8/14/2019 T5 B64 GAO Visa Docs 1 of 6 Fdr- 2-12-03 GAO Interview Re INS Legal Issues Re Visa Revocation 515

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9/11 Personal Privacy

.5Prepared by: Jay Jennings Index: Type bundle index hereDate Prepared: Feb. 12, 2003 \ DOCNumber:Type document numberhereReviewed by: Type reviewer name here , DOC Library: 799837Job Code: 320172

Record of InterviewTitle Interview with INS onVisa Revocation Legal IssuesPurpose_To discuss_\tMethod_ In-person interviewContact Place_IN S_\tDate_February11, 2

Cathy Muhletaler, IN S-GAO attorney liaison f l \: JudyMcClosHSJ; Mary Moutsos, OGC; N a n c y Finley, OGC _Comments/Remarks:

On February 11, 2003,we met with representatives from I N S ' Office of General Counsel todiscussvisa revocation and removal issues. Revocation issues included (1) instanceswhere aperson withavalid visa presents themselvesat aport of entryfor inspection,but INSdoesnot want toadmitthem for security reasons, (2) persons who presented themselves at a port of entry for inspectionwhosevisa had been revoked but were admitted because INS was not aware of the revocation, and(3) persons who entered the United Stateswith a valid visa and had their visa revoked while theywere in the country. Removalissueswere related to persons who entered the UnitedStatesandhad not departed when their visa was revoked.IN S has encountered instanceswhere it did not want to admit certain individuals who presentedthemselves for inspection at aport of entry. Inthese instances, INS has contacted theDepartmentof State and requested that the individual's visa be revoked. State would revoke thevisa; however,there were questions of legal interpretation as to w h en the revocation became effective. Accordingto Ms. Podolnyand Ms. Muhletaler, representatives from INS,th e Department of Justice and theOffice of Immigration Litigationmet todiscuss the effective date for avisa revocation. It wasagreed that INSwould prepare a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) stating that the effectivedate would be the date of the visa revocation notice. According to Ms.Muhletaler, shebelievedthat the Departmentsof Justice and Statewere inaccord on this point and that theMO U would bedrafted by March. I N S ' meeting with State did not cover issues 2 and 3 above. M s. Podolny saidthere was some case law on the point that gave broad discretion to the Department of State(seeKnoetze 634 F2d 207)A s to aperson whose visahas been revoked but theyare admitted because INS is not awareof therevocation, orwhere the revocation occurs while theyare in the countryMs.Muhletaler said weneed to talk to Ms. Sarah Kendall. IN S m ay be able to place these individualsin removalproceedings under section 237(a)(l)(A) onlyif theyare overstays because there is no specific^provision in that section that provides for removal on the grounds of visarevocation. INS may alsoIjplace analien inremoval proceedings under section 235(c) that provides for the removalofaliens

! iwho are inadmissible on security an d related grounds. However, if IN S takes such an approach it

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Prepared by: Jay JenningsDate Prepared: Feb. 12, 2003Reviewed by: Type reviewer name here

Index: Type bundle index hereDOC Number: Type document number hereDOC Library: 799837Job Code: 320172

may be required to present the evidence that warrants the alien's removal. There are concernsabout revealing such information as it may compromise intelligence gathering sources andmethods. Further, once an alien is placed in proceedings it may open a number of differentavenues of litigation, which INS would prefer to avoid.As to removing a person who enters the United States with a valid visa and has their visa revoked,the same comments about sections 237(a)(l)(A) and 235(c) apply as discussed above.Auditor Note: INS does not appear to be dealing with the visa revocation issues related to ourreview.

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Telephone Conversation with Valerie Isbell, INS, February 20, 2003I spoke with Valerie Isbell who works with the IBIS and NAILS lookout databases. Wediscussed how revocation records are transferred from CLASS to IBIS and NAILS. Ms.Isbell described how the various lookout databases inter-relate. She said that CLASSinterfaces with both IBIS and NAILS. CLASS has an automatic, real-time interface withIBIS. Tape transfers upload CLASS information into NAILS weekly.W e discussed what type of data IBIS accepts from CLASS. Sh e confirmed that IBISdoesn't accept all CLASS information. For example, INSdoesn't accept State's "p"codes(possible or quasi) because these "possible" lookouts are not always actionable for theIN S inspector at the port of entry. She said that State uses CLASS throughout the visaissuance process. For example, State can list an alien as a "possible criminal" in CLASS,and then when he applies for a visa, the consular officer can ask more questions or askthe alien to return to the consulate at a later date with more information. But at the portof entry, when the inspector only has 30seconds to decide if the person should beadmitted or not, the "p" codes are not actionable: knowing that the person is a "possible"criminal does not mean that the inspector can go out and collect more informationonthe person and may not have enough informationto deny entry. (Auditor's note: youwould think the "possible" terrorist could be sent to secondary at the very least.)Ms. Isbell said that INS database team is currently reviewing the P codes. She suggestedtalking to CLASS technicians about whichCLASS codes are fed into IBIS and NAILS andwhich are not. She can tell us about it from the INSperspective, but thought that weshould also get information from State as well.W e discussed some of the IBIS print-outs we received from Lisa Custer. I mentioned thatsome State lookout entries appeared to be updated on October 1,2002. She said that INSstarted doing NSEERS registrations on October 1 and CLASS entries were programmedto do a batch update on October 1 so that all aliens needing an NSEERS registrationwould be flagged in IBIS.I asked Ms.Isbell if she would be the appropriate person to speak with regarding anyquestions we had on interpreting the IBIS/ NAILS records. She said she could help uswith these questions. Although she will be on leave from Feb. 26 - March 4, she agreed tomeet us after that date. She also said that she has access to both NAILS and IBIS at heroffice and could therefore help us look at specific records asneeded.