZ: Thank you, Bob. But 30 from what DeAnna just read in the correspondence 31 policy, I think it's actually fairly clear that this is 32 within our responsibilities so we'll just go with that, 33 I think. 34 35 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right. Ms. 36 Phillips, and then it looks like Mr. Whitford might 37 have a point of clarification. 38 39 MS. PHILLIPS: Go ahead. 40 41 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right. Ms. 42 Phillips is referring to you Mr. Whitford. 43 44 MR. WHITFORD: Madame Chair. Council 45 members. I just got off the phone with Tom Doolittle 46 to defer this question to him and based on his 47 interpretation of the correspondence policy, the 48 correspondence should still go through OSM, but they 49 can do it in an expedited manner, but it's still -- I



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1 guess his point was that the Regional Advisory Council 2 doesn't act as an independent body outside of the 3 Federal Subsistence Board, they're acting through the 4 Federal Subsistence Board. 5 6 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Ms. Phillips and 7 then Mr. Hernandez. 8 9 MS. PHILLIPS: No, go ahead.

10 11 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, Mr. 12 Hernandez. 13 14 MR. HERNANDEZ: I guess our only 15 question would be, you know, what does he mean by 16 expedited. Does he want to review and edit or is he 17 willing to just essentially be notified and pass it on? 18 19 MR. WHITFORD: I think it would be a 20 matter of just being -- I'm probably not going to use 21 the right terms but going through the documentation 22 through OSM, they do have a process there so I think it 23 would be a real quick review and it wouldn't be a 24 typical correspondence review through OSM because we do 25 know that -- or OSM knows that there is a timeline and 26 OSM would fully meet that timeline. 27 28 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Ms. Phillips. 29 30 MS. PHILLIPS: Thank you. Unrelated to 31 that. So over the years, I know that Federal agency 32 Staff has received ANILCA training, and, we, as a RAC, 33 you know, have started at ground zero to get what we 34 know as ANILCA into this, you know, to our RAC process, 35 so I'm thinking that our previous -- the RAC's previous 36 correspondence that went through the Federal 37 Subsistence Board and then on to the Secretary was like 38 a training session for them, not really knowing -- I 39 mean Secretary Perdue, how long has he been in there, 40 did he know about ANILCA before he became the Secretary 41 and all of a sudden they're making these changes -- 42 proposing to make these changes to the roadless rule 43 and then it gets brought to his attention that, hey, 44 there is this little provision called ANILCA, Title 45 VIII that you got to deal with, did he know about it, I 46 think they're getting some training as they go along 47 and being more responsive, especially since they have 48 to -- since ANILCA is liberally construed, so anyways I 49 think we could say something about that, maybe, in some



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1 way. 2 3 Thank you. 4 5 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank 6 you, Ms. Phillips. 7 8 I don't know that we -- do we need 9 resolution on this, I mean I feel like the working

10 group still has work to do, we still have a Council 11 meeting to vote on our action, we've stated our opinion 12 for the record, we've gotten clarification from OSM on 13 what their expectation is, we just need to move forward 14 from this subject; is that correct? 15 16 Does anybody else have anything to add. 17 18 Mr. Schroeder. 19 20 MR. SCHROEDER: Well, we have two 21 competing versions here. We have something which is 22 clearly stated in the correspondence policy and then we 23 have the report of a phone call, and I don't quite get 24 it. Like if we follow the correspondence policy that's 25 in the book, we send our stuff off and my suggestion 26 was courtesy information or a courtesy review, which is 27 very different from someone reading through and 28 deciding that they don't like what Patty wrote in there 29 that the Council approved, or what I put in there that 30 the Council approved, and I really don't think it's 31 appropriate to have this sort of document edited and 32 approved by OSM. That's just not what ANILCA is 33 saying. 34 35 So we have a difference of opinion here 36 based on the one side, the law, and the correspondence 37 policy and on the other side what, frankly amounts to, 38 and saying this in the most friendly way possible, 39 administrative overreach on the part of OSM. 40 41 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank 42 you, Mr. Schroeder. 43 44 Mr. Hernandez. 45 46 MR. HERNANDEZ: Thank you, Ms. Needham. 47 I don't think we're going to resolve that here this 48 afternoon. I guess I would point out that we do have a 49 -- we are going to schedule a special meeting to



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1 finalize all this. I expect by the time that that 2 special meeting happens we can probably resolve some of 3 these issues. If we don't get it resolved to our 4 satisfaction at that point then we'll have to take some 5 action before we submit, but that would be my 6 recommendation. 7 8 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 9 Hernandez. I think that might be our only course of

10 action really, given that our meeting time is coming to 11 a close and we still have some business that we need to 12 do. And obviously we are not going to have an answer 13 from -- nobody in the room right now can basically make 14 a decision for it to go otherwise, so I recommend that 15 we take it up at the special Council meeting if it 16 hasn't been resolved between now and then to our favor 17 of what we're recommending out of this. 18 19 Ms. Phillips. 20 21 MS. PHILLIPS: Chairman Needham, can we 22 ask legal opinion about it? Could we ask for a legal 23 opinion? 24 25 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Are you 26 expecting that legal opinion to be ready today or by 27 the next Council meeting, I think we can ask. 28 29 MS. PHILLIPS: Quickly, but not today. 30 31 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you. I 32 think we can ask and I think we can task our 33 coordinator with following up on that request. 34 35 Mr. Hernandez. 36 37 MR. HERNANDEZ: Before we close out 38 this topic, I have just one question for DeAnna, how 39 long will it take to get the transcripts of this 40 meeting and what we're discussing here, that would be 41 -- we're probably going to need those when we get all 42 this written up. Obviously we're going to have to 43 refer back to what was said here, how long will that 44 take? 45 46 MS. PERRY: I think the last few 47 meetings it's between three and four weeks before 48 they're able to be reviewed, and to my knowledge that's 49 probably going to be the same. Again, we're in the



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1 middle of a meeting cycle and the court reporters have 2 all of the meetings to transcribe kind of all at the 3 same time. 4 5 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Ms. 6 Perry. I'm wondering if you would also be willing to 7 make a request of the court reporter that maybe the 8 transcript from today's discussion on this particular 9 topic be sort of done a little sooner, rather than the

10 full set of a transcript, at least in draft form so 11 that we have some of that -- it doesn't work like that? 12 13 MS. PERRY: Yes, Madame Chair, I can 14 make that request. 15 16 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: All right, thank 17 you. 18 19 All right, is that it for the Alaska 20 Roadless Rule topic for this meeting -- we are going to 21 take a quick five minute break. Just to remind you to 22 come back in five minutes, it's just so that we can 23 kind of transition over the Chairman and go over what 24 we need to do for agency reports to finish out our 25 agenda and we have the action item of picking meeting 26 dates for the future. So we still have some business 27 that we got to get done, so five minutes. 28 29 (Off record) 30 31 (On record) 32 33 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay, everybody, 34 let's get back to business here. It'd be really nice 35 to wrap this meeting up before 5:00 o'clock. We got 36 people who have to head on the jet this evening so 37 we've only got a little bit more business to do. And 38 we'll start out with a summary of the special actions 39 that have occurred here since our last meeting from 40 Terry Suminski. 41 42 MR. SUMINSKI: Good afternoon, Mr. 43 Chair. Council. Terry Suminski with the Forest 44 Service. 45 46 I distributed a one-pager, front and 47 back with all the special actions that were taken this 48 year just to give you a summary. If we've done our job 49 right it's no surprise to anybody and I'm here to



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1 answer any questions. I won't go through and read each 2 one, but if you have any specific questions on any of 3 the special actions we took this year I'd be happy to 4 talk about it. 5 6 Thank you. 7 8 ACTING CHAIR NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. 9 Suminski. Do any Council members have any questions.

10 11 Mr. Schroeder. 12 13 MR. SCHROEDER: Terry, I'm trying to 14 remember what the special action procedure is for 15 contacting the SERAC Chair. Could you fill me in on 16 that and let me know if that's happened appropriately. 17 18 MR. SUMINSKI: Through the Chair. Mr. 19 Schroeder. The procedure we -- as soon as we have an 20 idea that there's a potential to take a special action, 21 the Chair is one of the first people that we contact as 22 well as the Department of Fish and Game and applicable 23 tribes. I'm pretty sure that's happened, you could 24 maybe confirm that with the Chair. 25 26 Thank you. 27 28 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yes, it did, thank 29 you, Terry. Any other questions from the Council. 30 31 (No comments) 32 33 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Thanks for 34 that Terry. Next up is agency reports and under agency 35 reports there are also reports from tribal governments 36 and Mr. Gallegos was here earlier and gave a report. I 37 don't know if there's any other Native agency reports. 38 Anybody on the telephone. 39 40 (No comments) 41 42 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. I think 43 we've covered that topic. So next up is reports on 44 what's going on with the Central Tongass planning 45 effort and the Prince of Wales update, South Ravelligio 46 update, possibly -- I think we've already heard about 47 the eulachon monitoring plans but, yeah, Central 48 Tongass and Prince of Wales Landscape Level Analysis 49 reports and South Ravelligio report coming up.



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1 So go ahead and introduce yourselves. 2 3 MS. HOWLE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 4 Council members. My name is Susan Howle. I am the 5 District Ranger on the Ketchikan Misty Fjords Ranger 6 District. I can speak a little bit to Central Tongass, 7 that's on Wrangell, Petersburg Ranger Districts. 8 9 The Draft Environmental Impact

10 Statement has been out for, I'm not sure when it went 11 out but they're in their addressing comment stage and 12 so there'll be a final EIS. I don't have the schedule 13 in front of me but that's kind of where they are on the 14 timeline right now between draft and final. 15 16 And for just to share with the Council, 17 I mentioned South Ravelligio on Tuesday night when we 18 met briefly, this is an important project for a number 19 of reasons. This project will -- we will have a 20 cooperating agency in this project, Ketchikan Indian 21 Community. We actually have a draft MOU ready to 22 submit to them next week to be a cooperating agency. 23 They will be providing special expertise in our 24 environmental impact statement. 25 26 The South Ravelligio Integrated 27 Resource Project is the title and this is an area in 28 the Shelter Cove and Shoal Cove areas on Ravelligio and 29 it's roughly about 56,000 acres of -- the project area 30 size. And I think I mentioned the other night, after 31 we went out with our scoping, we did look at the 32 comments and we came up with a few issues that we're 33 going to be addressing in our EIS, one of those issues 34 happens to be subsistence use, potential impacts to 35 subsistence use, so we'll be developing an alternative 36 to address that. So we will be going out with a Draft 37 EIS sometime in the spring. 38 39 And, yeah, we're really excited to be 40 working with the Ketchikan Indian Community. This is 41 something we've never done before and they've never 42 done so it's a great experience for both of us to learn 43 and continue building our relationship. 44 45 Jon, can you think of anything else 46 that we need to report on -- Jon Hide is our ecosystems 47 Staff officer. 48 49 MR. HIDE: On South Ravelligio?



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1 MS. HOWLE: Yeah, subsistence related. 2 3 MR. HIDE: I think that covers it for 4 the time being. 5 6 MS. HOWLE: Okay. Yeah, this is also 7 going to be a timber sale but it's integrated so it's 8 timber, watershed enhancement as well as recreation 9 development in this area.

10 11 Yes. 12 13 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: So, you know, if 14 anybody wants to ask questions in the course of your 15 talk here, I might encourage that so we know where we 16 are. Is the South Ravelligio project, would you say 17 that's a similar project to what's referred to as these 18 landscape level analysis that are going on, the Central 19 and POW, or is it something different? 20 21 MS. HOWLE: I'm so glad you asked that 22 question. No, this is not a landscape project, this is 23 -- we're not doing conditioned-base analysis, we'll be 24 doing site specific analysis by stand. So it's a 25 little bit different than these landscape projects. 26 27 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Thank you. 28 Anybody else with questions thus far. 29 30 (No comments) 31 32 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Go ahead with 33 anything more you have to say. 34 35 MS. HOWLE: Just maybe a few other 36 projects on our district that I just wanted to mention. 37 We will be looking at doing a categorical exclusion for 38 a mining minerals plan of operations. A company named 39 AgnicoEagle submitted a plan of operations in August. 40 This project will take place over on the Cleveland 41 Peninsula, which happens to be a roadless area, and it 42 did get Regional Forester approval. It'll be -- it's a 43 stage project. Last year they went out to do limited 44 surface survey and then this year, or 2020 they'll be 45 going out to actually do some drilling. So this is an 46 exploratory drilling project and I believe there are 47 about 23 drill sites that have been identified and this 48 is in the Helm Bay area. If you're interested in 49 learning more about that, we did post the plan of



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1 operations to the project web page and this is -- I 2 think everybody knows, you can go to the Tongass public 3 website and look on the projects and you'll see this 4 one under Helm Bay prospecting request. So they will 5 be beginning that project in the spring of 2020. 6 7 Some other projects we have going on, 8 we have another project, Beaver Falls hydro electric 9 project relicensing. This is something that's going to

10 be taking place over the course of five years. It's 11 upper and lower Silvas Lakes, south of town, and this 12 is FERC project. So we're just in the pre-application 13 part of that. There aren't any kind of changes that 14 are being proposed, it's just relicensing that has to 15 take place. But we're staying engaged in that, we have 16 a team on the Forest that's reviewing documents and 17 staying engaged in that. 18 19 And let's see, I do want to mention we 20 did complete one project, Margaret Creek watershed 21 restoration and enhancement project. I signed the 22 decision August 12th of '19. This is a project up in 23 Traders Cove area. And it's pretty important. The 24 Forest Supervisor designated Margaret Creek watershed 25 as a priority watershed. So we will have ongoing work 26 for the next few years in that area. It includes 27 watershed and fish habitat restoration. Recreation 28 development. Wildlife enhancement. And also invasive 29 plant treatment opportunities. So if you're interested 30 in looking at the decision and the environmental 31 assessment that my Staff and I worked on, that's also 32 on the project web page. 33 34 I think that's about it for ongoing 35 projects on the district. If anybody has any questions 36 we're here to answer. 37 38 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: I don't have to 39 raise my hand anymore. 40 41 (Laughter) 42 43 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: And did you have 44 an update for us on the Prince of Wales landscape level 45 analysis. 46 47 MS. HOWLE: I believe DeAnna's going to 48 give an update on that. 49



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1 MS. PERRY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. The 2 only thing to share on Prince of Wales landscape level 3 analysis at this point is that the Tongass National 4 Forest is going to hold a fall 2019 POWLLA project 5 public workshop. It's going to be this Saturday, 6 November 9th from 9:00 to 4:00 p.m., at the Prince of 7 Wales Vocational and Technical Educational Center in 8 Klawock, and I've handed out to everybody -- I think 9 I've -- I'm short two -- but I've handed that

10 information out. And they just state that this is the 11 second of many workshops to be held over the span of 12 the comprehensive 15 integrated resource plan. 13 14 And we're hoping that by our winter 15 meeting we'll have more information on the Central 16 Tongass and POWLLA projects to share but we just have 17 limited personnel to speak to those items at this time. 18 19 Thank you. 20 21 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Thank you, DeAnna. 22 I think it might also be of interest to the Council 23 that there was a lawsuit filed against the Prince of 24 Wales plan and the judge did issue an injunction, which 25 halted any activity which involved changes to the 26 landscape. I can't remember exactly what the wording 27 was, but there will be no logging, or road building or 28 disturbances on -- associated with that Prince of Wales 29 plan until the judge makes a decision on the lawsuit. 30 So this meeting that's coming up to discuss projects, 31 there's some question -- this meeting next week that 32 DeAnna referred to, there's some question about whether 33 the Forest Service should be discussing logging plans 34 with a lawsuit still pending. 35 36 So I don't know if you know anything 37 about that Susan. 38 39 MS. HOWLE: Right. And that's why it's 40 important to know that we're not doing the condition- 41 based analysis. I believe that came up in the 42 preliminary injunction was, you know, not having site 43 specific things in the EIS for implementation. We will 44 be having that so it's a little bit different. 45 46 But I hear what you're saying about 47 timber harvest. It is something that we are being 48 asked to do and as you know the Tongass is the one 49 Forest with the law, Tongass Timber Reform Act, that



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1 says seek to meet market demand. So that's what we 2 have to do. 3 4 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: So you're 5 referring to your South Ravelligio plan, when you say 6 we are working on? 7 8 MS. HOWLE: As far as we're 9 implementing the Forest Plan. Is that what you mean?

10 I'm just bringing up the Forests in the Lower 48 don't 11 have laws like the Tongass has as far as the meeting 12 market demand, so it's something that we're always 13 asked to do. 14 15 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Right. So your 16 South Ravelligio plan that you're working on is not 17 this same type of plan as you pointed out as the Prince 18 of Wales landscape level analysis, you're doing -- that 19 was the basis of the lawsuit, that the Prince of Wales 20 landscape level analysis did not identify specific 21 areas that would be impacted and yet they're going 22 ahead with logging plans that did impact specific 23 areas, so that's what the judge's deciding on, whether 24 or not that's valid. But you're not in that situation 25 with your South Ravelligio plan because you are doing 26 site specific projects. 27 28 However, that's not the case as far as 29 I know on the Central Tongass, which is also a 30 landscape level analysis, so I don't know -- you know I 31 know this isn't probably your area, I was kind of 32 anticipating having the Forest Supervisor here to maybe 33 explain some of this. But did I hear that you were in 34 Petersburg for the Central Tongass, some meetings in 35 regard to the Central Tongass, what were you in 36 Petersburg for, I know you mentioned being there. 37 38 MS. HOWLE: Right. I actually was the 39 project manager on the Forest Plan that you have been 40 talking about today. So when I said I was in 41 Petersburg, that was back when we were amending the 42 Forest Plan and so, no, I appreciated all the comments 43 you had on your Roadless part about the Forest Plan and 44 a lot of the things that were brought up were very good 45 comments, I felt. 46 47 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: As I said I was 48 anticipating having, you know, Earl Stewart or possibly 49 Dave Schmid here at this meeting. Prior to the meeting



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1 I was told that they most likely would be here but I 2 don't know why not, I haven't heard an explanation of 3 why they're not here but I suspect maybe that this 4 recent events with the Roadless Rule could possibly be 5 detaining them. 6 7 Ms. Howle. 8 9 MS. HOWLE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

10 Yeah, I can tell you that every day I've been on phone 11 calls with Dave Schmid, Chris French, Earl. We divided 12 up into three different teams. As you saw the schedule, 13 I think there were some, what, 20-some roadless 14 meetings so that's where they've been all week and will 15 continue to be so that's why they weren't here tonight. 16 17 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Thank you for 18 giving us that explanation, appreciate it. 19 20 For the record I had hoped to be able 21 to ask one of them about, you know, the process in 22 what's going on with the Central Tongass plan now 23 because it was my understanding that a few weeks ago 24 there were ANILCA Title VIII subsistence hearings held 25 in communities affected by the Central Tongass plan. I 26 believe they had one in Kake and Petersburg and 27 Wrangell and I heard from my friends in Petersburg that 28 at that meeting, even though it was advertised as a 29 subsistence testimony, they were not recording it as 30 such, like we did here Tuesday night in Ketchikan and 31 an ANILCA hearing. You know that's what they told me. 32 And they said that Mr. Heithecker, apparently, was 33 conducting the meeting, the Deputy Forest Supervisor, I 34 believe, and he explained to them that he would be 35 taking notes on the testimony but not recording it, and 36 they were a little disturbed by that. I was hoping to 37 get an explanation why that occurred and whether it 38 occurred the way they described it to me. 39 40 So maybe I will just get that on the 41 record and I would request that one of the officials 42 from that meeting send some kind of correspondence to 43 the Council explaining what the policy is on these 44 Title VIII ANILCA hearings. You know we have all these 45 processes going on at the same time, you know, we got 46 Roadless meetings, and now we got Central Tongass, and, 47 yeah, it's a lot for local people to participate in and 48 they want to know that their voices are heard on all 49 these overlapping concerns, and I would like to hear



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1 what transpired at that meeting and how these things 2 are going to be conducted in the future when people are 3 anticipating a hearing and testimony on ANILCA .810 4 hearings. 5 6 So if you could relay those to the 7 appropriate officials, I'd appreciate it. 8 9 MS. HOWLE: Yes, Mr. Chair, I will

10 speak with our -- now he's back to his normal role, as 11 Deputy Forest Supervisor, Troy Heithecker. I know that 12 he was at the meeting so I can ask him to get something 13 to the Council about that. 14 15 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: I believe a letter 16 would be appropriate, so that would be my request. 17 18 Thank you. 19 20 Anybody else have any questions for Ms. 21 Howle. 22 23 (No comments) 24 25 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Thank you, very 26 much for your report. 27 28 DeAnna, do you have something. 29 30 MS. PERRY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I 31 just want to go on the record thanking District Ranger 32 Sue Howle and her group there at the Ketchikan Misty 33 Fjords Ranger District for providing us some rigs and 34 some support for our meeting here while we're in 35 Ketchikan. We thank you very much for that. 36 37 MS. HOWLE: Thank you, it's a pleasure. 38 39 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah, I was just 40 looking, we have some more agency reports to give us. 41 42 MR. HIDE: Yeah, Mr. Chair. Council 43 members. I just have an extra update on the eulachon 44 monitoring. It's similar to what you heard the other 45 evening but I have a short paragraph of what our 46 findings were. I don't believe I mentioned that the 47 other day. 48 49 MS. HOWLE: Your name.



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1 MR. HIDE: I'm Jon Hide, fish and 2 wildlife staff for the Ketchikan Misty Fjords Ranger 3 District. 4 5 So I'll skim through some of what I 6 have here in the bullets. It's similar to what you 7 heard Monday night. But, yeah, we worked with 8 Ketchikan Indian Community again, very well, we covered 9 quite a bit of ground this year and this last season we

10 observed eulachon up and down the river, but, 11 ultimately the numbers of fish we saw were a little bit 12 less than last year. We did see fish a little bit 13 further up and in different places, which is kind of 14 nice. 15 16 And I think that's it. Everything else 17 is pretty similar. 18 19 Any questions. 20 21 (No comments) 22 23 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Not seeing any so 24 thank you for that brief report. 25 26 And then if that's all for the Forest 27 Service, I think we have a report from possibly OSM, 28 they're on the..... 29 30 MS. PERRY: No, Tom Whitford. 31 32 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: We do, Mr. 33 Whitford. 34 35 MR. WHITFORD: Yes. 36 37 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yes. 38 39 MR. WHITFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I 40 did give you a report, it's kind of the format that 41 I've been giving you the last -- my name is Tom 42 Whitford, I'm the Regional Subsistence Program Leader 43 for the Forest Service. Same sort of format I've given 44 you the last few years. I won't go over the whole 45 thing but I thought it might be important to go over 46 the FY2020 operating budget, which would be -- I don't 47 have one of those in my hand, I think maybe Page 3. 48 Actually on the bottom of the third page and then on to 49 the back page.



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1 But I just wanted to talk about the 2 2020 budget. 3 4 The Forest Service is planning on its 5 normal budget this year of $2.5 million. Right now 6 these funds are spread between the Regional Office, 7 $295,000; Chugach National Forest $285,000; Tongass 8 $1.5 million. We may make some adjustments to this 9 depending on how we fund the FRMP program this year,

10 typically goes straight to the Tongass or the Forest. 11 Just going to let you know that we are working on, it's 12 a Service First agreement, between the Forest Service 13 and the Fish and Wildlife Service, OSM, where we would 14 be directing FRMP funds to OSM where they would manage 15 the projects and the Forest Service would basically be 16 implementing those out on the ground with our 17 cooperators and our partners in those FRMP projects. 18 That's if this service first agreement, if we're able 19 to go forward with it this year. So just letting you 20 know that. 21 22 The proposed funding level will also 23 enable the Forest Service to continue funding 24 approximately 30 to 40 seasonal employees through the 25 FRMP program and also with some wildlife population 26 data collection. I know I told you earlier that 27 approximately 500,000 would go into FRMP, but in here I 28 put 800,000 and I'm not sure right now what that figure 29 will actually be. We're still working on that. But 30 that will be provided to the Tongass and the Chugach. 31 32 I know you had a question on wildlife 33 monitoring. We don't have specific funds, we don't 34 have a wildlife resource monitoring program, but the 35 Forest Service does fund wildlife monitoring. For 36 example, we did have the black bear monitoring project 37 on the Chugach. We will continue with that project for 38 the next couple of years. And we do fund monitoring in 39 cooperation with the Alaska Department of Fish and Game 40 and we will continue to do that. 41 42 We do plan on sending around 100,000 43 over to -- through an InterAgency agreement with the 44 Office of Subsistence Management to help with funding 45 this Council and the Southcentral Council and also some 46 work with anthropology, wildlife and fish support. 47 48 We also plan on funding law 49 enforcement. We did a bump back to 2019, just quickly



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1 -- in 2019 with law enforcement, we provided the, 2 $50,000 off the top and then on the Chugach National 3 Forest they asked for some extra law enforcement 4 funding to beef up on the ground law enforcement on the 5 Russian River and also on the Copper River Delta. That 6 was very successful. We had a lot of contacts with 7 folks. And the Southcentral Regional Advisory Council 8 was very happy knowing that we had a little more law 9 enforcement out on the ground, there were lots of

10 contacts with folks. And as you may have heard they 11 had a large sockeye run on the Kenai this year and I 12 think the daily harvest limit was up to nine, 18 in 13 possession on the Russian, so there were a lot of 14 people there and we did have a lot of law enforcement 15 there through our subsistence program. 16 17 And I think I'll -- so I don't eat up 18 all the time I'll end with that and I'd be happy to 19 answer any questions. 20 21 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah, are there 22 any questions for Mr. Whitford. 23 24 Mr. Bemis. 25 26 MR. BEMIS: Through the Chair. I see 27 you've got Suko Lake weir, you've got an automated 28 system for viewing the escapement into the lake and how 29 well did that work out, do you know about it or -- I 30 just see this here. In fact I know the gentleman 31 that's with -- Jake Musslewhite. 32 33 MR. WHITFORD: Yeah, I think I'll have 34 the Tongass answer that question. 35 36 MR. KOLLER: Thank you, Mr. Bemis. 37 Through the Chair. Justin Koller. I'm a fisheries and 38 wildlife biologist for the Sitka Ranger District. I 39 work with Jake pretty closely on these projects. He's 40 done a good job in developing these automated systems 41 for monitoring sockeye systems and they work really 42 well in certain areas. Sitkho was one of those areas 43 they work really well in. 44 45 MR. BEMIS: I was just wondering, 46 that's a fully automated system? 47 48 MR. KOLLER: It is. So basically 49 there's a couple of weirs, two net weirs that have



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1 under water video cameras. And what Jake's been able 2 to do is transmit that video, a live feed to a mountain 3 top repeater back down to Angoon Community Association 4 where they review the video. And it was a huge benefit 5 to have that automated system and it was a huge upgrade 6 to the old system of going up into the lake and 7 actually handling fish. So we're getting some very 8 good reliable counts. 9

10 MR. BEMIS: Yeah, we've got an issue 11 where we're trying to move our weir and it would be 12 nice -- did they say that there's no way they can 13 account for the fish going down below and it's a 14 14 mile stretch, and it seemed like something similar to 15 this would work as far as knowing what was coming into 16 the system before it got to the weir, I mean a 17 similarity. Eventually we're going to have to do 18 something because the weir, where it's at, is not 19 working very efficient, you know, so I'm just looking 20 at options. Not saying it can be done but it's very 21 interesting that this works. And I know more of other 22 areas have used this similar system, on the Situk River 23 it might be a little different. 24 25 Thank you. 26 27 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Is that it 28 Tom, do you -- oh, a question from Patty. 29 30 MS. PHILLIPS: I was wondering about 31 the FIS, when they complete, you know, or the projects, 32 we used to get like presentations, like they would 33 bring in people that, you know, that they built 34 capacity in and the principal investigator and they 35 would talk about the project and the outcomes of the 36 project to us, so is that -- I mean we should at least 37 get something, I mean we make all these recommendations 38 and we're not seeing the end results. I mean we are in 39 terms of data but actual people results. 40 41 MR. WHITFORD: I think that's a great 42 point. I mean I will work on making that happen. 43 Because I agree with you, there's a lot of money that 44 goes into this program, I think the Forest Service has 45 put in around $29 million through the life of the FRMP 46 program and we've built a lot of relationships with 47 tribes and different groups throughout the Southeast 48 and it'd be awesome to have some of those folks come in 49 and present some of the information they've been



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1 gathering. 2 3 MR. SUMINSKI: Through the Chair. Ms. 4 Phillips. We always think about that in every meeting, 5 given the work load at this meeting we decided not to 6 do that, because, you know, we probably wouldn't have 7 enough time. But we would really like to do that in 8 the spring so we'll have a presentation for you. 9

10 Thank you. 11 12 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Very good. 13 14 MR. DOUVILLE: Mr. Chair. 15 16 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Mike, go ahead. 17 18 MR. DOUVILLE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 19 I'd like to point out our work load is the same at 20 every meeting. 21 22 (Laughter) 23 24 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah, I think this 25 one was a bit of an exception, but, yeah, we would like 26 to try and make time to hear some of those reports, 27 that would be great. I appreciate you being able to do 28 that. 29 30 Any other questions for Mr. Whitford. 31 32 (No comments) 33 34 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay, thank you 35 very much. And we have one more report from the Office 36 of Subsistence Management. 37 38 MR. RISDAHL: Almost good evening, Mr. 39 Chair. Members of the Council. For the record my name 40 is Greg Risdahl and I'm the OSM Subsistence Fisheries 41 Division Lead. I first want to thank you all for your 42 very much appreciated hard work, especially nice for me 43 to be here because it's my first time as well into 44 Ketchikan and working with this Council. And there's a 45 lot of variation across the state so this has been very 46 fun for me and I'm happy to be here. 47 48 I'm going to give you just a brief 49 survey -- or a brief overview of three items. You've



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1 heard a little bit about some of it already so there 2 might be a slight bit of redundancy but I'll try not to 3 be too verbose. 4 5 First will be with reference to the 6 actions of the Federal Subsistence Board in fiscal year 7 2019. Second, I'll give you some of the highlights 8 from the Office of Subsistence. And third a little bit 9 of an update on the Staffing situation there.

10 11 During the Board's April 2019 12 regulatory meeting the Board took action on 19 13 fisheries regulatory proposals. During that time the 14 Board also implemented a system of temporary special 15 actions to cover approved changes to the fisheries 16 regulations until they were published in the Federal 17 Register. You'll recall that there was a furlough and 18 things didn't happen as soon as we normally would like 19 to see them, and actually the new regulations did not 20 get implemented, did not get put into code until well 21 after the normal April change period. 22 23 The Board also took action on one non- 24 rural proposal, one fisheries temporary special action 25 request, and three requests for reconsideration. 26 27 At the Board's July 19th, 2019 28 teleconference they took action on three wildlife 29 temporary special action requests. One had to do with 30 Unit 13 moose and caribou, which failed. The Unit 10 31 Unimak Island caribou special action request was 32 supported, again, for the second time. And the third 33 was the Unit 20E, Unit 25C and Unit 20F caribou 34 regulations and that was also supported. 35 36 At the Board's August 2019 public work 37 session, they reviewed Regional Advisory Council 38 nomination package and charters. The package was 39 submitted to the Secretary's office after being 40 reviewed by the special assistant to the Secretary, 41 Steve Wackowski, and the USDA Regional Forester. 42 43 The Board took action then on three 44 wildlife temporary special action requests. One had to 45 do with the Unit 18 moose, which was supported with 46 modification to delegate authority to the in-season 47 manager and the Unit 2 wolf proposal, which was also 48 supported. The third was Unit 23 moose and it was also 49 supported.



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1 The Board also reviewed two Federal 2 Subsistence program informational videos. One was 3 titled how to submit a proposal and the second, how to 4 become a member of the Regional Advisory Council. 5 Additional videos are being developed on how to submit 6 a special action request and how to request a cultural 7 or educational permit. These are being developed for 8 multiple purposes. For instance, bringing on new 9 Council members or for anybody interested in what we

10 do, because it is complicated. These videos are being 11 produced in partnership with the Alaska Teen Media 12 Institute and the videos are available on Facebook, the 13 OSM web page and YouTube. 14 15 The Federal Subsistence Board currently 16 has scheduled two meetings for the upcoming year. The 17 first will be in January, January 28th to the 30th. It 18 will be a public work session to be held in Anchorage 19 and the Board will address the Fisheries Resource 20 Monitoring Program that Scott and Pippa reported to you 21 on earlier. 22 23 In April the wildlife regulatory 24 meeting is scheduled and it is, at the moment being 25 scheduled for Copper Center. At this meeting the 26 Board's going to take action on all of the wildlife 27 regulatory proposals, including the ones that you folks 28 discussed the last two days. 29 30 As far as Office of Subsistence 31 Management highlights for this last year, 55 wildlife 32 proposals were analyzed by Staff and are being -- this 33 is the last meeting, this one and the one going on in 34 Yukon Delta -- well, actually I don't think it happened 35 if you all heard that they had -- is it on? 36 37 REPORTER: (Nods affirmatively) 38 39 MR. RISDAHL: Thanks. They had a big 40 ice storm there and it had really cut down on their 41 meeting time. 42 43 But anyway, the wildlife proposals have 44 been acted on by all the Councils and they will move 45 forward to the Board which will be acted on during 46 their April meeting as mentioned. 47 48 The anthropology division Staff 49 conducted analysis on 10 customary and traditional use



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1 determination proposals. You guys talked about a bunch 2 of them here, there were also some for Southcentral and 3 Interior Alaska. 4 5 So far this year, OSM has analyzed 6 eight wildlife temporary special action requests. The 7 Board's taken action on six of those already and two 8 are still in review. 9

10 This year it was scheduled to review 17 11 wildlife closure reviews, these are also being 12 presented during this fall cycle. Again, the Board 13 will take action on those during the April 2020 14 meeting. 15 16 OSM Staff also made comments on 46 17 Alaska Board of Game proposals that have the potential 18 to affect Federally-qualified subsistence users in 19 Southcentral and Southeast Alaska Regions. 20 21 One Federal subsistence temporary 22 special action for chinook salmon was restricted by the 23 Federal Subsistence Board on the Kuskokwim River this 24 year and two Federal subsistence chinook salmon 25 fisheries were restricted or closed through the 26 emergency special action process, and those were in the 27 list that, I think, Mr. Suminski offered to you 28 earlier. 29 30 In addition, two subsistence sockeye 31 salmon fisheries were closed through Federal emergency 32 special action due to low returns on the Chignik and 33 Stikine Rivers. In addition the in-season run 34 assessment prompted an automatic closure through the 35 Pacific Salmon Treaty due to no harvestable surplus. 36 37 This year six subsistence rule-making 38 documents were published in the Federal Register which 39 included two proposed rules, three final rules, one 40 notice on information, collection for permits, and the 41 Council nomination packets. Specifically they included 42 the proposed rule for the Cook Inlet area regulations, 43 the final rule for the 2018-2020 subsistence taking of 44 wildlife, the notice of information collection request 45 for comment, the proposed rule for the subsistence 46 taking of wildlife for 2020-2022, the final rule for 47 the Cook Inlet area regulations and the final rule for 48 the subsistence taking of fish regulations for 2019- 49 2021.



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1 You heard from orville quite a few 2 times over the last three days and he, in fact, did 3 conduct numerous tribal consultations with 149 4 Federally-recognized tribes, and all ten Regional 5 Corporations, as well as 10 tribal engagement sessions. 6 He also worked quite a bit with some of the high 7 schools in four of the different regions with the goal 8 of increasing awareness of the Federal Subsistence 9 Program and its objectives.

10 11 You may recall back in 2017 the Board 12 adopted a new policy on non-rural determinations and in 13 the spring of 2018 the first call for proposals to 14 change the non-rural determinations was issued. OSM 15 received one proposal from the Southcentral region for 16 Moose Pass. And the Board determined that the proposal 17 met the new threshold requirements in April 2019 and 18 directed the OSM Staff to proceed with a full analysis. 19 This analysis will go before the Board and final action 20 not until January of 2021. It is a very long process. 21 22 OSM Staff are also drafting a best 23 practices document to be finalized this year and this 24 document will provide the basic guidance for data 25 request exchanges between the State of Alaska, 26 Department of Fish and Game and OSM. 27 28 OSM participated in several outreach 29 and information booth situations this past year. One 30 recently up in Fairbanks, the AFN annual meeting as 31 well as the BIA Providers Conference as well as several 32 Regional Corporation annual meetings. 33 34 The Board accepted the majority of the 35 RAC recommendations in whole or in part for 18 of the 36 19 fisheries regulatory proposals that were presented 37 to them this year. 38 39 As I stated earlier, you had the 40 overview of the Federal Fisheries Resource Monitoring 41 Program and Partners Programs, just to summarize: This 42 past year OSM Staff reviewed 28 FRMP proposals for the 43 2020 notice of funding opportunity. Those proposals, 44 again, were scored by a Technical Review Committee, and 45 awards will be announced in the winter meeting by the 46 Board, so coming up in January. 47 48 Federal and State partners reviewed a 49 total of 14 proposals for the Partners for Fisheries



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1 Resource Monitoring Program, the Partners Program, and 2 I can't remember, I think it might have been Tom, but, 3 noted that seven partner proposals were awarded. Five 4 of those were to folks that have been receiving 5 partners awards already and the two new ones, the 6 Yakutat Tlingit and Qwangalin Tribes. Those are the 7 new ones this year. In total OSM awarded nearly $4.5 8 million to fund FRMP and Partners Projects in 2019. 9

10 And similar to the Forest Service, we 11 have been able to forward fund a lot of our projects 12 because there's been some questions about budgets and 13 that sort of thing, we're actually in a very good 14 position right now because we've had -- one of the 15 parts of it is negative, we've had 12 vacancies for the 16 last couple of years, but it allowed us to have 17 additional funds so we have paid for all of the 18 projects, the existing and set aside additional, up to 19 maybe two million for the new FRMP projects for all of 20 next year and a lot of them for the following year. so 21 we're doing pretty good there. When we fill our 22 positions, who knows where we're going to be, it'll be 23 -- we'll have to see how much funds come available in 24 the next couple years. 25 26 As far as Staffing goes. 27 28 Our primarily position to get filled 29 was the Assistant Regional Director, one of 12 30 positions, and that position was actually advertised 31 three times. The first two times the Certs were 32 cancelled and I do know this third Cert, they have sent 33 out the candidates, the most highly qualified 34 candidates -- I haven't heard anything about interviews 35 yet, but they have also selected the hiring committee 36 made up of Rhonda Pitka, Tony Christianson, Fish and 37 Wildlife Service Director Greg Siekaniec, Dave Schmid, 38 Mike Reardon, he's a retired Yukon Delta National 39 Wildlife Refuge Manager and I believe Steve Wackowski 40 will also be on that. We're hoping to have someone in 41 that position soon. 42 43 The other hiring priorities for OSM are 44 the Anthropology supervisor, three administrative 45 assistants, and those positions have already been 46 advertised and by the time I get back I suspect we'll 47 be seeing some names in our in-box about who the 48 potential candidates are. 49



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1 We also have two fishery biologists 2 positions with HR waiting to go through the same 3 process of advertising in USAJobs. Two wildlife 4 biologist positions, the Council coordinator supervisor 5 position, one cultural anthropologist and the 6 subsistence policy coordinator. 7 8 Until we fill all these positions, we 9 are currently detailing several people in some of the

10 positions. Suzanne Worker, one of our wildlife 11 biologists is currently acting as a subsistence policy 12 coordinator. When I'm back in the office I'm also the 13 -- I'm doing double duty as the Deputy Assistant 14 Regional Director and the subsistence Fisheries lead. 15 Tom Kron is currently acting as the Council 16 coordination supervisor. 17 18 The last thing that I wanted to report 19 on is you probably heard about the JAO, the Joint 20 Administrative Operations Division. This is something 21 new that started when Secretary of Interior Ryan Zinke 22 took office, and it has continued forward with David 23 Bernhardt. In this branch, the Fish and Wildlife 24 Service is consolidating Human Resources, Finance, 25 Acquisitions, Property and Safety into one centralized 26 entity. The JAO is still getting set up so to speak. 27 One of the things that has slowed our hiring process 28 down besides the hiring freeze and the furlough, those 29 sorts of things, is that our Human Resources office has 30 kind of been in limbo but once it's fully set up and 31 running we should be able to fill those positions 32 relatively quickly. In the interim we do have a 33 process now established. Each of the different 34 branches at Fish and Wildlife Service, they submit 35 every two weeks their priority positions for hiring and 36 the Deputy and Regional Director selects which 37 positions should be filled first. So we at least are 38 moving forward on that so that's a really good thing. 39 40 On another really bright note, OSM 41 hired and placed 11 Alaska Native Science and 42 Engineering, interns, the ANSEP Program, you've 43 probably heard of that in 2019. And this is to expose 44 young people to careers in biology and engineering. 45 This year we had four ANSEP Summer Bridge students 46 entering their first year of college, six ANSEP 47 University success students with career interests in 48 Fish and Wildlife Service, Fish and Game, Native and 49 rural conservation organizations and Partners type



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1 things. 2 3 With that I'd be happy to take any 4 questions. 5 6 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah, thank you, 7 Greg. A lot to report there. 8 9 Any questions from the Council.

10 11 (No comments) 12 13 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Not seeing any so, 14 yeah, it sounds like you're really short Staffed up 15 there and it sounds like everybody's doing double duty 16 and lots of work so appreciate your efforts and we'll 17 try and make things a little easier for you by just 18 pass our comments on the Roadless right on through 19 there, you don't have to do much with those. 20 21 (Laughter) 22 23 MR. RISDAHL: Mr. Chair. You make sure 24 that comes to my in-box and it will happen the same 25 day. 26 27 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Thank you, very 28 much. 29 30 Okay, that was our last report. One 31 last item of business, I believe, unless I missed 32 anything, DeAnna, I don't think I have, is the setting 33 of the dates for our next meetings. 34 35 Do you want to fill us in on that 36 DeAnna. 37 38 MS. PERRY: If I could, Mr. Chair, 39 thank you. The winter meeting calendar in your book on 40 Page 416 is still current. For the winter meeting the 41 Council coordinators have been asked to help Council 42 members obtain their RealID. I know some folks already 43 have that but the RealID will be required starting 44 October 2020. It's identification and that's for 45 people to fly without a passport. 46 47 This Council is looking at having its 48 winter meeting in Petersburg and I've checked and there 49 is a DMV there. And you also, in your meeting book,



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1 have some materials explaining what's needed to obtain 2 a RealID, like what documentation you need, that's in 3 your meeting books on Page 313 and 315. Council 4 coordinators have been asked to help with transporting 5 Council members to the DMV in those locations where our 6 meetings are being held and assist in any other way as 7 appropriate, and we've been instructed to set aside 8 time in the morning of the first day of the meeting to 9 do this.

10 11 So, Mr. Chair, if you would find out 12 the will of the Council on the date and location for 13 the winter meeting and then I'll put the fall 2020 new 14 meeting calendar up on the screen. 15 16 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Thank you, DeAnna. 17 So we just want to confirm that February 25, 26th and 18 27th in Petersburg is still a good date for the 19 Council. 20 21 Ms. Needham. 22 23 MS. NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I 24 have a question. So Petersburg has a DMV, do we know 25 that it's going to be open on that first day. I know 26 sometimes some of the smaller communities have reduced 27 hours at their DMV. 28 29 MS. PERRY: Through the Chair. Thank 30 you, Ms. Needham. I do not know the answer to that 31 question. I'm sorry, I didn't know there were limited 32 hours. 33 34 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah, you better 35 check on that. I know I got my enhanced ID there and 36 they have pretty limited hours in Petersburg so make 37 sure you check on that schedule. 38 39 Ms. Needham. 40 41 MS. NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm 42 wondering if we should consider moving the meeting to a 43 community we know that can accommodate that and I'll 44 also point out that the last time we met in Petersburg 45 and this time of year, also, is that we have a really 46 hard time finding places to actually eat in Petersburg 47 so I think this time of year might actually be 48 problematic as well. So as much as I hate to hesitate 49 to suggest that Juneau might be actually a venue to



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1 move to for both of those reasons. 2 3 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: It doesn't matter 4 to me. I got no special reason to go to Petersburg. I 5 don't know, what's the will of the Council, and, 6 DeAnna, is there any problems in changing the location 7 at this date. 8 9 MS. PERRY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I

10 don't believe location change should be a problem. I 11 have not started seeking confirmation on venues yet so 12 I could do that. 13 14 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: I don't know, 15 other comments from the Council on what Cathy said. 16 17 Mr. Yeager. 18 19 MR. YEAGER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I 20 agree with Cathy. As much as I would like to be able 21 to do some of the smaller communities, Wrangell would 22 be in the same scenario as far as places to eat and we 23 can really kill a lot of time trying to get lunches and 24 dinners and that can be pretty problematic. So I 25 concur with Cathy's recommendation. 26 27 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Thank you, John. 28 Yeah, from what I know about Petersburg, I don't 29 believe the restaurant situation has changed in the 30 wintertime there from recent times. I don't know, does 31 that take a vote, DeAnna, or do we just need a 32 consensus from the Council on something like that. 33 34 MS. PERRY: Mr. Chair. This is an 35 action item and does require a vote. And actually my 36 right-hand person, Raeanna Wood has come to the rescue 37 with the Petersburg hours but I guess it depends on 38 what motion you all have. It looks like they are open 39 Mondays 7:00 to 5:00, Tuesdays 7:00 to 5:00 and closed 40 Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. 41 42 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Well, with 43 them being open on Tuesday I don't think that would be 44 a problem, but I don't know does anybody want to make a 45 motion on the suggestion. 46 47 Mr. Yeager. 48 49 MR. YEAGER: I move that we change our



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1 meeting location to Juneau for our winter meeting, but 2 keeping the February dates, 25, 26 and 27. 3 4 MR. DOUVILLE: I'll second. 5 6 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Thank you. All in 7 favor of the motion to move the location for our winter 8 meeting from Petersburg to Juneau, same dates as 9 indicated, say aye.

10 11 IN UNISON: Aye. 12 13 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Is there anybody 14 opposed. Okay, make a note, DeAnna. 15 16 Okay, now we have to schedule a meeting 17 for a year out, for our next fall meeting of 2020, so 18 there's the calendar, and what you have on the screen 19 is different than what we have in our books, so please 20 review what's on the screen to see what might work 21 there. 22 23 MS. PERRY: I know it's kind of hard to 24 read, to fit it all on one screen, but just as a 25 reminder, we can only have two Council meetings in one 26 week based on Staff availability, so as you can see 27 since we're one of the last meetings being held this 28 year a lot of the weeks are already taken a year from 29 now. So it looks like we couldn't have it the week of 30 October 12th, couldn't have it the week of October 31 26th. 32 33 Thank you. 34 35 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Anybody got any 36 preliminary suggestions here, start throwing them out 37 and we'll kick them around and see what works for 38 folks. 39 40 Just go ahead and cue your mics and say 41 if you got any preferences there. 42 43 MR. DOUVILLE: It looks like the week, 44 I think, of October 18th, I can't read it very well, is 45 open. 46 47 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: It is. October 48 18th is open it looks like, yeah. 49



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1 Okay. DeAnna points out to me that the 2 AFN Convention is going on in Anchorage that week, I 3 don't know if that conflicts with anything anybody -- 4 if that's a factor. It's not a Council meeting but 5 it's AFN going on. 6 7 MR. DOUVILLE: Mr. Chair. I'll move 8 that we consider the week of October 18th. 9

10 MR. LEIGHTON: Second. 11 12 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. We got a 13 motion and a second for week of October 18th. 14 15 Discussion. 16 17 Mr. Douville. 18 19 MR. DOUVILLE: Under discussion, Mr. 20 Chairman, we've requested this before, we always get to 21 choose last and it's really difficult. So I think 22 these should be on a rotation basis to be fair to 23 everybody. So at some point we get to be first, 24 second, third, fourth, and on but we're always stuck 25 struggling because the dates are all full. 26 27 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Duly noted. 28 Actually I think we had that maybe as an annual report 29 topic in the past, we might want to consider adding 30 that when we have a chance to finalize our annual 31 report. So that's a good point, Mike. 32 33 Any other discussion on that week of 34 October the 18th. 35 36 (No comments) 37 38 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Shall we call for 39 the question on the week first. 40 41 MS. NEEDHAM: Question. 42 43 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Question's been 44 called for. All in favor of meeting in the week of 45 October 18th say aye. 46 47 IN UNISON: Aye. 48 49 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Any opposed.



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1 (No opposing votes) 2 3 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Now for a 4 location. 5 6 MR. WRIGHT: Hawaii. 7 8 (Laughter) 9

10 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Hawaii, heard that 11 one before, Frank, it doesn't work. 12 13 (Laughter) 14 15 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Mr. Bemis. 16 17 MR. BEMIS: Through the Chair. I hear 18 Mr. Yeager over here whispering, he said something 19 about Sitka. 20 21 (Laughter) 22 23 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Sitka's always a 24 good option. Do you want to make that as a motion. 25 26 Mr. Yeager. 27 28 MR. YEAGER: Mr. Chair. I move that we 29 hold our fall 2020 meeting in Sitka on October 19, 20, 30 and 21. 31 32 MS. NEEDHAM: Second. 33 34 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. We have a 35 motion and a second. So any other discussion on Sitka 36 next October. 37 38 Mr. Schroeder. 39 40 MR. SCHROEDER: The dates are fine with 41 me. Generally our Staff don't like to show up on 42 Mondays and the 19th is a Monday. 43 44 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: I'm having trouble 45 reading those numbers up there, but whatever the date 46 is Tuesday is. 47 48 MR. SCHROEDER: Okay. 49



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1 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Make a note of 2 that. But right now the discussion is whether to have 3 it in Sitka. 4 5 MR. SCHROEDER: Yeah, let's do it. 6 7 Question. 8 9 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Question's

10 been called for. All in favor of holding our 2020 fall 11 meeting in Sitka say aye. 12 13 IN UNISON: Aye. 14 15 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Is there anybody 16 opposed to that. 17 18 MR. KITKA: I abstain. 19 20 (Laughter) 21 22 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Harvey abstains. 23 Make a note Harvey abstains. 24 25 (Laughter) 26 27 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. So DeAnna. 28 29 MS. PERRY: Mr. Chair. Just a point of 30 order. I believe part of Mr. Yeager's motion did 31 include the dates of 19, 20 and 21. 32 33 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: So actually the 34 date would be 20, 21, 22 is that correct? 35 36 MS. PERRY: If that's Mr. Yeager's 37 motion. 38 39 MR. YEAGER: Mr. Chair. I'll amend the 40 motion to reflect the 20, 21, 22. 41 42 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. Whoever 43 seconded. 44 45 MS. NEEDHAM: I concur. I seconded it 46 so I concur. 47 48 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. So do we 49 need to have another vote on that.



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1 MS. PERRY: (Nods affirmatively) 2 3 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: All in favor of -- 4 we made a motion to make that date on 20, 21 and 22, 5 say aye. 6 7 IN UNISON: Aye. 8 9 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Any opposed to

10 that, no. 11 12 (No opposing votes) 13 14 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay, that's 15 official then. Thank you, very much. 16 17 MR. WRIGHT: And one abstention. 18 19 (Laughter) 20 21 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Okay. You know, 22 I'm looking at my watch and I see 5:00 o'clock straight 23 up which is merely coincidental but we were hoping to 24 be done by 5:00 o'clock. I know everybody's got to 25 pack up and leave, a lot of the Council are leaving 26 this evening. For those people who are taking flights 27 this evening, there's going to be a ride out if 28 everybody gathers at 6;15 in the lobby. And then we 29 got flights going out tomorrow morning, and if people 30 meet at 7:15 in the lobby to catch a ride out there 31 that'll work. 32 33 So, with that, before I adjourn the 34 meeting I would like to ask if we have -- we can always 35 take a little bit of time, extra time, if folks want to 36 make any final comments. Give that opportunity. 37 38 Ms. Needham. 39 40 MS. NEEDHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 41 What a miracle we finished. We always push it to the 42 end. 43 44 I want to just thank the students for 45 being here again and sticking it out with us until the 46 very end of our meeting. You guys are great, keep up 47 the good work, I wish you all the best as you proceed 48 through your class, and hopefully get to participate at 49 the Federal Subsistence Board level next and thank you



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1 for your hard work in the work group as well, and 2 coming and participating in that aspect. The program 3 is wonderful and I hope that it continues, that we can 4 help find a way to continue to keep it funded. 5 6 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Thank you, Cathy. 7 I definitely concur. 8 9 Harvey.

10 11 MR. KITKA: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I 12 know I kind of make fun of choosing Sitka an awful lot 13 of times but it seems like when you have a meeting in 14 the communities where one of our RAC members reside, 15 sometimes the RAC members have to take time off from 16 their work for things, or sacrificing their pay for 17 this meeting. And it seems like at some point they 18 should do something, at least, to give that member 19 something anyway. It happens in a lot of places, 20 especially going to Juneau, and we've got two Juneau 21 people here, they might be traveling or doing 22 something, or having to give up something to attend the 23 meeting. 24 25 Thank you. 26 27 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah, that's a 28 good point, Harvey. We'll take note of that and maybe 29 we could make it happen so thank you. 30 31 Anybody else, final comments. 32 33 (No comments) 34 35 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Nope, don't see 36 any. Well, I'd just like to say that I really 37 appreciate all the folks that came and testified before 38 us here in this meeting in Ketchikan. We always really 39 appreciate that. 40 41 We really appreciate having the 42 students here again. I hope this program continues. 43 44 I really appreciate all the really hard 45 work of the Council this week. Everybody was very 46 willing to give up a lot of their free time to get 47 together in work groups and hash some of this stuff out 48 and that was just really helpful, and it's all 49 appreciated.



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1 So with that I guess I can -- oh, one 2 more comment -- Mr. Douville. 3 4 MR. DOUVILLE: I would like to thank 5 our girls for being here and hopefully you learned a 6 lot. It is exhausting. 7 8 You know, I'd like to thank these 9 brilliant minds here that are working on the Roadless

10 issue. As time goes on it seems like things are 11 accelerating in a negative way and it's affecting where 12 I live probably as much as anywhere in Southeast, and 13 it really is frightening and I don't like it. It's 14 very destructive and it's going to affect generations 15 to come. 16 17 I want to thank you guys for stepping 18 up to the plate and going after it, even if we aren't 19 successful, at least we have tried. 20 21 Thank you. 22 23 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Yeah, thank you, 24 Mike. And thank you as well. And you can kind of 25 reminded me that, you know, I was going to say that, 26 yeah, you're right, we got a lot of stuff coming at us 27 from all directions here. I wish the Council only had 28 to focus on, you know, working on proposals and, you 29 know, focusing on what we're all on here for, our 30 biggest interest is fish and wildlife issues, you know, 31 and making things better for subsistence users and I 32 don't know we've got all these big projects, you know, 33 in the works coming down on us, that affect all our 34 users, and we have to devote time to that and I wish it 35 weren't that way but that seems to be the way of the 36 world. 37 38 Mr. Bemis, you had something to add. 39 40 MR. BEMIS: Yes, Mr. Chair. I agree 41 with Mr. Douville. That this is really a trying 42 situation. Like I said when we were having the meeting 43 with the people from Washington D.C., I told them that 44 I was totally in the dark where my community would be 45 about this Roadless Rule being thrown upon us so quick, 46 and as you look through that pamphlet and how quick two 47 hours went by, flipping through it and your mind 48 doesn't even get a chance to absorb it and they've done 49 a really good job of putting this thing together in



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1 their format, and it's going to just take us -- we 2 don't have much time but we really got to work together 3 and stay in contact with each other so that we 4 basically may be all choosing the right path for each 5 one of our communities and being able to put something 6 together so that we form some kind of a group and get 7 our information and our decision headed in the right 8 direction, to the right people that would work as one 9 bonafide group to be recognized.

10 11 Thank you. 12 13 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Thank you, Larry. 14 15 Frank, you had something. 16 17 MR. WRIGHT: Yeah, thank you, Mr. 18 Chair. You know what's happening in this world scares 19 me, you know, and it scares me for the younger people. 20 21 But first I'd like to thank the RAC. 22 You know we are a body that can give a message to the 23 upper people that are doing this to us, you know, we 24 are here to make sure that, you know, our subsistence 25 and our world tries to hang on. 26 27 So, Gunalcheesh to the RAC, the people 28 here putting your time in to do this. It makes me feel 29 good that I'm a part of it, you know, because -- you 30 guys make me feel good. 31 32 Gunalcheesh. 33 34 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: Thank you, Frank, 35 for that. We're going to give Frank the last word 36 here. 37 38 (Council nods affirmatively) 39 40 CHAIRMAN HERNANDEZ: I think so. Good 41 last words, Frank, so very good. 42 43 With that, I will adjourn the 2019 fall 44 Southeast RAC meeting at this time. Thank you all very 45 much. 46 47 (Off record) 48 49 (END OF PROCEEDINGS)



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1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ) 4 )ss. 5 STATE OF ALASKA ) 6 7 I, Salena A. Hile, Notary Public in and for the 8 state of Alaska and reporter for Computer Matrix Court 9 Reporters, LLC, do hereby certify:

10 11 THAT the foregoing pages numbered through 12 contain a full, true and correct Transcript of the 13 SOUTHEAST FEDERAL SUBSISTENCE REGIONAL ADVISORY COUNCIL 14 MEETING, VOLUME III taken electronically on the 7th day 15 of November in Ketchikan, Alaska; 16 17 THAT the transcript is a true and 18 correct transcript requested to be transcribed and 19 thereafter transcribed by under my direction and 20 reduced to print to the best of our knowledge and 21 ability; 22 23 THAT I am not an employee, attorney, or 24 party interested in any way in this action. 25 26 DATED at Anchorage, Alaska, this 29th 27 day of November 2019. 28 29 30 31 Salena A. Hile 32 Notary Public, State of Alaska 33 My Commission Expires: 09/16/22 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49

southeast alaska federal subsistence regional … · 2019. 11. 7. · phone: 907-243-0668 fax:...

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