PUBLIC INFORMATION MEETING TUESDAY, MAY 5, 2015 AT TOWN OFFICES ANNEX LARGE MEETING ROOM 261 GEORGE RYDER ROAD CHATHAM, MASSACHUSETTS FOR THE PROPOSED Improvements on Main Street (Route 28) From George Ryder Road to Barn Hill Road Project Project No. 606596 Project Management IN THE TOWN OF CHATHAM, MASSACHUSETTS COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS MASSACHUSETTS DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION HIGHWAY DIVISION THOMAS TINLIN ACTING HIGHWAY ADMINISTRATOR PATRICIA A. LEAVENWORTH, P.E. CHIEF ENGINEER

PRESENTERS Marie Rose, Moderator, Project Management Section, MassDOT, Highway Division Pam Haznar, District 5 Office, MassDOT Bill Travers, District 5 Office, MassDOT Jim Hoyle, Federal Highway Administration, District 5 Joe SanClemente, Design Consultant, Howard Stein Hudson Nate Cabral-Curtis, Engineer, Howard Stein Hudson Walter Mantani, Arlington Typing & Mailing SPEAKER INDEX Name Page Marie Rose 4,33-36,38,45,46,54,58,61, 63-70,73-78,82,89-91,93,98, 100,111,113,115-117,120, 127-133 Joe SanClemente 5,37,45,46,67-74,84-90,92- 96,98-101,103-106,108,109, 112-118,121,128,130,131,133 Rosalie Moretti 34,120,121 Rick Leavitt 35 Elaine Gibbs 36-38,50 Gary Seasholtz 54 Dr. Burns 58 Margaret Tompsett 61 Florence Seldin 63 Karen McPherson 64 Steve Buckley 66-78,130-132 David Oppenheim 78 Paul Dooley 82 Jeff Ford 84,68-89 Mo Bancroft 89-91 Dan Meservey 91-96,98-100

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SPEAKER INDEX (continued) Name Page Bill Tuxbury 100,101,103-105,107-109, 127,128 Ronald Meservey 111-115 Gloria Freeman 116-118 Seth Taylor 122,128,129 Nate Cabral-Curtis 127 Exhibits Description Page Notice of Public Hearing/Brochure 135-148 Sign-In Sheet 149-151 Public Comments

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P R O C E E D I N G S

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Okay. Welcome, 1

everybody, to this Public Information Meeting. My 2

name is Marie Rose. I am with MassDOT Highway 3

Division from the Boston Office, and I am going to be 4

moderating tonight's Public Information Meeting. We 5

have Walter here from ATM, who will be doing a 6

verbatim transcript of the hearing, and we also have 7

Joe SanClemente from Howard Stein Hudson. He is the 8

Design Consultant, as well as Nate Cabral Curtis, who 9

will be talking about the public outreach that has 10

been done to date. We also have Pam Haznar from our 11

District 5 Office in Taunton, and Bill Travers from 12

our District 5 Office in Taunton, as well as Jim 13

Hoyle, who is Federal Highway Administration person in 14

this district, or he is assigned to this district. 15

Okay. So, what we are going to do tonight 16

is we are going to give a presentation of the project, 17

what has been done to date, what the improvements are, 18

what has been done since the Public Hearing that was 19

held in February, and then we are going to go over the 20

public outreach that has been done to date for this 21

project, and then, we will have a question and answer 22

period. So, I am going to turn it over to Joe 23

SanClemente, and he is going to talk about the project 24

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about the project a little bit more in depth with a 1

presentation. 2

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Alright. Thank you. So, 3

just to give a brief overview, I will talk about the 4

project limits tonight, where we are. This is Route 5

28, Main Street, headed from the left to right on your 6

screen. We are taking a look at reconstructing the 7

section of Route 28 which is State Highway layout from 8

George Ryder Road to Barn Hill Road, also including 9

all the intersections in between. 10

So, what I would like to do is give a brief 11

chronology of the project itself. This project has 12

been under much discussion for more than a decade, and 13

I would like to talk about some of that project 14

history, go through some of our data collection 15

results and over field observations of what some of 16

the issues are out there, talk about the project 17

goals, and also talk about our design since we have 18

been involved with the project, and where we are 19

currently in the design phase. 20

So, as I noted, this project has been much 21

discussion since 2003 and probably even before then, 22

starting with the Town's Comprehensive Plan, which was 23

adopted municipally by the Town during Town Meeting 24

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Meeting and did call out to work with MassHighway, at 1

the time, which is now MassDOT, to work on Route 28 2

and work out roadway improvements, including 3

specifically George Ryder Road and Barn Hill Road, and 4

also to address non-auto alternatives out there, take 5

a look at pedestrian and bicycle conditions and really 6

improve the conditions that are there. 7

Following the Town Meeting -- pardon me. 8

Following the Comprehensive Plan, the Town worked with 9

the Cape Cod Commission, secured a grant for the West 10

Chatham Grant Study, where the Town hired a consultant 11

and started to take a look at what are some potential 12

alternatives, how can these improvements that were 13

identified in the Comprehensive Plan be addressed, 14

what those could potentially start looking like and, 15

following that, the Town hired a traffic consultant 16

where alternative analysis was developed and we really 17

started taking a look at what types of alternatives to 18

traffic control we could do at Barn Hill Road or 19

George Ryder Road, or what that cross section in 20

between on Route 28 might look like. 21

Howard Stein Hudson got involved late 2012, 23

early 2013, and what we did is we really hit the reset 24

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reset button on the design process. When we got 1

involved, there were a lot of different alternatives 2

that were being discussed. We thought there was a lot 3

of confusion amongst the different alternatives, 4

whether a median was being proposed, whether a signal 5

was being proposed or a roundabout, and we really 6

wanted to understand how this project can address 7

those goals that were originally developed as part of 8

the Comprehensive Plan and move a project forward that 9

really met the needs for most of the people in the 10

Town of Chatham. 11

So, we actually first, we didn't show any 12

design when we first came out to the public in April 13

of 2013 but we did come up with a recommended solution 14

in late 2013, which was voted on by the Board of 15

Selectmen, and we just submitted the twenty-five 16

percent design this past February of 2014, and we had 17

our public hearing just this last February. 18

So, what I would like to do is go through 19

some of this preliminary planning work that was done 20

before HSH was involved. So, the Comprehensive Plan, 21

which really asks for provision of a safe and 22

functional town wide transportation system, and asks 23

the Town to work with the Highway Department to really 24

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really address the safety issues along this section of 1

roadway, specifically at those two intersection 2

locations and really bring it up to current standard 3

to meet the needs of everyone, just not automobiles, 4

and that was adopted unanimously at Town Meeting. 5

So, a couple of years later, as part of the 6

West Chatham Grant Study, as I noted, where the Cape 7

Cod Commission worked with the Town to receive the 8

grant, this is when alternatives started being 9

developed and that discussion started happening, what 10

could be here, how could this roadway be changed, how 11

can we start addressing these goals to enhance 12

conditions for everyone. 13

Here is a potential roundabout design of 14

Barn Hill Road, and you will see it is a very large 15

roundabout, much larger than what we are proposing. 16

It actually goes through the Harding House on the 17

north side of the screen, and then it actually goes to 18

the Dunkin Donuts property in the southeast quadrant 19

of the roundabout, so very big. 20

It also started taking a look at what could 21

be done along the roadway. Maybe there's introduction 22

of turning pockets or raised islands along the 23

roadway. Maybe there are some differences with the 24

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with the planting islands, or some of the landscape 1

along the corridor. 2

Here is another option taking a look at 3

Barn Hill Road, potentially adding a traffic light at 4

that location, something that we have heard quite a 5

bit of discussion about, whether a light could be 6

added, could it only be seasonal, does it have to be a 7

permanent traffic light if we were to add a traffic 8

light. 9

Moving down to George Ryder Road where 10

there were a number of issues that were identified 11

there and started to taking a look at maybe a median 12

gets added. Maybe there is a way to have a crosswalk 13

and make it easier to get across the road but really 14

not a complete overhaul of the intersection, looking 15

at tweaks to the intersection. 16

So, in 2010 in June, there was a Public 17

Information Meeting where the Town's traffic 18

consultant at the time really tried to take it a 19

little bit further with a little bit more data 20

collection and taking a look at what else could be 21

done, and another roundabout alternative was developed 22

at Barn Hill Road. This one is not all that unsimilar 23

from the other project. It is starting to look at 24

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starting to look at different alignments along Barn 1

Hill but, once again, the -- I guess the, what is 2

that, cyan, or the pinkish color, the hot pink, is the 3

land-taking that would result from these. So, we are 4

looking at some fairly large land-takings and, once 5

again, going into the buildings themselves, so not 6

really an entirely feasible option. 7

Here is another roundabout scheme that was 8

developed with a much different alignment along the 9

state highway that actually pushes Route 28 up into 10

the north along the roadway so, once again, not a 11

terribly feasible option. This would have tremendous 12

impact on that particular business. 13

Moving down the road, a scheme was 14

developed during that same meeting taking a look at a 15

traffic signal at George Ryder Road and here is George 16

Ryder Road south, Route 28, and George Ryder. Ocean 17

State Job Lot is up in the right corner. It looks at 18

what you would need if you were to put a traffic 19

signal in and it shows that turning lanes would 20

probably be needed. It shows a widening of Route 28 21

with land acquisition as a result of that widening to 22

put the turn pockets in, and also land acquisitions 23

into the Ocean State Job Lot parking lot to be able to 24

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to be able to get that accommodation for the traffic 1

signal. 2

So, here is a comprehensive plan that shows 3

another option considering a traffic signal at Barn 4

Hill Road and a roundabout at George Ryder and the 5

removal of the two-way left turn lane using paint 6

along the corridor. I think there are a couple of 7

dedicated left turn pockets down near the post office 8

in Seaquanset but that was an option that was looked 9

at. 10

Here is a slightly more rendered up version 11

of that drawing that was shown where they have some 12

limited left turn lanes but the two-way left turn lane 13

is removed and a very large roundabout alternative on 14

George Ryder Road. I believe this is a hundred and 15

sixty foot diameter, much bigger than what we are 16

proposing in our current design. 17

Here is a slightly different tweak to the 18

prior one. This one starts to introduce raised 19

islands along the Route 28 corridor, so removal of the 20

two-way left turn lane but raised islands with grass 21

plantings on them, and I will emphasize again, these 22

are not our current designs. I am really just going 23

back through time. This is 2010, and what this design 24

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design would do that I will point out is this would 1

actually preclude left turn access in and out of the 2

businesses and I know that that was a big comment that 3

we got when we started this process, that that was a 4

major concern for the businesses along this stretch of 5

roadway. 6

So, later on in September, it was 2010, it 7

was continued corridor discussion, and another 8

roundabout alternative was introduced at George Ryder 9

Road, where we looked at a substantially altered 10

alignment for George Ryder Road. Often there is the 11

goal to try to straighten out the alignment, try to 12

get that ninety degree connection in the roundabout to 13

make it work as efficiently as possible but it 14

resulted in a massive land-taking from the Ocean State 15

Job Lot, going through their parking lot, and still a 16

very big diameter, another hundred sixty foot wide 17

roundabout, looking at some limited turn pockets, 18

raised islands along the corridor that would preclude 19

access to businesses, and then a traffic light down at 20

Barn Hill Road, which also is even looking at I guess 21

maintaining the turn lanes, and even adding a turn 22

lane into Barn Hill Road in the westbound approach, 23

which would also likely require additional right-of-24

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additional right-of-way. 1

September 2010, here is another view of 2

that option. I think this is the straightened out 3

alignment again on George Ryder Road. I will try to 4

go through these quickly. 5

March 3rd, 2011, the discussion continued 6

with more alternatives along this roadway and here is 7

a composite scenario that was developed, kind of 8

highlighting where the land acquisitions would be 9

required, mostly at George Ryder Road, some along the 10

segment, and then even sliver-takings all along 28 11

down, as you get down towards Barn Hill Road. 12

Here is a slightly different option with a 13

signal alternative at both locations and this option 14

looked at turning pockets, having turning pockets 15

throughout the entire corridor for all the different 16

businesses heading in both directions. 17

During that same meeting, some of the 18

neighborhood groups presented their own plans. Here 19

was a -- by one neighborhood group that looked at a 20

two-lane section with crosswalks. I don't believe 21

there are any dedicated turn lanes, and then, here is 22

another option that was presented by a different 23

neighborhood group at the very same meeting, that 24

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showed turning pockets throughout the corridor with 1

raised islands and crosswalks, and I believe this was 2

a follow-up to that same presentation that suggested 3

traffic signals at both of the intersection locations. 4

Following this, through June and July of 6

2011, these four scenarios, there were four scenarios 7

that were presented, two that were developed by the 8

consultant and two developed by the neighborhood 9

groups, further consideration by the Board of 10

Selectmen as they worked towards advancing the project 11

initiation forum to really initiate a MassDOT project 12

and really define what those goals were going to be. 13

So, the Composite Scenario 1 was removal of 15

the two-way left turn lane, painted islands in the 16

middle of the roadway, a very large roundabout at 17

George Ryder Road, hundred sixty foot diameter, and a 18

traffic signal at Barn Hill Road. A second option was 19

signalize both intersections and adding dedicated turn 20

pockets throughout the corridor with painted islands, 21

and then, the other options were those prior to that I 22

had shown from the neighborhood groups that had 23

developed other scenarios for what this corridor might 24

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might look like. 1

Ultimately, as part of the project 2

initiation forum, there was no one alternative that 3

was selected but we were given pretty clear goals of 4

what some of the goals were that we wanted to achieve 5

with this project and what I would like to say is a 6

lot of these goals were very reflective of what was 7

outlined in the Comprehensive Plan for trying to 8

improve conditions out there, safety, bicycle 9

conditions, pedestrians conditions, and these were the 10

broad general goals that we received, and this is 11

really kind of that sketch that kind of got us 12

started. 13

So, when we got involved in late 2012, 14

early 2013, we wanted to understand what happened. We 15

came out. We had a Public Information Meeting. We 16

didn't have anything drawn up. We wanted to 17

understand what the goals were, what the purpose of 18

this project was, what is it that we can achieve and 19

how can we develop a solution that best meets all the 20

different goals that we are trying to achieve out 21

here? 22

So our process, as I noted, we started in 23

April 2013. We launched our own dedicated web site 24

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where every day since then we have been posting every 1

material that we presented in a public forum. We have 2

posted email correspondence from individuals. We 3

received hundreds of emails. We have had dozens of 4

phone calls. I have met with dozens of people one-on-5

one since that time, and we have had several Board of 6

Selectmen meetings throughout that time. We have been 7

working with DOT and the Town as we work to really 8

refine this project. 9

The design was submitted on February 28th, 10

2014. During that one year period from February 2014 11

until when we had the Public Hearing in February of 12

2015, we worked very closely with MassDOT in Boston 13

and District 5, further refinements to that design, 14

where we took a very hard look at how the roundabouts 15

function, how the alignment was set to make sure that 16

these worked optimally and that it can handle all the 17

different design vehicles that are out there. So, a 18

lot of different tweaks when we came out in February 19

of 2015 when we had the Public Hearing and presented 20

that to you a couple of months ago. 21

So, tonight I do have a -- actually, before 22

I get to that, I want to just reiterate what the 23

project goals were and what is interesting to me is 24

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that these are the goals that were given to us as we 1

looked at the Comprehensive Plan and I feel like we 2

have heard pretty much the same type of goals as we 3

have gone through this process, meeting after meeting, 4

and I think that most people agree that there is some 5

room for improvement out here. The goal is to really 6

improve safety for all modes. 7

This is a roadway that only serves 8

automobiles. There is a sidewalk on one side of the 9

street and it is not on the same side of the street as 10

where the commercial businesses are. It is difficult 11

to get across the road at Barn Hill Road and George 12

Ryder Road. There are no dedicated crosswalks right 13

at that intersection. You have some mid-block 14

crossings but they are really not that great to cross. 15

There was a desire to improve the 17

appearance along the corridor, make it have less of a 18

highway feel to it. We have a very wide, over-built 19

section of roadway out there. I think it is actually 20

the only section of Route 28 that has a two-way left 21

turn lane and has businesses primarily on one side of 22

the roadway, and primarily the major third goal was 23

that businesses are important and we want to preserve 24

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access to business and make sure that we are not 1

limiting the ability for businesses to do business on 2

this section of roadway. 3

So, as part of our kind of resetting the 4

processes and getting a fresh start, we did a much 5

more extensive data collection process than had ever 6

been done as part of the prior planning efforts, 7

including cuts on all the driveways, observations 8

during various times of year, looking at site distance 9

limitations and really understanding how everything 10

functions out here, whether you are a motorist, a 11

pedestrian or cyclist, or someone with a disability 12

that is trying to make your way through this corridor. 13

I don't intend to go through all the 15

different issues but this image really starts to lay 16

out all the various issues and where they are located 17

throughout the corridor. The two intersections at 18

George Ryder Road and Barn Hill Road do have some 19

congestion issues, particularly during the busy 20

shoulder months, or in the summer months, where they 21

are operating at a poor level of service because of 22

stop controlled intersections. 23

George Ryder Road is particularly a 24

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challenge because of its location on a horizontal 1

curve. If you are on the inside of the curve, it is 2

really difficult to see when you are trying to pull 3

out of that roadway and you are further challenged by 4

a very wide cross section where, as people start 5

approaching that roadway, they don't know where to 6

stop and, if somebody does stop to let you out, the 7

road is wide enough for them to go around that car 8

that was nice enough to stop for you. 9

So, a lot of different types of issues; the 10

sidewalk, as I mentioned, is only on the north side of 11

the roadway while most of the businesses are on the 12

south. We observed a lot of people walking through 13

these parking lots, trying to get from business to 14

business or just through the corridor, and quite a few 15

sight line limitations over the years. We found a lot 16

of the signs and the landscaping has begun to encroach 17

in the State Highway layout, making it very difficult 18

as you are coming out of one of many of the driveways 19

on the south side of the roadway to see and be able to 20

get out onto the roadway. 21

So, taking a look at George Ryder Road, 23

this is looking eastbound towards Downtown Chatham. 24

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You have a lot of sight line obstructions on the 1

northeast corner of the intersection. Another 2

complication with this roadway is that you have an 3

offset alignment between George Ryder Road and George 4

Ryder Road South. So, if you are coming out of one of 5

those roadways, you not only have to look diagonal but 6

you are on the inside of a horizontal curve and you 7

have to perceive and react to a vehicle that is coming 8

around that curve and it is very difficult. There are 9

a lot of different places to look and try to find a 10

safe gap to get out onto the roadway at that location. 11

You will also note that there are no crosswalks 12

across the street, nor is there really a good location 13

to cross someone safely. 14

This is -- across the street now at George 15

Ryder Road South looking west towards Harwich, these 16

are some of the sight -- types of sight line 17

limitations that we see as these plantings and other 18

landscape elements have found their way closer to the 19

edge of the roadway and much of it is within the State 20

Highway layout today. 21

We are also challenged with coming up on a 22

grade. One of the issues with the roadway is that it 23

is super elevated, meaning there is a pitch in the 24

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roadway. It is actually the equivalent of a design 1

speed for forty-five miles an hour. Because it has 2

that pitch, it makes it a little bit more comfortable 3

for a vehicle at a higher speed to travel through the 4

area. One thing that our project would like to do is 5

look at reducing and limiting that super elevation so 6

the vehicles are going at a much more comfortable 7

speed for a village setting, and here is that picture 8

that shows that pitch in that roadway looking 9

westbound. Ocean State Job Lot is off on your right. 10

The roadway itself, it currently doesn't 11

have any shoulders. If you are a cyclist, there is 12

really nowhere to go. It is a one foot or no shoulder 13

in some cases but you have this very wide two-way left 14

turn which we have looked at very extensively. I know 15

there is great debate about the two-way left turn lane 16

but we found that it really does not meet minimum 17

requirements for a two-way left turn lane and, if we 18

were looking at rebuilding this road today, it 19

wouldn't be built. Simply, we just don't have the 20

volume for left turning vehicles that would be 21

required to warrant it, nor are dedicated turn pockets 22

warranted based on the turn volumes that we saw, and I 23

will also talk about how the roundabouts that we are 24

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roundabouts that we are proposing will help address 1

some of those turning issues. 2

We also have very limited pedestrian 3

accommodations. CCRTA operates bus service along this 4

road. There is no place for people to wait for a bus 5

or even walk when they get off a bus. Here are 6

pedestrians getting off in the Kream 'n Cone driveway. 7

Here is an image of sight line obstructions as you 8

are coming out of Seaquanset Road, where you have 9

walls, utility poles and shrubs that are in the way, 10

really blocking that sight line, and this is an issue 11

up and down the corridor at many of the driveways as 12

you are trying to get on Route 28. 13

One of the other issues is the bicycle 15

accommodations out there. As I noted, on 28, you 16

don't really have a lot of option. There is no 17

shoulder. It is not a very safe road to be on or a 18

comfortable road for a beginner or an intermediate 19

type cyclist. You have to be a very experienced 20

cyclist to want to go down Route 28. 21

Meanwhile, the Old Colony Rail Trail is 22

just north of the project limits and comes very close, 23

within probably a few hundred feet of Route 28. 24

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28. Meanwhile, the Town had recently built a shared 1

use path along Barn Hill roadway, just south of Route 2

28, that provides a connection to Harding Beach. So, 3

there is that missing gap, that segment that is 4

missing in that bicycle network. 5

Here is a picture of some cyclists going 6

through the area. There are also several alignment 7

issues in the corridor. You can see here the vehicles 8

tracking over the WL center line as they head 9

eastbound across Barn Hill Road. We have a flashing 10

beacon today, which really doesn't provide much 11

benefit. It is pretty outdated. It is not very 12

visible from Route 28. It was -- I am not sure why it 13

is there. 14

There’s also some obstructions. Actually, 15

if you are coming up Barn Hill Road where you are 16

looking north towards the Harding House, you can see 17

where there has been some vehicle tracking over the 18

curb. There is really nothing to protect that 19

building from the turns making a right onto Route 28 20

and actually the stop sign is behind the building. 21

You can't see it as you are heading up northbound. 22

So, one thing that we heard is why can't we 23

just add a sidewalk? Why can't we just do something 24

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simple out here? Why do we need all of what we are 1

doing? 2

Well, anything beyond a simple resurfacing, 3

which is currently happening along that roadway, 4

requires that we meet the State's Complete Street 5

requirements that meets those accommodations for 6

people other than motorists. So, we really need to 7

accommodate everyone, people with accessibility 8

constraints, bicyclists, and pedestrians. The roadway 9

is being resurfaced because it was a tough winter, and 10

that is really to hold the roadway together as we work 11

towards advancing the project but that was something 12

that was needed to really maintain the roadway out 13

there. 14

When we looked at this corridor, we broke 15

it down into three pieces. There's the two 16

intersections, George Ryder Road and Barn Hill Road, 17

that need some form of traffic control. They warrant 18

a traffic signal but the traffic is only warranted a 19

few months of the year. June volumes, which we based 20

a lot of our data collection analysis on, are twice 21

the volume of what you see in April and, when you get 22

into those winter months, the volumes are even lower. 23

When you get into August, traffic volumes are about 24

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fifteen percent higher, ten, fifteen percent higher 1

than what you have in June. So, we are looking at 2

that elevated condition but the reality is that those 3

traffic conditions are only warranting the traffic 4

signal a few months of the year and we can't build a 5

seasonal signal that will go on flash operation. It 6

wouldn't provide that benefit twelve months of the 7

year for the non-motorists, such as the pedestrians 8

that want to cross the street. 9

So, we did look at what would be the best 10

thing, whether we retain the current configuration and 11

without addressing any of the safety issues out there, 12

or whether we look at a moderate roundabout and we 13

started looking at a much smaller roundabout than what 14

was proposed before. Before they were looking at a 15

hundred sixty foot diameter roundabouts that had huge 16

impacts on the adjacent parcels, and we looked at a 17

much more trimmed down design, getting that down to 18

about a hundred and twenty feet, which has a much 19

smaller diameter and less impact on everything. 20

And then there is the corridor itself and 22

what is that section? We have about a sixty foot 23

right-of-way that is out there today. So, it's a 24

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limited right-of-way, and it is primarily occupied by 1

pavement for vehicles, and the two-way left turn lane 2

really makes it almost impossible to maintain 3

everything. We can't maintain three travel lanes and 4

also add all these additional accommodations, such as 5

sidewalks and bicycle accommodations. It simply 6

doesn't fit within the right-of-way. The current 7

design all fits within the right-of-way along the 8

segment between the two intersections. 9

So, here is a view of Route 28 looking 10

eastbound, just kind of showing where that right-of-11

way limit is. On the south side of the roadway, we 12

have a utility corridor on the eastern side of the 13

roadway. On the left there is a little, there's about 14

ten feet of land north of the existing sidewalk that 15

is within the State Highway layout, that we do have 16

room to work with but much of it is dedicated to 17

pavement out there. We have this very limited 18

shoulder. The proposed design really takes a look at 19

repurposing this space and then giving it back to the 20

other modes. 21

So, the design that we ultimately 22

recommended was to take down the corridor to a two-23

lane cross section and provide the dual roundabouts. 24

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We really did feel that the signal was not the best 1

solution at either location, nor did we get much 2

favorable support from most folks about its urban 3

appearance or having it only operate a few months of 4

the year, which really isn't a feasible solution, and 5

the roundabouts provide that flexibility to be able to 6

handle the varying flows throughout the year, whether 7

it is that peak condition in the summer or the off-8

month period, whether it be the winter or the shoulder 9

season, can really handle that type of volume 10

fluctuation, and even during the busier months, in 11

June, we analyzed it is still operating below 12

capacity. So, even when you get into that 4th of July 13

holiday, we can easily process the type of vehicles 14

that are going to have to go through this location. 15

Now, by removing the turn lane and having 17

the dual roundabouts, we have the ability for vehicles 18

not to have to take a left turn and it really 19

precludes that need to have to have turning pockets, 20

which are only borderline warranted in a couple of 21

locations along the corridor. They are just simply 22

not warranted at many of the driveway locations that 23

don't have a lot of volume turning in and out of them 24

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and out of them and, by having two roundabouts, we 1

have that ability for people to make, have that left 2

turn accommodation without constraining the right-of-3

way further or looking at land acquisitions along the 4

corridor. 5

And so, one thing I will add, in December 6

of 2013, this was approved by the Board of Selectmen 7

for us to advance to the twenty-five percent design 8

phase, and this is the current, the design that we 9

showed, just a couple ago. There were some slight 10

modifications from when we got the approval from the 11

Board of Selectmen to advance to twenty-five and this 12

design where we looked at a slightly different 13

alignment for the George Ryder Road roundabout, where 14

we actually straightened out, we straightened out the 15

alignment to be able to help make truck access work 16

better through that roundabout and we also slid the 17

roundabout westward. 18

The design that we had in our twenty-five 19

percent, actually pre-twenty-five, when we went to the 20

Board of Selectmen, actually precluded left turn 21

access into the Ocean State Job Lot. So, this 22

revision slid the roundabout over that allowed us to 23

maintain that left turn access on Route 28. 24

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So, what I would like to do is show you 1

where we are today. We are currently up to pre-2

seventy-five percent stage. We are looking to do a 3

seventy-five percent submission sometime in late June 4

to MassDOT but I would like to talk about some of the 5

different comments that we received and the changes 6

that we have here before you tonight. 7

So, I have cut the roadway study here into 8

three pieces, the first being George Ryder Road. One 9

of the small changes that we made is that the raised 10

islands were, at the hearing, they were concrete and 11

we have now taken a look at a landscaped option that 12

would add a little bit more green space in the roadway 13

to try to green things up a little bit. 14

Moving down towards the corridor, one of 15

the comments that we started receiving were that, was 16

there ability to -- when we came out for the hearing, 17

we had the sidewalk right up against the edge of the 18

roadway on the south side of the project limits and we 19

received a number of comments on whether or not we 20

could introduce a grass strip similar to what we are 21

proposing on the north side, and we were able to 22

actually make that flip on the south side by reducing 23

the travel lanes from eleven and a half feet down to 24

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eleven feet, and we also looked at reducing that 1

sidewalk width by taking a foot out of it down to 2

about five and a half feet, which allowed us to make 3

that switch on the south side of the roadway while 4

still avoiding any utility poles, which was our 5

primary concerning for cost and coordination. So, now 6

you do have that green buffer on both sides of the 7

roadway. 8

We are starting to take a look at lighting 9

along the corridor, whether it be some type of 10

pedestrian scale lighting, likely on the south side of 11

the roadway, and there would also be some lighting 12

required at the roundabouts themselves. Right now, at 13

this point, it is still early in the design to know 14

what that lighting would look like, other than that we 15

are exploring what it would potentially look like. 16

Moving down towards the Barn Hill Road 18

intersection, we received a lot of comments about 19

where sidewalks go in the project limits. As part of 20

the Complete Streets requirements, we are required to 21

have pedestrian and bicycle accommodations on both 22

sides of the roadway throughout the project limits but 23

we did feel that the, on the east side of Barn Hill 24

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Hill Road, we did have a good reason to request the 1

design exception where we are proposing to truncate 2

the sidewalk on the east side of Barn Hill roadway at 3

the crosswalk and that is because today the Town does 4

have that pathway on the west side of Barn Hill 5

roadway, but there are no plans to ever extend that 6

sidewalk south of Barn Hill on the east side, and this 7

allowed us to eliminate one land acquisition at the 8

Dunkin Donuts property and save a couple of trees that 9

were within the State Highway layout. So, I think it 10

is a good change. 11

Another small change that we did is the ten 12

foot multi-use path had previously gone right up 13

against the curb at the Barn Hill roundabout so that 14

we could minimize the land acquisition of the Hook 15

Fishermen property but we are going to taper that down 16

from ten feet to eight feet just at the roundabout and 17

introduce a two foot grass strip and there will be a 18

split rail wood fence at that location separating the 19

multi-use path from the roadway just for that short, 20

about a hundred foot, section. 21

So, I have just a couple of images to show 23

of what this will potentially look like. Here is sort 24

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sort of a before picture of what it looks like there 1

now, headed, looking westbound towards Harwich, and 2

this is an artist rendition so it is not perfect to 3

scale, perfect in the detail but it starts to give you 4

a sense of what it would potentially look like in the 5

future with the roundabout at this location. 6

Moving down the corridor looking eastbound 7

towards Downtown Chatham, here is a segment along 8

Route 28, the before picture, and then, here is an 9

after picture, and if you -- if I go back to it, you 10

can kind of see where the two-way left turn lane that 11

is in the middle now becomes the through travel lane 12

in the eastbound direction and we are really 13

repurposing that area on the eastbound travel lane to 14

help us accommodate that five foot shoulder, four foot 15

grass strip and five foot -- five and a half foot wide 16

sidewalk on the south side of the roadway while still 17

maintaining utility poles where they are. 18

Another view looking north on Barn Hill 19

Road towards the Hook Fishermen building, a slightly 20

different vantage point but what the design would 21

potentially look like with the roundabout in place, 22

and I will point out that we don't have the street 23

lighting on any of these renderings. This particular 24

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drawing doesn't show the utility poles. There would 1

still be above ground utility poles but this is really 2

just to kind of give a general sense of what it would 3

look like. 4

So, we will continue to collect comments 5

from everyone as we work to refine the design. This 6

is a pre-seventy-five. We are still making tweaks as 7

we go up the submission but our lines are always open 8

to continue to listen to everyone and accept comments. 9

As I noted, we are targeting late June for seventy-10

five percent design submission and the project is 11

currently programmed on the 2016 Transportation 12

Improvement Program for construction. 13

I know that there is some discussion about 15

the project potentially going to 2017. There was 16

another project that was first in line, that might get 17

bumped that could, would result in this project being 18

moved by one year, 2017, but that still has not been 19

determined. 20

So, I will just leave the information for 21

written question and comments, and we would be happy 22

to answer any questions or comments that you have. 23

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Okay. That was a 24

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lot to absorb. So, I think we will go to the question 1

and answers. If anybody has any comments or 2

questions, if you could just come up to the podium and 3

speak into the microphone, say your name, spell your 4

last name so that the transcriptionist can get it 5

correct. Okay, yes, you first, and please only talk 6

one at a time because it is very difficult for him to 7

transcribe people talking over one another. Thank 8

you. 9

ROSALIE MORETTI: My name is Rosalie 10

Moretti, M-o-r-e-t-t-i. I live in West Chatham. What 11

else do you want? What other information do you want, 12

just the name? 13

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Yes, and spell your 14

last name. 15

ROSALIE MORETTI: Okay. May I ask, how many 16

of you are for this project? One, two, three, four, 17

five, six. And how many are against it? Okay. I am 18

just going to guess what your reasons are. Maybe one 19

of you don't -- some of you want a rural feeling to 20

this town. I came here, left the city, because it was 21

rural, okay? It didn't have all these fancy run-22

arounds and sidewalks. I was at a meeting about 23

sidewalks in -- on Hardings Beach Road to the beach, 24

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and one man said, we need the sidewalks because where 1

is my daughter going to push her stroller? No place 2

to push her stroller. Well, what about when the 3

daughter grows up? Do you still need the sidewalk? 4

And I remember coming down and walking to 5

the beach, sand on either side. Now we have sidewalks 6

and all this paving, what is it going to do to our 7

aquifer? We are going to have the water pumped in, 8

brought in in trucks like they do in Provincetown. 9

You don't want that. 10

I have about ten more things but I am not 11

going to take any more time. You saw the hands, 12

didn't you? 13

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Yes. Yes, sir. 14

RICK LEAVITT: I am Rick Leavitt, L-e-a-v-15

i-t-t. I live on Barn Hill Road and I attended a 16

meeting here this morning. All morning long, the 17

Historical, Chatham Historical Commission has been 18

studying the road design and its impact on historic 19

buildings in the community, and they decided the road 20

would not only not have any adverse impacts, what they 21

talked about extensively was the benefit this new road 22

design would have on the older and historic buildings 23

in Chatham. 24

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MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Yes. 1

ELAINE GIBBS: Yes, Elaine Gibbs, G-i-b-b-2

s. I was at the last public hearing where, and in the 3

interim I had corresponded at length with Mr. Currier 4

35:56). So, some of these comments have to do with 5

our correspondence. He had told me that, if I 6

questioned the accuracy of the data, that I should go 7

out and pursue my own, so that is what I have done 8

with the only resources available to me as a private 9

citizen, and the only conclusion that I can get from 10

this design is that it is a beautification and 11

gentrification project funded with taxpayer money at 12

the expense of the rest of Chatham under the guise of 13

a safety project. The negative impact on business, 14

mitigation of traffic jams and the ability for 15

residents to function are way down on the list of 16

priorities in my view. I have lived here for thirty-17

three years and I have seen a change, and a lot of 18

people come here because they kind of like the way it 19

looks. 20

In my opinion, the sign-offs received by 21

various departments and committees to date to gain 22

consensus is based on incomplete data supplied to 23

them; and so, I wanted to go over how I have reached 24

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ATM, Inc 339-674-9100

this conclusion but, first of all, I wanted to 1

reference the twenty-five percent simulation video 2

that we all saw back in February, and it was a key 3

component that influenced and changed minds of many, 4

including the Board of Selectmen and, at that meeting, 5

I had spent some time looking at it and, on close 6

examination, I found that there were numerous 7

irregularities, traffic laws were broken, and a car 8

was hit broadside in order to make a turn into Post 9

Office Square. 10

Consequently, the traffic was moving very 11

smoothly. That video has been removed from the HSH 12

web site and, in its place, has put a new one without 13

a car crash, and that bothers me because it is listed 14

under the twenty-five percent video of February 2015, 15

and it is not the one we were shown. So, I didn't 16

know if there was a reason for that. 17

JOE SANCLEMENTE: My understanding is that 18

everything should be posted up there and the video 19

that you are referring to was shown at the Board of 20

Selectmen meeting in November of 2014. 21

ELAINE GIBBS: No, I had not seen it there. 22

I saw it here with the car crash. 23

JOE SANCLEMENTE: We went through the 24

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video, for the one that we did at the public hearing, 1

and we even had the exact second that you noted of 2

when that car crash happened, and we looked, and what 3

it was is, that was a pre-twenty-five percent 4

submittal when we did this simulation and what we 5

didn't do was code a conflict zone at one of the 6

driveway locations. We since recoded that, revised 7

the simulation video and the one we presented at the 8

public hearing was correct. 9

ELAINE GIBBS: Alright. Well, this is the 10

one that I took off the web site at the time of the 11

public hearing, and this was just a snapshot (38:18 12

inaudible - moves away from microphone) 13

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: But you do 14

understand that it is just simulation. It is not 15

really true, totally true to real life. 16

ELAINE GIBBS: Well, simulation does, by 17

definition, that is what it is supposed to do and, 18

since the whole point of this was to say, there is not 19

going to be any negative impact by removing the 20

turning lane, and then a car gets hit broadside, I 21

think that does say something about the particular 22

plan if you program in all the little components but, 23

be that as it may, I just wanted to go on record that, 24

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that, you know, I think that is something to be 1

considered. 2

Anyway, every other project that we have 3

done in town has had a mandatory life expectancy 4

component built in based on population growth and it 5

is normally required on any state or federally funded 6

project. So, this is the only project that I can 7

remember that, from the beginning, is going to be 8

obsolete, that ignores current population for a good 9

portion of the year with no ability to expand for 10

population growth after this is done. The premise of 11

this entire project has been primarily to reduce speed 12

and avoid accidents but the data and analysis simply 13

don't support that that has been a problem here. We 14

have far more intersections on Route 28 that have that 15

problem and, on your own web site it says, while the 16

crash rate on Route 28 is not elevated, the current 17

configuration lends itself to potentially serious 18

crashes. 19

Observations by Howard Stein Hudson have 20

given us strong indications that West Chatham is a 21

roadway of frequent near misses. Current design can 22

contribute to aggressive driving behavior, and I guess 23

my concern is that potential near misses, observation, 24

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observation, strong indications, and can contribute 1

isn't data and it is not measurable, and it shouldn't 2

be perceived as much. I mean, we can't anticipate 3

accidents but the history, the only thing we can look 4

to is history, and this hasn't historically been a 5

dangerous area and, if your objective is to slow 6

traffic, you have a number of tools available. 7

You can narrow the roads or you can remove 8

the turning lane, or you can add roundabouts but, 9

instead, you threw all three of them at us in this one 10

short stretch at a crucial, major corridor in a 11

business district vital to the entire community and I 12

think it is overkill. I initially thought it was a 13

neighborhood problem but, as I looked into it, I said, 14

this is going to impact the entire town, and the DOT 15

is responsible for the entire corridor. This is an 16

entire state road and, in your own guides, or in the 17

DOT guides, it says, roundabouts should demonstrate 18

that the changes would not introduce traffic problems 19

that do not currently exist, and I don't believe that 20

has been done. 21

No data has been collected to -- and Mr. 22

Currier and I talked about this, to the east and west 23

of the roundabouts, only from those two points 24

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ATM, Inc 339-674-9100

forward. So, there is no measurement of the backup 1

that is going to transpire on either end, necessarily, 2

because the whole point of this is to slow traffic 3

down, to funnel traffic. 4

There are four hundred and fifty parking 5

spaces down at Hardings Beach with a twice daily 6

turnover during the height of the season. The town -- 7

there is a town landing, the second busiest in the 8

town, that has many boats that are towed down there, 9

that have to go around that roundabout, again, at the 10

height of the season, and there are two marinas on 11

Barn Hill, and I don't believe the data that was 12

collected in June reflects all of that traffic. That 13

is two to three thousand cars going in and out of that 14

road, or two to three thousand events in and out. 15

No traffic impact studies were done on 17

alternate routes, and so, if we assume that there is 18

going to be backup to the east and west on the Route 19

28 corridor, which is our major corridor in the 20

summer, that people, out of desperation, are going to 21

take Old Queen Anne, Sam Ryder, Route 137 and Crowell, 22

and we don't know what that impact is going to be and, 23

like it or not, Chatham is unique, and I know that we 24

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ATM, Inc 339-674-9100

know that we are told that we have to be part of this 1

Complete Street design, that everybody has got to 2

comply but I defy you to find one town in 3

Massachusetts that is like Chatham. We are virtually 4

a peninsula with very few ways in and out. 5

We go from four thousand in the winter 6

because we have six thousand full time, and a third of 7

them go to Florida, to thirty thousand in the summer, 8

and the traffic is only going to increase. I have 9

never seen a decrease in thirty years. It is only 10

going to increase, and we are fortunate right now to 11

have that space that, if that becomes a problem down 12

the road, we can expand. We can accommodate it but 13

what you are doing is, you are drawing it in and you 14

are putting obstacles at either end that are going to 15

necessarily slow down traffic. 16

In the DOT's common guide it says, 17

attempting to plan a program of traffic calming based 18

on numerical scores or quotas is not advisable. 19

Incomplete and often misleading analysis of the need 20

for traffic calming can result. It says, before and 21

after studies, news of low cost temporary measures, 22

such as carefully arranged construction barrels, can 23

be used to identify the effectiveness of existing or 24

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ATM, Inc 339-674-9100

proposed traffic calming measures, and I had asked Mr. 1

Currier several times if he would be willing to do a 2

real live test. 3

It is done all over the country. All you 4

have to do is type in temporary roundabouts and all 5

kinds of pictures show up. For one week, since it is 6

encouraged by your own guideline and, as I said, it is 7

not all the time. Take a week during the peak of 8

July, block off the turning lane, add temporary 9

roundabouts, mark off the boundaries of those 10

roundabouts so that we can see where it is going to 11

be, so we have a visual. Put cones where the lanes 12

and the curbs are going to be and we are going to know 13

very quickly the impact of this design; and, if you 14

are concerned about that, during high season. I think 15

that would speak volumes. 16

To make such an irreversible change to 17

Chatham without doing real life testing is, in my 18

view, a no-brainer. We should be doing it. It is the 19

responsible thing to do and it should be standard 20

operation procedure for any project of this magnitude. 21

I think this project has been flawed from the 22

beginning. I think that the mindset was there that 23

this is what we are going to do, and the data 24

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ATM, Inc 339-674-9100

collected has simply been to validate that plan only 1

without being ruthlessly objective about alternatives 2

and a thoughtful analysis done on that. 3

I am not opposed, obviously, it has to be 4

redone. There are certainly blind spots. There are 5

certainly things that can be changed but to through 6

the whole kitchen sink at us when all of the residents 7

in Chatham are going to be impacted, as well, if this 8

plan is put in place and there are major traffic jams 9

to the east and west, and down Barn Hill, an increase 10

in accidents and bikers hit because they refused to 11

stay on the bike path and they are on the road, and 12

emergency vehicles have to take alternate routes, and 13

businesses shut down as a result, I want to know what 14

our recourse is, and I don't think there is any. I 15

think we are stuck with it, and I think it is going to 16

be a tragedy for Chatham, and -- or the future. 17

I think that this thing, you know, we talk 19

about it has been in -- I think this in every time we 20

do something. We have been talking about it for ten 21

years. That, to me, is immaterial, if one doesn't 22

come up with the right plan. Now, what was ok in 2003 23

is not necessarily okay in 2015, and I would really 24

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ATM, Inc 339-674-9100

really hope that you consider getting rid of some of 1

those -- there are obstacles. Get rid of something. 2

I mean, you can't take it all away from us 3

and expect when we have thousand -- tourism is life 4

blood for our businesses. This is going to impact 5

downtown, not just this area, and the DOT is 6

responsible for all of that, not just this one, and I 7

kind of liken it to the Truman Show, that there is 8

going to be this lovely bucolic twelve hundred foot 9

stretch and chaos on the outside. So, that's what I 10

have to say, and I hope you consider doing something 11

that is not going to cause traffic jams, and collect 12

data, and do real life testing because I think that 13

would solve a lot of problems and I will shut up if it 14

doesn't work but I do believe it is the responsible 15

thing to do. 16

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Just one question, 17

Joe, what is the current level of service at those two 18

intersections, George Ryder Road and Barn Hill Road? 19

JOE SANCLEMENTE: They are E or F, the side 21

streets. 22

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: And what would be 23

the level of service with the roundabouts? 24

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ATM, Inc 339-674-9100

JOE SANCLEMENTE: The roundabouts are going 1

to operate, I think, at B or C. 2

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Which I think that 3

has been explained before. 4

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Can you explain it 5

again? 6

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Sure. 7

JOE SANCLEMENTE: The side streets today, 8

the George Ryder Road approaches and the Barn Hill 9

Road approaches are stop controlled. So, you have to 10

wait for a gap on the main line to get onto that 11

street, and there are currently backups, particularly 12

during the busier traffic conditions. So, those 13

people that are going to Hardings Beach, or they are 14

pulling a boat and have slow acceleration, they are 15

trying to come out of Barn Hill, and get out onto the 16

roadway, are experiencing poor level of service. 17

On Barn Hill Road today, you have a dual 18

approach. I typically, we typically do not recommend 19

two lane approaches on stop controlled intersections 20

simply because, as a vehicle is in the left turn lane, 21

it blocks the visibility for the right turn lane, and 22

vice versa. So, it makes it difficult to get out of 23

that intersection onto Route 28. 24

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ATM, Inc 339-674-9100

On George Ryder Road, you have a similar 1

problem, which I have discussed earlier about some of 2

the complications with the sight distance limitations 3

that are out there, with the wide cross section, where 4

somebody might stop for you trying to get out of 5

George Ryder Road and somebody might just go around 6

that other car, making it very difficult for you to 7

get out on that roadway. 8

What we are doing by introducing control at 9

these two intersections is providing a systematic way 10

to process the traffic through the intersection. We 11

have modeled how these traffic conditions are going to 12

be -- how they are going to function using several 13

different tools. This is just one of those tools that 14

develops a simulation model that you looked at. 15

We also used other software. We used SIDRA 16

traffic analysis software that analyzes how 17

roundabouts are going to function. All of this 18

analysis has been reviewed by the DOT engineers, and 19

what I will say is that, while we did use June as that 20

baseline, which I know you are refuting might not be 21

that peak condition that we should look at, we are 22

still below capacity. We are operating well below the 23

capacity of what that roundabout can handle. So, even 24

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handle. So, even if we have that fifteen percent 1

fluctuation come in July or in August, we can handle 2

it because we are only at a level of service B. So, 3

it is a letter grade that we assign for how that 4

operation is going to be. So, we feel very confident 5

that it can handle it. 6

The other thing is that those locations do 7

warrant some sort of traffic control to help process 8

those flows during peak conditions and the more we 9

heard about the traffic signal was that the traffic 10

signal had that urban look. We couldn't' find a way 11

to get a signal in there that looked the way that 12

people wanted to see. They just simply didn't want 13

that city feel that would come with it, and we simply 14

can't put in a seasonal traffic light and, if we were 15

to do a traffic light, that would process the flows on 16

the side streets, you are going to have much longer 17

queues on the main line and what the roundabout does 18

is it has flowing queues that are shorter than what a 19

traffic signal would have. 20

Yes, there will be some delay introduced to 21

Route 28, but it is also going to serve all those 22

people that are on 28, that are using those side 23

streets, or live on those side streets, or going to 24

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ATM, Inc 339-674-9100

the beaches or the businesses along that stretch of 1

roadway, and it will also provide the benefit of left 2

turn access, which is a key component to this and, by 3

removing the two way left turn lane, we are able to 4

repurpose that space to help all the users that are 5

not just automobiles out there, and I have been that 6

parent pushing that baby carriage and trying to find a 7

flat sidewalk and try to get that baby carriage over 8

to a business, and I think it is important to look at 9

all the different users that are going to want to use 10

this corridor. 11

We have seen people out there walking 12

through the parking lots, along the shoulder of the 13

roadway. Whether it be somebody getting off a bus and 14

landing into a driveway or standing on the shoulder, 15

it is not a roadway that serves all users today and, 16

by taking the two way left turn lane out, it is the 17

only way that we can unlock that right-of-way to 18

repurpose it, to meet all the different needs of all 19

the different people that need to use it and, by 20

having the dual roundabouts, it allows us to have that 21

left turn access. If you don't feel comfortable 22

taking a left turn out of a driveway onto Route 28, 23

you can simply take a right. 24

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ELAINE GIBBS: Okay. My understanding from 1

the last public hearing is that none of these things 2

are cast in concrete in terms of complete design, or 3

Complete Streets, that there are waivers available if 4

the situation merits it, and this is our only -- our 5

second most busiest district, business district and to 6

encourage, and I had said that to Mr. Currier, it is 7

one thing if people do it but to actually encourage 8

them to get out there and walk. I have lived here 9

thirty years and I have to say, you guys are kind of 10

making it sound like there are hundreds of people 11

walking down there, dodging cars every minute. I 12

mean, I -- there are not that many walkers and I 13

suppose you could have the theory that, if you build 14

it, they will come but then you also talked about the 15

ten percent, and I asked for the data and found that 16

the weeks that you measured were the week of June 17

23rd, which is well before July 4th, which everyone in 18

town knows that is when all hell breaks loose, and 19

then you measured August 23rd, and August 23rd in 2013 20

was the Friday before school started and everyone in 21

Chatham also knows that the third week of August 22

people leave. College students have to leave. 23

Families leave because they have to get ready for 24

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school. 1

So, that wasn't peak but, even using that 2

August date, that date was eighteen percent higher 3

than the June date, not ten. If you actually measured 4

peak, which would be July or August, it could be 5

thirty, forty percent higher. So, when you say you 6

are building this to be seventy, eighty percent of 7

peak, you don't know what peak is because you didn't 8

measure it. Peak is July and August, Labor Day 9

weekend, all those kinds of days. I mean, our season 10

is not just during the summer. It's, on weekends it's 11

high but I would ask you to measure what peak is 12

because I don't think you know what you are dealing 13

with here. 14

I mean, people who live here know that it 15

is a nightmare. It's a nightmare for full time 16

residents. I am very concerned about emergency 17

vehicles. If there is a backup to the east and west, 18

which hasn't been measured, trying to get a fire truck 19

down there for a half a mile, there is no place for 20

people to turn around and get off. We don't have a 21

lot of ancillary roads. They have to go a half mile 22

in one direction or a mile in the other. 23

It is not a good place to drop these 24

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things, and I think Mr. Currier used the Martha's 1

Vineyard rotary and people love it. Well, that was 2

out in the country in conservation and farming land. 3

It was a four-way stop that had had twelve accidents 4

and there is no business anywhere. You can't compare 5

that to what we are living with, and I would hope, if 6

you just leave it the way it is in terms of width, and 7

fix sight lines and get rid of obstacles, and that 8

kind of thing, but to make it encroach where we have 9

sidewalks and grass, and the other thing, I should 10

have stopped when I had a chance but I asked him about 11

maintenance, and he told me that maintenance, we hope 12

to transfer responsibility for the grass strips to the 13

Town. The planting areas and the roundabouts we will 14

also transfer to the Town, but they typically find 15

sponsors to maintain those areas. Often nearby 16

businesses volunteer to take care of it. 17

I don't know of anybody, any businesses 19

know that, that they might be tried to -- have to go 20

out and do that. Maintenance and cost should have 21

been brought up a long time ago, and I think property 22

owners along that strip have a right to know who is 23

going to take care of it, and I would point to 24

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Christy's. If you know Christy's at the rotary in 1

Downtown Chatham, it is a classic example of what I 2

think this corridor has the potential of looking like 3

with all the grass that you are planning on putting in 4

there. 5

There was no maintenance by the owner for 6

the last three years. DOT didn't take care of it and 7

the Town didn't take care of it and, at times, there 8

were weeds three feet high; and, with no irrigation 9

included in this plan and the Town only cutting grass 10

every six weeks that grass is going to turn to weeds 11

in a matter of time. It is going to be browned out. 12

It is not going to be this greenscape that you are 13

anticipating, and I think it is going to look very 14

much like Christy's looked. 15

So, I think that there are a lot of 16

problems with this plan, and I want to like it because 17

I -- I have given myself a headache but I really, 18

really think that this needs more work. I think this 19

was a vision that people had, and they don't want to 20

change it, and I am asking you to determine the impact 21

of the traffic backup it is going to create for the 22

rest of Chatham because I think that is your 23

responsibility and to consider doing real life testing 24

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ATM, Inc 339-674-9100

doing real life testing so that we can see what it is 1

going to be like. Thank you. 2

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Okay. (applause) 3

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (55:40 inaudible 4

comment) 5

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Sure. Yes, sir. 6

GARY SEASHOLTZ: My name is Gary Seasholtz 7

and I live at 83 Chatham Crest Drive. 8

WALTER MANTANI: Excuse me. Could you 9

spell your last name, please? 10

GARY SEASHOLTZ: S-e-a-s-h-o-l-t-z. 11

WALTER MANTANI: Thank you. 12

GARY SEASHOLTZ: First of all, I would like 13

to thank you people for having this meeting tonight. 14

I was one of the fortunate few that -- well, the one-15

third, I guess, people that were in Florida while you 16

had this lovely winter weather here. So, at least I 17

get a chance to come and speak a little bit. 18

I would like to give you some of my 19

personal experience because I walk from Ridgevale Road 20

to the Squire almost every day while I am here, and 21

then back again. So, that is a two-hour walk, and I 22

observe the -- I walk the sidewalks constantly and 23

what happens is, I agree with the previous speaker 24

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speaker that there are only a handful of people 1

walking those streets. Okay? Amazingly few but there 2

are bicycles riding on those walks. Okay? I have 3

been brushed by bikes, almost run over by bikes 4

because what happens, and it will happen if you put a 5

lane in there for bicycles, because the only people 6

you will see in it, and this is experience from 7

Florida, which by the way has the number one 8

pedestrian kill rate in the nation, okay, but what 9

they do is you only get the racers that ride bikes. 10

You get the helmets, you get all the tight jeans, all 11

that stuff they wear, and they come down going like 12

hell. Okay? 13

The family people that have a kid in a 14

tricycle or a younger individual on a bike that is a 15

little bit shaky, they all ride the sidewalk. Believe 16

me. I have seen it in Florida. We live right on 17

Singer Island. I have seen it with turning lanes. I 18

have seen it with anything else. They are going to 19

ride the bikes. 20

Suggestion number one, probably it would 21

make sense to at least divert recreational type 22

bicycles up to the bike trail. We have got a bike 23

trail that goes down to town. I don't know why it is 24

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not being used and why do we need to put another one 1

right on the road when they are going to start using 2

the sidewalk anyway? Okay? Even if you put signs at 3

the beginning, at Ryder Road, and said, no bicycles 4

from here to such and such, and divert it up that way, 5

and then enforce it, you would be much better off, I 6

think, and safer for both bicyclists and people that 7

are walking. Okay? 8

Now, as far as slow down of traffic, I 9

don't go to Chatham anymore during the summer. You 10

know what? I went down one time. I got stopped. I 11

come out Ridgevale. I got stopped at Meservey's gas 12

station here by traffic all the way downtown. This 13

was in August. Okay? I mean, there's a lot of people 14

here. So, and I was headed for Bank of America. I 15

turned around and went home. You know, ever since -- 16

that was a couple of years ago and, ever since then, I 17

have never gone into town in the summertime unless I 18

walk, and I only do that once. 19

So, if I need to go to a hardware store, I 20

go over to Harwich, over there, okay, 39, in that 21

area. If I need to go out to get pizza, or something, 22

I will actually go to Harwich to get it because I know 23

they have back streets that you can follow along the 24

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follow along the main road and you can get pretty much 1

where you want to go without getting tied up in their 2

traffic jam, which they have also during the summer. 3

So, you know, if you slow the traffic down 5

any more here, it better speed it up. I mean, there 6

won't be anybody going downtown. They won't be able 7

to get here from there, so just some of my personal 8

experiences. I think you need to do something about 9

the bicycle and the sidewalks as far as bicycles 10

riding them. I mean, it is just -- it is not safe for 11

anyone and, you know, gees, I have seen that where 12

they even have -- what they do in Florida is, at least 13

where we are, they actually have a four lane road, 14

okay, and they have the nice decorations in the 15

center, and everything, and it looks wonderful. 16

It has got sidewalk only on one side, not 17

on both sides. So, you have to cross over and walk on 18

that side of the street but it looks wonderful, and it 19

really is and, when you come to all the condos, of 20

course it is a lot of high rise so there's a lot of 21

people that come down through there, they all have 22

turning lanes into those condos where, if people or 23

two or three cars are going to turn into there, they 24

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there, they don't back up traffic. If you only have 1

one lane, when somebody goes to turn into a business, 2

they are going to start slowing down, then they are 3

going to turn into that business, and all the traffic 4

behind them is going to slow down, and then, the next 5

guy that does it you are going to have the same thing, 6

you know? 7

So, no matter what you look at, if you 8

start getting people turning into these businesses, 9

they are going to slow down way ahead of time, and the 10

people behind them are just going to back up. So, 11

that's just some of my thoughts and share it with you. 12

Again, thank you for the opportunity of talking. 13

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Yes. That 15

gentleman has been waiting. 16

DR. BURNS: Thank you. Dr. Burns from West 17

Chatham. 18

WALTER MANTANI: Sorry. Would you spell 19

your last name, please? 20

DR. BURNS: B-u-r-n-s. 21

WALTER MANTANI: Thank you. 22

DR. BURNS: I think Miss Gibbs spoke of an 23

important thing. The West Chatham Association has a 24

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ATM, Inc 339-674-9100

clean-up every year, and we clean up basically that 1

segment of the road, and we get containers from Dunkin 2

Donuts and plastic bags that blow out of cars from 3

Ocean State Job Lot, probably through no fault of 4

those people but we clean it up because the Town won't 5

clean it up. They won't mow the streets, either, and 6

I just wanted to reiterate that. 7

But what I would like to do is to recap for 8

the people who are here, maybe the first time they 9

have been here, about this whole process. This -- you 10

are trying to present something that is your design 11

when, in essence, the Selectmen, Board of Selectmen 12

and a few developers started this whole process and, 13

if you want to replay the Board of Selectmen's tapes, 14

you will see that they wanted to eliminate the turning 15

lane and they wanted roundabouts, and did they go to 16

the business people, the business community in West 17

Chatham which, by the way, the business people in West 18

Chatham, there are probably forty of them, or I don't 19

know how many, forty, fifty or more, the Chamber of 20

Commerce leaves them out there hanging like a plum on 21

a cold winter's day, and they -- nobody, it is like 22

they are a segregated community. 23

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ATM, Inc 339-674-9100

However, this grand plan of getting rid of 1

their turning lane, which they, all the business 2

people really want to make sure that people can turn 3

into their businesses, and the other thing that was 4

instigated, was denigrated, a thousand feet of Route 5

28 as being unsafe when, in fact, it is the safest 6

segment, and the other thing, no one ever asked the 7

Chatham Traffic and Safety Committee what the 8

statistics were on this roadway. They were never 9

asked in this whole process whether this was needed or 10

not needed. 11

So, you can see the colloquialism that is 12

developing here, and I just want to reiterate that the 13

process started from the get go, you put it on paper 14

but the theme was put out there. We met with one of 15

your agents and he told us, he said, this is what we 16

have to do. We have to deliver this commodity to the 17

community. 18

So, the businesses were not – so, the 19

majority do not want this. That is evident. It is 20

evident by signatures, petitions, and the -- looking 21

at the design just myself, and I am not anywheres near 22

an engineer, but the curb cuts are inadequate for any 23

business to survive Shop Ahoy. They are, further down 24

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ATM, Inc 339-674-9100

further down on Barn Hill, the main one that people 1

come in and out with trailers and construction people 2

is crammed in by the building. It is a death sentence 3

for Shop Ahoy businesses. That is all I wanted and, 4

again, it was mentioned that all this whole street, 5

Complete Street process could be waived, and nobody is 6

making an effort to do that. Thank you very much. 7

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Thank you. Yes, 9

ma'am. Oh, sorry. I was pointing at both of you. 10

Sorry. 11

MARGARET TOMPSETT: This is Margaret 12

Tompsett, and I am a resident of Chatham. 13

WALTER MANTANI: I'm sorry. Your last name 14

is Thompson? 15

MARGARET TOMPSETT: Tompsett, T-o-m-p-s-e-16

t-t. 17

WALTER MANTANI: Thank you. 18

MARGARET TOMPSETT: Okay. You know, coming 19

from -- I come from England. You can hear that. I 20

have lived here for forty years, and each time we 21

visited England, there have been more roundabouts, and 22

it makes such a difference to the flow of traffic. 23

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I went to high school in Brentwood, Essex 1

and there was a terrible holdup where the London Road 2

met the Ongar Road. I lived in Ongar, and constant 3

traffic jams at the traffic lights there. They put in 4

two small roundabouts, which I thought was going to be 5

a disaster because it was -- it seemed such a crazy 6

configuration but the traffic moves. There aren't any 7

traffic jams anymore. 8

Thank God for roundabouts, and I was 9

reading some of the material in America. I mean, I 10

understand that they are new in America, and there is 11

a lot of ignorance about how they work but there have 12

been a number of places in New England, we were 13

looking at some information about some towns in New 14

Hampshire where all the businesses, everybody had been 15

against, and then, they went ahead and did them 16

anyway. I think, in one particular place, there were 17

two or three roundabouts in a row, and they were so 18

thankful afterwards because people could -- there was 19

a proper flow of traffic. People could get into the 20

businesses. 21

If you saw a business on the left hand 22

side, and you thought, oh, bother, I really wanted to 23

go over there, it was so easy just to go round the 24

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ATM, Inc 339-674-9100

roundabout and straight back and make a right turn, 1

and we all prefer making right turns to left turns, 2

don't we? And I also go a lot down, almost every day 3

down to Harding's Beach from our part of Chatham, and 4

it is such a business and it is always, I have my 5

heart in my teeth at all times of the year, trying to 6

get out of George Ryder and then, coming back, trying 7

to get out of Harding's, and that traffic, those 8

roundabouts will be a dream and I think, by the time 9

they are in, you know, five years later, everybody 10

will say, thank God we have got them. 11

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: I believe one of 12

the Selectmen wanted to speak. 13

FLORENCE SELDIN: I am an outgoing 14

Selectman, but my name is Florence Seldin, S-e-l-d-i-15

n. The only thing I want to say is that, at the 16

current time, the Board of Selectmen voted unanimously 17

to support this project in 2013. We have not changed 18

or taken a vote but any of the elements that have been 19

discussed, or HSH has put forward, things that we 20

agreed with this. We participated in many, and 21

involved with many of the public hearings. We heard 22

from this a long time. 23

I was on the Board from 2009 to the current 24

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time, and so, have heard -- I am not going to discuss 1

the various elements. Some of the Board of Selectmen 2

at that time, before that, were not necessarily a 3

hundred percent in favor but, as the project went on, 4

it moved from concept to twenty-five percent design. 5

We did get to a point where we did support the 6

project. We did support it unanimously and we have 7

not changed our position. 8

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Thank you. Yes, 9

ma'am. 10

KAREN MCPHERSON: I am Karen McPherson, M-11

c-P-h-e-r-s-o-n. I ride my bike. All year long, I 12

ride my bike. If I am going to town, I take the bike 13

path. If I am going to Larry's, I take 28. When I 14

drive, like recently when they detoured all the 15

traffic down George Ryder Road because Queen Anne was 16

closed, the traffic was backed up all the way up 17

George Ryder, practically to the police station 18

because people could not turn onto 28. 19

Summer workers live on 28, and they drive -20

- they ride down 28. We are trying to educate them, 21

if they are on that part of the bike path at George 22

Ryder Road to -- and going all the way to town to take 23

the bike path, but that is not always possible, and it 24

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and it is important to make the businesses in town 1

available to everyone and there are more, and more, 2

and more bicyclists, and the sidewalks, please don't 3

ask me to ride on the sidewalks. It is not just 4

running into the pedestrians, but it is running into 5

the curb cuts over and over, and over again. 6

So, we really need to accommodate everyone 7

and, if you are concerned about the increased traffic 8

that we have not projected properly for years to come, 9

all I hear in that is like making it a four lane road 10

instead of a three lane road, and that scares the 11

dickens out of me. 12

At any rate, if you take the path, there is 13

no access to 28 from George Ryder Road to Old Queen 14

Anne. You can't get there. So, you can't go to any 15

of those businesses and, like Mr. Seasholtz, I don't 16

drive to town in the summer, either. I ride. 17

So, I like the plan as it is. I like 18

roundabouts. The roundabout at Route 39 has made it -19

- at Route 39 and Old Queen Anne, has made it ever so 20

much easier to get through that area, in my automobile 21

and on my bicycle. So, I like the plan. Thank you 22

for your work. 23

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Okay. Yes, in the 24

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ATM, Inc 339-674-9100

front. 1

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I'll wait. Somebody 2

has been -- 3

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Yes. Somebody else 4

can go first. I can't see everybody all at once. 5

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (inaudible comment 6

1:12:16) 7

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: This man's hand has 8

been up for half an hour, right here. 9

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: The man whose hand 10

has been up for half an hour, could you raise your 11

hand again? 12

(Some inaudible comments coming from the 13

audience members 1:12:32) 14

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Yes, sir. 15

STEVE BUCKLEY: Okay. I didn't want to 16

butt in front of anybody. Okay. My name is Steve 17

Buckley, B-u-c-k-l-e-y, and I just want to clarify, 18

perhaps to the people who are not familiar with the 19

process, that the design engineer is advising the 20

Town. The HSH design engineer works for the Town. Is 21

that correct? 22

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Not now. They work 23

for MassDOT. They used to work for the Town. Now 24

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ATM, Inc 339-674-9100

they are under contract to MassDOT. 1

STEVE BUCKLEY: Oh, okay. When did that 2

switch? I mean, it was before though. Well, I guess. 3

You tell me. 4

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: I can't quite 5

remember but -- 6

JOE SANCLEMENTE: A couple of months. 7

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Yes. It has been a 8

few months, probably since January or February maybe? 9

JOE SANCLEMENTE: About that time. 10

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Okay. 11

STEVE BUCKLEY: February. So, when it gets 12

to the twenty-five percent design, is that when it -- 13

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: It differs on the 14

project. The reason why we took over is because it is 15

State Highway, even though the Town initially 16

contracted with Howard Stein Hudson but, since it is 17

State Highway, we took over the rest of the design, or 18

the design fee. 19

STEVE BUCKLEY: Okay. So -- but when the 20

alternative -- so, the initial presentation, I guess, 21

the pre-twenty-five percent design presentation was 22

given back in 2013, they were working for the Town. 23

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Correct. 24

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ATM, Inc 339-674-9100

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Correct. 1

STEVE BUCKLEY: Advising the Town because 2

the Town is the one who was the proponent. 3

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Correct. 4

STEVE BUCKLEY: At that time. So, they -- 5

I just want to make people understand that back -- up 6

until a few months ago, they were advising the Town, 7

not advising MassDOT or -- 8

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: We were still 9

involved. 10

STEVE BUCKLEY: Involved, okay. 11

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Because it is 12

ultimately going to be built with Federal and State 13

dollars. 14

STEVE BUCKLEY: Right, and as -- 15

JOE SANCLEMENTE: And it is state highway. 16

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: And it is state 17

highway. 18

WALTER MANTANI: One at a time. One at a 19

time. 20

STEVE BUCKLEY: Okay, thanks. So, as 21

Florence Seldin, our soon to be departing Selectman, 22

said a little while ago, I guess it was a five to zero 23

vote in December of the Selectmen choosing an 24

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ATM, Inc 339-674-9100

alternative. Was that what was in -- 1

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: She said it was 2

unanimous. I didn't know how many. 3

JOE SANCLEMENTE: It was December 2013. 4

STEVE BUCKLEY: December 2013, okay, and 5

so, and I was at that meeting, I guess, so it was like 6

a two hour meeting, and people got up and spoke. So, 7

I guess that was considered to be a public hearing or 8

a public -- people were commenting on the alternatives 9

that you had presented a month earlier? 10

JOE SANCLEMENTE: We -- in November of 11

2013, we recommend -- we presented our recommended 12

design and we discussed the alternatives that we did 13

considered. While not visually showing them, we did 14

discuss them at length, and I think the reason why we 15

did not visually show them was to reduce some of the 16

confusion that had happened in several of the other 17

planning processes that were there. 18

STEVE BUCKLEY: It was just a yes or no 19

question. I mean -- 20

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Yes, but I -- 21

STEVE BUCKLEY: Please don't answer. 22

JOE SANCLEMENTE: We had discussion, so I 23

am just giving you a little bit of background on what 24

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ATM, Inc 339-674-9100

we did, and what the context was of that. 1

STEVE BUCKLEY: I am just trying to get -- 2

I am trying to save people time. 3

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Thank you. 4

STEVE BUCKLEY: So, don't answer a question 5

that I am not asking. So, I just wanted to know. So, 6

at the 2013 meeting that Congress -- Selectman Seldin 7

was talking about -- 8

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Yes. 9

STEVE BUCKLEY: At the end of the meeting 10

is after -- is that -- it was at the end of the 11

meeting that they decided which one to adopt, to go 12

forward with? 13

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: I wasn't there. I 14

-- were you there, Joe? 15

JOE SANCLEMENTE: In December of 2013, they 16

voted on our recommended design. 17

STEVE BUCKLEY: At the end of the meeting? 18

JOE SANCLEMENTE: At the end of the meeting 19

to advance it towards twenty-five percent design. 20

STEVE BUCKLEY: So, everything, all the 21

alternatives were, so to speak, on the table until 22

they chose one. 23

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Yes, essentially. 24

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ATM, Inc 339-674-9100

STEVE BUCKLEY: Okay, and so, there were 1

three alternatives. Is that correct? 2

JOE SANCLEMENTE: What's your question? 3

I'm sorry. 4

STEVE BUCKLEY: Were there three 5

alternatives? I think you had a slide. I will remind 6

you. If you can pull up the slide, I'll show you your 7

slide and remind you about what the design elements 8

were. So, for the corridor, so I don't have a pointer 9

but where it says route. 10

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Yes. These are the 11

elements that were considered. 12

STEVE BUCKLEY: Okay, Route -- 13

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Correct. So, there were 14

three at each of the intersection locations and three 15

in the corridor. 16

STEVE BUCKLEY: Yes, right. Twenty-seven 17

possible combinations, right? 18

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Yes. 19

STEVE BUCKLEY: You would think that there 20

was an either/or thing, but three times three times 21

three is, yes, so it is not an either/or thing but, 22

anyway, under the Route 28 corridor, my question is, I 23

just want to clarify there were three options, right, 24

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ATM, Inc 339-674-9100

right, and you mentioned just a little while ago that 1

reduce turning -- two-way turn lane to turning pockets 2

was not warranted. 3

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Correct. 4

STEVE BUCKLEY: Okay. Did you ever show a 5

picture to anyone of what that looked like? 6

JOE SANCLEMENTE: We did not because it was 7

not warranted. 8

STEVE BUCKLEY: And who decided that? 9

JOE SANCLEMENTE: In our professional 10

engineering judgment, we reviewed traffic volumes and 11

determined that it was not warranted. 12

STEVE BUCKLEY: Uh huh. Are you required 13

to, under MassDOT Design Guide, to show your client a 14

visual depiction of all the options? 15

JOE SANCLEMENTE: The options were visually 16

depicted as part of the planning process leading up to 17

our design effort. 18

STEVE BUCKLEY: You mean the ones that were 19

taken from ten thousand feet? 20

JOE SANCLEMENTE: No, there were 21

alternatives that were developed, that showed turning 22

pockets. 23

STEVE BUCKLEY: Did anybody get to see a 24

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ATM, Inc 339-674-9100

picture of that second option, the turning pockets? 1

JOE SANCLEMENTE: There are other options, 2

such as widening the roadway, which we also didn't 3

consider because it is not warranted. 4

STEVE BUCKLEY: But you have three there. 5

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Right. 6

STEVE BUCKLEY: You made a presentation. 7

You showed pictures of what everybody knows it looks 8

like now, and then, the one you recommended, and then 9

you, wave of the hand, no picture for the third 10

option, of what a turning pocket, or islands, or 11

anything, any conceptual design would look like, even 12

though -- 13

JOE SANCLEMENTE: The turning pocket 14

scenario was visually shown in the prior planning 15

effort, which I did show earlier tonight. 16

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: From the previous 17

consultant. 18

JOE SANCLEMENTE: So, there were previous 19

consultants -- there was a previous consultant, before 20

we got involved -- 21

STEVE BUCKLEY: Oh, I have been to every 22

meeting. 23

JOE SANCLEMENTE: That did take a look at -24

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ATM, Inc 339-674-9100

- 1

STEVE BUCKLEY: Show the pictures. 2

JOE SANCLEMENTE: They showed these 3

alternatives. 4

STEVE BUCKLEY: Which one is the one I am 5

talking about? 6

JOE SANCLEMENTE: There is an option here 7

that has turning pockets, which was developed by -- 8

here it is. This is the one that was shown by the 9

prior consultant. It does show turning pockets. 10

STEVE BUCKLEY: And so, did you present 11

that at the proper time? 12

JOE SANCLEMENTE: We developed our 13

recommended solution at the time based on the prior 14

work that had been done. 15

STEVE BUCKLEY: Did you have a chart? In 16

your presentation, you had a chart of all three 17

options. It was a matrix. 18

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Yes. 19

STEVE BUCKLEY: A chart, options one, two 20

and three. Did you show this? 21

JOE SANCLEMENTE: No, we did not. 22

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Not visually. 23

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Not visually. 24

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STEVE BUCKLEY: Are you required to do 1

that, as required by the Design Guide? Are you sure? 2

I mean, you are the -- 3

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: If you have the 4

Design -- 5

STEVE BUCKLEY: I mean, you are the head of 6

Project Development, so you should be able to answer 7

that, right? 8

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: I don't have the 9

Design Guide in front of me, and it is about this 10

thick. 11

STEVE BUCKLEY: Well, is the design -- 12

okay, is the design -- if it is in the Design Guide 13

then, is it required? 14

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: I don't know the 15

answer to that. I would say no. It is absolutely 16

required, or we are going to go to jail if we don't do 17

it? 18

STEVE BUCKLEY: I didn't say jail or 19

perhaps -- I don't know what the -- I am not saying 20

what the repercussions are. I am just saying, is it 21

required or isn't it? 22

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: I don't believe it 23

is but if you know -- 24

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STEVE BUCKLEY: But it could be true? 1

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: If you studied the 2

Design Guide, I would be happy to look at it. I don't 3

have it with me. 4

STEVE BUCKLEY: Okay. Oh, well I -- we can 5

-- I can show it to you, be glad -- this is a 6

conversation I have been wanting to have for years 7

and, as a matter of fact, at that particular Board of 8

Selectmen's meeting, I tried to present a picture of 9

what that might look like and, if you want, you can 10

pull it up on your screen right now. It will take two 11

seconds but the point I am trying to make is that the 12

idea of raised islands, what that would actually look 13

like and a streetscape from somebody on the -- like 14

the ones you have been showing people, not from ten 15

thousand feet where somebody in the back can't see, 16

even make out what that is, so the idea being that I 17

tried to show it and one of the Board of -- the 18

Chairman at that time said, we are already past that, 19

or words to that effect, as if we were only talking 20

about one option, and that was before what you said 21

they made a vote. 22

So, ideally, the consultant should have 23

said, stepped up and said, well, we have, you know, 24

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everything is on the table now but I think that 1

somebody, meaning the Chairman of the Board of 2

Selectmen, was ahead of himself. So, that's my 3

opinion, and it is all on video tape. So, you can 4

always go back and see who somebody jumped the gun 5

because they got ahead of themselves from the script. 6

That is the way I look at it but we can 7

talk about it later. It is all there. It's all -- I 8

even made this available in my comments and I have not 9

gotten a reply, for a year and a half, to that comment 10

from anyone, other than Mr. Currier, who was -- who, 11

at the hearing, who was just generally dismissive of 12

anything that I had to say, and also said that my 13

testimony was a waste of time, which I don't think he 14

meant to hear. Well, you can play it back. 15

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: I did play it back 17

and I saw it, and he did not say that. 18

STEVE BUCKLEY: Well, my wife saw it, heard 19

it at home, and I have heard it on the video. So, 20

maybe you have to turn up the volume a little bit, but 21

if my wife heard it on the TV at home, then maybe it 22

was a different microphone but, in any event, he made 23

it clear that he was -- that this was a dead -- I 24

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I mean, that it was something that I had brought up 1

before and was not worthy of discussion. So, if you 2

are interested in having that discussion, I would 3

appreciate it, or somebody replying to the email that 4

I wrote a year and a half ago. 5

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Who did you write 6

the email to? 7

STEVE BUCKLEY: The Board of Selectmen. 8

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Oh. 9

STEVE BUCKLEY: Who I hope would have 10

passed it on to their advisor, and not the other way 11

around. So, I brought it up a number of times at the 12

NPO meetings, and so, I am waiting to have the 13

discussion. Thank you. 14

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Okay. Thank you. 15

Yes, sir. 16

DAVID OPPENHEIM: David Oppenheim, O-p-p-e-17

n-h-e-i-m. I was at the meeting also the morning, 18

from the historic perspective. The -- and what came 19

out at the meeting this morning is there's many 20

beautiful historic structures, there's a lot of maybe 21

not historic but meaningful structures, well-kept 22

structures in this area. Many of the properties have 23

been upgraded. Many of the properties are in the 24

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process of being upgraded. 1

The restorations that have been done in 2

West Chatham are terrific but they still are subject 3

to a barren landscape, unfriendly landscape reflective 4

-- not reflective of the neighborhood association that 5

is anticipated by the long range plan. It is unsafe 6

for pedestrians. People say there aren't a lot of 7

pedestrians. I think that one of the reasons is it is 8

not safe for pedestrians there. It is a terrible 9

atmosphere for that. 10

I have lived and had a lot of involvement 11

in West Chatham for over forty years, and I have seen 12

a lot of changes out there. I think one of the best 13

things is the upgrading that is occurring to the 14

buildings, and I think that the roadway does not 15

reflect, again, the look or the feel. The long range 16

plan calls for a neighborhood center. A neighborhood 17

center should be user friendly, not just for the 18

businesses but also for the residences because it is 19

supposed to be mixed use. 20

When this first started, I was very 21

skeptical about roundabouts. I thought that the best 22

thing to do would be just go back to a two land road 23

that had been there historically prior to the change 24

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to the turning lane, which is some time in the 1

sixties, which I commented this morning, I don't know 2

if there was a big uproar and change from such a 3

historical use to -- and I assumed it had something to 4

do with the market. 5

I think, since then, and this also reflects 6

my wife who was very in favor of the turning lanes, 7

who has now changed her mind after paying attention 8

last summer a lot, that you have been extremely 9

responsive to the concerns, legitimate concerns that 10

have been presented over the last year. I think you 11

have made a lot of adjustments. 12

You have moved the roundabouts here and 13

there, and back and forth, and adjusted it so that the 14

amount of takings are minimum. I think that there is 15

one at Ocean State Job Lot, which I think somebody 16

described this morning as a thousand square feet and 17

was going to have a horrible financial effect on Ocean 18

State, based on parking spaces, that is the equivalent 19

of parking spaces three hundred square feet, including 20

the turning area but, if you take the turning area 21

out, it is roughly two hundred. So, you are talking 22

five or six parking spaces in a parking lot that has 23

got approximately a hundred spaces, maybe more. I 24

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spaces, maybe more. I don't know exactly. Ocean 1

State, certainly if there is a taking, will be 2

entitled to compensation and I am sure they will look 3

for it, and properly so. 4

I believe you have adjusted things so they 5

don't lose their cut, the cuts that they have that get 6

them in and out of their property; same thing with 7

Shop Ahoy. 8

One of the things that I know, having been 9

in the real estate business for over forty years is 10

attractiveness adds value to your property, adds value 11

to your tenants. I think that the -- this is 12

designated to be a neighborhood center. There was a 13

visioning, a continuing visioning statement about 14

zoning changes so that this would be a mixed use area 15

with residences that can use the businesses and, if 16

there were residences across the street from, say, 17

Shop Ahoy, how would they get across the street to 18

get to Larry's PX safely, and the answer is they 19

can't, very difficult. 20

There has been the restoration of the Hook 21

Fishermen building. There is going to be residence 22

behind there. I think that this has evolved into a 23

terrific project. I think you have done a really good 24

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good job calming the traffic. I think, when this is 1

completed, it is going to add value to the properties 2

along the way. I think it is going to add business to 3

the people that have businesses in the area. 4

I don't understand this concern for 5

Downtown and how it is going to affect the traffic. I 6

do own a business, or two, Downtown and I am not 7

worried about the traffic affecting the Downtown at 8

all. There is plenty of traffic down there, and I 9

think it will continue. I think this entire proposal 10

is business friendly. It is neighborhood friendly, 11

and I strong encourage it to go forward. (applause) 12

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Is there somebody 13

who hasn't yet, that would like to speak; the 14

gentleman with the beard. 15

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We were waiting for 16

this gentleman here. 17

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Oh, I'm sorry. You 18

are right. You're right. You are too nice. Sorry. 19

You first. I'm sorry, and then the gentleman. 20

PAUL DOOLEY: I'm -- am I too loud? I am 21

Paul Dooley from KIMCO Realty. It's Dooley, D-o-o-l-22

e-y, and KIMCO Realty; we are the owner of the Ocean 23

State property. I do appreciate being given an 24

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opportunity to come and speak, and I hope I didn't cut 1

anyone off. I have eight children at home. I am 2

required to have a great deal of patience. So, I 3

don't feel as if I have been impatient at all to get 4

up here. I thank you. 5

I have spoken to, I think, Nathaniel 6

before. I know my colleagues have met with you, Joe, 7

and I have written letters, as well, to outline our 8

concern regarding the rotary, and I am not sure the 9

rotary is, or pardon me, the roundabout is the best 10

idea forward but I do know, as the property owner for 11

the Ocean State property, that it is a major taking. 12

When you change the entrance and the exit for a 13

shopping center like that, limit that, that is the 14

lifeblood of the center. You take parking, however 15

much you take also affects the center. 16

So, we look upon this as a major taking. I 17

look at your budget of about 2.3 million, which I 18

think the project that DOT has in its budget, and I 19

think the taking will in fact double that cost of the 20

project because it will hurt the center. We bought it 21

in April 2014 as an investment. It is a good 22

property, good location, and I think the taking will 23

hurt the property. 24

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So I, you know, we are not in the business 1

of taking public money but, if the taking goes 2

forward, that will be the effect. So, we ask that, 3

you know, you not take that property, and we also note 4

that really it is reserved to us. Much of the taking 5

is us. It is not any other property. So, we ask that 6

perhaps more of an equitable design or design in which 7

the taking is not as significant on our property. 8

So, I appreciate the time. I know you 10

people have displayed a great deal of patience for 11

this type of process. I am from New York but I wished 12

I -- I wish I lived in Chatham, especially on a day 13

like today. So, I thank you for your time. I do have 14

my colleague, Jeff Ford, that may add some other 15

comments on the project but I thank you very much for 16

your time. 17

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Thank you. 18

JEFF FORD: Good evening. Attorney Jeff 19

Ford here. We are representing KIMCO this evening. 20

As Paul indicated, I don't want to go over a lot of 21

what he already said but we do see this as a major 22

taking. There were some comments earlier about the 23

actual size and, in reviewing with your staff at the 24

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last meeting, the square footage that we were told was 1

actually being taken was seven thousand eight hundred 2

and fifty-eight square feet, which would be a 3

permanent taking from the front area, in front of 4

Route 28, and there was going to be an additional four 5

thousand eight hundred and two square feet taken from 6

the rear of our parcel, which may be taken for up to 7

three years on a construction easement, which is what 8

we were told. 9

So, it certainly seems to be a pretty 10

sizeable taking. I am not sure whether smaller 11

numbers have been thrown around, or whether these 12

revised plans that were rolled out tonight shaved off 13

any of that square footage. I don't know if that is a 14

question you could answer but I did speak with your 15

staff at the table at the last meeting, and these were 16

the figures we came up with. So, has that changed 17

with these, with the tweaks that have been done? Has 18

that -- 19

JOE SANCLEMENTE: I would be happy to go 20

through the plans with you afterwards with our right-21

of-way expert that is here tonight. I believe that 22

you are correct with the permanent land acquisition, 23

which is, is you follow the mouse, it is this piece on 24

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on the corner of the property, and there is a 1

temporary construction easement, which is the next, I 2

guess the outer dashed line that follows that. So, it 3

is not in the rear of the property. 4

JEFF FORD: Yes, okay. They thought it was 5

going to be. 6

JOE SANCLEMENTE: It is typically five feet 7

back from the State Highway layout along the edge of 8

the property. 9

JEFF FORD: Yes, and that could be up to 10

three years, in terms of timing? 11

JOE SANCLEMENTE: I don't think we are -- 12

potentially. It could be, we are hoping a couple of 13

construction seasons but we are still working on the 14

duration of how long it would take. 15

JEFF FORD: Okay, and then the eight -- 16

roughly eight thousand out front is a permanent, which 17

would certainly be a substantial taking in our 18

opinion. 19

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Yes. You did mention the 20

access. The access would be maintained on Route 28. 21

We originally had an option that extended the median 22

in front of your driveway on Route 28. I think we do 23

a slight repositioning of the driveway but we would 24

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retain that full left turn access for you on Route 28, 1

and that is based on the conversations that we had 2

with folks from your office that that was key to have 3

that left turn access. So, we did make that 4

adjustment. 5

JEFF FORD: Was that people with Job Lot? 6

Is that -- 7

JOE SANCLEMENTE: It was from KIMCO, with 8

KIMCO. 9

JEFF FORD: With KIMCO and Job Lot, okay. 10

JOE SANCLEMENTE: And so, that was 11

something that we tried to do by shifting the 12

alignment of the roundabout west just so that we could 13

keep, maintain that separation from the intersection 14

and the driveway, so there is enough queue room for 15

people to be able to get it, and we did have that 16

shift of the driveway. We were pushing it north but I 17

think there is some opportunity to look at the sizing 18

and the exact placement of that location. 19

JEFF FORD: And no opportunity seen for the 21

portion where the roundabout is cutting in at this 22

point? 23

JOE SANCLEMENTE: The issue that -- I think 24

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that, if you look down at the Barn Hill roundabout, 1

where I think you used the word equitable, it is more 2

in a center, where the takings are fairly balanced, we 3

tried to minimize it on either side, the best that we 4

could to fit it in there, and we got those down just 5

to a couple hundred square feet. The challenge with 6

this roundabout is that we have a gas station on the 7

northwest quadrant, and there are underground fuel 8

tanks, and we were directed to avoid the gas station 9

property because there could potentially be 10

underground contamination. You never know what you 11

are going to run into on a gas station parcel. So, we 12

did have to avoid that location and going further 13

south would potentially impact their parking but to a 14

higher degree, where there's only a few parking spaces 15

for that business. 16

JEFF FORD: I get it. 17

JOE SANCLEMENTE: We did our best to try to 18

balance it. I understand your concern. 19

JEFF FORD: Yes, and there is clearly 20

business opportunity and concerns on our end, too. 21

So, you know, and that is just one of the comments we 22

wanted to make, and maybe we can talk a little more 23

about the square footages. 24

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JOE SANCLEMENTE: Thank you. 1

JEFF FORD: Thank you. Appreciate it. 2

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: I think the 3

gentleman there, and then -- 4

MO BANCROFT: My name is Mo Bancroft, B-a-5

n-c-r-o-f-t. I work for the Cape Cod Commercial 6

Fishermen's Alliance, and I have two questions. Maybe 7

you can provide some insight. We are curious to know 8

if there is any compensation for the land, albeit 9

small chunk in front of the property, that we would be 10

compensated for? 11

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Which is the 12

property that you are referring to? 13

MO BANCROFT: I'm sorry, the Cape Cod 14

Commercial Fishermen, the former Hook Fishermen's 15

Alliance. 16

JOE SANCLEMENTE: There's a small land 17

taking there, and there is a construction easement. 18

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: So, your question 19

is? What was it? 20

MO BANCROFT: Is there compensation for the 21

taking of land? 22

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: There would be but 23

that would be determined later on when the right-of-24

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way plans are accepted, and then deemed to be able to 1

go forward, and then, someone from MassDOT's Right-of-2

Way Bureau would come and speak to you about the 3

square footage and how much the Fishermen's -- is it 4

the Fishermen's Association? 5

MO BANCROFT: We are the -- currently, the 6

Cape Cod Commercial Fishermen's Alliance, formerly the 7

Cape Cod Commercial Hook Fishermen's Association. 8

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Okay. 9

MO BANCROFT: So, I think you said the 10

Fishermen's Building a couple of times. That's -- 11

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Yes, and I am sorry if I 12

called it the wrong thing, but -- 13

MO BANCROFT: Those are our constituents. 14

JOE SANCLEMENTE: That was the building we 15

were referring to. 16

MO BANCROFT: Those are the people we 17

represent. So, it is -- 18

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Yes, thank you. 19

MO BANCROFT: My second question is, in 20

past construction projects, I understand, I am 21

relatively new at the organization, where paving has 22

occurred in the front of the building, that there is 23

some kind of clean up that happens afterwards. 24

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There's tar, asphalt, that needs to be removed from 1

the front of the building. Is there some form of -- 2

or construction debris outside. Is there some cleanup 3

built into the construction process? 4

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Yes, there would be 5

and the MassDOT would have a resident engineer on 6

site. So, you would speak to him or her about any 7

concerns you might have about if the contractor had 8

left something that wasn't cleaned up. 9

MO BANCROFT: I think that is a fair 10

answer. Thank you, guys. I appreciate your presence 11

tonight. 12

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Okay. Thank you. 13

Yes, sir, and then you. 14

DAN MESERVEY: Yes, Dan Meservey, M-e-s-e-15

r-v-e-y, and I am just representing Meservey's Hess on 16

the corner, and I have a couple of small questions on 17

the plan, and then I would like to just give an 18

overall thought process. In front of our station, I 19

know my son had asked at the last meeting about the 20

Route 28 opening and the gentleman spoke that he would 21

work with our permitted opening, and our current 22

opening is seventy feet, and the way the gas station 23

was built in 1990, and the tanks and the fills off to 24

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fills off to the right, the fuel truck has to approach 1

from the west and turn into that opening and get over 2

to the right to get in to the fuel tanks. They are 3

off in the corner there to the right, Joe. 4

JOE SANCLEMENTE: This way down here? 5

DAN MESERVEY: Right. You will see the 6

fills are on that side. If he can't get in there, he 7

is going to be sitting on 28 and, if you think you 8

have got a traffic backup from the circle, you are 9

going to have a bigger one if that truck can't get in 10

and, once he gets in there, he has got to go out 11

through George Ryder Road South, make a right hand 12

turn, come back up, and turn right and go back west, 13

and I think, Joe, you mentioned that all your 14

templates were done with a fifty-five foot -- 15

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Sixty-two was the truck 16

that we did, so sixty-two feet bumper-to-bumper. 17

DAN MESERVEY: Okay. The average -- 18

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Going to George Ryder 19

Road. 20

DAN MESERVEY: I think the average trailer 21

-- the trailers today are fifty-three feet, I think, 22

and then you have got the tractor, and I know, like 23

Ocean State -- in Ocean State Job Lot's property, 24

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quite often there's a lot -- a lot of people aren't 1

here from other parts of Chatham, but there is a 2

company that comes in that picks up vehicles and ships 3

them south, and brings them back, and they use Ocean 4

State Job Lot's property for that picking up and 5

delivery, and that truck is probably seventy-five feet 6

because that is the maximum allow length I think in 7

the State. Isn't it seventy-five feet, tractor 8

trailer? 9

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: That sounds about 10

right. 11

DAN MESERVEY: I believe it is. So, why 12

wouldn't you design a roundabout, because I know it is 13

not a rotary because you mentioned at the last meeting 14

that the Hyannis place is a rotary, right, and that 15

you could hit that at forty miles an hour. Have you 16

ever tried that? 17

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Rotary is a much higher 18

speed. They are higher speed. 19

DAN MESERVEY: Oh, okay. I heard you say 20

you could hit it at forty, and I just wondered if you 21

had ever tried to. 22

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Hit it? 23

DAN MESERVEY: I don't think you could. 24

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MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Hit the gas. 1

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Yes. 2

DAN MESERVEY: So, anyways, why wouldn't 3

you design that roundabout for the maximum size 4

vehicle that is going to use it because didn't they 5

have an issue the other day in Orleans, at the newly 6

formed roundabout with a tractor trailer stuck in the 7

middle? 8

JOE SANCLEMENTE: I am not aware of that. 9

DAN MESERVEY: Well, they did, and I think 10

they had traffic backed up in three directions to get 11

it off the inside. So, I don't know why, if this a -- 12

this is a -- 28 is a major road, coming into a major 13

town, why the roundabouts wouldn't be designed to 14

accommodate the maximum vehicle, not the minimum 15

vehicle because we have fish trucks, and then, plus 16

all these curb cuts that you have brought down, like 17

in front of Larry's PX. If you take out the eastern 18

most 28 entrance and exit, you have landscape 19

trailers, you have got boat trailers all coming and 20

going in the summertime, which I think you stated, if 21

you had done your summertime study, would have been a 22

six lane highway, right? I think you stated that but 23

we are only going down to two for some reason. 24

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So, how do you get all these boats and like 1

a thirty foot boat behind a twenty foot trailer going 2

to get into Larry's PX where if you -- can you roll 3

that thing down in front of Larry's PX for me? 4

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Yes, sure. 5

DAN MESERVEY: I know Tony is not here, but 6

I will try to speak for him. You have taken away that 7

eastern entrance. So, now they have got to come in, 8

you can probably go to the next screen because I think 9

it shows up in the next screen, the entrance. 10

JOE SANCLEMENTE: It is right on the edge. 11

DAN MESERVEY: Yes, right on the edge. 12

They all have got to come in and go out through that 13

entrance. Now, how many of these people go into that 14

plaza? Every one of them. Isn't that something? And 15

they all got to come in and go out that way unless 16

they go down 28, I mean, down Barn Hill Road. Could 17

you go to the next one, please? Now, where is that 18

entrance? 19

JOE SANCLEMENTE: It is right here. 20

DAN MESERVEY: Way down there, and how wide 21

is that, twenty feet? 22

JOE SANCLEMENTE: No, it is larger than 23

that. It is probably twenty-four to thirty feet. 24

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DAN MESERVEY: So, in the summertime, when 1

the traffic is backed up, a vehicle coming in, maybe 2

from the package store or a food delivery vehicle, has 3

got to turn in on the east entrance, come in behind 4

the building, come out there, and get back on Barn 5

Hill Road to go back. To me, it looks like it is a 6

very difficult situation for vehicles that aren't 7

cars, and I know all of your drawings were nice, had a 8

lot of bicycles and people in them, but not too many 9

cars, but that is what we are dealing with, cars. 10

Twenty-four thousand, I think; isn't that the traffic 11

count in the summertime? 12

JOE SANCLEMENTE: I don't believe it's -- 13

it's sixteen, seventeen thousand. 14

DAN MESERVEY: Sixteen thousand. Okay, I 15

exaggerated. 16

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Maybe twenty. 17

DAN MESERVEY: I'm sorry, but, yes. But I 18

mean it looks to me like we are making it pedestrian 19

friendly and bicycle friendly, which is great for a 20

thousand feet. Once they get past Dunkin Donuts, they 21

are going to pedal right back out into the road again, 22

and that is what they have got to do, but we are not 23

making it friendly for the vehicles that use that 24

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that place in the summertime. Wintertime is not a 1

problem. We all know that. 2

So, just a couple of observations; I know 3

that you -- this is what we are going to -- Nate told 4

us this our very first meeting, we were going to be 5

dealing with roundabouts. He told Doug and I we were 6

going to be dealing with roundabouts the very first 7

meeting we met with him a couple of years ago, and 8

here it is, we are dealing with them, and not that I 9

am in favor. Maybe it is going to work out all right. 10

The other people say they have seen them in England, 11

and it works fine. I know the one in Harwich works 12

fine but there's no businesses off that one. I think 13

it is a difficult situation. 14

I hope it works out because, if it doesn't, 15

we are going to have a mess but I hope you can work 16

with those openings so those two, you know, I know 17

Ocean State Job Lot's, you restored their entrance on 18

20 and I think that was good, and I hope that Larry's 19

PX and that Shop Ahoy plaza, you work with that 20

because that is going to be a difficult situation to 21

give them just one entrance and exit on 28. I think 22

that is going to be a tough one. The building is 23

right there. They have got to come back out through 24

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the front to make that turn and turn right, and I know 1

our situation for our fuel truck, the vehicles, the 2

cars aren't a problem but that fuel truck and tractor 3

trailers that come in have got to get across the road 4

and, when they come back out, they have got to make 5

that turn. So, I hope you do your homework on the 6

proper size vehicles because it should be designed for 7

the maximum not the minimum. Thank you. Any 8

questions? 9

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: I just wanted to 10

ask him what size vehicle, truck, are the roundabouts 11

designed for, the current design. 12

JOE SANCLEMENTE: So, the current design 13

guide, the requirement from MassDOT is to design for a 14

WB50, which is a fifty-five foot long tractor trailer, 15

bumper-to-bumper. That is the design requirement for 16

state highways currently. 17

We designed the roundabouts to accommodate 18

a WB67, which is I think probably seventy feet, or so, 19

bumper-to-bumper, that can go straight through the 20

roundabouts along the main line on a state highway. 21

So, we actually designed for -- 22

DAN MESERVEY: And then they can make a U-23

turn, too, right? 24

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JOE SANCLEMENTE: No, no, they can go 1

straight on the roundabouts. The WB62 can make the 2

turn, the full turns at the George Ryder roundabout 3

and a vehicle as big as WB50 can make the turns on 4

Barn Hill. 5

DAN MESERVEY: So, if not, they have got to 6

go all the way down and try to find a place to turn 7

around. 8

JOE SANCLEMENTE: The problem is, if we go 9

for the max vehicle, we are going to end up with huge 10

roundabouts again, or really big intersections, even 11

just trying to design signalized intersections becomes 12

complicated design for that big, huge truck, which 13

might only be a couple a day. 14

DAN MESERVEY: But that is what we do deal 15

with. I mean, that is -- fish in Chatham is a -- it 16

was a fishing village. I am not sure it is now. 17

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Yes. The truck with -- 18

if you have a truck with a boat trailer, those 19

actually turn a lot better than tractor trailers. The 20

tractor trailers have a lot more difficulty getting 21

through. 22

DAN MESERVEY: Well, I am talking fish 23

vehicles, fish haulers, coming out of the Fish Bureau, 24

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Bureau, coming to get fuel, or whatever. Anyways, I 1

hope you have done your homework. 2

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Thank you. 3

DAN MESERVEY: Because I think we have done 4

ours and I hope you have done yours. Thank you. 5

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Thank you. 6

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Thank you. Yes, 7

sir, and then you. 8

BILL TUXBURY: Bill Tuxbury, T-u-x-b-u-r-y. 9

A couple of miscellaneous points, just as a reminder, 10

in 2004 to 2006, I think the Cape Cod Commission 11

funded a traffic study, design study, and the Planning 12

Board, the business community, and the citizens agreed 13

and it had kept the turning lane, and had some 14

pedestrians island sort of like, what do we call them, 15

splitter islands that you have roundabouts as part of 16

their recommendations. 17

And then we had a February 2010 meeting I 18

think with the last consultant, FTS, FPS and, in that 19

meeting, he proposed roundabouts that were in Ocean 20

State Job Lot's lot, and the people in the meeting 21

said, no way. That doesn't make any sense, and so, 22

they poo-poo'd that. Now, before that when we first 23

started, we had short meetings and there were so many 24

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tables and nine out of the ten tables said keep the 1

turning lane and no parking on Route 28 because that 2

was thrown out as an issue. 3

So, here we are now with losing the turning 4

lane and we are having a roundabout with massive 5

impacts on the Ocean State Job Lot property even 6

though, when we went through this process, going back 7

2006 and going into early 2010, that wasn't what 8

people had spoken up for. 9

Now, I would also comment, and you could 10

educate me but you don't have to spend a lot of time, 11

Harwich rotary that people have mentioned is a hundred 12

and twenty foot diameter. Ours is a hundred, correct? 13

JOE SANCLEMENTE: I believe so. 15

BILL TUXBURY: Yes, and they have half the 16

traffic volume that we have. Yes. So, again, I have 17

been there, and so, they have half the volume and they 18

have a wider thing. They have four lanes. We have 19

three but it just seems as though, you know, that's 20

part of the reason it goes smoothly. 21

Now, one of the things I notice when I go 22

around that roundabout is that, when I am coming in 23

from 39, and then cars are coming up from, I don't 24

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know if it is Depot, but the distance from that car 1

entering at the next road, to me, is about three or 2

four cars can get in there and, to my right, that car 3

is maybe one or two lengths. So, I am sitting there 4

and I can't get out because, all of sudden, di di di 5

di di, cascades of cars coming because you can't get 6

out. 7

I am looking at the drawings here, and it 8

appears that people coming from Barn Hill north and 9

taking a right are going to have a problem because the 10

distance from the splitter to the left, to where the 11

car is coming out of Barn Hill is a longer distance. 12

I am just trying to understand the geometrics of this 13

exercise. 14

So, it is just going to be more, and 15

remember, we have, at peak, eighteen thousand cars a 16

day. So, and it really comes through there, and so, 17

the people -- that is back to your B and C rating for 18

the roundabout because I can't imagine. There are 19

going to still be backups at Barn Hill and similarly 20

at George Ryder Road coming down because the distance 21

between Route 28 and the George Ryder Road location is 22

again a wide stretch and it is a very narrow stretch, 23

even though it is a hundred and thirty-five degree 24

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degree turn that the car coming down one -- coming 1

down George Ryder Road has to go to go east on Route 2

28. 3

So, again, is that where we get the B and C 4

issue? I mean, just the fact that it is not a perfect 5

equilateral triangle, or whatever we call them, in 6

terms of why you rank it as B or C. 7

JOE SANCLEMENTE: We look at what the 8

capacity of the roundabout is and we look at what the 9

demand is for each of the legs, and then we come up 10

with a volume capacity to develop what that letter 11

grading is going to be, and it is below capacity. 12

BILL TUXBURY: Okay. 13

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Which operates at a very 14

good level of service, a B or a C. 15

BILL TUXBURY: When you come into the 16

roundabout, by the way, because the average speed in 17

the studies you did were twenty-nine miles an hour, 18

and what I am trying to understand is what, when you 19

come into the roundabout from the west, what are they 20

going to have to slow down to, zero? 21

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Fifteen to twenty miles 22

an hour. There would be advance warning signage 23

recommending to slow down. 24

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BILL TUXBURY: What would say the average 1

speed then through the corridor, like you were 2

measuring before? 3

JOE SANCLEMENTE: It is hard to say. Our 4

hope is that it would have some reduced effect on the 5

travel speed in the corridor. The average speed now 6

is I think under thirty miles an hour. The eighty-7

fifth was about thirty-five to thirty-eight miles an 8

hour. So, I think that we would probably see a slight 9

reduction in the current travel speeds in that 10

segment. 11

BILL TUXBURY: Fifty percent was twenty-12

nine and twenty-eight, and thirty-four was eighty-13

fifth. 14

JOE SANCLEMENTE: It was about that. 15

BILL TUXBURY: Thirty-four was the eighty-16

fifth percentile. 17

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Yes. 18

BILL TUXBURY: But again, in the 19

summertime, which is when everybody has to make their 20

business that is sitting here, economically as a 21

business, we are going to have very, very, very slow 22

traffic because, even today with the design we have 23

now, in July I bet you the speeds are even lower than 24

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the ones that you took. So, my only point is that, 1

you know, we are really going to slow down the whole 2

flow through here. 3

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Well, that's what we are 4

trying to do. Basically now it is free flow because 5

there is no reason to ever stop or yield because you 6

have the turn lane. There is no reason to ever stop 7

and that is what makes it difficult to get on the side 8

streets or from a driveway, and this will slow it down 9

and make it easier for people to perceive and react, 10

find a safe gap to get onto the roadway and make a 11

turn. 12

BILL TUXBURY: Okay. Maybe. I know where 13

you are coming from but I don't -- I am not convinced 14

that that is what is going to happen. 15

Now, my other question is, when -- you sent 16

me some information on the counts that you had for 17

pedestrians and bikers, and cars, and I -- as I 18

recollect, the counts for the pedestrians and cars 19

were very, very small as a rule, like one or two a 20

day, or maybe six or eight from the bicycle point of 21

view and, of course, the cars going through there were 22

a factor or two above that. 23

So, I come back to the question of, for 24

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nine hundred feet between the two roundabouts, we are 1

going to put two five foot shoulders in there for 2

bikers, and then they are going to have to go through 3

roundabouts, and the reading I have done says that 4

roundabouts are very unsafe for bikers, and then we 5

are going to into Route 28 out to Harwich or Route 28 6

to Downtown Chatham and there's zero shoulder for them 7

to ride on. They can take their lives in their own 8

hands if it is a -- if there is a bad driver on the 9

road or they can go on the sidewalk, to the point that 10

was made before. 11

So, I don't quite understand why you need a 12

nine hundred -- nine hundred feet of two five foot 13

lanes, if you will, when you are going to have a ten 14

foot joint use, and you have the bike path up north of 15

here. Now, that leads me into the issue of waivers, 16

Complete Street Program. 17

Question; you mentioned a waiver on the 18

truncated sidewalk by Barn Hill and I think, I don't 19

know if it is a waiver to go from a ten to eight back 20

to ten foot joint use path width. 21

JOE SANCLEMENTE: There has to be good 22

justification to get a design exception, and we feel 23

that we do have good justification for the Barn -- the 24

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the truncation of the Barn Hill sidewalk because it is 1

a scenic road. There are trees that would be 2

impacted, and we do have a land acquisition. So, it 3

would help eliminate those causes and we are doing an 4

eight foot reduction for a short section of the multi-5

use path to help minimize any further land 6

acquisition. 7

So, we are doing what we can to squeeze it 8

where we can, and I think that the on-street 9

accommodation serves a slightly different purpose than 10

the multi-use path. The multi-use path is a 11

connection which I think we had folks talk about the 12

different types of cyclists that are out there. It 13

provides that connection for the intermediate rider in 14

between those two existing paths. 15

The on-street accommodation, the goal of 16

the Complete Streets requirement is to put in those 17

missing links on the network and build a network that 18

makes sense. So, we are going to build that piece 19

with an on-street accommodation so that it meets all 20

the different users. 21

BILL TUXBURY: Well, the argument is can 22

you get a waiver to eliminate it? Have you ever had a 23

waiver granted on a Complete Streets Program? 24

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JOE SANCLEMENTE: I don't believe that we 1

have good justification to eliminate it. This is also 2

a National Highway System Transit Route Corridor. It 3

does require eight to ten foot wide shoulders. So, we 4

actually are seeking a design exception to go down to 5

the five feet. It actually requires a ten, eight to 6

ten foot shoulder. 7

BILL TUXBURY: When you go down and expand 8

this or pave the rest of the road on 28, are you going 9

to take all the trees down that you are going to have 10

to take down in order to be able to fit this in? 11

JOE SANCLEMENTE: That is our goal not to. 13

BILL TUXBURY: Then why are you doing it in 14

our place? You are going for a two lane road, you 15

know, two -- I mean from a three lane road to a two 16

lane road, and then back to a three lane road. In 17

other words, to me it seems as though using the two 18

five footers is taking away the turning lane, and the 19

turning lane could stay because again, after nine 20

hundred feet, there is no place for the guy, with the 21

backup, in a high speed bike to go. There isn't. So, 22

why spend the money and change the functionality of 23

the turning lane, which has been very successful over 24

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over the years, less accidents? I mean, the data is 1

the data. 2

The -- so, that was basically my 3

perspective, is that, you know, we should get a waiver 4

to get rid of that lane, put a one or two foot 5

shoulder in there. We have less than that now, and 6

the bikes can go on the sidewalks and the people who 7

ride on the road for three or four miles the other 8

way, it's nine hundred feet. So, nine hundred feet, 9

they can ride just as they did the last three or four 10

miles. So, I just, the rationale just doesn't seem to 11

hold water to me. 12

JOE SANCLEMENTE: The reallocation of ten 13

feet for the shoulder still would be insufficient to 14

accommodate the turn lane which is larger than a 15

typical lane. They are usually twelve to fourteen 16

feet wide, usually on the larger side of that. So, 17

simply reallocating the ten wouldn't allow us to put 18

in the two-way left turn lane. We can't fit it all in 19

the right-of-way. 20

BILL TUXBURY: Then why don't we look at an 21

option that says leave it as it is, reline the roads 22

to narrow widths. I know I have been at meetings 23

where narrow widths and sidewalks on both sides, and 24

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posting, and enforcement will get speeds down if that 1

is the major concern and, when you come in from the 2

west, instead of having the road flare out, you make 3

sure it flares in so cars coming in take their foot 4

off the gas because they don't think it is wide open. 5

That is not going to cost a lot of money 6

and I think you -- and there's other thing you can do 7

but I just don't think -- I think that that -- and 8

then we can use Chapter 90 monies to put sidewalks in. 9

Put a sidewalk on the south side. I mean, that is up 10

to the Selectmen but my point is that that is an 11

option that salvages what we have, improves it in 12

terms of the speeds that you can -- how do I say this 13

correctly, that people will inherently slow down 14

because of the width of the road and the sidewalks on 15

both sides. 16

I just, because the point I -- you know, 17

the other point that people have made, there have been 18

ten major redevelopments and buildings done since the 19

Comprehensive Plan. There have been a lot of 20

improvements in West Chatham. It is not like it is a 21

junky place. We all have occasional spots that we 22

know could be better, even downtown. So, my only 23

point is, the Town is -- the area has done well and it 24

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it just seems this is an overkill exercise. That's 1

it. (applause) 2

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: I think the 3

gentleman in the back. 4

RONALD MESERVEY: Ronald Meservey, M-e-s-e-5

r-v-e-y. Could you bring up the other rotary? Okay. 6

My property butts the Hess on the north and west 7

side. So, I am not directly involved in the project 8

but, due to the nature of my business, I have a lot of 9

truck traffic on a daily basis, large trucks. Most of 10

them come in on the entrance off of 28, which would be 11

to the far west, and some of them coming down George 12

Ryder Road come in behind the Hess Station but, 13

periodically, we have large tow trucks towing vehicles 14

in that come down 28 and have to go around the rotary 15

and come in on the back side of the Hess. So, some of 16

these tow trucks are over thirty feet long, towing 17

maybe a fire engine that is another forty feet long. 18

I am a little bit concerned about being able to make 19

that turn. Have you given that some consideration, 20

and sometimes we are towing a tractor trailer. With a 21

thirty foot wrecker towing a tractor trailer, it could 22

be fifty or sixty feet long. 23

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JOE SANCLEMENTE: Where are they coming 1

from? 2

RONALD MESERVEY: Coming down 28. 3

JOE SANCLEMENTE: From the west? 4

RONALD MESERVEY: From the west, yes. 5

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Can they enter the 6

property in from your curb cut on 28? 7

RONALD MESERVEY: See, we come in from that 8

side most of the time but sometimes we have to come in 9

from the back. 10

JOE SANCLEMENTE: But the access goes 11

through the property. Do you have to come in through 12

this connection from the west or -- 13

RONALD MESERVEY: Sometimes we have to come 14

in off of George Ryder Road because, when we bring the 15

vehicle in, I want it faced in a certain direction. 16

So, and it would be very difficult for the tow truck 17

to be able to do a 360 or a 180 on the property 18

because of so much congestion there. So, 19

periodically, we have to come in off of George Ryder 20

Road. I am just concerned about being able to make 21

that turn on the roundabout. You know, I mean, I 22

haven't, you know, I haven't taken little toys and 23

moved it around but, I mean, have you given this some 24

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thought, you know? 1

JOE SANCLEMENTE: We can certainly take a 2

look at it. 3

RONALD MESERVEY: Yeah because I am just 4

afraid that, if we go to make that turn, we are going 5

to get hung up there, and then we are going to be in a 6

worse, just like my brother said, they had one Sunday 7

in Orleans on their roundabout where the tractor 8

trailer got stuck and held up traffic for hours there, 9

you know, and I have talked to my tow truck people and 10

they said that, they question whether they are going 11

to be able to make that turn, you know, but it will be 12

inconvenient for my business to be able to have them 13

always come in off of the 28 entrance. So, if you 14

could look into that, I would appreciate. 15

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: You said it is 17

mostly tow trucks that are the size trucks. 18

RONALD MESERVEY: The tow trucks, some of 19

them could be over thirty feet long. They are very 20

large and they are tri-axle tow trucks. I don't know 21

if you are familiar with the towing companies on the 22

Cape but Buckner does most of our towing, and they 23

have rather large tow trucks but we have, you know, 24

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fire engines coming in almost daily, not towed in but 1

some of them are towed in and we have dump trucks or 2

oil trucks that are towed in. They are short but some 3

of the fire trucks are long, and a tractor trailer 4

occasionally and the tractor trailer is the one I am 5

concerned about being towed in there. 6

Like I say, when we come in off of 28, it 7

is not a problem but, if I have to have them come in 8

off of George Ryder Road from 28, I am just concerned 9

about whether they are going to be able to make that 10

bend and, also, sometimes we have them towed out and 11

sometimes they have to tow out from George Ryder onto 12

28. Are they going to be able to make that turn there 13

also? I assume that you designed it so a tractor 14

trailer can make it through there. 15

JOE SANCLEMENTE: The WB62 can make a right 16

turn from George Ryder onto 28. So, it's a pretty big 17

tractor trailer. 18

RONALD MESERVEY: Okay. 19

JOE SANCLEMENTE: The standard size is 20

usually the fifties that you see out there, but they 21

typically have a lot harder time than the -- something 22

that is pulling something. 23

RONALD MESERVEY: Right. But see, these 24

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tow trucks, the pivot point is different than it would 1

be on a tractor trailer. 2

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Well, it is usually 3

closer to the middle of the vehicle, right? Because 4

it is -- it's halfway. 5

RONALD MESERVEY: Yes, right. The pivot 6

point is -- 7

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Usually, they tend to 8

turn a little bit better, like something with a boat 9

trailer can usually get around a tighter radius. The 10

tractor trailers, they drag the back. So, I think as 11

long as the pivot point is in the middle, and it 12

depends on what the length of what it is that you are 13

pulling but you said you tow tractor trailers. 14

RONALD MESERVEY: Well, very rarely but 15

sometimes a tractor trailer might get towed in. Most 16

of the time, it would be an oil truck or a dump truck, 17

or a large fire engine. Yes and, like I say, most of 18

the time they come in off of 28, but sometimes they 19

have to come in off of George Ryder Road. It all 20

depends on how I want it dropped. 21

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Right. 22

RONALD MESERVEY: So, I just don't want to 23

have to, in the middle of some -- I have something 24

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towed in there, and have it get hung up on that 1

intersection, and having the Police Department calling 2

me. Thank you. 3

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Thanks. 4

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Thank you. 5

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Yes, ma'am. 6

Actually, the woman with the scarf. 7

GLORIA FREEMAN: Thank you. I am Gloria 8

Freeman, F-r-e-e-m-a-n, and I have a couple of 9

comments. I can't help but comment on your handout 10

and presentation regarding public outreach. It is 11

extensive and many people have attended your meetings, 12

and I believe that they have spoken but were not 13

heard. I believe that is why there were so few people 14

here tonight. 15

I also want to address a zoning issue. 16

Barn Hill at Main Street is in a GB3 district, which 17

requires, for a structure on a corner, a fifty foot 18

setback on the primary street and thirty feet on the 19

secondary street. So, if a property owner wanted to 20

move a building closer to the road, they would have to 21

go to our Zoning Board of Appeals but you are moving 22

the street closer to the building, and so, will you 23

have to go to the ZBA for a variance or a special 24

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special permit? You say no because the State is above 1

that? Is that -- 2

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Yes, it's State 3

Highway and it is our jurisdiction. I don't believe 4

it is subject to Zoning Board of Appeals. 5

GLORIA FREEMAN: Okay, thanks. That is 6

what I was afraid of. I have another question. Could 7

you tell me exactly how close the roundabout will be 8

coming to the bottom step of both the Captain Nathan 9

Harding House and the Former West Chatham Post Office? 10

You know, we look at these plans. I can't figure out 11

how close it is. We think we know but I would like to 12

know exactly how close. Your renditions make these 13

structures look so far back off the road. So, to the 14

bottom step of the Captain Nathan Harding House, 15

that's 1550, how many feet? 16

JOE SANCLEMENTE: I can't tell with this 17

but I would be happy to look at a plan with your 18

afterwards. All I do know is that the multi-use path 19

goes about ten feet into the current property. The 20

State Highway layout is actually several feet behind 21

the existing sidewalk. So, it is a few feet closer 22

but I can't give you an answer definitively right now. 23

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GLORIA FREEMAN: So, I think then it is 1

nineteen feet. I think it's nineteen feet to that 2

bottom step, approximately, and the number of feet 3

from the bottom step at what is now the Dunkin Donuts 4

building, the Former West Chatham Post Office, I guess 5

we -- I am guessing fourteen feet. 6

JOE SANCLEMENTE: I can't tell you based 7

off of this plan. 8

GLORIA FREEMAN: Okay. 9

JOE SANCLEMENTE: If you would like to look 10

at the plans after, I would be happy to look at them 11

with you. 12

GLORIA FREEMAN: And will you be able to 13

tell me then? 14

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Yes. 15

GLORIA FREEMAN: Okay, great. Thank you. 16

I will do that. So, I would also like to address the 17

same meeting held this morning that Mr. Leavitt and 18

Mr. Oppenheim mentioned at which a MassDOT 19

representative, Mr. Shrimpton, said that it is his 20

opinion that there are no structures in West Chatham 21

that could rise to the level of being eligible for the 22

National Register of Historic Places and, therefore, 23

deserve protection under the National Historic 24

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Historic Preservation Act. I think the townspeople 1

should be aware of that after so many of us have taken 2

great pride in Chatham's historic assets. 3

He said there is a slight chance that the 4

1736 House might be considered eligible but none 5

other. Not the Nathan Harding House. We take such 6

pride in these buildings and the barn, or the Former 7

West Chatham Post Office, which is now Dunkin Donuts. 8

Chatham's Historical Commission has 9

determined that each of these three buildings is 10

eligible for the National Register and had so informed 11

the State but the MassDOT representative disagrees. I 12

have to share with you that he also did not think that 13

the Mitchell River Bridge was eligible for the 14

National Register but the keeper of the National 15

Register disagreed and the Mitchell River Bridge was 16

found eligible without question. 17

So, I am just concerned how good Mr. 18

Shrimpton's opinion is and I bring this up so that 19

residents in Chatham who do have an interest in 20

historic properties and want to protect them know the 21

proposed roadway is coming approximately nineteen of 22

the Captain Nathan Harding House and approximately 23

fourteen feet of the Former West Chatham Post Office. 24

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Just picture two antique buildings right on the edge 1

of that roundabout. 2

Of course those buildings will be adversely 3

affected. Their integrity based on their ability to 4

convey significance based on location, setting, 5

feeling and association will be negatively impacted 6

and I think it is important for MassDOT to be more 7

sensitive to our historic structures and to our 8

citizens, and thank you. 9

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: I do want to give 10

one piece of information about the historic review. 11

All of our projects do go through a Section 106 12

process and, at that time, we will send our fact 13

finding to the Mass. Historic Commission, and then 14

they can either concur with us or not concur with us, 15

and that will be coming on later during the design 16

process. Anybody else? Yes, ma'am. Sorry, and then 17

I will -- 18

ROSALIE MORETTI: I was brief the first 19

time. 20

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No worries. 21

ROSALIE MORETTI: And I will be brief this 22

time. I don't see the turning lane into the post 23

office. Is that still there? 24

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JOE SANCLEMENTE: No, it's not. 1

ROSALIE MORETTI: It's not there, no 2

turning lane. 3

JOE SANCLEMENTE: We are not proposing a 4

turning lane into the post office. 5

ROSALIE MORETTI: Well, the fact is there 6

are eight hundred mail boxes used in the wintertime. 7

I don't have the number used in the summertime but, if 8

the ratio is six thousand to thirty-five thousand, you 9

figure it out. Okay? Can you do that? 10

Alright. My main reason for standing up 11

is, as far as the speed goes, traffic lights, you 12

could put one on every corner. It won't cost a penny. 13

Okay? 14

Secondly, pedestrians crossing the road, 15

white paint, a couple of buckets of white paint will 16

do it. Okay? You don't have to go through fancy 17

rigmaroles there. 18

And the third thing, what was it? Oh, as 19

far as safety goes, if the owners of property on Route 20

28 would move their bushes back so that we could see 21

coming out of any driveway or road, that we could see 22

the traffic coming in our direction, okay? We have to 23

stick the car out into the road to see beyond it. 24

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beyond it. 1

So, that doesn't have anything to do with 2

you except that that was a suggestion, and there was a 3

fourth thing. Oh, I guess it was the turning lane. 4

That is really important. Did you get my numbers? 5

Eight hundred cars. I go every day. Okay? Eight 6

hundred mailboxes. That means eight hundred cars 7

going there every day, or as many times as they do go. 8

I don't know, three times a week, four. Anyhow, one 9

day is enough for eight hundred mailboxes and more in 10

the summer. 11

SETH TAYLOR: Thank you very much. Seth 12

Taylor, T-a-y-l-o-r. I am a member of the current 13

Board of Selectmen. I have had some discussions with 14

Joe about this. I was elected in May of last year. 15

I am quite certain of a couple of things. 16

One, I am absolutely certain that we are going to get 17

some version of this plan because, after the twenty-18

five percent build-out hearing, it was abundantly 19

clear that MassDOT was so deeply enamored of this 20

project that it was going to go forward regardless of 21

what anybody had to say. 22

I am also quite certain of the fact that, 23

although a unanimous Board of Selectmen went forward 24

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with this project in 2013, that this State and this 1

Town are still committed to the idea of initiative 2

petition and the sanctity of initiative petition, and 3

I have heard a couple of my colleagues say, well, if 4

you don't like what we do, throw the bums out. Well, 5

the whole purpose of initiative petition was because 6

very likely you might approve of 99.9 percent of what 7

any elected official might want to do on your behalf 8

but that .1 percent of the time you might not and, 9

rather than throw the bums out, the initiative 10

petition process functions to make a slight adjustment 11

in the thinking of our elected officials. It is 12

almost what Presidents of the United States have 13

wanted for a long, long time, which is like a line 14

item veto. 15

I am also very certain that, although Mr. 16

SanClemente, is that correct, continues to emphasize 17

at every opportunity that it was a unanimous Board of 18

Selectmen that approved the project in 2013, that he 19

knows very well that this project, or the fundamentals 20

of this project, through initiative petition process, 21

was the subject of a special town meeting and that, 22

after an exhaustive debate on the floor of town 23

meeting, there was absolutely no mistake as to what 24

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mistake as to what was being discussed, none 1

whatsoever. 2

That whole tape could be reviewed by 3

anybody that wants to. Pro/con, the discussion was 4

Old New England. It was citizens standing up and 5

speaking before fellow citizens and asking them to 6

apply their good common sense and logic to the 7

outstanding issue at hand and, at the end of that 8

discussion, there was a vote, and the vote was in 9

opposition to this project. 10

Now, you may hear -- no, he is gone, one of 11

my more bombastic neighbors try to explain that away 12

by saying, well, it really wasn't a significant vote. 13

Well, in a democracy like the one we run here, or the 14

one that we have run here for a long, long time, the 15

best you can do is a majority vote and that hasn't 16

been honored and respected, and that is a certainty, 17

as well. 18

I can't tell you whether this project might 19

turn out to be just the grandest thing since sliced 20

white bread because one of the other things I am 21

absolutely certain of is, despite the advanced degrees 22

and the experience of all of you folks that are 23

proposing to present this to us as the next best thing 24

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thing since sliced white bread, is that you are not 1

going to know that until it is on the ground. 2

What the people in Chatham in large 3

majority know is that what exists there, which by the 4

way MassDOT's predecessor put in for us about forty 5

years ago, is working for them and the people of the 6

Town of Chatham at town meeting agreed with them. 7

I can't even engage in the relative merit 8

of this project, as I have told Joe, because I can't 9

get past the fact that the people of the Town of 10

Chatham did say, in the only process available to 11

them, that they weren't interested, that the Selectmen 12

of the Town had gone a step beyond what they wanted. 13

They said, yeah, let's take a look at this corridor. 14

Let's see what we can do about it. The people at town 15

meeting and the Comprehensive Plan said, yeah, let's 16

see what we can do to make things better but, when the 17

plan was put forward to them, it was, we don't like 18

this plan. We like some of the ideas behind it but 19

this one we don't care for, and they were basically 20

told, hey, guess what? We are going to create this as 21

a non-binding issue, and that was the advice of one 22

man, one lawyer, the Town Counsel. This was never 23

taken to court. Nobody ever went to see whether the 24

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went to see whether the Superior Court Judge would 1

look at what Town Counsel said relative to the fact 2

that that vote was perceived to be non-binding by one 3

man, Town Counsel, who since, by the way, no longer 4

works for us and, in fact, unanimously he was sent on 5

his merry way earlier this year. 6

So, I don't think I am accomplishing 7

anything but I do feel, as a matter of personal 8

integrity and responsibility to the people that 9

elected me to represent them, that I have an 10

obligation to look you folks in the eye and tell you, 11

you are going to go ahead with this project because I 12

know you are, but don't for a second try to convince 13

me that the people of Chatham find this to be in their 14

best interest. If the proponents really wanted to 15

know, they could have brought this back to town 16

meeting this spring and asked for reconsideration in 17

the form of a resolution, just to feel the pulse of 18

the people again. 19

There wasn't anybody that even thought that 20

would be a good idea because the proponents of this 21

thing didn't want it to go back to the floor of town 22

meeting for the people to talk about it again because, 23

right now, folks, this is in the hands of MassDOT. 24

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MassDOT. You have even got HSH, who was sent on his 1

merry way by an absolute super majority, in fact, a 2

unanimous vote of a Board of Selectmen, to produce 3

what has now become a State Project. 4

I hope it works. It is clear to me it is 5

going to happen. I just have a serious regret 6

regarding the process and I, quite honestly, can't 7

blame either of you because it is a political problem 8

that we had in Chatham and I told Joe earlier today, 9

you know, the last thing in the world he needs to do 10

is get involved in the politics of this. Thank you 11

for your time. I appreciate all of the efforts you 12

have spent and, Joe, you put a lot of work into this, 13

and I told you today, I respect your product. I just 14

simply don't feel that it was appropriately moved. 15

Thank you very much. (applause) 16

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Nate, did you want 17

to say something or did you want to let -- 18

NATE CABRAL-CURTIS: No, no. 19

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Okay. 20

BILL TUXBURY: I have one question, 21

clarification. How long is the construction going to 22

take? 23

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: One season, two 24

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seasons? 1

JOE SANCLEMENTE: About two seasons. We 2

are still working on the construction staging and 3

duration. 4

BILL TUXBURY: Alright. Tom thought maybe 5

one. You think this will be a two, which I tend to 6

agree with. 7

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Probably two. 8

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Well, they can't 9

work during -- between Memorial Day and Labor Day, 10

correct? So, that kind of cuts -- 11

BILL TUXBURY: It won't go to three. Say 12

no. 13

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Can't guarantee it 14

but -- 15

BILL TUXBURY: It's the businesses. 16

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Probably two. 17

BILL TUXBURY: Yes, sir again. 18

SETH TAYLOR: Just one quick, short thing. 19

I apologize. Seth Taylor. I meant to bring this up 20

previously just to correct the record because I was 21

sitting in that seat right there during the twenty-22

five percent build-out when Mr. Buckley, the assertion 23

that he made earlier, which you said never happened, 24

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happened, it absolutely, factually did happen. The 1

man that was referenced couldn't have been any ruder 2

at all, and the statement was exactly as it was 3

represented, and I have, let me tell you something 4

right now, the one thing you better not ever do is 5

look at me and tell me I am telling you a falsity. I 6

simply don't. I sat right there and I heard it myself 7

and that's all I have to say about that. I am not 8

looking for an argument or debate on this. 9

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: I just want to tell 10

you what I heard on the video. 11

SETH TAYLOR: I am not looking for debate 12

on it. I am simply telling you -- 13

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: It was -- 14

SETH TAYLOR: -- exactly what I heard and I 15

was sitting in that seat. Thank you. 16

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Okay, but I heard 17

something slightly different. I did not hear this guy 18

is a waste of time. That is not what I heard. I am 19

just saying, that is what I heard -- 20

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: But we did. 21

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: -- on the audio but 22

you did. So, that's what you heard. It was very -- 23

it was almost a whisper so it was hard to hear but 24

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that is not what I heard. I heard a different -- he 1

did say something. It was whispered but it was not 2

that particular phrase. I am just saying what I 3

heard. Okay. Mr. Buckley. 4

STEVE BUCKLEY: Just for clarification, I 5

forgot one thing, and it is not on that particular 6

issue. Would it be possible just to show a picture 7

from Complete Streets from Google, if you were to 8

Google Complete Streets? 9

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: A picture? 10

STEVE BUCKLEY: A picture of this third 11

option I was talking about, just to give people an 12

idea. They haven't seen any type of streetscape in 13

any type of public hearing. Through all of this 14

public outreach, the public has not seen anything 15

approaching a street, except from ten thousand feet 16

type of thing. So, if you were to just Google 17

Complete Streets? 18

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: If we can find 19

something quickly, we will try. 20

JOE SANCLEMENTE: What would you like me to 21

type in? 22

STEVE BUCKLEY: And Images, and scroll 23

down. I think on the right side, on the -- if you 24

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scroll down further on the right side, I believe there 1

is a -- there it is. I don't have a pointer but it is 2

right there. 3

JOE SANCLEMENTE: This one? 4

STEVE BUCKLEY: So, that just gives people 5

an idea of what we haven't been shown and that is 6

sixty feet and bike lanes, and everything. I mean, I 7

don't want to quibble about feet and so forth but the 8

idea that the islands that are around the roundabouts 9

now I know are safer than no islands, to pedestrians 10

that is, the idea that islands are a refuge, you only 11

have to cross one lane at a time. 12

So, that is what I have been frustrated in, 13

the idea that, whether this is a better one than is 14

being recommended, the fact that it never got to see 15

the light of day, never was considered by the 16

Selectmen because they were so caught up in either/or 17

that the idea of a third option never, like I said, 18

got to see the light of day, and I believe the 19

Massachusetts Design Guide says, at the concept stage, 20

you are supposed to show all the options. So, that's 21

-- I am just showing that now, just -- 22

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Yes, but this 23

doesn't have an intersection on it. 24

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STEVE BUCKLEY: Well, okay. I am just 1

saying, I didn't make this up. If I was a graphic 2

artist, I might have been able to come up but, I mean, 3

if you see the -- there is like a place for a turn 4

lane, or it says right there, turn lane. 5

So, I am just saying, the concept, 6

generally speaking and, like I said, most people it is 7

an either/or. They never got to see this, and I have 8

been to all the meetings, and I was hoping that 9

eventually, when the new -- the fourth consultant came 10

along, that finally, finally we would get to see 11

something like this, and so, I was very frustrated 12

that it didn't. So, that is what I would like to talk 13

about. 14

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: This is a Complete 15

Streets -- this is an example of Complete Streets 16

design. 17

STEVE BUCKLEY: Exactly, exactly. 18

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: As is the design 19

that was presented tonight. They are both Complete 20

Streets designs. 21

STEVE BUCKLEY: I know they are both. What 22

I am pointing out is that perhaps, perhaps, if it has 23

been compared pros and cons of this versus what was 24

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recommended, you know, just this -- it should have 1

received the same scrutiny and deserves the same 2

consideration as the one that was presented back in 3

the very -- when HSH came up with their first 4

recommendation. Thank you. 5

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Okay. Anybody else 6

want to make a comment, or have a question? That's 7

it. I guess that's it. Everybody has said what they 8

needed to say and thank you all for coming. 9

JOE SANCLEMENTE: Thank you. 10

MARIE ROSE, MODERATOR: Have a good night. 11

End of Public Information Meeting 5-5-15 +++ 12

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