bessing, joachim

8/3/2019 Bessing, Joachim

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Experiencing Space: Olafur Eliasson

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Page No. 100 - 104

fromIssue #8 Winter 2004/2005: Space Begins Because We Look Away From Where We Are

Whats actually going on between the subject and the space and how much of that is

happening in his space, his perception? The question of the position of the subject within

his space has become the theme of my artistic work.

By Joachim Bessing

JOACHIM BESSING:Do you remember your first artistic work?

OLAFUR ELIASSON: Thatd be my breakdancing. In 1984, I was completely convincedit was art. Today, I doubt that. But my belief back then that it was art wasnt bad in terms

of the performative aspect. Thats what made it, you might say, truly wild. For a teenager,

it meant no limits. My father was an artist, after all. Doesnt get any more banal, actually.

Did he paint?

Yes. And sculpted. Photographed a lot. A lot. Very early on, I started taking art lessons

from him on top of my school work. Pretty kitschy. When I was a teenager, I thought,

Ill dance, since thats art, too in principle, its all the same. But you have to realize

that breakdance in Denmark had absolutely nothing to do with breakdance in America;

nor subcultures, nor anything else. It was a trend, like roller-skating. But there was more

in it for us.

Did you learn breakdancing with the help of one of those courses in youth

magazines?

I was a model for a Scandinavian youth magazine that published a breakdancing course.

It was me and a group of about twenty dancers. I won the Scandinavian championship in

breakdancing two years in a row.

Wild!

Yes, wild. It was hardcore, too. Ive got some pretty funny photos from this period.

Where Im looking all serious with my striped sunglasses

White gloves?

White gloves. At some point I had to do something with all that. In Asia, they were able

to come up with unbelievably beautiful forms of breakdancing. In Korea. Fantastic!

Breakdance is one of those things I get interested in and then, of course, I find it

extraordinarily good!
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Where does this interest in working with our spatial perception come from?

Even when I began studying, I dealt with questions related to gestalt psychology. I wasnt

interested in the theme of space and time, not in any architectonic sense, but more from

its inner aspects: Where does a person find himself when he finds himself in a room?

Whats actually going on between the subject and the space and how much of that is

happening in his space, his perception? The question of the position of the subject withinhis space has become the theme of my artistic work.

Assistants in your studio work in your name. How did this company-like means of

working come about?

My projects require an extremely long process before theyre completed, before Ive

taken a problem and, while not exactly solving it, have given it representation. Usually I

go through a series of small lab experiments and tests with models on a table. Usually

with light. Thats the major part of the work here in the studio. Experimenting, testing

playing, basically. At the same time, though, always keeping the same question in mind:

What effect will this attempt have in a room full of visitors? Usually this experiment is

then digitized in order to create spatial plans and models. With these, I can recognize

problems that are difficult to discover during the small series of experiments. But then I

need a third phase in which I have to build a 1:1 model in the workshop in order to take

care of any remaining errors. Sometimes, too, you find out it simply doesnt work, and

then, the whole project dies. But if everythings working, the project goes to a stress

analyst who plots it out so that it can be actually constructed. For each one of these steps,

I need assistants, since I dont actually know much about all this myself. Ive discovered

that Im able to think more precisely when Im talking with my assistants. And that I also

find it more inspiring to work with several people. I barely have any craftsmans skills

myself. I cant draw digitally at all. Sometimes Ill perform a lab experiment myself, but

since we have to build models, develop lamps, etc.; I need specialists who understandthese techniques. Thats why I have a main team of seven people among them, an

architect, a stress analyst, workshop manager, the office. Myself, Id rather not have

anything to do with logistics and the office. So that theres more time for the art, you

could say. Since my works have to be integrated into the spaces where theyre exhibited,

itd be difficult to delegate this logistical work to a gallerist. Other artists do, but for me,

thats just not possible. Ive taken on the execution myself, but at the same time, Ive

hired the appropriate people for that as well. So, in the end, there are ten people working

for me. The number varies, of course, with how much work I get.

Do your means of working imply a further development of the role of the artist?

What you actually do is deliver the raw idea to the workshop.

This principle isnt new; you can find it with the Minimalists, with the ready-made artists

and, of course, in Pop Art. In my case, its obvious that a lot of people are working on my

art, but I think its often the case. In Germany, theres a definite interest in a subjective

art. Its an artistic direction in which work of very high quality is being produced here as

well. Maybe thats why this idea that the artist has to be a great creator and alone is so

dominant in Germany.


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A genius.

Yes, a genius. I dont have a problem with that. The concept of a genius doesnt represent

a polar opposite to mine. Its just something different. The field of art seen spatially is

so unbelievably far and wide its like talking about food: the butcher is not the

opposite of a baker, or the other way around. But since there are more artists in Germany

who go for this genius concept, my means of working seems to be the exception. But Idont know if an artist like Andreas Gursky doesnt also work with assistants.

Photography is a special case; the process is carried out by machines.

Even so, I dont have the feeling that my means of working are special or different. It

remains me who presents the problem and makes the decisions. And I have to say very

clearly that my studio is neither a co-op nor a collective. Its very clear that my assistants

have been hired by me to perform their services for me. From the very beginning, Ive

been interested in the tradition of working with space. So I was lucky to find a

mathematician in Einar Thorsteinn who had studied as an architect with Frei Otto. In the

60s, he took part in the work on the Olympic Stadium in Munich. In the 70s, he met

Buckminster Fuller and he knows about crystallography. I was very taken up with all that

at the time as well: Frei Otto, the utopias. In the early 90s, I was very interested in

Buckminster Fuller and, at the time, wanted to build a geodesic structure, but couldnt. I

looked around and met Einar Thorsteinn. He drew a sketch for me and we started

working together. He was living in Iceland and was out of work. In 1997, he married a

German woman and moved to Berlin. Ive had him working in my studio ever since. Hes

able to conceptualize a multi-dimensional space and create a model of it. Its about

understanding the existing space in some way so that we can understand that it exists not

on a foundation of truths but on a foundation of ideologies and construction. I see the

spaces that I create as a discussion of previously existing spatial principles. These

discussions take place between a person, the user, and an open space. Without the user,all thats there is material and no space. Im not presenting any sort of utopias, but

rather, simply the possibility of how the space in front of my nose might be seen

differently.

How do you get your ideas across to your assistants?

Before I build a model in my studio, or have one built, I enter into some form of dialogue

with the exhibition location. An architectural model is created. Research is begun. In the

process of these considerations, the ideas and the problems arise and the models come out

of that. Then, for the project, I look for various solutions. In principle, this is completely

classical. A presentation on location follows. I present three or four proposals. Further

development of the project then takes place in a dialogue with the appropriate people at

the location. Sometimes we also work on projects that arent commissioned; on principle

things. For example, I had a series of experiments here about the blind spot in the

human eye to see if we might be able to make a small work that Id installed on the

dining table disappear from a particular angle. It worked, and thats where the idea

came from for an exhibit organized such that, during its course, all the works would

appear from the blind spot in the users eyes but what came out of it was that the


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consciousness of what is in a room is not regulated by eyesight alone. Even if you cant

actually see the work, you nevertheless think youve seen it. These are the kinds of little

experiments I perform. I came up with the ideas for these principle experiments while out

walking: How long is a kilometer? How fast am I walking? How long does an hour last?

The ways I estimated all this turned out to be entirely different on the first day of my

walking than on the third day or after a week. To ask how big a car is or how small; howwe place our bodies in relation to the things in a room and so on. From this came my

discussion of what a subject is and what an object is. And does a subject, in the classical

sense allow itself to be defined with an object as a single unit and to be viewed as a

productive experience? At the same time, this productivity in its functional sense always

means a juxtaposition between two separate entities, and accordingly, the folding of both

entities into each other would be an unproductive relationship. Seen

phenomenologically, the subject does not produce the object exclusively the chair is

still in the room when we arent present. But the chair is not existent when the subject is

out of the world. We are, so to say, empty. There is no truth in the chair in the sense

of the spirit is in the wood. At the same time, there is no ideology in us, primarily. But

through the confrontation with the chair, unbelievably interesting thought processes arise

during which the chair, as well as I myself, are constantly undergoing changes. This

happens over time. Not in time as if time were a shell. Here, one has to recognize time

as a constant dimension. Without being mystical about it time as sequence. In this way,

the work on my models is also a sequence and the project, after its completed, is a

model, albeit seen in a different spatial context.

In your exhibitions, Ive had the experience of seeing users more intensively engaged

with the works than with, for example, paintings. The phenomenal aspects that your

works call up seem almost genial. An important reason for this seems to me to be

that the works themselves have been created with an overt neutrality. There is nopersonal signature of any kind from the artist. In this way, they have the effect of

purposelessness, like found objects. The exhibit itself, then, becomes a natural

experience.

I have very little interest in the surfaces of the materials. My works are, for the most part,

off the shelf material from the hardware store; its all made very simply. I think its

important that the works are made technically well, that the construction is stable and

wont fall apart. The aesthetic considerations of whether a surface should be smooth,

colorful, or matte are not interesting to me. The relationship that arises between the users

of my works and the object thats what its about for me, and nothing else. I dont havethe normal sculptural problems wrestling with expression and so on. I find myself

essentially uninteresting. I dont have anything to say, either. Thats also why I try to

avoid any emphasis of my Nordic background, to stay away from the possibility that the

user might find a reason in it for my making this art or why the art is what it is.

Which would lead to the influence of elves and Skaldenmet.

Not that I dont find the history of the Nordic peoples interesting, but it would more than


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likely have a negative effect on the contextualization of my art. For me, its more of an

ethical question with which Id direct the discussion: Which spatial conditions have a

normative effect? And how can I avoid them so that a new experience can be made

possible? An individualizing experience? Something that happens only within each of the

users? And in all this, whats most important to me is to clearly show that what were

dealing with here is a construction and not truth. In order not to repeat the mistakes themoderinsts made. How I can keep my art from allowing an aesthetic system to take form

ultimately, thats whats most important to me. Thats why I cant, as a person, be too

much in the foreground. I have to keep everything open to the point that, in the end, there

would even be the danger that my art would be judged by no means as art, but as design,

at the most because it all appears as if it were made by no one particularly special. My

works are machines that create phenomena. The ethical problem presented here is that I

should play no role in the relationship between the users and the machines.

Is your art, because of its invasive character, not nevertheless more authoritarian

than, lets say, a typical sculpture? It primarily uses the structures of human

perception in order to have the users of your work see what you want the works

have them see.

You could put it that way. But I would also say that, in principle, our world consists of

nothing. That every perception of space, or even just light, comes about on the basis of a

cultural or ideological supposition. Now, there is, of course, the tendency to see the

environment as natural or as a given. But that is an understanding of things based on

culturally-, religiously-, and ideologically-formed structures. The danger I see in that is

the opportunity for the exercise of power over people made possible precisely through

this relationship with the world which, in a strictly scientific sense, is mistaken. For

example, the light in the room of a museum is not white. But it appears to us not only as

just that white but also, on top of that, as natural light for the environment of a roomin a museum. But what we think of as white light would be deemed yellowish in another

cultural environment. Museum light is also not sunlight; that is, by no means is it natural.

By bringing the construction of their eyesight to the eyes of the users of my spaces, I also

hope to be prodding them to think about what the constructs of everything else might be

made of the room, the museum itself, etc. As far as Im concerned, then, Im first

creating an experience. But above all, Im prompting awareness. So I create semi-

totalitarian structures, if youd like.

Is it problematic if you see the ways in which your art is experienced when, for

example, the users of the Weather Project at the Tate Gallery lay down on the floorto experience your artificial sunshine?

Oh, Im basically open to everything. Even though I do find it increasingly problematic

that museums encourage the commercialization of our ability to experience. I think its

questionable that the potential for spectacle in an exhibit is being considered more and

more, that is, what the works can do with the users rather than the works themselves.

I find yourRoom for One Color particularly fortuitous: A room lit with an intensive


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yellow in which one seems to lose ones sense of color. You find yourself in a black-

and-white photograph you can walk around in.

These yellow mono-frequency lamps are a very efficient means of lighting with a

minimal amount of electricity. Theyre used for lighting highway tunnels or as

emergency lights on ferries. The lamps beam light of an almost single frequency the

UV range is very narrow. The number of yellow receptors in our eyes retinas is large.Thats why the transmission of the color yellow to our brains is particularly good. We see

best with yellow lighting. And worst with blue lighting. With this mono-frequency

lighting from these lamps, all other colors but yellow are removed. But since our brains

nevertheless know that, for example, blue jeans must be blue, they try to send messages

back to the eye that it should be picking up something blue. The effects that result are

interesting since we try in this light to project the seemingly missing color onto the

material of the jeans simply due to our experience that such pants need to be blue. I like

to show such a room lit with a mono-frequency at the beginning of an exhibition in order

to lead users to the principles of construction of their eyesight.

This experience of losing colors arouses a certain fear in users.

But one also sees better. More can be made out in a black-and-white photograph than in a

color photo. The eye is far more able to separate values of grey than levels of color.

Thats why a photograph by Ansel Adams seems more focused than a color photo of the

same subject ever could. Thats what I also like about theRoom for One Color: That, as a

user, youre given this sort of hyper-vision from a distance of twenty meters, you can

make out a liver spot; everything is immediately recognizable. Since colors are also

carriers of information across the dimensions of a room, people positioned far away in a

room lit with mono-frequency lamps seem flatter than usual, almost two-dimensional.

Are these not experiences that are particularly attractive for urbanites, like peoplewho rarely leave their cities, and so, are all but unable to have any natural

experiences?

My experience is that people who spend nearly all their time in nature also value my

work. I think one has to be careful that one doesnt more or less consciously create a sort

of hierarchy of which spatial conditions are better for people and which arent. I would

not say that we could step out into nature. Approaching nature is a form of dialogue

which leads, with my participation, to an image of landscape. Relationships and

experiences and events can take place there that wouldnt be possible in a city. Even so, I

think you can grow up in and move around in a city and still be a good person. Id

rather be careful, particularly because of this long tradition of thinking, Nature has theanswer and all that. But the problem only arises when the city tries to become nature.

The modern shopping center, an extremity of the city, usually tries to present itself as

nature. Such a shopping center becomes more attractive the less it appears to be a

shopping center. But that doesnt make nature better. Nature simply does nothing and the

city makes a mistake.i


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bessing, joachim

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