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dve256Junior Member

Join Date: Jun 2011

Posts: 21

06-25-2011, 05:15 PM

I am building a heat treat furnace and need help with the wiring.I have this very nice diagram of how the curcuit is wired but I still

have a few questions.

Please forgive my stupidity (learning)

the picture of the wiring is at the bottom of the pdf

http://www.e3b6a5y.com/365/WiringDia...w2006power.pdf

On the diagram, where the heating element is wired to PID and the

power cord. How does one make this 3 way connection? My power

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Resqueline

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Join Date: Jul 2009Posts: 2,623

06-25-2011, 11:59 PM

It's quite simple really, see attached picture for one practical wiring

example.

Attached Thumbnails

dve256

Junior Member

Join Date: Jun 2011

Posts: 21

06-26-2011, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Resqueline

It's quite simple really, see attached picture for one

practical wiring example.

Thanks Resqueline you are a genius, just to be sure you have used

the 2 wires coming from the interlock to bridge -ssr to -PID? I like it!

I was going to do something different, and probably incorrect so I am

really glad to have come on here. Now I can see how it should goyeah it does seem easy and I can see how the current will flow

around and connect the parts.

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dve256

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Posts: 21

06-28-2011, 08:14 PM

Just finished wiring it all up and tested, pluged it in and the PID came

on. Once I figured how to set the temp and all the output light came

on for a couple of seconds and then house power went off.

In those couple seconds the inside of the kiln had become warm so it

sure was heating fast.

All I can think is maybe its wired wrongly or more likely drawing too

much power.

The element is rated 3220W. Is there anything I can do to test this or

something? Any ideas.

duke37

Senior Member

Join Date: Jan 2011

Location: Derbyshire. UK

Posts: 607

06-28-2011, 08:40 PM

There could be two reasons for the power going off.

1. Too high a current. At 230V you will need 14A, at 110V abot 30A.

2. Leakage to earth due to insulation that has absorbed moisture since

the furnace was last used.

Check what had tripped the house system, whether it was an

overcurrent trip or an earth leakage trip.

dve256

Junior Member

Join Date: Jun 2011

Posts: 21

06-28-2011, 10:17 PM

thanks for the reply, the breaker for the garage did not go down it

was the middle power breaker switch that was down in the fuse box.

Does that help?

So how do I find out if its an over current trip or earth leakage trip?Will try testing it again, this time from points in the house to see if it

does the same. (when everyone is out..)

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duke37

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Join Date: Jan 2011Location: Derbyshire. UK

Posts: 607

06-29-2011, 12:04 AM

I have never worked with 110V which from your reply I assume you

have. You will need some massive cables and they must not be

overloaded. Do not change to a 40A breaker unless the cables are up

to the job.

You do not say how the furnace is constructed. If the heating element

is laid in grooves in the ceramic bricks, then earth leakage is

possible. If the ceramics are new, they will have picked up some

moisture which should evaporate when the furnace is first heated.

Earth leakage will increase again when the ceramics get really hot.

dve256

Junior Member

Join Date: Jun 2011

Posts: 21

06-29-2011, 07:41 AM

yes you are correct the element is layed in groved in insulating fire

bricks but the bricks feel very dry so I don't think that could be the

problem.

If I streched out the element would that make the resistance higher

and current lower?I am not entirely sure of how it works, ie what makes it rated

3220W? How else can one change the ammount of amps?

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Help me fix this oven controller

circuit please!! See schemativDavid Nugent Electronic Basics 1

07-20-2003

08:30 PM

Re: Help me fix the oven controller

circuit please!! See schematic petrus bitbyter Electronic Basics 007-20-2003

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TBennettcc

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Location: Cape Coral, FL,

USA

Posts: 291

06-29-2011, 08:03 AM

Hmm. I was going to answer, but I see I'm in over my head here. Some reading material:

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=5608

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heating_element

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_heating

...the first of which is probably the most relevant. I'll be watching this thread closely...

Timothy D. Bennett

B.S. in Computer Science from FGCU

General Class Ham Radio License (KJ4MUY)

I love to learn about anything and everything. Bring it on!

dve256

Junior Member

Join Date: Jun 2011

Posts: 21

06-29-2011, 08:17 AM

I have just tryed pluging in, in the house, 240V.

This time the output came on for about 20 seconds then power went off, didn't expect that

Here is a pic of the inside of the kiln, maybe my spirals are too tightly packed, if the spiral touched itself would that cause this because there are a few bits that get awfully tight together

around corners ect.

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Thanks for the links, it is quite a complicated issue, especially as this is my first project in electrics. I will keep trying to understand it.

Last edited by dve256; 06-29-2011 at 09:14 AM..

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duke37

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Location: Derbyshire. UK

Posts: 607

06-29-2011, 10:25 AM

What country are you in?

What power voltages do you have?

The power is determined by the resistance of the element and the voltage of the supply. If you have 110V and 230V, then run it on 110V which will give about a quarter of the power and half

the current which the higher voltage will give.

You seem to have made a neat job of the construction. Quite ambitious for a first project.

In order to reduce the power, the resistance of the element needs to be increased. This can be done by lengthening it or making it of thinner wire. The odd touching turn should not make too

much difference although an even spread of turns means that the temperature is uniforn and you do not get hot spots which could burn out. You should try to spread the turns a little in the

corners since the heat will not be able to escape so easily from there, At low temperatures, the element may have significant temperature differences along its length but at high temperatures

these tend to reduce since radiation is proportional to absolute temperature to the power of four.

You cannot tell if there is moisture in the ceramic just by looking at it. How much moisture is there in a peanut, 10% or 20% ?

dve256

Junior Member

Join Date: Jun 2011

Posts: 21

06-29-2011, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duke37What country are you in?

What power voltages do you have?

The power is determined by the resistance of the element and the voltage of the supply. If you have 110V and 230V, then run it on 110V which will give about a quarter of the power

and half the current which the higher voltage will give.

I am in UK, voltage is 240V in house, I guess as the power went off on both attempts (in garage socket and house socket) the power in the garage is maybe 240V as well. Which would be

good as its what I need. Not sure why it stayed on for longer the second time around though (house socket).

Quote:

Originally Posted by duke37You cannot tell if there is moisture in the ceramic just by looking at it. How much moisture is there in a peanut, 10% or 20% ?

The bricks I bought second hand so I guess its hard to say if they contain moisture.

Well I think I am going to try making new chanels and streching the element, as it does seem quite tightly packed to look at it. It came unstreched at 50cm I streched it to 140cm as it said to

strech it out to 2-3 times. However I have seen other peoples heat treat ovens online and some seem to have their coils much more spaced out.

Will post back once I have modified frankinsteins coil and retested.

duke37

Senior Member

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Location: Derbyshire. UK

Posts: 607

06-29-2011, 02:11 PM

Stretching the coil will not add to the length of the wire so will not affect the resistance, I would not mess up your bricks by modifying the element.

You have approx 230V in all parts of your estate, the difference between the on times could be due to the fact that you are probably going through two different breakers.

Note that to get the power that is specified, you need 14A and this is above the 13A allowed from a power plug. When I worked for an electrical power company we were only allowed to pull

8A through a normal socket, this was considered the safe limit.

You have two options:-

1. Add about 50% more wire to drop the current to more like 10A.

2. Connect it up to a dedicated circuit like a cooker supply. This will run up to 30A.

dve256

Junior Member

Join Date: Jun 2011

Posts: 21

06-29-2011, 03:52 PM

Oh ok, only seen your message now and have already stretched the coil into a longer shape, nevermind its done now and I think it will improve the heat dispersion hopefully.

Will post a pic later.

So the element was 50ft (15m) so I need another 8m(50% extra wire) of heat resistant wire? I have no more room in the kiln for more elements so I assume you are saying add the wire into

the circuit on the outside, as in normal wiring.

Please clarify, even after lengthening the circuit then your saying the plug is under rated? Many thanks for your help!

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dve256

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06-29-2011, 04:58 PM

I have just tested it again and its running atm and the power is still on wtf yes!

Stretching it seems to have done it?

Is the output always at 1 level (full power) or should I expect increases in amps?

Heres a pic of the kiln ON!

KEWL!

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duke37

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Location: Derbyshire. UK

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06-29-2011, 07:29 PM

To get a current of 10A you need a resistance of about 25 ohms. Measure the resistance of the element you have and then work out how much extra length you need.

You must not have the extra element outside the furnace as it will get very hot and you will need to put it in an earthed box with a fan to keep it cool.

It worries me that you appear to have one end of your element outside the furnace. This looks very dodgy to me.

Use a digital meter to measure the resistance of the element and let us know what it is.

daddles

Senior Member

Join Date: Jun 2011

Location: US

Posts: 429

06-29-2011, 09:48 PM

It appears this is a home-made furnace, right? If so, it looks like you wound your own heating element. You said that stretching the element fixed the problem, so it's possible what happened

is that you had some of the element shorted out, reducing the resistance of the load and thus drawing too much current.

Ideally, the first thing to do before winding the heating element is to accurately measure the room temperature resistance. This lets you calculate the resistance per unit length, a useful number

to know. Then, after winding the element with a known amount of wire, you'd again measure the resistance to make sure there were no shorts in it. You can make these measurements pretty

accurately with two $5 Harbor Freight digital multimeters (i.e., make a Kelvin measurement with a battery).

Personally, I don't like exposed elements like that in a furnace, but sometimes it can't be helped. If you're using it for heat treating metals, then you'll probably be keeping the door closed most

of the time. I would make sure there's a safety interlock switch that shuts the power off if the door is opened (use e.g. a double pole relay to shut off both legs of the power). The reason is that

it's also tempting to use such a furnace as a forge, meaning you might r each in there with metal tongs to grab a piece of metal. If you touch the heating element in the right place, you might

get a fatal shock. I'd also make sure it was on a circuit with a ground fault interrupter breaker or outlet. If you're unsure of some of this stuff, it would pay to have a licensed electrician come

in and check things out for you. Sure, this stuff will cost extra money, but the total cost would be much less than a hospital visit or funeral costs.

I don't see a gas connector on it -- are you going to make it into an inert gas oven? That would be nice for helping to keep the scale off things.

duke37Senior Member

Join Date: Jan 2011

Location: Derbyshire. UK

Posts: 607

06-29-2011, 11:03 PM

You askIs the output always at 1 level (full power) or should I expect increases in amps?

The output will drop somewhat as the temperature rises since the resistance will rise with temperature. The variation will depend on the material of the wire, you can probably find this on theweb or get the information from your wire supplier.

Looks like the loading will drop by 6 to 10% on heat up. (Nichrome)

Last edited by duke37; 06-29-2011 at 11:10 PM.. Reason: Info added

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Help me fix this oven controller circuit please!! See schemativ David Nugent Electronic Basics 1 07-20-2003 08:30 PM

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dve256Junior Member

Join Date: Jun 2011

Posts: 21

06-29-2011, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duke37

You must not have the extra element outside the furnace as

it will get very hot and you will need to put it in an earthed

box with a fan to keep it cool.

It worries me that you appear to have one end of your

element outside the furnace. This looks very dodgy to me.

Thats not what I meant by heat resistant wire on the outside.. I mean

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Originally Posted by daddles

You said that stretching the element fixed the problem, so

it's possible what happened is that you had some of the

element shorted out, reducing the resistance of the load and

thus drawing too much current.

Yes it is working after stretching it out more. How would a 'short'

occur in this curcuit? (or 'a' circuit)

Pretty pleased with the fact that is working really, however if its

potentially a fire risk because of to much amps? then clearly I would

need to think about modifying it.But if the draw is too high won't it cut the power rather than cause a

fire? I know if your wiring cannot handle the current then it can

cause a fire but I have used thick enough wires only the plug is

possibly under spec.

to find the current W/E=I ... so 3220(W)/240(V) = 13.416666(Amps)

to find the resistance E/I=R ... so 240(V)/13.416666(Amps) =17.888199(Ohms)

find current W/R=I 240(V)/17.888199(ohms) = 13.416666(Amps)

multimeter says 15.1Ohms.

Sorry for the long post just trying to answer others questions and ask

a few of my own.

Last edited by dve256; 06-30-2011 at 12:12 AM..

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daddles

Senior Member

Join Date: Jun 2011Location: US

Posts: 429

06-30-2011, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dve256

Yes it is working after stretching it out more. How would a

'short' occur in this curcuit? (or 'a' circuit)

Pretty pleased with the fact that is working really, however

if its potentially a fire risk because of to much amps? then

clearly I would need to think about modifying it.

But if the draw is too high won't it cut the power rather

than cause a fire? I know if your wiring cannot handle the

current then it can cause a fire but I have used thick enoughwires only the plug is possibly under spec.

Imagine one turn of the helix. Now imagine the two ends of this one

turn touching each other. That's one type of a short and that length of

the helix would be shorted out. You probably would have noticed a

bunch of them shorted together (would have looked like an extensionspring with the coils touching). Still, having some shorted coils is the

only hypothesis I can think of that explains the working after

stretching.

There is no fire risk if you sized the wires properly and your home is

wired correctly (i.e., the circuit breaker doesn't allow more current

than the wires of that branch circuit can handle. If I were you, Iwould make damned sure that everything is done properly with

respect to your local laws and codes. In the US, if you wire

something up and it's not done per the code requirements and causes i i id t ll i it P 3

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duke37

Senior Member

Join Date: Jan 2011Location: Derbyshire. UK

Posts: 607

06-30-2011, 09:14 AM

I have had a look at the mains specification, it can go up to 253V.

253/15 = 16.9A

253*16.9 = 4267W

The garage is likely to be a on a fused spur and will be not happy

with an overload.

I suggest that you need to install a dedicated circuit and the

regulations state the it must be installed by a registered person.

ResquelineSuper Moderator

Join Date: Jul 2009

Posts: 2,623

06-30-2011, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dve256

There is a interlock which kills the power of the element

when the door is open which resquline kindly helped me

with the wiring, thank you.

Just be aware that there's still a potential for electric schock since the

interlock doesn't break both phases. At least make sure that the SSR

is breaking the Live wire.

The initial center breaker (whatever that is) tripping may be due to

several things.

1: Pure overload. The kiln draws a lot (as has been pointed out), and

together with other (varying) loads in the house it could be too much

for even the main breaker.

2: Moisture content in the bricks could trip a ground fault breaker (if

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Is there no other way to fix the problem? What if more wire is added

to the circuit as you previously suggested?

I do have a 200A tig welder which I am only able to use up to about

2/3 power before the fuse goes in the plug of the welder. Maybe I

could kill 2 birds with 1 stone? Could I change to an industrial plugon the kiln? do those industrial outlets work with 240V as we have

duduced thats what the kiln system needs.

dve256

Junior MemberJoin Date: Jun 2011

Posts: 21

06-30-2011, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Resqueline

Just be aware that there's still a potential for electric

schock since the interlock doesn't break both phases. At

least make sure that the SSR is breaking the Live wire.

The initial center breaker (whatever that is) tripping may

be due to several things.1: Pure overload. The kiln draws a lot (as has been pointed

out), and together with other (varying) loads in the house it

could be too much for even the main breaker.

2: Moisture content in the bricks could trip a ground fault

breaker (if that's what it is). After several attempts the

resulting heat has driven out the moisture.

Please clarify are you saying the door interlock is not going to kill the

power and I can still get a shock off the element when the door is

wiring pid controller circuit Page 3

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dve256

Junior Member

Join Date: Jun 2011

Posts: 21

06-30-2011, 11:43 PM

I am not sure why the first 2 times it tripped but maybe it was as

daddles explained the coils touching around the corners shorting out

some curcuit. Or possibly an earth leakage because of moisture

would make sense.

Similarly to when I use the welder the light dims a little for the kilnalso.

Can you tell me where I add the wire in on the circuit just so I am

sure, thanks. the wiring diagram is on page1.

Last edited by dve256; 06-30-2011 at 11:50 PM..

Resqueline

Super Moderator

Join Date: Jul 2009

Posts: 2,623

07-01-2011, 09:55 AM

Identifying the breaker that tripped will tell you & us what happened.

How many Amps is it, or is it rather a ground fault interrupter?

Some shorted turns in a few corners might have increased the Amp

draw a little but imho can't explain the big change you've got in run

time.

Interlock:I've added colors to the wires. Blue is Neutral and is always safe to

touch, red is Live and is always unsafe. Purple is the wire that needs

to be unpowered with kiln open.

If you can positively identify & connect Live & Neutral exactly as

shown the kiln should be safe enough. If not then you'll need to add a

contactor.

The extra piece of heater wire is added inside the kiln, neccessitating

an extra coupling point (orange) to splice the wires.

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(*steve*)

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07-01-2011, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Resqueline Blue is Neutral and is always safe to touch

Eeek! Unless you have an active/neutral fault somewhere that has reversed them.

Always treat both as live!

Resqueline

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Join Date: Jul 2009

Posts: 2,623

07-01-2011, 05:49 PM

Hehe, yes, it was a daring statement and of course you're right, one really shouldn't bet one's life that someone haven't made a (house) wiring error somewhere..

dve256

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Join Date: Jun 2011

Posts: 21

07-01-2011, 11:45 PM

Its the middle one that went off on the pic, earth protective device. says 80A

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Resqueline If you can positively identify & connect Live & Neutral exactly as shown the kiln should be safe enough

I dont understand your point, I have connect everything up as per diagram?

Last edited by dve256; 07-01-2011 at 11:48 PM..

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duke37

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Join Date: Jan 2011

Location: Derbyshire. UK

Posts: 607

07-02-2011, 10:41 AM

Is that the one with the red button which probably says test? There should be a label saying the fault current for trip, probobly 0.03A. If this is the one which has tripped, then you have earth

leakage on your furnace. You could try blowing into the furnace with a fan heater to dry the bricks.

With regard to the live and neutral, you must not assume that everything is wired and working correctly. As it stands, you are breaking the line only (if nothing fails) and the neutral is still

connected. This should be safe but I have known the neutral to rise to 80V due to a fault in the supply transformer, You should include a motor contactor with a start button and stop button so

that you need to start the furnace when it is loaded. The door switch would be connected as a remote stop. A light across the furnace supply should be added to show that power is on.

duke37

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Join Date: Jan 2011

Location: Derbyshire. UK

Posts: 607

07-02-2011, 11:25 AM

I have had another look at your picture, as far as I can tell it says 80A which is the current carrying capacity and 30mA which is the earth leakage trip level RCCB means residual current

circuit breaker.

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