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© Society of Former Special Agents of the FBI, Inc. 2009

Interview of Former Special Agent of the FBI Catherine M. Kiser (1978 – 2002)

Interviewed by Stanley A. Pimentel On October 10, 2009

Edited for spelling, repetitions, etc. by Sandra Robinette on November 6, 2009. Final corrections from Ms. Kiser made by Sandra Robinette on January 8, 2010.

Stanley A. Pimentel: Today is October 10th, 2009. And I’m with Catherine M. Kiser. And

she will relate to us her background. Prior to that, she has reviewed the Copyright Release and Background Form, which she has graciously signed.

And, Cathy, if you might, tell us where you were born and raised and

your early years of schooling. Catherine M. Kiser: I was born on August 16, 1950, in New York, New York. I grew up in

the Bronx, in the northeast Bronx. My father was a member of the New York City Police Department, the NYPD. My mother was a stay-at-home mom until I was approximately fifteen years old; and then she worked in the New York Public Library.

I attended high school in the Bronx, an all-girls Catholic high school.

And then I entered college in 1968 and graduated in 1972. I attended Mercy College and that was in Dobbs Ferry, New York, in Westchester County. And that was in 1972.

Pimentel: You graduated with a degree in what? Kiser: I graduated with a degree in History, a BA in History, with a minor in

Elementary Education. Pimentel: Okay. Kiser: I then secured a teaching position in the Bronx, teaching second grade;

and also enrolled on a part-time program at Fordham University for my Master’s Degree in Education.

I continued teaching for three years in the Bronx, until a hiring freeze

at the New York City Board of Education prompted the loss of 5,000 jobs.

Pimentel: Hmmm!

Catherine M. Kiser October 10, 2009

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Kiser: I went on unemployment which allowed me to finish up my Master’s Thesis. I was almost finished. And I graduated from Fordham, with my Master’s Degree in Education in May of 1976.

In November of 1976, I attended a funeral in New York, as all good

Catholic families attend funerals of relatives, and met my second cousin, Jimmy Hunt. Jimmy was the Assistant Regional Director for the Drug Enforcement Agency, DEA. During the course of conversation he asked me what I was doing. I said that I had just gotten my Master’s Degree in Education and that I was working for the Rolex Watch Company on Fifth Avenue; and figuring out what my next step was going to be in my career.

Jimmy turned to me and said, “Cathy, are you aware of the fact that

the FBI is hiring female Agents?” Pimentel: (Chuckling) Kiser: And I said, “No!” He gave me his card and he said, “I want you to call

me in a few days and come to my office;” which was located on 57th Street in Manhattan. “And I want to talk to you.”

I followed up with him, whereupon he set up meetings for me to go to

the FBI office in New York. This is in November of 1976. Went to the New York Field Office, located on 69th Street in Manhattan, on the eastside; and met with a number of Supervisors and Agents who he personally knew.

At this point in time, after meeting with all these people, I met Margot

Dennehy, a wonderful, famous female Agent, who you may remember.

Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: She was an expert in the stolen art area. I met her. I met Sheila

Horan, who I later worked with at FBI Headquarters. And I put in my application for employment. That was in the latter part of 1976.

I underwent two different testing programs for employment as a

Special Agent with the FBI. The first one was where you went into the office, took some type of a written exam, and went in and shook the hand of the SAC so that he could look at you and decide, on sight, if you were qualified.

Pimentel: Uhm-hmm.


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Kiser: There was a hiring freeze, and also a revamping of the application process for the Agents position. And that program was never instituted again. I then went under a different process, application process, wherein I took a psychological test. I took a reading test. I had the trigger test. And I was interviewed by three Special Agents for several hours - an interview panel. And that was in the mid-part of 1977.

In December of 1977, my application was completed. My background

investigation was completed. I obviously passed all the tests, and I was asked if I would be available for a class that would begin on January 9, 1978, in Quantico. And that is my EOD date, January 9, 1978.

Pimentel: Okay. Kiser: In April of 1978, I was assigned to the Baltimore Field Office, as a

new Agent. I was the second female Agent to be assigned to Baltimore. And, of course, there was a lot of curiosity because there weren’t many female Agents back then.

Pimentel: Going back a little bit, to your three months at Quantico, how did

those, how were you accepted at Quantico? Kiser: I was part of a wonderful class. We had twenty-two people in the

class. And, including me, there were three female Agents. I never felt any discrimination or any problem until one day, when I was on the Firearms Range, learning the shotgun. An individual who was near retirement, or certainly could have retired, older gentleman, stood and chastised me; and told me that I was taking the job away from a male with a family to support.

Pimentel: Oh boy (laughing). Kiser: To which point, I handed him the shotgun and I walked away. Pimentel: Was he one of the instructors? Kiser: He was one of the instructors. He was one of the Firearms Instructors. Pimentel: No kidding.


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Kiser: He was lucky I didn’t shoot him. My Firearms Instructor, at that time the Chief Firearms Instructor, was Rollie Swanson. He was an absolute dream. And some of my male counterparts had heard this exchange, had heard him say this to me, and went and told Rollie. And Rollie went over and chastised the guy and told him not to have anything to do with any female Agents in the future. And so that problem was resolved. That was the only problem that I had.

Pimentel: Really. Incredible. Yeah. Kiser: The only thing that … for me, it was, it was a wonderful experience. It

was the hardest thing I ever did. Pimentel: Going through Quantico? Kiser: Absolutely. Pimentel: Tough. Yeah. Kiser: It is tough. And I understand it’s hard, it’s even tougher now. But it

really makes you reach deep inside you and find out what you’re made of. Yes, I had many phone conversations in a little phone booth where you’d close the door; those old booths over by the laundry area in Quantico. And, cry on the phone with my parents. Call them up and say, “I’m never going to do this.” I had problems with the push-ups.

Pimentel: (Laughing) Kiser: Because most female Agents don’t have the upper body strength … Pimentel: That’s right. Yeah. Kiser: … we don’t, you know, we don’t do that. Pimentel: You haven’t been lifting weights, then. Kiser: I haven’t been lifting weights. No. I was running. I had no problem

with the running. I had no problem with firearms, with the pistol. I didn’t need any remedial training. I was very proud of that, because the other two female Agents in my class did. I was very proud of that fact. And I did fine with every other, with every other phase. The only thing was, you know, doing those push-ups.


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Kiser: My male counterparts in my class, wonderful … who I keep in touch with many of them to this day … you know, brought me down to the gym and we lifted weights and by the time, you know, the last few weeks rolled around, I could do it. So, I passed and I got my credentials.

Pimentel: (Laughing) That’s great! Kiser: So that was the only negative thing, was the Firearms Instructor. Pimentel: Oh, good. Kiser: And telling me I was taking the job away from a guy with a … Prejudice about women in the FBI. Pimentel: Incredible. How small, you know. Kiser: Yes. I know. But that was 1978. Pimentel: Yeah. Yeah. Kiser: From what I was told, and I have no idea who told me this, I was the

78th female FBI Agent in the Bureau. And I think it was someone from Headquarters told me that. And I have never been able to find out if that was true.

Pimentel: I could, I have a list of the first hundred, I think. Kiser: Oh, okay. Pimentel: So I can look that up. I believe I do. Kiser: Yes. I mean, I don’t know if it’s true or not. Pimentel: Yes. We can find out. Kiser: Yes, but that was January 1978. Pimentel: Right. Kiser: And there were two other female Agents in the class. Pimentel: But I don’t believe that the females were accepted until Mr. Hoover

died in May of ’72. So it had to be late ’72, or probably more than likely, in ’73, when the first females went through.


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Kiser: Right. Right. One was a former nun and one was a former Marine. Pimentel: Right. Kiser: So that was Quantico. And, of course, when the time came for my

graduation, I had the most attendees come! So that was, you know, that was fun.

Pimentel: Took up the whole auditorium? Kiser: Yeah, well, they said, “Hartnett’s got all the …. Hartnett, what are you

doing with all these guests.” Pimentel: What was your maiden name? Kiser: Hartnett, H-a-r-t-n-e-t-t. Pimentel: Okay. Kiser: So then I arrived in April of 1978, in the Baltimore Field Office; again,

the second female Agent in the Division. Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: I was assigned to headquarters city for one year. They always started

you out working applicants. Which was good because I got to know the neighborhoods in and around Baltimore.

Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: I didn’t know Baltimore. And they also were assigning, they were not

assigning New Agents to what they called then a Top Ten Field Office.

Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: So you couldn’t go back to New York if you wanted to. And I asked

for Richmond; and I asked for Baltimore; and I forget what else. But I got Baltimore and that was okay; because it’s only four hours from New York.

Pimentel: Sure.


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Kiser: So it was cool. My first year, again, I was working applicants, and eventually transferred to a Criminal Reactive Squad. But during that period of time when I was in headquarters city for one year before I moved on to an RA, I would be called upon to go out and do different things with surveillance activities with other Agents, male Agents, just because I was there.

Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: And there was one thing that, that I wanted to mention here, and that

was in the winter, maybe February of 1979, I was still at the Baltimore Field Office. They had a procedure where an Agent had to be on duty from the midnight to eight shift, sitting behind the switchboard, answering the telephone. I had my week, it was the second night that I had the duty. It was myself and a support employee. We were the only two people in the Field Office. The Field Office located within eye distance of 695 in Baltimore. Myself and the clerk were engaged in conversations at 2:30 in the morning, and he had just gone back into the rotor area. He no sooner goes back into the rotor area then I hear these loud explosions. Which turned out to be three 30 caliber carbine rifle slugs, fired into the Field Office.

Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: And most of the Field Office was dark. You didn’t need to have the

lights on except some hallways that he and I walked along. Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: And, I got on the intercom and said, “Are you okay?” And he yelled,

“Yes.” I called the Baltimore City Police Department, which was less than five minutes away. It took them twenty minutes to arrive. I had to call the ASAC, who was, unfortunately, was home sick with a very bad cold. But the SAC was in Quantico. I had to call the ASAC, Jim Dolan.

Pimentel: Uh-huh. Kiser: And all I had with me was my six-shooter (pistol). I didn’t have a

shotgun. I didn’t have anything. And myself and the clerk … I am there with my gun, going around looking and turning on the lights to find out, I mean, I didn’t know if … I, I had no clue. I had no clue what happened. I didn’t know if there was anyone in the building. I mean, it was just very frightening to think that the building had been a target.


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Pimentel: Did you know they were gunshots? Or did you know, or you just thought …

Kiser: I did not Pimentel: … they were explosions? Kiser: I just thought it was explosions. Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: And I didn’t know it was gunshots until we turned on some of the

lights in the hallway and we could see where the bullets had gone off the side - it wasn’t fiberglass, but it was, you know, it was a soft wall.

Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: And you could see where the bullets had, you know, had kind of

ricocheted off. And then we found them. We found the casings on the floor. One was four feet from where I was sitting.

Pimentel: Hmmm! Kiser: At this point, the Baltimore County Police show up, as well as poor

Jim Dolan, who’s sick as a dog. And we go into the main squad area and we turn on the lights. And all of the glass is broken.

Pimentel: Hmmm. Kiser: Oh, this is supposedly bullet-proof glass. Pimentel: (Laughing) Kiser: I don’t think so. So now it’s 4:30 in the morning. You know, we, we

have to write all this up. Jim Dolan leaves; he goes back to bed. The police go back on their way. And the Firearms Instructor, Burt Dickson … he’s always the first one in the office in the morning … and he comes in. He comes in and, you know, it’s about six a.m. in the morning … always came in nice and early … and I said, “Burt, don’t go in the back, don’t go in the back in your squad area.” And he said, “Why not?”


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Kiser: And I said, “Because there was a shooting here overnight.” And he looked at me like I was crazy and I said, “No, Burt. Everything was shot up. It’s now a crime scene; we can’t go in.” You know. Because they had the tape and everything all over the place.

Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: They never did find out what happened; who did it. The office was

located in a semi-industrial park area. Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: And they never, they had never found, they’d never gotten any

complaints from any other offices that were down the road. Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: It was located on Ambassador Road. So that was, for a brand new

Agent out of Quantico … Pimentel: (Laughing) Kiser: … for me, this was somewhat of an experience. Pimentel: Yeah. Yeah. Kiser: I had to stay and write up a report and they had a big meeting in the

squad room and they made me stay. I was exhausted. And, you know, give my version of the whole thing. Then the next day when I came back, that evening, ‘cause I had to do my week …

Pimentel: Right. Right. Kiser: … ran five days. Pimentel: Right. Kiser: They had a shotgun mounted on the back wall behind where the Agent

sits. (Laughing) Pimentel: (Laughing) Kiser: And I got phone calls all night long, during the whole week, at all

hours of the night, because the Agents were worried about me.


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Pimentel: Sure. Kiser: “Are you okay?!” Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: A Supervisor came to me on the Criminal Reactive Squad that I was

on, Dan Anderson, and said, “Cathy, would you like to go to an RA?” I said, “Absolutely! Yes!” You know. “Do I have to do midnight duty?” “No.” “Fine. Put me down.” He told me at that time, that there were no female Agents assigned to RAs.

Pimentel: Hmmm. Kiser: Back in 1979, at that time. I have no idea whether that was true or not. Pimentel: I don’t know. Kiser: But I went. I mean, I left. Pimentel: Where did you go? Kiser: I went to the Hyattsville RA; which, of course, is no longer around. Pimentel: Right. Kiser: And that covered Prince George’s County and Southern Maryland. Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: I was there from May of 1979 until 1985, when they decided to take

all the Agents working Foreign Counterintelligence matters to the Silver Spring RA in Montgomery County. Which worked out very nicely for me because in 1983 I got married and we lived in Silver Spring.

Pimentel: So you were working FCI matters then? Kiser: No in the RA, I was working bank fraud cases, Crimes on Government

Reservations. The Crimes on the Government Reservations were, and I will note them for you if you’d like …

Pimentel: No, that’s okay. Kiser: Well, several of them were …


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Pimentel: If they were high profile, yeah. Yeah. Kiser: Well, they were child molestation cases. Pimentel: Hmm. Kiser: That was out of Andrews Air Force Base. A number of these … the

Crime on the Government Reservation … there were two child molestation cases. Both, of which, both cases were relatives of the individuals.

Another noteworthy case that I worked when I was in the RA … when

you had weekend duty, there was no such thing as having a beeper. So if you would go out, you would have to call Baltimore …

Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: … and tell Baltimore that you were out for the evening and you would

have to call in every two hours. So I went out with a girlfriend to dinner. I had the weekend duty and they tracked me down. In fact, WFO tracked me down because Baltimore said she’s at a restaurant downtown in Washington, because I was in the Washington area … at this restaurant. And they said, “Alright, we’ll call.” WFO got the call that there had been a murder at the Suitland Federal Center, in Suitland, Maryland, which is on the border of DC.

A Navy E3 guy, divorced from his Navy wife, who was eight months

pregnant, followed her to work. She was working the midnight shift, or the very late shift, maybe seven to whatever. He had confronted her in the parking lot and he stabbed her repeatedly. He killed her and he also killed the unborn child. The Federal Protection Service, FPS, assigned to the Suitland Federal Center, accosted the individual immediately, and I was on the scene, as well as the Prince George’s County Police. And, the investigation commenced. That was a Saturday night. The victim was taken to Baltimore to the Medical Examiner … she was taken to Baltimore to the Medical Examiner. And luckily for me, ‘cause I’d never been through an autopsy, an Agent in Baltimore, off the homicide squad that worked murder cases, went to the autopsy; which was done the next morning.

Pimentel: Hmmm. Kiser: Thank you. Pimentel: (Laughing)


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Kiser: An Agent named Roger Coleman, now deceased, witnessed the autopsy. The E3 eventually pled guilty. Well, he pled insanity first. A government lawyer indicated that he was not insane; totally sane. But he decided, I mean, we were going to go to trial, and he pled guilty to murder and manslaughter and got life, without a trial.

The suspect was assigned to the National Security Agency, as a Navy

E3. And this was my first exposure to NSA. The first time I had ever met anyone from NSA, I had to go up and interview this individual’s supervisor, as well as co-workers. And that’s when I first met and became very familiar with employees at NSA; which would take me down a long road in my career.

Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: Where I eventually ended up at NSA, as a detailee from the FBI. Pimentel: Right. Kiser: Okay. I did, while I was in the RA, I did a number of light undercover

operations where I would pose as the girlfriend or the wife. There was one case where I was called upon to assist a male Agent working undercover on a LCN case. Organized Crime.

Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: And we drove up to a location somewhere in Pennsylvania and I was

the girlfriend. What was kind of a surprise to me was that I found out that we were going to be sharing the same hotel room.

Pimentel: (Chuckling) Kiser: And I said, “Oh, really!” And he was kind of, you know, and he was

married. I said, “Just, just,” you know, “you just better watch it.” You know. “I’m doing this for the Bureau, here. I don’t understand why we can’t get two …” “Oh, you’re my girlfriend. They expect this.” Yada-yada. The individual was associating with organized crime. His girlfriend was a toll collector on the Pennsylvania Turnpike. So we had a lot in common. (Chuckling)

So it was, you know, it was one of those evenings. Pimentel: Right.


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Kiser: But it was just one night. He behaved, he behaved appropriately and we drove back the next day. And I thought, “Glad that was over.”

Pimentel: (Laughing) Kiser: Not to go back, but I wrote all this out last night, these bullets, so that

I’d be able to do this right. As a new Agent, we had a lot of brand new Agents coming into

Baltimore in the time frame that I got there. I arrived in April, every two weeks we would have more new Agents coming in. Much the same as it is right now.

Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: You’ve got a lot of Agents going through. And they wanted us to get

experience with arrests. Back then, they had cases called deserter cases.

Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: They were referred to as ‘42’ classification. Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: It was a good way for you to get arrest experience. Go out, follow-up

leads, contact the family. Tell the family that it is unlawful for you to hide the information about where this individual is, etcetera, etcetera. So it was good experience. And, so I did that with a number of my male counterpart Agents.

Again, I was, at that time, for a number a months, I was the only

female Agent in the office because the gal that was there when I got there, got transferred back to WFO. So I was the only female Agent.

Pimentel: But as a whole, you were accepted? Kiser: As a whole, I was accepted. Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: I was accepted. And I was very happy. And I worked, I worked hard;

and I really liked the job.


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Pimentel: You were still single there? Kiser: I was still single. Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: Yeah. I was still single. I think I maybe went out with one Agent in

my Bureau career. But I just didn’t do it. It wasn’t a good idea. I didn’t have a great social life because here I was a female agent with a gun. But I was involved with my job and it wasn’t a big thing.

When I was in both Baltimore City and the RA, for some reason, oh,

well, this one, excuse me, this was when I was in headquarters city as a brand new Agent … a year. I was assigned to a Criminal Squad, and the Supervisor, who I won’t name, assigned me ‘44’ investigations. civil rights investigations. And I would go out and I would interview policemen who basically always had their lawyer with them; who basically looked at me and said, “I’m not telling you anything, lady.”

Pimentel: Right. Right. Kiser: But some of them did. Some of them did talk, and it was just

ridiculous things. Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: But some of them were involved in very brutal attacks against citizens

and you had to do what you had to do. Investigate all the facts and do a report to the Department of Justice.

Pimentel: Sure. Kiser: This one Supervisor, which I felt was a mistake but what did I know,

sent me to investigate a civil rights investigation at the Jessup Correctional Facility, in Jessup, Maryland … a male prison. I went with another male Agent, of course, and we had them lined up out in the hall. And several of them got my business card, which, of course, I came to realize was a very dumb thing to do. Because I got fan mail for months.

Pimentel: (Laughing)


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Kiser: And the Supervisor, who opened these cases up, got transferred. The new guy who showed up, who I will name, was Gerry Shockley. And he called me in and he said, “Cathy, Cathy, this is ridiculous and this stuff is going in the trash.” He said, “Why did he ever send you to Jessup Correctional Facility?” I used to get out of the car and they would be screaming out the window at me.

Pimentel: Sure. Sure. Kiser: They could see me. How they could see me, I never figured out. Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: But anyway, so, it was a very, kind of unwise thing to do. Pimentel: It was. Yeah. Yeah. Kiser: So that was my, you know, that was kind of interesting. But anyway,

this one Supervisor, who did send me to Jessup, decided that he thought maybe I had a good head on my shoulders. So this survey came down from Headquarters, because of a recent problem with the Philadelphia Police Department.

Oh! Surprise, surprise. “We’re doing a study, Bureau-wide, on Police

Departments. In Baltimore, we want you to, we have this Headquarters survey, and we want you to go out to the high-level people on the Baltimore City Police Department; have the appropriate individuals around a table and ask them these questions because this is an FBI study.” So he gives the study to me.

So I go, and I line it all up; and I bring with me, a wonderful support

employee … who went on to DEA … but she was just fabulous; very, very smart. Pat Keyes and I sat around the table; I would ask the question and she was the steno, and she wrote it all down. Pat and I came back and we went through it all and we put a report together.

The Supervisor called me and Pat in and he said, “This is the best

thing I’ve ever seen. This is an excellent report. Thank you very much.” It’s my first year on the job.

Pimentel: Right. Kiser: Anyway, so I had to do this big report on this ‘44’ case, ‘44’

investigation; this big study, which the Bureau later said was the best study that they had seen from the Field.


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Pimentel: (Laughing) Kiser: So that was my thing with ‘44’ cases. So I had a lot of, in my Bureau

career, I had a fair amount of exposure with civil rights investigations, prior to going to work Foreign Counterintelligence.

Anyway, I’m in the RA and the RA is a very interesting place to work.

Because, again, you have weekend duty; you call in; there were bank robberies. Prince George’s County was and still is a dangerous crime environment.

Pimentel: Yes. Kiser: So I was busy, pretty much the whole weekend. I worked criminal

cases from 1978 to 1984. There were Bank Fraud cases, which were ‘29’ cases. I had Fraud Against the Government; a number of cases. I always seem to get drawn into Andrews Air Force Base. You know, I worked the child molestation cases there; I worked Fraud Against the Government cases there. I also worked insurance fraud, and a couple of very interesting insurance fraud cases, involving one person, who everyone in the office had the opportunity to arrest. (Laughing)

Pimentel: (Laughing) Kiser: It was really funny. Everyone had the opportunity to arrest this guy

because he was so conniving and eventually the FBI charged him with Obstruction of Justice.

Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: He beat up girlfriends who were going to testify against him. So the

joke in the office, in the RA was, “has anyone arrested” so-and-so. “Okay. Cathy wants him arrested again.”

Pimentel: (Laughing) Kiser: And I’m not kidding, it was really quite interesting. But, eventually,

we all got the guy and he went away for fifteen years. Pimentel: Hmmm. Kiser: During the time I worked criminal cases, I did get a number of Letters

of Commendations from AUSAs that I worked with in Baltimore. They were just a class act. One of them was Kurt Schmoke, who later became the Mayor of Baltimore.


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Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: Life in the RA, in the Hyattsville RA. I’m the only female. And there

were about twelve or thirteen Agents in the RA, and utilized in all, in all phases of investigations from criminal to kidnappings, to Foreign Counterintelligence, and surveillances. The best work in the Bureau. I loved working in the RAs. I was only in Headquarters City, in Baltimore, for a year and the bulk of my seventeen years as a street Agent was working in Resident Agencies in Prince Georges County and Montgomery County.

Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: In 1984, I was featured in the film, Women in the FBI. That was

requested through a Baltimore magazine, and was seen on TV in Baltimore; along with my colleague, Rosemary Vicini.

And Rosemary and I are coincidentally both working for the

Directorate of Intelligence at FBIHQ. Pimentel: (Laughing) Kiser: In the end of 1984, I began my career in Counterintelligence. My

Supervisor at that time was Dick Weaver and he came to me and said, “Cathy, would you like to work Counterintelligence?” This was at the culmination of, I think, three trials that I had just gone through … where the defense attorney puts you on the stand, rakes you over the coals, the whole nine yards. Not that I didn’t like preparing for criminal cases but, you know, I had three back-to-back, and I was ready for a change. So when he came to me and said, “Would you like to work Foreign Counterintelligence, espionage, spies?” I said, “Yes.”

Pimentel: Had you ever worked any of that before? Kiser: Dabbling in it just a little bit. Pimentel: Yeah. Okay. Kiser: But no cases. No cases assigned to me. I was always just maybe

doing surveillances or going on searches, or things like that; but in conjunction with WFO.

Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: But now, he said would you like to work it, and I said, “Fine.”


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Kiser: I started working counterintelligence in the locale that I was in, in Prince George’s County. I worked jointly with the Navy; with the Army, the 902nd; with NASA, their Office of Security, all related to foreign counterintelligence issues, as well as, NSA. For security reasons, I will not mention what those relationships were.

Pimentel: Yes. Kiser: So you had a good sampling of the alphabet soup agencies. I

developed a good working relationship with my counterparts, and it made the job very interesting.

1985 was the year of the spy. Pimentel: I think it was. Yeah. Eighty-five or ’86. Kiser: It was ’85. 1985 was the year of the spy. And we, in Baltimore, had

the Ronald Pelton case going on. I was asked to interview his wife. Unfortunately, my husband and I had planned a vacation and, and, when they wanted me to interview, I was on leave and I couldn’t do it, which I always regretted. But it was a vacation we had planned; I think it was overseas.

In 1985, in the summer of ’85, I became pregnant with my daughter,

Christina. And I remember coming back to the Field Office, no, to the RA, and sitting down at my desk and getting a phone call from Rosemary Vicini. And Rosemary said, “Cathy, do you have a minute?” And I said, “Sure, Rosemary.” She said, “I have some wonderful news to share with you.” I said, “Oh, really, Rosemary, what?” She said, “I just found out that I’m pregnant.” I said, “Rosemary, I just came back from the doctor’s office, I’m pregnant too.”

Pimentel: (Laughing) Kiser: And she said, “Cathy, you’re not going to believe this!” She said,

“There are two other female Agents in Baltimore who are also pregnant.” I said, “Who?” And she said, “Donna Kanaskie.” Who I believe is retired. She retired out of the Harrisburg RA. And I cannot remember the other gal because her husband, who was in the Navy, asked her to leave the Bureau after she had her baby.

Pimentel: Hmmm.


19

Kiser: This was very upsetting to her. So here we are, the four of us, pregnant at the same time. We all had babies within weeks of each other. And it was really quite funny. And all the Supervisors were told the same week. So they went in to Dana Caro, the SAC in Baltimore, in their Squad meetings, and one went, then the other went, and then the other. So you had four different Supervisors telling the SAC so-and-so’s pregnant.

Pimentel: And the SACs was trying to figure out where are they drinking the

water! Kiser: (Laughing) That is exactly what he said! He said, “Alright

everybody, quit drinking the water.” Pimentel: (Laughing) Kiser: “Somethin’s wrong with the fountains around here.” (Laughing) Pimentel: (Laughing) Kiser: So, it was quite amusing. But while we were pregnant, yes; were we

used and did we go out on cases, absolutely. You know, I had the weekend duty. I remember, I remember I was six months pregnant. I had to drive up to Damascus, Maryland, at 7:30 at night, and I remember they said, “Well, how will we know who she is?” And the Agent who was on the phone said, “Oh, you’ll recognize her. She’s pregnant.”

Pimentel: Sure. Kiser: Now, my doctor did not allow me to go to firearms while I was

pregnant due to the lead content from the weapons. Pimentel: Sure. Sure. Kiser: And I told that to my Supervisor and it was no problem. Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: So, as far as that was concerned it was just, everyone was just

watching me in the RA, at that point, in the Silver Spring RA. Pimentel: Well, this was something new! Kiser: Yeah! Oh, yeah!


20

Pimentel: It was something new. Kiser: And I had my feet up and they were afraid I was going to have early

labor. Pimentel: (Laughing) Kiser: They had a plan in place on what they were going to do if I went into

labor in the office. Oh, it was just, you know, it was hysterical. Pimentel: (Laughing) Kiser: I apologize for jumping around, but when I, when I got engaged in, in

1982, they gave me a bridal shower. The guys in my office gave me a bridal shower. The only bridal shower I had, but they gave me a bridal shower. They also gave me a baby shower. So I had a very good relationship with the guys that I worked with. They were wonderful. And they all came to my wedding. We had three bank robberies during my wedding.

Pimentel: (Chuckling) Kiser: I mean, this is PG County. Pimentel: Right. Kiser: I mean, you know, they also helped me move when I was single. I

mean, when I would move from my condo and moved to another condo; they would help me move. I had a wonderful relationship. And it was truly my Bureau family. So I had a great relationship with the guys that I worked with. I really did. I was really blessed. I didn’t have any issues. There aren’t many female Agents who can say that. But I can say that.

Pimentel: Yeah. Some, some of the females had problems. Kiser: Yeah. Pimentel: With … some of the guys were real … they could not accept. Kiser: Yeah. They couldn’t accept women being agents in the FBI. Pimentel: Couldn’t accept the females coming into what had been previously an

all-male oriented society.


21

Kiser: Uhm, let’s see, in 1989, I worked Foreign Counterintelligence matters; I worked on the Pelton case.

Pimentel: Any other case you recall? Kiser: Uhm, ah, let me see. Pimentel: Because there’s a whole bunch of them. Kiser: Yeah, I know there were. There were a whole bunch. There was

Pelton; there was Pollard. Pimentel: Yes. Kiser: Jonathan Pollard. I worked on that one. Because he lived in PG

County. Oh. that was an interesting thing. Pollard, they wanted to put me on a plane with Jonathan Pollard because we knew that he was going to be traveling to London with his girlfriend. And they wanted to put me on a plane and sit me next to him. (Laughing) This was Dave Major, he was my Supervisor.

Pimentel: Dave, I liked Dave. Kiser: Yeah. He was a good agent. He said, “Cathy, we’ll put you on the

seat next to him.” Headquarters didn’t buy it. I was out at Dulles when he was arrested. It was pouring rain, I remember it. And it was the first time I’d ever been to Dulles, too. It was kind of interesting. That was in 1985. So I was involved in that case.

The Pelton case, I was involved in. Now, Larry Wu-tai Chin was

WFO. I wasn’t involved in that. Oh, the Walker case. I was involved in the Walker case.

I was involved in the Walker case after the fact. Because when I was

pregnant and had just had Christina, I think Walker had been arrested. Because it was 1985, and I was still pregnant. And he was arrested. They put him in a hold up in Montgomery County, in the Montgomery County Jail. And he was being debriefed in the Baltimore Field Office. And we had three cars that would go to Montgomery County Jail, and bring him back in a caravan to the Baltimore Field Office. And my Supervisor at the time … (end side A)

… Maybe if I think of it as I’m going along … Pimentel: Yeah.


22

Kiser: Pollard. Pollard was interesting. It was out of the Suitland Federal Center and we fought with WFO about who was going to get that case and they eventually were the Office of Origin on that one.

In any event, in 1986, I took six months off and had my daughter, and

I was on maternity leave. I came back to the Silver Spring RA and continued to work in Foreign Counterintelligence matters. And also, because of my background as a teacher, there were a lot of Agents who didn’t feel comfortable in speaking in front of an audience. And we had many, many requests from all of the defense contractors in the Baltimore Division, of which there were many in the Montgomery County, Prince George’s County area; and all the Federal agencies that were headquartered there. Many requests for national security briefings. So with my background and my knowledge of some of the cases, and also I went through Basic Counterintelligence Training, and I went through Advanced Counterintelligence Training at Quantico, I was authorized to give these presentations.

Pimentel: Was the DECA Program still around? Kiser: It was the DECA Program. It was called the DECA Program. It was

still called the DECA Program. And it was a very, very viable program.

Pimentel: Oh yeah. Kiser: It was a good program for sources and developing relationships. I

enjoyed giving the briefings. I got pretty good at it; and got a lot of requests. And we’d go out and, of course, all the guys in the field, in the RA, would say, “Why are you doing those Cathy? Why are you doing those?” And I said, “Gentlemen, first of all, I enjoy doing them.” I said, “But also, when I retire,” I said, “there are going to be a lot of companies that are going to remember me.” And I said, “If I want to get a job when I retire, this is not a bad thing to do.” And, of course, as it turned out, that was the case. But anyway, I enjoyed that but most of all working the cases.

In 1989, a Term 14 assignment was posted at WFO and at Baltimore.

They needed an Agent to be assigned to what they called the IOSS, I-O-S-S. And it stands for Interagency OPSEC, O-P-S-E-C, all caps, Support Staff.

Pimentel: Interagency, what?


23

Kiser: Interagency OPSEC Support Staff. Alright. I was the first FBI Agent detailed to the interagency staff. I got a Term 14 and went through a Career Board. And because of my relationships with NSA, I knew their culture, I was a logical choice. I did not know anything about OPSEC (Operational Security). The guys said to me, “Cathy, are you crazy? What’s OPSEC?” And, at that point in time, no one knew what OPSEC was except the military and DOE.

Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: And the point of this was it was a mandated program by President

Reagan, a National Security Directive, that every Federal agency with a national security mission had to establish a formal OPSEC program. And, it was a very, very interesting job. I briefed Field Offices all over the country; Chief Security Officers. I did a brochure on OPSEC and I also did a manual change. I actually forget whether it’s the MIOG or the MAIOG, the Manual of Investigative Operations.

Pimentel: Yeah. And MAOP, yeah. Kiser: MAOP, or, I don’t know, whatever. Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: Anyway, I did a whole section in there on OPSEC and mandating that

prior to an arrest or operation, you know, the OPSEC process should be evaluated. OPSEC is very, very important and the Bureau was clueless about it at this time – 1989 – 1991.

Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: Relating, really, to, back in those days, our early relationship with,

with task forces. Because if we had an operation that was going to go down, we had task force members who leaked it to their bosses; and if they wanted to go ahead and get the credit for the arrest, they’d show up …

Pimentel: Sure. Kiser: … and they’d be at the location before the FBI and nobody was there

to arrest. Pimentel: Like what happened in New York recently. Kiser: Yes. It was all OPSEC.


24

Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: It was all protecting the information. Pimentel: Right. Kiser: What is your critical information? Who do you want to know this?

To this day, I really enjoyed working OPSEC. I worked that for two and a half years; I got a Term 14 out of it. On my résumé, you can see, I received a commendation by the Under Secretary of Defense.

Pimentel: I think that’s in there. Yeah Kiser: I was assigned three agencies to work with for development of OPSEC

Programs. One was FBI, obviously; second was the Department of State; and the third one was DEA. So I gave briefings at all those locations, but primarily it was the FBI.

Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: I returned to the RA, after the two and a half years were over, and

continued to work Counterintelligence cases; a variety of different, different double-Agent cases, which I can’t mention here; sensitive investigations. But, again, Foreign Counterintelligence, also involved in the DECA Program. And it was a busy time.

In 1996, I had the opportunity to apply for a position at FBI

Headquarters, it was a Career Board position, where I would be promoted to FBI Headquarters and sent to the CIA where I would work at the National Counterintelligence Center located at main CIA.

The National Counterintelligence Center was established in the

aftermath of the Aldrich Ames case espionage investigation. Pimentel: What case? Kiser: Aldrich Ames. Pimentel: Oh yeah. Kiser: He was the guy that had the, you know, the Jaguar and the wife, and

everything. Pimentel: Bolivian wife.


25

Kiser: Yeah. Pimentel: Or Colombian wife, I guess. Kiser: Yeah. Yeah. The whole thing, the case was a mess, anyway. So I

went to the CIA as a Detailee, and remained there for three and a half years.

During this time, I was in support of the branch that was supporting

the private sector in understanding proprietary information. The Economic Espionage Act had been signed in 1996. Again, using my DECA background, and using my background with giving briefings, I would put on, and it’s in my résumé, I put on countless seminars throughout the country, bringing in subject matter experts; trying to identify, for the private sector and the Defense contractors, what the threats were. The seminars usually went on for anywhere from one day to three days, depending on the audience and the need.

I would always work closely with the Field Office, be it LA, be it

Phoenix, etc. I mean, it was all over the country. There was a lot of traveling involved. But it was a very, very interesting assignment. I had a wonderful boss, his name was Mike Waguespack.

Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: I had a boss, a CIA boss, who I won’t name for security purposes. He

came to me one day and said, “Cathy, we need to do a video.” I said, “What do you mean a video? What are we going to do a video about?” He says, “We need to do a video because that’s all there is to it. And you’re in, you’re doing the outreach and the education and awareness, so you need to think of a topic for a video.”

Pimentel: (Laughing) Kiser: I thought “okay, fine.” So I thought and I thought, and I said “wait a

minute.” The Economic Espionage Act has just been, has just been passed and the private sector and the public sector, and the U.S. Government needs to understand this legislations; understand the laws, the penalties, etc., etc. I’m going to find a case that we couldn’t prosecute because we didn’t have that legislation. And I did a video on that.

Pimentel: Hmmm!


26

Kiser: I worked with the CIA’s Training Office on the script. They were just an absolute class act to work with. They were so experienced. They were just so knowledgeable. Mike gave me the funding to do this. And it was called “Risky Business: The Threat of Economic Espionage.” The video was about eighteen minutes. I have it here, but I need to get it to put into a DVD format for you.

Pimentel: Oh, okay. Kiser: So “Risky Business” was done and that was about 1997. And I was

the Executive Producer, which meant that I thought of the topic; I handled all the revisions for the script. I had OGC at the Bureau review everything. There were some PRC individuals involved because they stole the data from a company in Boulder, Colorado, downloaded it; sent it over somewhere and the whole company went out of business. Everybody was on an unemployment line. So it was a good case.

Pimentel: Yeah. Yeah. Kiser: And I had to persuade the individual who owned the company to go on

tape. Pimentel: Right. Kiser: Which was not easy. Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: But he did it. We went out to Colorado in, you know, in January, ten

feet of snow, and taped the portion where he speaks. Pimentel: (Laughing) Kiser: So, that video received the first place award by ASIS. So it really put

the National Counterintelligence Center (NACIC) on the map and Mike was very pleased for me. I got a commendation for that from the CIA.

I also got commendations when I was working on the OPSEC, but

that’s all in my résumé. Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. I got that in there, yeah.


27

Kiser: So I was at the CIA for three and a half years; just got to know the Agency. It was a wonderful experience for me. And I got to play in someone else’s sandbox and you understood the culture, which served me well as an FBI agent.

Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: You understand how other people view circumstances, not just the FBI

way. Pimentel: Right. Right. Kiser: And it makes you a better Agent because you can go back and say,

“Alright, now listen. This isn’t the way they do things.” Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: So it was a very good experience for me. It was wonderful. Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: And, again, it was three and a half years. So now we’re getting into 1999, and I get a phone call from the person

who is the Senior FBI rep to NSA. And she says to me, “Cathy, I’m leaving to go back to the field. I want to become a Supervisor and there’s an opening in LA and I think you’d be perfect for this job.” So the Career Board meets and I really didn’t think I had a chance because I had not been a Field Supervisor. But the individual who was one step ahead of me was a supervisor in San Francisco.

And days before the Career Board was supposed to meet, there was a

huge ice storm in Maryland and D.C. His wife said to him, “Do you think I’m going back there to that weather? You’re crazy.”

Pimentel: (Laughing) Kiser: “You withdraw your name.” And I am on a flight to give a speech in

San Jose, California, when the Career Board is meeting. And I left my number and everything about the hotel, you always had to leave that with your boss.

Pimentel: Right.


28

Kiser: And when I got to the hotel, I checked in and there was a message from Mike Waguespack. And he said, “Call me.” And I called him, and he said, “Cathy, you got the job.” So I got the Grade 15 job as the FBI’s rep at NSA.

Pimentel: Hmmm! Kiser: And I was like, it was meant to be. So that was my incredible,

incredible experience working at NSA … Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: … as the only FBI Agent. We had a lot of FBI people at CIA because

everybody lived in Virginia. Pimentel: Sure. But nobody out here at NSA. Kiser: Yes. And it was a no such agency; such a secret place. Pimentel: Right. Kiser: Nobody knew anything about it. But I did know about it. And I had

had relationships over the years with the agency because of the work I did with them.

Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: And when I got the job, it was a wonderful opportunity for me. And

several things happened during the time that I did have that job. I also went on blood pressure medicine with that job. It was very stressful.

Pimentel: (Laughing) Kiser: Uhm, let’s see here. It was a high profile position. I had access to all

of the Assistant Directors at the Bureau. They all told their secretaries, “If Cathy calls, she is to be let through. If Cathy needs to meet with me, clear my calendar.” So I was given incredible access …

Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: … because they knew I didn’t bother them very much at all. Pimentel: Yeah. Yeah. Kiser: But when I did, it was important.


29

Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: Neil Gallagher, Tom Piccard … Tom Piccard also had me have a

STU-3 here in my house. So I had a STU-3 in my house. And, that was, you know, kinda scary, but whatever.

Pimentel: Yeah. (Chuckling) Kiser: Anyway, so during the time I was at NSA, and these were all things

that were in the news so I can talk about them here. Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: The, the Chinese brought down one of our Air Force planes in China. Pimentel: Oh yeah. Kiser: Tremendous damage on the intelligence side of the house because of

that. Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: That was in the news. Pimentel: Because they got all the stuff that was on the airplane. Yes. Kiser: Second thing that happened that I think I can talk about is the Hanssen

case. Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: I literally had people lined up outside my office with frightened,

shocked looks on their faces after hearing on the news that the FBI agent committed espionage.

Pimentel: Sure. Kiser: Several NSA employees had been in meetings with this man during

the normal course of business. They had known him for years. And, the FBI and the intelligence community were in a state of shock and disbelief. I interviewed many people but it came to a point where it was, it was out of control. And I called WFO, I said, “Look, you’ve got to get some agents up here to NSA; send some people up here.”

Pimentel: Yeah.


30

Kiser: “This is nuts. You’ve got to have a whole Squad … you have to send people who will come up here and do this.” “Okay, Cathy.” So that wasn’t bad. They did and I worked together with them as a team.

Pimentel: Go ahead. Kiser: The interesting thing, and I’m almost finished, is in late January, in

early February, late January or early February, I was at my desk at NSA. I averaged 50 to 60 emails a day. I had an FBI computer, which I brought back from the Bureau to NSA because I had no way to communicate with the Bureau.

Pimentel: Sure. Kiser: So I had my NSA computer. I had my FBI computer. I had all these

phones. I had everything. The phone rings and who is it but someone named Robert Hanssen.

Pimentel: Huhhh! Kiser: “Hello, Cathy. This is Bob Hanssen. How are you?” And I answered,

“Fine. And who are you?” “Oh, I used to work at the Office of Foreign Missions.” I said, “And? Are you FBI?” “Oh, yes. I want to tell you about this new SES position that I’ve gotten.” I said, “Alright, Bob. So you work at the FBI. You’re at FBI Headquarters. You’re an FBI employee.” I don’t want to be obstructive, as I am the liaison.

Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: He says, “Well, Cathy, I got this new position; this new SES position,

and, and I need you to set up some key meetings for me with some high profile people at NSA who have, who can tell me about NSAs computer infrastructure.” I said, “Bob, no offense, but,” I said, “I just did this several months ago with people who are probably in your Section or in your Unit. I will send you an email with their names and I think you should talk to them.” I said, “It took a long time to set up all these meetings. They were very productive, but these meetings have already taken place and I don’t think they will appreciate going through the same drill.” I can remember this like it was yesterday.

Pimentel: Hmmm. Kiser: Well, he didn’t like that. Pimentel: No. No.


31

Kiser: So I’m also a female telling him this. Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: He didn’t like women. So, I said, “The next time I’m at Headquarters

… I go to Headquarters once a week. I have an office down in 1-B, in Sensitive Technologies.” I said, “I will reach out to you. And we can continue this discussion. But I’d like you to reach out to these people.”

The following week, I go to Headquarters, and it’s about four o’clock

in the afternoon. Whenever I go to Headquarters I’m usually running all over the building; I’m busy. And I said “oh, I have to call Bob Hanssen.” He’s up on the 11th floor. Oh, I call him up, he says, “I knew that was you, Cathy!” And I went, “Oh, okay. Fine.” So I go upstairs. I can’t find him. They’ve got wires hanging out of the ceiling. They’re doing all these things with the computers da-da-da-da-da. I find him in this suite of offices. There’s no one there except him. There are, there are pictures leaning up against the wall; and all he has on his desk is an email from me and a laptop. I go in, “Oh, hi Bob.” You know, “Cathy Kiser.” And I said, “Bob, listen, I need,” you know, “have you had a chance to talk with your people?” “No, I haven’t.” I said, “Well, do you have a Mission Statement that I can bring back to NSA about this?” So I haven’t totally discounted what he asked me to do; because this was my job. “No, I don’t have a Mission Statement.” And I’m like, “Well, fine.” You know. So I spend about ten minutes with him and I leave. And I shake my head as I’m outside the door thinking “what was that all about?”

So I went back downstairs and I said to my Unit Chief, Paul

Fitzgerald, who is also a wonderful friend of mine. I said, “Paul, who’s this Bob Hanssen?” He said, “Oh, he’s a Detailee, Cathy ehh-hhh-hhh.” And I said, “Alright, Paul.” So he said, he said, “I don’t know what his story is.” He said, “He used to be at OFM.” And he said, “Now he’s in Division 11 with the, with the Infrastructure … Information Infrastructure Unit.” So, I said, “Well, you know,” da-da-da-da-da … I said, “He wants me to connect him up with people.” I said, “And he doesn’t sound real bright to me.” And I said, “So, I’ll just see what happens.”


32

Kiser: So then I got a sinus infection and I was out for a couple of days. And it’s now February and I’m sitting at my desk, over a three-day weekend, and the phone rings. And it’s Susan Gregory, who works in the Espionage Section. She, of course, is retired now. She said, “Cathy, Susan Gregory.” “Hi Susan. How are you?” She says, “Have you listened to the radio this morning on your way in?” And I said, “Well, I listen to the oldies channel.” I said, “Why, what’s going on?” She said, “We arrested Robert Hanssen for Espionage this weekend.”

Pimentel: (Laughing) Kiser: (Gasp) I said, “What!” I said, “He wanted me to set up important

meetings up here at NSA.” She said, “Yeah, we know.” I said, “I was too busy.” She said, “Cathy, it’s good to be busy.”

Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: And I got off the phone and I thought to myself “oh my goodness!”

Because that’s when I realized that the phone calls that he made to me, and the meeting in the room, they were all on tape. And I thought “well, I must have had an angel on my shoulder.”

Pimentel: Yeah. Yeah. He was trying to get more family jewels. Kiser: He sure was. He sure was. Pimentel: Yeah. He was really trying. What was, this is in what year? Kiser: That was, I think it might have been February of 2001. Pimentel: Okay. Kiser: When he was arrested. Pimentel: Yeah, it was about that. Yeah. Kiser: Because then, of course, then we get to 9/11. Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: But, I mean, the damage control. The damage control of Hanssen, I

mean, you know, Aldrich Ames was a footnote compared to Hanssen. So I was dealing with a lot of things at NSA relating to Hanssen; and I was very busy. And just busy just doing all sorts of things that I can’t talk about in this …


33

Pimentel: Right. Kiser: … in this tape. Okay. So now, roll around to August of 2001. In the meantime,

though, throughout my time at NSA, I have been called upon because I knew all the training people in Quantico. And they knew that I gave a good briefing. And they said, “Cathy, the people who are going through Basic Counterintelligence Training don’t know anything about NSA. And they need to know how, how we can deal with them and the implications and the legal stuff. Will you come out when we have a class?” I said, “Fine.”

Kiser: So on one of my number of classes, I must have, I must have gone to,

done twenty during the time I had the job at NSA. Pimentel: (Chuckling) Kiser: I’d get them at nine o’clock, which wasn’t bad. Because as they’re

going home and driving back on the New Jersey Turnpike, or wherever they were going, they could think about what I just told them.

Pimentel: Right. Right. Kiser: And, so I had no problem with that time frame. One of the two, one of

the individuals who was involved and sat in on one of my classes was an agent named XXXXX. And he was in the Minneapolis Division, and he was working Counterterrorism matters. And after I gave the briefing he said, “Cathy, we’ve a lot going on in Minneapolis.” I would assist him with some name checks, etc. What I didn’t realize was the phone call that I got from him on August 16, because that’s my birthday, where he says, “I’m sending you an LHM. We arrested,” it was either that day or the day after. It was around my birthday, August 16. And he said, “Cathy, I’m sending you a LHM that needs to be disseminated to the terrorism folks at NSA. We arrested a guy who was at a flight school in Minneapolis.” And he said, “He’s a bad guy. He’s a bad dude. I have a very bad feeling about him. We interviewed his roommate. He’s got a lot of cash. He’s at a flight school. He doesn’t want to know how to take off or land.”


34

Kiser: And he said, “The flight, the guy who owns the flight school was former Navy. He called me up.” He said, “And when I went over, I brought,” … he used to work for INS, xxxxx used to work for INS. He brought along his INS counterpart with him, just in case this foreign national overstayed his visa..

Pimentel: Hmmm! Kiser: Because he knew we had to get this guy. It just wasn’t right. And this

is before he even saw the guy. xxxxxxxxxt goes over to the flight school and discovered that this person had overstayed his visa.

Pimentel: Hmmm! Kiser: The INS agent put the cuffs on him and walked him out. He was taken

over to the INS Office. Also, the FBI is interviewing his roommate who is saying he was involved with the Mujahedeen in Afghanistan. “He has a lot of money. He’s got a lot of cash; he’s paying my rent,” etc., etc., etc. This is all, this is in the LHM.

Pimentel: Yeah. And this is Zacharias Moussaoui? Kiser: And this is Moussaoui. I get the LHM and I run down the hall. It’s a

Friday afternoon in the summer, around 4:30 p.m. Pimentel: (Chuckling) Kiser: Who am I going to find? Pimentel: Right. Kiser: We needed to, we, he said, “Cathy, I need a link from this … I need a

link to Al-Qaeda. We need to get the intel and we need a link to Al-Qaeda. That’s what I need because Office General Counsel said we can’t get a FISA warrant to open up his laptop unless we have a specific link.” Okay. My counterpart, Chuck Frahm, was involved in this at the CIA; Joe Hummel, who was the Legat in London was involved. The Legat in France was involved. The French came up with some intel.

The French DGSE. Still, the folks in the Islamic Fundamentalist Unit

at FBIHQ… and it is all here for you. Pimentel: Oh, okay. (Unintel)


35

Kiser: My husband said, “I Googled your name Cathy.” Pimentel: (Laughing) Kiser: And he said the whole thing about Moussaoui … Pimentel: It’s in there. Kiser: … it’s all here. Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: It’s the trail. Pimentel: Hmmm! Kiser: On the emails that were sent, the Legats. The whole thing. The whole

thing is here for you. And this is historical. Pimentel: It is. Yeah. Kiser: The last email, I hadn’t heard from xxxxx. I was trying and trying,

trying to get something. They weren’t making the link. There was a breakdown in communication. I told this, I was interviewed by the Pre-9/11 Commission.

Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: I told them all this. And I was also interviewed by the Inspector

General’s Office for the Department of Justice, and I told them everything.

Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: Last email … I’m asking xxxx, “xxxx,” he left off the date, it was 9/10

… “xxxx, did you ever get anything you could use to,” well, this is all, this is all redacted … off the internet?”

Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: Basically what I’m saying is “xxxx, did you ever get what you

needed?” Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Yeah.


36

Kiser: To open the laptop. xxxxxx: “I am so desperate to get into his computer.” Alright. This is on September 10th, late afternoon.

Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: Okay. A lot of this is redacted. And you can read this. My response

back to him on September 10th, at 3:45 PM. Okay. “Subject: Request Emergency FISA Search Warrant” to open up Moussaoui’s computer.

“xxxxx, Thanks for the update. Very sorry this matter was handled the

way it was, but you fought the good fight. God help us all if the next terrorist incident involves the same type of plane. Take care, Cathy”

Pimentel: And that was the next day. Kiser: The next day. Pimentel: Yeah. Isn’t that amazing. Kiser: That was the last email. Pimentel: Yeah. Uhm-hmm. Where’s xxxxx right now? Kiser: He’s still in Minneapolis. Yeah. I get, I get emotional when I talk

about this because it was just, it was awful. Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: Because I knew. xxxxx knew. Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: Chuck Frahm knew. Joe Hummel knew. We all knew. This was,

there was something going on here. Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: This was bad. And we didn’t even know about the xxxx memo. Pimentel: No Kiser: We didn’t even know about the xxxx memo. Pimentel: Yeah. That came later.


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Kiser: Because those idiots in ITOS didn’t let anybody know. Dale Watson didn’t even know about the xxxxx memo.

Pimentel: If Dale had known, it would have gotten out. Kiser: Well, we would’ve done a scrub on these flight schools! Pimentel: Sure. Kiser: And that would’ve scared these guys! Pimentel: Oh yeah. Yeah. It would’ve scared them and they probably would’ve

skedaddled. Kiser: And, and would they have done something else? Probably. Pimentel: Oh yeah. Kiser: But it wouldn’t have been the magnitude of what we experienced in

loss of life on 9/11/2001. Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: And we would’ve had a better feel, but … Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: … it’s a, it’s just an awful thing. And it’s always, it’ll always be with

me. Pimentel: Yeah. Oh, yeah. No. It is. Kiser: You know. Pimentel: It will remain with you. Yeah. Kiser: Yeah. Pimentel: But you had kind of connected the dots and … Kiser: I did. Pimentel: … and … Kiser: A small cadre of Agents connected those dots.


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Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: And no one would listen to us. Pimentel: Yeah. Yeah. Kiser: And when I was interviewed by the Pre-9/11 Commission, Harry had

just gone in before me, and I said, “Did you tell them everything, xxxxx? Did you lay it all out?” You know. And he said, “Well, Cathy,” you know, “I got, I got more years in this job.” I said, “Don’t worry, Harry. I’m going to tell them everything.”

Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: And I did. I was in there for three hours. Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: I was in there for three hours and then I was interviewed again by the

Inspector General’s Office for DOJ. Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: But, I’m not in the 9/11 Commission Report, which I have in the

house. And it’s probably because of the sensitivity of all this stuff. Pimentel: Yeah, probably. Yeah. Kiser: But I did a memo before I retired that said that I needed to retain my

clearance … Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: … because the possibility of my being called again, on this case, was

probably very good. So my supervisor signed off on it. No problem. I was considered in there as a non-paid consultant. My clearances were still active; which was very good. And I needed to do that.

Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: And in 2004, I get notification from Moussaoui’s defense attorney that

they want me as a witness. Didn’t happen. So that’s it.


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Pimentel: You retired when? Kiser: In October of 2002, the day of the sniper shooting. Pimentel: Geez. Kiser: Yes. My husband looked at me and said, “You had to retire today.

You have no gun.” And, and the shooting, all, the initial shooting, all took place in Kensington, Maryland.

Pimentel: Yeah. That’s right. It did. Yeah. Kiser: Less than, less than two miles from my home. Pimentel: Yeah. Kiser: So that was my life! My wonderful career. Pimentel: And, since then, I’ve got your résumé, anyway, so, but you’ve been

involved, still, with contract work at … Kiser: Right. Pimentel: DOE and then now with the Bureau. Kiser: Right. This is my third contract assignment with the Bureau.

Obviously, I love the place and can’t stay away. Pimentel: (Laughing) Kiser: You know, it’s like an umbilical cord, someone mentioned to me; also

another retired Agent said, “Cathy, we can’t cut the cord.” I said, “Yeah, well.”

Pimentel: Right. Kiser: And they have no sense of the mission and you really get very

disenchanted with it. So. Pimentel: Yeah. Yeah.


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Kiser: So when opportunities came up, I was a Program Manager for all the Chief Security Officers in the Bureau. I did that for eighteen months. That was really good. And then, for a short period of time, I was assigned to the Calverton RA, where I was supposed to act as a mentor for New Agents.

: I took a break for four months and, and then I returned to the Bureau,

oh, well over a year ago, to work in the Security Division; because a lot of retired Agents review, review adjudications for high-risk applicants.

Pimentel: Right. Kiser: People that are coming into the FBI and looking at security concerns

because the support employees don’t have the backgrounds we have. And that was very interesting. And then as of late, since August, I have been working in the Directorate of Intelligence at the Bureau, on a new initiative that the Bureau has put out called “The SET Team.” It’s the Security Execution Team. I might be wrong on that. But it’s called SET. Anyway, it’s Bureau-wide; a lot of training involved. It’s been interesting. It’s been very interesting. And, you know, we’ll see where that goes.

Pimentel: You talked about your husband is who? Kiser: Husband is John Kiser. Pimentel: Okay. Kiser: He’s coming back from Montreal as we speak. He’ll probably be

walking in the front door … Pimentel: He works for who? Kiser: He works for the U.S. Department of Transportation. Pimentel: Oh, okay. Kiser: He works in the Aviation Affairs Division. He’s a Grade 15. And

he’s a subject matter in his field. And he’s a wonderful husband, and always very supportive of me. And I’ve been very lucky because … I’ve been very lucky that I’ve been able to have detail assignments because I’ve lived in this area.

Pimentel: Sure. Right.


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Kiser: Because it’s too much of a hardship otherwise. And my daughter, Christina, a Valedictorian of her class. And Magna Cum Laude from Loyola College.

Pimentel: Wonderful. Kiser: Worked a year at the Library of Congress and now she’s at American

University, and getting her Masters in International Affairs. And we’ll just see where she goes. She’s fluent in French and she’s the apple of my eye.

Pimentel: Okay. Anything you want to add? Kiser: No! Pimentel: You’re sure. Okay. Kiser: I wanted to get those bullets together so I could go through this, so you

wouldn’t have to spend all day here. You will leave with my “Women in the FBI” DVD.

Pimentel: Uhm-hmm. Kiser: You will leave with the FBI emails on Moussaoui. Pimentel: Okay. Kiser: Which were off the internet. Pimentel: Right. Kiser: And you are a nice gentleman to come out here and sit and listen to

me. Pimentel: Well, thank you. On behalf of the Oral History Program, or Project,

which is part of the Society of Former Special Agents of the FBI, I want to thank you for your time and all your time in the Bureau, also, and what you’ve done. And you, you will become a part of the Oral History Project.

Kiser: Okay. Pimentel: Eventually all of these interviews will end up at the National Law

Enforcement Officers Memorial Museum when that’s built.


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Kiser: Wow! Pimentel: Anyway, you’ll be among the many that we’ve been interviewing. Kiser: Yeah. Pimentel: Thank you again. And it’s now 12:25.

fbi kiser intervie · the office, took some type of a ... oh boy (laughing). kiser: to which point,...

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