fake whistleblower robert maclean - fired air marshal - sworn deposition - august 2, 2006

8/6/2019 Fake Whistleblower Robert MacLean - Fired Air Marshal - Sworn Deposition - August 2, 2006

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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

MERIT SYSTEMS PROTECTION BOARD

WESTERN REGIONAL OFFICE

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x

ROBERT J . MACLEAN,

A p p e l l a n t ,11

Docke t No .

v. S F - 0 7 S 2 - 0 6 - 0 6 11 - I - l

DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY

TRANSPORTATION SECURITY

ADMINISTRATION,

Agency,

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x

I r v i n e , C a l i f o r n i a

Wednesday, Augus t 2 , 2006

D e p o s i t i o n o f

ROBERT J . MacLEAN

a w i t n e s s o f l awfu l a g e , t a ke n on b e h a l f o f t h e

Depar tment o f Homeland S e c u r i t y i n t h e a b o v e - e n t i t l e d

a c t i o n , a t 2 Wr i g l e y, F i r s t F loo r, I r v i n e , C a l i f o r n i a ,

b e f o r e P a u l e t t e Vanton , CSR No . 6962 , C e r t i f i e d

S h o r t h a n d R e p o r t e r i n and f o r t h e S t a t e o f C a l i f o r n i a ,

commencing a t 9 : 3 4 a .m.



APPEARANCES:

On b e h a l f o f t h e U.S. Depar tment o f Homeland S e c u r i t y :

EILEEN DIZON CALAGUAS, ESQ.

T r a n s p o r t a t i o n S e c u r i t y A d m i n i s t r a t i o n

1001 B a y h i l l D r i v e , 2nd F l o o r

San Bruno , C a l i f o r n i a 94066

(650) 616-4113

On b e h a l f o f t h e Wi t n e s s :

PETER H. NOONE, ESQ.

La w O f f i c e s o f Avery, Dooley, P o s t & Avery :

90 Concord Avenue

Belmont , M a s s a c h u s e t t s 02478

(617) 489-5300



1 Job Announcement 25

2 Cond i t i on f o r Employment 32

3 Excerpt S e c t i o n 1.112 Pages 23 to 25 36

4 11-13-02 In t e r im SSI 61

5 10-8-03 In t e r im SS I 62

6Performance Agreement and Assessment

65

7 Performance Agreement and Assessment 66

8 Performance Agreement and Assessment 67

9 Tr a n s c r i p t of In t e rv iew wi th ICE/OPR 11 1

10 A f f i d a v i t 11 3



1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MS. CALAGUAS: We a r e on th e reco rd a t 9:34

3 a .m. on Augus t 2, 2006 i n Lo s Angeles , C a l i f o r n i a .

4 Would t h e w i t n e s s p l e a s e r a i s e h i s r i g h t hand

5 t o t ake an oa th?

6 Whereupon,

7 ROBERT J . MacLEAN,

8 wa s c a l l e d as a w i t n e s s and , h av ing been f i r s t

9 du ly sworn, wa s examined and t e s t i f i e d as fo l l ows :

10 EXAMINATION

11 BY MS. CALAGUAS:

12 Q Good morning . I s i t MacLean? I s t h a t how you

13 pronounce you r name?

14 A MacLean.

15 Q I ' m E i l e e n Calaguas , I ' m t h e agency

16 r e p r e s e n t a t i v e f o r TSA.

17 We a r e he re i n the MSPB proceed ing , Docket No.

18 SF0752060611- I1 , and you a r e the a p p e l l a n t i n t h a t

19 proceed ing , c o r r e c t ?

20 A C o r r e c t .

21 Q Have you had you r d e p o s i t i o n t aken b e f o r e i n

22 any t ype of p roceed in g?



1 A Yes .

2 Q So, j u s t a c o u p l e o f ground r u l e s b e f o r e we

3 g e t s t a r t e d on t h e q u e s t i o n i n g .

4 I t ' s i m p o r t a n t t h a t you l e t me f i n i s h my

5 q u e s t i o n f i r s t an d t h e n answer. I t makes i t v e r y

6 d i f f i c u l t f o r t h e c o u r t r e p o r t e r t o t a k e down w h a t ' s

7 b e i n g s a i d when we t a l k o v e r e a c h o t h e r . L i k e w i s e ,

8 I ' l l do t h e same and t r y t o n o t t o i n t e r r u p t yo u when

9 you a n s w e r my q u e s t i o n s .

10 A U n d e r s t o o d .

11 Q I s t h e r e a n y t h i n g t o d a y t h a t would p r e v e n t you

12 f rom g i v i n g h o n e s t t e s t i m o n y ?

13 A No, u n l e s s my a t t o r n e y o b j e c t s .

14 Q I s t h e r e a n y t h i n g t o d a y t h a t would p r e v e n t you

15 f rom g i v i n g a c c u r a t e t e s t i m o n y ?

16 A No .

17 MR . NOONE: You mean, m e d i c a t i o n o r a n y t h i n g

18 l i k e t h a t ? I s t h a t what y o u ' r e t a l k i n g a b o u t ?

19 MS. CALAGUAS: Yes.

20 MR . NOONE: T h a t ' s what s h e ' s g e t t i n g a t .

21 THE WITNESS: I h a v e a p r o b l e m . I m i g h t b e

22 r u n n i n g t o t h e ba throom b a c k a n d f o r t h . I h a v e a



1 l i t t l e bug i n me o r someth ing , so I ' l l excuse my se l f

2 when I need t o .

3 BY MS. CALAGUAS:

4 Q L e t me know when you need t o t ake a b r e a k and

5 we can make a no te o f t h a t f o r t he r eco rd .

6 A I 'm unde r no medica t i on .

7 Q Good. I f you d o n ' t unde r s t and a q u e s t i o n t h a t

8 I 'm ask ing you , p l e a s e l e t me know t h a t . Oth e rwi s e ,

9 I 'm go ing t o assume t h a t you unde r s t and my q u e s t i o n

10 when yo u beg in you r answer.

11 Do you unde r s t and t h a t ?

12 A Unders tood.

13 Q Also , i t may be i n t h i s d e p o s i t i o n t h a t t h e r e

14 ma y be a need t o d i s c u s s s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y

15 i n fo rma t ion .

16 I f t h e r e i s a wa y t h a t you can r e spond t o a

17 q u e s t i o n wi thou t h av ing t o d ivu lge any s e n s i t i v e

18 s e c u r i t y i n fo rma t ion , I ask t h a t yo u l e t me know t h a t

19 t o answer a q u e s t i o n you may need t o d ivu lge s e n s i t i v e

20 s e c u r i t y i n fo rma t ion , and t hen I ' d l i k e you t o go ahead

21 and t r y t o answer t h a t q u e s t i o n wi thou t d i v u l g i n g t h a t

22 s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n fo rma t ion .



1 Do y ou u n d e r s t a n d t h a t ques t i on?

2 A Not r e a l l y .

3 Doyo u want t o jump i n h e r e , P e t e? I 'm

4 supposed t o p o l i c e m y s e l f now?

5 MR. NOONE: E i l e e n , what y o u ' r e l ook ing f o r ,

6 if he t h i n k s t h a t one o f t h e q u e s t i o n s t h a t you 've

7 a sked i s go ing t o i l l i c i t a r e spon se t h a t r e q u i r e s him

8 t o s ay someth ing o f a s e n s i t i v e n a t u r e , y o u w a n t him t o

9 t r y t o a l e r t y ou t o t h a t ?


11 MR. NOONE: Secondly, t r y t o a n s w e r t h e

12 q u e s t i o n w i t h o u t r e l e a s i n g t h e s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y

13 i n f o r m a t i o n .

14 MS. CALAGUAS: Yes . But a l e r t me f i r s t , an d

15 maybe we c a n h a v e t h e q u e s t i o n r e p h r a s e d o r I ca n g ive

16 you f u r t h e r i n s t r u c t i o n s a t t h a t t im e .

17 MR. NOONE: J u s t so I am c l e a r , I w i l l a l s o

18 o b j e c t t o any o f t hose q u e s t i o n s , j u s t t o p r e s e r v e th e

19 r i g h t t o o b j e c t a t t h e t ime o f h e a r i n g and j u s t t o l e t

20 i t b e known t h a t h e ' s a n s w e r i n g t h e q u e s t i o n s t o

21 c o o p e r a t e w i t h yo u i n t h e f u r t h e r a n c e o f a n s w e r i n g t h e

22 q u e s t i o n s .



1 MS. CALAGUAS: T h a t ' s f i n e .

2 I t ma y b e t h a t if t h a t t y p e o f d i s c u s s i o n i s

3 needed t o b e h ad on t h e r e c o r d , w e ' l l s e t up a s e p a r a t e

4 p rocedu re w h e r e we h a v e tw o d i f f e r e n t v e r s i o n s o f t h e

5 t r a n s c r i p t , one , t h a t c o n t a i n s t h e s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y

6 i n f o r m a t i o n and one t h a t d o e s n ' t .

7 MR. NOONE: Maybe can we go o f f r e c o r d f o r a

8 s e c o n d ?

9 MS. CALAGUAS: S u r e , l e t ' s go o f f r e c o r d .

10 Thank y o u .

11 { D i s c u s s i o n was h e l d o f f t h e r e c o r d . }

12 MS. CALAGUAS: The p a r t i e s h a v e h a d some I:

13 o f f - r e c o r d d i s c u s s i o n s a n d h a v e r e a c h e d a s t i p u l a t i o n

14 a s t o t h e h a n d l i n g o f t h e t r a n s c r i p t s i n t h i s

15 p r o c e e d i n g .

16 S h o u l d t h e t r a n s c r i p t s c o n t a i n s e n s i t i v e

17 s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n , t h e p a r t i e s have a g r e e d - - an d

18 p l e a s e c o r r e c t me, Mr. Noone, i f I g e t t h i s

19 i n c o r r e c t - - t h e p a r t i e s h a v e a g r e e d t o h a v e t h e

20 t r a n s c r i p t s s e a l e d , an d t h e agency w i l l t a k e

21 r e s p o n s i b i l i t y i n l a b e l i n g t h e t r a n s c r i p t s a s n e c e s s a r yI

22 t o p r o t e c t s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n .



1 In s e a l i n g t h e t r a n s c r i p t s , t h e p a r t i e s have

2 a l s o ag reed n o t t o d i s c l o s e t h e t r a n s c r i p t ' s c o n t e n t t o

3 anyone o u t s i d e o f t h i s p roc ee d in g an d i t w i l l b e used

4 o n l y f o r t h e s o l e pu rp os e s o f t h i s p r o c e e d i n g .

5 MR. NOONE: I a g r e e t o t h a t .

6 MS. CALAGUAS: Okay. Thank you .

7 Q Do yo u unde r s t and t h e oa th t h a t yo u t oo k p r i o r

8 t o t h e s t a r t o f t h i s d e p o s i t i o n ?

9 A Yes .

10 Q Where do yo u c u r r e n t l y l i v e , Mr . MacClean?

11 A 11 K n o t t y Oak C i r c l e , t h r e e words , Coto de

12 Caza , t h e C i t y , t h a t ' s a l s o t h r e e words , s p e l l e d

13 C - o - t - o , n e x t word, d - e , t h i r d wo rd ' s C - a - z - a ,

14 C a l i f o r n i a , Z ip Code 94679 .

15 Q At t h e conc lus ion o f t h i s d e p o s i t i o n ,

16 t r a n s c r i p t s w i l l be p r e p a r e d an d y o u ' l l have an

17 o p p o r t u n i t y t o rev iew t h o s e t r a n s c r i p t s . I t w i l l

18 e i t h e r b e s e n t t o you r home o r be s e n t t o yo u t h rough

19 y o u r a t t o r n e y .

20 I n r ev i ew ing t hose t r a n s c r i p t s , if you make

21 any changes t o you r t e s t imony, do you unde r s t and t h a t I

22 have t h e r i g h t t o comment on any changes yo u make a t



1 h e a r i n g ?

2 A Yes , I u n d e r s t a n d .

3 Q Are you c u r r e n t l y employed , Mr . MacLean?

4 A I am c u r r e n t l y r e c e i v i n g a f e e f o r a c t i n g a s

5 C o n s e r v a t o r f o r t h e e s t a t e o f my m o t h e r. I t ' s a - - t h e

6 c o u r t o f S a n t a C l a r a County, C a l i f o r n i a a p p o i n t e d me

7 t h e l e g a l C o n s e r v a t o r f o r my mother i n 1 9 9 3 , a n d I

8 r e c e i v e a m o n t h l y fe e t h a t wa s d i r e c t e d b y t h e C o u r t .

9 T h a t i s t h e o n l y income t h a t I r e c e i v e r i g h t now.

10 Q Was t h a t a so u r ce o f income, t h e n , t h a t yo u

11 r e c e i v e d s i n c e 1993?

12 A Yes .

13 Q So, t h i s income from t h e c o n s e r v a t o r s h i p was

14 i n a d d i t i o n t o an y s a l a r y income t h a t y ou r e c e i v e d

15 w h i l e w o r k i n g f o r TSA?

16 A Yes .

17 Q A s i d e f rom t h a t , do you h a v e an y o t h e r s o u r c e s

18 o f income c u r r e n t l y ?

19 A No .

20 Q A f t e r l e a v i n g TSA, d i d you s e c u r e employment

21 anywhere e l s e ?

22 A No .



Page 1 1

1 Q What have you done t o t r y t o secu re

2 employment , i f any th ing?

3 A I have n o t been ab le t o s ecu re employment. I

4 have been working f u l l - t i m e on my Appeals i n r e g a r d s t o

5 t h i s MSPB h e a r i n g .

6 I have had t o r e l o c a t e my fami ly from Las

7 Vegas, Nevada t o my ne w a d d r e s s due t o t h e a c t i o n s t h a t

8 a re be ing a l l e g e d i n t h i s i s s u e .

9 Q When d id you say - - maybe you d i d n ' t say, b u t

10 when d i d you r e l o c a t e your f a mi ly from Las Vegas?

11 A I r e l o c a t e d app rox ima te ly November o f 2005.

12 That wa s my whole f ami ly.

13 My t r a n s f e r , my p r o f e s s i o n a l t r a n s f e r from t h e

14 Las Vegas f i e l d o f f i c e t o th e Lo s Angeles f i e l d o f f i c e

15 was approved i n November o f ' 04 .

16 U n t i l I s o l d my house i n th e Las Vegas a r e a , I

17 cou ld n o t move a l l my h ou seho l d goods and my f ami ly t o

18 C a l i f o r n i a .

19 Q Sor ry, d i d you say November of '04?

20 A I b e l i e v e i t wa s e i t h e r October of '0 4 o r

21 November o f ' 04 . I 'm no t su re when t h e a c t u a l t r a n s f e r !

22 was. I t shou ld say i n my SF50 when my t r a n s f e r wa s

.....



1 made from - - o f f i c i a l from Las Vegas t o Lo s Angeles i n

2 permanent .

3 I r e c e i v e d a t emporary a u t h o r i z a t i o n t o work

4 ou t o f th e Lo s Angeles o f f i c e t empora r i ly s e v e r a l

5 months p r i o r t o t h a t due t o my w i f e ' s g u s t a t i o n

6 d iabe tes and pregnancy compl i ca t ions .

7 Q But when you r e l o c a t e d your fami ly, t h a t was

8 i n November of 'OS, t h e fo l lowing y e a r a f t e r you

9 t e m p o r a r i l y t r a n s f e r r e d your ass ignment from Vegas to

10 Lo s Angeles ; i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?

11 A T h a t ' s when a l l of my household - - when my

12 house was f i n a l l y s o l d and I was a b l e t o move my

13 household goods and eve ry th ing e l s e .

14 In the t ime between, t h e r e wa s temporary t imes

15 where t hey had t o s t a y he re i n C a l i f o r n i a o r they cou ld

16 s t a y i n La s Vegas.

17 But due to th e move and t r y i n g t o s e l l t h e

18 house , t h e family had t o move back and f o r t h .

19 I 'm l i v i n g r i g h t now wi th my mother, and

20 t h a t ' s why t hey would t empora r i ly s t a y t h e r e . I t wa s a

21 back and f o r t h a c t i o n t h a t happened t h roughou t t h e

22 t ime .



1 Q When yo u h ad r e q u e s t e d t o t r a n s f e r f rom Las

2 Vegas t o Los A n g e l e s , d id you a l r e a d y have t h e i n t e n t

3t o r e l o c a t e you r f a m i l y ?

4 A Permanent ly?

5 Q Yes, pe r manen t l y.

6 A Yes.

7 Q So, s i n c e t h e t ime t h a t you were removed from

8 TSA t o t h e p r e s e n t , yo u have made no i n q u i r e s f o r work?

9 A I ' v e made i n q u i r e s .

10 Q Ca n you d e s c r i b e t h o s e i n q u i r e s t o me?

11 A I submi t t ed a - - I have an o n - l i n e resume.

12 Q Ca n you i d e n t i f y f o r me which p e r s p e c t i v e

13 e m p l o y e r s you submi t t h e i n q u i r e s to ?

14 A No, I j u s t have my resume o n - l i n e .

15 I d i d s u b m i t resumes o n - l i n e t o - - f o r

16 s e c u r i t y employment . One o f them c a l l e d me b a c k f o r an

17 i n t e r v i e w, an d t h a t employer was JC Penny ' s .

18 Q D id y ou r e c e i v e an o f f e r o f employment from JC

19 P enny ' s ?

20 A No, I d id n o t .

21 Q Do you r e c a l l when y o u r i n t e r v i e w wa s w i t h JC

22 P enny ' s ?



1 A On o r a r o u n d December o f 2005 .

2 Q So, t h a t wa s w h i l e you were s t i l l employed

3 w i t h TSA b u t on admin l e ave ?

4 A C o r r e c t .

5 Q An y o t h e r j o b i n t e r v i e w s ?

6 A No .

7 Q When yo u s ay t h a t y o u r resume wa s o n - l i n e ,

8 does t h a t mean t h a t you h ad i t p o s t e d on some s o r t o f

9 j o b s i t e ?

10 A Yeah, i t wa s m o n s t e r. com.

11 Q Okay, I u n d e r s t a n d . Thank y o u .

12 Since l e a v i n g TSA's employment , d i d yo u

13 r e c e i v e an y D i s a b i l i t y b e n e f i t s ?

14 A No .

15 Q An y Workers ' Compensa t ion b e n e f i t s ?

16 A No . The o n l y t ime I r e c e i v e d a D i s a b i l i t y wa sI

17 a t t h e J u l y ~A u g u s t o f 2004 . I 'm s o r r y , 2005 . An d

18 t h a t would be Workers ' Compensa t ion b e n e f i t s , c o r r e c t .

19 Q T h a t wa s f o r a h i p i n j u r y o f some s o r t ?

i,20 A Yes.

21 Q Do y ou know t h e n a t u r e o f t h e b e n e f i t s ?

22 A I d o n ' t u n d e r s t a n d .



1 Q Do you know w he the r o r no t th e b e n e f i t s were

2 c o n t i n u a t i o n o f pay b e n e f i t s ?

3 A I r e c e i v e d c o n t i n u a t i o n o f pay from t h e

4 agency, and I r e c e i v e d Workers ' Compensation from t h e

5 Depar tment of Labor.

6 Q So , th e Department o f Labor accep ted your

7 c l a im f o r t h e Workers ' Compensat ion i n j u r y, c o r r e c t ?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Did you r ecove r from t h a t i n j u r y ?

10 A Yes.

11 Q When?

12 A I t was i n September of 2005.

13MR. NOONE:

E i l e e n , n o t t o i n t e r r u p t , b u t I

14 j u s t wanted t o b r i n g t h i s up t o you. I meant t o b r i n g

15 i t up b e f o r e t h e d e p o s i t i o n .

16 We're going t o withdraw t h e D i s a b i l i t y

17 d i s c r i m i n a t i o n from t h e de fense .

18 So, i f t h a t sho"r tcu ts any of y ou r q u e s t i o n i n g ,

19 you a r e more t han welcome t o ask any q u e s t i o n s t h a t you

20 want , bu t w e ' r e fo rma l ly withdrawing th e a f f i r m a t i v e

21 de fense d i s a b i l i t y d i s c r i m i n a t i o n . ,

22 MS. CALAGUAS: Thank you f o r t h a t



1 c l a r i f i c a t i o n .

2 Ca n we go o f f r eco rd f o r a second?

3 (A b r e a k wa s t aken . )

4 MS. CALAGUAS: Back on th e r e c o r d .

5 During t h e break , th e p a r t i e s have had

6 d i s c u s s i o n as t o t h e s t a t u s o f Mr. MacLean's pending

7 b u t s e p a r a t e EEO compla in t , and Mr. MacLean has

8 i n d i c a t e d t h a t he wi sh es to withdraw t h a t EEO compla in t

9 a t wha teve r s t a g e i t may be .

10 Q I s t h a t c o r r e c t , Mr. MacLean?

11 A That i s c o r r e c t . I w i l l o f f i c i a l l y withdraw

12 my EEO a c t i o n i n r ega rds t o my t emporary d i s a b i l i t y ,

13 and I w i l l o f f i c i a l l y withdraw i t from t h i s MSPB

14 proceed ing .

15 MR. NOONE: Th e a f f i r m a t i v e de fense o f

16 d i s a b i l i t y d i s c r i m i n a t i o n i s withdrawn from t h i s MSPB

17 c a s e .

18 BY MS. CALAGUAS:

19 Q And t h a t would be wi th p r e j u d i c e f o r bo th

20 wi thd rawa l s , c o r r e c t ?

21 MR. NOONE: Yes. What t h a t means i s , f o r e v e r

22 we w i l l be b a r r e d from r a i s i n g t h a t de fense on t h i s



1 a c t i o n , an d t h a t ' s c o r r e c t ?

2 THE WITNESS: T h a t ' s c o r r e c t .

3 MS. CALAGUAS: Thank you f o r t h a t

4 c l a r i f i c a t i o n .

5 Q S i n c e l e a v i n g TSA's employment , d i d you

6 r e c e i v e any Unemployment I n s u r a n c e b e n e f i t s ?

7 A No .

8 Q D id y ou s e e k Unemployment I n s u r a n c e b e n e f i t s ?

9 A No .

10 Q Why n o t ?

11 A I was l i v i n g w i t h my m o t h e r a n d c o l l e c t i n g a

12 s m a l l f e e f o r t h e c o n s e r v a t o r s h i p , a s I h a v e b e e n ,

13 s i n c e 1 9 9 3 . T h e r e f o r e , I d i d n o t b e l i e v e t h a t I was

14 e l i g i b l e f o r Unemployment b e n e f i t s .

15 Q I n r e a c h i n g t h a t b e l i e f , d i d you c o n s u l t w i t h

16 t h e Unemployment I n s u r a n c e agency?

17 A No , I d i d n o t .

18 Q D id yo u a s k an y q u e s t i o n s o f anyone w i t h

19 r e g a r d t o y o u r e l i g i b i l i t y f o r Unemployment I n s u r a n c e

20 b e n e f i t s ?

21 A Yes .

22 MR . NOONE: I 'm g o i n g t o i n s t r u c t yo u n o t t o



1 answer any q u e s t i o n s wi th r e s p e c t to any c o n v e r s a t i o n s

2 you had wi th any a t t o r n e y . Okay.

3 THE WITNESS: Okay, yes . In fo rma l

4 c o n v e r s a t i o n s I ' v e had, and I unde r s tood t h a t as l ong

5 as I was r e c e i v i n g any income, I cou ld n o t be e l i g i b l e

6 f o r unemployment b e n e f i t s .11

7 BY MS. CALAGUAS:

8 Q So t h a t I 'm c l e a r , I 'm no t a sk ing you a bo u t

9 th e c o n t e n t o f your c o n v e r s a t i o n s , b u t j u s t w he the r o r

10 no t you had any c o n v e r s a t i o n s , formal o r i n fo rma l , w i th

11 an a t t o r n e y abou t yo u r e l i g i b i l i t y f o r i n s u r a n c e

12 employment b e n e f i t s .

13 MR. NOONE: I 'm go in g t o o b j e c t s imply be cause

14 I want t o p r e s e r v e th e o b j e c t i o n .

15 But I a l s o t h i n k t h a t h i s answer t h a t he has

16 a l r e a d y g iven would d ivu lge any communicat ions t h a t he

17 may have had wi th an a t t o r n e y .

18 With t h e o b j e c t i o n no ted , yo u can answer th e

19 q u e s t i o n .

20 THE WITNESS: I d id no t c o l l e c t Unemployment

21 In su rance because I had formal and i n fo rma l

22 c o n v e r s a t i o n s , and I always b e l i e v e d t h a t I cou ld no t



P a g e 19 II

1 c o l l e c t Unemployment I n s u r a n c e b e c a u s e I am c u r r e n t l y

2 r e c e i v i n g an income where I am c l a i m i n g S o c i a l S e c u r i t y

3 and incomet a x e s

fromt h e c o n s e r v a t o r s h i p .

4 BY MS. CALAGUAS:

5 Q My q u e s t i o n i s , y e s o r n o , w h e t h e r o r n o t y o u r

6 in fo rma l an d formal c o n v e r s a t i o n s were w i t h an

7 a t t o r n e y ?

8 A No, t h e y were n o t .

9 Q Who d i d you have t h e s e c o n v e r s a t i o n s t hen

10 w i t h ?

11 A Othe r peop l e who have c o l l e c t e d Unemployment

12 b e n e f i t s .

13 Q You ment ioned S o c i a l S e c u r i t y b e n e f i t s . I s

14 t h a t a t y p e o f b e n e f i t t h a t you r e c e i v e d a f t e r l e a v i n g

15 TSA t o t h e p r e s e n t ?

16 A No . What I mean by t h a t wa s t h a t t h e income

17 t h a t I r e c e i v e from my m o t h e r ' s c o n s e r v a t o r s h i p i s

18 w i t h d r a w i n g S o c i a l S e c u r i t y - - I 'm t h e n o t s u r e o f t h e

19 e x a c t t e r m i n o l o g y, b u t S o c i a l S e c u r i t y, payments t o

20 SSI , I b e l i e v e i t i s , an d S t a t e Income Tax and F e d e r a l

21 Income Tax i s withdrawn.

22 T h a t ' s what I mean by t h a t answer.



1 Q Thank you .

2 A I have n o t r e c e i v e d any S o c i a l S e c u r i t y

3 b e n e f i t s .

4 Q Okay, t h a n k you f o r c l a r i f y i n g t h a t .

5 I n h a n d l i n g y o u r m o t h e r ' s c o n s e r v a t o r s h i p ,

6 d o e s t h a t make y ou u n a v a i l a b l e f o r employment?

7 A No , i t does n o t .

8 Q S i n c e l e a v i n g TSA's employment , a r e you

9 a v a i l a b l e f o r f u l l - t i m e employment?

10 A Yes, I am.

11 Q B e f o r e j o i n i n g TSA, where d i d you work?

12 A F or t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s B o r d e r P a t r o l .

13 Q What was y o u r p o s i t i o n t h e r e a t B o r d e r P a t r o l ?

14 A B o r d e r P a t r o l Agent .

15 Q How l o n g were you a B o r d e r P a t r o l Agent?

16 A S i n c e May 20 , o f 1996 .

17 Q While a B o r d e r P a t r o l Agent , were you

18 r e s p o n s i b l e f o r h a n d l i n g c o n f i d e n t i a l i n f o r m a t i o n ?

19 A Yes.

20 Q What t ype o f c o n f i d e n t i a l i n f o r m a t i o n d i d yo u

21 h a n d l e ?

22 MR. NOONE: I 'm j u s t g o i n g t o n o t e an

Ii11

I'

,



1 o b j e c t i o n and t hen you can answer.

2 MS. CALAGUAS: On what b a s i s ?

3 MR. NOONE: I t ' s o ve r b r oad .

4 MS. CALAGUAS: Okay.

5 MR. NOONE: I f you want t o t r y t o nar row i t

6 down o r j u s t make i t c l e a r what y o u ' r e a s k i n g . Over

7 h i s e n t i r e c a r e e r o r a t any p a r t i c u l a r t ime? T h a t ' s

8 a l l .

9 BY MS. CALAGUAS:

10 Q Over you r e n t i r e c a r e e r as a Border P a t r o l

11 Agent .

12 My unde r s t and ing i s , you worked t h e r e s i n c e

13 1996, c o r r e c t ?


15 Q So, s i n c e you s t a r t e d working a s a Border

16 P a t r o l Agent , what t y pe of c o n f i d e n t i a l i n fo rma t ion d i d

17 you hand l e?

18 A Per sona l i n fo rma t ion o f f e l l ow agen t s t h a t I

19 worked w i t h . A f f i d a v i t s , r e p o r t s o f i n v e s t i g a t i o n ,

20 p e r s o n a l d a t a o f c r i m i n a l and a d m i n i s t r a t i v e s u s p e c t s .

21 Q Anyth ing e l s e ?

22 A P r e t t y much any th ing t h a t a Bord e r P a t r o l



1 Agent hand le s i n t h e c o u r s e o f h i s d u t i e s . At t h i s

2 moment, I c a n ' t t h i n k o f a n y t h i n g e l s e .

3 I b e l i e v e I d i s c u s s e d most o fi t

i n g e n e r a l

4 t e rms .

5 Most o f t h e i n fo rma t ion t h a t I han d l ed wa s

6 p e r s o n a l d a t a . Sometimes t h e r e wa s c o n f i d e n t i a l

7 i n f o r m a t i o n i f t h e r e wa s a c r i m i n a l case i nvo lved where

8 I h ad t o t e s t i f y and any th ing - - I knew i n f o r m a t i o n

9 t h a t wa s t o a s s i s t i n a p r o s e c u t i o n o f a c r i m i n a l

10 s u s p e c t o r a w i t n e s s , a m a t e r i a l w i t n e s s i n t h a t c a s e .

11 T h a t ' s a l l I c a n t h i n k o f r i g h t now.

12 Q What were y ou r r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s w i t h r e s p e c t

13 t o h a n d l i n g t h e t y p e o f c o n f i d e n t i a l i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t

14 you j u s t d e s c r i b e d ?

15 A I ha d a mora l and l e g a l o b l i g a t i o n t o p r o t e c t

16 t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n .

17 Q What do y ou mean by p r o t e c t ?

18 A T h a t i t d i d n o t g e t i n t o t h e wrong h a n d s o f a

19 c r i m i n a l e l emen t .

20 MR. NOONE: E i l e e n , can I j u s t ask y ou t o make

21 s u r e t h a t w e ' r e on t h e same page on what y o u ' r e a s k i n g ?

i,22 You a sked abou t c o n f i d e n t i a l i n f o r m a t i o n .




2 MR. NOONE: Are you t a l k i n g - - I gue s s I want

3 t o h e a r what you r d e f i n i t i o n of c o n f i d e n t i a l

4 i n fo rma t ion i s based on and make su re t h a t h e ' s

5 answer ing th e same q u e s t i o n s .

6 I s i t l e g a l l y c o n f i d e n t i a l i n fo rma t ion , agency

7 d e s i g n a t e d c o n f i d e n t i a l i n fo rma t ion , i s i t c l a s s i f i e d

8 i n fo rma t ion?

9 I j u s t want to make su re t h a t h i s answers a re

10 r e spons ive t o what y o u ' r e t h i n k i n g .

11 BY MS. CALAGUAS:

12 Q D id you unde r s t and what I meant when I used

13 th e word " c o n f i d e n t i a l , " Mr. MacLean?

14 A My d e f i n i t i o n o f c o n f i d e n t i a l i n fo rma t ion i s

15 p e r s o n a l d a t a , i n fo rma t ion t h a t i f no t sa f egua rded

16 cou ld be d e t r i m e n t a l t o a c r i m i n a l p r o s e c u t i o n o r an

17 a d m i n i s t r a t i v e p r o s e c u t i o n , o r an a d m i n i s t r a t i v e

18 proceed ing .

19 Per sona l names, addres ses o f m a t e r i a l

20 w i t n e s s e s , c r i m i n a l s u s p e c t s , Fede ra l Agents , p u b l i c

21 m a t e r i a l w i t n e s s e s .

22 Q Using you r d e f i n i t i o n o f " c o n f i d e n t i a l

i

•

•

i

1

j



1 i n f o r m a t i o n , 11 ho w d id you make s u r e t h a t t h a t

2 c o n f i d e n t i a l i n f o r m a t i o n w h i l e w o r k i n g a t B o r d e r P a t r o l

3 d i d n ' t g e t i n t o t h e wrong h a n d s , a s yo u p r e v i o u s l y

4 t e s t i f i e d ?

5 A We l l , I n e v e r t o o k i n fo rma t ion w i t h me o u t s i d e

6 o f t h e s t a t i o n , and I n e v e r d i s c u s s e d c o n f i d e n t i a l

7 i n f o r m a t i o n w i t h anybody who d i d n ' t have a

8 n e e d - t o - k n o w.

9 Q So, when d i d you j o i n TSA?

10 A O c t o b e r 14 , 2001 . T h a t ' s n o t r i g h t .

11 I j o i n e d t h e F e d e r a l Avia t i on A d m i n i s t r a t i o n

12 i n O c t o b e r 14 th o f 2001 . I t wa s t u r n e d i n t o t h e TSA, I

13 b e l i e v e , s e v e r a l months l a t e r . A y e a r l a t e r , I

14 b e l i e v e , i t went t o I m m i g r a t i o n an d Customs

15 Enforcement , an d s e v e r a l months l a t e r , i t went b a c k t o

16 TSA.

17 Q Thank you f o r c l a r i f y i n g t h a t an d making t h a t

18 c o r r e c t i o n o f o u r h i s t o r y w i t h TSA.

19 D id you a p p l y t o any p a r t i c u l a r v a c a n c y

20 announcement w i t h t h e FAA i n g e t t i n g y o u r p o s i t i o n t h a t

21 e v e n t u a l l y came t o TSA?

22 A Yes. I r e s p o n d e d t o an announcement f o r a



1 C i v i l Av i a t i o n S e c u r i t y S p e c i a l i s t , p a r e n t h e s i s ,

2 F e d e r a l A ir M a r s h a l vacancy, t h a t wa s p u t ou t by t h e

3 F e d e r a l Av i a t i o n A d m i n i s t r a t i o n .

4 Q L et me have you t ake a l ook a t a document , an d

5 w e ' l l h a v e t h i s marked a s E x h i b i t 1 .

6 ( E x h i b i t 1 wa s marked by t h e

7 r e p o r t e r f o r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . )

8 BY MS. CALAGUAS:

9 Q Have you had a chance t o t a k e a l ook a t

10 E x h i b i t 1 , Mr . MacLean?

11 A Yes, I h a v e .

12 Q Do y ou r ecogn ize t he e x h i b i t ?

13 A Yes, I do .

14 Q What i s i t ?

15 A T h i s appe a r s t o be t h e announcement t h a t I

16 r e s p o n d e d t o an d f i l e d an a p p l i c a t i o n f o r .

17 Q D id you r ev i e w t h i s announcement a t t h e t i m e

18 t h a t you f i l e d y o u r a p p l i c a t i o n f o r t h i s p o s i t i o n ?

19 A Yes, I d i d .

20 Q Did you s e e , t h e n , on t h e f i r s t p a g e o f t h i s

21 announcement a t t h e bot tom o f t h e page t h a t , "The

22 r e l e a s e o f s e n s i t i v e o r c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n ma y b e



1 b a s i s f o r removal from t h e p o s i t i o n " ?

2 A Yes, I do.

3 MR. NOONE: I t h i n k t h e q u e s t i o n was, d id you

4 see i t ? I j u s t want t o make su re you unde r s tood t h e

5 q u e s t i o n .

6 THE WITNESS: Yes, I d i d r ead t h i s l i n e when I

7 a p p l i e d , and I se e i t r i g h t now i n f r o n t o f me.

8 BY MS. CALAGUAS:

9 Q D id you have any q u e s t i o n s abo u t t h a t l i n e

10 t h a t you r ead when app ly ing f o r t h i s p o s i t i o n ?

11 A S e n s i t i v e i n fo rma t ion i s a ne w t e rm f o r me.

12 I t wa s a ne w t e rm f o r me a t t h a t p o i n t .

13 Th e on ly t yp e of i n f o r m a t i o n - - t h e on ly type

14 of i n fo rma t ion t h a t I b e l i e v e d needed any t ype of

15 sa fegua rd ing wa s e i t h e r c o n f i d e n t i a l o r c l a s s i f i e d

16 i n fo rma t ion . C l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n , such as "Sec re t "1

17 o r "Top S e c r e t . "

18 S e n s i t i v e i n fo rma t ion wa s a ne w t e rm f o r me.

19 Q At some p o i n t , d id you have an unde r s t and ing

20 t h a t s e n s i t i v e i n fo rma t ion wa s a t ype o f c o n f i d e n t i a l

21 i n f o r m a t i o n ?




1 Q At any p o i n t ?

2 A A l l t h e t r a i n i n g an d d e f i n i t i o n s t h a t I

3 r e c e i v e d on what wa s s e n s i t i v e i n fo rma t ion wa s a t mos t

4 t imes c o n t r a d i c t o r y , c o n f u s i n g , and i t wa s a l w a y s , n o t

5 on ly w i t h myse l f b u t my p e e r s , wa s a con fus ing t e rm f o r

6 t h e s a f e g u a r d i n g o f i n f o r m a t i o n .

7 Q My q u e s t i o n s have t o do wi th y ou r

8 u n d e r s t a n d i n g , n o t y o u r p e e r s u n d e r s t a n d i n g . Okay, Mr .

9 MacLean?

10 L et me ask yo u f i r s t a b o u t t h e t r a i n i n g t h a t

11 you r e c e i v e d when becoming a C i v i l Av i a t i o n S e c u r i t y

12 S p e c i a l i s t , o t h e r w i s e known a s a F e d e r a l A i r Mar sha l .

13 What was y o u r i n i t i a l t r a i n i n g i n t o t h i s

14 p o s i t i o n ? L e t me be more s p e c i f i c .

15 Did you have a s e t number o f weeks f o r

16 t r a i n i n g i n t o a p p o i n t m e n t t o t h i s p o s i t i o n a s FAM,

17 F-A-M?

18 A To my knowledge , I b e l i e v e I d id r e c e i v e some:

19 o r a l t r a i n i n g a s t o what wa s s e n s i t i v e i n f o r m a t i o n , an d

20 I wa s a l s o g i v e n - - I wa s a l s o g i v e n a p a m p h l e t , I

21 s h o u l d sa y a d o c u m e n t a t i o n , on what wa s s e n s i t i v e

22 i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t I wa s t o r e a d .



1 MR. NOONE: I 'm j u s t g o i n g t o i n s t r u c t you t o

2 l i s t e n t o t h e q u e s t i o n , R o b e r t . I t h i n k h e r q u e s t i o n

3 wa s more g e n e r a l .

4 An d E i l e e n , c o r r e c t me i f I 'm wrong, I t h o u g h t

5 you were a s k i n g t r a i n i n g i n g e n e r a l when he wa s f i r s t

6 h i r e d by t h e FAMS, n o t j u s t t r a i n i n g s p e c i f i c a l l y on

7 any s e n s i t i v e o r c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n .

8 MS. CALAGUAS: Yes, t h a t i s my q u e s t i o n . I ' m

9 s o r r y if I con fused you , Mr . MacLean.

10 Q L e t ' s go back t o yo u r i n i t i a l g e n e r a l t r a i n i n g

11 as a FAM.

12 A Yes.

13 Q Did you t a k e t h a t 15-week academy, a s i t ' s

14 sometimes r e f e r r e d to ?

15 A I went t o an i n i t i a l - - I went t o a f i ve -w eek

16 academy from O c t o b e r t o m id November. I t wa s f o u r t o

17 f i v e weeks . I ' m n o t s u r e .

18 Q And t h a t would be O c t o b e r t o November o f 2001?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Th i s wa s t h e t r a i n i n g o u t i n New J e r s e y ,

21 c o r r e c t ?

22 A No. I t wa s b o t h i n New J e r s e y and i n A r t e g i a ,



1 New Mexico . Yes , I b e l i e v e I s p e n t tw o weeks i n

2 A r t e g i a , New Mexico .

3Q D u r i n g t h i s t r a i n i n g , was t h e r e an y d i s c u s s i o n

4 o f s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n ?

5 A To my knowledge , I do n o t remember.

6 Q At t h i s t r a i n i n g , d i d yo u h a v e a n y d i s c u s s i o n

7 a b o u t y o u r s c h e d u l e a s a F e d e r a l A i r M a r s h a l ?

8 A Yes .

9 Q What d i d t h a t t r a i n i n g c o n s i s t o f w i t h r e g a r d

10 t o y o u r s c h e d u l e a s a F e d e r a l A i r Marsha l?

11 A T h a t we were t o f l y f r e q u e n t l y, and t h a t we

12 would b e away f rom home f r e q u e n t l y.

13 Q D u r i n g t h i s f i v e - w e e k t r a i n i n g c o u r s e , d id you

14 l e a r n o f an y r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s t h a t you h a d w i t h r e s p e c t

15 t o y o u r s c h e d u l e a s a F e d e r a l A i r Marsha l?

16 A I do n o t remember b e i n g s p e c i f i c a l l y t r a i n e d

17 on what my r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s were a s f a r a s s c h e d u l i n g

i18 a s a F e d e r a l A i r M a r s h a l .

19 As a F e d e r a l Law E n f o r c e m e n t O f f i c e r an d a

20 m i l i t a r y member, I ' d a lways know what n e e d s t o b e

21 s a f e g u a r d e d and c o n s i d e r e d c o n f i d e n t i a l o r c l a s s i f i e d




1 Q From t h i s t r a i n i n g , d id you have an

2 u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t y o u r s che du l e a s a F e d e r a l A i r

3 Marsha l needed t o remain c o n f i d e n t i a l ?

4 A I do n o t remember an y s p e c i f i c t r a i n i n g , b u t I

5 am c o n f i d e n t t h a t i t wa s e xp ec t ed t o s a f e g u a r d

11

I

6 c o n f i d e n t i a l and c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n .

7 Q At some p o i n t , d id you have t h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g

8 t h a t y o u r s c h e d u l e a s a F e d e r a l A i r M a r s h a l was

9 c o n f i d e n t i a l ?

10 A I b e l i e v e d a s chedu l e o f a F e d e r a l A ir Marsha lI'

11 i s c o n s i d e r e d c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n .

12 Q Why do yo u t h i n k t h a t ?

13 A Because if a c r i m i n a l e l e m e n t , a ba d e l emen t ,

14 knows what a i r c r a f t I 'm going t o be on , o r knows where

15 I 'm s i t t i n g , o r knows where my p a r t n e r o r p a r t n e r s a r e

16 s i t t i n g on t h a t a i r c r a f t , t h a t i s c o n s i d e r e d c l a s s i f i e d


18 B e c a u s e if a bad i n d i v i d u a l knows my p o s i t i o n i

19 o r my p a r t n e r ' s p o s i t i o n on t h a t a i r c r a f t , I c a n b e

20 ambushed, overcome, have my weapon o r my p a r t n e r ' s

21 weapons t aken away f rom them, used a g a i n s t t h e o t h e r

22 A ir M a r s h a l s o r an y o t h e r law e n f o r c e m e n t o f f i c e r on



1 t h e a i r c r a f t ; h e n c e , t a k i n g c o n t r o l o f t h a t a i r c r a f t

2 and u s i n g t h a t a i r c r a f t a s a weapon o f mass d e s t r u c t i o n

3 o r k i l l i n g everybody on t h e a i r c r a f t .

4 T h e r e f o r e , I b e l i e v e any knowledge o f where my

5 p o s i t i o n o r my p a r t n e r ' s p o s i t i o n i s a n d w h a t a i r c r a f t

6 we a r e on i s c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n .

7 Q Based on you r unde r s t and ing t h a t y ou j u s t

8 d e s c r i b e d t h a t schedu le s i n a d d i t i o n t o where yo u r s e a t

9 a s s i g n m e n t ma y b e , f o r example, t h a t t h a t was

10 c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n and sh ou ld n o t b e s h a r e d w i t h

11 anyone t h a t does n o t have a n e e d - t o - k n o w ?


13 Q When would you s a y t h a t you f i r s t ha d t h i s

14 u n d e r s t a n d i n g ?

15 A Probab ly on t h e f i r s t week t h a t I t oo k t h i s

16 p o s i t i o n .

17 Q Would t h a t b e t h e f i r s t week o f t r a i n i n g o r

18 t h e f i r s t week when you a r e a c t u a l l y a s s i g n e d t o a i

19 f i e l d o f f i c e and d o i n g t h e job?

20 A T r a i n i n g .

21 Q So t h a t I 'm c l e a r , a f t e r you a c c e p t e d

22 employment a s a F e d e r a l A i r Marsha l , you f i r s t went t o



1 t r a i n i n g , c o r r e c t ?

2 A No. I f i r s t wa s a n o r i e n t a t i o n .

3Q An d t h e n a f t e r o r i e n t a t i o n ?

4 A An d t h e n i n - p r o c e s s i n g .

5 Q A f t e r o r i e n t a t i o n a n d i n - p r o c e s s i n g , t h e n y ou

6 h ad t h e f i v e - w e e k t r a i n i n g t h a t you j u s t d e s c r i b e d

7 e a r l i e r ?

8 A Yes .

9 Q An d t h e n a f t e r t h a t p o i n t , you were a s s i g n e d a

10 p a r t i c u l a r f i e l d o f f i c e , c o r r e c t ?


12 Q Where was y o u r o r i e n t a t i o n an d i n - p r o c e s s i n g ,

13 by t h e way?

14 A H a i g H a r b o r, New J e r s e y . An d t h i s was a t t h e

15 F e d e r a l Av i a t i o n A d m i n i s t r a t i o n Te c h n i c a l C e n t e r

16 l o c a t e d t h e r e .

17 Q D id t h a t t a k e a b o u t a d ay t o do t h e

18 o r i e n t a t i o n and i n - p r o c e s s i n g ?

19 A I do n o t r e c a l l .

20 Q L e t me show you what w e ' l l mark a s E x h i b i t 2 .

21 ( E x h i b i t 2 was marked b y t h e




1 BY MS. CALAGUAS:

2 Q Have yo u h ad a chance t o t a k e a l o o k a t

3 E x h i b i t 2 , Mr . MacLean?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Do y ou r e c o g n i z e t h e document?

6 A I ' v e s een i t b e f o r e . I acknowledge t h a t I

7 r e a d and s i g n e d t h i s document .

8 Q So, t h a t ' s y o u r s i g n a t u r e on t h e bot tom o f t h e

9 document?

10 A Yes .

11 Q A t t h e t i m e t h a t you s i g n e d t h i s document , d i d

12 you have any q u e s t i o n s a b o u t what you were s i g n i n g ?

13 A No , I d i d n o t .

14 Q So, y ou u n d e r s t o o d a t t h e t i m e t h a t yo u s i g n e d

15 t h i s document t h a t yo u ma y be removed from y o u r

16 p o s i t i o n a t FAM, f o r t h e u n a u t h o r i z e d r e l e a s e o f

17 s e c u r i t y s e n s i t i v e o r c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n , c o r r e c t ?

18 A S t i l l d i d n ' t u n d e r s t a n d t h e t e r m i n o l o g y o f

19 " s e c u r i t y s e n s i t i v e , " and I wanted t h e j o b .

20 I h a d j u s t r e s i g n e d my p o s i t i o n , so I ha d t o

21 s i g n t h i s document . I t was a c o n d i t i o n o f employment .

22 I d i d n o t know what s e c u r i t y s e n s i t i v e



1 i n f o r m a t i o n wa s t h e n , an d I s t i l l do n o t know t o i t

2 t h i s day. I have an i d e a what t h e agency would l i k e t o

3 c l a s s i f y a s s e c u r i t y s e n s i t i v e In fo rma t ion , b u t a t t h i s

4 p o i n t , I s t i l l do n o t have a d e f i n i t i o n o r an

5 u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f s e c u r i t y s e n s i t i v e i n f o r m a t i o n .

6 I f t h e r e i s a d e f i n i t i o n , and I t h i n k I ' v e

I

7 r e a d d e f i n i t i o n s o f i t, I s t i l l do n o t u n d e r s t a n d i t .

8 Q Bu t a t t h e t i m e t h a t you s i g n e d t h i s Cond i t i on

9 o f Employment form, y ou d i d n ' t ask any q u e s t i o n s a b o u t

10 any th ing on t h e form, c o r r e c t ?

11 A I do n o t r e c a l l a s k i n g any q u e s t i o n s .

12 Q W h a t ' s y o u r unde r s t and ing o f t h e hand l ing o f

13 c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n a t- -

14 MR. NOONE: Objec t i on . R e l e v a n c e .

15 You c a n a n s w e r.

16 THE WITNESS: I have been h a n d l i n g c l a s s i f i e d

17 i n f o r m a t i o n s i n c e 1989 , to p s e c r e t i n f o r m a t i o n .

18 I know t h a t i t must be s a f e g u a r d e d by a l l

19 means n e c e s s a r y.

20 BY MS. CALAGUAS: Ii

21 Q An d by s a f e g u a r d i n g c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n ,

22 would t h a t i n c l u d e n o t g i v i n g t h i s t o someone t h a t does



1 n o t have a n e e d - t o - k n o w ?

2 A U n l e s s t h e r e i s a law b e i n g v i o l a t e d and t h a t

3 t h e r e i s a d a n g e r t o t h e p u b l i c , o r if t h e r e i s an

4 a b u s e o f a u t h o r i t y .

5 Q So, you b e l i e v e t h e r e a r e e x c e p t i o n s t o t h e

6 s a f e g u a r d i n g o f c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n , c o r r e c t ?

7 MR. NOONE: O b j e c t i o n . R e l e v a n c e .

8 You c a n a n s w e r.

9 THE WITNESS: I n ex t reme c i r c u m s t a n c e s t o s a v e

10 l i v e s o r i f t h e r e i s a v i o l a t i o n o f l aw, t h e r e c o u l d be

11 an e x c e p t i o n . A n e x c e p t i o n must be c o n s i d e r e d on a

12 c a s e - b y - c a s e b a s i s .

13 BY MS. CALAGUAS:

14 Q On what b a s i s do you b e l i e v e t h a t t h e r e i s an

15 e x c e p t i o n t o t h e d i s c l o s u r e o f c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n

16 a s y o u ' v e d e s c r i b e d t h e e x c e p t i o n s ?

17 A Do you want me t o g ive you a s c e n a r i o ?

18 Q No , I ' d l i k e t o u n d e r s t a n d ho w y ou r e a c h e d

19 t h a t u n d e r s t a n d i n g .

20 Are you r e l y i n g , f o r example , on an y

21 p a r t i c u l a r document , p o l i c y , law?

22 A I t h i n k i t ' s p r e t t y much m o r a l o b l i g a t i o n s t o

:j

!



1 an o a t h t h a t you t a k e t o t h e peop l e t h a t y o u ' r e sworn

2 t o p r o t e c t .

3 Q L et me have yo u t ake a l o o k a t what w e ' l l mark

4 a s E x h i b i t 3.



7 BY MS. CALAGUAS:

8 Q Have y ou had a chance t o t ake a l ook a t

9 E x h i b i t 3?

10 A Yes, I ' v e g l a n c e d o v e r i t .

11 Q Do y ou r e c o g n i z e E x h i b i t 3?

12 A I r e c o g n i z e some o f t h e t e rmin o l ogy, b u t i n a

13 v e r b a t i m , I do n o t .

14 I f t h e r e t h i s wa s someth ing t h a t I had t o r e a d

15 and s i g n a s a c o n d i t i o n o f employment , t h a t ' s a good

16 p o s s i b i l i t y .

17 Q When you s a y t h a t you r ecogn ize some o f t h e

18 t e rmino logy, w h a t t e r m i n o l o g y do you r e c o g n i z e ?

19 A C l a s s i f i e d i n fo rma t ion p e r t a i n i n g t o m i s s i o n s ,

20 p roposed m i s s i o n s , o p e r a t i o n o r d e r s , t eam l e a d e r ,

21 c o n t i n g e n c y p l a n s , r u l e s o f engagement , c o u n t r y

22 c l e a r a n c e messages , j o i n t t r a i n i n g p l a n s an d l e s s o n



1 p l a n s .

2 I d o n ' t know what S a r a h - L i t e message i s .

3 Q An y o t h e r t e rmin o logy t h a t y ou r e c o g n i z e ?

4 A I s e e s e n s i t i v e i n f o r m a t i o n on a l m o s t e v e r y

5 p a g e .

6 Q I s h o u l d c l a r i f y f o r t h e r e c o r d t h a t t h e

7 document t h a t y o u ' r e l o o k i n g a t i s an e x c e r p t o f a

8 l a r g e r document i n t h a t t h i s i s S e c t i o n 1 . 11 2 , Pages 23

9 t o 2 5 .

10 MR. NOONE: Ca n I j u s t g e t you t o c l a r i f y ,

11 t h e r e i s n o t h i n g i n h e r e r e d a c t e d ? T h i s i s j u s t a

12 p o r t i o n f rom a l a r g e r document?

13 I s t h a t f a i r t o s a y ?

14 MS. CALAGUAS: Yes. There a r e no r e d a c t i o n s

15 w i t h i n t h i s c u r r e n t document t h a t ' s i d e n t i f i e d as

16 E x h i b i t 3 .

17 Q Were t h e r e an y o t h e r t e r m i n o l o g i e s t h a t yo u

18 r e c o g n i z e i n t h i s document?

19 A I ' l l t e l l you wha t I d o n ' t r e c o g n i z e . Would

20 t h a t b e s u f f i c i e n t ?

21 Q L e t me t r y a n o t h e r q u e s t i o n .

22 A S u r e . I t ' s p r e t t y l o n g . I ' l l go t h rou gh t h e 1



1 whole t h i n g , if y o u ' d l i k e .

2 Q We l l , I would l i k e you t o make s u r e t h a t

3 you 've r e v i e w e d t h e document b e f o r e a n s w e r i n g my

4 q u e s t i o n s .

5 B ut l e t me a sk you a q u e s t i o n f i r s t an d t hen

6 g i v e y ou a chance t o r e v i e w it .

7 A C e r t a i n l y .

8 Q With in t h i s document , do y ou r e c o g n i z e an y

9 d e s c r i p t i o n o f what we have been t a l k i n g a bo u t a s y o u r

10 FAM s c h e d u l e ?

11 MR. NOONE: Ca n I j u s t g e t you t o c l a r i f y ,

12 E i l e e n , t h a t you r q u e s t i o n i n t e r m s o f " r e c o g n i z e , " a r e

13 you say ing h a s he e v e r seen t h i s p a r t i c u l a r document

14 b e f o r e o r h as he e v e r s een th e p o r t i o n s i n t h i s

15 document b e f o r e ?

16 Are y ou say ing h as he e v e r hea rd t h e s e t e r m s

17 b e f o r e ?

18 BY MS. CALAGUAS:

19 Q I 'm a s k i n g i f , w i t h i n t h i s document , you

20 r e c o g n i z e an y d e s c r i p t i o n o f an FAM s chedu l e?

21 A I ' l l j u s t go down t h e l i s t f o r you , t h e n .

22 I ' m n o t s u r e what " m i s s i o n app r ov a l " means o r

Ii

I

I:

1

:

:

i



1 " p r o p o s e d m i s s i o n . "

2 Q I want t o yo u t r y t o answer my q u e s t i o n , and

3 i t ' s g o i n g t o r e q u i r e you t o r e v i e w t h e document . So,

4 t a k e y o u r t i m e .

5 A Okay.

6 Q B ut I 'm a s k i n g t o you r e v i e w t h e document an d

7 l e t me know if i n r e v i ewi ng t h i s document , you s e e a

8 d e s c r i p t i o n o f what we have been t a l k i n g a b o u t a s b e i n g

9 a FAM s c h e d u l e .

10 MR. NOONE: J u s t so i t ' s c l e a r , y o u r q u e s t i o n

11 i s , does he s e e i t now, n o t w h e t h e r he remembers s e e i n g

12 i t b a c k a t a c e r t a i n p o i n t ?

13 MS. CALAGUAS: Yeah. I 'm a s k i n g if h e c a n

14 s p o t i t f o r me now.

15 MR. NOONE: Okay.

16 THE WITNESS: C o n t i n g e n c y p l a n s , r u l e s o f

17 e n g a g e m e n t , j o i n t t r a i n i n g p l a n s and l e s s o n p l a n e s ,

18 w h i c h c o n c e r n t a c t i c a l p r o c e d u r e s . Numbers o f F e d e r a l

19 A i r M a r s h a l s , FAM t a c t i c s . Names o f i n d i v i d u a l FAMS,

20 team s i z e and c e l l - - s o r r y , t eam and c e l l s i z e .

21 MR. NOONE: I ' m going t o i n t e r r u p t t h e n an d

22 make s u r e t h a t you u n d e r s t a n d t h e q u e s t i o n t h a t ' s b e i n g



1 a sked .

2 Sh e a ske d i f you r e c o g n i z e i s s u e s d e a l i n g wi th

3 schedu l ing o r s c h e d u l e s .

4 THE WITNESS: (Nods he ad . )

5 S p e c i f i c a i r c a r r i e r s f lown.

6 MS. CALAGUAS: I shou l d j u s t r e f l e c t f o r t h e

7 r e c o r d , t h a t you nodded i n r e spo ns e t o y ou r a t t o r n e y ' s

8 q u e s t i o n .

9 Q I d o n ' t t h i n k I gave you t h a t i n s t r u c t i o n , Mr .

10 MacLean, t h a t i t ' s i m p o r t a n t i n t h i s proceed ing t h a t

11 y ou r r e s p o n s e s a r e v e r b a l . O t h e r w i s e , o u r d e p o s i t i o n

12 r e p o r t e r c a n ' t t a k e down w h a t ' s be ing s a i d .

13 A U n d e r s t o o d . I d id nod t o my a t t o r n e y .

14 Q Thank y o u .

15 So, I i n t e r r u p t e d you a t s p e c i f i c a i r c a r r i e r s

16 f lown?

17 A S e a t i n g a s s ig nm en t s , i n d i v i d u a l FAM t r a v e l

18 i t i n e r a r y .

19 And t h a t ' s a l l I c an s e e a s f a r a s t o you r

20 q u e s t i o n s i n r e g a r d s t o FAM schedu l ing .Ii

21 Q So, yo u t e s t i f i e d e a r l i e r t h a t y ou b e l i e v e d

22 FAM s c h e d u l i n g t o be c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n , c o r r e c t ?



1 A Yes .

2 Q So, e v e r y t h i n g t h a t y o u ' v e i d e n t i f i e d , t h e n ,

3 a s hav ing t o do w i t h FAM s c h e d u l i n g , you a l s o c o n s i d e r

4 t o be c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n , c o r r e c t ?

5 A What I j u s t r e a d o f f o f he re?

6 Q Yes .

7 A L e t me be s p e c i f i c on what I c o n s i d e r - - would

8 you l i k e me t o b e s p e c i f i c on what I c o n s i d e r

9 c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n on t h i s document?

10 Q I s t h e r e a d i f f e r e n c e be tween w h a t y o u ' v e

11 i d e n t i f i e d an d what you c o n s i d e r t o be c l a s s i f i e d


13 A I b e l i e v e t h a t y o u r q u e s t i o n was, i s t h e r e

14 a n y t h i n g on t h e s e t h r e e p a g e s t h a t a r e r e l a t e d t o y o u r

15 p r i o r q u e s t i o n s o f FAM s c h e d u l i n g , c o r r e c t ?

16 Q Yes.

17 A I w i l l g l a d l y t e l l you wha t I c o n s i d e r i s a

18 c l a s s i f i e d n a t u r e on t h e t o p i c s on t h i s p a g e ,

19 s p e c i f i c a l l y .

20 Q Why d o n ' t you go a h e a d and do t h a t ?

21 A Okay. Team l e a d e r , A s s i s t a n t Team L e a d e r,

22 m i s s i o n i t i n e r a r y . Numbers o f F e d e r a l A i r Marsh a l s . I

I ~

ij

IJ

11Ii



1 want t o be s p e c i f i c . Numbers o f A i r M a r s h a l s i n

2 r e l a t i o n t o ho w many a r e o p e r a t i n g on a s p e c i f i c

3 f l i g h t .

4 Q I s t h a t i n a d d i t i o n t o t h e numbers o f F e d e r a l

5 A ir M a r s h a l s ? I n o t h e r words , i s t h a t a s e p a r a t e i t em

6 t h a t y ou b e l i e v e t o b e c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n ?

7 A I b e l i e v e t h e agency c o n s i d e r s t h e

8 o v e r a l l - - f i r s t o f a l l , I have no i d e a how many

11

9 F e d e r a l A i r M a r s h a l s a r e employed , so I do n o t know ho w

10 many A ir M a r s h a l s a r e i n one g iv en o f f i c e .

11 A l l I know i s ho w many A i r M a r s h a l s a r e on my

12 g i v e n f l i g h t .

13 Q L e t me make s u r e t h a t you u n d e r s t a n d what I ' m

Ii14 a s k i n g you . l

15 I 'm a s k i n g you wha t you b e l i e v e i s c l a s s i f i e d


17 Now, do yo u b e l i e v e t h a t t h e numbers o f

18 F e d e r a l A i r M a r s h a l s i s c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n ?

19 A On a s p e c i f i c a i r c r a f t , y e s .

20 Q No , I 'm n o t a s k i n g if i t ' s on a s p e c i f i c

21 a i r c r a f t . Bu t j u s t t h e numbers o f F e d e r a l A ir

22 M a r s h a l s , you b e l i e v e t h a t t o be c l a s s i f i e d



1 i n fo rma t ion?

Il

2 A You need t o be more s p e c i f i c .

3 Q So , on ly if t h e r e i s a s p e c i f i c number o f A ir

4 Marsha l s , do you b e l i e v e t h a t t o be c l a s s i f i e d

5 i n fo rma t ion?

6 A S p e c i f i c number o f A i r Marsha ls i n where?

7 Q I s t h a t a d i f f e r e n c e t o you? I s t h a t what

8 makes i t c l a s s i f i e d i n fo rma t ion , if i t ' s t h e number o f

9 A ir M a r s h a l s t h a t ' s s p e c i f i c t o a p a r t i c u l a r a r e a ?

10 A I c a n ' t answer t h a t , beca us e I d o n ' t know how

11 many - - I d o n ' t know what y o u ' r e s p e c i f i c a l l y a s k i n g i n

12 a s f a r a s number of Fede ra l A i r M arsha l s .

13 I do no t know how many A ir M a r s h a l s a r e o r

14 have been employed t h ro ug hou t th e Uni t ed S t a t e s , and I

15 do n o t know how many A ir M a r s h a l s a r e i n one g i v e n

16 o f f i c e .

17 I on ly know how many A ir M a r s h a l s a r e on t he

18 f l i g h t t h a t I am d e s i g n a t e d t o p r o t e c t .

19 Q A l l r i g h t . I 'm no t a sk ing you , though,

20 w he the r you know t h e number o f F e d e r a l A ir M a r s h a l s a l l

21 t o g e t h e r o r a t a p a r t i c u l a r o f f i c e .

22 I 'm a s k i n g you whe t he r you t h i n k t h a t th e



1 number o f F e d e r a l A i r M a r s h a l s i s c l a s s i f i e d


3 With t h a t u n d e r s t a n d i n g , t h e n , i s t h e number

4 o f F e d e r a l A i r M a r s h a l s a l l t o g e t h e r c l a s s i f i e d


6 A I n my v i e w p o i n t ?

7 Q I 'm a s k i n g a b o u t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g , y e s .

8 A I b e l i e v e i t i s c o n f i d e n t i a l i n f o r m a t i o n .

9 Q I t ' s c o n f i d e n t i a l , b u t n o t c l a s s i f i e d ,

10 c o r r e c t ?

11 A I b e l i e v e t h a t t h e amount o f A i r M a r s h a l s Ii

12 employed c u r r e n t l y i s c o n s i d e r e d c o n f i d e n t i a l


14 Q How a b o u t t h e number o f A i r M a r s h a l s a t any

15 p a r t i c u l a r f i e l d o f f i c e ? Do you b e l i e v e t h a t number t o

16 be c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n ?

17 A No, I do n o t .

18 Q Do yo u b e l i e v e i t t o b e c o n f i d e n t i a l


20 A Yes .

21 Q Th e number o f A i r M a r s h a l s on a p a r t i c u l a r

22 f l i g h t , do y ou c o n s i d e r t h a t t o b e c l a s s i f i e d




2 A Yes.

3 Q Do y ou c o n s i d e r i t t o be c o n f i d e n t i a l


5 A Yes . Anyth ing t h a t ' s c l a s s i f i e d - - w e l l , n o ,

6 s o m e t h i n g t h a t ' s c l a s s i f i e d i s c l a s s i f i e d . Yo u c a n ' t

7 c o n s i d e r i t c o n f i d e n t i a l i n my e x p e r i e n c e . I t ' s e i t h e r

8 c l a s s i f i e d o r c o n f i d e n t i a l .

9 C o n f i d e n t i a l i n f o r m a t i o n c anno t b e c o n s i d e r e d

10 c l a s s i f i e d . An d I mean b y " c l a s s i f i e d , " I mean t h a t

11 i t ' s l a b e l e d "Sec re t " o r "Top S e c r e t . "

12 Q What a b o u t t h e o p p o s i t e ? I s c l a s s i f i e d

13 i n f o r m a t i o n c o n f i d e n t i a l i n y o u r mind?

14 A I d o n ' t know t h e e x a c t d e f i n i t i o n o f

15 " c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n , " b u t I b e l i e v e t h a t i t i s

16 a - - i t must b e s a f e g u a r d e d a t a h i r e l e v e l t h a n

17 c o n f i d e n t i a l i n f o r m a t i o n .

18 C l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n sh ou ld b e s a f e g u a r d e d

19 a t a h i g h e r l e v e l t h a n c o n f i d e n t i a l i n f o r m a t i o n , b u t I

20 d o n ' t t h i n k one i s s u e can be l a b e l e d b o t h c o n f i d e n t i a l

21 and c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n .

22 I 'm assuming t h a t ' s wha t you want me t o

1\

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1 answer.

2 Q No.

3 A I t l s one o r th e o t h e r .

4 Q We l l , I a s ked you i f i t wa s b o th?

5 A No . 1:j

6 Q By my q u e s t i o n , 11m no t a sk ing you w he the r

7 i t l s one o r t h e o t h e r . My q u e s t i o n i s w he the r i t l s

8 bo th a t t h i s p o i n t .

9 And what we a r e t a l k i n g abou t , t h e n , i s t h e

10 number o f F e d e r a l A i r Marsha ls on a p a r t i c u l a r f l i g h t .

11 A I b e l i e v e t h a t t o be c l a s s i f i e d i n fo rma t ion

12 t h a t must be h i g h l y sa f egua rded .

13 Q I n y o u r mind, i s c l a s s i f i e d i n fo rma t ion on ly

14 t o be c o n s i d e r e d c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n if i t l s l a b e l e d

15 a s "Sec re t " o r "Top S e c r e t ?

16 A I b e l i e v e c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n t o be

17 i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t cou ld r e s u l t i n s e r i o u s b o d i l y harm o r

18 l o s s e s o f l i f e .

19 But , g e n e r a l l y , i n my p a s t expe r i ence ,

20 any th ing t h a t l s been c l a s s i f i e d i s c o n s i d e r e d

21 c l a s s i f i e d m a t e r i a l i s e i t h e r l a b e l e d s e c r e t o r to p

22 s e c r e t .



1 Q So , i n o r d e r t o i d e n t i f y w h a t ' s c l a s s i f i e d

2 i n fo rma t ion , do yo u need a l a b e l on i t ?

3 A G e n e r a l l y, yes .

4 Q Are you say ing , t hen , t h e r e a r e t ime s where

5 you can i d e n t i f y any i n f o r m a t i o n i s c l a s s i f i e d i f i t ' s

6 n o t l a b e l e d as e i t h e r s e c r e t o r to p s e c r e t ?

7 A C o r r e c t . There a r e some t im es where - - t h e

8 agency can g e n e r a l l y c l a s s i f y eve ry th ing unde r one

9 s u b j e c t .

10 And I mean, t h e s u b j e c t of number of A ir

11 M a r s h a l s on an a i r c r a f t and t h e i r p o s i t i o n i s

12 c l a s s i f i e d i n fo rma t ion .

13 Q So , yo u know t h a t even though you d i d n ' t se e

14 an y document t h a t l a b e l e d t he number o f F e d e r a l A ir

15 Marshals on a p a r t i c u l a r f l i g h t as be ing c l a s s i f i e d ?

16 A When I a c c e p t e d t h i s p o s i t i o n , i t wa s unde r

17 t he n e c e s s i t y t h a t I had t o o b t a i n a top s e c r e t

18 c l e a r a n c e . In o r d e r t o ga in a top s e c r e t c l e a r a n c e , I

19 must know what th e i s t h e d i f f e r e n c e between something

20 t h a t i s c l a s s i f i e d and what i s n o t c l a s s i f i e d .

21 Q An d you know t h e d i f f e r e n c e between what i s

22 c l a s s i f i e d and n o t c l a s s i f i e d even i f t h a t i n fo rma t ion



1 i s n o t l a b e l e d a s such?

2 A Not n e c e s s a r i l y .

3 Q B ut I t hough t you j u s t s a i d t h a t t o have a to p

4 s e c r e t c l e a r a n c e , you s h o u l d know t h e d i f f e r e n c e

5 be tween whe the r someth ing i s c l a s s i f i e d o r n o t

6 c l a s s i f i e d .

7 A Depending on who c o n s i d e r s t h e i n f o r m a t i o n

8 c l a s s i f i e d .

9 I f t h e agency c o n s i d e r s someth ing c l a s s i f i e d

10 and a s l a b e l e d i t so and I have no knowledge t h a t i t

11 h a s b e e n c l a s s i f i e d such a s t h e agency w a n t s t o

12 c l a s s i f y i t, t hen I w o n ' t have knowledge o f t h a t

13 c l a s s i f i c a t i o n .

14 I on ly know t h a t i f someth ing i s go i ng t o h u r t

15 o r k i l l p e o p l e o r r e s u l t i n m a j o r p r o p e r t y damage, I

16 c o n s i d e r t h a t t o b e c l a s s i f i e d .

17 Q How do you know t h a t t h e number o f F e d e r a l A ir

18 M a r s h a l s on a p a r t i c u l a r f l i g h t i s c l a s s i f i e d

19 i n fo rma t ion?

20 A Because i f t h a t i s known by a b ad e l e me n t ,

21 eve ry p e r s o n on t h a t a i r c r a f t i s s u b j e c t t o d e a t h o r

22 b o d i l y harm o r anybody e l s e on t h e ground r e s u l t i n g i n



1 t h e a i r c r a f t f a l l i n g on t h o s e p e o p l e . Such a s on

2 S e p t e m b e r 11 t h , 2001 , p e o p l e d i e d on t h e a i r c r a f t an d Ii

3 a l s o d i e d on t h e s u r f a c e .

4 Q Do you know w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e a g e n c y h a s

5 i d e n t i f i e d t h e number o f F e d e r a l A i r M a r s h a l s on a

6 f l i g h t t o b e c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n ?

7 A I b e l i e v e t h e y d i d .

8 Q W h a t ' s t h e b a s i s o f y o u r b e l i e f ?

9 A B e c a u s e i f t h e g e n e r a l p u b l i c knew, i f t h e b ad

10 e l e m e n t knew, t h o s e p e o p l e can b e k i l l e d , t h e a g e n t s

11 would b e k i l l e d , t h e p e o p l e on t h e a i r c r a f t c o u l d b e

12 k i l l e d , an d t h e p e o p l e on t h e s u r f a c e c o u l d b e k i l l e d .

13 I c o n s i d e r t h a t c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n , an d I

14 would hope t h e agency would c o n s i d e r s o m e t h i n g t h a t••

15 s e r i o u s t o b e c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n .

;

16 Q B ut t o d a y, do you know w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e

17 agency h a s e v e r c o n s i d e r e d t h e number o f F e d e r a l A i r

18 M a r s h a l s on a p a r t i c u l a r f l i g h t t o b e c l a s s i f i e d


20 A I do n o t s p e c i f i c a l l y know i f anybody i n t h e

21 agency h a s made t h a t u t t e r a n c e o r h a s made a n y k i n d o f

22 p u b l i c a t i o n , b u t I hope t h e y h a v e .



I1 Q L e t me h a v e you t a k e a l o o k a t w h a t ' s l i s t e d

2 t h e r e on t h e s e c o n d page o f t h i s document a s

3 " I n d i v i d u a l FAM T r a v e l i t i n e r a r i e s . "

4 W h a t ' s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f what t h a t

5 d e s c r i b e s ?

6 A F l i g h t numbers , s e a t p o s i t i o n s .

7 Q A n y t h i n g e l s e ?

8 A No .

9 Q When you s a y " f l i g h t n u m b e r s , " what do y o u

10 mean by t h a t ?

11 A The f l i g h t number d e s i g n a t e d f o r t h a t a i r c r a f t

12 o r t h e f l i g h t f o r t h a t - - t h e m i s s i o n f o r t h a t I:

13 a i r c r a f t .

14 Q So, w h e t h e r o r n o t a F e d e r a l A i r M a r s h a l w i l l

15 b e on a p a r t i c u l a r f l i g h t ?

:16 A On t h a t g i v e n f l i g h t number.

17 F o r i n s t a n c e , you h a v e U n i t e d A i r l i n e s , F l i g h t

18 161 i s l e a v i n g f rom Te r m i n a l 6, Gate 68, f o r B o s t o n .

19 T h a t ' s what I mean by t h e f l i g h t number d e s i g n a t i n g

20 t h a t a i r c r a f t an d t h e m i s s i o n t h a t i t ' s g o i n g t o f l y .

21 Because , I b e l i e v e t h a t somet imes t h e f l i g h t

22 numbers c h a n g e , d e p e n d i n g on where t h e f l i g h t i s f l y i n g



1 t o .

2 Q L e t me a s k you t h i s q u e s t i o n f i r s t , t h e n .

3 FAM t r a v e l i t i n e r a r i e s , do yo u c o n s i d e r t h a t

4 t o b e c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n ?

5 A I f i t l i s t s t h e i r f l i g h t number and d a t e an d I:

6 t i m e and s e a t p o s i t i o n , y e s .

7 I f i t ' s v e r y g e n e r a l o f j u s t , you know, what

8 d ay t h e y ' r e f l y i n g on - - I c o n s i d e r t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n t o

9 become c l a s s i f i e d t h e more s p e c i f i c i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t ' s

10 i n v o l v e d .

11 Q Okay.

12 A Such a s t e r m i n a l number, s e c u r i t y c h e c k p o i n t

13 a r e a . The c l o s e r t h a t you g e t f o r b e i n g s p e c i f i c t o

14 where t h e A i r M a r s h a l i s s i t t i n g on t h e a i r c r a f t , I

15 b e l i e v e t h a t t o be - - t o go t o a h i g h e r l e v e l o fI:!)

16 c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n .

17 Q L e t me go back t o my q u e s t i o n , t h e n , a b o u t i18 what you mean b y f l i g h t numbers .

Ii19 A c c o r d i n g t o you , f l i g h t numbers ca n b e

20 c o n s i d e r e d c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n , c o r r e c t ?

21 A I f g i v e n w i t h a s p e c i f i c d a t e and t i m e .

F l i g h t numbers change d a i l y , h o u r l y. I t h a s Ii

~ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

22



1 t o be s p e c i f i c t o a t ime and d a t e .

2 Q At t h e a i r p o r t when you s ee t h e m o n i t o r s t h a t

3 i n d i c a t e t h e f l i g h t numbers , t h e g a t e s t h e y ' r e a t ,

4 w h e t h e r a f l i g h t ' s on t ime o r n o t , you d o n ' t c o n s i d e r

5 t h a t t o be c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n , do you?

6 A No .

7 Q Bu t t h e r e a r e f l i g h t numbers l i s t e d on t h a tI ~

8 moni to r, c o r r e c t ?

9 A C o r r e c t .

10 Q So, w h a t ' s t h e d i f f e r e n c e be tween w h a t ' s

11 c o n t a i n e d i n t h a t t e l e v i s i o n m o n i t o r t h a n what you

12 c o n s i d e r t o b e c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n w i t h r e s p e c t t o

13 f l i g h t numbers?

14 A I f you a s s o c i a t e A i r M a r s h a l s a r e go in g t o b e

15 on t h a t f l i g h t .

16 Q So, t h a t ' s t h e d i f f e r e n c e .

17 I f an A ir M a r s h a l i s g o i n g t o b e on a

18 p a r t i c u l a r f l i g h t an d you know t h e f l i g h t number, you

19 c o n s i d e r t h a t t o b e c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n ?

20 A Yes.

21 MR. NOONE: E i l e e n , c an I j u s t i n s e r t a n

22 o b j e c t i o n t o a l l t h e s e q u e s t i o n s i n s o f a r as t h e y d e a l



1 w i t h c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n r a t h e r t han what t h e i s s u e

2 h e r e i s , which i s s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n .

3 I j u s t want t o make t h a t s t a n d i n g o b j e c t i o n

4 no ted .

5 MS . CALAGUAS: T h a t ' s on t h e r e c o r d .

6 Q So, wi th r e s p e c t t o f l i g h t numbers t h a t ' s what

7 y ou c o n s i d e r t o b e a p a r t o f t r a v e l i t i n e r a r i e s ,

8 c o r r e c t ?

9 A I f i t ' s s p e c i f i e d t h a t t h e A ir Marsha l i s

10 g o i n g t o be on t h a t g i v e n f l i g h t and f l i g h t number,

11 y e s .

12 Q W h a t ' s a n RON m i s s i o n ?

13 A "Remain o v e r n i g h t . " T h a t ' s when an A ir

14 M a r s h a l i s s c h e d u l e d t o remain o v e r n i g h t be ca use t h e r e

15 i s n o t enough - - t h e r e a r e to o many f l y i n g h ou r s i n t h e

16 day.

17 T h e r e f o r e , t h e A ir M a r s h a l must g e t h i s r e s t ,

18 b ed r e s t b e f o r e go i ng on a ne w miss ion .

19 Q Are RON m i s s i o n s , t h e n , j u s t one t y p e o f

20 miss ion t h a t a F e d e r a l A i r M a r s h a l f l i e s ?

21 A No, an R-O-N can b e c a u s e d by s e v e r a l c a s e

22 s c e n a r i o s .



1 Q How does an RON m i s s i o n e f f e c t a FAM's

2 s chedu l e?

3 A I f I 'm on a RON m i s s i o n , I can p r e d i c t t h a t I

4 am go ing t o have a two-day o r more l e n g t h o f a miss ion .

5 T h e r e f o r e , I n e e d t o pack a bag wi th e x t r a o v e r n i g h t

6 t o i l e t r i e s and c l o t h i n g , e t c e t e r a .

7 An A ir M a r s h a l a l s o n e e d s t o p r e p a r e f o r a RON

8 miss ion by s e c u r i n g a h o t e l r e s e r v a t i o n f o r a g iven

9 a r e a t h a t t h e y ' r e s ch ed u l ed t o RON a t .

10 Q I f an RON m i s s i o n , does t h a t i n d i c a t e t o you

11 what t ype o f f l i g h t t h a t a F e d e r a l A i r Marsha l would be

12 on i n t e r m s o f t h e d u r a t i o n o f t h e f l i g h t ?

13 A No .

14 Q Does i t g ive you any i n f o r m a t i o n a b o u t t h e

15 t y p e o f f l i g h t t h a t a F e d e r a l A ir M a r s h a l would b e on

16 i f yo u knew t h e F e d e r a l A i r Marsha l wa s on a r e m a i n

17 o v e r n i g h t miss ion?

18 A S p e c i f i c a l l y , no . I c o u l d make a - - I c o u l d

19 g u e s s t h a t i t ' s go in g t o be a v e r y l o n g f l i g h t o r i t

20 c o u l d be a v e r y l ong day w i t h s e v e r a l l e g s .

21 Q So, g e n e r a l l y , i t w i l l g i v e you i n f o r m a t i o n

22 a b o u t w h e t h e r t h e FAM i s on a l o n g f l i g h t o r h as h ad a



1 long day, meaning t h a t t h e y ' v e f lown b u t on s h o r t e r

2 segments?

3 MR. NOONE: I 'm g o i ng t o o b j e c t t o a

4 m i s c h a r a c t e r i z a t i o n , b u t go ahead and answer.

5 THE WITNESS: Or - - w e l l , you a r e c o r r e c t , th e

6 A ir Marsha l i s f l y i n g away from h i s home, h i s home

7 o f f i c e .

8 The f u r t h e r an A ir Marsha l f l i e s away from h i s

9 home o f f i c e w i l l u s u a l l y end up having t h a t A i r Marsha l

10 do an RON a t a h o t e l .

11 BY MS. CALAGUAS:

12 Q So , how f a r away do you have t o be from you r

13 home o f f i c e b e f o r e you c o n s i d e r y o u r s e l f t o be on an

14 RON miss ion?

15 A I am go ing t o t ake a wi ld guess - -

16 MR. NOONE: I 'm g o i ng to i n s t r u c t you n o t t o

17 gues s .

18 MS. CALAGUAS: I d o n ' t want you t o g u e s s .

19 Q I n you r e x p e r i e n c e .

20 A In my expe r i ence?

21 Q Ca n you answer t h a t q u e s t i o n ?

22 A I f I f l y a minimum o f f o u r hou r s away from my

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1 home o f f i c e , i t ' s probab ly going to end up i n an

2 ove rn igh t mi s s ion , f ou r hou r s or more.

3 Q When you s a y f l y fou r ho u r s , t h a t means you r

4 f l i g h t i s f o u r hou r s long?

5 A Yes, from l e av ing th e ground and l and ing a t

6 i t s nex t d e s t i n a t i o n .

7 Q Why would t h a t be a "remain ove rn igh t "

8 miss ion?

9 A A ir Marshals a r e g e n e r a l l y - - t h e r e a r e

10 e x c e p t i o n s - - b u t f o r d om es t i c , and t h i s i s g o i n g t o be

11 i s e n s i t i v e i s s u e he re a s f a r a s i t m i g h t be cons ide red

12 c l a s s i f i e d o r c o n f i d e n t i a l .

13 MR. NOONE: Well , I 'm go in g t o w a i t u n t i l

14 E i l e e n i n s t r u c t s you to go ahead and answer i t anyway.

15 Do you want him t o answer i t anyway?

16 MS. CALAGUAS: Could you r ead b a c k h i s answer

17 f o r me, p l e a s e ?

18 (Whereupon, the p end in g q u e s t i o n wa s r ead i n t o

19 t h e r eco rd by the r e p o r t e r as fo l l ows :

20 "Q A ir Marshals a r e g e n e r a l l y - - t h e r e a r e

21 e x c e p t i o n s - - b u t f o r domest ic - - and t h i s i s go ing t o

22 be a s e n s i t i v e i s s u e he re a s f a r a s i t m i g h t be



1 c o n s i d e r e d c l a s s i f i e d o r c o n f i d e n t i a l . " )

2 MS. CALAGUAS:Go

a h e a d and a n s w e r t h i s .

3 Can yo u mark t h i s s e c t i o n , p l e a s e ?

4 (Con t inued im me d ia t e ly i n CONFIDENTIAL

5 s e s s i o n . )

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22



1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 (THIS SECTION MARKED CONFIDENTIAL)

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22



1 BY MS. CALAGUAS:

2 Q Mr . MacLean, yo u a r e unde r o a t h .

3 Dur ing t h e b r e a k , d i d y ou t a l k a b o u t y o u r

4 t e s t i m o n y a t a l l w i t h anyone?

5 A With my a t t o r n e y o n l y.

6 Q We've been t a l k i n g a b o u t RON m i s s i o n s . I

7 d i d n ' t a s k you what y o u r d e f i n i t i o n o f a m i s s i o n i s .

8 L e t ' s j u s t have t h a t f o r t h e r e c o r d , t h e word

9 "mi s s ion" w i t h r e s p e c t t o F e d e r a l A i r M a r s h a l s ?

10 A A m i s s i o n i s a f l i g h t - - an A i r Ma rs ha l

11 m i s s i o n i s a f l i g h t t h a t i s b e i n g p r o t e c t e d by A i r

12 M a r s h a l s .

13 Q I s t h e t e rm "RON m i s s i o n " u s e d , t o y o u r

14 knowledge , i n an y o t h e r agency?

15 A Ye s .

16 Q What o t h e r a g e n c i e s , t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t yo u

17 know?

18 A When I wa s i n t h e A i r F o r c e , we r e f e r r e d t o

19 m i s s i o n s t h a t we ha d t o spend t h e n i g h t o u t i n t h e

20 f i e l d a s a "Remain o v e r n i g h t . " T h a t ' s i t .

i

11I'

21 Q W h a t ' s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h e t e rm

22 " i " i h FAMS?



1 A Opera t ions i s a terminology used f o r an

2 a c t u a l - - f o r a c t u a l miss ions t h a t a re a i r c r a f t o r

3 f l i g h t s t h a t an A ir Marshal i s p r o - a c t i v e l y p r o t e c t i n g .

4 Anything e l s e would be a d m i n i s t r a t i v e i s s u e s

5 o r t r a i n i n g o p e r a t i o n s .

6 Q Would you c o n s i d e r i t to be a FAM o p e r a t i o n i f

7 a FAM wa s n o t a c t u a l l y on th e f l i g h t - - I shou ld say a

8 f l i g h t ?

9 A Rephrase t h a t .

10 Q Did you c o n s i d e r t h a t to be a FAM o p e r a t i o n as

11 y o u ' v e j u s t d e f i n e d i t ?

12 A N o.

13 Q So , when you say t h a t a FAM i s p r o - a c t i v e l y

14 p r o t e c t i n g a f l i g h t , does t h a t mean t h a t a FAM has t o

15 be on th e f l i g h t ?


17 Q What ' s you r under s t and ing o f th e te rm

18 "deployment" wi th r e s p e c t t o FAMs?

19 A An A ir Marshal be ing d e s i g n a t e d t o p r o t e c t an

20 a i r c r a f t . Ii

21 Q Again, t o p r o t e c t t h e a i r c r a f t , does t h e A ir

22 Marshal h to be i t ?



1 A Yes .

2 Q An d i f an A ir Marsha l i s n o t on t h e f l i g h t , do

3 you c o n s i d e r t h a t t o be a deployment?

4 A No .

5 Q L e t me have you t ake a look a t what w e ' l l mark

6 a s E x h i b i t 4 .

7 (Exh ib i t 4 wa s marked by t h e


9 TH E WITNESS: You want me t o r ev i ew t h i s ?

10 MS. CALAGUAS: P l e a s e .

11 THE WITNESS: I r ev i ewed i t .

12 BY MS. CALAGUAS:

13 Q Do you r ecogn ize E x h i b i t 4?

14 A No .

15 Q Have you e v e r seen E x h i b i t 4?

16 A I ' m s u r e I ' v e been t o l d t o r e a d i t , u n d e r s t a n d

17 i t , and s i g n an agreement t h a t I ' v e r e a d and ag reed t o

18 i t , b u t t h i s i s some t h i ng I d o n ' t r e c o g n i z e

19 immed ia t e ly.

20 Q I f you b e l i e v e t h a t a t some p o i n t y ou were

21 asked t o r ev i ew t h i s document, when would t h a t have

22 been?



1 A Sometime a f t e r November 13 th o f 2002.

2 Q What ' s t h e s i g n i f i c a n c e o f t h a t d a t e t o you?

3 A T h a t ' s when t h i s document wa s p u t t o g e t h e r .

4 MR. NOONE: I 'm go ing to i n s t r u c t you on t h e

5 r e c o r d n o t t o g u e s s a t any o f y o u r answer s . Okay?

6 TH E WITNESS: Okay.

7 MS. CALAGUAS: L e t me have you t a k e a l ook a t

8 what w e ' l l mark a s E x h i b i t 5.



11 THE WITNESS: I ' v e r ev i ew ed i t .

12 BY MS. CALAGUAS:

13 Q Do you r e c o g n i z e E x h i b i t 5?

14 A I b e l i e v e t h i s wa s a n o t h e r document t h a t I wa s

15 t o l d t o r e a d and s i g n as a c o n d i t i o n o f my employment,

16 and i t l ooks v e r y much l i k e t h e November 1 3 t h , 2002

17 v e r s i o n . 11

18 Q D id you e v e r have a copy o f w h a t ' s i n f r o n t o f

19 you t h a t ' s marked a s E x h i b i t 5?

20 A No, I do n o t have a copy, b u t I w i l l - - t h e r e

21 i s a p o s s i b i l i t y t h a t t h e r e i s one i n t h e f i l e t h a t you

22 h i d d ' i d d

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11

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1 Q Do you r e c o g n i z e t h i s document a s a document

2 t h a t wa s p r o d u c e d by you t o t h e agency i n r e s p o n s e t o

3 one o f i t s r e q u e s t s f o r p r o d u c t i o n o f documents?

4 A I f t h a t ' s what I p rodu ce d , t h e n I d o n ' t

5 c o n t e s t t h a t .

6 Q S o, a t some p o i n t d i d yo u have t h i s document

7 i n y o u r p o s s e s s i o n , c o r r e c t ?

8 MR . NOONE: Or h i s a t t o r n e y s d i d . I ' m n o t

9 s u r e , E i l e e n , w h e t h e r i t wa s s o m e t h i n g we p r o d u c e d

10 w i t h o u t - - i n d e p e n d e n t o f R obe r t g i v i n g i t t o u s . I t

11 m i g h t h a v e b e e n s o m e t h i n g t h a t we g e n e r a t e d . I ' m n o t

12 s u r e .

13 BY MS. CALAGUAS:

14 Q I 'm a s k i n g y o u , Mr. MacLean, i f you e v e r h ad a

15 document o f a copy o f t h i s document i n y o u r p o s s e s s i o n

16 a t a ny t ime?

17 MR. NOONE: I ' l l j u s t r e p e a t t h e i n s t r u c t i o n

18 t h r o u g h o u t .

19 D o n ' t gues s , i f you d o n ' t know. I ' m n o t

20 t r y i n g t o be d i f f i c u l t , b u t d o n ' t g u e s s .

21 BY MS. CALAGUAS:

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1 A Yes, I have been g i v e n a copy o f t h e s e

2 e x h i b i t s .

3 Q E x h i b i t 5 h a s a d i f f e r e n t d a t e t han E x h i b i t 4

4 a s r e f l e c t e d i n t h e to p r i g h t - h a n d c o r n e r .

5 A I s e e .

6 Q Do you know t h e s i g n i f i c a n c e o f t h a t d a t e ?

7 A No , I d o n ' t .

8 Q Do you know i f you r e c e i v e d a c o p y o f t h i s

9 document a f t e r t h a t d a t e ?

10 A Yes, I r e c e i v e d a copy o f t h i s document .

11 Q You d o n ' t know whe th e r o r n o t you r e c e i v e d a

12 copy o f t h a t document b e f o r e t h a t d a t e , though?

13 A I do n o t know.

14 Q At some p o i n t , y ou do r e c a l l hav ing r e a d t h e

15 document , t h o u g h ; i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?


17 Q Did you h a v e a n y q u e s t i o n s a b o u t t h e document

18 t h a t you r e a d ?

19 A No.

20 Q When you r e a d t h e document , wa s i t d u r i n g y o u r

21 employment w i t h TSA?

!I!

i!I!!111



1 TSA, I 'm n o t s u r e .

.2 Q Yes , I s h o u l d c l a r i f y my q u e s t i o n t o i n c l u d e

3 t h e t ime when y o u w e r e w i t h ICE.

4 So, w h i l e you d o n ' t remember e x a c t l y when you

5 r e a d t h e document , you know i t wa s w h i l e you w e r e a

6 F e d e r a l A i r M a r s h a l , c o r r e c t ?

7 A C o r r e c t .

8 Q L e t ' s me h a v e you t a k e a l o o k a t w h a t w e ' l l

9 mark a s E x h i b i t 6.

10 ( E x h i b i t 6 wa s m a r k e d b y t h e


12 THE WITNESS: Okay, I ' v e r e v i e w e d i t .

13 BY MS. CALAGUAS:

14 Q Do you r e c o g n i z e t h e document?

15 A Yes , I do.

16 Q I s y o u r s i g n a t u r e on t h e l a s t p a g e o f t h a t

17 document?

18 A Yes, i t i s .

19 Q D id you h a v e a ny q u e s t i o n s a b o u t t h i s document

20 a t t h e t i m e t h a t yo u s i g n e d i t ?

21 A No .

22 Q Who's t h e s i g n a t u r e o f y o u r s u p e r v i s o r on t h i s



1 document?

2 AI 'm go ing

t ogues s - - can

Igues s on t h i s one?

3 Q I ' l l t ake a guess a t t h i s p o i n t .

4 A I t h i n k i t ' s Mickey Mars ig l i ano . I 'm p r e t t y

5 s u r e i t wa s him. That l ooks l i k e a Mickey.

6 Q Mr . M a r s i g l i a n o wa s your s u p e r v i s o r a t t h a t

7 t ime t h rough 1963?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Did you have any o t h e r s u p e r v i s o r s d u r i n g t h i s

10 t ime?

11 A I d o n ' t t h i n k so . I t ' s a p o s s i b i l i t y t h a t he

12 took a l e a v e o f absence i n between and a n o t h e r

13 s u p e r v i s o r wa s a c t i n g i n h i s p l a c e .

14 Q L e t me have you t a k e a look a t what w e ' l l mark

15 as E x h i b i t 7.

16 ( E x h i b i t 7 wa s marked by th e


18 THE WITNESS: I have r ev i ewed i t . Thi s l ooks

19 l i k e a n o t h e r from Mickey Mars ig l i ano .

20 BY MS . CALAGUAS:

21 Q An d t h a t ' s a l s o your s i g n a t u r e b o t h unde r t h e

22 Performance Agreement I n i t i a t i o n and a l s o t h e

II

Ii



1 Performance Assessment?

2 A C o r r e c t .

3 Q An d d u r i n g bo th t imes t h a t you s i g n e d t h i s

4 document , d i d you unde r s t and i t s c o n t e n t ?

5 A Yes .

6 Q L e t me h a v e you t a k e a l ook a t E x h i b i t 8 .



9 THE WITNESS: I have r e v i ew ed i t .

10 BY MS. CALAGUAS:

11 Q Again , i s t h a t your s i g n a t u r e t h e r e on t h e

12 l a s t p a g e ?


14 Q B o t h unde r t he Performance Agreement

15 I n i t i a t i o n a nd a l s o a t t h e A s s e s s m e n t ?

16 A Yes .

i-I

17 Q And who wa s y o u r s u p e r v i s o r ?

i18 A M a r s i g l i a n o . I;:

i

19 Q At t h e t im e t h a t you s i g n e d t h i s document , d i d

20 you have any q u e s t i o n a bo u t i t ?

21 A No .

22 Q When you f i r s t i d a t t h Vegas f i e l d



1 o f f i c e , do you remember r e c e i v i n g an y t r a i n i n g ?

2 A Ye s .

3 Q Ca n yo u g e n e r a l l y d e s c r i b e t h e t r a i n i n g t h a t

4 you r e c e i v e d a t t h e t i m e t h a t y ou a r r i v e d i n Vegas?

5 A A d m i n i s t r a t i v e , o p e r a t i o n a l , f i r e a r m s .

6 Q Who gave you t h i s t r a i n i n g ?

7 A I do n o t remember.

8 Q Do you remember where you r e c e i v e d t h i s

9 t r a i n i n g ?

10 A I n a b u i l d i n g i n Las Vegas . I t c o u l d h a v e

11 b e e n e i t h e r t h e one on Va l l e y View o r t h e o t h e r on - - I

12 c a n ' t remember w h e r e t h e o t h e r one was . More t h a n

13 l i k e l y , i t was t h e one on Va l l e y View.

14 Q Was t h e r e anyone e l s e who r e c e i v e d t h i s

15 t r a i n i n g w i t h you?


17 Q Do y o u know f o r how l on g t h i s t r a i n i n g l a s t e d ?


19 Q I n t e rms o f t h e o p e r a t i o n a l a s p e c t s o f t h e

20 t r a i n i n g t h a t y ou r e c e i v e d , do you remember a n y

21 d i s c u s s i o n a b o u t FAM s c h e d u l e s ?

22 A I do n o t remember



1 Q Do you remember any d i s c u s s i o n a b o u t s e n s i t i v e

2 s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n ?

3 A No, I do n o t .

4 Q Do you remember an y d i s c u s s i o n a b o u t

5 c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n ?

6 A No , I do n o t . S p e c i f i c a l l y , I do n o t .

7 Q Do y ou remember any t r a i n i n g p r o v i d e d t o you

8 by Doug Hladky?

9 A H - a - l - - s o r r y , H - l - a - d - k - y .

10 Q Thank y o u . No p r o b l e m .

11 The t r a i n i n g t h a t you remember r e c e i v i n g from

12 Doug Hladky, when was t h a t ?

13 A Shou ld h a v e b een sometime i n e i t h e r l a t e 2001

14 o r e a r l y 2002.

15 Q G e n e r a l l y s p e a k i n g , what do you remember a b o u t

16 t h a t t r a i n i n g ?

17 A I d o n ' t remember. I t h i n k i t wa s j u s t m o s t l y

18 a g e n e r a l o r i e n t a t i o n , common s e n s e i s s u e s .

19 Q How l ong d i d t h a t t r a i n i n g l a s t ?

20 A P r o b a b l y an hour.

21 QDo

y ou r e c a l l where t h a t t r a i n i n g t o o k p l a c e ?



1 View o f f i c e o r - - I 'm t r y i n g t o t h i n k where t h a t f i r s t

2 f a c i l i t y was , w h a t s t r e e t i t wa s on? Warm S p r i n g s ,

3 a n o t h e r b u i l d i n g on Warm Spr ings Road i n Las Vegas .

4 S o r r y, I have t o go t o th e bathroom.

5 MS. CALAGUAS: L e t ' s go o f f t h e r e c o r d .

6 (A b r e a k wa s t a k e n . )

7 MS. CALAGUAS: Back o n t h e r e c o r d .

8 Q Mr . MacLean, y ou u n d e r s t a n d y o u ' r e s t i l l u n d e r

9 o a t h , c o r r e c t ?

10 A Yes , I do .

11 Q The t r a i n i n g t h a t yo u r e c a l l g i v e n by Doug

12 H l a d k y, i s t h i s t r a i n i n g s e p a r a t e and a p a r t f rom t h e

13 t r a i n i n g t h a t you r e c e i v e d when f i r s t a r r i v i n g i n Las

14 Vegas?

15 A I d o n ' t remember.

16 Q When you s a y t h a t yo u r e c e i v e d

17 common - - t r a i n i n g a b o u t common s e n s e i s s u e s from Doug

18 Hladky, c a n y ou be more s p e c i f i c a b o u t what t h a t would

19 be ?

20 A Yes. Tr a n s m i t t i n g t h e a i r p o r t , b y p a s s i n g

21 c h e c k p o i n t s e c u r i t y l a n e s , ho w t o b o a r d a i r c r a f t , h o t e l



1 t h e a i r l i n e emp loyees . Things o f t h a t n a t u r e .

2 Q You t a l k e d a b o u t a l l o f t h i s i n one ho u r?

3 A Yes .

4 Q Do you remember an y d i s c u s s i o n a b o u t

5 s c h e d u l e s , FAM s c h e d u l e s ?

6 A N o .

7 Q So , no w you d o n ' t r e c a l l any d i s c u s s i o n a bou t

8 FAM s c h e d u l e s ?

9 A S c h e d u l i n g was a lways an i s s u e , 24 h o u r s a

10 d a y, s even d a y s a week , bec au se i t wa s v e r y hodgepodge

11 a t t h a t t i m e .

12 I wa s t h e f i r s t , one o f t h e f i r s t A i r Mar sh a l s

13 d e p l o y e d . So , s c h e d u l i n g wa s v e r y h e c t i c an d v e r y

14 s c a t t e r e d , and s o , s c h e d u l i n g wa s a l w a y s a n i s s u e .

15 Q However h e c t i c and s c a t t e r e d y o u r s c h e d u l i n g

16 may h a v e been , d i d yo u have t h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t your

17 s c h e d u l i n g wa s t o r ema in c o n f i d e n t i a l a t t h i s p e r i o d o f

18 t i m e ?

19 A Yes. I t wa s t o remain c o n f i d e n t i a l a s f a r a s

20 s p e c i f i c s , s p e c i f i c f l i g h t s , s p e c i f i c s e a t p o s i t i o n s ,

21 s p e c i f i c d e s t i n a t i o n s , s p e c i f i c o r i g i n s .

1P a g e 71 j

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1 you c o n s i d e r t h a t f a c t t o be c o n f i d e n t i a l ?

2 A I f I w a s n ' t on a f l i g h t - - I d o n ' t u n d e r s t a n d .

3 P l e a s e r e p h r a s e t h e q u e s t i o n . Could you make

4 i t more s p e c i f i c , p l e a s e ?

5 Q We l l , t h i s q u e s t i o n i s s p e c i f i c t o you.

6 I f you w e r e n ' t on a p a r t i c u l a r f l i g h t , d i d you

7 c o n s i d e r t h a t a f a c t t h a t ne eded t o be c o n f i d e n t i a l ?

8 A Depending on t h e s i t u a t i o n .

9 I f t h e r e was a s p e c i f i c t h r e a t on a n a i r c r a f t

10 an d I knew t h a t A ir Ma rsha l s were n o t t o p r o t e c t t h a t

11 a i r c r a f t , t h a t would be c o n s i d e r e d c o n f i d e n t i a l .

12 Q So t h a t I g e t t h i s s t r a i g h t , t hen , if you

13 knew - - i f t h e f a c t t h a t a F e d e r a l A i r Mar sha l w a s n ' t

14 on a p a r t i c u l a r f l i g h t , t h a t f a c t shou ld b e


16 D id I g e t t h a t r igh t?

17 MR. NOONE: O b j e c t i o n .

18 THE WITNESS: Do I - -

19 MR. NOONE: A re you r e s t a t i n g what he s a i d ?

20 B e c a u s e i t ' s n o t ho w h e s a i d i t e a r l i e r .

!l

21 MS. CALAGUAS: I 'm a s k i n g him t o c o r r e c t me i f

22 I i



1 THE WITNESS: I f I know t h a t t h e r e i s a

2 s p e c i f i c t h r e a t t o a g i v e n a i r c r a f t and I know t h a t

3 t h e r e a r e no A i r M a r s h a l s on t h a t a i r c r a f t , t h a t i s

4 c o n f i d e n t i a l i n f o r m a t i o n .

5 BY MS. CALAGUAS:

6 Q I f t h e r e i s no s p e c i f i c t h r e a t t o a g iv en

7 a i r c r a f t and t h e r e i s no F e d e r a l A ir M a r s h a l on t h a t

8 f l i g h t and t h a t f a c t i s known t h a t t h e r e i s no F e d e r a l

9 A i r M a r s h a l on t h a t f l i g h t , do you c o n s i d e r t h a t t o b e

10 c o n f i d e n t i a l i n fo rma t io n?

11 A Yes, I d o .

12 Q So, does i t m a t t e r w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e r e i s a

13 s p e c i f i c t h r e a t t o a p a r t i c u l a r f l i g h t a s t o w h e t h e r o r

14 n o t - -

15 A I t h o u g h t if i t p e r t a i n e d t o me b e i n g on t h a t

16 f l i g h t o r n o t .

17 I f y o u ' r e s p e a k i n g i n g e n e r a l t e r m s ?

18 Q Yo u ' r e r i g h t , a t one p o i n t we were s p e c i f i c t o

19 you a nd t h en we s t a r t e d s p e a k i n g i n g e n e r a l t e rm s . So,

20 maybe we n e e d t o c l a r i f y t h a t .

21 We ' r e t a l k i n g i n g e n e r a l t e r m s now. Okay?

22 A Yes .



1 Q So , i f t h e r e i s no s p e c i f i c t h r e a t t o a

2 p a r t i c u l a r f l i g h t and t h e r e i s no Fede r a l A ir Marsha l

3 on t h a t f l i g h t , whether i t ' s yo u o r anyone e l s e , i s th e

4 f a c t t h a t t h e r e i s no Fede ra l A i r Marsha l on t h a t

5 f l i g h t c o n s i d e r e d c o n f i d e n t i a l i n fo rma t ion i n your

6 mind?

7 A A b s o l u t e l y.

8 Q Why?

9 A I t ' s impor t an t t o know t h a t no t on ly shou ld

10 th e bad e l e m e n t b e gues s ing w h e t h e r t h e r e i s an A ir

11 Marsha l on t h e p l a n e , t h e y s h o u l d n ' t have any knowledge

12 o f whether t h e r e i s no A ir Marsha l on t h a t p l a n e .

13 I f t h e bad e l e m e n t knows t h e r e a r e no A ir

14 Marsha ls on t h a t p l a n e , th e bad e l e m e n t i s g o ing t o

15 want t o b e on t h a t p lane .

16 Q So, w h a t ' s your unde r s t and ing o f " s e n s i t i v e

17 s e c u r i t y i n fo rma t ion"? What i s i t ?

18 A S e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n fo rma t ion i s a t e rm t h a t

19 wa s developed by s p e c i f i c a l l y th e Tr a n s p o r t a t i o n

20 S e c u r i t y A d m i n i s t r a t i o n pos t -Sep t e mb e r 11 th , 2001 . And

21 i t ' s a v e r y l o o s e l y used t e rm.

22 I ' v e s e e n t h e term l a b e l e d on going away



1 p a r t i e s , c o f f e e g e t - t o g e t h e r s , s p e c i f i c moral and

2 w e l f a r e e v e n t s .

3 So, t h a t ' s wh y I am g e n e r a l l y con fused as t o

4 what t h e agency c o n s i d e r s as s e n s i t i v e " s e c u r i t y

5 i n f o r m a t i o n , " quo te , unquo te , on t h a t .

6 P r i o r t o my employment as a F e d e r a l A i r

7 Marsha l , I n e v e r h e a r d o f t h e t e rm " s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y

8 i n f o r m a t i o n . "

9 Q When you s ay t h a t s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y

10 i n f o r m a t i o n i s used wi th r e s p e c t t o g o i n g away p a r t i e s

11 o r o t h e r mora l e v e n t s , I d o n ' t u n d e r s t a n d t h a t .

12 Are you t a l k i n g abou t i f t h e r e i s an

13 i n v i t a t i o n t o an e v e n t l i k e t h a t ?

14 A C o r r e c t . In an e - m a i l , i t wa s s e n t i n an

15 e - m a i l and i t wa s l a b e l e d " S e n s i t i v e S e c u r i t y

16 I n f o r m a t i o n . "

17 Q D id you hand le s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n

18 whi l e a s a F e d e r a l A ir Marshal?

19 A The agency d i d p r o v i d e me documents t h a t were

20 l a b e l e d " S e n s i t i v e S e c u r i t y I n f o r m a t i o n . "

21 Q Do you c o n s i d e r a FAM's s c h e d u l e t o be

22 s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n fo rma t ion?



1 A I 'm s t i l l con fu se d a s t o w h a t i s c o n s i d e r e d

2 s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n and what i s n o t

3 c o n s i d e r e d s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n .

4 T h e r e f o r e , I 'm n o t c o n f i d e n t i n t r y i n g t o

5 d e s c r i b e t o y o u w h a t I b e l i e v e i s s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y

6 i n f o r m a t i o n o r what i s n o t .

7 I do know w h a t t h e a g e n c y g e n e r a l l y d o e s o r

8 does n o t l a b e l s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n .

9 B ut b y t h e i r a c t i o n s , I s t i l l do n o t know w h a t

10 a r e t h e i r g u i d e l i n e s f o r l a b e l i n g o r c l a s s i f y i n g

11 s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n .

12 Q Ha d you e v e r s e e n y o u r s c h e d u l e p r i n t e d o u t ?

13 A Yes .

14 Q An d i n t h a t p r i n t o u t o f y o u r s c h e d u l e , was i t

15 l a b e l e d a s a s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n ?

16 A Yes .

17 Q A t an y p o i n t , h ad you e v e r s e e n a p r i n t o u t o f

18 y o u r s c h e d u l e t h a t d i d n ' t c o n t a i n a l a b e l t h a t i t was

19 s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n ?

20 A I do n o t know.11·1

21 L e t me s t r i k e t h a t and s a y, y e s , I have

22 r e c e i v e d s c h e d u l e s t h a t were n o t l a b e l e d s e n s i t i v e



1 s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n .

2 Q But t h e d i f f e r e n c e i s , t h e s e were n o t y o u r

3 s c h e d u l e s ?

4 A The agency g e n e r a l l y l e f t o u r s c h e d u l e s o u t i n

5 t h e open . G e n e r a l employees i n t h e f i e l d o f f i c e h a d

6 a c c e s s to t h e s c h e d u l e s , i n c l u d i n g t h e j a n i t o r s .

7 So, t h a t wa s a n o t h e r r e a s o n wh y i t wa s

8 c o n f u s i n g a s t o what wa s c o n s i d e r e d s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y

9 i n f o r m a t i o n o r n o t .

10 Q So, you r e c a l l a t i m e where a FAMS s c h e d u l e ,

11 whe t he r i t ' s y o u r s c h e d u l e o r someone e l s e ' s , t h a t was

12 p r i n t e d o u t and n o t l a b e l e d a s s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y

13 i n f o r m a t i o n , c o r r e c t ?


15 Q Dur ing t h a t t i me when yo u saw t h e s c h e d u l e a nd

16 i t w a s n ' t l a b e l e d a s SS1, d i d you s t i l l have t h e

17 u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t t h e s c h e d u l e n e e d e d t o r e m a i n


19 A A b s o l u t e l y , an d s a f e g u a r d e d .

20 Q B ut d i d you know w h e t h e r o r n o t t h a t s c h e d u l e

I:

I:21 wa s c o n s i d e r e d t o be s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n

22 even though i n t h e p r i n t o u t o f t h a t s c h e d u l e i t w a s n ' t



1 l a b e l e d a s s u c h ?

2A

I c o n s i d e r e di t

some t yp e o f p r o t e c t e d

3 i n f o r m a t i o n . W h e t h e r I knew i t was s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y

4 i n f o r m a t i o n , I w o u l d n ' t know.

5 Q By " p r o t e c t e d , " you t e s t i f i e d t h a t i t n e e d e d

6 t o b e s a f e g u a r d e d .

7 Would t h a t i n c l u d e , t h e n , n o t d i s c l o s i n g t h a t

8 s c h e d u l e t o a p e r s o n w i t h o u t a n e e d - t o - k n o w ?

9 A C o r r e c t . L e t me go back t o my e a r l i e r

10 s t a t e m e n t t h a t I made i n t h e d e p o s i t i o n , t h a t I

11 c o n s i d e r A i r M a r s h a l l s c h e d u l e s w i t h s p e c i f i c

12 i n f o r m a t i o n a s t o f l i g h t numbers , d a t e s , t i m e s a n d s e a t

13 p o s i t i o n i n g , a s h i g h l y c o n f i d e n t i a l - - I 'm s o r r y ,

14 h i g h l y c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n wh e t he r i t was marked

15 s e c r e t o r n o t t o p s e c r e t . I c o n s i d e r e d t h a t

16 i n f o r m a t i o n t o be h i g h l y s a f e g u a r d had .

17 Q We l l , you b r i n g t h a t up. L e t me make s u r e

18 t h a t we a r e on t h e same p a g e , t h e n , w i t h r e s p e c t t o my

19 q u e s t i o n s a b o u t s c h e d u l e s when t h e Y ' r e p r i n t e d o u t .

20 The s c h e d u l e s when t h e y ' r e p r i n t e d o u t , d o e s

21 i t i n c l u d e f l i g h t numbers?

22 A Yes



1 Q Does i t i n c l u d e s e a t a s s i g n m e n t s ?

2 A At one t ime t h e y d i d , b u t i t - - I b e l i e v e t h e y

3 s topped t h a t p r a c t i c e .

4 Q What e l s e d i d t h e s c h e d u l e , when i t ' s p r i n t e d

5 o u t , i n c l u d e ?

6 A Your p a r t n e r ' s name, o r i g i n , d e s t i n a t i o n ,

7 t i m e s , f l i g h t d e p a r t u r e t i me s and f l i g h t a r r i v a l t i m e s .

8 Q T h a t would be i n a d d i t i o n t o t h e f l i g h t

9 number, c o r r e c t ?


11 Q Anyth ing e l s e ?

12 A T h a t ' s a l l I c an t h i n k o f r i g h t now.

13 Q So, t h e f l i g h t s c h e d u l e t h a t y o u saw p r i n t s

14 had o u t t h a t d i d n ' t have an y SSI l a b e l o n i t , c o n t a i n e d

15 f l i g h t n u m b e r s , p a r t n e r s names , o r i g i n , d e s t i n a t i o n ,

16 t i m e s , c o r r e c t ?


18 Q An d a t one p o i n t you remember t h e f l i g h t

19 s c h e d u l e s c o n t a i n i n g s e a t a s s i g n m e n t s , b u t w i t h r e s p e c t

20 t o t h e s c h e d u l e t h a t you r e c a l l n o t h a v i n g a n S S I

21 l a b e l , do you know w h e t h e r o r n o t t h a t p r i n t o u t

22 i ?

P a g e 79 I11J1

1~:1,I

IJ

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1 A I d o n ' t know.

2 Q These s c h e d u l e s would i n c l u d e a ny m i s s i o n s

3 t h a t were remain o v e r n i g h t , c o r r e c t ?

4 A Yes .

5 Q In t a l k i n g a b o u t - - l e t me go bac k .

6 Yo u g a v e me your u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f what i s S8I .

7 Do you have an u n d e r s t a n d i n g a s t o what

8 r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s you had i n hand l ing SSI?

9 A Yes , I knew t h e agency d i d n o t want me t o

10 d i v u l g e s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n , an d t h a t i t

11 must b e s a f e g u a r d e d i f i t wa s l a b e l e d b y t h e agency a s

12 b e i n g s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n .

13 I ' l l c a l l i t 88 1 from no w on .

14 Q S u r e . So w i l l I .

15 Were you aware o f an y o t h e r r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s

16 you had t o SSI b e s i d e s n o t d i v u l g i n g 8SI?

17 A I h ad a r e s p o n s i b i l i t y t o p r o t e c t t h e p u b l i c , I)i

Il18 my p a r t n e r , p r o p e r t y , and t h e i n t e g r i t y o f a v i a t i o n

19 s e c u r i t y o v e r a l l .

20 Q Do you know whe th e r o r n o t you h ad any

21 r e s p o n s i b i l i t y t o l a b e l S 8I , y o u r s e l f ?



1 t o l a b e l a n y t h i n g m y s e l f , an y t y p e o f c l a s s i f i c a t i o n .

2 Q Were you aware o f an y r e s p o n s i b i l i t y i f you

3 s h o u l d h a v e r e c e i v e d SSI t h a t d i d n ' t h a v e a l a b e l on

4 i t ?

5 A I w o u l d n ' t know if i t wa s SSI o r n o t u n l e s s i t

6 h ad a l a b e l .

7 Q Can you g i v e me examples o f what you knew t o

8 b e SSI?

9 A A n y t h i n g t h a t t h e agency marked S S I .


11 A N o .

12 Q I s i t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t SSI i s l i m i t e d

13 o n l y t o w r i t t e n i n f o r m a t i o n ?


15 Q Do y ou b e l i e v e t h a t SSI can b e d i s c u s s e d

16 v e r b a l l y a s opposed t o i n w r i t i n g ?

17 A Yes. Such a s w e ' r e d o i n g now.

18 Q How would you mark SSI if y o u ' r e d i s c u s s i n g i t

19 v e r b a l l y ?

20 A U s u a l l y t h e s e n i o r i n d i v i d u a l i n t h e

21 c o n v e r s a t i o n w i l l g i v e a d i s c l a i m e r , a n o r a l d i s c l a i m e r

22 t h a t t h e f o l l o w i n g i n f o r m a t i o n i s c o n s i d e r e d s e n s i t i v e ,

111I1i1lj,1

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1 S S I .

2 Q You sa y " u s u a l l y . "

3 I s t h a t a lways t h e c a s e t h a t you g e t t h i s

4 d i s c l a i m e r from a s e n i o r p e r s o n t h a t t h e d i s c u s s i o n

5 y o u r a b o u t t o have i n c l u d e s s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y


7 A I n t h e i n i t i a l i n t r o d u c t i o n o f t h e s u b j e c t ,

8 y e s .

9 I f I am t o l d t h a t a c e r t a i n i s s u e by one

10 i n d i v i d u a l i s c o n s i d e r e d c l a s s i f i a b l e i n f o r m a t i o n , I

11 w i l l , u n t i l t o l d o t h e r w i s e , w i l l c o n s i d e r t h a t i s s u e a s

12 b e i n g c l a s s i f i e d c o n f i d e n t i a l o r S S I .

13 Q Can you r e p e a t h i s a n s w e r f o r me ? S o r r y.

14 (Whereupon, t h e p e n d i n g q u e s t i o n wa s r e a d i n t o

15 t h e r e c o r d b y t h e r e p o r t e r a s f o l l o w s :

16 "Q I n t h e i n i t i a l i n t r o d u c t i o n o f t h e s u b j e c t ,

17 y e s . I f I am t o l d t h a t a c e r t a i n i s s u e b y one

18 i n d i v i d u a l i s c o n s i d e r e d c l a s s i f i a b l e i n f o r m a t i o n , I

19 w i l l , u n t i l t o l d o t h e r w i s e , w i l l c o n s i d e r t h a t i s s u e a s

20 b e i n g c l a s s i f i e d c o n f i d e n t i a l o r S S I ? " )

21 THE WITNESS: I s t h a t even a word? I ' l l f e e l



1 j u s t made t h a t u p .

2 MS. CALAGUAS: T h a t ' s f i n e . I t h i n k I

3 u n d e r s t a n d what you mean by i t anyways.

4 THE WITNESS: Okay. I ' l l r e p h r a s e i t a s t h e

5 p o t e n t i a l t o b e i n g c l a s s i f i e d .

6 BY MS. CALAGUAS:

7 Q So t h a t I 'm c l e a r , t h e n , does t h e s e n i o r

8 o f f i c i a l have t o s a y t h a t t h e i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t ' s a b o u t

9 t o be d i s c u s s e d ma y i n c l u d e c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n

10 b e f o r e you would c o n s i d e r t h e i n f o r m a t i o n t o be

11 c l a s s i f i e d , c o n f i d e n t i a l o r SSI?

12 A A b s o l u t e l y , u n l e s s I ha d a p r i o r knowledge o f

13 t h e t o p i c b e i n g c l a s s i f i e d a l r e a d y .

14 Q The s e n i o r o f f i c i a l s p e c i f i c a l l y h a s t o u se

15 t h e word " c l a s s i f i e d " i n y ou r mind b e f o r e you would

16 know?

17 A No, t h e y cou ld s a y i t wa s c o n f i d e n t i a l ,

18 c l a s s i f i e d , o r t h i s i n f o r m a t i o n i s la w e n f o r c e m e n t

19 s e n s i t i v e . An y o f t h o s e t e r m i n o l o g i e s would h a v e b e e n

20 u s e d .

21 Q An d by u s i n g an y o f t h o s e t e r m i n o l o g i e s , what



1 r e s p e c t t o t h e i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t ' s a b o u t t o b e d i s c u s s e d

2 v e r b a l l y ?

3 A P l e a s e r e p h r a s e .

4 Q When a s e n i o r o f f i c i a l u s e s t h a t t y p e o f

5 t e r m i n o l o g y t h a t y o u ' v e j u s t d e s c r i b e d - -

6 A Ye s .

7 Q - - would t h a t i n d i c a t e t o you an y

8 r e s p o n s i b i l i t y t h a t you may have w i t h r e s p e c t t o t h e

9 i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t ' s a b o u t t o be d i s c u s s e d ?

10 A Yes .

11 Q An d w h a t would t h a t r e s p o n s i b i l i t y be?

12 A T h a t I c a n n o t d i s c u s s t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n w i t h

13 anybody who d i d n o t have a nee d - to - kn ow.

14 Q Your c e l l phone i n 2003 , s p e c i f i c a l l y i n a b o u t

15 J u l y o f 2003 , was i t pas swor d p r o t e c t e d ?

16 A No.

17 Q D id i t have t h e c a p a b i l i t y o f b e i n g pas sw ord

18 p r o t e c t e d ?


20 Q But you d i d n o t p as sword p r o t e c t t h a t phone?

21 A Are you r e f e r r i n g t o t h e v o i c e m a i l , t o a c c e s s

22 i l ?

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1 The o n l y pas sw ord r e q u i r e d on t h e c e l l p h o n e

2 wa s t o g a i n a c c e s s t o vo ice ma i l .

3 Q In t e rms o f o p e r a t i n g t h e phone , wa s a

4 pa s s w ord r e q u i r e d ?

5 A No .

6 Q I n t e rms o f - - s o , l e t me make s u r e I ' m c l e a r .

7 So, r e c e i v i n g o r send ing phone c a l l s ?

8 A No .

9 Q Was a pas sword r e q u i r e d to r e c e i v e o r send

10 t e x t messages?

11 A No . L e t me s t o p . The phone d i d n ' t ha ve t h e

12 a b i l i t y t o send t e x t me ssage s , o n l y c o u l d r e c e i v e t e x t

13 mes s a ges .

14 Q So, t h e o n l y p a s s w o r d r e q u i r e d w i t h r e s p e c t t o

15 y o u r c e l l p h o n e i n 2003 , wa s f o r check ing v o i c e m a i l ?

16 A Yes .

17 Q In 2003, what t y p e s o f i n f o r m a t i o n d i d you

18 r e c e i v e v i a t e x t message?

19 A Most of i t wa s to t e l l a b o u t a t r a f f i c r e p o r t ,

20 t h a t t h e r e was a t e r m i n a l b e i n g c l o s e d a t t h e a i r p o r t ,

21 j u s t g e n e r a l knowledge t h i n g s t o g ive A i r M a r s h a l s a

Ii

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1 Q I n t h i s p e r i o d o f t i m e , d i d you e v e r r e c e i v e a

2 t e x t message t h a t changed y o u r s c h e d u l e ?

3 A Yes .

4 Q What t y p e o f i n f o r m a t i o n w i t h r e s p e c t t o y o u r

5 change o f s c h e d u l e would t h e t e x t message b e?

6 A Are you r e f e r r i n g t o th e RONs b e i n g c a n c e l e d ?

7 Q Not i f s p e c i f i c a l l y . J u s t g e n e r a l l y .

8 A I r e c e i v e d a l l k i n d s o f i n f o r m a t i o n a l l t h e

9 t ime i n t e x t m e s s a g e s .

10 Q What a b o u t t h e o n e s w i t h r e s p e c t t o y o u r

11 s c h e d u l e ?

12 A Yes, we would g e t n o t i f i c a t i o n s o f a c h a n g e i n

13 o u r s chedu l e an d t o g i v e somebody a c a l l .

14 Q Can you g i v e me an example o f a t e x t message

15 t h a t yo u r e c e i v e d w i t h r e g a r d t o a change i n y o u r


17 A Say, t h e r e ' s been a change i n y o u r s c h e d u l e ,

18 p l e a s e c a l l o p e r a t i o n s t o g e t a ne w s c h e d u l e .

19 Q I n t h e t e x t m e s s a g e , would you e v e r r e c e i v e

20 more i n f o r m a t i o n a b o u t t h e a c t u a l change i n y o u r


22 A N o t h i n g s p e c i f i c a s i n f l i g h t numbers o r



1 any th ing l i k e t h a t . Tha t wa s i t . J u s t a c a l l t h e r e

2 wa s a change i n t h e s c h e d u l e a nd t o c a l l o p e r a t i o n s .

3 T h a t ' s i t .

4 Q Were any d a t e s r e f l e c t e d i n a t e x t message i f

5 t h e r e wa s a c h a n g e i n your s chedu le?

6 A Yes .

7 Q I n what c o n t e x t would t h e d a t e s appea r t hen?

8 A The d a t e of t h e schedu le chan ge . Th e d a t e

9 where t h e c h a n g e wa s go i ng t o b e i n t h e s c h e d u l e .

10 Q By knowing t h e d a t e - -

11 A I 'm s o r r y, th e d a t e o f when t h e m i s s i o n s were

12 supposed t o be f lown.

13 Q Ca n you g ive me an example?

14 A "Miss ion f o r J u l y 3 r d changed. C a l l

15 o p e r a t i o n s . "

16 I have t o u se t h e r e s t room a g a i n . I 'm s o r r y .

17 MS. CALAGUAS: We can go o f f r e c o r d .

18 (A b r e a k wa s t a k e n . )

19 MS. CALAGUAS: We a r e b ack on t h e r e c o r d .

20 Q I t h i n k my l a s t q u e s t i o n wa s f o r you t o g i v e

21 me an example o f a change i n y o u r s c h e d u l e a nd ho w t h a t

22 would b e d e s c r i b e d i n a t e x t m e s s a g e



1 A "Schedule change J u l y 1 s t , 2003 . C a l l

2 o p e r a t i o n s f o r f u r t h e r i n f o r m a t i o n . "

3 Q So , by r e f e r r i n g t o th e d a t e J u l y 1 s t , 2003 ,

4 i n y o u r example , would t h a t be wi t h r e s p e c t t o any

5 p a r t i c u l a r f l i g h t s f o r t h a t day?

6 A An y f l i g h t s i n t h a t g i v e n day.

7 Q In 2003 , wa s t h e r e e v e r a t ime where y o u r

8 s chedu l e would change such t h a t you would n o t be on a

9 p a r t i c u l a r f l i g h t ?

10 A I t ' s a p o s s i b i l i t y .

11 Q D id it , i nde ed , happen a t some p o i n t i n 2003?

12 A You want t o r e p h r a s e t h a t q u e s t i o n , p l e a s e ?

13 Or i f you c o u l d r e a d i t back t o me?

14 Q In 2003 , wa s t h e r e a t ime where y o u r s c h e d u l e

15 changed such t h a t you were n o t on a p a r t i c u l a r f l i g h t ?


17 Q Aside from t h e d a t e , would you have anymore

18 i n fo rma t ion i n t h e t e x t message a b o u t a change i n y o u r

19 s c h e d u l e , g e n e r a l l y speak in g , i n 2003?

20 A J u s t t h e d a t e an d t o c a l l . T h a t ' s a l l I can

21 remember.

22 Q The t e x t message i n t h i s c a s e , le t ' s t a l k



1 a b o u t t h a t .

2 Do you remember when you r e c e i v e d t h e t e x t

3 message t h a t RON m i s s i o n s would be c a n c e l e d ?

4 A I t was on o r a b o u t J u l y 28 th o f 2003 .

5 Q Yo u a g r e e t h a t yo u s h a r e d t h e i n f o r m a t i o n i n

6 t h i s t e x t m e s s a g e t o Brock Meeks on J u l y 29 th , 2003?

7 A Yes .

8 Q So, you b e l i e v e t h a t yo u w a i t e d a day, t h e n ,

9 a f t e r r e c e i v i n g t h e t e x t m e s s a g e b e f o r e s h a r i n g i t w i t h

10 B r o c k Meeks?

11 A I d o n ' t remember. I made a p h o n e c a l l t o t h e

12 I n s p e c t o r G e n e r a l Hot L i n e .

13 Q T h a t would have b ee n a f t e r you r e c e i v e d t h e

14 t e x t message?

15 A T h a t ' s c o r r e c t .

16 Q I n t h e r e s p o n s e s t h a t you p r o v i d e d me , t h a t

17 phone c a l l t o t h e I n s p e c t o r Genera l , y ou h a d i d e n t i f i e d

18 a s t a k i n g p l a c e on J a n u a r y 2 5 t h , 2003?


20 MR. NOONE: J a n u a r y o r Ju ly?

21 MS. CALAGUAS: S o r r y, J u l y 2 4 t h .

22 THE WITNESS R i h I i k d J l 2 8 h



1 abou t because t h a t ' s when I knew I spok e w i t h Brock

2 Meeks.

3 B ut I c o u l d have g o t t e n t h e t e x t message any

4 number o f g iven days p r i o r t o t h a t . I do no t know

5 s p e c i f i c a l l y .

6 BY MS. CALAGUAS:

7 Q I f you can r e c a l l any s p e c i f i c d a t e s , I mean I

8 u n d e r s t a n d i t wa s t h a t l ong a g o .

9 What I 'm t r y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d , t ho ugh , i s how

10 much t ime h a d p a s s e d between when you f i r s t r e c e i v e d

11 t h e t e x t message and when you sha red i t w i t h Brock

12 Meeks?


14 Q More t han a day?


16 Q Could i t have b e e n as l ong a s a week?


18 Q Between t h e t ime t h a t you r e c e i v e d t h e t e x t

}19 message and s h a r e d i t wi th Brock Meeks, i s t h a t when

,

IiI:

20 you c o n t a c t e d OIG?

21 A Yes .

22 Q D id you c o n t a c t anyone e l s e a b o u t t h e t e x t I;



1 message i n between t h e t ime t h a t you r e c e i v e d t h e t e x t

2 message and when you sha red i t w i t h Brock Meeks?

3 A Yes . I spoke wi th a s u p e r v i s o r .

4 Q Which s u p e r v i s o r d i d you speak t o ?

5 A A s s i s t a n t t o t h e S p e c i a l Agent i n cha rge ,

6 Roger S c o f f i e l d .

7 Q I t hough t y o u r s u p e r v i s o r was Mr. M a r s i g l i a n o .


9 Q Mr . S c o f f i e 1 d wa s a n o t h e r s u p e r v i s o r ?


11 Q B ut n o t y o u r d i r e c t s u p e r v i s o r ?

12 A C o r r e c t . I p e l i e v e he may have be en t h e d u t y

13 ASAC a t t h e t ime . Supe rv i so r s were u s u a l l y corning an d

14 go ing , u n a v a i l a b l e , so t h e r e wa s a du ty s u p e r v i s o r .

15 Q Had you p r e f e r r e d t o speak t o your s u p e r v i s o r ,

16 Mr . M a r s i g l i a n o , r a t h e r than Mr . S c o f f i e l d A t t h e t ime

17 t h a t you d i d speak t o Mr. S c o f f i e l d ?



Page 92

1 c o n v e r s a t i o n w i t h Mr. S c o f f i e l d ?

2 A Yes , i t was .

3 Q S o , i t wa s i n t h e Vegas f i e l d o f f i c e ?

4 A Ye s .

5 Q What d i d h e s a y ?

6 A He s a i d t h a t t h e r e wa s no more - - t h e r e wa s a

7 budg e t p rob l em a n d e v e r y b o d y h ad made t h e i r - - t h e r e

8 were c o m p l a i n t s a b o u t i t , b u t t h e r e wa s n o t h i n g g o i n g

9 t o be done b e c a u s e t h e r e wa s a p p a r e n t l y no money i n t h e

10 b u d g e t t o f u n d o v e r n i g h t m i s s i o n s .

11 He s a i d i t wa s d i s c u s s e d w i t h h e a d q u a r t e r s and

12 e v e r y b o d y a g r e e d t h a t i t wa s a d a n g e r o u s d e c i s i o n a nd

13 t h a t i t b r o k e t h e l aw, b u t t h a t h i s h a n d s w e r e t i e d a nd

14 t h e r e wa s n o t h i n g t h a t c o u l d be done a b o u t i t .

15 Q You remember h im u s i n g th e words "dan ge rous

16 d e c i s i o n " ?

17 A Yes .

18 Q Do you remember him u s i n g t h e words "b roke t h e

19 l aw"?

20 A We l l , I t o l d him t h e la w t h a t t h e y w e r e

21 b r e a k i n g an d h e a g r e e d .



1 b r o k en?

2 A I t was a - - i t wa s a l i n e i n t h e , i t wa s a

3 s e c t i o n i n t h e a v i a t i o n and t r a n s p o r t a t i o n s e c u r i t y

4 a c c o u n t .

5 Do you g o t t h a t f i l e ?

6 MR. NOONE: No .

7 BY MS. CALAGUAS:

8 Q As b e s t you can r e c a l l i t , t h e r e was some

9 p r o v i s i o n o f ASAC t h a t you b e l i e v e d was b e i n g b roken?

10 A No , I knew was b e i n g broken .

11 Q You ma y n o t remember t h e s p e c i f i c l a n g u a g e ,

12 b u t can you g e n e r a l l y d e s c r i b e t o me what a b o u t ASAC

13 t h a t you t h o u g h t wa s b e i n g b ro ke n?

14 A Yes , l ong d i s t a n c e a i r c r a f t t h a t f lew

15 non- s top , j u s t l i k e t h e f o u r a i r c r a f t s t h a t were

16 h i g h j a c k e d and f lown i n t o t h e g r ou nd on S e p t e m b e r 1 1 t h .

17 I b e l i e v e i t s p e c i f i c a l l y s a i d S e p t e m b e r 11 t h ,

18 a nd i t s a i d - - I d o n ' t remember, i t was e i t h e r l ong'!

19 h a u l o r l ong d i s t a n c e f l i g h t s t h a t were n o n - s t o p . I

20 b e l i e v e t h a t wa s some of t h e l a n g u a g e i n t h a t l a w.

21 Q I n d i s c u s s i n g t h e c a n c e l l a t i o n o f RON m i s s i o n s



1 w e r e d i s c u s s i n g s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n fo rma t ion?

2 A I t d i d n o t m a t t e r .

3 Q Why d i d n ' t i t m a t t e r ?

4 A B e c a u s e t h e la w wa s be ing b roken and t h e

5 p u b l i c was b e i n g endange re d , and i t wa s an abuse o f

6 a u t h o r i t y . P u b l i c l i v e s were a t r i s k .

7 I t d i d n o t m a t t e r t o me whe th e r i t wa s

8 c o n f i d e n t i a l , law en fo rc em en t s e n s i t i v e , 551 , o r

9 c l a s s i f i e d i n f o r m a t i o n . I t wa s b r e a k i n g t h e law and i t

10 wa s e n d a n g e r i n g l i f e .

11 Q What e l s e wa s d i s c u s s e d w i t h Mr . S c o f f i e l d ?

12 A T h a t ' s a l l I c an remember.

13 Q How l ong would you say t h i s c o n v e r s a t i o n

14 l a s t e d ?

15 A Probab ly l e s s t han 15 m i n u t e s .

16 Q An d when you s a i d t h a t he ag reed w i t h y o u r

17 s t a t e m e n t t h a t you b e l i e v e d t h a t t h e c a n c e l l a t i o n o f

18 RON m i s s i o n s wa s b r e a k i n g t h e l aw, ho w d i d he show h i s

19 ag r e e men t?

20 A He s a i d , " I ag ree w i t h you, f u l l h e a r t e d l y . "

21 Q Those were h i s words?

Page 94

i!



1 I d o n ' t know e x a c t l y what he s a i d . I d o n ' t

2 want t o do an e x a c t quo te , b u t he s a i d t h a t t h e r e wa s

3 n o t h i n g t h a t c o u l d be done a b o u t i t . There wa s no

4 money and , t h e r e f o r e , t h e miss ions h ad t o be c a n c e l e d .

5 Q So, d u r i n g t h i s c o n v e r s a t i o n , you d i d n ' t a sk

6 him whe the r o r n o t t h e c a n c e l l a t i o n o f RON miss ions wa s

7 s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y ' i n f o r m a t i o n ?

8 A I t o l d him i t wa s a v i o l a t i o n o f F e d e r a l l aw.

9 Q My q u e s t i o n i s , d i d you a sk him whe the r o r n o t

10 i t was SS1?

11 A N o .

12 Q Were you on du ty when you r e c e i v e d t h e t e x t

13 message?


15 Q When you r e c e i v e d t h e t e x t message , i t d i d n ' t

16 c o n t a i n a l a b e l t h a t i t was SS1, c o r r e c t ?


18 Q A t t h e t ime t h a t you r e c e i v e d i t , d i d you

19 wonder w h e t h e r o r no t i t wa s SS1?

20 A N o .

21 Q A t a ny t ime , d i d you wonder w h e t h e r o r n o t i t

Page 95 I]jj

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11

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11



1 A No . Can I con t inue?

2 Q You ' r e n o t f i n i s h e d w i t h y o u r r e s p o n s e ?

3 A No .

4 Q Okay, go ahead .

5 A A c t u a l l y , I d i d n ' t b e l i e v e t h a t t h e t e x t

6 m e s s a g e wa s a c t u a l l y f a c t u a l , t h a t i t was a m i s t a k e .

7 T h a t ' s wh y I wanted t o s p e a k w i t h Roger

8 S c o f f i e l d a b o u t i t . I wanted t o s p e a k t o somebody i n

9 c h a rg e a b o u t i t .

10 Q At t h e t i m e t h a t y ou s p o k e w i t h Mr . S c o f f i e l d ,

11 had you a l r e a d y c o n t a c t e d OIG?

12 A I a l r e a d y h a d known - - I h a d s p o k e n t o

13 somebody e l s e , I d o n ' t remember, b u t I had spoken t o a

14 f e l l o w A i r M a r s h a l .

15 I c a l l e d him up an d a s k e d him if i t was a f a c t

16 t h a t t h e y w e r e - - t h a t e v e r y t h i n g wa s b e i n g c a n c e l e d

17 and t h e y h ad s a i d t h e y c a l l e d o p e r a t i o n s and w e r e t o l d1

18 so .,i

19 Q So, a f t e r you c h e c k e d w i t h a n o t h e r F e d e r a l A i r

20 Mar s h a l , wa s i t a t t h a t p o i n t y ou c o n t a c t e d OIG?

21 A I b e l i e v e s o . I 'm a l mo s t c e r t a i n t h a t I spok e

k



Page 97

1 Q Why d i d you c o n t a c t OIG?

2 A B e c a u s e i t wa s a v i o l a t i o n o f t h e l a w.

3 Q So, what was y o u r p u r p o s e o f c a l l i n g OIG?

4 A To r e p o r t a v i o l a t i o n o f l a w. An d t h e y were

5 t h e o n l y p e o p l e t h a t I knew t h a t c o u l d a d d r e s s such an

6 i s s u e .

7 Q What d i d OIG sa y i n r e s p o n s e t o y o u r

8 r e p o r t i n g , i f any th ing?

9 A I s p o k e t o an o p e r a t o r an d t h e y s a i d t h a t t h i s

10 h a d t o be some th ing t h a t h a d t o b e d i s c u s s e d w i t h my

11 c h a i n o f command.

12 They w e r e n ' t i n t e r e s t e d . I g o t t h e f e e l i n g

13 t h e y w e r e v e r y much u n i n t e r e s t e d i n my c l a i m .

14 Q So, d i d you s peak t o Mr . S c o f f i e l d b e c a u s e OIG

15 s a i d t o go t o y o u r c h a i n o f command?

16 A Yes .

i

17 Q What makes you t h i n k t h a t OIG wa s u n i n t e r e s t e d

18 i n y o u r r e p o r t i n g ?

19 A B e c a u s e I wanted t o spe ak t o an i n v e s t i g a t o r .

Ii

I;

11

20 An d t h e y t o l d me no i n v e s t i g a t o r s w e r e

21 a v a i l a b l e a t t h e t ime , and t hen t h e y t o l d me t o



Page 98

1 O a k l a n d f i e l d o f f i c e .

2 Q D id yo u do t h a t ?

3 A I c a l l e d t h e r e an d I spoke t o a S p e c i a l A g e n t

4 Davidson i n t h e Oakland o f f i c e , a nd he p r e t t y much s a i d

5 t h a t i t was n o t a n i s s u e t h a t he c o u l d d e a l w i t h . He

6 seemed v e r y u n i n t e r e s te d a l s o .

7 Q D id you spea k t o anyone e l s e a b o u t t h i s b e f o r e

8 t a l k i n g t o Meeks?

9 A I t h i n k I s p o k e t o s e v e r a l A i r M a r s h a l s a b o u t

10 i t .

11 Q Anyone e l s e ?

12 A N ot t h a t I c a n t h i n k o f .

13 Q P r i o r t o speak ing w i t h Meeks, yo u h ad some

14 s o r t o f r e l a t i o n s h i p w i t h him a l r e a d y , r i g h t ?

15 A I knew t h a t he wa s r e p o r t i n g on A i r Marsh a l

16 i s s u e s . T h a t ' s a l l I knew o f Meeks.

17 Q How d i d yo u know t h a t ?

18 A B e c a u s e I r e a d h i s a r t i c l e s b e f o r e and I knew

19 t o c o n t a c t him. He ha d a l s o be a t t e m p t i n g t o c o n t a c t

20 me s i n c e I wa s t h e Execu t ive Vi c e P r e s i d e n t o f t h e

21 F e d e r a l Law E n f o r c e m e n t O f f i c e r s A s s o c i a t i o n , t h e



1 Q So, how many t i m e s d i d you sp eak t o Meeks

2 a b o u t t h i s t e x t message?

3 A J u s t once . I t c o u l d have b e e n maybe I g o t

4 ba c k w i t h him i n a phone c a l l l a t e r , b u t I t h i n k p r e t t y

5 much i t wa s a l l one t i m e .

6 Q An d was t h i s t h e f i r s t t i m e t h a t yo u had

7 spoken w i t h Meeks?

8 A Ye s .

9 Q So , when he t r i e d t o g e t a h o l d o f y ou b e f o r e ,

10 you d i d n ' t r e t u r n h i s phone c a l l s ?

11 A No, he u s u a l l y w o u l d s en d me e - m a i l s .

12 Q Did you communica te w i t h Meeks b y e - m a i l ,

13 t h e n , b e f o r e t a l k i n g t o him a b o u t t h i s t e x t message?

14 A I d o n ' t u n d e r s t a n d what y o u ' r e a s k i n g . Could

15 yo u a s k me t h e q u e s t i o n ? Yo u ' r e a s k i n g me i f I ' v e

16 s p o k e n t o him on o t h e r s u b j e c t s p r i o r ?

17 Q Befo re t h i s , y e s .

18 A On a d i f f e r e n t i s s u e ?

19 Q A t a l l a t t h i s p o i n t .

20 A No . Thi s i s t h e o n l y t o p i c I d i s c u s s e d w i t h

21 him.

'jPage 99 i

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1 an y d i s c u s s i o n s w i t h Meeks, whe th e r b y t e l e p h o n e o r b y

2 e - m a i l , b e f o r e t h e t ime t h a t yo u c o n t a c t e d him a b o u t

3 t h i s t e x t m e s s a g e ?

4 A No .

5 Q So, ho w d i d yo u know how t o g e t a h o l d o f

6 Meeks?

7 A He h as h i s - - i n h i s e - m a i l , he l e a v e s h i s

8 phone number.

9 Q An d t h a t ' s t h e number t h a t yo u c a l l e d ?

10 A Ye s .

11 Q What was y o u r p u r p o s e o f c a l l i n g Meeks?

12 A To t e l l him t h a t t h e agency was b r e a k i n g t h e

13 law a n d wa s e n d a n g e r i n g t h e p u b l i c by c a n c e l i n g RON

14 m i s s i o n s .

15 Q A t t h i s t i m e t h a t y ou c a l l e d him, d i d you

16 s t i l l h a v e a copy o f t h e t e x t m e s s a g e s a v e d o n y o u r

17 phone?

18 A No.

19 Q So , i n d e s c r i b i n g t h e t e x t m e s s a g e t o him,

20 were you g o i n g o f f o f your memory?

Ii,1 A Yes .



1 c e l l p h o n e t h a t y o u h a d a t t h e t i m e ?


3 Q Do you know w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e t e x t m e s s a g e

4 c o n t a i n e d a n y o t h e r i n f o r m a t i o n a s i d e f rom what you

5 r e l a y e d t o B r o c k Meeks?


7 Q But you know i t d i d n ' t c o n t a i n an S SI l a b e l ?

8 A C o r r e c t .

9 Q I n r e c e i v i n g a t e x t m e s s a g e , do you h a v e ,

10 l i k e , a r e a s o n l i n e ?

11 A A w h a t ?

12 Q A r e a s o n l i n e , l i k e i n t h e h e a d e r .

13 Do you h a v e a h e a d e r f o r t e x t m e s s a g e s ? L e t

14 me a s k you t h a t .

15 A No .

16 Q Do you know who t h e s e n d e r o f t h e t e x t m e s s a g e

17 was?

18 A No, I d o n ' t remember.

19 Q I n r e c e i v i n g t h i s t e x t m e s s a g e , c o u l d you t e l l

!

20 who t h e s e n d e r was?




1 m e s s a g e s on t h i s c e l l phone?

2 A Anybody.

3 Q D id you t e l l Mr . Meeks a n y t h i n g a b o u t who s e n t

4 y o u t h e t e x t message?

5 A No . I t o l d him i t came from O p e r a t i o n s .

6 Q How d i d you know i t came from O p e r a t i o n s ?

7 A I b e l i e v e i t h a d a - - u s u a l l y , t h e r e wa s

8 a - - when t h e y s e n t o u t t e x t m e s s a g e s , t h e y carne from a

9 g e n e r a l e - m a i l a c c o u n t t h a t j u s t s a i d " O p e r a t i o n s . "

10 U s u a l l y t h e y gave - - I 'm assuming t h e y gave

11 t h e p e o p l e who work i n O p e r a t i o n s a c c e s s t o t h e

12 a c c o u n t , a nd whoever would go o n t h e r e , t h e r e was a

13 p r e s e t , e v e r y b o d y ' s c e l l phone t e x t a d d r e s s so t h e y

14 c o u l d s end o u t b r o a d c a s t s .

15 So I 'm assuming e v e r y b o d y i n t h e L as Vegas

16 f i e l d o f f i c e g o t t h a t t e x t m e s s a g e .

17 Q So, yo u do r e c a l l t h a t t h e t e x t m e s s a g e came

18 from O p e r a t i o n s ?


20 When you a sked b e f o r e I t h o u g h t y ou m e a n t i t

21 wa s from a n i n d i v i d u a l .I t

came from t h e O p e r a t i o n s

1Page 102 1

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1 i n d i v i d u a l .

2 Q When you w e r e speak ing wi th o t h e r FAMS abou t

3 t h i s t e x t message , d i d you v e r i f y t h a t t h e y too a l s o

4 r e c e i v e d t h e same t e x t message?

5 A C o r r e c t . I a l s o v e r i f i e d t h a t t hey h ad

6 r e c e i v e d t h e same i n f o r m a t i o n abou t t h e f a c t t h a t t h e

7 m i s s i o n s were b e i n g c a n c e l e d .

8 Q The FAMS t h a t you d i d speak t o abou t t h i s t e x t

9 m e s sage , were t h e y a l l from t h e Las Vegas f i e l d o f f i c e ?

10 A Yes .

11 Q Did you speak t o a ny o t h e r FAMS a b o u t t h i s

12 t e x t message t h a t w e r e n o t o u t o f t h e Las Vegas f i e l d

13 o f f i c e ?


15 Q When you s h a r e d t h i s t e x t message w i t h Brock

16 Meeks, d i d you have an u n d e r s t a n d i n g a s t o what he

17 would do w i t h t h e i n f o r m a t i o n ?

18 A Yes, I knew he wa s going t o r e p o r t i t . He wa s

19 going t o w r i t e a s t o r y a b o u t i t , immedia te ly, and he

20 wa s a l s o go ing t o c o n t a c t s e n a t o r s and o t h e r

21 r e s p o n s i b l e Government e mp loyee s .



Page 104

1 r e m a i n anonymous?

2 A Ye s . I n t h e a r t i c l e , I a s k e d t o r e m a i n

3 anonymous .

4 Q D id you know w h e t h e r o r n o t h e w o u l d q u o t e you

5 a s someone t h a t was anonymous?

6 A He p romised t h a t he w o u l d n ' t q u o t e me , t h a t he

7 w o u l d n ' t u s e my name.

8 Q He w o u l d n ' t u s e y o u r name, b u t you u n d e r s t o o d

9 t h a t h e w o u l d b e q u o t i n g t h e t e x t m e s s a g e t h a t you

10 s h a r e d w i t h him, c o r r e c t ?

11 A I d o n ' t know. I d o n ' t remember t h a t much.

12 Q D i d y o u t e l l him n o t t o q u o t e t h e t e x t m e s s a g e

13 t h a t y ou s h a r e d w i t h him?

14 A No, I d i d n ' t a s k him.

15 Q How d i d you know t h a t h e would c o n t a c t.J

16 S e n a t o r s ?

Ii11

17 He t o l d me s o .

18 D i d y o u c o n t a c t any s e n a t o r s a b o u t t h i s t e x t

19 message?

20 A No .

21 Q Did you c o n t a c t any o t h e r Government o f f i c i a l s



1 A No , j u s t OIG, a nd S c o f f i e l d , an d f e l l o w A i r

2 M a r s h a l s .

3 Q Do you know w h e t h e r o r n o t Meeks e v e r

4 c o n t a c t e d a n y S e n a t o r s o r any o t h e r Government

5 o f f i c i a l s ?


7 Q Did you h a v e a n y o t h e r f o l l o w - u p d i s c u s s i o n s

8 w i t h Meeks a s i d e from t h i s one?

9 A Ye s .

10 Q About t h i s t o p i c ?

11 A I t h i n k I d i d . I 'm i n t h e s u r e .

12 Q Befo re wh y t a l k a b o u t t h a t , w h a t e l s e was

13 d i s c u s s e d i n - - you s a i d i t wa s a p h o n e c a l l , c o r r e c t ?


15 Q What e l s e wa s d i s c u s s e d i n t h i s p h o n e c a l l

16 when you f i r s t s h a r e d w i t h him t h e c o n t e n t o f t h e t e x t

17 message?

18 A O t h e r t h a n t h e c a n c e l l a t i o n o f l o n g - h a u l

19 f l i g h t s ?

20 Q Yes , a n y t h i n g e l s e d i s c u s s e d ?

21 A No . Not t o my knowledge .



1 i n f o r m a t i o n I p o s s i b l y gave , bu t t he whole s u b j e c t wa s

2 i n r e g a r d s t o l o n g - h a u l f l i g h t s be ing cance l ed .

3 Q D id you e x p l a i n t o Meeks what a RON m i s s i o n

4 was?

5 A Yes .

6 Q He d i d n ' t a l r e a d y know?


8 Q You remember having t h a t d i s c u s s i o n ?

9 A C o r r e c t .

10 Q So, what abou t RON miss ions t h a t you d i s c u s s e d

11 wi th him i n t h i s c o n v e r s a t i o n ?

12 A I t o l d him t h a t t h i s wa s go ing t o l e a v e t h e

13 same t ype o f a i r c r a f t t h a t were h i g h j a c k e d on 9 / 11 , wa s

14 go ing t o l e a v e t h o s e a i r c r a f t v u l n e r a b l e , because t h o s e

15 were t h e a i r c r a f t t h a t were go ing t o be u n p r o t e c t e d .

16 Q Any o t h e r d i s c u s s i o n s abou t RON m i s s i o n s ?

17 A Would you l i k e me t o r ev i ew t h e a r t i c l e ?

18 Q Wel l , do you b e l i e v e t h a t - -

19 A We can go l i n e - b y - l i n e .

20 Q Do you b e l i e v e t h a t t h e a r t i c l e c o n t a i n e d

21 e v e r y t h i n g t h a t wa s d i s c u s s e d between you a nd Meeks?

h I b l h

P a g e 106 i1!lt

1jjj,i1

j



1 o t h e r i s s u e s a b o u t c a n c e l l a t i o n o f t r a i n i n g , o t h e r

2 bu d g e t c u t b a c k s t h a t I d i d n ' t have a n y d i r e c t knowledge

3 o f .

4 Q So, i f you d i d n ' t have an y d i r e c t knowledge o f

5 c a n c e l l a t i o n o f t r a i n i n g , would t h a t h a v e b e e n

6 s o m e th ing t h a t y ou d i s c u s s e d w i t h Mr . Meeks i n t h a t

7 phone c o n v e r s a t i o n ?

8 A No , b e c a u s e I w o u l d n ' t c a r e .

9 Q You w o u l d n ' t c a r e a b o u t t h e c a n c e l l a t i o n o f

10 t r a i n i n g ?

11 A No .

12 Q Why n o t ?

13 A Because I d i d n ' t want t o go . I d i d n ' t w a n t t o

14 go t o a n o t h e r s i x weeks o f t r a i n i n g .

15 Q Do y ou remember a n y t h i n g e l s e a b o u t y o u r

16 d i s c u s s i o n w i t h Mr . Meeks?

17 A T h a t ' s a l l . T h a t ' s a l l I c an remember r i g h t

18 now.

19 Q You knew t h a t he would p u b l i s h t h a t RON

20 m i s s i o n s would b e c a n c e l e d , c o r r e c t ?

21 A I knew t h a t he wa s g o i n g t o p u b l i s h t h e f a c t

Page 107 ~

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1 A i r M a r s h a l s .

2 Q Did you know t h a t he would p u b l i s h a n y

3 s p e c i f i c r e f e r e n c e s t o RON m i s s i o n s a t t h e t i m e t h a t

4 you h ad t h i s d i s c u s s i o n w i t h him?

5 A P l e a s e r e p h r a s e .

6 Q D id you know t h a t h e would r e f e r t o RON

7 m i s s i o n s i n h i s r e p o r t ?

8 A No, n o . I t ' s a p o s s i b i l i t y b e c a u s e I

9 d i s c u s s e d i t w i t h him. I h ad no i d e a w h a t h e p l a n n e d

10 t o p u b l i s h o t h e r t h a n t h e f a c t t h a t t h e l aw was b e i n g

11 b r o ken an d p e o p l e w e r e b e i n g end an ge red .

12 Q An d you d i d n ' t a s k him s p e c i f i c a l l y t o n o t

13 p u b l i s h a n y t h i n g a b o u t RON m i s s i o n s , c o r r e c t ?


15 Q So, what was y o u r p u r p o s e i n c o n t a c t i n g Meeks?

16 A To r e p o r t t h a t t h e r e wa s a v i o l a t i o n o f law

17 an d a d a n g e r t o p u b l i c s a f e t y b e c a u s e 9 / 11 - t y p e

18 a i r c r a f t were n o t b e i n g p r o t e c t e d by A i r M a r s h a l s d ue

19 t o an a b u s e o f a u t h o r i t y d e c i s i o n made b y Homeland

120 S e c u r i t y o f f i c i a l s .

21 Q Do yo u r e g r e t no w h a v i n g c o n t a c t e d Meeks?



1 Q Why n o t ?

2 A B e c a u s e I d i d t h e r i g h t t h i n g . I s a ved l i v e s ,

3 a nd I r e p o r t e d when t h e law wa s be ing b r o k e n . T h a t wa s

4 r e p o r t e d .

5 An d t h e a g e n c y, o f c o u r s e , r e v e r s e d i ts

6 d e c i s i o n immed ia t e ly, so , I b e l i e v e I wa s c o r r e c t i n

7 making t h a t d i s c l o s u r e .

8 Q Did you c o n s i d e r t h a t you were r i s k i n g l i v e s

9 by making t h i s d i s c l o s u r e ?

10 A N e v e r. I wa s s a v i n g l i v e s o n l y .

11 Q You saw no r i s k t o a ny l i v e s i n making t h i s

12 d i s c l o s u r e t o a news r e p o r t e r ?

13 A None.

14 Q To t h i s d a y, you s e e no r i s k t o an y l i v e s i n

15 making t h i s d i s c l o s u r e t o a r e p o r t e r ?

16 A I f t h e same haza r do us d e c i s i o n i s made a g a i n ,

17 I w o u l d n o t h e s i t a t e t o r e p o r t i t a g a i n .

18 At t h e t ime I wa s r a t h e r n a i v e . T h i s t ime I

19 p r o b a b l y would u se more d i r e c t c h a n n e l s t h r o u g h

20 a t t o r n e y s , t h rough S e n a t o r s , t h r o u g h C o n g r e s s m e n .

21 B ut a tt h e

t i me , I f e l ti t

wa s an imminent

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Page 109l

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1 t h e o n l y wa y t o g e t t h e p o l i c y r e v e r s e d a nd s t o p p e d .

2 Q At t h i s t i m e , had you been co nce rn ed a b o u t a ny

3 PAM p o l i c i e s ?

4 A T h a t p o l i c y ?

5 Q Any p o l i c i e s . At t h i s t ime i n J u l y o f ' 03 ,

6 d i d y ou have any o t h e r c o n c e r n s a b o u t FAM p o l i c i e s ?

7 A Yes .

8 Q Did you make t h o s e c o n c e r n s known t o a n y o n e i n

9 t h e a gency e v e r b e f o r e J u l y o f 2003?

10 A Yeah . Ye s .

11 MS. CALAGUAS: T h i s m i g h t b e a good p l a c e t o

12 t a k e a b r e a k .

13 MR. NOONE: Okay.

14 MS. CALAGUAS: L e t ' s go of f t h e r e c o r d .

15 (A l u n c h b r e a k wa s t a k e n . )

16

17

18

19

20

21

Page 110

!i

i.e



1 A F T E R N 0 0 N S E S S I O N

2 EXAMINATION (RESUMED)

3 BY MS. CALAGUAS:

4 Q Mr . MacLean, you u n d e r s t a n d t h a t y o u ' r e s t i l l

5 u n d e r o a t h ?

6 A C o r r e c t .

7 Q An d d u r i n g t h e l u nc h b r e a k , d i d yo u d i s c u s s

8 y o u r t e s t i m o n y w i t h anyone?

9 A Only my Cou ns e l .

10 Q Dur ing t h e b r e a k , I , yo u h a d t a k e a look a t

11 what w e ' r e m a r k i n g a s E x h i b i t 9 .



14 BY MS. CALAGUAS:

15 Q Do yo u r e c o g n i z e t h a t document?

16 A Yes .

17 Q What i s i t , f i r s t ?

18 A I t ' s a t r a n s c r i p t o f my i n t e r v i e w w i t h t h e

19 ICE/OPR.

20 Q Why d i d you r e q u e s t a t r a n s c r i p t o f y o u r

21 i n t e r v i e w w i t h ICE/OPR?



1 Q P r i o r t o r e q u e s t i n g a copy o f t h e t r a n s c r i p t ,

2 yo u h ad s i g n e d an a f f i d a v i t a s p a r t o f t h a t ICE/OPR

3 i n v e s t i g a t i o n , c o r r e c t ?

4 A Ye s .

5 Q Was t h e r e a s o n f o r r e q u e s t i n g t h e t r a n s c r i p t

6 wa s t h a t y ou b e l i e v e d y o u r a f f i d a v i t t o be i n a c c u r a t e ?

7 A Yeah , I b e l i e v e t h e r e was s o m e t h i n g i n t h e r e

8 t h a t I f o r g o t t o a dd t o t h e a f f i d a v i t . B u t on f u r t h e r

9 r e v i e w, t h e r e w a s n ' t .

10 Q Do you t h e n b e l i e v e t h e t r a n s c r i p t s t h a t a r e

11 s e t o u t i n E x h i b i t 9 t o be a c c u r a t e ?

12 A Yes .

13 Q I 'd l i k e t h e r e c o r d t o r e f l e c t t h a t t h e

14 t r a n s c r i p t d o e s c o n t a i n some r e d a c t i o n s ; i s t h a t

15 c o r r e c t ?


17 Q Do you have a r e c o l l e c t i o n o f w h a t t h o s e

18 r e d a c t i o n s w e r e ?

19 A Ye s .

20 Q What would t h a t have been?

21 A Names.

Page 112 ~ii'l

i]~



Page 11 3

1 t h a t a n y t h i n g e l s e wa s r edac ted a s i d e from t hese?

2 A No, I d o n ' t .

3 Q Le t me have yo u look a t what w e ' l l mark as

4 E x h i b i t 10.

5 (Exh ib i t 10 wa s marked by th e


7 BY MS . CALAGUAS:

8 Q Have you r ev i ewed t h e document?

9 A I have .

10 Q I s t h a t your s i g n a t u r e on th e l a s t page of the

11 document?

12 A Yes, i t i s .

13 Q What i s th e document, f o r t h e r e c o r d ?

14 A Ass igned a f f i d a v i t t h a t I gave t o the o f f i c e

15 of ICE and OPR.

16 Q During your i n t e rv iew w i t h ICE/OPR, you

17 d i s c u s s e d how yo u f e l t t h a t TSA, o r I shou ld say i n

18 t h i s c a s e , t h a t th e FAMS h i g h e r l e v e l employees made

19 SSI d i s c l o s u r e s ; i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?


21 Q What d i d yo u mean by t h a t ?



Page 114

1 p r o j e c t s .

2 Q S p e c i f i c a l l y , what type of i n f o r m a t i o n d i d you

3 b e l i e v e t h a t FAMS employees - - w e l l , l e t me b a c k t r a c k

4 f o r a s e c o n d .

5 Which FAMS employees d id you b e l i e v e were

6 d i s c l o s i n g SSI?

7A

Thomas Quinn, David Adams, an d anybody e l s e

8 who wa s i n t h e P u b l i c I n f o r m a t i o n o f f i c e o r t h e O f f i c e

9 o f t h e D i r e c t o r .

10 Q What d id you c a l l Adams' o f f i c e , b y t h e way,

11 P u b l i c - -

12 A I t h i n k i t ' s t h e P u b l i c A f f a i r s o f f i c e .

13 Q What SS I wa s be ing d i s c l o s e d by any o f t h e

14 i n d i v i d u a l s t h a t you had i d e n t i f i e d ?

15 A C h e c k p o i n t s b y p a s s i n g p r o c e d u r e s , a i r c r a f t

16 b o a r d i n g p r o c e d u r e s , mandatory h o t e l p o l i c y , d r e s s i n g

17 and grooming c o d e s , FAM t a c t i c s , s e a t a s s i g n m e n t s ,

18 numbers o f FAMS on a i r c r a f t . Type o f weapon us ed b y

19 A ir Mar sha l s . Type o f t r a i n i n g c o n d u c t e d by A ir

20 M a r s h a l s . How t h e A i r M a r s h a l s r e a c t t o a g i v e n

21 s i t u a t i o n caused by a b ad e l e m e n t o r t e r r o r i s t s .

22 I t h i n k t h a t c ov e r s e v e r y t h i n g .



1 Q Can you r e c o l l e c t t h a t no w w i t h o u t hav ing t o

2 t a k e a l o o k a t any documents?

3 A Yes .

4 Q So, t h a t ' s y o u r unde r s t and ing , t hen , a s t o

5 what you b e l i e v e d t h a t t h e s e i n d i v i d u a l s were

6 d i s c l o s i n g a s SSI?

7 A C o r r e c t .

8 Q How do you know t h a t t h a t l i s t o f i n f o r m a t i o n

9 i s SSI?

10 A B e c a u s e i t compromised FAM i d e n t i t y , t a c t i c s ,

11 o p e r a t i o n s , p r o c e d u r e s on n a t i o n a l t e l e v i s i o n .

12 Q Are you r e l y i n g on any p a r t i c u l a r document i n

13 d e t e r m i n i n g whe the r o r n o t t h a t l i s t i s 88I?

14 A No , I 'm r e l y i n g on t h e f a c t t h a t I used t o be

15 an A ir Marsha l , an d t h e s e were i s s u e s t h a t compromised

16 my p o s i t i o n on a d a i l y b a s i s . And a l s o p e o p l e t h a t I

17 worked w i t h .

18 Q Your i n t e r v i e w w i t h ICE/OPR t ook p l a c e on o r

19 a b o u t May 4 t h , 2005?


21 Q So, a t t h a t t ime , i n may 2005 , you b e l i e v e d

Page 11 5

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1 d i s c l o s e d SSI?

2 A They d i s c l o s e d s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n

3 b y t h e i r d e f i n i t i o n .

4 Q When do you b e l i e v e " they d i s c l o s e d SSI by

5 t h e i r d e f i n i t i o n " ?

6 A Numerous t i m e s . They were on CNN, ABC News,

7 FOX News, NBC, Time Magazine , Pe op l e Magazine . To t e l l

8 you t he e x a c t d a t e s o f when t h o s e programs a i r e d , I

9 d o n ' t r e c a l l . I b e l i e v e t h e r e c o r d h as a l l t h a t

10 i n f o r m a t i o n . I j u s t d o n ' t know o f f t h e top o f my head .

11 I j u s t know t h e ne tw orks t h a t t h e y d i v u l g e d

12 and i n f o r m a t i o n .

13 Q Do you t h i n k you can p l a c e t h a t d i s c l o s u r e as

14 e a r l y a s 2003?

15 A No, I d o n ' t remember. P r i o r to t h a t , i t

16 probab ly s t a r t e d - - I b e l i e v e i t s t a r t e d b e f o r e t h a t ,

17 y e s .

18 Q B e f o r e 2003?


20 Q So, a t t h e t ime t h a t you s h a r e d t h e t e x t

21 message w i t h Brock Meeks i n l a t e J u l y o f 2003, you were

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Page 117

1 A f f a i r s o f f i c e d i s c l o s i n g 88 1 t h emse lv e s?

2 A Yes . I 'm n o t s u r e i t wa s a t t h e t i m e t h e - - I

3 b e l i e v e t h a t was u n d e r T8A.

4 Yes , I b e l i e v e t h a t th e D i r e c t o r s o f f i c e a nd

5 t h e P u b l i c A f f a i r s o f f i c e wa s d i v u l g i n g s e n s i t i v e


7 Q An d you b e l i e v e t h a t b e c a u s e t h e y i d e n t i f i e d

8 t h e i n f o r m a t i o n a s s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n when

9 t h e y w e r e d i v u l g i n g i t ; i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?

10 A I d o n ' t know i f - - by t h e d e f i n i t i o n s t h a t t h e

11 a g e n c y h a s g i v e n me o f t h e i r d e f i n i t i o n o f 881 , t h a t ' s

12 what I c o n c l u d e d .

13 Q And, a g a i n , y o u r c o n c l u s i o n wa s made b e f o r e

14 you met w i t h Brock Meeks i n J u l y o f 2003?


16 Q D id you b e l i e v e t h a t t h e i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t was

17 d i s c l o s e d - - s t r i k e t h a t . i;;,

1I8 Do you know who David Grayson i s ?

19 A I b e l i e v e h e ' s somebody t h a t h a n d l e s t h e

20 c l a s s i f i c a t i o n o f m a t e r i a l a t h e a d q u a r t e r s .

21 Q How d i d y ou become aware o f t h a t ?



1 Q Did you have a ny d i s c u s s i o n s w i t h Mr . Grayson

2 eve r?

3 A No .

4 Q You b e l i e v e t h a t y o u ' r e a w h i s t l e b lower,

5 c o r r e c t ?

6 A I am a w h i s t l e b lo wer, c o r r e c t .

7 Q So, when d i d you f i r s t engage i n w h i s t l e

8 b l o w ing a c t i v i t y , as you unde r s t and i t ?

9 A When I r e p o r t e d t o Brock Meeks t h a t t h e age nc y

10 wa s b r e a k i n g t h e law i n J u l y o f 2003 , a t th e same t ime

11 t h a t Homeland S e c u r i t y i s s u e d a memo on J u l y 6 t h t h a t

12 t e r r o r i s t s wanted t o h i g h j a c k f l i g h t s l e a v i n g t h e E a s t

13 C o a s t , a nd h i d i n g weapons i n camer a s .

14 Q Righ t a round th e same p e r i o d o f t i m e , do you

15 remember t h e FAMS D i r e c t o r s o f f i c e i s s u i n g any memos

16 a b o u t s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n , whe the r by wa y o f

17 an e - m a i l o r - -

18 A Not s p e c i f i c a l l y , I d o n ' t remember.

19 Q Do you remember b e i n g n o t i f i e d by an y

20 s u p e r v i s o r ?

21 A I 'm s o r r y ?

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Page 119

1 remember any s u p e r v i s o r i n fo rming yo u t h a t - - w e l l ,

2 s a y i n g a n y t h i n g a b o u t SSI a t t h i s p o i n t ?

3 A I s i g n e d a document s t a t i n g t h a t I u n d e r s t a n d

4 what SSI i s , a s you p r e s e n t e d t o me e a r l i e r .

5 Q You s p e c i f i c a l l y remember s i g n i n g t h a t

6 document i n l a t e J u l y o f 20D3?

7 A No.

8 Q A t some p o i n t , you d id?

9 A I ' l l concede t h a t I s i g n e d t h e document. I

10 j u s t d o n ' t remember s i g n i n g i t .

11 Q But yo u remember some s o r t o f memo from DHS?

12 A Yes .

13 Q So, t h a t ' s t h e p e r i o d o f t ime t h a t I 'm t a l k i n g

14 abou t , t hen . You d e s c r i b e d t h a t a s b e i n g l i k e a round

15 J u l y 25 th o r so ?

16 A T h a t wa s what th e i n t e l l i g e n c e i n f o r m a t i o n

17 s a i d , an d I g o t t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n from t h e news

18 a r t i c l e s .

19 When t h i s wa s passed down a s i n t e l l i g e n c e

20 i n f o r m a t i o n t o A ir Marsha l s , i t c o u l d have been a ny

21 t ime b e f o r e J u l y 26 th .



Page 120

1 i n t e l l i g e n c e i n f o r m a t i o n o f F e d e r a l A i r Mar sh a l s ?

2 A T h a t ' s a p o s s i b i l i t y .

3 Q Do you remember r e c e i v i n g i t a s i n t e l l i g e n c e



6 Q R i g h t a b o u t t h e t ime t h a t you became a w a r e o f

7 t h i s i n f o r m a t i o n , t h i s i n t e l i n f o r m a t i o n , do you

8 remember any f u r t h e r d i s c u s s i o n a b o u t S S I , w h e t h e r i t

9 be t h r o u g h a memo from t h e d i r e c t o r o r from y o u r

10 s u p e r v i s o r s ?

11 A No, I d o n ' t .

12 Q So, w e r e t h e r e any o t h e r a c t i o n s by you t h a t

13 you c o n s i d e r e d t o be w h i s t l e b lowin g b e f o r e s p e a k i n g

14 w i t h B r o c k Meeks i n ab ou t J u l y o f 2003?

15 A No, n o t t h a t I remember.

16 Q A s i d e from t h e ICE/OPR i n v e s t i g a t i o n , d i d you

17 i n f o r m anyone w i t h i n FAMS, t h a t yo u ha d d i s c u s s e d t h e

18 c o n t e n t s o f t h a t t e x t message t o Brock Meeks?

19 A Yes . I n s i d e t h e FAM s e r v i c e ?

20 Q Yes .

21 A No, I d i d n o t d i s c u s s i t w i t h anybody. We l l ,



1 Q I 'm s a y i n g FAM s e r v i c e , b e c a u s e I 'm n o t s u r e

2 if t h e FAMS w e r e w i t h ICE o r w i t h TSA?

3 A L e t ' s s a y FAM S e r v i c e . I t ' s k i n d o f c o n f u s i n g

4 b e t w e e n F-A-M-S an d r e g u l a r FAMS, FAM S e r v i c e a nd FAMS.

5 Q So , w i t h i n th e FAM S e r v i c e , y ou d i d n o t

6 d i s c l o s e t h a t y ou h a d s h a r e d t h e c o n t e n t ?

7 A C o r r e c t .

8 Q You d i d n ' t d i s c l o s e a n y t h i n g a b o u t Brock

9 Meeks?


11 Q So, wa s i t t h e ICE/aPR i n v e s t i g a t i o n t h a t

12 would h a v e b e e n t h e f i r s t t ime yo u d i s c l o s e d t h a t w i t h

13 anyone i n t h e agency?

14 A Ye s . I was t o l d b y t h e i n v e s t i g a t o r s d u r i n g

15 t h e i n t e r v i e w t o d i s c l o s e a l l co r r e spondence w i t h B r o c k

16 Meeks.

17 Q D id you engage i n an y o t h e r w h i s t l e b lo wi ng "

!

18 a c t i v i t y ?

19 A P r i o r t o when?

20 Q At an y t i m e .

21 A I ' v e w r i t t e n- -

I ' v e s e n t r e p o r t s t o t h ei



Page 122

1 A f f a i r s , t o t h e TSA, an d t o t h e O f f i c e o f P r o f e s s i o n a l

2 R e s p o n s i b i l i t y o f ICE, t o my Congressman and t o my

3 S e n a t o r s .

4 Q A f t e r t h e B r o c k Meeks i n c i d e n t , when was t h e

5 n e x t t ime you e n g a g e d i n w h i s t l e b lowi ng a c t i v i t i e s , a s

6 yo u u n d e r s t a n d i t ?


8 Q With t h e e n t i t i e s t h a t y o u ' v e d e s c r i b e d a s

9 e n t i t i e s t h a t y o u ' v e d i s c l o s e d w h i s t l e b lowin g a c t i v i t y

10 t o , w h a t d i d you t a l k ab ou t ? In o t h e r words , w h a t w e r e

11 y ou w h i s t l e b lowing a b o u t , a s you u n d e r s t a n d i t ?

12 A Checkpo in t bypas s ing p r o c e d u r e s , a i r c r a f t

13 b o a r d i n g p r o c e d u r e s , d r e s s an d grooming c o d e s ,

14 ma n d a to ry h o t e l p o l i c y , and t h e FAM S e r v i c e

15 Management ' s c o n s t a n t d e s i r e t o d i v u l g e s e n s i t i v e

16 i n f o r m a t i o n - -

17 MR . NOONE: Slow down b e c a u s e s h e h a s t o

18 r e c o r d y o u r t e s t i m o n y.

19 TH E WITNESS: I 'm s o r r y - - t o news

20 o r g a n i z a t i o n s , such a s CNN and NBC

21 BY MS. CALAGUAS:

h h l d



1 c o r r e c t ?

2 A Yes .

3 Q A g a i n , t h a t i n v e s t i g a t i o n o r your i n t e r v i e w i n

4 t h a t i n v e s t i g a t i o n was a rou nd May o f 'OS?

5 A C o r r e c t .

6 Q So, d i d you e n g a g e i n w h i s t l e b l owing a c t i v i t y

7 b e f o r e May o f 'OS?

8 A I d o n ' t remember when I f i l e d t h e r e p o r t s .

9 Q A s i d e from f i l i n g t h o s e r e p o r t s - - w e r e t h e y

10 w r i t t e n r e p o r t s by t h e way?

11 A .Some w e r e w r i t t e n , some w e r e o r a l .

12 Q The w r i t t e n r e p o r t s , you p r o v i d e d t h a t t o me

13 t h r o u g h y o u r a t t o r n e y, c o r r e c t ?

14 A No . I b e l i e v e t h e a g e n c y h a s a f i l e o f a l l o f

15 them, b u t I b e l i e v e I ' v e g i v e n y ou a l l my OIG a n d aP R

16 c o m p l a i n t s and a lA .

17 Q Did you make an y w r i t t e n c o m p l a i n t s t h a t yo u

18 d i d n ' t o t h e r w i s e keep a c o p y o f f o r y o u r s e l f ?

19 A No . S o r r y, no, n o t t h a t I c an remember.

20 Q So, you ma y have f i l e d a w r i t t e n c o m p l a i n t b u t

21 yo u d i d n ' t keep a copy o f i t ?

Page 123

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II



Page 124

1 Q When you s a y t h e agency would have ha d a copy

2 o f t h i s , w h i c h a g e n c y a r e y ou t a l k i n g a b o u t ?

3 A The D e p a r t m e n t o f Homeland S e c u r i t y . U n l e s s

4 t h e r e p o r t s t h a t I s e n t t o c o n g r e s s , t h o s e a r e f i l e d

5 w i t h C o n g r e s s .

6 Q Do y ou s p e c i f i c a l l y remember s e n d i n g a r e p o r t

7 a nd f i l i n g a r e p o r t t o C o n g r e s s ?

8 A Ye s .

9 Q Can you d e s c r i b e t h a t t o me?

10 A I t was t h e copy t h a t you p r o v i d e d me from

11 S e n a t o r Reed .

12 Q I n t e r m s o f y o u r r e p o r t s t o Cong re s s , w e r e

13 t h e r e a n y o t h e r s a s i d e from t h e o n e s t o S e n a t o r Reed?

14 A I t ' s p o s s i b l e , b u t I d o n ' t remember. I know

15 o f t h a t on e b e c a u s e t h a t was a copy you p r o v i d e d f o r

16 me.

17 Q Did you e v e r l e t Mr . D o n z a n t i know t h a t you

18 h a d made t h e s e c o m p l a i n t s - - s o r r y, t h a t ' s my word .

19 Your word was r e p o r t s - - t o c o n g r e s s o r t o OIG o r t o

20 IA ?

21 A I do n o t r e c a l l s p e c i f i c a l l y d o i n g s o .



1 y o u r r e p o r t s a t any t i m e ?

2 A Yes .

3 Q Why do you have t h a t b e l i e f ?

4 A B e c a u s e o f my p o s i t i o n wi th FLEOA, t h e F e d e r a l

5 Law E n f o r c e m e n t O f f i c e r s A s s o c i a t i o n , F-L-E-O-A. I t

6 was a p u b l i c and h i g h v i s i b l e p o s i t i o n .

7 Q We l l , w e r e you making i t p u b l i c l y known t h a t

8 you were f i l i n g a r e p o r t wi th S e n a t o r Reed , f o r

9 example?

10 A N o.

11 Q Did you l e t Mr . Don za n t i know t h a t you were

12 f i l i n g a r e p o r t w i t h S e n a t o r Reed?

13 A N o.

14 Q D id y ou l e t anyone know a t t h e Los Ang e l e s

15 f i e l d o f f i c e t h a t you were f i l i n g a r e p o r t w i t h S e n a t o r

16 Reed?

17 A Frank T u r e r r i .

18 Q Frank T u r e r r i i s n o t p a r t o f t h e management a t

19 t h e f i e l d o f f i c e i n Los Ange l e s?


21 Q When I ' m a s k i n g my q u e s t i o n , I ' m s a y i n g t h a t

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Page 126

1 L e t me a l s o a s k y ou whe th e r yo u h ad i n fo rm ed

2 a n y management o f f i c i a l a t t h e Los A n g e l e s f i e l d o f f i c e

3 t h a t y ou ha d f i l e d a r e p o r t w i t h S e n a t o r Reed?

4 A No .

5 Q When I r ev i ew ed t h e r e c o r d , t h e d a t e s o f t h e

6 r e p o r t s t o IA/OIG an d S e n a t o r Reed were i n 'OS.

7 Do y ou b e l i e v e t h a t yo u h a d r e p o r t s f i l e d t o

8 an y o f t h e s e e n t i t i e s b e f o r e 2005?


10 Q Do y o u b e l i e v e t h a t a n y management l e v e l

11 o f f i c i a l a t t h e Los A n g e l e s f i e l d o f f i c e was a w a r e o f

12 y o u r r e p o r t t o IA ?


14 Q An d when you s a y " lA , " a r e yo u r e f e r r i n g t o

15 TSA's IA ?

16 A TSA's lA, c o r r e c t .

17 Q Do y ou b e l i e v e t h a t an y management l e v e l

Ii18 o f f i c i a l a t t h e Los A n g e l e s f i e l d o f f i c e was a w a r e o f

19 y o u r r e p o r t t o t h e OIG?


21Q Now,

t h i s r e p o r t t o t h eOIG

i s d i f f e r e n t from



Page 127

1 h ad c a l l e d a b o u t RON m i s s i o n s , c o r r e c t ?


3 Q What was t h i s r e p o r t t o t h e OIG a b o u t ?

4 A Checkpo in t b y p a s s p r o c e d u r e s , a i r c r a f t

5 b o a r d i n g p r o c e d u r e s , d r e s s grooming c o d e s , m a n d a t o r y

6 h o t e l p o l i c y , a n d t h e FAM S e r v i c e management ' s c o n s t a n t

7 d e s i r e t o d i v u l g e SSI t o news o r g a n i z a t i o n s .

8 Q F o r a ny o f t h e s e e n t i t i e s do you b e l i e v e t h a t

9 you were r e p o r t i n g a n y t h i n g e l s e beyond w h a t you w o u l d

10 h a v e p u t i n t h e w r i t t e n r e p o r t t h a t you s u b m i t t e d t o

11 them?


13 Q Yo u d o n ' t know o r you d o n ' t r e c a l l ?

14 A I d o n ' t r e c a l l . I d o n ' t remember. Unle s s I

15 h a v e t h e documents b e f o r e me , I c a n n o t make a n y I;

16 s p e c i f i c r e c o l l e c t i o n s .

17 Q An y o t h e r a c t i v i t y t h a t you c o n s i d e r t o b e

18 w h i s t l e b l o w i n g t h a t y ou e n g a g e d i n ?

19 A I c a n ' t remember. At t h i s p o i n t , I d o n ' t

20 know.

21 Q Did you c o n s i d e r y o u r a p p e a r a n c e on NBC

:i

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Page 128

1 A Ye s .

2 Q How s o ?

3 A I wa s r e p o r t i n g c h e c k p o i n t b y p a s s p r o c e d u r e s ,

4 a i r c r a f t b o a r d i n g p r o c e d u r e s , d r e s s an d grooming c o d e s ,

5 m a n d a t o r y h o t e l p o l i c y , an d t h e FAM S e r v i c e

6 M a n a g e m e n t ' s d e s i r e t o c o n s t a n t l y d i v u l g e s e n s i t i v e

7 s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n .

8 Q Yo u saw t h a t e p i s o d e o f NBC N i g h t l y News when

9 t h i s a i r e d , c o r r e c t ?

10 A Yes .

11 Q The p a r t t h a t a i r e d w h i c h c o n t a i n e d y o u r

12 a p p e a r a n c e , d i d t h a t i n c l u d e e v e r y t h i n g t h a t y ou j u s t

13 s a i d ?

14 A Yes - - b u t I ' m n o t s u r e . I h a v e t o r e a d t h e

15 t r a n s c r i p t t o know e x a c t l y , b u t t h o s e a r e t h e g e n e r a l

16 i s s u e s .

17 Q Do y o u know o f a n y management l e v e l o f f i c i a l

18 a t t h e Los A n g e l e s f i e l d o f f i c e was aware o f t h e n a t u r e

19 o f y o u r a p p e a r a n c e on NBC N i g h t l y News i n 2004?

20 A They d i d n o t know.

21MR . NOONE:

A t w h a t t i m e a r e y o u t a l k i n g



1 BY MS. CALAGUAS:

2 Q I 'm t a l k i n g a b o u t a t any t i m e a t t h i s p o i n t .


4 Q You d i d n o t make them s p e c i f i c a l l y a w a r e - -

5 A No.

6 Q - - t h a t yo u ap pea re d on NBC N i g h t l y News?

7 A No . The o n l y t im e t h e a g e n c y knew o f my

8 a c t i v i t i e s i s when I co mp le t ed t h i s a f f i d a v i t i n May o f

9 2005 .

10 Q When you sa y "a ge ncy, " who a r e you r e f e r r i n g

11 to ?

12 A ICE/OPR.

13 Q So, l e t me make s u r e I u n d e r s t a n d .

14 A The D e p a r t m e n t o f Homeland S e c u r i t y , ICE/OPR.

15 Q So , y o u ' r e s a y i n g t h a t when you p r o v i d e d y o u r

16 a f f i d a v i t , t h a t ' s when ICE/OPR became aware o f t h e

17 a c t i v i t y t h a t you c o n s i d e r e d t o b e w h i s t l e b l o w i n g ; i s

18 t h a t c o r r e c t ?

19 A No , t h a t ' s when I a d m i t t e d t o my a c t i v i t i e s .

20 Q I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h a t ' s when you s a y y ou

21 a d m i t t e d t oi t ,

b u t I 'm t r y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d y o u r

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1 d e p e n d i n g on where t h e FAMS b e l o n g e d , who would h a v e

2 been aware o f y o u r w h i s t l e blowing a c t i v i t y a s you

3 u n d e r s t a n d i t ?

4 A P r o b a b l y a s h o r t t i m e a f t e r S e p t e m b e r 9 t h o f

5 2004 .

6 Q Yo u b e l i e v e t h a t i n d i v i d u a l s w i t h i n t h e agency

7 would h a v e b e e n aware?

8 A They d i d know. They r e c o g n i z e d my v o i c e on

9 n a t i o n a l t e l e v i s i o n . T h a t ' s when t h ey knew o f my

10 w h i s t l e b l o w i n g a c t i v i t i e s .

11 Q Th e w h i s t l e b l o w i n g a c t i v i t y t h a t y ou b e l i e v e d

12 i n v o l v i n g y o u r a p p e a r a n c e on NBC N i g h t l y News?


14 Q W h a t ' s a n SPG member?

15 A I b e l i e v e i t ' s a h o t e l , a h o t e l membersh ip .

16 Q J u s t g i v e me a s e c o n d . We ' r e a l m o s t a t t h e

17 home s t r e t c h . Okay?

18 A Take y o u r t i m e .

19 Q I n y o u r a f f i d a v i t t o ICE/OPR, you made a

20 r e f e r e n c e t o NBC p r o d u c e r s Tom C o s t e l l o a n d M a r i a

21 G a r c i a f rom New York?

22 A T h a t i s c o r r e c t .

Page 130

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Page 131

1 Q T h a t NY, I g u e s s New York, New York c o n d u c t e d

2 y o u r i n t e r v i e w o v e r a phone l i n e .

3 I g u e s s I 'm c o n f u s e d by t h a t . Were you

4 b e i n g - - you a p p e a r e d on NBC N i g h t l y News i n - p e r s o n ,

5 b u t you were b e i n g i n t e r v i e w e d by t e l e p h o n e ?

6 A Yeah, i t was done by a r e m o t e . T h e r e was a

7crew

t h a t was , t h a t d i d t h e i n t e r v i e won

l o c a t i o n ,and

8 i t wa s done t h r o u g h - - I had an e a r p i e c e t h a t was m i c ' d

9 i n t o t h e New York s t u d i o s .

10 Q Were t h e r e p a r t s o f y o u r i n t e r v i e w t h a t were

11 n o t a i r e d , a s f a r a s you can t e l l ?

12 A T h a t ' s a v e r y good p o s s i b i l i t y , due t o

13 e d i t i n g .

14 Q How l o n g d i d y o u r i n t e r v i e w l a s t ?

15 A I d o n ' t r emember. I t wa s a t l e a s t a n h o u r

16 l o n g .

17 Q Do you b e l i e v e t h a t t h e r e a r e o t h e r F e d e r a l

18 A i r M a r s h a l s wh o t h e agency d i d n o t remove f o r

19 d i s c l o s i n g S8 1 a b o u t remain o v e r n i g h t m i s s i o n s ?

20 A A c c o r d i n g t o an I n s p e c t o r G e n e r a l R e p o r t ,

21 t h e r e were A i r M a r s h a l s who were a s k e d t o r e s i g n due t o

22 t h e f a c t t h a t t h e y ha d d i v u l g e d s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y



Page 132

1 i n f o r m a t i o n , b u t t h e y were n o t removed b y t h e a g e n c y.

2 They r e s i g n e d on t h e i r own.


4 A Nope.

5 Q The Brock Meeks a r t i c l e s u g g e s t s t h a t more

6 t h a n one F e d e r a l A i r Marsha l spoke t o Meeks a b o u t t h e

7 c a n c e l l a t i o n o f RON m i s s i o n s .

8 Do you r e c a l l t h a t p a r t o f t h e a r t i c l e ?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Do you b e l i e v e t h a t t h e a g e n c y i s aware o f any

11 o t h e r F e d e r a l A i r M a r s h a l s , a s i d e f rom y o u r s e l f , who

12 s h a r e d t h e c o n t e n t s o f t h e t e x t message r e g a r d i n g RON

13 m i s s i o n s w i t h B r o c k Meeks?


15 Q Do you know o f an y F e d e r a l A i r M a r s h a l s wh o

16 s h a r e d t h e c o n t e n t s o f t h a t t e x t message , t h a t same

17 t e x t message w i t h Brock Meeks?

18 A No .

19 Q Did you e n g a g e i n an y w h i s t l e b l o w i n g

20 a c t i v i t y , a s you u n d e r s t a n d i t , t h r o u g h p o s t i n g s on an

21 I n t e r n e t b u l l e t i n ?

22 A No .



Page 133

1 Q When speak ing abou t cong re s s i n your r e p o r t s

2 t o c o n g r e s s , we 've t a l k e d a b o u t S e n a t o r Reed.

3 Would t h e r e have been any o t h e r S e n a t o r s o r

4 e l e c t e d o f f i c i a l s ?

5 A Yes .

6 Q Who would t h a t ha ve been t h a t you would have

7 made a r e p o r t i n g to ?

8 A Barba ra Boxer, S e n a t o r from C a l i f o r n i a .

9 S e n a t o r Diane F e i n s t e i n o f C a l i f o r n i a . Joh n Ings t rom

10 o f Nevada . Congressman J im Givens of Nevada .

11 Congressman Ke n C a l v e r t of C a l i f o r n i a .

12 The re cou ld be more , b u t t h o s e a r e t h e ones

13 t h a t I r e c a l l o f f t h e top o f my hea d .

14 Q I d o n ' t know my e l e c t e d o f f i c i a l s , so i s John

15 Ings t rom from Nevada, i s he a Sena to r?

16 A John Ings t rom i s a S e n a t o r f o r Nevada .

17 Q So, each o f t h e s e e l e c t e d o f f i c i a l s you made a

18 r e p o r t i n g t o i n d i v i d u a l l y ?

19 A Through c o r r e s p o n d e n c e , y e s .

20 Q And what would t h i s c o r r e s p o n d e n c e have been

21 abou t?

22 A A ir Marshal checkpo in t by pas s d



Page 134

1 a i r c r a f t boa rd ing procedures , d r e s s i n g and grooming

2 codes , mandatory h o t e l p o l i c y, and the s e r v i c e ' s

3 c o n s t a n t d e s i r e t o d ivu lge s e n s i t i v e i n fo rma t ion to

4 news o r g a n i z a t i o n s and th e p u b l i c .

5 Q Did you r e p o r t t o any member o f Congress ,

6 w he the r a Sena to r o r r e p r e s e n t a t i v e , any th ing abou t RON

7 miss ions?


9 Q In you r a f f i d a v i t to ICE/aPR, on th e l a s t

10 page , you make a r e f e r e n c e t o "Congressmen."

11 Do you se e t h a t r e f e r e n c e on Page 4 o f E x h i b i t

12 10?

13 A Yes. Due t o th e f a c t t h a t my cha in o f command

14 o f DHS/OIG and my Congressmen a l l i gno red my

15 compla in t s , i t ' s t h a t I forwarded compla in t s t o my

16 Congressman.

17 I d i d n ' t know a t th e t i me , as I 'm r e a d i n g

18 t h i s , t h a t I most l i k e l y in formed the Congressmen.

19 Q Well , when y o u ' r e r e f e r r i n g t o compla in t s

20 w i t h i n the c o n t e x t o f " t h i s " ?

·2 1 A Oh, I 'm r e f e r r i n g - - y e s , I 'm r e f e r r i n g no t t o

22 t he l ong-hau l f l i g h t s . I 'm r e f e r r i n g on ly t o t h e - - to



Page 135

1 t h e c h e c k p o i n t b y p a s s p r o c e d u r e s , a i r c r a f t b o a r d i n g

2 p r o c e d u r e s , d r e s s an d grooming c o d e s , m a n d a t o r y h o t e l

3 p o l i c y , and t h e FAM S e r v i c e s m a n a g e m e n t ' s c o n s t a n t

4 d e s i r e t o d i v u l g e s e n s i t i v e s e c u r i t y i n f o r m a t i o n .

5 Q So t h a t I - -

6 A I was s p e a k i n g i n t o t h a t i n r e g a r d s t o t h o s e

7 i s s u e s , n o t t h e RON m i s s i o n s .

8 Q So t h a t I 'm c l e a r , t h e n , t h o s e i s s u e s , and

9 w e ' r e l u m p i n g them t o g e t h e r f o r p u r p o s e s o f o u r

10 d i s c u s s i o n , t h o s e were c o m p l a i n t s t h a t yo u h ad b e f o r e

11 J u l y o f 2003?

12 A No, t h e y were c o m p l a i n t s I h ad p r i o r t o

13 a u t h o r i n g t h i s a f f i d a v i t .

14 The IC E I n v e s t i g a t o r s t o l d me t h a t i n my f i n a l

15 s t a t e m e n t , I c o u l d d i s c u s s a n y t h i n g t h a t I s o d e s i r e d

16 o u t s i d e o f t h e a l l e g a t i o n s .

17 Q Did you have t h e s e c o m p l a i n t s , t h e n , a f t e r

18 J u l y o f 2003, b u t b e f o r e y o u r i n t e r v i e w i n May o f 'OS?

19 A Yes .

20 Q B ut n o t b e f o r e J u l y 2003?

21 A I ' m n o t s u r e . I ' m s u r e I d i d h a v e c o m p l a i n t s

22 w i t h my c h a i n o f command.



1 W h e t h e r I f i l e d r e p o r t s on i t, I d o n ' t r e c a l l ,

2 b u t i t wa s d e f i n i t e l y an i s s u e be tween me and my c h a i n

3 o f command.

4 T h i s i s why I went t o t h e media b e c a u s e t h e

5 c h a i n o f command i g n o r e d any c ompla in t s an d o n l y

6 r e t a l i a t e d a g a i n s t t h o s e t h a t made an y k i n d o f

7c o m p l a i n t s .

8 Q So, b e f o r e J u l y o f ' 0 3 , you were making a l l

9 t h e s e c o m p l a i n t s t o y o u r c h a i n o f command?

10 A Yes .

11 Q An d no one e l s e ?

12 A I do n o t know if I f i l e d c o m p l a i n s w i t h OIG,

13 aPR, o r a l A , b u t I do know I v o c a l i z e d t h e s e com pl a in t s

14 w i t h t h e c h a i n o f command.

15 Q We l l , i n v o c a l i z i n g y o u r c o m p l a i n t s t o t h e

16 c h a i n o f command, t h i s would h a v e b e e n a t Las Vegas

17 now, c o r r e c t ?


19 Q Did you i n d i c a t e t o them t h a t you were a l s o

20 making t h e s e compla in t s o u t s i d e o f t h e c h a i n o f

21 command?

22 A No .



Page 138

1 A No .

2 Q In y o u r a f f i d a v i t t o ICE/OPR, yo u d e s c r i b e

3 Brock Meeks a s a c r e d i b l e and r e s p o n s i b l e media

4 r e p r e s e n t a t i v e .

5 Do you u n d e r s t a n d t h a t ?

6 A Yes .

7 Q What d i d yo u mean by t h a t ?

8 A J u s t by r e a d i n g h i s p r i o r work . He l o o k e d

9 l i k e somebody who i s g e n u i n e l y c o n c e r n e d w i t h p r o b l e m s

10 o f th e A ir Marsha l S e r v i c e .

11 He was v e r y wel l -known among t h e a v i a t i o n

12 s e c u r i t y community f o r h i s r e p o r t i n g , an d I f e l t h e was

13 r e s p o n s i b l e enough t o w r i t e t h i s a r t i c l e .

14 Q Did you have an e x p e c t a t i o n o f Meeks t o s e n s o r

15 h i m s e l f i n t e r m s o f t h e i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t you may have

16 g i v e n him i n how he p r e s e n t e d t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n i n an y

17 news a r t i c l e t h a t he wa s r e p o r t i n g ?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Did you e x p e c t Meeks t o i d e n t i f y w h e t h e r t h e

20 i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t you gave him sho u l d remain


22 A As f a r a s t h e RON m i s s i o n s ?



Page 139

1 Q Yes.

2 A No, I expec t ed him to p u b l i c i z e i t .

3 MS. CALAGUAS: I have no f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n s .

4 MR. NOONE: Great . I have no q u e s t i o n s .

5 MS. CALAGUAS: Thank you fo r your t ime .

6 We a re o ff t h e r eco rd a t 2:40 p.m.

7 (Whereupon, a t 2:40 p.m. , th e d e p o s i t i o n wa s

8 concluded. )

9 * * * * *

10

11

12 I have r ead the foregoing pages , which a r e a

13 c o r r e c t t r a n s c r i p t of t h e answers g iven by me t o t h e

14 q u e s t i o n s t h e r e i n recorded.

15

16

17 Deponent __________________________________ _

18

19 Date ________________________________ ___

20

21

22



Page 140

1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

2 The u n d e r s i g n e d C e r t i f i e d S h o r t h a n d R e p o r t e r

3 l i c e n s e d i n t h e S t a t e o f C a l i f o r n i a d o e s h e r e b y

4 c e r t i f y :

5 T h a t t h e f o r eg o ing d e p o s i t i o n wa s t a k e n b e f o r e

6 me a t t h e t i m e an d p l a c e t h e r e i n s e t f o r t h , a t w h i c h

7 t i m e t h e w i t n e s s was d u l y sworn by me;

8 T h a t t h e t e s t i m o n y o f t h e w i t n e s s an d a l l

9 o b j e c t i o n s made a t t h e t ime o f t h e e x a m i n a t i o n were

10 r e c o r d e d s t e n o g r a p h i c a l l y by me an d were t h e r e a f t e r

11 t r a n s c r i b e d , s a i d t r a n s c r i p t b e i n g a t r u e c o p y o f my

fake whistleblower robert maclean - fired air marshal - sworn deposition - august 2, 2006

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